The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1323 - Andy Ngo

00:00:02.000 Okay.

00:00:03.000 Hello, Andy.

00:00:04.000 Hi, Mr. Rogan.

00:00:05.000 Thanks for having me on.

00:00:06.000 My pleasure.

00:00:07.000 How you doing, man?

00:00:08.000 You're all healed up?

00:00:09.000 The bruising and swelling has gone down, as you can see, but the more serious injury was to the brain.

00:00:15.000 You have a serious injury to your brain?

00:00:17.000 Yeah.

00:00:18.000 Brain hemorrhage.

00:00:19.000 What happened?

00:00:19.000 From what?

00:00:20.000 The mob beating.

00:00:22.000 From getting hit in the head? 0.92

00:00:23.000 You got a brain hemorrhage?

00:00:25.000 Multiple times.

00:00:26.000 Really?

00:00:27.000 Contusions, yes.

00:00:27.000 They were bashing me on the back of my head and to my eyes.

00:00:33.000 So how do you know you had brain hemorrhaging and how were you able to just walk around?

00:00:37.000 Well, I was taken to...

00:00:39.000 I started losing my balance after the beating.

00:00:42.000 There was no police.

00:00:43.000 I made it to the courthouse, sat down on the ground.

00:00:47.000 Ambulance was called.

00:00:49.000 I had to walk back to the ambulance because the streets were...

00:00:51.000 I walked back to the police precinct in the direction of the mob.

00:00:55.000 The medics that were associated with the Portland police let me know that I needed to walk in that direction.

00:01:00.000 It was quite shocking because it was...

00:01:02.000 I had just been a victim of this mob beating and then now they're telling me to walk back.

00:01:11.000 Did they not know that you had been beaten up?

00:01:15.000 Let's set this up for people who are new to this and don't understand what happened.

00:01:20.000 I've been aware of you because you had written for Quillette, right?

00:01:26.000 And you had become one of these, for whatever reason, controversial online journalists.

00:01:33.000 And you covered Antifa quite a bit.

00:01:37.000 And you covered a lot of the radical left.

00:01:40.000 You were in Portland.

00:01:42.000 And what was the exact rally that was going on?

00:01:47.000 What was it called?

00:01:48.000 Did it have a name?

00:01:50.000 It was something like Protect Portland.

00:01:52.000 So it was organized by Rose City Antifa and its allies.

00:01:58.000 And by its allies, I'm referring to the local chapter of the Democratic Socialist America that came out to support them in numbers.

00:02:06.000 And what are they protecting Portland from?

00:02:09.000 They allege fascists.

00:02:12.000 Fascists.

00:02:12.000 But just in general, I mean, is there a particular thing they're worried about?

00:02:16.000 There were two right-wing events happening that day that they were counter-demonstrating against.

00:02:24.000 On one part of downtown, the Proud Boys were holding a flag-waving event.

00:02:30.000 That was completely peaceful.

00:02:33.000 Flag-waving? 0.69

00:02:34.000 American flag-waving?

00:02:35.000 Correct.

00:02:35.000 Okay.

00:02:37.000 A lot of Portlanders found that provocative and a manifestation of fascistic violence.

00:02:44.000 And in another part of downtown, there was a men's rights activist who was holding a rally.

00:02:52.000 It was titled for victims of domestic terrorism.

00:02:55.000 It was an anti-Antifa event.

00:02:58.000 Hmm.

00:03:00.000 A men's rights activist?

00:03:03.000 Yes.

00:03:03.000 That was doing an anti-fascist or anti-Antifa?

00:03:08.000 Correct.

00:03:09.000 Boy.

00:03:12.000 Seems like a whole lot to do about nothing.

00:03:14.000 Flag-waving and anti-Antifa.

00:03:17.000 Okay.

00:03:17.000 Yeah, can I set the context for the city of Portland?

00:03:21.000 It's a mess.

00:03:21.000 You have listeners and viewers all over the world.

00:03:24.000 So Portland, Oregon is an extremely progressive city in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. And I call it a political monoculture because really it's...

00:03:39.000 You're more likely to find open socialists there than you would find a regular Republican or conservative.

00:03:47.000 And within this sort of echo chamber of just leftist politics, it's become also a hotbed for far-left militancy.

00:03:57.000 So Rose City Antifa is, you could call it, the local chapter movement of Antifa.

00:04:03.000 It's one of the oldest in the country.

00:04:04.000 It's very large in Portland.

00:04:07.000 And they hold what you could call protests, but they're protests that always devolve into riots where they essentially take over parts of downtown and attack people, attack their ideological opponents, and do it frequently with impunity.

00:04:24.000 I mean, I wasn't the only one attack that day.

00:04:26.000 There were two other people who were bashed on the head and had very severe lacerations to the face and head.

00:04:35.000 Yeah.

00:04:52.000 So, I mean, the next part of this journey for me will be the legal aspect of it.

00:04:58.000 And it seems like something stinks in Portland.

00:05:01.000 The issue is really not with the rank-and-file officers.

00:05:04.000 They're following orders to not intervene.

00:05:08.000 So I have been...

00:05:11.000 Assaulted and criminally harassed before the mob beating.

00:05:14.000 People were throwing milkshakes at my face and head within eyesight of police who were watching in downtown.

00:05:22.000 And both of these were reported.

00:05:23.000 And the answer that I heard that day, as I've heard many times before when I've been assaulted by Antifa, is that we will not question, approach, or detain the suspect because this could incite the crowd.

00:05:36.000 Okay, so this is why this has exacerbated, or this is why this has become such a big deal in Portland, because of this attitude?

00:05:43.000 Because Portland seems to be the hotbed right now for this kind of stuff.

00:05:47.000 Is that fair to say?

00:05:48.000 I think it is.

00:05:49.000 So, is this the mayor?

00:05:52.000 I mean, who's the one who's giving the orders to the police to tell them to allow this stuff to take place?

00:06:00.000 Well, I'm crowdfunding for the legal fund right now, and we are going to hold accountable whoever is responsible for dereliction of duty, where the evidence leads us.

00:06:12.000 So, Portland has an odd governance system in that the mayor, who is up for re-election, by the way, is also the police commissioner.

00:06:25.000 Oh, wow.

00:06:26.000 Yeah.

00:06:27.000 How does that work?

00:06:29.000 It was an old system that it inherited and it just never changed.

00:06:33.000 From the Wild West? 0.98

00:06:35.000 That sounds ridiculous. 1.00

00:06:36.000 Yeah, it is ridiculous. 0.98

00:06:37.000 You can see all the conflicts of interest that would arise, right? 0.99

00:06:44.000 Yeah, shitload.

00:06:46.000 How did you get involved in this?

00:06:48.000 First of all, why were they angry at you?

00:06:53.000 I work as a journalist.

00:06:55.000 I'll name places that I've been published before I write, and I do video and I do podcasts.

00:06:59.000 So my written work has been published in the Wall Street Journal, the National Review, Spectator, New York Post.

00:07:06.000 I'm also on the editorial team of Quillette magazine.

00:07:09.000 And one of my beats among several is about far-left militancy, particularly in Portland.

00:07:17.000 To me, what I was noticing was that the national and local media coverage had a particular blind spot when it came to their coverage on Antifa.

00:07:28.000 There was all this sensitivity to the quote-unquote far-right and white nationalism or white identity extremism.

00:07:39.000 But they could not or would not recognize the militancy that was on the left.

00:07:44.000 And Portland seemed to be one of the places for ground zero, particularly after 2016. We had very violent rioting in downtown.

00:07:55.000 A segment of the population could not accept the election results in November.

00:08:00.000 And so they did a million dollars in damage, setting fires and And destroying properties and businesses.

00:08:08.000 And at that time, I was a graduate student working at the student paper, and I did a story on that.

00:08:14.000 And I came out to witness, and it, you know, this was a major American city, but it felt like I was in Afghanistan or Iraq, just with all these fires and explosions and people running around with bats while masked up.

00:08:28.000 And that was the first time I really became familiar with Antifa, and I took an interest in it.

00:08:32.000 And I saw over and over that the media coverage was basically really sort of whitewashing them, kind of like referring to them as anti-fascists, giving them that propaganda victory.

00:08:46.000 And Antifa as a movement, they're masters of doublespeak and disinformation.

00:08:53.000 So it starts with the name Antifa that is short for anti-fascists, but I never refer to them as that because that's...

00:09:01.000 Ceding the ground to them.

00:09:06.000 When they say that they are defending a community, self-defense, it actually is referring to premeditated violence and offensive violence.

00:09:18.000 I started covering this more and more.

00:09:21.000 After I left the student paper, I started writing for some national and international publications.

00:09:31.000 Internationally, there was a set of readers who were interested in what the hell is going on in Portland.

00:09:37.000 Why are there these continued scenes of street brawls and anarchy over and over?

00:09:42.000 What are the variables that are causing this?

00:09:45.000 And I thought that I could try to shine a light on it.

00:09:49.000 And by doing so, Antifa became enraged with my work.

00:09:56.000 Particularly things...

00:09:58.000 They've hated me since last year.

00:10:00.000 But they started really escalating on the 1st of May, May Day.

00:10:08.000 So this year was when I was physically assaulted by them for the first time.

00:10:15.000 They were very upset that I... I wrote a story from the New York Post where there was a series of, and this is one of the other beats that I work on, is hate crime hoaxes.

00:10:28.000 Portland earlier this year had this huge panic over serious allegations of LGBT people claiming that they were marauding right-wing gangs, driving around, trying to kill people with bats, with hammers, trying to kidnap them.

00:10:46.000 And these were all rumors that were reported on social media.

00:10:49.000 It caused a huge frenzy.

00:10:50.000 Even the mayor had to come out and issue a statement about how he was concerned.

00:10:56.000 There was an emergency town hall with the local queer center.

00:11:01.000 And so I started looking into all these allegations.

00:11:04.000 There were 15 of them.

00:11:05.000 And I found that of the 15, only one was reported to police.

00:11:10.000 And what was reported to police and documented in the report was entirely different from the GoFundMe, where over $10,000 was raised for this trans activist.

00:11:20.000 She had alleged that one night walking home transphobic people had beat her with the bat and knocked her unconscious.

00:11:28.000 Police reports said that she was extremely intoxicated and likely fell and there was no evidence that anybody had assaulted her.

00:11:36.000 So when this story came out, because Antifa and the Democratic Socialists of America in Portland were really involved in peddling this hate crime fear in Portland, and I just kind of threw water on this panic that they had been flaming.

00:11:56.000 And so on the 1st of May, there was a riot that I was covering and one of the masked people went up and sprayed me with, I think it was bear mace, some type of chemical that blinds you and burns you.

00:12:10.000 Yeah, I saw that video.

00:12:11.000 Yeah.

00:12:12.000 So, there was no police that was there.

00:12:15.000 I mean, that Antifa event was publicly advertised on Facebook and all that.

00:12:20.000 So, over and over, Antifa is very transparent about their calls for people to come to their stuff and to engage in this physical confrontation that they call self-defense.

00:12:31.000 And the police either stay away on purpose or are told to stay away.

00:12:37.000 So...

00:12:39.000 It's very confusing.

00:12:40.000 Because when you watch the videos, they're just macing people.

00:12:43.000 They're macing people who disagree with them, like they're yelling at each other, and then someone will come along and mace people.

00:12:48.000 And for the police to not step in and do something, I don't think there's another city in the country that would allow something like that.

00:12:57.000 It just doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all because you're not talking about people that are being physically attacked and that are macing someone to protect themselves or even a threat of being physically attacked.

00:13:07.000 They're just disagreeing with each other and yelling at each other and then someone will come along and start macing people.

00:13:12.000 And I've seen it many times.

00:13:15.000 And I think there's also a real problem with people wearing masks.

00:13:18.000 You know, whether their ideology makes sense or not, when you put people in masks, and then you have a bunch of people yelling and escalating, and then there's teams, there's Team Antifa versus Team, you know, anybody opposing them, they feel is a white supremacist or a Nazi.

00:13:35.000 And this is just how they've chosen to frame it to dehumanize people.

00:13:38.000 And then you see them attack people.

00:13:40.000 I'm sure you're aware of the girl who got maced in the face because she had a hat on that said, But it was the same color hat as the Make America Great Again hat and she got maced in the face. 0.99

00:13:50.000 And she got hit with something too, right?

00:13:52.000 Didn't she get hit in the face with something? 1.00

00:13:54.000 Anyway, this kind of shit is really weird. 0.99

00:13:58.000 It's really weird and disturbing to see these young people with these idealistic versions of what they're doing. 0.99

00:14:05.000 I think a lot of the people that are involved in that really think they are fighting fascism.

00:14:09.000 They really do.

00:14:10.000 They really think that Donald Trump and the Proud Boys and white supremacists from Charlottesville carrying tiki torches that these people represent something horrible that's sweeping across the country and the young People today need to stand up and fight against this. 0.90

00:14:24.000 And they're putting on masks and they're carrying backpacks and whacking people in the head with crowbars. 0.99

00:14:28.000 It is really fucking weird to see. 0.99

00:14:31.000 And it's really weird that the city of Portland, or all cities in fact, haven't made some sort of a law where you can't walk around in public with a fucking mask on. 0.98

00:14:42.000 Because that is one of the things that helps these people. 0.99

00:14:44.000 It's the same thing that you see on social media when people are anonymous and they say the most horrible, hateful shit. 0.99

00:14:50.000 They're saying that because they're not in front of you. 0.99

00:14:52.000 You can't recognize them.

00:14:54.000 They don't have to take responsibility for what they're saying.

00:14:56.000 This is a lot of the same characteristics that a person has when they're wearing a costume.

00:15:01.000 You're dressed in all black with gloves on and a face mask, and you're hitting people with a bike lock.

00:15:06.000 Like, what is that about?

00:15:07.000 Well, what that's about is you're getting away with being anonymous and you're getting support from all these other people around you.

00:15:14.000 There's this mob mentality that takes place that's well documented with humans where when you get a group of people together and there's another group and it's like it's a tribal warfare type situation. 0.95

00:15:25.000 And that's what you're seeing with Antifa and the fact that The Portland police have, I don't know what's going on with them, whether they've been told to not handle that, but the fact they haven't done anything to mitigate this is fucking, it's embarrassing. 0.98

00:15:38.000 It's a shame. 0.98

00:15:39.000 It's terrible.

00:15:40.000 It really is.

00:15:42.000 It's a travesty.

00:15:44.000 You asked about the mayor earlier and if he issued any stand-on orders.

00:15:48.000 There's a statement that was put out after I was attacked by Daryl Turner, who's the president of the police union, and he said very clearly he called for the mayor to remove the handcuffs of law enforcement so they can enforce the law.

00:16:03.000 And he accused the mayor of politicizing the police department.

00:16:07.000 Is this mayor popular?

00:16:10.000 No, he's not.

00:16:12.000 He's hated, well, by moderates because of the things that he allows to happen in the city, but the far left hate him as well.

00:16:20.000 They view him as not radical enough.

00:16:26.000 Why are they mad at you?

00:16:28.000 Is it just the articles that you've written?

00:16:29.000 Because somebody told me that you had been accused of doxing people.

00:16:32.000 Is that true?

00:16:33.000 Absolutely not true.

00:16:34.000 So this is such an outrageous defamatory claim.

00:16:38.000 So what happened was on May Day at that riot, there was one of the Antifa women... 1.00

00:16:47.000 Yeah.

00:17:02.000 I recognize this woman from her activism that day as the person who sabotaged the sound equipment when James Damore came to Portland State in February of last year.

00:17:14.000 That was an event that I was involved in organizing at Portland State University.

00:17:18.000 We should just explain to people James Damore is the author of the Google memo that was talking about women in tech.

00:17:23.000 That was...

00:17:26.000 Wildly misrepresented what he had said and people had claimed that he was this awful sexist.

00:17:31.000 Even the CEO of YouTube said that he enforced harmful gender stereotypes where while he was citing evolutionary psychology and the Citing all these different studies on why women gravitate towards particular fields and even a page and a half encouraging or strategies to encourage more women to get an attack.

00:17:53.000 But it was basically in response to things that Google had written.

00:17:57.000 About dealing with the lack of women in tech.

00:18:00.000 What is the problem here?

00:18:02.000 They were looking for a very particular answer, which was sexism.

00:18:05.000 And he was saying, well it actually has more to do with the choices that women sort of naturally tend to gravitate towards.

00:18:12.000 And he was saying that there was a way to possibly encourage women to get into technology, and he devised these strategies to do so, but was wildly misrepresented.

00:18:23.000 And if you meet the guy, and I've had him on the podcast, he is a soft-spoken Sweetheart of a guy.

00:18:29.000 He's not a misogynist, not a mean-spirited person.

00:18:32.000 He was merely looking at the results of studies.

00:18:35.000 And he was looking at real raw data and this real tendency that certain people have to gravitate towards certain positions in life.

00:18:45.000 Yeah, so there were so many misconceptions about James Moore, which is why the student group I was involved in invited him to come.

00:18:52.000 But Antifa and the Allies just could not take that.

00:18:55.000 They tried to shut down the event.

00:18:56.000 They tried to get it cancelled.

00:18:58.000 At that event, this one woman, she damaged the sound equipment as she was trying to shut it down. 0.99

00:19:03.000 She pulled all these cords out and pushed the soundboard on the ground. 0.78

00:19:06.000 It broke.

00:19:07.000 So I recognized her from that day.

00:19:09.000 She was named in the media.

00:19:11.000 And then, on May Day, I recognized her.

00:19:14.000 So I named her.

00:19:15.000 I said, this is the name of the woman who was knocked out.

00:19:18.000 I recognized her from the James Des Moines event protest, where she had damaged equipment. 1.00

00:19:24.000 And Antifa had spun that around as me doxing her. 0.92

00:19:31.000 That's not doxing.

00:19:32.000 Doxing is where you release people's personal details, such as where they work, where they live, their phone numbers, so that people...

00:19:41.000 You identified her?

00:19:42.000 I named her, yes.

00:19:44.000 But she had been identified in the media before.

00:19:46.000 She was a big local activist. 0.95

00:19:49.000 So that's basically it.

00:19:51.000 Other than you writing these stories, criticizing their behavior...

00:19:56.000 What's disturbing to me, beyond disturbing, was legitimate journalists that were making excuses for why you got beat up. 1.00

00:20:06.000 And people saying things like, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 1.00

00:20:12.000 I saw stuff like that. 1.00

00:20:13.000 Pick a better hobby.

00:20:15.000 I saw a guy write that.

00:20:17.000 You know, anti-fascists will rule, you know, Portland's not your place. 0.99

00:20:21.000 I saw all this crazy shit from people with blue checkmarks that were saying that this is what happens when you support fascism. 0.99

00:20:30.000 And I was so baffled by this. 0.99

00:20:32.000 Like, I read some of your stuff.

00:20:34.000 I haven't read all of it, admittedly.

00:20:36.000 But I've read some of your stuff.

00:20:37.000 None of it came off as you supporting fascism.

00:20:40.000 It came off as you, maybe at the worst case scenario, being a contrarian and not wanting to go with this sort of left-wing ideology that is so widespread throughout the Pacific Northwest.

00:20:54.000 But I didn't see any...

00:20:57.000 I mean, first of all, you're not a white guy, which should be explained to people.

00:21:02.000 You are Vietnamese, and you're what they would consider a member of a protected class. 0.99

00:21:07.000 You're not just a minority. 0.96

00:21:09.000 You're openly gay. 0.95

00:21:12.000 What do you consider yourself politically?

00:21:17.000 I've been avoiding labels for a while.

00:21:19.000 I think it's interesting that a lot of the coverage on what happened to me always qualified who I am as a conservative journalist.

00:21:30.000 Well, the worst thing is the way they're labeled Quillette.

00:21:32.000 They said you work for far-right newspaper or magazine, Quillette, which is not the case at all.

00:21:40.000 That's not true.

00:21:41.000 Yeah.

00:21:42.000 I think the subtle...

00:21:43.000 I mean, the dog whistles that they're trying to say in there that this person deserved it.

00:21:49.000 And of course, these are the same people who always talk about, believe the victim.

00:21:53.000 They were the ones who jumped on to believe Jussie Smollett.

00:21:57.000 But I guess I was the wrong type of victim.

00:22:00.000 Well, exactly.

00:22:01.000 Because even though you seem like a very nice person, you weren't doing anything violent...

00:22:10.000 You're supporting the wrong thing or not supporting them.

00:22:13.000 Not just blindly supporting what Antifa is involved with, which is what – I mean, that is what fascism is. 0.96

00:22:22.000 I mean, you can't even question some of the more heinous things – I mean, clearly heinous things – they're doing just fucking macing people in the audience.

00:22:31.000 You may see people in the crowd just pointing it at people, yelling and screaming, hitting each other with things when you're wearing masks, getting involved in these brawls. 1.00

00:22:40.000 It's so fucking stupid. 1.00

00:22:42.000 It's so stupid to watch. 1.00

00:22:44.000 It's like this is base human behavior in its worst example. 1.00

00:22:50.000 And the fact that this dumbass fucking mayor thinks that this is a good idea to let this play itself out. 1.00

00:22:56.000 This is how people get shot. 1.00

00:22:57.000 This is how people die.

00:22:59.000 When you allow a certain amount of violence and when you condone or don't do anything with violence that you can't defend, like violence against a person like yourself.

00:23:07.000 I saw those guys hitting you in the back of the head, throwing milkshakes at you, just trying to walk away.

00:23:12.000 You weren't doing anything.

00:23:15.000 Yeah, you asked me at the beginning, how did I get the brain hemorrhage?

00:23:18.000 So, the video that's gone viral out there is actually the second half of the beating.

00:23:23.000 I don't know if there's video of the first half.

00:23:25.000 Hopefully, there is through CCTV or something.

00:23:28.000 But the first, there were more hits to my face and my head.

00:23:32.000 And so, when I went to the hospital, because of the nature of the contusions on my head, they did a CT scan in the ER, and that confirmed the subarachnoid hemorrhage.

00:23:43.000 So what started it?

00:23:47.000 Why did you get hit?

00:23:48.000 Okay.

00:23:50.000 29th of June.

00:23:51.000 Okay.

00:23:51.000 That would be 10, 11 days ago from now.

00:23:55.000 And so there was that demonstration happening.

00:23:58.000 Antifa was rallying to oppose the far right.

00:24:01.000 They claim opposed fascists.

00:24:04.000 I came, was excited to use my new GoPro.

00:24:06.000 I was a bit nervous, speaking, going to the event I was nervous because I'd been targeted just two months earlier, right?

00:24:16.000 I left my house with a helmet and got in my car, saw briefly my...

00:24:20.000 You wore a helmet?

00:24:21.000 I had a helmet.

00:24:23.000 I did have one.

00:24:24.000 Saw a reflection on myself.

00:24:26.000 Took it off.

00:24:27.000 Decided, I don't want anybody there to get the impression that I came.

00:24:31.000 Because they already accused me of being a Nazi and far-right and white supremacist.

00:24:36.000 I didn't want any of them to then perceive me by the fact that I came as a helmet as possibly a combatant.

00:24:43.000 So I left it at home. 0.85

00:24:44.000 Can you be a Vietnamese white supremacist? 0.91

00:24:45.000 Is that possible? 0.81

00:24:46.000 In their eyes, yes.

00:24:48.000 Hilarious.

00:24:50.000 I mean, this goes to the bigger issue that I've taken issue with how flippant people use these accusations of not just racist or being Nazi or far right, but it's like, part of what makes Antifa so dangerous is that they feel that they are morally justified in their brutality.

00:25:09.000 Yes.

00:25:10.000 And they get, actually, a lot of morale from progressive and left-wing media.

00:25:17.000 So, after talking about what the attacker would like to talk about, how the actual militant antifa people is very small, those who are going out and doing the violence.

00:25:28.000 The larger group and those that I find more concerning, actually, are the nonviolent antifa.

00:25:35.000 You find those more concerning?

00:25:37.000 Why?

00:25:38.000 Because they work to mainstream Antifa's tactics and ideas.

00:25:44.000 Like now, doxing by Antifa is not even seen as, well, these people deserve it.

00:25:52.000 Do people not realize, when you're doxing, people releasing your address has happened to me, your family's address...

00:26:02.000 It puts this constant state of fear in you, even when you're in your own home.

00:26:07.000 I don't know if they realize that.

00:26:10.000 So there's the doxing, and then of course the punch the Nazi meme was meant to be cute and funny, but when they label such a large segment of the population as Nazis, it's...

00:26:21.000 It's going after a lot of people who are innocent and law-abiding, such as myself. 0.79

00:26:27.000 Well, they're also calling Jewish people Nazis, which is insane.

00:26:30.000 And then, now more recently, the milkshaking, we've seen as this cute, non-violent form of political dissent.

00:26:36.000 As you saw in the video, after I was getting beaten, I was trying to get away, and then they were pelting all these liquids at my head, and In my face, and that blinded me.

00:26:47.000 I couldn't even see really which way to leave.

00:26:49.000 So, to backtrack a little bit, sorry that I'm jumping all over.

00:26:53.000 It's okay.

00:26:54.000 The march was right in the heart of downtown.

00:26:57.000 Just before I was attacked, they were chanting, no hate, no fear.

00:27:01.000 This is the irony of it.

00:27:02.000 I remember that very clearly.

00:27:03.000 The crowd was chanting that.

00:27:04.000 I was walking towards the front of the demonstration, thought I would get a wide-angle shot on my GoPro.

00:27:10.000 Before I could get there, somebody bashes me really hard in the back of the head.

00:27:14.000 And I've never been in a fight, Mr. Rogan, so I didn't even realize what had happened to me.

00:27:20.000 I was knocked forward.

00:27:21.000 As soon as I caught my footing, the punches kept coming from every direction, and all I could see was people dressed in black with masks, and most of them that were hitting me had on these gloves that have the hardened knuckles.

00:27:37.000 I think it's like...

00:27:38.000 Sap gloves.

00:27:38.000 Yes.

00:27:39.000 Or tactical gloves.

00:27:40.000 Yeah.

00:27:40.000 It was just endless.

00:27:42.000 And I could see in the background, like, this was in front of the Justice Center.

00:27:46.000 This is the other sad irony.

00:27:48.000 So, in broad daylight, in the heart of downtown, steps away from the central police precinct, from the sheriff's office, this beating happened.

00:27:59.000 No police intervened at any point.

00:28:01.000 Did police see it?

00:28:02.000 I don't know.

00:28:04.000 Nobody came to my aid at any point.

00:28:06.000 Before, during, or after.

00:28:08.000 So this happens out of nowhere.

00:28:09.000 You get blindsided to the back of the head.

00:28:11.000 A bunch of people punch you.

00:28:12.000 How many times do you think you got hit?

00:28:15.000 Maybe six or more.

00:28:17.000 The fact that people dismiss this as not being a big deal is really horrific to me.

00:28:23.000 The fact that the people that are in Antifa that are non-violent folks, which I think, I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring that up, that it's the extreme of the extremists, right?

00:28:33.000 It's the people that think that That there's a call for violence and that there's a reason to do it.

00:28:38.000 And even someone like yourself that is a nonviolent person is just there as a journalist.

00:28:42.000 That there is a justification for just, for whatever reason you want, just go up to that person and start hitting them.

00:28:49.000 Even though they're not a threat, even though they're not doing anything to harm anybody, even though they're not putting anybody in danger, they're just being a journalist and you feel like you could justify hitting them. 0.97

00:28:58.000 It's really disgusting.

00:28:59.000 I mean, there was this thing with Vox where Carlos Meza was Minimizing the impact of Antifa and kind of joking around about it and making it seem like it's just no big deal. 0.96

00:29:15.000 And he got really upset because Steven Crowder was making fun of the fact that he's gay and the fact that he talks with a lisp and that Crowder mentioned that along with mocking his stance on Antifa.

00:29:25.000 I think? 0.89

00:29:47.000 It's so ironic to call yourself an anti-fascist when you're literally enforcing your own particular ideology to the point of violence and you're wearing masks and you're running around hitting people and pretending that you're being inundated with Nazis and white supremacists and that this is all necessary.

00:30:06.000 Like that old man that was just driving and they're directing traffic and forcing him to obey them.

00:30:12.000 And then when he doesn't want to, they chase after him and assault him. 0.99

00:30:16.000 It's fucking bananas. 0.99

00:30:17.000 And the fact that this city has not stepped in and recognized that they have a real problem because this has got momentum behind it. 0.99

00:30:25.000 And the people that are involved that are non-violent, you gotta speak up.

00:30:30.000 They've gotta speak up.

00:30:31.000 If you're a person that really believes that there shouldn't be homophobia and there shouldn't be violence and there shouldn't be white supremacy, good for you!

00:30:39.000 You probably got involved in this for all the right reasons.

00:30:42.000 But if you don't recognize that someone like you, yourself, who is A person of a different ethnicity.

00:30:49.000 You're not a white person.

00:30:50.000 You're a Vietnamese. 0.99

00:30:51.000 You're a gay man. 1.00

00:30:52.000 You got assaulted for no reason. 0.97

00:30:54.000 You didn't do anything.

00:30:55.000 I mean, it's almost like a test of where do your values truly lie.

00:31:00.000 And if you think it's okay for a person like you to just get assaulted for no reason, you are the problem. 0.97

00:31:07.000 You're the problem. 0.99

00:31:08.000 Your mindset is the problem. 0.99

00:31:10.000 It's not whether or not there should be white supremacy.

00:31:12.000 Of course there shouldn't be.

00:31:14.000 It's not whether or not there shouldn't be...

00:31:16.000 People be able to freely express themselves.

00:31:18.000 Of course there should be.

00:31:19.000 That is not what the issue is.

00:31:21.000 What the issue is, is group mob mentality.

00:31:24.000 When you get people together and you let them wear masks and you tell them that they're fighting against some evil, and then they feel justified in hitting a person like you. 0.93

00:31:33.000 It is really sickening.

00:31:35.000 And there's this diffusion of responsibility thing that happens when one person hits you and everybody feels like it's okay to hit you.

00:31:41.000 It's a mob mentality thing.

00:31:43.000 It is extremely common with human beings.

00:31:46.000 I've been in mob situations.

00:31:48.000 It's terrifying because you feel it in the air.

00:31:51.000 You feel the chaos in the air when you're in some sort of a large-scale brawl-type situation.

00:31:57.000 Anything can happen.

00:31:58.000 People just run up on people and start punching them.

00:32:01.000 It's not like two people alone in an open area where they can talk and work things out.

00:32:08.000 No, it's chaos.

00:32:09.000 And there's some weird animal activity.

00:32:11.000 There's some weird animal instinct aspect to it that is very unique to humans. 0.99

00:32:17.000 And when you see something like this and see a guy like you just getting peppered with milkshakes and punched in the head, it's fucking disturbing. 0.92

00:32:25.000 And for these people to dismiss that and not stand out, not stand up and say, hey, this is not what we're supposed to be about. 0.98

00:32:32.000 This is not what I signed up for.

00:32:34.000 They become a part of the problem.

00:32:35.000 I'm sure there's people listening to this that are upset at this.

00:32:38.000 Because maybe you support Antifa.

00:32:41.000 You support their ideology.

00:32:43.000 Think about what you actually support.

00:32:45.000 Think about what this is really all about. 1.00

00:32:47.000 What you shouldn't be supporting is people wearing masks, running around fucking hitting people. 1.00

00:32:52.000 You ain't changing shit with that. 1.00

00:32:54.000 All you're going to do is call for more people with masks from the other side. 0.97

00:32:57.000 If people feel like right-wing people are being attacked, and I don't think you're even right-wing, are you?

00:33:04.000 I mean, what are you? 0.66

00:33:05.000 If you had a gun to your head or a mace to your face, What would you – would you say you're a centrist? 0.99

00:33:11.000 What would you say? 0.98

00:33:12.000 I think it's fair to describe me as center-right.

00:33:14.000 Center-right.

00:33:15.000 Okay.

00:33:15.000 Which is fine.

00:33:16.000 It should be okay.

00:33:18.000 I mean, we should be allowed to have disagreements of ideologies and of political persuasions.

00:33:25.000 Political – But this is, it's twisted.

00:33:30.000 And it's twisted the way it's being depicted in the media.

00:33:34.000 It's very strange how it's being dismissed.

00:33:36.000 It's very strange in that there's really people in 2019 debating whether or not it's okay to assault journalists. 0.99

00:33:44.000 It's fucking madness. 0.98

00:33:45.000 Well, we've been seeing the build-up to this for years. 1.00

00:33:49.000 Political violence coming from the left is seen as moral.

00:33:55.000 And unfortunately, even those working in mainstream media have at times excused or found that type of violence good.

00:34:04.000 I'm thinking of Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon at CNN. And I wonder if that played a role in why they were the only center-left broadcast news network to invite me on to speak.

00:34:20.000 No other leftist center media has invited me on to any of those shows.

00:34:26.000 When they had you on to speak, what was their attitude about all this?

00:34:29.000 I think the host was very respectful and fair.

00:34:34.000 Who was it?

00:34:36.000 John Brennan, I think.

00:34:39.000 So you think they were respectful and fair.

00:34:42.000 Did it bother you that people like Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon had openly supported Antifa?

00:34:50.000 It did.

00:34:51.000 I mean, this kind of encouraged me to continue doing my work months ago, even last year when I was getting threatened, because it seemed like...

00:35:02.000 I don't think Chris or Don actually understand...

00:35:07.000 I think they're ignorant about Antifa. 0.85

00:35:09.000 I think you're right. 0.87

00:35:09.000 You know, they believe the propaganda about them that it's just an anti-fascist movement. 0.87

00:35:14.000 Well, the name by itself...

00:35:17.000 I'm hoping that, like, even with my injuries, and some you can see, some you can't, I'm continuing to force myself to do all these media engagements because I want the needle on the conversations about Antifa to move,

00:35:34.000 to change.

00:35:35.000 Like, this is...

00:35:37.000 Not just a movement of people masking up and starting random violence on the streets.

00:35:45.000 The violence isn't just...

00:35:47.000 It is not arbitrary.

00:35:48.000 It's working towards their goal.

00:35:50.000 It's a movement of violent, radical anarchists and communists.

00:35:54.000 And they're agitating for political revolution.

00:35:58.000 And violence is part of their modus operandi.

00:36:00.000 It's not a bug.

00:36:01.000 It's the future of what they do.

00:36:03.000 So, I don't know if people recognize how dangerous this is, this movement.

00:36:08.000 And the DHS since 2016 has described some of Antifa's activities as domestic terrorist violence.

00:36:14.000 So, the fact that they're able to openly organize and recruit on social media is baffling to me.

00:36:23.000 I'm wondering, like...

00:36:25.000 There's such a huge blind spot for far-left militancy, not just in mainstream media, but also in big tech.

00:36:32.000 Do you think this is because Trump is president and because so many people oppose Trump as president, that the idea of far-left militancy is in opposition to what they oppose?

00:36:41.000 So they feel like the enemy of my enemy is my friend?

00:36:44.000 That's exactly what it is, I think.

00:36:48.000 Eric Weinstein had a great point about this, and he said one of the real issues is the cowards of the left and the cowards of the right that are allowing the extremists to do the work for them.

00:37:00.000 So when people see someone like the Proud Boys running around attacking people, even the Proud Boys, you have to realize that they started off as a joke.

00:37:08.000 Like when Gavin McGinnis first came up with the idea of the Proud Boys, it was literally a joke.

00:37:14.000 And it became an actual organization for fun.

00:37:18.000 And then people joined it that didn't think it was a joke.

00:37:21.000 And then people joined it and started taking it in a deeper and deeper direction.

00:37:24.000 And he eventually disavowed himself and abandoned the group.

00:37:28.000 I bet you see the same thing with Antifa. 0.99

00:37:31.000 I bet the idea initially was, hey, we see these tiki torch carrying assholes in Charlottesville. 0.99

00:37:38.000 We see that guy with the car ran over the girl who was a protester and killed her. 1.00

00:37:41.000 Like, this fucking shit has got to stop, so we have to organize. 1.00

00:37:44.000 We have to do something. 1.00

00:37:45.000 And then what happens?

00:37:46.000 You get people in masks, and you get people justified, and then you get people that support those people, and then you get the extremists.

00:37:53.000 And the extremists who are not disavowed, who are not...

00:37:56.000 There's no one speaking out against them from the left. 0.99

00:38:00.000 There's no one saying, hey, this shit has got to stop because they want them to do their dirty work for them. 0.98

00:38:05.000 They want them to push the envelope and push the agenda and get their ideology moving in the right direction, even if it's done through methods that they don't agree with. 0.99

00:38:15.000 And that's where it gets horrible.

00:38:18.000 I see these people that are involved in this, and I know for a fact just by watching them move and interact with each other, they don't understand violence.

00:38:25.000 They don't.

00:38:26.000 They're not good at it.

00:38:27.000 They don't understand it.

00:38:28.000 This is like role play.

00:38:30.000 It's like cosplay.

00:38:31.000 And you're gonna get real violence in return from people who actually know how to do it.

00:38:38.000 And if you look at violence from the left and violence from the right, violence from the right scares me a whole lot more.

00:38:43.000 They're a lot more armed.

00:38:44.000 They're more dangerous human beings in general.

00:38:48.000 And I think that if this keeps happening and people from the right feel threatened and their lifestyle feels threatened and their ideologies feel threatened, you're going to get people meeting at these things and it's going to be more than just people throwing mace and milkshakes at each other.

00:39:02.000 It's going to be people showing up ready for actual combat. 0.95

00:39:05.000 That's fucking terrifying! 0.99

00:39:07.000 It's fucking terrifying. 1.00

00:39:08.000 And this idea that you could just run around hitting people and not have any consequences. 0.99

00:39:13.000 It's just like the way a child looks at violence.

00:39:15.000 This is what bothers me so much.

00:39:17.000 If you looked at their core tenets of what they want to do and if they wanted to accomplish that through political negotiation and through conversation and rallies and speeches, fine.

00:39:29.000 That's fine.

00:39:30.000 But when you have people wearing masks hitting and macing people, You've crossed the line into the land of no return.

00:39:37.000 And you've called out to people who oppose you.

00:39:41.000 You've challenged them to come and do the same.

00:39:43.000 And this is how violence begets greater violence. 0.99

00:39:47.000 It's fucking dangerous. 0.99

00:39:48.000 It's really dangerous. 1.00

00:39:50.000 Violence does not exist in a vacuum.

00:39:52.000 You can't just have a little bit of violence and then there's no repercussions.

00:39:55.000 People react to that.

00:39:57.000 There's people that watch those videos, watch you get punched, and there is no justification for that.

00:40:02.000 When you see someone like yourself who's a small person, slight in stature, not violent in any way, and you're not even swinging back.

00:40:10.000 You're just taking it and trying to protect yourself. 1.00

00:40:14.000 People get infuriated by that and there's people right now I guarantee you who saw that video who are thinking what I would do if I was there I'd fucking shoot all of them or I'd beat them all to death with baseball bats or I'd run them over with my car or do things and the Unhinged amongst the right who feel like this is a in opposition of their ideology They're gonna show up someday and when that happens people are gonna die and This is fucking terrible. 0.98

00:40:40.000 And this is where the mayor and the police, they have not done their job. 0.98

00:40:44.000 I believe the police, when they say that they've been handcuffed, and maybe the mayor just didn't have an idea of where this would all go.

00:40:50.000 But now you do.

00:40:52.000 The mayor has been in office now for three years and he finally did a press conference two days ago, nine days after my attack, to address this controversy, right?

00:41:03.000 And what was so frustrating is that the police chief had publicly stated that she thinks the city or the state should adopt a law that...

00:41:18.000 Makes it illegal to wear a mask while committing a crime.

00:41:21.000 That should be a no-brainer.

00:41:23.000 It's shocking that in Portland...

00:41:24.000 I got a better idea.

00:41:25.000 How about you can't wear a mask in public at these events?

00:41:28.000 Because you can say you can't wear a mask while committing a crime.

00:41:33.000 You're wearing a mask. 1.00

00:41:34.000 Who the fuck do you know committed a crime? 1.00

00:41:36.000 Unless you take the mask off, then you can't even identify them. 1.00

00:41:39.000 It's stupid. 1.00

00:41:39.000 You can't wear a mask. 1.00

00:41:41.000 Yeah, so this sounds like a baseline policy that you should start advocating for, right?

00:41:48.000 Yeah, it's like, don't kick babies.

00:41:49.000 Yeah, well, the mayor said he hasn't decided if he supported it.

00:41:53.000 He hasn't decided if he supported whether or not it should be illegal to wear a mask while you're committing a crime?

00:41:58.000 That's hilarious.

00:41:59.000 And he had no policy proposals.

00:42:01.000 And he spoke as if it was his first day in office when this is becoming routine now.

00:42:07.000 It's almost banal in Portland.

00:42:09.000 And Portland is a harbinger and a warning.

00:42:12.000 To what can happen in other cities when you have those in the upper echelons of governance turning a blind eye to far-left militancy and just letting these thugs go on the street and beat people.

00:42:30.000 Just imagine if there was the case, if they were doing that about far-right militancy.

00:42:34.000 Imagine if there were far-right people.

00:42:37.000 Who are doing this and committing violence and the government was just like, well, you know, I'm not sure if they shouldn't be allowed to wear masks while they commit crimes. 0.77

00:42:46.000 People would be freaking the fuck out.

00:42:48.000 It's the weird justification of this stuff that's so disturbing. 0.95

00:42:53.000 And I fucking love Portland. 0.52

00:42:55.000 It's one of my favorite places. 0.98

00:42:56.000 It's great.

00:42:57.000 The city's great. 0.98

00:42:58.000 I mean, it's fucking cool people. 0.92

00:43:00.000 It's not all of them that are involved in this. 0.97

00:43:02.000 It's a very small number, and even amongst the small number, it's the very small number of them that are radical, that are violent.

00:43:11.000 When you look at the people that are attacking you, not to minimize it, but it's very few.

00:43:15.000 You look at that video, it's a couple people out of thousands of people that are in that group.

00:43:20.000 There's a few people that are attacking you.

00:43:21.000 There's about a dozen.

00:43:23.000 Was it really?

00:43:24.000 Yes.

00:43:24.000 Okay, if you count throwing milkshakes, but actually hitting you, how many people do you think hit you?

00:43:29.000 I'm not sure.

00:43:31.000 Three?

00:43:32.000 Four?

00:43:32.000 Maybe?

00:43:33.000 Something like that?

00:43:34.000 Okay.

00:43:35.000 That's the problem. 1.00

00:43:36.000 The problem is these fucking assholes. 1.00

00:43:38.000 It's not the people that disagree with you. 1.00

00:43:40.000 It's the people that think you should be able to throw milkshakes at people.

00:43:42.000 And guys like Carlos Mesa who don't think it's a big deal to throw milkshakes at people. 0.99

00:43:46.000 It's a fucking big deal. 0.98

00:43:47.000 It's a big deal because it calls for a response. 1.00

00:43:50.000 This is why it's a big deal.

00:43:52.000 And people don't understand assault.

00:43:54.000 They don't understand violence.

00:43:55.000 You can't just do that. 0.98

00:43:57.000 You live in some comic book world or some fucking Disney show world where you can just throw a milkshake at someone and they don't do anything. 1.00

00:44:03.000 They're going to turn around and punch you in your fucking face. 1.00

00:44:06.000 And then what happens? 1.00

00:44:07.000 Well, you might fall and hit your head and die. 0.93

00:44:09.000 Because that's real.

00:44:09.000 That's the real world we live in.

00:44:11.000 Or you might cause a giant brawl because people don't want to be hit with milkshakes.

00:44:15.000 Or there's enough of you where you think you can get away with it. 0.67

00:44:19.000 So you're an awful bully, and you're throwing milkshakes at someone because you don't like what they stand for. 0.51

00:44:23.000 And you're meeting in a public place, and you're disagreeing about something. 0.98

00:44:26.000 So to right this disagreement, you're assaulting people.

00:44:30.000 Well, for that very reason, Antifa never engages in a quote-unquote fair fight one-on-one.

00:44:36.000 What they do usually, as a group while masked up, one or several of them will distract the person either by speaking to them perhaps or blinding them with the chemical spray, and then they take turns beating.

00:44:51.000 So there's even no opportunity to...

00:44:57.000 You know, you don't even know how many people are hitting you at that point.

00:44:59.000 So that's what they do.

00:45:00.000 Blind you, and then attack. 1.00

00:45:03.000 It's so scary. 1.00

00:45:05.000 Because it's so dumb. 0.99

00:45:06.000 It's not just scary because you watching what happened to you was scary. 1.00

00:45:10.000 And watching that old man who got hit in the head with a crowbar, it's fucking horrific. 0.98

00:45:14.000 All that stuff is horrific. 0.98

00:45:15.000 Apparently that guy had pulled out some sort of a rod and was swinging at people before he got hit with a crowbar.

00:45:21.000 I do not know.

00:45:22.000 But I do know when you start hitting people in the head with crowbars, that is the beginning of the end. 0.99

00:45:27.000 Horrible, horrible shit happens in response to that, and it hasn't yet, but this is 10 days ago. 0.99

00:45:33.000 Who knows what's going to happen if there's another one of these rallies, and you get people from the far right who organized. 0.99

00:45:38.000 This is when the Proud Boys really radicalized.

00:45:42.000 They radicalized to go against Antifa. 1.00

00:45:45.000 They were attacked, they attacked them, and then it became this fucking shit show that you're seeing right now. 0.99

00:45:51.000 Yeah, I want to state for the record, though, the violence that happened after I was beat up was involving the men's rights activist group at Antifa. 0.99

00:46:01.000 Proud Boys was holding, they held a separate event in a different part of the city.

00:46:06.000 As far as I know, they did not, there was no conflict with them.

00:46:10.000 In this particular event?

00:46:12.000 Yeah, in this particular event.

00:46:12.000 So, who was the men's rights guy?

00:46:14.000 It was actually a woman. 1.00

00:46:16.000 A woman who's a men's rights person? 0.99

00:46:17.000 Yes.

00:46:18.000 That's hilarious. 1.00

00:46:18.000 She must love dick. 1.00

00:46:20.000 Right? 1.00

00:46:21.000 If you had a guess.

00:46:24.000 No comments.

00:46:26.000 Sorry, I'm a comedian.

00:46:27.000 Couldn't help it.

00:46:29.000 You don't even have to say her name.

00:46:30.000 So she organized this thing? 0.57

00:46:34.000 Yeah, I would say...

00:46:35.000 Here's the other thing.

00:46:40.000 What needs to be stated as well about, I guess, the right-wing movements that are in Portland or come to Portland to do these events, there's an element of being provocative as well.

00:46:51.000 But that should never, ever justify the violence.

00:46:55.000 Explain what you mean by being a provocateur.

00:46:59.000 Well, for example, holding an event in the middle of downtown, titling it Justice for Victims of Domestic Terrorism, and then having a picture of Antifa.

00:47:14.000 They're inviting them.

00:47:16.000 Yes.

00:47:16.000 It causes a reaction.

00:47:20.000 So there's an element of coming in and seeing, let's enrage these lunatics on the far left or whatever.

00:47:32.000 But at the same time, I want to make sure I state that just because somebody is...

00:47:38.000 Quote, unquote, provocateur in the words of the writing that it's unfortunate that people now find that that's justification for you to react violently.

00:47:50.000 Well, I think, again, it's a small percentage of people that find this justification.

00:47:54.000 When you look at the number of people that were there, what is it?

00:47:56.000 Thousands?

00:47:57.000 Thousands of people?

00:47:58.000 How many people actually engaged in violence?

00:48:01.000 Small number, but...

00:48:02.000 Small number.

00:48:03.000 That's the problem.

00:48:04.000 It's important to note that they got morale from the crowd who were cheering them on. 0.99

00:48:09.000 The cowards. 0.98

00:48:10.000 The cowards who don't disavow this horrific action. 0.99

00:48:13.000 They cheered them on, laughed and clapped. 0.97

00:48:31.000 Yeah, it's become a game.

00:48:38.000 It's become a game and it's become a gigantic team war.

00:48:42.000 There's our team versus their team.

00:48:44.000 It's literally like playing a childhood game.

00:48:48.000 It's really disturbing, man.

00:48:50.000 And so, since this, has anyone from Antifa apologized about what happened to you or disavowed the actions of these few extreme violent people?

00:49:01.000 Of course not.

00:49:03.000 Antifa has an iron fist on the people who support its movements.

00:49:08.000 They don't allow any type of dissent.

00:49:10.000 Actually, in their press releases, you can call them, they explicitly state that Even, basically, even if you disagree with our tactics, you will not publicly state it.

00:49:22.000 It's to create, I guess, this image of unity, right?

00:49:26.000 For a quote-unquote...

00:49:27.000 Even if you disagree inside the organization?

00:49:29.000 Yes.

00:49:29.000 So how organized are they?

00:49:32.000 Do they have a leader?

00:49:35.000 In terms of Antifa, as we understand it today, really crystallized only after 2016. There's been very little academic research into how they actually organized.

00:49:45.000 But basically, as a movement, they have essentially cells across the country that are semi-autonomous, united by an ideology of anarcho-communism and their support for violence.

00:49:59.000 So...

00:50:01.000 It's not so much a group itself.

00:50:04.000 It's the people who are part of that movement are drawn from other actual groups.

00:50:07.000 They draw from the DSA. They draw from various workers unions, other anarchist groups.

00:50:13.000 And like other terrorist entities, they have processes to radicalize sympathizers, essentially.

00:50:25.000 They have their own literature as well.

00:50:27.000 And so it's much more organized than people give them credit for.

00:50:32.000 They think of them as just, you know, people showing up to fight on the street.

00:50:37.000 There's meaning to that violence and there's literature to back it up.

00:50:42.000 And they actively recruit people to join the movement.

00:50:48.000 So, I've been asked, do you think the federal authorities should step in?

00:50:52.000 My response is, I think it's come to the point that they do, because with Antifa, it's beyond what local authorities can do, because a lot of these people...

00:51:08.000 I think?

00:51:27.000 The DOJ needs to step in. 0.76

00:51:29.000 I think it's gotten to that point.

00:51:31.000 And with 2020 coming up soon, there could be potential for a lot more political violence if the election's results don't go as they wish.

00:51:44.000 Well, that's an obvious one, considering the fact that this all became a thing after Trump was elected.

00:51:50.000 Yes.

00:51:51.000 If the DOJ did step in, what do you think they could do?

00:52:00.000 Do you believe in the ability to meet up and express yourself publicly and the ability to protest and the ability to just get together and have groups and express yourself?

00:52:19.000 Yes.

00:52:20.000 However, that's not just what Antifa does.

00:52:23.000 Like I said, the violence is a feature of their movement.

00:52:26.000 So what federal authorities can do— Can I stop you there?

00:52:29.000 When you say the violence is a feature of their movement, do they have anything written, like the tenets of their movement, where they say that violence is acceptable?

00:52:40.000 There's a book called The Anti-Fascist Handbook.

00:52:44.000 It's written by Mark Bray.

00:52:46.000 He's an academic at Dartmouth.

00:52:48.000 He is, I would call him, one of Antifa's chief ideologues.

00:52:54.000 So, not only does he explain what Antifa does, and in his writings he makes it very clear that the quote-unquote self-defense is what justifies the offense of violence.

00:53:06.000 He actually argues why that's ethical.

00:53:09.000 So, because he's an academic, well-spoken, he's invited onto mainstream media to explain, to basically, like I said earlier, mainstream Antifa.

00:53:20.000 Can you explain what he says?

00:53:23.000 Yes, I highly recommend that people take a look at his book.

00:53:27.000 The Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, was photographed a year ago holding up that book, the Antifa book, and he's been criticized a bit for that, and he deleted that image after my beating.

00:53:41.000 Was holding it up in support?

00:53:42.000 Yeah, he said something about this book or Antifa strikes fear into the heart of Donald Trump.

00:53:49.000 Yeah.

00:53:50.000 So, there's people in government who are sympathetic to Antifa.

00:53:55.000 But this professor, can you explain what he says?

00:54:00.000 He outlines and explains, essentially, why Antifa's violence is ethical.

00:54:10.000 That it's...

00:54:13.000 Because they're opposing fascism, and fascism is a violent movement, this is sort of a preemptive move.

00:54:20.000 That word fascism, it is a problem, right?

00:54:24.000 Yes.

00:54:24.000 Because it seems like that's definitely something you should oppose.

00:54:28.000 But what's the actual definition of fascism?

00:54:32.000 Fascism as a far-right political ideology, from what I understand, is...

00:55:04.000 Forcible suppression of opposition is what they're doing.

00:55:11.000 Strong regimentation of society.

00:55:13.000 I mean, they're literally telling people how to behave and what they will tolerate.

00:55:20.000 I know it's not right-wing ideology, but it's almost like fascism.

00:55:24.000 And I'm sure there's other definitions of fascism.

00:55:27.000 The idea of supporting someone who opposes fascism sounds wonderful.

00:55:32.000 Sounds great.

00:55:32.000 Let's stop fascism.

00:55:34.000 But are we really experiencing authoritarian ultra-nationalism characterized by dictatorial power in this country?

00:55:42.000 I mean, is that a fair thing to say?

00:55:45.000 I know people don't like Donald Trump.

00:55:47.000 I know people don't like right-wing ideologies running this country.

00:55:49.000 I understand that.

00:55:51.000 But this is not what's happening.

00:55:56.000 Yeah, the issue, like, fascism, as defined by political theorists who have been researching this for decades, it has a particular definition and meaning, and I think that summarizes it pretty well.

00:56:10.000 I'm very concerned that people use it so flippantly to just refer to the right or to even authoritarianism.

00:56:17.000 Like, there's much more to it than just being authoritarian.

00:56:20.000 There's all those other components.

00:56:22.000 And it's important to state that Antifa is not just opposed to the far right or the right.

00:56:29.000 They're also against liberal democracy.

00:56:31.000 There's a reason why they hate the police so much, hate border enforcement, and hate the rule of law.

00:56:38.000 They're against the concept of the nation state as we understand it.

00:56:43.000 And they're working to dismantle that, to delegitimize it.

00:56:46.000 So, this is what I mean when I say it's a dangerous ideology that for now, you know, enemy my enemy is your friend.

00:56:56.000 But at some point, if this movement becomes bigger, more mainstream, and more people are sympathetic, at some point it's going to come back against the moderate left.

00:57:07.000 Because these people, they want to see the destruction of the nation.

00:57:16.000 They want to see the destruction of the nation-state for what purpose?

00:57:19.000 They want anarchy?

00:57:19.000 Yes.

00:57:21.000 So they're political anarchists, social anarchists.

00:57:24.000 They don't want borders.

00:57:25.000 They don't want nations.

00:57:27.000 They don't want police.

00:57:28.000 Correct.

00:57:29.000 What do they want?

00:57:33.000 I mean, what do they expect?

00:57:36.000 What's the ultimate goal?

00:57:37.000 They seem to believe in...

00:57:43.000 Utopian Marxist ideas, right?

00:57:46.000 Of this redistribution of wealth where we can only be truly equal and egalitarian when we dismantle wealth.

00:57:57.000 Everything about the country.

00:57:58.000 So not just, you know, its institutions, the rule of law, but the state itself.

00:58:02.000 Like everything just has to be broken down and start over because it's irredeemable.

00:58:08.000 I'm not quite sure if, I mean, they've, you know, Antifa...

00:58:14.000 I can't think of where they have had, if there's any somewhat comparable examples around the world of what it looks like for them to do state building, right?

00:58:24.000 So we don't know what it would actually look like, but the examples we see from these smaller anecdotes is chaos and anarchy, like absolute chaos, and violent suppression of opposing views.

00:58:43.000 Indiscriminate violence at times.

00:58:47.000 I wonder, and what I've been asking over and over, is how many more people have to be drawn into, have to be victims of this violence before something changes.

00:59:00.000 In Portland now, we've had three years of this, and literally no policy changes have happened.

00:59:07.000 No even proposals have even been accepted by the mayor.

00:59:11.000 The previous mayor was...

00:59:12.000 What was his political persuasion?

00:59:15.000 Or her?

00:59:16.000 I don't even know who he was.

00:59:17.000 The people who become elected mayor in Portland are typically establishment Democrats, right?

00:59:23.000 So they themselves are moderate, very much in the vein of a Hillary Clinton type of thing.

00:59:30.000 But there's a constituency in Portland that they have to play to for votes, which is the...

00:59:53.000 I think?

01:00:01.000 Patriot Prayer is one of the other right-wing movements in and around Portland that have held pro-Trump events in town that Antifa comes to fight and oppose.

01:00:13.000 And how do those turn out?

01:00:16.000 They devolve into riots.

01:00:19.000 And the police allow this?

01:00:22.000 They allow it through their inaction.

01:00:29.000 It's interesting to see a city that's gone so far off the rails, like Portland, in this regard, with this issue.

01:00:37.000 When you see this inaction, and what the consequences are, and how it happens, and particularly for a person like you, you physically see it, you personally see it.

01:00:49.000 Are you going to continue to do these things?

01:00:53.000 Because it seems like you're obviously a target now.

01:00:55.000 Yeah.

01:00:56.000 When I was asked this in my interviews this week, last week, the response that comes to my mind right away is, of course I'm going to continue doing it.

01:01:09.000 These people have threatened me before.

01:01:10.000 I've been attacked before.

01:01:12.000 I'm not going to be cowed.

01:01:13.000 I'm going to continue.

01:01:14.000 I won't be intimidated.

01:01:16.000 But with the brain injury that they gave me, it's like, I can't continue doing it the same way as I did before and being naive to think that police would actually uphold the rule of law.

01:01:30.000 They gave me a brain injury and like I never had one before but I'm dealing with some cognitive and neurological issues.

01:01:37.000 Like what?

01:01:39.000 Memory issues, I have upcoming neurophysical therapy as well as speech therapy.

01:01:45.000 So as much as on the surface I have improved a lot since the beating, there are some long-term consequences that I'm going to have to work through.

01:01:59.000 You know, I have, to be honest, I have certain fears and anxieties of being in Portland.

01:02:05.000 I've continued to receive threats, violent threats, and they've been reported to police and just people promising to make sure next time that I won't even be able to walk away, that they will repeat what happened to me when they see me on the streets.

01:02:18.000 Have they caught the people that did this to you?

01:02:21.000 So it's been more than 10 days since my beating.

01:02:25.000 There have been no arrests.

01:02:27.000 I don't know where the police are in the investigation.

01:02:30.000 They haven't been keeping me informed.

01:02:32.000 There was a photograph of someone they released.

01:02:36.000 Yeah, so the Portland police released photos of potential suspects and asking for help in identifying.

01:02:42.000 One was unmasked, two of them were masked.

01:02:46.000 And I forgot to say earlier that in addition to the beating, they robbed me of my camera equipment.

01:02:52.000 So that was my evidence for that day.

01:02:55.000 And I tried so hard to hold on to it, but I couldn't.

01:03:01.000 What about you attending this with security?

01:03:04.000 Have you thought about doing that?

01:03:05.000 Yeah, so moving forward, once I feel well enough and once I'm cleared by the doctors, it may be worth it to cover these events but with professional security.

01:03:20.000 Gorillas.

01:03:21.000 Big giant dudes.

01:03:22.000 Would they wear armor?

01:03:25.000 What would you have?

01:03:27.000 How far would you take this?

01:03:30.000 I don't know.

01:03:30.000 How far do you think I should take it?

01:03:32.000 I don't think you should go to those things anymore.

01:03:34.000 Okay.

01:03:35.000 I mean, it seems like you've been...

01:03:37.000 I mean, it is part of your job.

01:03:40.000 You're a journalist.

01:03:41.000 But it seems like you've been singled out and targeted, and it seems like they don't have any problem justifying attacking you and assaulting you.

01:03:48.000 If I was going to go, I'd bring the biggest, baddest dudes that I could find.

01:03:54.000 And a bunch of them.

01:03:55.000 And have them surround you.

01:03:56.000 And have them protect you.

01:03:58.000 What's it tell you about America in 2019?

01:04:01.000 I don't think it's America.

01:04:02.000 I think it's this one particular area, and this one particular group, and not even the group. 0.99

01:04:07.000 I think it's the most ridiculous people in that group. 0.96

01:04:12.000 I think most of these people that probably are a part of this really don't want fascists. 0.99

01:04:16.000 And they really don't want some awful right-wing totalitarian regime running this country and marginalized people of color, gay people and immigrants and all those things that I support 100%.

01:04:30.000 I'm left-wing.

01:04:31.000 I mean, I would be on their side ideologically about a lot of things.

01:04:35.000 It's the implementation of it that I have the biggest problem with.

01:04:39.000 It's the group mentality.

01:04:40.000 It's the wearing the masks.

01:04:41.000 It's the assaults.

01:04:42.000 It's the not understanding the consequences of violence.

01:04:45.000 All these things.

01:04:46.000 This is what I have a problem with.

01:04:47.000 The way the mayor allows this to take place.

01:04:50.000 The way he handcuffs the police.

01:04:51.000 That is what I have a problem with.

01:04:54.000 It's not that they don't want horrible people running the government and running the world.

01:04:59.000 I understand that.

01:05:00.000 That makes sense.

01:05:01.000 But you're not for the dismantling of the nation state, right?

01:05:04.000 Nope.

01:05:04.000 No.

01:05:05.000 No, I'm not.

01:05:06.000 Or the breakdown of democracy?

01:05:07.000 No.

01:05:07.000 Yeah, so these are the points that I'm trying to hit on.

01:05:10.000 Those are the points that are hidden, right?

01:05:12.000 These are important things that make up the ideology of ANTIFA. And the larger, those who are sympathetic because of the anti-fascist aspect or the anti-right wing, they are ignorant of it.

01:05:26.000 And I hope to become more aware of that.

01:05:28.000 I think that's what's important about your work.

01:05:30.000 That's what's important about these discussions.

01:05:32.000 That's what's important about people getting the word and understanding what this really means, not what it seems on paper.

01:05:39.000 It's like, we're the anti-Nazi movement. 0.99

01:05:41.000 Well, who the fuck could go against that? 0.99

01:05:43.000 Of course you're anti-Nazi. 0.99

01:05:45.000 Everybody should be.

01:05:47.000 That's what it seems like.

01:05:48.000 Well, we're anti-fascist.

01:05:50.000 Good.

01:05:50.000 We don't want fascists.

01:05:52.000 I think that's what Chris Cuomo was saying.

01:05:53.000 I think that's what Don Lemon was saying.

01:05:55.000 I think they're too busy.

01:05:56.000 I don't think they're really investigating this.

01:05:58.000 I don't think they're deep diving and understanding the ideology at its core, the way you're describing it. 0.96

01:06:03.000 And whoever that professor was that you were discussing that is somehow or another Condoning violence, that is ridiculous. 0.99

01:06:12.000 Anyone who considers themselves an intellectual who condones violence, all this punch-a-Nazi stuff, goddammit, you don't understand violence. 0.99

01:06:22.000 You don't know what you're talking about. 0.96

01:06:24.000 You don't understand the human condition, because if you understood violence, it's the last thing you would ever be calling for.

01:06:30.000 Can I talk about the next step of what's next for me?

01:06:34.000 So a lot of people listening and are frustrated and have expressed support are asking, well, what can I do?

01:06:42.000 I'm just one person.

01:06:43.000 And this is the power now.

01:06:45.000 We live in a time where there's crowdfunding.

01:06:47.000 And with all the points that we brought up earlier, it seems to...

01:07:04.000 I'm working with Harmeet Dillon.

01:07:08.000 She represented James Damore.

01:07:10.000 She's taken me on as the first client for the non-profit that she started.

01:07:16.000 If you go to PubliusLex.com, you'll see information for how you can donate.

01:07:25.000 And anything helps.

01:07:30.000 Lawsuits, if they happen against the city or mayor or police department, cost a lot of money and takes a lot of time.

01:07:38.000 There's a lot of overhead costs and the amount of people you have to take in to do your investigations.

01:07:45.000 So there's an opportunity for the public to get involved.

01:07:49.000 I don't want the story to pass just about Andy got beat up, so what?

01:07:54.000 Let's move on.

01:07:55.000 But rather...

01:07:56.000 There's systemic issues happening in Portland and there are implications for the rest of the country.

01:08:03.000 What do you think is going on with media that is supporting this attack on you?

01:08:11.000 Because I've seen so many journalists dismiss this as being not a big deal.

01:08:18.000 Why do you think that anybody would look at something like that where someone's being beaten publicly and not think it's a big deal?

01:08:26.000 What do you think is behind that?

01:08:31.000 Extremist ideologies are very good at dehumanizing their opposition.

01:08:37.000 And that's what Antifa does. 0.99

01:08:38.000 So there's been a lot of disinformation, misinformation put out about me.

01:08:44.000 They say, for example, I'm not really a journalist.

01:08:46.000 I'm just a far-right provocateur.

01:08:49.000 I'm somebody who's sympathetic to Nazis.

01:08:52.000 And so when you put these ideas out that not only are lies, but are meant to Remove one's humanity.

01:09:02.000 They just become, you know, like Andy is no longer Andy.

01:09:05.000 Andy is the face of far-right ideology.

01:09:08.000 And it makes people feel comfortable with violence against that.

01:09:12.000 And it was so disheartening to see so many writers come out and say things like...

01:09:20.000 I don't really support what happened to Andy, but he's done far worse.

01:09:24.000 He was a provocateur, his writings.

01:09:26.000 He came and he got exactly what he was looking for.

01:09:30.000 What happened to me should happen to nobody, much less a journalist, right?

01:09:37.000 This is in a major American city.

01:09:41.000 This is not in Afghanistan or Iraq where the state is weak.

01:09:45.000 We have a strong state.

01:09:46.000 We have police force.

01:09:49.000 Why are the laws not being enforced?

01:09:51.000 Why are citizens having to suffer?

01:09:53.000 Why are there no arrests?

01:09:55.000 Why are there no arrests?

01:09:58.000 It's really absurd.

01:10:00.000 And it's obscene.

01:10:03.000 When is the next one of these things supposed to take place?

01:10:11.000 On the 17th of August is supposedly the next event.

01:10:15.000 I think the Proud Boys have announced that they're encouraging all of their members across the country to fly into Portland. 0.98

01:10:24.000 It's always fucking Portland. 0.99

01:10:26.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:10:27.000 They're kind of reacting, I think, to the 29th of June.

01:10:30.000 So we'll see what happens.

01:10:35.000 I'm concerned.

01:10:36.000 Are you going to go?

01:10:39.000 I don't know.

01:10:41.000 You should go and get a Popemobile.

01:10:43.000 Let him throw milkshakes at the Popemobile. 0.99

01:10:47.000 Get a big old fish tank.

01:10:48.000 Put some wheels on it.

01:10:50.000 Have some giant dudes push you around. 1.00

01:10:53.000 I'm joking around about it, obviously, to try to make light, but do you really think you're going to go?

01:10:58.000 I don't know if I feel safe.

01:11:00.000 And I hate using...

01:11:01.000 Well, you shouldn't feel safe.

01:11:02.000 Well, I hate using the language of the identitarian left.

01:11:06.000 You know, like, I feel unsafe and all that.

01:11:08.000 I'm trying to remain rational.

01:11:09.000 Okay, but you were assaulted twice.

01:11:11.000 And I continue to receive threats.

01:11:13.000 You were assaulted, what, in May?

01:11:15.000 Yes.

01:11:15.000 And then you were assaulted again in June.

01:11:16.000 Yeah.

01:11:17.000 Yeah.

01:11:19.000 So...

01:11:19.000 And you continue to receive threats.

01:11:23.000 Yeah.

01:11:24.000 Yeah.

01:11:26.000 Is this necessary to go to these things to cover them?

01:11:31.000 Do you think maybe that's part of the problem with people like Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo who are talking about this who haven't actually been there?

01:11:39.000 They really don't understand it and maybe you do because you're covering it with boots on the ground?

01:11:43.000 You got it.

01:11:44.000 When you're all the way in New York City and you work for elite media and you always even when you travel to protests you have a very large crew of security around you It removes you a bit from the reality of the situation.

01:11:58.000 And I don't think any of these people who are opining on these mainstream media television shows have actually embedded themselves to covering these violent riots that are happening in Portland or in Berkeley.

01:12:16.000 How many of the people that are involved in Antifa do you think really understand...

01:12:23.000 That they're trying to dismantle the government.

01:12:25.000 Really understand that they want the state to dissolve.

01:12:29.000 I don't have a number for that.

01:12:30.000 It's definitely small.

01:12:31.000 It's the same people who engage.

01:12:33.000 It would probably be around those who are engaging in violence and those who are aiding in that violence.

01:12:39.000 For example, creating shields or whatever, allowing them to hide among them.

01:12:43.000 Those people, I think, understand very much what the ideology is.

01:12:46.000 Those people who come unmasked, you know, and just read the Facebook event page.

01:12:51.000 Opposed fascists, come protect Portland.

01:12:53.000 Those people, I think, are ignorant of the ideology behind the movement and groups that are organizing these events.

01:13:00.000 I can't put a number on that.

01:13:02.000 And this is where there needs to be research by academics and think tanks to look into.

01:13:09.000 And this is where federal authorities need to be looking into as well.

01:13:13.000 How are they organized?

01:13:15.000 Where are the businesses that are helping them fund some of their causes?

01:13:19.000 Because when some of their members get arrested, they have money for bail.

01:13:24.000 Who's involved in funneling that money?

01:13:29.000 Who's helping to disperse their literature that they use to radicalize people?

01:13:34.000 This requires research and intelligence gathering, and as far as I know, it's not being done.

01:13:40.000 There's a real concern among some people that we're entering a phase of this country where there's a real possibility Of having some sort of a civil unrest, civil war.

01:13:55.000 When you see something like these Portland events, when you see this kind of chaos, do you think that's a valid concern?

01:14:07.000 Not for something that is across the country but perhaps very regional or to the city itself.

01:14:14.000 And not so much like civil war but the violence that is done and planned by Antifa is meant to make the wider public not just polarize and hate each other but also begin to distrust the institutions that are in place that are meant to uphold democracy.

01:14:36.000 So, the police in Portland have come under fire, for example, not just from the radical left, but a lot of people who are normally very pro-police are finding like, what is wrong with the Portland police?

01:14:49.000 Like, we can't even trust them.

01:14:50.000 So there's...

01:14:54.000 If things just continue, I think the violence will continue to escalate, leading to a death or death.

01:15:01.000 That's my real concern.

01:15:03.000 It's my real concern as well.

01:15:04.000 And you think this is particularly unique to Portland in the way they're treating and addressing it?

01:15:10.000 I'm trying to think of comparable other cities that have had some of these issues.

01:15:31.000 Citizens in the way of danger, the way they were funneled outside of this event led them directly in front of these violent protesters who attacked them, you know, in those footage that went viral that year.

01:15:45.000 Since then, policing tactics have changed in San Jose, as far as I know, and, you know, involved the lawsuit.

01:15:54.000 So, like, sometimes it takes lawsuits for...

01:16:01.000 The local government to start protecting people's civil rights.

01:16:04.000 So right now, as bad as it is, it does seem confined to Portland.

01:16:10.000 We haven't seen, for example, in Berkeley, the type of violence in 2017 when Milo came.

01:16:17.000 That hasn't been repeated for a year and a half now.

01:16:22.000 So...

01:16:25.000 But it takes the political will of those in power to enforce the law, right?

01:16:31.000 So you mentioned lawsuits.

01:16:32.000 What lawsuits are you pursuing?

01:16:35.000 Well, immediately right now, what I would like to see is the city of Portland carry out a full investigation and hold accountable all those who were involved in attacking me or aided in that as well.

01:16:46.000 And then, where the evidence leaves, if this shows that there was dereliction of duty from those in power, then...

01:16:59.000 I reserve my judgment.

01:17:01.000 My lawyer reserves judgment for who, if anyone, gets sued at that point.

01:17:06.000 But right now, I'm very focused on seeing that and putting pressure on the city to arrest people who are responsible and charge them and get convictions as well.

01:17:18.000 Alright, in closing, because I know you've got to get out of here, is there a silver lining to any of this?

01:17:22.000 I mean, do you think that perhaps your assault and the fact that the police didn't intervene is actually allowing people to understand the real significance of this, the real problem of this, that this is a real issue,

01:17:38.000 a gigantic one, in fact, that goes against the core tenets, the value of free expression and the ability to gather and communicate safely in public?

01:17:48.000 As hard as it was for me to see a silver lining when I was laying in hospital with so much pain, there is one.

01:17:58.000 And that is that everybody paid attention to what happened to me.

01:18:04.000 It was a big story.

01:18:05.000 Even the mainstream liberal press could not ignore it.

01:18:09.000 And I'm hoping that from that, it goes beyond just being a headline, but forcing the national discourse to change on how it views and talks about Antifa.

01:18:19.000 We'll see if that happens.

01:18:22.000 I feel encouraged that we're beginning to see some cracks in the way that Antifa has been protected by sympathetic writers and journalists and those in mainstream media.

01:18:34.000 I mean, the fact that Keith Ellison deleted that photo that he showed a year ago, right after it was attacked, I think indicates that even he faces a certain pressure that it may not be good for a mainstream politician to so actively promote this movement.

01:18:54.000 And I hope it continues to move in that direction.

01:18:56.000 If you had a crystal ball and you were looking at the future, what do you think you would see?

01:19:04.000 Well, based on the press conference that the mayor did two days ago, him not having any proposals, it seems like more violence has to happen.

01:19:17.000 All right.

01:19:18.000 Andy, I hope you're wrong.

01:19:20.000 Me too.

01:19:20.000 But thank you for being here.

01:19:22.000 My pleasure.

01:19:23.000 All right.

01:19:24.000 Take it easy.

01:19:24.000 Thank you.

01:19:25.000 Stay safe out there, will you?

01:19:26.000 Thank you.

01:19:27.000 Smile, too.

The Joe Rogan Experience - July 10, 2019

Joe Rogan Experience #1323 - Andy Ngo

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