The Auron MacIntyre Show - Why the Conservative Coalition Is a Disaster ｜ Guest： Titus Techera ｜ 10⧸28⧸26

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00:00:28.180 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:29.580 thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think

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00:01:40.700 So we've had this ongoing discussion about what is an American, what is a nation, what is nationalism, how should we be organizing ourselves and understanding ourselves as a country.

00:01:51.700 And somebody who has been talking about this a lot, somebody who's involved in these conversations and works with the NatCon convention to discuss these issues is Titus Tichira.

00:02:01.580 Thank you so much for coming on, man.

00:02:03.680 Good to see you again, Oren. Thanks much for the invitation.

00:02:07.540 Absolutely. So you're involved in the organization of NatCon.

00:02:12.080 obviously we just had the natcon jerusalem conference and a number of americans came

00:02:18.340 over there they gave speeches about how israel should understand its current relationship

00:02:23.700 with the right now i want to there's a lot that came out of that we've already covered it i've

00:02:28.900 had william wolf and other people on so i'm not going to rehash the entire discussion there people

00:02:33.220 can watch that if they want to get those understandings but for you as somebody who's

00:02:37.920 in the background organizing these things. Why did we have this particular panel? Why NatCon

00:02:44.760 in Israel at this current time? Because I understand what the goal was here, but for many

00:02:51.120 people, the question became, why are a bunch of Americans going to Israel to talk about how

00:02:56.440 America should be governed or how America should organize itself? I think a lot of people saw the

00:03:02.060 conference in that frame. Now, I think the speeches that came out of it might have clashed

00:03:06.920 with that that frame but can you explain what the thought process was going into setting this up

00:03:11.900 uh yeah uh you know you're right uh on all of these things and uh william's a friend uh i've been

00:03:18.700 helping uh get him more involved in that con as with uh others as with you know lomes all of these

00:03:26.740 guys are friends and uh they were asked to come and be themselves they're provocative smart people

00:03:33.220 who have something to say about what the future will look like

00:03:35.960 and give you evidence that it's already happening.

00:03:39.240 So they did exactly what they were supposed to do

00:03:43.700 because they've been working on these projects.

00:03:46.520 They've been thinking these thoughts for a long time.

00:03:49.060 It's just, you know, now they had an opportunity to say it.

00:03:52.380 And so, you know, everybody was very pleased with it.

00:03:57.220 It's a basic lesson of politics in our time.

00:03:59.940 all good things are on the other side of a scandal you survive politics used to be nicer but it ain't

00:04:07.260 and it's not going to be nice and we all know it that we're on the range from are you risking

00:04:11.260 cancellation to are you risking assassination and so actually this was nicely at the bottom

00:04:16.560 of the escalation ladder so why are we even so worried about it but uh so yeah we are courting

00:04:23.900 scandal and uh we are trying to catch lightning with it there's no other way to do politics 0.85

00:04:29.180 you know from a certain point of view israel should just not matter a lot in american life

00:04:34.460 it's far away and it's very small and a lot of the reasons why it used to say cold war politics

00:04:41.180 you know it's life isn't that way anymore i'm a huge believer say in american innovation i want

00:04:47.740 these guys who are making nukes to put nuclear power plants so that middle eastern gas and oil

00:04:53.860 just don't matter as much anymore we should worry about this stuff less the problem is that we are

00:04:59.800 politically on the right horribly disorganized uh you know i'm part of natcon i've been working

00:05:05.720 on this for years so in some sense i'm you know singing my own praises because we actually put

00:05:09.700 on conferences but really let somebody else put on conferences let other people also do it

00:05:15.360 the right means a lot more of that uh i think there's no room for jealousy here you just have

00:05:20.640 to do more emulation let's have that but uh but so it is we are disorganized and that meant that

00:05:26.760 when october 7 happened it was all over the news for everybody and then it launched a cycle of

00:05:32.460 activism and politics on the global left at any rate in europe and america it was this way everybody

00:05:38.960 started seeing people on campuses you know do crazy things and then that's happening in hearings in 1.00

00:05:45.340 front of congress and you have these crazy ladies running ivy league universities pussyfooting around 1.00

00:05:50.300 genocide threats and everybody realizes how hypocritical they are because they would never 1.00

00:05:55.160 they would never behave this way except for you know the one case jews and of course all of us 0.82

00:06:01.180 are out there thinking i can think of one other case that doesn't even get consideration which 0.89

00:06:05.960 is white men so uh like you know you could be adversarial or you could think you know we're

00:06:11.480 suffering the same kind of humiliation here but either way a lot is unspoken that drives the

00:06:17.800 passions and then this becomes a huge political demands made the you know international like the 0.84

00:06:24.740 look western european countries are ungovernable without the muslim vote this is what is happening

00:06:29.800 in germany you know the the center coalition depends on muslim votes uh they're losing german 0.96

00:06:34.940 votes there's going to be elections that bring either the left or the right to power in some 0.87

00:06:39.560 crazy way this is true of england the government only works on muslim votes and so these governments

00:06:44.180 recognize Palestine or like France did as well. And so now it's all over international news. It's

00:06:49.760 a huge issue in international politics. Is it likely that an American president can afford not

00:06:56.000 to have opinions when these huge movements are happening in other nuclear powers that are NATO

00:07:01.140 allies, whatever we're calling it these days? Is it likely that Americans are going to be able not

00:07:06.620 to have opinions when this is happening all over media, when it's especially happening in elite

00:07:12.340 colleges that have some power to drive not just the national conversation but to change opinion 1.00

00:07:17.480 and in the part that i care about most is it likely that if women are over social media saying

00:07:23.840 does this caffeine make me look hot that young men are going to be able not to react to that

00:07:28.960 everybody's staring at these screens everybody has this social media and if you're so politically

00:07:35.320 disorganized from like nato level or u.n down to you know whatever you're seeing on tiktok or

00:07:40.740 instagram then you're gonna get shocked and that's what happened to the american right and uh aside

00:07:47.000 from the fact that you know like uh people who don't get their opinions from serious people are 0.96

00:07:51.180 gonna get at least entertainment from nick fuentes and then like assholes in new york times overreact 0.98

00:07:56.020 to this or all of these moroni conservatives overreact to it because it's good for their 0.97

00:07:59.940 business profile to overreact to it and and so we are shocked again like how many times do you have 0.76

00:08:06.320 to get sucker punched before you realize that you have to react faster move out of the way of the

00:08:10.840 things like don't be there don't be where the punch is going to come okay just move in or move

00:08:16.340 out do something about it or run away from it entirely but don't get caught we got caught again

00:08:21.880 and again in these uh cross currents of social media if you allow me to change my metaphors

00:08:27.260 and so something has got to be done and trump has decided that at least for the time being

00:08:33.440 uh american politics will have a connection to israeli politics and that means that something

00:08:38.680 is necessary that for the sake of conservatives right-wing guys but especially for young men

00:08:43.860 and uh and so it made sense to have an atcon jerusalem and to speak up about all of these

00:08:51.780 issues like everybody wants to see what i have to say i have a big speech about it in which i say

00:08:56.280 very plainly uh israel needs a new public diplomacy no more victimization no more yapping

00:09:02.520 about antisemitism just put forward the vision of nationalism with young men who are active

00:09:07.420 that everybody else can uh envy and imitate for themselves uh you know

00:09:13.140 americans should want this for america and they should be acting for for this in america also and

00:09:21.080 then so also with frenchmen in france and so on and so forth that's what it would have to be so

00:09:26.200 that we can have some way to coordinate politics, social media, public diplomacy at all levels

00:09:35.320 so that we are no longer simply victims of media cycles.

00:09:40.040 So I think that was an interesting response that, of course, came out of NatCon.

00:09:46.020 As you say, you were aware the controversy was going to come.

00:09:49.260 It's not that you were not actively courting the controversy when you set this kind of

00:09:53.460 thing up.

00:09:53.980 But the response to NatCon was, you know, I think some people recognize that it's good to hear, you know, a group of Israelis, no matter how small, ultimately say, yes, this is what this type of nationalism should exist for everybody.

00:10:12.160 This is not something that only is for the Israel or only for Jews, only for Israel.

00:10:19.040 This is something that should be a model that people should be able to put their interest

00:10:22.620 forward, that they should have a vital and robust kind of prioritization of their people

00:10:28.440 and a pride in their way of life and be able to assert that.

00:10:31.680 I think that was great to hear.

00:10:33.000 Unfortunately, of course, immediately the problem was a lot of people in the United

00:10:40.880 states became extremely angry at this uh some of them were jewish uh but a large number of them

00:10:46.700 were christian zionists who were extremely offended on israel's behalf now i mean it wasn't

00:10:52.540 just that obviously mark levin was lost his mind over this as well uh but we we immediately have

00:10:58.180 this response across uh kind of all of establishment conservatism that we don't talk to israel that

00:11:04.500 this way that if you talk to israel like you know it's full of adults then ultimately you're you 0.54

00:11:10.220 setting up the next holocaust you're probably going to go step your way you know into poland 0.81

00:11:14.680 like we have this this response that's immediate and insane and it becomes and it's liberal and 0.81

00:11:20.580 it's what liberals were saying in 1960 why are we doing it now well let me ask you that why are we

00:11:28.700 doing it now because that's that's always the question that doesn't get answered yeah so i

00:11:33.200 think you know there's a couple of things here like let me start with something like uh you know

00:11:37.760 what I can say in favor of Christian Zionists. 0.81

00:11:39.780 Like, I am a Christian. 0.98

00:11:40.740 I'm born and raised in Romania, Orthodox,

00:11:42.460 not American Christian, Protestant,

00:11:45.080 but also Zionists,

00:11:46.700 but they have nothing to do with each other.

00:11:48.020 I just think Israel is a civilized country.

00:11:50.580 People have a rule of law,

00:11:52.640 and they live together as decent human beings,

00:11:55.080 and there's a lot of education and knowledge and so forth.

00:11:57.920 That's what I mean by civilization.

00:11:59.880 If it weren't that way, I would not be supportive.

00:12:03.500 And I don't think, you know,

00:12:04.540 it just doesn't have that much to do with Christianity.

00:12:06.880 it's just a political thing but uh but i will say something in defense of christian zionism you know

00:12:12.360 once upon a time in the days of reagan and pat boone christian zionism was the only way to talk

00:12:17.220 about jesus in american politics this was like the heyday of liberalism even the even the christian

00:12:22.480 episcopalians were becoming one atheist after another it was crazy in the mid-century and so

00:12:27.340 the only thing you could do as an american protestant christian especially the sunbelt

00:12:31.280 california all the way through the south uh was to talk about this everybody knew that it was kind

00:12:36.520 of code for jesus because uh and like the kind of test uh is the politician willing to go to

00:12:43.180 israel i mean if you're left wing no right wing that tells you something but but these things

00:12:48.240 don't necessarily work anymore they're being done at an industrial level i mean during nat con

00:12:53.860 jerusalem for example there were thousands of protestant preachers in israel on various multiple

00:12:59.680 competing tours by the way like getting the israeli tour and i guess you know it's nice

00:13:04.240 is a bit of tourism for that but it does also have these other weirder political and theological 0.99

00:13:08.480 uh problems associated that uh it looks like will not die except when this generation of boomers

00:13:15.120 dies uh things that once made political sense and don't make political sense anymore have become

00:13:22.100 not not a you know a tool to recruit on the right as they used to be uh they have become a tool to

00:13:29.420 stop the advancement of the right the reason all of this craziness is being shouted so many of

00:13:35.720 these neocons and as you said a lot of them are jews some of them are not but they're there's

00:13:40.760 and they're all sort of liberal uh at least in comparison to the right immediately they seem

00:13:45.420 super liberal the reason they're doing this is because they realize they are losing uh you know

00:13:51.360 any kind of credibility they have already lost the audience they have lost the politics they have

00:13:56.060 lost the votes but they haven't yet lost the money because they haven't yet lost the hysteria

00:14:01.960 of the donor class and that's the only thing they have left uh you know like if some parts of 0.58

00:14:09.260 politics you just have to be practical about like in three trump elections the proportion of jews

00:14:13.820 that vote trump has increased significantly like from like 20 to 30 something percent uh you can

00:14:18.520 you can track it more closely although there's some weird numbers about this it's a good idea

00:14:22.780 to get more jewish votes it's a great idea to make sure democrats get fewer jewish votes 0.57

00:14:28.060 it's it's a good idea from the point of view of political rhetoric to disarm 0.69

00:14:32.200 the the liberal notion that anybody to the right of the liberal contender is an anti-semite he's 0.99

00:14:39.120 it's it's auschwitz it's good stepping in poland it's all that shit uh you know that happened in 0.98

00:14:43.500 another world on another continent like in your great grandfather's day it's not our politics is 0.96

00:14:49.240 not the concern but it's still politically useful in media rhetoric and to some extent in scaring up

00:14:56.100 money from donors and that's why these were still have to be fought that's why we have to deal with

00:15:00.880 this drama again and again up until you can put enough victories on the board how many times do

00:15:06.840 you have to win a fight up until you really won it's not easy to say in advance but but hopefully

00:15:12.340 we can fight it to ultimate victory, to take away from these people, not just the drapery

00:15:19.600 of morality, that they're somehow defending something great and noble when they're achieving

00:15:23.260 nothing, but to take from them even the notion that they're honest.

00:15:31.100 And the way you take that away from people is by forcing them to face reality. 0.94

00:15:35.820 And the reality is that Democrats now are Jew haters.

00:15:38.940 And there are a lot of these people in various, you know, European countries who are Jew haters.

00:15:43.420 They're doing it for fun and profit.

00:15:44.940 I'm not sure what they care about Jews or how much or how deep. 0.99

00:15:47.880 And it's not my concern, really.

00:15:49.680 But it takes away any notion that, you know, centrists or respectable people or neocons have any grasp of reality.

00:15:57.240 Half the elite they have completely lost.

00:15:59.440 And they're now losing the other.

00:16:01.780 What counts in American politics is a lot more to do with Trump and a lot less to do with these people who are just yapping the mouth on media.

00:16:08.660 But given the structure of politics, unfortunately, we still have to deal with that.

00:16:13.980 Everybody moves into the admin who moves into the admin.

00:16:16.620 Everybody who is out is out, like we're just here talking, and there's no connection.

00:16:20.680 And so there's no way to get media going that is properly politically right-wing aligned.

00:16:26.480 Like on the left, people get that the media is out there to sell the state to the people.

00:16:30.760 It's the access.

00:16:31.860 It's the connection between the state and the people.

00:16:34.300 On the right, nobody understands that, and so we have no such thing.

00:16:37.420 Where is our connection on the right to the admin?

00:16:42.600 Pretty much zero.

00:16:43.700 It's a huge problem.

00:16:44.860 And so instead, we have to deal with these people who have nothing going for them, except

00:16:48.720 that, you know, 20 years ago or 30 years ago, they started a career.

00:16:52.360 But this is not that world anymore.

00:16:56.100 But to counter that, I mean, Mark Levin literally is the connection between the media and the

00:17:01.820 administration.

00:17:02.520 Like Donald Trump tells you, go listen to Mark Levin.

00:17:05.780 He knows what he's saying.

00:17:07.300 he knows what he's doing and it's hard not to notice that Mark Levin has also been you know

00:17:12.020 the largest and loudest advocate for the most disastrous decisions that the administration has

00:17:17.520 made so I hear what you're saying but I don't think we can just pretend that there isn't a

00:17:22.780 connection here or that this isn't driving or that these voices are in any way politically

00:17:27.760 irrelevant I think that they will be irrelevant in a few decades I think that the you know the

00:17:32.140 the people that they influence is dying out but it's just not true that there is no connection

00:17:37.200 between conservative media or the administration uh the most direct connection we can tell is

00:17:42.040 pretty much the most poisonous uh yeah i think you know that much uh i agree but i think even

00:17:48.920 there i would say uh it's trickier than that it's also like look if you're out there on the

00:17:54.840 conservative movement selling books where do you go you have to go on levin because he moves books

00:17:59.980 OK, everybody knows nobody reads those books, but they have to be sold.

00:18:04.880 This is just welfare for right wing writers.

00:18:07.640 You know, we don't have cushy jobs in think tanks or academia. 1.00

00:18:11.500 What you do is you write the book and it's kind of a stupid book and it usually goes 1.00

00:18:15.180 through it. 0.99

00:18:15.580 OK, but, you know, that means that some young guy who is 20 something goes to write the

00:18:20.480 book and it helps him make a career.

00:18:22.480 It's kind of shabby, but it also kind of works.

00:18:24.920 And so I would say that that's the political reality.

00:18:27.480 I don't think Levin really has that much influence.

00:18:29.980 certainly not on Trump, but it does have some influence.

00:18:34.500 And that's because the media connection to power and the connection to elites

00:18:41.360 and the need to have places for people when we're not in power,

00:18:45.640 all of these things are so bad that you have to talk to somebody,

00:18:50.060 you have to go somewhere, and it's going to be this guy

00:18:52.280 because he was there 20-something years ago.

00:18:54.620 It doesn't mean that there's that much influence.

00:18:57.120 And I think to some extent, you have to look just for real measures of change.

00:19:02.260 Elections are going to be one of them.

00:19:04.280 And we'll see.

00:19:05.440 I don't think that this election is going to be a catastrophe for us.

00:19:10.780 It doesn't look to me that we're losing the Senate.

00:19:13.980 But it does seem to me that there are a lot of people who are anti-Vans.

00:19:19.700 And that, I think, is the practical test.

00:19:22.680 Trump has decided once he nominated, and I guess since he nominated him, that Vance is his guy.

00:19:30.900 And that's a statesman's decision that has not been made in America in a long time.

00:19:35.440 Hard to find who's the last guy who tried to get a successor in the White House.

00:19:43.480 Reagan got Bush, but he kind of hated Bush because Bush was what he is.

00:19:47.620 Just not cool.

00:19:49.640 But it was against his will.

00:19:51.860 He had to put up with the guy from the CIA, et cetera, et cetera.

00:19:57.500 Trump actually had a choice, and he made a choice that's for the good of the country, 0.65

00:20:02.400 not least because he picked what was at the time a youngish white man. 0.62

00:20:06.980 The thing that is like, who has a target on his forehead and his back in America?

00:20:10.940 That's exactly who.

00:20:12.400 And so that was a huge statement.

00:20:14.020 And so everybody will be deciding on that basis.

00:20:17.500 who is supporting this what are the what is the agenda what are the means by which you support

00:20:23.080 vance and maga and so on or you know a lot of these things are up for a decision but not

00:20:28.660 what's coming that that is what's coming that's the decision it's win or lose you're in or you're

00:20:35.020 out and everybody can figure it out for themselves or their associations however they want to but we

00:20:40.360 at least have clarity about what we're trying to achieve and therefore a way of measuring the

00:20:44.520 change. And we'll see. Is Mark Levin that impressive? Are any and all of these new

00:20:49.020 accounts put together? Are they that impressive? Because it's clear that they hate Vance.

00:20:53.700 You know, the war is turning somewhere from bad to maybe catastrophic in Iran. It's like,

00:20:59.340 no, certainly hurt the economy and the campaign and to some extent just the credibility of the

00:21:06.940 president on various issues domestic and foreign but you know Trump is still Trump politics is

00:21:15.860 still politics we have to move on figure out what is a way to to deal with this and if as I suggest

00:21:24.140 and you know I don't say believe me on the elections the pollster I trust who is kind of

00:21:30.180 conservative but not very is henry olson and look up his breakdown of the races or whoever else you

00:21:38.200 think is good at it it seems like we're not really uh facing a catastrophe it's just lose the house

00:21:44.520 and the small maybe ten seed majority on the dems this is the last i've seen and uh seems all right

00:21:49.880 to me uh plausible i mean and i think therefore there's a political basis on which to to to create

00:21:57.660 opinion and media america will either want this or not but before americans get to make these

00:22:05.080 decisions opinion has to be formed so that americans have actual choice and and this i

00:22:09.840 think is the urgent uh thing and the horror that we're facing that because of the war in iran uh

00:22:16.280 now it's it's much harder to to hold maga together and all of the incentives are flying in every

00:22:23.100 wrong way and uh people are going with that uh like we have crazy people uh high up in uh

00:22:31.260 in in politics in dc who are way too gung-ho for war and we also have all of these you know

00:22:36.400 vaguely psychopathic podcasters who are just looking for drama uh and then it used to be

00:22:41.240 epstein but then that failed and now it's going to be something else uh whenever this one stops

00:22:45.980 and all of these things are hurting the ability to put a coalition together to keep it together

00:22:51.420 it's hurting our ability to tell anybody what wins we're winning what fights we're fighting

00:22:57.020 what kind of support we need and even hurting the ability to say this is a real movement that

00:23:02.900 needs some degree of structure we need some framework for action and standards by which

00:23:07.700 to judge the change is it good or bad and uh yeah it's hard but i suggest orienting around

00:23:14.640 or elections and candidates that you can believe in.

00:23:18.340 Well, I do agree that I think attitudes for advance is a good litmus test,

00:23:24.560 though I worry that, honestly, the war and the resulting fallout

00:23:28.680 probably hurts the vice president's chances at election more than anything else.

00:23:34.940 So that's its own problem.

00:23:37.420 Forgetting the current political situation and the war itself,

00:23:40.720 the future of the Republican Party,

00:23:42.280 seemed a lot clearer when he was not going to have to wear that albatross and now it seems almost

00:23:46.860 impossible that that won't be the number one thing he has to either defend or somehow deny

00:23:52.000 if he moves into a 2028 election season uh that said i think that you know i've heard a lot of

00:24:00.500 people talking about why why the right just doesn't have this media pipeline the way that

00:24:05.840 the left does you know why it can't create that and i think there's a couple things there um you

00:24:13.400 know i think that it kind of did when trump had the momentum right like that's the great thing

00:24:19.040 about winning is it kind of sheds everything else so as long as trump is winning everyone wants to

00:24:24.240 be on the trump train and they find some way to attach their uh you know preferred belief system

00:24:30.040 you know the nationalists say oh look he's closing the border and you know he's he's going to deport 0.95

00:24:34.440 all these people and, you know, the Zionists

00:24:36.660 say, well, look, he's still a great friend of Israel

00:24:38.460 and everyone finds a way to kind of

00:24:40.580 you know, justify their

00:24:42.480 support. The problem is the minute the movement

00:24:44.360 stops, right? The music stops.

00:24:46.280 The momentum is killed and then all of a

00:24:48.520 sudden, you know, you have to look

00:24:50.400 at each other and figure out that actually your worldviews

00:24:52.720 are pretty far apart.

00:24:54.540 And so you

00:24:55.260 you're in the scenario where I don't think it would

00:24:58.500 even be possible to deliver

00:25:00.480 a unified

00:25:02.240 message because I think

00:25:04.440 Trump in many ways has lost the ability to do that, but also because you realize how far apart

00:25:10.680 these factions are. I mean, there's very little about James Lindsay and William Wolfe that are

00:25:17.400 going to work together. Someone's going to have to win that battle. Someone's going to have to lose.

00:25:22.720 You can't just have both of these camps kind of working simultaneously when you don't have that

00:25:27.580 vast unifying momentum that's kind of pulling everybody in the same direction. So, I mean,

00:25:32.840 we can look at the podcasters i mean i you know i can look at a candace owens or someone and say

00:25:37.140 yeah obviously bad motivations they're you know toxic to the discussion that kind of thing

00:25:41.520 but ultimately i think that this is a failure of leadership at the top before it is a failure of

00:25:47.460 soldiers uh i think a lot of generals are running around and demanding accountability from the guys

00:25:53.020 who are you know basically just reacting to the fact that there is no leadership structure there

00:25:57.340 is no momentum there is no plan uh and so you are left to speculate i think you know a lot of people

00:26:04.060 will talk about epstein i'm not gonna argue the details of any of that case but the bungling of

00:26:10.280 something like that so publicly by the administration um yeah you can then say oh well

00:26:16.300 candace did this or tucker did this with that or megan kelly went this way okay fine but the only

00:26:21.340 reason they could go this way is because you left everybody asking why aren't we doing the thing we

00:26:26.140 said we're going to do when you go into a war in iran when you fumble the epstein disclosure when

00:26:33.000 you decide to pull back mass deportations because things go sideways in minnesota people have to

00:26:40.280 create their own narratives because you're not giving them one our narrative for going to war

00:26:44.680 with iran was literally marco rubio showing up and saying yeah israel kind of said we had to go

00:26:49.340 you know that's all we got that's we didn't get any justification there we you know we didn't even

00:26:54.540 get a fake uh you know wmd presentation from colin powell like we got nothing on that war

00:27:00.880 to explain what was happening there we're also not even calling it the war right yeah right yeah

00:27:05.700 we're it's a it's a kinetic action of sorts uh but you know exactly right so like we're in this

00:27:11.820 moment where the administration just to be frank has been terrible at communication has been terrible

00:27:17.660 at explanation has not been thoughtful in the way that it rolls and everybody has to fill that void

00:27:22.580 yeah i i completely agree and i think again all of these people at the basic level simply suffer

00:27:28.160 from this kind of uh delusion you know it's like politics in america is something like uh

00:27:33.140 you see liberals do it they win quite a bit sometimes they lose but it seems like it works

00:27:38.660 and then you try to do it and it turns out you're not a liberal it doesn't work for you

00:27:41.980 what now uh those people get it okay and and uh people who don't understand the structure of

00:27:47.740 american politics are inevitably going to fumble it if uh different ones in different ways

00:27:52.000 the separation between state and society is fundamental once you go into the admin it's

00:27:57.840 that's what it is and everybody else is outside and uh to control opinion to even form opinion

00:28:04.320 keep people from going crazy uh you'd have to have all of these other institutions in the media

00:28:10.520 that form a kind of connection uh like uh you know trump used to do that to some extent showing

00:28:17.420 up on TV and his rallies especially did that because they could bypass the problem. But

00:28:23.980 otherwise, you know, I don't think we even watch Fox anymore. So we don't really have

00:28:32.040 these kinds of opportunities to mediate between politics and the people. And the correlative

00:28:39.800 problem to the media problem is the elite institutions. America since the 60s has been

00:28:44.760 centralizing the elite in elite education. Everybody has to go to college, but actually

00:28:49.960 you should go to an elite college. And in elite college, tastes are formed so that people end up

00:28:55.080 with Stalinist level of conformism on everything imaginable. And that's how you create a kind of

00:29:02.660 elite that can function across the regime critical industries. It isn't just the media and academia,

00:29:08.320 but it's also state, it's also finance, it's also law. That's how these things are done.

00:29:13.100 So if you don't have these things at your disposal, what are you going to do?

00:29:17.200 How would you run politics otherwise?

00:29:19.660 Well, you would have to do what Americans since at least, you know, Andrew Jackson has been doing, saying, you know, I went to the election and these people in Washington literally stole it.

00:29:29.120 That's what Andrew Jackson said in 1824.

00:29:30.920 And it turns out it's a winning message.

00:29:32.740 It's worth trying to.

00:29:33.920 So the point I'm trying to get across is that while I agree with you that we need a lot more top-down media narrative and communication support and access, I think we also need some kind of loyalty to the audience from the bottom.

00:29:53.760 it's good to have you know politicians who are even representatives or governors who are good

00:30:00.540 that that can stir some of that loyalty and make more out of it in media and it's necessary for

00:30:06.160 people with audiences to uh be able to see a bit around corners and think that the future also

00:30:12.260 matters that uh because we are stuck in a situation where we are only united as a movement

00:30:18.860 if we're on the campaign otherwise uh yeah you know there's going to be some defeats you're

00:30:26.680 going to lose momentum what then there's going to be stuff that we're split on because coalitions

00:30:31.020 really aren't ever that coherent uh what is you know you get only three kinds of coherence one

00:30:37.480 of them is do you have a common adversary what do you think about infinity immigrants and trans 1.00

00:30:42.460 kids you know these are super bad things clearly they do not focus our mind enough because we're 1.00

00:30:47.420 kind of you know taking it easy uh but uh but i think more more the problem is that uh you know

00:30:55.440 what's crazy about our podcasters is like the opposite of what's crazy in the admin in the

00:31:00.020 admin these people think it's too easy it's not in reality that is you have to work all the time

00:31:04.160 to remind people what the movement is what the campaign is what we're trying to achieve here

00:31:09.100 and they're really screwing that up uh but they're screwing it up because they think it's so easy

00:31:13.940 I won the presidency, now I get to be president.

00:31:18.500 Haven't we already been through that a couple of times

00:31:20.580 and it turns out it's not so in reality?

00:31:23.040 But fine.

00:31:24.020 But on the outside, the problem is the other way around.

00:31:26.940 Everything seems too hard.

00:31:28.560 Things are very hard, but they're not that hard.

00:31:31.080 My problem with the podcasters is that they induce despair.

00:31:34.860 If they made people angry...

00:31:37.800 I love anger.

00:31:39.200 Anger is the stuff of politics.

00:31:41.380 It's supposed to remind Americans.

00:31:44.420 People say, who do you think you are?

00:31:47.300 And what do you take me for?

00:31:48.580 Those are the basic emotions and thoughts in politics.

00:31:51.700 That's what gets you to fight.

00:31:53.360 That's how you can defend something, a community, a family,

00:31:55.720 whatever level you're acting at.

00:31:57.760 But the problem with our podcasters is that they don't do that.

00:32:00.720 Otherwise, you know, what the stories are or the media

00:32:03.060 or how they do the narrative, to some extent,

00:32:05.480 you have to defer to them because they have the audience.

00:32:08.160 They're, in some sense, experts, and I'm not.

00:32:09.520 but uh but it's the the more fundamental issue what do you think you're delivering to your audience

00:32:15.720 um maga is still the thing because it tells people you could have a future uh you're gonna

00:32:22.740 have to fight your way to it and then it's going to be really ugly to get there but you could have

00:32:26.720 a future and there are victories on the way to prove to you that it's real there are markers of

00:32:31.080 change and um and that i think is what what we're missing you know to persuade people that reality

00:32:40.520 is really happening is very hard every setback a lot of people experience every setback as death

00:32:48.300 like all over again i always knew secretly in my heart that i should despair that nothing ever

00:32:52.820 happens and now i have the confirmation i need it there's a lot more despair than we bargain for

00:32:59.020 and it's a lot harder to fight it and um i still think you know you have to have trust in the

00:33:06.600 people and especially in their anger on these things and i still think we we have to do this

00:33:11.760 that they've this we've got victories this way but it's uh but yeah it's it's uh it's strange

00:33:18.580 how hard it is that uh in a way it was much easier when we're being much more censored i think

00:33:23.720 everybody sort of feels that way and to change these things i think again on the one hand basic

00:33:30.440 awareness of the structural difficulties in politics with uh the state versus the society

00:33:35.520 on the one hand on the other hand the need for elite recruitment we have to take those things

00:33:40.240 seriously and um on the other hand uh you know it would be useful to have some minimum of forbearance 1.00

00:33:50.140 I think Candace Owens is a crazy person who should be shot into the sun. 1.00

00:33:55.660 I wouldn't say that about Beggin Kelly. 0.99

00:33:57.580 How am I going to defend that difference?

00:33:59.100 I'm not exactly sure.

00:34:00.220 But to some extent, it's just a longer time in the movement,

00:34:04.340 longer time in the fight.

00:34:06.000 That should count for something.

00:34:08.540 Tucker now seems crazy to me, but I defended him for a long time,

00:34:11.780 and I hope he somehow figures it out

00:34:14.880 and is going to be great in the next election.

00:34:17.760 It would be heartbreaking, but who knows?

00:34:19.900 what he's going to do to the extent which you can forbear or delay things or just you know

00:34:24.180 figure out what is a practical horizon for a decision it can't be i saw this video and now

00:34:29.680 i'm reacting but it has but it can't be let's wait until i'm dead it has to be you know like

00:34:34.620 six months to an election or like some big thing is happening soon enough that you can judge by

00:34:38.460 getting a practical orientation again is what i'm trying to get at social media is supposed to drive

00:34:45.100 anger focus it on issues that are really explosive so that they can go viral and you know make

00:34:50.840 everybody feel we are all in this together it's like how bad does something have to be that i can

00:34:55.600 think that like 100 million american citizens are going to feel the same way super bad actually at

00:35:00.800 this point but that's what it is and i still want those people to feel that way to realize this is

00:35:05.500 america and it's and it's who they are it cannot be anything else it can't be media it can't be

00:35:11.520 some structure it can't be some in-person institution it has to be people who actually

00:35:15.440 live these lives and believe these things and if that's what it takes to awaken people you know

00:35:19.460 that's what it takes we just have to do it uh so anger is better than uh despair or disgust or

00:35:25.580 whatever and uh and and the other thing media is supposed to do is to you know we keep people

00:35:34.260 honest uh this is the weird thing about what we're going through digital media means that

00:35:39.740 everything is recorded all the time okay it's perfect machine memory instantly searchable

00:35:44.920 distributable at zero marginal cost looks like globally uh it's like all there and yet people

00:35:51.800 are working very hard to pretend that three months ago never happened or last year never

00:35:55.700 happened or something like that that's uh that is not to do with our tech it's not to do with our

00:36:02.900 political needs or the movement it's to do with the dishonesty that's gradually the country at

00:36:11.120 the lead level and it's always in ordinary america to be honest is undergoing massive demoralization

00:36:16.860 are people going to keep their word are people going to do what they're supposed to especially

00:36:21.460 you see this with uh how are the old treating the young does anybody believe there's a future

00:36:27.120 because if there's a future it's the young people are we taking care of them in some way that we

00:36:30.880 feel uh we can hold our heads high for doing it uh you know it doesn't look that way and and that

00:36:38.440 enforce that that immorality that demoralization encourages people to forget about the past and

00:36:45.240 ignore the future future just be despairing about it instead of using social media to say

00:36:50.800 we have records of what's been happening what's been saying and we can count win and loss we can

00:36:56.580 figure out who was right and who was wrong and push things you know to the extent to which you

00:37:01.400 can these things are never perfect to the direction of tell the truth more often than not

00:37:06.160 win more often than you lose improve these things with with some constancy so that you can say

00:37:11.840 you know it's it's not looking great but we're not committing suicide here and we're not going

00:37:16.900 in the dark uh this is what we're supposed to be achieving and some of us are trying and a lot of

00:37:23.400 people aren't it's like that it's like going to the worst tendencies of you know people who have

00:37:29.060 in a sense given up on the country or even on themselves either because they're despairing or

00:37:32.860 because they're old and despairing so i have some problems with this frame um the first is like

00:37:40.020 trying to address podcasters as a class uh natcon has podcasts uh tucker carlson has a podcast

00:37:48.820 canis owns has a podcast john doyle has a podcast i have a podcast nick freitas has a podcast lots

00:37:54.780 of people who are pro the admin against the admin pro the war against the war pro israel

00:37:59.720 against the israel you know mark levin ben shapiro everybody has a podcast so it's strange to me to

00:38:06.800 say the podcasters especially when interestingly this was the number one thing that the democrats

00:38:12.820 pointed out as the thing that won trump the election the fact that trump was on these podcasts

00:38:18.140 advance was on these podcasts that they connected with young people the zeitgeist especially young

00:38:22.380 men it was the podcasters you know the left was scrambling to say how do we launch a thousand

00:38:27.280 podcasts so we can get this technology and now we're pretending that it's the podcasters yeah

00:38:33.120 and again i'm not saying there are not individual bad actors here obviously but the idea that like

00:38:38.400 this is the problem i think is ridiculous and i think it's again blaming the soldiers because

00:38:43.560 the generals can't get it together why are people demoralized well one reason people are demoralized 0.78

00:38:49.400 is that they were promised disclosure about important things in the government and then it

00:38:55.100 didn't happen and with not only was there no excuses to why that didn't happen they were

00:38:59.980 attacked the people who wanted the disclosure about the epstein files were attacked as traitors

00:39:04.480 they were told this was a democratic conspiracy theory that is demoralizing that's not the fault

00:39:09.300 of the podcasters podcasters didn't do that to the admin they didn't do that to donald trump

00:39:13.780 why are people demoralized well they were promised no more foreign wars and then they were told we're

00:39:19.220 going to war and by the way your gas prices are going up i was at a trump rally literally last

00:39:24.660 week he was in my area guess what his speech was i don't care about rising prices i don't care about

00:39:30.500 rising gas prices it doesn't matter to me so who is demoralized is it is that is that candace owens 0.98

00:39:36.620 fault that canis owens do that to donald trump did she do that to the trump minister again

00:39:41.240 she's a terrible actor i'm not defending her in any way but like we need to be honest about this

00:39:47.120 and i'm i'm frankly getting pretty sick of people deflecting blame like yes doubt downstream of

00:39:53.780 these mistakes there are bad actions i agree but like turning around and pretending like this is

00:39:59.500 something that podcasters did or that the the general you know gop base is just demoralized no

00:40:04.780 they were super excited when we were closing usa aid i was singing from the rafters the praises of

00:40:12.080 trump as we closed the border as we spooled up the deportation machine even as people said why

00:40:16.980 are we getting deportations in the first five months i was like guys be realistic you have to

00:40:21.160 build an infrastructure you have to hire ice you have to get funding you have to secure i was

00:40:25.740 defending all of this stuff everybody was on board with this it's so so the pretending that like now

00:40:32.360 the podcasters created this demoralization i'm sorry but that just does not look uh i'm uh we

00:40:39.400 have uh all of this i'm agreed on as as before times like let's just set that as you know uh

00:40:46.120 like a floor we're trying to build on top of uh i'm not uh either trying to deflect or to ignore

00:40:50.760 that i'm i'm uh when i talk about demoralization i don't mean that you know like we're not getting

00:40:55.080 people out to vote uh i'm talking about a huge social problem like i don't the country is becoming

00:41:02.120 demoralized like people see fraud you know people see all sorts of parts of america not working

00:41:09.160 that demoralized they see the republican party trying to force everybody to vote for vivek

00:41:12.920 ramaswamy like these things uh you know i i i don't want to litigate vivek or any of these

00:41:20.120 specific things and i'm fine with like you know if people are against him uh that's perfectly

00:41:24.600 fine with me i'm not a fan uh i would not have chosen this thing uh you know it's just

00:41:32.120 strikes me as a snake oil salesman, leaving everything else aside.

00:41:35.200 But what I'm trying to say is that there are huge phenomena in American society,

00:41:46.000 irrespective of the Republican Party, that demoralize people.

00:41:49.500 There are many aspects of what we thought the future would be like

00:41:52.800 that haven't panned out that demoralize people.

00:41:56.040 So I'm not trying to blame podcasters at all for this or even this election.

00:41:59.880 i'm trying to say what is the social context in which the anger and maga like demoralization was

00:42:05.580 also the context for maga people had to let go of a lot of illusions about like you know i don't

00:42:11.560 know obama futurism messiah to say no actually we need to get a lot more serious and we need to vote

00:42:17.640 trump and however ugly it gets we have to push this to the victory and uh you know uh still has

00:42:23.860 to be done uh it's it's going to take much longer than any of us maybe thought but there it is so

00:42:29.540 that's the the context i'm trying to set for this for what the character of the media is

00:42:33.680 talking about podcasting as a tech rather than you know these people i you know if you ask me

00:42:38.660 i like daily wire podcasters less than i like blaze podcasters but i wouldn't want to start

00:42:43.280 a fight between the two like competition is fine but like hopefully it can kind of largely be a

00:42:49.160 coalition uh the uh but the but i mean podcasting as a tech social media is uh you know the way in

00:42:59.900 which it works because of what it is uh not people or even communities in specific we we face dangers

00:43:08.720 that aren't simply to do with this guy's decision uh and also it's like yeah the admin screwed us

00:43:15.240 on a lot of things but we still have to get up and you know do whatever is i don't just a couple

00:43:21.280 of days of course the question is like what do we have socially morally spiritually to fall back on

00:43:27.820 like when you're winning it's easy when you're losing you have to somehow think of the future

00:43:32.180 as possibly better and uh and the thing is like we all know trump and we have seen him for a long

00:43:38.240 time nothing here can change okay uh so like what can what is doable that change i have no intention

00:43:44.640 of blaming even like crazy candace for this because i don't think she's that important

00:43:48.460 you know i think it's important to know that crazy things like this happen because they tell

00:43:52.600 you something about uh how the business works and and you know what the problems are but i wouldn't

00:43:57.760 blame her for much partly because it's hysterical to blame people this way partly because she's not

00:44:02.660 that important you know it's like it looks bad but you know what uh we have bigger fish to fry

00:44:08.200 uh but the uh what i'm trying to get at is uh we have to find media political resources

00:44:15.520 that can project the future when you're losing if you don't have that you lose hope and when

00:44:20.540 you're winning if you don't have that you can't keep people honest like anger is not just you

00:44:26.380 know like uh uh you're we're mounting the troops uh to to to fight for trump it's also like the

00:44:32.600 Admin should be kept honest, too, because they do screw up stuff.

00:44:36.400 So, you know, you scream at these people with, you know, relatively much more frequency than other people I know.

00:44:43.040 And I think it's a necessary job.

00:44:44.760 I'm not sure I have the temper to do it, but I certainly have enough, you know, love of justice and malignness to applaud it and support it.

00:44:52.080 It's the right thing to do.

00:44:53.980 So I think this is the sort of stuff that I'm trying to get across.

00:44:59.120 we we are facing structural difficulties that are not going to be fixed anytime soon like my

00:45:05.320 solution would be what do you do if you don't have that much media and you can't have these

00:45:08.760 kinds of elite institutions the only thing you can do is bet on outside talent uh as i said last

00:45:14.440 time we we did this it creates a vulnerability we're vulnerable to decapitation strikes we're

00:45:19.980 winning up until somebody assassinates charlie or kirk on tv and now we're super confused and uh

00:45:26.120 And I think that's more to do with, like, what happened with Candace than the Iran war.

00:45:31.480 And I think, like, you know, we're sort of stunned, a little helpless.

00:45:39.060 It's a humiliating position to be in.

00:45:41.360 It's horrible to suffer these kinds of losses when you have such hopes and you're on the cusp.

00:45:46.620 We need some kind of second effort.

00:45:48.400 We need some kind of second wind.

00:45:51.000 And it's still the right thing to do to bet on outsized talent.

00:45:55.120 But I think it's also important to consolidate in whatever way possible.

00:45:59.980 Maybe it's like going to be, you know, the Blaze guys, you guys, half a dozen podcasts are going to be big enough together to matter, even in this sense of keeping the admin honest.

00:46:12.460 It would be a hell of a lot better than having Mark Levin.

00:46:14.780 the but uh but all of these things require also some understanding of the characteristics of the

00:46:22.640 media and the spiritual problem of demoralization um it's it's it's what we're trying to fight

00:46:29.140 against but it's also sort of like what gave us the opportunity how could uh new media replace

00:46:34.900 you know all of those people who have gravitas on tv it was a kind of demoralization just got

00:46:39.800 rid of all of that trump showed up and told them this is all a fake show everybody knows it's a

00:46:43.500 fake shows it's like we're all doing it because it's fake and that destroyed their credibility

00:46:47.900 but it's super hard to establish credibility and I think again a lot of people crash out

00:46:54.200 because there's so much uncertainty I don't particularly blame them not that they don't

00:47:01.060 make their decisions and they're good or bad and they deserve praise or blame but in the sense that

00:47:04.900 they are acting in a situation that is super difficult we have very if I could say here's

00:47:11.220 like the three guys who are not just right but they're so successful that they're pulling

00:47:16.160 everybody's hopes to them i would love to say that but i don't know who they are this is the

00:47:20.900 best we've got this is like trump vance and charlie and like trump is almost out and charlie

00:47:25.040 is dead and vance is at the center of a storm like uh the elite wants him dead uh you know

00:47:31.020 let's see where this takes us but uh but this is what we have to work with the how to you know a

00:47:40.200 lot of the conduct you know i live to pet people who are much better at it uh you know i'm here

00:47:45.720 giving some observations and some thoughts on how things work but i'm uh sure that you know your

00:47:51.160 audience much better than i could ever know them and they know you much better they can ever know

00:47:54.880 me so like that's where trust is that's where decisions are made in this regard uh from the

00:48:01.160 distance from which i can offer advice i'm just trying to say which emotions are more reliable

00:48:06.680 and how media can organize them

00:48:08.560 and what technological opportunities we now have.

00:48:11.800 In the past, you really could just lie

00:48:13.800 if people were silent about it.

00:48:16.100 Like if you had a conspiracy of silence

00:48:17.600 because you had enough control of the media,

00:48:19.620 you know, you could do it.

00:48:21.120 If you could do one of those like horror super cuts

00:48:23.300 where like 500 people from affiliates

00:48:25.260 say the same messages in the same words

00:48:27.120 about the same COVID nonsense as happens,

00:48:30.380 like you could try to lie to people,

00:48:34.180 but it turned out to work less and less

00:48:35.560 once people can see the supercut.

00:48:38.060 I want to be clear.

00:48:41.680 Everyone should understand where we're at.

00:48:44.820 Everyone should understand.

00:48:46.580 This is what I try to tell people over and over again.

00:48:49.020 One of the reasons I talk about what time it is,

00:48:52.220 how far we are down this line,

00:48:53.740 is I want people to take things seriously.

00:48:55.700 I don't want them demoralized.

00:48:57.000 I want them to understand how serious this moment is,

00:48:59.380 how much needs to be done,

00:49:01.180 how much they must demand because of what is necessary.

00:49:04.100 You can't just take one victory. You can't just take one thing because we need a thousand of these strung together to get anywhere. And so that's not to say that you shouldn't celebrate a victory. It doesn't mean you shouldn't give credit to a victory. But that means if you're sitting there and getting one guy across one finish line and you're expecting everything to be finished, well, then as you say, oh, I voted and therefore it's fine. I'm the president. We get to be president now. That doesn't work. We know it doesn't work. We need much, much more. And that's why I demand as much as I do.

00:49:33.140 It's not that when I look at the Trump administration, I don't see the wins. Of course, I see the wins. The border is closed. That by itself, all by itself, better than any Republican president, any president, of course, of my lifetime.

00:49:44.240 So it's not even a question. It's not like, oh, is the Trump administration better than the alternative? Of course, the Trump administration is better than the alternative. That is not the question.

00:49:52.400 And I'm never going to tell anybody, go vote for Democrats or sit it out or, you know, go form a doomed third party like that's all retarded nonsense. 1.00

00:50:00.620 You shouldn't go into any of that. 1.00

00:50:01.920 But I'm also not going to sit here and take it on the chin from people who obviously made huge mistakes and put us in this position to then tell me, oh, well, it's some guy talking to a microphone that made us go to war in Iran or made us blow the Epstein disclosures.

00:50:16.280 That's, you know, there are the reasons that we're behind.

00:50:18.680 It's Tucker Carlson's monologues that are keeping us from winning.

00:50:22.060 no no it's not i'm sorry like i get it you can disagree with them if you want you can say whatever

00:50:26.700 you want but ultimately that's not the issue and i don't want to hear about it how it's the issue

00:50:30.880 even if ultimately yeah okay you can disagree with that behavior and say it needs to change

00:50:34.600 like that is not the core problem and when we when we assign blame to people who you know that that

00:50:40.900 when we're trying to scapegoat things that are not the issue that leads to bad analysis and that's my

00:50:45.460 concern my concern is bad analysis of a loss will lead us to more losses if you sit there and you're

00:50:51.040 looking at the game tape and you're like well the fans weren't cheering hard enough like that's

00:50:55.480 your conclusion as to why you lost the football game well then you failed as a coach you failed

00:51:00.120 as an analyst right and that's what i'm seeing right now i'm watching a bunch of coaches who

00:51:04.660 were in charge of the game turn around stare at the fans and say why did you lose this this game

00:51:09.580 and that's that's my concern that's my problem i don't want anyone demoralized i don't want in

00:51:13.680 thinking they can sit this one out that's that's absolutely not where this is going yeah i think

00:51:19.240 you know that's um again like it's it's in the structure of our politics look we we we everybody

00:51:25.300 is oriented to success with the same single pipeline of uh you know elite university and

00:51:31.200 that's how we create a country of losers who get in the habit of being blamed and yeah and we create 0.93

00:51:37.000 elites that get in the habit of blaming the people for whatever fuck-ups and it's very hard to get 0.98

00:51:42.380 people out of that habit uh to remind them that they they have their rights and they can act on

00:51:47.540 them angrily at the nearest election and they can withdraw their consent and attention uh even more

00:51:53.940 often and more easily than that um it's it's so again a lot of this is baked into the structure

00:52:01.500 of our way of life well and a lot of it is baked into the structure of our media apparatus because

00:52:06.100 here's the thing okay one of the powers the reason the podcasts were so dangerous the reason the left

00:52:11.460 was scrambling to cover the podcast is that the podcast disintermediated the the the media

00:52:17.960 connection to the people you know like you said with the trump rallies he can completely bypass

00:52:22.140 when he was on twitter you know which he has not gone back to huge mistake uh like when uh you know

00:52:28.440 you had all these alternative avenues it broke down the consensus of the media what conservators

00:52:33.220 are are having the problem with now is the nature of that media does not change because you won

00:52:38.680 So, yes, the podcasters, the disruptive media, the fact that all of these things were not unified, that were not on message, that did not have, you know, the cathedrals, lifeblood flowing through them, they were the things that were winning the elections.

00:52:52.760 Well, now that is over. Now you still have that disintermediated connection. And all of a sudden, all these people can also point out the same problems with the Republican Party, with the conservative narrative, with the administration, when they make mistakes.

00:53:07.320 and we're treating that as if it's a like some kind of strange bug when it was literally the

00:53:13.780 feature that created the scenario in the first place so at the same time as you have to understand

00:53:18.620 yeah okay maybe the podcasts are a problem for you now what you're really saying is media we

00:53:23.560 don't control is a problem and you're never gonna have a unified message across all podcasters or

00:53:30.840 all social media that's literally why it was useful is that you could not coordinate the

00:53:35.360 message you could not lock people out so we're angry at the very weapon that got us this victory

00:53:41.400 in the first place instead of learning how to adapt to a new media environment i think that is

00:53:46.420 also like a huge issue that is just not being addressed post post kind of the podcast revolution

00:53:51.800 yeah and and again this is um the movement is very disjointed there's like a republican party

00:53:58.060 but there's conservatives which is something else and there's no donors that are you know

00:54:01.980 plausibly independent of the republican party but in fact they're deeply connected and then there's

00:54:06.740 you know things like podcasts all of these things for at some points pull together but not usually

00:54:11.400 all of them and now it looks like pretty much everything is pulling in a different direction

00:54:15.600 people who are in uh you know the republican party is uh both undergoing a very fast change

00:54:28.160 that people should be more aware of that is so like 12 senators are disappearing it's like dead

00:54:33.460 lindsey grant dead on his feet mitch mcconnell uh trump one shot at him john corney like and

00:54:38.840 nine others are disappearing they're not all bad but they're all disappearing and they're all

00:54:43.220 going to be replaced necessarily by younger more pro-trump people we're achieving something trump

00:54:47.740 has achieved a huge change in in the republican party at the level of uh uh the congress and to

00:54:54.760 some extent where he has endorsements elsewhere so there's good news there but on the other hand

00:54:58.860 it's still the republican party and you can see that because trump does not get recess appointments

00:55:03.040 simple as that uh he cannot staff his admin because the republican senate does not want him to

00:55:08.780 uh so we that mean is not the same thing as the uh party either like it's that disjointed there

00:55:16.660 are these many internal fights even at the highest level is the supreme court on trump's side sort of

00:55:22.460 but they tend to take like a year to do it uh you know huge wins by the trump admin in the courts

00:55:28.720 but huge delays also which of the two phenomena is more important the win or how the delay

00:55:34.820 maybe it's too early to tell i don't know it's but but yeah everything is super disjointed

00:55:40.400 these are at some level you can

00:55:47.440 you know you've got two kinds of advantages if you see this one of them you can tell people some

00:55:54.120 of the difficulties come from the structure of things and and you can push levers or sometimes

00:55:59.400 you just have to wait but at least you're not going to lose your mind because you don't know

00:56:04.120 why things are going wrong so you can have some kind of advantage from knowing politics in that

00:56:09.180 sense the other thing that is a deeper thing is to cultivate a new attitude to politics you know

00:56:15.440 i would add to what you were saying that's i think entirely correct on the necessary independence and

00:56:21.860 therefore you know again disjointedness of the the various podcasts you can't control the message

00:56:27.340 you can't control the messengers i would add to that something else that something about the

00:56:32.120 character of the media changed once we went digital uh it is in the again digital means

00:56:37.780 everything is being recorded all the time like this conversation but that also means that it

00:56:42.660 creates a record and the way that shows up for people is i i like the character of oran i like

00:56:47.700 the character of somebody like uh you know that's somehow the character comes across in the cons

00:56:53.360 it's not an accident that we tend to do long conversations whereas it used to be very clipped

00:56:58.520 very prepared uh segments all short you know very neatly packaged product that was essentially

00:57:04.260 meaningless in the tv days this is a new kind of thing we're trying to cultivate character to some

00:57:10.420 extent we're trying to cultivate choices and knowledge and and this is especially hard for

00:57:18.220 young people because they tend to despair more since you know young people are passionate but

00:57:21.940 they're not stupid they can't not notice that they don't have money that they don't have power that

00:57:26.620 they don't have choices uh you know if somebody could like charlie get the youth out to vote 0.99

00:57:31.540 then at least the young people can have power if the young people can get angry enough to make

00:57:36.460 demands then they will count to some extent uh but uh but most of the incentives are against them

00:57:44.580 partly their own habits you know youth is passionate but partly it's the way we structure

00:57:49.060 youth so that uh you know you're only going to be adult at 35 maybe or something like that

00:57:53.580 well like that's something uh that was done to us and it's being done to guys younger than us

00:57:59.280 So, Puck, what are you going to do about that? All we have is the ability to encourage people not to despair on the basis of knowledge of reality. It used to be much easier to lie. Now, it's not so easy to lie at scale. But on the other hand, getting people to think that reality could be useful to them is still very, very hard.

00:58:23.480 people just don't and and again like a lot of this is structural at the simple level like

00:58:28.760 how much was the reality of used to you when you were 8 10 12 14 16 if you were brought up in a

00:58:33.960 highly structured institutional system where it's just a matter of getting to the next level

00:58:37.500 who cares if you know anything or if reality ever you know touched you in fact you might

00:58:42.680 experience reality primarily shocks to that system i was supposed to end up in that whatever

00:58:47.540 thing and it didn't work out for me and i don't know what to do with myself uh it's uh we have

00:58:52.700 huge huge psychological difficulties for that reason but there also are opportunities like

00:58:58.400 to some extent everybody who is trying to oppose this horrifying incredibly feminized tyranny 0.92

00:59:07.020 that's like if you're a white man you're the devil everybody who wants to oppose that has 0.91

00:59:11.700 somewhere in his life a story about like what radicalized you when did reality hit you when 0.98

00:59:17.280 did you realize that either what you're told is not true or you know it's just somehow it doesn't

00:59:22.500 work anymore maybe it worked in the past but it doesn't anymore when did you touch that weird

00:59:27.160 weird experience where you know you realize this is real because i have no idea how to control it

00:59:32.920 or how to predict it or what kind of behavior should i put on to make things work my way

00:59:37.840 that world doesn't really exist anymore uh you know not for most of us for really for a small

00:59:43.440 sliver of elites it's still that way this is why they behave that way it still works but for most

00:59:48.420 of us it doesn't and we have to find new ways of encouraging people to see that reality is uglier

00:59:53.860 than those beautiful fantasies especially like the tracked success script but but real is better

01:00:00.040 than a fantasy uh the good is always tied up with reality uh you know you can have beautiful

01:00:06.300 fantasies about unicorns the problem is that they ain't real okay uh the difference should count

01:00:12.660 And it's like every time that there's a blow up, what is the problem?

01:00:17.920 Is it that people are rejecting reality or that they're waking up to reality and they're angry that they've been lied to?

01:00:23.080 It's super ambiguous, you know, and we have to push it in the one direction, not the other.

01:00:29.660 So this conversation went in a direction I absolutely did not expect.

01:00:33.360 This is not what I brought you on to discuss, but I think it's been very interesting.

01:00:37.900 It's okay.

01:00:38.660 As long as we're having a good conversation, that's what it's all about.

01:00:41.160 that said i did bring you on because i wanted to have you react to a video or two so with a little

01:00:47.060 bit of time we have left i would like to to get your your opinion on this so the discussion was

01:00:52.380 about western civilization everybody having the right to a nation of you know all peoples having

01:00:57.580 the right you know to have that self-determination but that rhetoric seems to have clashed with

01:01:03.540 pretty directly the prime minister of uh israel himself let me bring that up real quick

01:01:09.780 so right after the natcon conference this is what benjamin netanyahu said we're not

01:01:18.560 on stolen land this is our historical homeland we're the indigenous people here we're not the

01:01:27.920 dutch in indonesia in indonesia we're not the belgians in the congo we're jews from judea

01:01:34.840 that's where we come from judea we're sitting right now in judea jerusalem the capital of

01:01:42.320 judea and samaria well they split into two kingdoms out so right after we get this you know

01:01:49.920 understanding that well we're supposed to have this west you know shared western values we're

01:01:54.140 supposed to have this understanding uh we immediately get leftist rhetoric from benjamin

01:01:59.100 and yahoo oh well the west is a bunch of colonializers that's those europeans they're

01:02:04.060 bad people uh we're heckin good you know native people and so we have the moral superiority we're 0.99

01:02:10.920 not on stolen land you know we deserve our land where those europeans are obviously land thieves

01:02:16.060 now i understand what he was trying to counter there i understand that he's trying to counter

01:02:20.920 a leftist narrative as israel's a colonial oppressor uh but the problem is it doesn't

01:02:27.120 seem like israel or even right wingers in israel actually believe this idea about you know well

01:02:34.040 we need to have everybody to be equal we need everybody to have that right uh we need to be

01:02:38.180 talking about these collective western values it seems like when it becomes convenient actually

01:02:43.140 we're more than happy to deploy the rhetoric of the left and attack europeans as colonializers and

01:02:49.220 you know portray ourselves as these great you know uh noble savage you know uh indigenous peoples

01:02:56.100 that the left loves so much and when you're willing to deploy both sides of that rhetoric

01:03:01.620 so easily when you're going to turn at one time and say, Donald Trump is this great guy

01:03:05.520 and America is the best and all these things, but then you're going to turn around and say, 0.68

01:03:09.040 actually, European peoples are all colonializers and they're bad and we're good because we're

01:03:14.580 indigenous. It becomes very difficult for people to build a coalition. It becomes very difficult 0.69

01:03:18.820 for you to have a real conversation because like, well, I might agree with Yoram Hozoni or I might

01:03:24.900 agree with you, but I'm not going to get that out of the literal right wing leader of the very

01:03:31.140 country i'm trying to do business with yeah i think it's a uh as you suggested i think is you

01:03:38.240 know try his netanyahu is lost in these this is what elite opinion is and this is the level at

01:03:44.060 which people debate and he's not even aware that everybody else is also listening um the so i think

01:03:52.460 it's the rhetoric is a huge mistake and the thinking about it is also a mistake uh you know

01:03:57.740 the it's also like uh you know americans were against colonial empires too right like uh

01:04:05.100 this is it's an older way of thinking it was like in 1956 uh you know as eisenhower is against the

01:04:11.500 french and the jews and the english who are trying to stop the egyptians from nationalizing suez

01:04:17.020 because uh colonial empires are bad and uh this uh vaguely psychopathic nasser you know father

01:04:24.140 of terrorism is a new democrat self-determined whatever it's like or woodrow wilsonian uh

01:04:30.060 progressivism uh these these are huge you know catastrophes of 20th century politics it's like

01:04:36.540 the united nations things like that and uh and that's the world netanyahu comes from okay it's

01:04:41.660 a guy like trump born in the 40s i think okay they are men one foot in the grave i don't think

01:04:47.500 they're going to be able to change their uh rhetoric they certainly can't change their thinking

01:04:53.060 But they have only a limited power to bind the future.

01:04:58.060 Trump of America is the Netanyahu of Israel. 0.83

01:05:00.460 Trump says, I'll endorse Bibi.

01:05:02.980 I think Bibi is a very impressive, very great politician.

01:05:06.660 But I don't think it's somebody necessarily you want to trust.

01:05:09.960 He's not dealing with your concerns.

01:05:12.200 So, yeah, there should always be a kind of principled mistrust of other people's leaders.

01:05:18.880 and better rhetoric would help

01:05:22.920 because we could have

01:05:24.100 some more reasonable discussions

01:05:26.540 but we would still have

01:05:27.740 that principled mistrust behind it

01:05:29.860 I hope at least

01:05:32.440 that this is coming back

01:05:34.320 to some extent

01:05:34.920 I would say broadly

01:05:36.440 people under 40 don't have the delusions

01:05:38.820 and this rhetoric

01:05:39.920 older people

01:05:41.760 it just comes out of them all the time

01:05:44.340 I bet you that in audiences 1.00

01:05:46.780 these kinds of old people

01:05:48.060 median age 60 65 something like that or like the fox news audience i really get why they're talked

01:05:54.300 to that way but it's a huge problem for everybody who is actually the future i don't really think

01:06:00.280 this is a problem of age with bb and yahoo i think it's him saying whatever is useful at the time and

01:06:05.500 again it's his country that's fine like ultimately i don't blame anybody for having their own

01:06:11.620 countries uh you know kind of welfare first uh but then i have to but then i have to make deals

01:06:18.160 with these people right and if and if they if i'm told on one side of my mouth that well you know

01:06:23.660 we're gonna have this unified understanding of nationalism and we're gonna change the relationship

01:06:28.540 and all these things and then i turn around and hear that kind of rhetoric it's like okay well

01:06:33.240 actually i can't trust that deal this is that you know again i don't i don't blame anybody for

01:06:39.040 fighting for their own country but i have to make decisions about my country and when i cannot trust

01:06:43.900 somebody to be on my side if i can't trust them to not stab me in the back the minute that it

01:06:48.220 doesn't suit them well then i'm probably not going to make deals with them and i don't want to be

01:06:52.220 told i need to because you know the donor class for reasons where we can't discuss is really super

01:06:59.600 interested in israel like i i can't i don't understand how we can have a coalition built

01:07:04.940 when I know that the knife is sitting right there 0.64

01:07:07.480 and Bibi is going to sink it in the minute 0.87

01:07:09.280 that it's useful for a defense of Israel

01:07:12.940 in some media interview.

01:07:14.900 That's not a way to build trust with me.

01:07:17.000 And I am, again, another good thing

01:07:18.920 that I heard out of NAPCON was

01:07:20.020 Israel needs to start talking about

01:07:21.480 what it can do for the United States

01:07:22.880 and not just demanding what the United States

01:07:25.000 can do for Israel.

01:07:25.940 But when I see rhetoric like that,

01:07:27.100 I don't see a change coming, to be frank.

01:07:28.920 I don't see a shift coming

01:07:30.540 in the Israeli attitude towards the United States here. 1.00

01:07:32.820 You know, Bibi is not the future. Now, there is at least a real chance that, say, a prime minister, Netanyahu, and the president, J.D. Vance, will renegotiate things, say, in January, February 29.

01:07:45.820 There are practical horizons on which you can say what the demands of any American alliance are. For now, Trump says, I super endorse Bibi. Trump wants a winner. You know, this is what we have to deal with. But it's not the future.

01:08:02.820 all of these things have an expiration date that are sooner than later.

01:08:06.900 In fact, in Israel, there's elections, as we're speaking, historic turnout.

01:08:10.280 So there will be some awareness tomorrow of what is the people of Israel doing.

01:08:16.880 I can tell you that, broadly speaking, Israel is split between elites

01:08:24.340 who are still properly understood as connected to the New York Times, let's say,

01:08:29.760 and then what used to be the peace process,

01:08:31.840 you know, the Oslo process.

01:08:33.960 Again, I say you have to think about the times

01:08:37.720 and the change because in the 90s,

01:08:39.920 elites and people with huge arsenals of nuclear weapons

01:08:43.000 thought that they were going to make peace

01:08:44.340 in the Middle East.

01:08:46.240 You know, people really thought this way.

01:08:47.860 I think it's insane.

01:08:49.180 But at the time, it obviously had plausibility.

01:08:51.420 Again, the United Nations once had plausibility

01:08:54.440 and that's how people talked about self-determination.

01:08:57.880 But I think it's insane.

01:08:58.760 and I think the future will prove me right and them wrong and we'll have to make decisions on

01:09:03.640 a more realistic basis but changing the rhetoric is hard and those elites are the kinds of people

01:09:09.300 who are forever worried about anti-semitism and partly because you know they have suffered

01:09:15.340 partly actually because it's prestigious okay it is and you can change these things to some

01:09:23.560 extent you have to figure out in what context prestige and beliefs also count they because

01:09:31.040 they don't change that easily and so one would have to figure out indeed like what is the advantage

01:09:37.060 and what is the disadvantage uh in american politics it still matters somehow if people

01:09:42.440 are called anti-semitic and so you have to fight that fight in a way that you can win it and this

01:09:47.220 has already been tried against vans it will be tried again we all know that there's got to be

01:09:52.020 a way to do it and that is also a practical test like people like yoram defend vance and trump and

01:09:57.240 so on and there have to be others who do it to the extent which that is possible you move opinion

01:10:02.840 you move money in the donor classes you're saying you move votes to some extent and in some districts

01:10:08.080 this will be marginally the the way to victory uh so we have to figure out a way to do that

01:10:14.360 now on the other side of israel there's like the country's super right wing

01:10:17.660 uh partly that's what made bibi he didn't make it it made him that he was the politician who

01:10:23.680 figured out that problem jews went from the peace process to being slaughtered in the intifada

01:10:27.760 you know in their markets in their in public on buses and they thought no more like he was the

01:10:32.980 guy who organized that new politics something like that is probably happening with october 7

01:10:37.680 and they're organizing elections and we'll figure out what new path they take the the israeli right

01:10:43.460 does not have the opinions of the Israeli center-left elites.

01:10:47.200 They're far more openly nationalistic.

01:10:49.420 They're sort of openly religious or at least traditional.

01:10:52.440 And so they just have on the face of it a basis and experience in their own way of life

01:10:59.220 to say, you know what, Texas is fine.

01:11:01.480 I'm not sure about like California or New York, 1.00

01:11:04.520 which is obviously will be a huge reversal of what American Jews have been. 1.00

01:11:10.860 So there is an opportunity.

01:11:12.680 and since these things matter

01:11:14.620 it's better to have some

01:11:16.760 modest openness

01:11:18.660 on a short time horizon while

01:11:20.700 there are changes doable. Like if

01:11:22.700 there's a new government but

01:11:24.120 Bibi starts saying things against the American

01:11:26.540 right or against American nationalism

01:11:28.420 that would be, or maybe just

01:11:30.460 vague stuff, that would be

01:11:32.160 a very bad sign and

01:11:34.260 people would have to act accordingly

01:11:36.260 and denounce him

01:11:38.640 actually. But

01:11:39.900 if it turns out that they're more right wing

01:11:42.420 and he's in a better position

01:11:44.060 and then he is a more reliable ally of Trump and MAGA

01:11:47.460 and specifically if he takes the side of Vance

01:11:50.720 and he can offer some actual support,

01:11:53.040 then that is also a sign that we could look for

01:11:55.280 in the next couple of months

01:11:56.480 and make decisions on that basis.

01:11:59.520 I think on the one hand, experience counts. 1.00

01:12:02.360 Elites come out of a world

01:12:03.520 where nationalism really was not something you did 0.79

01:12:07.900 or talked about,

01:12:08.700 or if you did it, you didn't talk about it.

01:12:11.280 And the new coalitions are very different.

01:12:16.020 I think more broadly, not just in Israel,

01:12:18.660 it will be useful for Americans to understand a bit

01:12:21.840 about what is making the UK develop a party-like reform.

01:12:26.460 Why are young men in England the way they are?

01:12:28.980 What is bringing Rassemblement National in France to power?

01:12:32.240 Partly because it's better to have allies than no allies,

01:12:34.940 and partly because it's better to have allies who don't hate your guts.

01:12:38.200 uh you know uh the eu hates trump hates maga hates you the french right doesn't i'm not saying

01:12:44.980 they love you i'm just saying they don't hate you and so there's like some margin of agreement or

01:12:49.100 polite uh mutual ignorance or whatever the the alliance would actually be who knows but they

01:12:55.680 don't hate you and that's a huge step forward and that's true obviously with you know young

01:13:00.380 germans who are probably not fans of america but they hate the eu and german elites more so there's

01:13:05.980 like some basis on on which to have less hostility uh i have seen this in israeli on the israeli

01:13:13.440 right in young men as well and uh you know like nat kondis one of the more nationalist uh politicians

01:13:20.220 in israel that is hated by uh elites globally smotrich uh said that actually palestines

01:13:26.460 shouldn't be going to europe actually that this is a problem for arab countries

01:13:30.360 Well, before he said that they should, like, before he said in Israeli media that they should, actually. So which version of him are we trusting? Just like which version of Bibi are we trusting? It probably depends on the audience.

01:13:43.700 And I don't think it's, you know, how far can you trust, you know, any politicians, but especially where there's a different country, different language.

01:13:55.240 You know, it's, yeah, I wouldn't be a rush headlong into anything.

01:14:00.940 I would only say, you know, what are the near and medium term interests and the horizon for decision?

01:14:06.640 Since there's a possibility for change, I would rather push things in our direction.

01:14:11.940 are you gonna get it it remains to be seen i'm not saying that also like that anybody should be

01:14:17.760 committing huge resources of any kind to this like it's it's it's uh it looks like things are

01:14:23.260 gonna get better but it's not such an important thing and it's not so sure so it's not worth

01:14:29.600 it's not a sure bet uh it is useful up to a point uh and and what we can get is encourage people

01:14:39.880 by way of demands with what we want and uh and that's uh pretty much what we can do beyond that

01:14:48.460 it's not really in our hands but uh if we can get more supporters if we can get these people say

01:14:53.680 like uh you know like say this more most of the time and that only some of the time and act more

01:14:59.500 on this and like give me deeds not just words then okay we have a small basis of trust uh that's what

01:15:06.760 we are pushing for. And again, these things matter. The reality is that we had about a year

01:15:14.220 of scandals over Kevin Roberts at Heritage, who is a great guy, over J.D. Vance and in other

01:15:21.580 institutions. And that was primarily old timers trying to destroy new people. And this generational 1.00

01:15:29.420 succession fight will be fought, as I think you very well know, for another decade or God knows

01:15:34.260 want uh and uh since we don't have that much money and that much power we have limits as to

01:15:40.740 what choices we can make but uh knowing what's going on and figuring out what stake do you have

01:15:47.200 in anything like how much do you control how much would you win if it's a win and and bet on that

01:15:52.080 basis uh is would be very helpful um and and also just thinking about this thing that uh we don't

01:15:59.920 have to lose forever a lot of these people are old a lot of these things are changing like

01:16:03.700 it's going to be a new game

01:16:05.880 and it may be easier to win

01:16:08.120 and

01:16:09.220 so more broadly I would

01:16:12.120 say generational

01:16:14.000 succession should be thought of as also

01:16:16.000 a good thing

01:16:16.820 not that the conditions are good

01:16:20.080 conditions in which to

01:16:22.000 become the most important part of the electorate

01:16:23.900 these are bad conditions

01:16:25.000 just very bad

01:16:26.700 but it's still better to become more important

01:16:29.720 and less important

01:16:30.640 And I think I see in a lot of European right-wing movements, since I was in Nathcon Jerusalem, I spent a week talking to young Israelis, a lot of the same complaints and a lot of the same demands.

01:16:47.020 And there are some obvious bases, anti-feminism, but complaints about old guys who pull the ladders up behind them or don't take seriously how difficult it is for young guys.

01:16:57.960 there is there is something of an experience on the basis of which you can say i know what they're

01:17:03.580 going through they might understand some of what we're going through some things we might even you

01:17:07.560 know not that we'll align interests on or have an alliance but even if we don't it's no hard

01:17:12.160 feelings because i understand what they're going through they understand what i'm going through and

01:17:15.300 like it's just not possible to do anything um so i'm not saying we should be falling in love with

01:17:20.880 anybody i'm just saying the basis for a decision should not be uh you know old experience or the

01:17:25.940 old rhetoric or people who are going out rather

01:17:27.940 than people who are coming in.

01:17:30.080 Alliances are oriented to the future,

01:17:31.940 not the past. The past

01:17:33.960 should always count, of course, but

01:17:35.420 still, it's got to be practical.

01:17:37.940 It's got to be something you can actually choose, and nobody

01:17:39.940 can choose another past.

01:17:42.200 Not a lot of people understand that. 0.98

01:17:45.680 Younger people can understand, but old people, for 1.00

01:17:47.820 obvious reasons, don't. 1.00

01:17:51.200 Alright, well,

01:17:52.020 this has been a

01:17:52.920 wide-ranging discussion on the conservative

01:17:55.840 coalition but i definitely appreciate you coming on uh obviously we are pre-recorded today guys

01:18:01.200 so we can't take any questions sorry about that but titus before we go is there anywhere you want

01:18:06.320 to point people anything you're working on that you want people to be aware of uh oh thanks man

01:18:11.280 uh yeah just follow me on next on titus film i do a lot of criticism not just politics a lot of

01:18:16.880 culture stuff i do political philosophy i edit the journal i write on this stuff so uh you know

01:18:23.360 follow me and we'll just have a better conversation uh in some sense it's our time coming so let's

01:18:28.720 make the most of it all right guys well thank you for watching you should check out his work

01:18:33.920 and of course if it's your first time on this channel you need to subscribe click the bell

01:18:37.600 notifications so you know when we go live if you want to get these broadcast as podcasts and you

01:18:41.440 need to subscribe to the or mac entire show on your favorite podcast platform thanks for

01:18:45.100 watching and as always i'll talk to you next time

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The Auron MacIntyre Show - October 28, 2026

Why the Conservative Coalition Is a Disaster ｜ Guest： Titus Techera ｜ 10⧸28⧸26

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