The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1254 - Dr. Phil

00:00:00.000 Five, four, three, two, one.

00:00:09.000 Is it hanging up on us?

00:00:11.000 We're live?

00:00:12.000 We're live.

00:00:13.000 Dr. Phil.

00:00:14.000 We're live.

00:00:15.000 Someone's calling you.

00:00:16.000 What's going on? 1.00

00:00:17.000 Some of those people I was trying to find, now they're saying, oh, shit. 1.00

00:00:23.000 Yeah, let them worry. 0.99

00:00:25.000 Out of all the years you've been doing your show and all the years you've been giving advice, how did this catch me outside, girl?

00:00:34.000 How did this happen?

00:00:34.000 Oh, God.

00:00:37.000 I mean, out of all the different shows, you made a monster.

00:00:43.000 I know.

00:00:44.000 I mean, it's my moment of infamy.

00:00:47.000 You know, seriously, this girl comes on with her mother, and her mother actually brings her on, of course, and she's a train wreck, and we work with her, and we send her to this ranch for like four months, right?

00:01:02.000 She goes for a long time, and Makes a complete turnaround. 0.69

00:01:07.000 Does really a great job.

00:01:08.000 They say she's become a leader.

00:01:11.000 She's working with all these girls, doing a great job. 0.99

00:01:14.000 And then she graduates.

00:01:17.000 And I remember this last shot when we do this piece at the ranch.

00:01:23.000 She jumps up on this fence and is smiling and everything and waving and all. 0.61

00:01:29.000 One night home with her mother.

00:01:31.000 One night home.

00:01:33.000 And her mother's finding people that are trashing her, the mother, on these social media platforms. 0.93

00:01:39.000 Her mother tracks them down, backs into who they are, gets their phone numbers, calls them up, yelling into the phone, calling them names and stuff, gets the daughter involved. 0.96

00:01:50.000 One night, crashes.

00:01:52.000 So they come back for a follow-up, like, I don't know, a month or two later.

00:01:57.000 And when they come, I say, okay, we're going to have them back.

00:02:01.000 They walk out.

00:02:03.000 I have the audience completely empty.

00:02:05.000 I have nobody there to play to.

00:02:07.000 I mean, 250 chairs, empty, nobody in the house but me, the mother, and the daughter.

00:02:12.000 That's a good move.

00:02:13.000 And they go, where is everybody else?

00:02:18.000 Well, you don't need anybody.

00:02:19.000 We're just here to talk and keep things rolling, right?

00:02:22.000 And they were dumbstruck.

00:02:24.000 There was nobody there to showboat for or play to, and that was like a 15-minute interview.

00:02:30.000 They had nothing to say.

00:02:31.000 And off they go, and then this phrase that got turned into a, you know, whatever, a meme or whatever they call it, it just went crazy, and what, she was nominated for a Grammy or something?

00:02:49.000 I'm serious!

00:02:54.000 So I take no credit or blame.

00:02:58.000 You know, I just did what I could and haven't seen her since.

00:03:00.000 I wish everybody well.

00:03:02.000 Maybe she'll turn – maybe it'll grow her up and she'll turn something positive out, but I hope so.

00:03:06.000 Well, that's a very good attitude, a very healthy attitude for you.

00:03:08.000 But it is – when something goes viral like that, something strange that for whatever reason, it catches and takes off, it's – It doesn't make any sense.

00:03:17.000 It's a very weird thing.

00:03:18.000 It makes no sense.

00:03:19.000 She's on a billboard on Sunset.

00:03:21.000 A giant billboard.

00:03:22.000 Oh, really?

00:03:23.000 Huge.

00:03:25.000 Enormous billboard.

00:03:26.000 It's like one of those side-of-the-building billboards where they put the graphic up and it covers the entire building.

00:03:33.000 It makes no sense.

00:03:35.000 Seriously?

00:03:36.000 Seriously.

00:03:36.000 There's people curing cancer and you can't find them with both hands.

00:03:40.000 Exactly.

00:03:40.000 Nobody has any idea who won the last Nobel Prize for science.

00:03:45.000 But, you know, more power to her.

00:03:48.000 If she can turn into something positive, does she have talent?

00:03:51.000 Have you ever heard any of her music or anything?

00:03:53.000 No, I have no idea.

00:03:54.000 I've only seen her on your show say, catch me outside. 1.00

00:03:57.000 Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.

00:03:58.000 Sorry!

00:04:02.000 But it's just so strange that one train wreck could, for whatever reason, catch on, and then all of a sudden it's gigantic.

00:04:10.000 They say that somebody signed her and paid her millions of dollars.

00:04:13.000 Seriously.

00:04:14.000 Yeah, she got close to a million dollars from a makeup company. 0.99

00:04:18.000 Really?

00:04:19.000 Yeah.

00:04:19.000 Oh, well, okay, there you go.

00:04:21.000 I mean, if that's happening, right, like, what would your advice be then? 1.00

00:04:25.000 Would your advice be, hey, get your shit together and stop being crazy? 0.99

00:04:30.000 Well, she's making a lot of money off of being crazy, and her opportunities before that were probably severely limited. 1.00

00:04:37.000 Well, they had to be, and what I hope now, that this, even though this certainly is...

00:04:43.000 A quirk.

00:04:44.000 What I hope now is that she's surrounded by mature people with business heads on their shoulders and development people that will actually guide this in a way that it's not 15 minutes.

00:04:58.000 Right.

00:04:58.000 Yeah.

00:04:59.000 You never know.

00:05:00.000 You know, that's what I hope.

00:05:01.000 Well, everybody thought the Kardashians were going to be 15 minutes, and it's been 15 years.

00:05:05.000 Yeah.

00:05:06.000 But there's been, you know, people make fun of them, and there's some good things there to make fun of.

00:05:13.000 They do things to be made fun of.

00:05:15.000 But there's also some very smart business and branding that's gone into that as well.

00:05:20.000 Oh, 100%.

00:05:20.000 And, you know, and I was actually very impressed with her that she actually went to the White House to talk about prison reform for people that are unjustly accused and have been in jail for too long for things that they didn't do.

00:05:33.000 And that's something she's actually passionate about.

00:05:35.000 Yeah, and I know Kim, and she's actually a very nice girl, very smart, and as I say, they've done some very brilliant branding, and it's certainly paid off.

00:05:45.000 It's just so fascinating when something catches like that girl.

00:05:48.000 What is her name, the Catch Me Outside girl?

00:05:51.000 Danielle Bregoli or something?

00:05:54.000 Yeah.

00:05:54.000 Something like that, yeah.

00:05:55.000 Because I didn't know her as the Catch Me Outside girl.

00:05:59.000 But if she didn't say that one phrase... 0.96

00:06:02.000 Yeah.

00:06:03.000 And she just said that, I think, to her grandmother or somebody in the audience.

00:06:07.000 I don't know.

00:06:07.000 It didn't even register with us at the time.

00:06:10.000 Wow.

00:06:11.000 It wasn't a standout phrase in the interview or anything.

00:06:15.000 It just passed by.

00:06:16.000 Somebody just grabbed it.

00:06:17.000 And then it became a meme.

00:06:19.000 Yeah.

00:06:21.000 What a weird world we live in.

00:06:22.000 Yeah, no kidding.

00:06:24.000 I mean, it has to be a lot of responsibility to try to give people advice and try to straighten their life out and show them the flaws and the errors that they're making.

00:06:36.000 Yeah, it is.

00:06:37.000 People ask me sometimes, they say, you know, Dr. Field, do you think problems are as simple as you make them out to be?

00:06:46.000 And the truth is, I don't think problems are simple at all.

00:06:50.000 In fact, I think problems are really, most of the time, pretty complex.

00:06:54.000 They're pretty layered.

00:06:56.000 They have a lot of different origins.

00:06:59.000 And they're oftentimes comorbid.

00:07:01.000 A lot of things exist together.

00:07:02.000 So I don't think problems are simple at all.

00:07:06.000 But the solutions are often simple, don't you think?

00:07:10.000 It's kind of like the old joke, you go to the doctor and you say, this hurts.

00:07:14.000 And he says, well, then don't do that anymore.

00:07:17.000 A lot of times it's very simple in that somebody will have a complex thing that comes from childhood or maybe it's a drug background or they've had trauma in their life.

00:07:28.000 But the solution is change your behavior.

00:07:32.000 I mean, stop rewarding bad behavior.

00:07:35.000 Choose a different path in life.

00:07:37.000 Just behave your way to success.

00:07:39.000 Sometimes the solutions are very simple even though the problems are very complex because at some point you have to stop focusing on why and start focusing on what.

00:07:49.000 Instead of why it happened, what am I going to do to change it?

00:07:51.000 So sometimes the solutions are pretty simple.

00:07:53.000 But implementing those solutions, it's often very difficult for people to change their lives, change their patterns.

00:08:00.000 It is.

00:08:00.000 And patterns is the key.

00:08:04.000 Nobody does anything in pattern if they don't get a payoff.

00:08:09.000 And if you can identify, that's why insight's so important.

00:08:15.000 That's why I think it's the number one outcome to whether somebody's going to respond to a talking therapy, for example.

00:08:22.000 If somebody can identify what their payoff is, where they really can figure out I'm doing this repeatedly and my payoff is I don't have to work or I don't get held accountable for this or I'm escaping accountability over here or I get attention or sympathy.

00:08:42.000 If they can figure out what their payoff is and they can then control that, whether it's for themselves or their kids or whatever, if you control the currency, then you can control the behavior.

00:08:53.000 Yeah, it just seems that people have this comfort in their patterns.

00:09:00.000 And even if their patterns are self-destructive, even if it's drug abuse or alcoholism, the comfort in those patterns, falling into those patterns, it seems very compelling to a lot of people.

00:09:12.000 Yeah, and payoffs don't necessarily mean that it's a positive payoff.

00:09:15.000 Right.

00:09:16.000 I mean, a payoff for taking heroin is you get high.

00:09:19.000 And so you're high for a while.

00:09:21.000 That's not a positive payoff, but it's a payoff.

00:09:23.000 And if you get high and so you don't get a job and you don't take care of your kids, that's a payoff that you're not doing things that you need to do that you should be accountable for.

00:09:38.000 It's a pathological payoff, but it's a payoff nonetheless.

00:09:41.000 And so that does reward you even though it's a pathological payoff.

00:09:46.000 It's a pathological thing.

00:09:48.000 You call it a reward.

00:09:51.000 But if you can identify that where they say, look, I'm not doing what I need to do and I need to stop rewarding myself in that way and hold myself – I need to be there for my kid.

00:10:02.000 I tell my kid I'm going to be there every day and I don't show up because I'm high on drugs, then I need to stop doing it.

00:10:09.000 I need to not let myself get away with that and instead require myself to show up for the kid when I say I do, say I will.

00:10:18.000 And then you see what's in the kid's eyes.

00:10:21.000 You share the experience with them.

00:10:23.000 Now that becomes your payoff.

00:10:25.000 So then you'll start showing up for your kid.

00:10:26.000 Yeah.

00:10:27.000 How many people take your advice?

00:10:29.000 How many people just listened and try for a little bit and then bail?

00:10:33.000 You know, it's hard to say because I think sometimes our most productive guests are the ones that don't get it.

00:10:44.000 Because the mail we get, they'll say, oh wow, that guy didn't get it or that woman didn't get it, but I saw myself in them and I'll never say that again.

00:10:57.000 I saw them being such a right fighter or I saw them being so hard-headed or so oppositional and I heard them say things I've said and And they left and didn't get it.

00:11:12.000 I got it.

00:11:13.000 I'll never do that again.

00:11:15.000 So sometimes those that don't get it at all while they're there are the ones that are the best teaching tools for the millions of people that are home watching.

00:11:23.000 Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

00:11:25.000 When you watch people fail and you go, oh, okay, I see that in myself.

00:11:29.000 I just got to not do what that guy's doing.

00:11:31.000 And then also you see the stubborn pig-headedness that some people have where they won't listen to advice.

00:11:36.000 And you could clearly see how they're ruining their lives by not being honest.

00:11:42.000 Yeah, and sometimes the story that we might have is maybe extreme where you say, I don't do all six things they're doing, but I do two of them.

00:11:51.000 And they are in sharp relief to me.

00:11:53.000 So I get that.

00:11:54.000 I ain't gonna do that anymore.

00:11:56.000 So, I mean, that's where I think you get a payoff.

00:11:59.000 And, you know, people go and find these things on the internet.

00:12:04.000 I mean, last year, you know, we have a channel where we put up, you know, different clips and divorce shows or parenting shows or whatever.

00:12:11.000 And we had over 2 billion views, you know, last year of people just going and finding that information and looking at it.

00:12:19.000 So, I know people are seeking the information out and looking at it beyond the show itself, so they must be seeking information, and we just don't have a good distribution system for mental health in America, so I think they're hungry for it and they look for it.

00:12:35.000 Well, there's so many people out there that are trying to do better.

00:12:38.000 They're trying to get their lives in order.

00:12:40.000 And shows like yours and just advice shows, people that are giving out inspiration and knowledge, it's such an important thing for people, especially for people that didn't grow up with wise parents or maybe a good support system around them.

00:12:56.000 You know, I think that's true.

00:12:59.000 I grew up with an alcoholic father, and it was a pretty violent home, and he was a really bad alcoholic.

00:13:08.000 And I know having grown up in that, you wind up with what I call a damaged personal truth, and you feel second class.

00:13:24.000 The problem that kids make, because I know I did it and I see others do it, is you compare your personal truth, what you know about yourself and how you really live and what's really going on,

00:13:39.000 you compare your personal truth to everybody else's social mask.

00:13:45.000 Because you go to school and you know, well, I know that last night the windows got kicked out of my house.

00:13:52.000 I know that the utilities got turned off.

00:13:54.000 And I know there was a big fight in my kitchen last night.

00:13:58.000 And the kid sitting next to me, he's got on a shirt that's all ironed and his face is all bright and clean.

00:14:05.000 And, you know, he looks like he's just got it all together.

00:14:08.000 And you compare yourself to that person, that kid, and you feel like you're second class.

00:14:14.000 And the problem with that is we generate the results in life we think we deserve.

00:14:20.000 So if you think you're damaged, you think you're second class, you will generate results that you think a second class person deserves. 1.00

00:14:30.000 So if you don't fix your personal truth...

00:14:34.000 Then you'll spend the rest of your life saying, well, those really good results, those belong for somebody else.

00:14:39.000 It's not for me.

00:14:41.000 That's for somebody else.

00:14:42.000 And you'll settle for second best, and you won't get what you might otherwise generate for yourself if you don't fix your personal truth.

00:14:51.000 And so I think a lot of people are struggling looking for a way to kind of get out of feeling not good about themselves and damage self-esteem, damage self-worth, and they really don't know where to go.

00:15:03.000 And that's why I do the show.

00:15:05.000 Look, I'm not under the misapprehension that we're doing eight-minute cures up there.

00:15:09.000 I mean, come on.

00:15:10.000 We're not doing that.

00:15:12.000 But I think if you can point people in the right direction, if you can...

00:15:16.000 I think?

00:15:25.000 Is there stuff I need to resolve?

00:15:27.000 I mean, what am I saying to myself?

00:15:29.000 If you can get them thinking about that, then, you know, maybe you've done something.

00:15:32.000 Yeah, you know, Tony Robbins once said once that it's incremental changes over the long haul, and the way you have to look at it is if these two boats are going in a parallel direction and one of them just shifts five degrees, over the course of time, this boat is going to be in a far different place than the other boat that's going the same way it was always going.

00:15:49.000 Yeah, and the important thing to realize as well is the next year is going to go by whether you're doing something about your life or not.

00:15:57.000 I mean, we're sitting here right now at the end of February, and the next...

00:16:05.000 Ten months are going to go by whether somebody is working to make change or whether they're not.

00:16:11.000 And they may think, you know, oh my God, I'm so far overweight, I'll never get it under control, or I'm so behind in my bills, or I'm so, you know, just depressed, or everything is so out of control.

00:16:25.000 Well, you know what?

00:16:26.000 You make those incremental changes and then, you know, pretty soon in December you go, hey, I'm way better off than I was at the end of February. 0.98

00:16:36.000 So, shit, you made little changes and they all added up. 0.96

00:16:39.000 And if you don't, by the end of the year, you're just in deeper. 1.00

00:16:42.000 So every little bit matters.

00:16:44.000 Yeah, I tell people to write things down.

00:16:46.000 I say one of the best ways to get things done is to write things down.

00:16:49.000 Write down what you're trying to get done.

00:16:51.000 Write down what you need to get done on a long-term basis and what you need to get done on a short-term basis.

00:16:55.000 And write off a checklist.

00:16:56.000 Force yourself.

00:16:57.000 Be accountable.

00:16:58.000 Yeah, the difference between a dream and a goal is a timeline and accountability.

00:17:03.000 Yeah, accountability is gigantic.

00:17:05.000 You've got to have somebody, whether it's yourself or a friend or somebody that's going to say, look, did you do what you said you were going to do by this time?

00:17:14.000 And if you don't, hold your feet to the fire.

00:17:16.000 Because...

00:17:17.000 I mean, just sitting around dreaming, someday, you know, someday I'm going to get a different job.

00:17:22.000 Someday I'm going to change this.

00:17:24.000 Well, someday ain't a day of the week.

00:17:27.000 You know, there's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

00:17:29.000 Look on your calendar.

00:17:30.000 Someday's not on there.

00:17:31.000 So you've got to say, okay, I'm going to take this small step by here, this small step by there, this small step by there, and then pretty soon, you know, we don't leap tall buildings in a single bound.

00:17:42.000 We take it a floor at a time.

00:17:44.000 Over all the years you've been doing your show, you've developed a real community, right?

00:17:48.000 I mean, you really have made an impact.

00:17:51.000 If you stop and think about all the people that your show has touched, and all the people that have listened to your advice, and all the people that have taken that advice, and made those little incremental changes in their lives, and set those goals, and held themselves accountable, that's a pretty significant thing.

00:18:05.000 Well, I hope so.

00:18:06.000 I mean, I think, I know that There's a stigma attached to mental illness, and that really bothers me.

00:18:16.000 There should not be.

00:18:17.000 I mean, having depression or anxiety or whatever, to me, should have no more stigma than having a knee injury or kidney infection or diabetes.

00:18:30.000 But there is a stigma attached to it.

00:18:33.000 And I've tried to talk about this in a way where it's okay to talk about it and not be ashamed of it.

00:18:40.000 It's okay.

00:18:41.000 If you've got anxiety, you've got PTSD, whatever, it's okay.

00:18:46.000 Let's talk about it.

00:18:47.000 Let's get help for it.

00:18:48.000 Get it behind you and move on.

00:18:49.000 I mean, it's not something that you should be ashamed of.

00:18:53.000 When you're talking to someone that maybe has depression, do you try to get them to exercise first?

00:18:59.000 Do you try to get them to visit a psychiatrist immediately and get on medication?

00:19:04.000 Do you take it on a case-by-case basis?

00:19:06.000 Well, I do, but you have to approach it.

00:19:09.000 Everybody has a philosophy about it, and I'm not saying that mine's any better than anybody else's, but I do have a philosophy about it, and I'm very slow to medication.

00:19:21.000 I mean, I think you use medication for biochemical replacement.

00:19:27.000 I mean, if for some reason your body is not making enough of something it needs, then maybe you support it short-term biochemically.

00:19:37.000 But, you know, I look at depression...

00:19:43.000 There's a lot of ways you can break it up, but I look at it like, is it exogenous depression or endogenous depression?

00:19:50.000 I mean, is it coming from the inside out or the outside in?

00:19:54.000 Is it because you're reacting to something?

00:19:56.000 I see a lot of depressed people that In a sense, it makes sense.

00:20:02.000 I mean, you look at their life and you say, well, if you're not down about this, you should be.

00:20:07.000 I mean, you've lost your job.

00:20:09.000 You've gotten a divorce.

00:20:11.000 Your health is in the shitter.

00:20:13.000 I mean, you should be down about this.

00:20:15.000 It's external things.

00:20:17.000 So you don't need a pill.

00:20:20.000 I mean, put somebody in a chemical straitjacket because their life's falling apart.

00:20:24.000 What the hell is that going to do?

00:20:26.000 Yeah.

00:20:27.000 That's just putting goggles on them where they can't see it.

00:20:30.000 I would much rather get them to behave their way to success and say, what are you reacting to that you're depressed about?

00:20:39.000 Let's put that on a to-do list and start like you said.

00:20:42.000 Write it down.

00:20:44.000 And start crossing those things off.

00:20:46.000 Let's figure, what's an action plan to change this?

00:20:48.000 Action plan to change the next thing?

00:20:50.000 And then when you start doing that, then you generally see their mood lift.

00:20:55.000 A lot of people that are depressed are just realistically reacting to a crummy circumstance in their life.

00:21:02.000 It's not necessarily a...

00:21:04.000 A mental illness, it's just a realistic reaction to a bad spot in their life.

00:21:10.000 Yeah, that's such a good way of putting it, too, that if you weren't in a bad state looking at this, there might be something wrong with you.

00:21:17.000 Yeah, you're in denial.

00:21:18.000 I mean, if you've gotten a divorce, lost your job, your health's in bad shape, your kids are alienated from you, and you're saying, I'm fine.

00:21:29.000 Then you're not in touch with reality.

00:21:31.000 You should be bothered by that.

00:21:34.000 And I think to give somebody a pill, to mask your feelings about that, just keeps you off task.

00:21:43.000 Pain's a good motivator.

00:21:46.000 I grew up in Texas and Oklahoma.

00:21:50.000 And I don't know if you've ever done this, but I used to spend my summers in the thriving metropolis of Mundy, Texas.

00:21:59.000 You ever heard of Mundy, Texas?

00:22:00.000 It's M-U-N. It's a U, not an O. M-U-N-D-A-Y. It's got like 2,000 people in it. 0.98

00:22:09.000 But in the summers, it would get hot in Mundy, Texas.

00:22:14.000 When I say hot, I mean you look out in the backyard and your dog burst into flames.

00:22:19.000 That's what I'm talking about.

00:22:21.000 So we would be going to the swimming pool or something, barefooted. 0.93

00:22:25.000 And you get halfway across an asphalt road, and you look down, and you're, I mean, like, holy shit, I mean, your feet are just on fire. 0.95

00:22:34.000 So what are you going to do? 0.93

00:22:36.000 I mean, that is painful.

00:22:38.000 You're going to do one of two things. 0.76

00:22:39.000 You're either going to make a U-turn and get your ass back over to the side of the road and get in the grass, or you're going to run to the other side and get off the road and get in the grass. 0.91

00:22:48.000 But you're not going to stand there in the middle of the road and melt yourself down to the knees. 0.96

00:22:53.000 Right.

00:22:54.000 Pain is a motivator.

00:22:56.000 Pain is not necessarily always bad.

00:22:59.000 If you're in pain, it's going to motivate you to move, to change something, and to mask that with drugs, to dull that pain with drugs is not necessarily a good thing.

00:23:09.000 That is wise, wise advice.

00:23:12.000 And I wish more people thought that way, particularly more doctors.

00:23:15.000 You know, I have so many friends that have gone to a doctor because they're not feeling so good, and they're almost immediately wanting to throw them on something.

00:23:21.000 Yeah, that's not smart.

00:23:23.000 In all the years you've been doing this, have you noticed, like, was depression as prevalent?

00:23:29.000 Like, the term depression?

00:23:30.000 It doesn't, I mean...

00:23:32.000 I don't really remember it being a thing when I was a kid that was discussed the way it's discussed now.

00:23:38.000 Now it's discussed the way people discuss all sorts of other ailments.

00:23:43.000 Is it just an awareness thing, or is it just people are thinking about it now in different terms?

00:23:48.000 Well, I think it's part of the narrative now, and I think with social media, with the internet, not just social media, but with the internet, I think there's just a lot more in the nomenclature, and there's a lot more awareness about it.

00:24:05.000 But I think it was just as prevalent in the 50s and 60s as it was now.

00:24:09.000 But in the 50s and 60s, there wasn't a psychologist on every corner.

00:24:14.000 And there is now.

00:24:16.000 And there wasn't subdoctoral licensing then.

00:24:20.000 What does that mean?

00:24:21.000 Well, back then, you had to have a PhD or an MD as a psychiatrist to see patients.

00:24:28.000 Now they have marriage and family therapists.

00:24:30.000 They have licensed social workers.

00:24:31.000 They have different levels.

00:24:34.000 Where you can do independent practice.

00:24:36.000 So that's broadened the number of people that can provide services.

00:24:42.000 And some people think that's a good thing.

00:24:43.000 Some people think it's not.

00:24:45.000 I generally think it's a good thing because I think – Fifty-eight percent of our rural markets today have no psychiatrist available and something like 50 or roughly have no mental health professional available at all.

00:25:07.000 None.

00:25:07.000 So there's just nobody available to help people in the outlying areas.

00:25:14.000 I think the more people you can get into the profession, so long as there's a degree of competency, is better.

00:25:21.000 But, you know, I think it's always been prevalent.

00:25:23.000 I just think people didn't talk about it very much.

00:25:25.000 It's just something they swallowed or they took to church or, you know.

00:25:30.000 When you see, you know, all these folks that are on medication today, I mean, how many of these people do you think legitimately should be on medication?

00:25:39.000 I mean, is it something you can assess?

00:25:43.000 You know, I can't answer that in terms, I mean, I'm sure there's research of people, how many people are on medication, but in my personal experience, Most of the people that I see on medications,

00:26:01.000 in my opinion, don't need most of the medications they're on.

00:26:06.000 Now, that's just anecdotal.

00:26:08.000 That's my opinion.

00:26:09.000 You asked me to hand you a research survey or study to support that.

00:26:13.000 I can't hand it to you or I can't point you to one.

00:26:16.000 I can just tell you, after 45 years in this experience...

00:26:20.000 I see people that are on medication, they've usually seen someone for six or eight minutes and said, you know, I'm really feeling kind of down or blue.

00:26:33.000 Here's some Prozac, here's this, here's that.

00:26:36.000 They give it to them and they don't even really ask why.

00:26:41.000 And they just give it to them because medicine has become a high volume business.

00:26:48.000 And that's not necessarily the doctor's fault.

00:26:50.000 I mean, the way that it's now funded and Medicare and Medicaid, you've got to turn them and burn them.

00:26:56.000 Or you can't stay in business.

00:26:58.000 And so it's a high-volume business.

00:27:00.000 And so they throw pills at them because they don't have an hour to sit down or don't take an hour to sit down and talk about it and say, well, let's find out what's going on.

00:27:08.000 Is there a reason?

00:27:09.000 Like I said, if this guy's got...

00:27:11.000 Five parts of his life that have gone down, or a woman who's got three or four areas of her life that have really gone down in quality.

00:27:20.000 Then they should be having poor mood.

00:27:23.000 So why mask that?

00:27:25.000 Let's come up with an action plan and change it.

00:27:28.000 So most of the people I see on medication, not all, but most of the people I see are on too many medications in too high a dose or either don't need it at all.

00:27:40.000 And I'm really bothered by polypharmacy.

00:27:43.000 That's where I really get frustrated.

00:27:46.000 Yeah, this is, I think what you're saying is a very common sense approach, but it's not the norm today.

00:27:52.000 No.

00:27:52.000 It seems like more people are treating this, you know, air quotes, depression issue as if it's a medical disorder like diabetes or something where you need medication.

00:28:02.000 Yeah, and look, for a lot of people it works.

00:28:06.000 I mean, you give people a mood elevator and they say, hey, I feel better.

00:28:10.000 And then maybe they change their life.

00:28:12.000 Maybe they move their life into a more positive direction.

00:28:14.000 They can wean themselves off of it.

00:28:16.000 Because one of the things about depression, for example, you use that as an example, is you get what's referred to as psychomotor retardation. 0.98

00:28:24.000 There's a lessening in activity level.

00:28:29.000 And I think old sayings get to be old sayings because they're profound, like you're not going to get a hit if you're not swinging.

00:28:36.000 Well, if you're depressed and so you think slower, less actively, you behave less actively, Your chance of getting rewarded goes down,

00:28:51.000 right?

00:28:51.000 You don't get out there and you don't mix it up socially as much.

00:28:55.000 You don't apply for jobs as much.

00:28:57.000 You're not as productive on your job as much.

00:29:00.000 So you're less likely to get strokes.

00:29:02.000 You're less likely to get rewarded.

00:29:04.000 Well, maybe you go take a pill and it lifts your mood up so you get more active and so now you start getting pats on the back.

00:29:11.000 You start getting people to engage with you more.

00:29:13.000 So that lifts your mood and that takes care of it.

00:29:16.000 So you took the medication short term, you're lifted back up and you're okay.

00:29:21.000 Short term, it can be an alternative.

00:29:25.000 But I've seen people on everything from opioids to mood elevators for years, and that's where you lose me.

00:29:35.000 I just don't get it.

00:29:36.000 Yeah, I know people that have been on things since they were five years old, and they're in their 40s.

00:29:42.000 And then you have wastebasket diagnosis like ADD and ADHD, where what used to be a spoiled brat It's now ADD or ADHD, so they start prescribing these neocortical stimulants like Ritalin.

00:30:00.000 And if you give a kid that does not need a neocortical stimulant a stimulant, you're really going to throw them off the charts now because you've got a normally active brain that you're now making hyperactive.

00:30:16.000 So You're creating a problem that didn't exist before you gave them the medication because you didn't do the proper diagnosis.

00:30:23.000 Yeah, I had my old neighbor had a situation like that.

00:30:26.000 They had a kid, and the kid just had a lot of energy, and they weren't paying attention to him.

00:30:30.000 And so they started medicating him.

00:30:33.000 It's insanely common.

00:30:34.000 Yeah, and you cannot chemically babysit your children.

00:30:38.000 And who knows where these kids are going to be 20, 30 years from now.

00:30:41.000 I mean, we're just looking at...

00:30:43.000 This rash of people being treated for these ailments, air quotes, and then we're not seeing how this all turns out in the long run and how much damage we're doing to these people.

00:30:53.000 No.

00:30:53.000 And in fairness, on the other end of the continuum, I have seen some people that are clearly psychotic, schizophrenic, delusional, that without medication are absolutely impossible to manage.

00:31:12.000 But if you put them on antipsychotics, so you can lower their delusional behavior, their hallucinatory behavior, so you can now have a meaningful conversation with them, so they can respond to talking therapies.

00:31:30.000 It makes all the difference in the world.

00:31:31.000 And without those antipsychotics, you would be lost without them.

00:31:36.000 So there are some medications for some disorders that are absolute miracles that without them you wouldn't be able to do the work you need to do to get the person back where they need to be.

00:31:46.000 Yeah, unquestionably.

00:31:47.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of great pharmaceutical drugs that help a lot of people.

00:31:50.000 Do you get pushback from a lot of these positions from the established medical community?

00:31:56.000 You know, sometimes.

00:31:57.000 But, you know, Mostly when you talk to people about it thoughtfully, they agree with what I'm saying.

00:32:09.000 I mean, most people will agree that you need to be thoughtful about prescribing medications and that medications are too readily administered.

00:32:20.000 I mean, that's certainly what we've seen in the opioid epidemic right now.

00:32:25.000 Opioids are so readily prescribed right now that there are enough opioid prescriptions for every man, woman and child in America to have their own bottle.

00:32:36.000 And if you renew that prescription one time, One time.

00:32:42.000 If you are taking those opioids at the seven-day mark, your chance of being addicted at one year is one in 12. And if you renew it at, if you're still taking them at 30 days, your likelihood of being addicted is one in three.

00:32:59.000 Wow.

00:33:00.000 And these things are getting written with way too high a pill count.

00:33:07.000 And so the addictions, we're seeing a whole different kind of addiction now coming out of the suburbs.

00:33:17.000 And they take them for a while, and they're very expensive.

00:33:20.000 And after they take them for a while, heroin's cheaper.

00:33:23.000 So they dump the opioids and start taking heroin.

00:33:26.000 So you're seeing soccer mom heroin addicts.

00:33:29.000 That you weren't seeing 10 years ago because they get started on prescription opioids and then they can't afford them or finally the doctor cuts them off but they're addicted and so they start taking heroin because it's cheaper.

00:33:41.000 Now this is obviously a very disturbing pattern but where do you see this going?

00:33:45.000 Like when you look at the future I mean it looks bleak in that regard.

00:33:48.000 I mean I've known several people that have had real problems with pills.

00:33:52.000 Yeah.

00:33:53.000 The problem that I think people have is they think, because a doctor gave me this, because it's on a prescription pad, that this is safe.

00:34:01.000 Your body doesn't know whether you got that in the back alley or you got it from a doctor.

00:34:07.000 It still has the same addictive quality.

00:34:09.000 And I think it is at an epidemic level.

00:34:11.000 And I've testified before Congress about this.

00:34:16.000 I think there are several levels of accountability at the manufacturing level and at the prescription level and at the educational level so people understand.

00:34:26.000 I think everybody has to take part of it and I'm doing everything I can to raise the awareness about it as well.

00:34:32.000 When you testified before Congress, what was the reaction?

00:34:35.000 They're very much aware that this has become a serious, serious problem because the cost, as you see the lost Labor in the workforce is in the billions of dollars.

00:35:24.000 What could they do, though?

00:35:26.000 It seems like once that genie's out of the bottle...

00:35:30.000 Well, clearly, you've got to start educating people and the manufacturers have to be required to start labeling this much more clearly.

00:35:43.000 Physicians have to be much more conservative in prescribing.

00:35:50.000 You know, I just had this shoulder surgery and I took like one One opioid, one pill they gave me in the hospital.

00:36:02.000 And after that, you can manage it with like Tylenol or something.

00:36:08.000 Because the surgeons now are so good with the arthroscopic surgeries and stuff.

00:36:12.000 It's so much less of an insult to the body that with ice and Tylenol and stuff, you can manage it if you just kind of focus on it a little bit.

00:36:25.000 And I'm not saying if you've had surgery and you're having organic pain, for God's sakes, get ahead of the pain and stay ahead.

00:36:33.000 But as soon as you can get off of it, get off of it.

00:36:37.000 Yeah, and understand what's happening.

00:36:38.000 Yeah, there's no sense in being like macho.

00:36:40.000 We don't need a leather strap between your teeth to go have some surgery. 1.00

00:36:43.000 I mean, shit, if it hurts, take the pill, get past it, but realize... 0.99

00:36:48.000 The minute you can get away from that, you need to get away from it. 1.00

00:36:51.000 But, you know, they don't need to give you a 30-day supply.

00:36:54.000 They need to give you three or four days, and then you've got to go see your doctor again, and if it's still a problem, discuss it.

00:37:02.000 I mean, that's what I think needs to happen, is just be a lot more conservative about what you're giving.

00:37:07.000 The problem is these pharmaceutical companies make so much money.

00:37:10.000 They don't want to back off that.

00:37:13.000 They've got private jets and yachts to pay for.

00:37:15.000 Yeah, and they're starting to shut down some of these – they had some of these pill clinics and pain clinics in Florida where you could go in without an x-ray, without an MRI, and just say you had back pain and there was a doctor there that would give you a 90-count prescription on the spot,

00:37:31.000 no questions asked, 90. And you're out the door and you go down the street to the next one.

00:37:37.000 Yeah, because there was no database.

00:37:38.000 No database.

00:37:39.000 And that doctor might be a foreign doctor that flew in from offshore, wrote all the prescriptions during the day, flew off again at night.

00:37:46.000 And now they're shutting that stuff down, so the hammer's coming down.

00:37:51.000 Well, one can only hope.

00:37:54.000 When you've been doing your show as long as you've been doing it, and I'm sure you've made a ton of loot, what makes you want to do a podcast?

00:38:03.000 Why are you doing that?

00:38:05.000 Well...

00:38:06.000 My interest has been, you know, saying there are a lot of people getting their information on the internet by getting clips of the show and that sort of thing.

00:38:20.000 And it's clear to me That is, the population is changing.

00:38:26.000 I'm an old guy, but younger people are getting their information in different ways.

00:38:32.000 They're going to the internet, and the digital menu has got to be readily available, and you can reach a lot of people that way that you wouldn't reach the other way.

00:38:44.000 There's a whole population Yeah.

00:39:06.000 You know, that's what you're doing.

00:39:07.000 My goal is to spread the message and get what I think is important to say out there.

00:39:13.000 So, I mean, I'll shout it from the rooftops if I think that's effective.

00:39:18.000 I want to do anything that's scalable to get the message out there.

00:39:24.000 And to me, I'm doing some different things in the podcast than I'm doing on the show.

00:39:31.000 On the show, I've got a fact pattern in front of me.

00:39:34.000 I've got a story.

00:39:35.000 I've got a family.

00:39:36.000 I've got an individual that's got a specific fact pattern.

00:39:39.000 I'm dealing with that fact pattern.

00:39:41.000 In the podcast, I'm not solving a problem.

00:39:44.000 I don't have somebody there that has a problem for me to solve.

00:39:49.000 I'm just talking to people that I find interesting and And I'm able to talk to them about whatever I want to talk to them about and discuss things like you and I are talking about right now.

00:39:58.000 I think what we've been talking about Is an important discussion.

00:40:04.000 And I welcome the opportunity to have that discussion.

00:40:08.000 And I don't have time to do that when I'm talking about somebody who's sitting there saying, you know, I think my kid is on the precipice of overdosing or is really in trouble, and I've got to focus on that.

00:40:21.000 I don't have time to pontificate about such things as the opioid epidemic or the philosophy of pills versus therapy and things of that nature.

00:40:32.000 Because I have to give all my attention to the story in front of me.

00:40:35.000 In a podcast environment like we're doing now, I can talk about things that I think people need to hear.

00:40:42.000 I think if they don't, they don't have to listen, but if they're interested, it's there.

00:40:48.000 I like it being more freeform and me being able to talk about things.

00:40:52.000 I've been talking about what makes people a champion.

00:40:55.000 Like I talked to Tony Romo right after the Super Bowl about, you know, he came from Eastern Illinois University.

00:41:02.000 So I got, what, nine students or something?

00:41:04.000 There's a little bit of university.

00:41:06.000 And he turns out to be Quarterback of America's team for 14 years, set all kinds of records and then goes to the booth and becomes the number one color analyst in television.

00:41:18.000 I mean, champion, champion, champion.

00:41:21.000 Why?

00:41:22.000 What do you attribute that to?

00:41:24.000 I like asking those questions and hearing people talk.

00:41:27.000 What do you say to young people about that?

00:41:29.000 What made you a champion?

00:41:30.000 Are you going to let your kids play football?

00:41:33.000 With all this CTE and stuff, what do you say?

00:41:36.000 I like having those kind of conversations.

00:41:38.000 I did the same thing with Shaq and Charles Barkley and different people.

00:41:41.000 What did he say about what makes you a champion?

00:41:44.000 You know, for him, he said that he has this...

00:41:54.000 He says he wasn't the kind of swagger sort of person that came in cocky like he was going to own the field and own the game.

00:42:03.000 But inside, he said he had this absolute drive that if he didn't win...

00:42:13.000 He couldn't live with it.

00:42:16.000 It's like if somebody thought, like he played a game, somebody beat them, beat him, that just the idea that that person went home thinking that they were better than him, that they could beat him, that he just couldn't eat,

00:42:33.000 sleep, think until he got back and owned it again and got back to it.

00:42:43.000 I mean, he said he would be out at 1 o'clock in the morning in the dome throwing a pass that that route got intercepted.

00:42:51.000 He got jumped on that route.

00:42:53.000 And he'd be trying to figure out why on Thursday in practice he saw what he needed to see.

00:43:00.000 Why didn't he see it on Sunday?

00:43:02.000 And he would analyze and analyze and analyze until he could get there, until he could do it, until he could win it.

00:43:06.000 He just had this drive to win.

00:43:09.000 That super unhealthy obsession, they all share that.

00:43:12.000 Michael Jordan had that.

00:43:14.000 I mean, we've talked about that several times on the podcast.

00:43:16.000 So many people that are extreme winners, they're psychotic in their obsession with winning.

00:43:22.000 That's all they want to do, and if they lose, it's almost insufferable.

00:43:27.000 They almost can't deal with it.

00:43:29.000 Yeah.

00:43:30.000 And I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing, but the difference between winners and losers is winners do things losers do not want to do.

00:43:40.000 They will get up in the middle of the night.

00:43:42.000 They will do this.

00:43:43.000 They will do that.

00:43:45.000 They feel it more. 0.94

00:43:46.000 They just do things losers don't want to do. 0.90

00:43:48.000 They'll pay a price losers just don't want to pay. 0.94

00:43:51.000 Yeah. 0.97

00:43:52.000 And loser says it's not worth it. 0.89

00:43:53.000 And every winner has been a loser.

00:43:56.000 Oh, that's what made him a winner.

00:43:58.000 Yeah.

00:43:59.000 If you go through life in a success-only journey...

00:44:04.000 God, how boring would that be?

00:44:06.000 I mean, you'd think it would be great, but it's like eating ice cream every meal. 0.73

00:44:10.000 About the fourth meal, you're going to be thinking, God, let's kill something and eat it.

00:44:14.000 Well, it's like when you're talking about depression, about that bad feelings will motivate you to change.

00:44:19.000 If you're in a bad feeling, if you're in a bad state in your life, that pain is an amazing motivator.

00:44:26.000 Even though it feels terrible at the time, it can propel you to a new and better life because you don't ever want to experience that again and make you grow and be a better person.

00:44:35.000 Yeah.

00:44:36.000 And you got to decide, what's your currency?

00:44:39.000 I mean, because you say, you know, you've done your show a long time and probably don't need the money.

00:44:46.000 But there are different kinds of currency, right?

00:44:49.000 I mean, you don't always work for one kind of currency.

00:44:54.000 I mean, every year when we wrap our season...

00:44:59.000 I kind of take a month and let everybody go unwrap, you know, just kind of unwind and relax and kick back and do whatever they want to do.

00:45:08.000 And then we start meeting and focusing on, okay, how can we reinvent ourselves for next season?

00:45:15.000 How can we tell our stories better?

00:45:17.000 How can we broaden our horizons, do things different so that we raise our game?

00:45:25.000 Because we're kind of competing with ourselves.

00:45:29.000 We're kind of in a category by ourselves.

00:45:32.000 We're the only one that does what we do.

00:45:34.000 And we've been number one for a long time because I've got a really hard-working team, but nobody else tries to do what we do.

00:45:44.000 We're kind of competing with ourselves, and so we work real hard to figure out how can we have a bigger impact?

00:45:51.000 How can we tell this more effectively?

00:45:54.000 What techniques can we come up with that make this even more powerful, more impactful than what it is?

00:46:01.000 And that's what really gets me moving.

00:46:05.000 Well, it's very telling.

00:46:06.000 That's why I would imagine you move towards doing a podcast where it's less restrictive and more open-ended and you can kind of do whatever you want.

00:46:13.000 But that's pretty cool that out of all these years of doing that and giving out advice, you still find this passion to make it better and to do it from a different angle.

00:46:25.000 Yeah, and, you know, I'm as excited about, we're just about to wrap, you know, our 17 seasons.

00:46:31.000 17 seasons.

00:46:32.000 And that's a lot. 1.00

00:46:35.000 Damn! 0.99

00:46:35.000 How many episodes have you done? 0.99

00:46:36.000 Coming up on 3,000.

00:46:40.000 And I did Oprah for five years before.

00:46:43.000 God!

00:46:44.000 And so that's 22 years, and then...

00:46:50.000 And then I just renewed for five years.

00:46:52.000 So I renewed out to 2023 or whatever.

00:46:55.000 Did you hesitate before you signed that?

00:46:56.000 Like, what am I doing?

00:46:57.000 Maybe I should go fishing.

00:46:58.000 Yeah, Robin and I thought about it.

00:47:00.000 But what am I going to do?

00:47:01.000 I mean, I don't want to...

00:47:03.000 Well, you enjoy it, obviously.

00:47:04.000 I do.

00:47:05.000 Yeah.

00:47:06.000 I enjoy it.

00:47:06.000 You can tell.

00:47:07.000 And I've always told my team the thing that we don't want, I don't want to get bored.

00:47:14.000 Right.

00:47:14.000 And if it gets formulaic for me, it'll be formulaic for the viewer.

00:47:19.000 And I don't want that to happen.

00:47:20.000 And we do a lot of news stories and stuff.

00:47:23.000 And that keeps it fresh because you don't know what's going to break in the news tomorrow.

00:47:28.000 And so we do most of the really big news stories.

00:47:33.000 And we don't break the news stories.

00:47:35.000 We go behind the headline and talk about, here's what really happened.

00:47:39.000 As Paul Harvey said, here's the rest of the story.

00:47:42.000 Here's what you read in the headline.

00:47:44.000 Now here's the rest of the story.

00:47:46.000 And I really like doing that.

00:47:48.000 I really like getting into that.

00:47:51.000 Well, when you're doing this on your podcast, one of the beautiful things about that is that you can explore these ideas without commercial breaks.

00:48:01.000 You don't have to have anybody telling you what to do.

00:48:04.000 Whatever is interesting to you.

00:48:06.000 Is that how you pick the subjects and the people that you're talking to?

00:48:09.000 Yeah, like this week I had on Pam Myers who wrote Lie Spotting. 0.98

00:48:16.000 Is that a book on liars, lie spotting?

00:48:20.000 Yeah, and I spent a lot of my career on deception detection because I spent a lot of time in the litigation arena on interrogation techniques.

00:48:29.000 That's how you met Oprah, right?

00:48:30.000 Yeah.

00:48:31.000 Yeah.

00:48:32.000 That was when she was doing that, the beef industry was suing her?

00:48:35.000 Yeah, the mad cow case in Amarillo.

00:48:37.000 Yeah.

00:48:38.000 She got sued for a couple billion dollars, and I represented her in that case, and that's how we met.

00:48:46.000 And so, I mean, I had Pam on, and we both worked a lot in deception detection and interrogation techniques and stuff, and So just, and it came right at a time when, you know, Jussie Smollett is in the news about,

00:49:02.000 is he telling the truth or is he not telling the truth?

00:49:04.000 And then here we have this conversation about...

00:49:06.000 What did you think immediately when you heard that story?

00:49:08.000 I was very suspicious when I heard that story.

00:49:11.000 Jamie and I, we shut the, once the cameras were off, we're like, are these off? 1.00

00:49:15.000 Fuck that guy, that ain't real. 1.00

00:49:17.000 Nobody, it was just too much like a movie. 1.00

00:49:21.000 Yeah.

00:49:22.000 It was a bad movie.

00:49:24.000 Yeah.

00:49:25.000 I mean, it's nine below zero and two people are lying in wait just in hopes that he might come by at 2 a.m.

00:49:33.000 Yeah.

00:49:33.000 I mean...

00:49:35.000 So strange.

00:49:36.000 Yeah.

00:49:37.000 It was suspicious.

00:49:38.000 And, you know, he's entitled to due process and...

00:49:42.000 He's going to get it.

00:49:43.000 Yeah, he's going to get it.

00:49:44.000 Now he's saying he has some untreated drug problem.

00:49:47.000 So he's trying to carve out some path to explain his bizarre behavior.

00:49:53.000 But there are very specific lie behaviors that people can't really control.

00:50:03.000 Like what kind of stuff?

00:50:04.000 Well, for example...

00:50:08.000 When people are really desperately trying to convince you they're telling the truth, they'll do a lot of times what are called convincing statements.

00:50:21.000 Rather than just telling you what they did or didn't do, they'll do convincing statements like, You know me.

00:50:29.000 Like somebody saying, somebody stole the petty cash in the office.

00:50:33.000 You know me.

00:50:34.000 I give more money.

00:50:35.000 I donate more money than was stolen.

00:50:38.000 I mean, you guys know me.

00:50:40.000 I was Employee of the Week last year.

00:50:45.000 You know, they're just convincing you that there's this nice guy.

00:50:48.000 And then they'll say...

00:50:49.000 That's not what someone does if they're wrongly accused?

00:50:51.000 No.

00:50:52.000 What does someone do if they're wrongly accused?

00:50:53.000 If they're wrongly accused, they'll look you straight up in the eye and tell you, I didn't do it.

00:51:00.000 And if you ask them, what do you think should happen to somebody that did?

00:51:05.000 An innocent person will say...

00:51:07.000 I think they should be found.

00:51:09.000 I think they should be held fully accountable to the extent of the law.

00:51:12.000 Somebody that's guilty will say, well, you know, I don't know.

00:51:15.000 I mean, people make mistakes.

00:51:17.000 I mean, you know, you've got to give a guy a second chance.

00:51:20.000 Do you worry that in coaching, that you're essentially coaching liars by telling people this kind of stuff?

00:51:27.000 And someone who does steal the money...

00:51:29.000 You know, would be able to kind of like, hey...

00:51:32.000 It's not for amateurs.

00:51:34.000 And when you...

00:51:37.000 There are some things that you can tell people to watch for, but one of the things you do if there's somebody that you suspect is you increase their cognitive load during the interrogation, and there's no way you can prepare for that.

00:51:53.000 Oh, how do you do that?

00:51:56.000 Well...

00:51:58.000 You plant a mind virus, for example.

00:52:00.000 Ooh, a mind virus.

00:52:01.000 I like it.

00:52:02.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:52:03.000 This is some Barry Mason type shit. 1.00

00:52:05.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:52:06.000 Like, what do you do?

00:52:09.000 Like, if...

00:52:11.000 Let's pretend some money's missing.

00:52:13.000 Yeah.

00:52:13.000 If I said to you, is there any reason somebody would have told me that they saw you near that cash box about the time it went missing?

00:52:24.000 Dum-dum-dum...

00:52:27.000 Okay, now, people talk at 125 words a minute.

00:52:31.000 They think at 1,200 to 1,400 words a minute.

00:52:35.000 Now, if it takes you five seconds to tell me no, you took the money.

00:52:44.000 I'm getting nervous right now.

00:52:46.000 Because if you didn't take it, You know you didn't take it.

00:52:50.000 You don't need to run scenarios through your head to think, who could have seen me?

00:52:54.000 What could it have been?

00:52:56.000 I didn't see anybody.

00:52:59.000 Nobody could have seen me.

00:53:01.000 But if you didn't do it, it doesn't take you one millisecond to say, absolutely not.

00:53:08.000 Have you ever been wrong before, where you see someone on television and you go, I think that guy's guilty and they're innocent, or vice versa?

00:53:15.000 Oh, sure.

00:53:16.000 Because if you really want to know for sure if somebody is guilty or innocent, you need to invest a lot of time.

00:53:24.000 You need to get a baseline on what they normally look like, talk like, feel like.

00:53:30.000 And then knowing that baseline, you then need to compare how they're behaving on TV. So just walking by the screen and I think?

00:53:56.000 Before you decide you're going to be a human lie detector is do your homework and you ought to try to figure it out objectively before you figure it out behaviorally.

00:54:05.000 I mean, you ought to do your investigation, find out if somebody took the money and, you know, find out where they were and, you know, look for fingerprints and do this and do that.

00:54:16.000 I mean, you ought to really objectively figure it out before you rely on these things.

00:54:22.000 And so unless you get a baseline and get one-on-one with them and spend a lot of time, then you can't be really certain that you know whether they're telling the truth or whether they're not.

00:54:38.000 It would be fun if it was that easy.

00:54:41.000 Some people are pretty obvious.

00:54:43.000 Yeah, I heard a cop once say that when people are guilty, they tend to plead and cry, and then when they're not guilty, they tend to get angry when they're accused.

00:54:54.000 People that are wrongly accused are generally irate from the beginning till the end.

00:54:59.000 I mean, every case is different, but if you're wrongly accused, that person is going to be pissed off from the minute you accuse them till the end.

00:55:12.000 They're self-righteous. 0.98

00:55:13.000 Like, I didn't do this, and you're saying I did, and screw you. 0.97

00:55:18.000 And they don't take a step back. 0.97

00:55:21.000 And when you see people, they do these convincing statements, and they're pleading for you to believe them.

00:55:30.000 And any time somebody says, now, in all honesty...

00:55:38.000 Usually, the next thing out of their mouth's a lie.

00:55:43.000 Like, they say to you, now, Joe, honestly, as opposed to everything else you've been telling me, why are we bracketing this one out as honest?

00:55:53.000 Or if they invoke the deity, I swear to God, God as my witness.

00:56:03.000 And, you know, I don't know whether – I have not done what I said you need to do with Jussie Smollett, but I do know when he went to the set at Fox, he said, you all know me.

00:56:22.000 I swear to God, I didn't do this.

00:56:27.000 And there were like three or four of those kind of statements in like two or three sentences there.

00:56:32.000 Well, my favorite one was he's on stage, he called himself the gay Tupac.

00:56:36.000 That's enough for me. 0.96

00:56:38.000 That's a little narcissistic.

00:56:43.000 It's a strange thing, though.

00:56:44.000 Like, there was another one today.

00:56:46.000 A guy lit his house on fire, I think, in Chicago. 0.99

00:56:50.000 And said he's a gay fella. 0.98

00:56:53.000 Said it was a hate crime. 0.99

00:56:55.000 And they caught him.

00:56:57.000 There's a lot of that going on, you know?

00:56:59.000 A lot of fake crime.

00:57:01.000 Very strange.

00:57:02.000 And then sometimes people accuse people of something and someone will say, why would someone make something up?

00:57:09.000 Why would someone turn themselves into a victim?

00:57:11.000 There's a lot of clout in being a victim, especially today.

00:57:15.000 You get a lot of attention, a lot of love.

00:57:18.000 I think there's a lot of false accusations and false attacks.

00:57:22.000 There's a lot of real ones.

00:57:24.000 But man, when the false ones come, it just does a giant disservice to everybody.

00:57:28.000 Well, there's a fair amount of research as to why people do these hoaxes, and particularly hate crime hoaxes.

00:57:36.000 And one of the primary motivations, of course, it's sympathy and attention and all that.

00:57:41.000 But one of the interesting reasons that I've read in the research is that They really feel like it's emblematic of how the system treats them overall.

00:57:52.000 This is just a dramatic example of it.

00:57:56.000 They feel like, I'm treated this way anyhow.

00:58:00.000 I'm discriminated against.

00:58:02.000 I suffer bias.

00:58:04.000 I'm put down.

00:58:05.000 This is just a focused example of that.

00:58:09.000 So I'm really not lying.

00:58:10.000 I'm just role-playing how I'm overall treated.

00:58:14.000 So they justify it in their mind.

00:58:17.000 They're just going to bring all this treatment into one example to bring it into focus.

00:58:23.000 And so while it's a phony deal, it really is truthful representation of what their life is really like.

00:58:31.000 They justify it in that way.

00:58:33.000 Oh, how weird. 0.99

00:58:34.000 Yeah, that's some deep psychological shit right there. 0.99

00:58:38.000 Yeah, that's stretching. 0.99

00:58:41.000 But that's a weird one.

00:58:43.000 When you write it out like that, put it in your mind that way.

00:58:46.000 Yeah.

00:58:47.000 Wow.

00:58:49.000 It's strange, too, because it gives people this giant public show to watch now.

00:58:55.000 Yeah.

00:58:56.000 And I hate that.

00:58:57.000 What a talented young man.

00:59:00.000 Is he?

00:59:01.000 The times that I've seen, I don't watch that show a lot, but the times I've seen him on there singing, and assuming it is his voice and he's singing, extremely talented young man. 0.99

00:59:14.000 I find a lot of talented people are fucking crazy. 0.93

00:59:17.000 Well, you know, somebody said that the really talented singers and actors were the weird kids from high school that were in drama and all of that. 1.00

00:59:27.000 Oh, for sure.

00:59:28.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:59:31.000 Yeah, various levels of crazy, obviously not all deceptive, but some of the most brilliant actors are just completely out of their mind, and that's one of the reasons why they're so good at acting.

00:59:41.000 Look, my friend Wayne Fetterman had a bit that he did about it on stage, and he's like, guess what? 0.81

00:59:47.000 It's not fucking normal to be able to just cry. 0.76

00:59:51.000 He goes, you could just cry and pretend something's wrong and cry? 0.99

00:59:54.000 He's like, that's crazy. 0.99

00:59:55.000 These are crazy people.

00:59:57.000 Yeah, and you really can't go to a certain place if you don't have a little of that in you.

01:00:04.000 My dad used to always say, when he was working with patients, he would say, there's something about that old boy I can't stand about me.

01:00:12.000 Because you say, you can't see it in them if you don't have a little of it in you.

01:00:16.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:17.000 I think there's some truth in that.

01:00:18.000 Oh, there's 100% truth in that.

01:00:20.000 That is the thing that drives me the craziest about weak people.

01:00:23.000 I'm so terrified of seeing weakness and just... 1.00

01:00:28.000 Just being pathetic. 0.99

01:00:30.000 I'm so terrified of seeing that in myself. 1.00

01:00:31.000 I see it in other people and it just...

01:00:33.000 It smells.

01:00:34.000 I smell it like a drug-sniffing dog.

01:00:36.000 Like, oh, there it is.

01:00:37.000 Yeah, you smell desperation.

01:00:39.000 Yes.

01:00:40.000 Weakness.

01:00:40.000 So what makes you do this?

01:00:41.000 Why are you doing a podcast?

01:00:43.000 I have always been a blabbermouth. 0.99

01:00:45.000 I can never shut the fuck up. 0.98

01:00:46.000 I love talking. 0.93

01:00:47.000 And I've always been fascinated by human beings and their lives and just talking to people and finding out...

01:00:53.000 Like, the guy before was...

01:00:55.000 This guy, Yohan Grillo, who's a narcotics journalist.

01:01:00.000 He's a narco-journalist in Mexico.

01:01:03.000 I mean, I couldn't wait to talk to that guy.

01:01:05.000 Oh, yeah.

01:01:06.000 I mean, just what a life.

01:01:07.000 I mean, he's been living in Mexico for 18 years.

01:01:09.000 He's from England.

01:01:10.000 He's still alive.

01:01:12.000 I mean, that's something right there.

01:01:14.000 Yeah, and he's telling me about friends that have been killed, and he's been in some sticky situations a few times.

01:01:20.000 I'm just fascinated by...

01:01:23.000 By people and what they like to do.

01:01:26.000 You know, I'm fascinated by athletes.

01:01:28.000 I'm fascinated by physicists.

01:01:30.000 I've just always been very, very curious.

01:01:33.000 And I've always recognized that everyone thinks about things differently and that I could take a little bit of something from everybody.

01:01:39.000 Whether it's from a book or it's from having a conversation with someone, I can gain a little bit of experience, a little bit of knowledge, a little bit of insight.

01:01:49.000 Yeah, you're naturally very curious.

01:01:52.000 Because I listen to your interviews and you're naturally very curious.

01:01:55.000 You don't struggle for the next question because you really want to know something.

01:02:00.000 That makes it much easier.

01:02:02.000 I was very lucky that I found this. 1.00

01:02:03.000 I just stumbled into doing this kind of shit. 0.98

01:02:06.000 It wasn't this way in the beginning. 1.00

01:02:07.000 In the beginning, it was just horse shitting with friends.

01:02:10.000 And slowly but surely, as the podcast became popular, I was like, I wonder if that guy would talk to me.

01:02:15.000 And then I would get people on, and then it became more of these long-form, interesting conversations.

01:02:22.000 Yeah.

01:02:24.000 Yeah.

01:02:24.000 And if you're curious about human functioning at all, human nature at all, there's an endless menu of things you can talk about.

01:02:32.000 I don't care who it is.

01:02:33.000 You could pull somebody out of a car on the street.

01:02:36.000 And if you're curious, you can talk to them because everybody has a different take in life.

01:02:40.000 Everybody has a different walk.

01:02:41.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:42.000 And what you're talking about when you're interviewing all these athletes, you know, I think people tend to write off athletic pursuits as being entirely physical, and they're not.

01:02:53.000 I mean, I think this is an easy way for people to look at it that don't engage, or they've never really thought about playing anything at a very high level, that it requires some intense thinking.

01:03:05.000 It might not require...

01:03:07.000 Mathematics or a large vocabulary, but understanding what's required, understanding when and how to execute, understanding how to keep your shit together under pressure, those are all intensely intellectual aspects of any really high-end athletic pursuit. 0.79

01:03:23.000 And there's a different breed of cat That wants the ball at the buzzer.

01:03:28.000 And it's not just a showboat.

01:03:30.000 There's a different breed of cat that wants that ball at that point.

01:03:34.000 And it's not always who you think, but it takes a special kind of person that wants that pressure.

01:03:42.000 Yeah, that knows they can handle it better than anybody else.

01:03:46.000 You know, and it's a lot of times it's people that are entirely confident that they've done the work.

01:03:50.000 You know, there's a haunting thing that happens with athletes where you're not sure if you did enough.

01:03:56.000 And in fighters, it's a very dangerous inclination because it leads you to overtrain.

01:04:02.000 And you have to be very careful about that.

01:04:04.000 Because with a fighter, you only can learn so much during your training camp.

01:04:08.000 Like say, once you get into training camp, you got eight weeks, depending on who you are.

01:04:12.000 Some guys like to do a little longer.

01:04:14.000 But the average is maybe eight.

01:04:16.000 Twelve weeks is a long camp.

01:04:18.000 You already have to know how to fight by the time you get to camp.

01:04:21.000 So what you're really doing is just kind of working on specific movements where you're dealing with one kind of fighter and then getting your body in shape.

01:04:30.000 Getting your body conditioned, getting your mind ready, preparing everything, cutting your body weight down so you can weigh in and have a good amount of...

01:04:41.000 You've got to have enough vitality.

01:04:43.000 You can't drain yourself.

01:04:44.000 So there's this complicated dance that goes on.

01:04:46.000 And that haunting thing of did I do enough can cause fighters to screw themselves over by overtraining.

01:04:54.000 So you have to have enough confidence to know that you've done enough as well as enough You have to know you've done enough, but know you haven't done too much.

01:05:05.000 This is a really strange dance.

01:05:07.000 This weekend is a giant UFC. Big UFC. Two big title fights between four of the very best fighters in the world.

01:05:16.000 That is one of the most interesting aspects of the fight game to me.

01:05:20.000 One, watching these guys stare each other down at the weigh-in, where they get a look at each other and they know 24 hours from now they're going to war.

01:05:27.000 And just see, is there just a smell of doubt?

01:05:31.000 Is there anything?

01:05:32.000 Is there anything in there?

01:05:34.000 And just knowing that this is probably one of the most difficult things in all of athletics, and that these guys are going to...

01:05:42.000 They're going to apply their trade in one of the most complicated things.

01:05:47.000 It's a battle of physical, mental, of mindset, of will, of conditioning and discipline. 0.98

01:05:55.000 And then it's also, there's a lot of random shit that happens. 0.55

01:05:59.000 Do you think a fight can change? 0.97

01:06:02.000 At a weigh-in when people are looking at each other?

01:06:05.000 Yes.

01:06:05.000 Yeah, it can change.

01:06:07.000 It can shift right then?

01:06:08.000 It can't change forever.

01:06:10.000 You could look at John Jones sideways, upside down. 0.98

01:06:13.000 It ain't going to affect shit. 0.98

01:06:16.000 There's some guys that are just locked down and bulletproof. 0.96

01:06:18.000 John Jones is bulletproof.

01:06:20.000 There's certain guys that are just bulletproof.

01:06:21.000 They just look at you and they know what to do.

01:06:24.000 There's a reason why he's undefeated.

01:06:25.000 He knows how to do it. 0.99

01:06:27.000 But then there's other guys that maybe they're like fucking... 0.99

01:06:30.000 Maybe it's 80-20. 0.99

01:06:33.000 And then the stare down, you look at the guy and you look at him like, God damn it, I'm fighting Yoel Romero. 0.99

01:06:38.000 How the fuck did this happen? 0.98

01:06:40.000 And then you see him drop down to 75, maybe 73% confidence, 72, 70. Shit! 1.00

01:06:48.000 They look at his traps. 1.00

01:06:49.000 He's got a neck that starts at the top of his head. 1.00

01:06:51.000 And you're like, ah, fuck! 1.00

01:06:53.000 There's certain guys, they're intimidating at weigh-ins too. 1.00

01:06:57.000 It can change a little bit, but not for everybody.

01:07:00.000 There's certain guys that just, it doesn't matter, you can't get in there.

01:07:04.000 There's certain champions, like real champions, like Mighty Mouse Johnson, there's a bunch of guys like that that are Just champions.

01:07:11.000 It doesn't matter.

01:07:13.000 They know what they're doing.

01:07:14.000 They've done the work.

01:07:15.000 They're the best in the business.

01:07:16.000 You can mean mug them and get aggressive.

01:07:18.000 They might smile at you.

01:07:20.000 This is cute.

01:07:21.000 You're trying to make me nervous.

01:07:22.000 Hilarious.

01:07:22.000 See you tomorrow.

01:07:25.000 So is that because they know who they are and it doesn't matter who this is?

01:07:33.000 Or is it that they just don't believe in this guy?

01:07:37.000 It's they know who they are, I think.

01:07:39.000 And they have reached a level of confidence.

01:07:42.000 When you get to a certain level of success, like, you know, John Jones has one loss in his record and it's by disqualification in a fight that he was destroying the guy.

01:07:50.000 And he was hitting the guy with, it's a really dumb rule, but when you throw elbows, you're not allowed to throw a 12 to 6 elbow, meaning coming straight down.

01:07:58.000 The only reason that exists is because when mixed martial arts was first being, It was first being sanctioned by athletic commissions.

01:08:06.000 The people that were in the athletic commission had some nervous fears.

01:08:11.000 They had seen those late night TV shows where karate guys are breaking bricks with their elbow driving straight down.

01:08:17.000 They thought they could kill somebody if they did that.

01:08:19.000 So let's not have...

01:08:20.000 We'll eliminate that strike. 0.98

01:08:21.000 It's a dumb move. 0.53

01:08:23.000 And Jon Jones hit this guy with a couple, 12 to 6 elbows, and he was disqualified. 0.97

01:08:28.000 In a fight, he was just...

01:08:29.000 Just destroying the guy.

01:08:30.000 So for a guy like that, who has this staggering resume of achievement, he's widely considered to be the greatest light heavyweight champion of all time.

01:08:39.000 If not, he's definitely in the running of the greatest fighter ever of all time.

01:08:43.000 For a guy like that, he's confident to the point of, you know, he's...

01:08:50.000 He's not trying to just beat this guy, although he's going to beat this guy.

01:08:54.000 He's trying to go down in history as one of the greatest of all time, or the greatest of all time.

01:08:58.000 So for a guy like that, it doesn't matter what you do.

01:09:01.000 He's a Michael Jordan type character.

01:09:04.000 There's a few of those guys out there.

01:09:05.000 There's these LeBron Jameses, these Larry Birds.

01:09:09.000 They exist in all sports.

01:09:11.000 They have this mindset, a champion mindset.

01:09:15.000 Does he fight angry or does he fight business-like?

01:09:18.000 Business-like.

01:09:19.000 He's very business-like.

01:09:20.000 Yeah, he's very business-like.

01:09:22.000 He just knows what he's doing.

01:09:23.000 The best guys fight business-like.

01:09:25.000 There's some guys that fight with emotion and they're still really good, but like Fedor Emelianenko is this famous Russian guy.

01:09:30.000 He would have a look on his face like he was cashing a check and he was smashing a guy's orbit in.

01:09:36.000 He was just, you know, he was the highest level of that, like that robotic business-like approach to fighting.

01:09:44.000 And then after he knocked you unconscious, he'd help you get back up.

01:09:46.000 Yeah.

01:09:47.000 It was over.

01:09:48.000 Once he shut it off, it was over.

01:09:49.000 There was no sign.

01:09:50.000 He thought emotions were weak.

01:09:51.000 Like showing emotions in a fight, showing anger.

01:09:54.000 All that was weak.

01:09:55.000 Yeah.

01:09:58.000 I think there's a huge psychological component to it.

01:10:00.000 I mean, I agree completely.

01:10:02.000 Giant.

01:10:03.000 Gigantic.

01:10:04.000 I think if you go in with doubt, man, I just think that's terrible.

01:10:11.000 It's terrible.

01:10:12.000 Yeah.

01:10:13.000 Because now you're fighting yourself and them, too.

01:10:17.000 You remember the Mike Tyson fights when he was in his prime?

01:10:19.000 Oh, yeah.

01:10:19.000 Remember the look in those guys' faces?

01:10:21.000 Oh, yeah.

01:10:21.000 They're staring across the ring, and I'm like, oh, Jesus, what did I sign up for?

01:10:24.000 Yeah, they're thinking, I don't know what the money was here, but it wasn't worth it.

01:10:28.000 It seemed like a good idea at the time.

01:10:30.000 It was a life-changing, life-defining moment when you were staring across the ring at Iron Mike, and it was like 1989, and he was on top of the world.

01:10:40.000 Yeah, and you knew he was going to come over there and hit you like you had never been hit before.

01:10:47.000 Yeah, guns blazing.

01:10:49.000 Yeah, and he did.

01:10:50.000 Yeah, and he did.

01:10:52.000 Meanwhile, you meet him now, he's like the nicest guy on the planet Earth.

01:10:55.000 Yeah.

01:10:56.000 Couldn't be a sweeter guy.

01:10:57.000 Yeah, I talked to him today.

01:10:58.000 He's got a daughter that's apparently a pretty good tennis player.

01:11:00.000 Really?

01:11:01.000 And he's really behind her now and focused on that.

01:11:03.000 That was him back then.

01:11:04.000 That was when he came out of jail and he was fighting Peter McNeely.

01:11:07.000 He was just letting him know, it's coming, baby.

01:11:10.000 It's a terrifying man!

01:11:12.000 He was never as formidable after jail as he was before he went in.

01:11:17.000 Yeah.

01:11:18.000 Well, there's a ton of factors.

01:11:20.000 His training was never the same.

01:11:23.000 He lost that connection with Customato.

01:11:27.000 He had Customato training him when he was at his very best.

01:11:30.000 And then Kevin Rooney, who worked with Customato and Mike, trained him after that.

01:11:34.000 And then they eventually parted ways.

01:11:37.000 And that was before the Buster Douglas fight.

01:11:39.000 Remember, he had guys in his corner that didn't even have an end swell.

01:11:42.000 I mean, his eye was swelling up and they didn't even have ice to put on it.

01:11:45.000 Yeah, there was a lot of factors.

01:11:48.000 But also, you know, when I talked to Mike on the podcast, one of the things was, and this was just him sort of coming to grips with the fact that He never really had a childhood.

01:12:02.000 His childhood was from the time he was 12 years old.

01:12:04.000 Custom model took him in, was hypnotizing him and teaching him how to fight.

01:12:08.000 Teaching him how to fight and hypnotizing him to be a machine.

01:12:11.000 He was literally saying to him, you don't exist.

01:12:14.000 The task exists.

01:12:16.000 The job at hand exists.

01:12:17.000 And you're going to go out there and you're going to get the job done.

01:12:21.000 And he was telling this to a 13-year-old that never experienced love.

01:12:24.000 He just was abandoned and homeless and this is the only way he ever got any sort of positive reinforcement in his life is by destroying people.

01:12:34.000 Yeah.

01:12:35.000 Yeah, and that's sad.

01:12:37.000 But, you know, now he seems to really be connected to his daughter.

01:12:40.000 I mean, you see and hear a softness in his voice.

01:12:44.000 He really is connected to her.

01:12:45.000 Yeah.

01:12:46.000 He learned.

01:12:46.000 You know, I mean, it's easy to try to look at someone like who they were, you know, 20 years ago.

01:12:53.000 It's easy to do that.

01:12:54.000 It's easy to just say, oh, he's that guy.

01:12:56.000 Yeah.

01:12:56.000 But people evolve and they grow, and he's a great example of that.

01:12:59.000 He's a very different person.

01:13:01.000 He doesn't even work out because he's worried about his ego.

01:13:05.000 He doesn't hit the bag or do anything like that.

01:13:08.000 He's occasionally get on a treadmill and work out a little bit on a treadmill just to get a little exercise in.

01:13:12.000 But he's worried about feeding his ego.

01:13:15.000 He's worried about looking at himself in the mirror and bringing that old monster back again.

01:13:19.000 Really?

01:13:20.000 Yeah, that's what he said.

01:13:23.000 Yeah, I think he'd be afraid of not being able to get back to the level he was.

01:13:27.000 I don't think he's afraid of that.

01:13:28.000 I don't think he wants to be that guy.

01:13:30.000 He says he doesn't like that guy, which is crazy because that guy is who made him rich and famous and everybody loves him because he was that guy.

01:13:40.000 But who he is now is a completely different person, just a sweetheart, a real sweetheart.

01:13:46.000 Yeah, he seems like it.

01:13:47.000 I mean, you'd never think to talk to him.

01:13:49.000 If you didn't know his history, you'd never guess that was that guy.

01:13:52.000 Yeah, no, you never would.

01:13:54.000 Yeah, I think the psychological aspect of fighting is one of the more intriguing parts of it to me.

01:14:01.000 For me, it's like probably one of the reasons why I got interested in psyche in the first place and the way people think about things and weakness, like real weakness.

01:14:12.000 Weakness can get exposed in a variety of different ways, but in competition is when you really see it.

01:14:19.000 Yeah.

01:14:20.000 I have this theory.

01:14:24.000 We see it in sports, and I saw it when I talked to Emmett.

01:14:28.000 He's been a friend of mine for a long time.

01:14:30.000 I was talking to him about his psychology as he goes into a football game, and he says he plays a movie in his mind of the entire game before he plays it.

01:14:41.000 Because in a football game, you're going to have 11 or 12 possessions during the game.

01:14:46.000 Throughout the football game, you're going to get that ball 11 or 12 times.

01:14:50.000 I'm going to carry that ball three or four times per possession.

01:14:54.000 He knows which plays he's going to run.

01:14:56.000 He would run them through his head.

01:14:57.000 He would see it.

01:14:58.000 He would know who was going to be there to tackle him.

01:15:00.000 He would run everything through his head.

01:15:04.000 He's one of those guys that wants the ball when the clock's running out.

01:15:08.000 I have this theory that situations do not make heroes.

01:15:15.000 Situations expose heroes.

01:15:18.000 And I saw that in Katrina, the hurricane that so devastated that one neighborhood.

01:15:27.000 What ward was it?

01:15:28.000 Is it the Ninth Ward?

01:15:29.000 I forget which ward it was that got so wiped out.

01:15:33.000 When Katrina hit New Orleans, and there was a guy down there that had been really quiet.

01:15:39.000 Nobody had ever heard anything out of him.

01:15:42.000 He was an older guy, lived in a house, stayed to himself.

01:15:45.000 And that night, when the water was at rooftop level, I mean, he swam rooftop to rooftop and saved six, seven, eight people, got him out of there, and he didn't make it out.

01:15:59.000 But he got seven or eight people out of there.

01:16:01.000 And you go back and you check his history, and he was a military hero.

01:16:07.000 He just sat quietly in his home.

01:16:09.000 And when the situation came about, it revealed who he was.

01:16:15.000 And I think that's what happens.

01:16:17.000 I think if you've got a hero, they just sit there, sit there, sit there.

01:16:37.000 I don't think it makes them a hero.

01:16:40.000 Or they may show you that they've got the focus to hang, or they may show you that they're a hero, but life circumstances are going to come along and they're going to show you who somebody is.

01:16:50.000 Yeah, I completely agree.

01:16:52.000 And I think what's also interesting is when someone does get revealed to be a coward, they can become a hero, but it's very hard.

01:17:02.000 It's very hard to get past the memory of you being a coward.

01:17:07.000 Well, and I'll tell you why I think that's true, if you want to know. 0.69

01:17:10.000 Please.

01:17:11.000 I mean, maybe you don't.

01:17:13.000 Going off on a tangent.

01:17:15.000 Come on.

01:17:16.000 No, I think we learn about ourselves, and everybody talks about self-esteem and self-worth, but nobody ever talks about what it really is or how we get it.

01:17:29.000 And I think about it in terms of self-attribution, because You know how you form opinions of other people.

01:17:39.000 Like, if you look at this guy, and maybe you work with this guy, and so you watch him across a couple of years, and maybe this guy shows up to work every day, and he's there 15 minutes early, and he unlocks the place, gets everything ready, puts the coffee on, has his desk ready,

01:17:54.000 he's all buttoned up, and man, when the bell rings, he's ready to go.

01:17:58.000 And you just learn that this guy's buttoned up, ready to go, dependable, never misses, he's always there.

01:18:05.000 So you attribute certain traits and characteristics to him based on your observations of him and your experience of him.

01:18:12.000 Based on that, you assign certain traits and characteristics to him.

01:18:16.000 But I say that's exactly the same way we form our own self-image and our own level of self-worth.

01:18:24.000 We watch ourselves go through life, and we watch how we handle certain circumstances and situations.

01:18:33.000 And that's why I say overindulgence is one of the most insidious forms of child abuse known to parenting.

01:18:40.000 It's not the worst, it's just insidious.

01:18:43.000 Because if you overindulge your children and do everything for them, you never let them observe themselves master their environment.

01:18:52.000 You never let them step back and say, wow, I did that!

01:18:57.000 I built this!

01:18:58.000 I overcame that!

01:18:59.000 I handled this!

01:19:01.000 I did that!

01:19:02.000 And so that's the same way we make our own self-image and level of self-worth.

01:19:08.000 We watch ourselves Welcome to my show!

01:19:30.000 Get onto the debate team and actually argue something successfully, whether it's academic or athletic or musical.

01:19:38.000 We watch ourselves do it, and so we go back and say, hey, I did that.

01:19:43.000 I attribute to myself the ability.

01:19:45.000 I can hang.

01:19:46.000 I can do this. 0.94

01:19:47.000 I can rise to the occasion.

01:19:49.000 Or...

01:19:50.000 We watch ourselves fold like a pup tent in a windstorm and say, you know, I can't hang.

01:19:56.000 I don't have it.

01:19:57.000 And we make those attributions to ourselves and so we shrink from the challenge for the rest of our lives until, like you said, it's hard to overcome that and something pushes you up until you finally observe yourself overcome something.

01:20:11.000 And I think that's how we form our level of self-esteem and our identity about who we are.

01:20:19.000 And I don't think most people think about that.

01:20:21.000 They look back and say, okay, how did I get to be Joe Rogan as I sit in that chair?

01:20:26.000 You have a self-image.

01:20:27.000 You have a level of confidence, an ego strength, a level of self-worth.

01:20:34.000 That's attributable to things you've watched yourself do or not do, achieve, not achieve, overcome, or whatever throughout your life.

01:20:43.000 And I think to know yourself, you have to know what those things are.

01:20:48.000 I think you're 100% right.

01:20:49.000 And I think for children, participating in things that are going to test you is so critical.

01:20:54.000 Giving them this opportunity to realize that there's a line between success and failure and that you could push through that line.

01:21:01.000 You could become successful at something.

01:21:04.000 And watching kids.

01:21:06.000 That's why I think sports are so important for children.

01:21:09.000 I think, and that's one of the more insidious things about having these participation trophies for kids, where nobody wins the game.

01:21:16.000 Yay! 0.99

01:21:17.000 Everybody plays, but nobody wins.

01:21:18.000 We don't keep score. 0.99

01:21:19.000 Why the fuck are you playing? 0.99

01:21:21.000 Yeah, I mean, that just goes down as an environmental non-event. 0.99

01:21:25.000 I mean, that contributes nothing to your definition.

01:21:28.000 It's just something to do.

01:21:30.000 It's also psychologically, it's coddling.

01:21:33.000 It's very damaging for your potential education that you would get from that situation.

01:21:39.000 The bad feeling that you get when someone scores on you is motivation for you to be better at defense.

01:21:45.000 Yeah.

01:21:46.000 And I think we cheat kids when we do that.

01:21:49.000 And of course, you've got to play everybody.

01:21:51.000 I get that.

01:21:53.000 Not everybody is meant to be an athlete.

01:21:55.000 So, okay, look, go do something else.

01:21:59.000 Be good at what you're good at.

01:22:01.000 And if you really want to do it, well, you've got a long road.

01:22:04.000 It's a greased hill.

01:22:06.000 Start running.

01:22:08.000 Yeah, everything's not for everybody.

01:22:10.000 So find what you're good at and watch yourself achieve in that lane.

01:22:15.000 You know, that's like, I can't carry a tune in a bucket.

01:22:21.000 I can play no instrument.

01:22:23.000 I can't sing.

01:22:25.000 I can play a radio if it's got a big on-off knob.

01:22:28.000 That's it.

01:22:29.000 And so I don't try.

01:22:31.000 I mean, I'm just not good at that.

01:22:32.000 So I go in the lanes that I can do stuff and observe myself in that.

01:22:36.000 But I think you cheat kids if you don't let them observe themselves, face adversity, and overcome it.

01:22:42.000 Absolutely.

01:22:43.000 And it's also an interesting lesson to learn that life isn't fair.

01:22:47.000 I mean, if you're a kid and you're playing basketball with a 15-year-old LeBron James and you're my height, you go, huh.

01:22:56.000 Yeah.

01:22:57.000 This ain't gonna work out at all.

01:22:59.000 Yeah.

01:22:59.000 You're looking at a towel boy here.

01:23:01.000 This is not fucking happening. 0.99

01:23:03.000 Yeah. 0.97

01:23:03.000 And you have to be able to understand that and appreciate that. 0.97

01:23:06.000 And then conversely, if you're very physically frail, you know, maybe wrestling's not for you either.

01:23:12.000 You know, maybe we need to do something about your body before you engage in any sort of a combat sport. 0.99

01:23:19.000 You know, they did an experiment back in, I think it was the 60s.

01:23:22.000 They did something called teaching machines.

01:23:24.000 Have you ever seen that?

01:23:25.000 No.

01:23:25.000 It was a Short period of time, but they took students into class where they put the steps of learning the information so close together that there was never a failure experience.

01:23:37.000 It would say, like, the War of 1812 happened in 1812. Then the next thing would say, the War of 1812 happened in blank.

01:23:48.000 You fill in 1812. I mean, come on.

01:23:50.000 A potted plant could get that. 0.68

01:23:52.000 So they would put it together, and they would teach the information, and they would teach it to criteria where you mastered the information, you had it 100%.

01:24:03.000 And they said, wow, this is great.

01:24:05.000 Everybody learned it.

01:24:06.000 So everybody made 100. Everybody got the information.

01:24:09.000 They truly did learn it.

01:24:11.000 There was no question about it.

01:24:12.000 They learned the information.

01:24:13.000 And so they did great.

01:24:15.000 And then they took them out of that program and put them back in the regular classroom.

01:24:20.000 And the first time they came to questions they didn't know the answer to, the first time they didn't get 100, they came apart like a cheap suit.

01:24:29.000 They panicked.

01:24:30.000 They didn't know how to handle adversity.

01:24:32.000 They didn't know how to handle it when they didn't have the right answers.

01:24:36.000 They didn't learn how to not be perfect.

01:24:40.000 And so they scrapped the whole program because they said, you can't do this because that's not the way life is.

01:24:47.000 And if, I mean, you're not teaching them how the real world works.

01:24:52.000 You might as well teach them to go on red and stop on green and then give them the keys and put them out in life because that's not the way it works.

01:25:00.000 And those kids were absolutely screwed up when they got into a truly competitive environment.

01:25:06.000 It can't be success only. 0.86

01:25:08.000 Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

01:25:09.000 It's not healthy.

01:25:10.000 It's not good for you.

01:25:12.000 You don't learn from it.

01:25:13.000 I mean, the whole idea about school is you're supposed to be setting kids up for the future.

01:25:17.000 You're supposed to be teaching them not just information, but teaching them how to learn and how to improve.

01:25:23.000 Yeah, and that worries me.

01:25:24.000 You know, I read that story not long ago when these students, I think it was at UCLA in law school, complained and got a professor Either disciplined or fired because he required them to take a counter-argument over something controversial like Ferguson.

01:25:47.000 He said, I know that you're all on this point of view.

01:25:53.000 Now I want you to prepare an argument for the other side.

01:25:57.000 And they all said, that's upsetting to us.

01:26:00.000 We just can't do it.

01:26:01.000 And they went to the administration and complained.

01:26:03.000 Wow, that's crazy, because you may have to, as a lawyer, you may have to represent someone who's done something you don't agree with, if that's what you want to do for a living, right?

01:26:13.000 I mean, are you kidding me?

01:26:15.000 They were, like, needed therapy.

01:26:19.000 And I'm like, what the hell has happened here?

01:26:24.000 Oh, my God.

01:26:25.000 That is so crazy.

01:26:26.000 Yeah, that's nuts.

01:26:27.000 That's crazy.

01:26:29.000 You know, yeah.

01:26:32.000 Yeah.

01:26:34.000 Well, there's a movement going on in this country right now, the social justice movement, and it leans in that direction, that people don't want to look at things for how they are.

01:26:46.000 They want to look at things for how they want them to be.

01:26:49.000 Yeah, I just don't understand.

01:26:52.000 You cannot...

01:26:55.000 Let's legislate that everything is going to be equal for everybody because everybody's not equal. 1.00

01:27:04.000 I'm sorry, they're not equal.

01:27:06.000 They may be equal in terms of their value as a human being, but they're not equal in math skills.

01:27:12.000 They're not equal in how fast they run.

01:27:14.000 They're not equal in creativity.

01:27:16.000 Everybody has their own value, but that doesn't mean Their marketable skills in an open society, in an open market, are going to be the same. 0.89

01:27:26.000 No, it's ridiculous.

01:27:27.000 I had a joke in one of my specials, two specials ago, about, there was a story about a woman who was guarding the White House.

01:27:35.000 She was the lone guard at one of the doors of the White House, and some crazy man broke in and knocked her to the ground and just ran through the White House, and he was running around inside the White House for like three minutes before they finally, some off-duty Secret Service agent,

01:27:50.000 tackled this guy. 0.99

01:27:51.000 I'm like, what the fuck is going on? 1.00

01:27:53.000 This guy's running through the White House to tackle this guy. 1.00

01:27:55.000 And the joke was that people think that a woman can do everything a man can do.

01:28:01.000 I go, a woman can do everything a man can do. 1.00

01:28:03.000 Is that true?

01:28:04.000 And some woman in the crowd at the comic store was like, yes! 0.99

01:28:08.000 I go, well, that doesn't make any fucking sense. 0.79

01:28:10.000 Here's why it doesn't make any sense. 0.95

01:28:12.000 Because a man can't do everything a man can do. 1.00

01:28:15.000 I go, look, I've met Shaquille O'Neal, and his dick is where my face is. 0.99

01:28:19.000 And if the White House is experiencing a Shaq attack, I'm the wrong person to save the world, because he's just going to run right over me. 0.99

01:28:27.000 I go, but if my wife and kid were guarding the White House, guess what?

01:28:33.000 I'm getting in.

01:28:34.000 I love my family, but if it's between me and...

01:28:37.000 There's no way they're going to be able to stop me.

01:28:39.000 I love them to death, but I'm a man, and they're women. 1.00

01:28:43.000 And if there's a woman guarding the White House, I don't care who she is. 1.00

01:28:45.000 I'll fuck her up. 1.00

01:28:46.000 It's not going to happen. 1.00

01:28:47.000 This is crazy.

01:28:49.000 But someone had this idea that they would...

01:28:56.000 Yeah.

01:29:08.000 I don't understand.

01:29:10.000 It just seems like you've got to find your own lane.

01:29:13.000 I mean, you don't want to put me in the NBA. Yeah, physical things in particular.

01:29:18.000 And then there's also mental things. 0.91

01:29:20.000 Look, I suck at math.

01:29:22.000 If everyone has a chance to work at CERN, everyone has a chance to work at the Large Hadron Collider, including people that have no idea about physics, we're going to have a real time making these equations work. 0.96

01:29:35.000 That's what I mean about finding your own lane, like you.

01:29:38.000 I can't add two and two and get five every time.

01:29:40.000 I'm just not good at math.

01:29:41.000 But I'm good with words.

01:29:43.000 I can talk, I can read fast, I can comprehend well, but I am not good with math.

01:29:48.000 So I got myself into a lane where I talk for a living.

01:29:52.000 I read, I talk.

01:29:54.000 It's qualitative, not quantitative.

01:29:57.000 I can accept that I'm not suited for that.

01:30:00.000 I mean, I don't feel bad about myself because of that.

01:30:03.000 Once you do something and you're good at it, you can accept not being good at other things.

01:30:07.000 It's much easier.

01:30:07.000 If you find a thing that you're good at, whether it's gymnastics or singing or painting, whatever the fuck it is, if you can find a thing that you're good at, it'll give you a feeling of self-worth and you won't need to be good at everything.

01:30:22.000 You can accept and you can enjoy other people being good at things as well.

01:30:26.000 Yeah.

01:30:26.000 You know, I said earlier, my dad was an alcoholic and I would compare myself to that kid across because I had a damaged personal truth.

01:30:33.000 But I found a currency because at that time in my life, I was a pretty decent athlete for this small school I was going to.

01:30:41.000 So that was my currency.

01:30:43.000 So now it didn't matter what was happening at home because I got strokes for being able to jump high and run fast at school.

01:30:50.000 So that became my currency.

01:30:52.000 So now...

01:30:54.000 When I compared myself to him, okay, maybe my home life wasn't as good as his, but I could run faster and jump higher.

01:31:00.000 So that became my currency.

01:31:02.000 So now, okay, that leveled the playing field for me.

01:31:05.000 And like you said, find what you're good at at a given time and do what you're good at.

01:31:11.000 Yeah, find something you love, find something you're passionate about that you could also excel at.

01:31:15.000 And if you can work it out where it's your vocation and your avocation, you love doing it and you get paid for it, then you're just double blessed.

01:31:22.000 I mean, you got it, right?

01:31:23.000 Because you enjoy doing this and it works out and that's good.

01:31:26.000 Yeah, you catch lucky breaks.

01:31:29.000 But that's, boy, that's lucky.

01:31:32.000 Yeah, it is.

01:31:34.000 And I just think if you're in your life and you don't have something that you're passionate about, I mean, and I don't mean that in a cliche way.

01:31:46.000 If there's not something where you wake up every day and there's nothing in your life that you're excited to do, man, you need to go back to the drawing board.

01:31:57.000 Because if all you're doing is just grinding it out and You get up every day, go to a job you don't like, do tasks you don't care to do, and come home to a home you don't want to come home to and wait to get up and do it again the next day,

01:32:12.000 you're burning daylight.

01:32:15.000 What the hell existence is that?

01:32:18.000 I don't understand that.

01:32:22.000 Find something.

01:32:23.000 I don't care if it's gardening or music or art or athletics or something.

01:32:28.000 Find something you're excited to do.

01:32:30.000 Yeah, expose yourself to different things with that very purpose of finding something that you love.

01:32:35.000 Because there's something out there.

01:32:37.000 There's something out there, I guarantee you.

01:32:39.000 Something, yeah.

01:32:40.000 There's something healthy that's not illegal, that's not going to be high risk.

01:32:45.000 There's something you can do that's not going to kill you or put you in jail that you can be excited about.

01:32:50.000 Yeah, and I think it's one of the most important things to do when you're a parent is to try to expose your kid to as many different things as possible to find those things for them.

01:33:01.000 Yeah.

01:33:01.000 And I got two boys, as you know, and you know one of them really well.

01:33:05.000 And I did that growing up because my dad never took me hunting a single day in his life.

01:33:11.000 He never took me fishing a single day in his life.

01:33:14.000 He never took me camping a single day in his life.

01:33:16.000 He never took me to the lake.

01:33:18.000 He never took me skiing, boating, anything.

01:33:20.000 So I took them to all of those things.

01:33:23.000 I had no clue what I was doing.

01:33:26.000 Yeah.

01:33:26.000 But I took them turkey hunting, duck hunting, deer hunting, skiing, snow skiing, camping.

01:33:34.000 I did it all.

01:33:35.000 And to see what they liked.

01:33:38.000 Let them pick. 1.00

01:33:40.000 And boy, when you don't know what you're doing, As a dad, that's a bitch. 1.00

01:33:46.000 I mean, just little things, like you go camping and you don't realize that setting your tent up on the side of a hill, even if it's like 8 or 10 degrees, is a bad idea. 0.98

01:33:59.000 You can't sleep.

01:33:59.000 You've got to get on flat ground.

01:34:01.000 I mean, it looked flat to me, but I spent the night trying not to roll down a damn hill. 0.96

01:34:05.000 It didn't look like it was on a slant, but it was. 0.96

01:34:08.000 But you figure these things out as you go along.

01:34:10.000 But I was glad I gave them those things.

01:34:15.000 Well, I don't know both of you kids, but I love Jay.

01:34:20.000 Yeah, Jay loves you.

01:34:22.000 He really enjoys spending time with you guys and traveling with you guys.

01:34:26.000 Yeah, we've had a bunch of great trips.

01:34:29.000 He's an awesome guy.

01:34:31.000 He really is.

01:34:32.000 So much fun.

01:34:33.000 Yeah, he knows how to have a good time, and he says the same thing about you.

01:34:36.000 He says, you know how to have a good time.

01:34:38.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:34:39.000 Well, listen, man, tell people how to get a hold of your podcast.

01:34:42.000 Where can they get it?

01:34:43.000 Well, it's fill in the blanks, and that's P-H-I-L in the blanks, and I guess you get it everywhere podcasts are gotten, right?

01:34:52.000 Yep, iTunes, all that jazz.

01:34:53.000 iTunes, Apple, Stitcher, all the different places that you get it.

01:34:57.000 There it is right there. 1.00

01:34:58.000 Look at you, you handsome bastard. 1.00

01:34:59.000 Yeah, look at that. 1.00

01:35:00.000 I mean, how about that?

01:35:01.000 Clean up nice.

01:35:02.000 I do clean up pretty good, don't I? See, the good thing about being bald is you look the same all the time, right?

01:35:08.000 Yes, that's true.

01:35:08.000 Yeah, and you save money on shampoo.

01:35:10.000 You save money on shampoo, and I've been bald since I was like 12, so...

01:35:14.000 Really?

01:35:15.000 My hair fell out really early.

01:35:17.000 Wow.

01:35:18.000 I remember playing college football.

01:35:20.000 I'd take my helmet off, and it looked like I had an animal in there.

01:35:24.000 Like, what the hell is going on here?

01:35:27.000 My teammates would say, what the hell is in your helmet?

01:35:30.000 It's my hair. 1.00

01:35:31.000 Shut up. 0.99

01:35:33.000 I don't know why, but it just fell out. 1.00

01:35:35.000 I guess it got knocked out.

01:35:36.000 Well, the mustache works, too.

01:35:38.000 A lot of guys can't rock a mustache.

01:35:40.000 I'd look a little creepy with one. 0.96

01:35:41.000 Yeah, well, I try to keep it where it doesn't look like total porn.

01:35:46.000 That's tough, though.

01:35:47.000 How do you do that?

01:35:49.000 You've got to embrace your weaknesses.

01:35:50.000 I remember when I wrote my first book on Oprah, she said, you won't have any trouble finding it.

01:35:56.000 It's got this big old bald head right there on the front of it.

01:35:59.000 So I figured, hell, make it a trademark, right?

01:36:01.000 Oprah went hard on you.

01:36:02.000 Yeah, she did from the beginning.

01:36:04.000 I got no complaints.

01:36:05.000 Yeah, oh, I hear you.

01:36:06.000 She treated me pretty right.

01:36:07.000 Yeah, it worked out great.

01:36:08.000 Hey, thanks for having me on.

01:36:10.000 My pleasure.

01:36:10.000 You've got to come do mine.

01:36:12.000 Absolutely, 100%.

01:36:13.000 Thank you.

01:36:13.000 Dr. Phil, ladies and gentlemen, Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 26, 2019

Joe Rogan Experience #1254 - Dr. Phil

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