The Auron MacIntyre Show - No One Fights for a Country That's Replacing Them ｜ Guest： Christian Heiens ｜ 9⧸23⧸26

00:00:00.000 hey everybody how's it going thanks for joining me this afternoon i've got a great stream with

00:00:12.680 a great guest that i think you're really going to enjoy before we begin today i just want to

00:00:16.820 remind you that one of the ways we keep the lights on around here is of course subscriptions to blaze

00:00:21.420 tv so if you want to support this show and everything we're doing and you want to get

00:00:25.280 access to all your favorite blaze tv hosts head over to blaze tv.com slash oren to get $20 off

00:00:31.080 your subscription today that's blaze tv.com slash oren to get $20 off today well guys i think i've

00:00:39.240 told you about a million times now that the question that was going to be confronting us

00:00:43.560 for the next 20 or 30 years is who are we what is an american what does it mean to be an american

00:00:50.040 what is this identity that we have surrounded ourselves with and obviously this has blown up

00:00:56.800 in many different ways we saw the picture with beau french and everything that happened after

00:01:01.380 the republican party lost their mind because he noticed that a lot of the people in the stands

00:01:05.880 didn't seem to come from texas originally another person has recently stepped up and made a twitter

00:01:11.780 post that uh kind of blew up this debate again christian hines thank you so much for coming on

00:01:16.220 man. Thanks for having me on, Oren. Absolutely. So before we dive into the post heard around the

00:01:22.700 world on this one, I wanted perhaps for you to introduce yourself because a lot of people might

00:01:27.780 not be familiar with you and your work. Sure. So I'm a poster on X, but more importantly, I'm

00:01:35.240 a dedicated patriot, a long time working in electoral politics on the right. I've been

00:01:41.460 doing it basically my entire life. A longtime friend of Nick Freitas, who's another contributor

00:01:45.900 to the blaze and he and i do a podcast together every single week multiple times a week i should

00:01:51.300 say um so yeah that's basically what i do i didn't expect myself to end up becoming a content creator

00:01:56.660 but i guess i do it on the side in between doing electoral work mostly yeah i definitely hear uh

00:02:03.080 not expecting to end up in this particular situation but nonetheless you're doing a great

00:02:07.260 job by myself agreeing with a lot of what you're saying out there and recently you made a post that

00:02:13.060 kind of inflamed all the classic actors in this a lot of the people who have been screaming at

00:02:19.140 the republican party about the dangers of the woke right and the post-liberal right and the

00:02:23.720 pagans are coming the pagans are coming uh one of the things that you talked about in that post was

00:02:29.880 that we were entering an age of identity and it's funny because i know exactly why your post

00:02:37.240 triggered people it was simply that word identity i've said the same thing same thing a thousand

00:02:41.760 times, right? When we're asking the question of what is an American, who are we? Those are

00:02:45.980 questions of identity. And they're now coming to dominate our discussion. But this threw all the

00:02:51.240 usual actors into, you know, just this apoplectic, they couldn't control themselves in the slightest.

00:02:56.120 And they kept coming after you over and over again. I want to get into some of the nuance of

00:03:00.760 that. But at the beginning, can you just explain what you meant by we're heading into an age of

00:03:04.620 identity? Sure. So basically, I was rehashing Samuel Huntington's argument from the 1990s.

00:03:12.380 He wrote a book around the time that I was born called Clash of Civilizations.

00:03:16.880 And he predicted that with the end of the Cold War and the onset of the post-Cold War environment,

00:03:22.220 there was a lot of people that thought that we would be entering into the end of history,

00:03:25.960 right? The Francis Fukuyama thesis that had came out around the same time that he wrote this book.

00:03:31.420 And Huntington basically argued, no, we're not going to be entering into the end of history.

00:03:35.620 If anything, it's going to be a continuation of history.

00:03:37.880 Instead of ideologies, capitalism versus communism or totalitarianism versus democracy,

00:03:44.120 you're going to get a clash of civilizations, a clash of, dare I say, identities.

00:03:49.020 And that was his general thesis of what would happen as the 21st century unfolded.

00:03:54.000 You know, you fast forward 25, 30 years later, and it seems pretty obvious that, you know,

00:03:58.840 most people, if you were to ask them, especially in a country like ours in the United States,

00:04:03.240 they're actually not that interested in what should the top marginal tax rate be or, you know,

00:04:08.700 how do we fix the potholes more efficiently on the road system? They're really kind of asking

00:04:12.880 a question of, are you on my side? Are you with me or are you with the other team? That's a question

00:04:19.640 of identity politics, if you think about it. This is why I said that we're entering into an age of

00:04:24.460 identity. You could basically summarize it as all politics is identity politics. The question is,

00:04:29.680 who's the identity? Who is the we when you say we must do something? So that was what I was trying

00:04:35.060 to get out there. Yeah. And obviously, when conservatives have been opposing wokeness,

00:04:41.780 opposing leftism, they use the phrase identity politics as this pure negative, right? Well,

00:04:48.120 if you've noticed identity, if you're talking about your identity, then that's identity politics

00:04:53.100 And that's leftism. Therefore, any discussion about American identity has to be itself leftist in nature. And as you point out, it's not a question of will we have identity? We all have identities. It's inescapable. It's literally what makes us who we are. It's what binds us together. I am loyal to my family because I was born to a particular set of parents. That is my identity. I am not loyal to other parents who are not mine.

00:05:20.500 had I been born to them, I would be loyal to them instead. These are things that I cannot define

00:05:25.400 about myself. They are not freely chosen bonds. They are those that are imposed on me by nature,

00:05:31.300 by my existence. They are ontologically true. They are things that I cannot escape. My very

00:05:37.420 being is tied to these truths. And so if I'm going to discuss anything about being an American,

00:05:45.020 I have to start asking, are there any parts that are unchosen bonds? Is everything about an American

00:05:52.080 just transient or is it something more inherent? And when we have that discussion, this is where

00:05:57.760 people freak out because then we know that we might be excluding people from the American

00:06:03.200 identity because all identities are by definition exclusionary. We have to define things by what

00:06:09.740 they are not as much as we have to define them by what they are. And so I think this is where

00:06:14.520 the panic sets in because for so long conservatives were told that the the right wing belief the

00:06:20.520 conservative belief was that we had no real identity that we were this floating set of

00:06:25.240 propositions uh something that was written down on a piece of paper somewhere and that is what

00:06:29.780 makes us in america the document came first america came second and you know kind of this

00:06:35.120 order of operations is what made us a great nation and so if we try to invert it in any way

00:06:39.580 We recognize the holistic understanding of America as a real country, a real people prior to or apart from a document somewhere.

00:06:48.660 Therefore, we are throwing away the Constitution. We're violating all of our principles.

00:06:54.140 And ultimately, I think that the witch hunt that has been going on currently from kind of establishment conservatives or people who call themselves classical liberal,

00:07:02.780 even though they hate literally everything classical liberals believe uh when when we see

00:07:06.520 this happening i think it's really is that panic when people you know recognize that they don't

00:07:12.220 have an identity apart from the ideology that has been foisted upon them they got their politics

00:07:16.980 from sean annity and if it turns out that anything else is true like they literally just don't seem

00:07:21.440 to be able to function yeah i mean i brought this up when when that tweet that you were talking

00:07:26.780 about blew up. It's almost as if there's this segment of the right in America that will argue,

00:07:33.620 no, you know, you can't organize yourself politically around an identity. That's leftism.

00:07:39.620 But if you press them hard enough, they will actually finally admit that you can.

00:07:43.640 Because look, I mean, at the end of the day, politics is about group endeavors, right? Like

00:07:47.320 all politics is about competing groups and interests. You know, it doesn't matter what

00:07:51.840 the process is. You know, you could fight a war or you could have an election. It's still going to

00:07:55.860 be competition between groups. And so if you press them hard enough, they will say, okay, yes,

00:08:01.340 semantically, all politics is identity politics, if you want to, you know, define identity as simply

00:08:08.180 belonging to a group. But then they will take the issue of saying, but the only identities that are

00:08:14.360 ever allowed to assert themselves politically, in an organized manner, are ones that are freely

00:08:20.120 chosen, right? They're ideological bonds. But that immediately kind of runs into a problem,

00:08:26.400 right? Because, okay, by what right do you have to say that, for example, women should be allowed

00:08:32.100 to come together and say, no, we don't want men in our locker rooms or our bathrooms or competing

00:08:37.400 on our sports teams, right? The distinction between male and female is definitely not a

00:08:42.220 freely chosen identity, no matter what the transgenderism crowd likes to say. But the

00:08:47.760 Conservative has basically argued themselves into a position where transgenderism is inevitable, 1.00

00:08:53.600 right? Because you've said you're not allowed to organize yourself around an identity that isn't

00:08:58.760 freely chosen. Well, the difference between sexes isn't freely chosen, right? So what you've

00:09:04.800 basically said is that, I mean, this is why I told you before we started filming, this kind of

00:09:09.900 movement towards pure civic nationalism, pure propositional nation, the idea that the Constitution

00:09:15.460 is what gives identity to the Americans, rather than that the Americans came together to forge

00:09:20.440 a constitution to codify things that they had already well established before him.

00:09:25.680 All of this leads to what I like to call transgenderism for the right, right? It's

00:09:31.100 this idea that any thick inherited identity, the family, the church, the nation, all of these

00:09:38.840 things have been effectively dissolved by what you called these classical liberals who, let's be

00:09:45.020 totally honest. I mean, that's kind of the second thing here. You can actually quote the founding

00:09:49.800 fathers to these people, and they will turn around and say, these are post-liberal, woke, right,

00:09:56.220 integralist, socialist, fascist authoritarians. Because at the end of the day, these classical

00:10:02.380 liberals are not actually trying to preserve actual classical liberalism. What they're trying

00:10:06.660 to preserve is really post-60s progressivism, which is a form of acid for civilization that

00:10:12.200 dissolves the very things that, you know, conservatives would normally just kind of

00:10:15.860 take for granted. Yeah, this has been a fun thing to watch, right? Like, as you say, the right has

00:10:23.800 a similar problem to the left, the left can't identify what a woman is, the right can't identify

00:10:28.040 what an American is. And so we have this question of, okay, well, if just anyone believes hard

00:10:34.200 enough that they're an American, then they're an American. Okay, does that work for being a woman

00:10:38.940 too like right like this seems like a very obvious comparison but they blow right past it and as you

00:10:44.280 said you and several other posters on twitter have made a game of basically taking joel berry and

00:10:50.400 eric erickson and insurrection barbie and james lindsey and all these people and just quoting

00:10:55.820 the founders to them and having them freak out now i've watched joel berry call the founders

00:11:01.460 racist multiple times like dave green trapped him in this you know over a year ago at this point

00:11:07.160 he can't he can't escape it right these people claim the heritage of the founding they say we

00:11:14.320 are the true americans we believe in the true principles of america we are standing firm on

00:11:18.300 the traditions and the faith and the beliefs of americans but they aren't in the slightest like

00:11:22.820 they hate those beliefs it's not just that they don't you know they don't agree with them they

00:11:27.480 actively think that these are the statements of an enemy even though it's literally thomas

00:11:31.820 Jefferson and John Jay and John Adams and all of these people who were literally responsible for

00:11:37.300 writing the very document they think they're referencing. And so part of this is just in

00:11:41.680 extreme ignorance. All of these people, and it's truly amazing, the number of people who became

00:11:45.960 public political commentators spent years and years, some cases decades, telling people on the

00:11:52.760 right, telling conservatives what to think. And they've just never read the Federalist Papers.

00:11:56.280 they've never read a letter from any of the founders i mean i was a public high school

00:12:01.480 teacher and apparently i had read more than most of these people when it came to the actual founding

00:12:07.860 and what these people believe and so when they run around calling themselves classical liberals when

00:12:11.760 they claim a tradition that they have no reverence for that they're completely cut off them it really

00:12:18.200 is the most trans thing you can think of right it really is the trans ideology just manifests

00:12:24.740 historically because these people have no connection they have no belief in this they

00:12:28.980 have no right to claim it but they just do it because they think it gives them power they think

00:12:33.480 it gives them authority because they and i think it's hard for me to know i guess maybe i'll i'll

00:12:38.720 ask you this question because people are always asking me and i think it varies from person to

00:12:43.160 person but is this ignorance or is this sheer malice because it's hard to believe that some

00:12:50.440 these people have been public life for decades and have just never encountered any of this stuff

00:12:54.900 but at the same time they're just so willing to charge back into this windmill over and over and

00:13:00.540 over again that i really do believe like they think they believe in christianity they think

00:13:06.000 they believe in the founding what they really believe in is the civil rights act and the post

00:13:09.740 war consensus like that's literally what they worship and they have a religious zeal like they

00:13:15.040 are willing to fight and die on behalf of basically this illusion of the post-war consensus i mean

00:13:22.440 it's a really good question or i think that it probably varies person to person i definitely

00:13:27.940 like i do genuinely think that there are some people out there in this camp that we're talking

00:13:32.020 about that might not have necessarily nefarious intentions and they just truly might not have

00:13:38.200 you know, say, read the founders or really read much of anything before, say, 1945, certainly 1965.

00:13:47.200 But there definitely is a chunk of people out there that, let's be honest, they want to kind

00:13:51.840 of halt the avalanche halfway down the slope, right? The James Lindsays of the world who were

00:13:57.040 perfectly fine voting for Democrats right up until what, like 2016? And now they want to come in. I

00:14:02.980 mean, this is why I brought this up in the introduction. Like, I've worked in Republican

00:14:05.920 in electoral politics on both the professional and volunteer side my entire adult life,

00:14:11.400 technically before I could even legally start voting. I have basically voted for the most

00:14:16.060 right-wing candidate in every election since I was 17. In Virginia, you can vote in the primary

00:14:21.520 when you're 17. And then somebody like James Lindsay comes along, who was actively opposed

00:14:27.860 to me for the vast majority of those years. And then he walks into the right and basically tells

00:14:33.040 them, no, you're not real conservatives. You're not true men of the right. I am the one who voted

00:14:38.300 for Barack Obama twice and voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016. I now get to decide what it

00:14:43.300 means to be a conservative. And it just turns out that what it means to be a conservative in the

00:14:47.240 American tradition is to believe in everything that happened after 1965. That is effectively

00:14:53.520 what James Lindsay's position is. And I don't want to really give him credit at this point,

00:14:59.780 But I will be a little bit more lenient with some of these other figures.

00:15:03.060 But it is definitely true that there is a chunk of these people who, because there's

00:15:07.800 this ratchet effect that you've talked about on so many of your own episodes, Zoram, a

00:15:12.520 lot of these people who are upset that the revolution has gone too far, they've migrated

00:15:17.120 over to the right and they've tried to convert the right into a mechanism to halt the ratchet

00:15:22.600 effect at the final ratchet, right?

00:15:24.980 Right up until the moment that they were comfortable.

00:15:27.080 They might not be in favor of transgenderism, but they were in favor of third wave feminism, right? They might not be in favor of, say, the mass migration of Muslims to the United States, but they were totally fine with replacement migration from the rest of the third world, right? 0.63

00:15:44.420 They might not have been okay with, say, the Biden administration's handling of, say, COVID or the administrative state, but they were totally fine with the Obama administrative state or the Bush administrative state or the Clinton administrative state. 0.69

00:15:57.000 You could just go down the list.

00:15:58.680 Those people, I think, have definitely more nefarious intentions, and they will invoke

00:16:04.360 the founding fathers in order to defend a worldview and a political order that had definitely

00:16:10.980 been created well into the mid-20th century, that has almost no connection to what was

00:16:16.740 going on in, say, Philadelphia in 1787.

00:16:19.480 At least that's my position on it.

00:16:21.240 I think that there's some nuance, but it is absolutely worth saying that a lot of these

00:16:27.720 people that call themselves classical liberals i mean we saw it right if you show them the words

00:16:33.040 of the founding fathers they just straight up say nope this is basically no different from

00:16:37.240 fascist italy right or authoritarian you know right-wing authoritarianism or who was there

00:16:41.920 was this one guy from the cato institute that said that this was right-wing socialism i don't

00:16:46.720 know if you saw that tweet it was from i think nick solheim yeah yeah no the cato institute is

00:16:52.140 always good for mining uh ridiculous responses but you know to be fair i understand the james

00:16:58.760 lindsey's and you know the dave rubens right like they were on the left they came over they didn't 0.98

00:17:04.540 like the woke stuff but they were you know one guy's gay married buying kids the other one is

00:17:08.860 you know obviously like was phone banking for obama like we know where these people came from

00:17:13.700 i i you know they're they're the idea that they could run the movement that they should be able

00:17:18.180 to enforce barriers in the movement is ridiculous but i have a theory of mind for them right like i

00:17:22.800 understand where they're coming from the more fascinating part for me really is the guys like

00:17:27.840 joel berry or eric erickson or you know the guys who have been part of the movement have been like

00:17:33.680 you know have been as active in many cases in right-wing politics or even more than you have

00:17:39.860 you know so the the question there is how did they not know that they don't believe anything

00:17:46.800 the founders believe how do you fight inside i i get how james lindsey and dave rubin don't

00:17:52.060 understand it like a comedian and a failed mathematician from the left i get how they

00:17:56.740 don't understand it right but like how how do people who have been active who who have guest

00:18:02.220 hosted for rush limbaugh for years how did they not understand the basics of american identity

00:18:08.800 and what the founders actually believe well i mean i think in in their case they're kind of um

00:18:15.040 buying into, you know, Karl Popper's vision for society, if you think about it, right? I mean,

00:18:19.320 it's, and not just Karl Popper. I mean, in some respects, they've bought into the modern form of

00:18:24.660 liberalism. Like liberalism is such like a weaselly word. I mean, Aaron, you and I are

00:18:29.160 mutuals on X. So we've seen each other's tweets quite a lot. Like I talk quite a lot about

00:18:33.500 liberalism and I'm pretty critical of it, but I'm pretty critical of it because of what it has

00:18:39.220 become. I think it's important to understand the origins of liberalism and how it fit into a

00:18:45.560 civilization rather than serving as the acid for that civilization for a long period of time.

00:18:51.620 So liberalism is say the founders understood it was the product of a flourishing civilization of

00:18:58.600 Englishmen. As Carl Benjamin, who you previously had on your show at one point said, liberalism

00:19:04.600 is Sharia law for the English, right? It is the natural way of life than an Englishman or an

00:19:10.180 American for that matter. We could say that libertarianism, lowercase L libertarianism,

00:19:15.200 is the American cousin word for English liberalism. But that is a product of a particular

00:19:21.740 people over time. It's almost like the cultural byproduct of a people living their particular

00:19:26.960 life. But when you make it an ideology rather than an inherited way of life, you end up getting,

00:19:34.280 again, almost like the Karl Popper conception of it, right? The open society or the John

00:19:38.580 Rawlsian version of comprehensive liberalism. This is something that definitely went mainstream

00:19:44.600 after 1945 and certainly after the 1960s. And I think a lot of these more mainstream conservative

00:19:50.780 types that they've never really voted Democrat, but they were kind of running the right for a

00:19:56.100 generation, certainly the generation before I was born or grew up. I think a lot of those guys

00:20:01.340 bought into liberalism as an ideology rather than as a positive byproduct of a flourishing

00:20:08.600 civilization that knows who it is and is rooted in a tradition and identity and a history that

00:20:15.520 can't be dissolved by the liberalism because the liberalism is simply a byproduct of that people.

00:20:21.100 Those are two radically different conceptions of liberalism. And that former one, the inherited

00:20:26.440 one really hasn't been around with us for probably 80 years now, maybe close to 100.

00:20:33.240 The more modern form of liberalism is, I think, the one that most modern American conservatives

00:20:37.860 have kind of grew up in and just thought, oh, yeah, this is what the Founding Fathers believed.

00:20:41.860 The Founding Father, didn't you know, Oren, that the Founding Fathers staged a revolution?

00:20:45.680 It's that way we would have no way to say no to the drug addict that wants to shoot

00:20:49.540 up heroin on the street corners in San Francisco.

00:20:51.760 show. We have created this almost worldview that lacks the ability to ever say no to socially

00:20:59.780 destructive behaviors because, well, the moment that you do, you're infringing upon the harm

00:21:04.220 principle. And that is the type of stuff that I think the founders would definitely scoff at.

00:21:09.680 But we've kind of forgotten about it because, I mean, like you said, a lot of these people just

00:21:12.820 clearly haven't even read them. Well, and it's truly amazing because, of course, I've posed this

00:21:18.340 question a thousand times and no one has ever i think i think at some point uh well i'll put the

00:21:25.820 question forward first you know i've said repeatedly if the propositional nation is actually how you

00:21:31.520 understand your identity if it's just about what you believe just the the ideology that you put

00:21:37.500 forward then one you're creating what has to be the most fascist state of all time because then

00:21:44.420 the identity is only about whether or not you agree with the central ideology put forward by

00:21:50.660 the government literally we need a constant loyalty check to make sure hey you still believe

00:21:55.940 in the proposition right and if the answer is no then we have to load you in the catapult and you

00:22:00.360 know fire you away like that that's that's a constant ideological surveillance mechanism in

00:22:05.800 order to monitor your faithfulness to the party so we can decide whether or not you belong inside

00:22:10.420 america like that's really what they are ultimately suggesting at the end of the day when they say we

00:22:16.100 can have a propositional nation unless of course you're saying people don't have to believe in the

00:22:20.700 proposition to be american which of course is exactly what they actually believe and so now

00:22:26.220 you have a scenario where we have a propositional nation in which no one is compelled to believe in

00:22:30.840 the proposition no one is required to believe in the proposition they can abandon it at any moment

00:22:35.560 and if they do well there's just nothing you can do because now they're inside the country and

00:22:39.660 apparently the proposition didn't make them americans something else made them americans

00:22:43.840 that you're not willing to actually discuss because if we had a scenario where we had a

00:22:48.360 real propositional nation you simply could not enforce it and i think i saw finally after me

00:22:53.580 asking this a thousand times uh someone sent me a tweet of joel barry saying well yeah obviously

00:22:58.300 we can't deport people who are already here if they disagree with the proposition it's like oh

00:23:02.820 okay so you're literally admitting it's impossible to have a propositional nation it's amazing that

00:23:09.100 the kind of cognitive dissonance never really triggers anything with these people, but I see

00:23:13.220 it over and over again. Yeah, it's the whole like, oh, America's an idea. Okay, so can we at least

00:23:18.140 deport the people that openly reject it? You know, Hasan Piker, can we deport him? He clearly rejects

00:23:23.260 the idea. No, because it'd be a betrayal of the ideal. Well, then you've just created the

00:23:29.420 circumstances through which you are guaranteed to lose inevitably. It might take time, but you will

00:23:34.020 lose inevitably. Like, for example, the DSA is a perfect example of this, actually. If you go into,

00:23:40.980 Nick and I talked about this recently, if you go into the DSA and you look at the various caucuses

00:23:44.980 that make up the DSA, it's something about a majority of them are avowed Marxists, not

00:23:49.220 democratic socialists, despite the name actual Marxists, like, you know, CCP style, Maoist style,

00:23:55.120 Stalinist, Trotsky, all of that, right? They will say stuff like, we are fighting to overthrow the

00:24:01.140 constitution. We are fighting to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat, their own words.

00:24:05.920 I'm not putting words in their mouth. And yet these classical liberal types, right? The,

00:24:12.400 the kind of establishment conservatives that you're bringing up here, and not even just the

00:24:15.840 James Lindsay types, let's be honest. This includes the Joel Berry types. This includes

00:24:19.140 the Eric Erickson's. These guys will go out there and they will run hit pieces on guys on the right

00:24:25.520 like me, like you, um, like many of the individuals that we were talking about earlier that kind of

00:24:30.840 have been doing this thing of quoting the founders to them, they will try to get these

00:24:34.980 guys canceled. They will call them woke right. They'll call them fascist. They'll call them

00:24:38.900 authoritarian or, you know, right-wing socialist, whatever it is. They'll come up with, you know,

00:24:43.440 the bad words to describe these people. They'll run hit pieces on them. They will openly try to

00:24:48.420 get them fired. I've had many of these people like tag Nick Freitas in tweets as if like he's

00:24:53.600 going to fight. Like, first off, Nick and I have been friends since I was in high school. I've

00:24:57.600 known him for like 14 years now. He's not going to like fire me or break up a friendship with me

00:25:01.480 because some random guy on the internet doesn't like what I'm tweeting about. But they will

00:25:05.800 nonetheless try to gatekeep the rights is what I'm trying to get across. They will fight ruthlessly

00:25:12.540 to basically destroy people to the right of themselves. And then they will turn around and

00:25:19.380 say, we need to guarantee the constitutional rights for avowed Marxists to subvert this

00:25:25.140 country, take it over and turn it into something that is the complete antithesis of what we claim

00:25:31.900 to believe and certainly what the founders would have believed in. This is why I've said some of

00:25:37.340 these people are just the right hand of progressivism. The left hand of progressivism

00:25:41.540 will denigrate the founding fathers. We went through that in 2020, right? 2020, 2021, the

00:25:45.960 height of wokeism. They'll tear down statues. They'll say all these terrible things about the

00:25:52.180 founding fathers. I mean, I live in Virginia. I saw all this firsthand. They will try to rewrite

00:25:56.600 history. They'll take over their homes. Go to James Madison's home in Orange County just down 0.99

00:26:02.900 the road from me, and it's all woke propaganda. That's the left hand of progressivism. But the

00:26:08.660 right hand of progressivism will actually invoke the founders in order to defend a system that

00:26:14.080 would inevitably produce an outcome that would horrify the founders if they were here today.

00:26:19.060 like that's the part that's so insane to me is that they have constructed a metaphysics where

00:26:25.420 there is no winning because winning entails power and power is evil and we need to escape power and

00:26:31.640 we need to critique power endlessly and so the moment that we actually like say win an election

00:26:36.100 or want to wield power to undo the ravages of the left in this country these guys will turn on you

00:26:41.900 the second that you walk into office because you know how dare you impose your vision on society

00:26:46.760 Don't you know that we need to be fighting for individual liberty as if there's like this neutral concept out there that, well, if we don't impose our vision of the good and if the left doesn't impose their vision of the good, then that is what the founders actually really meant by liberty or liberalism.

00:27:04.360 No, that is a lie.

00:27:06.360 Nothing is ever truly neutral in the realm of politics.

00:27:09.460 A good example is, you know, we took the Bible out of public schools and we said, oh, we're

00:27:13.800 going to be metaphysically neutral.

00:27:15.360 And now we're finding like pornography in the school library.

00:27:18.260 Well, that's not neutral at all.

00:27:19.460 That's progressive, right?

00:27:21.100 And so it's just really frustrating to see kind of the mask come off for some of these

00:27:27.000 people and for them to really demonstrate that, you know, it's funny how often they

00:27:31.020 will critique Carl Schmitt's friend-enemy distinction, but they're actually masters

00:27:35.340 of the friend-enemy distinction if you think about it. They are perfect at applying the

00:27:39.740 friend-enemy distinction towards their true enemies. They've just declared that guys like

00:27:43.540 you and I are their enemies. It's not really the Marxists within the DSA or Hassan Piker or AOC or

00:27:48.960 Abdul El Saeed because they're not calling for them to be fired or deplatformed or canceled or

00:27:54.800 deported. They're doing that to us, not them. It's so funny. I understand that they

00:28:01.000 think they have something because of carl schmidt they're like this guy was a nazi and they are

00:28:06.540 quoting a nazi therefore they are nazi like they they feel like that is just their strongest

00:28:12.100 position but because they have never read a single word of carl schmidt even though like

00:28:16.660 the concept of the political is like 80 pages they just won't read it they refuse like maybe

00:28:22.480 they're going to catch cooties or something and so they they keep quoting things that are just

00:28:27.560 entirely demonstrably not true about what carl schmidt said so i have to hear constantly about

00:28:32.380 how the friend enemy distinction says you can just do whatever you want to your enemies because

00:28:36.780 they're not human when literally in the same book carl schmidt says actually you can't do that and

00:28:44.100 the problem is that liberalism allows you to declare people enemies of humanity so that then

00:28:48.880 you can treat your enemy however you want at least in the friend enemy distinction they remain human

00:28:53.200 you know they don't even have to be evil people they're just people who are opposed to your way

00:28:57.000 of life and so you can even be friends with them you may have at one time traded with them had

00:29:00.960 business dealings with them but now they're your enemy they're not inhuman that doesn't mean you

00:29:04.200 get to treat them however you want but they are now outside your collectivity and they are in a

00:29:09.580 civilizational enemy like that's how it works and so carl schmidt literally warns against exactly

00:29:15.800 the belief that they are attributing to him because they so desperately can't be bothered

00:29:20.940 to read literally a word the man has said and so they just clown themselves over and over

00:29:25.260 but they're just holding on. They're holding on so tight to this idea that if they just point to

00:29:29.940 this guy and say Nazi often enough, eventually it'll solve the problem or something. But I want

00:29:35.620 to get back to specifically the part about identity. We know taking power and how dare you

00:29:41.240 actually fight for anything. We've seen that for a long time. And to be fair to at least guys like

00:29:46.020 Joel Berry at some level, they didn't engage in most of that. They are worried about the power

00:29:50.680 stuff but they at least some idea we're allowed to win we're allowed to have that but for them

00:29:55.840 it's really the identity piece that is the most dangerous thing the idea that we're that america

00:30:00.660 is a specific people it's a specific place uh you know the thing that makes you american is not the

00:30:05.900 values the values are attached to the fact that you're american you get to exercise your right

00:30:10.300 to reject or accept a proposition because you're american like that's actually where the right

00:30:14.280 comes from not the other way around and they pretend not to understand this but as you know

00:30:19.100 Both you and I have kind of set this mental model out for them to try to help them understand. 0.92

00:30:23.720 Like, look, if we went and replaced everyone in Israel with Indians who had converted to

00:30:30.120 Judaism, like they totally believe in Judaism, they totally believe in the values of Jewish

00:30:35.900 people, they are ideologically aligned with Israel as a nation state to protect and defend 0.91

00:30:40.660 Jews, like everything ideologically is the same, but it's now just all Indians. 0.84

00:30:47.260 Would it still be Israel? 1.00

00:30:48.160 and they just will not answer this question like they they avoid it like the plague because the

00:30:52.840 obvious answer is no it can't be a propositional nation it has to be an identity it has to be a

00:30:59.060 real people and even if you brought exactly the same number of people with exactly the same beliefs

00:31:03.300 in and swapped out the people who are already there you would just not have the same country

00:31:07.160 they inherently understand this even if they want to agree it agree with it when it comes to a

00:31:11.300 country they really value like israel but when it comes to the united states well i mean you could

00:31:15.180 probably just bring in as many Indians as you want as long as you know they wear football t-shirts 0.99

00:31:20.900 then I guess they're just one of us yeah I mean it's kind of denigrating the American identity 1.00

00:31:26.160 to reduce it to watching college football and wearing cowboy hats in Texas if you think about

00:31:31.220 it being an American means way more than just that obviously and I say this as a JMU alum so

00:31:37.900 I'm definitely not a fan of Texas anyway but the no I mean you bring up a good point that

00:31:44.360 these people will denigrate the idea, again, that you can have an inherited identity and

00:31:50.920 organize politically around that inherited identity because from their standpoint, that's

00:31:55.720 identity politics. But the moment that you ask, okay, is it identity politics, which you say is

00:32:01.740 leftism, which you say is woke right, is it identity politics for Israel to exist as a

00:32:06.920 Jewish state for the Jewish people? No answer. A refusal to answer. Combined with a bunch of

00:32:13.320 accusations of anti-Semitism and racism and all that stuff, right? But it's a really simple,

00:32:18.060 it's an extremely easy question if you think about it. The fact of the matter is, is that

00:32:22.700 these people refuse to admit outside of their state of exception that they will grant to

00:32:28.500 a handful of people, they will refuse to admit that anybody is ever permitted to organize

00:32:33.860 themselves politically around an inherited identity. And so therefore, the only identities

00:32:38.760 that you're ever allowed to organize yourself politically around are freely chosen identities.

00:32:44.560 But of course, this is a one-way trip towards what you wrote about in your book, The Total

00:32:49.160 State, if you think about it, right? Of course, you're going to have to construct a giant state

00:32:53.680 apparatus to basically ideologically test everybody and score everybody to determine

00:32:59.760 whether or not they're upholding American values because you've reduced American values

00:33:03.860 to a series of propositions rather than an organic, inherited, cultural way of life

00:33:09.560 that has been transmitted from father to son to father to son over a course of multiple generations.

00:33:16.340 Like, does anybody think for a moment that, say, if you went back to 2000 BC, 4,000 years ago,

00:33:23.440 do you think the Indians in the subcontinent stood around and said, whoa, guys, hang on,

00:33:28.320 before we go out there and build a civilization, we need to write everything down on paper,

00:33:33.800 what we believe in and how we're going to act in society. We need a cultural constitution

00:33:38.540 to dictate our social behaviors. No, of course not. They just went out there and they organically

00:33:44.380 developed what ended up becoming over a period of several thousand years, what we call Indian

00:33:49.600 civilization. The same thing applied to the Europeans, the same thing applied to the English,

00:33:54.560 the same thing has applied to the Americans. How much time has to pass before you end up

00:34:00.940 deciding that, oh yeah, American is also an inherited identity in the same way that Jews

00:34:06.000 are an inherited identity, or Indians are an inherited identity, or the Japanese

00:34:09.860 are an inherited identity. I have nothing against these people having their own identities, 0.68

00:34:15.240 their own countries to reflect those identities. But for some reason, when it's my country

00:34:19.560 that we're talking about. It's almost like a taboo, scary thing for us to talk about how

00:34:25.360 being an American means more than just wearing a cowboy hat and a Texas Longhorns t-shirt and

00:34:30.780 going to a football game. And at the end of the day, this obvious contradiction between the fact

00:34:38.220 that we can see very clearly how these people, the same ones who put forward the propositional

00:34:43.120 nation, don't actually believe in the propositional nation, but only for a select

00:34:48.180 group of people. And usually, I'd say nine times out of 10, depending on the person that you're

00:34:53.420 looking at, the exception to the rule is always either Israel, Gaza, or Ukraine, or some combination

00:35:00.480 of the three of those, right? But the fact of the matter is, is that everybody believes

00:35:04.440 in identity politics and inherited political identities, but it's just for their preferred

00:35:09.360 group. It's basically just for people that they actually like. Well, this has become a very

00:35:13.760 fascinating phenomenon because, of course, you know, one of the things that has happened

00:35:17.260 is the English are currently undergoing their own dispossession, just like pretty much every

00:35:23.000 Western nation at this point. And the conservatives in the UK are basically stealing a bunch of

00:35:30.140 talking points from conservatives in the United States to explain how the United Kingdom is

00:35:36.000 actually a propositional nation. Now, of course, the United Kingdom is four kingdoms put together.

00:35:41.280 and so uh it's uh it's a nation in a much older sense it's a you know it's a kingdom uh not truly

00:35:48.520 it's four nations all you know welded together into this one political entity but of course

00:35:53.940 you know the english have obviously been there forever like it's where english people come from

00:36:00.040 so the idea you know with with america the idea of the propositional nation i still think makes

00:36:04.540 no sense but the very least you know there weren't anglo-descended people here and then there were

00:36:09.120 englu descended people here and so we can understand at some level people kind of saying

00:36:12.900 well okay you know this is something different because different people have come here they were

00:36:17.400 born in america originally we had to come from somewhere else but literally england is where

00:36:22.900 english people come from they can't there's no story of them traveling from somewhere else this

00:36:26.920 is where they're from and so the fact that they have picked up the very same rhetoric is fascinating

00:36:33.360 because they're now pushing this idea of the uh british conservatives of like these five british

00:36:38.800 values like they use the hand uh literally like i did when i taught middle school at one point

00:36:42.740 uh where you have to write the the values on the hand and the fingers and the values are literally

00:36:48.440 all the same values that american conservatives talk about it's like well you know hard work

00:36:54.680 quality uh acceptance you know like all these things that are just these meaningless empty

00:37:00.820 liberal terms that don't actually attach to anything and so it's just interesting that in

00:37:05.660 order to destroy the united kingdom their conservatives have to use exactly the same

00:37:10.320 ideological deconstruction of identity that the american conservative movement is using on its own

00:37:16.340 people and i want to make it really clear to people this isn't a ideological deconstruction

00:37:21.000 right this is a fundamentally leftist project they are intentionally trying to uh blow apart

00:37:29.720 the aspects of an intertwined identity so that once they've kind of isolated them they can kill

00:37:35.440 each one and then just destroy the identity right like for the same reason that when you're 0.86

00:37:40.820 questioning what a woman is you need to abstract every aspect of being a woman okay well a woman 0.97

00:37:46.420 is someone who bears children oh what about women who don't have can't bear children what about a

00:37:50.280 woman who's had hysterectomy right it's the same thing with what's an american right they have to

00:37:54.280 start abstracting away every value. And so I just think it's fascinating that basically in order to

00:38:00.500 dissolve the United Kingdom, the right there is importing exactly the same poisonous ideology

00:38:05.620 that the American right has been using to dissolve American identity here.

00:38:10.660 Yeah. I mean, and like you said, this is kind of an extreme case because the English have been 1.00

00:38:16.660 around for, at the very least, you can say going back to the Norman conquests, right? If you look

00:38:22.500 an English identity. And by the way, these people bring this up as an argument against it. They will

00:38:26.440 say, well, there is no English identity because English is a combination of a group of people

00:38:30.140 over time. You have the Celts and then the Romans and then the Anglo-Saxons that came over after

00:38:35.760 the Roman Empire collapsed, and then finally the Danes and the Viking invasions and then the

00:38:40.100 Normans. And so therefore, you're not permitted to have an identity. It's kind of ridiculous,

00:38:44.760 though, if you think about it, because at the end of the day, the same group of people that

00:38:50.660 they're mass importing into the country. They get identities. We know them all the time. I mean,

00:38:55.760 I saw earlier today a tweet from somebody bringing up that like, oh, it's racist to say

00:39:00.600 that Rishi Sunak isn't English. He told us that he wasn't English in his first speech

00:39:06.720 as prime minister. He bragged about being Hindu. That was like a selling point for him and for

00:39:14.300 the conservative party. They were celebrating the idea that they had basically put forward

00:39:20.360 as the leader of the country, a non-English person. It was in effect a DEI selection, 0.81

00:39:25.500 if you think about it. And this was like a selling point that the Tories were bragging about back in

00:39:30.440 what, like 2022, I believe, when he became PM, right after the Liz Trosta mini budget blew up.

00:39:38.100 And so it's hilarious to me that we are told repeatedly that, no, these people don't get

00:39:42.900 an identity. But of course, the ones that they're mass importing into England, they very much get

00:39:47.680 an identity. In fact, they get an identity so much that if you point out that there are

00:39:52.700 incompatible cultural differences between the native population of the English Isles 0.95

00:39:57.380 and the newcomers that are being mass imported by the hundreds of thousands, well, now it's

00:40:02.040 becoming millions, the liberal state actually turns on the native population who are bringing

00:40:08.200 up the quiet part out loud that, wait a second, we have a set of cultural standards that don't

00:40:12.980 don't mix well and are incompatible with these newcomers. Again, the state apparatus will go 0.92

00:40:19.800 after basically the English patriots in the name of protecting the minority population who very

00:40:28.160 much get an identity. It's kind of shoved in your face. You have to actually celebrate the

00:40:32.440 minoritarian identities that exist. So at the end of the day, this is basically just a form

00:40:38.700 of civilizational acid. Like I brought up earlier, this is like the rights version of

00:40:42.300 transgenderism. When you take this to its logical conclusion and you dissolve inherited identities 0.98

00:40:48.400 because they're too dangerous, we're not allowed to organize around them because otherwise you get

00:40:52.280 back to the messy questions about nationalism and religion and, you know, R.L. Reno's concept

00:40:57.200 of the return of the strong gods. These things need to be put back into the past because of the

00:41:02.580 events of the 20th century, you don't actually destroy that clash of civilizations that Samuel

00:41:09.280 Huntington was warning about in the 1990s. You make it inevitable, actually, because now what

00:41:14.360 you've done is you've created a two-tier system where the native population of these countries 0.91

00:41:19.260 are not permitted to have an identity except in the negative, right? Orrin, I can tell you the

00:41:25.340 first time that somebody used the term white man as an insult directed against me rather than a

00:41:31.260 descriptor. And, you know, at the time it caught me off guard. I was like, well, what does this

00:41:35.940 have to do with the merits of my argument, whether or not I'm right? I was in a debate about

00:41:39.440 something. It's only ever permitted as a negative identifier, right, for the native population.

00:41:46.080 But at the same time, we're supposed to celebrate actively the identities, the inherited identities

00:41:51.580 of all of these other minoritarian groups, many of which are being mass imported, and some of

00:41:56.100 which are just being fabricated, right? Again, going back to the transgenderism thing. 0.84

00:41:59.420 And what's eventually going to happen is that the right will respond, regardless of what the Joel 0.83

00:42:05.400 Berries or the James Lindseys have to say about it, the right will eventually respond and be like,

00:42:09.000 I understand the rules of the game now. All politics is identity politics, and therefore

00:42:14.620 we are going to assert our identity as Englishmen or as Americans or as Christians or as members of

00:42:20.840 Western civilization. And there's no escaping that. Because at the end of the day, you cannot

00:42:25.540 have a country where you create a two-tiered system of justice and really kind of like

00:42:31.160 citizenship, where the native inhabitants of the country are kind of put beneath everybody else

00:42:37.640 because they're not allowed to organize themselves around an inherited identity. Either everybody 0.82

00:42:42.540 gets an inherited identity, which is the state of the world for the last, say, 5,000 years of history,

00:42:47.760 or nobody gets an inherited identity, which is kind of like the liberal utopia that we're

00:42:52.080 constantly told is just around the corner. But look, we've run this experiment long enough to

00:42:57.780 understand that that is never going to happen, at least in a foreseeable timeframe. And so if

00:43:02.020 everybody is permitted to organize politically around an inherited identity, it is inevitable

00:43:07.600 that you are going to get a resurgence of nationalism within Western countries. And this

00:43:12.260 is what's happening, right? You can look at the polling in Europe. I mean, what was it? A few days

00:43:16.940 ago, AFD swept a bunch of elections in a couple of German states. And the CDU, which is kind of

00:43:22.980 the Joel Berry party of Germany, they got wiped out in one of those two states. They literally

00:43:28.080 lost 100% of their seats. These were two states in what used to be Eastern Germany,

00:43:32.440 former communist part of Germany, right? You're seeing this everywhere. And I think the reason

00:43:37.340 that you're seeing it everywhere is because the native inhabitants of these countries realize

00:43:41.400 that no there is a double standard at play and i actually do get to to you know operate within my

00:43:48.380 own self-interest because everybody else is doing the same thing so the reason i wanted to have this

00:43:54.480 discussion was to get to this point which is uh obviously we see the dismantling of these identities

00:44:00.680 uh and right now the uk is in an interesting position because uh they are talking about how

00:44:07.400 they're gonna have to go to war at some point now no one ever really explains why i guess they're

00:44:13.680 eventually gonna have to go to war for ukraine i suppose is the idea here but they they keep

00:44:19.660 talking about how a war is coming and they need to be prepared for it and the funny thing is of 0.84

00:44:23.800 course no one in the uk will fight for the united kingdom of course the immigrants aren't gonna 0.96

00:44:27.900 fight for the uk at all they're there to collect benefits it's not their homeland they can go 1.00

00:44:32.500 somewhere else. They don't care at all. But now the native English are entirely uninterested in

00:44:37.900 fighting at all for the country because they've been told, well, this isn't your country. You're

00:44:43.860 being dispossessed of it. You're being replaced. And that's a good thing. You don't have any special

00:44:48.060 claim on it. The fact that your parents built it, that they are the reason, you know, their

00:44:51.980 sacrifice, their investment in your future, their death on the battlefield. None of that means

00:44:57.600 anything the you know person from afghanistan who showed up in england six months ago is just as

00:45:03.360 english as you are actually they might be a better englishman than you are like that's that's the

00:45:07.520 message that's getting sent and so people are just uninterested and of course the same problem is

00:45:11.700 going to occur in america and i don't understand how people don't get this but over time people

00:45:18.800 invest in things that they own i mean conservatives get this when it comes to property right like

00:45:22.620 that's the whole idea one of the reasons capitalism works so well property rights work so well and it

00:45:26.860 does in this area is that ownership confers iterated games in which it makes sense to invest

00:45:33.480 in the thing that you own, right? If I have a rental car, I'm going to get rid of it in three

00:45:38.180 days. So who cares? Drive it as fast as I want, slam on the brakes, you know, leave stuff in it.

00:45:42.560 It doesn't matter to me. It's not mine. It's not going to ultimately, you know, maybe I have some

00:45:46.820 personal sense of duty that overrides that, but the general behavior of people is, well, this is

00:45:51.300 the one time I'm ever going to interact with this car. So there's no reason to be responsible with

00:45:55.280 that car. Everybody understands that. If you own the car, you're taking it for oil changes. You're

00:46:00.220 cleaning it. You're doing all the things that you care do to maintain something that will be

00:46:05.580 your property over time. The same is, of course, true with land, with a nation. If I'm just here

00:46:12.440 for one instance, if it's just my life, then there's no reason not to just maximize what I

00:46:18.980 can get out of the experience. It's totally transactional. However, if this is the country

00:46:23.880 that is going to be the country of my children and my grandchildren and my nieces and my nephews

00:46:29.200 and all of the people I care about and all of the things that I have valued. That continued

00:46:35.940 iterated game that I'm playing makes me want to cooperate. It makes me say, actually, I want to

00:46:40.000 invest in the quality of this country. I don't just want to maximize what's best for me in this

00:46:44.980 one instance. I want to get out of this things that are great for my ancestors and those that

00:46:50.240 come after right like i want to plant a tree that i'm never going to sit under because at some point

00:46:55.280 my descendants will get to enjoy it those are the sacrifices that don't show up on gdp charts or

00:47:00.760 anything else but actually make a society what it is and this is most especially seen when it comes

00:47:05.860 to military fighting as carl schmidt said no one dies for an economic zone no one dies for you know

00:47:12.680 these transit identities if you if america is simply something that you can pick up and put

00:47:17.360 down, if it's pulling on a University of Texas shirt and then taking it off and going somewhere

00:47:22.860 else, well, then there's really no reason for people to invest in this identity. And so in an

00:47:27.460 interesting way, these people are basically manufacturing countries that cannot survive

00:47:31.820 by their own, by just the basic laws. If you look at any classic philosopher, the existence of the

00:47:38.620 city is predicated on its ability to compel men to die on its behalf, right? This is just the

00:47:44.700 classic definition of what it means to be a citizen what it means to be active in a republic

00:47:49.660 and be part of politics is you earn that by your ability to sacrifice on behalf of that nation

00:47:54.580 and so the fact that we've just completely removed all incentives for both the native population and

00:47:59.420 foreigners who are coming in to do that means we're basically dooming the country at the end

00:48:04.180 of the day yeah there's this term bringing up germans there was this term from a different

00:48:09.960 german jurist in the mid-20th century i'm probably going to butcher his name because i don't speak

00:48:15.320 german it's it's called something on the lines of the bachenford dilemma um and uh he basically

00:48:22.520 theorized that the liberal state lives off of prerequisites or an inherited social capital

00:48:27.960 that it can't uh preserve on its own or even regenerate on its own and so if you build a

00:48:34.520 state simply around guaranteeing rights or propositions or maximizing economic growth

00:48:39.960 all good and well things, right, in their proper context. But if you build them as the foundation

00:48:45.140 for the state, and you say that the state exists to guarantee rights for the abstract,

00:48:50.880 you know, universal man, the kind of universal floating bundle of rights that we call a man,

00:48:56.500 because you can't even call them men anymore, right? Then what you've ended up doing is created

00:49:01.260 the very circumstances through which the state itself can't perpetuate itself. Because what

00:49:07.360 happens when there's a crisis? What happens when there's a war or an economic crash or a natural

00:49:12.900 disaster or just something out of the ordinary? Well, you can't really ask the abstract universal

00:49:20.460 man to sacrifice, maybe even sacrifice his own life for the liberal state, because the whole

00:49:26.360 point of the liberal state is to maximize individual self-actualization. And being able to

00:49:32.140 live, right? Live your life is one of the highest virtues of the liberal state. So how dare the

00:49:38.400 liberal state demand that I put my, you know, that I risk sacrificing my own life so that way the

00:49:44.580 state may continue to live or the civilization may continue to live. If the purpose of the

00:49:49.900 civilization is simply to, again, maximize my own individual liberty rather than transmit an

00:49:57.720 inherited identity over a period of multiple generations, right, a particular way of life

00:50:03.020 over time, then, of course, you shouldn't be surprised when you look at, like, the opinion

00:50:07.380 polling in these European countries or increasingly in the United States where you just see huge

00:50:11.120 numbers of people that are like, no, I'm not willing to fight and die for this country.

00:50:15.040 Well, why would they fight and die for this country? Because they don't identify it with

00:50:18.500 themselves anymore. You've told them that they're not allowed to. That's dangerous, right? That's

00:50:22.920 nationalism. That's far right. It's woke right, whatever it is, right? It's one of these bad

00:50:27.560 words. And we can't permit people to identify with the state on an inherited or ancestral

00:50:33.680 playing field. It must surely be nothing more than an economic transaction. But we know that

00:50:41.120 people don't die for economic transactions alone. I mean, I can't remember the exact

00:50:47.540 verse, but there's a line in the gospel of Matthew about this, about how man does not live

00:50:52.680 off of bread alone. At the end of the day, if you give a man a wife, a child, a country to fight

00:51:01.560 for, a God to live for, he will go out into the wilderness and he will build civilization from

00:51:06.620 scratch. He will sacrifice himself for his wife, for his child, for his king, for his country,

00:51:11.820 for his God. But if you take those things away, and you might give him a lot of material

00:51:17.740 well-being, you could increase his standard of living. You can give him access to electricity

00:51:22.260 and cars and the internet and give him a well-paying salary. But if you take those other

00:51:27.340 things away, he kind of spiritually dies over time. It might take a generation or two, but he

00:51:31.460 dies off. And then when that moment of crisis comes that you were talking about, when the war

00:51:37.040 does finally arrive or when the economic crash does finally come and drastic measures are needed

00:51:42.920 to preserve the very civilization that was providing the good times, once the hard times

00:51:48.100 have shown up, you find out that there are no hard men that are willing to get you through the hard

00:51:52.920 times because you made it effectively illegal for them to be hard men, right? Like that's kind of

00:51:58.880 the paradox here at play. I think you're totally right when you say that the liberal state in many

00:52:04.140 respects creates the very conditions that inevitably lead to its own disillusion. Because

00:52:10.140 once you've said individual liberty alone in the abstract, right, self-actualization is the highest

00:52:16.300 good, well, then my conception of individual liberty might be drastically different than

00:52:21.160 the progressives' conception or the libertarians' conception or even the conservatives' conception.

00:52:25.680 Why should we band together and fight for a common cause if we don't even agree on the

00:52:30.200 first principle that we've all said is the most important, which is individual liberty?

00:52:34.660 And so it's impossible to create a shared pre-political we because you've kind of laid

00:52:40.760 the foundation that have led to the endless fragmentation of what previously was a shared

00:52:46.800 pre-political week. So my last question before we go to the questions of the people here is

00:52:54.280 you and I and your co-host Nick Freitas have been kind of having a little bit of a discussion on

00:53:01.380 Twitter. I think I saw a little bit of you guys had an episode on this where Nick was correctly

00:53:08.000 pointing out that obviously like all this in fighting the right is you know not productive

00:53:12.180 that people are taking shots at each other constantly and of course i would prefer that

00:53:17.360 we are not doing that at all like i really would actually like to just adhere to the idea that

00:53:21.700 there are no enemies on the right however we have entered in a scenario where i don't think that

00:53:27.140 this can ultimately be resolved i think we have drawn um a friend enemy distinction down the

00:53:34.020 middle of the right here at some level and it comes down to this you and i uh you know i don't

00:53:40.180 know if we agree on everything but from what i've seen we largely agree on at least this fact which

00:53:44.340 is you and i want the right of americans to live historically we want the right for americans to

00:53:50.960 be a people to have a heritage a continuity of tradition perhaps demographic security the

00:53:56.240 understanding that while you know people will come and join america you know we're still going to have

00:54:00.860 immigrants or staguna you know have assimilation these kind of things that in general there should

00:54:05.740 be a core identity of america that is definable and allowable uh in fact good these are things

00:54:12.040 that are like critical to actually having a continued people and then there are other people

00:54:17.260 who are on the right or in the conservative movement who literally think that that is heresy

00:54:22.660 who think that is that that's let's that's nazism or also simultaneously radical leftism because

00:54:30.580 i don't know uh shore horseshoe whatever weird linguistic term they need to kind of uh reconcile

00:54:36.920 the fact that those can't possibly be the same thing uh ultimately they see the need to have a

00:54:45.000 witch hunt and get rid of all this as you said both you and i have had our employers regularly

00:54:49.740 tagged in angry responses uh to our tweets to make sure that we need to be destroyed but it's

00:54:54.680 far beyond just our personal cases guys like rod drear and eric erickson and joel berry are warning

00:55:00.380 about how there's this evil movement of people being funded and, you know, simultaneously all

00:55:05.880 of these anons on Twitter with their edgy opinions are sitting in their basements and not doing

00:55:09.920 anything. But they're also, in reality, in every conservative institution and taking over the

00:55:15.920 Heritage Foundation and taking over all of these things that, you know, are critical to the right.

00:55:21.160 And so I think the problem is that a lot of established conservatives realize suddenly

00:55:25.480 that basically all young people agree with us. Like they've just completely lost the next

00:55:29.760 generation. And they're terrified because there are too many people who would agree with our

00:55:33.700 construction of kind of American nationalism, and they can't be allowed to function inside

00:55:39.980 conservative institutions because that's where real power lies. Real power is in wielding the

00:55:44.220 institutions. And so they are actively trying to purge people who believe in a traditional

00:55:49.000 American identity out of a conservative movement. And so we've got to this point where I'm not sure

00:55:54.840 that we can actually create a fusionist alliance with these people because fundamentally we have a 0.81

00:56:02.420 basically like trans problem at the center just like it's impossible sorry like i don't care if

00:56:08.780 at the moment uh me and some leftists agree that israel has too much influence in the united states

00:56:13.440 i'm never siding with these people because they want to trans the kids like their their vision

00:56:18.600 of the good is fundamentally incompatible with mine we cannot both coexist inside the same 0.95

00:56:24.580 political system at least with them being able to wield power over me and mine because they will

00:56:29.020 destroy my way of life and i think we're getting to the point where certain sectors of the

00:56:34.900 conservative movement simply cannot coexist anymore because they fundamentally do not believe

00:56:39.940 the same thing and not only do they not believe it but they're not willing to let bygones be

00:56:44.820 bygones about this they need to purge out everyone who disagrees with that they have to expel the

00:56:50.600 other the enemy so that their friend coalition is whole and so i just don't think that uh we're

00:56:55.800 going to reach that point but what do you think about the future right and the possibility that

00:57:00.080 we can kind of put this all aside and just you know deport people or something hopefully

00:57:03.840 so it's a good question it's something that i've struggled with myself trying to figure out an

00:57:09.600 answer to it and i don't think that there is a clean answer one way or the other your point is

00:57:13.880 pretty well taken orm um there are definitely individuals that like at this point the bridges

00:57:19.400 have been burned, at least on a personal level between me and them. And the funny thing is,

00:57:23.340 is that they were the ones who burned it. But it is also worth noting that there are quite a few

00:57:29.700 people that in some ways, I don't want to say straddle the fence, because that makes it sound

00:57:34.340 like that they're wishy-washy. I don't mean it that way at all. But I mean it in the sense that

00:57:38.960 they do still retain the ability to speak to these two different branches of the right that

00:57:44.040 are emerging. And I can't help but feel like that there are still people in this other camp that are

00:57:50.880 not in the same camp as you and I that can be reached to a degree. We might not be able to paper

00:57:56.660 over the divide between, say, the classical liberals and the post-liberals. And I understand

00:58:00.720 that not everybody uses those phrases, right? They're loose definitions. But just because we

00:58:07.760 can't necessarily paper over the inherent philosophical divide, the kind of first order

00:58:13.720 questions between those two camps, does not mean that necessarily in every policy aspect,

00:58:20.640 we must necessarily be opposed to each other. Because sometimes the enemy of your enemy is

00:58:26.260 at least a lesser enemy. Let's put it that way. There are people in this camp who, for example,

00:58:32.820 they would suffer just like you and I if the radical left took back power in the United States.

00:58:37.520 And they recognize that. They know that. The problem is that they're afraid of identities, they're afraid of power, and so therefore they're not necessarily effective political allies. But some of those people you can still persuade. It's worth noting that a lot of our own guys started off from a more classical liberal or libertarian or establishment conservative position.

00:58:59.200 I was a libertarian until probably about five, four years ago. 0.59

00:59:05.020 And so the Christian Hines of 2026 having this conversation with you would probably mortify the Christian Hines of 2018.

00:59:14.700 And it's worth understanding that, that people aren't fixed in place in terms of their belief system.

00:59:20.500 It can change over time if the circumstances change.

00:59:23.340 And so I always want to leave an avenue open for somebody to recognize, even if they're coming late to the party, somebody to recognize that, oh, no, we actually do need to act on these things to save our country and our civilization.

00:59:36.040 I always want to leave the door open to those people.

00:59:39.200 But outside of that, there is, to a degree, going to need to be some form of right-wing fusionism in order to win going forward, for no other reason than the fact that we have a two-party system in this country.

00:59:52.420 If we had a multi-party parliamentary democracy like Germany or the UK, we would have different parties at this point. You'd have the Patriot Party. You'd have the Rhino Party. You'd have the Gay Race Communist Party. You'd have the ineffectual liberals, the Ezra Clines. There would be four, five, six parties, but we don't live in that type of environment. We live in one where there's two parties.

01:00:14.060 And as long as there's two parties, there's going to be a party of the left and the party

01:00:17.420 of the right, broadly speaking.

01:00:19.020 And the party of the right is going to include people that I don't agree with, that you don't

01:00:23.680 agree with, that my friend Nick Freitas doesn't agree with, but they are nonetheless on the

01:00:28.360 right because they recognize that the left is the greater enemy.

01:00:32.020 And figuring out a way to create that kind of fusionism for the 21st century is, I think,

01:00:38.600 going to be probably one of the biggest tasks that we have in front of us going into the 2028

01:00:43.620 and, you know, election cycle and the 2030s for that matter with the census that's coming up. So

01:00:48.280 I don't yet know what the answer is, but I do know from my line of work, I mean, I work in

01:00:54.260 electoral politics. I know that from my line of work that it is going to have to happen as

01:00:58.980 uncomfortable as it might be for us and for them to come to the table to some degree to hash out

01:01:05.900 some of these differences. Some of these people

01:01:07.860 you're never going to work with. I don't think I'm

01:01:09.840 ever going to work with James Lindsay, but some of these

01:01:11.900 other people that are on the

01:01:13.840 right, they recognize

01:01:15.860 this as well. We actually have to come together

01:01:17.880 or else we're both going to 0.94

01:01:19.320 lose this country to basically the DSA.

01:01:23.040 Yeah, and to

01:01:23.880 be fair, to

01:01:25.580 bolster your point, I think the number of

01:01:27.960 people who are so

01:01:29.680 radically against

01:01:31.360 people like you and me that they feel like

01:01:33.880 they have to be purged, that's shrinking

01:01:35.840 rather quickly i think that guys like lindsey and barry and erickson and drear are increasingly

01:01:41.720 irrelevant to the conservative movement they still have legacy voices they still have platforms that

01:01:47.340 they built or were a part of and so therefore they carry some level of sway and and uh you know

01:01:52.680 name wise but when it comes to actual thinking actual policy what anyone is really doing uh

01:01:58.920 either on the ground politically or online any of that stuff it just doesn't factor in you know

01:02:04.660 they're that hardline stance there are probably still people who as you say may might be skeptical

01:02:09.860 or you know might have some some concerns about traditional nationalism that kind of thing but

01:02:14.780 ultimately they're gonna side with us at the end of the day in a way that barry and others wouldn't

01:02:20.300 and but that number of people who wouldn't side and and feel the need to purge is ultimately 0.99

01:02:24.740 shrinking very quickly so i think you're in a scenario where you know the phalangists and the

01:02:30.160 carlos and the right republicans all had very serious ideological differences but it turns out

01:02:35.180 franco was good at killing fascists or communists rather and that's ultimately what mattered that's

01:02:39.880 what found them together and the rest can be hashed out uh afterwards uh so that said uh gonna head

01:02:45.840 over to the questions of the people here but before we do can you tell people where to find

01:02:49.680 your work anything that you want people to be aware of sure uh you can just look up my name

01:02:53.900 on x christian heinz weird way to spell heinz uh h-e-i-e-n-s i've got logs i won't go into the

01:03:02.000 story i've got an interesting anime profile picture from my time writing my my master's

01:03:06.040 thesis about austrian naval policy um so you can find me on x there i'm pretty active over there

01:03:12.220 i'm on nick freitas's podcast making the argument which is also hosted by the blaze

01:03:16.240 and uh we typically depending on the week we'll do anywhere from like four to five podcasts a week

01:03:21.260 Nick's traveling at the moment so we've got some pre-recorded episodes going out and interviews

01:03:25.060 and stuff like that but I'm usually on there and um yeah those are probably the two best places I

01:03:30.440 do technically have my own YouTube channel I've only got three videos out so far but I think

01:03:34.360 they're well worth watching I'm currently working on the fourth one but I am not as prolific in

01:03:39.400 putting out videos as you are or Nick is but I am definitely trying I'm wading into the waters

01:03:44.340 a bit but for all of those platforms you can just look up my name and you'll find me

01:03:48.180 yeah i have an anime avatar because i wrote a master's thesis about warfare it's got to be

01:03:56.260 one of the more interesting ways to explain that phenomenon but i'll let people dive into that in

01:04:00.740 their own time all right so uh bobby the nabob says i'm glad to see christian live and in the

01:04:07.720 flesh off of twitter sorry uh to i think hear about what's happening in virginia do you want

01:04:15.040 to update people on what's happening in virginia if they may not be yeah it's it's not great or

01:04:19.420 and i'm not sure where you are but i live in virginia i've lived here for over i mean i i

01:04:25.200 moved here in 2000 so i've lived here for 26 years it's my home and uh the the far left has taken over

01:04:31.540 virginia we're going through californication it's probably looking like it's going to be a blue wave

01:04:36.400 in virginia this year but the good the silver lining is that it's a motivation problem on our

01:04:41.500 side the right going back to what you were talking about earlier we've got to get our our base

01:04:45.860 motivated to show up in these midterm elections or else we're going to lose potentially two

01:04:49.820 congressional seats maybe three if it's a total wipeout so um yeah it's not looking great but

01:04:56.040 you know at the end of the day virginia has existed for 400 years and i think that it can survive

01:05:01.700 uh a left-wing takeover but it is definitely not looking great at the moment

01:05:06.400 uh i'm not sure how to say most of that uh something but uh yeah sorry i'm not even

01:05:15.500 going to attempt to pronounce that but thank you for your question regarding the classical

01:05:19.340 liberal types uh punching right the center right when given the choice will usually side with the

01:05:23.980 communists over the nationalists yes uh that really is you know as i've said you know a lot

01:05:30.180 of these guys hate the idea of no enemies on the right uh but their argument really does seem to be

01:05:34.920 nominees on the left like ultimately they will be in dialogue with people on the left they will

01:05:40.040 entertain people on the left even their craziest people they'll debate them they'll platform them

01:05:44.540 all the things by the way i love the fact that platforming became a negative thing on the right

01:05:49.060 now after just a decade of talking about how ridiculous it is to not even be able to hear

01:05:53.060 people out now we have to hear like i can't believe you're platforming these people uh like

01:05:57.500 we just didn't have a debate for 10 years over that but yeah it has been uh fascinating to watch

01:06:02.460 over and over again the left you know the conservative is always reaching to the left

01:06:06.700 and you know kind of canceling to the right that seems to be a consistent theme here

01:06:10.860 yeah i mean oran i'm not sure if you're aware but like the cdu in germany the the center-right party

01:06:18.080 will like enter into a coalition with the spd the social democrats the left-wing party

01:06:23.480 in order to stop afd and not just you know spd they'll also enter into a coalition with the

01:06:29.620 Greens, the Greta Thunberg Party. And, you know, the center right will ally with the Greta Thunberg

01:06:34.880 Party. And in some rare cases, like Die Linke, which is the like, you know, avowed gay race 0.86

01:06:40.060 communists, all in a bid to stop the nationalists in AFD. So it's just it's a story of the right 0.72

01:06:46.360 versus the actual right versus everybody else, including the quote, you know, conservatives or

01:06:51.140 the center right. Well, and we can see how radical this phenomenon is, because isn't the ADF run by

01:06:56.500 or afd run by a lesbian it's run by a lesbian in a relationship with a sri lankan woman

01:07:02.660 right so this is the far right in germany yeah it's literally the fourth reich that's 0.82

01:07:08.260 ridiculous yeah but that's how when we say that the the center right won't coordinate with the

01:07:15.220 right at all and always goes left we mean not even you know it's not even the hard right like 0.99

01:07:19.200 like you know lesbians married to foreigners are are hard right in this in this creation it's a

01:07:25.420 truly bizarre thing to behold uh joe mcdermott says propositional nation uh believers have no 0.97

01:07:31.300 true principles a common theme among those that hate us and want us dead i mean it really is

01:07:37.060 again if you were designing an ideology to dissolve the existence of a nation i don't think

01:07:42.860 you could do a much better job right it's just it's just soft communism that's it that's all it

01:07:48.500 is it's soft communism it completely deconstructs real american identity replaces it with something

01:07:54.660 that you know you can pull apart you can abstract you can isolate and you can subvert like that it

01:07:59.920 really is it's it's hey it's hegel for conservatives it's hegel for conservatives when it comes to

01:08:05.420 american identity it's a truly amazing thing uh thuggo says most world war ii propaganda uh used

01:08:13.380 ethnics such as kraut or jerry even though german and english are closely related so uh so liberalism

01:08:20.080 used identity uh yeah i mean that's very true obviously uh the approach to this is uh changed

01:08:27.880 very much over the years uh these would often be held up as dangerous and racist examples uh even

01:08:34.240 though ultimately uh they were literally things that you know people in living memory were doing

01:08:39.560 while fighting the nazis uh because it turns out actually the war wasn't an ideological war it was

01:08:45.600 a war of you know land and people as all wars actually are uh but you're right that that has

01:08:50.980 been used uh bobby says i wonder if part of the woke right op is actually just about jd vance

01:08:58.420 and the distant right are just cloud damage yeah 100 like that's absolutely the case uh yeah like

01:09:03.840 it's not even a question uh literally like i'm not saying that these people need to be paid

01:09:08.120 but we literally know that a large number of these people are being paid by um certain republican

01:09:13.580 and primary hopefuls who think that they're going to disrupt J.D. Vance's attempt to kind of be the

01:09:20.160 successor for Trump. They hated Trump. They were never Trumpers. They hated MAGA. They always

01:09:25.340 wanted to make sure MAGA was derailed. And so a lot of this is absolutely just, you know,

01:09:30.400 the main battle is actually to unseat J.D. Vance and MAGA's control of the right. It has very little

01:09:35.620 to actually do with, you know, concerns that, you know, the Groypers are hiding everywhere. 0.50

01:09:39.900 yeah oran i'll actually one-up you for a second and say in some ways it's even bigger than jd

01:09:45.320 vance because the desire here is to revert the republican party back to 2012 it's just that jd

01:09:51.520 vance happens to be the guy that's kind of in the way for that ideological project but these people

01:09:55.640 have never given up the idea that trump is an aberration and that the moment that he's gone

01:09:59.900 we get to revert back to the pre-trump era of politics where the gop is run by a bunch of like

01:10:04.940 bush romney type neocons this is something that makes uh me pretty frustrated actually you know

01:10:12.380 we all knew uh 10 seconds ago that winning the election did not actually put you in charge

01:10:18.480 right like that's that's the lesson of the first trump uh administration that's the lesson of the

01:10:23.840 battle for you know ron de santis in the primary and everything else uh that the party has a life

01:10:28.920 of its own that the political system has a life of its own and so there's recently been a push to

01:10:33.800 silence people who are critical of the republican party saying well you know ultimately you're you

01:10:40.060 know black pilling or you're in some way uh trying to make people not turn out or not you know work

01:10:45.680 hard in politics because you know you're noticing that there's a problem with the gop and the point

01:10:50.040 is like no obviously like the left is evil you have to defeat it the only vehicle that even

01:10:57.020 slightly exists for right-wing politics for true nationalism on the right is the gop but the gop

01:11:03.140 is a disaster and so you can both criticize the nature of the GOP and how it's been conducting

01:11:08.460 itself while recognizing that you have to basically take over the GOP and make it better like these

01:11:13.220 things should not be mutually exclusive but for some reason I see people running out to defend

01:11:16.720 the most ridiculous Republicans at this point who obviously are on the neocon side who obviously 0.72

01:11:22.040 want to revert us back to you know the party of Mitt Romney but for some reason because Trump is 0.97

01:11:27.640 now technically the head of the GOP they forgot that like Trump is not actually in charge of the

01:11:31.980 GOP that they GOP still hates Trump but they think because like some of these senators ran out and

01:11:36.820 said I like Trump because it wins me elections and ads all of a sudden everyone's on their side

01:11:40.680 it's kind of bizarre to watch yeah no I I agree it's a I mean that that's a topic that's probably

01:11:48.280 going to be brought up a whole lot more over the next two years as you go towards 2028

01:11:51.900 uh Baloo says uh it's too bad we're just uh an economic zone now but at least we all got rich

01:11:59.820 uh see what you did there see what you did there uh nathaniel blaney maybe uh says a great stream

01:12:08.080 and guest uh if behind the rawlsian veil of ignorance can't uh if behind the rawlsian veil

01:12:15.400 of ignorance can't know what christianity is true why are they allowed to believe in liberalism

01:12:21.500 a little little awkwardly constructed but excellent point right like if you do not have

01:12:26.380 that uh ideological underpinning if you don't know uh that that's the case then how can you 0.99

01:12:32.040 assert those values of course john rawls is an idiot uh is the answer it's the answer to that 1.00

01:12:37.060 question um all all all philosophy that starts with that kind of thought experiment you know 1.00

01:12:43.020 just imagine yourself in a state of nature just imagine yourself in a veil of ignorance where you

01:12:48.220 have no identity and no belief like that's just liberalism saying imagine the world isn't real

01:12:54.400 it's it's the same imagine you could remove the profit motive imagine there's no heaven imagine

01:13:00.940 there's no borders you know above us only sky like it's just the imagine song guys it's just

01:13:05.160 john lennon uh you know that that's all there is to it yeah these people don't want any inherited

01:13:11.020 obligations towards anything but liberalism right that's the one inherited obligation that they'll

01:13:16.420 impose on you against your will and mani youd says the beautiful losers can't stop what is coming

01:13:23.120 the communists and their liberal allies can't stop what is coming none of us can stop the return of

01:13:27.400 the strong gods and the rebirth of history that is absolutely correct the only question is what

01:13:33.700 you do with that and better to recognize its reality and turn it into something that is

01:13:38.060 beneficial and helpful and binding for your country rather than something that is hateful

01:13:43.060 and destructive and ends in something like violence or war the question is not will we

01:13:47.960 have to confront these issues the question is do we have the courage to confront these issues

01:13:51.480 before they explode and destroy our civilization in the meantime all right guys we're going to go

01:13:56.860 ahead and wrap this up as always you should be taking checking out christian heinz work of course

01:14:01.240 he's on there with nick fritas they do a great job it's a show on the blaze that you should

01:14:04.840 absolutely be watching if it's your first time on this channel you need to subscribe click the

01:14:09.060 bell notifications all that stuff so you know when we go live and if you want to get these

01:14:12.160 broadcasts as podcasts you need to subscribe to the or macintyre show on your favorite podcast

01:14:16.040 platform also don't forget my book the total state is out in its second edition on amazon so

01:14:20.860 you can pick that up. Thanks for watching. And as always, I'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - September 24, 2026

No One Fights for a Country That's Replacing Them ｜ Guest： Christian Heiens ｜ 9⧸23⧸26

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