The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

00:00:00.000 You can even hear their breathing.

00:00:01.000 It's just sensitive.

00:00:02.000 Yeah, it's good stuff.

00:00:09.000 Live already? 0.99

00:00:10.000 Damn, there's no countdown? 1.00

00:00:11.000 Jamie, you're radical. 1.00

00:00:12.000 You're radical.

00:00:13.000 Mr. Bogosian, welcome back.

00:00:15.000 Good to see you again, sir.

00:00:16.000 Thanks, thanks.

00:00:16.000 Good to be here.

00:00:16.000 Thanks.

00:00:17.000 Mr. Lindsey.

00:00:18.000 Good to be here.

00:00:18.000 James or Jim, depending upon preferences.

00:00:20.000 That's right.

00:00:21.000 Go with Jim.

00:00:22.000 First of all, gentlemen, and there was one other person that you did this with, this whole project.

00:00:27.000 Helen Pluckrose from England.

00:00:29.000 Shout out to Helen from England. 0.98

00:00:31.000 She's back across the pond.

00:00:33.000 She's across the pond.

00:00:34.000 Fish and chips.

00:00:35.000 She's making tea and managing Ariel magazine.

00:00:39.000 That's right.

00:00:39.000 Excellent.

00:00:40.000 All right.

00:00:40.000 Well, shout out to her as well.

00:00:42.000 Let's explain what you guys did and what's so significant about it because When I first read it, my first inclination, I had two reactions.

00:00:53.000 One was a huge laugh.

00:00:55.000 I laughed really hard.

00:00:57.000 And then I said, thank God somebody exposed this.

00:01:01.000 So, tell me what you guys did.

00:01:04.000 Jim, go for it.

00:01:06.000 Let's explain who you guys are and what you did.

00:01:08.000 Okay.

00:01:09.000 My background is in mathematics.

00:01:11.000 I bailed out on academia in 2010, though, because I kind of see the writing on the wall.

00:01:17.000 And so now I am a renegade gender scholar, and I write nonsense about genitals.

00:01:23.000 That's primarily what I do.

00:01:24.000 I mean, I manage a business at home, so I got out of academia.

00:01:29.000 Yeah, and I teach philosophy at Portland State University.

00:01:32.000 And I met Jim years ago.

00:01:36.000 We collaborated and we've written a number of things over the years.

00:01:39.000 And at some point it just came to be we had to do something about this. 0.92

00:01:44.000 It was just too ridiculous. 0.77

00:01:45.000 And it was translating into the real world. 0.84

00:01:48.000 And so we collaborated and here we are. 0.91

00:01:51.000 Well, let's explain what you did and what was ridiculous.

00:02:00.000 There's many fields of studies that you can get legitimate degrees in that are absolutely preposterous. 0.72

00:02:08.000 Literally filled with nonsense, taught by nonsense people who live in these nonsense bubbles, and then they give these degrees and these people go out in the real world.

00:02:19.000 Exactly. 0.69

00:02:19.000 And they infect things. 0.69

00:02:21.000 Their ridiculousness infects certain, particularly tech industry businesses. 0.82

00:02:27.000 Like you see it infecting. 0.96

00:02:29.000 Damore, James Damore.

00:02:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:31.000 Well, let's explain what you guys did.

00:02:32.000 Yeah, so we started about a year, I guess a year and a half ago now, it was last summer, we started writing a bunch of academic papers for the journals that represent these fields.

00:02:42.000 And so everybody understands what an academic paper is getting out of the gate.

00:02:45.000 This isn't like an op-ed that you dash off for like Washington Post or some magazine or whatever.

00:02:50.000 This is a thing like academics work their careers to write one or two of these a year.

00:02:57.000 And so they're really hard to write.

00:02:59.000 They're supposed to be hard to get published.

00:03:01.000 So we wrote 20 of them in 10 months.

00:03:03.000 Yeah.

00:03:07.000 And seven of those got accepted.

00:03:09.000 Four were actually published.

00:03:11.000 And at least four more were on track.

00:03:16.000 Maybe five or six more would have gotten in.

00:03:18.000 What's the difference between getting accepted and getting published?

00:03:21.000 So the process with everything in academia is really slow, and a lot of people don't know this.

00:03:24.000 So you send off this article, the editor looks at it, and the editor either gives it the thumbs up or the thumbs down.

00:03:30.000 If they give it the thumbs up, it goes off to peer reviewers, and that process takes months, often as long as—I mean, with one paper, there was eight months under peer review.

00:03:40.000 So the reviewers look at it.

00:03:42.000 They try to figure out if the arguments are good.

00:03:44.000 They try to figure out if the research is good.

00:03:46.000 They evaluate that.

00:03:47.000 They give extensive comments.

00:03:48.000 They send it back to you.

00:03:50.000 Then you have to revise it according to whatever they say.

00:03:53.000 Make it better is what's supposed to happen.

00:03:55.000 They made ours crazier.

00:03:56.000 And so then they did every single time.

00:03:59.000 We took the feedback and made the papers just the most extreme thing.

00:04:03.000 Most extreme things.

00:04:04.000 And so then you send them back.

00:04:05.000 So now you're probably three, four months in just the review process, not to the writing, which should also take months.

00:04:11.000 And then the editor will either send it back to the reviewers to see if it was good enough or they'll just evaluate it themselves depending on where it stands.

00:04:19.000 And then they'll make a decision as to whether or not to accept it or reject it or ask for more revisions.

00:04:25.000 And then when they accept it, That means the journal is ready to publish it.

00:04:28.000 But then the publishing process requires all the typesetting, proofing, all the stuff that goes into making it professional for an academic journal.

00:04:36.000 And that can take months.

00:04:37.000 And publishing is the coin of the realm.

00:04:40.000 Like, that's it.

00:04:41.000 So the ideal is one paper every year in the humanities, broadly.

00:04:47.000 That's how you credential yourself.

00:04:49.000 That's how you get tenure, which is a job for life.

00:04:51.000 That's how you get to teach people these ideas who then, as you said, go out into the workforce five, six years later and infect everybody with total silliness.

00:05:01.000 So it's the gold standard peer review.

00:05:04.000 So we saw a tremendous problem.

00:05:07.000 Can we tell people some of the titles of these articles?

00:05:11.000 Right now they're like, what the hell are these guys talking about?

00:05:13.000 So we had an article, the one that got the most press was about dog humping in Portland, Oregon.

00:05:18.000 It was called, how did it go?

00:05:20.000 Was it called Queer Performativity and, was it rape culture? 0.99

00:05:26.000 Rape culture. 1.00

00:05:27.000 And queer performativity in dog parks in Portland, Oregon. 0.96

00:05:29.000 Yeah, we claim to have examined under a fake name.

00:05:32.000 Is that a real word?

00:05:34.000 Performativity?

00:05:35.000 Oh, yeah, totally.

00:05:35.000 They have their own lingo, their own, you know...

00:05:38.000 But is that a word in the English language, performativity?

00:05:40.000 I mean, in the academic English language, not in common parlance.

00:05:45.000 But that's like the whole thing.

00:05:45.000 This is huge, right?

00:05:46.000 This goes back a long way.

00:05:48.000 That's Judith Butler's whole thing was that gender is performed. 1.00

00:05:51.000 Who's Judith Butler? 0.99

00:05:51.000 Judith Butler is probably the most influential feminist scholar, or gender scholar, actually, I should say, that's been in maybe the last 30 years. 0.99

00:06:01.000 She's big time.

00:06:02.000 And so she had this whole thing that gender is performative. 1.00

00:06:06.000 It's something you perform.

00:06:07.000 It's not something that has anything to do with your biology.

00:06:09.000 Retracted article.

00:06:10.000 Oh, yeah, there it is.

00:06:10.000 Schuing reactions to rape culture and queer performativity at urban dog parks in Portland, Oregon.

00:06:16.000 Why is it retracted?

00:06:18.000 Because they realized that you guys were hosing them.

00:06:21.000 Do you have any reactions to rape culture and queer performance? 1.00

00:06:24.000 We claim to have closely examined the genitals of... 0.98

00:06:28.000 Just under 10,000 dogs.

00:06:30.000 Just under 10,000 dogs and then interrogated their owners as to their sexual orientation. 0.93

00:06:34.000 So we checked out the dogs nuts and then said, excuse me, sir, are you gay? 0.98

00:06:39.000 And you asked them if they gendered their dogs... 0.78

00:06:42.000 Yeah well we made up these totally insane you know dogs humping incidents and how they they beat female dogs but they didn't beat male dogs so that's one of the papers that we made you know the other paper that well this one also they had the whole thing like if a male dog humps another male dog especially men would freak out and break it up yeah stop that because that's the queer performativity part yeah but then if a male dog humped a female dog they'd be like You know, 0.87

00:07:08.000 get her, girl. 1.00

00:07:10.000 Get her. 0.58

00:07:11.000 You know, get on it.

00:07:11.000 So you're basically raging against heteronormativity.

00:07:16.000 That's exactly correct.

00:07:17.000 We told them exactly what they wanted to hear.

00:07:19.000 And we gave them bogus statistics to fuel what they already wanted to believe.

00:07:23.000 Yeah, and we started off with the idea that what we wanted to get to was a conclusion, and then we made up all the crap in between to get to it. 0.92

00:07:30.000 Feminism should train men the way we train dogs so that we can get rid of rape culture. 1.00

00:07:34.000 You know, put them on leashes. 0.91

00:07:35.000 It's right in the paper.

00:07:36.000 It's all there.

00:07:37.000 Unfortunately, we cannot put men on leashes.

00:07:39.000 It's not politically feasible to put men on leashes.

00:07:41.000 You guys wrote that?

00:07:42.000 Yeah.

00:07:43.000 Or to yank their leashes when they misbehave?

00:07:45.000 Yeah.

00:07:46.000 And this paper didn't just get published.

00:07:48.000 The journal said that this was exemplary scholarship and gave it an award.

00:07:52.000 Right.

00:07:55.000 Oh, my God!

00:07:57.000 Oh, my God!

00:07:58.000 It says one of the best pieces.

00:08:00.000 This year is their 25th anniversary.

00:08:01.000 So this journal's been doing this for 25 years.

00:08:04.000 And it's their 25th anniversary, so they're picking out the best papers throughout the whole year and putting them, you know, pride of place in some issue of their journal.

00:08:13.000 And ours was going to be in the seventh issue.

00:08:15.000 So it either is great or it's not great.

00:08:18.000 So it either is great or it's not great.

00:08:20.000 Like, why are they retracting it?

00:08:22.000 Oh, yeah.

00:08:22.000 Because they know we're bogus.

00:08:24.000 So what?

00:08:26.000 You were right.

00:08:27.000 It's like a broken clock.

00:08:29.000 The clock's broken, but it is actually 12 o'clock.

00:08:33.000 So they would claim it incorrectly that we fabricated statistics, but we wrote other papers.

00:08:40.000 One was fat bodybuilding.

00:08:42.000 They claim that there should be a category introduced in traditional bodybuilding called fat bodybuilding, where people come and display their fat before the audience.

00:08:51.000 And we didn't manufacture any statistics for that, and they loved that.

00:08:54.000 They thought it, you know, one line in that paper was, a fat body is a built body, and one of the reviewers was like, I wholeheartedly agree, or something like that.

00:09:04.000 Jesus Christ.

00:09:05.000 Yeah.

00:09:06.000 And then we wrote other papers like to Hypatia.

00:09:09.000 We got accepted, not published.

00:09:11.000 But that one, we claim that it's unacceptable.

00:09:16.000 It's unethical to make fun of anything to do with social justice.

00:09:19.000 Right.

00:09:20.000 And so if you want to make fun of things that don't have anything to do with social justice, that's good.

00:09:24.000 So if we wanted to make fun of men, that's great.

00:09:26.000 If you want to make fun of white people, that's great. 1.00

00:09:28.000 If you want to make fun of anything to do with social justice, that's a problem. 0.58

00:09:32.000 So we said that South Park's a huge problem.

00:09:35.000 The Simpsons is a huge problem.

00:09:37.000 We went into talking about how Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart have the right idea, but then the journal was like, ah, but they're straight white males, so you have to nuance around that to make it clear that their position as white men, even though they're on the side of social justice, it's not quite good enough.

00:09:56.000 So they published that.

00:09:57.000 They published that.

00:09:58.000 They published that.

00:09:58.000 What was that one called?

00:10:00.000 That one was called When the Joke's on You.

00:10:04.000 And we wrote it so that they would think the joke is on us because we cited our own work in there.

00:10:09.000 But the joke was actually on them for publishing it.

00:10:12.000 Yeah.

00:10:14.000 Duh. 0.98

00:10:16.000 It's so funny how racist you can be as long as you're racist against white people. 0.87

00:10:21.000 That's what we saw, is that as long as you are going up the river against privilege, then you can really just get away with some nasty stuff.

00:10:29.000 Yeah, and you can generalize.

00:10:31.000 Oh, totally.

00:10:32.000 Gross generalizations.

00:10:33.000 Gross generalizations.

00:10:34.000 Do not treat people as individuals.

00:10:36.000 Absolutely.

00:10:37.000 It's very strange.

00:10:38.000 It's very strange that this is the left.

00:10:40.000 You know, I was a kid in San Francisco in the 1970s.

00:10:45.000 We lived in, you know, like, there was the hippie times.

00:10:50.000 And I lived there from age 7 to 11. And it kind of formed a lot of my opinions about people, like the who gives a shit part of my appreciation for any group, whatever it is, 0.87

00:11:05.000 whether it's race or gender or sexual orientation. 0.78

00:11:10.000 I don't understand it from either way.

00:11:12.000 I certainly don't understand it from a racist perspective, but I really don't understand it from racism that's condoned because it's racism against white people.

00:11:21.000 This is the left.

00:11:24.000 These are the people that are preaching against hate.

00:11:28.000 And these are the people that used to be the people that were supposedly so open-minded And so open to ideas, and now they're trying to stifle creativity and stifle dissent and stifle anything that doesn't fit inside that very narrow paradigm that they're trying to push.

00:11:46.000 It's very strange.

00:11:48.000 Yeah, they co-opted the civil rights movement.

00:11:50.000 The good name of the civil rights movement is kind of the brand that they ride on.

00:11:53.000 They're fighting against racism.

00:11:55.000 They're fighting against sexism, misogyny, etc., And the thing is, is that's not really what's going on here.

00:12:01.000 They've actually tapped into this, to throw around the term, this postmodern notion that everything in society has to do with power dynamics, and the power dynamics have to be understood in terms of groups, and how those groups have traditionally held power and exercised power.

00:12:15.000 And so immediately it becomes complex.

00:12:18.000 Stuck in this idea that it's all about this group or that group and how they relate to one another.

00:12:22.000 And I don't mean like, hey, let's get along, relate.

00:12:24.000 I mean like white people are imagined to always be over black people and therefore, you know, there's always this natural power dynamic of oppressor versus oppressed.

00:12:34.000 And this is stuff that came straight out of this weird postmodern philosophy where you saw these dissatisfied French philosophers in the 60s, you know, all the stuff you were talking about was going down.

00:12:47.000 They saw all this stuff and they said, wow, you know, okay, power dynamics are the thing because – I should go back a step.

00:12:55.000 The postmodern philosophers like Foucault and all of this got all hooked up on power because they were dissatisfied with seeing what they called grand narratives, Christianity, Christianity.

00:13:09.000 I think it's true.

00:13:25.000 We're going to look at it in terms of who has masterhood over who, who's oppressing what, where's dominance.

00:13:31.000 And it's just kind of grown.

00:13:32.000 It got picked up in the academic culture in the 1960s.

00:13:36.000 That's how old this stuff is.

00:13:37.000 And then it took this huge turn in the 1990s and got really vicious.

00:13:41.000 And that's where it really got – that's when it turned intersectional actually.

00:13:44.000 Trevor Burrus That was during the political correct days.

00:13:47.000 That's – That's when the political correct thing kind of blew up, yeah, is when all this stuff was coming out.

00:13:51.000 So that would have been, you know, late 1980s is really when all of this political correctness stuff started coming out of the academy, and then a few years later you see it coming all over politics, which is typically what happens.

00:14:02.000 It starts in the academy, a few years later it leaks into the culture.

00:14:04.000 Right.

00:14:05.000 And politics or media or the tech sector now, whatever it happens to be.

00:14:10.000 The stifling of creativity is the most disturbing part about it.

00:14:14.000 Like, the agreement that South Park and The Simpsons are a real problem.

00:14:18.000 It's so bizarre.

00:14:19.000 Because, like, here's the thing.

00:14:21.000 If they miss the mark and it's not funny, it won't work.

00:14:24.000 And then it'll be a bad show and no one will like it.

00:14:27.000 But if it's funny, there has to be something about it that people find ironic, satirical.

00:14:34.000 There has to be something about it that people are enjoying that has to point to some truth.

00:14:38.000 And the denial of this, and instead, like the saying, oh, it's white males that are causing this problem and you shouldn't attack this or that, or, you know, there's subjects that are off limits and social justice should never be attacked, like, to agree to that.

00:14:54.000 It's so preposterous.

00:14:56.000 This is life we're talking about.

00:14:57.000 This is literally the nuance of life.

00:15:00.000 All the various strange things in the spectrum of human behavior and all the things you encounter in life.

00:15:07.000 And to segment and limit what is and is not.

00:15:11.000 What's off limits and it's not off limits based on race.

00:15:15.000 Based on things that a person can't control at all.

00:15:19.000 You're just born white. 0.98

00:15:20.000 So if you're born white, you're born an oppressor. 1.00

00:15:23.000 You're born a victimizer. 1.00

00:15:25.000 And if you're a white male, you're a fucking piece of shit. 1.00

00:15:28.000 And you can say that. 1.00

00:15:29.000 White hetero male in particular.

00:15:30.000 Oh, God!

00:15:31.000 I mean, I've seen so many tweets from people.

00:15:34.000 I mean, so many virtue-signaling tweets. 1.00

00:15:37.000 But one of my favorite ones is this feminist who said, all white straight men are trash unless proven otherwise. 1.00

00:15:45.000 Yeah, that's the thing, right? 1.00

00:15:48.000 All of us?

00:15:48.000 All of us.

00:15:49.000 All of us!

00:15:50.000 There's 150 million of us!

00:15:54.000 I mean, give or take, you know, how many gay folks there are? 1.00

00:15:57.000 Yeah, trash. 1.00

00:15:58.000 Yeah, trash! 1.00

00:15:59.000 No problem. 0.99

00:16:00.000 And that's proven otherwise.

00:16:01.000 And prove you're not, right?

00:16:02.000 How do you do that?

00:16:03.000 That's like witch trials. 0.99

00:16:04.000 You've got to be an ally.

00:16:04.000 Oh, no.

00:16:05.000 They asked us to problematize allyship, too.

00:16:07.000 You see, there's power dynamics.

00:16:08.000 Once you say, hey, I'm an ally, now you've made it so that you have a shield where people can't call you a white supremacist anymore, and you are acting on behalf of other people, and you're speaking for them, so you now have assumed power, and you're reproducing the same power dynamics.

00:16:23.000 That was the Mein Kampf paper.

00:16:25.000 Yeah, our paper that rewrote Mein Kampf actually was about allyship, and they were like, you didn't problematize allyship.

00:16:30.000 Yeah, we had two of them that did Mein Kampf.

00:16:33.000 One of them we just more or less replaced Jews with white men. 0.75

00:16:38.000 You literally took Mein Kampf, the actual words from Mein Kampf, and put it in this paper and replaced the word Jews with the word white men and they accepted it. 0.53

00:16:49.000 Well, we had two papers that did Mein Kampf.

00:16:52.000 So that one did not get accepted.

00:16:54.000 What were the quotes that you guys used?

00:16:57.000 I mean, so with that one, what we did was we took the whole document online and we just searched the word Jew.

00:17:04.000 And we just started picking sentences and paragraphs.

00:17:07.000 So what was it?

00:17:08.000 At the end, it was something like, if we don't combat whiteness, it's going to be the funeral wreath for mankind. 0.99

00:17:14.000 That's straight out of Mein Kampf.

00:17:15.000 Yeah.

00:17:17.000 They didn't accept that paper, though, because that paper, turns out, was written from the perspective of a white lesbian who hated her own whiteness, and they said that it was positioning her as a good white, and because she's making herself out as a good white, again, allyship isn't... 0.99

00:17:31.000 As all is cracked up to be, she was making a problem.

00:17:34.000 She should have really been forwarding the ideas of the black scholars that she read way more and not talking about herself so much, even though it was a paper designed to be talking about herself.

00:17:44.000 Yeah, because that was what Hitler did, so that's what we had to do. 0.98

00:17:49.000 Now, the other Mein Kampf paper was about feminism, and what we did was we took the chapter—it's chapter 12—we took the chapter where he says, this is why we should have the Nazi Party and what is expected of people who are going to be part of it.

00:18:00.000 And we took out our movement or party—he didn't call it a Nazi Party in the chapter, but everywhere he's like, our movement.

00:18:06.000 Took that out, put in intersectional feminism. 1.00

00:18:09.000 And then modified the words and added theory around it so that it would fly.

00:18:14.000 Theory?

00:18:14.000 Yeah, theory.

00:18:15.000 That's what they call it.

00:18:16.000 I love that word.

00:18:16.000 Yeah, theory.

00:18:17.000 I love feminist theory. 1.00

00:18:19.000 I love when they throw that around.

00:18:20.000 Like, what are you saying?

00:18:22.000 But you're saying things that, like, once you say that, you're good. 0.96

00:18:26.000 Like, you can say something ridiculous and then say feminist theory. 1.00

00:18:30.000 And they're like, oh, it's in feminist theory. 1.00

00:18:32.000 Yeah.

00:18:32.000 Yeah, that's the thing, right?

00:18:33.000 Is so much of the stuff they come up with – let me throw them an olive branch.

00:18:36.000 Like, so much of the stuff they come up with is a creative idea.

00:18:38.000 Maybe there's something to some of this stuff, right?

00:18:40.000 But what they're putting forward is hypotheses, and then they're treating them as conclusions.

00:18:44.000 So they're putting forward this idea.

00:18:45.000 I saw one on Twitter today.

00:18:47.000 It was something like – this is about South Park, how it's been laundering racism into society and making everybody comfortable with racism, and that's why everything's so racist and people are shooting Jews is because South Park made it normal.

00:18:58.000 Yeah.

00:18:58.000 But they're treating that as a conclusion, but that's a hypothesis, right?

00:19:02.000 So we could test that.

00:19:03.000 It's conceivable that you could actually try to parse out what variables need to be controlled, see South Park came out, it started doing these themes, how does it track?

00:19:14.000 Statisticians can do kind of amazing things with that stuff, but they're not doing that.

00:19:17.000 They're not testing it.

00:19:19.000 Instead of testing it, they're concluding it, and they're using theory to do so.

00:19:23.000 No, it's even bigger than that, because why don't they test it? 0.90

00:19:27.000 Well, if they tested it, and I'm not making this shit up, you won't believe me, but this is true. 0.92

00:19:31.000 If they tested it, and the test showed that their hypothesis was wrong, They would say that the test was racist, that the test is condoning racism, and that's why it didn't give them the desired result. 0.88

00:19:40.000 How would you test something like that?

00:19:42.000 I mean, I'm not a statistician.

00:19:44.000 I actually am a mathematician, but I'm not a statistician.

00:19:46.000 They're two different things.

00:19:47.000 So I'm not exactly sure how you would test that.

00:19:50.000 But conceivably, you could gather data, survey data, and see how attitudes have changed.

00:19:54.000 Maybe you could track kinds of articles, kinds of events that are coming out.

00:19:58.000 You could kind of pair that up with what's been shown on South Park.

00:20:02.000 Yeah, whoever.

00:20:03.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, but there's no effort to do this.

00:20:06.000 They're like, oh, South Park presents these ideas, which they then cherry pick because there's other ideas that they don't talk about that point the other direction.

00:20:13.000 These ideas are problematic.

00:20:15.000 That's the big word.

00:20:17.000 Theoretically, that's a problem.

00:20:18.000 Why?

00:20:18.000 Because they – and I'm not joking.

00:20:19.000 They literally believe that use of language creates the power dynamics that define society.

00:20:24.000 So South Park's using language and imagery that creates a power dynamic that makes people more comfortable being racist.

00:20:32.000 Boom.

00:20:32.000 Theory.

00:20:33.000 Done.

00:20:33.000 No test needed.

00:20:35.000 No even attempt test.

00:20:36.000 And then if the test happened, the test itself would be racist unless it confirmed the hypothesis.

00:20:41.000 Right.

00:20:41.000 So they start with an agenda, and then you mentioned the word laundering, which could your former guest, Brett and Heather, talked about ideal laundering.

00:20:50.000 I think that's important for the listeners.

00:20:51.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:52.000 So that's really what's going on here is – They're forwarding these hypotheses.

00:20:58.000 They don't treat them as hypotheses.

00:21:00.000 And then they write up a paper.

00:21:02.000 Paper, like we were saying, is the absolute gold standard of academic work.

00:21:06.000 They send the paper off.

00:21:08.000 The reviewers, in our cases, made our papers crazier every single time.

00:21:11.000 So they push it further into the ideology or the madness.

00:21:14.000 How does a reviewer do something like that?

00:21:16.000 What input do they get to have?

00:21:18.000 They said, for example, that we should problematize allyship.

00:21:20.000 If we want our paper published, we've got to problematize allyship.

00:21:23.000 I love that word, problematize.

00:21:25.000 Everything.

00:21:26.000 Problematize everything.

00:21:27.000 Dog parks problematize.

00:21:29.000 Literally anything can be problematized and looked at through a feminist lens. 1.00

00:21:33.000 They problematize everything.

00:21:35.000 Everything. 1.00

00:21:35.000 The whole world's a fucking problem. 1.00

00:21:36.000 That's their tool. 1.00

00:21:38.000 That's why we call it grievance studies.

00:21:39.000 The whole world's a problem.

00:21:40.000 It's a grievance.

00:21:41.000 They're massively – okay, so then – but do the homo – the transphobia thing. 1.00

00:21:46.000 Yeah, the trans paper. 0.99

00:21:47.000 So we wrote this paper saying that straight men are generally transphobic, meaning in particular the kind of niche weird definition that you see on the internet and activists sometimes that they aren't interested in having sex with trans people who have penises, trans women who have a penis in particular. 0.99

00:22:04.000 And so we said, well, that's a kind of transphobia, and clearly the reason that they might be transphobic is because they don't practice putting things in their butts. 0.99

00:22:12.000 So if they start putting stuff up their butts, in particular, we called the paper dildos. 0.98

00:22:17.000 So you can imagine what we were saying, they should put up their butts. 0.69

00:22:19.000 The whole paper was called dildos? 0.90

00:22:20.000 No, that was the nickname we gave it.

00:22:22.000 The paper was called going in through the back door.

00:22:25.000 Really?

00:22:25.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:26.000 Going in through the back door.

00:22:28.000 And then there's a lot of technical words.

00:22:30.000 Did that one get published?

00:22:31.000 Yeah, that's published.

00:22:32.000 You can see it online.

00:22:33.000 So we argued that if straight men just penetrated themselves and had their girlfriends peg them through exposure therapy, you know, you start small and then work your way up, you can remediate transphobia.

00:22:46.000 Yeah, we'll make them less transphobic as a result. 0.84

00:22:49.000 So by self-penetrating or having your girlfriend peg you, you can be less transphobic.

00:22:53.000 And they thought this was a great idea.

00:23:11.000 So we could just put in crazy things that a conservative might say about this.

00:23:16.000 And they were like, why weren't there more conservatives participating?

00:23:20.000 So I was like, well, I'm going to run with this.

00:23:22.000 And I wrote this whole thing.

00:23:24.000 We invited six conservatives to participate, and only one accepted. 1.00

00:23:29.000 And to kind of summarize why, and this is in the paper, in the words of one, I don't want to be a part of some stupid liberal study about shoving things up your butt. 1.00

00:23:38.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:23:39.000 And they published it.

00:23:40.000 They published that.

00:23:40.000 Boom!

00:23:41.000 Right in.

00:23:42.000 Right in.

00:23:42.000 Oh my god.

00:23:44.000 There it is.

00:23:46.000 Retracted article!

00:23:47.000 Yep.

00:23:50.000 Going in through the back door, right there.

00:23:52.000 Oh my god.

00:23:52.000 Now, do they contact you after they retract your article?

00:23:55.000 They go, you guys are fucking assholes. 1.00

00:23:57.000 You're wasting our time. 1.00

00:23:58.000 We spent hours reviewing your papers.

00:24:01.000 We got a couple of pretty bitter responses, but mostly no.

00:24:04.000 Mostly they've kind of put their head in the sand and kind of avoided talking to us.

00:24:07.000 What I was saying before the show started, that I read one article that was really diminishing the impact of what you guys have done.

00:24:15.000 Saying, like, it's not a big deal.

00:24:18.000 Wrong.

00:24:19.000 They were trying to make it seem as if what you guys had written was just a prank.

00:24:26.000 Yeah, that's not what happened here.

00:24:27.000 That's absolutely false.

00:24:28.000 There's a lot of papers that seem like parody that make it through that you guys aren't writing.

00:24:34.000 Oh yeah, we could pull up one about how Hot Wings, like there's a TV show, Spicy Ones or something like that about Hot Wings.

00:24:39.000 Oh yeah, the YouTube show.

00:24:41.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:42.000 Hot Ones?

00:24:43.000 Hot Ones, that's what it was.

00:24:45.000 There is a paper out there about that show, and it's all about how hot sauce has everything to do with masculinity and being manly, and they didn't have enough women on the show.

00:24:55.000 Problematized.

00:24:55.000 Because it's sexist, and the hot sauce, I think, was the sexist part.

00:24:59.000 And it has all these bizarre conclusions.

00:25:01.000 We cited that in the paper we wrote about Hooters.

00:25:03.000 We put in the part that there was, you know, masculinity contests of eating the hot wings. 0.62

00:25:07.000 Who can eat more hot wings? 0.97

00:25:08.000 And then they'd say, oh, I ate 20 hot wings.

00:25:10.000 Ask out the Hooters girl. 1.00

00:25:12.000 Professor, wing eating show hot ones is problematic for women. 1.00

00:25:16.000 See, problematic.

00:25:16.000 He's an ally.

00:25:17.000 There we go.

00:25:17.000 Yeah, but that's a real paper, right?

00:25:19.000 So we cited that paper.

00:25:20.000 It's real.

00:25:21.000 There are thousands of papers like this.

00:25:25.000 There it is.

00:25:26.000 The spicy, spectacular food, gender, and celebrity on Hot Ones.

00:25:29.000 And so as a professor, he probably teaches this stuff to his students, right?

00:25:34.000 So now everything's problematized.

00:25:35.000 And this is what credentials him.

00:25:38.000 In general, you get seven of these.

00:25:40.000 It says it's a woman.

00:25:41.000 Seven years.

00:25:42.000 Emily, she wrote it.

00:25:43.000 But who's the other one?

00:25:44.000 Tisha?

00:25:46.000 At the end, who wrote that?

00:25:48.000 Introduction.

00:25:49.000 What's the difference?

00:25:50.000 There's two people there.

00:25:51.000 Oh, it's a commentary.

00:25:52.000 Is it an article about the article?

00:25:55.000 Yeah, that's probably what's going on.

00:25:57.000 Commentary and criticism.

00:25:58.000 Hmm.

00:25:59.000 Yeah, this is, it looks like, I mean, I haven't read this specifically.

00:26:02.000 Wait a minute, listen to the first statement.

00:26:04.000 Food media have been recognized as cultural artifacts that reference culturally and historically specific ideals of gender.

00:26:11.000 Exactly.

00:26:12.000 Drawing on the simultaneously mundane and ominous...

00:26:17.000 Qualities of food as a medium for interrogating ideas about feminism and identity performance.

00:26:24.000 See what I was telling you. 0.99

00:26:25.000 Shut the fuck up! 1.00

00:26:26.000 It's all there, man. 1.00

00:26:27.000 That's like everything we're talking about. 0.98

00:26:29.000 This is such unbelievable horseshit. 0.97

00:26:32.000 No. 0.99

00:26:32.000 This person is teaching at Central Michigan University? 0.99

00:26:35.000 Yeah.

00:26:36.000 This is for real.

00:26:37.000 This is for real.

00:26:38.000 And so there is now an ever-expanding group of these folks.

00:26:43.000 They teach...

00:26:45.000 Do you want to read more of it? 0.96

00:26:46.000 It's so fucking funny! 0.88

00:26:48.000 In this commentary and criticism section, the authors introduce a diverse sample of case studies that demonstrate the emergence of feminist ideas in and through food media. 0.96

00:26:59.000 Oh yeah, man. 0.99

00:26:59.000 What the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

00:27:01.000 They're really worried about that. 1.00

00:27:02.000 Get a job!

00:27:04.000 Get a real job!

00:27:05.000 Go out there and work.

00:27:08.000 Do something that someone wants to pay for.

00:27:11.000 Do something of value.

00:27:13.000 Engagement with hot sauce.

00:27:14.000 God, this is so crazy.

00:27:16.000 Right.

00:27:17.000 And this is what they're teaching our kids.

00:27:19.000 Racial assumptions inherent to post-feminist food culture.

00:27:23.000 Oh, yeah.

00:27:24.000 I was going to write a paper about how cornbread is being gentrified, and that's why we'll never get over racism, because white people are making pumpkin spice cornbread. 0.83

00:27:30.000 There's something that I tweeted the other day about some...

00:27:33.000 Gadsad tweeted it, and I retweeted it, about some woman.

00:27:39.000 She was taking back bone broth.

00:27:41.000 Oh, I saw that.

00:27:42.000 Yeah, that's good. 1.00

00:27:43.000 What in the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

00:27:45.000 People have been cooking bone broth for thousands of years. 1.00

00:27:48.000 Thousands of years.

00:27:49.000 It's a way of getting nutrients from the food you eat.

00:27:52.000 They've problematized it.

00:27:53.000 Look at this.

00:27:55.000 Queer woman of color wants to decolonize bone broth. 1.00

00:28:00.000 Stop appropriating my culture. 0.92

00:28:02.000 It's Gadsad.

00:28:04.000 He's awesome. 0.99

00:28:04.000 That is so fucking preposterous, a queer woman of color. 0.99

00:28:09.000 This is what I'm saying, man. 1.00

00:28:09.000 There's a thousand papers like this out there for everyone we wrote. 1.00

00:28:13.000 Yeah, a thousand of them that you might as well have written.

00:28:15.000 Well, you couldn't tell if we did or didn't.

00:28:17.000 And that's part of the thing, is people can't differentiate what we've done.

00:28:21.000 In fact, not only can they not differentiate, they give us an award.

00:28:23.000 So they can't differentiate it from the stuff that's already out there, and the stuff that's already out there is polluting people's minds.

00:28:30.000 Now, you guys, at least you used to work in academia.

00:28:35.000 You work in academia.

00:28:36.000 How are your peers treating this?

00:28:40.000 Are people mad at you?

00:28:42.000 Well, Pete is going to have a lot to say about that, I think.

00:28:44.000 But for me, from academic people, I've had two kinds of responses.

00:28:48.000 But some of those are like, ah, you guys.

00:28:52.000 And then the overwhelming of them are the same thing over and over and over again.

00:28:55.000 And I mean a lot of people.

00:28:57.000 Thank you so much for doing this, but I can't.

00:28:59.000 Don't tell anybody.

00:29:00.000 I'm trying to get a job.

00:29:02.000 I'm up for tenure.

00:29:03.000 I can't talk.

00:29:04.000 Thank you.

00:29:05.000 This needs to go.

00:29:05.000 And that's everywhere.

00:29:07.000 It's everywhere.

00:29:07.000 You can't proceed through academia now unless you bow to this stuff.

00:29:14.000 Tenure sounds like tyranny.

00:29:15.000 The whole thing sounds preposterous.

00:29:18.000 You can keep a job for life.

00:29:19.000 Well, the idea was supposed to be that you work your ass off for a few years, and then it was supposed to be to defend academic freedom.

00:29:25.000 So you get tenure, then you can go forth and put out some crazy ideas, really dig into some stuff, and they can't fire you for coming up with maybe weird stuff.

00:29:35.000 And then people would argue about it.

00:29:36.000 But now it's kind of become the situation where people get in their job, and then you can't get rid of them.

00:29:42.000 Right, right, right.

00:29:44.000 Is there a way to fire people?

00:29:46.000 Well, if they do something like sexual harassment, then usually, yeah.

00:29:49.000 Yeah, you can find a way around the tenure thing.

00:29:52.000 So...

00:29:53.000 What is it like for you?

00:29:54.000 Now, you are actually teaching.

00:29:56.000 It's super uncomfortable.

00:29:57.000 Are people upset at you?

00:29:59.000 Yeah, I'd say they're enraged.

00:30:03.000 You know, I mean, the only thing I can think of, it's like, is if you taught at a Christian school and then you went in and, you know, took videos and posted them on YouTube of defecating the Bible and then just walked into the school...

00:30:15.000 So I think it's kind of similar in that they have bought hook, line, and sinker into microaggressions, trigger warnings, safe spaces, diversity initiatives.

00:30:25.000 There's no questioning.

00:30:27.000 And it's something for me that makes me...

00:30:30.000 I'm deeply uncomfortable when my students can't ask questions, when they can't – they're just uncomfortable to voice their opinions about things.

00:30:40.000 And I think that, to say the least, a lot of people are enraged at me.

00:30:46.000 But exactly what Jim said, some people will come in like, oh, thank you so much.

00:30:50.000 But again, I can't be public about this.

00:30:53.000 What is the ratio?

00:30:55.000 I mean, for me, it's like 95% people who are really happy it happened and can't let it be known.

00:31:02.000 But I'm not, you know, facing these people every day.

00:31:06.000 Yeah.

00:31:07.000 Well, you know, through the videos from Evergreen State...

00:31:11.000 You can see Brett Weinstein's interactions with not just students, but also some of the professors that were there, some of these preposterous people that he had to work with that are buying in hook, line, and sinker to this stuff, and they live in these insulated worlds.

00:31:24.000 And they just create these people that also want to stay inside these insulated worlds and then just sort of stew in these ideas and then, again, go out into the real world.

00:31:39.000 Yeah, and they think they're better people as a result.

00:31:41.000 Yeah, that's the big trick.

00:31:43.000 They're doing the good work. 0.95

00:31:44.000 Yeah, because to question this, maybe to look at it and say, you know, that kind of looks like bullshit, but I don't know. 0.69

00:31:51.000 A lot of these guys are left-leaning people or outright leftists. 0.53

00:31:54.000 A lot of them want to do the right thing, right?

00:31:56.000 Yeah.

00:31:56.000 They really do.

00:31:57.000 These people really care about progressive agendas, you know, We're good to go.

00:32:25.000 Isn't the best way to do it.

00:32:27.000 But then the first thought you have is, well, these people in these disciplines, grievance studies, are fighting racism.

00:32:34.000 So if I go against them, then I'm going against the people fighting racism, so maybe I'm helping racism.

00:32:38.000 If we get any criticism, that's what it always is.

00:32:41.000 You're helping racists.

00:32:42.000 You're a tool of the right, etc., etc., etc. 1.00

00:32:45.000 You're a racist. 0.99

00:32:46.000 Yeah, or we are outright racists. 0.99

00:32:48.000 Yeah, outright racists and accused of being alt-right.

00:32:52.000 If you disagree with any of this stuff, I get accused of being alt-right all the time.

00:32:57.000 I lean so far left.

00:32:59.000 Universal healthcare, universal basic income, free schooling.

00:33:04.000 I think education should be free.

00:33:06.000 I think we should pay for it.

00:33:07.000 I believe in a lot of socialist ideas.

00:33:09.000 Totally. 0.99

00:33:09.000 But I'm right-wing because I make fun of people that want to study problemization of dogs fucking. 0.99

00:33:15.000 Yeah, exactly. 0.99

00:33:16.000 I mean, this is really where it is.

00:33:18.000 That's where it is.

00:33:19.000 If you look at whether I support Gay rights.

00:33:22.000 Women's rights. 0.96

00:33:22.000 I'm on board. 0.96

00:33:24.000 All the rights.

00:33:24.000 All of them.

00:33:24.000 I'm on board with all that shit.

00:33:26.000 Take more of my taxes. 1.00

00:33:28.000 I can afford to pay more if I really believe that people are going to get real healthcare and real education.

00:33:34.000 We're the same. 0.93

00:33:35.000 I would be fucking very happy. 0.99

00:33:37.000 Very happy. 1.00

00:33:38.000 If I thought it was all being appropriated and used correctly, fuck yeah. 0.99

00:33:43.000 Let's make the world a better place. 0.99

00:33:44.000 So that's the thing, right?

00:33:45.000 Is if all this scholarship that they were doing on race and gender, that's important stuff.

00:33:50.000 Right.

00:33:50.000 So if they're doing that right, why wouldn't you want to be behind it?

00:33:53.000 Right.

00:33:54.000 But they're not doing it right.

00:33:54.000 How do I know?

00:33:55.000 Because I made up papers about dog humping and made up the conclusion before I wrote the paper, and then, boom, they publish it and give it an award.

00:34:04.000 If I can start with the conclusion and then work backwards to that conclusion, then I'm not doing rigorous scholarship. 0.99

00:34:09.000 I'm making shit up. 0.92

00:34:10.000 Well, also, there's no room for dissent. 0.99

00:34:13.000 None.

00:34:13.000 Absolutely none.

00:34:14.000 Zero.

00:34:15.000 And in academia, you can't even – you have to teach whatever the moral orthodoxy is.

00:34:19.000 So just imagine this.

00:34:21.000 Going into a university, you're trying to – your young mind, your young kid – And I'm deeply concerned about these kids that are going in.

00:34:28.000 They never hear the other side of an issue about immigration.

00:34:31.000 They never hear the others.

00:34:32.000 So they become brittle over time.

00:34:34.000 So when they hear it, they don't know what to do.

00:34:37.000 They're shocked by it.

00:34:38.000 Professors are terrified that they'll get a complaint.

00:34:41.000 They'll have to go to the diversity board.

00:34:43.000 I've been told that I'm not allowed to render my opinion about protected classes.

00:34:47.000 And you teach ethics.

00:34:48.000 And I teach ethics.

00:34:48.000 I don't teach accounting.

00:34:49.000 Protected classes.

00:34:50.000 Yeah, protected classes.

00:34:51.000 I've also – that's a great question.

00:34:53.000 What does that mean?

00:34:53.000 Thank you for asking.

00:34:54.000 I've asked for a definition of protected classes, a list of protected classes.

00:34:58.000 I didn't receive any.

00:35:00.000 But yet you can be criticized for – Yeah, I cannot offer – You can be fired for it.

00:35:04.000 Yeah, I cannot offer – But there's no list.

00:35:06.000 Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:35:08.000 So, yeah, I was up on a Title IX violation.

00:35:11.000 You were up for a violation?

00:35:12.000 A Title IX violation.

00:35:13.000 What is a Title IX violation? 1.00

00:35:15.000 Title IX violation is serious shit. 0.98

00:35:17.000 That's federal discrimination law in universities. 0.99

00:35:20.000 You were?

00:35:21.000 Yeah.

00:35:21.000 What did you do?

00:35:22.000 I can't talk about it.

00:35:23.000 It's legal.

00:35:24.000 But among the other things that came out in that meeting were...

00:35:29.000 I'm not allowed to render my opinion about a protected class.

00:35:33.000 And so for example, I can't – so homosexuals I know are covered under protected classes.

00:35:39.000 You can't have an opinion on homosexual people?

00:35:42.000 I can have an opinion but I can't – What if it's a positive opinion?

00:35:45.000 Well, so the example that was used in class was evidently I made a comment...

00:35:51.000 Okay, so let's take a step back.

00:35:53.000 Okay.

00:35:54.000 So this is an ethics class, and I was talking about how sexual choice does not fall into the realm of morality.

00:36:02.000 So if a guy's gay and he likes another guy, that's just not a moral thing. 0.75

00:36:06.000 That's just...

00:36:07.000 Preference or...

00:36:08.000 Yeah, it just is what it is, like a matter of taste.

00:36:10.000 Sure.

00:36:10.000 And I don't remember the whole thing, but someone in...

00:36:15.000 Someone in the class said, Everybody has a preference.

00:36:39.000 Like, you can't say that no one had a preference.

00:36:40.000 I said, it would be as if I said, well, you know, I don't want to date someone who's 400 pounds.

00:36:48.000 So that comment then got turned into something when they called somebody else in, the Office of Diversity and Inclusion called someone else in, and it was made that I was rendering my opinion about people who were 400 pounds.

00:37:03.000 What I was doing is saying that homosexuality itself, there's no reason to give that. 0.56

00:37:08.000 It's just not a moral thing.

00:37:09.000 But people lump it in.

00:37:11.000 But the main point of this whole thing is that we have situations in which professors can't talk about protected classes.

00:37:18.000 Students are afraid to ask questions.

00:37:20.000 Everybody's walking on eggshells.

00:37:22.000 And the students aren't learning.

00:37:23.000 And phrases are taken out of context.

00:37:25.000 Phrases are taken out of context.

00:37:26.000 Now, if you want a place to go...

00:37:29.000 To celebrate whatever the reigning moral orthodoxy is, then the university is a great place for you.

00:37:34.000 Did you explain what you meant by saying you don't want to date people over 400 pounds?

00:37:41.000 Did you explain the context of the use of...

00:37:43.000 She wasn't interested in the context of it.

00:37:45.000 And the trick is he didn't even say he doesn't want to date people over 400 pounds.

00:37:49.000 He said it's as if I said that.

00:37:51.000 Exactly.

00:37:51.000 I phrased it as a hypothetical.

00:37:52.000 Right.

00:37:53.000 So there are entire things...

00:37:56.000 But if you had said, maybe I don't want to date people over 7 feet tall, maybe you could have got away with that.

00:38:03.000 Yeah, I don't think people over seven feet tall are a protected class.

00:38:06.000 Right.

00:38:06.000 You could have got away with that, even though it's still basically the same thing.

00:38:09.000 It's a preference issue.

00:38:10.000 So I mentioned this to one of my colleagues, and he said to me, oh, you can't say that.

00:38:14.000 You should never have said that.

00:38:16.000 And I said, really?

00:38:16.000 Why?

00:38:17.000 He said, well, you should have said, well, I don't like dating blue or green people. 0.96

00:38:20.000 I'm like, why?

00:38:21.000 They don't exist.

00:38:23.000 There were no blue or green people.

00:38:25.000 Who is that going to resonate with?

00:38:26.000 But what if they start coming along?

00:38:27.000 Around, man.

00:38:28.000 And then they become a protected class, and then someone goes back and looks at what you said ten years ago about blue or green people, and you get fired.

00:38:35.000 And that's how that works.

00:38:36.000 If you look at all this stuff coming out about victimhood culture and how it propagates and how it develops, and that's one of the things.

00:38:43.000 It's called competitive victimhood.

00:38:46.000 Competitive victimhood.

00:38:47.000 That's the formal term of people who study this.

00:38:49.000 I love that term.

00:38:51.000 That's wonderful.

00:38:52.000 When people are fighting over who's a bigger victim.

00:38:55.000 But you see it all the time. 0.95

00:38:56.000 It's like you see people in society, it's like, oh, the Black Lives Matter people go nuts, and then all of a sudden the white supremacists are out and they're like, oh, white people have it hard too. 0.95

00:39:04.000 The second somebody hears, oh, black people have it hard, somebody's got to be like, white people have it hard too. 0.94

00:39:09.000 That's competitive victimhood. 1.00

00:39:10.000 Right.

00:39:10.000 And so then when you have a moral economy, if you will, where you can kind of cash in and gain status or gain access to speaking or whatever it happens to be by holding a certain status of victimhood or grievance, then you're going to find people competing to find ways to get that for themselves.

00:39:29.000 Yes.

00:39:29.000 Right.

00:39:29.000 Everybody's going to go – I mean you have the infrastructure there.

00:39:31.000 Everybody's going to go after trying to maximize their own utility within that.

00:39:35.000 Yeah.

00:39:36.000 So, people over seven feet tall aren't a protected class yet, but the second they realize that they might be able to cash in on it, they might lobby for it.

00:39:44.000 Competitive victimhood.

00:39:45.000 Grievance jockeying, it's been also called.

00:39:47.000 Yeah, I've called it grievance jockeying.

00:39:48.000 I think Gadzad, since you mentioned him, called it the Oppression Olympics.

00:39:50.000 Yep.

00:39:51.000 Yeah, it's wonderful times.

00:39:55.000 It really is.

00:39:56.000 So if you look at the root...

00:39:58.000 So here's the thing that we thought about extensively.

00:40:01.000 If you look at the root, where is this stuff coming from?

00:40:05.000 All of this stuff is coming from the canons of knowledge.

00:40:10.000 They're bodies of literature.

00:40:11.000 They're peer-reviewed.

00:40:13.000 And that's the idea laundering thing again, which we should get to.

00:40:15.000 So all of that stuff is coming from this.

00:40:18.000 And if you want to make...

00:40:20.000 If you want to get back to constructive politics, to get back to people having conversations.

00:40:24.000 And that's the thing.

00:40:25.000 Like, that's, I think, one of the reasons that your show has been so successful is it's a combination of authenticity with you can have – you're totally willing to have conversations with no holds barred, right?

00:40:38.000 You can't have that in the academy.

00:40:39.000 So people need to go to you to hear these thoughts and to wrestle with ideas and to engage.

00:40:46.000 It's just – You can't really do it anywhere else other than a podcast.

00:40:53.000 Well, you can't do it in the Academy.

00:40:54.000 But you can't even do it on the Today Show. 1.00

00:40:56.000 They fired Megyn Kelly for asking why is blackface racist, which is a stupid fucking question, no doubt. 1.00

00:41:04.000 She's not a bright woman in that regard, socially, right? 1.00

00:41:07.000 It's a very clumsy, clunky thing to say.

00:41:10.000 But they just fire her. 1.00

00:41:12.000 They fire her. 1.00

00:41:12.000 What they should have done Was brought in black scholars and black intellectuals for a week. 1.00

00:41:20.000 Just to fucking grill her. 1.00

00:41:21.000 And that would have been amazing television. 0.99

00:41:24.000 But that attitude that you have is not what they have.

00:41:27.000 So they want to punish the transgression.

00:41:30.000 Well, I think they just want to stop hemorrhaging.

00:41:33.000 And I think they didn't like her anyway.

00:41:35.000 Well, that's true.

00:41:36.000 The word is they really didn't enjoy her and that she wasn't a nice person and she was a mean person.

00:41:41.000 But it was a learning moment, right?

00:41:42.000 It was a teaching moment that's lost now.

00:41:44.000 Yes, yes, yes.

00:41:45.000 It's lost.

00:41:46.000 But think about it in terms of what we were talking about earlier, where the scholarship's stretching back again to the 60s.

00:41:51.000 You have this idea that...

00:41:53.000 All of society is constructed out of power dynamics that are mediated through language, media, imagery.

00:41:59.000 And so she just now became problematic.

00:42:02.000 And she put out ideas that would be dangerous and poisonous.

00:42:06.000 Not something to discuss the merits or dismerits of.

00:42:08.000 Not something to work through.

00:42:10.000 Not something as a teachable moment.

00:42:11.000 She put out an idea that's dangerous.

00:42:13.000 She can't put out ideas anymore.

00:42:15.000 Well, you know, it was really interesting, too.

00:42:17.000 She was so disingenuous in how she approached it.

00:42:19.000 It was so obvious. 0.74

00:42:20.000 You know, a black person, why is it wrong for a black person to dress as a white person? 0.95

00:42:25.000 It's not.

00:42:26.000 No one ever said that.

00:42:28.000 Why are you pretending?

00:42:29.000 You're just setting it up so that you could say a white person wearing blackface.

00:42:34.000 Think about the other cultural moment there, too.

00:42:37.000 So, like you said, they bring in black scholars.

00:42:39.000 And at the end of that, she said, you know, I really listened to that.

00:42:41.000 And I didn't know that.

00:42:43.000 And I was wrong.

00:42:44.000 And I'm changing my mind.

00:42:45.000 There was this woman on Twitter that said her video looked, I retweeted it, that it looked like a hostage video.

00:42:50.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:51.000 The only thing that was missing was her holding up a newspaper that showed the date.

00:42:54.000 I saw that, yeah, yeah.

00:42:55.000 Yeah, it's an Australian woman.

00:42:57.000 Yeah.

00:42:58.000 Ah! 0.96

00:42:59.000 The whole thing is so fucking funny. 0.96

00:43:01.000 But that is one of the worst ways to really dissect ideas. 0.91

00:43:07.000 Because first of all, there's a studio audience.

00:43:09.000 That fucks everything up.

00:43:11.000 Second of all, you have these massive time constraints.

00:43:15.000 And then you have advertisers. 0.99

00:43:16.000 Then you have a bunch of executives that are all cowards. 0.98

00:43:19.000 They're all just ready to pull the trigger on anything. 1.00

00:43:21.000 Anytime they can blame you for anything that went wrong and get rid of you or fire you, fire him! 0.98

00:43:27.000 Get rid of him! 1.00

00:43:28.000 Get rid of him! 1.00

00:43:29.000 Bring in the next person. 0.97

00:43:30.000 And then what they'll most likely do is to show they've learned they'll hire an all-black crew.

00:43:38.000 Right.

00:43:38.000 A diverse crew.

00:43:39.000 Yes, that's probably what they're going to do.

00:43:41.000 As a matter of fact, I think I've read...

00:43:43.000 Aren't they doing that?

00:43:45.000 See if they do that.

00:43:46.000 They're replacing Megyn Kelly with a crew of color. 1.00

00:43:51.000 I think it was temporary.

00:43:53.000 Think about where that works, right? 0.98

00:43:55.000 You said they're cowards.

00:43:56.000 They're afraid they're going to damage their brand or whatever it is.

00:43:59.000 Where does that work?

00:44:00.000 Or who works on that?

00:44:01.000 Bullies, right?

00:44:02.000 So these people, why are they so pervasive in the academy?

00:44:05.000 Why are they so pervasive in media?

00:44:07.000 They know they can bully these people.

00:44:08.000 They know that they can go lean on this stuff.

00:44:11.000 And somebody's going to be cowardly, and then they're going to be able to make something change in the direction they want it to change.

00:44:17.000 You see it even creeping into politics.

00:44:19.000 They try to do it with policymakers.

00:44:21.000 You see it a lot more in a lot of other countries.

00:44:23.000 Right now we're in this massive backlash against it in American politics.

00:44:27.000 How's that going?

00:44:28.000 Did 2016 help your progressive agenda gang? 0.99

00:44:32.000 Holy crap. 0.99

00:44:34.000 Well, that is a part of the problem. 0.98

00:44:35.000 What are they saying?

00:44:37.000 Yes.

00:44:37.000 So yeah, look at this.

00:44:39.000 Today, as you know, we're starting a new chapter in the third hour of our show as it evolves.

00:44:44.000 It's evolving. 1.00

00:44:44.000 It's a fucking living being. 1.00

00:44:46.000 We want you to know the entire Today family will continue to bring you informative and important stories just as we always have. 1.00

00:44:53.000 And look, two black guys and a brown chick. 1.00

00:44:58.000 That's 100% diverse.

00:45:00.000 We got rid of the ice princess. 1.00

00:45:02.000 It's all diverse.

00:45:02.000 That's the thing.

00:45:03.000 The way that diversity is defined, if you had a panel that was just black guys, it would be 100% diverse.

00:45:10.000 Yeah, so they've redefined the word diversity.

00:45:12.000 They've redefined the word inclusion.

00:45:14.000 But to people outside the academy, they think, oh, diversity, it's a great thing, right?

00:45:19.000 But that's not what it means.

00:45:21.000 It means kind of when everybody has the same ideas about something.

00:45:25.000 Right.

00:45:26.000 It's also, if you're enforcing diversity, we would have to find out, like ultimately the goal is to find out what causes people to succeed, and especially succeeding in something as benign as talking,

00:45:44.000 right?

00:45:45.000 You're just talking.

00:45:46.000 That's all you're doing.

00:45:46.000 So what causes someone to succeed in talking?

00:45:49.000 What makes their ideas valuable?

00:45:51.000 What makes them someone you enjoy listening to?

00:45:53.000 And then finding what impediments there are to that in all the various communities and fix it at the root level.

00:46:02.000 What doesn't work is saying, we need one Chinese lady, we need one black guy, and we need one white guy. 1.00

00:46:10.000 Because if you do something like that, you're not going to get the best show.

00:46:13.000 Nope.

00:46:14.000 Or you're not going to get the best anything.

00:46:16.000 Well, you're not even guaranteed to achieve the goal you're claiming.

00:46:18.000 So, again, it goes back to theory.

00:46:20.000 And theory, I mean theory in terms of postmodern critical theory that this stuff's all based in that we studied...

00:46:26.000 The idea is that if you have a particular identity, now you have a particular view of the world, and people of other identities have different ones.

00:46:33.000 And in fact, there's this whole thing called standpoint epistemology that says that if you have a marginalized identity, you know more about the world than other people because you live in two worlds at once.

00:46:43.000 So the idea is, oh, if we get a black guy in here, he's had a different life experience.

00:46:48.000 Therefore, he can speak truly to that.

00:46:50.000 If you get a Chinese lady in here, she can speak to that, so on and so forth. 1.00

00:46:54.000 So the guess is that by virtue merely of bringing in people who look different with different races or genders or sexes or sexualities, then you automatically get a diverse set of opinions.

00:47:08.000 But that doesn't work.

00:47:10.000 That's not how that actually works.

00:47:11.000 You could take people of every race, educate them on the exact same social justice curriculum, and they all think exactly the same thing.

00:47:18.000 But at least in something like hosting the Today Show, you are just talking.

00:47:23.000 Once you put these sort of diversity standards to something like mathematics, that's when things get super squirrely.

00:47:29.000 Yeah, they're trying to do that a little bit.

00:47:31.000 You retweeted that thing I wrote about mathematics, and they wanted people to sign an equity, which is another word that they've co-opted.

00:47:39.000 They wanted folks to sign an equity statement and a diversity statement.

00:47:42.000 And the thing is – Well, explain that.

00:47:43.000 Explain what they're trying to – that you have a commitment to diversity.

00:47:47.000 Yeah, you have a commitment to diversity and you have a commitment to equity.

00:47:52.000 And so equity does not mean treating people equity.

00:47:55.000 It's not like you have a commitment to equality, which is – we should all have a commitment to equality.

00:48:01.000 Equity is defined differently.

00:48:03.000 It's – To make up for past injustices or to make up for some deficiency that has occurred somewhere along the line.

00:48:14.000 Yeah.

00:48:15.000 Affirmative action is an equity movement.

00:48:17.000 It's to treat people differently in order to level the playing field.

00:48:20.000 Yeah.

00:48:20.000 So it's not treating people equally, and that's the key thing.

00:48:25.000 It sounds like it is, but it's not.

00:48:26.000 It's a word that they've smuggled in.

00:48:29.000 Straight out of the literature again.

00:48:30.000 It's again, all the stuff comes back to the literature.

00:48:33.000 So if you look at the word equity in the dictionary, you get one definition.

00:48:37.000 But if you look at the word equity as they're applying it, Yeah, in sociological definitions, it's a very specific thing that means something slightly different from what people assume it means.

00:48:47.000 So here's the question you should ask somebody.

00:48:49.000 Anytime you hear someone use the word equity, just ask, oh, I'm curious, why didn't you use the word equality?

00:48:55.000 Can you think of a – would the sentence be the same?

00:48:59.000 Would the meaning be the same?

00:49:00.000 Well, the meaning is not the same.

00:49:01.000 That's why they used equity and not equality.

00:49:03.000 Well, equity is a finance word.

00:49:05.000 That's why it's weird.

00:49:06.000 Equity is also a finance.

00:49:06.000 Yeah.

00:49:07.000 So they don't make up new words, right?

00:49:09.000 They co-opt.

00:49:10.000 Yeah, they co-opt.

00:49:11.000 They change, and then they smuggle diversity, inclusion.

00:49:14.000 Yeah.

00:49:15.000 And they write these academic papers, and they come up with these ideas.

00:49:18.000 They start with their conclusion.

00:49:19.000 They push it through.

00:49:20.000 It gets published.

00:49:21.000 And it's like the academic equivalent of money laundering.

00:49:24.000 Yes.

00:49:25.000 Right?

00:49:25.000 So how does money laundering work?

00:49:27.000 Yes.

00:49:27.000 You take some money, you got ill-gotten money, you put it through this shell company or this thing or the other thing, and it comes back to you, and now it's had a legal trail that makes it legit, right?

00:49:38.000 Well, here you take some prejudice, you write it down as an academic paper, you publish the thing, it gets the academic stamp on it, it's the gold standard of knowledge now, and now this prejudice you started with now looks like legitimate knowledge that can go straight in the classroom, it can go straight to accurate.

00:49:55.000 It's a real problem.

00:49:57.000 It's really funny, though, that you're saying it's like academic money laundering.

00:50:00.000 It is.

00:50:01.000 It is.

00:50:02.000 That's Brett Weinstein said that.

00:50:04.000 Brett Weinstein said that.

00:50:06.000 And that's what it is.

00:50:07.000 It comes out the other side as knowledge.

00:50:09.000 So then they think they have knowledge.

00:50:11.000 Our paper about the dildos, the guy said, this paper is an important contribution to knowledge.

00:50:16.000 Yeah.

00:50:17.000 Who said that?

00:50:18.000 The reviewer one, I think.

00:50:19.000 The reviewer one. 1.00

00:50:20.000 Who the fuck are you? 1.00

00:50:22.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:50:22.000 Important contribution to knowledge. 0.99

00:50:24.000 I would hope reviewer one was just hitting a bong right before he wrote that.

00:50:28.000 Just baked out of his mind, laughing at the whole thing. 0.98

00:50:32.000 What kind of person gets attracted to wholeheartedly agreeing to these ridiculous ideas? 0.83

00:50:40.000 What are the people like? 0.84

00:50:43.000 It's a great question.

00:50:44.000 I think it's people who want to save the world.

00:50:46.000 Well, I think we'd all like to save the world.

00:50:48.000 I'm much more cynical than you.

00:50:50.000 Yeah, they've got a...

00:50:52.000 No, they've got this idea that...

00:50:58.000 I mean, we talked a moment ago about privilege, and we kind of brushed real close to the idea that it fits kind of like original sin.

00:51:06.000 And so they see that...

00:51:08.000 The downside of privilege, the opposite side, discrimination or racism, sexism, et cetera.

00:51:13.000 Hate is the big word, you know, fight hate.

00:51:16.000 He's using hate.

00:51:17.000 This is hate speech.

00:51:18.000 That's where I think they got the term.

00:51:20.000 That's like the evil thing.

00:51:22.000 You're born with privilege.

00:51:23.000 That's like original sin.

00:51:24.000 So what do they want to do?

00:51:26.000 They want to save the world by clearing out the evil of privilege, by clearing out hate from the world.

00:51:32.000 For them, utopia means nobody hates, and by hate we mean something like racism, sexism, etc.

00:51:38.000 So it's a noble idea, but then when you start looking at it in this ridiculous way, you're born with privilege and now you're just stuck with it.

00:51:46.000 Right?

00:51:46.000 What can you do?

00:51:47.000 It's original sin.

00:51:48.000 You can be sorry for it.

00:51:49.000 You can try to be an ally and work it off.

00:51:51.000 You can check it, whatever the hell that means.

00:51:53.000 You can do a lot of things, but you can't actually atone for it.

00:51:56.000 You can't get over it.

00:51:57.000 You can't get rid of it.

00:51:59.000 Then you get the situation where it's like they really, really need to take desperate measures like let's lock it all down.

00:52:06.000 Let's...

00:52:06.000 We're good to go.

00:52:09.000 We're good to go.

00:52:17.000 We're good to go.

00:52:24.000 And this is the thing, right?

00:52:26.000 I think in the past couple of years, of course, before Trump it wasn't – they had other avatars.

00:52:30.000 I think there's a lot of anger and frustration, justifiably so, at Trump.

00:52:34.000 And they see this.

00:52:35.000 And so I read so many other – usually op-eds, not their academic pieces.

00:52:39.000 And it's like, men are like this.

00:52:41.000 Men are blah, blah, blah. 0.88

00:52:41.000 And you can tell they're just talking about Trump. 0.88

00:52:43.000 But they can't touch him, so they're pissed off and they try to take it out on all men.

00:52:47.000 I think that's like a huge thing.

00:52:48.000 They see these problems.

00:52:49.000 They exaggerate the problems.

00:52:50.000 They practice problematizing.

00:52:52.000 And that's a thing, right?

00:52:53.000 They practice this stuff.

00:52:54.000 You go to school.

00:52:55.000 It's in the general ed curriculum.

00:52:57.000 Maybe they major in this stuff.

00:52:59.000 You get good at finding problems.

00:53:01.000 I was just talking yesterday.

00:53:03.000 I got to Los Angeles a couple times before, but I've never been to the beach.

00:53:07.000 I never actually made it down.

00:53:08.000 So I went down to Santa Monica.

00:53:09.000 I go to one of these burger places right by the pier, and it says that this is the burger that made Santa Monica famous.

00:53:17.000 And immediately, you saw the Hot Ones thing, right?

00:53:20.000 I was like, there's a paper in this.

00:53:21.000 You see the problems.

00:53:23.000 Here you have this manly double cheeseburger.

00:53:25.000 Being marketed, that's what made Santa Monica famous?

00:53:28.000 Oh, so manly food culture is the kind of like colonialism that goes and makes a city become a city.

00:53:35.000 It makes a place into a place.

00:53:37.000 And I could write a paper about that in three days.

00:53:39.000 Do you have to have credentials to write a paper?

00:53:41.000 Do you have to have a PhD?

00:53:43.000 No, technically not.

00:53:43.000 And that's a sad thing because their response to this has been, oh, we're going to screen better to see who is actually writing these papers so they can't trick us.

00:53:52.000 Well, how could they possibly trick you?

00:53:54.000 The point is that scholarship is that it should stand on its merits.

00:53:57.000 If the argument's solid, if the research is good, and they thought our research was good.

00:54:01.000 That's my point about the dog-humping thing.

00:54:04.000 They should leave it the way it is if they're saying that this is such an important piece.

00:54:09.000 Right.

00:54:09.000 Well, I mean, I would walk back on that one because we did make up the data.

00:54:13.000 And falsifying data is not cool.

00:54:15.000 Well, what data would be incorrect?

00:54:18.000 Oh, we didn't even go to the dog park.

00:54:21.000 We definitely didn't ask anybody about their dogs or their genitals or anything.

00:54:24.000 I bet you could have and achieved similar results.

00:54:27.000 We said that there's a dog crapping on another dog's head in the paper, and that didn't happen.

00:54:32.000 I'm sure that didn't happen.

00:54:33.000 Maybe it did happen.

00:54:34.000 I don't know.

00:54:35.000 I mean, this stuff is insane.

00:54:36.000 But we had other papers that didn't do that.

00:54:38.000 Fat bodybuilding didn't do that. 1.00

00:54:40.000 The one that's the one that jokes on you didn't do that.

00:54:42.000 There's no made-up data in most of our papers.

00:54:44.000 And why shouldn't those stand?

00:54:47.000 Why shouldn't they stand by those?

00:54:48.000 I can get it. 0.85

00:54:49.000 Because they can't differentiate real scholarship from bullshit because they're in this crazy ecosystem in which their ability to make discerning judgments about things has been dulled because they put an agenda before the truth. 0.95

00:55:02.000 I keep seeing all these academics coming like they get their gotcha moment on us. 0.96

00:55:05.000 They're like, ah, I read your paper.

00:55:06.000 It's actually a real paper.

00:55:07.000 It's good.

00:55:08.000 Yeah, how crazy is that? 1.00

00:55:09.000 It's like, yeah, thanks for noticing, you know, asshole. 1.00

00:55:12.000 That's exactly what we were trying to do. 1.00

00:55:14.000 We weren't writing just stupid pranks. 0.98

00:55:16.000 The dog park paper is pretty funny, but we were actually trying to learn what's going on there. 0.96

00:55:19.000 Thanks for noticing.

00:55:21.000 Somebody finally did. 0.99

00:55:22.000 But that means, of course, they don't want to admit that we actually learned this stuff because then when we say it's shit, they're stuck with somebody who knows what they're talking about saying it sucks. 0.99

00:55:30.000 And they don't want that either. 0.97

00:55:33.000 Now, when you said there's people that are trying to save the world, what do you really mean by that?

00:55:38.000 I think they're the people who are trying to build the kingdom of God on the planet Earth.

00:55:42.000 To draw a metaphor, a religious metaphor, they're people who see an evil and they want to purge the world of that evil by any means necessary.

00:55:50.000 And the evil being like… Privilege.

00:55:53.000 Privilege, yeah. 0.99

00:55:53.000 Hate, white supremacy. 0.99

00:55:55.000 It's the new religion. 1.00

00:55:56.000 Patriarchy. 0.93

00:55:57.000 So as Christianity goes down, it's just Game of Thrones. 0.95

00:56:00.000 The only reason you need new gods are because people don't believe in the old gods.

00:56:03.000 Right.

00:56:04.000 And so we have these religious modules or what have you in our brain, and the new religion is intersectionality.

00:56:10.000 And we see… And that really is what it is, right?

00:56:13.000 Exactly.

00:56:13.000 That's exactly what it is.

00:56:14.000 We've been writing about that and talking about that for years now.

00:56:18.000 I've been studying religious psychology for years, and it's all over the place in this.

00:56:22.000 It is political correctness is paralleled with blasphemy.

00:56:26.000 It's the same thing.

00:56:27.000 Even the parallels of heresy.

00:56:28.000 That's exactly right.

00:56:30.000 Heresy.

00:56:30.000 I mean, it's so stunning how easily people sort of slide into these preconditioned slots.

00:56:38.000 Here's the one difference, and I think this is a key difference.

00:56:42.000 The reason that it's easier—and I mentioned this to Pendleton when we did a talk, and he just couldn't believe it—the reason that it's easier to talk to a Christian, for example, about faith or about their religion is because at the end of the day, it comes down to faith.

00:56:58.000 These people don't have any faith.

00:57:00.000 They have knowledge, quote-unquote.

00:57:02.000 They have their bodies of scholarly literature which were idea laundered.

00:57:06.000 That's what they have.

00:57:07.000 So they can point to these things and say, well, I don't have any faith.

00:57:10.000 I know.

00:57:11.000 How do you know?

00:57:12.000 Well, Robin DiAngelo's white fragility.

00:57:14.000 How do you know?

00:57:14.000 There's a study.

00:57:15.000 There's a study.

00:57:15.000 Yeah, there's a study.

00:57:16.000 There's a study.

00:57:17.000 There's a study.

00:57:17.000 Well, I know how some of those studies are written, and I don't trust them.

00:57:21.000 And you shouldn't trust them either.

00:57:23.000 Yeah.

00:57:24.000 Well, you see that, I mean, even in nutrition, you see it in everything, in terms of almost a religious or religion-like acceptance of specific ways of eating or specific ways of communicating, specific ways of being.

00:57:40.000 It's just so strange how people seem to have this natural inclination to adopt predetermined patterns of behavior.

00:57:49.000 Yeah, I think actually there's a pretty decent understanding of that from the perspective of moral psychology.

00:57:55.000 You've got this idea that somebody has seen something as good, so it elevates them, it makes them better.

00:58:00.000 So clean eating might be good, right?

00:58:02.000 Whatever clean eating means, for some people it's vegan.

00:58:04.000 For some people it's like all you eat is grass-fed beef.

00:58:07.000 Who knows?

00:58:08.000 But you've got clean eating and you've got dirty eating and you go into the clean thing.

00:58:11.000 And so you've got this kind of like purity thing, and eventually you take this so seriously that it becomes kind of a sacred value to you.

00:58:18.000 Well, what's sacred mean?

00:58:19.000 You know, we have this kind of vague sense, oh, you know, holy, this, that, that's sacred, and it's something really important to somebody.

00:58:26.000 Well, what it really means is that it's taken on so much moral importance to somebody that they no longer will allow it to be questioned.

00:58:32.000 When something's sacred, it's now been removed from the sphere of being doubted, questioned, or whatever.

00:58:36.000 And so when you have this idea like that...

00:58:42.000 Let's say that privilege is the cause of racism and you've elevated that – the problem with everything in society even – and you've elevated that to like a sacred value that can't be questioned.

00:58:53.000 You can't say maybe there's another dimension to it.

00:58:57.000 That's when you start getting these kind of religious-like behaviors.

00:58:59.000 You start getting these problems because you've got a place where it can't be A, questioned, B, made fun of.

00:59:05.000 We were talking about the comedy earlier.

00:59:06.000 This is killing comedy, right?

00:59:08.000 It's absolutely killing comedy because you can't make a joke because if the joke goes a little bit wrong… Now you've committed a heresy. 0.97

00:59:15.000 You're a blasphemer.

00:59:17.000 Yes, but no.

00:59:18.000 Because people love when you go against it.

00:59:21.000 That's true.

00:59:22.000 The weight of it is there, but when you resist it, people scream and throw their hands up.

00:59:28.000 Yes, yes, yes.

00:59:29.000 So this is really interesting, because if we take the theory about humor at face value, right, that you can only go against a power thing.

00:59:36.000 So we say, okay, you know what?

00:59:37.000 We wrote one of our papers.

00:59:38.000 The jokes on you is about that.

00:59:39.000 Let's say they're right.

00:59:41.000 Why do people love it?

00:59:42.000 Well, it's because everybody knows these guys have power.

00:59:45.000 They're trying to pretend that they don't have power, that they're the victims, they're the oppressed.

00:59:49.000 Meanwhile, they're bullying everybody into everything.

00:59:51.000 They're firing people for saying the wrong thing in class, you know, whatever it is.

00:59:55.000 That's only possible if they have power.

00:59:57.000 And the joke, when South Park makes fun of, like, what was it, PC Principal or whatever?

01:00:01.000 When South Park makes fun of that, the only reason people laugh, if their theory is right, is because they're powerful.

01:00:08.000 If their theory is wrong, because it's just funny, then we can talk about something different.

01:00:11.000 But if they're actually right, if they're actually making a point here, they're not recognizing that they're admitting that they have seized a lot of cultural power.

01:00:20.000 And that's why people celebrate when you go back against stuff.

01:00:23.000 That's why people have sent us so many emails like, this is the greatest thing ever.

01:00:26.000 Thank you so much for doing this. 0.97

01:00:27.000 There's all this shit like, you guys are heroes, blah, blah, blah. 0.96

01:00:30.000 Why? 0.99

01:00:31.000 Because they wanted to see you laughed.

01:00:32.000 Why?

01:00:33.000 Because it's funny as hell is why.

01:00:35.000 And why?

01:00:35.000 Because these people are...

01:00:38.000 Yeah.

01:00:53.000 Because they have real impact.

01:00:55.000 They have real impact, yeah.

01:00:56.000 And that's one of the things that we really want to convey to people, is that what happens in the academy does not stay in the academy.

01:01:02.000 No, it's spread.

01:01:03.000 It's spread throughout the world now.

01:01:05.000 And I've read some articles about some things that we've said on this show that are just fucking completely preposterous and taken totally out of context and presented as some evidence of whatever transgression that's impossible to defend.

01:01:22.000 It's very strange.

01:01:23.000 It's a very strange time for communication.

01:01:26.000 It's a very strange time for ideas.

01:01:29.000 But I also think it's really exciting.

01:01:30.000 It's exciting that all this nonsense is going on.

01:01:33.000 That's one of the things that I really loved about what you guys have done.

01:01:35.000 It's exciting. 1.00

01:01:37.000 It's exciting that you guys have infiltrated and had these fucking dummies not just publish your shit, but praise it. 1.00

01:01:45.000 And say how amazing it is that you wrote a bit about fat bodybuilding. 1.00

01:01:54.000 I mean, fat acceptance is this one, fat shaming and fat acceptance.

01:01:59.000 They're two preposterous phrases.

01:02:00.000 They really are.

01:02:02.000 You know, I mean, you shouldn't be mean to people.

01:02:04.000 That's it.

01:02:05.000 But fat shaming because someone's fat?

01:02:08.000 No, you can't call me fat.

01:02:11.000 Because I'm not fat.

01:02:11.000 It doesn't work.

01:02:12.000 It's real similar.

01:02:13.000 So that body of literature, here's something that I learned when I read this, is they don't use the word obesity because, this is really interesting, because obesity, it gets back to what Jim was saying, obesity is a narrative.

01:02:27.000 It's just a story.

01:02:28.000 So they use the word fat.

01:02:30.000 Excuse me.

01:02:31.000 So there's not obesity bodybuilding, there's fat bodybuilding.

01:02:34.000 And there are all these narratives.

01:02:35.000 So why would one want to buy into one narrative rather than another narrative?

01:02:41.000 Why is fat okay and obesity bad?

01:02:43.000 Ah, because obesity is a medicalized narrative.

01:02:47.000 That's right.

01:02:48.000 Whereas fat is just a description.

01:02:49.000 So they're rejecting medicalized terms.

01:02:52.000 Well, they call it healthism.

01:02:54.000 I'm not making that up.

01:02:55.000 What?

01:02:56.000 Healthism is a narrative.

01:02:57.000 It's a power structure where healthy and thin people are imposing their view of how body should be on fat and unhealthy people. 1.00

01:03:07.000 And there's thin privilege.

01:03:07.000 Like, they'd look at you, and you've got all the...

01:03:10.000 You know, because you're muscular, too, so you wouldn't just be straight, white, heterosexual, cis, etc.

01:03:15.000 You've got health privilege and...

01:03:16.000 You've got health privilege.

01:03:17.000 Fitness privilege, probably.

01:03:19.000 Fitness privilege.

01:03:20.000 Also an ableist.

01:03:21.000 Ableist, you've got that privilege. 0.99

01:03:22.000 It falls into the ableism.

01:03:24.000 It's not good for you.

01:03:25.000 Yeah, it falls into that.

01:03:27.000 Health privilege?

01:03:28.000 That's real?

01:03:29.000 That's a real one they're using?

01:03:30.000 And they also claim to be the healthy at every size movement.

01:03:34.000 You can be healthy at every size, and obesity is just a medicalized narrative.

01:03:38.000 Yeah, and that's really important, though, because the point of that is to say, if your doctor tells you you're fat and it's a health concern, then you don't have to listen.

01:03:47.000 Yeah, that is a...

01:03:48.000 I've read that before.

01:03:50.000 And I read an article by this woman who was morbidly obese. 1.00

01:03:53.000 Charlotte Cooper?

01:03:54.000 I don't know what her name was.

01:03:56.000 But she was talking...

01:03:57.000 She was also using... 1.00

01:03:58.000 Really misusing some studies on...

01:04:02.000 There was some...

01:04:04.000 There have been some studies on people who are overweight and that there could possibly be some health benefits to being overweight.

01:04:14.000 These studies have been widely dismissed now.

01:04:17.000 Not only dismissed, but they go in direct contrast to the great volume of studies that show how terrible it is for your health to be that fat and that heavy.

01:04:30.000 This person, I don't remember who it was or why she was doing this, but she was clinging to these one or two studies that have been dismissed.

01:04:39.000 These are biased epidemiological studies that have been dismissed.

01:04:43.000 But she was putting them in this blog as if this is some sort of evidence that not only is it not unhealthy to be fat, but it might be healthy to be fat.

01:04:53.000 And now think about this person in an academic position as a professor teaching young people this, particularly younger.

01:05:00.000 Particularly young girls who might have eating disorders.

01:05:03.000 Exactly.

01:05:04.000 Health, a white privilege?

01:05:06.000 What?

01:05:06.000 Oh my god, is this real?

01:05:08.000 Is this a real paper?

01:05:09.000 This is definitely real.

01:05:10.000 Oh my god.

01:05:10.000 This is how this stuff goes, man.

01:05:12.000 They think it's like when the doctor says you're overweight, it's a concern for your health.

01:05:17.000 They see that as a form of fat shaming, saying that they're not alright the way that they are.

01:05:21.000 They're not being accepted the way that they are.

01:05:22.000 There's a power dynamic that healthy people are imposing upon overweight people.

01:05:26.000 They have myriad issues that they come up with.

01:05:30.000 Sure, some of these complaints have got to be somewhat real.

01:05:32.000 They don't make as many oversized clothes, plus-size clothes.

01:05:36.000 It's harder to get styles.

01:05:37.000 There's some legit stuff that they might want to say, hey, can we do something about this?

01:05:43.000 But on the other hand, the whole thing, saying that it has nothing to do with health, it has nothing to do with your triglyceride levels, It's anti-evidence.

01:05:54.000 It runs in the face of every conceivable piece of evidence.

01:05:57.000 They're teaching kids this.

01:05:59.000 They're in schools.

01:06:00.000 And there are classes.

01:06:01.000 Fat studies classes.

01:06:02.000 And there's an actual...

01:06:03.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:06:04.000 There's fat studies?

01:06:05.000 There's fat studies.

01:06:06.000 Yeah, that's the journal that published the fat bodybuilding.

01:06:08.000 The journal is fat studies.

01:06:09.000 Jamie's going to bring it up.

01:06:10.000 The journal...

01:06:12.000 I told you, Pete.

01:06:13.000 I told you 30 million people are waiting to find out.

01:06:15.000 Fat studies.

01:06:15.000 An interdisciplinary journal of body, weight, and society.

01:06:19.000 And this is what Jim was telling me.

01:06:21.000 He's like, when we do this, 30 million people are going to now know that there's something fat studies.

01:06:25.000 Now, fat studies doesn't do what you think it does.

01:06:27.000 You probably think, oh, fat studies, what are triglycerides?

01:06:30.000 How much should you exercise?

01:06:32.000 What's a good diet?

01:06:33.000 How much sugar is too much sugar?

01:06:34.000 Well, that is absolutely not what this journal does.

01:06:38.000 Frozen.

01:06:38.000 A fat tale of immigration.

01:06:39.000 What the hell? 0.88

01:06:40.000 Crafting weight stigma. 0.75

01:06:42.000 Hold on a second.

01:06:44.000 Crafting weight stigma in slimming classes?

01:06:47.000 A case study in Ireland?

01:06:49.000 So I'm telling you, you go to a slimming class, you're going to go lose weight, you take a fitness class or something, whatever slimming classes are.

01:06:55.000 Fatness and temporality.

01:06:56.000 And they use a stigma against being fat.

01:06:58.000 They basically say fat's bad for you.

01:07:00.000 Look at this one!

01:07:01.000 Theorizing fat oppression intersectional Approaches and methodological innovations. 0.98

01:07:08.000 You just said a bunch of nonsense.

01:07:10.000 The oppression of fat people is built into institutions pervades the cultural landscape and affects – dude, we could have written this – it affects the relationship and perceptions of people of size.

01:07:19.000 It is its introduction to the special issue on – I love people of size is now the new people of color. 0.93

01:07:24.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:07:25.000 Fat is the new black.

01:07:26.000 Parallel. 1.00

01:07:26.000 People of color is a problem now, too. 1.00

01:07:28.000 You can't say people of color?

01:07:30.000 Well, you can, but you see there's people of color and then there's BIPOC, which I don't know how you pronounce it.

01:07:35.000 I don't know if it's BIPOC or what, but that would be black and indigenous people of color because they have even more oppression than the other people of color and they've got to fight over who gets...

01:07:43.000 More than yellow people of color? 1.00

01:07:45.000 Yeah, for example, or probably brown.

01:07:47.000 Is that why Harvard can discriminate against Asians that are trying to get in?

01:07:50.000 Let's tap our noses and just move on, right?

01:07:53.000 So...

01:07:55.000 But then that's even a problem because indigenous has recently been branded a racist term because you're not actually honoring, yeah, you're not hitting the actual tribal identity.

01:08:04.000 If you get right on the cutting edge of the stuff, it's like really going into meltdown mode.

01:08:08.000 Indigenous is because it's too random? 1.00

01:08:10.000 Well, yeah, you're generalizing.

01:08:13.000 Because you're not saying Cherokee, Javajo, Nez Perce, yeah, okay. 0.98

01:08:18.000 So you can see, again, the competitive victimhood going on.

01:08:20.000 Who gets to claim more of the victimhood pie? 0.96

01:08:23.000 And, oh, now we've got this thing about people of color, so they get victimhood status.

01:08:28.000 But if that goes to all people of color equally, that's not fair, because these people of color are even more discriminated against, so they should get more of it.

01:08:35.000 It's really, they're fighting over a piece of a pie of victimhood-ness.

01:08:41.000 I love the Canadian term, First Nations.

01:08:43.000 First Nation people, it's a better term. 1.00

01:08:46.000 Because really, fucking every single human being that came to North America came from somewhere else. 0.98

01:08:53.000 So speaking of which, in the sense we're talking about in the fat bodybuilding paper, I put I put in a Star Trek reference at the end. 0.99

01:09:00.000 I love Star Trek.

01:09:01.000 I put in something like, fat bodybuilding is the final frontier for fat activism.

01:09:05.000 Oh, they didn't like that.

01:09:06.000 No, they didn't like that.

01:09:07.000 They said it was...

01:09:08.000 They said that we couldn't use the word frontier because it evokes imagery of the genocides.

01:09:14.000 Of the Native Americans.

01:09:16.000 To choose a different word.

01:09:18.000 Yeah.

01:09:19.000 Frontier. 1.00

01:09:20.000 Holy shit. 1.00

01:09:21.000 Think about Frontier Airlines, right? 1.00

01:09:22.000 What's up with them?

01:09:23.000 They're in trouble. 1.00

01:09:23.000 They're fucked. 1.00

01:09:24.000 Your whole worldview is so utterly distorted and twisted, and the things you believe are totally untethered to reality, but yet you believe there's knowledge. 1.00

01:09:32.000 You believe it's knowledge because it's published.

01:09:33.000 And think about what it does to the students that pick this stuff up.

01:09:36.000 You go to college, you pick this up, you start majoring in it.

01:09:38.000 You could be majoring in something where you actually learn to do critical thinking to engage with ideas.

01:09:43.000 If you're disadvantaged going into college, that's your best chance to get out of that situation is to grapple with great critical thinking, learn some great skills, whether that's, you know, engineering and the sciences, something like that, whether it's even if it's you want to get into,

01:09:59.000 like, studying race and sociology, soft sciences, or you want to get into just literature.

01:10:04.000 Do it honestly and you're going to get somewhere.

01:10:06.000 But you get into this stuff where you can literally just make up your conclusions.

01:10:09.000 What are you doing?

01:10:10.000 You're teaching these people how to think about problems.

01:10:12.000 They're seeing, you know, the burger in the Santa Monica Pier is a problem now.

01:10:15.000 I see it everywhere I go after I did this for a year.

01:10:18.000 So you get the people in the habit of seeing problems everywhere.

01:10:21.000 Are you helping them?

01:10:22.000 Are you guys going to write a book about this or anything?

01:10:25.000 Yeah, we might one day.

01:10:26.000 I don't know.

01:10:27.000 It's a great idea for a book.

01:10:28.000 The hard part is we could actually probably write ten books.

01:10:31.000 So condensing it down to a book, usually you've got an idea and you've got to blow it up to a book.

01:10:36.000 We have to condense this down to a book.

01:10:38.000 I think talking about the problem, like just explaining what you've already explained on this podcast and actually having those studies that you did publish and the whole thought process behind creating them would be a great book.

01:10:52.000 Well, we've got a documentary happening about it.

01:10:55.000 Mike Naina is a documentarian from Australia that got hooked up with us.

01:11:01.000 Is he a white male?

01:11:02.000 He's not.

01:11:02.000 He's brown.

01:11:03.000 He's half black.

01:11:05.000 He's half black. 1.00

01:11:05.000 Watch out. 1.00

01:11:06.000 Tell him how we met Mike.

01:11:07.000 Oh, yeah.

01:11:07.000 So it's interesting because we were starting out this project and then we ended up We couldn't talk to anybody about it.

01:11:15.000 It's so hard to keep a fucking secret this big, right?

01:11:18.000 You just want to tell people, like, you aren't going to believe what I'm doing. 0.98

01:11:20.000 Can't tell anybody.

01:11:22.000 So we find a few trusted friends. 0.70

01:11:24.000 We're telling this one guy, a buddy of ours, and he's like, oh my god, I know a documentarian who's investigating all this shit going on in the universities already. 0.76

01:11:33.000 He's already interested.

01:11:34.000 Would you guys be interested?

01:11:35.000 This would be a compelling documentary.

01:11:36.000 Would you guys be interested in talking to him?

01:11:38.000 So we get in touch with him, and he's like, listen.

01:11:44.000 You know, I'll shoot this.

01:11:45.000 I think there's a film here.

01:11:46.000 I think you're going to ruin your careers.

01:11:48.000 That's what I'm going to film.

01:11:48.000 But in any case, I'll film this.

01:11:50.000 But here's the deal.

01:11:51.000 I'm only going to shoot it if you commit 100% to transparency.

01:11:55.000 Let me tell the full story, honestly, what's really happening.

01:11:58.000 You know, we don't get to sugarcoat anything and make you guys look good.

01:12:02.000 And of course, he thought we were just going to crash and burn and ruin our lives.

01:12:04.000 Yeah, that's what he told us later.

01:12:05.000 He's like, the only reason I agreed to this is that I was sure that you guys were going to torpedo your careers.

01:12:09.000 Like, positive.

01:12:10.000 Yeah.

01:12:10.000 Yeah, and so he thought it was, you know, going to be that, and he'd have to, like, convince us to let him show it, because we wouldn't want to.

01:12:18.000 But does he know that you don't work in academia anymore?

01:12:20.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:21.000 But we were doing the project, so we reached out to him and said, well, through the mutual friend.

01:12:25.000 How would it ruin your career?

01:12:27.000 Well, I maybe would never get another job if I wanted to go back into academia, for example.

01:12:32.000 I mean, it hasn't happened yet, but you see people who do academic misconduct get banned from ever publishing academic papers again.

01:12:40.000 That could still come down for me.

01:12:42.000 I don't know.

01:12:42.000 It probably won't, but it might.

01:12:44.000 And if it does, then if I try to get a job working for a think tank or a university or anything that depends on that, I'm locked out of that now.

01:12:53.000 So...

01:12:55.000 Especially who's going to ruin Pete's career, too.

01:12:57.000 Let's be honest.

01:12:57.000 He works in not just the university, but Portland State.

01:13:01.000 It's like ground zero.

01:13:02.000 Do you think it's over for you?

01:13:03.000 I don't know.

01:13:04.000 I don't know what's going to happen.

01:13:05.000 The people, when it's over for sure, they're always like, I'm not sure.

01:13:09.000 I don't know.

01:13:10.000 Yeah, I don't know what's going to happen.

01:13:11.000 I don't know.

01:13:12.000 It's best not to prognosticate too much with all this stuff.

01:13:16.000 You see, now, we talked about Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying.

01:13:20.000 They got firebombed, right?

01:13:23.000 Their thing just blew the hell up.

01:13:25.000 And then they got pushed out of their jobs.

01:13:27.000 But in a sense, it's like, I don't know, I was talking to them when we were in Portland, and it feels like they kind of took the fall.

01:13:32.000 And people are like, whoa, that's too far?

01:13:34.000 And I don't know if that's the case or not, but if so, maybe...

01:13:37.000 Well, what's too far?

01:13:38.000 Like, pushing people out of their jobs, like students patrolling the campus with bats trying to find Brett to pull him out of his car if he showed up?

01:13:45.000 Yeah.

01:13:45.000 Like, I don't care who you are, that's too far.

01:13:47.000 I mean, that's not even civil society anymore.

01:13:49.000 Well, who thought that was too far, though?

01:13:50.000 The students did?

01:13:51.000 Not there, but a lot of people, like, people saw this stuff.

01:13:55.000 Like, did you think it was too far, right?

01:13:57.000 I thought it was insane.

01:13:58.000 I thought the government should have come in and shut down the school. 0.99

01:14:00.000 Yeah, tons of people around, I mean, like, everyday people who saw this story think, whoa, shit, this stuff's gone too far. 0.99

01:14:07.000 The fact that they're allowing that guy to remain as president is absolutely nuts. 0.99

01:14:10.000 It's absolutely nuts.

01:14:12.000 When there was that scene in the, wherever it was, conference room, or wherever it was, when the kids were telling him to put his hands down, because he was being aggressive with his hands, Yeah.

01:14:21.000 And he puts his hands down, and they start laughing.

01:14:23.000 Yep. 0.99

01:14:23.000 It's like, what in the fuck is this? 0.99

01:14:26.000 It is a system set up to where you can't win, is what it is, deliberately. 0.99

01:14:29.000 But it's hilarious.

01:14:30.000 Well, it is.

01:14:31.000 They were laughing at him.

01:14:32.000 He put his hands down.

01:14:34.000 They're like, stop making hand gestures.

01:14:35.000 You're being aggressive.

01:14:37.000 He puts his hands down, they start laughing at him.

01:14:39.000 I didn't find it funny, I find it terrifying.

01:14:41.000 I find it terrifying for what it means for all of us.

01:14:44.000 Yeah, if that can happen at a college campus, I mean, that's where ideas are supposed to be shared, discussed, explored, etc.

01:14:50.000 If that can happen at a college campus, everything's up for grabs at some point.

01:14:54.000 Well, that college campus is really strange, right?

01:14:56.000 It's really strange.

01:14:57.000 They're struggling now, enrollment's down.

01:14:59.000 Well, radically.

01:15:01.000 Radically down.

01:15:01.000 Yeah, I mean, they could literally go under because of this.

01:15:05.000 It looks like it might happen, yeah.

01:15:07.000 It's too bad because when it was doing well, as Brett was explaining, it was a wonderful place to teach because he could do whatever he wanted to.

01:15:15.000 Really cool stuff.

01:15:16.000 He could take them to the park and they could do a class in the park.

01:15:19.000 He could have a class where, regardless of what he's teaching, he could teach about something else.

01:15:25.000 Yeah, crazy field trips somewhere, all this stuff, adventures with the students.

01:15:29.000 It's such a...

01:15:30.000 Did the Simpsons go there, too?

01:15:31.000 Speaking of the Simpsons, I think he was an alum from there.

01:15:34.000 It's such a shame because they're just such decent people.

01:15:38.000 They're just such kind.

01:15:39.000 They're great.

01:15:40.000 They're both great.

01:15:41.000 They're both so smart, too.

01:15:43.000 So really legitimately smart.

01:15:46.000 And fiercely progressive.

01:15:47.000 And fiercely progressive.

01:15:49.000 They're decent humans.

01:15:50.000 Of course, which means they're alt-right adjacent.

01:15:52.000 Right, right. 0.98

01:15:53.000 It's just fucking hilarious, man. 0.98

01:15:55.000 These people. 0.95

01:15:56.000 It's a strange, strange time for ideas.

01:15:59.000 But I think this is also some sort of a symptom of this culture that we live in where everyone gets to voice their opinion.

01:16:10.000 Everyone feels entitled to voice their opinion because of social media and because of this instantaneous ability to post whatever you feel about anything, whether it's a comment on YouTube or a tweet or a Facebook post.

01:16:23.000 This nature of everyone putting in input, instead of earning your right to be heard, you know, and through merit and through your work and through people saying, hey, this guy is smart.

01:16:35.000 This girl has great ideas. 0.97

01:16:37.000 This person really has some good points.

01:16:40.000 That's Tom Nichols' ideas.

01:16:41.000 Before we used to criticize people from a point of expertise.

01:16:45.000 Now people who have absolutely no expertise feel that they're entitled to not only criticize, but have everybody else listen to their criticisms.

01:16:53.000 I think you're onto something with the social media, right?

01:16:56.000 Because you post something and it gets like four interactions and you're like, well, how come Joe Rogan's thing got like 4,000?

01:17:02.000 It's not fair.

01:17:03.000 Right.

01:17:04.000 Right?

01:17:04.000 And so there's this, like, kind of competitive jealousy kind of thing going on.

01:17:08.000 And I think we've seen that a lot, you know, these kind of, you know, people who don't have a lot to bring to the table, and they want to get, you know, maybe it's a spot on a podcast.

01:17:16.000 Maybe they want to get on, you know, a conference or something, a speaker at a conference.

01:17:21.000 And we've seen this for years.

01:17:22.000 What happens is, well, you know, you got some big name that's coming.

01:17:25.000 Well, let's just, like...

01:17:26.000 Can him and say, well, he's a sexist.

01:17:29.000 He said this terrible thing.

01:17:30.000 Now he can't be at the conference or we'll protest.

01:17:33.000 Get him out.

01:17:34.000 Put one of our guys in.

01:17:35.000 Or when they start to get more power, it's like, let's make sure half of our people are there or else we're going to make sure that we say your conference is racist.

01:17:42.000 Then that becomes like just a hot mess.

01:17:44.000 Nobody wants to go to the conference.

01:17:45.000 It's not going to be financially soluble.

01:17:47.000 So it falls apart.

01:17:48.000 I mean, this stuff's been going on.

01:17:50.000 This seems to be what's going on.

01:17:51.000 And I think you're touching something where social media, and Tom Nichols talks about it too, generating a kind of narcissism where people feel entitled.

01:17:59.000 Like, I have a voice.

01:18:00.000 Nobody's listening to me, but they should listen to me because they, of course, think their ideas are great.

01:18:05.000 And the rise of social media coincides with shutting down speakers.

01:18:09.000 Absolutely.

01:18:10.000 Speakers on campus.

01:18:11.000 It didn't used to happen that way.

01:18:13.000 It used to be, even if people protested it, the speech went on and people debated that person.

01:18:18.000 Or the people got a chance during the Q&A section to challenge these ideas.

01:18:22.000 That's what it's all about.

01:18:23.000 That's what it's supposed to be all about.

01:18:24.000 If you have a problematic person, you have a person that you feel is, they have ideas that are questionable, you bring in a person whose ideas you feel are Counter to those ideas.

01:18:37.000 And you let the audience see how these individuals discuss these things.

01:18:42.000 When I was in high school, Barney Frank debated some guy from – he was some very conservative person.

01:18:49.000 I forget what the – There was a ridiculous conservative group that had some really funny name.

01:18:56.000 I forget what it was. 0.84

01:18:57.000 But he was like this really canned Ronald Reagan-style conservative.

01:19:02.000 And Barney Frank was...

01:19:04.000 I think he was still in the closet back then.

01:19:06.000 But he was this very articulate, powerful, left-wing guy.

01:19:12.000 And they did it inside this community center in our high school, whatever it was.

01:19:19.000 Some auditorium.

01:19:21.000 And I got a chance to watch this one guy talk about all these different – whatever it was, gay marriage or whatever is conservative ideas and values and a marriage should be between a man and a woman and all these different things that would – Today,

01:19:37.000 at a lot of college campuses, you'd want those shut down.

01:19:40.000 You don't want someone propagating these ideas. 0.98

01:19:43.000 But Barty Frank came on after him and eloquently dissected what was stupid about it and what the Constitution is all about. 0.93

01:19:51.000 What makes America great is our freedom and our ability to express ourselves.

01:19:55.000 And by doing so, me as a 16-year-old kid in the audience got to see ideas dissected and ideas debated and see two people From polar opposite perspectives, just battle it out and let the best idea win.

01:20:14.000 And I'm sure there was probably some people that were in that audience that came out of it with a different perspective. 0.90

01:20:19.000 Like, yeah, gay people shouldn't get married. 1.00

01:20:22.000 And yeah, marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. 0.98

01:20:25.000 I'm sure of it.

01:20:26.000 I'm sure of it.

01:20:27.000 And that's what happens in a democracy.

01:20:29.000 Yeah, you're talking about the very foundation of liberal society.

01:20:33.000 You're talking about John Stuart Mill here.

01:20:35.000 I mean, you're talking about John Adams.

01:20:38.000 You're talking about the foundation of a liberal society here.

01:20:40.000 And that's what the scholarship runs, what we looked at, runs directly counter to this.

01:20:45.000 Remember, the idea is that if people are putting out language, the idea that some people are going to come away with a heteronormative idea or a homophobic idea, that's already a catastrophe.

01:20:56.000 Yes.

01:20:56.000 So we can't allow it.

01:20:57.000 We've got to pull the speaker wires like a demure event. 0.54

01:21:00.000 We can't let that go on.

01:21:01.000 Yeah, that's my point.

01:21:02.000 It's like, what happened where...

01:21:06.000 You know, these kind of interactions between contrary ideas is so dangerous that one or two people could possibly be shifted.

01:21:18.000 Even if it's 30% of the audience. 0.92

01:21:20.000 I mean, who the fuck knows what's going to happen when people are sitting there listening? 0.88

01:21:23.000 And who's to say that you're right or you're wrong? 0.95

01:21:26.000 The way to challenge ideas is not pulling the plug on the speakers.

01:21:30.000 It's better ideas!

01:21:46.000 Yeah.

01:22:05.000 Can't change.

01:22:06.000 They're always rooted in some identity.

01:22:08.000 Whoever has, you know, there's more straight people than gay people. 0.99

01:22:11.000 Okay.

01:22:11.000 So therefore, straight people always have power.

01:22:14.000 Therefore, anything that reinforces heteronormativity is going to be a catastrophe that reinforces. 0.96

01:22:19.000 The next thing you know, people are going to be beating gays in the snow or something like that.

01:22:22.000 It's also the complete infantilization of young adults. 0.96

01:22:27.000 That's it.

01:22:27.000 Because you're telling me these young adults aren't smart enough to differentiate between good ideas and bad ideas.

01:22:34.000 Well, if they're learning all this grievance study stuff, like I just said, their critical thinking is getting hobbled.

01:22:38.000 But here's my point.

01:22:39.000 If you are a person who's a young, progressive, well-read person who's got some rock-solid ideas about...

01:22:48.000 People being able to live their lives without discrimination and all the things that I'm sure we all agree on. 0.99

01:22:54.000 And you sat and listened to some right-wing, alt-right asshole spewing hate. 1.00

01:23:00.000 Is it gonna change you? 1.00

01:23:02.000 Is it gonna affect you?

01:23:03.000 Of course it's not.

01:23:04.000 So, who is it going to affect?

01:23:06.000 Like, who are these ideas going to reach?

01:23:09.000 Why do we assume that people are so much more easily influenced than we are?

01:23:15.000 What is that about?

01:23:17.000 This infantilization of young adults.

01:23:21.000 It is.

01:23:21.000 It's bubble wrap on kids.

01:23:23.000 It's nerfing the world. 1.00

01:23:25.000 Sharp corners, gotta put a fucking cushion over it. 0.99

01:23:27.000 Exactly. 0.99

01:23:27.000 And Lucanoff and Haidt just published that book, The Coddling of the American Mind. 0.99

01:23:32.000 Yeah.

01:23:34.000 And I think if you look at Haidt's work and the Heterodox Academy, and he's fighting for this, but we have infantilized people.

01:23:42.000 We have infantilized students.

01:23:44.000 And I hope that the tide is changing.

01:23:47.000 I don't know.

01:23:48.000 One of the things we wanted to do with this project is give people the opportunity to speak out and say, you know, they don't speak for me.

01:23:55.000 I want to hear what someone has to say about immigration, the other side, quote-unquote.

01:23:59.000 Sure.

01:23:59.000 I want to hear the best arguments because then I want to engage them myself.

01:24:04.000 And I also think that we should have people of all...

01:24:07.000 I think it's a problem that people who go into teaching...

01:24:13.000 I can't remember the study I read.

01:24:15.000 The overwhelming percentage of people, college educators, are on the left.

01:24:18.000 I'm on the left.

01:24:19.000 I think that's a problem.

01:24:20.000 I think that they need diverse voices...

01:24:23.000 Diversity also has to be ideological diversity.

01:24:26.000 And if you want people to be less brittle and if you want people to be less infantilized, they have to hear the other side.

01:24:33.000 But they have to hear – this is also Mill's idea.

01:24:35.000 They have to hear it from people who believe it.

01:24:38.000 Yeah, that's in John Stuart Mill's book on liberty.

01:24:41.000 It's not enough to have heard that the argument from the other side exists.

01:24:45.000 You need to hear the best case put forward by people who really, really subscribe to it, and then work against that.

01:24:51.000 If you can defeat that, then it deserves to be defeated, right?

01:24:54.000 Yeah.

01:24:54.000 And this is the thing.

01:24:55.000 I think, you know, in general, human beings, we all put forth our best ideas, and we're all wrong most of the time.

01:25:01.000 We can be a smart guy or a smart woman, whatever. 1.00

01:25:03.000 We're all pretty stupid. 1.00

01:25:04.000 We put forth a lot of ideas. 1.00

01:25:06.000 Most of them are wrong.

01:25:07.000 It's true for everybody.

01:25:08.000 True for you, me, everybody.

01:25:10.000 And what we should really be relying on is, you know, I put down an idea and you're like, well, I don't know about that.

01:25:15.000 And so we start cutting away the bullshit that I tucked into my idea, the stuff I didn't have right.

01:25:20.000 We do that, and now the idea that survives that process is better. 0.99

01:25:24.000 And then somebody else comes along and says, wait, wait, wait, that part's probably a little bit bullshit. 0.95

01:25:27.000 But this, you could add to it and make it better. 0.98

01:25:29.000 And then some of that's wrong.

01:25:31.000 And this is the process of how we really produce knowledge.

01:25:33.000 And that's what gives us a vibrant culture, too.

01:25:37.000 Right.

01:25:37.000 And as opposed to what we see here, where the three of us can make up a conclusion and write a paper to support it.

01:25:43.000 And then if you criticize it, you had to have criticized it because you were sexist or because you were racist.

01:25:49.000 If you do a scientific test that shows that it's wrong...

01:25:53.000 The science must have been sexist or racist.

01:25:56.000 Once you're doing that, you're really in the weeds.

01:26:00.000 You're not helping anybody.

01:26:01.000 Yeah, and we need to study these areas, gender and race, but we need to do it right. 1.00

01:26:06.000 Yeah, and we need to do it freely, where you could just talk, and you don't get accused of all sorts of horrible transgressions.

01:26:14.000 Exactly, and that's the culture that we want to see in here, and that's not the culture we have.

01:26:20.000 Well, I think there's, you know, everyone is railing against identity politics, and I think we can all agree identity politics are a huge problem.

01:26:27.000 But another problem that goes along with it hand in hand is identifying personally with ideas, where these ideas are connected to your ego, to who you are.

01:26:38.000 I wrote a book about that.

01:26:39.000 Did you?

01:26:40.000 Yeah.

01:26:40.000 What's it called?

01:26:41.000 Everybody's Wrong About God.

01:26:42.000 And it sounds like I'm just going to go after religion, but it's actually the culmination of my study of religious psychology.

01:26:48.000 And so really what it was was targeting – I mean it talks about what's going on with religion and why people believe religion and what God actually stands for in terms of psychology as it might see it.

01:27:01.000 But then what it was really targeting was I saw all these people who are like loudmouth atheists.

01:27:06.000 And they were like this and that and the other thing.

01:27:08.000 And they have this whole community. 0.99

01:27:09.000 And I saw, holy shit, they're doing the same thing. 0.99

01:27:11.000 Yes. 0.99

01:27:12.000 Right?

01:27:12.000 They're doing the same thing.

01:27:12.000 And what are they doing?

01:27:14.000 They're identifying as an atheist.

01:27:15.000 I am an atheist.

01:27:17.000 Yeah.

01:27:17.000 What does that mean?

01:27:18.000 Well, I want to be a good atheist. 0.99

01:27:19.000 How the fuck do you be a good atheist? 0.99

01:27:21.000 That doesn't make any sense. 0.99

01:27:22.000 Do you remember Atheism Plus?

01:27:23.000 Atheism Plus was exactly what I was looking at, bro.

01:27:26.000 That was my fault. 0.94

01:27:26.000 Favorite that was old I watched a whole speech like Like smoking a joint and laugh my fucking ass off at this dork who is speaking in front of some other group of dorks that were all part of the atheism plus movement and he just kept Just ranting about sexual harassment and diversity and all these different things and attaching them to atheism. 0.94

01:27:51.000 Exactly. 1.00

01:27:51.000 Motherfucker, you're making your own religion. 1.00

01:27:53.000 Exactly. 1.00

01:27:54.000 Do you understand what you're doing?

01:27:55.000 Exactly.

01:27:56.000 That's exactly right.

01:27:56.000 High Joe Rogan saw it.

01:27:58.000 Straight through it.

01:27:58.000 There it is.

01:27:59.000 I was laughing.

01:28:00.000 Dude, it was so... 0.94

01:28:01.000 Because the guy was such a virtue-signaling little weasel. 0.78

01:28:04.000 Oh, totally. 1.00

01:28:05.000 Sneaky fucker. 1.00

01:28:07.000 Sneaky little fucker. 1.00

01:28:08.000 Yeah, a little sneaky fucker that was trying to get girls to like him. 1.00

01:28:10.000 I guarantee you that. 1.00

01:28:12.000 Yep.

01:28:12.000 You see what it is, though.

01:28:13.000 I've got to be a good atheist.

01:28:14.000 How do I do it?

01:28:15.000 Well, I don't know, because atheists means don't believe stuff of a certain kind.

01:28:19.000 So they have to start tacking.

01:28:20.000 Atheism plus is so strange.

01:28:21.000 And it was plus what?

01:28:22.000 Plus social justice.

01:28:24.000 It died off because it didn't work.

01:28:25.000 Well, those people are still grumbling around or whatever.

01:28:27.000 Oh, I doubt it.

01:28:28.000 Oh, they've got a whole blog.

01:28:30.000 They complain about our project.

01:28:31.000 You know what they said?

01:28:33.000 They're still there.

01:28:34.000 Yeah, we're straight white men.

01:28:35.000 Oh, well, you're straight white men. 0.89

01:28:36.000 We're there for, we have bad motivations.

01:28:39.000 Motivations, that's what we get all the time.

01:28:41.000 Because we're straight white men. 1.00

01:28:42.000 Because bad white men, straight white men are basically like a little arrow running around looking for vaginas. 1.00

01:28:49.000 And anything you say is basically just a little sneaky way for you to get inside of a vagina. 1.00

01:28:54.000 And all this little stuff, you just try, making your way through society. 0.99

01:28:59.000 It's a little ironic when you put it that way.

01:29:02.000 It's what it is, right?

01:29:03.000 But the truth is, though, if they think that, I mean, this is the article of faith here, is that privilege exists and always preserves itself.

01:29:10.000 So we're straight white men.

01:29:11.000 We criticized what's supposed to be but isn't social justice work.

01:29:15.000 It's bad social justice work, you know, capital social justice. 0.62

01:29:18.000 It's screwed up.

01:29:19.000 So we criticize that.

01:29:20.000 Therefore, why?

01:29:21.000 We must be because we're white men trying to preserve our status. 0.89

01:29:25.000 Of course. 0.99

01:29:26.000 You guys are a problem.

01:29:26.000 That was the depth of their analysis, given that some of them are professors and stuff.

01:29:32.000 That's the best they could come up with.

01:29:33.000 And wouldn't it have been better to say, you know what?

01:29:36.000 There's a problem here.

01:29:37.000 And we want to study this stuff, and we need to clean house.

01:29:40.000 And thank you, guys.

01:29:41.000 We appreciate it.

01:29:42.000 But you would have to step so far out of your belief system and be so objective and so self-aware that you're realizing you're in some sort of a preposterous group.

01:29:53.000 And very few people are willing to admit that most of their life's work has been nonsense.

01:29:58.000 Especially when you get rewarded for that, you get promoted for that, you get accolades from that.

01:30:03.000 You carry status and privilege. 0.99

01:30:05.000 Look, I mean, when people join some fucking wacky cult, they don't join it saying, ah, this is bullshit, but it'll be fun. 1.00

01:30:11.000 They believe it. 1.00

01:30:13.000 They buy into it.

01:30:15.000 And this is no different.

01:30:17.000 It's like what we're talking about, about ideologies, how people, they lock into these predetermined patterns of thinking and behavior.

01:30:23.000 And this is what's happening here.

01:30:25.000 And it's very much like a cult.

01:30:27.000 It's very much like any other groupthink sort of environment.

01:30:31.000 It's like Scientology grew up in the university.

01:30:34.000 Yes.

01:30:35.000 So everything they put out about thetans and volcanoes or whatever they've got, all of a sudden that's not like just crazy, you know, L. Ron Hubbard, was it Dianetics or whatever.

01:30:44.000 That's gold standard knowledge, academic press, Oxford, you know.

01:30:48.000 Yeah, so you get a degree.

01:30:50.000 Yeah, and then you get to teach it.

01:30:51.000 Somebody wrote an article criticizing us yesterday, and they're like, oh, they don't understand.

01:30:56.000 They think we just talk to each other in a bubble.

01:30:58.000 We talk to policymakers.

01:30:59.000 We talk to media. 1.00

01:31:01.000 It's like, no shit. 1.00

01:31:02.000 That's why we did this. 1.00

01:31:03.000 You do talk to other people.

01:31:06.000 You are running into HR departments.

01:31:10.000 You're telling them how to do the diversity officers and all this.

01:31:13.000 They're institutionalizing.

01:31:14.000 Talk to policymakers.

01:31:16.000 I get emails.

01:31:16.000 I don't know if you saw a year before all this, we did this really bad attempt at it called conceptual penis as a social construct.

01:31:23.000 So we said that penises are a social construct and they cause climate change. 0.95

01:31:28.000 And this got a little bit of attention. 0.59

01:31:30.000 I've been getting emails ever since then from some member of EU Parliament, and they're like, we have another gender initiative that we're going to try to basically foist upon EU, and then it's going to dictate how Europe now works with Africa. 0.90

01:31:44.000 I think we're good to go.

01:32:01.000 That's not – it's not like a meeting of some dorks at a conference.

01:32:06.000 That's real.

01:32:07.000 They're coming up with policy to dictate how they want to interact with Africa for the next 20, 30 years.

01:32:14.000 That's real.

01:32:15.000 And these people are emailing me saying this scholarship that you guys are criticizing is really – it's on the agenda of the EU parliament.

01:32:23.000 So help.

01:32:25.000 All right.

01:32:26.000 Well, it seems like what we have here is sort of a wave of ideas, right?

01:32:31.000 It goes in and it goes out and it's going back and forth.

01:32:34.000 And you need this sort of balancing act. 0.99

01:32:38.000 And things need to go so haywire that people step in and go, well, I'm pulling my fucking kids out of Evergreen State. 0.99

01:32:48.000 This is crazy. 0.99

01:32:49.000 And that's a great example of a place that went too far.

01:32:53.000 Yeah, and what we don't want to have happen is we don't want people to pull their kids out of the universities because there are some— Not the university, but these departments don't major in it.

01:33:03.000 Exactly.

01:33:04.000 Don't major in it.

01:33:04.000 Which department specifically?

01:33:06.000 Gender studies, critical race studies, cultural studies, queer theory, fat studies if it happens to have one. 0.63

01:33:12.000 I read a biography of a guy who teaches critical whiteness.

01:33:17.000 Oh, yeah.

01:33:17.000 Critical whiteness is a thing.

01:33:20.000 Actually, there was a journal, and then it got so out there that it got criticized out of existence.

01:33:25.000 But it's a big thing.

01:33:27.000 There's some big paper I was reading just before we went public with all this, and I got asked about it.

01:33:32.000 Luckily, I read it because we did the Mein Kampf.

01:33:34.000 Of course, Israel's like, you got Mein Kampf published. 0.84

01:33:37.000 Oh, my God, we need to talk to you.

01:33:38.000 Israel, TV, you know, I was on Israeli TV. What the hell? 0.89

01:33:43.000 And so all these Israeli journalists are calling me, talking to me about it, and over the Mein Kampf, and I read this one paper. 0.85

01:33:50.000 They're like, well, do you think that Jewish studies is like this?

01:33:52.000 And I found this paper just before this all came out that was Jewish studies criticizing critical whiteness studies because there's this whole thing about how the critical whiteness people accuse the Jews of being white, and then there's all this, you know, who's – where does the oppression lie because, you know,

01:34:08.000 the Jews have had it pretty rough.

01:34:10.000 Over the last 2,000 years or thereabouts.

01:34:13.000 But then you got the critical whiteness people being like, no, they're white.

01:34:17.000 It's a white privilege, blah, blah, blah.

01:34:19.000 And then the Jewish studies people are like, hold up. 0.86

01:34:23.000 Don't put us up here and say that we're all white supremacists. 0.91

01:34:26.000 We were gassed by the white supremacists.

01:34:30.000 So there's this huge critical studies fight between the Jewish studies people and the critical whiteness people over whether Jews count as white people or not and have white supremacy built in.

01:34:40.000 And they asked me about this, the Israeli journalist did, and I was like, well, you know...

01:34:44.000 I have to sympathize with what their argument is, but they're still using the same broken methods, and so you still want to see better methods, right?

01:34:52.000 I think the Jewish people have a point.

01:34:54.000 You know, we've been pretty heavily oppressed for 2,000 years.

01:34:57.000 You start with, like, you know, the Romans decimating them, and then the diaspora, and then the Holocaust, and every – it's just not good. 0.93

01:35:05.000 So I think they have a point that, you know, don't just say, oh, we have crazy white privilege and therefore white supremacists.

01:35:13.000 But if you want to do that, you know, maybe this methodology of complaining about it's not the best way to go.

01:35:20.000 It's complicated stuff, but at least they're against the critical whiteness stuff.

01:35:25.000 This critical whiteness thing you were saying, they have a journal?

01:35:29.000 They did.

01:35:30.000 The Journal of Whiteness Studies or something like that, or critical whiteness. 0.60

01:35:35.000 What happened to it?

01:35:35.000 It lasted for about three years, and I don't know exactly why it fell apart, but it fell apart because I was really upset because I wanted to send a paper to it, and it doesn't exist anymore.

01:35:45.000 What were you going to send a paper on?

01:35:47.000 The rewrite of Mein Kampf where the lesbian woman excoriates her own whiteness. 0.67

01:35:51.000 I was going to send it to that journal, and then it doesn't exist anymore, so I had to send it to a critical race journal who then said, ah, it's a...

01:35:58.000 Good idea, but you're positioning yourself as a good white, and that's a problem, so we can't publish it. 1.00

01:36:03.000 All these papers, by the way, they're all online.

01:36:04.000 We were completely transparent and honest with everybody.

01:36:07.000 There's a Google Drive.

01:36:08.000 A Google Drive with every paper, all the peer review comments.

01:36:10.000 And all the review comments, everything, the Mike Naina's videos, everything is up there.

01:36:15.000 It's totally free for everybody.

01:36:18.000 Yeah, we get accused of being grifters.

01:36:20.000 We don't have...

01:36:20.000 How?

01:36:22.000 How are we grifting?

01:36:23.000 You know, it's in a Google Drive that anybody can just go download all of it.

01:36:27.000 I don't recall getting money for that.

01:36:29.000 We really do think that...

01:36:33.000 Yeah, there you go.

01:36:34.000 Swedish professor rebels against university's critical wetness studies.

01:36:39.000 Oh yeah, a couple days ago.

01:36:41.000 One of Sweden's most merited and acclaimed political scientists and long-term critics of identity politics, Bo Rothstein, has argued that identity-based disciplines like grievance studies, which deals with the concept of collective guilt, have no place in academia.

01:36:57.000 Yeah, Grievance Studies is, yeah, right on. 1.00

01:36:59.000 Yeah, that guy's inspired.

01:37:01.000 Yeah, we came up with Grievance Studies, so I'm delighted to see that that's caught on. 0.99

01:37:06.000 Start a podcast immediately and a Patreon page so that you don't have to worry about losing your house.

01:37:12.000 Right on.

01:37:13.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:37:13.000 Right on.

01:37:14.000 I mean, I don't know how it is in Sweden. 0.98

01:37:16.000 Yeah, I don't either, but that guy's probably screwed. 1.00

01:37:18.000 Whatever the fuck they did with Jordan Peterson, they created a goddamn monster. 1.00

01:37:22.000 Oh, yeah. 1.00

01:37:23.000 You guys fucked up. 1.00

01:37:24.000 You guys created a multi-millionaire who's worldwide famous and has a huge bestseller. 1.00

01:37:29.000 He was just talking to Swedish politicians on TV the other day, so watch out. 0.99

01:37:33.000 They fucked up with him. 1.00

01:37:35.000 Boy, did they fuck up. 1.00

01:37:36.000 And Dave was just texting me, a friend Ruben, was just texting me pictures that are all full. 0.99

01:37:41.000 It's crazy.

01:37:42.000 And the energy in that place is crazy.

01:37:44.000 He's selling out 5,000 seat theaters.

01:37:47.000 He's a rock star. 1.00

01:37:47.000 He's a fucking rock star. 1.00

01:37:49.000 He's an intellectual rock star. 1.00

01:37:50.000 It's hilarious.

01:37:51.000 Good for him.

01:37:51.000 Yeah.

01:37:52.000 I mean, look, a lot of other guys are doing it too.

01:37:54.000 Sam Harris is doing that now as well.

01:37:55.000 They're doing these gigantic, huge speeches.

01:37:58.000 Good for him.

01:37:59.000 Well, absolutely good for him.

01:38:01.000 But...

01:38:03.000 What I'm excited about is how many people are interested in the debate of ideas and that this is not happening on the college campuses, but a lot of these people that have graduated from college or are in the working world,

01:38:19.000 they're very fascinated by this.

01:38:21.000 It's real.

01:38:22.000 It's what you were saying.

01:38:23.000 It's been suppressed for long enough.

01:38:24.000 Now, you know, Jordan Peterson, what was his thing?

01:38:27.000 He's like, you're not going to tell me the words I can use. 1.00

01:38:29.000 When there's 78 different words for genders, I can safely say you're fucking crazy. 1.00

01:38:36.000 It's like this desperation to try to find a unique identity that you can consider to be super special or whatever. 0.99

01:38:43.000 You want to see even crazier.

01:38:45.000 You go on these blogs, and I think they're mostly on Tumblr or something.

01:38:49.000 It violates my rule, never use Tumblr.

01:38:59.000 Yeah.

01:39:17.000 Yeah, it's just people wanting to be different.

01:39:19.000 I think so.

01:39:19.000 They want to be special and they're not good at anything.

01:39:22.000 So that was the other part of, I guess, one of the things that Jim said when I said I was more cynical.

01:39:27.000 I think that in general the critics tend to be angry.

01:39:32.000 And I'm not saying that their anger is legitimate or illegitimate, but they seem to be angry.

01:39:37.000 They seem to be almost universally under accomplished.

01:39:40.000 Yes.

01:39:40.000 So they're upset at you because you have whatever, a big show or a lot of followers, whatever they're upset about, big platform or audience.

01:39:47.000 They're just generally disagreeable people.

01:39:51.000 And they found these communities of other people who are enraged, who are also under-accomplished, who they can lash out at people together and then virtue signal, you know?

01:40:02.000 Get rewarded for, oh, you know, rogue in that bat, whatever they want to call you or whatever they want to call us or whoever else. 0.65

01:40:09.000 Some kind of an oppressor.

01:40:11.000 Yeah, some kind of an oppressor.

01:40:12.000 And there's something that's so, I don't know...

01:40:16.000 How we can deal with that?

01:40:19.000 I mean, our attempt to do this was to try to delegitimize where they get their knowledge from, like what they call knowledge, what they could point to.

01:40:27.000 We tried to say it's not knowledge and delegitimize it. 0.87

01:40:30.000 But we really do need to get back to some kind of productive discussion, productive politics, where the far right disown their lunatics and we disown our lunatics, and we get back to work about...

01:40:44.000 Whatever, the oceans, plastic, whatever it is that we're talking about, because right now the discourse is corrupted.

01:40:51.000 We're not doing what we need to do in the academies.

01:40:53.000 These people are continuing to pump out this nonsense that's totally untethered to reality.

01:40:58.000 It's a huge problem. 0.86

01:40:59.000 I'm sick of it.

01:41:00.000 You're sick of it.

01:41:01.000 We're all sick of it.

01:41:02.000 We're all sick of it.

01:41:02.000 We're sick of it.

01:41:03.000 I'm sick of it.

01:41:03.000 I've had it.

01:41:04.000 I've had it with these folks.

01:41:05.000 It just doesn't seem like it's sustainable.

01:41:10.000 I don't think it is.

01:41:11.000 It seems like some weird thing that's going to run out of energy.

01:41:15.000 Well, it's eating itself.

01:41:16.000 It constantly eats itself.

01:41:17.000 Like we did the thing about the people of color and the black indigenous people of color.

01:41:21.000 They fragmented.

01:41:22.000 You see when you get into the critical race literature that it's like, okay, so you're brown or you're black, but you have slightly lighter skin, slightly darker skin, slightly darker than that, really dark.

01:41:31.000 They have different levels of privilege, and it's just cutting things apart.

01:41:34.000 The idea, though, that this is going to create some kind of a coalition... 0.94

01:41:37.000 They can then defeat, you know, the plurality or something like that is ridiculous.

01:41:42.000 So what do you see?

01:41:43.000 You see this stuff starting to blow up.

01:41:45.000 You see the Democrats bleed seats.

01:41:48.000 They've lost like a thousand legislative seats across the U.S. since Obama got elected in 08. How are you going to get your agenda if you don't have any legislators, if you don't have anybody elected?

01:41:58.000 And so then what happens?

01:42:00.000 2016. I can't say that the reason that Trump got elected, because there's lots of reasons, had something to do – no, I will say it had something to do with this because every conservative person I know that's not just a reactionary is like – and I live in the southeast, man.

01:42:14.000 I know some conservatives.

01:42:16.000 Most of my friends are conservatives because I don't have a choice.

01:42:18.000 If I want to have friends, they're going to be conservatives.

01:42:20.000 It's who lives there.

01:42:22.000 So I talk to them and they're like, oh yeah, they're tearing down this kind of statue.

01:42:26.000 Oh yeah.

01:42:27.000 And it's not like they're tearing down Confederate statues.

01:42:29.000 They're tearing down Thomas Jefferson.

01:42:31.000 You know, it's like they're...

01:42:33.000 George Washington.

01:42:34.000 George Washington.

01:42:35.000 Halloween's a problem.

01:42:36.000 Wait, wait, wait.

01:42:37.000 I didn't know.

01:42:38.000 You didn't know Halloween's a problem?

01:42:39.000 No.

01:42:39.000 What are you going on for Halloween?

01:42:40.000 I'm a shark.

01:42:41.000 You're a shark?

01:42:42.000 My kids are mermaids. 0.96

01:42:43.000 Am I problematic?

01:42:44.000 Oh god, if they're mermaids and you're a shark, you are definitely taking like a dominant power position. 0.98

01:42:49.000 They pick my outfit.

01:42:52.000 I don't pick my outfit.

01:42:53.000 I have kids.

01:42:54.000 They tell me what I am.

01:42:57.000 Is it an issue?

01:42:58.000 I don't know.

01:42:58.000 I'll try to figure out a paper for that.

01:43:00.000 But what's wrong with Halloween?

01:43:02.000 Halloween?

01:43:03.000 Yes.

01:43:03.000 Oh, God.

01:43:04.000 Cultural appropriation.

01:43:05.000 Hold on.

01:43:05.000 Sean White apologizes for Tropic Thunder Simple Jack costume.

01:43:11.000 Oh, no.

01:43:11.000 He dressed up as a black person.

01:43:13.000 No, Simple Jack is the mentally handicapped person. 0.99

01:43:16.000 Oh, yeah.

01:43:16.000 Okay, okay.

01:43:17.000 That's right.

01:43:17.000 Robert Downey Jr. might be the last guy ever to wear blackface.

01:43:20.000 Yeah, that's true.

01:43:21.000 And pull it off.

01:43:22.000 When are they going to pull that show?

01:43:24.000 When are they gonna pull Tropic Thunder is problematic.

01:43:26.000 I don't even know the show.

01:43:27.000 There's probably a paper.

01:43:28.000 Well, you never saw Tropic Thunder?

01:43:29.000 Never. 0.97

01:43:29.000 Goddamn, it's a funny movie. 0.97

01:43:31.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:43:32.000 It's wonderful.

01:43:33.000 You'll love it.

01:43:33.000 And it's...

01:43:34.000 It's special.

01:43:35.000 Entirely politically incorrect.

01:43:37.000 Yeah, it's as politically incorrect.

01:43:38.000 I'm writing it down.

01:43:39.000 Tropic Thunder is a... 1.00

01:43:40.000 It is a fucking great movie. 0.99

01:43:43.000 It is a gem. 1.00

01:43:43.000 It's a great movie. 1.00

01:43:44.000 See, now we're gonna be racist and ableist for saying that it's funny.

01:43:48.000 Oh, yeah, for sure.

01:43:48.000 We got real issues.

01:43:49.000 We do have issues.

01:43:50.000 What's wrong with Halloween again?

01:43:51.000 Halloween is...

01:43:52.000 Well, mostly there's a lot of cultural appropriation going on.

01:43:54.000 So somebody might dress up like I put on a sombrero and a poncho.

01:43:57.000 That's an issue.

01:43:58.000 Yeah.

01:43:59.000 That's an issue.

01:44:01.000 It's Tuesday if we have tacos today.

01:44:03.000 Yeah, you can't be a Native American. 1.00

01:44:05.000 You can't be a Native American. 1.00

01:44:06.000 There was that big stink just now about the Victoria's Secret fashion show where they had their indigenous... 1.00

01:44:12.000 Colors and the feathers they were wearing and walking around half naked.

01:44:15.000 You can't do that.

01:44:17.000 So it's the idea mostly that people are going to take costumes that are insensitive to other people.

01:44:21.000 Cultural appropriation.

01:44:23.000 Cultural appropriation.

01:44:23.000 So it's not possible.

01:44:24.000 Can you still dress up as Bruce Lee?

01:44:26.000 Oh man, I don't know.

01:44:27.000 I don't know.

01:44:28.000 Because he's Asian.

01:44:29.000 For a while.

01:44:30.000 At Harvard, maybe, because he's Asian and it gets complicated.

01:44:33.000 But no, this all blew up at Yale a few years ago, I thought for sure.

01:44:36.000 Yes, Nick Christophels.

01:44:37.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:44:38.000 How do you say his last name?

01:44:39.000 Christakis, I think.

01:44:40.000 Christakis. 0.60

01:44:41.000 Yeah, something.

01:44:42.000 So it blew up on him.

01:44:43.000 Yeah, he's cool.

01:44:43.000 Oh, he's a good guy.

01:44:45.000 Yeah, that was hilarious.

01:44:47.000 Those kids screaming at him.

01:44:49.000 Screaming at him.

01:44:49.000 This is supposed to be a safe place.

01:44:51.000 Yep.

01:44:52.000 It was just his wife put out an email saying maybe it's okay to be politically incorrect on Halloween.

01:45:01.000 It was just, you know, choose your costume how you're going to choose it.

01:45:04.000 We're all adults.

01:45:05.000 It's probably bad to be deliberately offensive, and yet it's also bad to overreact to incidental stuff.

01:45:14.000 Oh, yeah.

01:45:15.000 It's all this stuff.

01:45:16.000 Little girls, if they're white, can't dress up as Mulan. 0.96

01:45:18.000 Oh, that's right.

01:45:19.000 I forgot about that.

01:45:21.000 Mulan is a new one.

01:45:22.000 Yeah, Pocahontas problem. 1.00

01:45:23.000 But I think Bruce Lee is still on the menu.

01:45:25.000 I don't think anybody's getting in trouble for being Bruce Lee.

01:45:29.000 You could wear, like, the tracksuit, like Uma Thurman did in Kill Bill.

01:45:33.000 Oh, yeah, that's a big footprint across my chest, right?

01:45:35.000 Footprint?

01:45:36.000 Yeah, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar kicked him.

01:45:38.000 Right, right, right.

01:45:39.000 But a lot of people go with, like, the cuts.

01:45:41.000 Oh, yeah, the...

01:45:42.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:45:42.000 I don't have enough abs for that.

01:45:44.000 That's gonna be a bad costume. 1.00

01:45:46.000 What is this?

01:45:47.000 Yeah, you could buy a Bruce Lee costume.

01:45:49.000 Look at that.

01:45:50.000 For now.

01:45:51.000 For now.

01:45:52.000 Who knows?

01:45:52.000 Oh, it comes with a wig, too.

01:45:54.000 Yeah, dope.

01:45:56.000 For now.

01:45:57.000 Oh, even a baby costume.

01:45:58.000 Look at that.

01:45:59.000 Look at that.

01:45:59.000 As long as you're Chinese, that baby's Chinese.

01:46:01.000 That's fine. 1.00

01:46:02.000 Oh, that guy's fucked. 1.00

01:46:03.000 No, that guy's going down. 1.00

01:46:04.000 Can't be a kung fu guy. 0.72

01:46:06.000 No.

01:46:06.000 Not allowed.

01:46:07.000 Can't be a ninja.

01:46:08.000 No, way too much cultural appropriation.

01:46:10.000 Uh, boy.

01:46:13.000 This mess that we're in.

01:46:15.000 Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

01:46:17.000 I think so.

01:46:18.000 Yeah?

01:46:18.000 Yeah, I think so.

01:46:19.000 The response that we've got so far has been really positive.

01:46:22.000 It's all like the secret positive.

01:46:24.000 So the feeling I get is that...

01:46:25.000 In academia.

01:46:26.000 Well, from academics, yeah.

01:46:28.000 The general public has been way more positive than that.

01:46:30.000 Super positive.

01:46:31.000 Super positive.

01:46:32.000 So the wind is changing, right?

01:46:35.000 If we're getting that much – we got no real blowback.

01:46:38.000 We got lots of positivity from the public.

01:46:40.000 Even academics are reaching out.

01:46:42.000 They're like secret positive.

01:46:43.000 With them, it's like one more thing, right?

01:46:45.000 We need a critical mass because what they are is they're all lined up.

01:46:48.000 They know the first one to step out of line and challenge the stuff's getting shot.

01:46:51.000 It's like the communist situation.

01:46:53.000 After communism fell, nobody really believed it anymore, but they had to go along with the party or they're going to get shot.

01:46:58.000 But if a whole bunch of people come forward at once, they can't shoot everybody.

01:47:01.000 So it feels like we're in that powder keg situation now, right, where all it's going to take is – we hoped it was going to be this. 0.99

01:47:08.000 Our thing was going to be the trigger that let 30 percent of academics come forward and say, you know, it's bullshit. 0.98

01:47:13.000 And if enough people start saying it, other people start feeling safe to say it. 0.97

01:47:17.000 We wish more people feel safe.

01:47:18.000 We took a risk.

01:47:19.000 It's been fine for us.

01:47:20.000 We'll see what happens to Pete.

01:47:22.000 But – If more people will take that risk and start speaking out, then there's change coming.

01:47:26.000 Now, you were a mathematician, and that's your background in academia.

01:47:33.000 That would appear at least to be something that is beyond all this stuff, because it's just dealing with numbers.

01:47:39.000 Yeah, math itself...

01:47:41.000 It mostly has not been touched by this, but there's this whole branch in there that's called the studies of science and technology.

01:47:47.000 And mostly what they go after is, you know, the sciences or whatever, especially they go after biology and psychology.

01:47:55.000 And they feel like they've got a lot of inroads into that.

01:47:57.000 We wrote the astronomy paper to try to push that all the way to a hard science.

01:48:01.000 We said that astronomy is sexist and can only be fixed by putting in queer horoscopes. 1.00

01:48:05.000 Yeah.

01:48:08.000 We're good to go.

01:48:32.000 But they mostly go after education.

01:48:34.000 So they say, oh look, the scores, the SAT math scores or whatever for men, white men are higher than for black men or something like that.

01:48:43.000 Why could that be? 0.99

01:48:44.000 Well, you know, maybe there are a lot of factors that go into that, but they don't give a shit about a lot of factors. 0.98

01:48:48.000 It's racism. 0.98

01:48:49.000 So therefore, math education must be racist.

01:48:51.000 Therefore, we need social justice initiatives in math education.

01:48:54.000 And that's exactly what they do.

01:48:56.000 And so then you have diversity math, and I don't even know what that is.

01:48:59.000 But it's not something that you would see, like, at mathematics research level.

01:49:02.000 It's something that you see at junior high school, elementary school, that they're teaching your kids, which is why it's scary as hell.

01:49:10.000 Oof.

01:49:12.000 So is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

01:49:14.000 Yeah, I still think there's a light.

01:49:15.000 I think people hate this stuff.

01:49:16.000 I think people are getting sick.

01:49:17.000 People outside hate it.

01:49:18.000 And people inside hate it, too, though.

01:49:20.000 But they're afraid.

01:49:21.000 Yeah, I had this guy come up to me repeatedly last week.

01:49:24.000 This guy, he's got two PhDs.

01:49:26.000 Brilliant guy.

01:49:26.000 He comes up to me repeatedly.

01:49:27.000 What you did is so important.

01:49:29.000 It's so necessary.

01:49:29.000 I can't talk about it.

01:49:30.000 I'm sorry I can't talk about it.

01:49:31.000 I wish I could talk about it.

01:49:32.000 But I talk to a lot of academics, and everybody's saying the same thing.

01:49:36.000 They know you got them.

01:49:38.000 It's only a matter of time now.

01:49:40.000 One more event...

01:49:41.000 And they shake off the fear.

01:49:43.000 I think it's close.

01:49:44.000 I don't know what the next event is.

01:49:46.000 I don't think it's more bogus papers.

01:49:48.000 I think it's probably somebody getting fired that didn't deserve it or something like that.

01:49:53.000 One more thing and people are going to be ready to shake this off.

01:49:57.000 Why does this ideology infect tech companies?

01:50:02.000 And it seems to get them more than it gets anyone else.

01:50:06.000 You should ask Demore that.

01:50:07.000 I don't know. 1.00

01:50:09.000 He's fucked. 1.00

01:50:10.000 That guy can't get a job. 1.00

01:50:11.000 He just got one.

01:50:12.000 I just talked to him the other day.

01:50:14.000 He just got one.

01:50:15.000 Well, don't say where he's working.

01:50:16.000 No, definitely not.

01:50:17.000 They'll go after him.

01:50:18.000 Yeah, I don't know why it's in tech so much.

01:50:20.000 Maybe there's some kind of Silicon Valley connection there or whatever, where Silicon Valley is in the kind of Bay Area, California.

01:50:28.000 You've got a lot of the liberal hippie stuff that started out, as you were talking about, in the 60s and 70s.

01:50:33.000 So it's kind of in the water there.

01:50:34.000 In general, I would say that what you're seeing is that this stuff...

01:50:39.000 The big turn to making this applied was in the 90s, right?

01:50:43.000 So they've had an entire generation of students that have just been really getting this stuff crammed down their throat.

01:50:48.000 They really have taken over the education in the last 10 years.

01:50:51.000 It was just starting when I left academia in 2010 that, you know, it was like, oh, we're going to focus on diversity.

01:50:57.000 We're going to have diversity commitments.

01:50:59.000 We're going to get into the general curriculum.

01:51:01.000 So you're getting more and more students that are getting educated in this that are now going out to the workplace, right?

01:51:06.000 So if half your workforce in tech, because tech moves so fast—I'm just guessing why this might be a thing—tech moves really fast, so you've got to have some fresh training to go in there.

01:51:16.000 If they've been educated with diversity stuff crammed down their throat the whole time, and there's huge initiatives to try to, you know, increase representation of women in particular in tech— And these are seen as, you know, automatically good initiatives.

01:51:31.000 This is the culture that they're being educated in.

01:51:36.000 And then they take that culture to the workplace and think this is what tech is about.

01:51:39.000 And then they're surrounded by like-minded people who encourage it.

01:51:42.000 It's totally plausible that what you've got is sort of a tech echo chamber that's bouncing these things around and keeping it there.

01:51:51.000 Here's another question.

01:51:53.000 Why is it that...

01:51:55.000 I mean, here's the scenario, right?

01:51:57.000 The scenario is universities are almost predominantly taught by people that are on the left.

01:52:03.000 True.

01:52:04.000 It's massive.

01:52:05.000 It's in the 90% range, right?

01:52:08.000 When you have this sort of environment of these nonsense ideas that are accepted as fact and taught and put into published papers...

01:52:21.000 Then you have a situation where the left routinely attacks itself and devours itself for not being left enough.

01:52:30.000 You're always having people that are upset that someone's not progressive enough.

01:52:34.000 Left-wing people attacking left-wing people.

01:52:37.000 You do not see that on the right.

01:52:39.000 You did.

01:52:39.000 That's kind of what the whole Tea Party movement was, right?

01:52:42.000 But they didn't do it in the academic field because they didn't have power there.

01:52:45.000 Because they weren't academics.

01:52:46.000 Right.

01:52:46.000 Well, yeah, that shift started in the 60s and 70s.

01:52:49.000 But the Tea Party field, that was during the Obama administration, right?

01:52:53.000 Yeah.

01:52:53.000 So that's when – what was the biggest fear for every Republican congressman then was that they're going to get primaried from the right.

01:52:59.000 So they were going to have some populist Yahoo go screaming about whatever they scream about. 0.99

01:53:04.000 There's going to be more to the right, harder conservatism, conservative movement, capital C, capital M kind of thing.

01:53:10.000 And they're going to just drill into the – the reason that the conservative politics aren't succeeding is because we're not conservative enough.

01:53:17.000 That's the prevailing view where I live in the southeast.

01:53:21.000 It's the same thing as you see in the universities but reversed in terms of polarization.

01:53:26.000 Yeah.

01:53:26.000 But isn't that just an excuse for the lack of success?

01:53:30.000 It is.

01:53:32.000 It's an excuse combined with a commitment to the ideology, whether it's conservative movement ideology, whether it's social justice, scholarship, whatever it happens to be.

01:53:43.000 Right, but you see far more of these left-on-left attacks than you do right-on-right attacks.

01:53:49.000 You do right now, yeah, certainly.

01:53:51.000 Except, of course, for election time.

01:53:53.000 Sure.

01:53:54.000 When people are trying to beat their opponents.

01:53:57.000 Sure, sure, sure.

01:53:58.000 It seems to me that they're somehow or another related.

01:54:02.000 I mean, I would like to look at how many people on the left will attack others for not being progressive enough, not being left enough.

01:54:13.000 So I think it's a panic, right?

01:54:15.000 This is the kind of behavior you see in a panic, a moral panic, for example.

01:54:18.000 And so, Helen and I, the third person who worked on the project with us, Helen and I wrote an essay about a year and a half ago, and talking about how the extremism on both sides is really the problem, and most people reject it and should fight it.

01:54:32.000 Most of us are sensible people in the middle who hate this.

01:54:34.000 In fact, data just came out showing that it's 80% of the population hate the fringes, both sides.

01:54:41.000 So, and only 8% are on the left and 12% are on the right of the fringe, however that works out.

01:54:46.000 And so...

01:54:47.000 We wrote this thing and we said that what's going on actually – we called it existential polarization.

01:54:52.000 So you have this idea that everything is an existential crisis.

01:54:57.000 So the far right – we'll start with them – sees that if the Democrats get power, oh, it's open borders.

01:55:03.000 The terrorists are coming in.

01:55:05.000 Our entire way of life is going to be destroyed.

01:55:07.000 Catastrophe, catastrophe.

01:55:08.000 Oh, no.

01:55:09.000 Judith Butler is going to be 95 genders. 1.00

01:55:12.000 Quick, stop the Democrats no matter what. 0.99

01:55:14.000 And then you have the left, oh my god, if they get power, everything's going to be racist. 0.99

01:55:18.000 We're going to be beating gays in the snow. 1.00

01:55:20.000 It's going to just be the worst thing in the whole world. 0.99

01:55:22.000 That's actually kind of a joke.

01:55:24.000 But it's for real, though, that they think that the world is going to fall apart if the other side gets power. 0.57

01:55:29.000 Yeah.

01:55:29.000 And so when you have that kind of a situation, you have a panic, and you see the slightest bit of advantage happening on the other side is just something to completely freak out about.

01:55:37.000 And then what do you do?

01:55:38.000 You say, oh, well, the only possible recipe to balance the scale is to turn further our way.

01:55:43.000 If we go toward the middle, that puts the balance...

01:55:46.000 Say, if the right goes really far right, and we on the left move toward the middle, now the whole balance has moved right.

01:55:52.000 So the only way to keep the balance close to the middle is if they go right, we go left.

01:55:56.000 Right.

01:55:56.000 Hmm...

01:55:57.000 Right?

01:55:58.000 So then that's going to keep the balance.

01:55:59.000 But what that actually does is this is going to get nerdy.

01:56:02.000 Hang on.

01:56:03.000 That actually puts all of the weight on the outsides.

01:56:05.000 And you think about a spinning thing, right?

01:56:07.000 It's got centrifugal forces happening. 0.99

01:56:09.000 What's that trying to do?

01:56:10.000 It's going to rip the spinning thing apart. 0.99

01:56:12.000 Well, if you have all the weight crammed in the middle, like a wheel, it doesn't come apart, right?

01:56:16.000 Now imagine if you had like...

01:56:18.000 Yeah.

01:56:42.000 That actually makes a lot of sense if you can conceptualize it like an object.

01:56:45.000 There's really a damn good YouTube video floating around out there where somebody takes a jet of water and spins a skateboard wheel until the centrifugal force gets so high from it spinning so fast it rips it apart.

01:56:56.000 It's worth looking up.

01:56:57.000 I don't know what the hell you'd search to find it, but...

01:57:00.000 It's a powerful visual, and you can see it.

01:57:02.000 As stuff moves to the outside, the centrifugal force goes up and up and up until finally the structural integrity of the thing that's spinning can't hold itself together anymore.

01:57:11.000 It rips apart.

01:57:12.000 Well, listen, gentlemen, and shout out to your friend, what is her name again?

01:57:16.000 Mike Nina.

01:57:17.000 Oh, Helen Pluckrose.

01:57:18.000 Oh, Helen Pluckrose, yeah.

01:57:20.000 Pluckrose across the pond.

01:57:22.000 Thank you guys for doing this.

01:57:23.000 We really appreciate it.

01:57:24.000 Thanks for being here.

01:57:25.000 Yeah, man.

01:57:25.000 We appreciate your support because we need support.

01:57:28.000 We can't do this without support, so thanks for having us.

01:57:31.000 My pleasure.

01:57:32.000 Thanks for doing it.

01:57:33.000 Where can people see these things?

01:57:34.000 Where can they read them?

01:57:35.000 The best place to go is going to be to go to our filmmaker's YouTube page, Mike Naina on the YouTube.

01:57:41.000 N-A-N-A? N-A-Y-N-A. N-A-Y-N-A. Yeah, so on his YouTube page is some videos. 0.99

01:57:47.000 He's kind of playing with the footage that he's collecting for the documentary.

01:57:50.000 On top of that, though, if you go to the video we originally released, which is on the page, you can find it easily.

01:57:55.000 There's the link to the Google Drive.

01:57:57.000 There's a link to all of the documents we put out.

01:57:58.000 To our aerial piece, we explained what every paper does, why we wrote it, what we were trying to show with writing the papers, what the problem is that we need to address, and what we think that this shows and what we can do.

01:58:13.000 Yeah, it's all accessible through his YouTube channel.

01:58:16.000 We're kind of making that the central hub.

01:58:17.000 And so people can go there and explore and watch some more videos of us.

01:58:21.000 Well, thanks for being here.

01:58:22.000 This was a lot of fun.

01:58:23.000 I appreciate it.

01:58:24.000 Again, I really appreciate what you guys are doing.

01:58:26.000 Thanks, man.

01:58:26.000 Thank you.

01:58:27.000 Bye, everybody.

01:58:31.000 Thank you again.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 30, 2018

Joe Rogan Experience #1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

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