The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

00:00:00.000 Two, one, boom. 0.97

00:00:02.000 And we're live.

00:00:02.000 First of all, cheers, gentlemen.

00:00:04.000 Let's have a little toast.

00:00:06.000 Relax.

00:00:07.000 Bob, thank you very much for doing this.

00:00:08.000 I really appreciate it.

00:00:09.000 I understand that you've told this story many, many times.

00:00:13.000 You've been grilled many, many times, and it's very stressful for you, so I really, really appreciate your time.

00:00:19.000 For people who don't know the story, there is a documentary.

00:00:24.000 Jeremy Corbell has a documentary out right now.

00:00:27.000 It's called Bob Lazar, Area 51 and UFOs.

00:00:30.000 And Flying Saucers.

00:00:32.000 And Flying Saucers.

00:00:33.000 Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers.

00:00:36.000 I first heard your story decades ago.

00:00:39.000 I told you last night when we went out to dinner.

00:00:41.000 I've seen pretty much every interview you've ever given.

00:00:44.000 I've followed the story incredibly closely.

00:00:46.000 But for people who don't know the story, let's give them the bullet points.

00:00:51.000 You...

00:00:53.000 You used to work at Area 51. And Area 51...

00:00:57.000 Well, you know, we want to be accurate.

00:01:01.000 Area S4. S4, okay.

00:01:03.000 It's about 15 miles south of Area 51. Okay.

00:01:07.000 You worked in...

00:01:11.000 How would you describe it?

00:01:13.000 I guess within the Area 51 compound.

00:01:16.000 You can call that a subset of Area 51. And you got that job.

00:01:21.000 Before that, you were working...

00:01:23.000 Before that, I had worked at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico.

00:01:27.000 And you were involved in what kind of work?

00:01:30.000 Nuclear weapon development, physics.

00:01:32.000 I mean, they do everything there.

00:01:34.000 So how do they approach you to say, hey, Bob, why don't you come on out to the Nevada desert?

00:01:42.000 Well, the way this went down was...

00:01:47.000 At that time, it was 1982, I had put a jet engine in my Honda and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the paper.

00:02:01.000 I said, you know, Los Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this 200-mile-an-hour Honda jet car that I drove to work every day.

00:02:11.000 So I was known in Los Alamos, the guy with the weird car, and you could hear it from a mile away.

00:02:19.000 Anyway...

00:02:21.000 The day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab.

00:02:32.000 And we didn't have much going on that day in our group, and I asked if I could go down there.

00:02:39.000 And I went down there early, and Ed Teller was outside, leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper.

00:02:48.000 Now, this is a guy out of history, so I introduced myself.

00:02:50.000 Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there.

00:02:53.000 And we talked for a little while, and it was cool.

00:02:55.000 You know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas and had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things and I wanted to get back into the scientific community.

00:03:06.000 You know, I left to start other businesses and that sort of thing.

00:03:10.000 So I sent resumes out and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting.

00:03:16.000 You know, back in the day.

00:03:19.000 And anyway, he remembered me and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG&G. And that's pretty much how it started.

00:03:29.000 So you get a phone call or a letter?

00:03:33.000 Like, what do you get?

00:03:36.000 Well, I got a letter initially and went down for an interview probably a couple times.

00:03:44.000 And it was down at EG&G Special Projects, which was at McCarran Airport at that time in Las Vegas.

00:03:51.000 And did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for?

00:03:56.000 They said it was for...

00:03:58.000 I can't remember exactly what they did.

00:04:01.000 This was a long time ago.

00:04:02.000 But I think it was advanced propulsion or something like that.

00:04:07.000 Something relatively generic.

00:04:08.000 And they said it's in a remote area.

00:04:12.000 It's going to be some days on, some days off.

00:04:15.000 And it was kind of a...

00:04:19.000 It was kind of, not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off.

00:04:26.000 So it was kind of, the work schedule would be kind of broken up.

00:04:30.000 And did this seem attractive to you or did it seem weird?

00:04:34.000 No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, you know, working at the nuclear test site or at the Tonopah test range north of there, That's typically how things go.

00:04:48.000 So you had known about it from the scientific community?

00:04:51.000 Because Area 51 at that time was still classified?

00:04:53.000 No, they didn't say anything about Area 51. Okay, so they just...

00:04:56.000 They just said it was in a, you know, in a remote location and you just know it was up at the test site.

00:05:01.000 Right.

00:05:01.000 So, but there was no mention of Area 51 at that time.

00:05:04.000 So they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in Nevada.

00:05:08.000 Nevada, that whole area was, there's been, there's giant chunks of Nevada that people...

00:05:13.000 Big piece of Nevada, and it's split up into different areas.

00:05:16.000 There's a nuclear test site.

00:05:17.000 There's Area 51. There's the Tonopah test range north of that.

00:05:21.000 There's little sub-areas.

00:05:22.000 There's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that.

00:05:25.000 So it's all broken up as a gigantic test area.

00:05:28.000 So take me back to first day on the job.

00:05:31.000 You accept a job.

00:05:33.000 They take you out there.

00:05:34.000 Yeah.

00:05:36.000 It's...

00:05:39.000 The first day, really, I didn't really get to see a whole lot.

00:05:42.000 The first day was essentially just paperwork.

00:05:44.000 That's when I flew into Area 51 proper.

00:05:47.000 And I left McCarran Airport and flew what they call the Janet flights.

00:05:53.000 Just...

00:05:54.000 You know, a passenger plane from Las Vegas to Area 51. And it was really just going through a mountain of paperwork that day.

00:06:04.000 From security clearances to...

00:06:07.000 God, it was like two or three hours of just solid paperwork.

00:06:12.000 And that was really an uneventful first day.

00:06:16.000 When did things get weird?

00:06:21.000 When did you realize, at what point in time did you say, hey, this is not normal work?

00:06:28.000 Like, this doesn't even seem like it's from this planet.

00:06:32.000 I can't tell you what day that occurred on, because so much time has gone by.

00:06:37.000 The days have kind of fused into one, and I can't separate the days.

00:06:41.000 Was it a slow burn, or was there a moment of recognition?

00:06:45.000 Well, there...

00:06:47.000 The first inkling I had was when I came in.

00:06:50.000 There's this facility that is at S4. It's in the side of a mountain.

00:06:56.000 And normally we had pulled in with the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door.

00:07:04.000 This time that I went in, there were hangar doors open.

00:07:08.000 I went into the hangar door, and in the hangar door was the disc, the flying saucer that I worked on.

00:07:14.000 I saw it sitting there, and we walked by it.

00:07:17.000 It had a little American flag stuck on the side, and I thought, oh my god, this finally explains all the flying saucer stories. 0.97

00:07:23.000 This is just an advanced fighter, and this is fucking hilarious. 0.97

00:07:28.000 So I went by. 0.98

00:07:29.000 I slid my hand alongside it.

00:07:31.000 I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing.

00:07:34.000 And there was a guy, an armed guard, that followed us in and just said, keep your eyes forward and your hands at your side and just walk in the door.

00:07:41.000 So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird.

00:07:47.000 It was some time later that I was introduced to my lab partner, Barry.

00:07:53.000 And we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab.

00:07:58.000 And Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner.

00:08:02.000 So he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things.

00:08:05.000 And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist.

00:08:17.000 So, I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different.

00:08:22.000 What was it?

00:08:23.000 What was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist?

00:08:32.000 Well, I actually have to back up because there were some briefings that I read before that that certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job.

00:08:44.000 But this was the first hands-on thing.

00:08:46.000 This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere about the size of a basketball.

00:08:52.000 On a metal plate, and when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own.

00:08:59.000 Now this is something that we can't do.

00:09:01.000 We can't produce any gravity.

00:09:03.000 The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass.

00:09:07.000 But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity.

00:09:10.000 Like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field.

00:09:15.000 We can't make a gravitational field.

00:09:17.000 Anyway, this device was producing that.

00:09:19.000 And Barry said, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere.

00:09:25.000 And I couldn't.

00:09:26.000 It pushed my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet.

00:09:30.000 So like when you take two magnets and you try to press them together and they push against each other?

00:09:34.000 Yeah, kind of cushioned feeling, but you can't get them together.

00:09:38.000 The closer you put them, the more they push.

00:09:40.000 And you felt that physically with your hand?

00:09:41.000 Yeah, now there's nothing that does that.

00:09:44.000 And that immediately caught my attention, going, wow, this is something else.

00:09:49.000 What was your thought?

00:09:50.000 Like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce this?

00:09:56.000 Then that connected me to the briefings that I read on the first day at S4 was that, you know, everything that I had read was apparently accurate.

00:10:06.000 What were you reading?

00:10:07.000 It was kind of an overview...

00:10:11.000 This project was to back-engineer the alien craft, and specifically it was to try and back-engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials.

00:10:26.000 Now to do this, they split the project into, you know, many different pieces for several reasons.

00:10:32.000 They do this on all classified projects.

00:10:34.000 So nobody has the complete story, but they compartmentalize everything.

00:10:40.000 Now we had the power and propulsion system.

00:10:42.000 So what briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft.

00:10:50.000 The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects.

00:10:58.000 You have to know their existence.

00:11:01.000 So, again, everything from metallurgy to weapon potential, the craft.

00:11:11.000 These were all, you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just power and propulsion, and it made it very clear that what I read was accurate.

00:11:22.000 So when you're reading that, before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on what they were describing?

00:11:32.000 If you knew that something like that didn't exist, and they're describing it in the briefings, what did you think you were going to see?

00:11:40.000 I really...

00:11:40.000 I didn't know at the time.

00:11:42.000 I mean, I was reading...

00:11:43.000 I thought, is this some kind of test? 0.93

00:11:46.000 See if you're crazy? 0.58

00:11:47.000 Well, not to see if I'm crazy to...

00:11:49.000 You know, a lot of times they'll take in real high security jobs.

00:11:55.000 I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them.

00:11:59.000 Whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone was to leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from.

00:12:06.000 So I... Read through the documents.

00:12:09.000 But, you know, I didn't know if this was, you know, part of some kind of test or, you know, or what?

00:12:17.000 Or was it potentially realistic?

00:12:18.000 I mean, I really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being the actual thing that I was going to work on at the time.

00:12:28.000 How did they turn it on?

00:12:30.000 The reactor?

00:12:31.000 The reactor can be turned on or turned off in a lot of different ways.

00:12:36.000 The way Barry showed me, the hemisphere is removed.

00:12:40.000 There's a small tower in the middle.

00:12:42.000 When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates.

00:12:45.000 The reactor shuts down.

00:12:47.000 It's load sensing.

00:12:49.000 So if there's no load on the reactor at all, it shuts down.

00:12:53.000 When there's a load present on it, it starts up again.

00:12:57.000 Load meaning?

00:12:58.000 You can consider it an electrical load.

00:13:01.000 So...

00:13:02.000 Although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically.

00:13:07.000 There's no wiring that connects any of the sub-components together whatsoever.

00:13:10.000 They just have to be in the immediate vicinity.

00:13:14.000 The stuff is borderline magic.

00:13:17.000 And that's essentially where we left it, you know, when I left the project.

00:13:22.000 So there was no progress made?

00:13:25.000 There was some progress.

00:13:26.000 I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and had a rough idea, we think, of what was going on, but I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time.

00:13:39.000 And, you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me, and I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on, but, you know, Barry alluded to that.

00:13:53.000 Horrific accident, like where someone died?

00:13:55.000 Yeah, where somebody died.

00:13:57.000 Because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked?

00:14:01.000 Yeah, the reactor in particular.

00:14:03.000 But yet he let you touch it?

00:14:05.000 Yeah, I think what they were trying to do was cut into one.

00:14:09.000 Now, they had more than one there.

00:14:12.000 Supposedly, there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was.

00:14:17.000 At the time, remember, they were still doing underground nuclear tests at the test site.

00:14:22.000 But from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made.

00:14:26.000 Now, this must have been a pretty desperate attempt because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know, analyze something that way.

00:14:33.000 But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something I got to cut into an operating reactor.

00:14:39.000 How many of these things did they have?

00:14:41.000 They had nine craft altogether.

00:14:43.000 I only got hands-on with one of them, so I can't really say how the others operated.

00:14:50.000 Did you see the other ones?

00:14:51.000 Yeah.

00:14:51.000 At one time, and only one time, the bay doors between the hangers were all open, and I could see all the way through.

00:14:59.000 And were they all exactly the same?

00:15:02.000 No, they were all different.

00:15:03.000 Different shapes?

00:15:04.000 Yeah.

00:15:05.000 But they were all from somewhere else.

00:15:07.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:35.000 The small component.

00:15:36.000 But they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while?

00:15:40.000 Yeah.

00:15:41.000 When do you think they acquired these?

00:15:44.000 I really couldn't say.

00:15:47.000 I think they've been around for a while.

00:15:50.000 So they bring you into this room, you see this reactor working, you realize this is nothing that as far as like the scientific community at current time has the ability to create.

00:16:05.000 We still don't.

00:16:06.000 What is your life like from that moment on?

00:16:08.000 Is that where everything changes?

00:16:10.000 I would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being, something where you can absolutely be certain it's not from here, your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in,

00:16:26.000 is now a different place.

00:16:28.000 Well, this is the only time it became exciting.

00:16:31.000 You know, the rest of the time, it was really an ominous feeling being at work.

00:16:36.000 But at that time, it was exciting.

00:16:39.000 I mean, this was...

00:16:40.000 Now I knew we were on the absolute beyond...

00:16:43.000 Actually, beyond the cutting edge of science.

00:16:45.000 And I was so absolutely excited to be there every single time I was.

00:16:52.000 You know, this was a fantastic opportunity.

00:16:58.000 However...

00:16:59.000 In short order, it began to concern me.

00:17:03.000 We really have no idea what we're talking about.

00:17:09.000 The excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.

00:17:19.000 I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power.

00:17:26.000 And I've given the example before of You know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time, and just dropping it in a room.

00:17:40.000 And they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works.

00:17:45.000 So they start taking it apart.

00:17:47.000 And as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside.

00:17:53.000 Now, people have no idea that radiation even exists back then.

00:17:58.000 But anybody that comes in to check on them will also drop dead.

00:18:02.000 And, you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with.

00:18:09.000 We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing.

00:18:14.000 The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.

00:18:17.000 It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that.

00:18:21.000 And, you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs.

00:18:24.000 Just try to find out how to make this thing.

00:18:26.000 So they had a series, as far as you surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back-engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was, and they would bring in new people and, like, let's throw Bob at it.

00:18:38.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:39.000 I don't know how many, but I knew there was certainly one before me, and I knew he died during the analysis of the reactor itself.

00:18:49.000 And you don't know how many have worked on it, and no one gave any indication?

00:18:55.000 This could have been there for 50 years.

00:18:57.000 It could have been there for five years.

00:18:59.000 When they're giving you instructions, what are they saying?

00:19:01.000 Like, when they're giving you direction, they're showing you all this stuff, like, what are they saying?

00:19:05.000 Specifically, what are they asking of you?

00:19:08.000 Well, essentially what they ask is what I said.

00:19:11.000 We are just to gather as much information as possible, find out how it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.

00:19:16.000 But they never told you where it was from.

00:19:19.000 They never let you ask questions about where it's from.

00:19:24.000 If the information I read in the briefings was accurate, now what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.

00:19:34.000 What I read did, I mean, did jive with reality.

00:19:41.000 In terms of how?

00:19:43.000 In terms of how it was made, what we saw, how it operated, the materials, how it turned on, and what was discovered about it.

00:19:54.000 I'm sorry.

00:19:54.000 The migraine is really making it hard for me to think here.

00:19:57.000 Sorry.

00:19:57.000 We talked that before the podcast.

00:19:59.000 You tell everybody Bob is getting a migraine.

00:20:01.000 I know you're very stressed out by this.

00:20:03.000 It's just one of the reasons why I appreciate you doing this.

00:20:07.000 Where was I already?

00:20:08.000 Oh, right.

00:20:09.000 We explained it.

00:20:10.000 And so there was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

00:20:19.000 Now, yeah.

00:20:21.000 Now, how they obtained that, I haven't the slightest idea.

00:20:25.000 But it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

00:20:28.000 It was what they called ZR3. So it was a third planet in that star system.

00:20:34.000 So...

00:20:35.000 There was no other information about it other than that's supposedly where the craft came from.

00:20:40.000 Now, is that true?

00:20:41.000 I don't know.

00:20:42.000 I have no way of verifying that, but that was printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor.

00:20:47.000 Now, I looked that stuff up when I went home, and Zeta Reticuli is a binary star, two stars that orbit one another.

00:20:57.000 And it's only visible in the Southern Hemisphere, and it's about 30 some odd light years away.

00:21:01.000 So that's literally all the information I have about that.

00:21:04.000 I don't know how they found out it came from there.

00:21:07.000 And you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation like you were talking about before.

00:21:13.000 Yeah. 0.72

00:21:14.000 I mean, if you ever decided to talk about this, they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual look ridiculous. 0.64

00:21:21.000 Right. 0.57

00:21:22.000 Or be able to trace it down.

00:21:24.000 Like, okay, this fax came out and, you know, this Lazar guy said it came from Zeta Reticuli, so they knew it would be me. 0.98

00:21:31.000 When you read Zeta Reticuli, were you like, what in the fuck is this? 0.99

00:21:35.000 Well, reading all of the stuff, it was, what in the fuck is this? 0.99

00:21:38.000 You're like, why did I sign up for this? 0.99

00:21:40.000 No, no.

00:21:41.000 To me, this was cool.

00:21:42.000 This was interesting.

00:21:43.000 I was just excited to be out in a secure area, you know, in the middle of the desert.

00:21:48.000 I said, this is awesome.

00:21:49.000 How old were you at the time?

00:21:50.000 As in my 20s.

00:21:53.000 Yeah, so you're probably totally geeked out.

00:21:55.000 Oh, yeah.

00:21:56.000 This was great.

00:21:58.000 I mean, I was excited.

00:22:00.000 So I didn't care.

00:22:00.000 I'm reading through everything.

00:22:02.000 So you read through all the Zeta Reticuli thing, but then when you see the actual starship with the little American flag sticker on it, I think...

00:22:08.000 Well, that was...

00:22:09.000 Was that later or before?

00:22:14.000 That was before.

00:22:16.000 So before.

00:22:16.000 So you see the thing before and you say, oh, this is American.

00:22:19.000 Wait, what's that before?

00:22:20.000 Hard.

00:22:20.000 So many years.

00:22:21.000 Yeah, I can't.

00:22:22.000 Either way.

00:22:23.000 It doesn't matter.

00:22:24.000 The days have fused together.

00:22:25.000 It's so hard to separate what happened in each visit to the place.

00:22:28.000 Do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from Zeta Reticuli?

00:22:32.000 Yeah, it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything.

00:22:36.000 It was just like, yeah, okay. 1.00

00:22:38.000 You think it was bullshit? 1.00

00:22:39.000 I don't know. 1.00

00:22:41.000 Now I don't.

00:22:42.000 I mean, because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything.

00:22:45.000 And this was just a bunch of stuff I was reading.

00:22:47.000 And I thought, maybe after this, they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember in crazy information.

00:22:54.000 But like I said, when I finally went in with Barry...

00:23:01.000 And had hands-on experience with what they were talking about.

00:23:05.000 It's on a completely different meaning.

00:23:08.000 So there's a plate.

00:23:09.000 There's this thing that looks like half a basketball.

00:23:11.000 And when it's on, you can't come anywhere near it.

00:23:13.000 You can't touch it.

00:23:14.000 Right.

00:23:15.000 What is gravity about that?

00:23:18.000 The concept of gravity to most people is gravity is bringing something towards it.

00:23:22.000 Right.

00:23:22.000 Well, I guess you would say it's anti-gravity.

00:23:25.000 It's gravity shifted 180 degrees.

00:23:27.000 It's anti-gravity.

00:23:31.000 And did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect?

00:23:37.000 Did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into?

00:23:45.000 Well, they knew there was a fuel source in it and they were proficient at making it work.

00:23:53.000 And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place.

00:24:03.000 Everybody will come around it and they'll poke and prod and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start and become proficient at riding it.

00:24:10.000 Yeah.

00:24:11.000 But they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on.

00:24:15.000 They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else.

00:24:18.000 And I think that's exactly the state we were at.

00:24:21.000 We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work.

00:24:32.000 How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time.

00:24:39.000 I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything.

00:24:47.000 They could just watch what was going on and make note of it.

00:24:50.000 How long were you there?

00:24:52.000 I'd say about six months or so.

00:24:54.000 And what progress was made while you were there?

00:24:57.000 Well, we came up with a bunch of Reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked.

00:25:05.000 And one of them was the base, the square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator, a circular one.

00:25:14.000 Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators are just, you know...

00:25:18.000 Long tube, essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltage and radio frequencies until they reach high speeds.

00:25:25.000 But a cyclotron does that in a small circular area.

00:25:28.000 And there's this very heavy element fuel, element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time.

00:25:37.000 But it is now.

00:25:38.000 It is now, yeah.

00:25:39.000 When did it become on the periodic table now, the charts now?

00:25:43.000 You know, I don't remember.

00:25:45.000 Do you remember when they...

00:25:46.000 2004, Dermstadt, Germany, I think, is where they first fabricated four atoms.

00:25:51.000 It lasted 220 milliseconds with the atoms.

00:25:54.000 It's nothing, right?

00:25:55.000 And then it later was discovered a couple more times they could fabricate it.

00:25:59.000 Then they gave it a place then on the periodic chart.

00:26:02.000 After that, called it Muscovium.

00:26:04.000 So they told you about this stuff in 1982?

00:26:09.000 Yeah, well, we kind of...

00:26:12.000 What year was this?

00:26:13.000 It was 88 and 89 when I was there.

00:26:16.000 82 is when I was at Los Alamos.

00:26:19.000 I'm sorry.

00:26:19.000 Yeah.

00:26:20.000 So 88, 89, they told you about this stuff.

00:26:22.000 So this was not like...

00:26:23.000 No, they didn't tell me about it.

00:26:25.000 That's one of the things that this group came up with.

00:26:30.000 God, I keep losing my train of thought with this thing.

00:26:34.000 So this one area...

00:26:37.000 This element 115 was the fuel.

00:26:40.000 Yeah, it was the fuel.

00:26:50.000 The world will forgive you for having a migraine.

00:26:54.000 It's really hard to think through this.

00:26:55.000 Just give me a minute.

00:26:56.000 We'll just give you more booze. 1.00

00:26:57.000 Yeah, definitely.

00:26:58.000 I was going to say one thing.

00:27:00.000 For the last 30 years, people have just been on the attack on Bob, getting to know him, the personal effects on his life.

00:27:07.000 It's really hard to understand unless you meet his family and his wife. 0.88

00:27:11.000 I mean, this is the last thing he wanted to fucking do, was have to talk.

00:27:15.000 Yeah, we should explain that, Jeremy, that you and I had this conversation. 0.97

00:27:18.000 I watched your documentary.

00:27:20.000 We had this conversation, and I said, I have to talk to him.

00:27:24.000 The document, there's been detractors, there's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said, but over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the 80s, have proven to be true.

00:27:38.000 Things that people said were not true were proven to be true.

00:27:41.000 Element 115 was one of them.

00:27:44.000 Right, right.

00:27:46.000 Element 115, the fuel they had, was stable.

00:27:50.000 In other words, it didn't decay.

00:27:51.000 It wasn't emitting radioactivity.

00:27:53.000 When they synthesized the two or three atoms of the 115, it did decay, and it was not a stable element.

00:28:02.000 So they're kind of two different things.

00:28:04.000 But this is kind of typical.

00:28:06.000 Elements Always have, or pretty much always have, stable isotopes and unstable isotopes.

00:28:12.000 I think cesium has like 30 unstable isotopes to it.

00:28:17.000 Well, hydrogen, for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas.

00:28:22.000 It's stable.

00:28:23.000 It's not radioactive.

00:28:24.000 But there's also two other types of hydrogen.

00:28:28.000 Deuterium and tritium.

00:28:30.000 And deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another stable isotope of hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive.

00:28:36.000 Now they're all hydrogen, but they just have different amounts of neutrons.

00:28:40.000 So it's the same thing with other elements and element 115. Depending on the amount of neutrons it has, It's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about.

00:29:06.000 So they somehow or another had acquired a stable version.

00:29:10.000 Did they say that the stable version had come with this craft?

00:29:12.000 Yeah, it absolutely came with the craft, yeah.

00:29:14.000 So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?

00:29:27.000 Well, everything was impossible.

00:29:29.000 Right.

00:29:29.000 I mean, down to the metal, I did get a chance To look inside the craft on only one occasion, and this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates without any interconnections,

00:29:47.000 so the placement of components might be critical.

00:29:50.000 So they allowed me to go inside and look at it.

00:29:56.000 Shoot, again, I forgot where the hell I am.

00:29:58.000 So you're going into this craft, and what are you thinking when you're inside of it?

00:30:02.000 Like, what are you seeing?

00:30:04.000 It's a very ominous feeling, because it's, there are no, first of all, everything is one color.

00:30:12.000 It's like a dark pewter color, and there are no right angles anywhere.

00:30:17.000 It's as if somebody took, I've said this before, somebody took a model and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted.

00:30:28.000 Everything looks like it's fused together.

00:30:30.000 Everything has a radius of curvature where two items meet.

00:30:35.000 It's a really weird-looking thing.

00:30:38.000 But...

00:30:42.000 There was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that looked recognizable.

00:30:50.000 Everything was really unworldly, to pick on it, a way to describe it.

00:30:56.000 So you get inside this thing, and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being.

00:31:02.000 Yeah, you can't really stand up until you get to the very center of it.

00:31:05.000 And how tall are you?

00:31:06.000 I'm 5'10".

00:31:07.000 And what do you think this was designed for?

00:31:10.000 I'd say something close to half my height.

00:31:12.000 Wow.

00:31:13.000 So these little three foot tall-ish creatures. 0.94

00:31:16.000 Yeah, and the seats were small, too.

00:31:19.000 I mean, obviously it was made, you know, for something, something small.

00:31:23.000 But there is no, like, there's nothing else in there.

00:31:27.000 There's just seats, the reactor, and some of the subcomponents.

00:31:31.000 There's no control panels, there's no bathroom, there's no decorative components or artwork or anything that you would recognize or trim.

00:31:41.000 I mean, it's just a very bare-bones thing.

00:31:43.000 You're not seeing any screens?

00:31:47.000 Well, there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure, and one of the archways can become transparent.

00:31:56.000 When I was in there, there was another group working on one of the archways, and you could call that a screen, more or less.

00:32:05.000 So, through that archway, it would maintain the solidity, the solid, whatever metal it was?

00:32:13.000 Yeah.

00:32:13.000 But you could see through it?

00:32:14.000 Yeah, it just became transparent, yeah.

00:32:16.000 I saw that happen once or twice before I left. 0.98

00:32:19.000 Did you ask any questions about what the fuck that was? 0.98

00:32:20.000 No, there's no asking questions. 0.99

00:32:22.000 There's no asking questions.

00:32:23.000 No.

00:32:23.000 But when you watch something become transparent, and you realize it's still there, but you can now see through it...

00:32:29.000 Yeah, I mean, no, that's not that impressive.

00:32:32.000 We do have some liquid crystal materials that are like that.

00:32:36.000 I've seen that in bathrooms. 0.97

00:32:37.000 Smart glass.

00:32:37.000 Yeah, they call it smart glass.

00:32:40.000 And I don't know if the craft is made of an advanced metal or a ceramic.

00:32:45.000 It was cold to the touch, so I would lean more towards the metal.

00:32:50.000 And again, you're not allowed to ask questions.

00:32:52.000 No.

00:32:52.000 They work on the buddy system.

00:32:55.000 So I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry.

00:32:58.000 Now, this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion.

00:33:04.000 And ideally, you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward.

00:33:10.000 But they're so over-the-top concerned about security, they split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant.

00:33:19.000 It just destroys any of the progress you can make, or at least makes it go so slow.

00:33:27.000 I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot. 0.94

00:33:29.000 Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a... 0.84

00:33:37.000 I think that was an act of desperation.

00:33:54.000 And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it, to pilot?

00:34:04.000 Was there a pilot seat?

00:34:06.000 There were three seats.

00:34:08.000 They sat around.

00:34:09.000 The reactor was in the dead center of it.

00:34:12.000 And then equidistant around there were three seats.

00:34:16.000 And that's all.

00:34:17.000 There was a large...

00:34:19.000 They're not consoles.

00:34:21.000 They're large rectangular objects, also spaced, equidistant around the center.

00:34:27.000 There's nothing on them.

00:34:28.000 There's no buttons.

00:34:29.000 There's no lights.

00:34:30.000 There's no controls.

00:34:30.000 And they look the same color, the same thing.

00:34:32.000 Everything is the same color.

00:34:33.000 It's just a different shape.

00:34:34.000 Right.

00:34:34.000 And directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft.

00:34:40.000 The main level is what we're talking about.

00:34:42.000 Directly under that...

00:34:45.000 I think we're good to go.

00:35:13.000 And I think that just determines its position in space.

00:35:18.000 But I physically was in the center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.

00:35:30.000 What is roughly the size of this thing?

00:35:32.000 I don't remember from being there, but after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw and known sizes of things,

00:35:51.000 and we came up with 52 feet in diameter.

00:35:54.000 So it's fairly small.

00:35:56.000 Yeah, so I think that's a fair, a reasonable guess.

00:35:59.000 Now, you said there's nine of them, and you got a brief glimpse at the other ones.

00:36:03.000 How were they different?

00:36:05.000 Oh, they looked completely different.

00:36:07.000 One looked like a, I called a jello mold, and it looked like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it.

00:36:14.000 One was a very flat disc.

00:36:18.000 You know, like a straw hat or something like that.

00:36:22.000 That was sitting up on its edge and the thin part of it looked like a projectile had been fired through the edge of it.

00:36:31.000 So I don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated or if that's where the thing came from.

00:36:39.000 Maybe it was shot down.

00:36:41.000 But that was the only one where I saw there was actual physical damage to it.

00:36:46.000 And that one was roughly the same size?

00:36:49.000 They were kind of too far away to tell.

00:36:52.000 And there were several teams that were working on the propulsion system, so there were different teams that were working on these different aircrafts?

00:37:01.000 I don't know.

00:37:02.000 I could only assume.

00:37:05.000 Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft, your goal is to try to figure out how this thing functions.

00:37:16.000 Your goal is to try to figure out how this reactor...

00:37:19.000 I mean, imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out.

00:37:24.000 Oh, it wasn't one day.

00:37:25.000 Right.

00:37:26.000 Yeah, I mean, this is...

00:37:28.000 Barry was there.

00:37:29.000 I think Barry was sleeping there.

00:37:31.000 I'm sure they had...

00:37:32.000 Now, that isn't weird.

00:37:34.000 I mean, up at the Tonopah test range where they work on stealth fighters, you know, you go, I think, three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there, too.

00:37:43.000 So it's not weird to stay up at the test site.

00:37:45.000 So, yeah, I think he pretty much...

00:37:47.000 And he acted like he's been up there for a long time.

00:37:52.000 But...

00:37:52.000 But he's still there.

00:37:53.000 Yeah, who knows?

00:37:54.000 Do you have contact with this guy?

00:37:56.000 No.

00:37:57.000 Oh, no.

00:37:57.000 I wish I did.

00:37:58.000 I kind of thought he was going to come out after I did. 0.99

00:38:02.000 And I think I took so much flack and it's so much shit for what went on. 0.94

00:38:08.000 I think actually I wound up helping security there and everybody became afraid of, you know, doing or saying anything after that. 0.74

00:38:17.000 So what kind of reports did you have to give?

00:38:20.000 So you're not making much progress, right?

00:38:22.000 You're just trying to figure out what this thing is, and it seems impossible.

00:38:25.000 Well, we didn't personally make them.

00:38:27.000 I mean, we were always – there was never a lot of information that we gained.

00:38:34.000 The guy, you would call him our supervisor, his name was Dennis Mariani, and kind of a military-looking guy.

00:38:42.000 And he would routinely pop in during the day and, you know, hey, what's going on, guys?

00:38:48.000 And he would essentially relay any information, anything new we came up with.

00:38:53.000 I mean, he was our go-between, where we presented him the information, and then he took it to wherever they were, you know, assembling all the data from everybody.

00:39:02.000 Now, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight-hour day?

00:39:05.000 No.

00:39:06.000 No?

00:39:07.000 No, it was really weird that I would be only called in on certain times and certain days, and they would be weird hours, too.

00:39:15.000 Most of the time was later in the evening.

00:39:17.000 I mean, I can get a call at 11 o'clock at night, and they'll say, you know, it's now 11 o'clock.

00:39:23.000 By 11.45, you need to be at McCarran Terminal, and, you know, we'll let you know when...

00:39:31.000 We have more information.

00:39:32.000 But what did you do while you were there?

00:39:34.000 If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about.

00:39:45.000 Sure.

00:39:46.000 I mean, the thing was to...

00:39:47.000 What you do, you know...

00:39:50.000 With anything.

00:39:51.000 If you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is perform tests.

00:39:55.000 And all we did is try and come up with every kind of test we possibly could.

00:40:00.000 I mean, we tested, you know, it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate.

00:40:07.000 I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics, I mean, essentially, any machine, any device that operates always makes extra heat.

00:40:16.000 Nothing works at 100% efficient.

00:40:18.000 Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat and it's just wasted.

00:40:27.000 This didn't.

00:40:28.000 I mean, we looked at, back then we had infrared cameras.

00:40:31.000 They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen.

00:40:41.000 But it never got, no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature, which is impossible.

00:40:52.000 Pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.

00:40:57.000 We tried measuring magnetic fields and there was nothing there.

00:41:01.000 So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused.

00:41:10.000 So we really spent all our time Just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control.

00:41:19.000 So you were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?

00:41:24.000 No, not really.

00:41:25.000 I mean, we really could only come up with a best guess.

00:41:31.000 Now, I can't say that I could absolutely state for certainty how anything actually worked.

00:41:40.000 Now, did you know at all how they were piloting it?

00:41:45.000 Because they were doing some tests where they were having these things fly around in the sky.

00:41:52.000 And this is what gets us deeper into your story.

00:41:57.000 Right.

00:42:00.000 I was out there for one test.

00:42:05.000 In fact, I was with Barry in the lab, and Dennis came in and said, we're about to run a test.

00:42:12.000 Why don't you guys come out?

00:42:14.000 Or I think he said, Barry, why don't you come out here and bring Bob with you?

00:42:19.000 We went out there, and the craft was already outside the hangar and was just preparing to lift off.

00:42:26.000 Now, they were in communication with somebody in the craft.

00:42:30.000 So there was a person in the craft.

00:42:32.000 Yeah, there was certainly a person in there.

00:42:35.000 Now, it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small, so the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle, my best guess.

00:42:42.000 And this is the same specific craft that you worked on because that was the only craft that you were in?

00:42:47.000 The only one that I touched and worked on.

00:42:50.000 And it quietly lifted off the ground, which was incredibly impressive to see.

00:42:56.000 Quietly or silently?

00:42:59.000 Well, quietly because it produced a little corona discharge from the bottom.

00:43:08.000 A corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge.

00:43:12.000 As it was lifting off the ground you can hear a slight hiss sound.

00:43:15.000 Now as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped and the blue glow disappeared.

00:43:24.000 It lifted off quietly and then it hovered silently, if you want to be specific.

00:43:29.000 Wow.

00:43:30.000 So then what kind of maneuvers was it doing?

00:43:34.000 For that particular time, it took off, moved a little around to the left and right, and then sat back down.

00:43:42.000 The craft itself, they communicated with it because I saw the guy talking.

00:43:51.000 And a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft.

00:43:56.000 And I even saw the frequency that was on the frequency counter of the communication, the transceiver there.

00:44:04.000 But what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft with a radio.

00:44:13.000 The radio waves should bend around the craft.

00:44:15.000 I mean, it shouldn't be possible.

00:44:17.000 Every single thing about the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us.

00:44:24.000 I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after.

00:44:27.000 Why should the frequency bend around the craft?

00:44:30.000 Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft.

00:44:35.000 The reactor's in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top.

00:44:39.000 There's actually a small appendage that sticks out of the top of the craft, and it produces a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft.

00:44:47.000 Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft.

00:44:56.000 The light bends around it.

00:44:58.000 Your bending gravity bends light.

00:44:59.000 It bends radio waves.

00:45:03.000 It shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it that's distorting all forms of energy.

00:45:11.000 But they were apparently in contact with it.

00:45:15.000 Somehow or another, through some...

00:45:17.000 In an unexplained way, that they didn't bother explaining to you.

00:45:21.000 So this thing gets up, it just does some very simple maneuvers, left, right, left, right, goes down.

00:45:26.000 And did they discuss this with you?

00:45:29.000 I mean, they said they wanted you to see it.

00:45:30.000 No, they just wanted, no, they didn't discuss anything with me.

00:45:34.000 It sat down, we looked around for a bit, and Barry said, let's go back.

00:45:38.000 We went back in the lab.

00:45:39.000 All we got to do was see it.

00:45:42.000 Fast forward to some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft.

00:45:50.000 Now they had times they had designated high performance tests.

00:45:54.000 This obviously wasn't one that was a high performance test.

00:45:58.000 The high-performance test goes above the mountain range, and they do much more radical moves with the thing.

00:46:05.000 Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that.

00:46:13.000 They just play with this thing right over the test site.

00:46:17.000 But they were doing some radical moves with it.

00:46:19.000 And since I had the test flight schedule, statistically...

00:46:25.000 The amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays and that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on.

00:46:41.000 And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden territory around Area 51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right?

00:46:51.000 Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out.

00:46:55.000 Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back.

00:47:04.000 But yeah, I think all that occurred long after, I'm sorry, that I came out.

00:47:10.000 So you're working there and while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule.

00:47:16.000 Forgive me for explaining your story, but you would get these phone calls, you would have to go to the airport at 11pm, and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair.

00:47:31.000 Yeah, apparently so.

00:47:33.000 Now, I did give my permission to have, as part of the security clearance process, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff.

00:47:47.000 They...

00:47:49.000 You know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian top secret clearance, or military top secret clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries, but, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.

00:48:04.000 However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever, about what's going on.

00:48:14.000 So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored.

00:48:19.000 Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too.

00:48:31.000 Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor Now, they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and I didn't.

00:48:39.000 So they stopped me coming in and their attitude at the time was, we need to see how this is going to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything.

00:48:50.000 So let's just, you know, hold him off from coming in and, you know, see what happens.

00:48:58.000 And they explained this to you, what was happening?

00:49:00.000 Yeah.

00:49:00.000 Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around and I started getting a little concerned going, well, Chit, are they booting me out of the project?

00:49:14.000 And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what I know.

00:49:21.000 So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned and I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, hey...

00:49:30.000 Remember that job I told you about?

00:49:33.000 This is what's going on.

00:49:35.000 And you don't need to take my word for it.

00:49:38.000 Wednesday night, we need to all go out here.

00:49:41.000 I want to show you what's going on.

00:49:42.000 So I took everybody and we went out to...

00:49:46.000 Remember, since I had the test flight schedule...

00:49:48.000 And went outside the base, out into the desert, and so everybody could see, you know, one of the high-performance tests.

00:49:56.000 And, you know, it left quite an imprint on everybody, so they knew I wasn't...

00:50:00.000 And there's videos of these tests, right?

00:50:03.000 Yeah, but remember, this is in the...

00:50:05.000 It's in the dark in the 80s with a big monster-sized camcorder, and you've got a bright light jumping around.

00:50:11.000 But yeah, I mean, we did video of it, but by today's standards, it's...

00:50:17.000 But is your video specifically available, the video that you took?

00:50:20.000 Well, George Knapp has it.

00:50:23.000 Is it online?

00:50:24.000 I have no idea.

00:50:25.000 Jeremy?

00:50:25.000 Yeah, I show clips of it in my film.

00:50:27.000 It's online.

00:50:28.000 And someone did a deep analysis of it.

00:50:30.000 It was interesting to take a look at how...

00:50:33.000 Pull this microphone up to your face.

00:50:34.000 Cut about a fist from your face.

00:50:36.000 You know, to see how his video looks now, but as far as video evidence, I mean, we are talking 80s camp, where the most important thing is the human story here.

00:50:45.000 Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other.

00:50:50.000 They don't all talk.

00:50:52.000 They all agree on one thing.

00:50:53.000 They saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Balbazar said, and remember, this is 17, 15, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose Lake, and they all agree.

00:51:06.000 They saw something that night they had never seen before and they've never seen since right when he said it.

00:51:11.000 So that's one of the six things where I'm like, how did he know?

00:51:15.000 You can dismiss him.

00:51:16.000 I tried to dismiss it.

00:51:17.000 But some things we can't get around.

00:51:19.000 And there's about five or six of them.

00:51:21.000 How did he know about those?

00:51:22.000 If Jamie wants to find that video right now, what would he look under?

00:51:25.000 Bob Lazar, UFO, S4, Area 51. Just kind of like that.

00:51:32.000 So it's like the S4, UFO video, Bob Lazar.

00:51:35.000 And a guy does an analysis, but you're analyzing these 80s videos.

00:51:40.000 Right.

00:51:41.000 From the very beginning, Bob never said, I have proof of my story and I'm going to tell the world.

00:51:46.000 He said at the very beginning, I cannot prove my story.

00:51:49.000 That's not why I'm telling this.

00:51:52.000 George Knapp convinced him to tell people and he lived through it.

00:51:55.000 And I didn't believe it either until I talked with George.

00:51:59.000 Okay.

00:51:59.000 So you filmed this test flight, one test flight, and then you get caught.

00:52:06.000 Actually, it was, I think, the third time, because we went out there the first time.

00:52:13.000 Everybody saw it.

00:52:14.000 Everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers, and everybody had a lot to say about it.

00:52:20.000 The maneuvers that I've seen, I've seen the video.

00:52:23.000 I don't think there's something we have now that does that.

00:52:26.000 No.

00:52:26.000 In terms of a human-piloted craft?

00:52:29.000 No.

00:52:29.000 I mean, I don't know, obviously, what the government...

00:52:31.000 No, it's impossible.

00:52:33.000 Nothing can move like that.

00:52:34.000 And remember, we didn't start filming from the very beginning.

00:52:37.000 You know, we were waiting for something, you know, to happen.

00:52:41.000 The craft took off and then came flying at us, stopped, you know, turned at a right angle, flew back.

00:52:46.000 And then, you know, after it did some, you know, amazing stuff, we were like, to get the camera.

00:52:50.000 And then we started filming.

00:52:51.000 So it doesn't have all of it on there.

00:52:53.000 It just has some...

00:52:54.000 The way I describe it to my friends and they said, what does this look like?

00:52:57.000 I said, take a laser pointer.

00:52:59.000 And then have a wall and then move it around the wall.

00:53:01.000 Like, you know how it moves around the wall?

00:53:03.000 It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any way by the atmosphere.

00:53:10.000 That's what it looks like.

00:53:11.000 You're essentially separated from reality.

00:53:13.000 As crazy as that sounds, being in case it's own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going to affect it.

00:53:22.000 And, you know, this is...

00:53:25.000 This is how some of those recent sightings of Commander David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO, I mean he describes exactly, the thing operates exactly the way I was describing.

00:53:36.000 That's why he was interested to talk to me.

00:53:40.000 But we saw this and You know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it.

00:53:46.000 We should try it again the next test flight day.

00:53:48.000 So this became a thing to do.

00:53:51.000 And I think it was on the third time that we got caught.

00:53:55.000 I mean, we started becoming a little careless.

00:53:58.000 I think we took a motorhome out there. 1.00

00:54:01.000 You know, I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly imagine. 0.99

00:54:05.000 Yeah, it was ridiculous. 1.00

00:54:07.000 Again, you're in your 20s. 0.98

00:54:09.000 Yeah.

00:54:09.000 And, you know, what was funny was we went out there and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning on the front of a vehicle.

00:54:19.000 And just for some reason, we just started talking shit. 0.98

00:54:24.000 Like, well, I hope they realize that... 0.99

00:54:29.000 I don't remember what we were saying, but, you know, something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that.

00:54:39.000 And then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light.

00:54:45.000 Fall on the ground and roll to us.

00:54:47.000 And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black, you can't see your hand in front of your face, there were a bunch of guards standing right out there and they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall looking at us, listening to us, and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled over to us and you could see the green screen.

00:55:04.000 We turn the lights on and all these guys are there.

00:55:07.000 So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught as we should have.

00:55:13.000 So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens? 0.98

00:55:16.000 Well, I went in for debriefing.

00:55:18.000 The following day, I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site.

00:55:28.000 And this is when they brought out the transcript of the phone call with my wife.

00:55:36.000 And, you know, they sat me down and we said, you know, when we meant to keep this secret, we meant you can't tell your friends, right?

00:55:43.000 You know, and it just being sarcastic and trying to...

00:55:47.000 And then they got real serious.

00:55:50.000 But this is where they...

00:55:52.000 You know, took the transcript out and were reading me what my wife and, you know, our friend were talking about.

00:56:01.000 And it was a hard time.

00:56:04.000 So what happens from there?

00:56:08.000 What do they do with you?

00:56:09.000 Why don't they arrest you?

00:56:10.000 I don't know.

00:56:11.000 I don't know why.

00:56:13.000 I'm not sure exactly they knew what to do.

00:56:16.000 But they did let me go that night.

00:56:18.000 And I went home.

00:56:20.000 And this is kind of when the most stressful part started.

00:56:24.000 Because you're realizing that you're being monitored.

00:56:26.000 Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble.

00:56:31.000 And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point.

00:56:47.000 So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, Tells it, puts it online, and makes everybody aware of it, and that's how I found out about it.

00:56:58.000 Yeah, to make a long story short.

00:57:01.000 What happens...

00:57:02.000 Yeah, to really make a long story short.

00:57:03.000 What happens from there on?

00:57:05.000 I mean, do they contact you and say, Hey, Bob, it's probably a good idea if you shut up. 0.79

00:57:12.000 Oh. 0.99

00:57:13.000 Do they try to label you as crazy?

00:57:15.000 Was there...

00:57:17.000 Boy, there were a lot of things that happened between that point.

00:57:23.000 I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story.

00:57:28.000 We'd have to go back to Los Alamos and, well, I really don't want to talk about that.

00:57:35.000 The top secret weapons stuff that you were working on.

00:57:40.000 No, I'm talking about the 115. Mm-hmm. 1.00

00:57:46.000 Well, I don't know.

00:57:47.000 I have to think about how I... What is the problem?

00:57:52.000 I don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting something, so I just have to dance around a couple.

00:57:59.000 He was rated just during the filming of the movie.

00:58:02.000 Yeah, the movie's great, by the way.

00:58:04.000 Thanks, Joe.

00:58:04.000 And it's on Netflix right now, if anybody wants to check it out.

00:58:08.000 And if you're one of those people like me, who, you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs. 0.99

00:58:14.000 I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of shit. 1.00

00:58:21.000 And not just full of shit, they're childishly delirious. 0.99

00:58:26.000 Like the way they talk about things, I mean there's so many people that I'm in contact, they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong. 1.00

00:58:37.000 And you're like, okay.

00:58:38.000 This is one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show.

00:58:40.000 I'm sure.

00:58:42.000 One of them.

00:58:43.000 I mean, it's no joke.

00:58:46.000 We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn, and in some ways I can relate to some of these people. 0.99

00:58:54.000 Maybe some of them did really have some kind of experience or saw something, and all their friends think they're crazy, but hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of shit, so I've got to talk to him. 0.91

00:59:08.000 And so most of the correspondence I get are people trying to get a hold of me going, Bob, you've got to listen to me. 0.87

00:59:14.000 I'm coming to talk to you.

00:59:16.000 I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever. 0.99

00:59:19.000 But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy and they're frightening. 0.99

00:59:24.000 There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world. 0.99

00:59:28.000 There's a lot of people that have real issues.

00:59:30.000 Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that We have to look at what's going on now and understand.

00:59:38.000 I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now.

00:59:42.000 And to not really understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years.

00:59:53.000 The biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case that came out, I've heard people even on the show say, oh, there's a glitch in the radar.

01:00:01.000 That's a data poor perspective.

01:00:04.000 You just don't know yet what's really going on.

01:00:06.000 Commander Fravor, I was able to get the interview with him to talk with him way before it became public.

01:00:11.000 I got that from him.

01:00:13.000 He saw it.

01:00:14.000 Other pilots saw it.

01:00:15.000 This is a big thing that's going on right now.

01:00:18.000 They had more sightings on the East Coast recently, cubes with spherical oars.

01:00:23.000 These are not aerodynamic and these are the people we trust to defend us on 9-11.

01:00:27.000 Commander Fair protected Los Angeles on 9-11.

01:00:29.000 So we trust them, but they're not trained observers.

01:00:34.000 Radar.

01:00:34.000 Individuals see these things.

01:00:35.000 And the big one, just to throw it down so we can consider a story a little differently, there's more depth to it.

01:00:40.000 The big one is the United States government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon.

01:00:47.000 That program was called AATIP, was called OSAP. That's the mother program.

01:00:55.000 George Knapp got that out.

01:00:57.000 They announced through the New York Times about AATIP. But OSAP, these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Applications Program, who cares?

01:01:05.000 That was the mother program. 0.95

01:01:07.000 So they've admitted, we didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book.

01:01:11.000 We don't think it's crazy.

01:01:12.000 We actually want to reverse engineer the technology.

01:01:14.000 That's why on your other show, you said, what's this AAV thing?

01:01:18.000 It's like, they're making up another UFO name.

01:01:20.000 Well, hold on.

01:01:20.000 There's a reason.

01:01:21.000 Because in the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released, that everybody said was fake till now they know is real, We're good to go.

01:01:49.000 What are you talking about?

01:01:50.000 Hillary Clinton informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel.

01:01:55.000 Oh, Jimmy, we don't call them UFOs anymore.

01:01:58.000 We call them UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon.

01:02:03.000 The Clintons are very into the UFO topic.

01:02:06.000 Senator Reid, he's done a lot for the subject, the study of it.

01:02:11.000 So she informed the public so they could look for the right term.

01:02:14.000 So these terms are important because the DIA in those documents, they've been calling them AAVs for quite some time now.

01:02:21.000 And they changed the name to anomalous.

01:02:24.000 No, that's kind of a misnome.

01:02:26.000 So...

01:02:28.000 They always mess around with things, but it's actually advanced.

01:02:31.000 Right, but when they're describing it in the news, they were calling it anomalous aerospace vehicles.

01:02:35.000 Totally.

01:02:36.000 And that's cool.

01:02:36.000 They were also saying anomalous aerospace threats, A-A-T, right?

01:02:41.000 Because they want the sense of a threat.

01:02:43.000 So my point is...

01:02:44.000 If people don't know this now and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar.

01:02:56.000 That's why we know it's aerospace.

01:02:58.000 They dropped from 80,000 feet.

01:02:59.000 But guess what?

01:03:00.000 That's the top scope of the SPY-1 radar is 80,000 feet.

01:03:04.000 So the radar system they were using, it was coming from above that.

01:03:08.000 So my point is this.

01:03:10.000 If you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about.

01:03:18.000 I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic.

01:03:21.000 I met you first when you got totally upset with the UFO topic.

01:03:24.000 It's the people.

01:03:25.000 When?

01:03:26.000 When you're doing your… Hold this, Mike.

01:03:28.000 I'm sorry, man.

01:03:29.000 When you're doing your show, you know, the Joe Rogan questions everything, I could see how frustrating it is.

01:03:36.000 Trust me, I have been frustrated to hell.

01:03:38.000 Luckily, my mentor is George Knapp, and he's taught me the pitfalls as I went through it.

01:03:43.000 My whole point in this rant right here...

01:03:45.000 It's just that we have to now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts, not someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch.

01:03:53.000 They're not.

01:03:54.000 And so if you don't know that, you just don't have the information yet.

01:03:58.000 Well, not just that, knowing the facts as we know them in 2019, not in 1988. Absolutely.

01:04:03.000 And so what has he said that has come true?

01:04:06.000 He's totally unimpressed with it, right?

01:04:08.000 What has he said that's come true?

01:04:09.000 So I was like, Bob, they've announced gravity as a wave.

01:04:13.000 You were right, man.

01:04:14.000 You're vindicated.

01:04:15.000 And he looks at me and he's like, well, if you think about it, Jeremy, I had like a 50-50 chance.

01:04:19.000 He was not very impressed, right?

01:04:22.000 When did they announce gravity as a wave?

01:04:25.000 So they detected, in a sense, they detected gravity waves.

01:04:28.000 Who is they?

01:04:30.000 You might know more.

01:04:31.000 There's two black holes that were colliding, and that's how they were able to detect...

01:04:34.000 Yeah, somebody built...

01:04:35.000 I don't know which group it was or what part of the government.

01:04:38.000 That's what Google's for.

01:04:40.000 Yeah.

01:04:40.000 But they built a gigantic gravity wave detector, and pretty much...

01:04:47.000 That there are such things as gravity waves.

01:04:50.000 First observation of gravitational waves, it says it was in 2016. Okay, the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th of September 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11th of February 2016. Previously,

01:05:08.000 gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems.

01:05:16.000 Dante!

01:05:17.000 The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched the predictions of general relativity for a gravitational wave.

01:05:32.000 Emanating from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole.

01:05:47.000 Well, I mean, in the 80s, the predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons, theoretical particles.

01:05:58.000 But they're not.

01:06:00.000 They're waves.

01:06:00.000 They're not particles.

01:06:01.000 So the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the moon, which is roughly one-quarter the size of the Earth, has one-sixth of the Earth's gravity.

01:06:13.000 So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass.

01:06:16.000 Right.

01:06:16.000 And remember, we can observe the effects of gravity, but we have no idea what it is.

01:06:24.000 All we can do is observe it, and we can't make it.

01:06:27.000 The only way you can make gravity is just put more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity.

01:06:32.000 But if you have a machine that makes gravity, you can pretty much do anything.

01:06:38.000 You can affect time.

01:06:40.000 You can have force fields.

01:06:42.000 All that stuff that's in science fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can make gravity.

01:06:48.000 And what we worked on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity.

01:06:52.000 I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear reactor to the Victorian era.

01:06:58.000 I love that analogy.

01:07:00.000 Because back then, that was impossible.

01:07:03.000 That was magic.

01:07:04.000 What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave.

01:07:12.000 As much as we know and as impressed as we are, as we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet, We're still, in many ways, in the adolescence of technological innovation.

01:07:25.000 Absolutely.

01:07:26.000 Absolutely.

01:07:27.000 If even adolescence.

01:07:29.000 And when you're talking about this binary star system and zeta reticuli, and who knows how much longer these things have been around than us?

01:07:38.000 Who knows what their evolutionary cycle's been?

01:07:41.000 Who knows?

01:07:42.000 We might be talking about something that's a million years more advanced than us.

01:07:46.000 Yeah.

01:07:47.000 Yeah, it could easily be.

01:07:48.000 Now, I'm not in – believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs.

01:07:52.000 I don't follow stories or, you know – Even after your experiences?

01:07:56.000 No, I'm fascinated with the technology and I – it really – it irks me like every night I go to sleep that, you know, I don't – That it was my own doing, essentially, that prevented me from continuing on in the project.

01:08:12.000 To be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me.

01:08:20.000 By the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from.

01:08:25.000 I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by.

01:08:28.000 So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing.

01:08:31.000 But George Knapp is...

01:08:33.000 I mean, he's the guy that has the context and tries to thread everything together.

01:08:38.000 And what he recently told me is he found...

01:08:42.000 I don't know, it was either documentation or people that he spoke to.

01:08:45.000 It's that the existence of this project, the project that I was on, it's something that they...

01:08:54.000 It's a big topic of conversation right now.

01:09:03.000 It's called the Wilson Memo.

01:09:05.000 You can look it up.

01:09:06.000 Admiral Wilson met with a scientist who's actually was featured in one of my films.

01:09:11.000 Everybody has been debating whether or not this document Of a conversation with a sitting admiral at the time is a real document.

01:09:21.000 It's an actual conversation that happened and this document is real.

01:09:24.000 Everybody wants to know the world is going crazy right now in the UFO world. 0.81

01:09:27.000 I'll tell you straight up right now, I'm in the position to know and it is a real document.

01:09:33.000 That it is real.

01:09:34.000 So the conversation you read in that That conversation was had.

01:09:39.000 I can't attest to every...

01:09:40.000 You're not being very clear.

01:09:41.000 Sure.

01:09:42.000 No problem.

01:09:43.000 So, there was a document that is circulating right now that is really big.

01:09:47.000 It's going around everywhere.

01:09:48.000 People are asking and wondering.

01:09:49.000 What is this document?

01:09:50.000 It's called the Wilson Memo.

01:09:52.000 It's how you can find it online.

01:09:54.000 Or the Wilson Leak.

01:09:56.000 There it is.

01:09:56.000 Jimmy's got it.

01:09:57.000 The Wilson Memorandum.

01:09:59.000 Use of Human Voluntary.

01:10:00.000 No, no, no, no.

01:10:01.000 No, that's not it.

01:10:03.000 So...

01:10:05.000 Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion, oddly enough, at special projects at EG&G. And if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling everybody right now, it's real.

01:10:16.000 And we'll see.

01:10:17.000 My history's pretty good with saying if something's real or not, right?

01:10:20.000 So here we go.

01:10:20.000 The document comes out.

01:10:22.000 They meet at EG&G Special Projects.

01:10:24.000 In 1989, they stumble into a problem.

01:10:28.000 This happens.

01:10:29.000 They put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress.

01:10:37.000 So this document kind of talks about this process.

01:10:40.000 The big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob, and one of the things it's vindicating, besides the EG&G thing, Is that private industry...

01:10:49.000 So this guy's an admiral.

01:10:50.000 And he says, I found out about your SAP, your special access program.

01:10:54.000 I need to know about it.

01:10:56.000 And he's going to a private part of industry.

01:11:00.000 And he is denied access.

01:11:02.000 And he says, you know, I should be running this program.

01:11:05.000 And they were able to deny him access.

01:11:08.000 So I think the takeaway here is, check it out.

01:11:11.000 I'm telling you that that is an actual, correct, that is a leak.

01:11:15.000 Now, everything said in that document, I don't know.

01:11:17.000 What are you talking about?

01:11:18.000 What is said in that document specifically?

01:11:19.000 It's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the search for the UFO subject, the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs.

01:11:37.000 So in this document, they talk about it.

01:11:40.000 I believe that this document, the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow, you know, one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.

01:11:48.000 He's the guy who owns Skinwalker Ranch.

01:11:50.000 No, he's not.

01:11:51.000 He was the guy that owns Skinwalker.

01:11:53.000 He used to own it.

01:11:53.000 Okay.

01:11:54.000 Yeah, he used to own it.

01:11:55.000 There's a new owner, and I interviewed him for my other film, But there's a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon.

01:12:02.000 But there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner.

01:12:08.000 Anyway, the whole point of this insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea Bob just said, that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere.

01:12:20.000 They tuck it away.

01:12:21.000 And then they bring it back out, you know, 10 years later and start working on it.

01:12:25.000 What is the limiting factor?

01:12:27.000 I think Bob should speak on this, but it's the material science.

01:12:30.000 Yeah, it's really where physics is, so I can see them doing that.

01:12:34.000 I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but I think what, you know, George uncovered is probably accurate, that, you know, we try and do what we can, and once we reach a roadblock going, we really can't figure it out, it's just...

01:12:50.000 Friggin' wait.

01:12:51.000 Put the thing away.

01:12:52.000 Wait for science to catch up.

01:12:53.000 And, you know, a decade later, let's take the project out again and see, all right, now where can we go?

01:12:58.000 But there's got to be someone who remains informed, right?

01:13:02.000 Oh, yeah.

01:13:02.000 So you've got your scientists like you and Barry.

01:13:05.000 You've got your people that you compartmentalize.

01:13:07.000 You've got these people working on this project.

01:13:08.000 Yeah, there has to be some people that know everything.

01:13:11.000 You've got security.

01:13:12.000 And then someone's going to be in the outside saying, hey, we need people to guard this building.

01:13:17.000 Don't let anybody in for 10 years.

01:13:19.000 I think a lot of that is private industry, and I think that's how they keep it.

01:13:23.000 Yeah, I think that's how they literally, because the government is just so leaky.

01:13:27.000 I think that's kind of what they're doing.

01:13:29.000 That's what the document kind of proves.

01:13:30.000 You just articulated that, that it is in control of private industry.

01:13:34.000 What private industry?

01:13:36.000 Some aerospace company, something?

01:13:38.000 I don't know.

01:13:38.000 Yeah, the admiral wouldn't name it in the car, in the car station.

01:13:42.000 So they still have these things, supposedly.

01:13:46.000 Right.

01:13:48.000 I would guess.

01:13:49.000 I mean, I don't have any information on it at all.

01:13:51.000 Have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they got them?

01:13:59.000 No, but something must have been said to me from Barry.

01:14:06.000 But it was just too long ago and I can't quite remember what was said, but it just left a seed in my mind.

01:14:13.000 I think at least one of them was part of an archaeological dig.

01:14:18.000 So, it's old.

01:14:21.000 At least one of them is old.

01:14:22.000 I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archaeological dig.

01:14:28.000 Whoa.

01:14:28.000 So, that means it's not just old, it's ancient.

01:14:32.000 That'd be a great Steven Spielberg movie.

01:14:34.000 Yeah.

01:14:34.000 Right?

01:14:35.000 Yeah.

01:14:37.000 As all of it would.

01:14:38.000 Yeah, that tripped me out when he said that for the first time.

01:14:40.000 Yeah, that's a freakout right there.

01:14:42.000 Just a couple of dudes with some brushes looking for a Tyrannosaurus Rex bone to hit metal.

01:14:47.000 And when did they find it, you know, that they have nine of them?

01:14:50.000 Well, and how could we have not heard about that?

01:14:53.000 What about the guys with the brushes?

01:14:55.000 How could you uncover something like that?

01:14:57.000 Well, Joe's newspaper at home does.

01:14:59.000 I mean, they said it on that first day.

01:15:01.000 Oh, you mean the Roswell Dewey record?

01:15:02.000 Yeah, the one you told me.

01:15:03.000 Yeah, I have a cover.

01:15:04.000 What is this here, Jamie?

01:15:06.000 This is the document, but I had to do some digging to find it.

01:15:08.000 Yeah, it's just kind of...

01:15:10.000 Yeah, so this is where they meet at EG&G, and this is Admiral Wilson, and there's a lot more coming out.

01:15:14.000 Now, I want to be clear, George didn't put this out.

01:15:17.000 He didn't...

01:15:18.000 We're good to go.

01:15:40.000 The $22 million was for OSAP that was pushed through through Congress, three congressmen, right?

01:15:46.000 An astronaut.

01:15:47.000 It was pushed through.

01:15:49.000 And that's what that $22 million, by the way, they spend more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs, if it was just this program, which I think is funny.

01:15:56.000 They probably make a lot more money from it.

01:15:58.000 They probably do.

01:16:00.000 Well, you never know how it seeds into a population.

01:16:02.000 But anyway, this program, this is what was the mother program.

01:16:07.000 So it got the $22 million.

01:16:09.000 And really, it was to study Skinwalker Ranch.

01:16:11.000 Oddly enough, that $22 million all was inspired by the phenomenon they were seeing at Skinwalker Ranch.

01:16:16.000 Because the scientists, they're seeing vehicles come through like a space in the sky.

01:16:22.000 Yeah, we went there.

01:16:23.000 I went there with Duncan.

01:16:25.000 We interviewed... 1.00

01:16:26.000 A bunch of people that seemed full of shit, but a couple that didn't. 1.00

01:16:29.000 It was very, very interesting. 1.00

01:16:31.000 Totally.

01:16:31.000 And if you look, I spent a lot of time in the area.

01:16:34.000 I'm not talking about those stories.

01:16:36.000 I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government, right, through Bigelow to study the ranch because they thought it was important.

01:16:42.000 And, you know, whatever, whatever.

01:16:44.000 The point is that $22 million was to study that.

01:16:46.000 Then we have ATIP, which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings, like Commander Fravers and that sort of thing.

01:16:53.000 This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the Bigelow studies, it was government funded, and then it was personally funded, and then government funded.

01:17:04.000 It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials.

01:17:16.000 They can't study it.

01:17:17.000 So that's the claim right now.

01:17:19.000 Give it some time.

01:17:20.000 Let people dig more into this.

01:17:22.000 It's fascinating, man.

01:17:24.000 So you are...

01:17:28.000 Essentially, you're kicked out, right?

01:17:32.000 You're out of this program.

01:17:33.000 You can't work with these crafts anymore.

01:17:36.000 And do they give you any threats?

01:17:39.000 Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out?

01:17:43.000 Yeah.

01:17:44.000 I mean, the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this stuff.

01:17:50.000 And, you know, he said, well, let's just get it on tape.

01:17:53.000 Should something happen, at least we have a record of it.

01:17:56.000 And...

01:17:58.000 I don't remember what the impetus was, but at some point, George wanted to air it.

01:18:03.000 And he said, you know, you make the call on it.

01:18:07.000 And look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it.

01:18:11.000 And it came down to the day where George wants to put it on the 5 o'clock news.

01:18:16.000 He said, this is important stuff.

01:18:17.000 People have to know about it.

01:18:19.000 And I thought it was too.

01:18:20.000 I thought it's kind of a crime.

01:18:22.000 I know you've got to keep the technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization. 0.96

01:18:31.000 It's a big fucking deal.

01:18:34.000 You know, probably the biggest one there ever was. 0.99

01:18:37.000 And George said, you know, today's the day we've got to put it on the news or something to that effect.

01:18:44.000 And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said, We're not doing it.

01:18:51.000 And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape, but he won because he was a bigger guy.

01:18:59.000 So he actually physically wrestled?

01:19:01.000 Well, I think it was more of a pulling match.

01:19:03.000 I don't think we ever hit the ground, but he got the tape, he put it in the player, and boom, 5 o'clock news was on.

01:19:10.000 And then I got a call after that, and they said, it was from Dennis.

01:19:14.000 They said, do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now?

01:19:17.000 And he hung up the phone.

01:19:18.000 That was the last communication I had with him.

01:19:22.000 And what has happened to you since then?

01:19:24.000 After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS. Anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had the clearances pulled.

01:19:42.000 One of them A friend, one of mine that Jeremy knows.

01:19:47.000 He's going on camera with me soon.

01:19:48.000 He'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there.

01:19:51.000 He was working up at the tonal pot test range waiting for his clearance to come through.

01:19:55.000 And, you know, they pulled that.

01:19:57.000 It became, it's like if they can't get the person that's involved, they just create a problem for everybody that surrounds them.

01:20:06.000 And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected to.

01:20:12.000 And that's an effective way of shutting someone up.

01:20:16.000 Did you feel that by coming forward and going public, they couldn't just snuff you out?

01:20:20.000 That was, I mean, that's what I was told, and George and everybody, you know, said that.

01:20:24.000 It's public, no one will touch you, and I fell for it.

01:20:33.000 Do you wish you didn't?

01:20:35.000 Yeah, sometimes.

01:20:36.000 Sometimes when it's just overstressed and people are camping on your lawn.

01:20:39.000 Yeah, but this is going to make things worse, doing this.

01:20:43.000 No, this is going to make things better.

01:20:45.000 That's what I was trying to tell him.

01:20:46.000 How is this going to make things better?

01:20:48.000 Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who not only work in the government, people that are Police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to emphasize.

01:21:06.000 Empathize and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with One of the most,

01:21:21.000 if not the most, important discovery in the history of human beings, the big question, are we alone?

01:21:29.000 It's the number one question.

01:21:31.000 There's two questions, right?

01:21:32.000 What happens when we die and are we alone?

01:21:34.000 Those are the two big questions.

01:21:36.000 And if we're not alone, And someone knows we're not alone.

01:21:41.000 And these some people who know we're not alone are these bungling sort of military folks.

01:21:48.000 Even if they weren't, it's a crime that they're not telling the rest of us.

01:21:52.000 I don't mean bungling in terms of they're incompetent.

01:21:55.000 I mean, they can't be competent.

01:21:57.000 It seems to me, to what you're describing, that no one can be competent with this technology.

01:22:02.000 Like the Victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor.

01:22:08.000 There's no way.

01:22:09.000 It's beyond us.

01:22:11.000 Why do you think they're not telling us?

01:22:12.000 Let's just make an assumption that this is true right now.

01:22:14.000 Why do you think that they're not telling us, that our government doesn't tell us?

01:22:19.000 What's your best thought?

01:22:19.000 Well, let me put it into what you do.

01:22:22.000 If I'm the president, okay, and I get this information, what do I do with this?

01:22:27.000 What do I do with this?

01:22:27.000 There's something that we don't know.

01:22:29.000 There's something we don't understand.

01:22:31.000 There's something that came from another world.

01:22:32.000 We got it tucked away in the mountains.

01:22:34.000 And I just wanted you guys to know about it.

01:22:36.000 Hey, sleep tight.

01:22:37.000 Hey, American Auto's on tonight.

01:22:39.000 Who do you think's going to win?

01:22:40.000 Yeah.

01:22:40.000 Who's going to win America's Got Talent?

01:22:41.000 That's not going to happen.

01:22:42.000 Da, da, [...

01:22:44.000 One is uncertainty, and the other one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot.

01:22:48.000 Absolutely not knowing what to tell people, because you don't really understand it yourself, even though you've got these...

01:22:52.000 Right.

01:22:53.000 What do you say?

01:22:53.000 You want to run a government?

01:22:54.000 You want to get people to pay their taxes? 0.76

01:22:57.000 But there's something else.

01:22:57.000 Yeah.

01:22:58.000 What do you say?

01:22:58.000 So you have these objects flying with impunity, right?

01:23:01.000 But you have something else.

01:23:02.000 Right.

01:23:02.000 Well, not only that, what can you say?

01:23:04.000 Like, how much do you really know?

01:23:06.000 I think it's mainly the technology.

01:23:07.000 They just want to keep the technology secret.

01:23:10.000 Because if there's...

01:23:11.000 Yeah.

01:23:12.000 Whoever gets this wins, dude.

01:23:13.000 They win.

01:23:14.000 You control the...

01:23:15.000 You literally become invincible once you master the technology.

01:23:20.000 You cannot penetrate a field like that.

01:23:23.000 So I imagine that's...

01:23:24.000 I know it's all science fiction, but science fiction turns into science fact.

01:23:28.000 If you have...

01:23:29.000 Real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you win.

01:23:34.000 You win.

01:23:35.000 You can force your will upon anybody.

01:23:37.000 And like I said, there's so much more to the story.

01:23:40.000 When I was first there, there were Russian scientists at S-4.

01:23:46.000 This was early on in the project.

01:23:48.000 So this was before Operation Paperclip became public as well, right?

01:23:51.000 I would imagine.

01:23:52.000 I don't know what the dates were.

01:23:54.000 When was that?

01:23:56.000 98, I think.

01:23:57.000 98. Yeah, I don't know the dates on our paper.

01:23:59.000 So roughly 10 years later, Operation Paperclip becomes Freedom of Information Act.

01:24:04.000 We're talking about Russia, not Germany.

01:24:05.000 We're talking about Russian scientists.

01:24:07.000 Yeah, but I mean Russian scientists, a lot of them came from Germany.

01:24:10.000 A lot of those rocket scientists that work with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists. 0.97

01:24:15.000 Got it.

01:24:16.000 So Russians got some of them. 0.98

01:24:17.000 I just know at some point there was intense cooperation with Russia.

01:24:22.000 I mean, even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and, you know, EMP tests and stuff like that.

01:24:27.000 Things we would never have discussed with them.

01:24:29.000 But at the same time, it was in the late 80s, they were involved and actually in the area at S4 with us.

01:24:37.000 So you got to communicate with these guys, or you saw them?

01:24:39.000 No, I knew they were there.

01:24:40.000 Barry would talk about the commies that were there.

01:24:43.000 The commies?

01:24:44.000 Yeah, the commies.

01:24:45.000 That was back when they were the commies, right?

01:24:48.000 Yeah, they were real commies.

01:24:49.000 Isn't that interesting?

01:24:50.000 And...

01:24:52.000 At some point, it wasn't our group, but at some point, there was a big discovery made.

01:24:58.000 And this did not happen when I was there.

01:25:01.000 It happened in between my trips to there.

01:25:03.000 And after that, apparently, they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody, and the Russians were never allowed back on the base after that.

01:25:11.000 But you don't know what that discovery was?

01:25:12.000 No.

01:25:13.000 No.

01:25:13.000 Like I said, it wasn't my group.

01:25:14.000 So one of the other groups really found out something.

01:25:18.000 But, you know, in typical American fashion, it was, alright, this is ours.

01:25:23.000 You guys get the hell out of here.

01:25:24.000 Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar?

01:25:29.000 No, nothing that I had heard.

01:25:31.000 See, that was the thing that always freaked me out, was why, if something was so superior to human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony.

01:25:40.000 Like, why would you go to the queen? 0.99

01:25:41.000 I don't give a fuck who the queen is. 0.99

01:25:42.000 I'm a human. 1.00

01:25:43.000 I'm so superior to you ants.

01:25:45.000 I don't care who you have running your hive. 0.98

01:25:47.000 I'm just going to study it.

01:25:48.000 I think it's who got it.

01:25:49.000 Who got it?

01:25:50.000 Look at the, you know, rocket technology in Germany.

01:25:53.000 But they got nine of them?

01:25:55.000 Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either.

01:25:58.000 So they were either in the same area or, you know, one had clues to where others were.

01:26:04.000 I mean, I don't know, you have to fill that in there, but you're right.

01:26:07.000 I mean, nine of them, that's a big dig if it was archaeological.

01:26:12.000 Well, one of the more recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in the ocean.

01:26:24.000 And that something literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface of the water.

01:26:43.000 Commander Fravor visually saw what looked like, similar to a cross, some object.

01:26:49.000 So it's like as if you have some coral under the water and it's breaking over.

01:26:53.000 The Tic Tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies, it's a gravity propelled system.

01:26:58.000 They saw it in the sky before they saw it in the water, right?

01:27:00.000 Yeah, so there was radar that was picking these things coming down from 80,000 feet and dropping to 50 feet in less than a second.

01:27:07.000 This is it, Jamie?

01:27:09.000 What is this?

01:27:09.000 This is actually on the news today.

01:27:10.000 There was a briefing.

01:27:11.000 So a lot of people get this confused.

01:27:13.000 Not this one then either?

01:27:14.000 No, so that is called the gimbal.

01:27:17.000 So there's three videos released by the Pentagon that are all actual.

01:27:21.000 Just play and keep the volume off.

01:27:22.000 Okay.

01:27:23.000 I would really just pay attention to the source video.

01:27:26.000 So you've got the tic-tac, which is this object that Commander Fravor saw.

01:27:30.000 Another pilot filmed it with a FLIR pod, and it goes...

01:27:33.000 But this one you see is really important to Bob's story.

01:27:36.000 The gimbal craft.

01:27:38.000 It's been recently analyzed.

01:27:40.000 It's FLIR. Not only does it...

01:27:42.000 It's definitive that it's not a conventional anything by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source.

01:27:52.000 So this object, by the way, sat stationary.

01:27:54.000 For days, if not weeks, it sat stationary.

01:27:58.000 Yeah, they found it 11 hours later, and they were saying there's no way this thing, using that kind of energy to go that fast, could just hover for 11 hours.

01:28:05.000 The amount of time.

01:28:06.000 And by the way, you're seeing a very small part of what happened that day.

01:28:10.000 This object was not alone.

01:28:12.000 And so hopefully that information comes out and we can, I mean, I wish we had video of it.

01:28:17.000 I'm sure we'd all want to see it.

01:28:19.000 But that's called the gimbal.

01:28:20.000 That was East Coast, right?

01:28:23.000 2015. West Coast, 2004, was the Tic Tac.

01:28:27.000 The disturbance on the water, Commander Fravor believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac was coming around and doing it.

01:28:35.000 With inside the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac system was causing the disturbance, but the USO, an identified submerged object that he visually saw, the whole interesting thing about that is, I would love Bob to describe it,

01:28:52.000 is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or water.

01:28:58.000 Why doesn't it matter? 1.00

01:28:58.000 I love when he talks about this shit. 1.00

01:29:01.000 Well, first of all, Commander Fravor was the F-18 pilot off the Nimitz that was sent out to find out what this stuff is. 1.00

01:29:08.000 And it wasn't just...

01:29:09.000 I got a chance to talk to him recently.

01:29:12.000 And it wasn't just a radar image.

01:29:14.000 I mean, Commander Fravor had eyes on it for over five minutes watching this thing, as four other pilots did.

01:29:21.000 So this wasn't a radar blip or anything.

01:29:23.000 I mean, these guys were watching this thing.

01:29:25.000 But...

01:29:27.000 You know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s movie.

01:29:45.000 It flies belly first.

01:29:47.000 I mean, it may set down conventionally, but it always rotates.

01:29:52.000 It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target, and then moves away at high speed.

01:29:57.000 So it would be like a car flying with the wheels forward.

01:30:00.000 Right.

01:30:01.000 I mean, it may land on the wheels, but at some point when it wants to leave, it's going to...

01:30:06.000 Flips up, points the wheels where it wants to go and takes off.

01:30:09.000 And the gimbal video, you can see the craft do the roll maneuver.

01:30:13.000 And it's really interesting.

01:30:15.000 It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on.

01:30:18.000 So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles.

01:30:30.000 Right, but they all have the same power source.

01:30:33.000 They all have the same power source.

01:30:34.000 And we're also dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's Law and you think of how things accelerate, you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are,

01:30:51.000 if not even years.

01:30:53.000 I mean, we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms, right, the way we look at the world.

01:30:58.000 I mean, they might be just superior in terms of their intellect.

01:31:03.000 They've got to be.

01:31:04.000 Maybe.

01:31:05.000 We don't know, right?

01:31:06.000 Well, the only reason I say that is because Look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then, you know, electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we came on.

01:31:22.000 You know, if this stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element, stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material, Maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with.

01:31:37.000 And the version of their steam engine, their first product, was something that operated like this.

01:31:43.000 And actually when they came to Earth to look around or whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing.

01:31:49.000 These guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward.

01:31:52.000 So who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that?

01:31:57.000 My thought was if you went back to the 1400s and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not going to see that much of a difference technologically.

01:32:06.000 Right.

01:32:07.000 If you go from 2,000 to 3,000, I assume there's going to be a radical change.

01:32:12.000 Right.

01:32:12.000 Well, yeah, the delta, the rate of change is magnificently higher than it used to be.

01:32:19.000 Right.

01:32:20.000 So if you think about what they had in 1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019, just logically, it seems like they would advance.

01:32:32.000 I would think so.

01:32:34.000 The only question is, like, are they living?

01:32:38.000 Is that a living thing in terms of, like, a biological thing?

01:32:42.000 Or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like we are working on right now?

01:32:48.000 I mean, we're in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient beings, artificial intelligence.

01:32:54.000 There's silicon-based life forms that they're essentially trying to create.

01:32:59.000 Was it Boston Dynamics at the company?

01:33:01.000 Robots, yeah.

01:33:03.000 You can make machines out of flesh, right?

01:33:05.000 So a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, you know, that's what a lot of people think those, like, gray things are, you know, that people call the grays.

01:33:12.000 Yeah.

01:33:12.000 Is like, they were like, they're machines printed from flesh.

01:33:16.000 So what you're saying is like, not so far off.

01:33:19.000 Well, they could just be synthetic life.

01:33:20.000 They don't even need to be, you know, machines.

01:33:23.000 Well, they seem to have no sex organs. 0.88

01:33:25.000 The way they're described by people that have had interactions with them, assuming these people aren't liars or crazy or whatever. 0.96

01:33:30.000 Right.

01:33:39.000 I mean, if you look at...

01:33:42.000 You see Australopithecus or depictions of, you know, ancient hominids, and then you go to human beings.

01:33:48.000 One of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies.

01:33:50.000 Well, you see a clear progression of evolution, too, where something like that, I would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task.

01:34:01.000 There's no reproductive organs, so, I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of, you know, physical evolution.

01:34:07.000 Right.

01:34:08.000 Well, that's also our bottleneck, right?

01:34:09.000 Our bottleneck is our biological imperative.

01:34:12.000 The need to breed, emotions, fear, anxiety, all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce.

01:34:22.000 I mean, that's essentially what it is.

01:34:24.000 There are human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient, artificial life.

01:34:31.000 Some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have.

01:34:35.000 By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing.

01:34:39.000 I always thought of flying saucers when I heard Bob Lazar talk about flying saucer, right?

01:34:43.000 But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes, like none of them are alike.

01:34:49.000 You know, there are the saucers, but you got cigar shaped, you got, you know, the top hat shaped, you have orbs.

01:34:54.000 Why?

01:34:55.000 Maybe they're serving different purposes.

01:34:57.000 They're doing different things like we'd use different tools.

01:35:00.000 And I want to be clear, the reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, a sixth man to walk on the moon, last guy to film him before he died, right?

01:35:10.000 That's how I know I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else.

01:35:13.000 I know because of Dr. Mitchell.

01:35:15.000 And he said the same thing.

01:35:16.000 Maybe these things are performing different tasks, you know?

01:35:21.000 Well, they seem, if you think about what an alien is in terms of our...

01:35:26.000 I think?

01:35:47.000 And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression, our lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence, and we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have.

01:36:05.000 If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world.

01:36:17.000 You know, that one day we...

01:36:19.000 Okay, I'll buy this.

01:36:20.000 Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant.

01:36:22.000 And that quote has always been one of my favorites.

01:36:24.000 Because, okay, what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating?

01:36:28.000 We're constantly looking for...

01:36:30.000 We're good to go.

01:36:33.000 We're good to go.

01:36:50.000 100% towards technological innovation.

01:36:52.000 If you looked at this species from afar, and if you weren't a part of it, you would say, what does this species do?

01:36:58.000 Oh, they make things.

01:36:59.000 They make things better every year. 0.99

01:37:01.000 Beehives are the same fucking thing that you see 10 years ago. 1.00

01:37:04.000 You go by, you see a beehive, it's amazing, it's cool, but they're the same fucking thing. 0.99

01:37:07.000 They figured out how to do it, they make a beehive. 0.99

01:37:09.000 We don't do that.

01:37:10.000 We make better things.

01:37:12.000 What would you do?

01:37:12.000 Constantly.

01:37:13.000 And at some point, I think that technology is going to fuse with us.

01:37:16.000 Yes.

01:37:17.000 And we're going to become… It's already happening.

01:37:18.000 Yeah.

01:37:19.000 Elon Musk talked about it on my podcast that we are cyborgs.

01:37:21.000 You just carry it in your pocket.

01:37:22.000 It's a phone.

01:37:23.000 It answers any question you want.

01:37:25.000 You can talk to it.

01:37:26.000 It will give you the answers instantaneously.

01:37:28.000 It navigates you.

01:37:30.000 It has all your phone numbers in it.

01:37:31.000 It has all your contacts.

01:37:32.000 You can get a hold of people, people listening to you through it.

01:37:35.000 It's connecting us in ways even involuntarily.

01:37:37.000 Haptics, that kind of thing.

01:37:39.000 It's also getting on your wrist.

01:37:40.000 How many people have iWatches, Apple Watches?

01:37:43.000 Right, and that's only because we can't integrate them yet.

01:37:46.000 But you know that point is coming.

01:37:47.000 100%.

01:37:48.000 Yeah, I didn't joke about it last night, but I have a bit about it that I do.

01:37:52.000 About the integration between humans and technology.

01:37:54.000 What would you do if you were a hyper-intelligence, right?

01:37:58.000 Would you do the work yourself?

01:37:59.000 Or would you create some cool things called like humans to do it for you? 0.68

01:38:03.000 Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you?

01:38:07.000 If you're a hyper-intelligence that has kind of changed like you've described, you'd probably create workers, right?

01:38:13.000 Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory.

01:38:16.000 I'm not talking about conspiracy.

01:38:17.000 But it is a kind of a conspiracy.

01:38:18.000 I'm asking you.

01:38:19.000 Well, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily that.

01:38:22.000 I mean, you could look at it that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it.

01:38:26.000 The way I would look at it is like there's obviously a progression going on, a biological progression.

01:38:30.000 There's some sort of an integration with technology.

01:38:33.000 There's some sort of imperative, this need for technological innovation.

01:38:37.000 It's inescapable.

01:38:38.000 Everyone has it.

01:38:39.000 And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way, because so many people work so hard to get new things.

01:38:46.000 God, that seems so illogical and preposterous, and it makes people unhappy, and depression's on the rise, but nobody seems to be able to stop it.

01:38:52.000 Why is that?

01:38:53.000 Well, maybe it's because we are the electronic caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly.

01:39:00.000 Maybe that's what we're doing.

01:39:01.000 That could very well be.

01:39:02.000 What our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon.

01:39:06.000 We don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it.

01:39:09.000 Do you think a caterpillar is a whale?

01:39:10.000 Hey, caterpillar, what are you doing?

01:39:11.000 Man, I'm doing my thing.

01:39:13.000 It's my job.

01:39:14.000 I have to make a cocoon.

01:39:15.000 Then I'm going to become a butterfly.

01:39:16.000 This could be a natural part of evolution.

01:39:17.000 It could be.

01:39:18.000 That we're just supposed to do this.

01:39:20.000 Exactly.

01:39:20.000 And make the jump to some sort of mechanized, non-biological.

01:39:25.000 Have you ever seen an orangutan that is fishing with a spear?

01:39:30.000 No.

01:39:30.000 They've figured out how to fish with spears.

01:39:34.000 There's primatologists.

01:39:37.000 Wait, without somebody showing them how to fish?

01:39:39.000 No, they've imitated human beings doing it.

01:39:41.000 And now they do it, but they do it independently.

01:39:44.000 They're not trained orangutans.

01:39:46.000 They're wild orangutans.

01:39:47.000 Look at that.

01:39:49.000 That's impressive.

01:39:51.000 That's impressive.

01:39:52.000 Well, there's these primatologists.

01:39:54.000 I guess you would call them primatologists?

01:39:56.000 That's a term?

01:39:56.000 That's a great term.

01:39:57.000 Biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age.

01:40:05.000 That they've currently entered the Stone Age.

01:40:07.000 Like, they're not staying.

01:40:09.000 What they were 100,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago.

01:40:13.000 But they're actively using tools and they're experimenting with different ways to use those tools.

01:40:19.000 And then they're making tools out of stone.

01:40:21.000 They're making tools out of sticks and they're using them.

01:40:24.000 Well, this might just be what happens.

01:40:27.000 This might just be what happens.

01:40:30.000 I mean, why else? 0.99

01:40:31.000 Why the fuck do we work so hard? 0.98

01:40:33.000 I mean, I was driving to L.A. this morning. 0.99

01:40:36.000 I had a doctor's appointment, so I was on the 405 at 8 in the morning.

01:40:40.000 Like, Jesus Christ!

01:40:41.000 Like, this is so crazy!

01:40:42.000 When you're on the 405 in L.A. at 8 o'clock in the morning, you see literally a million cars.

01:40:46.000 Yeah, red light.

01:40:47.000 Everywhere you go, it's people.

01:40:49.000 And also, I'm in a Tesla, so I have it on autopilot.

01:40:53.000 So I'm there sitting, I'm listening to a podcast.

01:40:55.000 I barely have my hand on the wheel. 0.99

01:40:57.000 I'm not touching shit. 0.99

01:40:58.000 This car is driving me along. 0.99

01:41:00.000 I'm not even doing anything.

01:41:01.000 I'm just hanging out.

01:41:03.000 It's so much less stress, by the way, to do it that way.

01:41:05.000 So it encourages you to innovate.

01:41:07.000 It encourages you to embrace this new technology.

01:41:11.000 I got this giant screen.

01:41:12.000 It's showing me the navigation in front of me.

01:41:14.000 Oh, I'll be there five minutes early.

01:41:16.000 Excellent.

01:41:16.000 And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly.

01:41:19.000 It's Bluetooth streaming from my phone. 0.99

01:41:22.000 And I pulled that podcast, which came out today, out of the fucking sky. 0.98

01:41:26.000 And I'm listening to it. 0.98

01:41:27.000 And I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving on my way to the doctor's office.

01:41:31.000 This is irresistible stuff.

01:41:32.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:41:33.000 It's different than your Walkman, you know, back in the day.

01:41:35.000 It is irresistible.

01:41:36.000 It is irresistible.

01:41:37.000 It's frighteningly irresistible.

01:41:39.000 But is it frightening?

01:41:40.000 I mean, if you were a monkey, right? 0.99

01:41:42.000 If you were an Australopithecus, would you go, man, I don't want to fucking be a person and live in a house? 1.00

01:41:47.000 That's bullshit. 1.00

01:41:48.000 I like just swinging around on trees. 1.00

01:41:50.000 I like running from jaguars.

01:41:52.000 This is life.

01:41:53.000 Guys, life is running from crocodiles. 1.00

01:41:55.000 It's not living in a fucking suburban community. 1.00

01:41:56.000 No, there's probably some that are like that. 0.99

01:41:58.000 Yeah, I don't think so.

01:41:59.000 I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it.

01:42:02.000 We're going to embrace it the same way you embrace cell phones, the same way you embrace television.

01:42:06.000 There's going to be a few holdouts.

01:42:08.000 I don't even have an email address, man.

01:42:10.000 There's a few and far between. 0.99

01:42:12.000 Good luck with that, fuckface. 1.00

01:42:13.000 Go move to the woods, Ted Kaczynski. 1.00

01:42:14.000 Yeah, I was just going to throw Ted Kaczynski in there.

01:42:17.000 Ted Kaczynski was right.

01:42:18.000 This is something that I think about sometimes when I get really high.

01:42:21.000 That Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies.

01:42:25.000 This has been proven. 1.00

01:42:26.000 Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking brain when he was at Harvard. 0.99

01:42:30.000 And then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to make enough money so that he could... 0.99

01:42:35.000 Just implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology.

01:42:42.000 He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way.

01:42:46.000 This is something my friend just called me about.

01:42:48.000 So there's like this private library and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university and he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it.

01:42:58.000 I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe.

01:43:01.000 I want to be very careful with that word, conspiracy theorist.

01:43:04.000 What I was saying to you was, we terraform our Earth, right?

01:43:08.000 We terraform.

01:43:09.000 We change the environment.

01:43:10.000 We do all this innovation.

01:43:12.000 What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done?

01:43:15.000 I'm not saying it is.

01:43:16.000 I'm saying, what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level?

01:43:22.000 You mean like aliens coming down doing that to humans?

01:43:24.000 Well, I'm telling you that there is something here.

01:43:27.000 There's a fact.

01:43:28.000 You know, there's something.

01:43:29.000 They're a craft.

01:43:30.000 They're here.

01:43:31.000 They're not ours.

01:43:31.000 They're here.

01:43:32.000 So, the question is, what is that about?

01:43:35.000 And I'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology and terrifying.

01:43:39.000 It's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps, and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us, and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there's steps that happen.

01:43:52.000 I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization, and that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach We're in this warring, polluting, pillaging civilization.

01:44:09.000 We're awesome in a lot of ways.

01:44:11.000 But in that way, we're not.

01:44:13.000 We're children that have immense power.

01:44:16.000 The other thing is, you're using the immense power that other people have created.

01:44:21.000 Even when you're driving a car and you're stomping on the gas like, woo! 1.00

01:44:24.000 You didn't invent the fucking engine. 0.99

01:44:26.000 You didn't invent tires. 0.99

01:44:28.000 There's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use it.

01:44:39.000 Like a person with a gun.

01:44:40.000 I'm just going to bang, bang, bang people. 0.50

01:44:42.000 You didn't invent a gun. 0.99

01:44:44.000 Without the intellect to craft and engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have paper or you have Bitcoin or you have whatever the fuck you're using. 0.98

01:44:56.000 You're using a credit card. 0.83

01:44:57.000 Now you have almost no responsibility.

01:45:00.000 You could just flippantly use these things, which is why we were very childlike in our actions.

01:45:08.000 We haven't had to earn the responsibility.

01:45:11.000 We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have, and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent Ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things.

01:45:24.000 And then they've all put them together.

01:45:26.000 And then what's the reason to put them together?

01:45:28.000 To profit.

01:45:29.000 Well, what's the reason to profit?

01:45:30.000 Well, why are you doing this?

01:45:31.000 So you can buy more things.

01:45:32.000 Well, what are we doing?

01:45:33.000 What are we doing?

01:45:34.000 We're making better things.

01:45:36.000 That's what we do.

01:45:37.000 That's all we do.

01:45:37.000 That's all we do is make better things.

01:45:39.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:45:39.000 Why the fuck do we need oil? 0.98

01:45:40.000 Why do we need oil? 1.00

01:45:41.000 Why can't we just burn wood and stay home?

01:45:43.000 Why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard? 1.00

01:45:46.000 Why can't we do it? 0.99

01:45:47.000 Well, we fucking can. 0.98

01:45:48.000 We certainly can. 0.99

01:45:49.000 People do do it.

01:45:50.000 But we decide to make that almost impossible.

01:45:52.000 Our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed.

01:45:59.000 This is what L.A. is.

01:46:00.000 L.A. is 20 million people with hard surfaces, as many hard surfaces as you can. 0.98

01:46:05.000 Boy, if you've got an acre backyard in L.A., holy shit, look at all that grain. 0.98

01:46:09.000 This is amazing. 0.99

01:46:10.000 Well, no, that's the fucking earth coming through this weird sort of creation that we've put on top of the earth. 0.97

01:46:17.000 But the goal is, like New York City, there's none of it, right? 0.99

01:46:20.000 You've got Central Park and then you've just got human shit, stacked up, no one's growing anything. 0.99

01:46:26.000 And then constant work. 0.99

01:46:27.000 Everyone's up early.

01:46:29.000 Go, go, go.

01:46:30.000 Innovate.

01:46:31.000 Progress.

01:46:32.000 Make that money so you can buy more things. 0.99

01:46:34.000 And every year, hey Apple, where's this fucking new phone? 0.99

01:46:37.000 As if your phone isn't good enough. 0.99

01:46:40.000 Your phone's taking pictures and videos and people are calling you and you've got applications to tell you which way the wind's blowing.

01:46:47.000 That's not good enough.

01:46:48.000 A blink of an eye.

01:46:50.000 It's all gone, though, that, you know, like 10,000 years and the Hoover Dam goes or whatever, you know, Mount Rushmore disintegrates.

01:46:56.000 So it's amazing because we have created that and everything's trying to spring up through that.

01:47:00.000 We keep it in maintenance down, but we're a blink, man.

01:47:03.000 Something hits.

01:47:04.000 But we don't think that way.

01:47:05.000 You think in terms of your own life, right?

01:47:08.000 You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now.

01:47:12.000 We are, in many ways, this combination of this weird, primitive, ape-like thing with The ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique.

01:47:25.000 On top of that, with existential angst and fear.

01:47:28.000 So what do you do with that? 0.99

01:47:29.000 We fucking water it down with antidepressants. 1.00

01:47:32.000 Give these fucking people some shit that keeps them moving. 1.00

01:47:34.000 They're worried about the future. 1.00

01:47:36.000 They're trying to figure out what reality is. 0.99

01:47:37.000 You're on a goddamn convertible spaceship, spinning a thousand miles an hour, hurling through infinity. 0.99

01:47:43.000 There's no meaning to this thing. 1.00

01:47:44.000 Just keep making shit. 0.99

01:47:46.000 Keep making stuff. 0.99

01:47:47.000 And then one day, they're going to be able to hit that switch, and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology.

01:47:57.000 And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are, that you're observing.

01:48:04.000 I'm not observing them, but yeah.

01:48:06.000 Are you implying that they're us?

01:48:08.000 I don't think they are us, but I think they are what happens when things keep going.

01:48:14.000 It's not us, just like we're not monkeys, right?

01:48:17.000 I'm not a chimp.

01:48:19.000 Oh, that'd be cool.

01:48:20.000 They're from here, is your idea? 0.94

01:48:22.000 No.

01:48:23.000 No, that this is what happens all over the universe.

01:48:25.000 Yes.

01:48:26.000 Yeah, totally.

01:48:26.000 That this is what happens.

01:48:27.000 Look, here's the thing.

01:48:28.000 You know, I went to see Brian Cox's, he has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with high-resolution depictions of the cosmos.

01:48:42.000 And one of the most mind-blowing things...

01:48:45.000 Was he has this large-scale image of the universe, and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe, and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions. 0.91

01:48:56.000 And it's fucking incredible.

01:48:58.000 But what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it, even at, you know, you're obviously looking at... 0.98

01:49:18.000 Yeah, homogenous all too, yeah.

01:49:23.000 So, Mike, if we see uniformity in that form, in terms of the distance between galaxies, so many galaxies, it's so similar.

01:49:31.000 They might vary slightly, and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right?

01:49:35.000 But there's so much uniformity.

01:49:38.000 Why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere?

01:49:42.000 And that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar, you do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems.

01:49:49.000 But there's also some speculation that Earth, that our solar system one time was a binary star system.

01:49:55.000 Right?

01:49:55.000 I mean, that's one of the speculations about that object that they find outside the Kuiper belt that they think is ten times larger than Earth.

01:50:02.000 They think it might have been at one point in time a star.

01:50:05.000 But this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that has its same implications biologically?

01:50:12.000 That there's some sort of a biological uniformity, and that this happens, given the right sets of circumstances?

01:50:19.000 Yeah, it could be.

01:50:19.000 You should tell him some of the stuff that you've read that you don't know is true.

01:50:23.000 I mean, if the stuff was true about the propulsion stuff, I mean, anyway.

01:50:28.000 Well, what have you read?

01:50:29.000 What you saw, too.

01:50:31.000 What are you talking about?

01:50:34.000 Spill the beans, Bob.

01:50:36.000 I've got to poke the bear here.

01:50:37.000 Get some more liquor in you.

01:50:40.000 Well, I mean, again, the only thing I could verify was what I had my hands on.

01:50:49.000 There was talk of weapon systems.

01:50:53.000 There were different projects.

01:50:55.000 Project Galileo, Project Sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the craft.

01:51:00.000 Project Looking Glass had to do with time, any effects of time in the craft.

01:51:05.000 Now, I don't think...

01:51:06.000 We're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction, but we're talking about, you know, small distortions, intentional distortions of time and how that can be used, you know, as a...

01:51:20.000 Not as a...

01:51:20.000 Well, it was part of a weapon program.

01:51:22.000 How were you informed in this?

01:51:23.000 These, again, were just those small briefings that I read.

01:51:27.000 But, again, I don't really like to talk about those because I don't have any information on them, and it was just, you know, small briefings.

01:51:34.000 But you told Commander Fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation...

01:51:39.000 Well, it could be, because gravity affects time.

01:51:42.000 You know, space-time, I'm sure you've heard of that.

01:51:44.000 And, you know, what...

01:51:48.000 What Commander Fraber saw as he was in the F-18 approaching it, he described it as a ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth.

01:51:57.000 It was moving that fast.

01:51:59.000 Now, obviously, if there's anything inside there, it's going to be battered to hell.

01:52:03.000 But, you know, my point was, was that, well, one of two things.

01:52:08.000 Either there's a gravitational envelope in there which negates any inertia effects, or You are seeing through a gravity distortion field.

01:52:19.000 So, you know, just like you're looking at a hot highway and you see, you know, an optical distortion going through there.

01:52:27.000 Well, the same thing happens in gravity.

01:52:29.000 And the craft may not actually be moving like that.

01:52:31.000 It may just look like it.

01:52:33.000 Because you're seeing, you can only see it through the field.

01:52:36.000 So it may be making much more gentle moves.

01:52:39.000 I'm not saying that's it, but it has to be one of the two.

01:52:44.000 And the thing shows up 60 miles away.

01:52:47.000 They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after it left Commander Fravor, but it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away.

01:52:57.000 And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends up there.

01:53:03.000 So it's going a mile a second?

01:53:05.000 No.

01:53:06.000 I think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds.

01:53:09.000 Yeah, it could have been there instantly, but...

01:53:11.000 Yeah, we don't know.

01:53:13.000 Nobody knows.

01:53:14.000 That's the whole thing.

01:53:15.000 Oh, so it cycles?

01:53:16.000 Like radar cycles?

01:53:17.000 Yeah, it doesn't sweep, but I mean, it scans.

01:53:21.000 It's a planar array, so it just, you know, scans around it random places.

01:53:26.000 That's the spy one does the really cool...

01:53:27.000 Yeah, it doesn't do the whole loop anymore.

01:53:30.000 Right, the point is, though, that the craft moved to his next location before he knew where his next location was going to be.

01:53:39.000 Jesus.

01:53:40.000 And that's, I mean, that's well documented.

01:53:44.000 So that's a pretty shocking piece of information.

01:53:48.000 What's fascinating to me, too, is that you were discussing this, the way this reactor worked, and that these things were not really connected to No, nothing is connected.

01:54:00.000 There's no wiring at all.

01:54:04.000 That freaks me the fuck out.

01:54:06.000 Charge your iPhone, you know?

01:54:07.000 Well, wireless.

01:54:08.000 Yeah, I mean, that's the simple electromagnetic...

01:54:13.000 Yeah, I know, again, but that's just simple electromagnetic induction.

01:54:17.000 Right, but I mean, Tesla, the scientist, had this concept of...

01:54:20.000 Right, that's what he said.

01:54:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. 0.97

01:54:22.000 I mean, for other people that don't know what you're saying, he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky, and Westinghouse was like, get the fuck out of here with that.

01:54:30.000 Like when anybody could just pull electricity out of the sky?

01:54:33.000 Can't meter it.

01:54:33.000 Yeah, they couldn't meter it.

01:54:34.000 We had this talk in the car ride over and trying to chill him out.

01:54:36.000 You know, we're talking about Tesla and how he couldn't be metered and how it all went down.

01:54:40.000 So it's funny you bring it up.

01:54:42.000 Yeah.

01:54:43.000 I mean, who knows what would have happened in terms of innovation had he been allowed to go forward with that.

01:54:49.000 Well, we probably wouldn't have computers.

01:54:52.000 You think?

01:54:53.000 Yeah, I'm pretty positive.

01:54:54.000 I mean, forget about microelectronics.

01:54:56.000 Well, this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air.

01:55:01.000 And yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights, but there'd be no radio communication.

01:55:07.000 The interference would be something that would be overwhelming.

01:55:10.000 It would induce electric currents in anything with a small wire on it.

01:55:15.000 So integrated circuits, transistors would be disintegrated before they were even, you know, tested for operation.

01:55:21.000 So it would... 0.81

01:55:22.000 Maybe it would have fucked us up. 0.98

01:55:24.000 Yeah, it would have stopped us dead. 0.98

01:55:26.000 It'd be great.

01:55:27.000 You can turn lighters on and heaters from all over the place with no wires, but it would stop modern electronics.

01:55:33.000 And if we became dependent on it, it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels, although it's destructive.

01:55:38.000 It's very difficult for us to get off the nipple. 0.71

01:55:41.000 It would have changed the course of how we developed, which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization of the star system didn't even start with fossil fuels.

01:55:49.000 They had 115 naturally on their planet.

01:55:51.000 And they're like, cool, anti-gravity is pretty awesome.

01:55:53.000 I think it's important that that actually happened.

01:55:57.000 It might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason.

01:56:01.000 Whoa.

01:56:05.000 I think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced.

01:56:12.000 Yeah, that's difficult.

01:56:14.000 If we imagine what this alien race must have been like, I mean, God...

01:56:28.000 Yeah.

01:56:29.000 Yeah.

01:56:40.000 But we don't see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate.

01:56:46.000 We have intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean.

01:56:49.000 The only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales.

01:56:52.000 And they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment.

01:56:55.000 And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, we put them in fish tanks.

01:57:01.000 And we're like, get in the tank, do some tricks.

01:57:03.000 You know, the only thing he saw in the craft, if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw in the craft that he related to, that looked like a human could make, was this honeycomb hatch.

01:57:14.000 And I always love that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.

01:57:19.000 You know, I only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked.

01:57:25.000 What was it?

01:57:25.000 And it was the access to the level below.

01:57:28.000 And it was...

01:57:31.000 Well, you know, if you have a six-pack of beer and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top.

01:57:42.000 But if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat.

01:57:45.000 So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal, and you could walk on that in the upper layer, but if you took the corner, stuck your finger in, and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway.

01:58:01.000 So I thought that was a really unique, I'd never seen that before, and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me.

01:58:07.000 I said, ah, we can make that, and all that is is a hatchway.

01:58:11.000 Was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft?

01:58:16.000 I'm sure there was, but that was the metallurgy division.

01:58:19.000 It had nothing to do with us.

01:58:20.000 So you never got a...

01:58:21.000 Not even the slightest briefing.

01:58:23.000 I don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic.

01:58:26.000 I think there's a fine line between the two.

01:58:30.000 Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past.

01:58:40.000 Yeah.

01:58:41.000 Some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos.

01:58:48.000 In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos is someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it and you were on that list.

01:58:57.000 So it proved that you worked there even though people were trying to deny it and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos.

01:59:03.000 You weren't really a scientist.

01:59:05.000 What was that like to experience?

01:59:08.000 I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when you could get away with something like that.

01:59:14.000 Yeah, obviously, there were a lot less records on computers at that time.

01:59:21.000 It was still file cabinets and folders.

01:59:23.000 But, yeah, that was frightening.

01:59:25.000 That was one of the first things I sort of— I think George Knapp was the first one that uncovered that.

01:59:32.000 I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear.

01:59:36.000 It disappeared?

01:59:37.000 Yeah.

01:59:37.000 There was no record of you being birthed?

01:59:38.000 Yeah, there was no record of that.

01:59:40.000 There was no record.

01:59:42.000 His mom tells me about that.

01:59:43.000 Like, it was frightening for her.

01:59:46.000 He's got a real family.

01:59:47.000 He's a real person.

01:59:48.000 It's frightening for her.

01:59:49.000 But the Los Alamos thing really surprised me and that they were so adamant that, no, this guy never worked here. 0.99

01:59:56.000 Don't be ridiculous. 0.74

01:59:57.000 And George went back and forth for months. 1.00

02:00:01.000 I mean, it was ridiculous.

02:00:03.000 But fortunately, somebody came up with a 1982 phone book directory.

02:00:07.000 I mean, and also, originally I told you, you know, when I worked there, I was on the front page of the paper.

02:00:16.000 So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives.

02:00:20.000 And, you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos, so there was at least something there.

02:00:25.000 But somehow George came up with the phone directory.

02:00:29.000 And then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.

02:00:33.000 Oh, yeah.

02:00:34.000 Yeah.

02:00:34.000 So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in.

02:00:37.000 I'll show you where I worked.

02:00:38.000 We'll go in.

02:00:39.000 We'll meet people.

02:00:40.000 And George went with me and filmed inside there.

02:00:43.000 And you knew how to navigate the place.

02:00:44.000 Oh, yeah.

02:00:45.000 And met people.

02:00:47.000 Well, Salmos was also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the size of your digits.

02:00:54.000 No, no.

02:00:55.000 That was in Los Angeles.

02:00:55.000 That was S4. That was S4. And explain that.

02:00:59.000 So, now this was back in the 80s.

02:01:02.000 And this was back in the 80s where, when you discussed this, people were like, this doesn't even exist.

02:01:06.000 Yeah.

02:01:07.000 Okay.

02:01:07.000 What was it?

02:01:08.000 It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint scanners and, you know, anything of...

02:01:15.000 Any high-resolution scanner at that time.

02:01:18.000 So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it, so you could jam your hand in there.

02:01:26.000 And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath.

02:01:29.000 And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on, and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shone through your bones.

02:01:38.000 And apparently...

02:01:41.000 The length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure.

02:01:46.000 And they use that.

02:01:47.000 When you put your hands on there, the light would turn on and your badge would pop out.

02:01:51.000 Oh, there it is!

02:01:52.000 That's it. 0.98

02:01:53.000 And I tried to describe this to people and they said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard. 0.81

02:01:59.000 And I said, hey, my badge came out of that thing.

02:02:03.000 I put my hand on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could open the doors and get into S4. And...

02:02:09.000 And everybody discredited that. 0.99

02:02:11.000 They said it was bullshit. 0.99

02:02:12.000 It was science fiction. 1.00

02:02:13.000 And Jeremy, you found this.

02:02:15.000 I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler Rogoway, and he had some good sources inside of Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time.

02:02:26.000 So now I've got all these people that worked within...

02:02:28.000 Who, you know, said only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology. 0.99

02:02:32.000 It was kind of shit, actually. 0.98

02:02:33.000 They didn't keep it for very long. 0.99

02:02:34.000 Beginning of Biometrics.

02:02:35.000 So I was able to reveal it in my film.

02:02:38.000 I kept my mouth shut until I showed it to Bob.

02:02:41.000 You know, in the movie, the first time he saw it was how you see it in the documentary.

02:02:44.000 That's his genuine reaction.

02:02:46.000 I'm getting goosebumps.

02:02:46.000 That was a great idea, the way you did it.

02:02:48.000 Thank you, man, because you know what?

02:02:49.000 Guess what?

02:02:49.000 I'm actually trying to see if he's telling the truth.

02:02:52.000 That's how I started.

02:02:53.000 You know, that's how I started.

02:02:54.000 So it was really cool to see that and that you get to see it, his actual reaction.

02:02:58.000 Has that been verified by other people?

02:03:00.000 Yeah, so to me it has.

02:03:03.000 Personally, I get emails every day and people are telling me where these are used and how they're used and send me photos.

02:03:09.000 I got a lot of photos of identimats now.

02:03:11.000 How they were used, right?

02:03:12.000 How they were used, but yeah.

02:03:14.000 The most recent one was...

02:03:16.000 Way more recent than I thought in another country.

02:03:18.000 But yeah, that technology was used.

02:03:21.000 So what's so funny is that this technology, even in the Area 52 where they'd use them for Tonopah, one of the guys who will go on camera with me, he will do an interview with me.

02:03:33.000 He was a technician for one of these.

02:03:35.000 And he hated them because they were really bad.

02:03:37.000 They always broke down and never.

02:03:39.000 And he was a technician for them.

02:03:41.000 Now he won't tell me where.

02:03:42.000 He worked at Area 52, so it was probably Tonopah.

02:03:46.000 It's very separated, even on bass, but yeah.

02:03:48.000 So, there was that.

02:03:50.000 There is your education record.

02:03:53.000 That was also, like, what happened with that?

02:03:57.000 Well, that disappeared also.

02:04:00.000 I've never gone anywhere for education.

02:04:06.000 I never attended any classes at Caltech.

02:04:08.000 I never attended anything at MIT. You did attend classes in those places.

02:04:14.000 I did attend classes in those places.

02:04:15.000 Do you know anybody that you went to school with?

02:04:17.000 Yes, I do.

02:04:19.000 And have they verified that they went to school with you?

02:04:21.000 Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but the reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets in trouble.

02:04:32.000 They don't want to be.

02:04:33.000 Of course.

02:04:33.000 Yeah.

02:04:34.000 Yeah, of course.

02:04:36.000 But what is that experience like, seeing your birth certificate erased, seeing your employment history?

02:04:42.000 Well, it's frightening.

02:04:44.000 It's absolutely frightening.

02:04:45.000 But it's also the fuel that the debunkers use, the so-called, air quote, skeptics.

02:04:49.000 I don't like the term skeptics.

02:04:51.000 I'm going to say this publicly because I really have only said this privately.

02:04:54.000 I think it's a sloppy, lazy way to look at things, to just be a skeptic.

02:04:59.000 I want people to be objective.

02:05:02.000 And I think there's a lot of things you should be skeptical of.

02:05:06.000 I think you should look at things and look at things...

02:05:11.000 From a hardline science perspective, you should be objective. 0.98

02:05:14.000 But the idea of skeptics, the problem with that is you're always looking for things to be bullshit. 0.98

02:05:19.000 And I think that's dangerous because I think some things aren't bullshit. 0.98

02:05:22.000 It's confirmation bias on the other end. 0.96

02:05:24.000 You're just deciding to take a square thing and put it in a round hole no matter what.

02:05:27.000 And I find a lot of them to be lazy.

02:05:29.000 A lot of them to be lazy thinkers.

02:05:31.000 Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going... 1.00

02:05:36.000 Instead of just separating their ego, they're playing a game, and the game is calling bullshit. 0.98

02:05:42.000 I want to call bullshit, and I'm going to line up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition. 0.98

02:05:49.000 Every time I'm thinking I'm going to catch him in something, you know, all along this process, I found Dr. Krangel. 0.98

02:05:55.000 He came forward and said, I was in security briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Alamos.

02:06:00.000 He went on the record with me.

02:06:01.000 Now, the other people I talked with, why won't they go on the record with me?

02:06:04.000 Because they're still working there.

02:06:07.000 So that's the difference, right?

02:06:08.000 What can the public have, right?

02:06:10.000 Or even if they're not working there, you know, they want to live their lives.

02:06:13.000 I mean, obviously people have seen what's happened to you.

02:06:16.000 Mike Thigpen.

02:06:17.000 After 30 years, I found him.

02:06:19.000 Yeah, really, if you look at all the information on, you know, concerning my accounts, that's verifiable. 0.98

02:06:27.000 It can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore. 0.55

02:06:30.000 It's really way past that point. 0.98

02:06:32.000 I mean, Mike Thigpen is, I mean, how could I possibly know?

02:06:38.000 So, Mike Thigpen...

02:06:40.000 Was the guy that did the security clearances to go to the base.

02:06:44.000 One of the guys that was used.

02:06:45.000 And this is the guy that you worked with?

02:06:46.000 He said he did.

02:06:48.000 Right.

02:06:48.000 And George Knapp, you know, George didn't believe him.

02:06:51.000 George put him through four polygraph tests, right?

02:06:54.000 He tried to see, man, this is a big risk.

02:06:56.000 It sounds interesting, but let's see if he's telling the truth.

02:06:59.000 One of the things was, Bob said there was a guy named Mike Thigpen.

02:07:03.000 He did security clearances for the base.

02:07:04.000 And that's a weird name.

02:07:06.000 It's a very specific...

02:07:08.000 For 30 years, George found this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know.

02:07:13.000 It was my thick pen.

02:07:14.000 The guy wouldn't talk to me.

02:07:15.000 Ghosted him.

02:07:15.000 Totally ghosted him for 30 years.

02:07:17.000 Used Facebook and Google Image Match through his children.

02:07:20.000 I was able to find him after 30 years.

02:07:22.000 And I talked to him three times on the phone.

02:07:25.000 He lives on the East Coast.

02:07:26.000 He almost went on camera with me.

02:07:28.000 Confirmed that he did security clearances for the base in 1989. Confirmed he remembers Bob Lazar.

02:07:33.000 And what you don't know is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours has from Mike.

02:07:39.000 What?

02:07:39.000 I know.

02:07:40.000 I'm going to give it to you later.

02:07:41.000 But that is real.

02:07:42.000 That is actual.

02:07:42.000 A handwritten note that says what?

02:07:44.000 This is new to me.

02:07:45.000 So when you're...

02:07:50.000 When they do security clearances, they go through all your friends and family.

02:07:54.000 And they go to your friends and family, yeah.

02:07:55.000 So this is to Bob and I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving and they're doing a security clearance for him and even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI will come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend and they lift a little card.

02:08:10.000 And when my wife told him to get away because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card.

02:08:14.000 It's super cute now.

02:08:15.000 Back then it was a handwritten note and his friend has it for him that you haven't seen in Oh my god.

02:08:21.000 Two decades.

02:08:22.000 So if you're listening, friend...

02:08:23.000 How come you're telling me this now?

02:08:25.000 I don't know why I'm telling you this.

02:08:25.000 What is this card?

02:08:27.000 It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Thigpen's signature.

02:08:30.000 A card, like a postcard.

02:08:33.000 Like a piece of paper that he left on the door saying when Bob gets back or whatever it says on it.

02:08:38.000 So it's just another little funny thing.

02:08:40.000 I found the guy.

02:08:40.000 He does the security clearances.

02:08:42.000 He admitted to me he did it.

02:08:43.000 He admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp because when George said his name on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever, and he's looking at his wife.

02:08:53.000 He was in trouble.

02:08:54.000 His name's never supposed to be out there like this.

02:08:55.000 It's just a security clearance guy.

02:08:57.000 But you don't want national attention associated with anything Bob has to say.

02:09:01.000 But anyway, this unique name Bob said for 30 years, and the guy ghosted George Knapp.

02:09:06.000 George could prove he existed.

02:09:08.000 He actually talked to me, man.

02:09:09.000 He talked to me three times.

02:09:10.000 He almost went on camera with me.

02:09:12.000 It's just crazy.

02:09:13.000 What happens after 30 years?

02:09:15.000 You just get more info.

02:09:16.000 Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important.

02:09:31.000 I really do.

02:09:32.000 I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way.

02:09:42.000 And if you examine all the information that you've said today, if you look at all the things that the detractors have said, if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out and all these really high-level people in the military and the government that are discussing this,

02:10:01.000 It gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 1980s when this came out. 0.99

02:10:09.000 Fuck yes! 0.99

02:10:10.000 You can't ignore his story just because you don't like it anymore. 1.00

02:10:13.000 That's why I thought it was important that you come out and refresh the world's memory and let people know.

02:10:19.000 And like I said, I've been...

02:10:20.000 I don't want to say I'm a fan of yours, but I guess I'm a fan of yours.

02:10:23.000 As a human being, I'm a fan of yours.

02:10:24.000 But I've been following you for decades.

02:10:26.000 I've been following the story for decades.

02:10:29.000 No kidding.

02:10:30.000 I have VHS tapes.

02:10:31.000 Bob, like a lot of the world has?

02:10:33.000 Yeah.

02:10:33.000 It's crazy.

02:10:34.000 Well, anybody that has any sort of vested interest or just a fascination with UFOs has followed your story because there's no one else.

02:10:47.000 There's no one else that comes forward.

02:10:49.000 There's some guy who said, I worked underground with the aliens and they shot my hand off.

02:10:52.000 There's a bunch of wacky dudes.

02:10:54.000 They're underground.

02:10:55.000 There's bases.

02:10:56.000 They're shooting lasers through the Earth's crust and they move them at light speed.

02:10:59.000 There's a lot of those guys. 0.76

02:11:00.000 They seem schizophrenic. 1.00

02:11:01.000 They seem crazy. 0.99

02:11:02.000 They might even be disinformation agents.

02:11:04.000 They might be people that are designed to muddy the waters, which for sure happens.

02:11:09.000 People are coming forward though now.

02:11:11.000 It's amazing.

02:11:12.000 And by doing this, what you're doing, you're providing an opportunity for Bob to tell his story.

02:11:16.000 Believe it or not, he can tell his story.

02:11:18.000 It's amazing because more people will come forward now that are involved with these projects.

02:11:24.000 They'll come forward to you, to me, they're coming forward.

02:11:27.000 And so what you've done here is provide that opportunity if they need it.

02:11:30.000 And it's amazing.

02:11:31.000 I just want to say, Bob...

02:11:32.000 Just don't come forward to me.

02:11:33.000 No, don't come forward to Bob.

02:11:35.000 Why were you freaking nauseous at the beginning of this, like, so upset?

02:11:42.000 Why did you have a migraine?

02:11:43.000 Because that started off so hard, my God.

02:11:45.000 I was sitting here like, did this...

02:11:46.000 Well, why are you asking him why?

02:11:47.000 It's obvious.

02:11:48.000 Anxiety. 0.99

02:11:49.000 The guy's gone through 30 fucking years of being persecuted. 0.99

02:11:51.000 They've erased his birth certificate. 0.99

02:11:53.000 What do you want to hear from him?

02:11:54.000 I want to hear him say...

02:11:55.000 I want them to hear his...

02:11:56.000 Why do I have to say that?

02:11:57.000 You don't.

02:11:58.000 We get it.

02:11:58.000 I stay.

02:11:59.000 Step out.

02:11:59.000 Settle down!

02:12:02.000 Yeah, well, I get it.

02:12:03.000 It was hard for you to get them here.

02:12:06.000 It was hard for us.

02:12:08.000 You did a lot more than me.

02:12:09.000 What really annoys me are the people that say, you know, you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of attention.

02:12:16.000 That's a good point.

02:12:17.000 Please explain that.

02:12:18.000 First of all, I don't get any money out of this at all.

02:12:21.000 And I didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything.

02:12:26.000 I mean, any time, like when Jeremy pre-previewed, I guess, the movie up in Michigan, I mean, it brought in like a couple thousand dollars.

02:12:37.000 I made sure that $2,000 went to science programs at the local high schools there.

02:12:42.000 It's like dirty money.

02:12:43.000 He doesn't want to touch it.

02:12:44.000 I don't take any money from this stuff.

02:12:45.000 And as far as attention... 0.99

02:12:48.000 I hate fucking attention. 0.99

02:12:50.000 I don't like being on shows. 1.00

02:12:52.000 I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing.

02:12:56.000 I got enough hugs when I was a kid.

02:12:58.000 I don't need any attention.

02:13:01.000 If you think somehow we came up with this thing, then you've got to tell me why we did it.

02:13:08.000 Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't profited off of this, and like you said, that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs.

02:13:18.000 I mean, it doesn't make any sense any other way.

02:13:23.000 I mean, what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here when I watched the documentary, that what you're saying makes sense. 0.99

02:13:31.000 It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit. 0.97

02:13:33.000 That happened exactly like I said it did, Joe. 0.99

02:13:36.000 I believe you.

02:13:38.000 In closing, is there anything else you'd like to say?

02:13:42.000 No, I can't think of anything other than really don't come and try to visit me.

02:13:48.000 Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out and I mean maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story but over the past 30 years it's been immense.

02:14:03.000 It's been great and I just want to thank you for that.

02:14:06.000 And thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way.

02:14:13.000 Oh, thanks, Joe.

02:14:14.000 Thank you.

02:14:15.000 And thank you, Jeremy.

02:14:16.000 And one more time, the documentary is available on Netflix right now.

02:14:19.000 Yeah, it's called Bob Lazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers.

02:14:23.000 All right.

02:14:24.000 That's it, folks.

02:14:25.000 Good night.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 20, 2019

Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

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