00:03:16.040You got a new edition of the book out.
00:03:18.440What led you to coming out with the new edition of the book?
00:03:22.680Well, I mean, over the last, you know, 10, 15 years, digital addiction has gotten worse
00:03:28.480with social media and the way we communicate in general has led us all to be more isolated.
00:03:34.960The pandemic obviously accelerated this process greatly.
00:03:38.320People are becoming more and more isolated.
00:03:41.32030% of Americans, I think it is, are working remotely since the pandemic.
00:03:45.640And then, you know, over the past couple of years, there were so many articles coming out that I saw that were about, like, people are really recognizing that it's a health issue, that people not having face-to-face social interaction is really not good for us.
00:03:59.380You know, and the book was old enough that a lot of it needed to be updated anyway because the stories are old and I needed, you know, new examples.
00:04:26.900I mean, the mingling muscles, social muscles really did atrophy.
00:04:30.940And people, you know, unlike when I first did it, when I first wrote the book so many
00:04:35.540years ago, I knew that people had mingle phobia.
00:04:38.540You know, a lot of people had a fear of entering a room full of strangers.
00:04:42.160But within the last 10 years, people have really come up to me and said, I need your book. I don't
00:04:47.460know how to do this, especially young people. And they are aware that it's like a thirst that they
00:04:52.080have. And it's funny to me, but people are at a loss sometimes. Yeah. I mean, there's this chart
00:04:58.140I saw the other day about people interacting socially, like in person. And before the pandemic,
00:05:04.340it was at this certain level. And then it dropped during the pandemic, of course, because everyone
00:05:08.500was, you know, sheltering at home, working from home. But then even after those restrictions were
00:05:12.780lifted, it just still stayed down. Like everyone got comfortable just being by themselves, hold up
00:05:18.680in their home and they're not coming out. Yeah. It really reminds me of, there was a drought one
00:05:23.620summer in New York. And so people didn't put water on the table for a while, like when you first came
00:05:28.760to a restaurant. And then like for years afterward, even though the drought was over, they still
00:05:34.920didn't put the water out there and that's sort of what happened with with um the pandemic i mean
00:05:39.280people got used to it that got comfortable and they got really really into their devices
00:05:43.580i mean during the pandemic people started like working in their pajamas and watching a lot of
00:05:49.020great stuff that they could stream on their on their um you know on their computers and more and
00:05:54.340more you know emailing and zooming facetime and everyone just got so dependent on that and it's
00:05:59.480really easy it's very easy to do that and the hours go by and you feel like i've connected with
00:06:04.120people. I've done a lot of communicating and yet it's not feeding us the way it's like eating junk
00:06:09.320food or something instead of real food. Yeah. That digital dependency, that was something you
00:06:13.400wrote a lot about in this edition of the book. You know, we're at this place where all of our
00:06:18.020communication is now intermediated by a screen of some sort. All of it. People, most Americans
00:06:24.260spend 10 hours a day on screens, which is a lot of waking hours when it really, like if we had
00:06:30.640said that 20 years ago that would be like a science fiction movie i mean it's really a lot
00:06:34.980and people have just of course the more you do that the more you forget how to interact the other
00:06:40.500way and people don't even know sometimes what i say is that people don't realize that they actually
00:06:45.400have a need to mingle or be social face-to-face because they feel like they're getting what they
00:06:51.440need from their devices and they're not and they're not and they feel it too because i feel
00:06:55.460lonely i feel isolated i feel like i'm not connecting with people yeah they kind of don't
00:06:59.280know how to like, they really don't know how to fix that, you know? Yeah. Well, this is what your
00:07:03.300book's all about. It's about mingling. How do you define mingling? To me, mingling actually means
00:07:10.140moving around and talking to different people. So the movement about it and the variety is kind of
00:07:15.260what it connotes to me. So, you know, at a medium size or large affair or a cafe or a bar,
00:07:21.240that means talking to people for 10 minutes and then moving on. You can still stop mingling at
00:07:26.080party and have a deeper conversation. On the other hand, sometimes a 10-minute conversation
00:07:30.620can be extremely rewarding, more than people would think. They'd be surprised.
00:07:36.040All right. So mingling, it's very short, maybe a few minutes, and you're moving on to other people.
00:07:42.160So typically, you're going to mingle at events. So like a wedding or a business networking event
00:07:46.920or something like that. Right. Or out in public, sometimes you can mingle at if there's a crowd
00:07:51.560at a park or like you know you can mingle in line in line for something there are places besides
00:07:56.580private parties where you can mingle but it just means it's basically about meeting people about
00:08:01.520being open to meet new people so i think it gets like small talk gets a bad rap because people just
00:08:07.100think it's you know all about being superficial and and it's really about being open to new things
00:08:12.520well yeah i mean i think a lot of people don't mingle when they go to events there's a lot of
00:08:16.820reasons why people don't mingle but i think one of them is what you just said oh it's just small
00:08:20.960talk. It's superficial. Like, what's your response to that? I mean, I guess your response is, well,
00:08:24.500no, it just opens you up to maybe someone you have a deep conversation with. Yeah. I mean,
00:08:28.860in order to make the deep connections, first, you have to get out there and meet people. I have a
00:08:32.560lot of intimate friendships, but I also, I also do love to be out in the world interacting with
00:08:36.880strangers because you never know who you're going to meet. It opens you up to new possibilities and
00:08:42.300new things. You know, every interaction you have face to face adds to the emotional tapestry of
00:08:48.620your life. Yeah. What are some other benefits of mingling, you think? You know, you get energy
00:08:53.340from people. You know, when I, I mean, I know it's kind of what an extrovert would say, but I think
00:08:57.960it's true of everyone that when you go to some place where you're interacting with people
00:09:02.680face-to-face and it's not just, you know, your best friend, it makes you high. I mean, you get
00:09:07.800energy from the exchange with other people. I think that human beings need this. They need to
00:09:13.640be in community with other people and not just their spouse and their two best friends.
00:09:19.240Yeah. People often make it out like introverts don't need as much socializing or get as much
00:09:24.820out of it. But studies show that while introverts have more pre-party dread, like,
00:09:31.000oh, I don't want to go to this thing. Once they're there, introverts enjoy socializing
00:09:35.460just as much as extroverts. And both introverts and extroverts get tired after social events.
00:09:40.920introverts just might need a little more solitary recovery that's true for me i'm i'm an introvert
00:09:46.620i mean i'd say i'm an introvert i don't think i am i mean i'm an ambivert i do like being around
00:09:51.800people and interacting because i come back i'm feeling like really good afterwards but i do
00:09:56.700like to spend time by myself and kind of decompress after yeah i mean i think most people are like
00:10:02.460that are a combination of of the two but i mean some people say say small talk is superficial but
00:10:09.240it's also like playing. Once you, if you start doing it more, it can just be like a fun, it's
00:10:14.920like any game, it's like the tennis game or, you know, some game that you play with other people.
00:10:19.280It's a fun thing. Yeah. Mingling, you just can just do it for the sake of itself. I mean,
00:10:23.840some people think, well, I got to mingle so I can meet a potential romantic partner or, you know,
00:10:28.220make a new business contact. And that can happen with mingling. But also you're just saying just
00:10:32.660mingle because it's fun. Yeah, actually, the greatest success in mingling is if you put all
00:10:38.040those other goals second. Your first goal should be to have a good time and to enjoy meeting new
00:10:44.260people and see it as an adventure. It's kind of like people should think about it as like when
00:10:48.680they're traveling. When you're traveling to a new country or a new city, you're interested to see
00:10:53.900things, you want to experience new things. And that's kind of should be your attitude when you're
00:10:58.180faced with any kind of social gathering where you don't already know everybody well.
00:11:02.680Yeah. I like the comparison you made to travel. You call it social travel. So other people are a realm of the unknown and it's fun to explore the unknown. And then also you talk about too, I mean, one of the benefits of mingling and even just talking to strangers, people you don't know, is if you're feeling lonely, it can help.
00:11:22.520We had a guest on the podcast a while back ago, Jillian Sandstrom.
00:11:26.700She's a professor of social psychology.
00:11:28.860And she talked about how talking to strangers, just very briefly, can really make you feel better just doing that.
00:11:39.500I've experienced this all day because I live in New York City.
00:11:42.960So I actually am lucky enough to be able to talk to strangers because when you're waiting at the bus stop, at least me, I always talk to people when I'm waiting on the bus stop.
00:11:51.620And I can be in a bad mood or a little bit blue, and I can have a five-minute exchange with someone that just kind of buoys me up.
00:11:58.680You know, the sad thing is that 40% of adults will go for three days or more without a face-to-face conversation.
00:12:05.780And again, humans were not meant to be like that.
00:27:35.400Yeah. I mean, listen, asking questions about the other person is good. How do you know the host? That's always a good one, unless that was your opening line. But also, I always say observations are a good way to go. So you're in the group and you just look around the room and you say, oh my God, I can't believe how much food there is. Or I can't believe how many people are in this room. I can't believe how noisy it is in here. I can't believe I never knew this bar was here before.
00:28:01.240or this is the coolest cafe ever, or this reminds me of a cafe that I knew when I lived in Chicago.
00:28:07.600So making an observation is good. And the thing about asking questions, which is a good thing to
00:28:12.540do after you're in, asking questions of other people is good. But when you ask people questions,
00:28:19.020you also have to give information about you so that it helps enrich the exchange. So for example,
00:28:25.320if you say, how do you know the host? When they answer, even if they don't ask you how you know
00:28:30.660the host, you say it anyway. So you say, Oh, that's so interesting. I know the host because
00:28:34.680of blah, blah, blah. And that creates a more of a back and forth. A good conversation should always
00:28:40.120be like a tennis match, you know, back and forth. Yeah, I agree with that. It feels like a game of
00:28:45.220catch. I like asking questions, maybe in part because I do that for a living. Right. But I've
00:28:51.080noticed that a lot of people, though, aren't really good at it. Like most people don't know
00:28:56.800how to ask questions. I'll ask someone questions for half an hour and they don't ask anything in
00:29:02.960return. And so I have to be like, okay, I asked something, they say something, and then I have to
00:29:08.140try to inject a little bit about myself into the conversation. I know. That's why you have to be
00:29:13.160ready with when you ask a question, the answer, then you just have to start giving them information
00:29:17.500as if they've asked you a question. And that way it creates the back and forth that you want. And
00:29:21.720then after you've talked well, then you ask them another question. So it's not you just talking.
00:29:25.720So that's a good thing. It takes a little practice, but that's a good thing. It was so funny. One time I got interviewed by Steve Inskeep on NPR, and he was very surprised when I told him that because we were practicing at a party, that we were doing a little practice thing. And he said, what am I doing wrong? And I said, well, you interview people for a living. So all you're doing is asking them questions. You need to also give back.
00:29:47.580Right. And you don't want to make it feel like you're interrogating people, like it's an FBI interrogation.
00:29:52.700right it puts people more at ease if they don't always have to be you know the one giving
00:29:57.000information yeah but people do like getting asked questions yeah you have to show you're interested
00:30:01.740in them there's no question too much of the other you know if just talking about yourself is not
00:30:06.240good either and then also during while you got this conversation going you're keeping things
00:30:10.660light so when if you're making observations you're keeping it nice and light talking about the weather
00:30:15.400the food yeah i mean like you know it's like light doesn't necessarily mean superficial so you know
00:30:21.060even though you're talking about something like, I don't know,
00:30:23.820the color of like a painting on the wall,
00:30:25.980it still can be of interesting and engaging conversation.
00:30:50.420How do you navigate mingling with that?
00:30:52.640Well, there's a whole chapter on this in the new edition because I think it's so necessary now.0.89
00:30:57.900We're living, as you say, we're living in what I call the powder keg era.
00:31:01.480You know, no matter where you are, you step on a mine.
00:31:04.360And, you know, no matter how strongly you feel about anything or, you know, what side you're on, you don't want to get into a fight at your cousin's wedding reception.
00:31:12.920You know, like it's just there's a time and a place for that.
00:31:15.560And most of these social situations, you just don't want to be in a fight.
00:31:19.540One of the techniques I describe that people can use is something I call testing for friend,
00:31:25.840foe, or fanatic. So there are lines in the book. And as you pointed out, my book is very practical.
00:31:30.920It sounds a little nerdy, but I have very practical advice in here.
00:31:33.860Those sample lines for testing for friend, foe, or fanatic are like, for example, you say to
00:31:39.060somebody, did you read the New York Times today? Now, if you're talking to a fanatic who's on the
00:31:45.480right side of things, they might say something like, I never touched that rag or I never read
00:31:50.360that rag. Okay. So right away, you know, like where you stand, there's a lot of medium ways
00:31:55.300to answer that question. But if you have a violent reaction, then you know, okay, we can't talk
00:31:59.360politics. You also, you don't only want to talk to friends. In other words, a foe, quote unquote,
00:32:05.440somebody on the opposite side of politics from you can be fine to talk to as long as they're not
00:32:10.300fanatical about it, which means that they immediately get angry. Fanatics have like an
00:32:14.940angry line going in their head on both sides. And so the minute you touch the wire, they're off.
00:32:20.660And that's so fun at a party. So I have ways to get around that. And the other thing I tell people
00:32:25.800is to try to stay focused on personal experiences rather than ideas. For example, if someone brings
00:32:32.180up recent extreme weather, you can talk about the famous snowstorm from your childhood or something
00:32:38.480instead of climate change yeah so mingling it requires you to jump from one group to another
00:32:45.000one person another it's not like you just stop and having a 20 minute conversation i've had this
00:32:50.360issue happen to me when i've gone to events where you know i'm mingling and then somehow
00:32:54.560this person just gloms on to me and they just keep going on and on i'm like i gotta get away
00:33:00.360from this person not because like they're annoying or anything it's just like well i want to talk to
00:33:04.960other people. So how do you escape someone who just won't let you escape? Yeah, there are 12
00:33:11.640exit maneuvers in the book because this is a major, as I said, one of the reasons people don't
00:33:16.720like to go to parties is they are afraid of this particular thing. The easiest one is the buffet
00:33:22.180bye-bye and other handy excuses, which is where you just say, I've got to go get a drink. But
00:33:27.680people will follow you. Sometimes people will follow you to that. So the best one for that is
00:33:32.080is called the sellout, which is to say, excuse me, I have to make a phone call. And because it's not
00:33:38.000polite to make a phone call at the party, they know that you have to be alone for that. And then
00:33:42.860you have to actually go somewhere for a second. And then when you come back into the fray,
00:33:47.060you go to someone else. Oh, this is an interesting point. So one point you make throughout the book
00:33:51.280is that good mingling requires a bit of white lies, a bit of pro-social deception, we'll call
00:33:58.920of that. Yes, that is one of the five, you know, survival laws of mingling, which is that it's okay
00:34:03.920to tell a lie. I mean, this is not about lying on your taxes or lying about, you know, cheating on
00:34:09.340your wife. This is just white lying, which is a really important part of, you know, our social1.00
00:34:15.220of society, societal rules that some people have forgotten, because everybody wants to be their0.89
00:34:20.340authentic selves. But it's about saving people's feelings. It's partly about what you want to do.
00:34:25.020but it's a lot about not hurting other people's feelings