The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1019 - Bryan Fogel

00:00:08.000 Alright, we're live.

00:00:10.000 You cool with that bar in your teeth, or are you good?

00:00:14.000 No, no.

00:00:15.000 How are they?

00:00:15.000 Those things stick.

00:00:17.000 They stick, those green belly meal bars.

00:00:19.000 So, first of all, man, your documentary, Icarus, I say that wrong all the time.

00:00:25.000 I say Icarus, but it's Icarus, right?

00:00:28.000 Icarus.

00:00:29.000 Yeah, that's the guy with the wings that flew too close to the sun.

00:00:32.000 Exactly. 0.97

00:00:33.000 It's fucking amazing. 0.97

00:00:34.000 It's an amazing documentary. 0.97

00:00:36.000 I contacted you. 0.99

00:00:37.000 We'd gone back and forth a little bit on Twitter, and then I finally sat down and watched it the other day, and I was like, holy shit.

00:00:44.000 The extent of the cover-up, first of all, for folks who don't know what it's about, the documentary started off just kind of about doping, right? 0.93

00:00:55.000 And then it became about the state-sponsored Russian doping program.

00:01:00.000 And then it all imploded while you were doing the documentary.

00:01:05.000 That's right.

00:01:06.000 The documentary, how long did it take you to put this together?

00:01:09.000 Three and a half years.

00:01:10.000 And so what was the initial idea behind it?

00:01:13.000 So the initial idea, I guess, I'll say it's streaming on Netflix right now.

00:01:18.000 They released it a month ago.

00:01:21.000 And the initial idea had come to me essentially when Armstrong confessed.

00:01:26.000 And I'd been a lifelong cycling fan and I had followed him for my whole journey with him.

00:01:33.000 And what struck me the most about his confession was that if you talk to anybody outside of the sport, they all thought that he got caught.

00:01:42.000 But the reality is, is he actually never got caught.

00:01:46.000 I mean, to this day, this guy has passed 500 anti-doping controls clean.

00:01:52.000 So I'm going, wait, not what's wrong with Armstrong.

00:01:56.000 What's wrong with this global anti-doping system that they can't catch the most tested athlete on planet Earth?

00:02:04.000 And I'm going, wait, he's tested clean 500 times.

00:02:08.000 Who should we be mad at?

00:02:09.000 Should we be mad at Armstrong?

00:02:11.000 Or should we be...

00:02:13.000 Upset at this system that is essentially making an athlete not have a choice as to what they do or not do if they actually want to have a possibility of winning if the system itself is not able to catch them.

00:02:27.000 Well, that's a big factor, right?

00:02:28.000 I mean, that is really an important thing to talk about.

00:02:30.000 In the high-level world of cycling, when they took away Armstrong's victories in the Tour de France, Think this the person who got who did not test positive in any tests before that I think was like 18th place.

00:02:45.000 Is that correct somewhere?

00:02:46.000 I don't remember exactly but yeah, but there was there was no one and then even after Yeah, I think.

00:03:15.000 You go free, and we aren't going to punish you.

00:03:18.000 But if you lie to us, there's going to be a price to pay.

00:03:21.000 And in doing that, all of his teammates, who did the exact same thing that he did, ratted him out in exchange for their own immunity.

00:03:31.000 And the rest is history.

00:03:32.000 Well, there's a little more to it, too, right?

00:03:33.000 Like, he was actually suing people that were saying that he was doping, and he was going after them and threatening them with lawsuits, and which, you know...

00:03:43.000 And that's, you know, why, before I ever picked up a camera, I had named the film Icarus.

00:03:51.000 And I had named it Icarus because of what I deemed the Armstrong story.

00:03:58.000 Which was a story of a guy who just kept pushing the boundaries and pushing the boundaries and pushing the boundaries until he flew too close to the sun and his, you know, wings burned and he plummeted to the earth.

00:04:11.000 And that to me was a story of...

00:04:14.000 You know, ambition that wouldn't stop and having no filter on how far you went to win and what you were willing to do and who you were willing to destroy in that process to win.

00:04:28.000 And to me, When you take the doping out of it, that's the problem that I would have on a personal level with the lance of it.

00:04:43.000 It's one thing if you're doing something that everybody else is doing, but it's another thing when you're literally going out and destroying other people's lives to try to protect your own lives.

00:04:55.000 Yeah, I mean, I kind of see his position.

00:04:58.000 I see how he got caught up in it and the momentum of it all just sort of brought him to this place where it was almost no, there's no way to do it.

00:05:04.000 Either, you know, you go after these people and try to silence them, or you come clean.

00:05:08.000 And eventually he was forced to come clean.

00:05:10.000 You knew though, and most people did, that he was doing something.

00:05:15.000 Yeah, I mean, I had always felt that he was doing something.

00:05:19.000 But I also, having been kind of deeply involved in the sport, believed that everybody else was doing something also.

00:05:26.000 So his confession to me wasn't really the shocker.

00:05:31.000 What was the shocker and what set me out on this journey was...

00:05:36.000 Like, in the public court of opinion and what you saw going on in the news was it was essentially like, you know, we've got Gotti, we've got Al Capone, we've got the ringleader, we've got the, you know, the biggest criminal in the history of sport,

00:05:53.000 essentially, and we finally got him.

00:05:55.000 And to me it was like getting Al Capone on tax evasion.

00:05:59.000 You didn't get him because the system didn't work to get him.

00:06:03.000 And so I started looking at...

00:06:06.000 Forget about cycling.

00:06:08.000 I was looking at what does this mean in all sports?

00:06:12.000 What does this mean in terms of the Olympics?

00:06:15.000 What does this mean in terms of basketball and football and baseball and all these other sports if the most tested athlete on planet Earth can't be caught?

00:06:25.000 And that's what set me out to make the film initially was to explore using kind of just the Armstrong story as the framework but to explore what was wrong with the anti-doping system in sport and essentially use myself as a human guinea pig to explore that and then along that way kind of show whether or not this system worked And then essentially present

00:06:55.000 hypotheticals about what could be done or what couldn't be done and whether or not we as a society care about, you know, drug use and sport.

00:07:07.000 And that was the original concept and construct of the film.

00:07:13.000 Well, drug use in sport is very complicated because it's so prevalent and it's almost impossible to separate the two when you think about it, particularly in the Tour de France, right?

00:07:24.000 In professional cycling, I mean, it is just a dirty sport.

00:07:28.000 Well, I think that, from what I know, is over the last several years, it's really cleaned up quite a bit, quite a lot.

00:07:36.000 And if you start looking at the times also, they've started to come down and slow down.

00:07:43.000 But I think that we're probably in a What I would call it, I don't know, a glory period between the science kind of catching up to the cheaters in some way and then the cheaters basically figuring out how to out-science the science again.

00:08:02.000 So they're in like a holding pattern.

00:08:04.000 I feel like in the world of cycling, at least that's going on to some extent.

00:08:10.000 Didn't somebody just get caught just a couple days ago with an engine in his bike?

00:08:14.000 Oh, that's the new thing, yeah.

00:08:16.000 They're putting engines in bikes.

00:08:18.000 I've read that they're now figuring out how to replicate EPO erythropoietin at the genetic level, basically, how to make your cells naturally create more erythropoietin.

00:08:30.000 Jesus.

00:08:31.000 There's always going to be something on that cusp of medical technology and human evolution trying to outsmart the system and the testing.

00:08:44.000 So when you contacted the Russian gentleman, what was his name again?

00:08:48.000 Gregory Rutchenkov.

00:08:49.000 And Gregory is the guy, and he's right now in the Witness Protection Program.

00:08:54.000 Protective custody.

00:08:55.000 Protective custody.

00:08:57.000 Now, how did you get a hold of him, and how did you set that up? 1.00

00:09:00.000 Because it was fascinating watching you shoot your ass full with like a hundred different kinds of steroids. 0.99

00:09:05.000 I mean, it was just... 0.99

00:09:06.000 How many different things did you take?

00:09:09.000 It took a lot.

00:09:13.000 It was over how much of a period of time?

00:09:18.000 About nine months.

00:09:19.000 About nine months.

00:09:20.000 And what had happened is, so I decided that I was going to go on this super-size-me-esque journey into the world of performance-enhancing drugs.

00:09:31.000 And I spent about a year...

00:09:34.000 Doing all this research shortly after Armstrong confesses, which is 2013, early 2013. And I actually picked up a camera in May of 2014. And over this year, I start talking to all these scientists, and I'm contacting people on a global level in Switzerland,

00:09:51.000 in Germany, in the UK, and all over the US. And essentially, each one of these scientists, I'm asking essentially the same questions.

00:10:00.000 I'm saying, hey, Do you believe the anti-doping system in sport works?

00:10:06.000 And every single one of them said no.

00:10:09.000 And I said, do you believe that you can catch an athlete who is doping?

00:10:17.000 And every single one of them told me no.

00:10:21.000 I said, do you believe that you could still essentially do what Lance Armstrong did and get away with it with the proper advisors?

00:10:29.000 And every one of them said to me, yes.

00:10:32.000 And then I would pose the question to each one of these guys.

00:10:35.000 I said, are you able, would you have this knowledge to advise me how to essentially evade positive detection?

00:10:46.000 And the vast majority of them said, yes.

00:10:49.000 And I said, but will you do that?

00:10:51.000 And they said, no.

00:10:53.000 And they said, the biggest variable is that you've got to get your samples into a WADA lab, a World Anti-Doping Agency lab.

00:11:03.000 And that becomes very difficult because if you can just get your samples into a WADA lab, amateur, professional, anybody, right?

00:11:10.000 Well, you can start figuring out All the, you know, loopholes and what you can do and what you can't do if you can essentially know how to be tested.

00:11:19.000 So the variable was how I was going to get my samples into a water lab.

00:11:23.000 And I start talking to a scientist here by the name of Don Catlin in Los Angeles, and he's considered the grandfather of anti-doping.

00:11:34.000 He created all the tests for the first test for steroid detection in sport.

00:11:40.000 He actually is the first guy who did the testing for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, which was the first time they ever did anti-doping testing in sport.

00:11:51.000 So Catlin has developed all these tests, and I get in touch with Catlin, and he's retired.

00:11:58.000 He's still alive.

00:11:59.000 I think he's about 80 years old, and he retired, I don't know, five, six years ago.

00:12:06.000 And I quickly realized in talking to Catlin that he's very frustrated.

00:12:11.000 He basically has felt that he spent his entire life and career In a system that he was never going to win at.

00:12:19.000 And that no matter what he did, and he would develop one methodology to catch somebody, the very next day there'd be another way around it.

00:12:28.000 And then he would develop another methodology, and then the very next day there'd be someone around it.

00:12:32.000 Or he would propose that the league, or the NFL, or baseball, or whoever you want to say, should use this test to catch You know, this sort of substance abuse and the leagues would not use that test intentionally.

00:12:50.000 Or he would find positives and report the positives and then be told basically to, you know, pretend that there wasn't a positive because his job was simply to report, not to police.

00:13:03.000 And he had spent an entire career with this.

00:13:08.000 And so he has, you know, I think a lot of frustrations with the anti-doping system and he said that he wouldn't help me do it because A, he would have had to prescribe me drugs and he didn't want to be liable for that.

00:13:23.000 B, he didn't know how he was going to get my samples into a water lab because he doesn't have access to that anymore.

00:13:30.000 And he was worried about his legacy.

00:13:32.000 He didn't want to, as much as he felt all the fallacies in the system, he didn't want to be out there, you know, basically, almost in a way, making a mockery of all of his work.

00:13:44.000 And he says, hey, I know this scientist in Russia, Gregory Rychenkov.

00:13:49.000 He runs the WADA Lab, the World Anti-Doping Agency Lab for all of Russia, and I think he might help you.

00:13:56.000 And, you know, essentially he said that because he knew that the Russians had, you know, always been kind of trying to figure out ways to game the system. 0.66

00:14:10.000 And he had met Gregory in like 1983. And that's a whole other story.

00:14:16.000 Because Gregory had basically come to the United States as a spy to figure out what the Americans were going to beat him against in the 1984 Olympics, which I can talk about later.

00:14:28.000 But I get in touch with Gregory, connects us through email, and I start emailing Gregory.

00:14:34.000 And we spend about eight months back and forth on emails, calls, at the time he had just done the Sochi Olympics.

00:14:43.000 So he was doing all the testing for the Sochi Olympics.

00:14:45.000 And he invites me out to Oregon, and this is July of 2014, to go meet him.

00:14:51.000 He's lecturing at this symposium.

00:14:53.000 And he doesn't know at the time that I want to dope.

00:14:56.000 He just thinks that I'm an American filmmaker making a documentary exploring the anti-doping system in sport.

00:15:03.000 So I go out to Oregon.

00:15:05.000 And I make a decision that I'm not going to bring my camera crews, I'm not going to, you know, do anything other than to just meet him.

00:15:14.000 And we start talking, and I say to Gregory, and he had just finished the Sochi Games, I said, do you believe that a medal in the Olympics can be won without performance-enhancing drugs?

00:15:29.000 And he goes, no.

00:15:32.000 And I say, why?

00:15:34.000 And he says, well, I should believe.

00:15:36.000 I try to believe.

00:15:38.000 But I don't believe a medal in the Olympics can be won without performance-enhancing drugs.

00:15:44.000 And then he takes this pause.

00:15:46.000 I'll never forget this.

00:15:47.000 And he goes, I don't know.

00:15:49.000 Maybe I'm a bad man.

00:15:52.000 And he says this to me.

00:15:54.000 And that, you know, was this moment where I went, okay, clearly there is a deeper story here that the head of the anti-doping laboratory in Russia is telling me that A, he doesn't think you can win an Olympic medal cleanly,

00:16:11.000 and B, he doesn't know whether or not he's a bad man.

00:16:17.000 What was going through your head?

00:16:19.000 It was like, I think I just hit the mother load for what will be a riveting film and a global story.

00:16:35.000 And I say to him, and we had really bonded, and I really liked the guy.

00:16:42.000 As you see in the film, I mean, he's impossible not to like.

00:16:46.000 Yeah.

00:16:47.000 And I liken him kind of like Bryan Cranston in Breaking Bad.

00:16:52.000 I mean, he's this guy who's living this...

00:16:54.000 You know, you love him, and at the same time, he's doing things that he shouldn't be doing.

00:17:00.000 And he'd been living this double life.

00:17:03.000 His entire life was living a double life, which is insane.

00:17:07.000 And he agrees that he's going to help me dope and avoid detection.

00:17:13.000 But before this...

00:17:15.000 He agrees, but he's not admitting to anything.

00:17:18.000 No, not admitting to anything.

00:17:20.000 So he's just showing you how it can be done.

00:17:22.000 But he says, look, you know, you're an amateur cyclist.

00:17:26.000 You're not a professional.

00:17:28.000 And in his mind, even though I was, quote-unquote, cheating, I wasn't cheating anyone out of anything.

00:17:36.000 Right.

00:17:36.000 And you were doing it very openly.

00:17:38.000 Yeah, and I was doing it very openly.

00:17:40.000 And so he viewed it as kind of like, hey, this is a cool project to get involved in.

00:17:46.000 And in his mind, I think he also looked at it as, hey, what's the big deal if I expose the fallacies in the anti-doping system?

00:17:54.000 Because maybe they'll actually do something about it if I show, you know, essentially how it doesn't work.

00:18:02.000 So he agrees that he's going to be my doping advisor, and this is now July 2014, but I had to do the race clean first.

00:18:11.000 I then had to go and, you know, through this whole thing, and I wasn't going to actually start doping until essentially the beginning of the next year and beginning of 2015. So you had to do the race clean to get a base?

00:18:24.000 Yeah, because my whole premise was, hey, I'm going to do this race twice. 0.50

00:18:28.000 I'm going to go in it and do it clean, see how good I do, and then the next year I'm going to go in just dope to the gills with the hope that I'm going to win it.

00:18:37.000 Now how much cycling had you done before this?

00:18:39.000 A lot.

00:18:40.000 I grew up racing when I was 13. I'd raced seriously until I was 19. But then I moved out to LA. I was in a huge, like a horrific bike crash when I was 19 in a race.

00:18:53.000 And that essentially, I guess, I didn't have the balls after that.

00:19:00.000 I went back and raced another year. 0.92

00:19:01.000 What happened to you?

00:19:02.000 I lost eight teeth.

00:19:04.000 All of these were shattered.

00:19:06.000 This one was knocked out entirely.

00:19:09.000 And it was a bad wreck.

00:19:13.000 When I was 19, my freshman year in college, so I went through college basically with plastic teeth in my mouth as I was going through essentially like reconstructive dental work.

00:19:25.000 And it made me really think twice about being a professional athlete or pursuing cycling.

00:19:31.000 I came back to it the following year, and as you know, you know, in any sort of competitive realm in sport, you can't be thinking about whether or not you're going to get injured.

00:19:42.000 You can't be thinking about what those risks are.

00:19:44.000 You have to, you know, be fully committed or you're going to lose or you're going to get dropped.

00:19:48.000 And I found myself, you know, not following the wheel close enough.

00:19:53.000 I found myself holding back on descents.

00:19:55.000 I found myself like in my mind of, oh my God, what if this crash happens again?

00:19:59.000 And so I decided to stop racing and moved out to LA. I got into the entertainment business.

00:20:05.000 I was doing stand-up comedy originally.

00:20:09.000 But cycling remained like my passion in life.

00:20:12.000 So it's just like my life's therapy.

00:20:16.000 I'm stressed out.

00:20:17.000 I go on the bike.

00:20:18.000 And so I've always rode, but I stopped racing.

00:20:22.000 But to go back and do this, it was like, okay, there's a part of me where I'm going to kind of go relive my youth or the idea of how good I could possibly be.

00:20:34.000 And the bigger element was I thought it was going to be a compelling film and something that would be very interesting, not for cycling, you know, people that were into cycling, but into sports.

00:20:46.000 Right.

00:20:47.000 And curious about, you know, drug use and sport and performance enhancing drugs and what they do and what they don't do.

00:20:54.000 So, the first run at it, you had been off cycling for how long?

00:20:59.000 I'd still been training and riding and riding, but the first run at it, I mean, I like radically amped up my training program for like six months ahead of time because I was going to do this thousand-mile race through the French Alps in Europe.

00:21:14.000 What's the race called?

00:21:15.000 Called the Haute Route.

00:21:16.000 So you get ready for this.

00:21:18.000 Now when you say clean, are you taking any supplements, multivitamins?

00:21:21.000 Are you doing anything?

00:21:22.000 I was taking vitamins.

00:21:24.000 I was taking...

00:21:25.000 Creatine?

00:21:26.000 Not creatine, but I was always doing protein shakes.

00:21:29.000 I was doing, you know, all sorts of recovery drinks and, you know, essentially training, you know, getting my blood monitored and eating super, super healthy and...

00:21:43.000 I'm essentially training as scientifically as I could without using any sort of illegal substances.

00:21:55.000 And so what kind of results did you get the first race?

00:21:58.000 I got 14th out of 440 guys.

00:22:01.000 That's pretty damn good.

00:22:02.000 It was pretty good.

00:22:02.000 I was destroyed after it, but it was pretty good.

00:22:05.000 So then the race is over.

00:22:08.000 How long after that do you start doping?

00:22:11.000 Six months.

00:22:12.000 So you wait six months.

00:22:13.000 Six months.

00:22:14.000 I wait six months.

00:22:15.000 Are you training at all during then?

00:22:16.000 Yeah.

00:22:17.000 I'm training, but I'm filming.

00:22:20.000 I'm filming interviews because I was filming...

00:22:25.000 I probably had 50, 60 interviews that never made it into the film because the film took this pivot.

00:22:31.000 Have you thought about releasing those in some way?

00:22:34.000 Maybe YouTube or something like that?

00:22:36.000 You know, I've thought about, you know, Netflix technically would have the rights to that, or, you know, at least the first right to it.

00:22:44.000 So, you know, perhaps I would do like a side series behind Icarus where I could...

00:22:50.000 You know, roll out all these various interviews, because I interviewed so many interesting people.

00:22:55.000 Yeah, because I was so compelled by the end of it, you know, it could have been a series.

00:22:59.000 I could have kept going with it.

00:23:01.000 So, six months after, then you get back together with Gregory, and then bam!

00:23:09.000 Exactly.

00:23:09.000 So I get back to Gregory, and in the film you see this Skype call.

00:23:15.000 And so, you know, in a creative filmmaking process, editorially, you're always faced with decisions of, okay, do I spend 10 minutes of this film on all these emails back and forth to Gregory before we see him on Skype?

00:23:31.000 Well, that's not as dynamic as, boom, you see him on Skype.

00:23:35.000 So that very first call, which was the very first time I had had him on Skype, and it was the first time that I had seen him since Oregon in July 2014, and now I'm beginning my protocol, and there he is, shirtless and willing to help me.

00:23:53.000 Almost that very moment, this German television show comes out like a 60 Minutes piece called ARD is the station.

00:24:03.000 And this German investigative reporter, Hayo Sepit, who unbeknownst to me at the time had been following the story of essentially the possibility of Russia having a state-sponsored doping program.

00:24:17.000 Had already interviewed Gregory, and he puts together this, like, 30-minute, explosive, like, 60-minute show, alleging that Russia has a state-sponsored doping program, and that he's working with these two whistleblowers that have basically fled Russia to go work with him in Germany and tell their story.

00:24:35.000 And these two whistleblowers are now, like, enemies of the state.

00:24:40.000 And they're worried about their lives and there's threats to their lives.

00:24:44.000 And they essentially start bringing forward information about a state-sponsored program.

00:24:50.000 And the information is so compelling that WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, launches an investigation into the claims behind this German television show.

00:25:03.000 And there's a backstory to that, which is that WADA... Had had this information for four years and they sat on it because they're essentially in bed with the IOC and the Olympics.

00:25:17.000 So the only reason why they finally acted on this information out of Russia was they were forced to because it was now in public and this German show had done kind of the equivalent of putting it on a front page of a New York Times and so they had to take action.

00:25:33.000 So WADA launches this investigation.

00:25:37.000 It's now January 2015, and I'm just working with Gregory, and Gregory shows me.

00:25:43.000 He says, hey, have you seen this television show on me?

00:25:47.000 And at the time, I hadn't.

00:25:48.000 And I watched this show recently.

00:25:51.000 And there it is.

00:25:52.000 There he is being alleged as essentially the guy who is doping all the Russian athletes, that he knows everything.

00:25:59.000 There's athletes on camera saying that Dr. Rechenkov is the guy you go to.

00:26:07.000 And it was a major pivot point in the story.

00:26:12.000 But for me at the time, I made a very, very succinct decision, which was, I'm going to continue behind the scenes to follow this story, this investigation, because I didn't know where it was going to go.

00:26:26.000 But in the meantime, I have Gregory, this Moscow scientist.

00:26:31.000 He's helping me to avoid detection.

00:26:34.000 And that's the movie that I set out to make.

00:26:37.000 And so I'm going to stick on that journey while doubling down on the other side of the story, should this side of the story end up truly being something.

00:26:49.000 And so this is essentially a year.

00:26:53.000 And so he's doping me this entire year while he's under investigation, while I'm literally going to guys like Dick Pound, who founded WADA. And Richard McLaren, who's investigating him, and the guys within WADA and different guys in global anti-doping.

00:27:13.000 And I'm saying, hey, what do you know about this Russia investigation?

00:27:18.000 What do you think if this proves true?

00:27:21.000 Do you think Gregory Rechenkov is involved?

00:27:24.000 And none of these people that I'm interviewing know that I'm working with Gregory.

00:27:29.000 They have no idea that I'm doping.

00:27:31.000 They have no idea that I know Gregory.

00:27:32.000 And so I'm getting these very, very candid, honest responses.

00:27:37.000 And we cut to November 2015 and this 335 page report breaks and it's alleging that he's the mastermind of a state-sponsored doping program in Russia.

00:27:53.000 But again, it's all smoke and mirrors and it's mandated to track and field.

00:27:59.000 And that's when things got incredibly serious.

00:28:03.000 Putin gets on state television, it's a huge worldwide story, denies that any of this is true, but he makes a statement stating that if any of this is true, that it will be the individuals that are held accountable and that punishment will be absolute.

00:28:23.000 And that was essentially Gregory's death sentence.

00:28:27.000 And we were Skyping and we were talking during this entire period as this crisis is unfolding in Russia.

00:28:34.000 And he's forced to resign from the lab.

00:28:36.000 The lab is shut down.

00:28:38.000 Everybody's let go.

00:28:40.000 Russia is suspended from world track and field.

00:28:43.000 Gregory tells me that the KGB, the FSB, have plotted a suicide plan to make it look like he's killed himself and that he needs to get out of Russia.

00:28:57.000 How did he know that they had planned that?

00:28:59.000 So Gregory had FSB clearance because he was essentially FSB. He was part of a secret...

00:29:10.000 Operation by Russia to essentially dope all of its athletes, have them avoid detection, swap urine, etc.

00:29:18.000 And so Gregory was, you know, had high clearance.

00:29:21.000 And other people within the FSB that liked him basically said, hey, you got to get out.

00:29:28.000 And so I got him a plane ticket.

00:29:32.000 I put it on my credit card and he arrives in Los Angeles.

00:29:36.000 This is November 2015. How do they just let him fly?

00:29:40.000 So this, I am sure, to Putin and the other Russian ministry officials, this has probably been the behind closed doors, screaming, shouting matches, I'm going to cut your head off, how did you allow this to happen,

00:29:56.000 conversation, but...

00:29:58.000 We're good to go.

00:30:16.000 And, C, he had a visa to come to the United States to lecture, but they weren't thinking that he had a visa at that moment.

00:30:24.000 They weren't viewing him as a flight risk, even though they put two FSB agents living in his home to guard him.

00:30:33.000 And it was a blip.

00:30:36.000 It was a blip.

00:30:37.000 They hadn't tagged his passport.

00:30:38.000 It happened so fast.

00:30:39.000 He had this visa.

00:30:41.000 And you bought the ticket, so they didn't know that he had a ticket, probably.

00:30:46.000 That's right.

00:30:47.000 Wow.

00:30:48.000 And he gets out.

00:30:49.000 And he gets out.

00:30:50.000 And I'm sure that, I mean, there's probably been endless, you know, people getting their jobs lost in Russia because this guy was able to get out.

00:31:03.000 At the least.

00:31:05.000 Yeah.

00:31:06.000 Now, and that's at the least is a very important point because at least one guy wound up dead.

00:31:11.000 Two.

00:31:12.000 Two.

00:31:13.000 What was the circumstances?

00:31:15.000 Like very suspicious circumstances, right?

00:31:17.000 So Gregory arrives to Los Angeles and he brings with him three hard drives.

00:31:27.000 And on these hard drives essentially is the irrefutable evidence of...

00:31:36.000 Essentially, Russia's state-sponsored doping program.

00:31:39.000 And this system, when I began to truly understand what this was, I mean, this upends all of world sport.

00:31:50.000 This changes, whether the Olympics want to acknowledge it or not, this changes all of Olympic history.

00:31:57.000 It changes the last 40 years of the Olympics because it basically shows that Pretty much every medal ever won by Russia in Olympic competition was won through illicit means that Gregory was behind a state-sponsored doping program where essentially pretty much every athlete On the Russian national team was,

00:32:25.000 you know, an employee of the Russian state and that Russia had, you know, went into each one of these Olympic Games and world competition, cheating, to use sport as a way to assert itself geopolitically and as a way to show itself as a strong country.

00:32:46.000 And we forget I think in the US, I mean, A, I mean, sport is what people care about on this planet.

00:32:53.000 But, you know, Orwell said it best, that sport is war without the weapons.

00:33:00.000 And if you look at what these Olympic Games are every two years, it's every country on planet Earth coming together under the illusion of peace and goodwill and harmony.

00:33:13.000 While the governments are looking at this as a way to assert geopolitical power and strength.

00:33:20.000 So if you're China coming into the Olympics, like they did in those Beijing Olympics, and they swept those Beijing Olympics, and from the information that I have, they essentially did the same thing that Russia did in the Sochi Olympics.

00:33:33.000 But if you're looking, let's say, at China and those 2008 Beijing Games, they spend billions of dollars.

00:33:40.000 The world has never seen an Olympic Games like those Beijing Games, the opening ceremonies, the closing ceremonies.

00:33:46.000 What that was, was that was China showing the world we're a first world power. 1.00

00:33:50.000 We can kick your ass. 1.00

00:33:52.000 We have nukes. 1.00

00:33:54.000 We are a global economic force.

00:33:57.000 And look what we can do world because the entire world's eyes are on the Olympics being watched by billions of people.

00:34:05.000 You think that China is a great country?

00:34:07.000 Look what we're able to do.

00:34:09.000 And on top of that, They needed to win.

00:34:12.000 Because it's not enough just to show this infrastructure that they can build.

00:34:17.000 It's also, we can win.

00:34:20.000 We are superior.

00:34:22.000 And that is what countries have been doing for the last 40 years in the Olympic Games, just like Hitler did in the 1936 Games. 0.95

00:34:30.000 It helped unify his power and help, you know, bring Germany together.

00:34:34.000 And so this is what the history of the Olympic Games have been, shrouding under this mask of peace and goodwill and unity and handshakes.

00:34:44.000 This is countries around the world going in and showing the rest of the world their strength and power.

00:34:50.000 And Russia certainly has viewed that every two years as a platform for Russia to assert itself geopolitically.

00:35:00.000 And in so doing, they put together a state-sponsored doping program to help, you know, advance Russia's geopolitical goals and show itself as a world power. 0.78

00:35:13.000 Is there any evidence that China's done the same thing, or is it just speculation that they've got a state-sponsored program as well?

00:35:20.000 Well, I personally don't have the evidence.

00:35:24.000 According to Gregory, and I have no reason to doubt Gregory, especially in light of everything that he has said has proven to be true, he was at the 2008 Beijing Games.

00:35:35.000 And according to him, What would happen, different than what Russia did in Sochi, but according to him, what would happen is that the Chinese athletes, and if you look at the medal count out of Beijing, China swept those Olympics, just like Russia swept their own Olympics.

00:35:53.000 And according to Gregory, what the Chinese athletes would do is they would show up for their, you know, their doping tests, And certain collectors, meaning when the athlete shows up, they have to be chaperoned,

00:36:09.000 and they're basically chaperoned, and that chaperone watches them pee into, you know, a container, and then they put the pee in these two different bottles, and this is the whole safeguard system.

00:36:22.000 According to Gregory, what was happening in China is that the collectors We're actually Chinese government agents, essentially, like, you know, Secret Service for China, and that the athlete would go in to have his, you know, urine collected, and this agent would give the athlete a bag of his clean urine,

00:36:41.000 and the athlete would put that urine under his armpit, and then collect the urine.

00:36:48.000 And that's apparently what China did in the Beijing Olympics, according to Gregory.

00:36:55.000 And he had knowledge of that, and that is where the ideas started to come for how to put into place what they ultimately did in Sochi, where they swapped out clean urine for dirty urine, but they did it in a much more complicated manner because of the camera systems,

00:37:14.000 because of all the technology that was in place.

00:37:17.000 Russia took it to a whole other step further Those lids that they had used, those supposedly unbreakable lids or unremovable lids?

00:37:26.000 Yes.

00:37:26.000 Had they been in place before, Sochi?

00:37:28.000 Yes, yes.

00:37:30.000 So what we're talking about is when an athlete reports for a drug test in sport, they pee into one like a cup,

00:37:45.000 and then they separate their urine between an A sample and a B sample.

00:37:50.000 And these two bottles are made by this Swiss company called Berlinger.

00:37:54.000 And they are kind of the Fort Knox of urine collection bottles.

00:37:58.000 They've created this tamper-proof top.

00:38:01.000 It seals like it's a vault.

00:38:03.000 And this has been considered the global standard.

00:38:06.000 There it is right there.

00:38:07.000 We can see it on the screen.

00:38:09.000 And these are considered the global standard in world sport.

00:38:14.000 And they're unpenetrable.

00:38:16.000 And if you see here on these bottles, the A sample is allowed to be opened by the lab, right?

00:38:24.000 So they have a machine.

00:38:26.000 It's this special machine that cracks the top, and then you can test it.

00:38:30.000 The B sample is sealed forever.

00:38:34.000 It's only to be opened if the A sample turns positive.

00:38:38.000 And that B sample is put into long-term storage for 10 years.

00:38:42.000 Basically, should testing evolve or whatever or something come up, they have this B sample to go back and test that athlete's urine up to 10 years in the Olympic vault, in the Olympic, you know, labs where they're holding these samples.

00:38:59.000 So basically what Russia figured out is that they needed to swap out both the A urine and the B urine. 0.75

00:39:07.000 But in order to get into those B samples, they had to break into these bottles.

00:39:13.000 So through a couple years of testing, the FSB got involved in a program where they figured out, using these tools, how to essentially break into these bottles undetected Dump out the dirty piss,

00:39:29.000 put in clean piss, and reseal these bottles. 0.84

00:39:32.000 So both the A sample would be negative, because that was swapped, and the B sample had been swapped, and it was in long-term storage.

00:39:39.000 How did they swap the A sample?

00:39:41.000 So if they removed the top of the B sample and they swapped that out, what did they do with the A sample?

00:39:45.000 Well, the A sample, they were legally able to open it for testing.

00:39:51.000 But it was supposed to be tested under, you know, a bunch of other people watching.

00:39:57.000 So what they would do, and this gets into detail into the film, is that they would take basically the A sample that was already in this room, they'd smuggle in the B sample.

00:40:08.000 The B sample shouldn't even been there.

00:40:10.000 And they would crack open the A sample like they were allowed to crack open for testing, but they would do this at like two o'clock in the morning.

00:40:18.000 And they would bring this A sample and the B sample through a secret hole in the wall of the room where they were aliquoting the urine.

00:40:28.000 There's the holes in the wall.

00:40:30.000 And they would pass these bottles through the hole in the wall.

00:40:33.000 And once they got through the hole in the wall, On the other side, in this makeshift room, which looked like a storage closet, but there were no cameras in there, and they had designed the whole lab for this.

00:40:44.000 I mean, there was a lot of thinking that went into this.

00:40:47.000 Blueprints.

00:40:48.000 I mean, Gregory showed me the blueprints.

00:40:50.000 I mean, this was thought out years ahead of time, how to do this.

00:40:54.000 And they'd bring the bottles into this storage room.

00:41:00.000 We're good to go.

00:41:17.000 They went secretly to a KGB building, an FSB building that was about 100 yards across the street from where the lab was, a secret building.

00:41:25.000 And there they would open up this bee sample, they would dump out the urine, bring it back to Gregory, sitting in this room, and Gregory would then put that same clean urine. 0.61

00:41:35.000 Into that bee bottle, reseal the bee bottle, put the two bottles through the hole in the lab.

00:41:40.000 They then take the bee sample, smuggle it into where it was supposed to be, the long-term storage container, and all the athletes test it negative.

00:41:52.000 Wow.

00:41:53.000 Now, what did they do in the past?

00:41:55.000 If they did that in Sochi, what did they do in Beijing?

00:41:57.000 What did they do in all the previous Olympics?

00:41:59.000 Well, so that's where it's interesting because, and this is kind of the Lance Armstrong of it, or you want to call it the anti-doping system evasion of it.

00:42:12.000 Where in the past, it was always about the science, right?

00:42:17.000 Which is, okay, what can you take?

00:42:18.000 What can you not take?

00:42:19.000 How long will you wash out?

00:42:21.000 How long will you, you know, what can, you know, and at what time would you be positive and negative?

00:42:26.000 And that goes into the weeds like, you know, HGH is hard to detect after 12 hours.

00:42:31.000 If you take micro doses of EPO, there's all these, you know, different ways around it.

00:42:37.000 And they were essentially doing that, but they were doing it on a higher level.

00:42:44.000 Gregory, and this is just, again, the incredible two lives that he was leading, so he's the head of the anti-doping lab in Russia.

00:42:54.000 So he's responsible for testing all of Russian athletes and international athletes coming into Russia for competition.

00:43:02.000 At the same time, he is developing tests to catch these athletes.

00:43:07.000 And he develops a test called the long-term metabolite test.

00:43:11.000 And what this test does is it increases the detection window to detect steroids in the blood of athletes.

00:43:19.000 So prior, they could essentially detect steroid use.

00:43:26.000 It was about a six-week window, something about that, right?

00:43:29.000 If you hadn't been taking steroids for about six weeks, you weren't going to test positive.

00:43:33.000 He develops this test that is able to detect steroid use up to like seven or eight months in the system.

00:43:41.000 And this is different types of steroids, correct?

00:43:43.000 Because some steroids have a long life inside the body.

00:43:46.000 They're fat soluble.

00:43:47.000 Exactly.

00:43:48.000 So he's able to develop a test that's the long-term metabolites to basically see that you took these drugs, you know, even if you hadn't taken them for six months.

00:43:58.000 Well, at the same time that he develops this test, and this has now been adopted on a global level, and specifically at the London Olympics of 2012. And I think, don't quote me on this, I think this test really got approved in like 2011,

00:44:16.000 somewhere around there.

00:44:17.000 And so he puts out this long-term metabolite test that's catching all these athletes from all over the world because now they can catch them up to six, seven months.

00:44:26.000 He figures out the anti-venom to his own tests.

00:44:30.000 And what he develops is a three-drug cocktail Where he is able to dissolve the steroids in a solution of either vermouth, martini for the women, chivas for the men, whiskey for the men, and he would give the athletes basically the steroids in like a shot,

00:44:48.000 in a solution of alcohol.

00:44:50.000 And what he figured out through the science is that if the steroids were taken with alcohol, they wouldn't actually go into the blood system.

00:44:57.000 So you would get all the benefits of the steroid, but your body would pass it out in a very, very quick time, and so you were undetectable.

00:45:05.000 What?

00:45:06.000 Yeah.

00:45:08.000 Wow.

00:45:09.000 How the hell did he figure that out?

00:45:10.000 Because he's a genius.

00:45:15.000 So, this guy is, you know, essentially, you know, at one time, you know, so he's figuring out, so all the Russian athletes are basically knowing, you know, they're on his system, and so they're taking steroids while the other athletes,

00:45:32.000 if they were doing the same thing on a global level, are getting caught, and the world system is using the methodology that Gregory developed.

00:45:43.000 And so this was the cat-and-mouse game going on for a very long time.

00:45:50.000 And, you know, before that it's, you know, it's the microdosing, it's the lance of it, it's all the how do you get away with it.

00:46:00.000 But what they did for Sochi is they just said, well, hey, screw that.

00:46:06.000 You know, we don't want to take any chances.

00:46:09.000 We're going to have our athletes dope full tilt so they can be at their very, very best. 0.89

00:46:16.000 They're going to be dirty as hell, but we're going to swap out their urine. 0.99

00:46:20.000 So there's no—and because in Sochi, Russia controlled the lab. 0.96

00:46:25.000 They basically owned the keys to the vault.

00:46:27.000 They were the policemen.

00:46:29.000 They were the judge, the jury, the executioner.

00:46:32.000 They had full control.

00:46:33.000 And they had a record number of golds, right?

00:46:35.000 They had a record number.

00:46:36.000 They won 13 golds in Sochi, 33 overall medals, which was the highest of any country.

00:46:42.000 And for Putin and Russia, I think when you go into, you know, what's going on in the U.S. and Russia, the Cold War has never really ended.

00:46:53.000 It's the illusion of a Cold War ending.

00:46:56.000 And what you're seeing is, you know, a country where economically it's always been, you know, you have a lot of wealth and a very, very small number of hands, but the rest of the country is pretty much living in second world conditions,

00:47:12.000 you know, once you get out of Moscow and St. Petersburg and where the main money is.

00:47:17.000 But Russia on a global level is always wanting to assert itself as a world geopolitical power.

00:47:24.000 They have nukes.

00:47:25.000 They have a lot of resources, natural resources.

00:47:30.000 And in the case of Sochi, this was a way for essentially Putin to show, like China did on a global level, Look what we're able to pull off in these Olympics. 0.81

00:47:43.000 They spent 50 billion dollars on those Olympics.

00:47:45.000 Nobody had ever done that.

00:47:47.000 His approval rating had been on the decline.

00:47:50.000 But if he could win the Olympics, he could unify Russia, just like Germany winning the World Cup or any, you know, this is because this is what sports is on a global level.

00:48:01.000 Or, you know, the Denver Broncos winning the Super Bowl, the Patriots winning the Super Bowl, and every single person in New England shows up for a parade.

00:48:08.000 People care.

00:48:09.000 And so the Olympics were Putin's way to basically show the world that Russia was an economic power, a superpower, geopolitical power.

00:48:18.000 And if those Russian athletes could win, that's the same thing of going to war, that's showing that they are, you know, that Russia is strong. 0.76

00:48:26.000 And so the mandate was win at all costs.

00:48:29.000 Gregory was the mastermind behind that program.

00:48:32.000 And right after they win those Sochi Olympics, Putin's approval rating soars to 95% and he uses that approval rating to go into the Ukraine and to go into war with Ukraine.

00:48:46.000 I'd never connected those together until your documentary when you were talking about them invading Crimea.

00:48:55.000 Instantaneously made me reconsider the the impact of sports like geopolitically like I really didn't think about it that way before that movie and After the movie what stuck with me the most and one of the most disturbing things is I remember the news where they were talking about Kicking them out of Brazil,

00:49:13.000 where they were saying that the International Olympic Committee was going to remove all the Russian athletes from competing in Brazil.

00:49:21.000 And I saw the story, and I think we probably even talked about it on the podcast.

00:49:25.000 I was like, this is insane.

00:49:27.000 This is unprecedented.

00:49:28.000 And then it went away.

00:49:30.000 And it went away.

00:49:31.000 And what you see in the film and what's going on right now, which is so...

00:49:38.000 What's upsetting in the state of the world that we're in right now is first is in the film from this investigation that gets launched from Gregory going to the New York Times and us presenting all this evidence.

00:49:55.000 They launched this three months investigation and I'm essentially behind the scenes kind of as a puppet master because Gregory can't talk.

00:50:05.000 He's in protective custody.

00:50:06.000 And so I'm the guy with his lawyers helping facilitate all the evidence, helping to decipher all the documents.

00:50:13.000 And we had hired on a whole team of people to do this.

00:50:16.000 And that's that scene in the movie where you see where I'm sitting at the table with the leaders of WADA basically You know, telling them that the Easter bunnies and Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist all at the same time.

00:50:31.000 And so this investigation goes on for two and a half months.

00:50:37.000 And during this investigation, Richard McLaren gets the samples, the Sochi samples, out of the long-term storage from the Olympics, the IOC in Luzon.

00:50:48.000 They do forensics on these bottles and they see the scratches on the bottles.

00:50:53.000 They see how the bottles were opened.

00:50:55.000 They bring in Interpol and other agencies and they figure out the tools, how Russia gets into the bottles, and they see all the evidence on the bottles.

00:51:05.000 And then they also find an extraordinary amount of salt content in the urine, because what Gregory was doing, which we don't get into the film, In order to make the clean urine match, he also had to adjust the gravity of the urine,

00:51:20.000 and he would use human table salt to do that.

00:51:24.000 Gravity of the urine?

00:51:25.000 Yeah.

00:51:26.000 When you pee, depending on how hydrated you are, dehydrated you are, what you ate that day, The gravity, essentially the weight of your urine, changes.

00:51:35.000 Basically the content of what your body is...

00:51:40.000 Is that why dehydrated people have dark urine?

00:51:42.000 Exactly.

00:51:43.000 Is that a thicker urine?

00:51:44.000 Exactly.

00:51:44.000 It's like a heavier urine.

00:51:47.000 So every athlete, when they would give their sample, part of the doping control form is they mark the specific gravity, essentially the weight of the urine.

00:51:55.000 The biological passport.

00:51:56.000 Is that a part of it?

00:51:57.000 Different.

00:51:58.000 Because the biological passport is blood.

00:52:01.000 And that's measuring blood.

00:52:03.000 So they're just measuring the weight of the urine?

00:52:05.000 Well, they're measuring part of when they do the intake form on the urine, they weigh aliquot so that it's also another thing against fraud.

00:52:17.000 Because, okay, so your specific gravity is, I'm making this up, 0.020, and that's in that sample.

00:52:24.000 Well, so if they were to go back and retest that sample, And the specific gravity was wrong, well they'd know that something was up.

00:52:32.000 So part of swapping the urine is he would also adjust the specific gravity with table salt.

00:52:39.000 He figured out that salt would change the gravity of urine.

00:52:43.000 So because he's trying to match on the doping control forms exactly, you know, what's in these bottles, he puts in table salt.

00:52:52.000 And when they go back and test these samples, sure enough, In 100% of the samples they test, they find evidence of the scratches, they find evidence of tampering, and they find the table salt in the urine.

00:53:05.000 So this is like, I mean, this is beyond a reasonable doubt that this system happened.

00:53:14.000 This is a slam dunk.

00:53:17.000 And it's now the Rio Olympic Games, and we're sitting there and going, well, every country in the world is calling for Russia to be banned.

00:53:25.000 Every anti-doping agency around the world is calling for Russia to be banned.

00:53:30.000 Every op-ed in New York Times and paper from around the world is saying you have to ban Russia from Rio.

00:53:36.000 And Thomas Bach, the president of the Olympics, essentially has the audacity to call these findings and all this evidence allegations and does not ban Russia from the Rio Olympics,

00:53:55.000 allows them in.

00:53:56.000 So 281, I think, over 390 athletes Go to Rio and the only athletes that are banned are the world track and field team because he kicked the buck down to the sports federations to decide what to do and because this investigation had started in track and field track and field and Sebastian Coe upheld the ban for the Rio games and Here we are now a year and a couple months later And

00:54:27.000 now the Olympics are trying to decide whether or not to allow Russia into the next Winter Olympic Games.

00:54:34.000 And not only have they essentially removed Richard McLaren from this investigation, and he was able to continue the work through December.

00:54:47.000 And in December of last year, 2016, he is able to release his full findings.

00:54:54.000 And these full findings have 1,200 documents of evidence of emails between Gregory and the ministry, emails between, you know, on and on that have been forensically proven using metadata where these emails were coming from,

00:55:10.000 the spreadsheets of what every single athlete was taking, when they were taking it, the bottle collection numbers.

00:55:16.000 I mean, You're talking because I've seen the evidence.

00:55:19.000 I mean, it's a graveyard.

00:55:21.000 It's mind-boggling.

00:55:23.000 And Richard McLaren concludes that over 1,000 athletes across all sports were involved in this state-sponsored doping operation.

00:55:35.000 And the Olympics, until a couple weeks ago, had done essentially nothing with this information.

00:55:46.000 They have only tried to figure out essentially how to Push it under the carpet and pretend that this didn't happen.

00:55:55.000 How to allow Russia into the next Winter Olympics by finding loopholes, by saying that you can't, you know, that it should be the individual athlete's right, etc., etc.

00:56:06.000 And they have an investigation going on right now Which is the investigation to investigate Richard McLaren's investigation, which was already forensically proven, everything was already shown beyond a reasonable doubt, but to essentially figure out whether or not they are going to allow Russia into the Winter Olympics.

00:56:30.000 And they are finally reaching out to Gregory, even though he has been available for a year and three months to speak to them.

00:56:40.000 They are finally reaching out to him to have him provide the same evidence that he provided to Richard McLaren and the investigators on that team.

00:56:50.000 So they're very reluctantly pursuing this, or very reluctantly even contemplating banning Russia.

00:57:00.000 I think what we're seeing is we're seeing, you know, I set out making a movie exploring the anti-doping system in sport, and I uncovered essentially the biggest scandal in sport history.

00:57:16.000 But behind that scandal is I'm seeing essentially the geopolitics and the business interests of all these organizations that basically stand for one thing.

00:57:28.000 They say that they're for something and that they're doing everything to protect their own business interests and do the exact opposite of what they say that they stand for.

00:57:37.000 And it calls into question that If the Olympics are up there going, play clean, be true, be fair, don't do this, play by the rules, come into these competitions and respect fellow athletes,

00:57:53.000 and then they're presented with a scandal on epic proportions, a scandal that changes its entire history.

00:58:01.000 That has been forensically proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and then they don't uphold their own rules, and they don't act or have a punishment for this?

00:58:11.000 I mean, you have to ask, what's the point of the Olympics?

00:58:13.000 Why even have the Olympics?

00:58:16.000 Why should any athlete on planet Earth who is competing cleanly, who's training their whole lives to go into these games with the belief that they are on at least a level playing field, theoretically, And then you have the organization itself not protecting the rights of clean athletes.

00:58:38.000 You have to call into question, why have the Olympics?

00:58:43.000 What's the point of it if this kind of behavior is allowed and it's unpunishable?

00:58:49.000 What do you think is going on?

00:58:52.000 I think that you have billions and billions and billions of dollars at stake.

00:58:58.000 You know, look, I mean, Russia is hosting the World Cup this summer.

00:59:04.000 Vitaly Mutko, who was the sports minister, who was elevated to essentially the vice president of Russia, the deputy prime minister after this doping scandal to basically because Putin took him out of harm's way.

00:59:19.000 You know, he was sitting on the board of FIFA. He helped Russia get the World Cup bid, you know, so that they're hosting the World Cup next year.

00:59:26.000 This is billions of dollars.

00:59:28.000 You know, Putin and Bach are known to be very good friends.

00:59:32.000 I mean, Bach and the Olympics, you know, brought in billions and billions of dollars from Russia hosting those Sochi games.

00:59:40.000 You know, this is business.

00:59:43.000 There is no interest in essentially knocking over the apple cart.

00:59:50.000 In the protection of fair sport or athletes' rights or fair play.

00:59:57.000 And the athletes are essentially the victim of a country's geopolitical interests and business interests.

01:00:06.000 I mean, we see this across all sports, but this is a case where it's night and day, and you're literally sitting at evidence that is so staggering in its scope and scale, and an organization that is basically Like,

01:00:25.000 unable to act in any sort of ethical or moral capacity to implement any sort of justice against what has been thousands and thousands and thousands of medals stolen.

01:00:46.000 From clean athletes all over the world, not just American athletes, but I mean, any athlete who went into those games clean and a Russian beat them, they basically got their medals stolen from them. 0.97

01:01:00.000 Are they hoping that this is just going to be swept under the rug and that there's going to be more news that sort of drowns this out?

01:01:09.000 In my personal opinion, that's how I see it.

01:01:13.000 You know, Gregory Ratchenkov, he wrote a op-ed to the New York Times.

01:01:21.000 It was published last week.

01:01:22.000 And the op-ed, his attorneys, because he's in protective custody, were able to facilitate this op-ed.

01:01:30.000 To the New York Times.

01:01:32.000 And in the op-ed, if you read it, he goes into detail about the evidence that he's provided, the IOC's lack of interest in doing anything, and essentially his opinion on Russia's cover-up.

01:01:49.000 And here we are.

01:01:52.000 Not once has Russia accepted any responsibility for this.

01:01:57.000 In fact, they've denied that this ever happened.

01:02:01.000 They're continuing to blame Gregory that this is like a solo act.

01:02:06.000 How could this man have pulled off this system, this huge elaborate system, by himself?

01:02:14.000 And then in so doing, after the New York Times op-ed, Russia issues an arrest warrant for Gregory.

01:02:24.000 And there's already been criminal charges against him in Russia.

01:02:28.000 They've seized all of his property and assets in Russia.

01:02:31.000 They've taken, in the process of taking a home that he bought for his daughter.

01:02:38.000 They're trying to take his wife's property.

01:02:40.000 They took his dacha.

01:02:42.000 And this is all a man who was working for the Russian ministry who had the backbone to become a whistleblower and we're still in this cycle of fake news and denial and I'm witnessing this on a daily basis and it's unbelievable because when you look at this story and then you draw a line which is so easy to draw into the current US political climate and what

01:03:12.000 is going on with Russian meddling into our election you go well If Russia was willing to do this for the last 40 years, and we have all the evidence now that they actually did this, and they have denied it and continue to deny it and don't take any responsibility,

01:03:28.000 and not only that, anybody who has spoke out against them ends up dead.

01:03:33.000 Or, you know, or they end up in jail, or they end up, you know, in a fake news cycle.

01:03:38.000 I think it's pretty, you know, I think there can be a straight analogy into, you know, if there's any question as to whether or not our election was meddled with, or whether or not Russia is able to To assert its power geopolitically,

01:03:57.000 I think this film answers that question and that I'm hoping that our country is going to wake up and go, hey, we're not going to tolerate this.

01:04:06.000 This is not acceptable.

01:04:08.000 We're not going to allow a foreign power to meddle into our election process or into the potential leadership of this country. 1.00

01:04:19.000 I mean, it's It's pretty scary when you think of the bigger implications of what this scandal is and was on a global level and then looking at what that means, you know, even for America.

01:04:33.000 Well, it's essentially highlighting the intentions and what the Russians are willing to do.

01:04:39.000 In sport.

01:04:40.000 The evidence, though, of doping is so far and beyond the evidence that we have so far about election tampering, right?

01:04:48.000 We have evidence of election tampering, but what you're telling me is just so ridiculously undeniable and what your documentary shows is so ridiculously undeniable.

01:05:00.000 It's just stunning that they're allowing the Russians to compete. 0.99

01:05:03.000 I mean, it's really scary.

01:05:05.000 When you really think about it that way, I mean, are they being threatened?

01:05:09.000 I mean, is it just simply a money thing, as you're saying?

01:05:11.000 I mean, you're talking about thousands and thousands of athletes.

01:05:16.000 And over, who knows?

01:05:18.000 I mean, there was recently a couple Russian wrestlers had their medals taken away after the fact because they had new detection methods.

01:05:28.000 I believe it was from...

01:05:31.000 I want to say 2008 or 2012 wrestlers.

01:05:34.000 Yeah, they're finding a lot of positives from 2012. 2008 has been a little bit harder because of the statute of limitations on the retesting of the samples.

01:05:45.000 And for a lot of reasons, the IOC doesn't really want to go in there and get all those samples to retest them.

01:05:52.000 Well, there's been so much.

01:05:53.000 Then it proves that the Olympics are a fraud.

01:05:56.000 But there's been so much in the past, there's been so many allegations of deception and fraud when it came to the Olympics in the first place.

01:06:04.000 There's always been some brewing behind the scenes.

01:06:08.000 But you must have been stunned in the process of making this documentary about one thing, and then while this is happening, you know, just completely...

01:06:21.000 I mean, it seems like...

01:06:24.000 Like, synchronicity or something.

01:06:26.000 Like, you just tapped into it at the very moment that this stream was becoming a raging river publicly.

01:06:34.000 It was a weird moment because I like Russia.

01:06:40.000 I love Russians.

01:06:42.000 I have tons of Russian friends.

01:06:42.000 Me too.

01:06:43.000 Love Russia.

01:06:43.000 I really do.

01:06:44.000 Hey, guys.

01:06:45.000 I really do.

01:06:46.000 I mean, you know, I mean, it's God.

01:06:48.000 I mean, I just...

01:06:50.000 For anybody who's been to Russia, I mean, it's...

01:06:53.000 It's pretty awesome.

01:06:54.000 I mean, Moscow and St. Petersburg are world-class cities.

01:06:57.000 I have so many Russian friends.

01:06:59.000 So, you know, so we're caught back up in these Cold War politics where essentially all of us individuals, you know, on an individual level go, hey, I... I love Russia.

01:07:10.000 I love Russians.

01:07:11.000 And Russians go, I love Americans.

01:07:13.000 And yet we're caught up into the geopolitics like we were in the Cold War between our leaders and the government workings and the ministry that we have nothing to do with it.

01:07:24.000 And what was shocking to me is...

01:07:28.000 You know, I think over the last 20 years, we've viewed Russia as our friend, that they're, you know, that they're our friend.

01:07:37.000 And what we're learning now is that it's been a, it's been a pretend pat on the back while we're seeing the government.

01:07:52.000 Do things and we're learning things of Russian tampering and involvement that I think that Americans a year or two ago couldn't have imagined.

01:08:05.000 And the fact that this story that I uncovered then collides with The election meddling and hacking and Russian involvement into Syria, etc.,

01:08:21.000 etc., and that those things were all coming together at the same time.

01:08:25.000 I mean, I couldn't have imagined, because even as I uncovered this scandal and worked to expose this and bring it forward, I had no idea at the time that there would be claims that our election was hacked.

01:08:43.000 Yeah, that was never even a discussion before this cycle.

01:08:47.000 That was never even a discussion.

01:08:48.000 I couldn't have imagined that.

01:08:51.000 Now, when this all came out and you put this all together, I mean, you had to think to yourself, like, what I've just made is going to change sports.

01:09:03.000 I think your documentary is the most powerful anti-doping documentary ever made.

01:09:09.000 I really do.

01:09:11.000 And I think what you've done, fortuitously, for you to be involved in this and be involved with Gregory as this was all going down, I mean, it's really crazy how the two coincided together and produced this staggering result.

01:09:28.000 When you're sitting there at the table with all these water guys and you're discussing everything, it's almost like they didn't want to hear it.

01:09:35.000 It's almost like what you were doing was exposing incompetence and corruption in an indefensible way.

01:09:43.000 That's right.

01:09:44.000 That's right.

01:09:45.000 They didn't want to hear it because it basically showed that their system had been utterly ineffective at catching cheaters.

01:09:58.000 It showed that it caught them with their pants down.

01:10:04.000 And as I got into the weeds on this, You know, you realize that WADA essentially is co-funded by the Olympics.

01:10:14.000 So 50% of WADA's budget is through the Olympics.

01:10:18.000 So they're in bed together.

01:10:19.000 They don't want to do anything that's going to hurt the other.

01:10:24.000 You also realize that there are many board members of WADA or part of the IOC. So like Craig Reedy, who is the president of WADA, is also the vice president of the IOC. Dick Pound,

01:10:40.000 who founded WADA, was running for the presidency of the IOC and was a vice president of the IOC. So the Olympics and WADA are totally interconnected to each other.

01:10:51.000 And in my opinion, or at least what Gregory has told me, is that WADA was essentially established as an arm of the IOC to help protect its sponsorship dollar and to make the Olympics appear as clean,

01:11:12.000 as, you know, as up to their Olympic ideals.

01:11:15.000 So, you know, what you're seeing within these organizations is WADA has no power to actually do anything.

01:11:23.000 So all that they can do is observe and report.

01:11:25.000 So in the case of this, the scandal gets uncovered, they then do an investigation, they corroborate everything as truth, and then they advise the Olympics.

01:11:37.000 WADA Bless their heart, advise the Olympics that they should ban Russia from the Summer Games in Rio, and that they should ban Russia from the Winter Games coming up in Pyeongchang.

01:11:49.000 WADA, that was WADA's recommendation, to which the Olympics did not take that recommendation.

01:11:55.000 And WADA doesn't have any power to actually enforce punishment.

01:12:00.000 So in the case of Russia, And talking to people inside of WADA that were dealing with this over those four years is they're getting all this information from Russia.

01:12:11.000 But ultimately, WADA is going, we don't have the budget.

01:12:14.000 We don't really have the money to do this.

01:12:16.000 They have like a $25 million a year global budget for the entire world.

01:12:21.000 So we don't have the budget to do this.

01:12:23.000 We don't have the manpower to do this.

01:12:25.000 And ultimately, we don't have the power to do anything anyway.

01:12:30.000 And how are we going to go take on Russia?

01:12:32.000 So they sat on the information, realizing that they were ultimately going to be powerless to do anything.

01:12:40.000 So it's a very complicated system because, at least from what I've seen, is there's so much politics and geopolitics around it that keeps these Operation's essentially,

01:12:56.000 you know, ineffective in actually really doing something, and the anti-doping sport almost becomes an ethical and moral decision if the organizations and leaders themselves are not really trying to do anything about it.

01:13:14.000 Now, do you think the banning of the track and field team was just a slap on the wrist, or was it a compromise that was reached, where they decided, look, we have to do something, what should we do?

01:13:24.000 Well, what had happened is, so the first report was all track and field mandated, and there was so much evidence in regards to track and field.

01:13:36.000 More than other sport?

01:13:38.000 More than other sport because there was an individual investigation that only focused on track and field.

01:13:45.000 And even after they released this investigation, all these athletes are saying, well, wait, you got to go investigate biathlon.

01:13:52.000 You got to go investigate bobsled.

01:13:54.000 You got to go investigate speed skating and wrestling and soccer and basketball and, you know, everything.

01:14:01.000 But they didn't do that.

01:14:03.000 And so there was so much in the track and field investigation, the athletics investigation, that the IAAF, the International Athletics Federation, dealing with their own scandal, if you remember this a few years ago, Yeah.

01:14:27.000 Yeah.

01:14:29.000 Yeah.

01:14:39.000 Gregory upholds the ban, and they uphold the ban because of Gregory's evidence.

01:14:44.000 So they were trying to figure out whether or not to uphold the ban, and it was on the eve of the Rio Olympics, and Gregory, through the authorities that he had been working with, Was able to get that evidence and information to the IAAF. The IAAF was able to see that and they upheld the ban for Russia's track and field team,

01:15:07.000 which, you know, is a pretty big punishment.

01:15:12.000 At least it's taking a stance of, you know, this kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated.

01:15:20.000 Some.

01:15:21.000 Yeah.

01:15:22.000 Now, Gregory, what a...

01:15:26.000 Courageous and bold move on his part and what a sacrifice to Come forth with all this evidence to risk his life and to I Mean essentially blow the lid off all this.

01:15:37.000 I mean if it wasn't for him, what do you have?

01:15:41.000 Nothing, you know It's been a You know, I worry about him every day.

01:15:47.000 I'm sure I don't I'm not able to talk to him.

01:15:50.000 I'm not in contact with him Can you get any messages from anyone else to him or him to you?

01:15:58.000 I've been told by his attorneys that he's healthy, that he's in good spirits.

01:16:04.000 I know he's continued to work and provide information to WADA, apparently the IOC. He will be providing information to the Olympics as part of their investigation.

01:16:18.000 I've been told that he's worked with global authorities and global police agencies to help provide information because he has so much information, not just about Russia, but of all sorts of other things that were going on, of bribes and Payments being made and,

01:16:35.000 you know, I don't know what evidence in that regard that he has, but he at least has the, you know, he knows so much.

01:16:44.000 And I know that he has been working effortlessly through his legal counsel to provide this information and to work with With global authorities to work with WADA now hopefully the IOC the Olympics US authorities But you know,

01:17:05.000 I I don't know what his life's gonna be like.

01:17:08.000 Yeah, that's what I was gonna say and I don't know if and when he'll ever be able to see his his family we launched A month or so ago, if anybody's interested on my Twitter page, we launched a GoFundMe for Gregory through an organization called Fair Sport.

01:17:31.000 Fair Sport was launched by one of the producers on my film and a guy by the name of Johan Koss, who's been a huge advocate in anti-doping.

01:17:43.000 And Fair Sport was basically launched to help other whistleblowers in sport come forward with information, but also to help Gregory in this ongoing battle.

01:17:57.000 We're being told that he needs to get money to his wife for an attorney, for legal help.

01:18:04.000 And she's stuck in Russia, right?

01:18:06.000 They took her passport away.

01:18:07.000 They won't let her leave.

01:18:08.000 That's what we're being told.

01:18:12.000 So he has incredible legal bills and other help that he needs.

01:18:21.000 And so we've launched this GoFundMe to try to To try to provide him a lifeline over the next years, years, because his future is so uncertain.

01:18:38.000 I mean, where is he going to live?

01:18:40.000 How is he going to live?

01:18:41.000 How is he going to pay his bills?

01:18:43.000 And he wants to continue to, you know, be, you know, kind of Frank Abergnell, you know, a guy who had, you know, committed wrongdoings, but he was under the orders of the ministry,

01:18:58.000 but he has a lot of information that he has risked his life to bring forward to the world because he felt a huge Burden to do this and he wanted to do this.

01:19:12.000 This was his this was his doing and ultimately he entrusted me as his Conduit to bring this story forward and also Gregory has attempted suicide in the past I mean,

01:19:27.000 so you're you're and under much less dire circumstances.

01:19:30.000 I mean He's essentially a wanted man right now with no freedom.

01:19:36.000 I mean, he's in hiding.

01:19:40.000 And the Russians most likely want him dead. 0.68

01:19:43.000 Absolutely.

01:19:45.000 You know, you see in this response to...

01:19:49.000 His New York Times op-ed that they would, there had been a lot of, if you followed the news in Russia, they had already taken lots and lots of action against him to, you know, kind of silence him to make him irrelevant.

01:20:04.000 In the film, I think one of the most shocking moments was at the end of every year, Putin gives a huge press conference with hundreds of journalists and And the doping scandal gets brought up,

01:20:19.000 of course.

01:20:20.000 And he goes, and this is just, you know, six months ago, goes, oh, the guy who defected, the citizen who defected, the scientist, I don't even remember his name.

01:20:34.000 And you're literally going there.

01:20:36.000 Are you kidding me?

01:20:37.000 Putin just says he doesn't remember Gregory's name yet.

01:20:41.000 Yet Gregory dominated Russian news for the past year.

01:20:46.000 He has been front page story for a solid year.

01:20:50.000 This has been the single biggest scandal in sport and in Russian history.

01:20:55.000 He's arguably the biggest whistleblower in the history of Russia.

01:20:59.000 And you have the president of the country saying he doesn't even remember his name.

01:21:03.000 And what that is, is that's George Orwell.

01:21:06.000 That's 1984. That's doublethink.

01:21:09.000 That's essentially fake news.

01:21:12.000 That's pretending that by not acknowledging, you know, him is not to acknowledge the truth.

01:21:19.000 And that is what is going on in this world.

01:21:23.000 And so here you see Putin looks straight to the camera and say, I don't even remember Gregory's name.

01:21:29.000 I mean, that would be the equivalent of asking an American, who's our president right now?

01:21:36.000 And somebody saying, I don't remember his name.

01:21:41.000 I mean, that is the level of lies and deception.

01:21:44.000 And then you see their reaction to the New York Times op-ed by issuing an arrest warrant for Gregory to again paint him as a criminal, to again pretend that this didn't happen, to again try to obstruct the truth and shift the focus away from the truth and the punishment and what all this evidence is and his bravery of coming forward,

01:22:06.000 and instead try to turn him into a criminal.

01:22:10.000 So it's startling, and it's incredibly upsetting.

01:22:16.000 It was one of the reasons why we latched on to 1984 and Orwell in the film, because everything that is Gregory's life was doublethink, but everything that's going on in our lives, In our geopolitical cycle and with Russia and Putin,

01:22:33.000 it's doublethink.

01:22:34.000 The truth is no longer the truth, and you don't know what news to believe or what not to believe.

01:22:41.000 This is obviously very unexpected for you.

01:22:43.000 I mean, you set out to do one documentary and another thing reveals itself in the middle of it, and something incredibly serious.

01:22:49.000 What is the impact of this been like for you?

01:22:52.000 I mean the weight of this all carrying this around with you It's been a lot From the from November of last year when Gregory came to Los Angeles to us ultimately going to the New York Times and In May of last year May 2016 There was about a seven-month period where myself and my producing partner

01:23:22.000 Dan Kogan with Impact Partners and my other producers Jim Swartz and David Fialco, we had this information and this evidence and we knew what this was.

01:23:36.000 And we knew how big it was.

01:23:39.000 And so there was this period of about seven months of a daily crisis navigation of, A, how do we keep this information protected?

01:23:50.000 We moved our production offices three times.

01:23:53.000 We moved Gregory into different safe houses three times.

01:23:55.000 Why did you move your production offices?

01:23:57.000 Because we didn't know if we were under surveillance.

01:24:00.000 Did you feel like you were under surveillance?

01:24:02.000 Felt like we were under surveillance, yeah.

01:24:04.000 What was giving you that indication?

01:24:06.000 It was, you know, we'd see, like, a car.

01:24:10.000 Gregory, who was not in protective custody at the time, was getting information from his people out of Russia that they were, you know, that they were looking for him, that they were, you know, concerned.

01:24:24.000 And we knew the gravity of what this was.

01:24:28.000 Like, I understood once I dove into this evidence with Gregory How big this was, like what this truly meant, and that I felt that, you know, Russia and the Olympics, but Russia would probably do anything at all costs to try to,

01:24:47.000 you know, not have this come forward, because what this meant, and it meant that their Olympic Games were a fraud, and that they had We've been cheating global sport for the entire modern history, and that it showed the extent to which Russia and the ministry was willing to tamper in international affairs, 0.62

01:25:09.000 not just sport.

01:25:10.000 And so I understood that, and Gregory understood that.

01:25:13.000 So it was a daily crisis management.

01:25:16.000 We went through about five months.

01:25:19.000 Where we couldn't even get him a lawyer, because every law firm that we would go to would have some sort of conflict of interest with Russia.

01:25:27.000 It was really, really intense.

01:25:34.000 And during that time, two of his friends died within two weeks of each other of heart attacks at age 52 and 59. And Nikita Kamayev, who's 52 years old, and he's running, he had resigned from running the Russian Anti-Doping Agency.

01:25:50.000 So technically, the Russian Anti-Doping Agency shouldn't be working with Gregory's lab, the WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency lab, those should be two independent things.

01:26:00.000 But these two were working together because there was never any anti-doping in Russia.

01:26:06.000 It was the anti-anti-doping system posing as anti-doping.

01:26:11.000 So Nikita is still in Russia.

01:26:14.000 He's been forced to resign.

01:26:15.000 And Gregory and him are still talking via Skype.

01:26:20.000 And Nikita tells Gregory that he's going to go, that he's writing a book.

01:26:26.000 And that he's been in contact with David Walsh.

01:26:29.000 And David Walsh is the Sunday Times journalist that chased Armstrong for 10 years.

01:26:34.000 He's probably one of the most renowned, famous sports journalists in the world.

01:26:39.000 That Stephen Freer's film, The Program, is based on David Walsh.

01:26:43.000 And so Nikita had reached out to David Walsh and him and David Walsh were making a plan to meet.

01:26:48.000 And Nikita had told Gregory that, you know, he was going to meet with David Walsh.

01:26:52.000 Gregory was like, this is, you can't do this.

01:26:54.000 You're still in Russia, Nikita.

01:26:56.000 You're still in Russia.

01:26:57.000 What are you doing?

01:26:58.000 And a day later, Nikita dies of a heart attack.

01:27:02.000 This was a guy who was healthy, had never had a heart problem in his life, was a lifelong athlete.

01:27:09.000 And he was 52?

01:27:10.000 52. And apparently he died over about three and a half hours while Nikita's wife was on the phone to Gregory crying.

01:27:20.000 Did they have any suspicion of how they did it?

01:27:26.000 Gregory goes, ah, you just die of a heart attack.

01:27:29.000 They poison you or whatever.

01:27:30.000 I don't know how they do it, but Russia isn't like ISIS. They don't do something and then take responsibility for it.

01:27:37.000 Right, obviously.

01:27:38.000 There's been so many stories, like in BuzzFeed last year, of the 14 deaths in London all tied to various adversaries of Russia.

01:27:46.000 There's been multiple books written on it.

01:27:50.000 Even, you know, which was not widely reported, the Russian agent that co-offered apparently the Trump dossier with the MI6, the former MI6 agent, he was found dead in the back of Alexis about five months ago outside of Moscow.

01:28:08.000 So, you know, clearly they play by a different set of rules.

01:28:14.000 And so this is all going on as we're figuring out how to bring this story to the world.

01:28:20.000 And our government, the U.S. government gets involved, the Department of Justice and FBI. They started investigating and we realized that we have to bring this story public and that it's the best way for Gregory to hopefully be protected.

01:28:40.000 And that once it's public, it'll be in the world.

01:28:45.000 And so we brought it to the New York Times with Gregory and sat with them for three days.

01:28:51.000 And then they broke the story and then as a film we then followed that story as it unraveled.

01:28:59.000 But yeah, it's been very heavy and very worried about Gregory and also incredibly frustrating to see that What you kind of read about in conspiracy novels and you read about and,

01:29:21.000 you know, all these guys who believe that, you know, everybody, you know, of how the system works and then getting to witness this firsthand.

01:29:32.000 And also, I think, as an athlete, having kind of my Olympic ideal of what the Olympics is being shattered and seeing that this organization really has no regard for anything other than their own business interests.

01:29:46.000 Now, how much time does Gregory have in protective custody?

01:29:52.000 Do they have a determined time period where they're willing to protect him?

01:29:58.000 I mean, it's the U.S. government that's protecting him, I assume?

01:30:01.000 To my understanding, you know, that is the case.

01:30:08.000 But I am not being given updates.

01:30:14.000 And I don't want to have that information.

01:30:20.000 Right.

01:30:22.000 You know, I'm very optimistic that he'll continue to be okay and that also if something were to go wrong, we'll be able to help him with that,

01:30:37.000 you know, through his counsel and team.

01:30:40.000 But it's certainly very concerning.

01:30:44.000 You know, I think he clearly understood the risks before coming forward.

01:30:50.000 We had tried to get his family out of Russia and they didn't understand the gravity of the situation, which I'm sure they do now.

01:30:59.000 I don't know.

01:31:04.000 In the film you fall in love with him.

01:31:06.000 You just fall in love with this guy and you see him for who he is, which was incredibly important for me.

01:31:13.000 As the filmmaker and as his friend, I knew that it would be very easy to paint him into an illusion of somebody that he wasn't.

01:31:22.000 Some despicable guy who doped all the Russians.

01:31:25.000 And then what you see in the film is truly this loving...

01:31:29.000 Kind character who essentially is caught up in a system that he helped perpetuate but he certainly didn't create and that he is ultimately an employee of the Russian government and he was doing his job and that was his job.

01:31:52.000 It's such a complex issue.

01:31:55.000 And when you put all the pieces out on a table and you take into account all the different variables with doping and trying to catch these people and what the future holds.

01:32:05.000 And then what you were talking about with EPO, with some sort of a biological way to get your body, a genetic way to get your body to reproduce the same sort of chemicals.

01:32:14.000 It seems like there's no real solution.

01:32:17.000 You lay it all out and you look at what happened in Sochi.

01:32:21.000 You look at what's going on right now with the Olympics allowing the Russians to still compete in the Brazilian Games even after all this.

01:32:28.000 It doesn't seem like, oh, this has to happen.

01:32:32.000 Or, oh, you just put this over there.

01:32:34.000 You just look at this big mess and you go, where does this go?

01:32:38.000 You know, I think that that is a valid question, because when you start to look at where it goes, first of all, I really believe in, you know, the concept behind clean sport.

01:32:54.000 Like, I really believe in that, and I believe that That athletes should go and compete clean because those are the rules.

01:33:07.000 You come from the MMA world.

01:33:10.000 You're going into a fight.

01:33:13.000 It's enough of a fight that it's a fight that at least you want to believe that you're shaking the guy's hand. 1.00

01:33:21.000 And that if he kicks your ass, he kicks your ass, but he did it through hard work and determination and dedication. 0.99

01:33:30.000 And that's the concept, I think, that fans go into watching sports and that athletes in general go into sport. 1.00

01:33:41.000 But we have the flip side of that, which is, you know, human beings are in a constant...

01:33:50.000 We're not done evolving.

01:33:52.000 There's a great philosopher, futurist, but he's also an investor.

01:33:58.000 His name is Juan Enriquez, if you've seen his TED Talks and stuff.

01:34:02.000 Really interesting.

01:34:04.000 And he gets into how And he makes this whole scientific argument about how human beings are not done evolving, that we're just not done evolving.

01:34:13.000 We believe that we've done evolving, but he shows through history how we're not done evolving, just like we went from, you know, from Neanderthals and humans and, you know, and he goes through the whole history of it and he shows how basically humans are not done evolving.

01:34:29.000 And part of that not being done evolving is we're constantly figuring out how to live longer.

01:34:35.000 I sat with a guy yesterday who said the problem isn't whether or not human beings are going to start living to 110 or 120 years old.

01:34:42.000 The problem is that we're figuring out how to keep our body healthy, but we haven't figured out how to keep our minds healthy, and that all these people that are going to be living longer lives, there's the problem with Alzheimer's now and dementia, that even though you live a longer life,

01:34:58.000 your brain is still deteriorating.

01:35:00.000 The point being is that we're in an age of medical and scientific technology that every single day is another invention, another advance.

01:35:10.000 And, you know, for $200,000 or whatever it is, right now, in the embryo, you can change your kid's eye color.

01:35:18.000 You can go in and decide that your kid's going to be six foot and I'm 5'8".

01:35:22.000 You know, I mean, wow, I would have loved my parents to have To have seen to it that I was six feet tall.

01:35:30.000 You know, and all these kind of things that are going on right now in the medical science and technological advancement world are also things that the world is going to have to start figuring out what they do on the fields of play and athletic because the humans of the future Are going to be better versions of what we have right now,

01:35:55.000 just through science, just through technology.

01:35:57.000 And then the question again goes into the world of what's clean, what's not clean, what's anti-doping, how do you police sport?

01:36:06.000 And those are very hard questions to answer.

01:36:09.000 Yeah, they really are.

01:36:12.000 On one hand, you don't want to stop medical, technological progress.

01:36:17.000 You don't want to stop people from being able to cure diseases.

01:36:22.000 It's almost like some of the technology that they use for aerospace makes its way into everyday use.

01:36:30.000 Some of the technology that they're going to use for All these different medical innovations, all these different ways to cure diseases and increase human performance, they're going to make their way into athletics.

01:36:41.000 And it's going to be a very blurry line between what is natural and what's not natural.

01:36:45.000 I mean, if your parents decide to genetically alter you in the womb and change you to a super athlete, is that your fault?

01:36:52.000 And if it's not your choice or your fault, should you be allowed to compete?

01:36:56.000 That was always the argument about Corellin.

01:36:58.000 You know Alexander Corellin.

01:37:00.000 His parents were like 5'5 and 5'6. 0.99

01:37:03.000 They were these tiny people and he was a fucking giant and a gorilla. 0.98

01:37:08.000 And they used to call him in Russia, they used to call him the experiment. 0.97

01:37:13.000 And if you look at Corellin, you look at him physically, I mean, there's very few athletes you're ever going to see that look like that guy.

01:37:19.000 I mean, he was close to 300 pounds, moved like a cat, and would literally launch grown men through the air.

01:37:26.000 They were so terrified of his physical prowess that grown men used to flatten out on their stomach and literally try to cling to the earth to avoid being thrown by him.

01:37:36.000 Are you aware of him?

01:37:37.000 No. 1.00

01:37:38.000 Look at this motherfucker. 1.00

01:37:40.000 Whoa. 1.00

01:37:41.000 Yeah.

01:37:41.000 Whoa.

01:37:42.000 He was undefeated in Olympic Games up until Rulon Gardner beat him, who is an American.

01:37:48.000 Go to that picture which shows his full body, which shows his legs in that image.

01:37:52.000 There's a black and white that you have up there.

01:37:55.000 How many years ago it says...

01:37:58.000 Several.

01:37:59.000 I forget when he's talking.

01:38:03.000 There's a full image of that, Jamie.

01:38:06.000 Try to find that image on the right, but there's a full one where you get to see his entire build. 0.99

01:38:11.000 I mean, he was a fucking freak. 0.95

01:38:14.000 And so his thing was throwing these men, and he's a heavyweight, so these guys are 300 plus pounds, he would throw them through the air. 0.99

01:38:24.000 Like, in a way that very few people could do.

01:38:27.000 Look at that picture of him with his arm raised right below that black and white. 1.00

01:38:30.000 He was fucking monstrous. 1.00

01:38:33.000 Wow. 1.00

01:38:34.000 And without a doubt, juice to the tits. 0.99

01:38:37.000 I mean, no question about it, especially given the information that was disclosed in your documentary.

01:38:43.000 I mean, this was all, I believe, I believe he was through the 80s or the 90s and into the early 2000s.

01:38:50.000 Yeah.

01:38:50.000 That's when he retired.

01:38:53.000 But, I mean, he was a freak of all freaks and the most terrifying man in all of Russian amateur wrestling, for sure.

01:39:01.000 Everybody was afraid of him.

01:39:03.000 This is him standing above the greatest mixed martial arts heavyweight of all time, Fedor Emelianenko.

01:39:09.000 And you see how much bigger he is than Fedor.

01:39:11.000 Look at that. 1.00

01:39:12.000 He was a fucking giant. 1.00

01:39:13.000 See if you can find a picture of him with his parents. 1.00

01:39:16.000 And the story was always that he was basically a genetic mutant.

01:39:19.000 Well, that they did something.

01:39:21.000 I mean, it was so long ago, it's very difficult to ascertain what was capable, what was possible back then.

01:39:29.000 But his performance in wrestling was just stunning.

01:39:33.000 Obviously trained hard, obviously very skilled.

01:39:36.000 I mean, one of the things about Russian wrestlers is not just the fact that their physical prowess, but they're incredibly technical.

01:39:43.000 Some of the most technically advanced wrestlers in the world, in terms of their tactics and the way they would drill.

01:39:52.000 I mean, they really had it down to a science, and there was so much...

01:39:56.000 Gravity to it all.

01:39:57.000 It was so important. 0.99

01:39:59.000 And on top of that, juice to the tits. 1.00

01:40:01.000 So there was like so many factors that came into play.

01:40:04.000 And when you're talking about this state-sponsored Russian, you know, doping program, I mean, you have to really think and include Karelin in that because he was just a massive, massive part of it. 0.50

01:40:17.000 Yeah, I'm sure.

01:40:18.000 I mean...

01:40:19.000 You know, and people have always speculated for many years, like Fedor, who is arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time, was competing in Pride, which was an openly dirty league.

01:40:29.000 When Pride was opposite the UFC, the UFC had very rudimentary testing at the time.

01:40:34.000 What they would essentially do is do urine testing at the weigh-ins, which Victor Conte famously said is just an intelligence test.

01:40:42.000 Yeah, I know Victor well.

01:40:44.000 I got to know him pretty well through this.

01:40:46.000 Yeah, Victor did the podcast a few years back and was talking about it, and this was pre-USADA. Now the UFC has hired USADA and Nowitzki, and Jeff Nowitzki has done a fantastic job and unfortunately just caught Jon Jones, who re-won the title, knocking out Daniel Cormier.

01:41:03.000 They stripped him of his title, and now Cormier is going to be the champion again.

01:41:06.000 It's so fucking confusing and distorted.

01:41:09.000 Because in mixed martial arts, as opposed to even any other sport, even wrestling, wrestling your health is on the line, but nowhere near as much as it is in mixed martial arts. 0.95

01:41:17.000 So the cheating, it's not a matter of a guy getting across the finish line faster than you.

01:41:21.000 It's a matter of a guy landing blows, or a woman landing blows, that they would not have been able to land had they not been cheating. 0.98

01:41:29.000 It gets very, very tricky because you're talking essentially about not just illegal activity, not just cheating, but potentially assault.

01:41:38.000 And what if someone dies?

01:41:39.000 What if someone is doping and it's proven that they're doping and the beating they give their opponent leads to that opponent dying?

01:41:47.000 You can make a real argument that manslaughter charges at the very least should be filed, if not murder.

01:41:56.000 The implications are massive.

01:41:58.000 You can certainly make that implication.

01:42:00.000 In this story, even the idea where you have thousands of athletes essentially waking up and going, wait.

01:42:11.000 Maybe I would have gotten a medal.

01:42:13.000 I would have gotten a medal.

01:42:14.000 And had I gotten a medal, what would be different in my life today?

01:42:19.000 It would change the whole world.

01:42:20.000 It would change the whole world.

01:42:22.000 And that is why this problem is so, I think, Hard and difficult to combat because when you look at what is at stake, the economics at stake, the box of Wheaties, essentially, that going in and nobody remembers second place.

01:42:40.000 Doesn't mean anything.

01:42:41.000 Doesn't mean anything.

01:42:42.000 It means nothing.

01:42:43.000 It's all one.

01:42:43.000 You win or you don't.

01:42:45.000 Yeah, you win or you lose.

01:42:46.000 And if you win, comes all the spoils.

01:42:51.000 And if you're not the winner, you might as well have almost never been there.

01:42:54.000 Well, and different than any other athletic endeavor because essentially it is their life, but is not professional, which is a really weird thing because you have so much money involved in the Olympics. 0.97

01:43:06.000 Billions and billions of dollars are going into the hands of people who don't even fucking compete. 0.71

01:43:11.000 Which is insane. 0.96

01:43:12.000 It's unlike any other athletic pursuit.

01:43:13.000 If you look at professional sports, I mean, whether it's the NBA or boxing or what have you, the vast majority of the money goes to the athletes themselves.

01:43:24.000 Now, not in the Olympics. 0.99

01:43:26.000 In the Olympics, fucking zero. 0.99

01:43:28.000 No, it's like college basketball. 1.00

01:43:31.000 Yeah, it's insane.

01:43:31.000 You know, it's purely an honor to...

01:43:35.000 Yeah.

01:43:53.000 And sport is privatized, and the athletes get paid, and that even when you go to the Olympics as an American athlete, you might be competing for America, but America is not paying your way to the Olympics.

01:44:07.000 You're not on the U.S. payroll.

01:44:09.000 Michael Phelps is not being paid by the U.S. government to go compete.

01:44:13.000 In the Olympics.

01:44:14.000 But in China, in Russia, in any essentially, you know, post-communist, communist, any sort of country like that, the athletes are employees of the government.

01:44:29.000 And they're essentially state employees, and their job is to go and compete for their country, and they're being paid to do so.

01:44:36.000 And the spoils are so incredibly large for the athletes, even in America, that people are still going to be willing to put it on the line and compete because you could be that Michael Phelps guy that winds up getting incredibly rich and famous from winning the Olympics.

01:44:50.000 So people are willing to compete and essentially risk their physical body, risk all of their time, their effort, their dedication to trying to accomplish something that All the world's going to be watching massive profits being made, 0.51

01:45:06.000 and they don't see a fucking penny of it unless they win. 0.82

01:45:10.000 That's right. 0.98

01:45:10.000 And even if they win, it's a consequence of them winning that they see the money. 0.98

01:45:14.000 Exactly.

01:45:14.000 But if they win...

01:45:16.000 If you're Simone Biles, if you're Phelps, if you're any one of these athletes in basically sport that people don't really watch and there's money behind any other time of the year other than the Olympics, every four years people care about gymnastics.

01:45:33.000 They don't care about gymnastics any other time, but once every four years everybody cares about gymnastics.

01:45:38.000 Who's watching swimming today?

01:45:40.000 Exactly. 0.97

01:45:40.000 Nobody gives a fuck about swimming. 0.97

01:45:41.000 Nobody cares about swimming, but once every four years they care about swimming. 0.96

01:45:44.000 And if you can go in and capitalize on that, you have a life.

01:45:49.000 It's just so crazy.

01:45:50.000 And if you don't, you don't.

01:45:53.000 I mean, that's the whole kind of Armstrong argument of it.

01:45:57.000 What is this, Jim?

01:45:57.000 He's a basketball player for the Australia team.

01:46:00.000 He's actually an NBA player putting together a shower curtain for where he was staying.

01:46:04.000 And on the side here describes the 196-cabin-9-deck supership that the men and women's U.S. basketball teams were staying on and had 250 police officers watching them.

01:46:18.000 Yeah, sure.

01:46:19.000 I don't know.

01:46:20.000 It doesn't say who paid for that either.

01:46:22.000 I don't know if they paid for their own.

01:46:24.000 Yeah, who knows.

01:46:25.000 But the point being that the Olympics are essentially a professional endeavor where the athletes, the ones who people are watching, are not getting any of that money.

01:46:36.000 And it's a dirty organization in that regard, because it's not amateur.

01:46:40.000 If it was amateur, the world would see it for free.

01:46:42.000 I mean, it's not.

01:46:43.000 You have to pay massive amounts of money.

01:46:45.000 I don't know how many billions and billions and billions of dollars.

01:46:48.000 I can't remember the contract.

01:46:49.000 It's staggering what NBC paid for the Olympic rights for the next however many games it is.

01:46:55.000 Yeah, and what they get paid from the advertisers.

01:46:57.000 And that's just the U.S. That's just the U.S. So on a global level, this is the most watched This is the most watched event on planet Earth.

01:47:07.000 Yeah.

01:47:08.000 Nobody...

01:47:09.000 World Cup soccer and the Olympics, but the Olympics even more.

01:47:11.000 Yeah.

01:47:12.000 It's the most watched event on planet Earth.

01:47:14.000 And it's...

01:47:15.000 There it is.

01:47:16.000 $7.75 billion through 2032. That's what NBC paid.

01:47:21.000 Wow.

01:47:22.000 It's stunning.

01:47:23.000 I mean, I don't know what the solution is, but it never set right with me.

01:47:28.000 I always felt like it was gross.

01:47:30.000 I mean, it just didn't make any sense that everyone is getting paid but the athletes.

01:47:34.000 It's essentially they've managed to keep it this way.

01:47:38.000 They had this situation in place a long, long time ago, and then it became this massive global business, this huge empire, and they managed to keep the athletes out of the pay loop.

01:47:51.000 It's really...

01:47:53.000 It's really a mess.

01:47:54.000 And not only that, there were so many people that have profited to the tunes of millions and millions of dollars through the essentially bribery of other countries into all the politics behind that to protect their athletes so that the athletes can continue to win medals.

01:48:15.000 Gregory told me a story, which I wonder when this will come true, because I certainly can't verify it, but he told me a story of the former Olympic medical director, and the guy apparently was the head medical director of the Olympics for like 15 years or something.

01:48:33.000 And according to Gregory, this guy lives in an incredible chateau somewhere in Switzerland.

01:48:41.000 It's like a mind-boggling house.

01:48:43.000 And he's like an orthopedic doctor.

01:48:49.000 But he's the head medical director of the Olympics.

01:48:51.000 And according to Gregory, he's accepted millions and millions and millions of dollars in bribes.

01:48:59.000 Through different countries to conceal positives over all these various Olympic Games.

01:49:05.000 Whatever it was, you know, Slovakia or whatever, there'd be a positive and this guy would get, you know, half a million dollars to conceal it.

01:49:13.000 There's a positive here and he'd take the money and conceal it.

01:49:16.000 And I wouldn't be surprised if that's, I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg, because this is huge money and these countries are willing to pay this big money because for a country...

01:49:32.000 Like Russia or China or, you know, even Jamaica, right, to win medals, what that does for its country on a world level.

01:49:43.000 All of a sudden, when Jamaica's winning medals, everybody's going, wait, we want to go to Jamaica.

01:49:48.000 I mean, just what that Jamaican team did probably did for tourism dollars to Jamaica.

01:49:56.000 I mean, it's staggering, right?

01:49:58.000 It made Jamaica, and Victor Conti will talk about this, you know, in detail, how the five fastest runners on planet Earth are Jamaican, and Conti will go, yeah, right.

01:50:09.000 And Don Catlin goes, yeah, right.

01:50:11.000 But look at the money that that had to have brought Jamaica.

01:50:16.000 Of tourism, of advertising, of interest, of everybody's going, wait, I want to go to Jamaica.

01:50:22.000 Oh, I should go to Jamaica.

01:50:23.000 I should go see Jamaica.

01:50:24.000 You know?

01:50:25.000 Where did these people come from?

01:50:27.000 Yeah, where did they come from?

01:50:28.000 Yeah.

01:50:29.000 You know, when Fedor was the king of the world, as far as the heavyweights in mixed martial arts, Putin was regularly at his fights.

01:50:36.000 And it was always like this big deal that, you know, Putin was there and Fedor would smash these people, especially when Fedor fought in Russia.

01:50:45.000 And, you know, I mean, it's a massive, massive deal to have a top fighter or top athlete representing your country.

01:50:53.000 I mean, it's just a huge deal for you to have the number one guy.

01:50:58.000 Oh, I mean, absolutely.

01:50:59.000 I mean, you look at, you know, like Sharapova, you know, and, you know, Gregory would tell me stories of, you know, I mean, he knew for years what she was taking, what she was up to.

01:51:15.000 He was advising her family.

01:51:17.000 I mean, it's just, according to him, she even lied about her age.

01:51:23.000 I don't...

01:51:24.000 That apparently the age that she was playing at, that she was reported as a couple years younger.

01:51:32.000 That was all part of...

01:51:33.000 But Russia helped with that.

01:51:35.000 Wasn't there a situation with Serena Williams where the testers came to her house and she locked herself in a safe room and called the police?

01:51:43.000 Oh, I didn't hear that one, but...

01:51:44.000 Yeah, was it Serena or Venus?

01:51:46.000 Yeah.

01:51:47.000 Was it Serena?

01:51:48.000 See if you can find that story. 1.00

01:51:49.000 Yeah, the tester showed up at her house and she's like, not now, motherfucker. 1.00

01:51:53.000 Click. 1.00

01:51:54.000 Locked yourself in a safe room.

01:51:56.000 Gregory.

01:51:57.000 You got to think about the amount of money that's involved in these things.

01:52:00.000 And, you know, if you know that other people, Serena Williams locks herself in panic room and drug test mix-up. 1.00

01:52:07.000 Oh, it's just a mix-up, ladies and gentlemen.

01:52:10.000 In a Los Angeles mansion.

01:52:11.000 No worries.

01:52:13.000 The tennis legend's assistant called 911 at 6 a.m.

01:52:17.000 local time last Wednesday and told the emergency operator that a prowler had been spotted at the luxurious property.

01:52:24.000 She retreated to her panic room in a bid to protect herself. 0.59

01:52:29.000 Boy, they are giving her every benefit of the doubt in that one, huh?

01:52:33.000 I mean, it's hard.

01:52:35.000 It's really...

01:52:35.000 But the intruder turned...

01:52:36.000 Hold on.

01:52:38.000 Turned out to be a random drug tester who stopped by unannounced for a urine sample.

01:52:43.000 Well, you know, the cops responded 9-1 but quickly left the property when the misunderstanding was discovered.

01:52:49.000 It was not known whether or not Williams submitted to the drug test.

01:52:52.000 Well, that's...

01:52:54.000 Yeah, that means she didn't.

01:52:55.000 If it's not known, that means she didn't.

01:52:58.000 Or potentially in the panic room with lots of saline solution. 0.99

01:53:04.000 Goddamn. 0.99

01:53:05.000 I mean, but I couldn't imagine if you're thinking about the amount of money that a certain person who is a world-renowned athlete in whatever sport is, I mean, the amount of money that's involved is fucking staggering. 0.99

01:53:16.000 And if you have stringent drug testing, you know, that's why the John Jones thing was so disheartening.

01:53:21.000 Because, you know, Jon Jones, who's arguably, if not the greatest mixed martial arts fighter of all time, he's number two.

01:53:28.000 You know, maybe Mighty Mouse is number one, but you would say that Mighty Mouse has not faced this kind of competition that Jon has.

01:53:34.000 So that would put Jon into number one in a lot of people's eyes.

01:53:37.000 But to have him test positive like that was so disheartening for people and just such a heartbreaker. 0.60

01:53:43.000 Because people had just hoped and prayed that, you know, him coming back and winning that way, like, maybe he'll get his shit together. 0.99

01:53:49.000 You know, when you see a guy with massive potential and he's been involved in all these fuck-ups in the past, maybe finally he's got his shit together. 0.89

01:53:56.000 Or maybe what happened is he came back and he realized that he was never gonna be what he was gonna be. 0.96

01:54:06.000 And that whole psychology kicked in.

01:54:10.000 And I think, you know, you see that in so many guys.

01:54:15.000 I think that once you've been on that program or you understand that program, I think it's probably very, very hard psychologically to go off of it.

01:54:24.000 And also, you know, you're always going to be pushing those limits.

01:54:27.000 It's always the Icarus story. 0.99

01:54:30.000 There's, you know, in Armstrong in 2009 when he staged that comeback, You know, I believe that he was trying to do it clean, and then all of a sudden realized he was going to get his ass kicked doing it clean.

01:54:46.000 And you look at that comeback year, which is so interesting, that Contador, who beat him, set the all-time fastest times in that year, and that was supposed to be the clean tour.

01:54:59.000 That was the redemption tour.

01:55:01.000 That was the tour to prove that it's clean.

01:55:03.000 And yet in that tour...

01:55:06.000 Contador set the all-time fastest times and, funny enough, that year where Armstrong got third, had he been doing the tour any other year, the watts per kilo that he had put up, the power that he had put up,

01:55:21.000 it was actually his best tour ever.

01:55:26.000 Ever.

01:55:27.000 So he came into that tour going, I'm going to win it, and yet his teammate, Condor and Schlecker, are out doping him, essentially.

01:55:36.000 Wow.

01:55:36.000 And so had it been any other year, he would have won that tour.

01:55:41.000 It's so crazy.

01:55:42.000 And now with CRISPR, you know, now with this new technology that allows people to essentially, I mean, it's on the table how the potential is going to completely play out.

01:55:53.000 But other countries are using it right now in embryos.

01:55:55.000 You know, whether or not humans in the United States, whether they're going to use it and you're going to see these...

01:56:01.000 It's not...

01:56:05.000 It's more like when.

01:56:06.000 As this technology progresses and it gets better and better, if you find out that your children have the genetic markers that could essentially lead to Alzheimer's down the road, why would you want your children to have Alzheimer's?

01:56:17.000 You wouldn't.

01:56:18.000 You wouldn't.

01:56:18.000 You would edit them.

01:56:19.000 They'll say, well, it's just a simple procedure.

01:56:22.000 It's no more dangerous than other medical procedures that we do every day.

01:56:27.000 We're just going to do it.

01:56:28.000 It'd be real simple.

01:56:29.000 By the way, do you have a height preference?

01:56:32.000 Would you like your child to have a ridiculous VO2 max? 0.99

01:56:37.000 Would you like your kid to be one of the most ridiculous mesomorphs the world has ever known? 1.00

01:56:42.000 Do you want a Herschel Walker-type body for your child? 0.99

01:56:44.000 Well, they can do it.

01:56:45.000 They can do it.

01:56:46.000 The technology's there right now.

01:56:49.000 Well, it's close.

01:56:50.000 The technology's there right now.

01:56:52.000 I was reading all these articles right now, which is funny.

01:56:56.000 Silicon Valley did a show with the blood bags.

01:56:59.000 If you saw that episode where the Gavin Belson character is having his blood swapped out by a 21-year-old, really good-looking young kid.

01:57:11.000 Peter Thiel does that on a regular basis.

01:57:13.000 And that was the lampooning of it.

01:57:15.000 But they've been doing all these tests in mice that if you take an old mouse and give it the blood of a young mouse, that the old mouse...

01:57:26.000 Starts, you know, basically reverse aging.

01:57:28.000 And if you give the old mouse blood to the young mouse, that the young mouse turns into an old mouse.

01:57:35.000 So, I mean, this is on the horizon.

01:57:39.000 I mean, this is there.

01:57:40.000 So the question is, what do you do about it?

01:57:43.000 I mean, you're like a, you know, you're an enthusiast, and the sports that you care about are dangerous, violent sports.

01:57:51.000 So what do you do about it?

01:57:53.000 It's a real question.

01:57:54.000 You know, and it's like all those things we were talking about earlier.

01:57:56.000 You put all the pieces on the table, and you try to imagine what's the solution.

01:58:00.000 I don't see the solution.

01:58:01.000 I don't know what it is, because I don't think...

01:58:02.000 We were talking about this with some friends.

01:58:05.000 We were saying, like, if everybody decides to stay clean, but yet the technology becomes viable for the average person, you're going to have a mailman that looks like the Incredible Hulk, and you're going to be watching these scrawny guys fighting the UFC. No one's going to tolerate that.

01:58:20.000 We're just going to have to assume at some point in time that all these people are enhanced.

01:58:24.000 We're just going to assume that it's more than just dedication and hard work.

01:58:29.000 And honestly, it's going to be a sad day when that happens, because when that does happen, and we just accept the fact that we've created these genetic freaks, they're not going to be special.

01:58:39.000 It's not going to stand out.

01:58:42.000 It was a special thing, because it was the 1980s, and there was really nothing...

01:58:46.000 I mean, who knows?

01:58:48.000 There was probably some steroids involved in that, too.

01:58:50.000 I mean, there was steroids involved in a lot of different things that we've just assumed there weren't.

01:58:54.000 Let's just leave that on the table.

01:58:56.000 But it wasn't genetics.

01:58:58.000 I mean, what you saw was a guy who was born that way, who was born with that freakish power and speed.

01:59:03.000 You didn't get it from a laboratory.

01:59:05.000 You didn't get it from somebody literally taking the embryo and altering the genetics in the embryo and making him a destruction machine, making him a violent force of nature like Mike Tyson was in his prime.

01:59:18.000 The idea that you could take a regular person like young Jamie over there and turn him into Some sort of crazy freak athlete.

01:59:26.000 It's weird because when a freak athlete comes along, you see them and you go, wow, that guy's a freak.

01:59:32.000 This is crazy.

01:59:33.000 No one can do that.

01:59:34.000 I've never seen anybody do that before.

01:59:36.000 But then you look at the money behind it.

01:59:37.000 Yeah.

01:59:38.000 And then you look at, as in this film, you see all of a sudden the geopolitics behind it.

01:59:44.000 Yeah.

01:59:44.000 That in the U.S. or whatever, we're looking at it on the...

01:59:48.000 You know, the $40 million a year contract level of it and whether or not that's ethical and what do we do about that all of a sudden we have athletes as genetic mutants and what is that future?

01:59:59.000 But then when you look at it on the geopolitical level and what a country is willing to do to win and what it means for their athletes to win and assert power.

02:00:09.000 I mean, like, I remember when, you know, a couple years ago when Germany won the World Cup.

02:00:14.000 I mean, that was...

02:00:17.000 I mean, German pride had to have been at a staggering level.

02:00:23.000 I mean, you probably could have went into any bar in Germany and said something, you know, and you would have got your face beaten.

02:00:31.000 I mean, it is because of the emotion that people get connected to with their athletes and their sports team.

02:00:38.000 Yeah.

02:00:39.000 Governments, in the case of Icarus, you understand what that is.

02:00:44.000 This is so far beyond, you know, it goes into global power, and how do you consolidate power?

02:00:52.000 And sport, in many ways, is that vehicle, at least as I see it.

02:00:58.000 Yeah, it certainly is.

02:00:59.000 I mean, it's such a huge part of the recreation of the people and, you know, giving people something to be excited about.

02:01:04.000 Now, when you do take into consideration this new technology that's on the horizon, CRISPR, and who knows what's after CRISPR, right?

02:01:12.000 And then you look at what Russia's been willing to do with their state-sponsored doping program, you've got to think they're already involved in that.

02:01:20.000 Already?

02:01:21.000 Well, you know, Gregory said something to me interesting.

02:01:24.000 He says, well, you know, whatever they put on that WADA list, meaning whatever banned substances they put on the list, we've already got in Russia, we've already got another 10 or 20 that we're messing with.

02:01:40.000 If you remember last year, the whole Meldonium scandal with Sharapova and all these athletes.

02:01:46.000 A couple guys in the U.S. On Meldonium.

02:01:49.000 Well, that was a substance that Russia had been, you know, messing with for years, knowing that it wasn't on the ban list.

02:01:57.000 And then they essentially put it on the ban list like that, and then they started testing for it, and they did it as a, you know, it was very intentional to go catch everybody on Meldonium.

02:02:08.000 But, you know, according to Gregory, they're already figuring out the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.

02:02:17.000 Especially when you have a state-sponsored program, and there are no state-sponsored programs that we know of like that in America.

02:02:23.000 I mean, that would give them a massive advantage.

02:02:26.000 No, we don't know of any program where, I mean, when you think about what that is, it would be like the equivalent of Obama or Trump, you know, going, hey, American athlete, you need to be on this program if you're going to be on the national team and represent America.

02:02:46.000 You go on this program, and if you don't want to be on this program, well, you're not on the team.

02:02:50.000 And what Gregory was doing, which was part of the whole ethical and moral conundrum, which is an interesting thing which we never get into in the film, is he was constantly being forced to sacrifice athletes.

02:03:04.000 So part of this system, the only way that it would work is you had to have lambs.

02:03:09.000 If nobody ever tested positive, right, well, it would look like there's something wrong with the system.

02:03:15.000 So they had to have positive tests.

02:03:18.000 And they would consistently have positive tests.

02:03:21.000 And the guys who would test positive, what they would do...

02:03:26.000 They were the guys who either were past champions that the ministry looked at and said, hey, you're not going to go and win another gold medal.

02:03:33.000 You're not who you are anymore.

02:03:35.000 Or it was an athlete who they believed could be a champion, never lived up to his potential.

02:03:42.000 And was on the state program.

02:03:44.000 So they would sacrifice athletes along the way to make it appear that the system was catching them.

02:03:51.000 And that was a whole conundrum for Gregory because he got to know a lot of these guys.

02:03:59.000 And these athletes would think that they were being protected because they thought that they were on the state program.

02:04:05.000 So they think that they're being protected and all of a sudden they're positive and they're banned.

02:04:10.000 Oh.

02:04:10.000 And they're going, wait, wait, you told me to take this and what do you mean I'm banned?

02:04:16.000 You told me I'd be negative.

02:04:18.000 Be like, you're positive.

02:04:21.000 Well, they were always positive.

02:04:23.000 So it was just a matter of who to sacrifice.

02:04:28.000 And whether or not they would swap the urine.

02:04:31.000 He had...

02:04:32.000 This we never get into the film, but this is mind-blowing to think.

02:04:37.000 So he had developed, right after the London Olympics, they figure out...

02:04:43.000 How to break into the bottles, right?

02:04:45.000 So they figure out how they can break into these bottles and swap the urine.

02:04:51.000 But he personally was never doing that.

02:04:53.000 What he would do is the FSB, these guys, would come in, they had this device, and like once a week, whenever they needed to do it, they'd come in and swap out all these B samples that they would keep in storage, you know, just for safekeeping, and the A sample was always swapped.

02:05:09.000 But the B sample, they would like, you know, there wasn't going to be a need to retest it right that moment.

02:05:15.000 So they'd keep it for a week or whatever, and then the guys would come in and they would swap out all the samples.

02:05:20.000 So part of this system was that he kept a urine database.

02:05:26.000 So he had 16,000 matching urine samples.

02:05:33.000 That he was holding in the laboratory that they should have all been disposed of after three months according to the code.

02:05:38.000 So any international athlete that would come into Russia to compete in the games, kids, gymnasts, anybody competing in Russia, and if they tested clean, Russia would hold their urine, put it down for the specific gravity, the steroid profile,

02:05:54.000 keep it in a database, You know, the urine's being kept frozen.

02:05:58.000 So they would always have samples to swap for any of the Russian athletes at any time, even if they didn't have a clean sample for that athlete.

02:06:07.000 So because most of the Russian athletes, they were on the program, in Sochi they took extraordinary precaution.

02:06:13.000 They collected clean urine of each of the athletes on the program.

02:06:18.000 But outside of that, what they were doing was just going, hey, We have 16,000 samples to choose from, so whatever is going to best match the Russian athlete to swap with, we can take the urine of another athlete, a clean athlete,

02:06:34.000 and make it look pretty much identical to that Russian athlete because they could choose from 16,000 samples.

02:06:41.000 Wow!

02:06:42.000 So they had it all indexed as far as the weight and...

02:06:45.000 All indexed.

02:06:45.000 Everything.

02:06:46.000 They have it like color profile and everything too?

02:06:48.000 It was crazy.

02:06:48.000 I got to see a spreadsheet and then on the eve of this investigation breaking...

02:06:55.000 And WADA is going to go raid this laboratory, and there's thousands of missing samples.

02:07:01.000 And in the report, this report, this 335-page report, I'm trying to remember, it was something like 1,400 samples are missing, or 1,400 samples were destroyed.

02:07:13.000 Well, the real number was...

02:07:16.000 8,200 something.

02:07:18.000 It was truly 8,000 samples matching in two bottles.

02:07:22.000 16,000 samples.

02:07:24.000 And they had to bring in these containers, industrial trash containers.

02:07:28.000 And in a dark of night operation, emptying out the lab and bringing all these bottles to like some industrial trash where they dumped them and crushed them and incinerated them.

02:07:38.000 Wow.

02:07:39.000 And so it was, I mean, this was a pretty nutty operation going on.

02:07:45.000 And they did this for the collegiate competition, so the World Junior Track Championships were in Russia.

02:07:52.000 They did it for that.

02:07:54.000 They did it for the swimming championships.

02:07:55.000 They did it for...

02:07:57.000 Everything.

02:07:57.000 So these were kids, too.

02:07:59.000 Any of the collegiate athletes.

02:08:02.000 It's amazing that all the athletes kept their mouth shut.

02:08:04.000 No athlete got a bad conscience and just like, I can't do this anymore.

02:08:09.000 I need to come clean.

02:08:10.000 Well, there's been athletes that have come forward.

02:08:13.000 I mean, there's been whistleblowers.

02:08:15.000 There's been multiple ones.

02:08:17.000 But I think...

02:08:18.000 You know, what you start seeing in that system, which is very hard, I think, for an American to understand.

02:08:26.000 And we talk very openly against our government, you know, what's going on in the current administration.

02:08:34.000 You know, people are very, you know, anti-Trump or pro-Trump or anti-Obama, whatever.

02:08:41.000 I mean, that's what...

02:08:42.000 As Americans, we do that, and we have that mentality.

02:08:47.000 Well, in China and in Russia and other countries like this that go through communism and everything, that mentality never goes away.

02:08:54.000 The mentality is always that the state can take everything from you.

02:08:58.000 They can put you in jail.

02:08:59.000 They can take your passport.

02:09:00.000 They can seize your assets.

02:09:02.000 They can launch fake news against you.

02:09:04.000 They can put you in jail, just like they did to Gregory, just like they're doing.

02:09:07.000 And so everybody, no matter how powerful, they all have that fear of the government in their mind.

02:09:13.000 And what you see, because I saw this firsthand in Russia, where I have some very wealthy, very powerful Russian friends, and they will never talk bad about the government.

02:09:28.000 We're good to go.

02:09:47.000 Or you're going to cross the paths of a wrong person.

02:09:50.000 And that's what we've seen in all these stories year after year after year out of Russia and certainly, you know, other countries or, you know, the mysterious death of Kim Jong Il's brother, etc.

02:10:04.000 Yeah.

02:10:04.000 I mean, they're operating under a system that's ancient.

02:10:08.000 I mean, this is the way people have been dictators for thousands of years.

02:10:13.000 But they're just doing it in the age of information.

02:10:16.000 They're doing it right under everyone's nose.

02:10:18.000 Fake news, fear.

02:10:19.000 Yeah.

02:10:20.000 They did a, this was interesting, about two weeks ago, Russia's trying to get reinstated for the Winter Olympics.

02:10:26.000 Well, not reinstated, they're trying to make sure that they can go to the Winter Olympics.

02:10:30.000 So they release a story through Sputnik News and RT, the Russian, you know, Times, Russia Today, and they release this story that McLaren, the investigator in the film behind all the Gregory's evidence, That McLaren is willing to forgive Russia, 0.54

02:10:46.000 that he believes that there's errors in his report, and that WADA believes that Russia should be reinstated and allowed to go to the Winter Olympics.

02:10:55.000 None of this is true.

02:10:56.000 And this is picked up by worldwide media.

02:10:59.000 It's picked up by papers all over the world.

02:11:02.000 And Russia just put this out there.

02:11:05.000 Basically to fuel the propaganda.

02:11:07.000 And then, you know, next day McLaren's out there, you know, going, that's not true.

02:11:11.000 But his press release was picked up by a handful of outlets where the Russia release, because of how they're able to disseminate news, went global.

02:11:23.000 I always watch a guide like that, and I wonder, like, you look at the Russian administration that's in right now, and you want, how long can they keep that going?

02:11:30.000 And you would look at it in terms of America, like Americans would revolt.

02:11:33.000 But like you were saying, in Russia, I mean, I remember the story about some Russian oligarch who...

02:11:40.000 Spoke ill of Putin, and I don't remember what the deal was that he was discussing, but they stripped him of all his money, took his company away, and put him in jail.

02:11:48.000 Oh, wasn't that, um, not Medevev, uh, I know who you're talking, what's his name?

02:11:53.000 He's very famous, very famous case.

02:11:56.000 Well, he was the richest man in Russia at the time.

02:11:58.000 They just took his entire fortune, locked him in a cell, kept him there for years, then eventually released him, which is an even bolder move.

02:12:06.000 They're like, look, we just dismantled you, and now we'll just let you go. 0.99

02:12:10.000 And you're not going to do shit. 0.99

02:12:12.000 Yeah, it's terrifying. 0.98

02:12:14.000 What do you think after seeing the film and what you're following?

02:12:20.000 That's him.

02:12:20.000 Rush's once richest man had his last 170 million.

02:12:23.000 Hid his last million.

02:12:25.000 Go back to the top of the title, Jamie.

02:12:29.000 How he hid his last 170 million.

02:12:34.000 So how do you say his name?

02:12:35.000 For the other $14.8 billion, it's only money.

02:12:40.000 Just freed after 10 years in jail, told journalists at a press conference in Berlin two days ago that he didn't know how much money he had left.

02:12:47.000 Leonid Bershidsky, a columnist for the Russian edition of Forbes, thinks he has an idea.

02:12:57.000 I don't know how to say his name.

02:13:01.000 Khodorkovsky.

02:13:02.000 Khodorkovsky.

02:13:03.000 Khodorkovsky.

02:13:04.000 Grew rich in Russia freewheeling in the 1990s by acquiring state oil assets.

02:13:09.000 At one point, he was ranked 15th in the Forbes billionaire list with a personal net worth of $15 billion.

02:13:16.000 Hmm.

02:13:17.000 So yeah, this is the guy.

02:13:18.000 They put him in jail for quite a long time, 10 years.

02:13:22.000 10 years in jail and just let him go.

02:13:24.000 Yeah, don't mess with Russia. 0.96

02:13:26.000 But even the letting him go thing, it's just amazing that they just decided to let him go. 0.99

02:13:30.000 Like, they put him in jail, took all his money, and then go, eh, get the fuck out of here. 0.96

02:13:34.000 Yeah, well, once he was no longer a threat. 0.91

02:13:36.000 Yeah, but it's just, and it's also a...

02:13:38.000 Learned his lesson.

02:13:39.000 It's a, let everybody know, like, this can happen to you.

02:13:42.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:13:43.000 And by freeing him, it also lets him know, like, do you see what happens?

02:13:47.000 You want to mess with us?

02:13:48.000 You're going to pay the price.

02:13:50.000 Stunning.

02:13:51.000 What do you make of what's going on in the U.S. right now with all the allegations after seeing the film?

02:13:59.000 Where's your head at?

02:14:00.000 Well, I didn't put the two of them together because when I was watching the film, essentially, I was just thinking about the anti-doping ramifications.

02:14:07.000 But, I mean, it's pretty obvious that if they're doing this, and there seems to be a lot of evidence that they've at least attempted.

02:14:18.000 I mean, there was some new thing recently about Facebook ads.

02:14:21.000 Yeah, Facebook, Twitter ads.

02:14:23.000 Yeah.

02:14:23.000 I mean, there's definitely something going on, but we're doing it too, you know?

02:14:28.000 We're doing it to them.

02:14:29.000 They're doing it to us.

02:14:30.000 It's essentially been a part of global politics forever.

02:14:32.000 I mean, we influence their elections and not just theirs.

02:14:35.000 We influence the elections of countless countries all over the world.

02:14:39.000 It's, uh, look, it's gross. 0.97

02:14:41.000 It's disgusting.

02:14:41.000 And the only thing that I can think is that with the information age that we're currently experiencing, I feel like we're in the adolescence of this, and that what seems to highlight This age is that the distance between people and information just keeps getting shorter and shorter and The ability to hide things hide devious acts and hide money and hide influence and hide manipulation seems to be it seems

02:15:12.000 to be able to People seem to be able to find out things quicker and quicker now.

02:15:17.000 Yeah, I was having a conversation about this the other day, where if it's, you know, I mean, look at the Instagram age and Facebook and everything.

02:15:25.000 Everybody seems to know everything about everyone, and that anything eventually comes out.

02:15:31.000 And I think, again, we're experiencing the adolescence of this.

02:15:35.000 I think there's going to come a point in time with, and I believe it's going to be through technological innovation, that we're going to be able to read each other's minds.

02:15:41.000 I think it's inevitable. 0.97

02:15:43.000 I think the idea of the internet, if you went to someone in the 1800s and told them one day you're going to be able to talk to your phone and ask your phone, you know, a bunch of different questions that will literally give you the answer, they would go, what the fuck is a phone? 0.95

02:15:55.000 Like, what are you talking about, man? 0.99

02:15:56.000 Like, are you crazy? 1.00

02:15:58.000 This guy's a crazy person. 1.00

02:15:59.000 You're talking about witchcraft. 1.00

02:16:00.000 No, no, no.

02:16:01.000 I'm talking about all the world being connected and you'll be able to share photos.

02:16:04.000 What's a photo?

02:16:05.000 Well, you'll be able to capture time with a small device in your pocket.

02:16:08.000 And video as well, with perfect sound.

02:16:10.000 And you'll be able to download hundreds of hours, hundreds of hours of music and put it on your phone.

02:16:17.000 You'll be able to listen to that.

02:16:18.000 They'll be like, recorded music? 1.00

02:16:21.000 The fuck are you talking about? 0.99

02:16:22.000 This is just a couple hundred years ago. 0.99

02:16:24.000 I mean, what are we going to experience a couple hundred years from now?

02:16:27.000 I think we're going to be able to read each other's minds.

02:16:29.000 I think the idea that the way we operate now, our operating system of language, the way we communicate with each other through mouth noises, And that we have a dictionary.

02:16:40.000 We understand what the noises are.

02:16:42.000 And you say some things, like the entire time you've been talking here, I've referred to my database of information.

02:16:49.000 I know exactly what he's saying.

02:16:51.000 And Brian means this, and he means...

02:16:53.000 And as you're talking, all the people that are listening are doing the exact same thing.

02:16:56.000 I think it is entirely possible that in the future we will swap that out for some sort of universal system, some sort of universal system that is neurologically connected, that we're going to have something that is either embedded into our minds, embedded into our brain itself,

02:17:12.000 embedded into our neurological system.

02:17:14.000 Well, that's Minority Report. 0.59

02:17:15.000 Yes.

02:17:16.000 I mean, it's just inevitable.

02:17:18.000 If technology keeps going, and we keep progressing, and there's no reason to think other than some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of a human-created disaster that it doesn't keep going the way it's going, we're going to get to some place where we can see each other's minds.

02:17:31.000 We're going to be able to read each other's thoughts, for good or bad.

02:17:35.000 And I tend to think both.

02:17:37.000 Both good and bad.

02:17:39.000 We're going to long for the good old days when you have some privacy.

02:17:41.000 We're going to long for the good old days when you can keep a secret.

02:17:43.000 No, I mean, because right now we're already in an era where almost anything is discoverable.

02:17:49.000 Anything, you know, nothing is private anymore.

02:17:53.000 And there's always something to come out and then there's some sort of electronic trail of it.

02:17:58.000 Right.

02:17:59.000 I mean, even in the, which you wouldn't know about the film, but the way that that evidence was truly corroborated was the electronic trail.

02:18:10.000 And here's the amazing thing, which people probably don't realize, is so, like Gregory, when he comes to the U.S., he had erased all of his phones, because he was under the ministry order to erase everything.

02:18:21.000 And what was happening is the athletes were snapping a photo of their doping control forms.

02:18:27.000 So that's how Gregory would know what number corresponded to what athlete.

02:18:31.000 I mean, this was very intricate how this was going down because nobody in the lab, you know, which, you know, if you're the scientist and you're getting Armstrong's sample, you don't know what's Armstrong's sample.

02:18:41.000 It's numbered.

02:18:41.000 It's got a seven, eight-digit number on it.

02:18:44.000 It's just a random number.

02:18:45.000 But so what the Russians were doing, they were snapping a photo of their doping control form, which only they could do. 0.71

02:18:51.000 Right?

02:18:51.000 And then they were sending this photo to an FSB agent who was also a coach.

02:18:58.000 And she would send the photo to Gregory and the KGB guy in the lab who was assisting him.

02:19:06.000 And so that they would know that that number, number 11744, corresponded to this athlete.

02:19:13.000 Right?

02:19:14.000 The point that I'm getting at is that...

02:19:17.000 So he was...

02:19:18.000 Erased all of that.

02:19:19.000 They told him to erase it all from his phone, all from his computers, everything.

02:19:23.000 And when he comes here, he brings his old computer and he brings his old phones because this guy, he just knows.

02:19:29.000 And when he turns over all the evidence to WADA and the US authorities and Interpol, what they're able to do is they're able to get all this erased information,

02:19:45.000 All this erase stuff that was on his phone and computer and retrieve it.

02:19:51.000 Wow.

02:19:52.000 And that's...

02:19:54.000 Like a massive portion of this evidence.

02:19:58.000 What they were also able to do is what we probably don't realize, and this goes into what you're saying, is like when you send an email, if you've got the metadata behind it, so like he was getting emails sent through the Russian ministry, so you're sitting there going, well, how do you know where this came from?

02:20:16.000 They can go back in the actual through the metadata that is being sent in a computer and show exactly from what computer where date time that email was sent and that's how they were able to corroborate all his evidence through Through basically forensics of,

02:20:35.000 you know, whatever that study is of electronic forensics.

02:20:39.000 When you talk about reading minds and that kind of stuff, I mean, half of that technology is already there.

02:20:45.000 I mean, any photo you take on your phone, even if you delete it, they can get it back and they can figure out exactly where you were, where it was sent, how it was sent, the spot that you sent it from, where it's nuts.

02:20:56.000 And it's going to get crazier.

02:20:57.000 It's just going to get crazier.

02:20:58.000 I mean, for sure, there's going to be some new technologies a couple years from now that's going to make it even easier to do than that.

02:21:05.000 And when you read about, you know, there's all these apps with encryption software and stuff, and I mean, I've given up the idea that you can be essentially invisible, or that if somebody wants to get your information,

02:21:20.000 they're going to get your information.

02:21:21.000 Right.

02:21:22.000 Yeah, unquestionably.

02:21:24.000 And, you know, another thing that's really interesting is that we're looking at photos and we're looking at video and email, and we're assuming that it's going to be in the future more access to photo, more access to email, more access to video.

02:21:36.000 But what is coming down the pipe?

02:21:38.000 I mean, what is the new thing?

02:21:41.000 I mean, there could be something that's even fucking crazier than video.

02:21:44.000 I mean, we're just assuming that it's going to stay video and it's going to stay photos?

02:21:49.000 Like, why?

02:21:50.000 Those things didn't even exist a couple hundred years ago.

02:21:52.000 Well, everything that's going now is going into this world of VR. Yes.

02:21:56.000 Where essentially, you know, the idea is that you can see things and you can create your own reality.

02:22:03.000 I mean, there's lots of discussion even in the world of sex that, you know, the sex of the future is why do you really need another human?

02:22:13.000 You can essentially simulate that and program it and make it everything you wanted and more and never know the difference.

02:22:21.000 Sure.

02:22:21.000 Well, I mean, whether it's through augmented reality, virtual reality, or robots.

02:22:26.000 I mean, we're just a few steps away from all this stuff.

02:22:29.000 And if it's not 10 years from now, it's 50. If it's not 50, it's 100. I mean, it's inevitable.

02:22:35.000 Human beings don't destroy ourselves.

02:22:38.000 We stay alive long enough.

02:22:39.000 We're going to see...

02:22:41.000 A complete dissolving of reality as we know it.

02:22:44.000 Which I think even goes into, like, the whole anti-doping world of it in sports where, you know, you actually just made me think about, like, Terminator.

02:22:54.000 Yeah.

02:22:54.000 Where you're sitting there going, well, wait, you think it's a real person and it's a Terminator, but you think of all the technologies that are going on right now and why...

02:23:05.000 Won't there be a chip in your brain that basically takes away pain so that you can, you know, persevere in an MMA fight that takes away your, you know, all these different technologies that are essentially controlling your synapses,

02:23:23.000 controlling your reflexes, it's all there.

02:23:27.000 How is that not going to happen?

02:23:29.000 And then obviously enhancing the human body itself.

02:23:32.000 I mean, there was a technology that we've been talking about recently where they were trying to combine spider silk with human skin tissue to make an artificial skin, a replacement skin that's bulletproof.

02:23:46.000 Wow.

02:23:47.000 That just blew my mind.

02:23:48.000 Yeah.

02:23:48.000 That just blew my mind.

02:23:50.000 Yeah, they're going to genetically engineer human skin, so it'll look like human skin, it'll have much of the same properties of human skin, but it'll be bulletproof.

02:23:58.000 And you'll wear it?

02:24:00.000 It'll be you.

02:24:01.000 It'll be you.

02:24:02.000 They'll replace your skin. 1.00

02:24:04.000 And then how do they stop?

02:24:06.000 I mean, the power of that bullet would still, like, really mess you up.

02:24:09.000 Well, sure, you could do some tissue trauma underneath the surface, but the actual skin itself won't break.

02:24:17.000 It'd be like having a bulletproof vest all over your body.

02:24:19.000 I mean, that's what Kevlar essentially is.

02:24:21.000 What Kevlar is, is a material that is so dense and so thick It's so impenetrable that when you shoot a regular bullet into it, the regular bullet hits it, does not go through it, and just spreads out and expands.

02:24:35.000 It's still very painful for the person who gets shot, but it protects your life.

02:24:39.000 And we could easily see that happen with entire bodies made out of that stuff.

02:24:43.000 I mean you got to believe it's probably already out there like in some secret lab they've already like developed the skin and sitting in like a Petri dish that's bulletproof skin.

02:24:54.000 Yeah, if I'm reading it on a science website for sure I'm not the first one to get the information.

02:24:58.000 I mean this is getting to the highest level.

02:25:00.000 I mean where is the real money, right?

02:25:02.000 It's the real question is and I don't know this answer is The top scientists in the world, the top innovators in the world, I mean, when do they scoop those people up?

02:25:11.000 When does the government come in with some black ops money and say, hey, we would like to hire you and give you X amount of money to create this, and this is what we know so far about that, and here we're going to take you to Groom Lake out in the middle of Nevada and show you some lab that you didn't even know existed.

02:25:28.000 Yeah, but you've got to believe that that's already way into going on, because there's nothing that we spend more money on Sure.

02:25:50.000 Is our weapons.

02:25:51.000 Yeah.

02:25:52.000 That's what we make and sell to the rest of the world.

02:25:55.000 Yeah, we sell them the stuff that's not as good as the stuff we're making right now.

02:25:57.000 Right.

02:25:58.000 Yeah.

02:25:58.000 We sell the world our weapons and that is what is employing like millions and millions of people in this country is basically our military and our defense and ultimately, you know, developing spider skin.

02:26:12.000 Yeah, I mean this and this is what we're seeing, right?

02:26:15.000 This is what we get to see and look at.

02:26:16.000 Who knows how many different programs are going on right now as we're speaking that we have no knowledge of whatsoever.

02:26:22.000 I mean when they released Stealth Bomber and a couple other of these like sort of experimental vehicles where they were putting together these things once they they actually released them when they actually put you know had press conferences and showed people they had been working on these things forever.

02:26:40.000 Who's under wraps for like 20 years and all of a sudden you see this thing you're like whoa.

02:26:44.000 Have you ever seen one in person?

02:26:45.000 A stealth?

02:26:46.000 Yeah.

02:26:47.000 No?

02:26:47.000 I was in Palmdale and that's near Edwards Air Force Base and we were filming Fear Factor out there and this is right after September 11th and so they were doing all these exercises and these things were flying over the desert.

02:26:58.000 It was like being in Star Wars. 0.99

02:27:00.000 I mean, once you see them in real life, you're like, holy shit, that's a fucking UFO. This black thing, not shaped like any plane you've ever seen before, flying across the sky. 0.99

02:27:11.000 And you just look at it and go, what the fuck is that thing? 0.97

02:27:15.000 Yeah, and that's like 20 years old now. 1.00

02:27:16.000 Yeah, old as shit. 0.99

02:27:17.000 So think about what's out there now. 1.00

02:27:19.000 Oh yeah, for sure.

02:27:20.000 Think about what's out there now. 0.94

02:27:21.000 I mean, they probably have some ridiculous stuff. 0.50

02:27:23.000 And then there's some theoretical ideas.

02:27:25.000 You know, there's some magnetic drives they're trying to put together.

02:27:28.000 I mean, there's a bunch of speculation about different types of weapons that they're trying to...

02:27:34.000 To anti-matter weapons, some things that are just going to be able to just completely annihilate anything they touch and whether or not they're going to go completely through the earth if you hit things.

02:27:43.000 I mean, who knows?

02:27:44.000 Who knows what's on the horizon? 0.99

02:27:46.000 I mean, they're just going to keep getting better and better at blowing shit up. 0.93

02:27:49.000 You know, I mean, the amount of power that we have in the nuclear arsenal today and the amount of power in the weapons in comparison to the weapons that we used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's insane. 0.96

02:28:03.000 It's not even close.

02:28:04.000 I mean, they're hundreds and hundreds of times more powerful now.

02:28:07.000 No, it's staggering to kind of understand what kind of destruction is possible.

02:28:12.000 Like, nothing, I don't think, on the level of what we're seeing in natural destruction of what nature can do alone, but...

02:28:18.000 Yeah, but it's also fascinating when you think about the implications that your film has sort of brought to light, is that a lot of this destruction, like when you were talking about the Ukraine, a lot of this destruction and a lot of this, the confidence that they have to go into these places and use these weapons is kind of dependent upon public opinion that's dependent upon sport. 0.96

02:28:40.000 Right, and dependent on basically kicking somebody else's ass without the weapons.

02:28:45.000 And then that allows you to almost like weaponize because you have the power of the country behind you. 0.97

02:28:51.000 You know, what was interesting is after Sochi and Putin's rating goes up to, you know, 95% or something like that, that everybody in Russia supported him going into Ukraine too.

02:29:08.000 It was...

02:29:09.000 This was a good idea.

02:29:11.000 We're strong.

02:29:12.000 We're powerful.

02:29:13.000 Let's go in and take back a part of territory that we lost.

02:29:18.000 Let's go do it.

02:29:19.000 And you see that that sort of nationalistic pride is real.

02:29:25.000 I mean, I grew up in Colorado, which is Denver Bronco territory.

02:29:33.000 And, I mean, people would paint and they still do.

02:29:36.000 I mean, you know, around football, you're driving around the city, you see thousands of houses painted in orange and blue.

02:29:42.000 People are in orange and blue.

02:29:43.000 I mean, it's literally, it's a religion.

02:29:45.000 It's a cult.

02:29:46.000 It is an ethos.

02:29:49.000 And it's something to even fight about.

02:29:52.000 Yeah.

02:29:52.000 I mean, you talk bad about the Broncos.

02:29:56.000 I mean, that's a point of fight.

02:29:59.000 And I remember a few years ago when the Broncos won the Super Bowl, and you're looking at the statistic was something like 85% of the city of Denver showed up for a parade on a Monday.

02:30:12.000 Right.

02:30:13.000 That's incredible.

02:30:14.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:30:15.000 This is crazy!

02:30:17.000 And this is what people...

02:30:19.000 So if you don't believe that the governor of Colorado that day could have been like, hey, we're going to go seize Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, and Utah.

02:30:32.000 Everybody in the state of Colorado would have been like...

02:30:35.000 Hell yeah! 0.95

02:30:36.000 Go Broncos!

02:30:37.000 Almost, right?

02:30:39.000 Yeah, and that is what this is.

02:30:43.000 Masking behind a playing field.

02:30:47.000 People care about this because you're basically beating somebody else without weapons.

02:30:54.000 You're manipulating their opinions.

02:30:56.000 You're manipulating the way people feel and public opinion.

02:31:00.000 What do you think should be done?

02:31:02.000 That's what I was saying before.

02:31:03.000 If you put all the pieces on the table, I don't...

02:31:05.000 I feel like we're at a...

02:31:07.000 I don't think you can stop technology, right?

02:31:10.000 I just don't think...

02:31:12.000 I think it's what we do.

02:31:13.000 I mean, I think if you looked at human beings as a whole...

02:31:17.000 And you look at what we used to be versus what we are now.

02:31:21.000 If you were some sort of an objective life form from another planet that didn't have any vested interest in, you know, understanding our culture and just tried to examine us as a super organism...

02:31:33.000 What do we do? 1.00

02:31:34.000 We make better shit every year. 1.00

02:31:36.000 That's what we do. 1.00

02:31:37.000 We're always gonna make better shit. 1.00

02:31:38.000 We're always gonna make better shit. 0.99

02:31:39.000 As long as we stay alive, as long as we don't get hit by an asteroid, killed by a hurricane, swamped in an earthquake or tsunami, we're gonna continue to make better shit. 0.99

02:31:47.000 We're gonna continue to become better humans, technically. 0.99

02:31:50.000 Technically.

02:31:50.000 Technically, not maybe from a...

02:31:52.000 I think even from a moral standpoint, I think we're better now than we were before, which is why things like Putin are so disturbing, which is what, you know, if you go back to like the Genghis Khan era, it was the norm, right?

02:32:02.000 That was how dictators ran, that's how kings ran and emperors ran their dynasties.

02:32:08.000 It's more uncommon now and more disturbing because the main superpower doesn't do it that way, the United States of America. 0.99

02:32:14.000 That's one of the reasons why people are so patriotic about America, because when you look back at human history, we are as fucked up as we are and undeniably fucked up as it is. 0.95

02:32:25.000 We are the shining example of what's possible in the future. 0.95

02:32:29.000 That you can keep going and eventually create some sort of a system that's different, some sort of a experiment in self-government that's different than has ever existed before.

02:32:40.000 Where you can get to a point where a fucking reality show president, or a reality show Host becomes the president of the United States of America for good or for bad It opens people's eyes to the possibility like wow like this This is a new thing like this in terms of human history.

02:32:56.000 This is a new thing this whole Experiment this whole thing called the United States. 0.99

02:33:00.000 It's only a few hundred years old is a very new thing If you looked at us objectively, if you were something from another planet, you would say, well, what's the endgame with these fuckers? 0.99

02:33:10.000 What are they trying to do? 0.98

02:33:11.000 Well, what they're trying to do is make better and better stuff.

02:33:13.000 And I think the real issue with that is artificial intelligence.

02:33:17.000 Because we look at artificial intelligence, we say the word artificial intelligence, and we think of it as like a thing that we can turn on or turn off. 0.98

02:33:26.000 We think of it as a device, a VCR or a fucking television. 0.58

02:33:31.000 We think of it as a piece of equipment that a human has created that may be able to think for itself. 0.99

02:33:36.000 I think it's a life form.

02:33:38.000 I think it's just a life form that exists from parts and pieces that we're designed to put together.

02:33:46.000 I think our entire thing about being attached to materialism, our constant thirst for innovation, we always want the iPhone 8 is out, but iPhone iPhone X's around the corner.

02:33:56.000 Do you hold out or do you get the new one now?

02:33:58.000 You have two options.

02:33:59.000 No one's going to stick with the iPhone 7. Fuck that, man. 1.00

02:34:02.000 You know, well, you're going to get the update. 1.00

02:34:03.000 The update's going to make it slower.

02:34:04.000 You know that happens, right? 0.90

02:34:05.000 I mean, we're thirsty for this shit, but what we're fueling is innovation, and innovation will inevitably lead to a new life form. 0.99

02:34:13.000 It's going to lead, call it artificial, call it whatever you want. 1.00

02:34:16.000 It's fucking real. 0.98

02:34:17.000 It's not artificial. 0.98

02:34:18.000 It's just a life form that's not based on blood and bones.

02:34:21.000 It's a life form that's based on circuits.

02:34:23.000 A life form that's based on something that human beings have created.

02:34:26.000 And once it's sentient, once it can think for itself, it's going to make better life forms.

02:34:30.000 It's going to make something way, way different than us.

02:34:33.000 It's going to make something that doesn't have any emotions.

02:34:35.000 It's going to make something that doesn't have any biological needs.

02:34:38.000 It doesn't have any weird jealousy or weird issues that have been holding us back forever.

02:34:42.000 What do you do with that?

02:34:43.000 Exactly.

02:34:44.000 What is its motivation?

02:34:46.000 Why does it even exist?

02:34:47.000 Why does it even want to do anything?

02:34:49.000 There's a lot of questions involved in this.

02:34:51.000 And, you know, maybe it can find some sort of motivation.

02:34:54.000 Maybe it can figure out some reason to exist and to innovate and to keep going better and better.

02:34:58.000 But we're limited.

02:35:00.000 We're limited by the scope of our evolution.

02:35:03.000 You look and you're talking about human beings having been...

02:35:06.000 No, that's what I was getting into with Juan Enriquez, which is, you know, where his argument, and I actually interviewed him for the film and ended up not using it because of where the story went, but his argument was not the moral, ethical argument around anti-doping in sport.

02:35:23.000 It wasn't anything.

02:35:24.000 It was just purely the argument of, hey, look at evolution, look at reality, look at where we're going, look at where...

02:35:33.000 Human beings are essentially transcending to, and then how do you ever have the basis of what is the concept behind clean sport, or even transcending sport,

02:35:49.000 whatever you want to call it, is being a pure ethos, because there are so many Technological and really evolutionary variables that seem to make that fundamentally difficult.

02:36:03.000 And we're resisting the future.

02:36:05.000 I mean, it's almost like resisting performance-enhancing drugs is futile in the first place. 0.90

02:36:11.000 It's like foolish, because these performance-enhancing drugs represent technology.

02:36:15.000 They represent our ability to manipulate our biology. 0.98

02:36:17.000 To recover.

02:36:18.000 Yeah, and manipulate our biology to not just recover, but also to grow at a rate that we've never been able to grow before.

02:36:25.000 It's not just recover.

02:36:26.000 If it was just about recovery, some steroids allow you to grow at a rate.

02:36:31.000 Look at bodybuilders.

02:36:32.000 Look at freaks like Lee Haney when he was in his prime.

02:36:36.000 That's not just about recovery.

02:36:38.000 That's also about growth.

02:36:40.000 It's also about, I mean, the speed that Ben Johnson had when he won the gold medal, you know, when he tested positive. 0.99

02:36:45.000 But it turns out that Carl Lewis was on some shit, too, and they hid that. 0.89

02:36:49.000 Yeah, Catelyn in 1984, there were nine samples that went missing to this day. 0.99

02:36:55.000 Yes.

02:36:56.000 And the story behind that is that the USOC came to Don Catlin because Catlin had found the positives and basically those nine samples just vanished.

02:37:10.000 And you remember when Ben Johnson tried to compete clean after that?

02:37:13.000 It was hilarious.

02:37:15.000 Yeah, forget it.

02:37:15.000 It's like you're looking at a regular guy trying to race against superstars.

02:37:19.000 Forget it.

02:37:19.000 It's like if I was running.

02:37:21.000 Here's an interesting story, slightly off topic, but on the topic of Ben Johnson.

02:37:27.000 Dick Pound, Richard Pound.

02:37:29.000 What a great name, by the way.

02:37:30.000 Yeah, Dick Pound.

02:37:31.000 I mean, how do you ever...

02:37:32.000 You cannot mess with a guy by the name of Dick Pound. 0.99

02:37:35.000 Well, why the fuck did he ever go with Dick when his name was Richard? 0.98

02:37:38.000 Richard Pound is okay. 0.99

02:37:39.000 Because I think he just went to it and just been like...

02:37:42.000 Yeah, hey, I'm Dick Pound.

02:37:44.000 Maybe it was back in the day like Dick Nixon.

02:37:48.000 How do you resist that?

02:37:49.000 I mean, just go through your life.

02:37:50.000 I mean, you introduce yourself to a girl like, hey, what's your name?

02:37:54.000 Dick Pound. 0.98

02:37:55.000 But did they call it a dick back in the 70s and the 60s? 0.98

02:37:58.000 I think, yeah. 0.99

02:37:58.000 I mean, Richard Nixon, wasn't he Dick? 0.99

02:38:00.000 No, I guess all of his friends called him Dick Nixon or something.

02:38:03.000 Yeah, but that's not my point. 1.00

02:38:04.000 My point is, was a penis called a dick? 1.00

02:38:06.000 Oh. 1.00

02:38:07.000 I don't know when a penis became a dick. 1.00

02:38:10.000 Yeah, exactly. 1.00

02:38:11.000 I wonder if Dick Pound adopted the name prior to penises being a dick, or when he started calling himself Dick Pound, he knew that it was a dick, or if he adopted it post-dick hair, 0.99

02:38:26.000 or at what point he basically said, yeah, I'm going to be Dick Pound. 0.99

02:38:30.000 Well, Richard to Dick is always a weird one, too.

02:38:32.000 It's not as weird as John to Jack.

02:38:35.000 John to Jack is the weirdest one. 0.99

02:38:37.000 How the fuck do you get that? 0.99

02:38:39.000 Richard should be rich. 0.99

02:38:40.000 Yes.

02:38:40.000 Rich.

02:38:41.000 Rich.

02:38:41.000 How do you go from Richard to Dick?

02:38:45.000 How do you go from John to Jack?

02:38:48.000 Jack Kennedy is John F. Kennedy.

02:38:50.000 That makes no sense.

02:38:51.000 It doesn't make sense at all.

02:38:53.000 What about Jack Johnson?

02:38:54.000 Is he John Johnson?

02:38:56.000 I think he was Jack.

02:38:57.000 I think his name was actually Jack.

02:38:58.000 You can have a name Jack Johnson.

02:39:01.000 I'm not wearing it right now.

02:39:02.000 I was wearing it earlier today.

02:39:03.000 I was wearing a Jack Johnson t-shirt this morning.

02:39:04.000 It was funny.

02:39:05.000 When you said that, I thought I still had it on.

02:39:07.000 So this guy, Dick Pound, Richard Pound, who actually...

02:39:14.000 Founded WADA. At the time, he's basically within the IOC. And you talk about a crazy conflict of interest here.

02:39:21.000 So Richard Pound was an athlete, a swimmer, an Olympic swimmer, actually.

02:39:25.000 And then he got into being in the IOC, and he's a lawyer.

02:39:30.000 And his law firm has been representing the Olympics for the last, I don't even know how many years, 30 years in all of their sale of the Olympics to the entire world is Richard Pound's law firm,

02:39:46.000 Strykman Pound.

02:39:47.000 And Richard Pound's also the vice president of the IOC. And Richard Pound establishes WADA. He's the first head of WADA in 1999. Now, an interesting story is he's Canadian and he is essentially like the ambassador to Canada during the time that Ben Johnson tests positive.

02:40:12.000 And so Ben Johnson tests positive and And Canada sends Richard Pound in there to basically see if they can do something to make this go away.

02:40:22.000 Is this true?

02:40:24.000 Is there some way that basically Ben Johnson cannot be positive?

02:40:30.000 And Dick Pound, as he will tell you, was there essentially trying to negotiate, find a loophole on behalf of Canada that Ben Johnson would not be positive, but that apparently he was just so radically positive and there was just nothing that anybody could do about it.

02:40:51.000 It was just like, you know, hey, we'd really like to help you, but this is really, really bad.

02:40:57.000 There's like a lot of drugs.

02:40:59.000 I remember an article that described the whites of his eyes being yellow because his liver was overwhelmed trying to process the amount of steroids over his body.

02:41:10.000 I mean, he argues that the coaches, you know, that he had no idea.

02:41:13.000 Oh, yeah.

02:41:14.000 No idea.

02:41:14.000 They just kept telling him, you know, it's fine, you're fine, don't worry about it, you're fine, you're fine.

02:41:20.000 Might be true.

02:41:21.000 I mean, I wonder what they really did think was going to happen, or how they thought they would pull it off.

02:41:25.000 Well, I mean, it was these kind of scandals that forced the IOC to create WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, because they looked at a brand in crisis, and how were they going to regain...

02:41:37.000 And what year was this?

02:41:39.000 This was, well, WADA gets established in 1999. If I remember, Ben Johnson was, that was the, wasn't that the 84 Olympics?

02:41:48.000 It might have been the first Olympics where they tested.

02:41:50.000 Yeah, that was the 84 Olympics where Ben Johnson was tested positive.

02:41:55.000 So maybe they just didn't understand the scope?

02:41:57.000 But according to everybody that I've talked to, the entire American team was positive too.

02:42:05.000 He was just so positive.

02:42:06.000 They're like, hey man, you went too far.

02:42:08.000 They're like, you just pushed him way too far.

02:42:11.000 Well, he looked like a freak, too. 0.94

02:42:13.000 He was so jacked. 0.98

02:42:14.000 He's so big.

02:42:15.000 He looks so different.

02:42:15.000 Watch that stuff.

02:42:16.000 I mean, I think we have some footage of him in the film at the end.

02:42:20.000 I mean, he is a machine.

02:42:23.000 Yeah, he looks so different than the other track and field sprinter.

02:42:26.000 He's just a machine.

02:42:27.000 Yeah, he looked like an MMA fighter. 0.99

02:42:29.000 I mean, he was just fucking jacked. 0.99

02:42:31.000 Look at him! 1.00

02:42:31.000 He's jacked! 1.00

02:42:32.000 Look at that guy.

02:42:33.000 Look at Carl Lewis. 1.00

02:42:34.000 It's like, shit, I need a better doctor. 1.00

02:42:37.000 I mean, he was jacked. 1.00

02:42:39.000 I mean, look at his shoulder there. 0.50

02:42:41.000 Everything.

02:42:42.000 Yeah.

02:42:42.000 Shredded.

02:42:43.000 Yeah.

02:42:44.000 I mean...

02:42:45.000 Look at Carl Lewis.

02:42:46.000 Yeah.

02:42:46.000 And then look at Johnson.

02:42:48.000 And Carl Lewis was on some shit, too. 1.00

02:42:50.000 That's what's really crazy. 1.00

02:42:51.000 It's like... 1.00

02:42:52.000 All these guys were on some shit. 1.00

02:42:53.000 I mean, we have this idea, like, look at his eyes. 1.00

02:42:57.000 He's got, like, hyena eyes.

02:42:59.000 He looks like a werewolf or something.

02:43:01.000 Like, my god.

02:43:03.000 I mean, we have this idea that you'd be able to tell looking at someone whether or not they're on steroids.

02:43:07.000 That was always the idea, like, the sniff test.

02:43:09.000 Well, Gregory, the funny thing is, I was working with him over his time, he'd run into guys and he'd be like, He's on HGH. He's on HGH. He took too much HGH. Oh, definitely.

02:43:21.000 I mean, he could, Gregory could just look at somebody and know whether or not they were, like, toping.

02:43:27.000 And there were a time, you know, because I was on this program for a year and he looks at me, he's like, Brian, you're taking too much HGH. Really?

02:43:33.000 So he could tell looking?

02:43:34.000 Could you tell?

02:43:35.000 No.

02:43:35.000 He was like looking at me and he's like, you know, seeing like your jaw, it's getting a little bigger, your forehead.

02:43:41.000 He's like, you need to cut down the dose.

02:43:44.000 The voice is perfect.

02:43:46.000 I mean, he would, it was just, you know, he could just look at somebody and know.

02:43:52.000 Like he just, he just, anybody he knew and we would meet people over that year, um, There's a funny story when I was in Moscow, when I go to meet him after this Haute Root race, and I bring with me,

02:44:08.000 which again, we don't get into in the film, it's pretty crazy, I'd figured out, essentially because I wasn't going to be tested every day, that I was going to simulate the protocol, so during this second race...

02:44:19.000 I'm peeing every single night into Ziploc bags and basically sealing the Ziploc bag and storing this frozen urine in like a little thermos.

02:44:29.000 And the idea is I'm going to bring all my frozen urine with me to Moscow.

02:44:33.000 And I had all these blood tests done too before or after to build the biological passport and the steroid profile.

02:44:42.000 So I bring him all my frozen urine to Moscow, and he had went into the process of literally testing this urine that I had brought him in Ziploc bags that I had smuggled with me into Russia.

02:45:00.000 And the second part of the investigation comes out before he's able to covertly test all of my urine within his lab, which he shouldn't have been doing.

02:45:10.000 But I go to this birthday party, and in the film, I shot it on my iPhone, that scene of chaos with the birthday party.

02:45:20.000 And he's there, and he's singing, and he's introducing me, and he's doing karaoke, and he's dancing.

02:45:26.000 So that party was for a Russian gold medal shot putter.

02:45:32.000 And everybody at that party were like former gold medal shot putters, wrestling, decathlon.

02:45:40.000 And these were human giants.

02:45:42.000 And Gregory was like, yes, I doped him.

02:45:45.000 I doped him.

02:45:46.000 I doped him.

02:45:46.000 He was on this.

02:45:47.000 He was on this.

02:45:48.000 He was on this.

02:45:49.000 I mean, it was every single person at this party was like, I can't remember the names.

02:45:54.000 This is whatever.

02:45:54.000 This is Maria.

02:45:56.000 She won three Olympic gold medals.

02:45:58.000 She was on this.

02:46:02.000 Yes, and we threw out their positive.

02:46:04.000 Oh, wow.

02:46:05.000 It was like, it was every single, and we were at this party, and there was like 30 of them, and I have these pictures of me with, like, giants.

02:46:13.000 I mean, literally, like, just the biggest human beings you've ever seen in your life.

02:46:17.000 And Gregory's like, yes, yes, I helped him, I helped him, I helped him, I helped him.

02:46:24.000 Wow.

02:46:25.000 And they were all now part of the sports ministry.

02:46:27.000 Wow.

02:46:30.000 Yeah.

02:46:30.000 Wow.

02:46:31.000 Listen, man, let's wrap this up.

02:46:34.000 Your documentary is fantastic.

02:46:35.000 I really enjoyed it.

02:46:37.000 And I really do think it's probably the most powerful anti-doping documentary ever made. 0.97

02:46:41.000 I think you fucking nailed it. 0.95

02:46:43.000 It's really amazing. 0.97

02:46:44.000 And I really appreciate you coming on here.

02:46:46.000 And I want everybody to see it.

02:46:47.000 If you're interested in this stuff, it's on Netflix, Icarus.

02:46:51.000 Go check it out.

02:46:51.000 It is really, really good.

02:46:53.000 Thank you, Brian.

02:46:54.000 Really appreciate it, man.

02:46:55.000 Thanks, Joe.

02:46:56.000 I'd say to your listeners, anybody that wants to throw a bone to Gregory, he's got a GoFundMe page, and he could really, really use that help.

02:47:05.000 And that GoFundMe page is on your Twitter page?

02:47:08.000 It's on my Twitter feed right now.

02:47:09.000 Is it pinned?

02:47:10.000 I posted a tweet today with a link to his GoFundMe, and if you go on GoFundMe and search for Gregory Rodchenkov, you'll find it too, but it's right there on my Twitter, at Brian Fogle, and...

02:47:26.000 Yeah, he's in some dire straits.

02:47:28.000 And really, it's a story that hasn't...

02:47:32.000 It's still unfolding.

02:47:33.000 It is still unfolding.

02:47:34.000 It's history.

02:47:35.000 We captured history.

02:47:37.000 And the history involving the history is still unfolding in the news on a daily basis.

02:47:43.000 It is.

02:47:44.000 But, again, you nailed it.

02:47:47.000 Really amazing work.

02:47:48.000 Thanks for having me on.

02:47:49.000 My pleasure.

02:47:50.000 All right, folks.

02:47:50.000 We'll see you tomorrow.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 04, 2017

Joe Rogan Experience #1019 - Bryan Fogel

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