The Critical Compass Podcast - DEBATE ｜ Bruce Pardy & Stockwell Day on Alberta Independence

00:00:00.000 And my question for all those people who want to stay and try and change it is, how are

00:00:06.000 you going to change the Canadian character?

00:00:11.540 Not even the Constitution.

00:00:12.540 I mean, that's an impossible task.

00:00:15.320 But to change the Constitution, you must change the Canadian character first.

00:00:19.760 Folks, these things are going to take years.

00:00:24.080 And I'll tell you something about investment.

00:00:26.500 Investment is not like uncertainty.

00:00:28.500 If a province makes a unilateral declaration of independence and they get international

00:00:35.600 recognition, then that de facto means that they are becoming independent.

00:00:44.140 They were, as you know, the people who signed it, they risked everything, their life, they

00:00:48.340 risked their property, their wealth, everything.

00:00:50.740 What's a rough estimate, Bruce?

00:00:52.520 How many years would it take to negotiate these to where we could be a functioning entity?

00:00:56.160 Just within 10 years.

00:00:58.500 how many years the choice is this you can lie down or you can stand up

00:01:07.060 and all of the people who have a stake in canada remaining as it is are telling you to lie down

00:01:20.980 and with that get ready um should alberta leave canada and become an independent country

00:01:28.500 30 minutes per side, one-hour debate. Let's begin.

00:01:31.860 Thanks, Jason, for hosting this. Folks, thanks for coming out.

00:01:34.320 There's a lot of more exciting things I'm sure you could be doing on an evening like this, but you're here.

00:01:39.740 It's so important that as people that are involved in this, not just by any means, the politicians.

00:01:47.740 Ralph Klein reminded us when the years I served for him that the word politics actually is a combination,

00:01:54.460 is a compound word from the Latin, poly meaning many, and ticks meaning little blood-sucking

00:02:01.120 insects.

00:02:02.280 And so he would always remind us about that.

00:02:06.000 And it's so good to see people here and concern because this is a very concerning matter.

00:02:11.580 Professor Pardee, so great.

00:02:12.720 It's an honor to be here with you.

00:02:14.440 My credentials academically are merely in the shadow of yours.

00:02:19.200 You are so accomplished in all of that and teaching law all around the world.

00:02:23.120 The only match I can have for that is I got in trouble in the law all around the world, but I haven't been able to match your great accomplishments there, and I'm looking forward to more of that.

00:02:34.540 I'm going to start. I didn't expect to do this. I'm going to start with a caveat about my position that we should be staying, and the caveat is just a result of something that happened as recently as yesterday, but something that I predicted on my daily newscast at StockwellDay.com.

00:02:52.120 I predicted this weeks, if not months ago, that you would see our prime minister drawing us closer and closer into the orbit of the EU.

00:03:01.520 And you saw the remarks yesterday. He was welcomed with open arms. We'll find out more in October what that means.

00:03:08.060 But when I think of the EU, I think of a regulatory regime that is almost incomprehensible and has brought the overall GDP of the EU down immeasurably.

00:03:19.160 When I think of their immigration policy, I don't know why we would want to be embracing that, because we've seen how wide open, and you can call it an invasion of immigration, you can see the effects that that has had in the EU. I don't want to be partnering with that.

00:03:34.320 You can see they're joining with the International Criminal Court. I think Canada should be sovereign in that regard. And we shouldn't be subject, as the EU states are, to the courts. And then you saw the leader, Ursula, if I get her name more on a first name basis, you saw her also talking a lot.

00:03:55.460 She jumped right in on the Erasmus program and the prime minister talking about that again today.

00:04:01.160 The Erasmus program is ostensibly to deal with to help youth travel and do international sports and athletics.

00:04:08.900 And when you read through their documents, it is very, very strong on what we would call woke or diversity inclusion and very, very strong on trans being inclusive in sports, that there should be no distinction.

00:04:23.660 So for all of these reasons, I am now putting a caveat because off on October, whatever it is, 29, if the prime minister thinks he's going to sign Canada to behold, be beholden to those type of EU principles, then I'm going to be rethinking my whole proposal about leave or stay.

00:04:42.300 I just want to make that clear. I want to say that and we'll debate this and we'll find out when when the vote actually comes.

00:04:53.660 I want to say that I don't think the vote's going to carry.

00:04:56.400 I don't think you're going to see the 50 percent.

00:04:58.660 Now, don't get upset with me.

00:05:00.180 I've just I've been around for a while.

00:05:02.680 I watch the polls, but only because I'm a recovering politician and I have to look at

00:05:08.640 two or three polls a day or I start to visibly shake.

00:05:12.500 And the one thing I learned about polls over over time, polls can show a trend.

00:05:18.900 And over time, it has consistently been that Albertans would not vote to, in fact, secede.

00:05:25.280 More sovereignty, more autonomy, absolutely yes.

00:05:28.580 But having said that, I feel, and the attendance here tonight would probably, if we took a poll in the room, there's much more intensity.

00:05:36.800 The level of intensity is much stronger for those who would like to leave or establish a different type of association with Canada.

00:05:44.100 So that's where the so-called stay side, if they think everything's just fine and they

00:05:49.560 wind up, if they think stay means stay home, they could lose their home.

00:05:53.500 So they're going to have to be careful on that.

00:05:56.720 I want to say also that I share the grievances and have for every year that I've been in

00:06:02.600 Albertan, for every year I've served in Alberta, I share the grievances and the pain that Albertans

00:06:08.320 have to bear under the unfairness, the imbalance in this present relationship.

00:06:13.320 And long before I was born, and long before any of you were born, we know that Alberta was continually fighting the central government, central Canada, the stronger population base, not because they wanted to take anything from them, but they would not acknowledge the things Alberta was going through.

00:06:31.940 And I share these grievances. I share the grievance about the federal debt. I don't like it. I don't like the fact that we are running out of control, not just at the federal government, but provincially also, and by the way, in cities. And I'm saying this almost daily now on my newscast at StockwellBay.com. Did I say that already?

00:06:51.420 I'm trying to make this very clear

00:06:54.160 That the thing that causes inflation most

00:06:57.360 There are a number of factors

00:06:58.340 But most

00:06:58.980 The thing that causes it most

00:07:00.040 Is governments spending borrowed money

00:07:03.580 So every time you hear a politician

00:07:05.680 I don't care what political stripe

00:07:07.380 Announcing a new spending program

00:07:09.360 It's all borrowed money now

00:07:11.220 So you are losing your power to buy groceries

00:07:14.100 You are getting diminished

00:07:15.880 In terms of what you can pay

00:07:16.960 Your dollars will pay for rent

00:07:18.300 And for house payment

00:07:19.320 I don't like runaway federal debt. I have that grievance that I think you have also. I don't

00:07:25.980 like the present immigration policy that Canada has. It is far too wide open. Of course, immigrants 0.99

00:07:32.020 built this beautiful country and this beautiful province. But a wide open policy can be called

00:07:38.280 an invasion. And that's what we are experiencing. And it is not good. The immigrants who came here

00:07:44.360 in the late 1800s and through the 1900s. They came here to work. There was no welfare for them. 0.66

00:07:50.800 And somebody who is arriving at our doorstep now or on our shores here in Canada should be coming 0.86

00:07:56.480 to work. And there should not be a provision for them of free everything. I don't like this

00:08:03.020 particular policy from the federal government. I don't like the crime policy. I don't like the

00:08:06.680 fact, and you've seen it, where someone who is here illegally, this is happening more and more

00:08:12.260 often, and is found guilty of a violent charge, sometimes a violent sexual charge, more and more 0.65

00:08:18.900 we're seeing the judges appointed by liberals saying, I don't want to deport them back to

00:08:23.700 their country because when they get back there, people might be mean to them. I might not like

00:08:28.000 them. That's wrongheaded policy. I don't like the equalization formula. You know, there's one part

00:08:35.080 of the equalization formula that there's a lot that needs to change. But this sense that the

00:08:39.860 equalization formula is there so that provinces that can't raise, as it's called, a comparable

00:08:47.140 amount of taxes, they can get money from the other provinces that are doing better. That can be a

00:08:53.760 false notion, as it was in 1993, when we had an NDP government in Ontario, Bob Ray, who was a friend

00:09:00.080 of mine. He was premier at the time. He ran the debt up so heavily on socialist programs that it

00:09:06.860 was actually affecting Albertans' ability to borrow. It was affecting our rate. And then

00:09:13.260 Ontario was coming hat in hand because of bad policies and because they weren't willing to

00:09:17.820 bite the bullet like Alberta was and draw spending in, Alberta winds up paying because they say they

00:09:24.360 don't have the same ability to raise taxes. These are odious notions. I don't like the fact that

00:09:32.240 many of the trade agreements that our government has struck are actually hurtful to us. Supply-side

00:09:38.720 agriculture, which benefits about 4,200 dairy farmers in Quebec and about 3,500 in Ontario

00:09:46.080 and about 400 in Alberta, that policy is so odious to other countries. When I would go as

00:09:52.980 Minister of International Trade to strike a trade deal, and I'll use New Zealand as one example,

00:09:58.280 i'll never forget this new zealand back in the late 80s had to bite the bullet bullet scrap all

00:10:02.840 of their subsidy programs to agriculture i'm not suggesting that i'm just telling you they had to

00:10:07.160 do that they had to learn how to be competitive and when i went to meet that international trade

00:10:11.880 minister and talk about getting some more some better trade deals for canada he said to me if

00:10:17.240 you're st if you still have that supply managed uh protectionist tariffs in place for your farmers

00:10:24.440 in quebec and ontario if you think you're going to get a deal out of me he said literally he said

00:10:29.960 it'll be over my dead body that's the type of situations provinces get put in by bad trade

00:10:38.040 policy and so my concern is this if it's a yes even if it's we all recognize that this particular

00:10:47.320 vote for yes is not the vote to secede or to leave. But if it's a yes, it sends a signal that

00:10:54.760 we're going to, we want to start negotiating. And folks, I can just tell you this, from years of

00:11:00.320 negotiating, and call me a bad negotiator if you want, all negotiations take time. They take a huge

00:11:07.160 amount of time. Let me give you one example. South Korea, I was negotiating a trade deal with them,

00:11:13.520 international trade deal, we were getting down to agricultural products and cattle and things like

00:11:19.060 that. Do you know how, I won't even tell you how long, we negotiated and debated just to determine

00:11:26.660 if there was going to be a tariff on the temporal mandibular joint of cattle, that tiny little

00:11:33.520 joint, because that's huge. You can use that in the production of meat. One little thing, now

00:11:38.160 expand that over thousands and thousands of products and services that we are suddenly

00:11:45.580 going to be negotiating, not just with the federal government, but with other governments,

00:11:50.220 the time that this is going to take all over the world. Folks, we still haven't after years,

00:11:56.000 and I say this as someone who represented BC, we still haven't worked out tariffs on wine,

00:12:00.820 let alone the time it's going to take for all of these other ones health care the negotiations that

00:12:08.500 are going to be required there i could go on about pensions and we know by the way cpp can we can

00:12:15.120 have much more control over cpp but pensions and health care first nations can you i'm telling you

00:12:22.660 folks i'm not trying to scare anybody the length of time to negotiate with a treaty six seven and

00:12:28.520 in Alberta. I'm telling you it's years. You're saying, no, you're trying to scare me. No.

00:12:33.120 When I was minister here, responsible for Aboriginal affairs, I can tell you it took

00:12:37.700 over a year just from one ban, the Lubicon ban, good people. It took over a year just to get from 1.00

00:12:44.200 them the accurate data on how many people were living on that particular land. One ban, one

00:12:49.520 tiny little issue. Folks, we are talking about a long period of time. That doesn't even get us

00:12:56.000 to the real constitutional argument. Now, I know my friend will talk about the fact that

00:13:02.100 the negotiations, once you get a clear vote and once it's a clear majority, it's pretty well a

00:13:07.700 done deal. It is not. I was in the House of Commons. I've seen the negotiations. I've seen

00:13:13.880 the other side of that constitutional position. Can you imagine the 750 formula alone, which I

00:13:21.280 I'm adamant on this. You will. It will kick in in some way, shape, or form. There is no automatic

00:13:27.300 dropout. You get a clear vote. Good, we're out. No, it doesn't happen. That's a constitutional

00:13:32.060 change. And between the Constitution of 1982 and the Supreme Court view on the question of secession

00:13:42.760 and then the Clarity Act, no, no, there's going to be a formula that has to kick in.

00:13:47.900 folks, these things are going to take years. And I'll tell you something about investment.

00:13:53.860 Investment is not like uncertainty. We will be years and years negotiating, if it's a successful,

00:14:01.380 yes, on all these other things. And by the way, on a seven and 50 formula, which other provinces

00:14:07.520 are going to stand up and say, yay, we're with Alberta, get them out of here. It's not going to

00:14:12.220 happen. Premier Moe is a friend of mine, but I can tell you he is not going to be voting to opt

00:14:17.920 out of Canada. Getting to 750 and in Parliament is like, I'm a person of faith, so I believe in

00:14:27.340 the impossible, but I don't think heaven itself is going to solve that one. We're looking into

00:14:32.860 years and years of contracted investment in Alberta, increased debt, increased debt spending,

00:14:40.780 the need to increase taxes, which is just about as strong a thing as I can be opposed to.

00:14:47.740 Folks, we need, we can do better. We can do better by voting for the items in the October vote that

00:14:55.040 we want more say in, which is almost all of them like immigration, and continuing the policy that

00:15:00.300 this premier has us on, keeping taxes down, investment doors open, more people coming here,

00:15:06.580 we get more control. Folks, I love Alberta. I believe it can be strong and free,

00:15:12.140 but not by opting out. Thank you.

00:15:21.520 I'd like to thank Stockwell for agreeing to talk with me, because contrary to what he said,

00:15:29.440 his accomplishments and reputation and experience in the world far outweighs my own.

00:15:36.580 And I start this debate a little bit perplexed.

00:15:45.580 About halfway through what Stockwell was saying, it occurred to me that I would just stand up and say what he said and sit down.

00:15:57.160 of all the former politicians out there this one is one of the sharpest arrows in the quiver

00:16:11.680 he gets it on an awful lot of issues that are relevant to alberta and to canada

00:16:20.500 on immigration, on property rights, on COVID, on climate and net zero, on debt and inflation.

00:16:33.940 He and I agree about a lot of things.

00:16:37.800 And so I am perplexed because he does not want Alberta to leave Canada.

00:16:46.960 Because that, to me, is a no-brainer.

00:16:50.500 here's why

00:16:53.320 everything that we agree with

00:16:56.820 we agree about

00:16:58.660 and talk about

00:16:59.840 is an indication

00:17:02.940 a reflection

00:17:03.780 of the fact

00:17:06.340 that Canada

00:17:08.300 is broken

00:17:10.220 it is broken

00:17:12.400 and of all 0.99

00:17:15.160 the people who must

00:17:17.160 know and I think this is part

00:17:19.120 of Stockwell's argument about negotiation.

00:17:22.760 Politicians know, as we all do,

00:17:25.840 that the efforts that have been made

00:17:28.240 over the past decades to fix it,

00:17:34.480 including the various proposals

00:17:36.320 that are maybe on the table now,

00:17:38.280 have not accomplished anything of significance.

00:17:42.600 So my question,

00:17:44.380 for those people who understand,

00:17:47.980 on the one hand,

00:17:49.120 that Canada does not work

00:17:52.120 and on the other hand

00:17:55.320 don't want Alberta to leave

00:17:57.540 my question for them is

00:17:59.660 what is your plan

00:18:04.320 to fix it

00:18:06.280 to actually fix it

00:18:09.320 I hope it's not

00:18:11.060 well let's just carry on

00:18:13.180 and keep doing what we're doing

00:18:15.900 because that has led us nowhere

00:18:18.340 nowhere you're getting no change except bad change things are going downhill

00:18:27.340 we wait and you wait and you wait and you wait and you wait some more so if you're going to have

00:18:37.260 to wait you might as well wait during negotiations for independence then to wait to see when the

00:18:46.100 powers that be in this country might possibly, impossibly agree to fundamentally reform this

00:18:55.940 country. Now, when I say fix it, I'm not talking fiddling at the edges. I'm not talking policy

00:19:06.320 improvements. I am talking reforming this country at its core. I'm talking not just

00:19:16.360 constitutional change. I'm talking a different model of constitution altogether. And I'm

00:19:24.640 sure you all realize that that kind of constitutional change for Canada as a country is next to

00:19:33.280 impossible. When Danielle Smith wrote to Mark Carney maybe 18 months ago to list her nine

00:19:43.280 grievances, you know, tanker bans and emissions caps and pipeline problems and plastic regulations

00:19:52.680 and so on, you know, valid grievances, things that were getting in the way of Alberta's

00:20:00.680 resource industries. Those were valid, but they're not the problem. They are the symptoms

00:20:11.860 of the problem. So let's go one layer deeper. Talk about the Senate and about federal judicial

00:20:22.480 appointments and federal interference in provincial jurisdiction and representation in the House.

00:20:30.680 Equalization.

00:20:33.640 Those are getting closer to fundamental things.

00:20:36.700 Some of them are constitutional.

00:20:38.520 Some of them would require constitutional amendments to fix, which are not going to happen.

00:20:46.640 But let's go still one layer deeper.

00:20:52.560 This country is broken in a fundamental way.

00:20:56.680 If you like, the founding story or ethos of Canada is in opposition to that of the United States.

00:21:12.260 Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

00:21:16.260 No.

00:21:16.500 this country unfortunately you could make the case was based upon deference to authority

00:21:27.040 and that is what's happening right now or at least trying to happen right now certain people

00:21:33.100 and particularly amongst our political elites are demanding that alberta defer to authority

00:21:42.760 because that is what it has always done.

00:21:47.960 And that is what the way that Alberta was created.

00:21:51.500 Alberta was created to be a resource colony of the Laurentian Empire.

00:22:03.600 And it remains so today.

00:22:05.740 So, I think we have here a binary choice.

00:22:15.480 It's either status quo that may, in fact, worsen over time, or it is a new future as an independent country.

00:22:27.980 Now, Stockwell is right that the future of that path is uncertain.

00:22:35.740 I don't think you should listen to people who say,

00:22:38.980 we know exactly how this is going to go.

00:22:41.200 Here's one, here's two, here's three, here's the timeline.

00:22:44.600 Things don't work out that way.

00:22:47.800 But political disruption is the point.

00:22:53.860 If what you want is certainty, then stick with the status quo,

00:23:00.540 because that's certain to be not good for you on an ongoing basis.

00:23:07.200 And if you want a political adventure, because after all,

00:23:11.740 independence is nothing less than a political revolution.

00:23:18.040 And you've got to be prepared for some bumps along the road.

00:23:21.840 So I don't doubt that there may be bumps, but watch this.

00:23:26.460 Look at this.

00:23:27.060 Because the thing that is Alberta's biggest problem as a province is the same thing that threatens Alberta during these negotiations.

00:23:41.140 And what is that?

00:23:42.300 Well, it's easy.

00:23:44.340 That's Canada.

00:23:45.980 If negotiations are a problem and they go on and on and on and on and can't get results, whose fault is that?

00:23:54.380 the same entity you're trying to escape.

00:23:59.380 That's not a vindication for what you're trying to escape.

00:24:05.160 That's an indication that what you're trying to do

00:24:07.540 is exactly what you need to do.

00:24:12.080 And on the EU, again, I agree with Stockwell

00:24:15.140 about the terrible idea joining the EU would be.

00:24:21.060 But I must point out, his description of the EU, I think, is perfectly accurate.

00:24:29.040 He called it a regulatory regime that is incomprehensible.

00:24:35.840 That is true.

00:24:38.500 But you could say the same thing about the regime you have thrust upon you right now.

00:24:47.140 And the good news for Alberta about the prospects of Canada joining the EU is that in this process that hopefully you will enter into, you will get a two-for-one special.

00:25:06.680 You can leave Canada and leave the EU all at the same time.

00:25:15.800 Over to you.

00:25:17.880 Bruce, you've correctly analyzed that things need to change, but you're presenting as if

00:25:23.700 the corpse is already in place, as if Alberta is a dead place, as if none of us have anything here.

00:25:32.120 We've all, most of us here, have homes. We have some kind of income, most, maybe not all.

00:25:38.640 We have a way of life that actually compared to 96% of the rest of the world is superior,

00:25:47.140 But it could be better. I'm talking about taking what we have and making it better. You're talking

00:25:54.320 about stopping the ambulance, dragging the body out to the side of the road, and starting surgery

00:25:59.640 while all the other cars are going by. No, this is not a stop process. This is continued improvement

00:26:06.420 that we have to work on and have to continue to see and fight hard for it. By making the case,

00:26:12.820 I can remember first time I went to Newfoundland and Labrador as an elected person. And I was there

00:26:19.700 with a happy band of little soldiers. We were elected here in Alberta. Jim Horstman, some of

00:26:24.220 you remember him. He was leading up Senate reform. And we went from province to province. And everybody

00:26:30.600 told us, and the media told us, you will never, you will never get Senate reform. Other provinces

00:26:38.220 agreeing to an equal number of centers.

00:26:40.940 I can remember when I landed in Newfoundland

00:26:43.000 and I was in the cab going to the legislature.

00:26:48.800 Joey Smallwood at the time was in the hospital.

00:26:51.480 Those of you who were here born before electricity was invented,

00:26:55.180 remember, Joey Smallwood was the last father of Confederation.

00:26:59.300 He negotiated Newfoundland and Labrador coming into Canada.

00:27:02.620 When they took that vote in 1949, remember how close it was?

00:27:06.080 Like 1%, almost like Quebec.

00:27:08.220 in 95. It was very close. Brought them in. And now he's in the hospital and he's on the sickbed.

00:27:13.800 And I thought I would, you know, befriend myself, show to the cab driver, show some sympathy. I said,

00:27:21.200 I hear your former premier is in the hospital. And he said, yes, but he is. And if I could go

00:27:27.000 into that hospital room, I'd strangle him myself. It shows that even then there's strong feelings 0.90

00:27:33.520 on both sides of this equation.

00:27:36.200 But parking the body in the hospital bed,

00:27:40.180 that will get us nothing.

00:27:41.560 We'll lose what we have.

00:27:43.780 People internationally are not going to deal with us

00:27:46.760 when we vote.

00:27:47.760 We want out of Canada.

00:27:49.100 And the court itself said this,

00:27:51.840 a yes vote, even with whatever the majority is,

00:27:55.020 a clear vote is not the finish line.

00:27:57.820 It's the starting gun.

00:28:00.500 It just starts.

00:28:01.820 But I'll tell you what does stop. Every major investment, many of which are coming into Alberta

00:28:07.340 now, despite the problems we have with Ottawa, screeches to a stop. Major investment has learned

00:28:14.480 their lesson dealing with a federal government where you can't count on them to approve

00:28:19.620 environmental standards, for instance, on projects that go on for 15 years. If you thought the federal

00:28:25.700 government could slow it down, you wait and see how no government slows it down. Investment just

00:28:30.400 doesn't work that way. I don't invest in companies that are going into a country where we don't have

00:28:35.960 any idea what the rules are. So, Bruce would rather work on the corpse. I would rather work

00:28:44.820 on energize and improve the abilities of the living mechanism, which is in Alberta. There's

00:28:52.180 a Bible verse that says, they desire a better country. They desire a better country. Well,

00:28:57.980 desire a better province and as we went from province to province we were told you're never

00:29:04.300 ever going to get senate reform that would be crazy and you remember the discussions first it

00:29:10.220 was meach lake and then the charlottetown accords we were shocked but we had done our work and we'd

00:29:16.220 won provinces agreeing to equality in the senate and to elected senators we were told it would

00:29:26.620 never happened. It happened. And then, as you know, it went to a vote across the country,

00:29:31.420 and some of the people who had been the strongest proponents of the triple E said, yeah, okay,

00:29:37.700 we got elected, and okay, we got equal, but effective isn't quite good enough. I go, well,

00:29:43.760 it's a start. You improve from where you land, and you keep going. The process in Canada has

00:29:51.920 always been ongoing improvement with some setbacks. We achieved it, folks. We had it there

00:29:57.920 at Charlottetown. There were things in Charlottetown I didn't like. I remember people saying,

00:30:02.540 Quebec can't be recognized as some kind of special entity. And yet we did anyway later on.

00:30:08.920 We got mad. We made a great step forward. Senate reform, we had it. Two and a half ease,

00:30:15.500 we could have got the second half later on. More negotiations. These things can be achieved if

00:30:20.960 you're focused, if you're tough. And while you're doing it, you continue to allow your people to

00:30:26.620 keep working. To keep working, at the time when I was Minister of Finance, we put in, first time in

00:30:32.660 the history of Canada, a single rate tax. Some people call it a flat tax. We were told, you can

00:30:38.840 never do that. We did it. Ralph Klein had the vision to allow that to happen. And as we did that,

00:30:45.920 people started coming to alberta people were coming and not just because of our fiscal programs

00:30:52.160 i remember talking to a mom who had a a young boy who was severe autistic she said i want you to know

00:31:01.440 i moved to alberta because alberta has the best social programs for people severely in need how

00:31:08.320 did we have that because we had an economy that was roaring because we had reduced regulation we had

00:31:15.600 had reduced taxes, we had promised longevity, and more and more people kept coming here.

00:31:21.780 When you get more people coming to your province, you have more power. You have more sway.

00:31:27.140 We made gains. We can continue to make gains. It's going to be tough, but we can continue

00:31:32.780 to make gains. So I believe in improvement. I don't believe in dragging the ailing patient

00:31:39.880 out of the ambulance and working on them on the side of the road while other cars pass

00:31:44.280 us by and we will be passed by in terms of opportunities for ourselves for our business

00:31:50.120 for our kids for our grandkids we need to keep on folks we've proved we can do it in the past

00:31:56.240 it's not easy nobody said it would be but we can see a better province

00:32:01.800 charlatan failed but if it has succeeded

00:32:10.200 it would not have even started to fix the problems in this country.

00:32:18.640 We are talking about different universes of conceptions about what is needed.

00:32:24.500 The kinds of things that Stockwell is talking about don't measure in my books.

00:32:31.440 He is talking about the risk of negotiations, what might happen after a vote.

00:32:38.160 And he's quite right.

00:32:40.200 The vote, if successful, is just the beginning.

00:32:44.920 But the concern seems to be that negotiations will take a long, long, long time.

00:32:54.080 If they do, or if they start to, that will be because, I would predict,

00:33:03.900 that Canada is not negotiating in good faith.

00:33:08.340 And the Supreme Court of Canada has said something about this in the 1998 reference case decision they made about Quebec.

00:33:19.120 In that case, they said that a vote for independence is a mandate to negotiate the departure of that province.

00:33:30.340 It creates not a right to leave immediately, but a mandate to negotiate.

00:33:36.840 And that mandate applies to both sides to negotiate in good faith.

00:33:43.580 Now, what are the nature of these negotiations?

00:33:48.340 The court went out of its way to say that those negotiations are political and not legal

00:33:57.080 in the sense that there are no predetermined outcomes required by law in those negotiations.

00:34:06.840 only the expectation of good faith now what happens if one of those sides does not conduct

00:34:15.560 themselves with good faith what happens if canada refuses to make a deal in reasonable amount of

00:34:23.560 time with reasonable conditions what happens the court made a point of saying essentially

00:34:31.080 don't come running back to us.

00:34:34.600 These are political negotiations,

00:34:36.700 not legal negotiations.

00:34:39.100 So what would Alberta do?

00:34:43.120 What should Alberta do 0.90

00:34:45.300 if you find yourself in this quandary?

00:34:47.980 You've voted for independence.

00:34:50.680 You've entered into negotiations.

00:34:54.400 The other party is not negotiating angry fates.

00:34:58.620 They are delaying.

00:34:59.860 They are preventing.

00:35:01.080 They are trying to scuttle the project.

00:35:04.500 What do you do?

00:35:07.040 Well, there's a possibility that even the Supreme Court acknowledged

00:35:10.460 that it would not be consistent with the way our Canadian Constitution is laid out.

00:35:16.880 But, in the scenario I've just painted,

00:35:21.580 Canada is not behaving in accordance with those expectations.

00:35:24.820 So what do you do?

00:35:25.760 Well, if you have the right leaders in place and you are unable to make progress in good faith negotiations with Canada, that is the moment when a unilateral declaration of independence is appropriate.

00:35:44.100 That is what it's there for.

00:35:47.540 Now, Stockwell is talking about risk, and I don't want to downplay risk.

00:35:52.440 There is risk in this, of course.

00:35:54.980 Risk is what you're looking for.

00:35:58.600 But the risk of staying is greater.

00:36:02.000 And I'm sorry I don't agree with Stockwell about the prospects for fundamental, meaningful change in this country.

00:36:11.080 I've referred to the constitutional problems, the need for a different kind of constitution, which is not going to happen.

00:36:18.560 But let's go even further.

00:36:19.980 Part of the problem is that the culture of Alberta is different than the culture of much of the rest of the country.

00:36:32.360 If you like, the problem is the Canadian character.

00:36:39.940 Let's just think for a moment.

00:36:42.240 Think for a moment if you could create in your mind the average Canadian.

00:36:48.080 Now, I know Canada is made up of a whole bunch of individuals who are different.

00:36:52.440 They're all different, of course.

00:36:54.660 But if you can imagine the stereotypical average Canadian

00:36:58.120 who believes in and reflects this thing called the Canadian consensus,

00:37:06.420 what does that person believe?

00:37:11.340 Well, let's just consider a short list.

00:37:14.700 They believe in the elbows up.

00:37:18.080 They believe that China is a friend and the U.S. is an enemy.

00:37:23.540 They believe in climate measures and net zero.

00:37:26.840 They believe that climate catastrophe is the thing most serious that threatens the end of humankind.

00:37:34.460 They believe that the liberals are the natural national governing party.

00:37:40.980 They believe in decolonization and reconciliation, in two-tier rights.

00:37:49.720 They believe in cultural self-loathing.

00:37:55.640 They believe, I'm sorry, they do, they believe that Alberta's resources belong to Canada, Constitution notwithstanding.

00:38:10.980 And they embrace, tend to embrace mediocrity with a good slice of moral superiority thrown in.

00:38:23.940 This is the country you are trying to leave.

00:38:28.240 And if you are going to leave it, you must change it.

00:38:34.800 And my question for all those people who want to stay and try and change it is,

00:38:39.280 how are you going to change the Canadian character?

00:38:45.580 Not even the Constitution.

00:38:47.500 I mean, that's an impossible task.

00:38:49.760 But to change the Constitution,

00:38:51.520 you must change the Canadian character first.

00:38:56.180 That is the kind of task you have before you.

00:39:00.280 And so compared to that task,

00:39:02.860 the kind of risk that Stockwell is citing

00:39:07.560 not that big a deal folks your future lies in only one direction and that is a way

00:39:18.280 well bruce you've uh we we share the same views about some of the quirks unfortunately of the

00:39:26.960 so-called canadian character there is no 100 unified canadian character i just want to ask

00:39:31.400 you something. Either in the Constitutional Agreement of 1982, or the reference of the

00:39:38.220 Supreme Court on this question, or the Clarity Act, please cite me where it says, if there's

00:39:43.980 bad faith negotiations, you can unilaterally drop out. Could you show me that?

00:39:51.560 Yeah, in the—

00:39:52.660 I can paraphrase for you.

00:39:54.940 No, I want to know which of those three constitutional—

00:39:58.400 Oh, it's in the reference case about Quebec, 1998.

00:40:02.820 You can show that.

00:40:04.300 It's at the back of the test.

00:40:05.360 We must have it here, because that's monumental.

00:40:06.960 I never knew that existed.

00:40:09.460 And you can imagine just trying to say, we think it's bad faith.

00:40:14.360 No, it isn't.

00:40:14.980 Yes, it is.

00:40:15.540 No, it isn't.

00:40:16.060 Yes, it is.

00:40:17.060 Who would even decide that?

00:40:18.380 I just want the citation, Bruce.

00:40:20.320 Where does it say?

00:40:22.360 Could someone read it to me?

00:40:24.240 Yeah, no, read it to me where it says,

00:40:26.520 if there's bargaining and back faith,

00:40:29.300 you can unilaterally

00:40:30.740 withdraw from Canada. Show me where

00:40:32.760 it says that.

00:40:34.600 No, no, I need it now. People are

00:40:36.580 watching. This is so fundamental.

00:40:38.680 I'm shocked you don't have it.

00:40:40.820 I can respond to your

00:40:42.660 question. Yeah, I just want the citation.

00:40:44.740 Okay. The response to your

00:40:46.720 question is

00:40:47.400 that's not exactly what they say.

00:40:50.500 It's not what I said. What I said...

00:40:52.240 No, Ruth, I heard you say it. Sorry to interrupt.

00:40:54.300 You said...

00:40:56.340 If there is bargaining and bad faith, there can be a unilateral declaration.

00:41:00.380 No, there might.

00:41:01.520 Oh, might.

00:41:02.380 Okay, might.

00:41:03.440 Just be honest with the folks here.

00:41:05.160 No, no.

00:41:05.480 Might.

00:41:05.800 But here is what the Supreme Court said.

00:41:07.940 They said that they're not endorsing this, but they said, look, we have to essentially,

00:41:14.260 I'm going to paraphrase.

00:41:15.420 I'd like the citation.

00:41:16.720 I have to paraphrase the Bible into something very different than what was written.

00:41:20.260 I want the citation.

00:41:21.180 We have to accept reality, in a sense, what they said.

00:41:23.760 If a party, a province, and they're talking about Quebec, of course, if a province makes a unilateral declaration of independence and they get international recognition, then that de facto means that they are becoming independent.

00:41:43.220 Well, first of all, I don't think it reads that, but now you see you have really broadened it.

00:41:47.580 International recognition from who?

00:41:49.320 The EU is going to get Mexico, maybe?

00:41:52.800 maybe China. Who's going to agree to that? Yay, Alberta, drop out. I need the citation, 0.71

00:41:58.760 and you're not giving it to me. Oh, I'll think it up for you during Q&A,

00:42:02.280 but it's probably going to be the U.S., right?

00:42:07.560 Oh, oh, now we're kind of getting closer to that. Probably going to be the U.S.

00:42:13.000 Well, nobody knows, right? You're talking about risk, and there is a lot of risk in this. Nobody

00:42:16.800 knows what's going to happen. Remember the risks that the Americans took to become independent

00:42:24.180 from the king. Oh, wow. Okay. So are you suggesting, and they knew it may well come

00:42:29.740 as it did to taking up arms. Are you prepared to do that? No, that was their risk. They were,

00:42:35.460 as you know, the people who signed it, they risked everything, their life,

00:42:39.300 they risked their property, their wealth, everything. So are you suggesting this could

00:42:43.420 come to taking up barns that is the u.s process right this could have come to that i don't know

00:42:50.780 what we'll come to but yes but the choice is this folks the choice is this you can lie down

00:42:59.020 or you can stand up and all of the people who have a stake in canada remaining as it is

00:43:06.380 are telling you to lie down and behave and don't risk all these things that might that might happen

00:43:14.660 there are lots of things that might happen if you're not prepared for the unknown then don't

00:43:20.900 do this there's going to be a lot of unknown in this so bruce let me ask you because this is just

00:43:25.940 this is the short list okay this is the short list um well the debt we have to decide that

00:43:32.020 question. I know you've seen the figure out there. It's 1.3 trillion. It's horrific. And we've 12.2

00:43:37.580 of the population. So, you know, it's going to be X number of billions. It's big, whatever the

00:43:43.740 number is. Then the assets, the time it's going to take to settle that. I don't know if you've

00:43:48.380 ever tried to sell your property to somebody who's negotiating how long that takes. We're talking

00:43:51.760 about debt and assets, old age security. There's a fun one. How about employment insurance,

00:43:56.840 veteran services, federal public servants, what do we do there? How about the indigenous have 1.00

00:44:02.460 already talked about that? That's multi-year. That is multi-year. The border questions, 0.83

00:44:07.820 national defense, foreign affairs, intelligence, national security. What's a rough estimate,

00:44:12.240 Bruce? How many years would it take to negotiate these to where we could be a functioning entity?

00:44:16.740 Just within 10 years. How many years? The proposition, though, is that Alberta can't

00:44:23.600 do this on its own in a reasonable timeline without Canada. The Canadian government does

00:44:31.540 all of these important things that Alberta would have too much difficulty taking over in a short

00:44:37.200 amount of time, and therefore it can't be done. The idea that Alberta cannot successfully exist

00:44:44.920 without Canada is absurd. Yeah, and I didn't hear anybody here suggest that. I simply asked

00:44:51.100 the question, because I know a little bit about negotiations at a very basic and simple level,

00:44:56.040 how long they take. That list that I just gave you, about how many years would it take

00:45:01.280 to get something substantive? Oh, I have no idea. I have no idea how long it would be.

00:45:06.560 That's a disservice to these good people. I can tell you many, many years, many years

00:45:11.320 where investors and others are thinking, whoa, you don't have stuff. When we decided we would

00:45:17.760 go ahead. I'm just going to use this example with the so-called flat tax. Do you know who came to

00:45:21.940 tell? Moody's investment services, Standard & Poor's. They come up, they go through all your

00:45:28.540 books. They say, if we're going to give you a credit rating, we've got to see what you've got

00:45:33.180 here. And we spent months with those people on one little thing, a tax adjustment. This type of

00:45:40.480 stuff that we're... Who's going to be the lender of last resort to Alberta? But you are...

00:45:45.820 Bruce, who's going to be proposing?

00:45:47.580 You are invoking the Canadian way of solving problems.

00:45:53.360 Oh, excuse me, by asking questions?

00:45:55.620 I thought that was a Socratic method.

00:45:57.180 Do you know how long the provinces have pretended to negotiate an end to trade barriers between themselves?

00:46:05.500 You make my point exactly.

00:46:06.400 It has been decades.

00:46:08.500 So, Bruce, there are still more restrictions for some products between provinces than there are even now between some provinces and the U.S.

00:46:17.800 The Canadian way is to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and to give it over to bureaucrats to talk some more.

00:46:26.220 Okay, what's your way?

00:46:26.940 If Alberta gets its stuff prepared and is ready to do whatever is necessary to become independent and to get out from under the thumb of the Canadian way, then it will negotiate with Canada in a very short order or it will tell Canada, sorry, we're gone.

00:46:51.280 Okay. First of all, there's no Supreme Court that says that can happen. But what you said

00:46:55.560 a short order, so I'm getting here timeline now. So you don't think it's a long time.

00:46:59.860 I've been involved in negotiations that take a long time, but you think it's going to be short

00:47:03.140 a year? You're sounding a lot like you're here. No, no, no. You've got people. There's a couple

00:47:07.600 people here that I see, I'm guessing are probably seniors, just a couple. What reassurance are you

00:47:14.600 giving them about their seniors programs? How long is it going to take? Are we going to take

00:47:18.480 those over. What about their pensions? What about health care? We just want an idea.

00:47:23.920 Let's try this. So if we delay this because negotiations may take a long time,

00:47:34.780 when it actually happens, aren't the negotiations still going to take a long time?

00:47:41.920 Isn't it better to start now? Even if it takes a long time, isn't it better to start now? What

00:47:47.060 you're saying is sorry it's going to take a long time so wait well if you'll wait then the end of

00:47:53.440 the road is ever more further away so whatever whatever transpires the best time to start is

00:48:01.940 now we continue absolutely who said wait and stop we've been negotiating for a long time we've got

00:48:08.300 a fairly good perfect province no a lot of grievances with ottawa yes and we need to

00:48:15.200 continue to keep improving. But if this imaginary, magical, which I don't believe exists,

00:48:23.780 Declaration of Independence exists, which it does not, it does not, not at the Supreme Court,

00:48:31.180 everything screeches to a stop. And people who are looking at Alberta to come here to invest,

00:48:37.100 to live, they don't know what's going on. No, we keep this economy going. I like a lot of the

00:48:42.940 things premier smith is doing we've got an economy that's going a lot of people are working we've got

00:48:47.340 great opportunity we just landed a big ai center that's gonna scare some people we've got some 1.00

00:48:52.300 great stuff going let's keep it going but to screech it to a stop by saying we're out of here

00:48:58.800 other businesses other people farmers doctors whoever research people are gonna go okay call

00:49:06.280 us when the negotiations are over we didn't realize you're screeching to a stop you're saying

00:49:10.940 screech to a stop. I say we keep on going and we keep on improving. So the situation that will

00:49:17.000 exist the day after the vote is the same that it exists the day before the vote. When you actually

00:49:24.260 become independent is when all the new rules come into place. What will happen at that moment

00:49:29.420 is that this regulatory regime that is incomprehensible on the part of both Canada

00:49:36.820 and the EU will go away, and you will become the most attractive, one of the most attractive

00:49:43.800 jurisdictions around for investment, lack of red tape, low taxes, consistency, stability.

00:49:53.400 Alberta will be, I would guess, and it's only a guess because nobody can tell this for sure,

00:49:58.880 but I would guess Alberta will continue to be, compared to the rest of Canada, the most

00:50:05.320 prosperous area in the country per capita and probably more. When what happens, Bruce?

00:50:11.560 When you become independent. And you fail to say how that's going to happen.

00:50:17.740 Even with an amendment, and even some of the judges say 7 and 50, you know, some of the judges

00:50:22.580 even say 7 and 50 might not be enough because there's the whole unanimity clause. So, Bruce,

00:50:31.020 you still are failing to tell

00:50:33.780 people. A ballpark figure.

00:50:36.380 How long do we hang

00:50:37.700 in limbo with all these negotiations

00:50:40.140 while investors go

00:50:41.860 what about the banks? Who's going to be

00:50:43.820 the lender of last resort to Alberta?

00:50:45.980 Let me repeat what I said about the

00:50:47.800 Supreme Court. Supreme Court said

00:50:49.720 back to the other question

00:50:51.940 who's going to be the

00:50:53.680 you've thought it out I'm sure.

00:50:55.240 You can't proceed if you don't

00:50:57.780 have a lender of last resort. Nobody

00:50:59.580 goes near you. Who's Alberta's lender of last resort? Oh, my goodness. These are details that

00:51:04.420 the people inside the government of Alberta who are in charge of this process to do the negotiation

00:51:10.220 will figure out as they go along. I thought you said these people can't be trusted.

00:51:18.460 You will have to have some trust in the political leaders you have at the moment of independence.

00:51:25.300 If Alberta has a set of political leaders at the time of the vote to conduct the negotiations that you do not trust, and that's a possibility, well, then this might not go very well.

00:51:39.420 What you really need is a set of leaders who say, independence or bust.

00:51:44.820 We have our marching orders from the Supreme Court, and we will do whatever is necessary.

00:51:50.300 What marching orders from the Supreme Court?

00:51:52.340 The marching orders that say if you have a successful referendum vote on a clear question with a clear majority—

00:51:59.200 You start negotiations.

00:52:00.400 No, no.

00:52:01.060 No, no.

00:52:02.580 That creates—

00:52:03.580 Bruce, that creates—this is the Supreme Court speaking.

00:52:06.900 That creates the obligation—

00:52:09.180 Obligation.

00:52:10.080 To negotiate.

00:52:10.720 To negotiate the departure—

00:52:13.200 Thank you.

00:52:13.600 The departure—the departure of the province that has voted to leave.

00:52:20.340 So, in other words, if one of the—this is the question that you asked me—if one of those parties refuses to negotiate to achieve that aim, that is, refuses to allow the party to—the province to go, that is a violation of the guidelines that the Supreme Court laid out.

00:52:40.280 And after that, first of all, Bruce, you still haven't cited me where it says you can unilaterally bail out.

00:52:49.980 And secondly, because the federal government, obviously, and most of the provinces, most of the provinces want to stay together.

00:52:55.720 That's just fact. Most of the citizens do.

00:52:58.740 You think one of those is going to trigger this imaginary trigger that you're talking about to boot it out?

00:53:07.460 Let's read it. Let's read.

00:53:08.720 To the extent that a breach of the constitutional duty to negotiate, in accordance with the principle described above, undermines its legitimacy of a party's actions—let's talk about Canada—it may have important ramifications at the international level, thus a failure of the duty to undertake negotiations and pursue them according to constitutional principles, that is, you have an obligation to negotiate for the departure of the party.

00:53:38.720 May undermine that government's claim to legitimacy, which is generally a precondition for recognition by the international community.

00:53:48.200 Conversely, I can go on.

00:53:49.540 I just want the citation that says we can unilaterally declare it.

00:53:54.700 I didn't say that's what it said.

00:53:56.380 I said that the Supreme Court—

00:53:57.680 I will check the tape for tomorrow night.

00:53:59.620 I guarantee you said that, Bruce.

00:54:00.820 I said the Supreme Court recognizes the reality—

00:54:03.260 I think we should keep this up.

00:54:04.500 Can we keep this up, Jason?

00:54:06.260 So people can see that it's not there.

00:54:07.960 It's not there. And folks, this is emotional stuff. I agree. I love this country, but I love

00:54:16.780 this province. And you have to be able to accept fact because it's your future. Just accept fact.

00:54:23.820 Where here does it say that you can unilaterally declare independence if you don't like the way

00:54:31.480 it's going? It will be noted that question one does not ask how secession could be achieved

00:54:36.380 in a constitutional manner but addresses one form of secession only namely unilateral secession

00:54:42.700 it says it addresses it where where if you the question if you read does not ask how it can be

00:54:50.760 achieved well if you read it says what if you're not making progress it where you said unilaterally

00:54:56.300 unilaterally we can declare it it didn't say that if you read these i think we should keep

00:55:02.060 If you read these late paragraphs of the decision, you will see a recognition by the Supreme Court that in the event that a province makes a unilateral declaration of independence and is recognized by the international community, Supreme Court recognizes that, in fact, de facto, it's kind of done.

00:55:23.680 It doesn't say that's in accordance with the law they're setting out.

00:55:26.920 In other words, it is not in accordance with the law of Canada.

00:55:32.060 But one other thing it does say is that independence is a repudiation of the existing constitutional order of the country you are leaving.

00:55:49.940 For sure.

00:55:51.600 But that includes the process of getting out.

00:56:02.060 I love you, Jason. So are you, as moderator, like linked arms with the buddy here? I don't mind two-on-one. It's fine. I've faced big rods in that.

00:56:11.380 It's not two-on-one. You specifically asked me to cite it and bring it up, so I did.

00:56:14.200 No, I just asked you to bring it up on the screen.

00:56:15.940 Okay.

00:56:17.500 So once again, folks, the citation for unilaterally pull out, unless, now Bruce, and I'm saying this sincerely, needs to clarify.

00:56:27.160 When the colonies did that south of us, it was very clear that violence could ensue and that armed uprising would probably be the result.

00:56:38.520 But basically, when you have a unilateral declaration, it's pretty well the only way it happens.

00:56:45.420 Bruce, are you preparing for that eventuality?

00:56:49.180 Are you asking me if I'm endorsing violence?

00:56:51.680 The answer is no.

00:56:52.200 No, I didn't ask you.

00:56:53.120 Are you prepared for the fact that, because you cited it in the U.S., that the eventual situation might have to be that Albertans would take up arms?

00:57:03.560 I didn't say that.

00:57:05.080 Okay.

00:57:05.640 Would you endorse that if it came to?

00:57:07.160 No, I would not endorse it.

00:57:08.060 Okay. All right. Thanks for clarifying. Appreciate that.

00:57:13.260 Two more minutes? Okay. One or two.

00:57:18.660 You know what, folks? These things just, they take so long.

00:57:25.680 That's not to mean we shouldn't try.

00:57:28.240 Some people say you can never get improvements with the United States, for instance.

00:57:32.660 You can't make headway. No, we made great headway with them before this present prime minister.

00:57:38.060 we made a lot of headway. We made headway where people were saying, you can't do it.

00:57:43.780 But if I walked into any of the rooms that I walked into internationally to engage people,

00:57:49.420 especially financially, and said, we're independent now, we're going to go independent,

00:57:54.740 we think the country's going to cut us loose. There's not one negotiator in the world who

00:58:00.500 would start negotiations and say, well, what is your status? We think we're independent.

00:58:04.920 And we saw Jason put up on a screen some words there that kind of almost said that.

00:58:12.740 So now, will you negotiate, for instance, free trade on agriculture and wheat?

00:58:18.720 And they don't know who they're negotiating with.

00:58:21.140 They don't know what we stand for.

00:58:22.700 You can't get to that place.

00:58:24.280 You could, maybe, if you got seven and 50, seven of the provinces, 50% of the population, and parliament, maybe.

00:58:34.080 But exactly, that ain't going to happen.

00:58:37.460 Folks, this is not going to happen.

00:58:40.740 Not in our lifetime.

00:58:42.380 But what can happen in our lifetime, improved economy, better deals, more people moving here because we're still within this imperfect confederation.

00:58:52.320 Think of the word confederation.

00:58:55.420 Confederation.

00:58:56.640 We are not a unitary state.

00:58:58.600 We already are con.

00:59:01.120 We are confederation.

00:59:03.280 And within that confederation, we can have a pretty healthy, perfect lifestyle.

00:59:08.780 Not perfect, but pretty healthy.

00:59:15.780 Stockwell is right about this.

00:59:18.680 They will not easily let you go.

00:59:22.140 This is not going to be smooth.

00:59:24.300 It's not going to be like, oh, we ticked that box and that box and that box,

00:59:28.140 and therefore, sorry, we're out of here.

00:59:30.600 They will not let you go.

00:59:32.000 Not that easily.

00:59:33.280 Because your absence threatens the viability of the Project of Confederation.

00:59:42.580 So you must be prepared to encounter the kind of obstacles that Stockwell is describing.

00:59:49.280 In fact, this may be the problem.

00:59:53.040 The one he's outlining may well be a good picture of the obstacles that will be placed in your path.

01:00:02.320 That is the kind of thing to be prepared for, to be told, I'm sorry, this is just too difficult.

01:00:07.980 It will take too long.

01:00:09.300 It's too inconvenient for you.

01:00:10.620 There's too much risk.

01:00:12.300 Therefore, it would be better for you if you didn't do this.

01:00:17.500 It's in your own interests not to do this.

01:00:19.580 But in fact, it is in the interest of those people that you plan to leave that you not do this.

01:00:26.900 And so the alternative is?

01:00:28.000 the alternative is

01:00:32.220 to make sure

01:00:34.240 that you do everything

01:00:36.220 that is necessary

01:00:37.440 whatever it is

01:00:38.680 to have your independence

01:00:41.400 your free society

01:00:43.060 and your own say

01:00:44.480 in your own future

01:00:45.620 for how many years

01:00:46.420 forever

01:00:47.180 no no for how many years

01:00:48.620 do we work at that

01:00:49.460 to get there

01:00:49.980 as long as it takes

01:00:50.900 and get very poor

01:00:52.500 and hungry in the process

01:00:53.620 it's not the only one in the case but this is the second last paragraph of the decision

01:01:02.640 it says this although there is no right under the constitution right that's all i'm saying

01:01:10.340 or at international law to unilateral secession that is secession without negotiation on the

01:01:18.580 basis just discussed. This does not rule out the possibility of an unconstitutional

01:01:27.240 declaration of secession leading to a de facto secession. The ultimate success 0.88

01:01:36.300 of such a secession would be dependent on recognition by the international community,

01:01:43.760 which is likely to consider the legality and legitimacy of secession have in regards to,

01:01:50.560 amongst other facts, the conduct of Quebec and Canada in determining whether to grant

01:01:58.140 or withhold recognition. In other words, let me translate. In my opinion, the Supreme Court is

01:02:04.760 saying this, a unilateral declaration of independence is not in accordance with the

01:02:10.480 law that we're describing. But if you do it, and the international community, that is other

01:02:18.760 countries, recognize you, then de facto you have done it, even though you have not done it in a

01:02:25.020 way that our Constitution describes. So in other words, we're not saying it's good or legal, but

01:02:31.500 you can do it. That's the way it might end up. I appreciate that clarification because the way

01:02:38.000 it was stated before, it sounded like you believe, Bruce, there was an ability within the negotiations

01:02:45.340 for a unilateral, a legal, legal, unilateral declaration of independence. There is not.

01:02:52.400 What the courts were saying, they said, oh, you could go rogue. You could. And maybe some

01:02:59.800 countries would join in. But that is the only option, an illegal way that would be so confrontational

01:03:07.840 that other countries might say, we've got to go help them. We've got to either go help Canada

01:03:13.080 or go help those outbursts. I just want to make that clear. Thank you for the clarification.

01:03:18.140 There is no legal unilateral right for a statement of Declaration of Independence. There is not.

01:03:26.860 The Supreme Court said, well, of course it could happen. Somebody could say, I don't want to obey

01:03:31.260 the law. Of course that could happen. Then you'd have revolution. And as I was just talking with

01:03:35.300 a friend here. Right now, and I know we'll wait for the vote, but all the polls show that on the

01:03:41.880 angriest date, you might get 30%, you might get 35. So I want you to picture this. 35% of Albertans

01:03:50.280 are saying, we want to do it illegally. And if it means we fight, we fight. 70% said, oh, no,

01:03:57.600 you don't. Now, the majority is saying, no, we don't want to do it illegally. So you've got a

01:04:01.980 problem. But what's all I'm saying? I think, though, that that paragraph we were just talking

01:04:07.900 about does require the context of what I mentioned before. And that is that the Supreme Court

01:04:14.860 elsewhere in this judgment goes out of its way to make this point. The negotiations that occur

01:04:21.480 after a successful vote are political and not legal. In other words, they are acknowledging

01:04:30.500 that what happens after that is going to be pretty sticky in the political sense,

01:04:39.120 and they are not going to be ruling on whether or not one party has done wrong or not.

01:04:44.440 And the reality is exactly as they described, which is if it goes this way, that's the way it goes.

01:04:52.320 And so don't get hung up on the idea of illegal or illegal,

01:04:57.720 because you're dealing with a moment where one entity is saying,

01:05:02.280 we don't want to be part of your constitutional order.

01:05:06.880 That law is part of that constitutional order.

01:05:10.960 And so it's quite natural for that party trying to leave to act outside that constitutional order.

01:05:18.260 Yes, yes, Tocqueville is right.

01:05:21.660 That is a political revolution.

01:05:24.100 You are refusing to comply with the orders of the state you're trying to leave.

01:05:30.120 That is true.

01:05:31.980 And there's a lot of risk in that.

01:05:33.780 But that's what you're going to have to do, maybe, if you want to be independent.

01:05:38.980 Well, right now, again, we believe the polls.

01:05:42.540 We'll find out, I guess, when people vote.

01:05:44.760 But the constant, consistent trend line in the polling, and I don't like, well, so what?

01:05:50.620 Okay, so what?

01:05:51.960 It's 30%.

01:05:53.140 So 30% of people would say, we're prepared to do this illegally.

01:06:00.220 And 70% of Albertans would say, no, we're not.

01:06:03.960 What are you talking about?

01:06:07.080 Well, no, no, this is, that's the only way, that's the only way it could happen.

01:06:13.240 It would not be legal.

01:06:15.680 So what we're going to do is we're going to jump into the Q&A now.

01:06:19.920 just remember the audience

01:06:21.960 we don't pick up your audio for the recording

01:06:24.040 so it will look like he's just talking

01:06:25.920 to nobody

01:06:26.420 Jason, that won't be

01:06:30.080 the first time

01:06:30.960 but you did provide a lot of questions

01:06:33.960 here so I want to get to that and if you guys want to add

01:06:35.900 any more questions now or even comments

01:06:37.640 now's your time, grab a card, write it down

01:06:39.860 and I'll bring it forward and it will make it

01:06:41.940 onto the audio so I appreciate all of that

01:06:43.820 cooperation, gentlemen

01:06:45.640 thank you very much for that debate, that was a fantastic

01:06:48.020 debate, I want to thank them both

01:06:49.280 Thank you.

01:06:51.280 Thank you.

01:06:53.280 Goodbye.

The Critical Compass Podcast - September 18, 2026

DEBATE ｜ Bruce Pardy & Stockwell Day on Alberta Independence

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