The Joe Rogan Experience - March 17, 2020


Joe Rogan Experience #1442 - Shannon O'Loughlin

Topics
Cynthia Ann Parker and Comanche life blood quantum DNA and Native American Heritage boarding school history Indian team names and mascots land bridge theory native education and values debate Obama and Indian Country relations Indian gaming success stories Native American futures and sovereignty National Museum of the American Indian and tribal Association on American Indian Affairs rebuilding capacity
Hosted by
Joe Rogan
Mentioned
Obama Those Marshall Chittimacha Custer Tongva Tulsa Jamie Vine Deloria Cynthia Ann Parker Tim Carpenter Kennewick Mann Ronald Reagan Amy Winehouse Stuart Udall Don Miller McIntosh Johnson Chumash Jessica Parker Indian-affairs.org Indian-affairs.org and 30 more
Joe Rogan Experience #1441 - Hugo Martin Joe Rogan Experience #1443 - Jonathan Ward

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 35 minutes

Words per minute

137.89

Word count

21,486

Sentence count

1,850

Harmful content

Misogyny

8

sentences flagged

Toxicity

78

sentences flagged

Hate speech

68

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Shannon O'Loughlin is a native of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma and is the Executive Director of the Association on American Indian Affairs, the oldest non-profit organization serving Indian Country. In this episode, she talks about the history of the American Indian Wars and how they affected the lives of Native Americans. She also discusses the impact of disease and colonization on the Native American population, and how the lack of a Native American genocide can be traced back to the removal of Native American lands and their removal from their lands by the U.S. government, as well as the loss of their cultural and economic value to the white settler-colonialist system. She also talks about how Native Americans have been affected by the policies and practices of the United States government and the way they treated Native Americans in the early 20th century, and why they continue to be so important in American history. She is a dedicated advocate for Native American rights and justice and justice for Native Americans and their rights today. We hope you enjoy listening to this episode and share it with your friends, family, and the ones you care enough to share it on social media! Thank you so much for listening and supporting this podcast! If you like what you hear, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe, share, and tell a friend about what you think of this episode! We'll see you next week with your thoughts on our next episode on the next episode of the podcast. Cheers! Cheers, Caitlynne and Shannon O'Donnell Music: "I'm Too Effing" by John Rocha "The Good Ol' Joe" - The Good O' Joe "The Bad O'Joe" & the Good Ozzie "Peezy" Williams (featuring: "The Peezy & The Bad Owelek" (feat. "Mr. John Rizzi) and "The Man Who Can't See It" by The Good Olie (The Good Owelled Man ( ) by & "The Boy Who Couldn't Do It ( ) by "The Natives" ( ) ( ) and "Amber Sky ( ) . ( . & is a song written and produced and produced by: ) ( ) is a tribute to the late great singer-songwriter and song "Wendy Williams ( )

Transcript

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Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
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00:00:02.000 All right, here we go.
00:00:03.000 Hello, Shannon.
00:00:03.000 What's happening?
00:00:05.000 I'm doing well.
00:00:05.000 How are you?
00:00:06.000 Thanks for being here.
00:00:06.000 Appreciate it.
00:00:07.000 This is an incredible opportunity.
00:00:09.000 I'm glad you're interested in the subject of American Indian history, and I'm glad to be here to talk about it.
00:00:16.000 Yeah, I'm glad you were willing to come here.
00:00:18.000 Yeah, I became fascinated when I, well, I've always been sort of peripherally interested, but never really delved into it until I read Empire of the Summer Moon.
00:00:29.000 And then, you know, have you read that?
00:00:32.000 SG Gwen's book about the Comanches and about the Texas Rangers.
00:00:36.000 And it's such a crazy story that I just became obsessed.
00:00:40.000 And then I read Son of the Morning Star and then I read Black Elk.
00:00:46.000 The Black Elk one was particularly fascinating to me because it details life before Like before they killed Custer to living on reservations to the desperation.
00:00:59.000 Why don't you, before we get started, tell people who you are and what you do.
00:01:03.000 So my name is Shannon O'Loughlin.
00:01:05.000 I'm a citizen of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.
00:01:08.000 I've been a practicing attorney since about 2001. And I'm currently the executive director and attorney for the Association on American Indian Affairs.
00:01:18.000 We're the oldest non-profit serving Indian country.
00:01:21.000 We've been around since 1922. All right.
00:01:25.000 And we should tell people, if you ever listen to this in the future, this is all going on right now when the United States is going through one of the craziest times ever in terms of dealing with a virus.
00:01:39.000 We're sort of on lockdown.
00:01:41.000 All gyms are closed.
00:01:43.000 All comedy shows are closed, all concerts are closed, clubs, bars, everything's closed, and some places are restricting travel.
00:01:54.000 It's interesting to me that this is all going on, and we've never had to experience this before.
00:02:01.000 It makes me think of what happened when the Europeans first came to North America and encountered the Native Americans, and they didn't have any immunity to all these diseases that the Europeans were bringing over, and in some cases wiped out as much as 90% of the people that were living here.
00:02:21.000 But we're still here.
00:02:23.000 Yeah, if we would have only shut the borders about 550 years ago, we would have.
00:02:28.000 Yeah, if you had a Trump Indian back then wanting to build walls around everywhere. 0.98
00:02:33.000 Oh, God.
00:02:34.000 Let's not get there.
00:02:35.000 Yeah, let's not.
00:02:36.000 I mean, really, it's one of the biggest times in human history where if you talk about the Europeans coming to North America and what happened to the Native Americans just from diseases,
00:02:54.000 I mean, it's...
00:02:56.000 It's one of the biggest genocides in history.
00:02:59.000 Now, when you talk about 90% of a population wiped out by disease, I mean, that's almost impossible to understand.
00:03:06.000 But the genocide didn't happen because of the disease.
00:03:08.000 The disease did what the diseases did.
00:03:10.000 But the genocide happened through colonization.
00:03:14.000 The genocide happened through US Indian policy that continues today. 0.60
00:03:18.000 The genocide is ongoing.
00:03:20.000 So this is not something from the past.
00:03:23.000 This is something that continues today that we still are working to fight against.
00:03:28.000 That's why my organization is here.
00:03:31.000 Right.
00:03:32.000 That's absolutely true.
00:03:34.000 I just was getting into the whole disease part of it, how crazy it is.
00:03:38.000 No, it's fine.
00:03:39.000 I want you to talk about everything you want to talk about.
00:03:43.000 So let's go to that then, since this is...
00:03:47.000 The United States has a very strange situation with Native Americans, where Native Americans have reservations, and on those reservations they have sovereignty, they have different rules, they can do what they want.
00:03:58.000 It's very strange.
00:03:59.000 It's like there's nations inside of our nation.
00:04:03.000 How do you feel about that?
00:04:06.000 So it's a system that's been imposed by...
00:04:12.000 Maybe the best way to start is kind of start with the beginning.
00:04:16.000 How did we get to where we are today?
00:04:23.000 And there's a lot of information.
00:04:24.000 And so you got to stop me if I start getting too carried away, all right?
00:04:28.000 No worries.
00:04:28.000 We have plenty of time and a lot of interest, so don't worry about that.
00:04:32.000 So there are three Supreme Court cases that happened in the 1800s.
00:04:37.000 And there was a justice named John Marshall who was actually buying Indian land from the U.S. government through U.S. grants.
00:04:45.000 And so he was an interested party.
00:04:49.000 But he was making decisions that set forward the kind of watershed principles that continue to affect who Native Americans and Indian nation governments are today.
00:05:03.000 And so those three cases, the first one was called Johnson v.
00:05:07.000 McIntosh and it was in 1823. And it didn't involve any Indians.
00:05:12.000 It was non-Indians coming to court to try to determine who owned a piece of land in Indiana. 0.99
00:05:19.000 And there was one guy, Johnson, who was a plaintiff, who had purchased the land directly from the Piankashaw Indians, who are related to the Miami tribe today.
00:05:30.000 And then the defendant was McIntosh, and he purchased land from the U.S. government.
00:05:37.000 And so the case, of course, was who had the proper rights.
00:05:41.000 And through that case, through the narrative that Justice Marshall created, he We've brought forward a piece of international law that affects us today,
00:05:59.000 and that's the Doctrine of Discovery.
00:06:00.000 Have you ever heard of the Doctrine of Discovery?
00:06:03.000 No.
00:06:07.000 Any Christian, civilized European nation has the right to conquer indigenous heathen peoples. 1.00
00:06:15.000 So this was the principle that this case was based on, and it set forward this weird...
00:06:29.000 So, if the US, if the Christian European peoples had the rights to take land away from tribes because they were an inferior race, which is, this is language from the case, they're inferior race, 0.83
00:06:45.000 they're savages, they're unable to govern themselves, and they only have a right of occupancy.
00:06:53.000 So that was the first of three cases that Justice Marshall decided and of course he was an interested party in the whole thing because he had purchased land from the United States and he wanted to make sure his land was secure.
00:07:06.000 The second case was Cherokee Nation v.
00:07:08.000 Georgia.
00:07:09.000 And this was the time during the Indian Removal Act that Andrew Jackson had gotten through Congress to remove the Eastern Indians west of the Mississippi River into Indian Territory, which is, of course, now Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas area.
00:07:27.000 And again, this is a case that actually the Cherokee Nation tried to bring before the Supreme Court.
00:07:34.000 And before the Supreme Court could even make a decision on the – and I just realized I didn't even tell you the facts of the case.
00:07:43.000 So there was – I'm getting ahead of myself.
00:07:48.000 I apologize.
00:07:49.000 No worries.
00:07:49.000 This is an incredible experience to be here, so I'm a little bit nervous.
00:07:56.000 So in Cherokee Nation versus Georgia, Georgia was trying to assert its laws over the Cherokee Nation.
00:08:08.000 And so the Cherokee Nation brought this case before the Supreme Court to say, you know, the state does not have any right to assert any of its laws against us.
00:08:19.000 And what Justice Marshall did is said, well, you're not a foreign nation, so you can't bring a case before the Supreme Court and determine that tribes were a pseudo-sovereign nation, that they were still under tutelage and they needed to be civilized.
00:08:42.000 Again, the same kind of inferior, savage language in this case. 0.99
00:08:49.000 And held that the federal government had plenary power over tribal affairs and that the Cherokee Nation couldn't bring this case to court.
00:09:02.000 So what ended up happening is some missionaries who were serving the Cherokee Nation actually developed a case and violated Georgia laws So they could bring a case before the Supreme Court.
00:09:17.000 And that case was called Wooster v.
00:09:19.000 Georgia.
00:09:20.000 And I think that was about 1832, 1831. And in that case, it was ruled that the United States had a guardian and ward type relationship with tribes.
00:09:37.000 And so we were the wards.
00:09:40.000 They were our guardian.
00:09:42.000 And that set up This weird dynamic that still exists today that Supreme Courts and other courts cite in decisions today to basically take away more and more rights.
00:10:00.000 So that's the watershed basis for this weird relationship that we have.
00:10:06.000 And it's based on racism.
00:10:08.000 It's based on tribes being an inferior people as they not be civilized. 0.97
00:10:13.000 And so here we are.
00:10:16.000 So help direct me into another question here.
00:10:18.000 Well, that's a fascinating thing.
00:10:19.000 The idea that the United States government is...
00:10:23.000 They're like the big daddy to look over the tribes.
00:10:26.000 And the only way the tribes can exist is if they exist the European way. 0.83
00:10:30.000 Right.
00:10:30.000 The great white father.
00:10:31.000 Yeah.
00:10:32.000 And so all this was happening while they were trying to conquer the West.
00:10:38.000 So all this was happening around the gold rush time.
00:10:42.000 This was happening before then.
00:10:44.000 So this was happening in the 1830s.
00:10:45.000 When was the gold rush?
00:10:47.000 The gold rush was 1850s?
00:10:51.000 1849, 1850s?
00:10:52.000 So it was a little bit before that.
00:10:53.000 And then they're basically trying to take over land, right?
00:10:57.000 Oh, absolutely.
00:10:58.000 Absolutely.
00:10:59.000 So Georgia wanted that land for themselves.
00:11:02.000 They wanted to remove the Cherokee and, of course, the other quote-unquote civilized tribes that were in the southeast at that time. 0.91
00:11:10.000 And that's what's so interesting is because you see throughout time – and this is a little bit why I have a problem with some of the books that you've read – It's because they've taken small pictures of what was going on and kind of removed the context of what was really happening.
00:11:31.000 There are so many tribes across the United States that tried everything to resist or comply or assimilate so that they could maintain their way of life, maintain their lands, And continue to prosper as they had been.
00:11:49.000 But the United States was obviously a formidable opponent.
00:11:55.000 And regardless of, for example, the five civilized tribes and their tactic was to assimilate, was to go to school and educate themselves and learn English.
00:12:09.000 And even though they did that and they did everything that the United States wanted them to do, they were forced off their land to the west into Indian territory.
00:12:20.000 The Comanche, who you've learned about through the book, those events happened during a point in time and that was their effort at resistance.
00:12:32.000 They saw how disease wiped out their brethren from other nations.
00:12:37.000 They knew That folks were coming to get them.
00:12:41.000 And so that was their way of resisting being assimilated and having everything taken away from them.
00:12:49.000 In the defense of the authors of those books, they did cover a lot of that.
00:12:53.000 These books are in no way taking the side of the United States government.
00:12:58.000 The most amazing thing about Empire of the Summer Moon was just how special the relationship that the Comanches had to the land and about how when...
00:13:13.000 Jessica Ann Parker?
00:13:15.000 No, Cynthia Ann Parker.
00:13:17.000 She's the photo out there of the woman that's breastfeeding her child. 0.58
00:13:20.000 She was kidnapped when she was nine and assimilated with the Comanches.
00:13:24.000 And then was re-kidnapped by the United States government when she was in her 30s and didn't want to go back.
00:13:30.000 She missed the Comanche life and through her and through her depictions and her descriptions of the way they lived and the understanding of it, they got a better sense of like what she missed about that life and that they had an incredible relationship with the land.
00:13:47.000 They lived basically just in teepees.
00:13:50.000 They were very nomadic.
00:13:50.000 They just followed around the buffalo and they had In her way of looking at it, a magical existence in comparison to this really boring life that these settlers had.
00:14:04.000 And when she looked at it, it was interesting because she was a girl who was born a white settler.
00:14:16.000 And then, from the age of nine on, lived as a Comanche. 1.00
00:14:21.000 So she had, like, sort of a view of both worlds.
00:14:24.000 And, you know, she very much took the side of the Comanches.
00:14:28.000 And she wanted to go back.
00:14:29.000 Like, she had spoken Comanche.
00:14:30.000 In the book, there's an encounter where they bring in someone who was a Comanche to speak to her. 0.89
00:14:37.000 And she grabs him.
00:14:38.000 She's like, take me back.
00:14:39.000 We're going to leave.
00:14:40.000 Let's get out of here now.
00:14:41.000 Like, her thought was like, we got to get out of here. 1.00
00:14:43.000 Like, this way of life is bullshit. 0.99
00:14:45.000 Like, I want to go back to the Comanches, but she just didn't understand that that way of life was slowly going away. 1.00
00:14:52.000 And her son, Quanah Parker, who is that photograph over there that's on bullets that somebody made for me?
00:14:59.000 I don't even know where that came from.
00:15:01.000 Somebody sent me that.
00:15:02.000 But he was the last Comanche chief.
00:15:05.000 And during her lifetime and her son's lifetime was the last of it.
00:15:11.000 And it's a very sad story.
00:15:13.000 But you know the Comanches still live today, right? 1.00
00:15:16.000 Sure, in Oklahoma.
00:15:18.000 There's quite a few of them.
00:15:19.000 I've actually been in contact with some of those guys.
00:15:21.000 Oh, that's awesome.
00:15:22.000 Yes, it's very cool.
00:15:23.000 But they do, but they don't live the way they did, right?
00:15:27.000 I mean, their way of life was removed.
00:15:30.000 I mean, they were wiped out in that sense.
00:15:33.000 But cultures aren't static.
00:15:35.000 And we're not static.
00:15:36.000 And I think one of the major issues that American Indians have Is that we're often stereotyped into this picture, and if we don't fit that, then we're not legitimately Indian.
00:15:51.000 When you first met me, what did you think?
00:15:54.000 Did you think, well, where's her brown skin? 0.99
00:15:56.000 Where's the feathers?
00:15:58.000 I mean, this is— No, I did not think that.
00:15:59.000 No, I don't think you did.
00:16:02.000 And I guess it's a rhetorical question.
00:16:04.000 Oh, hell yes.
00:16:05.000 Well, are you 100% Native American?
00:16:08.000 No, absolutely not.
00:16:09.000 What percentage are you?
00:16:10.000 And that's...
00:16:12.000 Let's talk about that.
00:16:14.000 Let's talk about that.
00:16:16.000 What other...
00:16:18.000 So blood quantum is an imposition from the federal government that has been used to weed out Native Americans. 0.97
00:16:29.000 So the whole idea of US federal policy has been to assimilate Indians, to rid themselves of the Indian problem So that land and resources could be obtained, right? 1.00
00:16:44.000 And so blood quantum was one way that the US government could do that.
00:16:49.000 So if you didn't meet what they thought was some kind of purity test, then they could write you off, right?
00:16:56.000 But that is not how many Indian nations view tribal citizenship or membership.
00:17:05.000 It's through other types of cultural continuity, family relationships, and it's not about race.
00:17:14.000 That's been an imposition on us.
00:17:17.000 So I'm Polish and Choctaw.
00:17:23.000 So half and half?
00:17:24.000 Something like that.
00:17:26.000 Cynthia Ann Parker is probably a good example of that, right?
00:17:28.000 Because she was 0% Native American, but was purely Comanche. 1.00
00:17:33.000 Right, right.
00:17:34.000 Absolutely.
00:17:35.000 Absolutely.
00:17:36.000 Italians are very similar.
00:17:37.000 I'm Italian, but I have a last name that's Irish because I'm one quarter Irish.
00:17:41.000 So growing up around Italians, it was always like a way they made fun of me. 1.00
00:17:46.000 It was always a funny thing, like, are you sure you're Italian?
00:17:49.000 It's a purity test.
00:17:53.000 Italian is like a nice last name with a lot of vowels.
00:17:56.000 That's what they like.
00:17:58.000 And it's really interesting.
00:18:00.000 So as executive director of the Association on American Indian Affairs, we get tons of inquiries.
00:18:07.000 Probably the top inquiry we get are people wanting to do DNA tests to determine what tribe they belong to.
00:18:15.000 So everyone seems to want to be Indian. 0.98
00:18:19.000 And even some people are emboldened enough to say, you know, hey, I did my DNA test.
00:18:25.000 It says I'm Native American.
00:18:27.000 Where's my Indian check?
00:18:29.000 So there's so many misconceptions about what it means to be Native American.
00:18:34.000 That's a real issue?
00:18:35.000 Yes.
00:18:36.000 That doesn't exist, but there's some kind of fantasy or myth that many people in the U.S. kind of believe about Indians because we don't know.
00:18:49.000 It's not like it's taught well in school.
00:18:51.000 It's not like this is part of a normal dialogue.
00:18:55.000 And can you correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that it can really clearly identify what nation you're from.
00:19:02.000 No, DNA tests can't.
00:19:03.000 It cannot.
00:19:04.000 It can identify whether you have certain genetic traits that might be from North America, like Canada, or might be from South America as well, right?
00:19:14.000 Right.
00:19:15.000 Yeah, so if you really want to learn about your history and heritage, you have to do that genealogical research.
00:19:24.000 And if you weren't aware, there's 574 federally recognized tribes and about 300 other tribal groups in the United States.
00:19:32.000 300 other on top of the 500?
00:19:35.000 Yeah, that aren't recognized by the United States for many reasons.
00:19:40.000 Wow.
00:19:41.000 And so each one of those tribes have their own laws.
00:19:44.000 They have their own systems of governance, their own – whether it's more a traditional form of government or a written constitutional government.
00:19:52.000 And each one of them have their own eligibility requirements for citizenship.
00:19:56.000 So you have to do your own genealogy.
00:19:59.000 And then if you do find who you may be affiliated with, then you go to that nation and you talk to them about what their eligibility requirements are.
00:20:07.000 Some of them are residency, some of them are familial relations, and some of them are blood quantum.
00:20:15.000 The term Indian, is that okay to use?
00:20:19.000 That's actually a legal term of art.
00:20:21.000 So Indian is a defined legal term in federal law.
00:20:25.000 Of art?
00:20:26.000 It's a legal term of art.
00:20:27.000 What does that mean?
00:20:28.000 Sorry, I'm a lawyer.
00:20:29.000 That just means...
00:20:31.000 That just means that it's a defined federal term that has a specific definition in U.S. Code.
00:20:43.000 We tend to like to be called the nation that we belong to, who our people are.
00:20:49.000 So for you, it would be Choctaw. 0.99
00:20:51.000 Choctaw, right.
00:20:52.000 And for others, whatever, Cherokee, what have you.
00:20:54.000 A lot of people use Native American, and that's...
00:20:58.000 That's a broad term because that really can define folks from south of the invisible border, north of the invisible border and in the western hemisphere.
00:21:09.000 So it's a much broader term.
00:21:11.000 Indigenous peoples is a great, great term.
00:21:15.000 Yeah.
00:21:16.000 A lot of people in Canada, they use First Nation.
00:21:19.000 They have a very interesting relationship with First Nation people up there.
00:21:25.000 It's similar but different.
00:21:27.000 They have very different rules in terms of hunting and fishing, and they basically can do whatever they want.
00:21:35.000 I have friends who live in Alberta, and First Nation people don't have hunting seasons. 0.76
00:21:42.000 They just do whatever they want.
00:21:43.000 They basically say, look, let's just pretend like we never invaded and you just live how you would normally, but with modern equipment.
00:21:52.000 So it's a little odd.
00:21:54.000 But there's no way getting around it being odd.
00:21:57.000 I mean, I think...
00:22:00.000 One of the things that I got out of this recent obsession with American Indian culture and these stories was realizing how little I knew about the history of this country.
00:22:13.000 You might have a A basic understanding of what happened that you learned in school.
00:22:20.000 It's real peripheral.
00:22:23.000 It's very surface.
00:22:25.000 And then upon reading these books, it made me realize, like, what happened here?
00:22:31.000 What happened here over the course of a couple hundred years?
00:22:36.000 Is almost unprecedented in history, like that this nation was conquered by all these invaders that just kept coming in, kept changing the rules, kept breaking treaties, making treaties, breaking treaties, wiping people out, calling things battles when they were really just massacres of women and children.
00:22:56.000 I mean, there's some horrendous, horrendous stories of the justification of these massacres that were No different than any other horrific barbarian slaughter that you might have heard about in history that's looked down upon,
00:23:12.000 but for years in this country they were taught as if they were actual battles.
00:23:17.000 The history of this country in regards to the tribes and the American settlers and the soldiers is terrifying.
00:23:26.000 It's terrifying that this just happened a couple of hundred years ago and that people are capable of these things and that the ancestors of these people are just roaming around today and that's what this country was founded on.
00:23:39.000 This country was founded on massacres.
00:23:41.000 And that policy has been studied by folks like Adolf Hitler and was even included. 0.74
00:23:48.000 He talked about studying how the U.S. treated American Indians in his book Mein Kampf.
00:23:56.000 Really?
00:23:57.000 Yes.
00:24:00.000 But it wasn't just the battles.
00:24:04.000 There have been many different types of battles that we consider warfare, though it hasn't been done with, you know, guns and— Legal.
00:24:13.000 Right.
00:24:14.000 Legal battles, exactly.
00:24:17.000 I mean, since the 1600s, Europeans have been trying to educate us and assimilate us and civilize us.
00:24:28.000 And have passed laws once the United States became a new country in the 1800s, passed laws to take our children and move them far away and punish them if they spoke their language, cut their hair, 0.63
00:24:45.000 put them in these schools that were military-based.
00:24:49.000 And they studied academics in the morning, and then they did trade in the afternoon, and those trades were to help pay for the schools.
00:25:01.000 So they were basically indentured servants, slave labor, making sure that the school could have enough funds to pay for their own education.
00:25:15.000 The boarding school history in the United States and Canada has horrendous, horrendous stories.
00:25:24.000 And these schools were funded by the U.S. federal government.
00:25:29.000 And the association and other groups are trying to get the United States to release records Jesus.
00:25:48.000 Jesus.
00:25:58.000 Yeah.
00:25:58.000 So there's the Carlisle.
00:26:01.000 Some of this work has been done at the Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania, which is now owned by the Army Corps, Army Corps of Engineers.
00:26:11.000 And there are some tribes that are trying to repatriate their children that are in graves there and bring them back home.
00:26:21.000 So this has been a process all over the country, trying to figure out, you know, who these children were, where they belong, and to bring them home.
00:26:30.000 And it's been a really difficult process for the organizations.
00:26:33.000 How did so many of them die?
00:26:38.000 Disease, not being fed, working too much, all those things that could kill a child.
00:26:48.000 And all these things, there's records of all these different children and the places they stayed?
00:26:52.000 No, we haven't been able to...
00:26:54.000 Folks that are doing this work have not been able to find all the records.
00:26:58.000 And like I said, the federal government...
00:27:01.000 Probably doesn't have the records.
00:27:03.000 Probably has mismanaged a lot of the records regarding these boarding schools.
00:27:09.000 And there were different times, there have been different eras of Indian policy where the federal government was like, oh, wait, this isn't working.
00:27:16.000 Let's get out of this business of teaching Indians. 1.00
00:27:20.000 Let's give it to the churches.
00:27:21.000 Let them do it for a while.
00:27:23.000 And then it would come back into the federal government.
00:27:26.000 But the churches would have it.
00:27:27.000 And of course, we've heard all of the horrible things that different churches have done to children.
00:27:34.000 And there are still many boarding school schools.
00:27:41.000 We're good to go.
00:27:46.000 We're good to go.
00:28:04.000 To try to heal from that trauma that's not just theirs, but it's this intergenerational historic trauma that has been with our communities for a couple hundred years now.
00:28:18.000 So there are a lot of stories like that.
00:28:21.000 And this, again, this is US federal policy.
00:28:30.000 While the US was building the reservation system and putting tribes kind of in these blockades, if you did not send your child to school, you weren't given rations.
00:28:43.000 You weren't given your food.
00:28:45.000 If you practiced your culture, You could be killed for practicing your culture, using your language, because this was the assimilation policy of the day. 0.99
00:28:59.000 And this happened, I would say, 1850, 1870s through the 1920s.
00:29:06.000 There was this horrific period of federal Indian policy of Trying to do away with language, communal-type living, cultural practices and religion.
00:29:20.000 So this isn't just, you know, gun warfare.
00:29:24.000 This has been a continuing policy that even affects us today.
00:29:30.000 So it was gun warfare until they got the Indians to move into the reservation, and then it was basically an annihilation of the culture. 0.94
00:29:37.000 Right.
00:29:38.000 And it meets all the definitions of genocide from international law.
00:29:45.000 One of the things that they talked about in Black Elk was the practice of the ghost dance.
00:29:50.000 This idea that they were going to somehow or another bring back the old ways.
00:29:56.000 And it's a sad, sad story.
00:29:58.000 When you hear them talk about it, especially because it's coming from the words of Black Elk, who was a guy that was there with the Battle of Little Bighorn.
00:30:07.000 And then from then, now is an older man talking about what his experiences have been like.
00:30:16.000 Right.
00:30:31.000 And most treaties had some similar language.
00:30:35.000 A lot of them talked about they had bad man provisions.
00:30:39.000 So bad man provisions were basically if our men, the U.S., if our men come into your jurisdiction and do something bad, we'll take care of it for you.
00:30:51.000 You know, just some simple provisions like that, but that never was enforced.
00:30:58.000 The U.S. let their people come in and take over what were supposed to be protective areas of land. 0.99
00:31:10.000 And that was just constant.
00:31:12.000 That happened everywhere.
00:31:14.000 So there were bad man provisions.
00:31:15.000 There were a lot of provisions.
00:31:17.000 A lot of beautiful provisions that tribes still talk about today, you know, as long as the grass grows and, you know, we'll have our lands.
00:31:27.000 And none of these provisions were ever.
00:31:32.000 And a lot of the East Coast tribes, their boundaries were changed and new treaties were made and accepted and removal happened and then there were new treaties and nothing was ever maintained.
00:31:50.000 Where did you grow up?
00:31:51.000 Did you grow up in Oklahoma?
00:31:52.000 In Oklahoma, yeah.
00:31:53.000 Did you grow up on a reservation?
00:31:54.000 So Oklahoma is an interesting case.
00:31:56.000 So Oklahoma did have set-aside land, so Choctaw had their area, Chickasaw and the other tribes that were removed to Oklahoma.
00:32:08.000 And by the way, because of that removal there, tribes that were already there We're removed. 0.94
00:32:16.000 So there were already tribes there, the Caddo and Comanche and other tribes that this was already their land.
00:32:24.000 So new tribes moved in and land during the I'm forgetting my dates now, but there was a Dawes commission around 1906 or so,
00:32:44.000 where there was a census and individual Indians were allotted about 160 acres apiece.
00:32:56.000 And this was an effort to decrease the amount of land base that tribes held in common.
00:33:03.000 And this happened all across the country, not just in Oklahoma, where there were allotment policies.
00:33:09.000 And I believe there were about...
00:33:15.000 Heck, I'm not good with numbers.
00:33:17.000 I think there were like 19 million acres that were removed this way of land.
00:33:23.000 But what happened today, there is a criminal case before the Supreme Court that is actually addressing these issues because Even though our lands were allotted, the exterior boundaries of our reservations,
00:33:38.000 the area that we had agreed to live in, they've never been extinguished.
00:33:44.000 They've never been diminished.
00:33:46.000 And so the Supreme Court is actually looking at this issue now as to whether we still have jurisdiction within the exterior boundaries of our reservations in Oklahoma.
00:34:01.000 What would that extend to?
00:34:02.000 Cities?
00:34:04.000 Are there cities in Oklahoma that are in those areas now?
00:34:06.000 Oh, yeah.
00:34:07.000 So if you think of...
00:34:08.000 Like Tulsa?
00:34:09.000 Yeah.
00:34:09.000 So that's Creek Nation.
00:34:11.000 So Tulsa would be owned?
00:34:16.000 Well, so...
00:34:18.000 Not necessarily.
00:34:19.000 So it's raised a lot of fear with non-Indians about— I wonder why.
00:34:23.000 Yeah.
00:34:24.000 The Indians are taking back the land. 1.00
00:34:26.000 Yeah.
00:34:26.000 Oh, my God.
00:34:28.000 But what would actually happen, there's a lot of places in Indian country where there's allotment and there's non-Indian individuals who have fee land within the exterior boundaries of reservations and then individual Indians owning fee land within the exterior boundaries of reservations.
00:34:45.000 You're saying fee land? 0.88
00:34:45.000 Fee land. 0.88
00:34:46.000 So just how you would— No, no.
00:34:48.000 So how you own land.
00:34:50.000 It's not restricted.
00:34:52.000 It's in fee.
00:34:54.000 You own the title to that land, right?
00:34:57.000 A lot of land held by tribes is in trust or in restricted fee.
00:35:05.000 A common area land, like let's look at the Onondaga Nation in New York State.
00:35:13.000 They have the exterior boundaries of the reservation.
00:35:17.000 They own restricted fee land.
00:35:20.000 So they own it, but they can't sell it without U.S. permission, right?
00:35:27.000 Trust land is similar and it's treated the same as restricted fee, but it's held in trust.
00:35:32.000 So the U.S. has more control of what happens on that land or has been seen to have a little more control than it would in just restricted fee.
00:35:43.000 But within the exterior boundaries of the reservation, you can have this checkerboarded ownership of land of non-Indians and Indians, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the tribe has jurisdiction over the non-Indian fee land.
00:36:02.000 And the civil and criminal jurisdiction issues On an area of land like that is extremely complex and continues to be argued in the courts.
00:36:18.000 And most of the time, our jurisdiction...
00:36:22.000 Most of the time we lose those cases, especially since...
00:36:31.000 The 80s and 90s and up until today, there was really a change in kind of how the Supreme Court decided Indian law cases.
00:36:42.000 So if we go back into the history of federal Indian policy, you see this kind of weird schizophrenic Those Marshall cases that I talked about, they really set forward kind of schizophrenic principles that Indians are sovereign but they're just a ward and they're uncivilized. 0.99
00:37:03.000 So we have to take care of them but they're sovereign.
00:37:06.000 And so you have at different eras of time policymakers who support tribal sovereignty and will use those cases to help support that sovereignty.
00:37:17.000 And then there are other administrations that come around, not talking about any current administration, but that use those cases against us.
00:37:31.000 And degrade policy and degrade any kind of rights that we may have gained in other eras.
00:37:38.000 So it's really been, you know, Indians today live in this We live in such an insecure world.
00:37:48.000 You know, our statistics are horrible.
00:37:50.000 You know, the suicide rate for our youth, our high school graduates, everything that you could possibly think of that there's a statistic on, we're usually the lowest, we're the worst.
00:38:04.000 And it's because we live in a society that is constantly changing.
00:38:08.000 We can never depend on whether or not our rights are secured, whether or not we're going to have land, jobs, be able to practice our culture.
00:38:21.000 There were periods of time in our history where people would steal our religious objects.
00:38:30.000 And our sacred items.
00:38:31.000 They still do.
00:38:32.000 And loot our graves.
00:38:35.000 There's a law called the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act that was meant to repatriate those stolen items and those stolen ancestors back to tribes so that we could help with our cultural revitalization as well as put our ancestors back to rest.
00:38:56.000 There are still at least 200,000 ancestors in boxes and museums.
00:39:03.000 Jesus.
00:39:05.000 That's just in the US. 200,000 in museums in the US? Just in the US. So our ancestors and our cultural items and religious objects have also been taken all around the world.
00:39:18.000 Imagine if it was French people. 1.00
00:39:20.000 It was 200,000 French people in boxes in museums in the U.S. And France is one of the worst. 1.00
00:39:28.000 So there was just a case recently.
00:39:33.000 French love to auction our sacred objects for some reason. 1.00
00:39:37.000 There was a sacred shield of the Pueblo of Acoma in about 2016 that was being sold at auction in France.
00:39:52.000 And the Pueblo fought and even went to court in France to try to stop that auction and get that item back because there was evidence that it had been stolen in contemporary times.
00:40:08.000 And France said, you don't have standing in our courts. 0.98
00:40:13.000 So even though they're considered sovereign or a pseudo-sovereign nation here in the United States, we didn't have standing in the French court and couldn't protect that item this way.
00:40:25.000 So we had to use other means of negotiation and arm twisting.
00:40:32.000 That item has finally been repatriated, but it took It took about four years for that to happen.
00:40:39.000 So it's finally been brought back.
00:40:40.000 Yeah, but that's just one case.
00:40:43.000 This happens...
00:40:44.000 Where is it now?
00:40:45.000 It's back home at the Acoma Pueblo. 1.00
00:40:49.000 And do they have it on display?
00:40:51.000 No, this is a sacred object.
00:40:53.000 It can't be on display?
00:40:55.000 Right.
00:40:55.000 These are items that are used for religious purposes.
00:40:59.000 They're protected sacred items.
00:41:02.000 And the association we were fighting with the Metropolitan Museum of Art last year and the year before because they were displaying items from a private collection that were sacred.
00:41:16.000 One item was even a funerary object, was an item that is never supposed to be seen because it's buried with the ancestor.
00:41:26.000 And it was on display.
00:41:30.000 And without any kind of consultation with the tribes affected, It's horrendous the way we still look at Indian people and our cultures and our practices today.
00:41:46.000 We're still being called heathens.
00:41:48.000 There was an article, I think just last week, there was a religious man saying that we're heathens because we The sage that I gave you, because we burn sage as one of our medicinal and spiritual practices.
00:42:07.000 That was the reason why they were calling you heathens?
00:42:09.000 Yeah, and this was just in an article last week from a Christian group.
00:42:14.000 Oh, well.
00:42:16.000 I'm a heathen too to that.
00:42:18.000 We're all heathens.
00:42:20.000 It seems like the issue of what we were talking about with youth suicide, high school graduation, drug addiction, all those problems, those are the most massive ones.
00:42:36.000 And what could be done to try to mitigate these problems?
00:42:43.000 Like, if you had a magic wand, and, I mean, it's been...
00:42:47.000 I mean, if you talk about Native American reservations in this country, people talk about poverty, they talk about drug addiction and alcoholism, they talk about despair.
00:42:56.000 I mean, this is something that was also brought up in the book Black Elk, so this seems to be something that started when they were forced into reservations in the first place, and then were ashamed of their heritage because of the fact they were subjugated by these, I mean,
00:43:12.000 whatever you want to call them, The soldiers, the military.
00:43:16.000 What could be done?
00:43:18.000 If you had a magic wand and I said, Shannon, what can be done?
00:43:22.000 You have all the money at your disposal.
00:43:25.000 What would you do?
00:43:26.000 Well, there's no quick fix to issues like that and people have been trying to work with tribes regarding poverty and addiction and schools.
00:43:38.000 Even if there's no quick fix?
00:43:39.000 There's no quick fix.
00:43:41.000 What kind of?
00:43:41.000 But I think what there is and what we're working to do...
00:43:45.000 See, my organization is almost 100 years old and we're looking forward to the next 100 years.
00:43:50.000 What are we going to do?
00:43:52.000 And there is really important work being done regarding healing from historic trauma.
00:44:00.000 And it's community work.
00:44:02.000 It's work that engages the entire community.
00:44:06.000 So it's not just directed at young people.
00:44:08.000 It's not just directed at a segment.
00:44:10.000 It really involves a whole community coming together.
00:44:14.000 And healing.
00:44:15.000 But what also really needs to happen is we need to bring people like you along with us.
00:44:23.000 So we need, if we can't clear away the myths that Euro America or white America, whatever you want to call it, If we can't clear away those myths that we continually face every day,
00:44:41.000 every time I go into Washington, D.C., damn it, every time I go into the Wegmans, there's a big Washington football team Tostitos potato chips with the Washington football team name on there.
00:44:56.000 The Redskins. 0.98
00:44:59.000 Is that an offensive word?
00:45:00.000 That's an offensive word.
00:45:01.000 Me even saying that, like right there, is that offensive?
00:45:05.000 Yes.
00:45:06.000 Yes.
00:45:07.000 Not to everybody.
00:45:36.000 Indian skins or scalps that have been taken from Indian people.
00:45:46.000 It's an offensive—it's not just derogatory or demeaning, but it's— We should be really clear what you're saying when you're saying skins and scalps.
00:45:54.000 We mean dead people.
00:45:55.000 Yeah.
00:45:56.000 Yeah.
00:45:57.000 Yeah.
00:46:00.000 Sorry.
00:46:01.000 No, no worries.
00:46:02.000 This is the number one reason why I wanted to have you here.
00:46:05.000 I want it from your perspective.
00:46:08.000 Because for us, we get, oh, yeah, that's an offensive word.
00:46:11.000 I heard that's offensive.
00:46:12.000 I heard that's offensive.
00:46:13.000 The majority of people are not talking to someone who's deeply ingrained in Native American issues and culture like you are.
00:46:20.000 So you could explain to us that, you know, it makes sense.
00:46:27.000 Think about some derogatory term for someone I mean, even if it was kind of derogatory, like if they were called the Washington Krauts and it was all based on Germans, a lot of German people would probably be really pissed off at that. 0.94
00:46:43.000 Like, hey, that's kind of shitty. 0.70
00:46:45.000 Why are you calling us that? 0.96
00:46:46.000 But it's the Chiefs, Kansas City Chiefs.
00:46:49.000 What other Native American names?
00:46:51.000 There's been a ton of them, right?
00:46:52.000 Yeah, the Braves.
00:46:54.000 There's a lot of Indians.
00:46:55.000 Are the Braves still around?
00:46:57.000 No.
00:46:57.000 Yes, they still have that name.
00:46:59.000 So has anybody given in and changed their name?
00:47:04.000 Yes, there has.
00:47:06.000 And there's been really a movement with high school, colleges, and I don't know the status of any, you know, as far as NFL or national teams.
00:47:21.000 Syracuse University had a derogatory mascot that they changed some years back because of the tribes there that are now in the state of New York fought for that.
00:47:36.000 What was that mascot?
00:47:37.000 I can't remember.
00:47:39.000 But now they're some kind of like orange.
00:47:41.000 It's an orange?
00:47:43.000 All right.
00:47:44.000 Super orange.
00:47:45.000 Yeah, but...
00:47:47.000 That's not hurting anybody's feelings.
00:47:48.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:47:50.000 But if we're ever going to fix these issues, I think we really need to start with our public education system.
00:47:58.000 We need to teach people...
00:48:00.000 That Indians are still here. 1.00
00:48:02.000 We're still alive.
00:48:05.000 It's amazing how many people don't even realize that Indian people exist outside of casinos.
00:48:11.000 It is kind of crazy if you think about it.
00:48:13.000 There's not another culture that gets teams named after them.
00:48:19.000 We have Indians all around us all the time.
00:48:23.000 Just go to the grocery store and buy some butter or some baking soda.
00:48:27.000 Look at different— A beef jerky.
00:48:30.000 Yeah, pop culture, tomahawk missile, the Indian motorcycle, and the Pontiac had a— I think an Indian head on its car back in the day, 1.00
00:48:45.000 I think.
00:48:45.000 Yeah, it was an old Pontiac.
00:48:47.000 One of the Pontiacs?
00:48:47.000 Yeah.
00:48:50.000 It's all over our culture.
00:48:53.000 It's all around us, but yet we don't even realize what that means.
00:48:59.000 Yeah.
00:49:02.000 To many of us, you would think it would open up a dialogue about Indian people and whether we're going to choose to do something different with this history because it is our history.
00:49:18.000 It's our collective history.
00:49:21.000 And we have, throughout time, changed the narrative and stories of our history.
00:49:26.000 You know, when we've all realized that Columbus wasn't such a great guy.
00:49:33.000 That took a long time.
00:49:35.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:49:35.000 Well, what do you think about that?
00:49:37.000 You're Italian.
00:49:38.000 It's crazy. 1.00
00:49:38.000 It's crazy that it took so long to figure out that he was a sociopath and a murderer. 1.00
00:49:43.000 I mean, when you read the accounts of the different religious people that were traveling with Columbus that wrote, I forget what they were, what their designation was, but there was one journal that detailed what they did to Native American babies,
00:50:03.000 And shatter their heads on rocks and cut people's arms off if they didn't bring their weight in gold to them.
00:50:09.000 I mean, horrific, horrific tales of torture and murder.
00:50:13.000 And it's like, how is this the guy that we have a day off for?
00:50:16.000 How is this Columbus thing?
00:50:18.000 You realize, well, Columbus was a conqueror.
00:50:20.000 I mean, he was just a symbol of the times.
00:50:25.000 1492 was a brutal time in human history.
00:50:28.000 And when they arrived, I mean, they really didn't even arrive here, but when they arrived wherever they did arrive, it was the worst thing that could have ever possibly happened to the people that were already living there.
00:50:39.000 And that this guy is somehow or another, you know, a part of our folklore.
00:50:44.000 You know, 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue and all that nonsense. 1.00
00:50:48.000 And meanwhile, he's a fucking murderer. 1.00
00:50:50.000 And it's kind of crazy that they knew this, but it took until now. 1.00
00:50:56.000 I mean, didn't they change it to Indigenous Peoples Day?
00:50:58.000 Well, there are still cities, counties, states that are still in the process of changing that.
00:51:04.000 I'm not sure.
00:51:05.000 I think there are some cities in California that have already done that and celebrate Indigenous Peoples Day.
00:51:12.000 Columbus, Ohio is not named after Columbus though, right?
00:51:14.000 Is it named after another dude?
00:51:16.000 No?
00:51:17.000 What's it named after?
00:51:18.000 Columbus?
00:51:19.000 It is?
00:51:20.000 Giant statue up in front of City Hall. 1.00
00:51:21.000 Change that shit. 1.00
00:51:22.000 Talk to your people. 1.00
00:51:23.000 It's a little late.
00:51:24.000 You got a Columbus hat on, bro.
00:51:26.000 It's the Cleveland hat.
00:51:26.000 It's the Cleveland Indians, which makes it worse.
00:51:28.000 I'm sorry.
00:51:29.000 Jamie! 1.00
00:51:31.000 You piece of shit! 1.00
00:51:32.000 I'm sorry. 1.00
00:51:33.000 I was trying to ignore that over there.
00:51:35.000 I know.
00:51:35.000 I'm sorry.
00:51:35.000 I'm sorry.
00:51:36.000 Thanks a lot.
00:51:37.000 Thanks a lot.
00:51:38.000 I feel really welcome there.
00:51:39.000 Jesus Christ.
00:51:39.000 That's right.
00:51:40.000 The Cleveland Indians.
00:51:41.000 Another one.
00:51:42.000 I forgot about the Atlanta Braves.
00:51:43.000 The Washington Redskins.
00:51:45.000 It is nuts when you stop and think about how many American teams are named after Indians.
00:51:51.000 Animals and Indians. 1.00
00:51:53.000 Columbus, man. 1.00
00:51:54.000 Fuck you, Columbus. 1.00
00:51:55.000 Change your name. 1.00
00:51:56.000 What would they change it to?
00:51:58.000 Name it after a lake or something.
00:52:00.000 How about name it after a cool Native American?
00:52:02.000 Would that be okay?
00:52:03.000 Yeah, that would be great.
00:52:04.000 Who would you choose?
00:52:04.000 I would consult with Native Americans before you do that.
00:52:09.000 Right.
00:52:09.000 They would have to be someone from Ohio?
00:52:11.000 Like what nation is in Ohio?
00:52:15.000 Well, there's not any now.
00:52:17.000 None?
00:52:17.000 There are indigenous peoples there, but there are no federally recognized tribes in Ohio.
00:52:23.000 Wow.
00:52:24.000 So who are the indigenous people that are not federally recognized?
00:52:27.000 I'm not sure.
00:52:29.000 But I know that there was Indiana, Ohio, that was a Miami tribe.
00:52:36.000 They're in Oklahoma.
00:52:38.000 But there are...
00:52:39.000 When you say Miami, you mean Miami the city?
00:52:41.000 No, they're a tribe of people.
00:52:44.000 Okay, because you were saying that earlier, and I was going to ask you, rather, if you meant the city.
00:52:50.000 No, no, I mean the people.
00:52:52.000 So did Miami get named after Native Americans?
00:52:54.000 I don't know.
00:52:55.000 I don't know.
00:52:56.000 But I would I would think so.
00:52:57.000 There's a lot of place names that are named after indigenous peoples.
00:53:02.000 So Miami is a type of it's a tribe.
00:53:06.000 Yes.
00:53:07.000 Yes.
00:53:08.000 And they're in Oklahoma.
00:53:10.000 How confusing.
00:53:11.000 They're in northern Oklahoma.
00:53:13.000 They probably said the Miami people, you can keep it. 1.00
00:53:16.000 Crazy assholes. 0.99
00:53:18.000 But what's interesting in these states like Indiana and Ohio where indigenous peoples have just been Removed wholeheartedly is that tons of archaeologists and other people that like to loot, 1.00
00:53:35.000 they have taken so many things out of the ground.
00:53:40.000 There was a case that the FBI actually got a hold of in Indiana, a gentleman by the name of Don Miller, who had a huge ranch house and farm, and it was just Full of Native American artifacts including human remains and there were even items from other countries that he had looted and taken.
00:54:07.000 And the FBI actually investigated that and because the man was like 90 years old, they didn't prosecute him but they were able to Take back those items and through that Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act,
00:54:24.000 they've been consulting with tribes to repatriate those items back.
00:54:28.000 But that looting and collecting in areas like Indiana and Ohio and other places...
00:54:32.000 Jamie actually has it up on the screen here.
00:54:34.000 Oh yeah, here it is.
00:54:34.000 FBI finds 2,000 human bones among antiquities seized from man's home.
00:54:39.000 So where did this gentleman get all this stuff?
00:54:42.000 His collection was Native American, including the bone.
00:54:45.000 Tim Carpenter of the FBI told media outlets that half it.
00:54:49.000 Miller reportedly admitted he'd conducted illegal digging expeditions, but he'd never faced criminal charges before his death in 2015. So this guy was just digging stuff up and just showing it around his house.
00:55:00.000 And there were rules against this?
00:55:03.000 Oh, absolutely.
00:55:04.000 Absolutely.
00:55:05.000 So if it's on land, what if he owns a ranch?
00:55:10.000 How does that work?
00:55:11.000 So it's dependent.
00:55:13.000 And a lot of the things that he had, it wasn't clear where he had got it from.
00:55:17.000 He didn't even know.
00:55:19.000 Or remember or keep any records of where he got a lot of the items.
00:55:25.000 So our laws are really screwy with this too.
00:55:28.000 So federal and tribal lands are protected.
00:55:31.000 So public lands, parks, and tribal lands are protected lands.
00:55:36.000 You can't go and dig in federal or tribal lands without a permit.
00:55:42.000 Among other things.
00:55:44.000 But just in state private lands, it's really dependent on what the state laws are and it's really inconsistent whether looting is protected or not.
00:56:00.000 So that's where it's interesting because there's a lot of gigantic ranches in Texas that are privately owned that were originally Native American hunting grounds.
00:56:10.000 There's ones that a friend of mine has hunted on that they have these pictographs.
00:56:15.000 You go inside these caves and this is on private land.
00:56:18.000 Someone owns this.
00:56:19.000 You go inside these caves and there's ancient artwork all over the walls of the cave.
00:56:23.000 And signs of fire, like soot on the ceiling of the cave where they lit campfires.
00:56:29.000 This should probably be some sort of a historical site.
00:56:34.000 Right.
00:56:34.000 And it's usually not protected.
00:56:36.000 And people get real angry when Indians try to get involved in where there may be developments that will have an effect on a burial site, a sacred site,
00:56:51.000 or other type of site.
00:56:54.000 People really get angry.
00:56:56.000 Yeah.
00:56:56.000 And so it's really hard for tribes to work to protect these areas, work to learn about what the areas are even about.
00:57:07.000 There's been so much amateur archaeology, and this whole country was founded on amateur archaeology.
00:57:16.000 Dig up a look at what we found in this grave.
00:57:19.000 Everyone was looking for gold and other special things and oftentimes they just took whatever was in the grave and created the antiquities art market, which still is all over the world today.
00:57:35.000 So the association is constantly looking at auctions and trying to return items that That private collectors have obtained improperly.
00:57:45.000 We just got a human vertebra removed from a U.S. auction just a couple of weeks ago.
00:57:54.000 They were selling it because they said it had an arrow point still in, you know, so that has value in some markets.
00:58:08.000 And they had done DNA on this to prove that...
00:58:11.000 No, they were selling it as a Native American vertebra.
00:58:15.000 It was from a collector in Massachusetts.
00:58:20.000 Well, how could they prove that it wasn't just a settler that was killed by an arrow?
00:58:24.000 Right.
00:58:24.000 I don't know.
00:58:27.000 That's the thing about trying to work with auctions and private collectors is they often don't want to work with us because they're trying to make money.
00:58:36.000 So oftentimes items, whether they're religious objects or human remains, they have a story or what's called a provenance associated with them that is often made up to drive the price of the item.
00:58:51.000 So whether that was a legitimate vertebrae of a Native American, we don't know because we can't get that collector to talk to us.
00:58:58.000 So the collector is under no obligation by law to talk to you?
00:59:04.000 No, that's why we try to send the FBI and our friend Tim Carpenter to them.
00:59:09.000 So how would they determine?
00:59:11.000 I mean, wouldn't they have to do a DNA analysis of the bones and try to figure out who the person was?
00:59:18.000 Well, the DNA analysis isn't necessarily going to tell you where it came from.
00:59:24.000 It could tell you that it was Native American.
00:59:27.000 Would they even be able to get that out of bones?
00:59:29.000 I don't know.
00:59:30.000 I don't know.
00:59:30.000 And I'm not a scientist.
00:59:32.000 But, you know, there was a case really not that long ago called the Kennewick Man case.
00:59:39.000 I don't know if maybe you heard of it.
00:59:41.000 But it was an ancestor was uncovered in the state of Washington.
00:59:48.000 And he was old, old, old, old.
00:59:51.000 And the universities involved in the Army Corps who – We're good to go.
01:00:14.000 Native Americans fought to get that ancestor, the ancient one, back.
01:00:19.000 And finally, after a court case that deemed the item wasn't – that the ancestor wasn't Native American, DNA test was done and it was indeed Native American and the ancestor was finally repatriated.
01:00:39.000 Can I ask you how that works?
01:00:41.000 So, listen, you said there's 500 recognized tribes, many more that are unrecognized.
01:00:48.000 Who would that go to?
01:00:50.000 Right.
01:00:51.000 So...
01:00:52.000 Like say if you won and it's brought back and given to Native Americans, to who and to where? 0.62
01:00:59.000 Right.
01:00:59.000 So let's look at the best case scenario.
01:01:03.000 And a lot of museums have maintained records that may have human remains and associated funerary objects and have enough information to know where that came from, what site it was located at,
01:01:18.000 what county, what state.
01:01:20.000 And we know from tribal histories as well as federal U.S. documentation that that area was likely affiliated with, you know, this tribe or that tribe or maybe several tribes.
01:01:36.000 And so consultation occurs under that law about those ancestral remains and funerary objects and it's determined where those items should go back.
01:01:49.000 In the worst case scenario where there's not Any information, oftentimes evidence of, well, who were the collectors that were giving to that institution?
01:02:03.000 What has been the history of the institution and where has it obtained different collections?
01:02:08.000 And through that, you know, it's deduced who may be affiliated with those items or the ancestors.
01:02:18.000 So it can be a pretty long, drawn out process.
01:02:22.000 But what's interesting about it is museums and other institutions fought this law for a long time.
01:02:31.000 And they said, well, you know, all of our collections will, you know, we won't be able to fulfill our purpose as a museum or an academic institution to study these things.
01:02:41.000 It's like, well, hell, you haven't studied it in 100 years.
01:02:45.000 They haven't?
01:02:46.000 Yeah, no.
01:02:47.000 Most of these, when people work to consult with museums, most of these items are in boxes and often poorly managed and maintained.
01:02:59.000 So they're just sitting somewhere in storage?
01:03:01.000 Right.
01:03:02.000 So the museum owns it and they're kind of hoarding it?
01:03:05.000 Yeah.
01:03:05.000 Interesting.
01:03:06.000 So this Kennewick man, can you pull up some information about that?
01:03:12.000 Yeah, great, because I'm forgetting my dates when that happened.
01:03:15.000 Yeah, I'm very curious what the dates would be.
01:03:17.000 Now, when we're talking about Native Americans, do you agree with the idea? 0.99
01:03:25.000 Okay, let's see here.
01:03:26.000 Kennewick man finally is free.
01:03:28.000 Oh, they did so much study on him.
01:03:30.000 Human skeleton ever found in North America.
01:03:33.000 He's a handsome fellow.
01:03:34.000 Let me see that picture.
01:03:36.000 Looks normal.
01:03:38.000 Imagine you just ran into that guy at 7-Eleven.
01:03:40.000 Like, what's up, bro?
01:03:41.000 Looks like a modern American. 0.59
01:03:44.000 A modern human, I should say.
01:03:46.000 That's the bones.
01:03:47.000 Ferris Bones.
01:03:48.000 Oh, wow.
01:03:48.000 His rib bones.
01:03:49.000 So what is...
01:03:50.000 Does it give us a date on his...
01:03:53.000 What they have...
01:03:55.000 Go to that picture the teeth again.
01:03:58.000 That's crazy.
01:03:59.000 So just let me tell you that looking at human remains for many tribal peoples is difficult.
01:04:07.000 It's like looking at a naked body.
01:04:11.000 I mean it's the essence of someone that, you know, we shouldn't be seeing.
01:04:18.000 Oh, so you shouldn't be seeing even these images?
01:04:20.000 That should have been in the ground.
01:04:22.000 That should have gone and disappeared.
01:04:24.000 It had a journey.
01:04:26.000 It got interrupted.
01:04:30.000 Some tribes and cultures believe that that's harmful to interact or look at or just a little bit humiliating.
01:04:42.000 It's exposed, right?
01:04:46.000 So seeing them on display in a museum is particularly offensive.
01:04:49.000 Oh, God, yeah.
01:04:51.000 And at least in the United States, you won't find that in any kind of public museum.
01:04:58.000 Now, you might in some kind of private institution or private collection.
01:05:02.000 Well, you do with mummies, right? 0.98
01:05:05.000 But with Native American people, they've decided that that's offensive to the culture, so they've removed it. 1.00
01:05:10.000 Is that what you're saying?
01:05:11.000 Well, that's also happening.
01:05:12.000 You're finding another...
01:05:15.000 In other countries who – in Egypt, for example, and other cultures that they're trying to get those back too.
01:05:26.000 Imagine if there was a museum where you can go and look at Ronald Reagan's head.
01:05:31.000 Right?
01:05:31.000 Some people would probably enjoy that.
01:05:33.000 For sure, I'd go.
01:05:34.000 But – But it is one of those things where it's like, okay, I gotta get it, right?
01:05:40.000 So if you have the bones of Sitting Bull on display in some sort of a plexiglass case in a museum, and people are like, oh, wow, that's cool.
01:05:49.000 Okay, would that be cool if that was Ronald Reagan?
01:05:52.000 Would that be cool if that was someone from our lifetime that died?
01:05:57.000 What if they had Janis Joplin's head?
01:05:59.000 You know, in a box somewhere and you can go stare at it.
01:06:01.000 Wouldn't that weird you out?
01:06:02.000 Or how about Amy Winehouse? 0.97
01:06:04.000 How about someone who died?
01:06:05.000 Yeah.
01:06:05.000 See what I'm saying?
01:06:06.000 Yeah.
01:06:07.000 Someone who died really recently.
01:06:08.000 It'd be like, what are you doing?
01:06:10.000 Maybe we need to look at it that way.
01:06:12.000 Yeah.
01:06:12.000 Well, and that's the thing is that we don't seem to look at Native people in that way.
01:06:16.000 We don't seem to go, oh, that's not okay.
01:06:20.000 Oh, it's not okay to outlaw their religion.
01:06:22.000 Well, how would I feel if someone did that to me, right?
01:06:25.000 Right.
01:06:25.000 It's double standard or I don't know what you call it, but it's just racism.
01:06:31.000 Yeah, in a way.
01:06:32.000 Yeah, racism is the right word.
01:06:34.000 Can you go to Kennewick Man again and find out what the date is?
01:06:38.000 I'm just curious as to what the date is of his demise, like what they date his skeleton back to.
01:06:47.000 This is something that someone actually had brought up to me that there are many Native American cultures that don't believe the story of people coming across the Bering Land Bridge from Asia.
01:06:59.000 Is that something that...
01:07:01.000 That's just one story.
01:07:03.000 So that's just one theory about how the Western Hemisphere was populated.
01:07:07.000 There are many of those stories.
01:07:09.000 And what's interesting is that science...
01:07:12.000 A lot of indigenous peoples have stories that go back hundreds and hundreds of years.
01:07:21.000 And there's a great book.
01:07:22.000 So if you really want some good books, we've got to get you into some indigenous authors, one of which is Vine Deloria, who is passed on.
01:07:32.000 But he was an attorney and a scholar and wrote a book in the late 60s, early 70s called Custard Died for Your Sins.
01:07:40.000 And it was It's known as the Indian Manifesto, right?
01:07:46.000 Custer died for your sins.
01:07:47.000 What is his name?
01:07:49.000 Vine Deloria.
01:07:51.000 He also wrote a book called Red Earth, White Lies, and he talks about Western science and its arrogance of creating these theories like the Bering Strait land bridge and never really considering – never going and asking indigenous peoples about Well,
01:08:24.000 what is the story that most Native Americans accept?
01:08:27.000 Is it the idea that they came from a bunch of different places?
01:08:30.000 It's their own origin stories.
01:08:32.000 For example, the Choctaw Nation has a few origin stories.
01:08:36.000 One of which includes coming out of the ground at a certain area in the southeast.
01:08:43.000 Coming out of the ground?
01:08:44.000 Coming out of the ground.
01:08:45.000 So being birthed out of the ground in a certain area.
01:08:49.000 And then there's another migration story.
01:08:51.000 So a lot of – I have one elder said, okay, you want to hear an origin story.
01:08:59.000 Do you want the – The 5,000-year version, the 20,000-year version, the 40,000-year version.
01:09:04.000 And he would go into the story about how many people in the southwest and southeast and up into the northeast actually came from the south and were slaves of Aztec and other civilizations down south that had been released and began migrating up through the north.
01:09:26.000 And there are other stories that have us come from other places by boat.
01:09:35.000 I mean, there were also great canoe and water fairs.
01:09:40.000 And so I think there's a lot...
01:09:45.000 A lot to unpack there that science really has ignored.
01:09:50.000 And Vine Delory is great, though, when he talks about these things in Red Earth, White Lies, because he has a sense of humor about it.
01:10:01.000 Oh yeah, here we are in Asia.
01:10:04.000 Wow, there's a big sheet of ice up there.
01:10:07.000 That looks like a good place to go.
01:10:08.000 Let's go.
01:10:09.000 And he talks about how there's theories of trees and horses at a certain period of time that migrated back and forth among the land bridge and how that could have occurred and how sometimes it doesn't seem quite logical.
01:10:27.000 What science has put together there.
01:10:31.000 Do you know the full story about the land bridge though?
01:10:33.000 Like the scientific version?
01:10:35.000 The full story.
01:10:36.000 Yeah, I mean it really was a country.
01:10:39.000 I mean it was not just like a thin bridge.
01:10:42.000 No, it was a big sheet of ice that may have had little areas of where you could survive.
01:10:53.000 But from what I understand about it, Yeah, maybe I probably don't know it well enough.
01:11:03.000 There's animals on it.
01:11:05.000 I mean it's the way – they're changing the way they look at it on almost a daily basis.
01:11:11.000 Right.
01:11:12.000 But the way the theory began, it was just a very small group of scientists who – Made a determination that this was the way that the Western Hemisphere was populated and what a lot of indigenous scholars contemplated was that was an easy way to basically Devalue our place in the Western Hemisphere.
01:11:42.000 That we came from somewhere else, yes.
01:11:44.000 That's the resistance.
01:11:45.000 The science behind it is that the oceans were lower.
01:11:49.000 The oceans were lower during the Ice Age.
01:11:51.000 And they believe that that area between Asia and North America was not just like a land bridge, but was a land mass that was populated with animals.
01:12:04.000 And that it would have been a natural progression for human beings to make their way across that.
01:12:09.000 In fact, it's a funny story.
01:12:11.000 There was a guy who was a Mormon who was trying to prove that Native Americans were the lost tribe of Israel.
01:12:18.000 And do you know the story behind that?
01:12:20.000 Oh, yes.
01:12:20.000 Yeah.
01:12:20.000 So he did DNA tests on Native Americans and find out that they actually came from Siberia.
01:12:25.000 That's one of the scientific substantiations of the land mass theory.
01:12:30.000 But there are other migrations that are still left untested.
01:12:33.000 I'm 100% convinced that people have been traveling the world.
01:12:38.000 I mean, just like the Polynesians landed in Hawaii. 0.99
01:12:41.000 People have done wild shit from the beginning of time. 0.92
01:12:45.000 I mean, there's so many confusing artifacts and things in North America and South America, particularly the Olmecs, I believe are somewhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years old that have very African-looking faces in their carvings or at least very thick lips and thick faces. 0.97
01:13:05.000 I mean, it's really interesting.
01:13:07.000 And then they don't know where they came from.
01:13:09.000 They don't know much about their culture at all.
01:13:11.000 And there's many myths of people arriving places in boats and traveling around in boats.
01:13:18.000 So there's more likely to me Is that just people have had wanderlust since the beginning of time.
01:13:25.000 We traveled all over the world. 0.98
01:13:26.000 Some people came to North America and they're like, holy shit, this spot's awesome. 0.98
01:13:30.000 Right. 0.98
01:13:30.000 Yeah. 0.98
01:13:30.000 But we have a tendency to take a few facts that we understand from science or a few sites that we're able to find. 0.98
01:13:38.000 This happens a lot in North America and then base a theory on it without really critical investigation and not getting all the facts.
01:13:46.000 And so that's what indigenous peoples have been left out of those stories, have been left out of Haven't been at the table to have those discussions about what they understand to be true about certain areas.
01:13:58.000 Here's where my question's coming from.
01:13:59.000 Is it offensive because the insinuation is that Native American people aren't really American anyway?
01:14:07.000 They came from somewhere else as well?
01:14:09.000 That everybody came from somewhere else?
01:14:11.000 They just were here a little bit earlier so it's not theirs?
01:14:13.000 Is that the idea?
01:14:14.000 Right.
01:14:15.000 That's one idea.
01:14:18.000 You know, we've always been considered an inferior race, right?
01:14:23.000 And the fact that we're still left out of decision-making about our own lands and our own rights and our own sacred spaces, we're still left out of decision-making.
01:14:39.000 Our ideas are not even considered in science.
01:14:42.000 They're not considered in journalism, they're not considered in medicine, or they're not considered...
01:14:48.000 In what way?
01:14:49.000 In what way they're not considered in science?
01:14:54.000 There's traditional environmental knowledge That a lot of people who deal in environmental protection have utilized to help protect large areas,
01:15:16.000 and it has to do with how different How different flora and fauna work together as a collective versus oftentimes in our Western way of thinking,
01:15:33.000 we kill all the wolves or we kill all the predators.
01:15:37.000 We get rid of all these plants and animals that used to all work together and Symbiotically in order to create a healthy environment and there's really important traditional environmental knowledge by many wisdom keepers across Native America that are trying to re-implement the
01:16:07.000 things that have gone wrong in their environments and trying to replace what has been screwed up.
01:16:13.000 When you hear an origin story like the one where you were talking about people coming out of the earth, how do you decipher that?
01:16:24.000 Well, I've actually been to that origin site and It looks like a female. 0.93
01:16:34.000 It's a place where we were birthed.
01:16:37.000 It looks like a female? 1.00
01:16:38.000 It looks like a place where we were birthed out of Mother Earth.
01:16:45.000 It's a beautiful, amazing, and almost shocking place.
01:16:50.000 Where is this place?
01:16:51.000 This is in Mississippi.
01:16:52.000 So you think that that might be true?
01:16:56.000 That's our origin story, or that's one of our origin stories.
01:17:00.000 Right, but you understand how scientifically that would be a real problem, right?
01:17:03.000 People coming out of the ground like poppies.
01:17:07.000 Maybe, maybe not.
01:17:08.000 Maybe not.
01:17:10.000 I think there are stories and narratives that we're no longer connected with.
01:17:16.000 And our lives today are so out of context with the natural world that we don't know what's possible anymore.
01:17:25.000 We've been so separated from that.
01:17:28.000 Even to imagine...
01:17:31.000 Yeah, but we have a clear line from ancient hominids to modern human beings that science has been able to piece together.
01:17:39.000 That's one story, right?
01:17:41.000 That's a story.
01:17:42.000 Another story is we came out of the ground like roses.
01:17:45.000 Do you think that's possible, though?
01:17:46.000 That seems highly unlikely.
01:17:49.000 Like, if you had money to bet, I'd give you a thousand bucks, and you could put it on this or that.
01:17:54.000 You could put it on, well, we probably...
01:17:58.000 People got here by all sorts of means the way people got everywhere by all sorts of means or they came out of the ground like flowers.
01:18:05.000 Or Adam and Eve and all that other jazz.
01:18:08.000 Yeah, all that other jazz as well.
01:18:10.000 Put all the nuts and stuff.
01:18:12.000 But these stories, whether they're our origin stories, that they create our identity, they create who we are at the center of our being.
01:18:20.000 And they have lessons to teach us.
01:18:22.000 And they also remind us what we're responsible for.
01:18:26.000 And that's what I'm saying, that we've been so separated from that part of us and our connection to the natural world and to the earth.
01:18:34.000 Right, so we're a part of the earth.
01:18:36.000 We're a part of the earth.
01:18:37.000 We come from the earth.
01:18:38.000 Whether or not we're actually born out of the ground is not really relevant.
01:18:42.000 We're responsible for it.
01:18:44.000 So we were put in certain places to be responsible and caretake for that area.
01:18:48.000 So a lot of these stories, they're essentially trying to connect people with the idea that they are a part of this great earth.
01:18:58.000 They're a part of this beautiful ecosystem.
01:19:01.000 And maybe this origin story is devised to sort of explain to them in a way that makes a clear connection.
01:19:12.000 Does that make sense?
01:19:13.000 Oh, absolutely.
01:19:14.000 Absolutely.
01:19:15.000 But it's part of who many tribal nations are.
01:19:24.000 This is our place.
01:19:25.000 This is our homeland.
01:19:27.000 This is what we're responsible for.
01:19:29.000 And we haven't been able to do what we were put here to do.
01:19:33.000 Our purpose has been ripped away from us.
01:19:36.000 So a lot of the work we do is to try to work towards environmental healing and try to Bring lands back into our landholding so that we can caretake for that land.
01:19:56.000 That's not all over Indian Country.
01:20:00.000 There are some places in Indian Country that extract oil and do things that could be harmful for the environment.
01:20:15.000 And we do what we can with what we got.
01:20:20.000 And nations are sovereign.
01:20:23.000 The tribes are sovereign.
01:20:24.000 So they get to decide what's best for them and whether they're going to be sustainable or not.
01:20:29.000 What do you think would be best case scenario for Native Americans in the United States?
01:20:34.000 I'll sort of give you the magic wand again.
01:20:37.000 What would be best case scenario?
01:20:40.000 Because the strange thing that we have in front of us here is that there is one country, the United States, but there's not just...
01:20:51.000 United States, North American citizens here.
01:20:54.000 There's also Native Americans of various different tribes that have their own reservations.
01:21:02.000 And as you said, they're sovereign and they can kind of make their own decisions.
01:21:06.000 What would be...
01:21:07.000 What's the magic?
01:21:09.000 How do you clear up all these problems associated with the...
01:21:15.000 I mean, the horrific treatment, everything from alcoholism to the problems with schools to self-esteem issues, all these problems in North America, while also not...
01:21:31.000 The Native Americans, the way I'm looking at it, they want to stay a member of their tribe and they don't necessarily want to be just Americans.
01:21:41.000 They want to keep their heritage, right?
01:21:44.000 Universally.
01:21:45.000 How do those two things work together?
01:21:49.000 How do we all live together in America and yet have these tribes and do it in a way that works best for everybody?
01:21:58.000 Right. 0.97
01:21:59.000 Well, that's a freaking complicated-ass question that you just freaking ask. 0.97
01:22:05.000 Even with a magic wand, I'm not quite... 0.75
01:22:08.000 But it's a process, and part of it is these myths that we have to correct and that we have to find a new way to be able to tell our stories.
01:22:21.000 And not rely on non-Indian authors to tell our stories, but you need to hear our stories from us.
01:22:31.000 We need to be able to tell our stories and to reteach the general public about who Native Americans are, where we've been, and where we want to go.
01:22:44.000 Where do you want to go?
01:22:46.000 We've had this kind of pretend fantasy world about Indians, you know, Pocahontas, Columbus stories, Custer.
01:23:01.000 They've all been stories that have Fed into the American politic in a certain way at certain periods of time.
01:23:12.000 And what I want is that this is the time now where tribal nations have a lot to lose.
01:23:24.000 And we're in a current administration that is trying to terminate us once again.
01:23:32.000 What are they doing differently than other administrations?
01:23:35.000 Well, they are taking land out of trust status.
01:23:45.000 There are groups that are attacking the basis of federal Indian law and the rights that we do have.
01:23:54.000 So there's an act called the Indian Child Welfare Act.
01:23:57.000 It was passed in 1978, and it's an act that the association was heavily involved in to get passed.
01:24:04.000 And it started with some work with the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe.
01:24:09.000 And a woman came to the people back then and said, they took my kids.
01:24:14.000 They stole my children.
01:24:16.000 And after investigation, it was found that it wasn't just happening at Spirit Lake, but it was happening all over Indian country where state welfare workers were taking Indian children in a disproportionate rate.
01:24:33.000 A quarter of all Indian children during that period of time were taken away from their own families and adopted out to white families.
01:24:43.000 And so the Indian Child Welfare Act required state courts to do things before a child was taken away from its tribal nation.
01:24:54.000 There are groups now that are working to dismantle that act.
01:25:01.000 For what purpose?
01:25:03.000 Because they think it's racist.
01:25:08.000 So it's like they've taken it and are looking through a backwards mirror.
01:25:15.000 So instead of it being an act that was passed to protect our children and to make sure that children had ties to their culture and their families, they're saying that that's not in the best interest of children.
01:25:32.000 So they're still looking at Indian tribes as we can't take care of our own kids, that our way of life is not acceptable and other adoptive families would be better.
01:25:47.000 And what's interesting is that the Indian Child Welfare Act doesn't prevent non-Indian families from adopting children.
01:25:54.000 It just requires a certain process to make sure that the affiliated tribal nation is involved In that placement and adoption process so that the child can maintain those connections or that they try to find a family that's more culturally appropriate for the child.
01:26:17.000 So there's just been, actually it came out of the Goldwater Institute, which is a Goldwater, when he was a, what was he, a senator?
01:26:27.000 He actually voted for the Indian Child Welfare Act, but today the Goldwater Institute is actually funding cases around the nation to attack the Indian Child Welfare Act.
01:26:38.000 What is the reason behind it?
01:26:40.000 I mean, what are they trying to achieve?
01:26:42.000 They say it's not in the best interest of Indian children.
01:26:45.000 And even though there are child welfare organizations around the country that say the Indian Child Welfare Act is actually the gold standard in child welfare and that we should be utilizing those principles that are used in the Indian Child Welfare Act to protect all children to maintain familial connections.
01:27:04.000 When I'm asking you this in terms of like if you had a magic wand, what do you do?
01:27:08.000 The reason why I'm asking you this is because I've thought about it.
01:27:11.000 I've sat down and tried to go over it myself and I don't see a solution.
01:27:16.000 What's so strange to me is that we have nations inside of our nation and I don't want to end it.
01:27:26.000 And I don't want to continue it.
01:27:29.000 Neither one makes sense to me.
01:27:31.000 To end it would be to say, you're forced to assimilate.
01:27:35.000 You no longer have sovereignty.
01:27:36.000 We're going to break the last treaty and disband the reservations and make everybody just be a United States citizen.
01:27:42.000 That seems crazy.
01:27:44.000 Well, everyone is a US citizen.
01:27:45.000 So citizenship was forced on us in 1924, I believe.
01:27:50.000 But I mean a U.S. citizen like I'm a U.S. citizen where I can't start my own casino and I can't just do whatever I want to do.
01:27:55.000 But do you understand why that is?
01:27:59.000 Oh, yes.
01:28:00.000 No, I do.
01:28:02.000 The reason why I'm saying it this way is because I'm just trying to look at it from an overhead view.
01:28:07.000 Like if I was an alien and I was trying to sort this out, I had no ties to either culture.
01:28:12.000 I'd be like, what are you doing with that?
01:28:14.000 Like, what do you do with that? 0.60
01:28:15.000 Like, I understand that these people have been massively fucked over, that genocide was perpetrated on their race, that they were wiped out both with disease and by military actions and soldiers and treaties were broken. 0.77
01:28:31.000 I get it. 0.96
01:28:33.000 The state they're in right now, when you look at what we're talking about with these reservations, the horrific conditions and the problems with drug abuse and alcoholism and suicide and despair and self-esteem and all these issues, what is the solution?
01:28:50.000 If there was an unlimited budget, what would you do?
01:28:54.000 If it's President Shannon, if you got elected, you could win, right?
01:28:59.000 You could be president.
01:29:00.000 Anybody could be president.
01:29:01.000 Yeah, I think so.
01:29:01.000 Right.
01:29:02.000 So if you won and you became the president and you ran on part of what your platform was, was fixing this gigantic sore that we have in this country, our relationship with the tribes, what would you do?
01:29:20.000 Unlimited resources.
01:29:21.000 You do whatever you want Well, I don't know if it has anything to do with the tribes.
01:29:27.000 I think it has more to do with the general public.
01:29:31.000 And it's about changing perspective.
01:29:34.000 I think if we're properly educated about history, I think if we really understand who Native people are and their importance here and their importance to continue as sovereign tribal nations And it has to start with public education.
01:29:59.000 We have to recreate what's important to us here.
01:30:05.000 And I think Indian nations have been here.
01:30:11.000 I think they're a symbol of amazing prosperity that the country could have, and we've just never tapped into it.
01:30:20.000 And I'm talking about just principles and values that we don't seem to hold anymore in this country.
01:30:30.000 Appreciation of nature and our symbiotic relationship with it.
01:30:34.000 I feel like you're kind of being sarcastic.
01:30:38.000 No, not at all.
01:30:40.000 I think that's one of the major problems we have in this country, is we don't have an appreciation of nature.
01:30:47.000 We really don't.
01:30:49.000 And it's not just an appreciation of it.
01:30:52.000 I think it's a connection to it.
01:30:53.000 We can't survive without it.
01:30:56.000 And we're so interrelated to everything that happens on this earth.
01:31:03.000 And we don't look seven generations ahead of us to see what our decisions today are going to do to us in the future.
01:31:14.000 We're constantly looking for the dollar today and how that's going to reward our efforts today.
01:31:20.000 And we're not looking how, you know, what the lives of our children are going to look like, what the lives of our great-great-grandchildren are going to look like.
01:31:30.000 And I think those are the kind of values that we need in our country now.
01:31:34.000 And I think that's what's being debated in the Democratic campaign right now.
01:31:43.000 You know, where are our values?
01:31:45.000 Are we going to, you know, continue to support corporate society and corporate sponsored everything?
01:31:53.000 Or are we going to start looking at what we want, you know, 100 years from now?
01:31:58.000 Well, that's certainly what's going on right now with the Democratic debates.
01:32:01.000 Yeah.
01:32:01.000 Yeah.
01:32:02.000 And it seems like corporate's winning, even though their spokesperson could barely talk, which is hilarious.
01:32:08.000 I mean, it just shows you how strong money and media and the influence of the DNC is.
01:32:14.000 What would all this education do, though, in explaining to people to...
01:32:20.000 The American citizens that are outside the tribes, how is that going to help the tribes themselves? 0.70
01:32:25.000 What could be done to help these problems that we've already detailed, the problems with alcoholism, the problems with suicide and despair and self-esteem, all these horrific conditions that exist on many, many tribes?
01:32:37.000 Well, part of that is not anyone's problem but ours.
01:32:43.000 That we have to deal with as sovereign nations within our own communities and how we choose to fix those issues.
01:32:51.000 But I think looking outside how we can really affect change, there's something called prior and informed consent.
01:33:04.000 And it's contained within the UN Declaration of Indigenous Peoples.
01:33:10.000 And it requires a state or a government to include tribal nations in the decision-making processes that affect them.
01:33:22.000 So this administration has been horrible at it, absolutely horrible at it.
01:33:29.000 The Obama administration was much better.
01:33:32.000 But we need to be part, we need to be the decision makers in the things that affect us.
01:33:39.000 So if you are going to bulldoze and blow up our sacred sites to build your border wall, It seems like the proper thing to do first would be to have a conversation with us and for us to make a decision about how we can do that a little bit better to protect those sacred sites and natural springs and other things along the border instead of just blowing up everything.
01:34:06.000 Where was the situation that was happening during the Obama administration where they were trying to put a pipeline through and they were hosing people down and it was on private land and they were going through private land and people were protesting it but they were forcing it through anyway.
01:34:22.000 Where was that?
01:34:22.000 That was Standing Rock in North Dakota.
01:34:28.000 That's still going on today.
01:34:30.000 In fact, I think this week— Is that native land?
01:34:33.000 Well, the Fort Laramie Treaty, I think, is affected by that.
01:34:38.000 So there are some land right issues there, but we're talking about burials in sacred areas, not to mention water quality.
01:34:48.000 And the tribes—Obama stopped it, but as soon as Trump got into office, he pushed it forward.
01:34:58.000 And did not consult with tribes.
01:35:00.000 And it's been a fight ever since.
01:35:02.000 Same thing happened with- But Obama was going through it initially.
01:35:05.000 Yes.
01:35:05.000 And then they put a stop to it right before he left office.
01:35:09.000 Right.
01:35:09.000 Right.
01:35:09.000 Right.
01:35:10.000 I mean, I'm so cynical. 0.98
01:35:13.000 I wonder how much of that is horseshit. 0.96
01:35:15.000 How much of that is, well, put a stop to it. 0.96
01:35:17.000 You know, it's going through.
01:35:19.000 Don't worry, boys.
01:35:20.000 Right.
01:35:20.000 Well, you know, the Obama administration was probably one of the more favorable administrations to Indian Country.
01:35:28.000 There were many presidents that had never even gone to a reservation like the majority of presidents.
01:35:35.000 And he did.
01:35:36.000 And he did.
01:35:37.000 Actually, he was adopted into the Crow Nation, I think.
01:35:41.000 So he's an adopted tribal member.
01:35:44.000 That's pretty cool.
01:35:45.000 Do you think he's visited since then?
01:35:47.000 I don't know, but that administration really did a lot of work in Indian Country that had never been done before and they actually were looking to tribes and building a government to government relationship that no one had ever really done as well.
01:36:08.000 Every year they would hold a big tribal consultation in D.C. where tribal leaders would come from everywhere.
01:36:15.000 And consult with Obama and his administration.
01:36:20.000 It was really unprecedented and it was a really happy time.
01:36:28.000 And as soon as Trump got into office, The doors closed.
01:36:33.000 The doors closed.
01:36:35.000 So even though he appointed Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs, Tara Sweeney, who's Alaska Native, that administration in the Department of Interior and under the president has just been so closed.
01:36:54.000 It's been hard to get anything done or to get heard or even actually have that government-to-government relationship anymore.
01:37:01.000 We've been left out of a lot of the decision-making process that's going on all over Indian Country.
01:37:09.000 Well, that's a very good thing to hear about Obama that he did that.
01:37:14.000 It's sad to hear that the Trump administration has abandoned that, but it's nice to hear that someone was making an attempt to do that.
01:37:22.000 So what I'm getting is that there really is no...
01:37:32.000 I think there's a lot of solutions.
01:37:34.000 I think there's a lot of solutions and a lot of moving parts.
01:37:42.000 Indian nations need to determine for themselves how best to handle the problems within their communities, but outward facing to have a strong government-to-government relationship that takes into account, not just takes into account,
01:37:58.000 but actually requires the prior and informed consent of those tribal nations before affecting their rights or Or at least some diplomacy or negotiation with varying interests before decisions are made.
01:38:16.000 I think that's the heart of what needs to happen outward facing.
01:38:21.000 And also we need to take a new look at our curriculum in schools.
01:38:25.000 We really need to...
01:38:27.000 All of our curriculum in public schools is about looking at Native American pre-1900.
01:38:36.000 So, and not carrying that into today and who contemporary Native American tribes are and what they're doing to help their people and what's so wonderful about Indian country today is that though there are some places that are still,
01:38:58.000 there are some anti-Indian hate groups out there that fight tooth and nail against anything a tribe in their area tries to do to develop economically.
01:39:10.000 There are other communities where tribes have been able to bring in economic development, whether that's through gaming or otherwise.
01:39:18.000 And by the way, Indian gaming is like no other type of corporate gaming.
01:39:24.000 And I think a lot of people don't understand this.
01:39:27.000 Go to Indian casinos because that money goes towards Indian nation governance.
01:39:33.000 It's not like a private business.
01:39:35.000 It is legislated that that money from those casinos go back into Indian nation governance and are used for jobs and employment.
01:39:49.000 And social services.
01:39:50.000 And all of that relieves the state and other government agencies from having that responsibility.
01:40:00.000 So are those the success stories of modern Indian life?
01:40:03.000 Those are the success stories.
01:40:05.000 I mean if you look at – so Oklahoma – the state of Oklahoma is fighting Indian nations in Oklahoma about gaming, trying to get more money out of gaming. 0.71
01:40:17.000 But Oklahoma tribes have brought in tons of money.
01:40:25.000 100,000 jobs have been created in casino and other economic development.
01:40:33.000 Trevor Burrus So who's fighting it and why?
01:40:35.000 The governor is fine.
01:40:36.000 Governor Stitt I think is his name.
01:40:40.000 And he's trying to renegotiate gaming compacts in order to bring more money into the state.
01:40:49.000 So essentially trying to tax that for state purposes.
01:40:57.000 Even though it's on native land.
01:40:58.000 Right.
01:40:58.000 Right.
01:40:59.000 Interesting.
01:41:00.000 So it's almost in a way another attempt at violating a treaty.
01:41:05.000 Absolutely.
01:41:06.000 So denying the sovereign nation.
01:41:08.000 Right.
01:41:09.000 Well, in the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which was passed, there's so much federal legislation.
01:41:14.000 It's insane.
01:41:16.000 Federal Indian law, I mean, it has its own 25 U.S.C., this huge code of stuff, man.
01:41:24.000 But the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act was passed because Indians were finding success doing gaming and states were getting pissed off because they were doing it without any interference, which is their inherent sovereignty to do so.
01:41:41.000 That's hilarious.
01:41:42.000 So this act came, which was kind of a compromise where tribes can do what's called Class 2 gaming, which is based on bingo.
01:41:53.000 And there's electronic bingo games that are kind of like slot machines.
01:41:58.000 So tribes can do Class 2 gaming without any interference with the state.
01:42:03.000 But if they do Class 3 gaming, that's card games and other types Then the state, they have to work with the state in order to develop some kind of compact and revenue sharing for Class III gaming.
01:42:18.000 So the state, the federal government again allowed state to interfere with that inherent tribal sovereignty to regulate their own economic development.
01:42:28.000 Yeah, that's an issue with all of these Native American casinos, isn't it? 1.00
01:42:33.000 They don't get the full Vegas treatment.
01:42:35.000 They can't have all the games that Vegas can have. 0.84
01:42:37.000 They can.
01:42:38.000 That's the Class 3 gaming.
01:42:40.000 But they have to do it through the state versus through their sovereign government.
01:42:44.000 It's so strange, right?
01:42:46.000 It's like, on the one hand, they get no help at all.
01:42:50.000 And then when something comes along that allows them to economically thrive, then the government's like, hold on, where's our peace?
01:42:58.000 So why do you think this is?
01:43:00.000 Because they can.
01:43:02.000 And so much legislation looks at tribes as if they're inferior.
01:43:07.000 So back again to those watershed cases of Justice Marshall.
01:43:12.000 They're inferior.
01:43:13.000 Even being able to assert jurisdiction over non-Indians who come into our territory and do something wrong. 1.00
01:43:24.000 We can't.
01:43:25.000 Right.
01:43:25.000 So if someone breaks the law in a Native American reservation, they're under the federal government's guidelines or the state government's laws.
01:43:35.000 The tribe does not have criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians.
01:43:39.000 So if someone comes in and robs a casino, then the state has to take care of it.
01:43:44.000 Right.
01:43:45.000 State or the federal government, depending on what type of crime.
01:43:47.000 Ideally, would it be that the Native Americans would take care of it? 1.00
01:43:51.000 Yeah.
01:43:51.000 Why not?
01:43:51.000 Yeah.
01:43:52.000 It'd be funny if they brought back, like, hanging.
01:43:55.000 Capital punishment. 0.99
01:43:56.000 Let's just hang people in the streets, see how that works. 1.00
01:43:58.000 Look, no more robberies.
01:44:00.000 Do you think that's what we did back in the day?
01:44:02.000 No, no, I'm just saying.
01:44:03.000 Imagine if they just came up with their own rules arbitrarily, completely outside of the state's laws and the federal government's laws.
01:44:11.000 I don't think that's what they did.
01:44:12.000 That's not what I'm saying.
01:44:13.000 I'm just saying, wouldn't it be crazy if they just went, like, let's pretend this is our own country.
01:44:18.000 We do whatever we want. 0.98
01:44:19.000 We're going to hang people. 0.95
01:44:22.000 I don't think it's a good idea. 0.98
01:44:24.000 I'm just saying it would be pretty nuts.
01:44:25.000 It is strange that there's this push and pull here, right?
01:44:33.000 They're sovereign.
01:44:34.000 They can do what they want.
01:44:35.000 They have these casinos.
01:44:37.000 But hold on, hold on, hold on with this, doing what you want.
01:44:40.000 Now you're under the guidelines of the federal government and the state government.
01:44:44.000 Now we want a piece.
01:44:44.000 We want a little bit of this and regulations and this and that.
01:44:48.000 It is.
01:44:49.000 It's essentially not accepting the fact that they're sovereign.
01:44:54.000 It's a fake acceptance.
01:44:56.000 It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're on your own until you start doing really well.
01:45:01.000 And then it's like, hold on there.
01:45:02.000 Now you're not on your own.
01:45:04.000 Yeah, it's this really weird triangle of power, state, federal, and tribal jurisdiction, and it's completely confusing.
01:45:13.000 When I was a student, I was a fellow with a program called Udall Fellowship that was named after Stuart Udall.
01:45:26.000 Who was he?
01:45:27.000 He was a very strong environmentalist who did a lot of work to protect Indian lands and the environment.
01:45:36.000 And so in his name, there's a fellowship created.
01:45:41.000 And it's funded through congressional appropriations every year.
01:45:46.000 And so now you're making me forget my story here.
01:45:52.000 I'm sorry.
01:45:54.000 So when I was a an intern back in the day and I was in the Clinton White House, that's a whole another story.
01:46:05.000 I'm completely lost.
01:46:06.000 I completely lost my story.
01:46:08.000 I'm sorry.
01:46:09.000 No worries.
01:46:09.000 I need more turmeric coffee.
01:46:12.000 We can build it back.
01:46:13.000 So what we were talking about was the federal government not allowing the Native Americans to have real sovereignty over their land.
01:46:23.000 And then we went from there to you having a story that I interrupted by trying to ask what that guy's name was. 0.99
01:46:29.000 Damn! 0.99
01:46:30.000 Or what he did. 1.00
01:46:32.000 What was his name again?
01:46:34.000 Stuart Udall.
01:46:35.000 And what did he do again?
01:46:36.000 He was a senator, a congressman, and he did a lot of good things for Indians.
01:46:43.000 But that's it?
01:46:44.000 Yeah, I don't remember.
01:46:45.000 It's gone.
01:46:46.000 It's gone.
01:46:47.000 It's forever gone.
01:46:48.000 No worries.
01:46:49.000 Sucked into my brain somewhere.
01:46:53.000 So when you look at that situation, the casino situation, where now all of a sudden economically these tribes can thrive and the reservation that owns that casino can thrive, and as you're saying,
01:47:09.000 the money goes straight back to the reservation and to the people that run it, and it legitimately helps the people that live on that reservation, correct?
01:47:21.000 Absolutely.
01:47:22.000 What other things like that can be done to also take advantage of the fact that they're a sovereign nation and allow them to economically thrive without things like fracking and shit that's bad for the environment?
01:47:35.000 Are there other things that are being implemented that could also help?
01:47:38.000 Oh yeah, absolutely.
01:47:40.000 There are all different types of economic development going on in Indian country that can be very successful for external businesses too because there are certain benefits that an outside business would get if they did, for example,
01:47:57.000 manufacturing.
01:47:58.000 Within Indian Country, they could benefit from certain tax exemptions and rebates that they wouldn't get in a state.
01:48:12.000 So if corporations would go into Indian Country instead of going across the border or going somewhere else, There would be great opportunities, and some tribes are taking advantage of those business opportunities,
01:48:30.000 not just gaming, but out of gaming has grown a lot of investment, a lot of entrepreneurship in tribes, and a lot of the money has gone back to help educate and teach language and bring items back that are religious items and And ancestors and the things that are important for that tribal nation.
01:48:57.000 So there's many different ways of investment that tribal nations look at.
01:49:05.000 And it's not necessarily economic, but it's about healing their people and helping us survive and live better than we have in the past.
01:49:17.000 So investment takes many forms in Indian country.
01:49:21.000 Are there any good documentaries that can educate people on the reality of what happened to the Native American tribes?
01:49:32.000 Because it seems like it's one of the best ways for people to absorb information and get people excited about things because it kind of entertains them as well as educates them.
01:49:41.000 Is there anything that you can recommend?
01:49:44.000 So much has been produced I think PBS has put on some really good – I mean if you look at PBS, even now there are some great stories that are being told.
01:50:06.000 Yeah, no.
01:50:07.000 No.
01:50:08.000 It seems like something that someone should do.
01:50:10.000 Right.
01:50:11.000 But it's got to be done in Indian country and it's got to be done with Indian country because so much has been done without us and without our even input. 0.73
01:50:23.000 So much research and kind of one-sided storytelling.
01:50:29.000 That just doesn't make sense.
01:50:32.000 It doesn't have the cultural competency.
01:50:33.000 It doesn't have the real-life lived experience and the flavor, I guess, for lack of a better word, to tell these stories properly.
01:50:43.000 Ideally, when you look at the future of Native American tribes in the United States, and again, as you said, Native Americans that are in these reservations are United States citizens.
01:50:54.000 But it's such an unusual situation that really we only have a comparison to Canada with their First Nations.
01:51:04.000 What do you think happens in the future?
01:51:07.000 When you go from 1900, you were talking about the past of 1900 to today, it's an abysmal 120 years, other than the economic success of the casinos.
01:51:18.000 What do you anticipate happening in the next 100 years?
01:51:25.000 It's hard to tell.
01:51:26.000 I know a lot of tribes have been diversifying their economic development.
01:51:33.000 Without our cultures, we won't survive. 0.75
01:51:36.000 In fact, many elders, and you may have read it in Black Elk Speaks, that we're no longer who we are without our culture, without our languages, and likely we'll no longer be recognized by the federal government unless we are Indian enough.
01:51:56.000 You know, so those things are really important to who we are in the next hundred years.
01:52:02.000 And I think it's those things that we will be rebuilding over the next hundred years.
01:52:07.000 Healing from the last and moving forward with a newfound understanding of who we are and a stronger identity and self.
01:52:19.000 What that actually looks like and what's important, I think that We are still so dependent on the Great White Father and what happens with U.S. politics and whether we have a voice there or not. 0.54
01:52:37.000 We've got great organizations that help advocate for Indian country in general.
01:52:43.000 There's the National Congress of American Indians.
01:52:46.000 Which has been around for about 75 years and it helps lobby and educate Congress and keeps tribes informed about what's going on in politics and advocate for many of those interests.
01:53:04.000 There are groups like ours that are advocating for more cultural revitalization and strengthening identity and protecting our youth.
01:53:17.000 So I think part of what we've been building is really a coalition of organizations and tribes to strengthen who we are and kind of correct the misfortunes of our history.
01:53:40.000 We still have tribal nations out there that are living with egregious poverty and issues that still seem so far away from being corrected.
01:53:55.000 But, you know, like my grandma always said, where there's life, there's hope.
01:54:00.000 So I think we just continue to, I mean, we've freaking survived for this long and this coronavirus isn't going to take us out either.
01:54:09.000 I mean, we're going to continue to push forward and try to have a better future for our kids, just like anybody else.
01:54:18.000 Just like anybody else.
01:54:20.000 And I think that's what's important is that we're not on the stage with everyone else.
01:54:26.000 We're not at the table where decisions are being – we're not in the room where it happens.
01:54:32.000 That Native Americans are not being treated with the same respect as other people from other countries.
01:54:36.000 So like the culture of Mexico or the culture of Guatemala or name a country, Japan.
01:54:41.000 Oh hell, they're not being treated well.
01:54:44.000 But we respect them as a culture.
01:54:47.000 Like, they're thought of as...
01:54:49.000 I mean, we're not invading Mexico.
01:54:51.000 Do you know what I'm saying?
01:54:52.000 I mean, whether you agree with walls and border walls, we're not looking at them as something...
01:55:01.000 We're looking at them as another country. 0.99
01:55:02.000 We don't look at Native Americans the same way we look at... 1.00
01:55:07.000 Maybe it's because you're also United States citizens, We don't look at them the same way we have the same, like, the respect for people that live in a sovereign nation, another sovereign nation.
01:55:22.000 Even though this is a sovereign nation inside of our nation, it doesn't, I think you would agree, it doesn't get the same respect that other sovereign nations do.
01:55:31.000 Oh, absolutely.
01:55:32.000 Is there a great record, like a written record, of all of the origin stories like you were talking to me about and all of the various languages?
01:55:43.000 I mean, is all this documented to make sure that we don't lose this?
01:55:48.000 Some better than others, and a lot of that is done...
01:55:57.000 There's no big text that I can give you and share with you that here's all what you ever needed to know about Indians.
01:56:05.000 That doesn't exist.
01:56:07.000 Probably should, huh?
01:56:09.000 No.
01:56:10.000 I think that's up to the tribal nation to decide whether they want to share that and how to best educate people about who they are.
01:56:22.000 And that's what so many other people have told our stories and have taken down those histories and those people are telling the stories from a Western perspective and not having the cultural competency.
01:56:42.000 And having lived and implemented that way of life.
01:56:48.000 So it's really dependent on the tribes to determine for themselves how they want to put that forward.
01:56:54.000 There are many tribes that actually have research protocols.
01:56:57.000 If you want to study, you want to research, you have to get authority from the tribal nation to do that.
01:57:05.000 And they have to have a say in whether it was done appropriately.
01:57:12.000 So, again, it's back to us telling our own stories, us being part of our own narratives, and us being part of the decision-making that affects us.
01:57:28.000 I respect and appreciate that 100%.
01:57:29.000 What I meant was, inside the tribe, is there a documented Version of all these stories and of the language so they can be passed down.
01:57:40.000 The real concern seems to be when you're talking about these incredibly impoverished communities, the real concern is that some of these stories may be lost or some of the language may even be lost.
01:57:53.000 I think it varies.
01:57:55.000 Like I said, there's 574 federally recognized tribes and 300 other tribal groups.
01:58:03.000 Let me tell you the story about the Chittimacha, who are in Louisiana, like just surrounded by marshes right there in the Gulf of Mexico.
01:58:14.000 Their last language speaker died in the 1940s.
01:58:19.000 And even though they had, you know, language speakers around them, none of those languages were related to theirs.
01:58:30.000 Their language was more closely connected with peoples in Mesoamerica.
01:58:36.000 So obviously there was a trade, there was a relationship between who the Chittimacha are and were with people from Meso and South America.
01:58:46.000 Wow.
01:58:46.000 Yeah, I mean, there's amazing histories and stories out there, but what happened with their languages is in the 80s and 90s, the Smithsonian had all these wax cylinders of Tribal languages and songs and dances.
01:59:06.000 And they started repatriating those back to different tribal nations.
01:59:10.000 So when the Chittimacha got these wax cylinders, they're like, oh, we have a responsibility here. 0.99
01:59:15.000 We have to do something with this.
01:59:17.000 And so they pulled their community together and everyone got their grandmas and their aunties and everyone to pull together words that they knew, stories that they knew, different cultural practices and building and crafting and all of those things.
01:59:38.000 They pulled all that together with the wax cylinders.
01:59:40.000 They got some money from Rosetta Stone and recreated their language that had been lost.
01:59:49.000 And today in their schools, in their tribally run schools, they speak their language.
01:59:56.000 Those children are speaking their language from kindergarten up.
02:00:01.000 So an incredible success story, and they were able to do that because they had gaming revenue to help support that.
02:00:09.000 And when you go to the school and when you hear the story about how that happened, it's incredible.
02:00:17.000 So there are stories like that among all tribes of how they've been able to recover from what was lost.
02:00:26.000 And so it's a long process to correct.
02:00:30.000 What has happened, but there are warriors all over Indian Country and that's what they're doing every day is trying to recover what was lost.
02:00:43.000 Well, that's a great success story and it's beautiful to hear.
02:00:48.000 I just hope that that can continue with all the different stories.
02:00:54.000 When you read books about Native American culture and you just get sort of like the most surface taste of what it must have been like, it seems like there's this incredibly rich history that could Could be lost in time.
02:01:09.000 And that would be a horrible, horrible shame.
02:01:12.000 It's right here in front of us and it's here right now.
02:01:15.000 And the fact that someone like you worked so hard to get this message out here and to let people know what is actually happening and the plight of these American Indians and the tribes and what they're still going through today.
02:01:30.000 This is not a battle that happened in the 1800s.
02:01:33.000 This is a battle that's happening today.
02:01:35.000 Right.
02:01:35.000 Every day.
02:01:36.000 Every day.
02:01:37.000 Yeah.
02:01:38.000 What is currently a major focus for you?
02:01:44.000 Well, the repatriation and sacred sites issues.
02:01:48.000 So returning cultural items and ancestors back to their affiliated tribes.
02:01:54.000 And is there a lot of that out there?
02:01:57.000 So, like I said, there's that law, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, that requires any institution that received federal funding or federal agencies to work towards repatriation of items that they've received over time.
02:02:17.000 Back to their tribes. 0.92
02:02:19.000 But there are also tons of ancestors and items in international museums.
02:02:26.000 So we're working on developing strategies to go after those because a lot of those countries, there has been kind of a...
02:02:36.000 A rethinking about the purpose of museums and public education regarding indigenous peoples and how do we decolonize these institutions.
02:02:48.000 And so we're trying to work – and some countries are easier than others because if you have – Sacred religious items from American indigenous societies in some museums across the waters.
02:03:07.000 Their country considers it their cultural property.
02:03:11.000 So you need an act of their country's government in order to deaccession those items and return them home.
02:03:19.000 So there are some countries that are much more difficult to work with than others, but we're in the process of developing strategy to help with international repatriation.
02:03:31.000 We're also trying to watch private collectors and educate people about the importance of returning cultural patrimony and other sacred items that they've Received over time, whether or not there's a legal obligation to do,
02:03:48.000 there's definitely an ethical and moral obligation to return these items so that cultures can be revitalized and that those items can be put back to use.
02:03:58.000 So that's one area.
02:04:00.000 We have a repatriation conference every year that we work together with tribes and institutions and foreign governments to work on these issues.
02:04:11.000 Sacred sites.
02:04:12.000 I just was before the Indigenous Peoples Subcommittee in the House a few weeks ago talking about what's going on at the border and the Tohono O'odham chairman was there as well to talk about those issues.
02:04:28.000 And as he spoke, he was telling the Congress representatives that He just found out that they were blowing up another section.
02:04:42.000 And that is happening because there was a law in 2005 that allowed Department of Homeland Security to waive all these environmental laws and if there was an emergency to do so.
02:04:54.000 And so the administration is saying that the border wall is an emergency that allows them to waive all these environmental laws.
02:05:02.000 And so it's not just about protecting sacred sites, but all the other environmental concerns, all the animal migrations, birds, Plants and water quality that are being affected by this border wall because people strongly think we need a 30 foot,
02:05:26.000 you know, tall border.
02:05:29.000 So we're working, we continue to work to protect sacred sites.
02:05:33.000 So along the border where they're doing this and putting in the wall, many of these areas have been designated as sacred sites?
02:05:40.000 And so is that what you're saying?
02:05:42.000 Yeah, our known sacred sites.
02:05:44.000 And there's artifacts there and all sorts of different things that can be destroyed by the construction of this?
02:05:48.000 They blew up an area and found human remains.
02:05:52.000 Oh, Jesus.
02:05:54.000 Yeah.
02:05:55.000 Now, do they stop when they do that?
02:05:57.000 They repatriated those bones and they kept going.
02:06:02.000 That's it?
02:06:03.000 That's it.
02:06:04.000 That's it.
02:06:05.000 They're just moving forward.
02:06:07.000 They don't identify the bones and they look for the rest of the culture that might have existed there?
02:06:12.000 No, they're moving forward.
02:06:13.000 And you know what they're saying.
02:06:16.000 And the rhetoric around this is so detrimental because during that hearing, It was clearly about how do we protect sacred sites and how do we make sure that tribal consultation and other options can be presented so that environment and other areas are protected.
02:06:37.000 And the Republican congressman that was there, who was really quite, seems like not a nice guy, basically said there is more damage caused by migrant traffic Trash and defecating than there is by blowing up the ground.
02:07:04.000 And so that is the Department of the Interior, Homeland Security, and Republicans in Congress are saying about that border wall.
02:07:13.000 Just stop and think about how that's unchallenged. 0.90
02:07:15.000 How ridiculous a thing that is to say. 0.96
02:07:16.000 You can pick up trash. 1.00
02:07:18.000 You can pick up shit. 1.00
02:07:19.000 You can't pick up once you blow up sacred sites and bones. 1.00
02:07:22.000 It's forever.
02:07:23.000 And it's irreplaceable.
02:07:25.000 These are irreplaceable resources.
02:07:26.000 But the fact that nobody challenged him on that. 0.93
02:07:28.000 That's such a ridiculous thing to say. 0.91
02:07:30.000 Oh, we challenged them. 0.96
02:07:31.000 And Deb Holland, who is a Native American congresswoman, definitely challenged him about that.
02:07:41.000 But, you know, it's...
02:07:45.000 I think the law is on their side.
02:07:47.000 Is it safe to say that there's many areas that you're talking about along the border that are probably undiscovered because you're dealing with things that are potentially thousands of years old?
02:07:58.000 So remember, undiscovered has different meanings.
02:08:01.000 So tribes may have understandings about certain areas that other people do not, that they try to protect.
02:08:09.000 And so that's why consultation is so important.
02:08:13.000 And working with tribes so you can understand what's going on on the ground.
02:08:17.000 But usually they do some kind of...
02:08:22.000 Of minor investigation, and supposedly that was done, that is being done, but nothing's being done to protect it.
02:08:33.000 So it's known, but...
02:08:34.000 So even if they consult with the tribes, and the tribes say, this area is essentially a burial ground from a thousand years ago, and our ancestors used this.
02:08:44.000 Like, oh, that's a cool story.
02:08:45.000 We're going to put a wall here.
02:08:47.000 Yep.
02:08:48.000 Yeah, but that happens.
02:08:49.000 That's not just happening at the border.
02:08:51.000 That's happening all over the United States.
02:08:55.000 And that's nothing new.
02:08:58.000 What's new here is that all of those environmental laws and those opportunities for public comment, so it's not just tribal consultation, but even public comment have been completely waived.
02:09:10.000 Those stories always weird me out when someone's building an apartment building and they stop construction because they found some sort of a burial site underneath it and you're like, Like, how many of those are out there?
02:09:21.000 I mean, how many areas where people are digging into the ground they are going to find Some incredible archaeological discovery and it's getting, you know, smashed by a bulldozer.
02:09:35.000 Yeah, it happens all the time.
02:09:37.000 And so a lot of the context for what was happening here before Europeans came is gone because we've just destroyed all the evidence of it.
02:09:50.000 You know, so that's why often the way archaeological investigations have moved forward is they look at discrete sites without connecting the dots in a more holistic way about what's happened in a certain area.
02:10:10.000 So most of our archaeological context and all that evidence is gone, and it continues to be looted by amateur archaeologists, and of course, you know, I've worked on many...
02:10:26.000 Different developments across the country where, you know, the bulldozers come, oh, they see there's human remains there, and they just dump it into the fill.
02:10:35.000 Really?
02:10:35.000 Yeah, because they don't want to stop.
02:10:38.000 Because it's inconvenient to report.
02:10:39.000 Yeah, it costs money to stop.
02:10:40.000 Yeah, it costs a shitload of money.
02:10:42.000 It's amazing to me that there's some sites that you could just visit, like Buffalo Jumps, where they ran buffaloes off the cliff.
02:10:49.000 Like a friend of mine was telling me about this site that you could go to.
02:10:51.000 And I'm like, you could just go there?
02:10:53.000 And he's like, yeah, you find Indian points there.
02:10:56.000 I'm like, really?
02:10:57.000 You find arrow points.
02:10:58.000 So you find laying around what should be these priceless archaeological record of Native Americans, and you can just pick them up?
02:11:08.000 Yeah, just go to any little town across the country and you'll see a little antique shop somewhere and you go look on their walls and there's going to be archaeological evidence there without any context, without any understanding of where it came from, whether it's pieces of funerary object,
02:11:25.000 arrowheads, or what have you.
02:11:27.000 The arrowhead one is unbelievably common.
02:11:29.000 Oh yeah.
02:11:30.000 I found one.
02:11:31.000 I found one in Nevada.
02:11:32.000 I was on a hunt and we were in the mountains and I found this little tiny chip.
02:11:36.000 You weren't on federal land, were you?
02:11:38.000 I don't know what land we're on.
02:11:40.000 It's public land.
02:11:42.000 It was a public land hunt.
02:11:43.000 You had to draw a tag for it.
02:11:45.000 But we found this little...
02:11:46.000 And it was crazy to look at.
02:11:48.000 I'm looking at this little tiny piece.
02:11:50.000 It was like a white...
02:11:51.000 I don't know what type of rock it was made out of.
02:11:53.000 But it was stunning.
02:11:55.000 To hold that and to think this was someone's weapon that they were using to hunt with.
02:12:02.000 Who knows how long ago?
02:12:04.000 Who knows how many hundreds of years ago?
02:12:06.000 And I just stumbled upon it.
02:12:08.000 And I think that's why we're so fascinated.
02:12:10.000 Americans are so fascinated with Indians is because they're all around us.
02:12:16.000 I mean, you know, we're standing.
02:12:20.000 And that's one thing I forgot to do when we started this interview is to recognize the land where we're standing now, which is original land of the Chumash and Tongva people.
02:12:31.000 Right here.
02:12:32.000 Who are still here today.
02:12:32.000 Yes, right here.
02:12:33.000 The Valley.
02:12:34.000 Yes.
02:12:34.000 Yes.
02:12:36.000 These are indigenous lands.
02:12:39.000 Everywhere where we stand are indigenous lands.
02:12:42.000 And what's interesting is that we don't recognize that here.
02:12:46.000 There are other countries, like for example in Australia, they have any kind of public event or governmental gathering or whatever, and they recognize who were there before them.
02:12:58.000 You know, there's an acknowledgement, there's a recognition.
02:13:01.000 We've forgotten all that history.
02:13:02.000 We've forgotten what was here.
02:13:05.000 Before, even though the people are down the street, the Chumash is north of here, the Tongva are south, those people still exist. 1.00
02:13:15.000 Did they have a reservation out here?
02:13:17.000 So Tongva are not federally recognized.
02:13:20.000 So there are one of the 300 that are not?
02:13:22.000 Right, right.
02:13:23.000 And in California, I think there's 104 federally recognized tribes in California.
02:13:29.000 Wow.
02:13:31.000 California history and you're aware of the mission system, right, in California?
02:13:40.000 The mission system mean religious missions?
02:13:42.000 Yeah, the Spanish missions that were built up the coast in California and the effect that those missions had on the indigenous peoples that were here.
02:13:53.000 I know about the effort to convert them to Catholicism.
02:13:56.000 That was a huge issue at the turn of the 20th century, right?
02:14:01.000 Right.
02:14:01.000 And there are mass grave sites at every one of those missions of indigenous peoples.
02:14:13.000 Thousands of indigenous peoples died building those missions and from disease and otherwise.
02:14:22.000 I mean, think about it.
02:14:27.000 There are some teachers and professors that do different kind of work with their students, and there's this one kind of exercise of giving everyone in the class a role that you have in your society.
02:14:45.000 You know, tending agriculture or you're making clothes or you're protecting the children or you're getting food or whatever it is.
02:14:54.000 And then 96% of you are gone.
02:15:01.000 What do you do?
02:15:03.000 I mean, I can't imagine what so many of our ancestors must have lived through.
02:15:10.000 And I know for myself personally, what's driven me in my life is my grandmother telling me those stories of what she and her family had to go through to be here and saying,
02:15:26.000 we did that.
02:15:28.000 We went through all that so you could be here and you could do something better for us.
02:15:33.000 I mean, that's what drives us all, is the pain that our ancestors went through in trying to make a life for ourselves that are better.
02:15:43.000 Hey, we want a piece of that manifest destiny too, and we want it back, right?
02:15:50.000 You know, so these issues, you know, we should take you to Indian country sometime.
02:15:57.000 I would love that.
02:15:58.000 I would love that.
02:15:59.000 Where should I go?
02:16:01.000 Oh, heck.
02:16:02.000 Where do you want to go?
02:16:03.000 I want to go wherever you tell me to go.
02:16:05.000 So I think it would be important if you or anyone else would be interested.
02:16:11.000 You know, most tribal nations have websites.
02:16:15.000 Where you can learn about who they are, what their history is, and different policies and things that are important to them.
02:16:25.000 I think it would be important to go to a more affluent tribe and also to go to a tribe that maybe doesn't have that same level of economic development.
02:16:36.000 And you can find that anywhere.
02:16:38.000 You can find that here in California, in Nevada, in Washington State, in New York.
02:16:44.000 There are many places we could go.
02:16:46.000 You tell me and I'll tell you where you can go.
02:16:49.000 Well, let's work something out.
02:16:50.000 I would really like to do that.
02:16:52.000 I have my friend Cam Haynes went to an Apache Reservation in Yeah.
02:17:16.000 Just something like that is unbelievably fascinating, that this exists, and it just exists on this reservation, just sitting there, and that most people are not even aware of.
02:17:28.000 This is like an unbelievably sacred part of history that's right there.
02:17:32.000 Right, right.
02:17:33.000 And those places are constantly being looted.
02:17:38.000 There was a time in American history, 50s, 60s, 70s, where you could get these beautiful cross-country maps, right?
02:17:46.000 And many of those maps would have places where there were Indian artifacts and places that you could go and look for stuff.
02:17:56.000 Good stuff.
02:17:56.000 So a lot of things like that have been published throughout time and so folks that are interested in doing that and make their living doing that, you know, they rely on those old documents and stories of where things are and are still looting and selling those items today.
02:18:17.000 I think we in the West have this idea that if something is historic, we should be able to look at it.
02:18:27.000 We should be able to go to a place, the Smithsonian or the this or the that, and go see it.
02:18:34.000 I think what you're saying is we have to kind of re-look at that.
02:18:38.000 And that it's not ours to look at.
02:18:40.000 And that this is a part of the tribes and a part of your culture.
02:18:45.000 And this is not something you could just gawk at.
02:18:48.000 Even...
02:18:48.000 I mean, I never even thought about looking at bones.
02:18:51.000 That looking at bones would be disrespectful.
02:18:54.000 Until I thought about, like, Amy Winehouse's head sitting there at a museum. 0.98
02:18:59.000 And I'm like, yeah, that'd be kind of fucked up. 0.98
02:19:01.000 Yeah. 0.97
02:19:01.000 Yeah. 0.97
02:19:02.000 Yeah, that's...
02:19:03.000 That is a...
02:19:06.000 It requires a shift in perspective.
02:19:08.000 Right.
02:19:09.000 And I think that's all tribal nations are asking people to do, is to think differently about these issues and recreate a new and more appropriate myth about our collective history.
02:19:26.000 And let us decide for ourselves what we want to share and what we don't want to share.
02:19:34.000 And I think what you'll find is that Indian nations have shared a lot.
02:19:41.000 So this work on Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, where those museums thought they were going to lose all their collections and their shelves would be cleaned out and no exhibits anymore.
02:19:51.000 What they found instead was that they actually...
02:19:55.000 Figured out what the hell they've been holding on to this whole time.
02:19:59.000 Because now they're actually talking to the people who have experience, expertise, and cultural knowledge about these items that are in their collections.
02:20:09.000 So all of a sudden, information that they never had before.
02:20:16.000 And so the relationships that have been built between museums and those institutions and tribal nations has built something completely different than nobody had contemplated before, just from talking to Native people and understanding what those things are and where they come from and what should be shared and what shouldn't be. 0.58
02:20:41.000 There's still a lot of museums holding out though, and usually those are the big, well-funded institutions.
02:20:47.000 What's their argument?
02:20:52.000 They don't have an argument. 0.99
02:20:54.000 What's interesting is I wrote somewhere once that we're just waiting for a lot of old white people to die. 0.99
02:21:02.000 I mean, that's really the case. 0.60
02:21:05.000 There's just this old perspective, this old philosophy, this hoarding philosophy, not wanting to give things back.
02:21:16.000 Is there also, in their defense, could it be that they're really concerned that that stuff would be lost?
02:21:20.000 And that it is important historical?
02:21:24.000 Right.
02:21:24.000 And so the mission of many museums is to educate the public.
02:21:28.000 And there is this kind of arrogant, what I would consider an arrogant way of thinking about the world, like everyone should have access to knowledge and tribes don't necessarily feel that same way.
02:21:48.000 So there is that kind of that philosophy.
02:21:52.000 And so those institutions will often use the law to work against the repatriation situation and delay, mostly delay.
02:22:05.000 Most tribes don't want to fight against Thank you.
02:22:14.000 Thank you.
02:22:25.000 Discord around these sacred items or around ancestral remains is difficult.
02:22:34.000 So you don't want to bring, you know, bad energy around something that you need to care for and respect and put back in the ground.
02:22:45.000 So, you know, there's a lot of reasons why these bigger institutions are getting away with not following the law and they take advantage of it.
02:22:58.000 And so that's why my organization is important because we try to help bridge that.
02:23:03.000 It seems like some sort of cooperative effort could be reached where the things that the tribes would like people to see and would like to educate people on could be displayed in maybe some sort of a national museum of Native American history.
02:23:23.000 Really?
02:23:24.000 That is an awesome idea.
02:23:25.000 So there's this...
02:23:27.000 Is there a thing that exists?
02:23:28.000 It's called the National Museum of the American Indian.
02:23:31.000 Where is it?
02:23:32.000 In Washington, D.C. Is it huge?
02:23:34.000 Yes, it's also in...
02:23:36.000 I'm the best at coming up with ideas that already exist.
02:23:40.000 It's got a pretty screwed up story, though, of how the National Museum of the American Indian got started.
02:23:46.000 But I also want to mention, before I forget, there's wonderful tribal museums.
02:23:51.000 So there are tribes out there that have their own...
02:23:54.000 Can you give us some examples of where people can visit?
02:23:56.000 Sure.
02:23:57.000 Tulalip in Washington.
02:23:59.000 Washington State?
02:24:00.000 Washington State.
02:24:01.000 Where is that at?
02:24:02.000 That is Tulalip.
02:24:03.000 It's outside of Seattle.
02:24:04.000 Okay.
02:24:06.000 Hibulb Cultural Center.
02:24:08.000 It's Saginaw Chippewa Tribe in Michigan.
02:24:12.000 I hope I always get my M states wrong.
02:24:15.000 In Michigan, they have the Zibuwing Center of Anishinaabe Lifeways and Cultures Center. 0.75
02:24:22.000 Amazing museum.
02:24:23.000 I think they're one of my favorite.
02:24:27.000 Choctaw Nation, my nation in Oklahoma, are building a new cultural center and museum.
02:24:36.000 Where's that going to be?
02:24:37.000 That's outside of Durant.
02:24:40.000 Is there a timeline on that when they believe that's going to be done?
02:24:44.000 Very soon.
02:24:45.000 Very soon.
02:24:45.000 I'm in Oklahoma in a couple months.
02:24:49.000 Supposedly.
02:24:49.000 Well, yeah, if you can travel.
02:24:51.000 Supposedly the world doesn't end.
02:24:51.000 Yeah.
02:24:52.000 Yeah, I'll tell you exactly when I'm supposed to be there.
02:24:54.000 I'm doing gigs in Oklahoma.
02:24:56.000 I'm supposed to be there, I think, sometime in July.
02:24:59.000 Do you know where in Oklahoma?
02:25:01.000 I'll tell you when I know.
02:25:02.000 All right.
02:25:03.000 You know where I'm at?
02:25:04.000 Six.
02:25:06.000 September?
02:25:06.000 See, I don't even know what month it is.
02:25:07.000 September 12th.
02:25:08.000 Okay.
02:25:09.000 Tulsa?
02:25:10.000 Right.
02:25:10.000 Yeah, September 11th, I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska, and then September 12th, I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
02:25:17.000 Yeah, so Tulsa's up north.
02:25:19.000 I know Toctaw, that's southeastern Oklahoma, so it's a bit away.
02:25:23.000 What is the name of that place?
02:25:24.000 The Bach Center?
02:25:25.000 Is that what it is?
02:25:29.000 In Tulsa?
02:25:31.000 Well, do you think it'll be done by then?
02:25:34.000 Oh yeah.
02:25:35.000 If not, the Chickasaw Nation has an amazing cultural center.
02:25:39.000 So that's in Sulphur, Oklahoma, I believe.
02:25:43.000 They've got a great museum there and really that's a great nation to talk to.
02:25:50.000 I often consider defecting to be Chickasaw.
02:25:54.000 Really?
02:25:54.000 Can you do that?
02:25:56.000 I'd have to be adopted in, I think.
02:25:59.000 The Chickasar are kind of like our little brothers, but they have... 1.00
02:26:05.000 See, our nations were heavily affected by Christianity, and so the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma is very proud of the fact that it's been able to maintain its languages through Christian hymnals and singing Christian music.
02:26:23.000 So my nation really is Is Christian. 0.82
02:26:31.000 But there are many other nations in Oklahoma that I've spent more time with than my own, and that's Chickasaw and Creek and Seminole nations that are also in Oklahoma that still maintain their stomp dances and other traditional pagan rituals.
02:26:51.000 So I tend to...
02:26:54.000 Favor those.
02:26:55.000 Yes.
02:26:55.000 Yeah, makes sense.
02:26:56.000 Yeah.
02:26:59.000 It really is an amazing story.
02:27:01.000 And a sad story, but a fantastic story as well.
02:27:05.000 The story of the Native American culture and life in this country and what it's become.
02:27:11.000 And I don't think it's told enough.
02:27:13.000 I don't think, I mean, I think I'm, you know, I barely scratched the surface of it.
02:27:18.000 You did.
02:27:19.000 I mean, I could keep you here all day.
02:27:20.000 I'm sure.
02:27:21.000 And it's been a very interesting dialogue because part of this is trying to figure out what is it that you want to know and you think that your listeners want to know about this.
02:27:31.000 Because the last thing I want to do is Is to offend your listeners because I really want everyone to come away with learning about Native American history and what's going on in Indian country.
02:27:50.000 Not offended and not with any kind of distaste because I think This is our history that we share together.
02:28:00.000 And I think the only way we're going to change things is if we change the general public and how the general public sees Indian countries.
02:28:11.000 Well, I don't think you have to worry at all about offending.
02:28:12.000 I don't think you offended anybody.
02:28:15.000 I've been being nice.
02:28:16.000 Yeah.
02:28:18.000 Well, listen, my ancestors...
02:28:19.000 Bring me back and I'll be offensive.
02:28:21.000 I would love you to.
02:28:22.000 My ancestors are...
02:28:24.000 I'm third generation, so my ancestors have nothing to do with any of this.
02:28:28.000 We came over from Europe and we don't know anything. 0.85
02:28:31.000 We're like, what the fuck was going on here before we got here? 0.92
02:28:34.000 You know, my ancestors are all Italian and Irish for the most part. 0.97
02:28:38.000 And they had to give up a lot of their culture when they came into this country. 0.99
02:28:42.000 Most of it, yeah.
02:28:43.000 I remember talking.
02:28:46.000 It's interesting, too, because so much has changed.
02:28:50.000 I remember when I was a boy talking to my grandfather.
02:28:53.000 My grandfather would talk to me about what it was like to immigrate here from Italy and how horribly they were treated.
02:28:58.000 And the racism against Italians was just so prevalent and common.
02:29:03.000 And horrific.
02:29:04.000 The things that he would tell me were terrible.
02:29:06.000 And I've never experienced racism against Italians.
02:29:09.000 It doesn't exist anymore.
02:29:10.000 And in just the three generations between my grandparents, my parents, and me, it's gone.
02:29:17.000 It's essentially, being an Italian in this country, I mean, there's some people that have prejudice about all sorts of different cultures, but that's just rare.
02:29:24.000 That's weird.
02:29:25.000 Whereas Mexican prejudice is super common.
02:29:29.000 Right? 0.99
02:29:30.000 Prejudice against Mexicans dealing with all this wall bullshit and what's going on between... 0.99
02:29:36.000 And those are indigenous peoples. 0.99
02:29:38.000 Sure, yeah. 0.98
02:29:39.000 Well, not only that, they owned fucking California up until the 1800s, right? 0.95
02:29:44.000 I mean, that's part of Son of the Morning Star. 0.97
02:29:47.000 Part of that book is talking about Mexicans and US troops fighting over California.
02:29:53.000 That's a big part of it.
02:29:55.000 Does that ignore Native Americans?
02:29:58.000 No.
02:29:58.000 I mean, it kind of does.
02:30:00.000 But I mean, look, in some ways, Mexicans are Native Americans, right?
02:30:06.000 They are.
02:30:07.000 They're absolutely.
02:30:08.000 Yes, they absolutely are.
02:30:09.000 Yeah.
02:30:10.000 So, and not only that, I'm sure they share a lot of DNA. I mean, there's a lot of Mexicans that I'm friends with that look like they could be, you know, complete Native American.
02:30:20.000 Where do you think?
02:30:21.000 Yeah.
02:30:22.000 100%.
02:30:23.000 Yes.
02:30:23.000 Where do you think?
02:30:24.000 Sure.
02:30:24.000 Well, that's why they speak Spanish, right?
02:30:27.000 Spaniards came and met with Mexicans, the original Mexicans, and introduced their language.
02:30:32.000 Well, they weren't Mexicans. 0.91
02:30:33.000 Exactly.
02:30:34.000 They were indigenous peoples.
02:30:35.000 Right.
02:30:35.000 Right, exactly.
02:30:36.000 And just like what Spain did to everyone, they actually trained dogs to rip people apart. 0.96
02:30:50.000 Maybe I'm getting off the subject now, but Catholicism came over here, and they had this thing called a papal bull.
02:31:03.000 And it was basically the Catholic law. 0.90
02:31:06.000 And so these Spaniards would hammer the papal bull into a tree and speak in Spanish to the indigenous world saying, if you don't convert, we will slaughter you. 0.98
02:31:20.000 Right? 1.00
02:31:21.000 That's what, you're a heathen, you must convert or, you know, we're gonna kill you. 1.00
02:31:27.000 And of course nobody knew what the hell they were saying because they didn't speak Spanish. 1.00
02:31:32.000 And they would sic these dogs on them.
02:31:34.000 I mean, there's these horrendous stories that are told by the missionaries that were there with the Spanish, you know, to bring their salvation.
02:31:45.000 And it's just horrendous, some of the accounts of this.
02:31:48.000 And that's just...
02:31:49.000 And recent.
02:31:51.000 That's what's really spooky.
02:31:52.000 Well, that was 1500s.
02:31:53.000 But that's not that long ago.
02:31:54.000 No, it's not.
02:31:55.000 It seems like it is.
02:31:56.000 It's five lifetimes.
02:31:57.000 Five human beings living to 100. Five lives ago, people were doing that.
02:32:03.000 But we still carry this with us.
02:32:05.000 I mean, these stories are still a part of the narrative that we told.
02:32:12.000 And I guess we're still telling it because people haven't listened or these stories haven't been taught.
02:32:21.000 Yeah.
02:32:22.000 They haven't been taught.
02:32:24.000 There's almost too much to teach, and it's very convenient since we, air quotes, are the victors.
02:32:31.000 So we kind of can rewrite history, or at least make that part of history not important.
02:32:38.000 You know, I had a bit that I did in my act about presidents, about electing presidents, and I was like, you just got to realize the United States was founded in 1776 and that people lived to be 100, and that's three people ago.
02:32:51.000 Like, we literally just got here.
02:32:53.000 We just got here, and now in the course of three people's lives, we have skyscrapers and planes and pollution, and we're sucking all the fish out of the ocean, and we've wiped out most of the history of the indigenous people. 1.00
02:33:06.000 Mm-hmm.
02:33:07.000 And it's crazy.
02:33:09.000 I mean, it really is a very strange fact that is so often overlooked.
02:33:15.000 On a day-to-day basis, how often do we discuss Native American history?
02:33:19.000 How often do we discuss the battles that took place, the lives that were lost, the people that died from disease?
02:33:27.000 The Trail of Tears.
02:33:28.000 How often is that discussed in this country?
02:33:30.000 I think there's five or six million of us that talk about it every day, but that's indigenous people.
02:33:38.000 And thank God you do.
02:33:40.000 Yeah, so we're keeping that alive.
02:33:43.000 And like I said, there's a lot of...
02:33:46.000 There's not many of us, comparatively, but we're out there and we're all doing double time to work to push this out into the public narrative and it's been really, really hard.
02:33:59.000 Well, I really appreciate your efforts and I really appreciate you humoring me and coming here and teaching us and educating me about what's, you know, how you feel about things and the stories.
02:34:11.000 That you came here to tell.
02:34:13.000 And I think what you're doing is very, very important.
02:34:16.000 I'm very happy that you're out there.
02:34:17.000 I'm happy that you took the time in this calamity and chaos and pandemic to risk your health and come and make this trip.
02:34:24.000 Yeah, I'm going to be isolated when I get home.
02:34:27.000 My family's putting me in the basement for two weeks.
02:34:30.000 Jamie doesn't have the cooties, he told me.
02:34:32.000 He's fine.
02:34:33.000 I'm clean.
02:34:33.000 It's a whistle, so you're good.
02:34:35.000 I eat healthy.
02:34:36.000 Is there anything else we could talk about before you leave?
02:34:40.000 We can talk about tons of stuff, but I think what I need to tell you is that the Association on American Indian Affairs has been around for a long time, and we are rebuilding our capacity to look into the next hundred years and how we want to move forward.
02:35:00.000 I would love to have input from your listeners about what they think they need in it.
02:35:05.000 Or what their questions are about Indian Country.
02:35:08.000 Don't give out an email.
02:35:09.000 No, I'm not.
02:35:10.000 It'll be flooded with horrible pictures.
02:35:11.000 We have a website.
02:35:13.000 Oh, God.
02:35:14.000 Only good, enlightened people can reach out.
02:35:18.000 That's a wonderful theory.
02:35:20.000 There's so much we can do together and people who are interested in getting to know more about what's going on in Indian Country or getting involved and helping out.
02:35:31.000 Which help people where they can go.
02:35:34.000 Indian-affairs.org Indian-affairs.org Okay.
02:35:39.000 We will send people to there.
02:35:40.000 And thank you so much, Shannon.
02:35:42.000 Thank you very much for being here.
02:35:43.000 I really appreciate it.
02:35:44.000 Bye, everybody.
02:35:45.000 Stay safe, or not.
02:35:46.000 Or stay happy.
02:35:48.000 Do what you gotta do.