The Joe Rogan Experience - April 24, 2018


Joe Rogan Experience #1108 - Peter Attia

Topics
Catalina Swim swimming in saltwater swimming encounter with shark shark deterrent bands Catalina Island shark fishing coyote problem Jocko Podcast Success sniping pulling trigger control bow hunting time-restricted feeding benefits carbohydrates fit but fat fuel partitioning caloric restriction lifespan mate de cocoa orange juice and liver health rapamycin metabolism and immune function autophagy signature legs recovery endurance hex bar deadlifts and cycling experiment elite marathon runners lactate tolerance Tour de France vitamin D levels IGF and growth hormone mortality curves testosterone replacement longevity improvements fat metabolism hormones time-restricted feeding
Hosted by
Joe Rogan
Guests
Peter Attia
Mentioned
Jocko Ryan Flaherty Peter Atiyah Fat Chris Kyle Jamie Lance Armstrong Matt Caberlin Michael Phelps Penny Dean William Stuart Halstead Johnny Manziel Jesus Christ Kirk Parsley Dean Lister Tim Kennedy Schedule II Barry Bonds John Dudley Bjorn Reis Everolimus and 41 more
Joe Rogan Experience #1106 - Colion Noir Joe Rogan Experience #1109 - Matthew Walker

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 51 minutes

Words per minute

184.02

Word count

31,557

Sentence count

2,879

Harmful content

Misogyny

33

sentences flagged

Toxicity

335

sentences flagged

Hate speech

19

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, I chat with Dr. Peter Wojciechowski about his swim from Maui to Lanai and back, and why he thinks women are better at swimming than men at it. We also talk about his new book, "Swim Like A Girl: How to Swim Like a Woman in the 21st Century" and why women should be able to swim faster than men in order to break the world record for the longest distance a woman has ever swum in a single day. And, of course, we talk a lot about Bigfoot. If you don t know who Bigfoot is, then you re in for a treat! Thanks to Peter for coming on the show, and for being willing to share his story with us. I hope you enjoy this episode and that it makes you think about how amazing it is to be a swimmer, and that you re not alone in your ability to swim like a man. You can find out more about your ad choices at anchor.fm/TheSwimSwimLife and use the hashtag on the socials and if you like what you hear about this podcast, tag . and we ll send you a review! in the comments section below! Timestamps: 1:00 - What is Bigfoot? 2:30 - Why women can swim better than men? 3:20 - What makes a woman better than a man? 4:40 - How can swim faster? 5: Why women are a better at it? 6: what makes a man better at a woman at swimming? 7: What makes women better at that other people? 8: What are you better at something? 9:00 10:20 11:40 What is a woman s job? 12:30 13:30 | What are the benefits of being a woman? 15:00 | What does a man s job better than another woman s role? 16:00 // 15:40 | What do you need to do to swim better? 17:50 18:00 / 16: What s a good swimmer? 19:10 21:50 | What is the difference between a woman can do better than someone else? 22:50 / 15:30 / 20:00 +16:00 Is there a better swimmer s job description?

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Joe Rogan Experience" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:02.000 Four, three, two, one.
00:00:05.000 Hello, Peter.
00:00:06.000 Hello, Joe.
00:00:07.000 What's going on, man?
00:00:09.000 A whole lot. 0.99
00:00:10.000 You were just telling me something that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. 0.92
00:00:13.000 That you swam from Maui to Lanai. 0.95
00:00:18.000 Right.
00:00:18.000 And you're the only humans to ever do that.
00:00:21.000 I'm told I was the first person to swim from Maui to Lanai and back.
00:00:25.000 The one way is a pretty famous swim race that's done every year.
00:00:29.000 You're the first person to do it and go back. 1.00
00:00:32.000 Fuck, dude. 1.00
00:00:33.000 Why'd you do that? 1.00
00:00:35.000 How long you got?
00:00:37.000 It started when I was a boy.
00:00:39.000 They told me I couldn't do it.
00:00:42.000 What made you want to do that? 0.99
00:00:44.000 It's a ridiculous proposition. 0.96
00:00:46.000 So I got into... 0.84
00:00:48.000 I decided in...
00:00:49.000 This is going to sound silly.
00:00:51.000 I read a book in January of 2004 about this woman named Penny Dean who still to this day holds the record for the fastest crossing of the Catalina Channel. 0.86
00:01:01.000 So swimming from Catalina Island to San Pedro or to...
00:01:05.000 You typically swim to Point Vicente.
00:01:09.000 And she had done it in like...
00:01:10.000 Seven hours and 20 minutes.
00:01:12.000 And I was like, that's amazing.
00:01:14.000 How far is that?
00:01:15.000 As a crow flies, it's 21 miles.
00:01:18.000 With the currents, it's a little longer.
00:01:20.000 And I was like, you know, I really want to do this, but I got to learn how to swim first.
00:01:25.000 So that's three miles an hour swimming?
00:01:28.000 She is a phenom.
00:01:31.000 Penny Dean had a stroke rate of 90 strokes per minute, which, I mean, that might not mean anything to someone who doesn't swim, but, like, to have a hand hit the water every, you know, two-thirds of a second is a remarkable cadence.
00:01:45.000 Yeah, I can't hold a cadence of that for 100 yards.
00:01:49.000 Wow.
00:01:49.000 And she did it for 20 miles?
00:01:51.000 Yeah.
00:01:52.000 What a beast!
00:01:53.000 She's out of control. 0.98
00:01:55.000 Yeah.
00:01:56.000 There's certain people like that, man, that freak me out.
00:01:59.000 I think marathon swimming might be one sport where, if you just look at the numbers, I think women are better than men.
00:02:06.000 Well, there's that woman who swam from Cuba to the United States, right?
00:02:09.000 She was the first person to ever do that.
00:02:11.000 And didn't she do it at a fairly advanced age?
00:02:14.000 Yeah.
00:02:14.000 I mean, she's, of course, got an amazing pedigree of swimming, and this wasn't her first rodeo.
00:02:18.000 Right, right, right.
00:02:19.000 Why do you think women are better than men at that? 0.90
00:02:22.000 I mean...
00:02:24.000 I'm not a member of this community anymore, but when I was, it was one of our favorite topics of discussion.
00:02:30.000 I think opportunities or ideas that were put forth were higher pain tolerance, something about evolving to be able to give birth.
00:02:40.000 It just means they can tolerate pain a lot higher.
00:02:44.000 I think another thing I've heard is buoyancy.
00:02:46.000 You know, women are naturally going to have more body fat, which provides insulation. 1.00
00:02:50.000 When you do these swims, you're not allowed any wetsuits or aids of any sort.
00:02:54.000 Your shorts.
00:02:55.000 You're in a Speedo and a single latex cap and that's it.
00:02:59.000 And so I think women's hips, because they're going to have more fat on their hips, it corrects one of the big buoyancy issues that we have in swimming. 1.00
00:03:10.000 We didn't evolve to swim.
00:03:12.000 We're horrible at it naturally.
00:03:14.000 Because we swim like this.
00:03:16.000 We drag our hips through the water.
00:03:18.000 And if you think about the importance of aerodynamics in most of the things that we think about, whether it be archery or race car driving or cycling, in water it's that much more important because the density of water is thousands of times greater than air.
00:03:33.000 So swimming is just 100% about avoiding drag.
00:03:37.000 Wow.
00:03:37.000 Well, that totally makes sense.
00:03:40.000 I just have been fascinated forever with people that are capable of pushing their brain to do things that other people just don't think are possible, like a Bigfoot 200 race or any of those things.
00:03:54.000 But the swim one is particularly crazy because you can't stop.
00:03:59.000 If you're running an ultramarathon and you just want to sit down for a couple minutes and just take a break, you can do that.
00:04:05.000 But if you're swimming, There's not a damn thing you can do.
00:04:09.000 You could tread water is about as good as it gets.
00:04:11.000 But you can't touch the boat or the kayak or it's an immediate disqualification.
00:04:15.000 Oh God!
00:04:19.000 That's so crazy, man.
00:04:21.000 That is such a...
00:04:23.000 Wow.
00:04:23.000 So you heard about this woman doing it, and that's what...
00:04:26.000 I read this book, and I was like, I really want to do this.
00:04:28.000 At the time, I was actually in my residency in Baltimore, and I was like, you know, I really want to do this, and I'm going to have to learn how to swim to do it.
00:04:36.000 So I started taking swimming lessons, and then...
00:04:40.000 I mean, to make a very long story short, basically by about the summer of 2005, I entered my first swim race, which was a two-mile swim race in Lake Reston, Virginia.
00:04:50.000 And I did it.
00:04:52.000 I was like, oh my god, I just swam two miles in the open water.
00:04:56.000 You know, it was hard, but I was like, okay, that's the proof of concept.
00:04:59.000 Now you just got to figure out how to make it 20, 25 miles.
00:05:02.000 And so I just, you know, went completely psycho and ratcheted up the training.
00:05:12.000 And then in October of 2005, I did my first Catalina swim.
00:05:16.000 Wow.
00:05:17.000 That's got to be a pretty good feeling, though, when you're done.
00:05:21.000 That you are capable of pushing yourself to what most people think is an impossible distance.
00:05:28.000 Yeah.
00:05:28.000 I mean, people, you asked a moment ago, why do you do this?
00:05:31.000 I would say that in life, velocity means very little.
00:05:35.000 Acceleration means everything.
00:05:37.000 So what do I mean by that, right?
00:05:39.000 Like, if you're going 650 miles an hour in an airplane, you don't actually feel it.
00:05:44.000 You only feel when speed changes.
00:05:47.000 Right.
00:05:47.000 So I've always had this theory that emotionally that's also true.
00:05:52.000 Like happiness is only interesting when it's juxtaposed with sadness.
00:05:57.000 And so the feeling of crawling on the shore after you've been swimming for 12 to 14 hours is amazing.
00:06:04.000 But what makes it especially amazing is that six hours earlier, you thought you were going to die.
00:06:11.000 So you start these swims in the middle of the night to avoid the shipping traffic.
00:06:15.000 So that first swim, boat drops you off at Catalina Island.
00:06:19.000 It's midnight.
00:06:21.000 That's a darkness you can't imagine.
00:06:23.000 Like, you can't even see LA from Catalina.
00:06:25.000 You have to swim for six hours before you even see the lights of Los Angeles.
00:06:29.000 Really?
00:06:30.000 Yeah.
00:06:31.000 What do you see?
00:06:32.000 The stars and the phospho, like, bioluminescent organisms in the water.
00:06:37.000 Whoa! 0.71
00:06:38.000 Which is incredible.
00:06:40.000 I mean, that's worth the price of admission.
00:06:41.000 So every time your hand comes through the water, you're pulling and ripping these little things and you're seeing the sparks.
00:06:48.000 And you can't tell where the water ends and the sky starts.
00:06:52.000 In other words, the stars and the bioluminescence looks like one cylinder.
00:06:57.000 Wow.
00:06:58.000 So for the first few hours, that's cool.
00:07:00.000 But then, you know, on my first swim, the water was incredibly rough.
00:07:05.000 I had only swum in the ocean for two weeks before the swim.
00:07:08.000 I did all my training in a swimming pool and a lake on the East Coast.
00:07:13.000 So now I wasn't used to how to keep the salt water out of my mouth.
00:07:17.000 Right.
00:07:17.000 So then I was like puking my guts out.
00:07:21.000 While you were swimming, you're puking you guys out?
00:07:23.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:07:24.000 How does that work?
00:07:25.000 You just stop and puke and then keep swimming.
00:07:28.000 Wow.
00:07:30.000 But then my tongue started to get really swollen from the salt water.
00:07:34.000 Because again, as I would learn later on, I would go on to do many more of these swims, but what I learned is the importance of...
00:07:40.000 Spitting the water out of your mouth very quickly.
00:07:42.000 So in a freshwater pool or lake, you get away with more.
00:07:47.000 But in the ocean, you swallow that saltwater, you're going to get sick as hell.
00:07:51.000 So all this stuff's going on.
00:07:53.000 So by 5 in the morning, you've been swimming for 5 hours, you're getting cold.
00:07:59.000 You're, I mean, you know, frankly, just physiologically, like your cortisol levels are at a nadir, you're just, you feel horrible.
00:08:06.000 It's like, it's a really bad feeling.
00:08:08.000 And you're not even halfway there.
00:08:10.000 And it's like, you don't know if you can do it and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:13.000 Well, if six hours later, you're now crawling out of the water feeling like you've done this amazing thing, that that's emotional acceleration.
00:08:21.000 That's like the greatest contrast.
00:08:24.000 I know what you're saying.
00:08:25.000 I mean, I've never experienced that, but I was explaining the other day to a friend of mine about this camping trip that we went on in Montana when it was like nine degrees outside.
00:08:34.000 It was freezing cold.
00:08:35.000 We stayed out there for five, six days.
00:08:38.000 And then when we finally got to a hotel room, I took a shower, and it was the most amazing shower I've ever experienced in my life.
00:08:45.000 And that's a small thing.
00:08:46.000 Right, but you take a shower every day and it's like a big deal when you do it in that setting.
00:08:50.000 Or think about the meal you've had if you've been in a similar situation.
00:08:54.000 Fasting or something.
00:08:54.000 Or starving or lost at sea.
00:08:56.000 Yeah.
00:08:57.000 Yeah.
00:08:57.000 I can't imagine.
00:08:59.000 So now that you've done, how many of these have you done?
00:09:02.000 These crazy swim races?
00:09:06.000 Yeah.
00:09:07.000 Usually these major, major ones are not racist.
00:09:10.000 You're on your own.
00:09:12.000 You go to the federation that oversees that body of water and you say, hey, I want to do this.
00:09:17.000 And then you go through all the channels to do it.
00:09:19.000 They have to have an observer there and you follow these official rules.
00:09:22.000 So that you can be registered as someone who's actually completed it.
00:09:25.000 Right.
00:09:25.000 And someone's there to make sure you did it correctly.
00:09:30.000 I don't know.
00:09:31.000 I've probably done all in probably like a dozen of these, but probably like six of them really long ones.
00:09:36.000 What's the longest?
00:09:39.000 Well, that's a good question.
00:09:41.000 The Maui one was 20 miles there and back, so 40 miles total?
00:09:45.000 No, no, no.
00:09:46.000 The Maui channel is a 10-mile channel, so round-trip is 20. The bigger question is time in the water because you rarely get to swim these in a straight line.
00:09:55.000 So the Maui Lanai one...
00:09:57.000 I wanted to go Maui, Lanai, Molokai, Maui to do the triangle.
00:10:01.000 And that would have been 30 miles as a crow flies.
00:10:04.000 But we just, you know, boat captain wasn't willing to do it at night because of the tiger sharks.
00:10:09.000 And during the daytime, we couldn't physiologically figure out how one could suffer against the wind because the wind gets so brutal in the middle of the day.
00:10:19.000 So even the one that I did, which was just the there and back, I ended up swimming for 12 hours because on the first way crossing where there was no wind, it took me four hours.
00:10:32.000 And then it took eight hours to get back because I was swimming like the hypotenuse of a triangle, right?
00:10:38.000 Like the currents going this way.
00:10:40.000 So I had to swim this way just to go in a straight line.
00:10:43.000 And I still couldn't.
00:10:44.000 I almost missed Maui.
00:10:47.000 Jesus Christ.
00:10:47.000 So I almost got swept out to Molokai just because the current was about 1.7 knots, which is about as fast as I can swim.
00:10:55.000 Maybe two knots. 1.00
00:10:57.000 Fuck! 1.00
00:11:00.000 That is a ridiculous thing, man. 1.00
00:11:02.000 Why are you doing this? 1.00
00:11:04.000 This is maniacal.
00:11:05.000 Well, I don't do it anymore.
00:11:07.000 I mean, it was certainly an amazing season of my life, but I think once my daughter was born, Which was 10 years ago this summer.
00:11:19.000 That's when I... I only probably did two of these after she was born. 0.77
00:11:23.000 Because then the training just got so...
00:11:25.000 I just...
00:11:25.000 You gotta live in the water if you want to do this sport.
00:11:28.000 Like, you gotta...
00:11:30.000 Including the winter, you know, like, you know, even in San Diego where I live it's still, you know, 55 degrees in the water and you're gonna spend three four hours a day in the water Freezing, you know, it's just so I was like, you know, I just don't have the the drive to spend 25 hours a week swimming Yeah,
00:11:49.000 what was the what was going on in San Diego when that guy got bit in half by a shark a couple years back they were training for something and Yeah, it's funny you remember that.
00:11:58.000 That was May of 2008. I remember that like it was yesterday.
00:12:02.000 So at the time, I lived in San Francisco.
00:12:04.000 And this is actually just before I swam the Maui thing.
00:12:07.000 Now that I think about it, that was 10 years ago.
00:12:08.000 I swam the Maui thing in June of 06, June of 08. So I'm doing all my training in a swimming pool up in San Francisco because I don't want to acclimate to very cold water.
00:12:20.000 I actually want to be in warm water.
00:12:22.000 But I needed one long ocean swim of like 14 or 15 miles as my like last training swim.
00:12:29.000 So I came down to San Diego to do it.
00:12:31.000 And just by bad luck, I came down a few days after that guy was killed.
00:12:36.000 Now, this was a guy, I didn't know him, but he was a triathlete training with a triathlon group that they would go out and swim every morning.
00:12:43.000 And I know the beach exactly where it happened, in Solana Beach.
00:12:46.000 And unfortunately, like most people who get attacked by great whites, they have a very... 0.97
00:12:53.000 We're good to go.
00:13:10.000 I actually had a friend who was on the beach and saw him when he came out and he was basically dead when he got to shore.
00:13:17.000 He had bled to death.
00:13:18.000 The problem is – so in this case, the shark had bit him and cut through his femoral arteries and veins and the saltwater prevents you from having any hemostasis.
00:13:27.000 So it exacerbates the blood loss.
00:13:30.000 So that's generally how folks perish when they're bit by great whites. 1.00
00:13:33.000 Trevor Burrus How did they get him out of the water?
00:13:36.000 A bunch of other swimmers came to his rescue, and luckily that commotion prevents the sharks from wanting to come back.
00:13:42.000 So three days later, I go out and I'm swimming at that beach because I swam from my training swim was La Jolla up to Solana Beach and back.
00:13:52.000 And I got to tell you, like, three days after a guy dies where you're swimming, it was about one of the most mentally challenging training swims to be like...
00:14:05.000 Because you can't see.
00:14:06.000 Like, the water at that part of the beach is so murky, you know, and you're only a couple hundred yards offshore that, like, you can barely see your hands when you're swimming.
00:14:16.000 And so you're just thinking, is this the day?
00:14:20.000 Oof.
00:14:21.000 Dude.
00:14:23.000 Yeah, I'm not interested in that.
00:14:25.000 Gee, I can't see why.
00:14:26.000 Yeah, there's just something about sharks, too.
00:14:29.000 I mean, they're, to me, one of the most terrifying things.
00:14:31.000 But first of all, we're so inept in the water.
00:14:34.000 I mean, even a person like you, who's a great swimmer. 0.92
00:14:37.000 Yeah, yeah, we're a joke.
00:14:38.000 Yeah, what we are in comparison to what they are, it's just you're throwing yourself into the world of a super predator.
00:14:46.000 And to know that one just jacked a person just a few days before and you're out there swimming around.
00:14:52.000 Yeah, although I will say this, you know, when it's all said and done, all of the close encounters I've had, probably the scariest moment I've ever had in the water was doing a swim from Santa Rosa to Santa Barbara.
00:15:02.000 So Santa Rosa Island, which is the second furthest north channel island, you've got San Miguel, Santa Rosa, Santa Cruz, and Anacapa represent the top four channel islands.
00:15:11.000 So we did this November swim.
00:15:13.000 It was a nighttime thing again, swimming from Santa Rosa Island to Santa Barbara.
00:15:33.000 Right.
00:15:46.000 And I like, you know, like lift up out of the water, kind of hyperventilate for a second.
00:15:51.000 And I'm thinking to myself, all right, you got to make a judgment call here.
00:15:53.000 If that's really a great white, you probably ought to get out of the water. 1.00
00:15:57.000 But if you, the moment you're out of the water, that's it.
00:15:59.000 The swim is over.
00:16:00.000 Like you just spent like months doing this, like it's done.
00:16:05.000 So then I convinced myself, and I think I'm right.
00:16:07.000 I think it was a dolphin on its side.
00:16:09.000 Because a dolphin on its side, its tail fin would be the same way, and it could swim that way.
00:16:15.000 So in the end, I just kept swimming.
00:16:17.000 But I mean, that scared the shit out of me.
00:16:18.000 Well, they have seen quite a few of them off the coast of Malibu.
00:16:22.000 Oh, there's tons.
00:16:23.000 There's no question.
00:16:24.000 They are way more plentiful than we realize.
00:16:28.000 And all you can do is talk to the fishermen.
00:16:30.000 Like, the fishermen will tell you.
00:16:31.000 They're like, off Coronado?
00:16:33.000 I mean, it's like, there's nonstop great whites. 0.97
00:16:36.000 Really?
00:16:36.000 Oh, yeah.
00:16:37.000 Yeah.
00:16:38.000 Why are you freaking me out, Peter?
00:16:41.000 The good news is they see us all the time, and most of the time they realize we're not what they want.
00:16:47.000 Yeah, they want seals, right?
00:16:48.000 Yeah.
00:16:49.000 Whenever they attack us, they're making a mistake.
00:16:52.000 Now, is there a suit you can wear, like a Kevlar suit that protects you from getting bitten in half?
00:16:59.000 No, but this is so funny you bring this up.
00:17:01.000 I became obsessed with this thing called the...
00:17:06.000 Oh, what was it called?
00:17:07.000 Christ.
00:17:09.000 You'd put the thing on your ankle.
00:17:10.000 Like, you had, like, a little Velcro thing.
00:17:11.000 You'd wrap it on your ankle and it had a tail.
00:17:13.000 Like, this long, you know, like, four-foot-long thing.
00:17:16.000 And it was charged. 0.94
00:17:18.000 And it sends out an electrical impulse that disturbs the shit out of the sharks.
00:17:24.000 The shark's nose is an organ that senses electricity.
00:17:28.000 So when a shark...
00:17:29.000 Like, the...
00:17:30.000 It could be pitch black.
00:17:31.000 It could be soot water.
00:17:33.000 And they can still scope you, you know, from hundreds of yards away based on the electrical activity of your heart.
00:17:38.000 And that organ is their nose. 0.98
00:17:40.000 So this little thing, I forget what it was called, like the shark taser or some shit. 0.60
00:17:44.000 It puts out a signal that like tases them and they don't want to get within like... 0.74
00:17:48.000 Oh, there it is.
00:17:49.000 James got it up here.
00:17:50.000 The world's first shark deterrent band.
00:17:52.000 It's called the shark bands.
00:17:54.000 One on the wrist or ankle.
00:17:56.000 Is this it?
00:17:57.000 I don't know.
00:17:57.000 I thought it had a different name.
00:17:59.000 Because the one that I was going to get and did a ton of research into had a really long tail hanging off it.
00:18:04.000 And that became the problem.
00:18:06.000 It uses patented magnetic technology to repel sharks.
00:18:10.000 So the tail was a problem because of the drag?
00:18:12.000 No, because it would...
00:18:13.000 It sounds silly, but it would come up and zap you in the nuts. 0.97
00:18:16.000 Oh, Christ.
00:18:18.000 So it became unbearable to practice swimming in this thing.
00:18:21.000 Because you're like...
00:18:22.000 Every 37 seconds, you'd get zapped by the tail.
00:18:28.000 And I was just like, yeah.
00:18:29.000 I like how it says, reduce the risk.
00:18:31.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:32.000 Can I get some numbers, please?
00:18:34.000 Yeah.
00:18:35.000 I don't want to just hear reduce.
00:18:37.000 By how much?
00:18:38.000 By 1% statistically.
00:18:43.000 And it also is a leash for your surfboard, too.
00:18:46.000 You can use one of those to strap it to your ankle.
00:18:51.000 Yeah, no.
00:18:53.000 It's going to come to me in an hour.
00:18:55.000 I'll remember what this silly thing was called.
00:18:56.000 Jamie will probably find it.
00:18:57.000 Off of Catalina, I know it's one of the best shark fishing places in the world.
00:19:03.000 I have a friend of mine who told me that if you think about wild places on Earth that are just overrun with predators and terrifying predator-prey activity, Catalina Island is one of the top spots in the world.
00:19:17.000 I was like, what are you talking about? 0.97
00:19:18.000 He's like, I'm telling you, man, the shark fishing off Catalina Island is fucking insane. 0.95
00:19:24.000 And then I watched a television show, just, you know, synchronicity, a couple days later. 0.89
00:19:29.000 And it was these guys shark fishing off of Catalina. 0.99
00:19:33.000 I was like, what in the fuck? 0.99
00:19:34.000 I could have never guessed! 1.00
00:19:36.000 They're catching makos, mostly. 1.00
00:19:38.000 Yeah, and it's actually, my recollection, because we swam around Catalina once as well, the back side is way more aggressive than the front side.
00:19:47.000 The side that faces the Pacific rather than faces Los Angeles?
00:19:50.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:19:50.000 That's right.
00:19:50.000 Yeah, there's way more crazy stuff out there.
00:19:53.000 Yeah, I think that's exactly where they were.
00:19:54.000 Yeah, it looked pretty nuts.
00:19:56.000 I mean, they were bringing in these 15-foot sharks. 0.99
00:19:58.000 I mean, I was like, what in the fuck? 0.99
00:20:00.000 These are just floating around out there. 0.99
00:20:02.000 You know?
00:20:04.000 I mean, I guess, of course they are, right?
00:20:06.000 I mean, there's a lot of fish out there as well, so I'm sure they...
00:20:10.000 Catalina is amazing.
00:20:12.000 Pretty crazy place.
00:20:13.000 I'd swum to it, I'd swum from it, I'd swum around it, I'd done another thing, and I'd never stepped foot on it except at the beginning or end of a swim until five years ago I went there for a vacation.
00:20:23.000 Like, I actually just went to Avalon for, you know, three days.
00:20:27.000 I'm like, it's not a place I could live.
00:20:29.000 It's a little, you know, too quiet.
00:20:31.000 But for three or four days, it was amazing.
00:20:34.000 I think people hunt on Catalina.
00:20:37.000 They've got huge buffalo there.
00:20:38.000 Is that what it is?
00:20:39.000 Yeah.
00:20:39.000 So apparently there was a movie that was made there back in the 20s or something like that.
00:20:43.000 And they just let a bunch of buffalo lose?
00:20:44.000 Well, they had a bunch of buffalo, yeah, for the movie.
00:20:46.000 And I guess they never, like, corralled them or something.
00:20:49.000 So it's totally overrun with buffalo.
00:20:51.000 Yeah.
00:20:51.000 Well, there was one of the Channel Islands that they had actually turned into a bow hunting destination.
00:20:58.000 Like, they had brought in a bunch of deer.
00:21:00.000 I think they brought in stags and a bunch of weird exotic shit, and they put them on this island. 0.99
00:21:05.000 I think they even had elk. 0.97
00:21:06.000 And then biologists just weren't having it.
00:21:10.000 They're like, this is just so out of whack.
00:21:12.000 And so they had them eradicated.
00:21:14.000 And the way they do that is, it's pretty gruesome.
00:21:17.000 They just gun down from the air and just leave the bodies.
00:21:21.000 Yeah.
00:21:21.000 They just decided that they were an invasive species, regardless of how valuable they might have been to people that wanted to go there and eat them.
00:21:28.000 You know, they just decided, just for the ecosystem alone.
00:21:32.000 And there's no predators there, and they weren't going to... 0.99
00:21:34.000 Turn the fucking island to Wild Kingdom and bring wolves or something in there. 1.00
00:21:38.000 Yeah, yeah. 1.00
00:21:38.000 Which would be pretty goddamn crazy. 1.00
00:21:40.000 Imagine if there was an island you could go and they just had wolves and elk running around on an island. 0.95
00:21:45.000 Well, I'm surprised they would gun them all down.
00:21:47.000 At least, say, make it open season for hunting or something like that.
00:21:50.000 They could have been productive about it.
00:21:51.000 Well, that's an interesting perspective.
00:21:54.000 So biologists look at it in terms of the entire ecosystem, right?
00:21:59.000 They look at it in terms of the plants.
00:22:01.000 The amount of waste, fecal waste that these animals are leaving behind.
00:22:05.000 The fact that they're literally eating everything that they can on this island.
00:22:09.000 They're not supposed to be there.
00:22:11.000 And then they're competing with whatever things are native to that island. 0.99
00:22:16.000 And probably, I mean, if you've got a thousand pound elk, it's not supposed to be on a fucking island. 0.99
00:22:20.000 This thing is just eating everything it can. 1.00
00:22:22.000 And they don't have a winter either.
00:22:25.000 So it's just like the whole, like they're just not supposed to be there.
00:22:28.000 The Channel Islands themselves are kind of amazing.
00:22:30.000 I mean, most people know of Catalina, but, you know, there's eight of them.
00:22:33.000 And now two of them you can't step foot on.
00:22:37.000 You're not allowed to?
00:22:38.000 No, San Clemente and San Nicolas.
00:22:40.000 They're military bases.
00:22:41.000 Oh, okay.
00:22:41.000 So we tried to do a swim from San Nicolas back to Los Angeles.
00:22:45.000 This was a relay swim because this is like an 85-mile swim.
00:22:50.000 And I spent like six months researching it, speaking to a bunch of naval officers.
00:22:54.000 I was like, hey, is there any way we can – because you officially have to start a swim.
00:22:58.000 You have to be able to touch dry land and be out of the water.
00:23:01.000 And they're like, yeah, you can't come on the island.
00:23:03.000 So in the end, what we decided was we were just going to do a stealth landing.
00:23:07.000 By the time they came down and screamed at us and shot at us, we'd have been off the island.
00:23:11.000 But – Then we got to the island.
00:23:13.000 Now, the other big thing about Sand Nick is that's real shark territory because that's where the elephant seals live.
00:23:19.000 And so when we got out there, we literally could not get to shore because of the elephant seals.
00:23:25.000 Like, we're 200 yards off Sand Nick.
00:23:28.000 And, you know, this is after taking a full two days to get out there.
00:23:31.000 I mean, this place is really hard to get to because the water is brutal and you're not in a huge boat.
00:23:35.000 And, yeah, you're looking at, like, 1,000-pound elephant seals that are just, like, licking their chops, looking at you trying to get in the water.
00:23:43.000 What would they do with you?
00:23:44.000 I didn't want to find out.
00:23:46.000 But they're not predatory, right?
00:23:47.000 I mean, are they?
00:23:48.000 No, I think they're aggressive as hell. 1.00
00:23:50.000 Did you see that video of the little girl that's sitting on a dock and a seal jumps up and grabs her in the ass and pulls her into the water? 0.99
00:23:57.000 Did you ever see that, Jamie? 0.97
00:23:59.000 Yeah, and I didn't think that seals ever did something like that before.
00:24:02.000 I don't know.
00:24:03.000 I did see a special once about how dolphins could be kind of aggressive with each other.
00:24:08.000 Like, they could harm...
00:24:09.000 You know, they could...
00:24:10.000 Look at this.
00:24:11.000 So this seal is sitting there, and this girl... 0.93
00:24:14.000 The sea lion, actually.
00:24:15.000 Look at this.
00:24:16.000 It comes up, and they think the sea lion's being cute.
00:24:19.000 They think it's all cute.
00:24:20.000 Yeah.
00:24:24.000 But I think it was probably looking for a handout, and these people weren't giving it to her. 0.99
00:24:29.000 Oh, and then she turns her butt off. 1.00
00:24:31.000 Oh, my God! 1.00
00:24:32.000 Oh, my God!
00:24:33.000 Oh, my God!
00:24:35.000 Jesus. 1.00
00:24:37.000 Yeah, fuck that thing. 1.00
00:24:39.000 Oh, man. 1.00
00:24:41.000 I'd be like, I'd be right back. 1.00
00:24:43.000 Fill that fucking puddle with lead. 1.00
00:24:45.000 Oh, my God. 1.00
00:24:47.000 That was fast. 0.94
00:24:48.000 Imagine if they bit your kid.
00:24:49.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:24:49.000 Yeah, they jumped up fast.
00:24:51.000 Yeah, they're predators.
00:24:52.000 I mean, they eat things.
00:24:54.000 Yeah.
00:24:54.000 They're not eating plants in the water.
00:24:56.000 They're eating fish and shit. 0.99
00:24:58.000 Whatever they can get a hold of. 0.99
00:24:59.000 They probably eat birds and stuff too.
00:25:00.000 They're probably used to scooping things up. 0.94
00:25:02.000 But I bet that what that's from is them getting too acclimated to people.
00:25:06.000 People feeding them.
00:25:08.000 Oh, for sure.
00:25:09.000 Yeah, they have an issue in Boulder where...
00:25:15.000 Boulder is...
00:25:16.000 Have you ever been to Colorado?
00:25:18.000 Yeah.
00:25:18.000 Yeah.
00:25:18.000 Beautiful, right?
00:25:19.000 Gorgeous.
00:25:20.000 Super liberal.
00:25:21.000 Like, as progressive as it gets, right?
00:25:24.000 You haven't been to San Francisco.
00:25:25.000 Oh, I have.
00:25:26.000 Yeah.
00:25:26.000 I think Boulder is right up there, but there's less people.
00:25:31.000 Everyone's real healthy and active and hiking and stuff like that.
00:25:34.000 They don't allow...
00:25:36.000 Hunting for mountain goats on the weekends because there's so many people hiking and going.
00:25:43.000 They don't want people killing these mountain goats in front of them because people freak out.
00:25:47.000 Even though they have decided that they have to control the population and kill a certain number of them.
00:25:54.000 But so many people go out there that these things aren't scared of people.
00:26:00.000 So it's created this really weird situation where if you are hunting them, You're almost hunting something that's domesticated. 0.97
00:26:10.000 People feed him Cheetos, so much so that a friend of mine was talking about it, that he was up there with his daughter, his daughter opened up a bag of Cheetos and the goat walked right to, a wild goat lives out in the fucking woods, walked right up to his daughter and they were laughing, 0.91
00:26:26.000 she opened up the bag of Cheetos and put it, and he stuffed his head in the bag of Cheetos, he knew what to do. 0.94
00:26:33.000 And this guy who was talking about this is a hunter. 0.99
00:26:36.000 And he's like, this fucking goat has, like, Cheeto dust all over its face. 1.00
00:26:41.000 Like, it's the craziest thing. 1.00
00:26:42.000 Its face is all red with Cheeto dust, and it's sitting there chewing these Cheetos.
00:26:45.000 Like, it's done it before.
00:26:46.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:26:48.000 That goat had diabetes, I think.
00:26:50.000 Probably eventually, right?
00:26:52.000 Yeah, I was in Costa Rica.
00:26:54.000 There's another similar situation.
00:26:55.000 And we were staying at this Four Seasons out there.
00:26:58.000 And the monkeys have gotten very accustomed to people being there.
00:27:03.000 And so they come by and they hang out and they're like trying to get things from you.
00:27:09.000 And my daughter opened up a package of Oreos and the monkey just jumped onto this little ledge like a couple feet away from her.
00:27:16.000 And my wife was like, I really don't think it's a good idea that we feed this thing Oreos. 0.99
00:27:21.000 And I said, well, you know, it's probably going to get eaten by a fucking crocodile anyway. 0.98
00:27:25.000 I mean, are we poisoning it? 0.99
00:27:28.000 Is that what you're thinking?
00:27:29.000 I mean, it's not going to eat this every day.
00:27:30.000 It's not going to be a normal part of its diet.
00:27:32.000 But we hand the monkey an Oreo.
00:27:35.000 It pops open the Oreo and starts chewing on the frosting like a little kid. 1.00
00:27:40.000 And then we're like, oh, this little fucker probably gets these things every week. 1.00
00:27:43.000 Right, so it begs the question. 0.99
00:27:45.000 Does he know how to do that because he's watched some human do it, or are we innately wired to do that with Oreos?
00:27:52.000 Ooh.
00:27:53.000 I think he knows how to do it because someone's given him Oreos so many times that he knows that's the good stuff.
00:27:59.000 The good stuff's the middle.
00:28:02.000 They should just sell that in a paste.
00:28:04.000 Oh, I don't know.
00:28:05.000 I think the middle's only good because you can contrast it.
00:28:10.000 It comes back to the contrast thing.
00:28:11.000 Exactly.
00:28:11.000 I think you're right.
00:28:12.000 I think you're really right.
00:28:13.000 I think if it was just pure middle, it'd be pretty gross.
00:28:15.000 Yeah, if they probably sold pure middle, nobody would buy it. 0.99
00:28:17.000 But if they sold those black cookies by themselves, no one would buy those fucking gross things either. 0.99
00:28:22.000 No. 1.00
00:28:23.000 Shitty-ass tea biscuits. 0.99
00:28:25.000 They're the worst cookies. 1.00
00:28:26.000 Once you eat the white stuff, you're like, alright, I'll eat this stupid-ass black cookie. 1.00
00:28:31.000 It's the sunk cost in you. 1.00
00:28:32.000 It's like a coal cookie.
00:28:33.000 Here it is.
00:28:34.000 Here's a little monkey doing it. 1.00
00:28:35.000 Look, they grab it from you, and they just fucking love it. 0.99
00:28:38.000 Look at them opening it up immediately. 0.99
00:28:40.000 Open it up and start chewing that white stuff.
00:28:43.000 I love it.
00:28:44.000 Yeah.
00:28:45.000 Crazy.
00:28:48.000 There's a thing that is called the Coatamundi.
00:28:52.000 Have you ever heard of those?
00:28:54.000 It's related to the raccoon.
00:28:57.000 It's this weird animal that lives mostly in Central and South America, and it has a northern range that extends into Arizona, all the way up into Mesa, I think.
00:29:08.000 It gets into the areas where it gets cold.
00:29:10.000 But Arizona, I think, is the only state in the U.S. that has it.
00:29:15.000 But it's this weird looking monkey raccoon thing that is so domesticated that we gave it some grapes.
00:29:22.000 Here it is.
00:29:24.000 We gave it some grapes. 1.00
00:29:26.000 And this little fucker, there it is. 1.00
00:29:28.000 I mean, look at that weird little thing. 1.00
00:29:29.000 It came and sat, we had like a little patio area in the hotel room, and it came and sat down with us, and so calm that it sat and went underneath one of the chairs and took a nap after we gave it some grapes.
00:29:44.000 Like, while we're hanging around.
00:29:45.000 My daughters are running around making noise, and this thing's just chilling.
00:29:48.000 It's like a pet.
00:29:49.000 It was a total pet.
00:29:51.000 It was a total pet.
00:29:52.000 Yeah.
00:29:53.000 Yeah, there they are.
00:29:54.000 They're cool, man.
00:29:55.000 Weird looking things.
00:29:56.000 People eat them, apparently.
00:29:59.000 Apparently they hunt them in Arizona.
00:30:02.000 He's eating nachos.
00:30:04.000 Yeah.
00:30:04.000 I mean, after seeing this, I was just like, I don't think I can hunt that.
00:30:09.000 I'd have to be pretty hungry to eat one of those.
00:30:12.000 They're so cute.
00:30:13.000 Little face.
00:30:14.000 Weird little animal men.
00:30:17.000 Really interesting.
00:30:18.000 Yeah.
00:30:18.000 Our relationship with animals is very odd when they get into close proximity.
00:30:22.000 Yeah.
00:30:23.000 Yeah.
00:30:24.000 We've got a wicked coyote problem in San Diego, at least in the part I live in.
00:30:29.000 You know, it's just one of those things.
00:30:30.000 Once we got rid of mountain lions, because nobody wants mountain lions around, the coyotes run amok.
00:30:36.000 Is that what it is?
00:30:37.000 I think...
00:30:38.000 I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine about this the other day, actually, and he was saying that there's probably only, like, in our neighborhood, there's probably only, like, two mountain lions left.
00:30:46.000 And the coyotes just – they've exploded.
00:30:51.000 There's so many of them around.
00:30:54.000 And it doesn't really bother me that much.
00:30:55.000 I mean I actually kind of like listening to them howl.
00:30:58.000 But if they get into your chicken coop – Yeah, I had one kill chickens just a few weeks ago.
00:31:04.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:31:06.000 I have a video of a dead chicken.
00:31:08.000 It's such a bummer, man.
00:31:09.000 We chased it away.
00:31:10.000 It was on the roof of the chicken coop.
00:31:12.000 The way they jump is so stunning.
00:31:15.000 Like, they're so graceful.
00:31:17.000 Like, I've never seen anything that moves like that in the wild the way a coyote does.
00:31:24.000 There's a six-foot fence.
00:31:26.000 It's on the ground.
00:31:27.000 It jumps to the top of the six-foot fence, almost like it's under different gravity rules than us, and touches the top of the fence, and then boom, it's on the top of the chicken coop.
00:31:36.000 I mean, in like a second.
00:31:38.000 Wow.
00:31:39.000 I haven't seen that.
00:31:40.000 That would be, yeah.
00:31:41.000 It's crazy.
00:31:41.000 I have video of one of them jumping my fence.
00:31:44.000 I caught one of them with a chicken in his mouth, jumping the fence, jumped the six-foot fence with a chicken in his mouth.
00:31:49.000 Just jump, boing, top.
00:31:53.000 We're good to go.
00:32:15.000 They really do.
00:32:15.000 You need them for that.
00:32:16.000 But there's a coyote problem across the country.
00:32:19.000 They're the only animal that's in every single state and every single city now.
00:32:23.000 Every single city.
00:32:25.000 There's coyotes in Manhattan.
00:32:28.000 Come on! 0.61
00:32:29.000 I'm not bullshitting.
00:32:30.000 In the park?
00:32:31.000 They found them in the park.
00:32:32.000 They found them in the Bronx.
00:32:34.000 They found them in abandoned buildings.
00:32:37.000 Yeah, there's a great book I read called Coyote America by a past guest of the podcast named Dan Flores.
00:32:43.000 He's a wildlife historian.
00:32:45.000 It's fascinating.
00:32:46.000 They're a really unusual animal in that when you shoot one, they yell out, here's this, coyotes in New York City.
00:32:54.000 Look at this. 1.00
00:32:55.000 In fucking New York City, dude. 1.00
00:32:57.000 In New York City. 1.00
00:32:59.000 New York City Police Department, coyote running down the street.
00:33:02.000 Unbelievable.
00:33:03.000 They're everywhere, man.
00:33:04.000 They have a real problem with them in Chicago.
00:33:06.000 I thought I could escape them when I'm in New York.
00:33:09.000 No, you can't escape them anywhere.
00:33:10.000 They're in all 50 states now.
00:33:12.000 They've completely extended their range.
00:33:14.000 And the reason why they extended their range is because we went after them.
00:33:18.000 We hunted them down.
00:33:19.000 They were able to eradicate wolves.
00:33:22.000 And the way they were able to eradicate wolves is...
00:33:25.000 They would kill the alpha, and then they would take an animal like a horse, they would shoot it, and then they would fill it up with strychnine.
00:33:33.000 And so then they would rub the alpha, the body of the alpha, all over this carcass of the horse, and then the other wolves would come and smell that the alpha had been there, and then they would eat the horse and die.
00:33:46.000 And so they were able to do this and essentially use this method, plus shooting them and things like that, to eradicate them from the West because of ranchers and cattle farmers.
00:33:56.000 They've never been able to do that with coyotes.
00:33:58.000 When you shoot a coyote, if they do roll call, like when you hear them howling, if one of them is missing, it sends the females, it sends some sort of a signal where their bodies produce more pups.
00:34:11.000 So if one's missing, instead of having like three pups, you'll have six.
00:34:16.000 So you make more coyotes when you kill them, and they extend their range.
00:34:19.000 When you persecute them, they just extend their range. 1.00
00:34:22.000 They're a fucking crazy animal. 1.00
00:34:24.000 They are wicked smart, man. 1.00
00:34:25.000 They've been chewing at the roof of my chicken coop, trying to get in.
00:34:28.000 I came outside the other night.
00:34:31.000 My dog, I have a... 0.99
00:34:33.000 I have three dogs, but one of them is a golden retriever, and that dog has fucking zero instincts. 0.99
00:34:39.000 I mean, it is just a little human. 0.99
00:34:43.000 It's a little marshmallow.
00:34:45.000 Yeah, he's fun to go running with and stuff.
00:34:47.000 He's a great dog, sweetheart of a dog, great pet, but he's like, what's going on over there?
00:34:52.000 What's happening? 0.99
00:34:53.000 There's a fucking coyote on the roof, dude! 0.99
00:34:54.000 What do you mean what's going on over there? 0.99
00:34:56.000 They're literally chewing the shingles off the roof when we got outside.
00:34:59.000 Do your job.
00:34:59.000 You have one job to do.
00:35:00.000 Go bark.
00:35:02.000 He's not interested.
00:35:04.000 He's only a year old, too, but he's just curious.
00:35:08.000 It's very weird living in proximity with all these things because where I live, we have a lot of hawks, a lot of owls, a lot of coyotes, and occasionally a mountain lion.
00:35:18.000 I saw a bobcat once, which is pretty interesting.
00:35:23.000 I've never seen one of those.
00:35:24.000 They're weird looking.
00:35:25.000 It's a weird looking thing to see.
00:35:26.000 A friend of mine, I put it up on Instagram.
00:35:30.000 See if you can find it. 0.99
00:35:31.000 It's fucking old. 0.99
00:35:32.000 It's an old one on Instagram. 0.99
00:35:35.000 A friend of mine had a coyote or a bobcat break into her chicken coop and kill every one of her chickens.
00:35:41.000 And the coyote, there it is. 1.00
00:35:43.000 Look at that fucking freaky bitch. 1.00
00:35:45.000 How'd you find it so quick? 1.00
00:35:46.000 You're an animal. 0.99
00:35:47.000 He's a bobcat.
00:35:48.000 He's got the best searching skills of all time.
00:35:51.000 But look at that.
00:35:51.000 That's in my friend's chicken coop.
00:35:54.000 With a bunch of murdered chickens scattered around it. 0.95
00:35:57.000 Look at the look in that thing's face. 0.86
00:35:59.000 Yeah. 1.00
00:36:00.000 Fuck that. 1.00
00:36:01.000 That look is fuck you. 1.00
00:36:03.000 Yeah, that look is fuck you, lady. 1.00
00:36:05.000 Yeah, it killed your chickens. 1.00
00:36:06.000 Why do you have them outside?
00:36:09.000 Whew. 0.94
00:36:11.000 Crazy, man. 0.83
00:36:13.000 So how do you know Jocko? 0.53
00:36:15.000 This is how we got connected.
00:36:16.000 Tell the folks at home. 0.98
00:36:18.000 Jocko's like, prepare to get your brain blown out. 0.91
00:36:21.000 I'm going to send my friend over. 0.87
00:36:22.000 I was like, all right, let's do it.
00:36:23.000 So I met Jocko through one of my really close friends, a guy named Kirk Parsley, who's also a Navy SEAL, a former SEAL. And Kirk said, hey, you got to meet my friend Jocko.
00:36:36.000 Basically, it's just like, you just got to meet Jocko.
00:36:38.000 You just have to experience Jocko.
00:36:40.000 That was basically what...
00:36:41.000 He's like a ride.
00:36:42.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:43.000 So I met Jocko.
00:36:46.000 We obviously connected pretty quickly.
00:36:48.000 And then I think...
00:36:51.000 Oh, this was before Jocko's book had come out.
00:36:53.000 His first, first book had come out.
00:36:56.000 And I said, I got to introduce you to one of my best friends, this guy, Tim Ferriss, who obviously you know Tim.
00:37:02.000 Because Tim's always looking for a great guest on a podcast.
00:37:05.000 And so...
00:37:06.000 I called Tim and I said, look, you got to just trust me on this one.
00:37:10.000 Sight unseen.
00:37:11.000 Just have Jocko come to San Francisco next week.
00:37:14.000 I don't need to say anything else.
00:37:15.000 It will be worth it.
00:37:17.000 Luckily, I had enough credit in the bank with Tim.
00:37:20.000 I've been successful on enough sight unseen recommendations, but I think the Jocko one was the best one ever because he called me while Jocko was still there and he's like, Yeah, that was pretty intense.
00:37:32.000 Yeah, I sent him an email after that podcast.
00:37:34.000 I'm like, that's one of the best podcasts I've ever heard in my life.
00:37:36.000 And I made a post about it.
00:37:38.000 Jocko responded to the post.
00:37:39.000 And then I got Jocko on.
00:37:40.000 And then I, and Tim, convinced Jocko to do his own podcast.
00:37:44.000 And now it's huge.
00:37:45.000 I mean, his podcast, I get text messages all the time.
00:37:49.000 From people thanking me for telling them to listen to it.
00:37:52.000 And then I get tweets from people thanking me for talking Jocko into doing it.
00:37:56.000 Because it's just...
00:37:57.000 There's outliers in this world.
00:38:00.000 You know?
00:38:01.000 In everything.
00:38:02.000 There's outliers in athletics.
00:38:04.000 But when it comes to discipline and motivation and just...
00:38:08.000 Just when you look at someone who's just undeniable.
00:38:12.000 Like, Jocko's one of those guys.
00:38:14.000 He's just undeniable.
00:38:16.000 He's a specimen.
00:38:17.000 He's definitely...
00:38:20.000 Off the graph.
00:38:21.000 Yeah, I met him a long time ago when he was training with Dean Lister, and Dean was fighting in the UFC. I remember meeting him, and I'm like, what's that guy's deal?
00:38:32.000 There's certain dudes that have got a whole lot of shit going on behind their eyes. 0.97
00:38:36.000 You're like, okay, that guy's seen some stuff, you know? 0.99
00:38:40.000 Yeah, I'll tell you a funny Jocko story.
00:38:42.000 I guess I can tell this story in public.
00:38:44.000 It's pretty funny.
00:38:47.000 So, Jocko was in New York just after his book came out and I was like, look, I want to introduce you to some of my buddies who run hedge funds here because a lot of what Jocko does is he and his partner, they consult with guys like this doing leadership stuff.
00:39:03.000 And so we went up to the offices of one of my friends who has this very famous hedge fund and his office is like on the 50th floor on Park and it's looking, it's like a beautiful view down Park. 0.95
00:39:13.000 And we're just sitting there in his office just shooting this shit and I forget how it came up but somehow we were just talking about like how good is a sniper? 0.97
00:39:24.000 Like what does it actually take? 0.99
00:39:26.000 And And then, of course, we're talking very specifically about...
00:39:30.000 I can't believe I'm blanking on his name.
00:39:34.000 Chris...
00:39:34.000 Bradley Cooper played him in...
00:39:37.000 Yeah, Chris Kyle.
00:39:39.000 Because Chris Kyle had been part of Jocko's team.
00:39:44.000 I forget which SEAL team.
00:39:45.000 Maybe it was when he was SEAL Team 2. In fact, I think Jocko said, he goes, you know, yeah, Chris was a part of my team for more of his kills than any of his other kills.
00:39:55.000 And so then we were like, what sets him apart?
00:39:59.000 I mean, obviously, any Navy SEAL sniper has got to be amazing.
00:40:02.000 But Chris took it to another level.
00:40:04.000 What was it?
00:40:05.000 And he said, okay, let me show you what it was.
00:40:08.000 So he said – so he walked us over to the window and he goes, okay, you see that guy in that hat over there like about a mile down the – you could basically see it because it was like a pink hat or something.
00:40:19.000 I said, yeah.
00:40:19.000 He goes, okay.
00:40:20.000 If you're a sniper, you've got to be able to lay down, not move, and put your eye up against this thing and look out at him.
00:40:28.000 And if you ever take your eye off that, you're going to lose the sight.
00:40:33.000 So you've got to be able to stay in that position and not move and do that.
00:40:36.000 And I forget what the number was, but Jaco said, the average Navy SEAL sniper can stay in that position without moving, eye glued to the sight for X number of minutes.
00:40:46.000 And I forget what the number was.
00:40:47.000 Maybe it was like 15 minutes.
00:40:49.000 He's like, Chris could do that for two hours.
00:40:52.000 He could lay in that position, not moving, and not taking his eye off that thing with one eye shut for hours.
00:41:00.000 And he just had a different gear.
00:41:05.000 And it was just an amazing...
00:41:07.000 I mean, those are some of my favorite moments with Jocko is when he can tell you something that is like...
00:41:13.000 There are like maybe three people in the world that would understand why that matters, you know?
00:41:18.000 Sniping is really fascinating, right?
00:41:20.000 Because just sharpshooting, just being able to shoot something at a distance, and long-distance shooting is a big sport in terms of target shooting.
00:41:30.000 I mean, there's guys that are out there, they're shooting 1,500 yards and doing it competitively.
00:41:36.000 That's a crazy distance.
00:41:37.000 It's amazing.
00:41:38.000 It's a crazy distance.
00:41:39.000 But when you think about it, You got a rifle.
00:41:42.000 It's on a rest.
00:41:44.000 You're sitting.
00:41:45.000 You're either on a bench or you're prone or whatever it is.
00:41:47.000 You're lying down most of the time.
00:41:49.000 This is all it is.
00:41:51.000 It's this with your finger.
00:41:52.000 Pull, pull, pull, pull, pull, boom. 0.53
00:41:54.000 Some people are way better at that.
00:41:57.000 Just think of that.
00:41:58.000 Coordinating your vision.
00:42:00.000 Getting the reticle set on the target, pulling that, and without movement, the outliers are the people who can do that. 0.85
00:42:09.000 And you've got to think, like, when you break down physical movements, right, like, you watch a gymnastics routine in the Olympics, like, holy shit, and it flips, and they land, and they stick, and it's incredible. 0.66
00:42:21.000 But now break it down to just the movement of your trigger finger. 0.88
00:42:24.000 Pull, pull, pull, pull, pull. 0.99
00:42:26.000 Bang! 1.00
00:42:27.000 No movement.
00:42:29.000 I'm sure you've shot guns, but it's hard to, like, if you shoot pistols and you have dummy rounds, you know, like a lot of people, they mix in dummy rounds so that they find out they're jerking the trigger.
00:42:40.000 Yeah.
00:42:41.000 And when you see, like I was watching a video with Tim Kennedy, and Tim Kennedy was shooting at the range, and he's pulling, bang, bang, bang, and it goes click, and he goes, woo, look at that trigger control!
00:42:54.000 Because the way he pulled it...
00:42:56.000 It didn't go off target.
00:42:58.000 It didn't move.
00:42:59.000 There was no punch to it. 0.96
00:43:01.000 But you've got to fucking practice forever just to be able to do that, just to not anticipate the recoil of the gun and yank and move and twitch and just controlling the mind. 0.98
00:43:13.000 I mean, it's a fascinating thing to me that just pulling this one finger, you would think fucking anybody could do that. 0.99
00:43:19.000 I could show you how to do that. 0.98
00:43:21.000 Like I've had friends that say, They want to go hunting.
00:43:25.000 You know, I want to go hunting.
00:43:26.000 What do I do?
00:43:27.000 Where do I get a bow?
00:43:28.000 I'm like, slow down.
00:43:30.000 Let's get you a rifle, because I could teach you how to shoot a rifle.
00:43:34.000 We could sight in your rifle, go to the range, we'll sight it in 100 yards, get you a good, accurate rifle, and then all you have to do is kind of keep it together. 0.98
00:43:43.000 A rifle, we get into 100 yards of a wild pig, you're going to be able to kill this thing, 100%. 0.91
00:43:49.000 You got years before you're going to be able to shoot that thing with a bow. 1.00
00:43:53.000 I mean, fucking years. 0.99
00:43:54.000 But it is, and the bow is like... 0.99
00:43:58.000 My wife said this to me a while ago.
00:44:00.000 She said, of all the things you do, she's like, archery seems to be the only one where even if you don't have a good day, you're still happy.
00:44:08.000 Like, if I'm on the racetrack and I'm driving a race car or if I'm, you know, swimming or whatever and I just have a bad day, like, I don't – I'm just not firing on all cylinders.
00:44:17.000 Like, it, you know, it just kind of pisses me off.
00:44:20.000 There's something about archery where even if I'm not having a good day, like – Maybe it's an extension of what you're talking about with the trigger finger.
00:44:27.000 So for me, I got into archery because of Tim.
00:44:30.000 And the story that...
00:44:32.000 The thing that he told me, which obviously for anyone who...
00:44:34.000 Yeah.
00:44:35.000 The thing that he told me that immediately made me be like, I want to do this, was just anything that requires that much perfection just seems great.
00:44:42.000 And he was like, yeah, you don't take a shot unless you can kill the animal.
00:44:45.000 Like, you know? 0.89
00:44:46.000 And so, like, you might take one shot in two days. 0.99
00:44:48.000 Like, it's got to be a kill shot. 0.99
00:44:50.000 And the kill shot's got to look like X, Y, and Z. And I was like, oh, that's... 0.99
00:44:53.000 Like, you got to be dialed in.
00:44:55.000 So...
00:45:09.000 Yeah.
00:45:13.000 And so I think of archery for me as almost like a meditation.
00:45:18.000 I'm talking in the way Sam Harris would talk about consciousness and the way you are so hyper-aware of what you're doing that, yes, you can daydream and your mind can wander, but if you actually start to imagine the sensations of every part of archery,
00:45:34.000 in many ways it feels like meditating.
00:45:36.000 So I think that's why I'm just like...
00:45:39.000 I never really thought about it with shooting a rifle because I don't have much experience with guns, but I'm guessing it's very similar.
00:45:47.000 But as you said, the difference between the good and the great in that is less obvious.
00:45:54.000 Yeah, I think offhand, shooting a rifle and shooting a bow, I bet I'm just as accurate at 60 yards as the average person is.
00:46:07.000 Not a sniper, but the average person with a rifle. 0.99
00:46:10.000 You can be pretty fucking accurate. 0.99
00:46:12.000 You can't off a bench. 0.97
00:46:14.000 So there's some similarities.
00:46:16.000 There's a similarity to having the...
00:46:19.000 You have to have perfect technique.
00:46:21.000 You have to have the right stance.
00:46:22.000 You have to make sure that everything's locked in and your structure is correct.
00:46:27.000 But I agree with you that I think it's some sort of a meditation.
00:46:31.000 I also think there's something to hitting a target that is... 0.98
00:46:36.000 In our DNA that's connected to hunting, that's connected to survival, that's connected to the thousands of years that people threw arrows and fucking... 0.98
00:46:47.000 What is that thing called? 0.98
00:46:49.000 What's that thing called that they...
00:46:51.000 The atlatl thing?
00:46:52.000 Yeah, is that how you say it?
00:46:53.000 Atlatl, right?
00:46:54.000 Yeah.
00:46:54.000 You know what I'm talking about?
00:46:55.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:46:56.000 Yeah, that's like an advanced spear throwing thing.
00:46:58.000 And then archery and just...
00:47:00.000 I think...
00:47:02.000 When a person would hit a deer, they knew their tribe was going to eat.
00:47:06.000 And so there's this, like, charge.
00:47:08.000 And you get a small amount of that juice when you hit a target.
00:47:12.000 Yeah, no, I'm sure there's got to be dopamine that's being secreted when you do that.
00:47:18.000 It's the greatest feeling in the world, actually.
00:47:19.000 Yeah, it shouldn't make sense. 0.99
00:47:21.000 Like, when you're looking at someone doing it, you're like, what do you give a fuck if that arrow goes in there? 0.96
00:47:25.000 It doesn't make any sense. 0.97
00:47:26.000 Like, why does it make sense?
00:47:30.000 Jamie laughs at me because I'll hit the bullseye from 45 yards and I'm like, yes!
00:47:35.000 You get this little, woo!
00:47:37.000 You get a little burst, man.
00:47:39.000 I just like the whole experience, even the sound.
00:47:41.000 Sometimes when my veins get holes in them, sometimes you put a field tip through another one.
00:47:48.000 Now, obviously, sometimes if you trash the vein, the arrow doesn't work.
00:47:51.000 But, like, usually just a single hole in a vein will produce a sound that is the greatest sound you've ever heard when that arrow leaves.
00:47:58.000 The whistle?
00:47:59.000 Yeah.
00:47:59.000 Oh, I love it.
00:48:01.000 That's a problem with certain broadheads. 1.00
00:48:03.000 Certain vented broadheads, they whistle.
00:48:06.000 They whistle too much.
00:48:06.000 They give the animal the heads up.
00:48:08.000 Yeah.
00:48:09.000 So that whole experience of, like, the perfect release...
00:48:13.000 Even when you surprise yourself.
00:48:15.000 I switched over to this Carter Evolution release.
00:48:19.000 Back tension release.
00:48:20.000 It's the most pure back tension.
00:48:21.000 It's better than the honey.
00:48:22.000 Because the honey, you could still cheat a little bit.
00:48:25.000 If you were getting lazy, you could twist.
00:48:26.000 You could twist.
00:48:27.000 Exactly.
00:48:28.000 But the evolution, there is no cheating.
00:48:30.000 Right, you can't.
00:48:32.000 So you can surprise yourself with a shot.
00:48:35.000 Yeah, so there's no anticipation.
00:48:37.000 You can't explain this to people who don't do it.
00:48:40.000 Have you noticed that?
00:48:41.000 No, you can't. 0.93
00:48:42.000 They're like, what are you rambling about boring the shit out of me?
00:48:45.000 I have tried to explain this to people who don't know what I'm talking about. 0.73
00:48:50.000 I was trying to explain it to Alexander Gustafson, who's in here the other day, and he's a hunter too, but he only hunts in Sweden.
00:48:56.000 You can't bow hunt.
00:48:57.000 It's not legal.
00:48:58.000 And he wanted to learn how to shoot a bow, and so I was explaining that I put my finger on this trigger.
00:49:03.000 My finger sits on the trigger.
00:49:05.000 I use a card or two.
00:49:06.000 I use First Choice.
00:49:07.000 That's the name of the reason.
00:49:08.000 I go, my thumb is on the trigger, but I never squeeze it.
00:49:12.000 Yep.
00:49:12.000 The squeezing is all done with my back.
00:49:14.000 As I pull, then it just goes off.
00:49:16.000 And you can see his head was like, why?
00:49:18.000 But you could just do that, right?
00:49:20.000 Why don't you just do that?
00:49:22.000 No, you don't.
00:49:24.000 It's so counterintuitive.
00:49:26.000 But once I got into it, Tim actually sent me this book on back tension.
00:49:30.000 And then I just devoured it.
00:49:32.000 I mean, it was sort of like reading the Penny Dean book.
00:49:34.000 Is Tim doing this a lot now?
00:49:37.000 Not as much as he should be.
00:49:40.000 Is he trying to hunt with it?
00:49:41.000 Yeah.
00:49:42.000 Tim will hunt.
00:49:44.000 Has he done it so far?
00:49:46.000 I know he's hunted, but only with rifles.
00:49:48.000 No, no, no.
00:49:49.000 He's been on bow hunting trips.
00:49:50.000 That's, in fact, what got me into it.
00:49:52.000 Because about two years ago, he was getting ready to go to a trip, do a five-day trip in Colorado.
00:49:56.000 And he called me and said...
00:49:59.000 I want to talk with you about some training and some nutrition to get ready for this because it's going to be kind of an extreme whole deal.
00:50:05.000 You're at altitude.
00:50:06.000 You're running around like crazy.
00:50:07.000 You've got to be able to sprint and then be totally relaxed.
00:50:12.000 So he's like, can you help me think about how to train and what the nutrition would be?
00:50:15.000 And I said, okay, tell me more about what the demands are.
00:50:18.000 And the more he told me, the more I was like...
00:50:20.000 Why am I not doing this?
00:50:21.000 This sounds really freaking awesome.
00:50:24.000 And he's got an awesome video of this.
00:50:30.000 He only took one shot in the whole five-day trip, and it was a perfect kill.
00:50:35.000 What did he kill?
00:50:37.000 It was a huge bird, and I can't even remember what it was.
00:50:40.000 A bird?
00:50:40.000 Yeah.
00:50:41.000 It was like a bird on the ground, like some huge-ass bird.
00:50:44.000 But it wasn't a turkey.
00:50:45.000 It was like, I don't remember what it was.
00:50:46.000 But the shot, it was one of those things where it was like, Because all my practice is on stationary targets, right?
00:50:54.000 So it's a totally new dimension when it's like the thing's doing this.
00:50:59.000 Oh, so it was flying?
00:51:00.000 It was kind of like either running on the ground or about to fly or something.
00:51:05.000 But he hit it in motion.
00:51:06.000 I mean, it was a great shot.
00:51:07.000 That's crazy.
00:51:08.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.99
00:51:08.000 I wonder what the fuck that would be. 0.99
00:51:09.000 I don't know what it was. 0.99
00:51:10.000 I'll have to ask him.
00:51:11.000 A big bird in North America. 1.00
00:51:13.000 Did he shoot a fucking eagle? 1.00
00:51:15.000 Did he shoot pelicans? 1.00
00:51:17.000 It definitely wasn't an eagle.
00:51:18.000 What the hell is he doing, man?
00:51:21.000 Yeah, I was reading something about the goose problem, about how the goose population has exploded because of farmlands, and that they literally don't know what to do with the certain population of different kinds of geese that are flying into this country from Canada.
00:51:40.000 It's funny you say this.
00:51:41.000 I was in Toronto three weeks ago, which is where I'm from, though I don't go often.
00:51:47.000 I was with my brother, and we were up taking the kids to some place.
00:51:52.000 Sure enough, we're walking from one area to the other, and these geese come up, and they kind of start posturing.
00:51:59.000 I'm thinking... 1.00
00:52:01.000 What the fuck? 1.00
00:52:02.000 And my brother's like, get moving. 1.00
00:52:04.000 Like, clearly one of us is near one of their eggs.
00:52:07.000 And I was like, what?
00:52:08.000 He's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:09.000 He goes, these are the most aggressive creatures.
00:52:11.000 And they're big.
00:52:13.000 Yeah, they're pretty big.
00:52:14.000 So I was like, fair enough.
00:52:15.000 Let's just keep walking.
00:52:16.000 Don't make eye contact.
00:52:18.000 They're big, but you can cook them. 1.00
00:52:19.000 So fuck them. 1.00
00:52:22.000 Get out of here. 1.00
00:52:23.000 Goddamn geese. 1.00
00:52:24.000 Yeah, there's a certain type of geese that they call ribeye in the sky. 0.99
00:52:31.000 Because they have a delicious red meat to them.
00:52:35.000 What is that called? 1.00
00:52:36.000 Which fucking... 1.00
00:52:37.000 God damn it. 1.00
00:52:39.000 But they're very plentiful in Texas. 0.99
00:52:42.000 Yeah, they hunt them in Texas.
00:52:45.000 What's the meat like?
00:52:46.000 Is it marbled?
00:52:47.000 It looks like a ribeye.
00:52:48.000 It's crazy.
00:52:49.000 Sandhill crane.
00:52:50.000 Thank you.
00:52:50.000 Sandhill crane.
00:52:51.000 That's what it is.
00:52:51.000 Is there anything you don't know?
00:52:53.000 He's a fucking wizard with the Google, man. 0.99
00:52:56.000 With Google, everyone is a wizard, but Jamie's an extra wizard. 1.00
00:53:00.000 He's really good at it.
00:53:01.000 He's a ninja.
00:53:02.000 Yeah, but that is what they call them, so it's actually a common phrase, because I've had friends that say it might be the most delicious meat in the world. 0.99
00:53:10.000 I mean, it tastes like a wagyu ribeye, and it's flying around, and you can shoot, like, fucking 10 a day. 0.99
00:53:20.000 Yeah. 0.99
00:53:21.000 It's crazy.
00:53:22.000 I have friends that hunt these things.
00:53:24.000 And they're mostly in Texas?
00:53:26.000 I don't know where they are, but my friends who have hunted them, hunted them in Texas.
00:53:30.000 I mean, I'm sure they fly all across the country.
00:53:33.000 Yeah, it's a crane.
00:53:34.000 It's not a goose.
00:53:35.000 Yeah, I've only been bird hunting twice.
00:53:38.000 I went once with Anthony Bourdain for his TV show.
00:53:43.000 We hunted pheasants.
00:53:44.000 And he shot one, and we cooked it and ate it.
00:53:47.000 That was fun. 0.81
00:53:48.000 I shot at one and missed.
00:53:49.000 And then I shot a turkey once, which is pretty interesting.
00:53:52.000 Wild turkeys.
00:53:53.000 Very good.
00:53:54.000 Very delicious.
00:53:55.000 But...
00:53:59.000 I like mammals.
00:54:01.000 I like eating mammals.
00:54:02.000 I prefer red meat.
00:54:05.000 I think it's just better for you.
00:54:07.000 I think it's more nutritious.
00:54:08.000 It's more exhilarating.
00:54:10.000 There's something about the meat itself.
00:54:13.000 It tastes better.
00:54:14.000 I haven't met too many foods I don't like.
00:54:17.000 Really?
00:54:18.000 Well, with the kind of exercise that you do, I'm sure you almost have a voracious appetite.
00:54:24.000 I mean, I do, but nothing like what I used to do.
00:54:27.000 I fast pretty much every day.
00:54:29.000 Are you doing 16 hours?
00:54:31.000 What are you doing?
00:54:32.000 It depends.
00:54:33.000 I split my time between New York and California.
00:54:35.000 When I'm in New York, it's absolutely one meal a day, no ifs, ands, or buts, because the schedule is such that I'm seeing patients in the morning and afternoon, and I don't want to do...
00:54:44.000 I don't want to waste time to eat.
00:54:46.000 What are you doctoring?
00:54:48.000 That's a good question.
00:54:49.000 I mean, I trained as a surgeon and did cancer surgery, but my practice is based on longevity.
00:54:56.000 So it's sort of, how do you apply...
00:54:59.000 Nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress management, endocrinology, lipidology, supplements, hormones, all that stuff.
00:55:06.000 Like how do you engineer how to make somebody live longer is my clinical interest.
00:55:12.000 So yeah, so in New York I eat one meal a day.
00:55:15.000 So it's basically like a 22-hour fasting window and then I'm feeding within a two-hour window.
00:55:19.000 Wow.
00:55:20.000 When I'm here...
00:55:22.000 It's about the same.
00:55:22.000 Well, I mean, yesterday and today it's the same.
00:55:24.000 Like, you know, today has just been kind of a busy day.
00:55:27.000 You know, I won't eat till dinner tonight.
00:55:29.000 But my short fast would be 16 hours where I would eat.
00:55:33.000 That's a short fast.
00:55:34.000 That would be a short fast.
00:55:34.000 That's a long one for me.
00:55:36.000 Really?
00:55:36.000 Yeah.
00:55:37.000 Dude, you got to get in touch with your evolutionary self.
00:55:40.000 I had this discussion with a friend this morning because he was saying to me he can't do 16 hours. 1.00
00:55:44.000 Well, he's a pussy. 1.00
00:55:45.000 No, and I was like, no, I said he's a pussy. 1.00
00:55:47.000 You just told him. 1.00
00:55:48.000 No, but I said, you got to understand if our ancestors couldn't function when they were hungry, we wouldn't be here.
00:55:55.000 So it's not just that a short-term adaptation to starvation is necessary.
00:56:01.000 It's probably beneficial.
00:56:03.000 In other words, during these short periods of deprivation of food, we get just a little bit more epinephrine and norepinephrine.
00:56:11.000 We just get a little bit sharper, a little bit better.
00:56:14.000 I can't even remember what it's like to eat three meals a day.
00:56:18.000 It's been so long.
00:56:19.000 Really?
00:56:19.000 Yeah.
00:56:19.000 How long have you been doing this?
00:56:22.000 I mean, I've been doing crazy shit for 10 years, nutritional-wise. 0.71
00:56:26.000 Like, I spent three years in ketosis, where it was actually one day I was in ketosis for three years. 0.97
00:56:33.000 Lots of fasting, but I think intermittent fasting or time-restricted feeding, probably at least five years.
00:56:40.000 And for people listening, what are the benefits of that?
00:56:44.000 Well, I mean, if we're going to get really technical, we have to be clear that I think a lot of the benefits are overstated.
00:56:49.000 And a lot of the benefits are things that we've only studied in animals.
00:56:52.000 So there's a guy named Sachin Panda at the Salk Institute in San Diego, who's, I think, one of the world's experts on time-restricted feeding.
00:57:01.000 For example, a 16-hour fast in a mouse produces unbelievable results.
00:57:06.000 If you take a group of certain types of mice or strains of rats or other rodents and you, in a 24-hour period, deprive them of any nutrient for 16 hours but then for 8 hours let them eat whatever the hell they want, they can't gain weight.
00:57:19.000 So – and the reason we think is that it – once you give a long enough period of time when the animal can ramp up its – like the enzymes in the liver that are responsible for fat oxidation, I mean they just basically become fat – I hate that term,
00:57:35.000 fat-burning machine.
00:57:36.000 It's so overused.
00:57:37.000 But that's – they basically just become unbelievably efficient at metabolizing fat.
00:57:40.000 So – We have to be careful, though, when we extrapolate that because you and I have a very different metabolism than a mouse.
00:57:48.000 Like, a 16-hour fast to a mouse is much longer than it is to us.
00:57:52.000 So I don't know if those benefits would extend.
00:57:55.000 Also, it's not entirely clear that time-restricted feeding will produce the longevity benefit that we see in other sort of fasting or fasting-mimicking types of diets.
00:58:05.000 So for me, what it comes down to is, I mean, Honestly, it's just an easier way.
00:58:11.000 It gives me a much more liberty with what I eat during my feeding window.
00:58:14.000 I don't have to be nearly as restrictive when I'm feeding if I have that period off, just in terms of my physiologic response.
00:58:22.000 Secondly, there's a convenience thing.
00:58:23.000 I kind of hate being tethered to eat.
00:58:27.000 I like knowing that, hey, if I get into a pinch, I don't have to eat right now. 0.99
00:58:31.000 If I'm sitting on the airplane and they're serving dog shit, I don't have to eat. 0.99
00:58:35.000 I can wait another five hours until I eat. 0.99
00:58:40.000 I also just feel much more steady in my energy levels.
00:58:44.000 I kind of vaguely remember like 10 years ago when I was kind of like eating a normal diet how...
00:58:52.000 I always had this lull in energy after lunch.
00:58:54.000 There was the post-lunch, pre-dinner, I just don't feel good.
00:59:00.000 Not that I feel bad, but I'm not sharp.
00:59:03.000 I'm not in my A game.
00:59:04.000 And I don't even remember what that feels like anymore, which is not to say I feel great all the time, but I definitely don't have that vacillating energy level.
00:59:12.000 Yeah, I've said that to people when I eliminated most carbs from my diet.
00:59:16.000 You know, and I have a friend of mine who talked to his trainer about that. 0.95
00:59:19.000 His trainer was like, you're crazy. 0.98
00:59:20.000 Eat bread. 0.99
00:59:21.000 Eat pasta.
00:59:22.000 Don't listen to him.
00:59:22.000 I'm like, no, don't listen to him.
00:59:24.000 Like, just Google it. 0.99
00:59:26.000 That stuff's fucking terrible for you. 0.99
00:59:27.000 If you want to eat carbohydrates, get it from fruits. 0.99
00:59:30.000 You know, get it from some natural sources. 0.99
00:59:32.000 But if you have a trainer that's telling you to eat bread, get a new fucking trainer. 0.98
00:59:37.000 It's nothing wrong with eating if you want to occasionally and in small doses. 0.98
00:59:43.000 But when I eliminated most of that stuff from my diet, I felt the exact same thing.
00:59:47.000 I felt that midday nap desire go away.
00:59:52.000 And just the fogginess about it. 0.87
00:59:53.000 At the end of the day, you're like, oh god, I'm fucking tired.
00:59:56.000 And then I'd have to drink a cup of coffee to get ramped back up again. 0.88
00:59:59.000 And there's this never-ending cycle of having this insulin spike and then this crash.
01:00:05.000 And that is, that's from carbohydrates. 0.97
01:00:08.000 It's from refined carbohydrates and, you know, having too much fucking sugar in your body and everybody does it. 0.98
01:00:14.000 It's like, look around. 0.97
01:00:15.000 So this will be funny for your, so Google my name and just put like Peter Atiyah Fat.
01:00:22.000 And you're going to see a picture of me when I was a swimmer.
01:00:24.000 Because all this time we were talking about me swimming, you're assuming like I'm a fit dude.
01:00:29.000 I was a fit but fat dude.
01:00:31.000 Fit but fat.
01:00:31.000 Fit but totally fat.
01:00:33.000 What were you eating?
01:00:34.000 Oh, nonstop carbs.
01:00:35.000 Look, there I am.
01:00:36.000 See on the left there.
01:00:37.000 Well, I wouldn't say you were fat. 0.86
01:00:39.000 I would say you got a little punch on you.
01:00:42.000 I don't know.
01:00:42.000 Wait, wait.
01:00:43.000 There's another picture after I swam.
01:00:45.000 Oh, across Lake Tahoe.
01:00:47.000 Go to that one right there.
01:00:48.000 Yeah.
01:00:50.000 Got a little gut there, fella.
01:00:51.000 Yeah, I don't know.
01:00:52.000 It's like you're boozing it up.
01:00:53.000 Yeah.
01:00:53.000 But it's also the way you're sitting down.
01:00:55.000 If you stood up and sucked it in for a picture on Instagram, it might look okay. 0.66
01:00:59.000 I don't know.
01:01:00.000 I was definitely, you know, probably what, maybe 30 pounds heavier.
01:01:05.000 Wow.
01:01:05.000 But, you know, body fat was much greater.
01:01:07.000 And what were you eating?
01:01:08.000 Oh, I mean, I probably went through three or four bottles of Powerade a day because, you know, you're training all day.
01:01:14.000 And, you know, every post-workout was a carb refeed.
01:01:18.000 And so you're in sort of this vicious, glycogen-dependent state.
01:01:22.000 Yeah.
01:01:24.000 It's crazy that there's so many folks out there that are living their life that don't even understand that this is a process they're going through.
01:01:31.000 They just think this is eating and exercise.
01:01:34.000 This is what happens.
01:01:36.000 But it's not.
01:01:37.000 Your body, if you cut that off, push it away, enter into a completely different food source.
01:01:45.000 Just change the way you eat.
01:01:48.000 Your body will change and that that just that concept the people that sounds like horseshit It sounds like what are you saying?
01:01:56.000 You you're what are you offering some miracle cure you know, I'm saying You will change the dimension of life that you operate in it would change because you won't be the same person You won't like who you are is dependent upon a lot of things But one of them is how much energy you have how you feel whether you're crashing If you change the way you eat,
01:02:16.000 you change the energy you have.
01:02:18.000 You change the way you feel.
01:02:19.000 It'll change your behavior.
01:02:21.000 It'll change your choices.
01:02:22.000 It'll change your ambitions.
01:02:24.000 It'll change your potential.
01:02:26.000 I mean, there's so many things that will change.
01:02:29.000 But there's an interesting question, which I spend some time thinking about, and I've sort of accepted the fact that we might not know the answer, which is when I was growing up, I was exercising like crazy.
01:02:40.000 Not as much as I was when I was swimming, but...
01:02:43.000 I mean, sorry, more than I was when I was swimming.
01:02:45.000 But I ate...
01:02:47.000 Like, I had the world's worst diet growing up.
01:02:50.000 So I would eat...
01:02:51.000 Breakfast was a bowl of...
01:02:53.000 Like a box of cereal.
01:02:55.000 So I'd take, like, one of these Tupperware bowls that was this big and fill it with a full box.
01:02:58.000 So each day I would have just a box of Cocoa Puffs or whatever I would start the day with.
01:03:02.000 And then lunch was...
01:03:04.000 A full loaf of bread, which was seven sandwiches, plus a plate of fries, plus a big tub of like a two-liter jug of orange juice.
01:03:12.000 But I was training six hours a day, right?
01:03:15.000 So I would run 10 miles in the morning, in the gym, boxing. 1.00
01:03:20.000 You know what that shit's like. 0.99
01:03:21.000 I mean, it's ridiculously energy expending. 1.00
01:03:24.000 But the point is, I had a hard time holding my weight.
01:03:27.000 I mean, I was a middleweight.
01:03:29.000 160?
01:03:30.000 Walked around at 158. Who walks around below their fight weight?
01:03:34.000 So, you know, my waist was 28 inches.
01:03:37.000 I was probably 4.5% body fat.
01:03:39.000 And I was eating anything and everything you could put in front of me. 0.99
01:03:44.000 And then something happened in medical school where that shit just stopped. 0.98
01:03:48.000 I wasn't even eating as badly at the time, but all of a sudden, the metabolic adaptation just vanished. 0.99
01:03:57.000 I wish someone could study this, meaning you would have to take a group of individuals and do muscle and fat biopsies over the course of their life, or at least during this window when we think this is happening.
01:04:11.000 Many of my patients or just even friends, like it seems that this happens kind of in your 30s if you're a guy.
01:04:17.000 For women, it's harder for me to tell because I think pregnancy can interfere with this. 1.00
01:04:23.000 So sometimes we get a bit of a skewed answer.
01:04:25.000 But if I had to hypothesize, I think that we go from having a lot of lipoprotein lipase on muscle cells and not much on fat cells to the reverse.
01:04:36.000 So when I was 16 and invincible, My muscles had a lot of this enzyme, LPL, on it that could just absolutely take whatever I was throwing at them and churn it into energy for the muscle, whereas when that LPL exists on a fat cell,
01:04:53.000 you're basically just going to store more fat.
01:04:56.000 And now, why that would happen over time, I mean, we could guess reasons, but I'd love to know if that's the case.
01:05:02.000 Because I still can't really figure out, like, why is it today I am so carbohydrate sensitive when there was a day when I could eat...
01:05:11.000 I was probably eating 7,000 or 8,000 calories a day, of which 80% were probably carbohydrates when I was growing up and was lean and mean.
01:05:20.000 Did you experience a crash at all, like post-afternoon crash, post-lunch crash?
01:05:24.000 That's a good question.
01:05:26.000 Back then, I don't think I did that much back in the day, which would also speak to the idea of better fuel partitioning.
01:05:34.000 Fuel partitioning meaning this sort of technical term for where your body knows to go to excess energy.
01:05:40.000 Are you going to glycogen?
01:05:41.000 Are you going to the fat?
01:05:43.000 And then where are you storing energy?
01:05:45.000 So I suspect I was just better at fuel partitioning as a kid, which I'm sure most of us were.
01:05:52.000 Anyway, it's kind of...
01:05:53.000 Of course, the real question, the reason we care about this is, like, what could you do about it, right?
01:05:57.000 Like, what...
01:05:59.000 For example, that's probably one of the reasons why testosterone, as testosterone goes down, you're going to get fatter, all things equal.
01:06:07.000 And part of the reason is testosterone upregulates LPL and hormone-sensitive lipase and all of these other enzymes in the direction of making you leaner versus fatter.
01:06:18.000 But I just don't think that that's enough of it.
01:06:21.000 I think there's something else that's going on that's triggering that decline.
01:06:26.000 So for you with this 22-hour window of not eating, what do you think the benefits are other than your energy and slight spikes in norepinephrine and some other hormones?
01:06:38.000 Well, I don't think there's sufficient evidence at this point in time that time-restricted feeding is going to impact my longevity.
01:06:44.000 So I think that's the big claim.
01:06:47.000 What is the claim?
01:06:48.000 What are they saying?
01:06:49.000 Oh, I mean, I think the claim would be that fasting mimicry, which could be, you know, like what, say, Walter Longo talks about where you do a five-day hypocaloric diet of 750 to 1,000 calories a day for five days, followed by 25 days of ad libitum feeding,
01:07:04.000 meaning eat whatever the hell you want.
01:07:07.000 In terms of total caloric content, the claim is, well, that's going to enhance longevity.
01:07:13.000 Or doing a 16-8 or 18-6 is going to enhance lifespan.
01:07:18.000 So just to take a step back, I am only aware of...
01:07:25.000 Three things that have universally extended lifespan across all model organisms.
01:07:31.000 So if you think of like all eukaryotes, right?
01:07:33.000 If you go from yeast to worms to flies to mammals, the only things that uniformly extend life or almost uniformly is caloric restriction and or dietary restriction.
01:07:45.000 So total reduction in calories during the lifetime and or reduction of certain subsets of those calories.
01:07:51.000 So there's a super famous experiment that was done Actually, if anyone's interested, I wrote about it.
01:07:57.000 It's on my blog somewhere.
01:07:58.000 But it's basically the best experiment ever done in caloric restriction was between monkeys.
01:08:03.000 And there was a group at the NIH and a group at the University of Wisconsin.
01:08:06.000 And it was like a 19-year experiment or something like that.
01:08:08.000 So you could really study the impact of caloric restriction over these things.
01:08:12.000 And that experiment showed us that caloric restriction extended lifespan if you had a really shitty diet.
01:08:18.000 And it did not extend lifespan if you had a really good diet.
01:08:22.000 It's counterintuitive, but it also spoke to the idea that dietary restriction probably mattered.
01:08:27.000 So in other words, if you're eating a regular diet of McDonald's every day, and then we put your counterpart eating 70% of McDonald's every day, that's going to move the needle.
01:08:38.000 But in the Wisconsin, in the NIH experiment, when you took the monkeys that were eating kind of It wasn't their natural food, but it was less horrible food.
01:08:48.000 The caloric restriction did not extend lifespan.
01:08:51.000 So that threw a wrench in everyone's understanding of caloric restriction.
01:08:55.000 And there are certain strains of mice that also don't seem to be enhanced in terms of lifespan, meaning just time on Earth.
01:09:02.000 But for the most part, nutrient deprivation pretty ubiquitously extends life.
01:09:09.000 The second thing that uniformly extends life across this is a drug called rapamycin, which is kind of like my favorite drug in the whole world.
01:09:18.000 I mean, meaning it's like, I think it's the most important drug in terms of this space, not necessarily because it's a drug that we'll all be taking, though I do believe that is the case, but more importantly because of what it's taught us about the nutrient-sensing pathway and its target, which is this protein called TOR,
01:09:34.000 the target of rapamycin, or mTOR, as you've probably heard of it, is a mechanistic target of rapamycin.
01:09:39.000 And rapamycin inhibits that.
01:09:42.000 Now, it's a bit complicated because there's two variants of it.
01:09:44.000 There's something called mTOR complex 1 and mTOR complex 2. And if you take rapamycin day in and day out every day, which, for example, transplant patients do, it's an immune suppressant.
01:09:55.000 That doesn't seem to really extend lifespan.
01:09:57.000 But if you take it in a pulsatile way, you selectively get this mTORC1 inhibition without the mTORC2 inhibition.
01:10:04.000 That seems to produce longevity big time.
01:10:06.000 And how does that work?
01:10:07.000 How would you take it selectively?
01:10:10.000 Well, this is sort of one of my main clinical interests because I obviously am waiting for the day when I can start taking it and ultimately feel that it's safe enough that I could give it to patients.
01:10:24.000 If I'm extrapolating from all of the best data out there, so that's looking at the work that's come out of a guy named David Sabatini's lab.
01:10:30.000 David's a guy at MIT. He's a professor.
01:10:33.000 He's actually the guy that when he was a medical student, I'm doing his PhD in 1994 actually discovered how rapamycin works in mammals.
01:10:41.000 He's actually the guy that coined mechanistic target of rapamycin mTORC as a name.
01:10:47.000 And so now whatever we are almost 25 years later, you know, he's still running the powerhouse lab that understands it.
01:10:54.000 So if you look at all of the literature that's coming out of their lab, Coupled with a guy named Matt Caberlin at the University of Washington, who's doing rapamycin studies in dogs, along with the work done by someone named Joan Manick, who was at the time at Novartis, is now at a company called Restore Bio,
01:11:11.000 and a few other people.
01:11:13.000 My intuition is that somewhere between two to six milligrams every five to seven days is probably the sweet spot.
01:11:22.000 But, you know, am I confident enough in that to say that we should all be taking it?
01:11:27.000 Not yet.
01:11:27.000 There's a couple things that, like, I want to be able to measure before we do that.
01:11:33.000 But, you know, in the animal data, this stuff's remarkable.
01:11:38.000 If you look at Matt Caberlin's dog data, it's remarkable.
01:11:41.000 Like, what are they doing with it?
01:11:43.000 Well, so you own a dog, you know this, right?
01:11:45.000 I mean, if you look at outside of euthanasia or accidents, how do dogs die?
01:11:49.000 They basically die of cancer and heart, and they get dilated cardiomyopathy.
01:11:52.000 So it's a different type of heart disease than humans get.
01:11:54.000 They don't get atherosclerotic disease, they get heart failure.
01:11:57.000 Their hearts just get too, too, too big in their ejection fraction, which is the amount of blood, the percentage of blood that leaves the ventricular chamber with every contraction.
01:12:06.000 As that number goes down, bad things happen.
01:12:09.000 Now, to put that in perspective, you and I sitting here, a couple of normal fit dudes, we probably have a resting ejection fraction of 60%.
01:12:16.000 And if, like, we went out there and, like, killed it and worked out as hard as we could at peak, we might get that up to 80, 85% ejection fraction.
01:12:25.000 So once the ejection fraction gets below 30%, you know, a person starts to become very symptomatic.
01:12:33.000 Well, Matt took these dogs that had low ejection fractions to begin with, and I forget what the exact number was, but it might have been like below 40% or below 30%.
01:12:43.000 We put them on rapamycin for 12 weeks and in just 12 weeks saw an absolute 10% improvement.
01:12:50.000 So that means that's not going from 30 to 33. That's going from 30 to 40% EF improvement.
01:12:57.000 In other words, it's hard to measure an effect in 12 weeks of a drug.
01:13:02.000 And certainly you're not going to be able to measure a longevity impact over that.
01:13:05.000 So much of the study that's being done with this is looking at surrogate markers that we assume Would portend longevity.
01:13:13.000 So Matt's work focusing on the ejection fraction, Mannick's work was focused on immune response, which again was...
01:13:21.000 So this was the turning point for me.
01:13:22.000 This was like December of 2014 was like when everything in my professional world shifted in terms of my interest towards like rapamycin is the thing I want to know everything about because...
01:13:35.000 When I was a surgical resident, we used to give rapamycin out like it was cotton candy to all the transplant patients.
01:13:40.000 It was an amazing drug that revolutionized transplant physiology because it had far fewer side effects than massive doses of prednisone and things that we used to have to give patients.
01:13:51.000 Now you could give them much less prednisone and you could give them rapamycin or cousins of rapamycin like FK506. And what you're doing with that stuff is you're suppressing the immune system so the body doesn't reject the organ?
01:14:01.000 Exactly.
01:14:02.000 Now, when you do that, does that leave them susceptible to illness or disease?
01:14:06.000 It does.
01:14:06.000 Would that be the case with rapamycin in person taking it for longevity?
01:14:10.000 And that's the million-dollar question.
01:14:12.000 And so I think in a moment, I'll tell you the story of how rapamycin came to be because I think it's the most interesting story in biology, certainly in the last 25, 30 years.
01:14:22.000 But when it was approved in 1999 by the FDA, it was for this indication.
01:14:27.000 It was an immune suppressant.
01:14:29.000 It was 10 years before anybody...
01:14:35.000 We're good to go.
01:14:55.000 Manik's group published this paper, which they did in a group of about 320 65-year-olds-ish.
01:15:03.000 So they put them into four groups.
01:15:05.000 There was a placebo group.
01:15:07.000 There was a group that got—and it wasn't actually rapamycin.
01:15:10.000 It was everolimus, which is an analog of rapamycin.
01:15:12.000 It's basically the same drug.
01:15:13.000 So there was a group that got one milligram every single day, five milligrams once a week, 20 milligrams once a week.
01:15:21.000 They did this for something like 8 to 12 weeks and then they washed out, meaning they got nothing for 8 to 12 weeks and then they were hit with a flu vaccine and then the scientists measured the immune response, doing these really complicated assays where you look at T cell function.
01:15:36.000 So relative to the placebo, paradoxically, all groups, and I say paradoxically because even the group that got one milligram once a day, all saw an increase in immunity, which is a good thing.
01:15:47.000 But the 5 and 20 group saw an even bigger response.
01:15:51.000 The people who just got 5 once a week or 20 once a week saw an even bigger response.
01:15:55.000 But the group that took 20 once a week had more side effects.
01:15:58.000 And the biggest side effect of rapamycin acutely is these awful, awful mouth sores called apthos ulcers.
01:16:04.000 Oof.
01:16:05.000 They're nasty. 0.98
01:16:05.000 They're brutal. 0.98
01:16:25.000 So, once I had one so bad that I was like, this was when I was in residency and I was like, it was just driving me nuts.
01:16:30.000 So I went to the OR and I got a bunch of lidocaine, which is a local anesthetic, and I went into the call room and I just grabbed my tongue and just injected like lidocaine in it.
01:16:38.000 And just when I did that, somebody walked in and I've got like blood dripping down from my mouth and I've got a needle in my mouth and they're like, and I'm like, no, no, no, it's not what you think.
01:16:46.000 It's not what you think.
01:16:47.000 I swear, it's lidocaine.
01:16:49.000 They're like, dude.
01:16:51.000 We got you to help.
01:16:54.000 We're support groups for people like you. 0.97
01:16:56.000 Lidocaine is disgusting.
01:16:57.000 I had my deviated septum fixed and they shoved the lidocaine up there.
01:17:02.000 It's harsh stuff.
01:17:04.000 And the rest of the day, I just felt like...
01:17:14.000 It's a guy named William Stuart Halstead, who was so near and dear to my heart because he was the founding surgeon at Johns Hopkins.
01:17:26.000 And one of the original four horsemen, so the four main physicians that basically have shaped medicine in this country, all started out at Hopkins.
01:17:34.000 Osler in medicine, Hopkins in surgery, and two other guys, Walsh, and I'm blanking on it.
01:17:39.000 Kelly was the third one.
01:17:42.000 And he basically figured out...
01:17:45.000 Because you've got to remember, like, there was a day when surgery was staggeringly barbaric.
01:17:50.000 Like, prior to ether, surgery was like...
01:17:55.000 All right, can you hold them down?
01:17:57.000 Like gag them, get them drunk, gag them, and like we're going to do our thing, right? 0.97
01:18:01.000 Yeah, it's just crazy. 1.00
01:18:04.000 So, God, I used to know all of this shit. 0.96
01:18:06.000 I don't remember any of the exact dates anymore. 0.96
01:18:08.000 But it was like kind of like mid-1800s to late-1800s when up at Massachusetts General Hospital, I forget the name of who it was, but someone basically came up with ether.
01:18:19.000 So ether became the first form of anesthetic.
01:18:22.000 But, you know, you were sort of knocking people out.
01:18:24.000 Well, it was, you know, fast forward probably 20, 30 years when Halstead figured out that this thing called cocaine could provide local anesthetic.
01:18:31.000 So he began experimenting with like crazy and, of course, in the process became like patently addicted to it.
01:18:37.000 So you have this entire generation of surgeons at Hopkins from that early era that were completely coke addicted.
01:18:44.000 So Halstead and all of his first generation of residents.
01:18:47.000 Wow.
01:18:48.000 And then, of course, from that, we got lidocaine, bupivacaine, all of these things that don't have the same properties.
01:18:55.000 But to this day, cocaine is still used.
01:18:58.000 And most people don't realize it, but cocaine is a Schedule II drug, meaning it actually has a medical application, unlike heroin, which is Schedule I in the DEA. And marijuana.
01:19:06.000 That's right.
01:19:07.000 But cocaine is Schedule II, and it is still used in some ENT surgery because it has some favorable properties over even lidocaine and bupivacaine for nasal surgery.
01:19:17.000 Did you know that they still use cocoa leaves for flavor in coca-cola?
01:19:21.000 They actually extract the cocaine from it, use the cocoa leaves, and the cocaine goes to medical purposes.
01:19:26.000 I didn't know that.
01:19:27.000 I had cocoa tea for my first time this summer, like real...
01:19:31.000 Coco de latte.
01:19:32.000 But like brought up from...
01:19:33.000 De mate.
01:19:33.000 Mate de cocoa, that's what it is.
01:19:35.000 Oh.
01:19:35.000 Yeah, it's great.
01:19:36.000 I could not get enough of that stuff. 0.99
01:19:38.000 You can't shut the fuck up on it though. 0.99
01:19:40.000 It's a weird sort of high. 0.99
01:19:41.000 It's a very strange thing.
01:19:43.000 It's a very talkative sort of high.
01:19:45.000 I thought it was just, everything about it was just such a great taste.
01:19:48.000 You ever chewed the leaves?
01:19:48.000 You ever done that, like in Peru?
01:19:50.000 No, no.
01:19:50.000 I've never done it either, but apparently it's really interesting.
01:19:53.000 It's like a coffee sort of a thing, and it's got flavonoids.
01:19:58.000 It's actually probably healthy for you.
01:20:01.000 I just love plants in general.
01:20:03.000 We think of the coca leaves as producing cocaine.
01:20:07.000 Cocaine we think of as inherently negative.
01:20:09.000 But the leaf itself, if you just don't extract it, it's actually really good for you.
01:20:14.000 Well, that's the thing.
01:20:16.000 Even thinking about the difference between eating fruit versus eating Oreos.
01:20:21.000 A scoop of sugar.
01:20:23.000 Nature's pretty good at regulating how fast this stuff...
01:20:27.000 So in the case of fruit, how quickly does fructose hit your liver?
01:20:31.000 There's a sort of governor built into it if you're eating raspberries.
01:20:34.000 Like, could you get non-alcoholic fatty liver disease from eating enough raspberries?
01:20:38.000 Yeah, probably.
01:20:39.000 You'd have to go crazy.
01:20:40.000 Yeah, you need to become a full-time job.
01:20:43.000 Or you could just drink a giant gallon of orange juice every day.
01:20:46.000 Right.
01:20:46.000 That would do it.
01:20:47.000 That would do it.
01:20:48.000 It would be a lot quicker, yeah.
01:20:49.000 Because most people think of fresh-squeezed orange juice as being, oh, you're eating healthy.
01:20:54.000 Yeah.
01:20:54.000 Look at you over there with your fresh squeezed orange juice.
01:20:56.000 Yeah, you're juicing.
01:20:57.000 It's totally healthy.
01:20:57.000 Super healthy.
01:20:59.000 Meanwhile, you're just drinking a big old glass of sugar.
01:21:02.000 Literally, your body doesn't know the difference between that and a Coca-Cola.
01:21:06.000 Very little difference between the two, unfortunately.
01:21:08.000 Well, Coca-Cola's got some other stuff in there, caffeine.
01:21:10.000 But other than that, just the sugar itself.
01:21:13.000 Yeah, your liver would have a hard time telling the difference.
01:21:15.000 So crazy.
01:21:16.000 Most people would think a glass of orange juice at breakfast is a healthy choice.
01:21:22.000 No.
01:21:22.000 No.
01:21:23.000 It's a glass of sugar.
01:21:24.000 Have a Mountain Dew.
01:21:25.000 Yeah.
01:21:25.000 Might be better.
01:21:27.000 Might get more shit done. 0.99
01:21:28.000 Yeah. 0.99
01:21:30.000 So the dosage of 1, 5, and 20. So...
01:21:35.000 So that study, I remember reading that and thinking, okay, so if you looked at that study, you realized if you're going to be in the placebo, the one a day, the five once a week, or the 20 once a week, the five once a week was the way to go.
01:21:47.000 That's the sweet spot.
01:21:48.000 That's right.
01:21:48.000 You got all the benefit of 20, more benefit than one, and the fewest side effects.
01:21:53.000 And how long is this study?
01:21:55.000 That was an eight-week intervention with an eight-week washout was enough to see the enhanced immunity.
01:22:01.000 Do you think that a longer-term study is necessary to see, like, whether or not the body adapts?
01:22:07.000 Yeah, absolutely.
01:22:08.000 I mean, all this stuff is in its infancy.
01:22:10.000 Now, my shtick is, so right now, rapamycin's off patent, right?
01:22:16.000 So the drug was approved in 99 by the FDA, but this is after an unbelievable, amazing story of, like, how, you know, this drug almost got lost forever, right?
01:22:28.000 So there's no economic incentive for a company to figure out how to do this thing with rapamycin.
01:22:35.000 And even Everolimus, I think ultimately Novartis, and I'm saying this with no actual knowledge other than just my own speculation, but I suspect Novartis was like...
01:22:43.000 Well, you know, we're not going to play this game just with Everolimus, and that's, I think, why it probably spun into this other company, RestoreBio, to sort of combine it with other agents.
01:22:55.000 But at an end of one level, what I'm kind of interested in doing is, you know, using myself as a guinea pig to start to measure the benefits of it, because...
01:23:07.000 My hypothesis is three things have to be true if rapamycin is working.
01:23:11.000 Now, I could be wrong, but this is my hypothesis and this is what I test with other scientists is if you are taking rapamycin at the right dose, So assume you're not getting all the nasty side effects.
01:23:24.000 You're not getting the mouth sores and stuff like that.
01:23:26.000 Three things have to get better.
01:23:28.000 One, your glucose metabolism should at least get no worse, but potentially better.
01:23:33.000 I suspect it's a function of where you start.
01:23:35.000 So there is one doctor in New York who has like a rapamycin practice.
01:23:39.000 I think he's in...
01:23:42.000 I think he's in the Bronx, actually.
01:23:44.000 And I've talked to him a bunch, and when he started it himself, he said, like, the improvements were remarkable just in terms of glucose metabolism.
01:23:54.000 But I think he was starting at a pretty bad spot.
01:23:56.000 But if you or I took it, we might not notice much getting better, but we definitely should not get worse.
01:24:02.000 So that's easy to measure clinically.
01:24:04.000 You do an oral glucose tolerance test would give you that answer.
01:24:07.000 But two things should get significantly better.
01:24:10.000 The first is immune function should get better, not worse.
01:24:13.000 There is no clinical way to measure that.
01:24:16.000 But we do know how to measure it.
01:24:18.000 I mean, when I was doing my postdoc, it was in an immunology lab.
01:24:21.000 Like, I know how to do that assay.
01:24:23.000 I just don't have, like, a million dollars worth of equipment to measure it.
01:24:26.000 What is the difference in the dosage, even in the high end, at 20 versus what you would give someone if they got a liver transplant?
01:24:33.000 Kidney transplant?
01:24:33.000 Yeah.
01:24:33.000 Yeah.
01:24:33.000 Typical transplant dose would have been like two, three milligrams every day.
01:24:38.000 Okay, so it's quite a bit different.
01:24:40.000 It is, and it's different on two levels because, you know, when you're giving it every day at a lower dose, you still end up producing tissue levels that might even be comparable to where that person was getting with the spike of 20. And in general, this isn't always true,
01:24:56.000 but in general, in pharmacology, certain side effects are the result of the Nader dose, and certain side effects are the result of the peak dose.
01:25:04.000 So with every drug, you kind of have to understand this a little bit.
01:25:07.000 But going back to this rapamycin thing, the third thing that has to be true, in my opinion, I could be full of shit, but I think the third thing that has to be true if you're taking the right dose is you need to see an uptick in autophagy.
01:25:19.000 And so just as if you...
01:25:21.000 What does that mean?
01:25:22.000 Autophagy is this process where the body, cells start eating themselves.
01:25:26.000 So it's kind of like a programmed cell death, although technically we reserve that term for something called apoptosis.
01:25:32.000 But when you're fasting, what's...
01:25:35.000 Why would fasting produce a benefit?
01:25:37.000 And I think the most logical explanation is enhanced autophagy.
01:25:41.000 So the body basically has to prioritize in the absence of nutrients.
01:25:45.000 The underperforming cells are basically told, eat yourself.
01:25:49.000 And we can recycle some of your components.
01:25:52.000 Maybe this mitochondria is worth saving.
01:25:53.000 This Golgi apparatus is worth saving.
01:25:55.000 And then we selectively, when we refeed, repopulate the better cells.
01:26:00.000 And in many ways, I think rapamycin can do that in a pill.
01:26:03.000 So the problem is we don't have a blood test to measure autophagy.
01:26:07.000 So in the lab, when you measure autophagy, you need muscle biopsies, or they typically even just sacrifice the animals.
01:26:14.000 This has become a very hot area.
01:26:16.000 So the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology was awarded for the genetic...
01:26:22.000 Basically, the elucidation of the genetic regulation of autophagy in...
01:26:25.000 Actually, it was 2016, so it's very recent, about a year and a half ago.
01:26:28.000 This is what the Nobel Prize was awarded for.
01:26:31.000 But what I'm hoping is that we can develop a signature for autophagy with a blood test.
01:26:35.000 So I believe that you should be able to look at someone's blood and look at all of the, you know, metabolomics, all of the small molecules, all of the proteome, and there should be a signature.
01:26:49.000 It should look different from the way we look when we're, you know, fasted, or sorry, fully fed.
01:26:54.000 Otherwise, would you just take a sample of the muscle tissue, like punch something out?
01:26:58.000 Yeah, and I'm willing to do it all, and I probably will.
01:27:02.000 We're just trying to get what's called an IRB, an Institutional Review Board.
01:27:05.000 So to do these kinds of studies in humans, even if I'm the only subject and it's just like, I don't care what you do to me kind of thing, we still have to get an IRB. So we're working on getting an N of 1 IRB. So that we can take muscle biopsies, fat biopsies for me,
01:27:21.000 blood tests, and then start to actually look for that signature.
01:27:24.000 Would it vary in where you got it from?
01:27:26.000 Which muscles?
01:27:28.000 Yeah, more than one muscle group?
01:27:29.000 That's a very good question.
01:27:30.000 I don't know the answer.
01:27:32.000 Yeah, I think.
01:27:51.000 One thing that if you're actually doing this kind of testing in people, you'll notice glucose, like insulin resistance in the muscles of the legs.
01:27:59.000 So once the legs start to get insulin resistant, you're on a glide path to bad things happening.
01:28:04.000 I'm fascinated by legs.
01:28:07.000 First of all, from years of martial arts, but also because over the last year or so, I've been doing a lot of running, and it's one of the only muscle groups that I can work out every day.
01:28:17.000 I can run hills every day, and I'm not sore.
01:28:23.000 Like, that's not even possible for any other group.
01:28:27.000 I mean, I can kind of do that with boxing.
01:28:29.000 You can hit the bag, but as far as, like...
01:28:32.000 Running hills is essentially like plyometrics.
01:28:35.000 You're pushing your entire weight up, and then you're catching with the other leg and pushing it up.
01:28:40.000 You can't do that.
01:28:41.000 You can't bench press every day. 1.00
01:28:43.000 Your fucking arms will fall off. 0.99
01:28:45.000 I mean, there's probably someone out there doing it that's proven me wrong, but there's nothing like the amount of endurance that you have in your legs. 1.00
01:28:51.000 But it could just be an adaptation that you've had as well.
01:28:54.000 I mean, when I was a competitive cyclist, I mean there were definitely days when I would – especially when we did like multi-day events.
01:29:03.000 Like there were days when it's just like – You're beaten down.
01:29:06.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:29:07.000 You're going to learn in the first 10 minutes.
01:29:09.000 Like everybody else is riding together.
01:29:10.000 You're riding alone today.
01:29:12.000 The fatigue level though.
01:29:14.000 It's significantly different than it would be if you were doing something with your arms every day.
01:29:18.000 It seems like your ability to recover...
01:29:19.000 You can definitely recruit more.
01:29:21.000 That's probably part of it, right?
01:29:22.000 Okay, so there's more tissue...
01:29:23.000 I think you have more options.
01:29:25.000 Especially if you really have good proprioception.
01:29:28.000 For example, if you're deadlifting, You know, I actually think if you – so you know how you have like the positive and negative motion, concentric, eccentric motion of a weight?
01:29:39.000 If you're willing to do away with the negative, you can lift heavy every single day.
01:29:45.000 So there's this guy named Ryan.
01:29:46.000 Oh, unfreaking believable data.
01:29:49.000 I've seen people doing that.
01:29:50.000 You know who I saw?
01:29:52.000 Andre Galvao on his Instagram the other day was doing deadlifts and just dropping the weight.
01:29:56.000 And I was like, that seems weird to me.
01:29:57.000 So when I was a cyclist, this was my training.
01:30:00.000 And it was all put together by this guy named Ryan Flaherty, who I actually introduced.
01:30:04.000 That was another one of my sight unseen introductions to Tim for a podcast.
01:30:07.000 It's a great podcast with Ryan Flaherty on.
01:30:09.000 And he's a, I call him the guru of speed.
01:30:13.000 This is a guy who like single-handedly – I shouldn't say single-handedly.
01:30:16.000 I mean he's on the shoulders of many other people who have done great work but has really done an amazing job of figuring out how to make people run fast.
01:30:25.000 And it's a very long story and I mean he does such a great job on the podcast.
01:30:29.000 I won't go into it.
01:30:30.000 But for the purpose of this discussion – One of our interests was, hey, could we translate everything you've learned about sprinting into cycling?
01:30:39.000 And his biggest observation was the following.
01:30:41.000 If he took a hundred runners and lined them up and knew, like before they ran, knew how hard they could hit a force plate treadmill, he could predict the order in which they'd finish the race.
01:30:54.000 So a force plate treadmill, as its name suggests, is a treadmill, but it's a special treadmill where it measures the force that you hit.
01:31:01.000 And the higher that number divided by your body weight, that became what he described as mass-specific force.
01:31:07.000 That number, if you rank order it, is the order in which people would finish the run.
01:31:13.000 So it kind of makes sense if you think about it, right?
01:31:16.000 The harder you can hit the ground relative to your own weight, the higher you go, and the higher you go, the longer you travel with each stride.
01:31:22.000 So Usain Bolt has the highest ever force plate measurement calculation, and I forget what his ratio is.
01:31:32.000 I want to say he's like 6.9 or 7 times more force than his body weight every time he hits.
01:31:40.000 Freaking staggering.
01:31:41.000 Wow.
01:31:42.000 So then Ryan, once he figured all this stuff out, his next question, this is when he was working at USA Track, his next question was, could you train this?
01:31:49.000 In other words, like, okay, if Joe runs a, you know, 4.940 and we want to get that down to a 4.5, can that be done?
01:31:58.000 And it turned out the answer was categorically yes.
01:32:02.000 You have to do two things.
01:32:03.000 You have to get stronger and you have to get lighter.
01:32:06.000 So how do you do that?
01:32:07.000 And that's when he came up with this idea of we do hex bar deadlifts.
01:32:10.000 We lift really heavy.
01:32:12.000 So you're only doing fives, fours, threes, or twos.
01:32:15.000 Never more than five reps.
01:32:16.000 And so you'll do five sets every single day and you'll pick it.
01:32:21.000 So some days it'll be five sets of three.
01:32:22.000 Some days it's five sets of five, whatever it is.
01:32:25.000 And they're very well prescribed.
01:32:27.000 Like, you know, at what percentage of your one rep max you're doing these at.
01:32:31.000 And it's up, drop, up, drop, up, drop.
01:32:34.000 So you're never getting the actin myosin filament to tear past, because that's what's happening in the negative, is the actin is coming off the myosin, and that is creating a micro-tear in the muscle, and that's what the muscle rebuilt.
01:32:47.000 That's why we get larger when we lift weights.
01:32:50.000 But when you drop it, you unload the muscle when you're relaxing it, so the muscle's not going to get bigger.
01:32:57.000 So you're getting all the benefits, all the strength, which is primarily around the type 2B muscle fiber and without the size.
01:33:06.000 So anyway, when I asked Ryan, hey, could we do this in cycling, we did this experiment, which was he kind of came up – this was for me and two other guys who were very good cyclists.
01:33:15.000 Like I was like – I'm a popper.
01:33:16.000 But these guys were like – Cat 1, Cat 2, collegiate cyclists, but they were like my training partners.
01:33:22.000 So we did this thing where we did the same routine that he had the sprinters doing.
01:33:26.000 And it's a bit more complicated than I've described because you're also juxtaposing the positive only with something called a post-activation potentiation, which you may have already experienced this, but I don't know if you've ever tried to do plyometrics after deadlifting, but it seems counterintuitive that you'd be able to do more,
01:33:43.000 but you can.
01:33:44.000 Really?
01:33:45.000 Yeah.
01:33:45.000 It has to be a heavy deadlift.
01:33:47.000 More in terms of numbers?
01:33:48.000 No, more in terms of distance.
01:33:50.000 More in terms of vertical.
01:33:51.000 Really?
01:33:52.000 So your highest plyometric jump is going to come after you've done three sets of three at 95% of your one rep max.
01:34:03.000 And three sets of three dropping or using eccentric?
01:34:06.000 No, definitely dropping.
01:34:06.000 No eccentric?
01:34:07.000 Absolutely, yeah.
01:34:08.000 Huh.
01:34:08.000 And so we would superset the plyometrics with the deadlifts.
01:34:12.000 And you would do this every day.
01:34:14.000 And so Ryan, you know, he runs a training camp where he has typically the top 10 college prospects every year just before the NFL combine come down.
01:34:25.000 And I mean, the changes he makes in their time, like Johnny Menzel was one of them.
01:34:29.000 So obviously Johnny Menzel is obviously, you know, not panned out in the pros, but most people kind of forget how good an athlete he was.
01:34:35.000 And when he showed up to camp, I don't know.
01:35:00.000 I saw something the other day that I'd never seen before.
01:35:03.000 It's an eccentric bike.
01:35:05.000 It changes back and forth.
01:35:07.000 I've heard of this thing.
01:35:07.000 You're the second person to tell me about this.
01:35:09.000 I think I saw it yesterday, in fact, now that I think about it.
01:35:12.000 It was eccentric and concentric, but it alternates.
01:35:16.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:35:16.000 And it looked really weird.
01:35:19.000 It forces movement, and you're resisting the movement.
01:35:22.000 See if you can find that, Jamie.
01:35:23.000 It's like an eccentric...
01:35:25.000 I forget what it's called.
01:35:27.000 But someone sent me this, like, hey, this thing's amazing.
01:35:30.000 I was like, it's a bike. 0.99
01:35:31.000 The fuck are you talking about? 0.99
01:35:32.000 It looked different than that. 1.00
01:35:33.000 The one I saw was also different.
01:35:35.000 I think it was like a recumbent bike.
01:35:38.000 Yeah, that's what I saw, too.
01:35:40.000 Eccentric.
01:35:41.000 Yeah, you're spelling it wrong.
01:35:44.000 Oh, it says just centric.
01:35:46.000 Oh, okay.
01:35:48.000 Huh.
01:35:49.000 Eccentric exercise bike?
01:35:50.000 Try that.
01:35:53.000 But the thing is, it alternated between eccentric and concentric.
01:35:57.000 It wasn't just...
01:35:59.000 The one with the red on the top row looks like it.
01:36:02.000 What is that?
01:36:03.000 Pediatric ergometer.
01:36:05.000 No, that's not it.
01:36:06.000 It's for little kids.
01:36:09.000 Well, whatever.
01:36:10.000 I wish I had saved it, because I was like, I'm never buying this.
01:36:15.000 It just looked interesting.
01:36:16.000 There's always these new methods of stimulating the body and tricking it into doing things.
01:36:22.000 And I guess that's essentially what a lot of people, the way a lot of people think of intermittent fasting.
01:36:26.000 You're kind of stimulating the body.
01:36:28.000 You're hacking it.
01:36:29.000 You're tricking it.
01:36:31.000 And I wonder, you know, one of the things that Ryan and I talked about was, could we ever adopt his training system to swimming?
01:36:38.000 And in running and cycling, it's primarily going to be quads, hams, glutes have to be the muscles that do it.
01:36:45.000 Would you throw things?
01:36:46.000 Well, we were talking about, like, you really got to be able to get the lats fired.
01:36:50.000 But how do you get the lats to fire at such a weight and then without having to do the negative as well?
01:36:56.000 So we just couldn't really kind of figure out how to do it.
01:37:00.000 So we adapted part of his technique to swimming, which was the actual training routine, meaning...
01:37:06.000 So one of the big misconceptions if you're trying to go fast is that you need to still train slow.
01:37:12.000 But the reality of it is, like, you know, if you're trying to run a marathon at, you know, call it a pace of 215, you know, world-class marathon runner...
01:37:24.000 There's not a lot of benefit to spending much time running at a pace slower than that.
01:37:28.000 If anything, you want to be running slightly faster than that.
01:37:30.000 You know who Meb is, the American marathoner who won the Boston Marathon three years ago?
01:37:34.000 No.
01:37:35.000 So, amazing marathoner.
01:37:37.000 I think he's the only person to have won the New York Marathon, the Boston Marathon, and to have won an Olympic medal in marathon.
01:37:45.000 He won a silver medal in the 2004 Athens Games.
01:37:48.000 But when he won the Boston Marathon, he was like 38 years old, which in marathon...
01:37:54.000 We're good to go.
01:38:10.000 All right, Meb, if you want to win the Boston Marathon, you need to be able to travel like four inches further with every step you take, taking the same number of steps at the same cadence that you currently run.
01:38:20.000 And they, you know, Ryan did the math and said, that means your force number has to go from where it is now, which I think was 1.7, meaning he could only deadlift 1.7 times his body weight.
01:38:31.000 You have to get that up to like 2.6 or something.
01:38:34.000 And so when Meb trained for the Boston Marathon, he was focusing heavily on these deadlifts and doing much shorter, faster runs.
01:38:42.000 And, you know, I mean, if you watch the video of his Boston Marathon win, it's incredible.
01:38:47.000 Like, you know, he just takes off and, like, leaves everybody behind him.
01:38:52.000 And they're like, yeah, there's no way he'll be able to keep that up.
01:38:55.000 We'll let him go.
01:38:55.000 And they couldn't rein him in.
01:38:57.000 Wow.
01:38:58.000 Do you think that someone's going to be able to break too?
01:39:01.000 We were just talking about it the other day.
01:39:03.000 Some guy got really close.
01:39:04.000 What did you say he hit, Jamie?
01:39:05.000 Like 206 or something?
01:39:07.000 I think someone's gone closer.
01:39:08.000 Didn't that guy in Germany last year go even closer?
01:39:11.000 I think it was 202 or something along those lines.
01:39:14.000 And do you think that this sort of method is what they're using?
01:39:18.000 So I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about this stuff publicly.
01:39:21.000 Uh-oh.
01:39:21.000 Don't worry.
01:39:22.000 No one's listening.
01:39:26.000 So short answer is yes.
01:39:28.000 I think this can be done.
01:39:31.000 Everything has to be perfect, right?
01:39:33.000 Meaning you have to have the perfect athlete trained...
01:39:37.000 To peak at the right time, you need the right humidity.
01:39:40.000 Everything has to fire on all cylinders.
01:39:42.000 But just as there was nothing physiologically special about a four-minute mile when Roger Bannister broke it, it was more of a psychological barrier.
01:39:53.000 I'm not suggesting for a moment that this will be easy, but we're going to get there.
01:39:58.000 I mean, this can happen.
01:40:00.000 That is incredible if you think about how fast you're running to run 26 miles in two hours and two minutes.
01:40:06.000 It's staggering.
01:40:06.000 I don't think people understand like what a...
01:40:10.000 I mean, I was never a great runner.
01:40:13.000 I was about a 250 marathon, 255 marathon when I was a boxer, but never trained as a runner.
01:40:19.000 I just ran so much and I was pretty fast.
01:40:22.000 But when I think about how hard I would have to run to bust out a 250 to 255 and to think, was there any chance I could have ever got that down to a 230?
01:40:36.000 That is such an enormous change in pace.
01:40:41.000 I don't know that I ever could have done that regardless of all the training tricks in the world.
01:40:45.000 And what kind of diet are those guys following?
01:40:48.000 Well, I know Meb personally.
01:40:49.000 I can't speak to what the other guys do, but I think a lot of those guys are frankly in the state of where I was when they were younger.
01:40:57.000 Meaning they can probably get away with a lot more.
01:41:00.000 If you look at the physiques of most of these guys, they're They're perfectly built.
01:41:06.000 I'm talking elite level.
01:41:07.000 I'm not talking about anyone who runs a marathon.
01:41:08.000 But if you're talking about the people who are going to win the marathons, They are basically all engine and then chassis in the right place.
01:41:16.000 That's basically all they come down to, right?
01:41:18.000 I mean, they are enormous cardiovascular system, very strong quads, hams, glutes, and then everything else is very tiny.
01:41:26.000 When you say enormous, like, is literally the size of their lungs different?
01:41:30.000 Well, I mean, it's all relative, but when you look at their frame, their thorax is going to be larger.
01:41:36.000 And is it expanded because of the training?
01:41:38.000 I think so.
01:41:39.000 I mean, you never know cause and effect sometimes.
01:41:41.000 You could argue, like, maybe these guys were, maybe the people who are drawn to those sports are the ones that are, you know, are drawn to be elite in those sports, already had a genetic predisposition.
01:41:52.000 That's sort of my feeling is it's a bit of both.
01:41:54.000 Isn't that the case with Lance Armstrong?
01:41:55.000 Like, doesn't he have a very large heart?
01:41:58.000 I don't know.
01:42:00.000 I think what Lance had that was pretty unique, even amongst the world's best, which is what he competed with, of course, I think his lactate threshold was a lot higher than most people.
01:42:12.000 Genetically.
01:42:13.000 Yeah.
01:42:14.000 And then, of course—and again, you know, I mean, I know it's such a controversial topic, although my view is I think that every single cyclist, at least from 1991 until 2011, was on highly, highly, you know, augmented programs.
01:42:29.000 So, you know, that Lance won seven of those years in that context just tells me that he was, you know— Training harder and being more specific to the race.
01:42:40.000 I mean, what people don't understand is like, I mean, Lance only peaked for one race a year.
01:42:45.000 Like everything that that team, US Postal, did was geared for that one race.
01:42:50.000 And also when you really look at how much doping they did, it actually wasn't that much.
01:42:57.000 Like, you know, when they were blood transfusing, it might have been two units over the course of a race.
01:43:01.000 And I'm not saying that that wouldn't help.
01:43:03.000 It would help a lot.
01:43:05.000 But that's nothing compared to what people were doing just a few years before Lance came along.
01:43:10.000 So Lance won, I think, his first one in 99. The guy who won before that in 98 was Marco Pantani.
01:43:16.000 Before that was a guy named Jan Ulrich in 97. And before that was a guy named Bjorn Reis.
01:43:20.000 Bjorn Reis's nickname was Mr. 60 because his hematocrit was always over 60. That's freaking, like how that guy didn't die of a stroke, I don't know.
01:43:30.000 Is that from EPO? Yeah.
01:43:33.000 Lance never had a crit over 50 to my knowledge.
01:43:35.000 They would basically always titrate with EPO and or hemoglobin up to 50, which was the trigger.
01:43:43.000 So, you know, but I think, and again, I've never, I don't know Lance at all, and I certainly don't know anything about him beyond, like, the little bits that I have read over time, but I do think his lactate tolerance was remarkable, meaning, you know, we measure lactate in athletes,
01:43:58.000 swimmers, and cyclists when they're, you know, trying to figure out what their performance is, and as far as I can tell, there seem to be these two phenotypes.
01:44:05.000 There's the one phenotype where people can tolerate staggeringly high amounts of lactate, And again, it's not lactate per se that is causing the pain that you're experiencing.
01:44:14.000 It's the hydrogen ion that accompanies the lactate.
01:44:18.000 So lactic acid, the acid part of that is the hydrogen ion, and that's actually what's poisoning the muscle and preventing the muscle from having this effortless actin myosin, act, you know, contract, release, etc.
01:44:32.000 But we use lactate as a proxy because where lactate is high, the hydrogen ion is high.
01:44:37.000 And there are some people who can just tolerate, like, incredible doses.
01:44:40.000 I used to work with Olympic swimmers, and I mean, there were just a couple of these guys, like, they could actually be standing with a lactate of 24. I mean, when I was competing, if I had a lactate above 16 or 17, I couldn't be standing.
01:44:54.000 Like, that was just too much pain.
01:44:56.000 Like, I was on the floor.
01:44:58.000 If I was over 17, I was puking.
01:45:01.000 And I saw dudes that could stand there at 24. In fact, one of my good friends, he won a gold and a silver medal in the Sydney Olympics and retired from swimming in 2004, then came back to swim Masters.
01:45:15.000 He actually was trying to make a comeback to make the 2012 Olympic team.
01:45:19.000 When he was training for that, I would poke him between races. 0.99
01:45:22.000 I saw him get out of a 400 individual medley race, which is the hardest swim race of them all.
01:45:27.000 The 400 IM is...
01:45:29.000 I mean, you might as well just shoot yourself. 0.99
01:45:31.000 It's so painful. 0.99
01:45:31.000 He got out of that, had a lactate of 18. Two minutes later, not two minutes later, maybe seven minutes later, jumped on the blocks and won 100 breast race. 0.99
01:45:40.000 You know, came out with a lactate of 21, that kind of thing.
01:45:43.000 So there are those guys.
01:45:44.000 And then I think at the other end of the spectrum...
01:45:47.000 The word on the street is guys like Michael Phelps are at the opposite end of that, where they are so efficient at shuttling lactic acid out of the cell back to the liver, where this thing called the Corey cycle actually turns lactate back into glucose, that they never have high levels of lactate.
01:46:07.000 I think they were very hush-hush about Phelps' numbers.
01:46:10.000 But I heard from reliable and reasonable sources that he would rarely have a lactate above 8.0, including when he's breaking world records.
01:46:18.000 Whoa.
01:46:19.000 Which, for me, at 8.0, I'm smoking and joking.
01:46:21.000 That's fine.
01:46:22.000 But he was so efficient at getting rid of it that, yeah, he could set the world record in the 400 IM and have a lactate of 8. Again, I don't know if this is true, but I've...
01:46:35.000 There's certainly a plausible mechanism by which it could be.
01:46:55.000 Yeah, of course.
01:46:55.000 It's interesting, right?
01:46:56.000 Once you start genetically doing it, if you could, does it become cheating in the same way?
01:47:00.000 Well, does it if you have someone like Phelps who has this genetic predisposition to getting rid of lactose, lactate, and you take someone like me, who probably has none of that, and you juice me up to his level?
01:47:13.000 Is that cheating?
01:47:15.000 I mean, I don't know.
01:47:17.000 I mean, those are the questions.
01:47:18.000 I mean, this is why people like Daniel Coyle, who are so critical of Lance Armstrong, say, because on the one hand, you'll have camps that say, look, it's the great equalizer.
01:47:26.000 Like, why don't we just let everybody dope?
01:47:28.000 That's a steroid argument with MMA as well.
01:47:30.000 Well, and frankly, it's more my argument.
01:47:32.000 But I have a different reason for arguing that way, which is I think having done these sports and nowhere near at the high level that those guys do it, I just know how destructive they are.
01:47:41.000 Like, the Tour de France is the most unhealthy thing on the face of the earth.
01:47:45.000 I've heard that it's healthier to do the Tour de France on steroids than it is to do it off steroids. 0.93
01:47:51.000 Abso-fucking-lutely. 0.81
01:47:54.000 When those guys finish the Tour de France, they are osteopenic. 0.96
01:47:56.000 I mean, their bone density has eroded.
01:47:58.000 They have lost so much muscle mass.
01:48:01.000 I mean, it is a devastating, grueling event.
01:48:04.000 Now, nothing's going to completely ameliorate that, but if we think that watching these guys kill themselves riding six hours a day Hitting peak thresholds of, you know, 6 watts per kilogram. 0.98
01:48:17.000 If we think there's anything physiologically reasonable about that, we're out to fucking lunch. 0.94
01:48:22.000 But is that the point? 0.94
01:48:23.000 I mean, isn't that the point is that you can push your mind to do something your body absolutely doesn't want to do, so you should be rewarded for...
01:48:30.000 You know, and these guys are in a league of their own.
01:48:33.000 I mean, professional cyclists are some of the toughest athletes out there.
01:48:36.000 I mean, obviously, every athlete at the peak of their game is remarkable.
01:48:39.000 And no disrespect to, like, the best running back in the NFL. But, like, you can't even compare that to what a guy does.
01:48:46.000 For workload, for sure.
01:48:48.000 Yeah, for just the pain.
01:48:49.000 Like, the absolute sheer discomfort.
01:48:52.000 And the physiologic torture.
01:48:53.000 And the duration of it and all these other things.
01:48:55.000 Well, you see it in their faces, too.
01:48:57.000 Those guys, like, when they retire, they look like they're 10 years older than they are.
01:49:01.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:49:02.000 They've lost all of the fat.
01:49:03.000 A lot of them, you know, if you don't have fat in your face, I mean, you age really dramatically.
01:49:07.000 They just look exhausted, too.
01:49:10.000 I mean, it looks like it's just drained them, like they've forced to live 30 years inside of 10. Yeah, so it's like, what if we just say, guess what?
01:49:18.000 Everybody's allowed to use whatever amounts of EPO, blood, testosterone, to be at the 80th percentile of what we consider normal.
01:49:25.000 So everybody's allowed to walk around with a hemoglobin of 14.7, or up to 14.7 or 15. Yeah, but people would cheat that, right?
01:49:33.000 Wouldn't they?
01:49:33.000 I mean, if you allow people to use a certain amount.
01:49:37.000 But I also think, like, the testing on this stuff is so, like...
01:50:02.000 It's so JV. The reason doping is unfair, because the everybody does it argument, doesn't hold water, is because if you're a person who naturally lives at a hematocrit of 47, you're only getting a slight improvement going from 47 to 50. If you're a person who naturally lives at 43,
01:50:21.000 you going from 43 to 50, you get a much bigger advantage.
01:50:26.000 To which I say, yeah, but that's true on a relative basis, but at an absolute level, if everybody's walking around with a hematocrit of 48 to 50, they still have the same oxygen-carrying capacity.
01:50:37.000 It does level the playing field.
01:50:39.000 The concern, though, isn't—I would believe the concern is you don't want people to think that the only way to do this sport is to take drugs.
01:50:48.000 Well, absolutely. 0.98
01:50:50.000 And it's also worth putting in mind that, and this is sort of my pet peeve with this whole drug and sport thing, is like, I mean, personally, I don't really give a shit. 0.98
01:51:00.000 I mean, I just have bigger things I care about than like how many steroids Barry Bonds took to hit all those home runs. 0.99
01:51:05.000 But what really does chap my ass is when people don't actually understand how steroids work. 0.99
01:51:10.000 It bugs the shit out of me when people assume that if you take steroids, you will hit that many home runs or you will run this fast or lift this much. 0.99
01:51:20.000 The only thing that steroid is doing is enabling you to recover faster from the brutal work that it takes to actually do those things.
01:51:29.000 So, you know, if I shot myself full of EPO, I mean, you've probably seen Icarus, right?
01:51:37.000 I mean, I thought Brian Fogel did a really good job of showing.
01:51:42.000 I mean, and he was a pretty good responder to the EPO. I think he did growth hormone, testosterone, and EPO. Right.
01:52:05.000 It's not because the drugs were in him per se.
01:52:08.000 It's because the drugs that were in him allowed to train more.
01:52:10.000 So the reason he was a fitter rider the second year was because his watts per kilo were higher because of how much more he trained.
01:52:18.000 The drugs enabled him to train that much harder.
01:52:21.000 Yeah, that's what it does.
01:52:22.000 It allows you to train harder so you recover better so you have more output.
01:52:26.000 Correct.
01:52:27.000 But we don't want young kids to think that the only way to do this is start taking steroids and fuck up your endocrine system. 0.92
01:52:32.000 No, of course not.
01:52:33.000 But we also want to keep in mind, like, see, it almost requires like a broader discussion, which is like, why do we care?
01:52:40.000 Well, we care in combat sports because it allows you to inflict more damage.
01:52:44.000 No, no, no.
01:52:44.000 I'm saying like, why would, why do, why, let's just say I'm not a professional athlete.
01:52:49.000 Okay.
01:52:50.000 Why do I actually care how fast I run or how fast I ride or any of these other things?
01:52:55.000 Well, because you want to brag about it.
01:52:57.000 Say if you're a weightlifter.
01:52:59.000 Right.
01:52:59.000 So maybe therein lies the problem.
01:53:01.000 I mean, you know, when I stopped cycling competitively, I think a big part of it was I just realized that performance and longevity stopped being co-linear.
01:53:14.000 They started to become somewhat orthogonal.
01:53:16.000 They started to deviate.
01:53:17.000 In other words, the things that I was doing that were enhancing my performance, and I'm not even talking about drugs.
01:53:23.000 I'm just talking training-wise.
01:53:25.000 It seemed to come at the expense of what I believed was going to make me live longer.
01:53:29.000 So specifically, the thing I cared most about was cardiovascular health.
01:53:33.000 Now, the incidence of atrial fibrillation in highly trained athletes is 10 times higher than that of non-athletes.
01:53:43.000 So that's a little counterintuitive, right?
01:53:45.000 Why would people who have such amazingly fit cardiovascular systems have 10 times the risk of this horrible condition called atrial fibrillation, which, yeah, many people have it, but not young.
01:53:57.000 You're not supposed to have that when you're 40. And it's usually associated with cardiovascular disease.
01:54:02.000 And yet people are, you know, showing up with these...
01:54:06.000 I mean, I have four patients who have had to get ablations for atrial fibrillation.
01:54:11.000 What is an ablation?
01:54:11.000 An ablation is a procedure where they stick a catheter up through the femoral artery or in the vein, and then they burn pieces of the heart, specifically around the...
01:54:22.000 I think?
01:54:38.000 When your heart is constantly being exposed to that high stretch, high ejection fraction load, you're basically stretching out the electrical system because the electrical system of the heart runs within its muscles.
01:54:47.000 So as you stretch it out, a certain group of people, and we don't know why certain people are susceptible and certain are not, but they just develop this dysrhythmia.
01:54:57.000 So you're soldering the motherboard, as it were?
01:54:59.000 Yeah, yeah.
01:55:00.000 You can effectively think of that, right?
01:55:01.000 You're like creating new lines to block the connection.
01:55:05.000 Whoa. 0.99
01:55:07.000 That's fucking crazy. 1.00
01:55:08.000 Yeah, so think about it. 0.99
01:55:09.000 Someone said once, and I don't know if this is true, maybe you would be able to have some insight, that there's a concept that your entire life you have a certain amount of heartbeats.
01:55:22.000 Does that make sense?
01:55:23.000 Oh, no, of course.
01:55:23.000 I've heard it many times.
01:55:24.000 I don't know if that's correct. 0.99
01:55:26.000 That's fucking scary. 0.98
01:55:28.000 Yeah, I don't tend to agree with that. 0.99
01:55:32.000 Because you can't compare one beat to the other.
01:55:35.000 I mean, it's hard for me to say that...
01:55:39.000 An 80 to 90% ejection fraction beat under incredible load is the same as the beat that I'm, you know, like is beat per beat the same as the beat I experience when I'm sleeping and my heart's beating at 40 beats per minute?
01:55:52.000 I think maybe there's a directional truth to that, but I feel like when you're talking about human longevity, it's a game of inches.
01:56:01.000 And that is like something that's probably directionally true within a mile.
01:56:05.000 Now, when you're talking about human longevity and you're thinking about all these different things that you could do to extend, how much of that is supplementation?
01:56:16.000 And do you supplement?
01:56:18.000 Like, are you a person who takes colloidal minerals or are you a person that...
01:56:23.000 Is interested in antioxidants?
01:56:25.000 What do you do in terms of that?
01:56:29.000 My view on longevity is it's the hardest problem there is.
01:56:36.000 I'm agnostic about what the approach is.
01:56:39.000 I want to understand everything that you can do with respect to food, drugs, supplements.
01:56:49.000 I think we're good to go.
01:57:09.000 You're willing to take one that you buy in a drugstore that's totally unregulated and you're not willing to buy the one that comes from a drug company where the FDA has their foot up the ass of the company making it to make sure it's perfect.
01:57:20.000 That just strikes me as a false equivalent.
01:57:22.000 So I only say that to just say, like, I think everything should be on the table.
01:57:26.000 And then the question should be, how do you decide what to do?
01:57:29.000 Right.
01:57:31.000 There are absolutely a bunch of supplements that I take, but I don't have kind of a one-size-fits-all approach to it because I think you've got to be able to kind of measure what's going on in a person, get a baseline, and figure it out.
01:57:42.000 So, you know, I mean, my guess is you've had a million people on this show that can talk your ears off about, you know, which people should take methylated vitamins versus which shouldn't, and if you have this MTHFR mutation versus this one, should you be taking this versus that?
01:57:55.000 I think all those things are valid.
01:57:56.000 Yeah.
01:57:57.000 Some of the stuff that I find even more interesting is actually a lot less sexy, and I don't have a good answer for it, but looking at, for example, vitamin D levels.
01:58:06.000 So you see a huge disparity in the vitamin D levels people have, and it begs the question, do all people run...
01:58:17.000 And is that a function of not just their own individual, like how much sun they're getting, but more importantly, like potentially genetically where they're from?
01:58:25.000 So I'm starting to feel like people who have Northern European blood might actually run better at a lower vitamin D level than people like me who, you know, come from places near the equator where maybe I just evolved to see more sunlight and have more vitamin D. What's your ancestry?
01:58:45.000 My parents are both from Egypt.
01:58:47.000 Oh, interesting.
01:58:50.000 So, and the range, like when you look at a laboratory test, when you check somebody's vitamin D, like the range that's offered is 30 to 100 is optimal.
01:58:58.000 That's a big range.
01:58:59.000 Yeah, I'm like, that's probably not the range.
01:59:01.000 So I personally think the range is probably 40 to 60, but I also measure something called parathyroid hormone that allows me to further titrate that range and stuff like that.
01:59:09.000 Well, when you're talking about this, it's really obvious, really clear that there's so much data to go through, that it's We're learning this.
01:59:18.000 I don't want to say it's at its infancy, but if we look back a thousand years from now, we will most certainly say that our understanding of this science is at its infancy.
01:59:26.000 Yeah, for sure.
01:59:27.000 I mean, the issue is how do you make sense of a problem, or how do you try to solve a problem which is unsolvable?
01:59:34.000 And the reason I say that is the following.
01:59:39.000 You have what I call kind of the medicine 1.0 world, which was...
01:59:45.000 Yeah.
01:59:49.000 Yeah.
01:59:51.000 Yeah.
02:00:05.000 May have been correct, meaning there were things that were certainly done back then that proved helpful, but they weren't grounded in a principle of science.
02:00:15.000 In other words, even a blind squirrel is going to find nuts sometimes.
02:00:20.000 And then we basically, following the elucidation of a scientific method, the development of statistics to actually make sense of data, we then got into the sweet spot where I think we are now, which is Medicine 2.0.
02:00:35.000 And to me, Medicine 2.0 is really good at solving problems that are amenable to relatively short, simple clinical trials.
02:00:41.000 And there has been no better example in this space than infectious diseases.
02:00:47.000 So, like, if you think about the unbelievable improvement in human longevity that has come from antibiotics, antiviral therapy for HIV. I mean, remember, 30 years ago, HIV was a lethal disease.
02:01:02.000 No questions asked, lethal condition.
02:01:04.000 Today, it's a chronic disease.
02:01:05.000 For virtually every patient with HIV, it's a chronic disease today, meaning you will die with HIV, not from HIV. That's almost hard to fathom when you consider how shitty we are at addressing other chronic diseases like heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease.
02:01:20.000 So the problem is, if you want to know the answer, Should I eat this way or that way?
02:01:28.000 Should I exercise this way or that way?
02:01:30.000 Should I take this drug or that drug or this supplement or that supplement to live longer?
02:01:33.000 We can never know the answer in humans because there is no clinical trial that can answer that question.
02:01:39.000 And we can do that experiment in everything that's not human, but we've already learned the hard way that what happens in not humans doesn't necessarily extrapolate to humans.
02:01:49.000 And we can do things to be slicker about it.
02:01:51.000 When you study rhesus monkeys for 20 years, it's certainly more interesting than studying mice for one year.
02:01:58.000 But in the end, they're still animals in captivity.
02:02:01.000 They're still not in the same environment and all these things.
02:02:03.000 So my view on this topic is the only way to go to this kind of medicine 3.0 is you've got to have kind of a strategy around how you think about it.
02:02:13.000 And so in many ways, that's what I spend most of my time dealing with is what is a strategy for longevity that becomes a scaffolding upon which you anchor every new piece of data?
02:02:27.000 Because, I mean, I know things today from a data standpoint I didn't know 10 years ago.
02:02:32.000 And to your point, even in five years, we'll look back at stuff we're doing today and think, God, we have more data.
02:02:37.000 Is that still the right thing to do?
02:02:39.000 Yeah.
02:02:40.000 And so that strategy to me is sort of fundamentally based on three bodies of literature.
02:02:45.000 And the first is like what did we learn from centenarians?
02:02:48.000 So the people who naturally live to a hundred, they have the advantage or that body of literature has the advantage of being based on humans.
02:02:57.000 It has the disadvantage of it not being experimental.
02:02:59.000 So we, you know, like we don't know like what cause and effect was.
02:03:04.000 And then secondly, if you look at all of the animal literature or non-human literature where you can actually do the experiments, what's common there?
02:03:10.000 And then if you look at the underlying molecular mechanisms.
02:03:14.000 So I feel like if you tie those three together, you come up with a general scaffolding for what it means to live longer and live healthier, then we can try to look at one thing at a time and say, hey, vitamin D,
02:03:30.000 yay or nay?
02:03:30.000 Antioxidant, yay or nay?
02:03:34.000 So, this has got to be very time-consuming for you.
02:03:38.000 I have a research team.
02:03:39.000 When I started this practice, about three years ago, I realized I was losing the battle.
02:03:46.000 My ability to sit down and read scientific papers was shrinking.
02:03:49.000 So, I hired an analyst.
02:03:51.000 He had worked with me in the past.
02:03:53.000 He was amazing.
02:03:54.000 I brought him over full-time to do this, then another one, then another one.
02:03:57.000 I mean, now I have four full-time analysts.
02:04:00.000 And, I mean, as this practice grows and or, you know, whatever, I have the revenue to justify it.
02:04:05.000 Like, I'll have 10 analysts one day in this practice.
02:04:08.000 And even that's not enough.
02:04:09.000 I mean, approximately 100,000 papers are published every month on PubMed.
02:04:15.000 Jesus Christ.
02:04:16.000 So I forget.
02:04:16.000 I did the math on that once.
02:04:17.000 I think it's like three papers a minute.
02:04:20.000 It's pretty stunning when you think about the amount of human achievement that we've experienced just in our lifetime in that regard.
02:04:25.000 Like how many people are working on understanding just the mechanisms of the human body and this data is just piling up as we speak.
02:04:33.000 Yeah, but the problem is the signal-to-noise ratio is almost zero.
02:04:36.000 So I would say conservatively 90%, if not 99% of that is completely useless.
02:04:43.000 Really?
02:04:43.000 Absolutely.
02:04:45.000 I actually wrote about this once.
02:04:48.000 So when a paper comes out, if it is never cited again, meaning for the remainder of time, no one ever even goes back to reference that paper, you could probably make the case that that paper is not relevant.
02:05:00.000 And if you then further strip out auto citations, Meaning the only time it's ever cited is when the author then goes back and cites his or her own paper.
02:05:10.000 Something like 70 or 80% of papers never get cited outside of an auto-citation again.
02:05:18.000 Is this because they're not relevant or is it possible to get lost in the shuffle?
02:05:22.000 Like some of them might be worth something?
02:05:24.000 I mean that's probably possible but I would bet it is much, much more the former than the latter.
02:05:29.000 And then on top of it, a lot of stuff comes out and then years later you realize it was wrong.
02:05:34.000 You know, or it was, and that's more often the case that it was wrong through an honest mistake than wrong through a dishonest mistake, but there's still a lot of wrong through dishonest mistake stuff's coming out there as well.
02:05:44.000 So how much of this data is forcing you or causing you to alter your own patterns?
02:05:50.000 Well, we believe internally that probably 100 papers a month enter the literature that are relevant to what we do.
02:05:59.000 Meaning, some of the literature that comes out, like the rheumatology literature, might be relevant to them, but that's not what I do.
02:06:05.000 Even that's crazy.
02:06:06.000 That's more than three a day.
02:06:07.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:06:08.000 So that's why when I say I want 10 analysts, you see why.
02:06:13.000 Because first of all, it's finding those papers, too.
02:06:16.000 So how do you do that? 0.77
02:06:17.000 Well, we subscribe to a whole bunch of services that basically pre-filter a bunch of shit for us, and then we have a system where we go about kind of pulling that stuff.
02:06:28.000 So you get those three a day, and then they bring them to you. 0.71
02:06:31.000 How do you have the time?
02:06:32.000 No, so that's the thing.
02:06:34.000 And it's funny you say that. 0.98
02:06:35.000 I was like, literally, as I was driving here today, I was talking to a buddy of mine, and I was like, dude, I'm the fucking bottleneck, and I hate it. 0.97
02:06:41.000 Like, I'm now the bottleneck. 0.95
02:06:43.000 Because the analysts are now churning out stuff faster than I can even provide...
02:06:49.000 Ancillary feedback.
02:06:50.000 Because my job is you hire great people who are smarter than you and you just guide them.
02:06:56.000 You just point them in the right direction.
02:06:57.000 So what we mostly do is create programs where we're going out and looking for new knowledge.
02:07:05.000 So for example, one of the questions that is tormenting me right now, because I still don't know the answer is, is there any benefit to taking human growth hormone from a longevity perspective?
02:07:13.000 There's clearly a performance benefit.
02:07:15.000 Growth hormone is probably the single most abused drug in all of sports.
02:07:18.000 There's no question about that.
02:07:19.000 But is there a way to take it where it makes you live longer?
02:07:24.000 I've never prescribed growth hormone to a patient because, frankly, I'm not yet confident that I know the answer to that question.
02:07:31.000 But I feel like it's worth knowing, right?
02:07:33.000 Because I can certainly make a teleologic argument for why growth hormone could be helpful, but I can also make a teleologic argument for why it could be harmful.
02:07:40.000 And so, like many things, your knee-jerk reaction to something can often be wrong.
02:07:46.000 And my knee-jerk reaction to growth hormone has historically been, causes cancer.
02:07:51.000 Because why?
02:07:52.000 Well, growth hormone tells your liver to make IGF, insulin-like growth factor, and two-thirds of tumors seem to thrive on IGF. So ostensibly, you would think, well, growth hormone can't be right.
02:08:04.000 But then one of my analysts, Bob Kaplan, pointed out to me a year ago, he's like, you know, Peter, I've been thinking about this.
02:08:08.000 And he's like, given how ubiquitous growth hormone is in sports and how long it's been ubiquitous in sports, like, I mean, this was the drug that turned around US Olympic athletes in the late 70s, early 80s.
02:08:21.000 He's like, where's the body count?
02:08:24.000 Like, where are all of these people dying of cancer from all these years of staggering growth hormone use?
02:08:31.000 We don't really see it.
02:08:32.000 When we went back and looked at literature, I mean, we found that the data on growth hormone and IGF are not nearly as straightforward as people have made it out to be.
02:08:42.000 In fact, there's a...
02:08:43.000 I mean, I could draw it actually for you.
02:08:45.000 Not that anyone won't necessarily see this, but at least you'll see what I'm talking about.
02:08:47.000 If this is percentile, so...
02:08:51.000 Higher.
02:08:52.000 And this is IGF level, right?
02:08:55.000 So...
02:08:55.000 Okay.
02:08:56.000 IGF level.
02:08:57.000 Most people are listening to this.
02:08:59.000 Well, actually, it's getting close to 50. We were actually talking about that before, yeah.
02:09:02.000 So the overall mortality curve for IGF and growth hormone is like a J curve, meaning low IGFs, really high mortality...
02:09:17.000 Yes, as you go from about the 70th or 80th percentile up to the 90th percentile, there's a slight increase in mortality.
02:09:24.000 But this is not what you would think of.
02:09:26.000 If you were just reading the headlines, you would think it looks like this.
02:09:30.000 Right.
02:09:30.000 So there's a sweet spot.
02:09:31.000 Not only that, this is overall mortality.
02:09:34.000 What if you parse this out by disease?
02:09:36.000 Well, that's when it gets really interesting.
02:09:38.000 So cancer's curve looks like this.
02:09:42.000 Very similar.
02:09:43.000 Yes, but Alzheimer's curve looks like this.
02:09:47.000 Heart disease curve looks like this.
02:09:52.000 So describe that to people that are listening.
02:09:54.000 Well, so what that means is, so, for example, Alzheimer's disease and heart disease have an almost monotonic reduction in risk as IGF gets higher and higher and higher.
02:10:03.000 It's only cancer that seems to have that uptick where risk starts to actually rise once you cross past the, call it, 70th percentile.
02:10:11.000 And so when you integrate all of these curves together, that's why you see this slight uptick.
02:10:17.000 Now, again, this is epidemiology, so one has to take this with a grain of salt, but this is...
02:10:22.000 To me, when I saw this graph, which Bob put together, I don't know, a while ago, I was like, wait a minute.
02:10:28.000 This doesn't jive with my preconceived notion of like growth hormone is bad.
02:10:32.000 This warrants way further exploration.
02:10:35.000 And so what that basically turned into is now an enormous internal project that will take us probably a year to complete and will constantly be updated.
02:10:44.000 Like we did this already with testosterone two years ago.
02:10:47.000 We put together like a 40-page white paper on the topic.
02:10:50.000 And then at least once every two weeks, it gets updated every time a new paper comes out.
02:10:55.000 Basically asking the question like, is testosterone replacement beneficial or harmful?
02:10:59.000 And under what situations should it be considered versus not?
02:11:02.000 And again, the goal is to do this unemotionally.
02:11:05.000 And that's hard to do because for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, basically everyone's kind of just emotional about this stuff.
02:11:13.000 Well, they're emotional about steroids because of all the press about Barry Bonds and all the different baseball players that got caught with it.
02:11:21.000 But why do you think that is?
02:11:22.000 Is it the cheating aspect of it?
02:11:24.000 Yes, 100%.
02:11:25.000 Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is.
02:11:27.000 I think people consider taking any kind of hormone, whether it's growth hormone or testosterone, as cheating.
02:11:34.000 Even if you're talking about older people that take it, like I was looking at one of those ads, you know, they have those ads for hormone replacement, this really old looking guy.
02:11:44.000 Oh yeah, Jeffrey Life, I think is his name, Dr. Life.
02:11:47.000 He's jacked! 1.00
02:11:48.000 I mean, he's fucking, he's got a full six pack. 1.00
02:11:50.000 He's out of control! 1.00
02:11:51.000 A gorilla.
02:11:52.000 And my friend was like, God, that can't be healthy. 1.00
02:11:55.000 I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? 0.99
02:11:57.000 Look at him. 1.00
02:11:58.000 I go, what do you think a 70-year-old dude is supposed to look like?
02:12:01.000 They're supposed to be knocking on death's door. 1.00
02:12:04.000 That guy looks like he could fuck his way through a building full of teenage girls. 1.00
02:12:07.000 You know, he's like... 1.00
02:12:09.000 I shouldn't say teenage.
02:12:10.000 20-year-old.
02:12:11.000 21. Or 19. He looks like...
02:12:14.000 A man who's really fit and healthy with an old guy's head. 0.99
02:12:19.000 Yeah.
02:12:19.000 It's weird.
02:12:21.000 And I was like, you know, if it's not healthy, then what is it?
02:12:24.000 If that's not healthy, like, oh, he's going to die of cancer.
02:12:27.000 He's going to die of a heart attack.
02:12:28.000 He's going to die. 0.99
02:12:29.000 Period. 1.00
02:12:30.000 If you look at his head, how much time would you give him?
02:12:32.000 I gave you a...
02:12:33.000 If I gave you a bet, okay?
02:12:36.000 We have a million dollar bet.
02:12:38.000 Give you an over-under of 10 years.
02:12:41.000 How many years are you going to give this guy?
02:12:43.000 You're going to give him 20?
02:12:44.000 You're going to give him 30?
02:12:45.000 Wait, wait, wait.
02:12:46.000 You're moving the over-under.
02:12:47.000 You said I had a 10-year window on that.
02:12:49.000 Right.
02:12:50.000 You get a 10-year.
02:12:51.000 I'll give you a buffer.
02:12:52.000 I'll take over on the 10-year.
02:12:54.000 Okay.
02:12:56.000 How many years do you give him?
02:12:58.000 Impossible to know.
02:12:59.000 Am I allowed to talk to him first?
02:13:00.000 No. 1.00
02:13:01.000 No fucking clue. 1.00
02:13:02.000 You're looking at a magazine, right? 1.00
02:13:04.000 No, no, no.
02:13:04.000 I can't because I got to know his family history.
02:13:06.000 I mean, honestly.
02:13:06.000 Of course.
02:13:07.000 Your parents will tell me more about how long you'll live than...
02:13:11.000 But 70 in America is basically death's door.
02:13:15.000 No, I think today...
02:13:16.000 Well, so this is a complicated question, actually, which actually prompts another analysis.
02:13:20.000 Well, it's in the 10-year range.
02:13:22.000 Yeah, no.
02:13:22.000 So it depends how you ask the question.
02:13:25.000 So the question is, what is the average life expectancy of a man and a woman today in the United States?
02:13:29.000 And I mean, someone's going to correct me, so I feel like it doesn't matter what I say.
02:13:33.000 I think it's 79 and 81, respectively, for a man and a woman today.
02:13:38.000 But the more interesting question is this one.
02:13:41.000 Which is, so what year were you born?
02:13:42.000 67. Okay.
02:13:43.000 So in 1967, what was the annual life expectancy or the average life expectancy of a man and a woman?
02:13:51.000 And we could look that up, but I'm guessing it would have been, let's see, life expectancy has been going up at 0.3 to 0.6% per year.
02:13:57.000 We could back out that CAGR and let's just say for shits and giggles, like the number was 69 or 73 or something like that.
02:14:06.000 I promise you, you were going to live longer than that. 0.88
02:14:09.000 What was it?
02:14:10.000 67. 67. All right.
02:14:11.000 Yeah.
02:14:12.000 So would I take the bet that you're going to live longer than 67, even though that was the median life expectancy the year you were born?
02:14:19.000 Hell yeah.
02:14:20.000 I'll take that all day long.
02:14:22.000 And so what we're actually putting... 0.98
02:14:24.000 This is just a dumb analysis. 0.90
02:14:25.000 I don't even know why we're doing this. 1.00
02:14:27.000 Sometimes we just do dumb shit that has no bearing. 0.89
02:14:29.000 But what I want to do is create a graph of actual life expectancy as realized versus projected life expectancy in the year of birth. 0.96
02:14:38.000 My hypothesis is that is always a positive number.
02:14:41.000 What I want to know is what's the derivative on it?
02:14:44.000 Is it increasing or decreasing?
02:14:46.000 So, I think that science is accelerating our longevity and that's one of my proof points is that we are constantly underestimating how long we can live.
02:15:00.000 Now, on the other end of that spectrum, I am not one of these futurists who thinks like there's immortality out there.
02:15:07.000 You know, I would be...
02:15:10.000 If right now I could sign a piece of paper that would say, Peter, are you willing to commit to a lifespan right now?
02:15:15.000 So you're willing to acknowledge that if there's some major breakthrough, you'll miss out on it.
02:15:19.000 But I guarantee you this duration.
02:15:21.000 Like, what would you take right now?
02:15:22.000 If I said, Joe, you can be 100 and be fully functional at 100. So when you're 100, you're going to...
02:15:28.000 So you could run at 100. Yeah.
02:15:29.000 You're going to be like a fit 60-year-old at 100. So you're still working out.
02:15:35.000 You're still shooting.
02:15:36.000 Pretty good.
02:15:37.000 Yeah.
02:15:37.000 Would you take it?
02:15:38.000 Nope.
02:15:39.000 Yeah.
02:15:41.000 Yeah.
02:15:43.000 Yeah.
02:15:54.000 I think there really only been a handful of step function changes in longevity.
02:15:57.000 So, you know, the reduction of infant mortality was huge. 0.95
02:16:02.000 Like once we actually figured out how the fuck to deliver babies and not kill moms, like that was a big deal. 0.88
02:16:07.000 That had a step function improvement in human longevity. 0.96
02:16:11.000 The next one was really sanitation. 0.97
02:16:14.000 Like once we figured out that like don't shit where you drink, Huge improvement in human mortality. 0.96
02:16:19.000 Isn't that hilarious? 0.99
02:16:20.000 It's amazing, right? 1.00
02:16:21.000 We take that shit for granted now, right? 1.00
02:16:23.000 And then the third one was basically germ theory. 1.00
02:16:26.000 You know, starting with Lister and going all the way to Fleming when we figured out like, you know, if you cut open a cadaver and then go and deliver a baby, that's bad.
02:16:38.000 Because there are these microscopic things that none of us anticipate, right?
02:16:41.000 We haven't had a step function improvement in mortality in nearly 100 years.
02:16:47.000 So, what's next?
02:16:48.000 Now, I think there are a couple of potentials for that, but what I don't know is if, like, they're going to happen in my lifetime or in your lifetime. 0.97
02:16:56.000 But I want to buy the optionality to stick around for it by doing all this incremental little shit. 0.59
02:17:01.000 With these three plus papers a day, the options are increasing. 0.95
02:17:07.000 It just seems to me that there's a trend, right?
02:17:11.000 The trend is, as you're saying, there is an increase of longevity, but it's not a huge increase.
02:17:16.000 But our understanding of the human body, that seems to me pretty radically improving.
02:17:24.000 Especially in terms of nutrition, nutritional absorption, the mechanisms behind nutrition.
02:17:29.000 On some level, yeah.
02:17:30.000 On some level, I still feel like we're in the dark ages.
02:17:33.000 Right, because you recognize the potential.
02:17:35.000 Well, no, because I think I'm just humbled by how hard it is to actually take care of people.
02:17:41.000 Like, I think...
02:17:44.000 I'm about as good a responder as you're going to have to carbohydrate reduction.
02:17:48.000 So doing something as simple as just not eating carbs and not eating sugar completely changed my health.
02:17:54.000 I mean, at 40, if you compare the 40-year-old me to the 30-year-old me...
02:18:00.000 Like the 40-year-old is like literally twice as healthy as the 30-year-old me.
02:18:05.000 And that was through something as simple, conceptually simple, as making this radical dietary shift.
02:18:11.000 And by what standards are you saying that you're twice as healthy at 40 than 30?
02:18:15.000 How old are you now?
02:18:16.000 45. But what is the...
02:18:18.000 I mean, again, I'm speaking a bit glibly.
02:18:21.000 How you feel your blood levels?
02:18:23.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:18:24.000 So, like, what would be my lipid levels?
02:18:25.000 What would be my triglyceride levels?
02:18:27.000 How much body fat do I have?
02:18:29.000 What's my VO2 max?
02:18:31.000 Like, by all of those metrics, like, everything was just so much better at 40. I mean, and so...
02:18:38.000 But yet I've seen a lot of patients where...
02:18:42.000 You take the carbs out of their diet, doesn't matter. 1.00
02:18:45.000 You make them fast, you do this, you do anything.
02:18:48.000 You just can't fix some of the underlying metabolic problems.
02:18:52.000 Like what kind of problems?
02:18:54.000 No, I think some people are just so insulin resistant that it becomes really hard to fix them without doing draconian stuff.
02:19:02.000 I mean, I have one patient who is really now, I think, going to in many ways become the poster child for...
02:19:09.000 He's definitely the toughest case I've ever had.
02:19:11.000 And why he's such an amazing guy is he was actually able to do something that's really hard to do, which is stick to something with complete blind faith in me, even when it didn't feel good, even when I knew it would take a long time to see the results.
02:19:25.000 So he's probably 5'8", weighs 235 at the start.
02:19:32.000 So 5'8", 235, metabolic syndrome, huge amount of fatty liver disease.
02:19:38.000 Not the typical patient in my practice.
02:19:40.000 Most of my patients are kind of young, healthy people who want to like, you know, want this immortality thing.
02:19:45.000 But this is someone who doesn't fit that description.
02:19:50.000 Probably 70 years old.
02:19:53.000 On like, you know, four drugs for blood pressure, ten drugs.
02:19:56.000 That's very heavy for a seven-year-old.
02:19:57.000 Yeah, it is.
02:19:58.000 Yeah, yeah.
02:19:58.000 Oh, and he just had a hip replacement.
02:20:00.000 He basically couldn't walk.
02:20:02.000 You know, everything was...
02:20:03.000 And we had tried carbohydrate restricting him before.
02:20:07.000 It just didn't work.
02:20:08.000 And part of it was, I don't know how...
02:20:09.000 He just...
02:20:09.000 It was hard for him to stick to it and blah, blah, blah.
02:20:11.000 So I just said to him, look, man, I want to try something completely fucking extreme and I want to try it for six months.
02:20:20.000 Every month, you're going to spend the first five days eating 500 calories a day of a ketogenic diet.
02:20:28.000 And it's basically just going to be like vegetables, oil.
02:20:30.000 You're basically eating a bunch of salad.
02:20:32.000 And then for the next 25 days, you're going to do a time-restricted ketogenic diet where you're only going to eat in that eight-hour window.
02:20:40.000 And then you're going to repeat that every month for six months.
02:20:43.000 And he was like, I won't be able to do it.
02:20:46.000 And I was like, I know, I know.
02:20:47.000 It seems crazy.
02:20:48.000 I think you will be able to do it.
02:20:50.000 Because remember, all that time that you're not eating, your body's going to have to start eating itself.
02:20:55.000 And so you'll be all right.
02:20:57.000 And I'm giving you a grossly oversimplified version of what we did, but it was much more complicated than that.
02:21:02.000 There's a bunch of other stuff that we had to do to manage it as well.
02:21:06.000 Well, I mean, he just sent me, I mean, we were in touch all the way along, so it was clear that this was working, but it was just kind of amazing to get a picture from him two weeks ago as we just passed that six-month mark.
02:21:16.000 He weighs $1.75.
02:21:18.000 Whoa.
02:21:18.000 That's 60 pounds in six months.
02:21:21.000 Holy shit. 0.96
02:21:22.000 His liver, this is, I mean, and that's interesting, but not nearly as interesting to me, is the fact that his transaminases, which are the enzymes that the liver makes in response to how much fat is accumulating, you know, normal is like less than 40. He was like in the hundreds, 0.98
02:21:37.000 and the ultrasound showed it was just a bunch of fat, and he doesn't drink alcohol, so we knew it was non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.
02:21:44.000 Now he's in the 20s and 30s.
02:21:47.000 What was his previous diet?
02:21:49.000 What was he eating?
02:21:50.000 Just a normal dude.
02:21:51.000 He wasn't a particularly junk food.
02:21:53.000 He wasn't a junky guy.
02:21:54.000 The problem is he was metabolically broken, so I'll come back to why I felt like this was a necessary intervention, despite how draconian it was.
02:22:03.000 He's on a treadmill 30 minutes a day now.
02:22:05.000 He couldn't walk before.
02:22:06.000 I mean, you take 60 pounds off a person.
02:22:08.000 When you say treadmill, you mean walking on a treadmill?
02:22:09.000 Yeah, he walks on a treadmill now.
02:22:10.000 Yeah.
02:22:11.000 Walks briskly.
02:22:12.000 He can't really run once you get the hip replacement, right?
02:22:14.000 Yeah, he's got the hip replacement, yeah.
02:22:16.000 So it's basically reprogrammed him.
02:22:19.000 And so the reason I have occasionally pulled that trick out, although it hasn't always worked, It's based on this case study I read that's very famous.
02:22:28.000 I'm sure there's got to be someone on this show who's talked about it.
02:22:31.000 But the paper was published in either the early 70s or late 60s, but it was the longest ever medically supervised fast.
02:22:39.000 So it was this guy who weighed somewhere between 375 and 400 pounds.
02:22:43.000 He did a 382-day inpatient medical fast where he had only water and minerals.
02:22:49.000 At the end of that something like 382 days, He was down from, call it 400 to a buck 65. This paper was published seven years later.
02:22:58.000 He weighed like a buck 70, a buck 75. The crazy thing about that guy is his skin shrank too. 0.62
02:23:03.000 Yeah.
02:23:03.000 So he didn't have that problem that a lot of people have when they lose a lot of weight, where they have all this extra skin.
02:23:09.000 His skin went along with his body.
02:23:12.000 Yeah, and I wonder if that's just due to genetic elasticity.
02:23:15.000 Yeah, exactly.
02:23:16.000 I would like to know.
02:23:16.000 I would like to know if he had stretch marks when it shrank, you know?
02:23:20.000 You know, it's funny.
02:23:21.000 I've never tried to figure out like whatever came of that patient.
02:23:24.000 I can't imagine he'd be alive now, though I know he was young at the time.
02:23:27.000 But the part that interested me was...
02:23:30.000 That he didn't regain all the weight seven years later.
02:23:33.000 And that suggested that there was a reprogram.
02:23:37.000 He got the blue screen of death on the computer.
02:23:40.000 He did the hard reset.
02:23:41.000 He got to be a new person again. 0.80
02:23:43.000 Because I'm not of the camp that thinks that guy got to be 400 pounds just because he was a glutton and a sloth.
02:23:50.000 Something fundamentally broke in that dude.
02:23:53.000 And what broke was he basically lost the ability to partition fuel correctly.
02:23:58.000 Now, could food play a role in that?
02:24:00.000 Absolutely. 1.00
02:24:01.000 Certainly, if you eat enough shit, that can happen. 1.00
02:24:03.000 But I think it's more complicated than that. 0.99
02:24:05.000 I think it could be epigenetic, if not outright genetic, but probably more epigenetic.
02:24:12.000 And so I'm interested in this idea of how do you reset people? 0.98
02:24:16.000 And again, this is all kind of a long-winded way of saying like one of the advantages of practicing medicine is you get to – you stay humble because every time you think you're smart and you're like, I got this shit figured out, like you don't. 0.95
02:24:30.000 There's like some patient who's got a problem that you can't figure out and it just drives you nuts. 0.89
02:24:34.000 But you realize like – I mean even just today I was talking to a friend of mine.
02:24:38.000 He's not a patient but – I mean, my God, he's just going through this devastating health situation.
02:24:43.000 He has seen every doctor.
02:24:45.000 He's been to Mass General.
02:24:45.000 He's been to Stanford.
02:24:47.000 He's been to Hopkins.
02:24:48.000 He's been to the best hospitals in this country. 0.98
02:24:50.000 They can't fucking come close to figure out what's wrong with this guy. 0.55
02:24:54.000 And so as bad as that is for him, I think that level of humility is actually good for the profession. 0.98
02:25:01.000 What is going on with him that they can't figure out?
02:25:03.000 He's having these horrible neurologic symptoms where he gets these fasciculations and muscle weakness.
02:25:07.000 And obviously the big concern about six months ago when this started was he was presenting like he had Lou Gehrig's disease, which obviously is about as bad a fate as you can have.
02:25:19.000 Luckily that has been ruled out and they've done a million muscle biopsies and all these other things.
02:25:24.000 But they don't know what's going on.
02:25:25.000 Has he altered his diet?
02:25:27.000 Has he taken...
02:25:28.000 No, no.
02:25:29.000 We don't know what's going on.
02:25:31.000 This is certainly far outside of my area of expertise.
02:25:34.000 I mean, what we talked about today was, look, man, all we really need to be doing is fixing your symptoms at this point.
02:25:39.000 In other words, there's understanding what's causing this and then managing the symptoms around it. 0.89
02:25:43.000 I think the smartest people in the country have figured out they have no goddamn clue what's going on.
02:25:47.000 Let's now figure out how to manage your symptoms, your energy levels, your mood, all of these other things.
02:25:52.000 What has he done for that?
02:25:54.000 Well, I told him today, I was like, look, I'm going to send you a kit.
02:25:56.000 We're going to do a certain blood test on you and a certain urine test on you.
02:25:59.000 And I want to just figure out what's going on with your four hormone systems. 1.00
02:26:03.000 There's basically four hormone systems that play a pretty big role in how we feel.
02:26:07.000 And adjusting those doesn't, I'm not convinced it necessarily makes you live longer, but it can certainly make you live better.
02:26:12.000 So I want to kind of understand, I suspect he's not firing on all cylinders on that dimension.
02:26:18.000 Whether it's a result of whatever is going on that nobody can figure out or not, but I'd rather focus on something that I think we can fix.
02:26:25.000 Yeah, the change in diet thing with that guy where he went and fasted for 360 plus days, what did he eat when he got back on food?
02:26:37.000 Great question.
02:26:38.000 I do not know the answer.
02:26:39.000 Now, it might be that that just...
02:26:41.000 I don't recall that being in the paper, but...
02:26:45.000 If it wasn't, I don't know if anybody did the follow-up.
02:26:48.000 But to me, that's the interesting question, too, right?
02:26:50.000 That guy's got to feel amazing.
02:26:51.000 Like, he got his life back, right?
02:26:53.000 And my recollection is he was a young man.
02:26:55.000 He was in his late 20s, I think.
02:26:57.000 Yeah, I believe I remember that as well.
02:26:58.000 I think I would like to find out what he's eating now to keep his weight at the same level.
02:27:04.000 I mean, he must just be so thankful, first of all.
02:27:06.000 He might be like...
02:27:07.000 I mean, I have friends that are pretty overweight and one that died pretty recently who was really big.
02:27:14.000 And...
02:27:14.000 He just had this feeling when he would meet people.
02:27:18.000 He talked about it a little bit.
02:27:20.000 He was just obese.
02:27:21.000 It was just this thing where you're just, oh, look at this enormous fat guy.
02:27:26.000 And then to go from that to, oh, there's a guy.
02:27:30.000 There's a normal guy.
02:27:31.000 That's just a guy.
02:27:32.000 That's a 168-pound guy.
02:27:33.000 Normal.
02:27:34.000 No difference between him and anybody else. 0.97
02:27:36.000 And I've got to tell you, I know we love to beat up on fat people.
02:27:41.000 We love to turn it into a character defect.
02:27:43.000 But I've got to tell you, virtually every fat person that I know or that I've taken care of, they are not disproportionately eating more than their peers.
02:27:52.000 In some cases, yes.
02:27:53.000 But on balance, the problem is that they simply...
02:28:04.000 I think there's a genetic component.
02:28:07.000 I think there are dietary exacerbations.
02:28:09.000 I think certainly not exercising makes things worse.
02:28:16.000 When you and I eat, like let's take a meal that, like if you had pancakes, bacon, and scrambled eggs, that would be like a really good mix of, that'd be a third carbs, a third protein, a third fat.
02:28:26.000 So that's like a shit ton of nutrient, right?
02:28:28.000 If you or I ate that, yeah, it probably wouldn't be that good for us.
02:28:32.000 But like we, you know, let's say we just finished a workout or something.
02:28:35.000 Like we're going to partition such that that glycogen will first and foremost go to replace the muscle and liver stores of glycogen because we have bigger muscles and our muscles are more insulin sensitive.
02:28:46.000 We can actually disproportionately put more glycogen into our muscles, into the leg muscles, because you'll have done that run up the hills, right?
02:28:53.000 And then furthermore, when we want to recruit energy again, we'll have the ability to actually go back and get fat.
02:29:01.000 In other words, break down fat at lower ATP demands than necessarily always going to glycogen.
02:29:06.000 So in other words, we partition fuel in a smarter way.
02:29:09.000 And these patients, I mean, you can measure this clinically using something called RER and, of course, doing other blood tests.
02:29:16.000 Like, they just can't break down their own fat.
02:29:20.000 So their body is essentially broken in that regard, and that can be fixed with diet.
02:29:25.000 It's a hard problem because the way I explain it to people is...
02:29:28.000 So clinically, I'm not interested in weight loss, right?
02:29:32.000 I mean, that's just not...
02:29:33.000 I'm much more interested in longevity, and yes, sometimes weight loss comes with that, but if I ever get stuck doing weight loss, I'm doing the wrong thing for my interest.
02:29:44.000 The way I say to people when they want to lose weight is, look, you don't want to lose weight.
02:29:48.000 You want to lose fat.
02:29:49.000 Let's be very clear on our semantics.
02:29:51.000 Weight is irrelevant, right?
02:29:53.000 Unless you're a cyclist or some athlete for whom the actual scale means something.
02:29:57.000 But for people like us, you want to lose fat, not weight.
02:30:00.000 And then when you say you want to lose fat, what does that mean in English?
02:30:03.000 Well, do you want fewer fat cells or do you want each fat cell to be smaller?
02:30:07.000 Those are totally different questions.
02:30:09.000 If you want fewer fat cells, have liposuction.
02:30:12.000 But we know that that doesn't fix you metabolically.
02:30:14.000 So if you want to be less fat, you have to have smaller fat cells.
02:30:19.000 Now, a fat cell, conceptually, has two inputs and one output.
02:30:24.000 So now I say, let's reframe the question.
02:30:27.000 You've got a room with 100 people in it.
02:30:29.000 You want fewer people in the room.
02:30:31.000 What has to happen?
02:30:32.000 More people have to leave the room than enter the room.
02:30:35.000 So similarly, if you have a fat cell and you want it to be less fat, you've got to get more fat out of it than enters it.
02:30:40.000 And the fat that exits the cell exits via a process called lipolysis, and the inputs to a fat cell are something called de novo lipogenesis, which is turning carbohydrates into fat, and re-esterification, which is turning fat, like in a free fatty acid, into a triglyceride back into a fat cell.
02:30:56.000 Each of those three doors is controlled by hormones.
02:31:00.000 And so the purpose of nutrition...
02:31:04.000 Or fasting or exercise or drugs or hormones or all these things is to manipulate those hormones in the direction of what I call negative fat flux or what would be referred to in the literature as fat balance, negative fat balance.
02:31:16.000 And the hormones that drive that are many.
02:31:19.000 Insulin, hormone-sensitive lipase, testosterone, estrogen, cortisol being the five most important in my opinion.
02:31:26.000 Maybe someone will disagree with that, but I think those are the five that rule the roost.
02:31:30.000 You know, how do you manipulate those?
02:31:33.000 Well, insulin seems to be the most important of the five and there's no better way to lower insulin than to not eat.
02:31:40.000 So the first thing that happened to that dude, who went 382 days without anything but water and minerals, is he basically had very low insulin levels.
02:31:51.000 In fact, once he got into raging ketosis, which he got into by about day seven, his insulin came up only to prevent him from going into ketoacidosis, which was what would happen if he had no insulin response.
02:32:04.000 In other words, if he was a type 1 diabetic, he would have died of ketoacidosis.
02:32:07.000 Because he wouldn't have had the insulin to regulate the uptick of ketones.
02:32:11.000 But if you or I did this, because we have a normal pancreas, we would actually make just enough insulin to suppress ketogenesis and keep that beta-hydroxybutyrate level in the, you know, kind of in the neighborhood of probably 7 or 8 millimolar.
02:32:26.000 As opposed to getting north of 12 to 15, which is when you get into trouble.
02:32:31.000 So, you know, how do you manipulate insulin?
02:32:35.000 Nutrition is the first way.
02:32:37.000 If you can't fast, the next best thing is to reduce carbohydrates.
02:32:40.000 Carbohydrates obviously are the most insulogenic of food, although protein can be quite insulogenic as well.
02:32:45.000 It has a different response.
02:32:48.000 And then that's when you start to think about these other things.
02:32:50.000 You know, I've seen patients where They just can't lose weight.
02:32:54.000 And I watch what they're doing and they're doing everything right but they just can't lose weight.
02:32:58.000 But then you notice their cortisol levels through the roof.
02:33:01.000 It's hard to get rid of fat when you have lots of cortisol.
02:33:04.000 Cortisol is a very anabolic hormone to fat and a very catabolic hormone to muscle, which is the exact opposite of what we want.
02:33:12.000 Testosterone, of course, is the exact opposite.
02:33:14.000 Testosterone is catabolic to fat but anabolic to muscle.
02:33:19.000 And then, of course, women have a harder time because once women go through menopause, they lose all the estrogen and all the testosterone. 0.97
02:33:26.000 And so now they lose two hormones that play a very important role in regulating this.
02:33:30.000 So for these people that are having the issue with cortisol levels, that's exacerbated by stress, right?
02:33:37.000 Yes.
02:33:37.000 So stress actually exacerbates your weight gain.
02:33:41.000 Absolutely.
02:33:42.000 Wow, that's interesting.
02:33:45.000 In addition to a whole bunch of other stuff.
02:33:47.000 You could literally eat the same diet and gain more weight because of stress.
02:33:51.000 Absolutely.
02:33:52.000 Wow.
02:33:53.000 Again, hormones are what's driving fuel partitioning. 1.00
02:33:56.000 You know, you're responsible for what you put in your mouth, but in many ways at that point, like, the hormones take over and decide where it's going.
02:34:05.000 Wow.
02:34:06.000 That's fascinating.
02:34:07.000 Now, you yourself, what's your diet like?
02:34:10.000 I mean, you told me you only eat once a day, but...
02:34:12.000 Yeah, one meal a day or sometimes two meals a day.
02:34:15.000 How many calories are you taking in?
02:34:18.000 You know, nowhere near what I used to.
02:34:19.000 I just don't train that much anymore.
02:34:21.000 I mean, I kind of lift three days a week, and then I ride like a stationary bike, like a Peloton, or I prefer this thing called a Wahoo Kicker, where you actually put your bike on it.
02:34:30.000 So I do that three or four times a week.
02:34:34.000 I would guess when I sit down to throw down, it's probably 3,000 calories.
02:34:39.000 That's a lot in one meal, huh? 1.00
02:34:41.000 Yeah, although the problem is I'm a fucking pig. 1.00
02:34:43.000 I'm kind of disgusted. 1.00
02:34:44.000 I can eat a lot.
02:34:45.000 It's gross.
02:34:46.000 I gross people out how much I can eat, actually.
02:34:49.000 For me to only eat 3,000 calories in a sitting is tame.
02:34:53.000 Really?
02:34:54.000 Yeah, yeah, no.
02:34:55.000 I have an eating disorder.
02:34:56.000 Really?
02:34:57.000 Sort of?
02:34:58.000 I think I have disordered eating.
02:35:01.000 Seems like you just enjoy it because you do it once a day.
02:35:04.000 No, under any circumstance.
02:35:06.000 I stress eat.
02:35:09.000 I do get a dopamine high from gambling or alcohol.
02:35:19.000 Those things are not things that I can abuse.
02:35:21.000 When I'm really in a shitty place in life, I... I soothe and punish myself with food.
02:35:28.000 A lot of people do.
02:35:29.000 So you can relate.
02:35:31.000 And as a thin man, you know, when you're talking to people that are large and have the same issue, it's got to at least...
02:35:37.000 Yeah, no, no.
02:35:38.000 I mean, I completely understand what these people are going through, at least in as much as the physiologic desire for it.
02:35:46.000 I mean, obviously, they will experience something even worse because there's the...
02:35:50.000 Like, I can...
02:35:51.000 Like, look...
02:35:51.000 I don't have veins on my abs anymore.
02:35:54.000 I used to.
02:35:55.000 When I was on a ketogenic diet, you know, 7% body fat, I was completely ripped.
02:36:00.000 I'm not ripped anymore, you know, relative to that.
02:36:02.000 That kind of bugs me, but like nobody really knows that. 0.98
02:36:05.000 I mean, nobody really gives a shit. 0.97
02:36:06.000 So I can still like look like a super healthy dude, a super lean dude, even if I'm not. 0.99
02:36:12.000 But, oh my God, like, when shit's going wrong, like, I want to eat some of the worst foods that have ever been created. 0.92
02:36:20.000 You know what I mean? 0.97
02:36:21.000 Why is that instinct there?
02:36:22.000 Why is the instinct that when you're not feeling...
02:36:24.000 Like, for me, it's tired.
02:36:26.000 Like, if I'm tired, like, if I'm coming home from a gig and it's 2 o'clock in the morning, it's very difficult for me to drive past Wendy's.
02:36:32.000 You know, I want to go to Wendy's and get one of those triple... 1.00
02:36:35.000 That could be an adrenal issue.
02:36:37.000 So a lot of times we'll see when people...
02:36:39.000 We're good to go.
02:36:57.000 Because if I get home, I know I've got healthy food at home.
02:36:59.000 I'll eat something really good and it's just as good.
02:37:02.000 But there's something about also, there's like you're doing something you know you shouldn't do.
02:37:07.000 There's a little weird little charge there.
02:37:09.000 Yeah, that's interesting.
02:37:10.000 I mean, I guess it's different for different people.
02:37:12.000 I think for me, if I'm really going to be brutally honest about it, I think it's that I sometimes just want to punish myself.
02:37:18.000 And I'm like, you know, like eating bad food is like...
02:37:22.000 When you're bad, you eat bad food. 0.79
02:37:43.000 Like, I mean, the funny thing is, I just, I really, I don't know why, I just like shitty food. 0.86
02:37:48.000 Like, I like macaroni and cheese. 0.93
02:37:49.000 Of course we do.
02:37:49.000 Of course.
02:37:49.000 Like, I just, if they don't eat their macaroni and cheese, I gotta eat it.
02:37:52.000 My kids asked me to make them peanut butter and jelly the other day, and they don't eat crusts.
02:37:56.000 Which is really good. 0.98
02:37:57.000 It's fucking fantastic, especially with a glass of milk. 0.98
02:38:00.000 They don't eat the crusts, and I'm like, well, these crusts shouldn't go to waste. 0.99
02:38:04.000 Oh, God, there's kids in Africa that should eat that crust. 1.00
02:38:06.000 Exactly, so I ate the crust, and then I thought about all the bread with peanut butter and jelly I ate in those crusts. 1.00
02:38:11.000 I basically ate a fucking sandwich. 0.99
02:38:13.000 It's like I'm pretending that I'm just eating a little. 1.00
02:38:16.000 Crying a lot.
02:38:16.000 I'm worse than you, dude.
02:38:17.000 You know what I would have done in that situation?
02:38:18.000 I would have been like...
02:38:19.000 Well, I would have started by saying, there's not enough peanut butter and jam on these crusts.
02:38:25.000 I don't have the right ratio.
02:38:26.000 So I would have got out the peanut butter and the jam and dipped the crust in there.
02:38:29.000 And then I would have probably made a sandwich.
02:38:30.000 I'm just happy that I didn't eat a sandwich of my own, as well as their crusts, because I probably could. 0.99
02:38:35.000 Once the fucking gates are open, once I'm out there making spaghetti and meatballs, like, alright, let's get some fucking ice cream in this mix, too. 0.99
02:38:44.000 Once I'm already fucking off. 1.00
02:38:46.000 So what do you eat when you sit down for these 3,000 calorie meals? 0.98
02:38:51.000 So if I'm in control of the meal, which I usually am, I'm a super boring dude.
02:38:56.000 So I like to have a salad in a bowl that's larger than my head.
02:39:00.000 So I always refer to that as a manly bowl.
02:39:03.000 That's the definition of a manly bowl.
02:39:04.000 So it's got to be like a staggering amount of salad. 0.59
02:39:07.000 And my salad is the same every freaking day.
02:39:10.000 It's romaine lettuce, it's tomatoes, mushrooms, cucumbers, carrots, and then the dressing is just extra virgin olive oil, freshly squeezed lemon, salt and pepper.
02:39:19.000 So It's a pretty bland salad in that sense, but I mean, I can eat that all day every day.
02:39:24.000 And then it's a serving of protein, and I usually cycle through salmon, pork, steak, you know, some gamey meat, like whatever.
02:39:34.000 I just sort of cycle through that.
02:39:36.000 And then I usually have some sort of starchy vegetable to go with it.
02:39:39.000 So potato, rice.
02:39:43.000 You know, lately, the last couple of weeks, I've been skipping the starch and just mainlining extra salad and extra protein.
02:39:51.000 But...
02:39:52.000 You know, but that's when I'm in San Diego where I have control over what I eat more.
02:39:57.000 In New York, I never eat in my apartment.
02:39:59.000 Like, I just never cook.
02:40:01.000 So I always go out.
02:40:02.000 And there, it's a little less regulated.
02:40:06.000 So, I mean, I just love Indian food.
02:40:07.000 I love Persian food.
02:40:08.000 I love food that unfortunately is, you know, got more carbs in it than I'm probably suited for.
02:40:14.000 But I try to modify.
02:40:16.000 So like last week, I had this Bob who's actually one of my head analysts.
02:40:22.000 He lives in Boston.
02:40:22.000 He came down to New York for a couple days.
02:40:23.000 We were doing some work.
02:40:25.000 And we went out for, he loves Indian and I love Indian.
02:40:27.000 So we went out for Indian one night.
02:40:28.000 And we hadn't eaten all day.
02:40:30.000 So we ordered, I think, seven or eight entrees.
02:40:35.000 And the waiter's like, you know, you guys know you ordered seven or eight entrees, right?
02:40:41.000 We're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:40:42.000 We got it.
02:40:42.000 We got it.
02:40:43.000 We're good.
02:40:44.000 And so, you know, we sort of skipped the naan or maybe had one naan to split.
02:40:48.000 Instead of normal, I would have had like four naans and only had one bowl of rice. 0.99
02:40:52.000 But...
02:40:52.000 That's still a lot of carbs.
02:40:53.000 It is.
02:40:54.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:40:54.000 That naan bread is insane.
02:40:56.000 Yeah.
02:40:56.000 Luckily, Bob ate more of it than I did.
02:40:57.000 And he's way more jacked than me, so he can get away with eating way more naan than me.
02:41:03.000 But yeah, that night, I mean, also those sauces are like so fatty.
02:41:07.000 Like, I'm sure that was a 4,000 calorie throwdown.
02:41:12.000 The other thing I'm pretty good about is when I'm done, I'm done.
02:41:15.000 So that's the other thing about time-restricted feeding that I think I get away with more because, like, when I go back to my apartment, I will rarely have another bite.
02:41:25.000 And when I wake up in the morning, it's like black coffee. 0.92
02:41:28.000 You know, I'm not sneaking little shit in throughout the day. 0.97
02:41:31.000 Like, Whereas if I'm not fasting, it's just too easy for me to just, like, sneak stuff in. 0.98
02:41:37.000 Snibble.
02:41:37.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:41:38.000 Snack.
02:41:38.000 Like, in my office, like, I share—my office in New York, I share with another doctor who—it's his office, actually.
02:41:44.000 I kind of sublet an office there, but— I've never seen more shit in my life than the stuff patients bring for him to eat. 0.99
02:41:52.000 Patients bring him shitty food? 1.00
02:41:54.000 Non-stop! 0.99
02:41:55.000 To a doctor?
02:41:55.000 Of course!
02:41:56.000 What, are they trying to torture him for torturing them?
02:41:58.000 I don't know, maybe.
02:42:00.000 Or drug reps will bring stuff by or something like that.
02:42:02.000 There's an endless barrage of bad food to eat.
02:42:05.000 But it's like good bad food.
02:42:07.000 Delicious.
02:42:07.000 If they were bringing Oreos, that actually wouldn't tempt me, despite the monkey.
02:42:11.000 But a home-cooked brownie.
02:42:12.000 Yeah, exactly.
02:42:13.000 Smell it.
02:42:14.000 I forget the name of...
02:42:17.000 God, I can't even remember the name of some of these bakeries up there. 1.00
02:42:19.000 But yeah, there's like some ridiculous shit that shows up. 0.99
02:42:23.000 And every once in a while, I'm like, okay, the fast is breaking at 4 o'clock today. 1.00
02:42:28.000 Give me one of those scones. 0.94
02:42:30.000 But as long as you do it with moderation, you think you're okay.
02:42:35.000 Yeah, except that my motto in life is moderation is the only thing worth doing in moderation.
02:42:39.000 So the problem is once I start, like, it's usually the wheels come off the bus pretty quick.
02:42:45.000 Do you try to mitigate that with exercise?
02:42:47.000 Like, do you say that I went off the rails today, so let's hit the gym and go hard?
02:42:50.000 It's less that.
02:42:51.000 It's usually I anticipate it.
02:42:53.000 So last week, a buddy of mine went to see the David Bowie exhibit.
02:42:58.000 Did you see it, by the way, the Brooklyn Museum?
02:42:59.000 No.
02:43:00.000 Are you a Bowie fan at all?
02:43:01.000 Yeah.
02:43:02.000 Oh, dude.
02:43:03.000 It's there until mid-June or July.
02:43:04.000 It's in Brooklyn?
02:43:05.000 Yeah, it's at the Brooklyn Museum.
02:43:06.000 I was in Brooklyn a couple weeks ago, but I was only there for two days for the UFC, and I had a show out there.
02:43:12.000 So, probably one of the best shows I've ever seen in my life.
02:43:14.000 Really?
02:43:14.000 Yeah.
02:43:15.000 Unbelievable.
02:43:16.000 I didn't realize it, but it closed at 11 p.m., and they just didn't have the heart to tell me, so I was there until midnight before they finally came and escorted me out of the building.
02:43:24.000 They're like, sir, we closed an hour ago. 0.98
02:43:26.000 I was like, damn, sorry, man. 0.93
02:43:29.000 So what is it? 0.97
02:43:30.000 It's like an exhibit of all of his art, all of his music, all of – and it's like it's done.
02:43:34.000 You know when you go to museums and they put the headphones on you and you have to like push the button to hear the thing?
02:43:39.000 It doesn't work that way.
02:43:40.000 Like whatever you stand near, you get the music associated with that plus or minus a narrative as necessary.
02:43:47.000 Yeah.
02:43:48.000 But it was...
02:43:50.000 Like, I've never...
02:43:52.000 Like, I think they had every one of his costumes.
02:43:54.000 Wow.
02:43:55.000 It was epic.
02:43:57.000 So, anyway, that night, I knew we were going to go out for a killer dinner in Brooklyn before we went to the show.
02:44:05.000 And so normally I exercise in the morning, but that day I was like, look...
02:44:10.000 Your muscles will be a little bit more insulin sensitive if you can exercise about 30 minutes before you eat.
02:44:16.000 That's probably about the sweet spot.
02:44:18.000 So if I were to ride at like 8 in the morning and then not eat until 7 at night, I mean, I would still eventually get the glycogen there, but it wouldn't be quite as easy.
02:44:27.000 It would require a little bit more insulin.
02:44:28.000 So in that case, I just modified my day and was like, you know, Made my schedule such that I could ride at 5 p.m.
02:44:35.000 in anticipation of that.
02:44:36.000 And I also rode a little longer and a little harder.
02:44:39.000 Just, you know, like, let's really crush this session so that, you know, I can go and enjoy dinner a little bit more.
02:44:45.000 Well, it sounds like you enjoy a lot of things.
02:44:47.000 You have a lot going on.
02:44:48.000 You've got your medical practice.
02:44:50.000 You have, I mean, all these different things you participated in as far as athletics, boxing and swimming and cycling.
02:44:59.000 What jazzes you up now?
02:45:01.000 You obviously have a mind that requires a lot of stimulation.
02:45:05.000 What keeps you going?
02:45:07.000 I think this longevity thing is the perfect culmination of all of my previous lives in terms of professional lives.
02:45:16.000 I used to be an engineer.
02:45:18.000 And then I went into surgery.
02:45:20.000 And then I left that and went into management consulting and had nothing to do with medicine for several years.
02:45:27.000 I just worked in credit risk modeling.
02:45:29.000 And so in many ways, when you combine medicine with engineering with risk management, that is what longevity is all about.
02:45:37.000 If you want to take the practitioner's roll-up-your-sleeves approach, that That's what it is.
02:45:43.000 So I think that scratches that itch.
02:45:45.000 But I think for me, like, I have to be sort of mastering something.
02:45:48.000 So that's where archery and race car driving today become just total obsessions.
02:45:53.000 And like when we were talking earlier, it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know that I'll ever go hunt because I don't know that I want to spend three days, you know, taking 10 shots when I could be spending, you know, three days taking 300 shots in my backyard.
02:46:07.000 Like in the end, I think...
02:46:09.000 What I really just obsess over is trying to get better at something.
02:46:13.000 And the nice thing when you start things late in life, like I didn't get my racing license until three years ago, and I only picked up archery two years ago or maybe a year ago.
02:46:22.000 Like when you suck so much, like the opportunity to get better is awesome.
02:46:27.000 So I think the bigger itch for me is not intellectual. 0.98
02:46:30.000 I think it's like tinkering. 0.98
02:46:33.000 It's like figuring out how to do shit better. 0.99
02:46:36.000 Yeah, I share a similar interest in things I suck at. 0.99
02:46:40.000 And that's one of the things that was so compelling to me about archery.
02:46:44.000 When did you start?
02:46:47.000 2013, I think I bought.
02:46:49.000 Well, I bought a bow before that, but I didn't really use it.
02:46:53.000 2013, I think, is right when I got pretty serious about it.
02:46:57.000 You had John Dudley on your show once, didn't you?
02:46:59.000 Yeah, a couple times.
02:47:00.000 Dude, I wasn't...
02:47:01.000 He took...
02:47:03.000 I mean, that shot through the handle of the kettlebell?
02:47:06.000 Yeah.
02:47:07.000 Was that 100 yards?
02:47:08.000 I think it was a little more, but yeah.
02:47:10.000 Yeah.
02:47:10.000 That is...
02:47:12.000 That's one of my favorite things in the world.
02:47:14.000 He's helped me a lot.
02:47:15.000 He's a remarkable archery coach and just a great person, too.
02:47:19.000 Just a great guy.
02:47:20.000 I once saw on Instagram him and Jocko in the, like, they bumped into each other in an airport.
02:47:24.000 And so, like, I saw Jocko, like, two days later.
02:47:26.000 We had coffee one day.
02:47:28.000 To be clear, Jocko had tea.
02:47:30.000 I had coffee.
02:47:31.000 Jocko's a tea guy.
02:47:32.000 But I was like, dude, I can't believe you know John Dudley.
02:47:34.000 He goes, I don't know him.
02:47:36.000 He just grabbed me in the airport.
02:47:38.000 And I was like, dude, I would have been, oh, dude, I want to see this.
02:47:42.000 He did it with a lighted knock.
02:47:43.000 Yeah, he had a lit knock.
02:47:45.000 Good God! 1.00
02:47:47.000 Damn! 1.00
02:47:49.000 People don't have any idea how crazy that shot is. 1.00
02:47:51.000 They cannot fathom what he just did.
02:47:55.000 Yeah. 1.00
02:47:56.000 I've seen him do some pretty ridiculous shit. 1.00
02:47:58.000 He's a god. 1.00
02:47:58.000 He's a bad motherfucker when it comes to archery, that's for sure. 1.00
02:48:01.000 And he's helped me tremendously. 0.99
02:48:03.000 Where does he live?
02:48:04.000 He lives in Iowa.
02:48:05.000 He moved to Iowa just so he can kill big giant deer.
02:48:08.000 Because he literally bought a farm in Iowa.
02:48:11.000 Mm.
02:48:11.000 A giant chunk of land and raises it for...
02:48:15.000 He does do some farming, but essentially what he does is raises deer.
02:48:20.000 He doesn't raise them.
02:48:21.000 There's no fence, but he makes it very...
02:48:24.000 Make it favorable for them to be there.
02:48:26.000 He has food plots that he grows.
02:48:28.000 I hunted in this place a couple years ago.
02:48:30.000 It's amazing.
02:48:31.000 It's an incredible place.
02:48:32.000 He loves it.
02:48:33.000 I just, I remember when I bought my bow, like I just sort of, you know, went into the archery, like performance archery in San Diego.
02:48:39.000 It's like the place to go, right?
02:48:41.000 Yeah.
02:48:41.000 Went in there and was like, okay, here's what I want to do.
02:48:43.000 They're like, why?
02:48:43.000 I'm like, just want to do it.
02:48:44.000 Like, okay, great.
02:48:45.000 And then I remember when I, you know, got all my kit and my setup and they're like, all right, you got to go to knock on, like you got to just watch this dude's videos and...
02:48:53.000 Yeah.
02:48:54.000 No, he's literally the best in terms of, like, the average person who's interested in it.
02:48:59.000 He's got a great podcast about it, Knock On Podcast, but he gets so geeky and technical in his descriptions and his understanding of it.
02:49:06.000 I mean, he constantly obsesses about form and structure and, you know, archery...
02:49:13.000 To me, my history as a martial artist, it really jives with me.
02:49:18.000 It makes sense.
02:49:18.000 Because you could muscle things and do them wrong and develop bad habits and you'll never reach your full potential.
02:49:25.000 Or you could do things correctly and be very, very disciplined and focused and understand why you're doing something and then really actually reach your full potential.
02:49:38.000 There's really no other way.
02:49:55.000 Yes!
02:49:56.000 I have my daughter come out and do the slow-mo shot of me from behind. 1.00
02:50:00.000 I've got like a hundred of these dumb things on my phone. 0.87
02:50:03.000 And it's just like, I can watch them all day and it's like, did I do it? 0.98
02:50:05.000 Did I do it?
02:50:06.000 Nope, not there.
02:50:07.000 Oh yeah, look at that.
02:50:09.000 Oh sweet.
02:50:09.000 A lot of it is elbow position too.
02:50:11.000 The height of the elbow.
02:50:13.000 The elbow has to be in line with the arrow.
02:50:15.000 Sometimes people are pulling, but they're pulling in their elbows up here instead of way back here.
02:50:22.000 I think that's an interesting point about certain things.
02:50:25.000 To me, the other thing I like about archery and race car driving is you have to learn some emotional discipline.
02:50:34.000 You can't get pissed off and work your way through either of those things.
02:50:37.000 You can sort of get pissed off on the bike and it can actually charge you, which is not to say that cycling doesn't have technique in it.
02:50:43.000 But it plays a much smaller role, and in the end, the gurr factor can out-trump it.
02:50:48.000 But you can't gurr your way out of a shitty shot, and you cannot... 0.76
02:50:52.000 In a car, if you start getting pissed, you're done. 0.98
02:50:55.000 You're absolutely done.
02:50:57.000 The same thing can be said for a lot of things, I think.
02:50:59.000 Pool is one of them.
02:51:00.000 Yeah.
02:51:01.000 It's a big one.
02:51:01.000 Golf, which I don't do, but yeah.
02:51:04.000 Yeah.
02:51:05.000 Listen, Peter, we just did three hours, believe it or not.
02:51:07.000 I don't believe that.
02:51:08.000 It's 2.30.
02:51:09.000 Yeah.
02:51:11.000 Isn't that crazy?
02:51:12.000 Look at that.
02:51:13.000 This place is a time warp.
02:51:14.000 It really is.
02:51:15.000 But I really appreciate this conversation, man.
02:51:17.000 It was really fun.
02:51:19.000 Thanks, man.
02:51:19.000 Thank you.
02:51:20.000 If people want to get a hold of you on Twitter, give them your Twitter address, your website, all that stuff.
02:51:24.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:51:25.000 PeterTiaMD.
02:51:25.000 A-T-T-I-A. A-T-T-I-A. All right.
02:51:28.000 Thanks, man.
02:51:29.000 It was awesome.