The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1510 - George Knapp & Jeremy Corbell

00:00:00.000 First of all, George, pleasure to meet you.

00:00:03.000 Joe, great to talk to you.

00:00:04.000 Great to see you in person.

00:00:05.000 Thank you.

00:00:05.000 Great to see you, too.

00:00:07.000 And Jeremy, good to see you again, my friend.

00:00:08.000 Hey, Joe, good to see you, man.

00:00:09.000 We're doing this often.

00:00:11.000 This is becoming a thing.

00:00:13.000 George, I think that you're probably one of the most important figures when it comes to journalism and UFOs.

00:00:20.000 And when you broke the Bob Lazar story, was that 89?

00:00:24.000 When was that?

00:00:25.000 1989. 1989. 1989, I remember reading about it, I remember hearing about it, I remember watching clips on television and watching countless Bob Lazar interviews.

00:00:38.000 It all came out of you.

00:00:39.000 I mean, did you think at that time, what was your thoughts about UFOs before you had met Bob Lazar and how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story?

00:00:50.000 It changed quite a bit.

00:00:51.000 I had not really given it much thought at all.

00:00:53.000 You know, it's probably the same level of curiosity as most people.

00:00:56.000 You go about your life, you pay your bills, you go to work, you love your family, and it's always out there somewhere.

00:01:02.000 Hey, I wonder what the deal is on that.

00:01:04.000 But had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987. Into the studio comes a guy named John Lear.

00:01:12.000 And I had heard sort of a little bit about him.

00:01:15.000 His family was famous.

00:01:16.000 His dad developed the Learjet, the 8-track tape.

00:01:19.000 John had run for the State Senate, and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, KLAS-TV, because he had helped us break a really big story.

00:01:28.000 And the story was the stealth fighter, the F-117.

00:01:31.000 He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor, about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in Tonopah in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but Ned broke that story.

00:01:45.000 It went national.

00:01:46.000 So John Lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be UFO documents.

00:01:50.000 He plops them on Ned's desk and says, Ned, this is going to be the next biggest story, the biggest story in history.

00:01:56.000 It's a UFO cover-up.

00:01:57.000 Aliens are here.

00:01:59.000 Technology's been recovered.

00:02:00.000 Ned takes a look at it and says, I'm not doing this story.

00:02:04.000 If it was true, I'd already know about it.

00:02:07.000 This is crazy.

00:02:08.000 I'm eavesdropping, as I tend to do.

00:02:11.000 I'm a curious person.

00:02:12.000 So as he's going out, I said, Lear, let me take a look at this material.

00:02:16.000 And I looked at it and I thought, well, this is kind of interesting.

00:02:18.000 At the time, I was producing and hosting this little public affairs show, 30-minute interview show.

00:02:23.000 It would air a Sunday morning at 6 o'clock.

00:02:25.000 Nobody watches it.

00:02:26.000 It would be interviewing a city councilman, a county commissioner.

00:02:30.000 What the heck?

00:02:31.000 I'll put Lear on there.

00:02:32.000 And I let him go.

00:02:33.000 And he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and recovered technology and a giant cover-up.

00:02:40.000 Some of the information sounded outrageous.

00:02:43.000 Some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out.

00:02:46.000 Suddenly, the phone starts ringing off the hook.

00:02:48.000 I'm getting calls about people.

00:02:50.000 Who was that guy?

00:02:51.000 What was the deal on that UFO stuff?

00:02:52.000 Is it real?

00:02:53.000 I had him on again.

00:02:54.000 Six months later, the response was bigger.

00:02:57.000 I had him on a third time with a guy named Bill Cooper.

00:03:00.000 I regret that.

00:03:01.000 And he told him an even more elaborate conspiracy.

00:03:05.000 He's the Behold the Pale Horse guy? 0.96

00:03:06.000 Yes. 0.99

00:03:06.000 Yeah, I read that book and halfway through I was like, what in the fuck is this? 0.99

00:03:10.000 Yeah, he tied in the JFK assassination. 0.98

00:03:13.000 Bases on the moon, aliens are there right now.

00:03:16.000 He had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy, and he's going to tell the world about it, then he's going to go away.

00:03:24.000 Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger, and anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me.

00:03:32.000 So we do this third show with Lear, and he hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out at Area 51 and knows something about alien technology.

00:03:40.000 That guy turns out to be Bob Lazar, but Lear didn't give me the name at that time.

00:03:46.000 I am anchoring the 5 o'clock news on KLAS, and we have a nightly or evening interview segment, five-minute segment, live interview.

00:03:56.000 Our guest doesn't show up, and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole, and I thought about Lear.

00:04:02.000 So I called him up, not knowing what had been going on in Lazar's life or Lear's life, and I said, hey, is that UFO guy you told me about, is he around?

00:04:09.000 Would he do an interview?

00:04:10.000 Yeah.

00:04:11.000 Just turned out that Bob had been through the ringer and a lot of stuff going on in his life.

00:04:15.000 He felt threatened and he said yes.

00:04:17.000 We had to black out his face.

00:04:18.000 We do this interview and he spills the basics of the story.

00:04:21.000 I worked out there at a place called S4. I saw nine flying saucers in an underground base.

00:04:27.000 This is technology that came from somewhere else.

00:04:29.000 I'm in fear for my life.

00:04:31.000 Holy cow, the phones start ringing off the hook.

00:04:34.000 My news director comes rushing in, the station manager.

00:04:36.000 Is that for real?

00:04:37.000 What's the deal on that?

00:04:38.000 And we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand.

00:04:43.000 We arranged to go meet Bob Lazar, my news director Bob Stolow and I, that following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job. 0.91

00:04:53.000 We spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking, holy shit, what if this is true? 0.73

00:04:59.000 You know, this is really risky for us as journalists. 0.97

00:05:03.000 It's risky for our personal reputations.

00:05:05.000 If it blows up in our faces and we do this story, and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is, KLAS is a jewel.

00:05:13.000 It's always been a leader in Las Vegas, one of the best TV news operations in the country.

00:05:19.000 We're putting a lot on the line.

00:05:20.000 Well, look, we decide, let's take our time.

00:05:23.000 Let's look into this guy's story.

00:05:25.000 And then in order to understand Lazar, we'd have to look at The bigger picture of UFOs.

00:05:30.000 So I started a cram course on ufology and I read everything and I spent eight months like cramming for a final exam that never happened.

00:05:38.000 I read everything.

00:05:39.000 I interviewed people.

00:05:40.000 That same year MUFON had its international symposium in Las Vegas and all the world's UFO people came right to me. 0.67

00:05:48.000 I got to interview them, traveled around, went to Los Alamos.

00:05:51.000 Lazar took us into the lab.

00:05:53.000 We took cameras in there.

00:05:55.000 He walked us around.

00:05:56.000 Waving to people.

00:05:58.000 We didn't even have to stop for security.

00:06:00.000 Took us into the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow.

00:06:05.000 He knew his way around.

00:06:07.000 We were allowed to take a camera in there.

00:06:09.000 We put those stories together, put them on the air in November, and man, it just went through the roof.

00:06:16.000 Every night of this nine-part series, the audience got bigger, phones ringing off the hook, people calling, giving us information.

00:06:24.000 Suddenly, it's on something called Paranet, which was sort of a precursor to the internet.

00:06:28.000 And it was huge.

00:06:30.000 And it changed my life, for sure.

00:06:32.000 I had no idea that there were so many people out there interested in the topic.

00:06:37.000 And I was hooked.

00:06:38.000 And I really got hooked on Lazar, not only because his story, personally, you know, I was interested in him.

00:06:45.000 We became friends.

00:06:46.000 I saw what happened to him after that live interview and in the seven and a half months before we went and I revealed his identity.

00:06:55.000 People were really messing with him.

00:06:57.000 I mean, you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then, breaking into his house, leaving the windows open, messing with things in his home, breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head.

00:07:11.000 And you think that was the government that was doing that?

00:07:12.000 Yeah, I do.

00:07:13.000 I think so.

00:07:13.000 And then, so I had put out a call to people, hey, I want other people to come forward.

00:07:18.000 This was before his identity was revealed.

00:07:20.000 We should explain this.

00:07:21.000 I am actively seeking information from the public.

00:07:24.000 If you ever worked at Area 51 or S4, you know anything about this, you're at Nellis Air Force Base, reach out to me.

00:07:30.000 So I started getting calls, and six people right in a row...

00:07:35.000 We're good to go.

00:08:06.000 I think?

00:08:29.000 We're good to go.

00:08:42.000 In suit.

00:08:43.000 They tell her, look, you are still subject to your security clearance.

00:08:47.000 I hope you know that.

00:08:48.000 And then they said, we know you travel to L.A. to see your daughter and we know she comes here.

00:08:53.000 It's a big desert out there.

00:08:55.000 It'd be terrible if something happened to either one of you.

00:08:57.000 This lady is scared shitless. 1.00

00:08:59.000 She didn't make that stuff up.

00:09:00.000 So six people who had offered to give me information on the phone, one right after another, get visited.

00:09:05.000 And it made me mad.

00:09:07.000 It also made me mad that dealing with, you know, trying to fill in pieces of Bob Lazar's life.

00:09:12.000 I know there's some gaping holes.

00:09:14.000 I know it better than anybody.

00:09:15.000 I've had to deal with it for 31 years.

00:09:18.000 But I always thought if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects in a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like S4 as somebody who thinks outside the box.

00:09:33.000 Despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help them crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves.

00:09:40.000 So I focused on Los Alamos.

00:09:43.000 I knew he had been there.

00:09:44.000 I talked to people who remembered him from being there, but the lab kept telling me no, no record of him.

00:09:49.000 He's never here.

00:09:50.000 And then I showed him, well, look, I've got the Los Alamos newspaper.

00:09:53.000 It's a small town paper.

00:09:55.000 There it is on the front page, a front page story.

00:09:58.000 Bob Lazar, physicist, Mason facility, Los Alamos lab.

00:10:01.000 It's a story about his jet car.

00:10:04.000 No, still have no records of him.

00:10:06.000 And then I found his name in the phone book from the era when he was there.

00:10:09.000 He's in the lab phone book.

00:10:11.000 He had been hired by a company called Kirkmeyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that.

00:10:19.000 So, great.

00:10:20.000 I'll reach out to Kirkmeyer.

00:10:21.000 They said, yeah, we hired him.

00:10:22.000 Yeah, we've got records.

00:10:23.000 Can I get it?

00:10:24.000 Can I get his employment records that would show where he went to school, whatever information you guys had?

00:10:29.000 Yes.

00:10:31.000 A couple weeks go by, nothing.

00:10:33.000 A couple more weeks go by, I call him again.

00:10:35.000 I start writing him.

00:10:36.000 I've got a stack of letters that thick.

00:10:38.000 It went on for two and a half years.

00:10:40.000 And finally, by the end of it, they said he was never here.

00:10:42.000 We don't have any records.

00:10:44.000 That pissed me off.

00:10:45.000 It made me mad, and I think that that is really what got me hooked in the story, is that I was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that.

00:10:54.000 We should explain the Los Alamos thing, because the Los Alamos thing coincided with him doing work at MIT, right?

00:11:01.000 Is that correct?

00:11:02.000 That's how he's explained it to me.

00:11:04.000 And the way he explained it to me, I don't think I'm at liberty to say what the project was, because the project, the way he was describing it, Is essentially internationally illegal, like what they were working on.

00:11:18.000 And that's one of the reasons why he was saying, he explained what the project was.

00:11:23.000 It sounded very feasible, also very evil.

00:11:26.000 And then it was basically a weapon.

00:11:29.000 And then he said that this is the reason why there was no actual record of him studying at MIT. It wasn't important that he got a degree.

00:11:38.000 It was important that he understand The technical specifications of what they were attempting to accomplish.

00:11:45.000 That's my understanding as well.

00:11:47.000 And it's always been the most problematic part of his background.

00:11:50.000 And it's where a lot of people in the Bob Lazar story, that's where they stop.

00:11:54.000 But the thing is, when you listen to him talk and when he describes things, it's very clear he's educated.

00:12:00.000 Oh, he's a brilliant guy.

00:12:02.000 But here's – I had always told him and I've – you know, Bob, you're my friend.

00:12:06.000 I want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down – you know, in those days you go to a college like MIT or Caltech and get a degree.

00:12:15.000 You've got to take classes in something other than science.

00:12:17.000 Yeah.

00:12:18.000 I could not imagine Bob Lazar taking an English lit class to save his life.

00:12:22.000 But he is a brilliant guy.

00:12:23.000 I'll give you an example.

00:12:25.000 In April, COVID thing is raging.

00:12:28.000 My wife and I are staying at home.

00:12:30.000 We're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort.

00:12:33.000 I'm a little worried.

00:12:34.000 They didn't know about contact, whether you can get it off of cardboard boxes or whatever.

00:12:38.000 And I mentioned to Bob in a phone conversation, I'm thinking about buying one of these UV screener systems.

00:12:44.000 He goes, wait a second.

00:12:46.000 Don't buy one.

00:12:47.000 I think I've got the parts that I can make you want in my garage.

00:12:50.000 And a week later, it arrives.

00:12:52.000 He's got it in his garage.

00:12:54.000 Handmade.

00:12:55.000 This big scanner with these UV things that works.

00:12:58.000 He just whipped it up in his garage.

00:12:59.000 I'll remind you.

00:13:00.000 You got the scanner.

00:13:02.000 I got a laser gun.

00:13:04.000 You got a laser gun?

00:13:05.000 I did, man.

00:13:05.000 It is super powerful.

00:13:07.000 So it's like a handheld toy that he retrofitted with a super power. 0.99

00:13:10.000 So I'm like lighting shit on fire in my house. 0.95

00:13:12.000 So it looks like a handheld. 0.98

00:13:13.000 Handheld toy, but it's actually a real laser?

00:13:16.000 It's a toy with full noise, but he put a diode in there, and it's super powerful. 0.99

00:13:20.000 It can light shit on fire. 1.00

00:13:22.000 My wife hates that shit. 1.00

00:13:23.000 So I got the laser gun. 1.00

00:13:24.000 You also got the flamethrower, though.

00:13:26.000 Lazar made a flamethrower.

00:13:27.000 This is before your buddy Elon made flamethrowers.

00:13:29.000 No comment on that.

00:13:30.000 It's a massive flamethrower.

00:13:32.000 He made one.

00:13:32.000 He made a flamethrower.

00:13:33.000 Massive.

00:13:33.000 Yeah, he's obviously a very intelligent man.

00:13:36.000 When you listen to him talk, there's no bullshitting going on.

00:13:40.000 When he talks about undeniable, concrete things when it comes to science, when it comes to elements, when it comes to propulsion systems, he clearly knows what he's talking about.

00:13:51.000 And the really confusing thing For people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years.

00:14:00.000 It really is the same story.

00:14:01.000 And that's really hard to do.

00:14:03.000 Even if you tell a true story, 31 years later, you get it screwed up a little bit.

00:14:08.000 It's hard.

00:14:08.000 Like, when you're calling on 30...

00:14:10.000 Like, if I had to remember things from 31 years ago, that's like...

00:14:14.000 I'm one year in a stand-up comedy, 31 years ago.

00:14:16.000 I don't remember it.

00:14:18.000 I barely...

00:14:19.000 I'm going to tell you, like, oh, yeah, it was a Sunday night, and then my friend Greg would go, actually, it was Wednesday. 0.98

00:14:24.000 I go, fuck, yeah, you're right, it was Wednesday. 0.93

00:14:25.000 Who was the host? 0.99

00:14:27.000 You know, we'll have...

00:14:27.000 I don't know.

00:14:28.000 It's a blurry slideshow, but Bob has been remarkably consistent.

00:14:34.000 The only thing that he's vacillated on, we varied a little bit, is whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien, like a small figure,

00:14:50.000 like whether or not they were trying to determine how large...

00:14:53.000 A creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts.

00:14:55.000 Because the crafts were very small in terms of like for a human being.

00:15:01.000 It was more like something that was built for a child.

00:15:04.000 And he walked by a window and looked inside.

00:15:07.000 And in some of the earlier discussions of it, he believed that he might have seen an alien.

00:15:12.000 But he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by, saw something.

00:15:18.000 And again, you know how the brain works in memory.

00:15:21.000 You could...

00:15:22.000 You can really plant false memories.

00:15:24.000 Everybody wants to pretend their memory is so good.

00:15:26.000 Memories are terrible.

00:15:27.000 Well, Bob admitted from the beginning.

00:15:29.000 Remember, the first interview we did, I think it was June of 89. So it was a little after we did that live interview, but months before we went with his ID. And that was really, we recorded it in case something happened to him.

00:15:42.000 He was afraid he was going to be killed.

00:15:43.000 There were a lot of really weird things going on.

00:15:46.000 And I was worried about it too.

00:15:47.000 I wanted to get it on the record in case suddenly he disappeared.

00:15:50.000 So we recorded this long interview and always he downplays stuff like that.

00:15:55.000 That's an example.

00:15:56.000 I saw something that was that size.

00:15:59.000 I don't believe it was an alien.

00:16:00.000 It was just a glimpse of me where they're messing with my head.

00:16:02.000 He also admits that they did mess with his head.

00:16:06.000 That he had to...

00:16:07.000 They underwent some kind of hypnosis that they made him drink this weird green liquid?

00:16:12.000 Probably LSD. Well, maybe.

00:16:15.000 They said it was an allergy test.

00:16:17.000 But yeah, I mean, you know, to your point, just real quick is after 30 years, it's not that he changed his story.

00:16:23.000 He's changed.

00:16:24.000 So when I was interviewing him, you know, he cracked the book back open with me.

00:16:28.000 It was like he was saying, the science and technology is what I know.

00:16:32.000 I had my hands on that.

00:16:33.000 I can't attest to what I read in the documents. 0.97

00:16:35.000 Yeah, I saw something for a brief millisecond through a fucking window, but I don't know what that was. 0.85

00:16:40.000 So people have taken what he said and exaggerated it. 0.96

00:16:43.000 Bob has always been skeptical of the things he didn't have his hands on, and I admire that.

00:16:48.000 And he's changed as a human.

00:16:49.000 As a human, he's matured.

00:16:51.000 So now he's saying, okay, let me look at it rationally.

00:16:54.000 I don't know what I saw through that window.

00:16:55.000 And I appreciate that.

00:16:57.000 He's so straight.

00:16:58.000 Yeah, he's very straight.

00:17:01.000 Various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward.

00:17:04.000 There are people who believe he just made it up.

00:17:06.000 He was trying to make money or he wanted attention.

00:17:08.000 There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there.

00:17:14.000 Or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive.

00:17:18.000 Bob would admit that he had no business being there, that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things.

00:17:26.000 Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not been able to duplicate.

00:17:36.000 We should explain that a little bit.

00:17:37.000 The Los Alamos lab story was him.

00:17:39.000 He put a jet engine on a Honda.

00:17:42.000 Right.

00:17:42.000 And it was a functional jet car that he built himself.

00:17:46.000 So he was a legitimate propulsion expert and, again, like a super science nerd.

00:17:51.000 Like, where he got his education is what's weird, right?

00:17:54.000 I finally got an interview with the guy that wrote that article two weeks ago.

00:17:58.000 So the guy, Terry English.

00:18:00.000 Right.

00:18:01.000 Finally, after all this time, he called me back three years late.

00:18:04.000 You know what I mean?

00:18:04.000 Put him in the movie.

00:18:06.000 And I said, look, here's the point.

00:18:07.000 You said Bob Lazar was a physicist at Los Alamos.

00:18:11.000 So how did you base that?

00:18:12.000 You're writing a paper.

00:18:13.000 And he goes, yeah.

00:18:14.000 And it got picked up by AP News.

00:18:16.000 He goes, if I had misrepresented that he was a physicist at Los Alamos, I would have been blackballed by everybody at Los Alamos.

00:18:23.000 They take that very seriously.

00:18:25.000 He was a physicist.

00:18:26.000 I reported it.

00:18:27.000 AP News picked it up.

00:18:28.000 They repeated it.

00:18:29.000 Not word one from anybody saying he wasn't a physicist at Los Alamos.

00:18:33.000 It's little things like that that – nothing Bob has ever said.

00:18:37.000 Have I found out?

00:18:38.000 Yeah.

00:18:39.000 This is a real hot rod.

00:18:40.000 And he did the story because the car was badass.

00:18:43.000 When he fired it up, it – But he has a history of this.

00:18:46.000 He also made a hydrogen-powered Corvette later on.

00:18:49.000 Yeah, he's a wizard.

00:18:51.000 He's a very smart guy.

00:18:52.000 You know, he will admit to you that maybe he was picked for the job.

00:18:56.000 They figured, all right, in case he blabs, we can discredit this guy like that. 1.00

00:19:01.000 When we're done with him, there's things in his background.

00:19:04.000 He likes to blow things up.

00:19:05.000 He likes explosives.

00:19:06.000 He had a Pirate flag on his house at the time that I first met him.

00:19:11.000 He liked machine guns.

00:19:13.000 He had an illegal firework show that would go out in the desert every year that became a world-class event.

00:19:19.000 He got into some legal trouble after he'd worked out there.

00:19:23.000 So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him.

00:19:26.000 The people who still maintain that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there, whoever came up with that idea should be fired, because as a result of Bob coming forward with that story, Area 51 is now known all over the world.

00:19:41.000 I'm sorry, but the Bob Lazar version of the tale is the one that prevailed.

00:19:47.000 It's known everywhere.

00:19:47.000 It's been in movies and books and TV shows.

00:19:50.000 It's launched a thousand different products like the hat.

00:19:55.000 Las Vegas 51s.

00:19:57.000 Our AAA baseball team became the 51s because of the Lazar story.

00:20:01.000 The E.T. Highway is created and christened by our governor.

00:20:06.000 You know, that story, that version that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not.

00:20:12.000 And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there.

00:20:21.000 Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there.

00:20:29.000 Every major news organization in the world, after giving me nothing but grief, has beaten a path to Area 51's door.

00:20:36.000 All of them, they've all done it.

00:20:38.000 And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into.

00:20:49.000 Yeah, and that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response. 0.99

00:20:56.000 There were so many people that I talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit. 0.98

00:21:01.000 They call me up and go, hey man, I'm starting to believe this is real. 0.99

00:21:05.000 And I'm like, you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the Commander Fravor interview where he talks about the Tic Tac UFO. I think?

00:21:32.000 Quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune. 0.99

00:21:35.000 Friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit have done a 180 and they're like, fuck, is this real? 0.97

00:21:40.000 And then the New York Times story came out, of course, and the New York Times is showing all these images of these UFOs and these things that they can't explain at all. 0.99

00:21:50.000 Exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can't explain.

00:21:58.000 They move the same way.

00:22:00.000 And there's legitimate people, legitimate scientists now that are starting to take this into consideration and say, okay, if this is from Earth, Then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible.

00:22:16.000 How did they do that?

00:22:17.000 Is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of right when they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have them create this stuff?

00:22:26.000 Are we, in fact, encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology?

00:22:35.000 But it's not outside the realm of possibility.

00:22:37.000 We're here.

00:22:38.000 We're here sending videos through our phones to each other.

00:22:42.000 We're talking to people.

00:22:44.000 It's being relayed through the sky.

00:22:47.000 We're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly.

00:22:54.000 From these servers, I mean, just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947. From 1947 to 2020, in terms of the universe, is not even a half of a blink of an eye.

00:23:10.000 And then, boom, things have changed so radically.

00:23:12.000 It's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us.

00:23:19.000 Yes, so that's one of the big things.

00:23:21.000 Getting Commander Fravor in that room with Bob was so cool because Bob talks to whoever he's talking with.

00:23:26.000 He helps you understand what he's saying.

00:23:28.000 He can go into high specified detail on stuff, but typically he's just talking to whoever's there.

00:23:33.000 When I got him in front of Commander Fravor, all of us and Matt, we were all in the room.

00:23:37.000 It was amazing because Commander Fravor saw it too.

00:23:41.000 He saw something like Bob saw it.

00:23:43.000 And the way that the craft, the tic-tac moved, it cannot be something that we have because it was clearly gravitationally propelled.

00:23:52.000 This is something they talk about.

00:23:53.000 Commander Fravor saw it bouncing like a ping pong ball on the inside of a glass.

00:23:58.000 The inertia, being able to go bump, bump, bump.

00:24:00.000 And the coolest thing Bob said was, well, Commander Fravor, Dave...

00:24:04.000 It could have been a subject to a time distortion.

00:24:08.000 So you're seeing it one way.

00:24:10.000 And they started talking about gravity amplification.

00:24:12.000 It was just so cool to see them talk without an audience. 0.99

00:24:15.000 What the fuck did Commander Fravor see? 0.98

00:24:18.000 And Bob was, it's cool that when he can be calm and chill like that and just talk to another human. 0.99

00:24:23.000 And what's crazy is what Commander Fravor is describing is what Bob was describing the propulsion systems of 1989 that they were working on.

00:24:31.000 Straight up.

00:24:32.000 It's the exact same thing, even the way it turns sideways to move off.

00:24:37.000 That's exactly how he's describing it.

00:24:39.000 Which is crazy!

00:24:40.000 We have this video and everybody says, oh, it's this, it's that, it's another plane, an FAA team.

00:24:46.000 Dude, I've talked with a dude at Boeing now who serviced these pods that it was caught on, the gimbal.

00:24:53.000 That thing is self-rotating.

00:24:55.000 It is a saucer-shaped thing that is rotating mechanically against the wind.

00:25:01.000 They all know that this has to be a gravity-propelled program.

00:25:05.000 We understand the science that it takes to do it.

00:25:08.000 We can't replicate it with our material sciences, our best information at this time.

00:25:18.000 We can't replicate this technology, but we do understand how it works, fundamentally.

00:25:23.000 Fundamentally, we just don't have the power to actually make it.

00:25:25.000 The material science even, just the actual physical material science, the materials it's made out of, and that's what's been in the news now, metamaterials, that there are materials from craft that we have.

00:25:37.000 George will talk about that, but Lazar is parallel with what we're seeing today.

00:25:43.000 Yeah, and what's also really bonkers is in 89 he was talking about element 115. It wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. So in 1989 he was talking about, this is science fiction, he's making things up.

00:25:56.000 In 2013 they actually were able to create, for a brief moment, an element 115, which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps the propulsion system for this craft.

00:26:10.000 It was always theorized, of course, element 115, but fabricating it was an achievement.

00:26:16.000 But yeah, if you're talking about being a winner every time history writes itself, Bob, it's insane.

00:26:22.000 He's batting 100%.

00:26:23.000 100%.

00:26:24.000 He knew there was a place called S-4.

00:26:26.000 There had been no articles about that, no mention.

00:26:29.000 I looked for it.

00:26:30.000 I called Nellis Air Force Base and asked him, do you have a place called S-4 anywhere on the range?

00:26:35.000 Yeah.

00:26:36.000 In fact, we have more than one.

00:26:38.000 So can you tell me where they are?

00:26:39.000 No.

00:26:40.000 Can you tell me what goes on there?

00:26:41.000 No.

00:26:41.000 Well, there was a facility at Papoose.

00:26:44.000 I think it was built into the side of the mountain, and you can see the dirt road on the old satellite photos.

00:26:50.000 Why were people going down there?

00:26:52.000 And then, of course, the video.

00:26:53.000 He goes out there with his friends when he thinks he's going to be killed or he's going to disappear three weeks in a row.

00:26:59.000 You've talked about it on this program.

00:27:00.000 Yeah.

00:27:01.000 And they videotaped it, and all the witnesses who were there have verified it, and it was not over Area 51. It was over Papoose, which officially has no facility.

00:27:10.000 Nothing has ever been there.

00:27:11.000 Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise, and it's been proven over the years.

00:27:16.000 He didn't know stuff that was disproven. 0.98

00:27:18.000 He didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit like the William Cooper book, right? 0.98

00:27:25.000 There's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about, whether William Cooper was just schizophrenic, whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things so you could discount the truth. 0.97

00:27:36.000 I mean, that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information is going to get leaked out.

00:27:43.000 And they want to somehow or another discredit it, they'll connect it to really loony stuff that is absolutely not true.

00:27:48.000 And they'll say, where'd you get that information?

00:27:50.000 Oh, I got it from Behold the Pale Horse.

00:27:52.000 Oh, Christ.

00:27:53.000 Did you read all the stuff in that book?

00:27:55.000 Right?

00:27:55.000 I mean, so there's that thought.

00:27:57.000 But there's none of that with Bob.

00:27:59.000 With Bob, everything that he talked, it's so eerie.

00:28:02.000 Every time you turn over a stone, I think I'm going to find...

00:28:05.000 At first, that's how George and I met.

00:28:06.000 I thought I was going to see these guys cooked it up.

00:28:09.000 That was my first entry point in 2012. I thought they cooked it up.

00:28:14.000 Every stone you turn over.

00:28:15.000 To be clear what George just said, Bob always said there's a place called Site 4. That was never mentioned anywhere at Papoose.

00:28:21.000 He verified it in 1989 with head of public relations, who was a homie of his at Area 51. We then call 30 years later and they give us the... 1.00

00:28:30.000 Funniest fucking answer, trying to not talk about Sight Force. 0.98

00:28:34.000 So he confirmed it. 1.00

00:28:35.000 Every time he turned over a stone man, every time, Bob's proven right.

00:28:39.000 And it's annoying.

00:28:41.000 What was the experiment that he did with Element 115 that you guys videotaped?

00:28:47.000 Was that available online?

00:28:49.000 Could someone watch that?

00:28:50.000 No.

00:28:51.000 So it was called a cloud chamber test.

00:28:53.000 So he had this stuff.

00:28:55.000 I know people don't believe that it exists, and he never had any of it.

00:29:00.000 They're welcome to believe it.

00:29:01.000 But he had a piece of it.

00:29:03.000 How big was the piece?

00:29:05.000 The only time I ever saw it, it was in his lead shield round disc.

00:29:09.000 And he had it for a while.

00:29:11.000 It was in an office.

00:29:12.000 Was it because it's radioactive?

00:29:13.000 I think it's stable.

00:29:14.000 I don't think it's radioactive.

00:29:15.000 That's how it was shipped to him.

00:29:16.000 So it's in a lead disc.

00:29:18.000 It was to protect it from bombardment because it will become unstable very quickly.

00:29:21.000 That's how he says they used it in the craft.

00:29:23.000 So yeah, he had it in a puck.

00:29:25.000 Like a hockey puck looking?

00:29:27.000 Yeah, like a metal sandwich.

00:29:29.000 And it's lead.

00:29:30.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:31.000 So it's in this thing.

00:29:32.000 Yeah.

00:29:32.000 And I showed it.

00:29:33.000 And I had it in the background in one of our stories, just sort of an inside joke.

00:29:37.000 It's sitting in there.

00:29:38.000 But Bob used to keep it in front of a particle accelerator that he had built at his home.

00:29:42.000 You know, every non-scientist builds a particle accelerator in their home.

00:29:47.000 And he had it there when he thought he was going to be killed.

00:29:50.000 It was sort of a defense mechanism for him.

00:29:52.000 He had it right in front.

00:29:53.000 All he had to do is flip a switch.

00:29:55.000 And he thought it could explode.

00:29:58.000 Yeah.

00:29:58.000 I think he meant to scare people from coming in and trying to take him out.

00:30:03.000 But this cloud chamber test was the only time I think he ever took it out of this thing.

00:30:07.000 And I got there right as the experiment ended where they had this little chamber and it bent light.

00:30:14.000 Now, they showed me the video.

00:30:16.000 I don't pretend to be a scientist.

00:30:17.000 I don't try to be an expert on things I really don't know.

00:30:21.000 But it looked to me like light was bending in this experiment, which it shouldn't be able to do.

00:30:25.000 It's like a laser that bent.

00:30:26.000 I've seen some of this.

00:30:28.000 Jeremy has a little piece of it.

00:30:29.000 So I was able to find, man, this was a search.

00:30:30.000 So George, from day one, when I... Do you have it right now?

00:30:34.000 That video?

00:30:35.000 On me.

00:30:35.000 It's in my movie.

00:30:37.000 Right.

00:30:37.000 Okay.

00:30:38.000 But basically what happened is it's so annoying.

00:30:41.000 I'm like, you guys have footage of this.

00:30:43.000 Because Bob never filmed this to put out to the public.

00:30:45.000 It was to show his friends, like taking them to the test site, show them the saucers. 0.99

00:30:49.000 It was so his friends didn't think he was fucking crazy. 0.98

00:30:51.000 So they film it, and lo and behold, they give it to George. 0.98

00:30:55.000 It's in a brown case.

00:30:56.000 It's somewhere in his archives. 0.99

00:30:58.000 I've sorted through his whole damn house, man. 0.99

00:31:00.000 I can't find this tape. 0.99

00:31:01.000 So then I asked Bob, is there anywhere this could be anywhere else?

00:31:05.000 This is important footage, Bob.

00:31:07.000 And I find it sandwiched between two Golden Girls episodes on some tape he kind of recorded over.

00:31:12.000 So I got out to the public, what, 17 or 30 seconds of this cool-down phase of the test.

00:31:18.000 Is that online anywhere?

00:31:20.000 It's in my film.

00:31:21.000 I can put it online.

00:31:22.000 Right.

00:31:22.000 But is it online?

00:31:23.000 Has anybody taken that?

00:31:24.000 No, no, no.

00:31:24.000 I got it.

00:31:24.000 I found it in these old tapes.

00:31:26.000 They couldn't find it.

00:31:26.000 But you know how people take little things from movies and sometimes put it online.

00:31:29.000 Oh, maybe somebody has.

00:31:31.000 Could be.

00:31:31.000 I'll post it, man.

00:31:32.000 It's cool.

00:31:33.000 It's cool.

00:31:34.000 But Bob says he's so unimpressed with everything.

00:31:36.000 He's like, Jeremy, that doesn't show the cool part of the test.

00:31:39.000 It's just the cool-down period.

00:31:41.000 And I'm like, well, it shows that you filmed this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115. So what I have in the film, it's not definitive proof, but it shows that they weren't lying, that they filmed it.

00:31:53.000 George was there.

00:31:55.000 Bob would just assume that that goes away, that people not talk about it.

00:31:58.000 Is this it?

00:31:59.000 That's it.

00:32:01.000 Jamie's the best.

00:32:02.000 Jamie.

00:32:03.000 Wow.

00:32:03.000 So what's happening here?

00:32:04.000 Explain. 0.98

00:32:05.000 This looks like he's growing a plant or some shit. 0.98

00:32:07.000 Right. 0.98

00:32:07.000 So this is why Bob was so unimpressed with what I found sandwiched in his personal home videos. 0.98

00:32:12.000 That's the disc.

00:32:12.000 That's the top of the disc with a little cross on top.

00:32:15.000 Yeah.

00:32:16.000 So he was trying to show his friends.

00:32:17.000 Like today if you had a laser pointer.

00:32:19.000 So here's the cloud.

00:32:21.000 You can look at it over there, Jeremy, if you don't want to turn around.

00:32:23.000 Oh, got it.

00:32:26.000 So if Bob had a laser pointer back then, with the principles of the 115, which he did get out and he does not- Where's the 115 in this image?

00:32:33.000 Inside of the- In that disc.

00:32:34.000 The clamshell, inside of the puck.

00:32:36.000 So that's the surface, we're looking at the surface of this clamshell.

00:32:39.000 Yeah, that's the top of this thing.

00:32:39.000 Yeah.

00:32:40.000 And so he'd have it in there.

00:32:42.000 Now the whole sensitivity for him is his real-world implications.

00:32:46.000 If he's telling the truth to us about it, I don't understand what I just saw, though.

00:32:49.000 I didn't see anything.

00:32:50.000 You didn't see it, Ben.

00:32:51.000 You don't see it.

00:32:51.000 Replay that again, James?

00:32:52.000 It's the only piece of the tape that still exists, but it's not the key part of that.

00:32:56.000 All it shows, Joe, is that they filmed a home experiment back then.

00:33:00.000 He demonstrated for his friends how light was bent by the material itself.

00:33:05.000 I understand that, but I'm not seeing that here.

00:33:07.000 You're not seeing it.

00:33:08.000 This is the only piece of the tape that still exists, but it's not this central piece.

00:33:12.000 Was this in the film?

00:33:13.000 Yeah, it was briefly.

00:33:14.000 I didn't highlight it because it was like...

00:33:16.000 I'm not seeing anything in this.

00:33:17.000 This is what's confusing to me.

00:33:19.000 This seems like nothing.

00:33:20.000 Like nothing's going on at all.

00:33:21.000 Right.

00:33:22.000 That's the point, is that he has a long version.

00:33:25.000 George, blame him.

00:33:26.000 Yeah, it's my fault.

00:33:27.000 No, but I understand.

00:33:27.000 But why is this in the film, then, if nothing's happening?

00:33:29.000 It was a splash over when he was talking about 115. He doesn't like talking about how he got it out, but it was like an Easter egg.

00:33:37.000 Jeremy wanted to demonstrate that the recording did exist at one point, but that's the only piece that's left of it.

00:33:43.000 I'm the guy who got the tape.

00:33:44.000 So you got a full tape, but you just don't know where it is.

00:33:47.000 I have no idea.

00:33:47.000 Is it in your house somewhere?

00:33:48.000 I doubt it.

00:33:50.000 I mean, I've looked.

00:33:50.000 He's looked.

00:33:51.000 I've looked.

00:33:51.000 Where could it be?

00:33:53.000 Dude, you should see his house.

00:33:55.000 Joe, I looked for years, man.

00:33:57.000 I went through, made him take and digitize all these tapes.

00:34:00.000 I took hundreds of tapes and digitized them, looking for this little two minutes.

00:34:04.000 That seems like a big deal, though.

00:34:06.000 Yeah, it's a really big deal.

00:34:06.000 How could you lose that?

00:34:07.000 I mean, I've got thousands of tapes from that era, and I have saved them all, and I've moved them around, and I use them in different productions.

00:34:17.000 I can't find it.

00:34:18.000 I know that is very unsatisfactory for people, and I've been accused of making it up, or lying, or hiding it.

00:34:24.000 It's actually very appropriate, considering the history of this stuff.

00:34:27.000 Yes.

00:34:28.000 It's kind of funny. 1.00

00:34:29.000 Frustrating as fuck, man. 1.00

00:34:30.000 Of course, but... 1.00

00:34:31.000 But kind of funny.

00:34:32.000 The aftermath of Bob coming forward, of course, it messed with his life in a big way.

00:34:37.000 And he was not all that much of a – he was sort of a semi-recluse anyway.

00:34:42.000 But the stuff that goes on here even 31 years later, you know what it's like.

00:34:46.000 These fanboys.

00:34:48.000 He's got people that got the Bob Lazar disease really bad, and they still deal with him.

00:34:52.000 They spend their days now, all these years later, focusing on Bob.

00:34:56.000 Two weeks ago, somebody put something on Twitter.

00:34:58.000 It was an interview.

00:35:00.000 These guys had gone to New Mexico to find people that had worked with Lazar a long time ago and then tried to dig up dirt.

00:35:06.000 Hey, do you remember working with Bob or you knew him back then?

00:35:09.000 Yeah.

00:35:10.000 Did he have teenagers working for him at his photo shop?

00:35:13.000 Yeah.

00:35:13.000 You ever seen anything weird with him and little girls?

00:35:16.000 No, the guy says.

00:35:18.000 And then the interviewer says, well, we heard that he tried to solicit a 14-year-old girl to work at a brothel.

00:35:24.000 And then they put this, the guy says, I don't know anything about that.

00:35:28.000 They put this on Twitter with the headline, Bob Lazar solicited 14-year-old girl to go into prostitution.

00:35:35.000 So who's doing this? 0.71

00:35:36.000 Just some online trolls?

00:35:38.000 People who've got it bad.

00:35:39.000 And there are so many of them that every day they post something about Bob Lazar.

00:35:44.000 Really?

00:35:44.000 Every day.

00:35:45.000 Oh my god, dude.

00:35:46.000 Well, I think UFOs attract a certain percentage of schizophrenics.

00:35:50.000 Totally.

00:35:51.000 But this is like so...

00:35:57.000 I've never seen it like this.

00:35:59.000 I've never...

00:35:59.000 I get it.

00:36:00.000 Because I did a film on Bob, I get death threats because of Bob.

00:36:05.000 That's his life every day.

00:36:07.000 You know, I had a military guy who I had asked...

00:36:12.000 Yeah.

00:36:36.000 It's no wonder that you've gone back and forth on it.

00:36:39.000 So have I. Questioning whether, is this a good use of my time?

00:36:42.000 Because there are so many of them that are absolutely nuts. 1.00

00:36:45.000 And psychopaths. 1.00

00:36:47.000 And they make stuff up. 0.94

00:36:49.000 They also make a living doing it.

00:36:51.000 Like Jamie and I were watching Ancient Aliens the other day and we were laughing.

00:36:54.000 We're like, what are the qualifications of being a UFO researcher?

00:36:59.000 You don't have to have a degree. 0.80

00:37:00.000 You just have to be a bullshit artist who's willing to get on the History Channel and talk about UFOs. 0.98

00:37:05.000 Literally, you just have to know a few facts that you could spit out. 0.99

00:37:09.000 And some guys were clearly reading off of a script.

00:37:11.000 I'm like, this has got to be the lowest bar in terms of like, what does your son do?

00:37:18.000 Oh, he's a scientific expert on the History Channel.

00:37:21.000 Amazing.

00:37:22.000 But what is he really? 1.00

00:37:23.000 He's a fucking UFO researcher. 0.99

00:37:25.000 Well, what does that mean? 0.99

00:37:26.000 It just means he's a guy who's into UFOs who can string words together in an appropriate sentence that seems like he knows what he's talking about, and so they put him on TV. And when I did that sci-fi show, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, I lost all my faith in UFO research.

00:37:41.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:41.000 And I brought it back because of your documentary is what brought it, and Dave Foley, because talking to Dave.

00:37:47.000 Fucking love Dave. 0.95

00:37:48.000 I love Dave. 0.99

00:37:48.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:37:49.000 But he's so into it, man.

00:37:50.000 I'm like, really?

00:37:51.000 He's like, you gotta look into this, you gotta look into that.

00:37:53.000 He's telling all these things.

00:37:54.000 I'm like, alright, one more time.

00:37:55.000 Here we go. 1.00

00:37:56.000 And then when I watched your documentary, I was like, holy shit. 0.99

00:37:58.000 I'm so glad. 0.80

00:37:59.000 It really rekindled my thoughts about Bob Lazar because I remember being really interested in it in the 90s. 0.93

00:38:04.000 The topic itself discourages serious inquiry by journalists, by scientists, because you have to wade through so much crap. 0.99

00:38:12.000 You know, 90-95% of it is total crap. 0.95

00:38:14.000 Or it is honest misidentifications of prosaic objects. 0.98

00:38:18.000 But that 5%, it's really interesting.

00:38:20.000 And it's why the government is now, you know, looking into it once again.

00:38:24.000 Yeah, it is really weird to see the government looking into it openly.

00:38:27.000 That's what's strange.

00:38:28.000 The fact that the younger version of me would be bracing myself for contact.

00:38:35.000 It's coming.

00:38:36.000 They're talking to us about it now.

00:38:37.000 Because my thought was always like...

00:38:39.000 They probably – if UFOs are real and aliens exist, they have it in contact, they probably don't think we can handle it.

00:38:45.000 So they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work, go back to sleep, do what you got to do, don't pay attention to this.

00:38:55.000 This is all nonsense and that's what most people do.

00:38:57.000 But when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain.

00:39:06.000 And they're saying this just out in public, in legitimate, recognized publications, newspapers, television shows.

00:39:16.000 It's weird to see.

00:39:17.000 Very weird for me.

00:39:19.000 Now, it's, you know, 33 years that I've been chasing this, and I become...

00:39:23.000 And I don't want to talk about me, but I mean, I've become the UFO reporter, whether I like it or not.

00:39:28.000 I'm not the UFO reporter.

00:39:30.000 I'm a reporter who's interested in that.

00:39:32.000 The UFO stories I've done in all that time, it's been a lot.

00:39:35.000 But as a percentage of all the reports that I do, it's small.

00:39:38.000 I'm a news guy.

00:39:40.000 I chase bad guys mostly for the I-team.

00:39:42.000 But those UFO stories have gone all over the world.

00:39:46.000 The UFO field is so polluted with liars and exaggerators and fast-buck artists and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas, to make money, to get attention. 0.72

00:40:01.000 It takes 90% of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the hard facts, and there aren't that many of them, and to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth. 0.87

00:40:15.000 It's a task that is difficult, and I don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake, because it's not something you could do in a week.

00:40:24.000 I remember saying to myself, this is how cocky I was in the beginning, is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books, and boy, this field is a mess.

00:40:31.000 But there is some good information in here.

00:40:34.000 Give me six months, and I'll have this figured out.

00:40:36.000 Well, there's 33 years later.

00:40:38.000 I know less than I did now.

00:40:39.000 I know I have a lot more facts in my head, but all the big questions, we don't have answers to them.

00:40:43.000 I don't think anybody does.

00:40:44.000 Who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested in us, what the long-term agenda is.

00:40:49.000 We don't know that, and I don't think anybody does.

00:40:52.000 I've gone pretty far high up the food chain.

00:40:55.000 As a career journalist, what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying, we are trying to investigate these reports, we know that there is something to them, these are real claims by You know,

00:41:12.000 real pilots, real scientists have reviewed these things and they find them troubling.

00:41:18.000 It's a mix.

00:41:22.000 I think?

00:42:01.000 We've got to figure out who's got this technology because we don't.

00:42:09.000 It's not ours.

00:42:10.000 And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it – nope, we don't have any UFO reports – have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages.

00:42:20.000 They have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time.

00:42:25.000 So to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously, which I have known all along.

00:42:31.000 Of course they have to study this.

00:42:33.000 Unknown craft float over our nuclear missile bases, disarm the missiles.

00:42:38.000 We have fighter jets go after them. 0.91

00:42:40.000 They leave them in the dust.

00:42:42.000 They can fly circles around our best technology.

00:42:44.000 They mess with nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, nuclear facilities like Los Alamos.

00:42:50.000 It is a national security issue, and they have been paying attention to it.

00:42:54.000 They just haven't been telling us.

00:42:55.000 So for the New York Times to come out in December 2017 and say, yeah, there was a program, and yeah, they've been looking at UFOs.

00:43:02.000 Oh, by the way, it's all done now.

00:43:05.000 It's still a mixture of lies and some glimpses of truth, but I never thought I would see this in my lifetime.

00:43:12.000 I never thought I'd see this much progress.

00:43:14.000 The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject.

00:43:19.000 And I'll tell you, Joe, there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so.

00:43:26.000 Did you see Trump on TV being interviewed by his son?

00:43:28.000 Yeah.

00:43:29.000 It was kind of hilarious.

00:43:30.000 There's very interesting things.

00:43:32.000 Very, very interesting.

00:43:33.000 We're going to open Roswell.

00:43:34.000 We're going to open Roswell.

00:43:36.000 I think he made Area 51. Yeah, well, he's barely paying attention.

00:43:39.000 I think he has been briefed.

00:43:40.000 Yeah.

00:43:40.000 I think he has been briefed more than once.

00:43:42.000 You know, I think because he watches Tucker Carlson, and Tucker's got UFO people on there once a month.

00:43:47.000 Does he?

00:43:48.000 Yeah, he's been – he's had – for the last year, he's had UFO people once a month or so, Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon and people like that.

00:43:55.000 And I thought that would – if anything, that would get Trump's attention because you know that's what he pays attention to.

00:44:00.000 Right.

00:44:01.000 That's hilarious.

00:44:02.000 These stories about UFOs over nuclear bases and weapons facilities and things along those lines, has that been substantiated?

00:44:11.000 Oh, yeah.

00:44:12.000 Yeah.

00:44:12.000 So this happened...

00:44:13.000 Tell me the stories.

00:44:14.000 1975, they called it the Northern Tier case.

00:44:17.000 So we have a string of bases up by the Canadian border all the way across the U.S. from Maine to Montana, nuclear missile facilities.

00:44:24.000 They were ready to go in the darkest days of the Cold War.

00:44:27.000 Those missiles, ICBMs, are ready to go, aimed at Moscow and other places.

00:44:32.000 And in 1975, 74 and 75, one after another, these bases were visited.

00:44:38.000 I think?

00:44:59.000 We can't catch them.

00:45:00.000 Whatever they were, it clearly is a threat to national security.

00:45:03.000 Can I stop you for a second?

00:45:04.000 Is there an official record of these encounters?

00:45:07.000 Yes.

00:45:07.000 And those documents, you can find them.

00:45:09.000 The Washington Post broke the story in the 70s.

00:45:12.000 They had obtained some of these documents.

00:45:17.000 We're good to go.

00:45:41.000 It's chilling.

00:45:42.000 Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the U.S., but in Russia.

00:45:46.000 So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world.

00:45:52.000 And one of the places I went twice was Russia.

00:45:55.000 After the fall of the Soviet Union, it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us.

00:46:06.000 And I met a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs.

00:46:14.000 He was getting ready to go back to Russia.

00:46:15.000 He had been the national security advisor to Boris Yeltsin.

00:46:18.000 He was a national security advisor to the Russian parliament.

00:46:21.000 He had taught...

00:46:26.000 We're good to go.

00:46:47.000 And I thought, well, they had just, the KGB had just released its Oswald files.

00:46:52.000 I thought, maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know.

00:46:56.000 Because they are a superpower.

00:46:57.000 They have nuclear weapons.

00:46:58.000 They would have seen the same things we've been seeing.

00:47:00.000 So I went to Russia.

00:47:02.000 We sent Nikolai back to Moscow, gave him a stipend, and his instructions were, find people who are in a position to know, high up in the military or the government, who have never talked about this before.

00:47:16.000 And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up, and then I went to Russia and met him and interviewed him.

00:47:23.000 Thank you.

00:47:30.000 Thank you.

00:47:45.000 If they saw any ball of light, anomalous aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB, and all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense.

00:47:55.000 Colonel Sokolov was that desk, and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before.

00:48:00.000 He told me about 45 different incidents where Russian warplanes had chased UFOs, couldn't catch them.

00:48:06.000 Three of the instances, these UFOs shot them down.

00:48:09.000 Two of those pilots died, and after that he said, The order went out, look, if you see these things, don't mess with them.

00:48:16.000 He said their study was for a very practical reason.

00:48:19.000 These craft could do things that the Russians could not. 0.99

00:48:22.000 And they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology.

00:48:27.000 So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFOs work so they could have an advantage over us.

00:48:35.000 I had to smuggle some of these documents back.

00:48:38.000 If I had been caught with this stuff – because some of it was classified – if I'd been caught, I'd still be in a gulag somewhere.

00:48:44.000 But I got it back.

00:48:45.000 I shared it with some people.

00:48:47.000 It eventually found its way into the U.S. government's hands.

00:48:50.000 And it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government, that they have always taken this seriously.

00:48:56.000 And one of the incidents – I'm sorry I made the long way around on that story – was an ICBM base in the Ukraine.

00:49:03.000 Colonel Sokolov says that a giant UFO appeared over this base.

00:49:07.000 These are missiles that are trained to go to New York and Los Angeles.

00:49:11.000 They're very serious stuff there.

00:49:12.000 It's a very secure facility.

00:49:14.000 Giant UFO appears over this base.

00:49:16.000 It splits into pieces and then it melds back apart and it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours.

00:49:24.000 The base is on high alert and all of a sudden the nuclear control facilities Lights up like a Christmas tree.

00:49:31.000 And whatever this thing was, it entered the launch control codes.

00:49:36.000 The missiles were enabled.

00:49:38.000 They start firing up.

00:49:39.000 They're ready to go.

00:49:40.000 And then poof, UFO goes away.

00:49:42.000 The whole thing shuts down.

00:49:44.000 It goes back to normal.

00:49:45.000 Colonel Sokolov sent his team, he and his team, sent there to investigate it.

00:49:49.000 They took the machines apart, could not figure out what it had done.

00:49:52.000 And he told me on camera, we think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons, but we're not impressed.

00:50:00.000 Same kind of thing happened here.

00:50:01.000 We don't like to admit it, but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen.

00:50:06.000 Now, what is a bigger national security issue than that?

00:50:09.000 Or like the Tic Tac.

00:50:10.000 You've got a nuclear-powered carrier there and other warships around it, and you've got these strange radar sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S. This is an intruder.

00:50:24.000 And even though these aliens, whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our cities, you have to consider it a threat.

00:50:31.000 That's the job of our Defense Department.

00:50:33.000 They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there, and it's not ours.

00:50:36.000 And I think that's what the program is going on right now.

00:50:40.000 It's a legitimate national security issue.

00:50:42.000 It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone.

00:50:48.000 The Tic-Tac craft that was spotted off San Diego, it performed something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of the water to 60,000 feet in how long?

00:51:10.000 Less than a second, but there's actually more to it.

00:51:13.000 There was a craft.

00:51:15.000 Remember, I was talking with Commander Fravor before this was public.

00:51:18.000 We're good to go.

00:51:37.000 And stopping on a dime and then making the movements Commander Fravor saw, like inside of a glass.

00:51:44.000 Then he said to me in our first talk ever, I'll never forget this, because I'm talking to a fighter pilot and I got to talk fighter pilot.

00:51:52.000 And he says to me, It noticed me.

00:51:54.000 I go, what do you mean it noticed you?

00:51:56.000 And he says, as I was descending rapidly to engage it, it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror my movements, came right up by me.

00:52:06.000 And he says, faster than you can see, like you can't even see a bullet leave a gun.

00:52:11.000 No, it just, bam, shot off.

00:52:14.000 He goes, we don't have anything like that.

00:52:15.000 I wish we did.

00:52:17.000 We don't.

00:52:18.000 Whatever propels that is not a reactionary propulsion system.

00:52:24.000 Meaning it's not pushing something off the back to get it to go forward, like fire and explosions.

00:52:29.000 It's a field propulsion.

00:52:30.000 Yeah, like anything else we know, you got to have something going back to go forward rockets.

00:52:34.000 We're still using the same ones from back in the day.

00:52:36.000 This thing instantaneously, without effects of inertia, can move.

00:52:41.000 And that distortion, that's exactly how Bob described these things would work or do work in his opinion.

00:52:49.000 So Commander Fraber got to see it.

00:52:51.000 And these incursions, by the way, look, there's stuff George reports on.

00:52:55.000 There's a lot he doesn't.

00:52:56.000 As a filmmaker myself, people tell me stories all the time.

00:52:59.000 These incursions, it's not a rarity.

00:53:02.000 These are happening to this day.

00:53:04.000 I just heard about one in Guam.

00:53:07.000 Incursions over high security airspace over our weapons systems.

00:53:14.000 And in Guam, there was just recently an incursion.

00:53:17.000 The Pantex facility with the igloos where we hold our nuclear weapons and stuff like that.

00:53:23.000 There are incursions over these.

00:53:25.000 So to George's point, the reason why maybe all this is secret is not because we can't handle it.

00:53:30.000 People flip out.

00:53:31.000 Maybe we just want to make sure we fucking get this tech first because it's a game changer.

00:53:35.000 Now, let's talk about the people that have tried to debunk this and why they're off. 0.83

00:53:40.000 Because they've made some debunking claims about some of these videos and about the technology that was used to track these things.

00:53:50.000 That's incorrect.

00:53:51.000 Where they don't really understand what they're debunking.

00:53:55.000 Right.

00:53:56.000 So please explain that because that's one of the things that people are immediately going to go to.

00:54:00.000 They're going to go, well, Mick West has already debunked it.

00:54:02.000 And I've read the stuff that he says.

00:54:04.000 It's mental gymnastics.

00:54:07.000 To try to explain it the way he's explaining it without recognition of the fact that these things were actively blocking radar.

00:54:14.000 These things were actively blocking tracking systems.

00:54:17.000 These were physical crafts.

00:54:19.000 This is not like a bird.

00:54:21.000 No.

00:54:21.000 Like a lot of the wacky theories that he has are like, I wonder, you know, it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions.

00:54:33.000 Very weird.

00:54:34.000 Almost like someone wants him to do those.

00:54:37.000 Sure.

00:54:38.000 I mean, look, it's so exciting that we're seeing something and the government saying, okay, these are UFOs.

00:54:43.000 We have not identified them.

00:54:44.000 They have propulsion techniques that we don't have.

00:54:47.000 And we're just talking about the videos.

00:54:49.000 Let's talk about the debunking now.

00:54:51.000 Okay.

00:54:51.000 Talk about the debunking and what his claims are in the debunking.

00:54:54.000 Okay, so one that I recently attacked because it was so ridiculous is he was saying that the Go Fast video, which is this object that goes along in a straight line, one of the three videos that was released, he said it was probably a bird.

00:55:09.000 That was his first theory.

00:55:10.000 Let's pull up the Go Fast video.

00:55:12.000 Yeah.

00:55:12.000 I mean, I recently went deep into talking with Boeing experts who work on these FLIR pods.

00:55:22.000 They're telling me how they work, what they can capture.

00:55:25.000 Explain what a FLIR pod is.

00:55:27.000 A forward-looking infrared.

00:55:28.000 So basically on fighter planes, you have a camera.

00:55:33.000 So here's a video we're pulling up right here.

00:55:34.000 Sure.

00:55:35.000 That's mounted.

00:55:37.000 And it's essentially recording in thermal imagery.

00:55:41.000 This is not Instagram.

00:55:43.000 These things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent spatial awareness and to be able to target enemy combatants.

00:55:55.000 This is not an iPhone, an Instagram.

00:55:57.000 These are weapons for us.

00:55:59.000 So out of the three videos, If we just look at this one, although I like the Tic Tac one with Commander Fravor and I like the gimbal one.

00:56:06.000 Those are awesome.

00:56:07.000 This one gives us very little information.

00:56:09.000 But the idea that this would be a bird, if you talk to anybody that uses these pods, you can't pinpoint on a bird.

00:56:18.000 You can't lock a weapon system on a frickin' bird.

00:56:22.000 Well, look how fast it's going, too.

00:56:24.000 Well, here's what's so interesting, is everybody can debate speed.

00:56:27.000 So this is where it's locked in on it.

00:56:29.000 So the weapon system is locked in on this thing and it's tracking it now.

00:56:33.000 Right.

00:56:33.000 And they got real excited when they locked it because they boxed a moving target, right?

00:56:39.000 So here's the deal though.

00:56:40.000 Out of anything I could say about this video because there's not a lot of information in there, what I can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean.

00:56:50.000 Now I looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information.

00:56:55.000 It was like 65 degrees.

00:56:58.000 What propulsion system...

00:56:59.000 Okay, so a bird.

00:57:00.000 A bird is about 100 and let's say 5 degrees, like a seagull.

00:57:04.000 Seagulls can go maybe 15 miles an hour.

00:57:05.000 I don't know how fast they can go.

00:57:07.000 But they wouldn't be colder than the ocean.

00:57:10.000 They'd be hypothermic and dead.

00:57:13.000 It cannot be a bird because what we're seeing is a colder object than the surface of the water.

00:57:19.000 That's why you're seeing it white. 0.56

00:57:21.000 And how fast is it going?

00:57:22.000 That's under debate.

00:57:23.000 There's different...

00:57:24.000 Interpretations?

00:57:26.000 Yeah.

00:57:26.000 So I'll give you one interpretation about, you know, 240 miles an hour, some people say.

00:57:32.000 And then they can argue, well, the fastest bird in a nosedive could go that fast.

00:57:36.000 Back up.

00:57:37.000 We have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water.

00:57:49.000 It cannot fly at that.

00:57:51.000 So that's the piece of information I would attack that debunking with.

00:57:55.000 But this video, when you're watching that, if it is going 200 miles an hour, that's not outside of what's possible with spacecraft or aircraft or just planes.

00:58:05.000 Right, but it's cold.

00:58:07.000 I understand that.

00:58:08.000 That's pretty cool.

00:58:08.000 No, it's very interesting.

00:58:10.000 But it's not moving anywhere near as fast as the Tic Tac.

00:58:14.000 No, no, no.

00:58:14.000 This is just something, because this is part, and George can tell you, this is part of a much bigger series of events.

00:58:20.000 So like the gimbal craft itself, that's another debunking thing.

00:58:24.000 They said it's a plane banking away, and you're seeing it through thermal.

00:58:28.000 First of all, talk with the pilot. 0.99

00:58:29.000 Not fucking so. 0.99

00:58:30.000 This is the gimbal. 0.99

00:58:31.000 Yeah, the gimbal.

00:58:32.000 He's pulling it up right now.

00:58:33.000 And how fast is this thing supposed to be going?

00:58:36.000 You know, the speed, from what I recall, wasn't registered...

00:58:41.000 It's not that it's going fast.

00:58:42.000 If you talk with the pilots, it was rotating.

00:58:45.000 It was spinning like a top end for like 11 hours without refueling.

00:58:50.000 I mean, the thing was just sitting out there.

00:58:52.000 This is an occurrence that happened over a course of many, many weeks.

00:58:57.000 Now, when it rotates like that, the debunking theory is that you're seeing a plane bank.

00:59:03.000 So as if our military doesn't know what another plane is, Other planes look very different when you see them through thermal.

00:59:11.000 This thing was self-rotating.

00:59:13.000 And I just did an interview.

00:59:14.000 And how fast is this, or rather, how warm is this thing supposed to be?

00:59:18.000 Is this supposed to actually be hot?

00:59:20.000 I am unaware.

00:59:22.000 Because you're looking at it through thermal, right?

00:59:24.000 Yeah, I'm unaware of the specifics of that one when it comes to heat.

00:59:27.000 All I know is that it is self-actuating.

00:59:30.000 It is not something that is a glare or flare of a heat signature making it look like it's turning.

00:59:36.000 The actual craft is self-actuating.

00:59:39.000 And what is that halo around it?

00:59:42.000 That's just an artifact of the FLIR thermal.

00:59:45.000 It's not...

00:59:45.000 The premise that the U.S. government would tell you, all right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly.

00:59:52.000 Lou Elizondo is the guy that got them released, and then the U.S. government formally released them a couple of months ago.

00:59:58.000 The idea that the U.S. government would release it, the Pentagon says, these are unidentified.

01:00:03.000 You know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio.

01:00:12.000 Our government does not tell members of Congress, the Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't.

01:00:22.000 And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they were forced to release it to begin with, suggests it really is unidentified.

01:00:31.000 Why do you think they've addressed it?

01:00:33.000 Why do you think that they have addressed the fact that they're studying these things?

01:00:36.000 Why not just continue denying it?

01:00:38.000 I think they were forced to.

01:00:40.000 And some props to Tom DeLonge.

01:00:42.000 I know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here, but he created an organization.

01:00:49.000 Lou Elizondo, who ran that program, came forward and brought with him those videos.

01:00:54.000 I saw them two days after Lou Elizondo stepped on a stage with Tom and said, I was in charge of the program.

01:01:00.000 He and Chris Mellon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into the New York Times.

01:01:07.000 That changed everything.

01:01:08.000 As I said, the last two and a half years, everything has turned on its head.

01:01:13.000 The New York Times covers the story.

01:01:14.000 The result is other media covered as well.

01:01:17.000 They've been ignoring it forever, and that allowed people to keep these secrets.

01:01:22.000 That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions.

01:01:26.000 Two days after the story came out, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program that became AATIP. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who are now suddenly interested.

01:01:38.000 I didn't know there was a program they're telling him.

01:01:40.000 How do we learn more about this?

01:01:42.000 It started a series of closed-door briefings on Capitol Hill that continue to this day.

01:01:47.000 The pilots, like Dave Fravor, were hauled before Congress, first in front of the staff of the Senate Intelligence, and then Senate Armed Services, and then the elected members, these senators who get briefed on it.

01:01:58.000 And they were impressed, and they wanted more pilots to come in.

01:02:01.000 So it's been going on for two and a half years.

01:02:03.000 And two weeks ago, no, excuse me, about a month ago now, The culmination of it, Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops this bill.

01:02:13.000 And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for next year.

01:02:16.000 And he includes a UFO provision in there.

01:02:19.000 We want, Congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings from the Pentagon on UFOs.

01:02:26.000 That's an astonishing change of events.

01:02:28.000 It's because of the media pressure and then congressional interest.

01:02:32.000 It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter.

01:02:37.000 It's kind of out of the shadows and the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts.

01:02:41.000 So sometimes, as they said to the New York Times, that program ended.

01:02:45.000 It had nothing to do with UFOs.

01:02:47.000 At first they said it did, then they said it didn't.

01:02:49.000 They've admitted Lou Elizondo worked on the program, then they said he didn't.

01:02:53.000 They've said that the OSAP, which is the other program, the mother program that became AATEP, that that had nothing to do with UFOs, but it did.

01:03:02.000 So they continue to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters, but the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore.

01:03:12.000 You should tell Joe about how the government program ASAP was created directly because George wrote this book about a little place called Skinwalker Ranch where the government was studying this property.

01:03:25.000 That happened because of his book, some DIA guys. 0.97

01:03:28.000 You should tell the story.

01:03:29.000 I visited that place.

01:03:31.000 Yeah, but you – yeah.

01:03:32.000 Right.

01:03:33.000 Yeah.

01:03:33.000 Yes.

01:03:34.000 Yeah.

01:03:34.000 I think you got a little misled on it.

01:03:38.000 Tell them how the government study started from your work.

01:03:44.000 It's fascinating.

01:03:44.000 Some of it stems back to Lazar.

01:03:47.000 So we did that story in the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that was a guy I'd never heard of before named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire.

01:03:55.000 He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that.

01:03:57.000 I've been interested in UFOs for a long time.

01:03:59.000 Can I help you?

01:03:59.000 Meaning, can he help fund me?

01:04:01.000 I said, I work for a TV station.

01:04:02.000 I don't need any help.

01:04:04.000 But he was not to be deterred.

01:04:05.000 He then reached out to Lazar.

01:04:07.000 They had a little – he started meeting with him and pumping him for information.

01:04:11.000 And that really amplified Bigelow's lifelong interest in it.

01:04:15.000 He created something called NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Science, which he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in both the UFO field and the field of consciousness.

01:04:27.000 So they're looking at two questions.

01:04:29.000 Is there life elsewhere in the universe?

01:04:31.000 Is it here?

01:04:32.000 And do humans survive after death?

01:04:35.000 And he assembled this board, former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Hal Puthoff, physicists, psychologists, really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics.

01:04:51.000 I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it, not all of it, but some.

01:04:54.000 And I told Harry Reid about it in 1996, and he said, can I go?

01:05:00.000 And so he showed up and sat in on the meetings, and he was kind of hooked.

01:05:04.000 Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bob Lazar outside of our newsroom.

01:05:08.000 Before we aired the stories, I'd known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982. Then he becomes Senate Majority Leader.

01:05:16.000 So he'd always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly.

01:05:20.000 That does not help your reelection chances.

01:05:22.000 So in 2005, We write the book about Skinwalker Ranch.

01:05:28.000 NIDS, that team, bought the ranch.

01:05:30.000 They were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated.

01:05:37.000 They approached it like scientists would.

01:05:39.000 They looked for prosaic explanations.

01:05:40.000 They looked for gravity anomalies.

01:05:43.000 They looked for psychoactive plants.

01:05:45.000 Could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something?

01:05:48.000 Are the witnesses lying?

01:05:49.000 They investigated the background of the family that had lived there.

01:05:52.000 And they found out that it could not be explained, all the range of activity there.

01:05:57.000 So it was not only UFOs.

01:05:59.000 What kind of activity are we talking about?

01:05:59.000 Well, it starts with UFOs because that's what got their attention.

01:06:03.000 The Uinta Basin in northeastern Utah has always been a UFO hotspot.

01:06:08.000 Everybody who lives there basically has seen them.

01:06:11.000 Balls of light, orbs, structured craft, daylight, nighttime.

01:06:15.000 In 1976, a guy named Dr. Frank Salisbury wrote a book about it, The Utah UFO Display.

01:06:21.000 And he took hundreds of these cases that have been collected by the locals.

01:06:26.000 There was a local science teacher named Junior Hicks.

01:06:29.000 Who, because he had taught generations of kids science in that area, when people would see UFOs, they'd call up Junior Hicks.

01:06:36.000 And he went and go and investigate them.

01:06:38.000 And he had had hundreds and hundreds of files.

01:06:41.000 He gave them over to this guy, Salisbury, who wrote a book about it.

01:06:44.000 And he said, these are real.

01:06:45.000 You know, they're going on.

01:06:46.000 But Junior Hicks would disregard any high strangeness cases that came along with the UFOs.

01:06:52.000 Anything weird, Bigfoot, Ghosts, anything like that.

01:06:56.000 He thought it was too incredible, and he discarded that.

01:06:59.000 Bigelow buys the ranch.

01:07:01.000 He hears about these stories going on on this one property, flies in, meets with the rancher.

01:07:06.000 And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months.

01:07:10.000 And they were so scared that he, his wife, and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them so badly.

01:07:20.000 Their property had had...

01:07:23.000 Ghost-type activity?

01:07:25.000 Poltergeist kind of things?

01:07:26.000 Trickster activity?

01:07:28.000 For example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store. 0.94

01:07:31.000 She buys all this food, comes back, puts it on the table, takes it out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in, all the food's back in the bag.

01:07:40.000 We're good to go.

01:08:01.000 They start hearing voices at night in the air, speaking a strange language.

01:08:05.000 They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big, lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside.

01:08:14.000 Then their animals started being mutilated.

01:08:17.000 Cows.

01:08:18.000 The tracks would lead out into the snow and then just be gone.

01:08:22.000 Calves mutilated, cut up with surgical precision.

01:08:25.000 Cats wiped out, carved up.

01:08:28.000 Dogs that were vaporized.

01:08:30.000 Hundreds of these incidents.

01:08:32.000 They would see holes in the sky, like a great big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it.

01:08:39.000 Now this rancher, college-educated guy, grounded, strict religious guy, Thinks the government is trying to run off his property.

01:08:48.000 So he's out there at night lurking with a gun, trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff.

01:08:53.000 And it's not government agents.

01:08:54.000 It was something else.

01:08:55.000 They start seeing UFOs of all shapes and sizes.

01:08:58.000 The first one they saw was like a, they thought it was a Winnebago.

01:09:01.000 This ranch is a beautiful place, and it only has one way in and one way out.

01:09:06.000 They see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead.

01:09:10.000 How How did this guy get past the house here and get down there?

01:09:13.000 He must be stuck.

01:09:14.000 Let's go down and help him out.

01:09:15.000 The lights start coming toward he and his son.

01:09:18.000 Then they go up into the sky, up over the trees, and then poof, gone.

01:09:23.000 These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go, they seemed to touch the fear center in your brain.

01:09:35.000 They'd get near them.

01:09:36.000 They looked like a little bigger than a softball.

01:09:39.000 Made out of glass with a swirling blue liquid, scared the hell out of the animals, and then it scared the hell out of the people, too.

01:09:46.000 This literally drove them to their knees with fear.

01:09:49.000 These red orbs that would stampede the cattle.

01:09:52.000 They lost so many cattle that they began to think that they were going to go under.

01:09:57.000 They had these four prized bulls.

01:09:59.000 I know I'm jumping around, but there's a lot of stories.

01:10:01.000 These four prized bulls, 2,000 pounds each, behemoths, very expensive animals because they were raising seven tall cattle.

01:10:09.000 Had them in the corral, and the husband and wife, they always felt like they're being watched.

01:10:15.000 He says to the wife as they're driving to town, man, if something happens to one of those bulls, We'll go under.

01:10:21.000 We'll be done.

01:10:22.000 They come back a half an hour later.

01:10:24.000 All four of the bulls are gone.

01:10:25.000 They jump out.

01:10:26.000 They're freaking out.

01:10:27.000 Where did they go?

01:10:28.000 Did somebody steal them?

01:10:28.000 Are they rustlers looking around all over the place?

01:10:31.000 In this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store tools.

01:10:36.000 And there's only one door into it.

01:10:37.000 And it's locked with this heavy piece of wire.

01:10:41.000 The door's still locked.

01:10:42.000 The wire is still on there.

01:10:43.000 The guy, just as a last resort, he looks into the grating on top of this trailer, and there's the four bulls inside.

01:10:51.000 Door's still locked.

01:10:52.000 They're all crammed in there.

01:10:53.000 Now, you could take a forklift.

01:10:54.000 You could have a team of 50 people, and they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer, but there they were.

01:10:59.000 He yells to his wife, Hey, honey, they're in here.

01:11:03.000 And when he says that, the Bulls wake up as if out of a trance, kick the door down and all got out.

01:11:10.000 The NIDS team, which had been on the property for a couple of years at that point, We're good to go.

01:11:40.000 It did not like being stalked and it played tricks on them.

01:11:43.000 And they never made the stuff public because what are you going to do?

01:11:46.000 Write a paper about this?

01:11:47.000 Who's going to print it?

01:11:48.000 You can't make a documentary about it because they weren't there with cameras.

01:11:52.000 Is there any evidence?

01:11:53.000 Well, all this we're saying those cattle mutilations, I guess that's some evidence, but that's only evidence of cows and we can mutilate cows.

01:12:02.000 What about all this other stuff?

01:12:04.000 Like for the first 20 months when the rancher is there, they don't have any evidence because he's not a paranormal investigator.

01:12:10.000 They're not taking photos or something.

01:12:12.000 They want it to go away.

01:12:13.000 So they don't have any evidence of that except for what the rancher told them.

01:12:16.000 But then they talk to the larger community.

01:12:19.000 And the same thing has been happening to all the neighbors.

01:12:21.000 The guy who lives next door had lost all these cattle as well.

01:12:25.000 Seized the craft.

01:12:26.000 Sometimes these craft would float around.

01:12:28.000 They looked like stealth fighters with Christmas lights around them.

01:12:32.000 Floating around silently.

01:12:33.000 Again, is there any evidence?

01:12:35.000 No, not really.

01:12:35.000 I mean, so Bigelow puts up cameras all over the property, and you have them focused here where some activity had happened before, the thing moves over here.

01:12:46.000 You move the cameras and focus there, it goes away.

01:12:50.000 Toward the end of the study, whatever it was that was there, one of these cameras would rip to shreds.

01:12:57.000 They're up on top of a telephone pole.

01:13:00.000 30, 40 feet in the air.

01:13:01.000 And there's wires that are secured all the way down the telephone pole.

01:13:05.000 And they notice that one of their cameras goes out.

01:13:08.000 They figure, well, there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up, some kind of animal or whatever.

01:13:14.000 Well, whatever it was, was invisible.

01:13:18.000 And I know it's very frustrating.

01:13:19.000 It certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be caught.

01:13:25.000 It wanted to demonstrate that it was there, but it didn't want to have evidence.

01:13:29.000 The calf that was mutilated was in – I know it's a lot to handle.

01:13:34.000 Yeah.

01:13:35.000 The calf that was mutilated, it was a Sunday morning.

01:13:37.000 It's 10 o'clock on a quiet morning.

01:13:39.000 It's daylight.

01:13:40.000 The rancher and his wife are there by themselves.

01:13:43.000 They're tagging newborn calves, tag their ears.

01:13:45.000 And they tag this one right by the ranch house, 50 yards from their home.

01:13:49.000 And they go off across the property.

01:13:51.000 It's a clear day.

01:13:52.000 It's unobstructed.

01:13:54.000 Their dog is with them and makes a noise that points them back toward that first calf that they had mutilated.

01:14:00.000 Tagged.

01:14:00.000 And the dog indicates that something's wrong.

01:14:03.000 And they see the mom cow is dragging its leg and going around in a semicircle.

01:14:07.000 It's in distress.

01:14:08.000 They go running back over there.

01:14:10.000 And this calf had been completely stripped of flesh.

01:14:13.000 Nothing left but a hide and bone.

01:14:15.000 And one of the femur bones had been ripped out and thrown on the side.

01:14:19.000 Well, they call in the NIDS guys.

01:14:21.000 They bring in trackers.

01:14:22.000 There are no tracks.

01:14:23.000 There's no human tracks, no vehicle tracks, no animal tracks.

01:14:27.000 The thing had been completely stripped of blood.

01:14:29.000 There's not a drop of blood on the ground.

01:14:31.000 It's gone.

01:14:32.000 75 pounds of meat, gone.

01:14:35.000 Again.

01:14:35.000 Over a time period of?

01:14:37.000 30 minutes.

01:14:39.000 Is there a team of commandos that comes in and does that?

01:14:41.000 Where does the blood go?

01:14:43.000 Yeah.

01:14:44.000 And there's evidence of this?

01:14:46.000 Yeah, it's on video.

01:14:47.000 Photographs?

01:14:47.000 Yeah, video.

01:14:48.000 Can we see that?

01:14:49.000 Yeah.

01:14:49.000 Where is it?

01:14:51.000 I made a movie called Hunt for the Skinwalker.

01:14:54.000 It's in there, right?

01:14:55.000 Is that the only place?

01:14:56.000 Yeah, it's probably some other places.

01:14:59.000 There's photos and videos.

01:15:01.000 I'm with you, man.

01:15:03.000 What's the speculation about why would they do this and why would they do the cattle mutilations?

01:15:09.000 Is there any speculation?

01:15:12.000 Some.

01:15:13.000 So some of it is a demonstration.

01:15:15.000 I mean, it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention.

01:15:18.000 This trickster element has been reported in other places around the world.

01:15:22.000 There's no hotspot quite like Skinwalker, and I know how weird it sounds.

01:15:27.000 There's no spot like that because there's no spot that's been studied to that extent.

01:15:32.000 The NIDS guys were there for, well, Bigelow owned the property for 20 years.

01:15:36.000 NIDS was active for seven or eight.

01:15:37.000 Then another secret study funded by the government came in.

01:15:41.000 Under an organization called Bass.

01:15:44.000 That was the money that Reed got.

01:15:46.000 He got 22 million dollars and went to Bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world to try to find UFO information but other related phenomena.

01:15:56.000 Things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs but which are.

01:16:02.000 A guy from the DIA had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property.

01:16:09.000 This guy's a double PhD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications, the hole in the sky in particular with things coming in and out.

01:16:19.000 He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things happen.

01:16:22.000 Did they film that hole in the sky?

01:16:23.000 No.

01:16:24.000 Again, that's when the rancher is there by himself.

01:16:26.000 So he's not a UFO guy.

01:16:28.000 He's not trying to document it.

01:16:29.000 I understand.

01:16:30.000 But is there any evidence of anything weird, anything other than mutilated cows?

01:16:37.000 Well, let's see.

01:16:39.000 The video of the camera that was torn up by something invisible, they had something that...

01:16:45.000 So in the video, you can see the camera being torn apart?

01:16:47.000 You can't see anything.

01:16:49.000 There's nothing.

01:16:50.000 You can't see anything.

01:16:51.000 You can see before it happens, it's normal, and afterward...

01:16:56.000 How much time is taking place between before and after?

01:17:00.000 I can't remember.

01:17:01.000 But I mean, could that be hoaxed?

01:17:03.000 Yeah, if Bigelow wanted to.

01:17:05.000 But again, they weren't there to, in the beginning at least, for NIDS, they weren't there to try to prove that aliens are visiting.

01:17:13.000 They're just trying to figure out why all this weird stuff is happening in one spot.

01:17:16.000 It mixes in a lot of Native American lore that got mixed in the picture, but it's been going on in that Uinta basin for 200 years.

01:17:26.000 Why?

01:17:27.000 Don't know.

01:17:27.000 I mean, our government has studied the medicine.

01:17:30.000 So, like, what is evidence?

01:17:31.000 It's so frustrating to me, too.

01:17:32.000 When I was introduced to the skinwalker thing through George, man, I'm with you. 1.00

01:17:37.000 Like, what's the evidence?

01:17:38.000 What's going on?

01:17:39.000 The weight of evidence is when you talk to people in the area and they all have these commonalities.

01:17:44.000 Some people died of exotic cancers from burns from above where lights came down and hit them.

01:17:49.000 And that's evidence. 0.99

01:17:50.000 Their face is completely irradiated and they fucking died. 0.99

01:17:53.000 So there's the cow. 0.99

01:17:54.000 That's the cow. 1.00

01:17:55.000 Yeah.

01:17:55.000 So you have a scientist like Dr. Colin Kelleher.

01:17:58.000 Hold on for a second.

01:17:59.000 That's where they found it?

01:18:00.000 Look at that. 1.00

01:18:02.000 What in the fuck? 1.00

01:18:04.000 That is so crazy. 1.00

01:18:06.000 Now, did they scan the area to look for another spot where it could have been slaughtered before it was moved to this area?

01:18:11.000 Well, that's what they concluded is it had to have been taken somewhere and slaughtered and then brought back.

01:18:16.000 Jamie, can you make that a little larger, please?

01:18:18.000 Can you just zoom in on that?

01:18:20.000 Because that doesn't look very surgical to me.

01:18:22.000 That looks like wolves.

01:18:23.000 Yeah, there's no...

01:18:25.000 They actually did an analysis and it was done with two types of metallic tools.

01:18:31.000 But look at all the jagged edges.

01:18:34.000 So they took samples and they sent them to two pathology labs.

01:18:37.000 Didn't tell the guys what they're looking for.

01:18:40.000 You tell us what you can see.

01:18:41.000 And the pathologist said that two instruments had been used.

01:18:45.000 One was a heavy machete type instrument that had been hacked.

01:18:48.000 And then there is a scalpel that had surgically removed a lot of the flesh underneath.

01:18:53.000 It looks like something killed it, and then they moved it to that spot.

01:18:57.000 I mean, if I had to guess, the way it's eaten, though, I mean, it looks like it was eaten.

01:19:02.000 Well, there's no teeth marks.

01:19:03.000 There are metallic marks.

01:19:05.000 There's no teeth mark.

01:19:06.000 Like a slice.

01:19:08.000 Sliced.

01:19:09.000 Okay.

01:19:09.000 So something sharp sliced it.

01:19:11.000 So I think the bigger point is this was happening on this ranch with owners prior to owners prior to owners.

01:19:18.000 I got to talk to a lot of people.

01:19:21.000 So here's the deal.

01:19:22.000 The connection of this...

01:19:23.000 So George does this thing.

01:19:25.000 He reports on this for 20 years.

01:19:27.000 The government is now studying this ranch, right, because of deployment or because of...

01:19:33.000 All this weird stuff.

01:19:34.000 Why is the government spending money through OSAP to study this ranch and other things? 0.92

01:19:39.000 And that's where it gets really fucking interesting.

01:19:41.000 What happens after with our government programs? 0.91

01:19:44.000 And that's what you know.

01:19:45.000 Before we get to that, this image, like the jagged edges around the ribcage, that's supposedly sliced?

01:19:52.000 Hacked.

01:19:53.000 Okay.

01:19:55.000 I mean, look, let's say it's people doing this, you know, to farmers to get them out of there.

01:20:00.000 Let's say it's some program.

01:20:01.000 I mean, although the cattle mutilation thing, you gave me a stack of documents this big, has been studied by the FBI. It's happened all over the country.

01:20:10.000 No one has ever been caught.

01:20:13.000 Not a single person.

01:20:15.000 More than 10,000 cases.

01:20:16.000 With all the same types of cuts.

01:20:18.000 I mean, this is not my expertise.

01:20:20.000 I've seen a lot of that.

01:20:21.000 It's really weird.

01:20:22.000 There is another theory.

01:20:23.000 The lack of blood is the weirdest part of it.

01:20:26.000 See, what makes sense to me...

01:20:31.000 Is that something killed that, they butchered it, they chopped all the meat off of it, and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there.

01:20:40.000 That's what it looks like, if I had to guess.

01:20:42.000 That's what NIDS thinks.

01:20:43.000 There's no way that it was killed right there because you're seeing fresh, clean hay underneath it everywhere.

01:20:50.000 There's no blood, which doesn't make any sense at all.

01:20:53.000 I think the question is, is this a government program?

01:20:55.000 Is this something or is this a scare tactic?

01:20:57.000 It's been happening since the 50s.

01:20:59.000 It's a weird scare.

01:21:00.000 Click on that one below it, Jamie, the brown one with the green.

01:21:04.000 Yeah, that one, please.

01:21:05.000 Thank you.

01:21:06.000 That's a weird one, too.

01:21:07.000 There's like a hole cut out.

01:21:10.000 And there's a bunch of these they found all over the country and weirdness, like organs removed.

01:21:15.000 But the weirdest part about it is it's almost always there's no blood.

01:21:19.000 Yeah, I just investigated one, which I never thought I would do, but I got a call from a guy in Texas.

01:21:24.000 You had to see it physically?

01:21:25.000 Yeah, so right before lockdown, I go out and I'm like, this is so wild, I gotta check this out.

01:21:31.000 The guy calls me, it's a pretty fresh-y one at this point.

01:21:34.000 Now, I'm no expert, but I went and got samples and took them to labs and this sort of thing to see if there were tools used.

01:21:39.000 So you got, here's my experience.

01:21:41.000 Did you get pictures of this?

01:21:42.000 Yeah, I filmed the whole thing.

01:21:43.000 Do you have it on your phone?

01:21:44.000 I'll show you after I got it on my phone.

01:21:45.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:21:46.000 So I got great fucking photos. 1.00

01:21:48.000 Weird shit. 1.00

01:21:49.000 Well, listen, man. 1.00

01:21:50.000 Airdrop them to me now.

01:21:51.000 We'll send them to Jamie and we'll put it up on the screen so other people can see it.

01:21:55.000 Okay.

01:21:56.000 So let me...

01:21:56.000 Yeah, after the show is not going to help us.

01:21:58.000 Okay.

01:21:59.000 While you're looking, I'll tell them about one of the theories about the cattle mutilations that Dr. Kelleher, Dr. Colin Kelleher developed, was that somebody is tracking the spread of, like, mad cow.

01:22:09.000 Yeah, I think.

01:22:32.000 Fed into chickens and things like that and feed.

01:22:35.000 It's in deer.

01:22:36.000 It's called chronic wasting disease in some circles.

01:22:40.000 It's just weird.

01:22:41.000 Well, chronic wasting disease, that's a different prion disease than mad cow, right?

01:22:48.000 Well, it's a variation.

01:22:49.000 Crutzfeldt-Jakob disease, I think, too.

01:22:51.000 So the same kinds of things in different species.

01:22:56.000 It is indestructible, again.

01:22:58.000 So you hit a deer that's got this and you grind it up and you feed it to pigs, the pigs get it.

01:23:03.000 Yeah.

01:23:04.000 And then it could be passed on to other species and it shows up in different ways.

01:23:08.000 Kelleher was exploring the idea, well, whether or not it might be the cause of Alzheimer's or a version of mad cow in humans.

01:23:16.000 Do you...

01:23:18.000 They're all going to you right now.

01:23:19.000 I don't see it.

01:23:21.000 Oh, it says downloading.

01:23:22.000 Oh, I'm downloading them.

01:23:24.000 Oh, right, right, right.

01:23:25.000 Are you on the Wi-Fi?

01:23:27.000 No, but it's coming through.

01:23:28.000 Here you go.

01:23:29.000 It's about to go to you.

01:23:30.000 It says waiting.

01:23:31.000 Okay, got it.

01:23:31.000 Boom.

01:23:32.000 I mean, I guess this does highlight, because this is my very limited amount of...

01:23:36.000 Can you send those to Jamie, too?

01:23:38.000 Jamie, can you put your airdrop on?

01:23:39.000 Airdrop, Jamie?

01:23:40.000 Sorry.

01:23:41.000 Should have had you do that right away.

01:23:42.000 It's ready to roll.

01:23:44.000 His airdrop is open.

01:23:45.000 I don't see you, bro.

01:23:47.000 Bro.

01:23:47.000 Hold on.

01:23:48.000 There you go, young Jamie.

01:23:50.000 So this is the stuff that you physically encountered...

01:23:55.000 Okay.

01:23:55.000 You physically saw this cow, and I'm looking at these images right now, and we're going to show them in a second.

01:24:00.000 And this is, you said Texas?

01:24:02.000 Yeah.

01:24:03.000 Where in Texas?

01:24:04.000 Oh, gosh, what was the name of it in the panhandle?

01:24:09.000 Yeah, I'm blanking.

01:24:10.000 So here's the deal.

01:24:12.000 Oh, yeah, that's it.

01:24:14.000 So I made the movie based on George's work of the same title, Hunt for the Skinwalker, right?

01:24:21.000 And that movie was telling this story about how the United States government was studying this property and land because of UFOs and weird stuff.

01:24:30.000 That and weird stuff included things like cattle.

01:24:33.000 Pull up this one.

01:24:35.000 There's a lot of weird images, man.

01:24:37.000 The skin removed around the face.

01:24:40.000 Right.

01:24:41.000 So this is my first chance to see this for myself.

01:24:45.000 Because last time I was on your show, it was the ones in Oregon had just happened up at that ranch.

01:24:50.000 And I thought, well, okay, if I'm ever going to do it, now's the time to do it.

01:24:55.000 So I go.

01:24:56.000 I get this call.

01:24:57.000 Now, remind you, this is a rancher.

01:24:59.000 This is their livelihood.

01:25:01.000 It's this huge, huge area of land.

01:25:04.000 Stop right there.

01:25:05.000 They're a very religious community.

01:25:09.000 Nobody...

01:25:10.000 We go out to the middle of this land.

01:25:12.000 And in the middle, there's this dead cow.

01:25:17.000 No blood.

01:25:18.000 And he had seen it prior.

01:25:20.000 And the reason he called me is because in my movie, you could see this special kind of slice, like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real mutilations.

01:25:29.000 And he is looking at it.

01:25:30.000 He's like, that's exactly like in the movie.

01:25:32.000 And this is a straight shooter.

01:25:34.000 He's a religious guy.

01:25:35.000 He had to ask his pastor if he could even, like, go on camera with me.

01:25:39.000 Freaks him out so he sees this now he sees dead animals all the time and he saw this cow he said before Accidentally he was out shooting BB guns with his kid and he's on this big part of land and he sees this down bull and He goes over to it and he's looking at it and it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before it had Surgical cuts there is no doubt somebody Killed Cut up this animal with those classic,

01:26:05.000 like the ear gone, two types of tools, like a scissor type. 0.95

01:26:10.000 By the way, I tried to cut it.

01:26:12.000 It is not easy to cut.

01:26:13.000 So they had sharp tools, and then there's like a very thin slice kind of cut.

01:26:19.000 So I got to take it, get samples, take them to labs, and try to see...

01:26:24.000 What type of tools did this?

01:26:25.000 How did they do this with no blood on the ground?

01:26:28.000 And all the soil around it was dead.

01:26:30.000 So I was like, well, why is it all dead?

01:26:32.000 Is that a natural thing?

01:26:33.000 So I took soil samples and took them to a lab.

01:26:35.000 And again, I'm outside of my...

01:26:36.000 This is weird to me.

01:26:39.000 But I think it's a real phenomenon.

01:26:42.000 Somebody is killing these animals.

01:26:44.000 Something, someone.

01:26:45.000 However you want to say it, something, someone is killing these animals in a highly specified technical way that has been repeated since the 50s on.

01:26:55.000 Our FBI has studied it.

01:26:57.000 He has shown me so many reports of these in association with discs, saucers.

01:27:03.000 Did this guy have any association with discs or saucers or anything?

01:27:08.000 No, he's just a guy that owns the land.

01:27:10.000 So he just found this cattle that's weirdly mutilated.

01:27:14.000 Somebody killed it.

01:27:15.000 Yeah.

01:27:16.000 And he's like, is this demonic?

01:27:17.000 Is this some sort of Satanist thing?

01:27:19.000 And I said, I don't think so, man.

01:27:20.000 This goes back in history.

01:27:21.000 Like, I'm looking at the cuts specifically.

01:27:24.000 They're very unimpressive.

01:27:26.000 It doesn't look like a laser did it or some incredibly sharp scalpel.

01:27:32.000 No, it was like a serrated tool.

01:27:36.000 That's the thing I'm saying.

01:27:37.000 It's like something that we could do.

01:27:38.000 Oh, absolutely.

01:27:40.000 We'd have to somehow do it, though, in Texas land, where the guy would shoot you in the face if you go and try to touch one of his cows.

01:27:47.000 See, that's the other thing.

01:27:48.000 No one's ever been caught.

01:27:50.000 Never.

01:27:51.000 That's what's weird.

01:27:52.000 Yeah, it's weird.

01:27:53.000 It's frustrating, too.

01:27:54.000 I mean, I've been to the ranch, the Skinwalker Ranch, in the basin more than two dozen times.

01:27:59.000 I've never seen anything.

01:28:00.000 I've interviewed the neighbors.

01:28:02.000 I've interviewed the scientists.

01:28:03.000 These are PhD-level guys who had seen this stuff.

01:28:06.000 A lot of times they have cameras that fail.

01:28:09.000 I mean, it's, you know, you've heard that story before, and it's very convenient that it happens just when some giant disc shows up, but it does happen, that their car batteries would die in the same spot.

01:28:19.000 Whatever it was messed with them.

01:28:21.000 And maybe it's humans.

01:28:22.000 Maybe it is human technology.

01:28:24.000 But no humans were ever found to be doing this stuff.

01:28:27.000 NIDS was there for all those years.

01:28:29.000 They didn't want to tell anybody about it.

01:28:30.000 They shared the information with me, but you can't publish it.

01:28:34.000 There's no real physical proof.

01:28:37.000 So they just left it there.

01:28:38.000 And I had tried to do a documentary.

01:28:40.000 Ended up, I talked to them to let me write a book about it.

01:28:42.000 But, you know, if people...

01:28:45.000 If you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof, they don't have it.

01:28:49.000 What's the primary theory?

01:28:51.000 Are there any primary theories of why they do this to cows?

01:28:55.000 Why someone's doing this to cows? 0.95

01:28:59.000 You need to catch somebody and ask them.

01:29:01.000 That's really weird that no one's been caught.

01:29:06.000 Investigate the unexplained.

01:29:08.000 Don't explain the uninvestigated.

01:29:09.000 That's what he always says.

01:29:09.000 And it's like, I wouldn't think I would ever be interested in this.

01:29:12.000 But someone calls you and says they've got a fresh cattle mutilation and they're associated with the UFO phenomenon.

01:29:17.000 Sure, I'm going to look into it.

01:29:19.000 What I find more interesting is what's happening now with the government study that started here at Skinwalker Ranch, OSAP, the one that was in the New York Times, and where the information is going now.

01:29:30.000 These are new times.

01:29:32.000 Things are starting to drop to the public.

01:29:34.000 And what is starting to drop?

01:29:37.000 Well, they...

01:29:38.000 So...

01:29:39.000 The Skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence though there may be, comes to the attention of the Defense Intelligence Agency, this guy, this scientist who sees it.

01:29:47.000 He goes to Bigelow.

01:29:48.000 They go visit the property.

01:29:50.000 He looks around.

01:29:50.000 He has an experience.

01:29:52.000 He's not there 15 or 20 minutes and something appears inside a house that only he can see.

01:29:57.000 He doesn't say anything about it.

01:29:58.000 He goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in a skiff in the Capitol and two other U.S. Senators.

01:30:05.000 He presents them the proposal for a study of UFOs and related phenomena, not just like AATIP, looking at flying saucers that encounter U.S. military, but something more expansive.

01:30:16.000 They put out a contract.

01:30:18.000 Bigelow bids on it, creates an organization called BASS. Again, puts together a team of experts.

01:30:26.000 We're good to go.

01:30:47.000 Yanks the funding.

01:30:48.000 And get this, the reason that the DIA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at Skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic.

01:30:57.000 And they thought, if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena, A, it's going to end up on the front page of the New York Times, which it did, and B, we might be invoking Satan in here.

01:31:07.000 These were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil.

01:31:13.000 I'm not making that up.

01:31:15.000 That's hilarious.

01:31:16.000 And the program now continues.

01:31:18.000 They keep reporting that it's stopped.

01:31:20.000 It hasn't stopped.

01:31:21.000 The U.S. military has been studying UFOs since the beginning in every branch of our military.

01:31:26.000 They continue to do so.

01:31:28.000 And now every time they get caught in a lie.

01:31:30.000 So it is continuing.

01:31:32.000 Tell them about it.

01:31:32.000 It is continuing.

01:31:33.000 So all SAP's money was taken away.

01:31:36.000 But the ATEP program, which is what Lou Elizondo headed up, that looked just at military UFO encounters, continued.

01:31:43.000 Pentagon says it was ended.

01:31:44.000 It did not.

01:31:45.000 It continued for a couple of years, and after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furor, it got funding.

01:31:53.000 And it now has a structured organization, and it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things.

01:31:59.000 And off the coast of Virginia, they've been seeing this stuff.

01:32:03.000 I think Fravor talked about it when he was here.

01:32:05.000 Beach balls with cubes inside of them.

01:32:07.000 And they were sitting there for hours off the coast, right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises, as if they wanted to be seen.

01:32:15.000 And it went on.

01:32:16.000 There were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015-2016, pilots.

01:32:21.000 Some of them were willing to talk about it, some weren't.

01:32:23.000 It continues to this day.

01:32:25.000 Now the program is on more solid footing.

01:32:28.000 Now Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information.

01:32:33.000 We are told the New York Times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what Lazar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering, the existence of these metamaterials, bits and pieces that Grand Pod stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes.

01:32:50.000 They're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have created.

01:32:57.000 So the BAS program, the OSAP program, We're good to go.

01:33:28.000 I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.

01:33:31.000 These are like scientific reports based on the government study of UFOs.

01:33:37.000 So they commissioned these papers.

01:33:40.000 Only a handful have been released to the public.

01:33:43.000 George happens to have...

01:33:45.000 A couple more.

01:33:46.000 So you're going to be the first person outside of the program other than me to see it.

01:33:50.000 So what does it say?

01:33:51.000 They're called a DIRD. This is a defense intelligence reference document. 0.74

01:33:54.000 This paper is on metamaterials.

01:33:56.000 So how you could engineer existing earth materials where you could duplicate what you're seeing up there.

01:34:03.000 None of these papers, two of them actually, mention aliens or UFOs.

01:34:07.000 They're strictly on what the state of our knowledge is or was as of 2009. And they reference aliens and UFOs?

01:34:14.000 Only two of the papers do.

01:34:15.000 And how do they reference them?

01:34:16.000 Well, there's one of the papers that looks at the physical effects of people that come into contact with these unknown craft.

01:34:23.000 And it's sort of like the effects of radiation or microwaves.

01:34:26.000 There are physical effects, hundreds of cases that have been investigated, and that's what that paper looks at.

01:34:32.000 And that's already out there.

01:34:34.000 Yeah, the harm that is done to the body, what they call close proximity to a UAP, which is a UFO. There are known effects to the human body that are horrible.

01:34:44.000 And there was a study that focused on the witnesses they do know had close encounters, like military people.

01:34:50.000 And then how it negatively impacted their body.

01:34:53.000 So each of these reports, as he obtains them or as people find them, they're very illuminating to what our government knows.

01:34:59.000 There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space.

01:35:05.000 How difficult would it be?

01:35:07.000 It doesn't say UFOs, but it's looking at things that really travel fast that are coming in from space into our atmosphere.

01:35:13.000 How would you track that?

01:35:15.000 Now, when that paper was written in 2009, we didn't have hypersonic weapons.

01:35:18.000 Now, the Russians claim they've got them. 1.00

01:35:20.000 Now, it's very timely because we're in a rush to develop those things.

01:35:24.000 So that was one of the papers that I made public last year, and I interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it.

01:35:30.000 He wasn't writing about UFOs.

01:35:32.000 He was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapon systems back then.

01:35:36.000 It's a similar thing for metamaterials.

01:35:38.000 That's what this paper is.

01:35:39.000 How would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have, say, you shoot it with microwaves and it could develop certain special properties?

01:35:49.000 Just to put into context maybe, because here's the deal.

01:35:53.000 Our government has now admitted there are UFOs.

01:35:56.000 That's the world we're living in.

01:35:57.000 They're unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace, outmaneuver, actively jam our radar systems, even go over our military installations of high sensitivity.

01:36:08.000 There are incursions.

01:36:09.000 All of this is now said.

01:36:10.000 It's a different world we're living in.

01:36:14.000 The next thing that people are talking about now is, well, we also have materials.

01:36:19.000 We'll call them metamaterials.

01:36:21.000 Materials associated with UFO craft.

01:36:24.000 They might even go as far as to say we have whole materials, craft, from somewhere else.

01:36:31.000 So when they're saying we have materials associated from crafts, are they saying that they have a crash?

01:36:37.000 Yes.

01:36:38.000 Hal Puthoff, who was a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both NIDS and BASS, made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018, where he says, yeah, we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they were engineered, because some of them Appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known engineering capabilities of humans.

01:37:00.000 It looks like they would have had to have been made in, say, zero gravity of space, and we don't have any manufacturing plants up there.

01:37:06.000 He implied that they came from crashes.

01:37:09.000 Doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zeta Reticuli.

01:37:12.000 It's crashed from somewhere, and we don't know whose it is.

01:37:15.000 So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not.

01:37:18.000 And they got a bunch of samples and are...

01:37:20.000 Have you seen any of this stuff?

01:37:21.000 No, I haven't seen it.

01:37:22.000 Bigelow and Hal have.

01:37:24.000 Have you?

01:37:24.000 I've seen what people claim.

01:37:26.000 So the Army now has these metamaterials that were famously put in through, actually, the Coast to Coast show.

01:37:31.000 It was called Arts Parts.

01:37:33.000 I told you this last time.

01:37:34.000 I did.

01:37:34.000 I was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from New Mexico that I knew, material scientists, physicists, interrogate, as they say, the samples for numerous days.

01:37:47.000 I don't believe that I had access to the best equipment.

01:37:50.000 We didn't find anything extraordinary.

01:37:53.000 Other people have, so right now the Army has...

01:37:55.000 But when you say you didn't find anything extraordinary, did you find anything ordinary?

01:38:00.000 No, they weren't ordinary.

01:38:01.000 These are the materials here?

01:38:03.000 That's one of the exact pieces that I had in my hands and worked on with my team, and I filmed it all.

01:38:10.000 But right now, because of TTSA, they've made a deal with the Army, and I think the Army has these parts.

01:38:16.000 But I feel like we're missing the big note here.

01:38:19.000 The big note is, a few years ago, UFOs are still laughable.

01:38:24.000 Military doesn't look after that.

01:38:26.000 Turns out we have programs that do.

01:38:29.000 I'm suspecting, and maybe you can talk more about it, that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs, which will then make everybody have to look at Lazar's story a little bit differently once again.

01:38:41.000 If we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else, intelligently designed metals or craft from somewhere else, if there are crash retrieval programs, For vehicles we don't know where they're from,

01:38:57.000 that's going to make me look at Bob's story even more differently.

01:39:01.000 Right, but isn't that a big if?

01:39:04.000 It's an interesting time.

01:39:06.000 It is, but there's no indication that they're willing to discuss some retrieved craft, right?

01:39:12.000 Yeah, I think that's a heavy lift.

01:39:14.000 So supposedly the New York Times is working on that story.

01:39:16.000 I think it'd be pretty hard for them to...

01:39:18.000 More than supposedly.

01:39:19.000 They are.

01:39:19.000 Yeah, they are.

01:39:20.000 They've been asking people about this stuff.

01:39:21.000 But, I mean, to get that into print, to get it past their editors, that's a hard deal.

01:39:26.000 Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth.

01:39:36.000 Is that how you say that?

01:39:37.000 Bismuth.

01:39:38.000 And 100 to 200 microns of silver magnesium zinc alloy, each of the six pieces received from the U.S. Army source, were formed with a curvature that tapered.

01:39:48.000 So basically they're saying there's no process that we know of that would create this alloy layered in that type of layer system.

01:39:56.000 I actually have a piece out about this.

01:39:58.000 Isn't that kind of how they did samurai swords?

01:40:00.000 Ooh, that's cool.

01:40:01.000 I'm not sure that this is alien of any kind, but it is of unknown origin.

01:40:07.000 And...

01:40:08.000 Well, Jacques Vallée has like 20, as I said last, Jacques fucking Vallée, he's got like 27 samples of things associated with crash retrieval.

01:40:16.000 So if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now, and his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth, so he's confident with his research.

01:40:28.000 My big point...

01:40:30.000 He's confident with his research of what?

01:40:32.000 Well, you'd have to talk.

01:40:33.000 You should talk with Jacques.

01:40:35.000 Right, but what is he confident of that you can say?

01:40:37.000 That he has alloys that came from UFO crashes or runoff.

01:40:44.000 Has anybody independently analyzed those things and agreed with him?

01:40:47.000 Yeah, he's got a presentation.

01:40:49.000 Yeah, whole teams of people.

01:40:51.000 Well, how come this isn't like public knowledge?

01:40:53.000 Why isn't this in the New York Times?

01:40:55.000 You got to talk with Jacques, whether you have him as a guest or not.

01:40:59.000 How old is Jacques now?

01:41:00.000 He's getting up there.

01:41:02.000 He's in his 80s.

01:41:04.000 I'd probably have to go to him, right?

01:41:06.000 With a hazmat suit on.

01:41:07.000 No, he's a strong dude.

01:41:09.000 Where is he?

01:41:10.000 San Francisco.

01:41:11.000 Specifically, no.

01:41:12.000 What's the address?

01:41:14.000 Here's the thing.

01:41:15.000 This program is ongoing.

01:41:16.000 It doesn't have to find aliens.

01:41:18.000 There are legitimate national security reasons to be looking at who's flying these craft.

01:41:24.000 These things are still being seen over our military installations and our Pentagon wants to know who's flying them.

01:41:30.000 And that's a perfectly legitimate inquiry regardless of little green men. 1.00

01:41:34.000 No one wants to say there at the Pentagon that we're investigating UFOs and aliens.

01:41:39.000 They're just investigating where do these things come from?

01:41:42.000 Are they a threat?

01:41:43.000 Can we duplicate that technology?

01:41:45.000 If the Russians or the Chinese get this stuff before we do, if they can do what the Tic Tac did, it's a game changer. 0.99

01:41:52.000 So they want to know whose it is and how we can duplicate it.

01:41:57.000 And that is a perfectly legitimate inquiry whether they're aliens or not.

01:42:01.000 What is the most compelling piece of physical evidence to you?

01:42:08.000 I don't know.

01:42:08.000 I mean, I don't know that we have physical evidence other than if Bob Lazar's story is true, we've got craft out there that we didn't make.

01:42:16.000 I mean, the idea that we have stuff that we're reverse engineering to figure out how it was made, that would be the clincher.

01:42:24.000 I remember reading about J. Allen Hynek when he was running Project Blue Book and how he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up with some sort of rational explanation that he could pass off to the general public.

01:42:38.000 Swamp gas.

01:42:39.000 As time went on, he became a believer.

01:42:42.000 I thought that was really fascinating.

01:42:44.000 And then after Project Blue Book closed, he was very open and public about it.

01:42:48.000 I'll give you one of his cases from Project Blue Book.

01:42:50.000 It's April 18, 1962. The original explanation is it's a meteor.

01:42:55.000 It comes into an atmosphere over Cuba.

01:42:58.000 It goes all the way up the east coast of the U.S. When it gets to New York, it turns left.

01:43:03.000 It takes a left turn.

01:43:04.000 It goes all the way across the United States.

01:43:06.000 At a couple of places it slows down.

01:43:08.000 It's picked up on radar.

01:43:10.000 Jets are chased after it.

01:43:11.000 They can't catch it.

01:43:12.000 It keeps on going.

01:43:13.000 It gets to Utah.

01:43:14.000 There's a little town called Eureka.

01:43:16.000 And it lands.

01:43:17.000 Lands in Utah.

01:43:19.000 Knocks out the power to the whole town.

01:43:21.000 Then it takes off again.

01:43:22.000 That's a heck of a meteor.

01:43:23.000 It gets over near Mesquite, Nevada and explodes.

01:43:26.000 And this thing, the explosion was seen for hundreds of miles.

01:43:29.000 They saw it in Las Vegas and Reno.

01:43:31.000 I had interviewed a team that went out there to look for pieces.

01:43:34.000 They thought it might have been an airplane that exploded.

01:43:37.000 Supposedly never found it.

01:43:39.000 A meteor that travels, takes a left turn, slows down, lands, takes off again.

01:43:43.000 That's like no meteor I ever heard of.

01:43:45.000 But J. Allen Hynek's team from Blue Book in their files, that's how they explained it away.

01:43:51.000 The best evidence for me, because look, I'm just curious about this.

01:43:54.000 This is just one of those places where all the answers aren't there.

01:43:58.000 I want to know, man.

01:44:00.000 So the best evidence for me, because I ask that same question to everybody, it's the fact that we're being lied to.

01:44:08.000 That alone, we can prove that.

01:44:10.000 We can prove that our government intelligence agencies have actively partake in lying to us about the UFO subject.

01:44:18.000 That there are craft of unknown origin that fly with impunity in our airspace globally and throughout history.

01:44:27.000 And so the fact that they are lying and have been lying, that makes me, I'm like, why are you lying to me then?

01:44:32.000 I want to find out.

01:44:33.000 So for me, that's the greatest evidence that there's scientific studies on this stuff. 0.95

01:44:38.000 And everybody's hush the fuck hush about it.

01:44:41.000 Why? 0.98

01:44:41.000 Is it like North Korea had leapfrogged us 50 years ago, so all of a sudden, you know, that's our enemy? 0.98

01:44:47.000 I mean, who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space, drops down to sea level, docks like the Tic Tac was docking with a USO, an underwater craft, and it outpaces our military jets?

01:45:01.000 You've got to be dead to not be curious about this. 0.98

01:45:05.000 So that's the greatest evidence to me is the fact we've been lied to as an American population and we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit is real and our military is worried about it. 0.99

01:45:15.000 Well, if we haven't been lied to, at the very least, they haven't felt it. 0.93

01:45:18.000 Well, if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing, if this is all they have, I don't know what they would tell the general public.

01:45:27.000 Totally.

01:45:27.000 That's also part of the problem.

01:45:28.000 Yes.

01:45:29.000 What do you say?

01:45:32.000 As I said, this is an amazing time.

01:45:34.000 We're getting closer to knowing what the government knows, but that doesn't mean we'd have an answer.

01:45:38.000 I don't think they know either.

01:45:39.000 That was always my take on it.

01:45:41.000 It was like, why would they talk to the government?

01:45:43.000 Like, if you came from another planet and you were looking at us, us weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons, why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public?

01:45:57.000 Why would you elected leaders?

01:45:59.000 Would they really be important to you?

01:46:00.000 Like, it doesn't make any sense at all.

01:46:02.000 Yeah, I never really bought into the stories that there'd been a formal meetings or anything.

01:46:06.000 I think the government is as clueless as the rest of us.

01:46:08.000 They have more information because they have the sensors to collect it.

01:46:11.000 They have a giant apparatus, sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar.

01:46:16.000 Somewhere there's a giant pile of information that we haven't been able to see.

01:46:20.000 But it doesn't mean that it answers the question.

01:46:22.000 This thing has been with humans throughout history.

01:46:25.000 And it's always just tantalizingly out of reach.

01:46:28.000 You know, it used to be golden shields, and then it'd be swords and flaming chariots, and now it's flying saucers.

01:46:34.000 And it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve, but it's always out of reach.

01:46:39.000 And I think it will remain out of reach.

01:46:40.000 Well, there's one thing that Bob talked about from some of the documents that he had been given when he was working at S4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings.

01:46:53.000 And that is, to me, like, if you wanted to say, like, what's the thing that's going to get people to roll their eyes the most?

01:47:03.000 Well, you would say, well, the aliens came down here and they got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings. 0.99

01:47:14.000 A lot of people go, get the fuck out of here. 1.00

01:47:16.000 That's crazy. 0.98

01:47:16.000 But if you look at people, one of the weird things about people is how much we vary. 0.98

01:47:21.000 We're so different.

01:47:23.000 Not like any other animal.

01:47:26.000 Other than dogs. 1.00

01:47:27.000 And dogs are the way they are because we've fucked with them. 1.00

01:47:30.000 Because we've manipulated them. 1.00

01:47:31.000 We are the dogs of the rest of the world.

01:47:35.000 If you really think about it, We're so different than every other primate.

01:47:40.000 There's not even anything close to us.

01:47:42.000 And I know there were some other human species.

01:47:46.000 How do you say it?

01:47:48.000 The Denovians, right? 0.94

01:47:49.000 There's Neanderthals, Homo floriensis, which was those little hobbit people. 1.00

01:47:54.000 There have been a bunch of other humanoids.

01:47:56.000 But nothing that came close to what we are.

01:48:00.000 And if you look at ancient primates and us, the leap.

01:48:08.000 Between them and us is so quick.

01:48:11.000 The doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is just bonkers.

01:48:14.000 Like they don't know why.

01:48:16.000 They don't know what happened.

01:48:17.000 They have no idea.

01:48:18.000 But if that really is what happened, If they said, listen, they're going to get there, but we can help.

01:48:25.000 Like, let's just jump in, because these things...

01:48:28.000 Like, look, chimps are still chimps, right?

01:48:29.000 They're still murdering each other. 0.79

01:48:31.000 They're still tearing monkeys apart and eating them alive.

01:48:34.000 They're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years, whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable.

01:48:42.000 You know, it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so...

01:48:47.000 The advancement is so unique.

01:48:51.000 It's so different than any other animal.

01:48:53.000 If we really have been visited since the beginning of time, since history, if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the Bhagavad Gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about Vimanas and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high,

01:49:11.000 if all that really is Aliens intervening with the biological evolution of human beings. 0.94

01:49:20.000 How fucking weird are we? 0.59

01:49:22.000 If you think about how weird we are, period, maybe that would kind of explain that. 1.00

01:49:27.000 That we're some stupid science experiment. 0.99

01:49:30.000 Well, you know, people say, I want disclosure. 1.00

01:49:33.000 I want to know.

01:49:34.000 We're ready.

01:49:35.000 We can handle it.

01:49:36.000 Are you sure?

01:49:37.000 You can't handle the truth!

01:49:39.000 I mean, are you sure you can handle it?

01:49:41.000 Because we don't know exactly what it is that can be disclosed.

01:49:44.000 But what if it turns out that we're an agricultural product?

01:49:47.000 You know, we're being harvested for something or we're being allowed to breed and kind of a science experiment.

01:49:53.000 Let's see where this goes.

01:49:54.000 And then when it's time to end the experiment, I mean, I'm not sure people can handle it.

01:49:58.000 Look at how they've handled COVID. Well, if you would think about if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines, like If you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post-Hiroshima and Nagasaki,

01:50:19.000 that would kind of make sense. 0.99

01:50:21.000 Like, alright, these fucking dickheads, they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing. 1.00

01:50:28.000 They figured out how to light the match. 1.00

01:50:29.000 Like, if you take this primate, this animal, and you embed it with...

01:50:38.000 The superior or at least more evolutionary advanced genetics.

01:50:43.000 And you manipulate it to a point where you make it weaker but smarter, far more curious, and obsessed with innovation.

01:50:51.000 Let me just leave it there.

01:50:52.000 Well, it's just a matter of time.

01:50:54.000 Like, how much is that time?

01:50:56.000 Is it a thousand years?

01:50:57.000 Is it ten thousand years? 0.99

01:50:58.000 Over time, they're going to figure out some crazy shit. 0.99

01:51:00.000 Because they're just going to keep working together like they do, and then Boom! 0.99

01:51:05.000 Bombs go off and they're like, alright, we got a signal. 1.00

01:51:08.000 These crazy fucks have figured out how to split the atom. 1.00

01:51:12.000 We got to get down there and keep a closer eye on these people. 0.99

01:51:16.000 I'm open to that possibility of that being the case.

01:51:19.000 I mean, it's weird.

01:51:20.000 It's not the craziest idea.

01:51:21.000 No, there's crazier ones being put out today.

01:51:23.000 The Big Bang is the craziest idea.

01:51:25.000 We all agree on that.

01:51:26.000 That's the craziest thing.

01:51:27.000 The whole universe came out of nothing.

01:51:29.000 Smaller than the head of a pin.

01:51:31.000 Instantaneously creates everything you see in the night sky.

01:51:33.000 Okay.

01:51:34.000 The technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or craft or bits and pieces, you know, I sometimes equate it with, let's throw us, we're aliens, let's throw a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage.

01:51:46.000 Here, have at it.

01:51:47.000 See how you do for a while.

01:51:48.000 I don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out.

01:51:51.000 Well, more than that, it would be like, let's take a chimpanzee and let's manipulate its brain and leave them with a bunch of tools.

01:51:59.000 You know, give it some things and see what it comes up with.

01:52:03.000 And then come back and try again.

01:52:05.000 I mean, maybe Neanderthal was like, well, you know, they're not going to get any further past this.

01:52:09.000 Like, this project, we need to scrap it.

01:52:12.000 Start with something new.

01:52:13.000 I don't think that's not... 0.99

01:52:14.000 Look, we do weird shit to animals. 0.99

01:52:17.000 I mean, we study them. 0.99

01:52:18.000 You know, I was just talking to a friend of mine about zoos, about how bummed out I was when I went to this wolf sanctuary.

01:52:24.000 Because everybody's like, oh, it's amazing you get to see these wolves that they've rescued.

01:52:28.000 I got there.

01:52:29.000 I saw a bunch of castrated wolves that were living in prison.

01:52:32.000 I didn't think it was cool at all.

01:52:34.000 It freaked me out.

01:52:35.000 I got really depressed.

01:52:37.000 I think you look at what we're willing to do to chimps. 1.00

01:52:42.000 I mean, I remember going to...

01:52:44.000 I forget.

01:52:46.000 Maybe it was Denver.

01:52:46.000 I forget where it was, the zoo.

01:52:48.000 But there was a zoo where there was this monkey that was in a cage that was screaming.

01:52:53.000 Just screaming like he was going crazy.

01:52:55.000 It was a small cage.

01:52:56.000 And people were walking around.

01:52:57.000 He's like...

01:53:00.000 And I was like, he's probably going mad.

01:53:02.000 This is not how a monkey's supposed to live.

01:53:04.000 They're supposed to be in the jungle, in the wild, you know, harvesting food and living with other monkeys.

01:53:09.000 They're not supposed to be alone in a cage where these other weird primates walk by and stare at it.

01:53:15.000 It just overwhelms all of its defense systems and survival systems.

01:53:21.000 We're willing to do that to things that we know are at least slightly intelligent.

01:53:25.000 Like, what would be willing to do...

01:53:29.000 Weirder, more advanced experiments to primates to create us. 0.96

01:53:34.000 And how do you tell a population, if you do study UFOs as a government and you find out, okay, shit, they're a craft and they're coming in, they're probably studying us. 0.99

01:53:42.000 Like, how do you fucking tell people that? 0.99

01:53:45.000 Like, how are people going to react? 0.99

01:53:46.000 And the way that it's so compartmentalized, that's been the best proof to me as well.

01:53:51.000 If I've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like, all I saw was a supercapacitor in 1974 and I know this was not something we made.

01:54:01.000 He was told nothing else.

01:54:03.000 He just saw a technology that was more efficient than anything he had ever seen.

01:54:08.000 So the idea that people are funneling this information, whoever is funneling it, and protecting this information as we see How OSAP and AATIP didn't get special access permission.

01:54:20.000 That's a special type of program.

01:54:22.000 They knew about crash retrieval programs.

01:54:24.000 So they said, we want to compare notes and information with other UFO projects.

01:54:28.000 They were denied access.

01:54:30.000 Yeah, the door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask that.

01:54:33.000 Senator Reid, who was Senate Majority Leader, had asked for permission to create it as an SAP special access program.

01:54:39.000 So they could get access to other goodies, and they said no.

01:54:42.000 Like other retrieval programs, material programs, stuff that Bob has talked about.

01:54:47.000 So just the fact that it's so hidden, even within its own mechanism, that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project, it tells me, as Ravi says, something's up.

01:54:58.000 I mean, something's up.

01:54:59.000 Well, that was one of the weirder things about Bob's description of Area S4, about how compartmentalized everything was.

01:55:07.000 About, you know, one group worked on metallurgy, the other group worked on propulsion, and they didn't share information.

01:55:13.000 It pissed them off so bad, man.

01:55:15.000 Well, it was what the way he described best is that scientific research, the way you progress is everybody works together and it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

01:55:27.000 So they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method.

01:55:32.000 They were trying to withhold information from them And only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are.

01:55:45.000 Bob said he wasn't the most qualified person to do the job either.

01:55:49.000 That freaked him out.

01:55:50.000 And he didn't have the right materials even.

01:55:52.000 Well, I think they probably, let's assume they are alien spacecraft.

01:55:56.000 They probably knew that no one was qualified.

01:56:00.000 They probably knew that we just really have no idea, especially if they had been working on these things for decades, like Bob assumed they had been.

01:56:08.000 They probably had gone through the best scientists that they could, and they realized, look, no one has any idea.

01:56:13.000 Let's get this out-of-the-box weirdo who puts jet engines in Hondas.

01:56:18.000 Let's get some...

01:56:20.000 Look, there's a lot of very strange people out there that are incredibly intelligent.

01:56:24.000 That might not fit into your standard educational bundle or category of research scientist or whatever.

01:56:33.000 He might just be a weirdo who likes to shoot guns and make hydrogen-powered Corvettes.

01:56:38.000 Maybe that's the kind of guy that's going to see something that maybe other folks haven't seen yet.

01:56:43.000 I think that's entirely possible.

01:56:45.000 It's also possible that they used him to discredit the idea of crash retrievals forever, you know? 0.98

01:56:50.000 Let's bring this guy in, show him some stuff, let him spout it out, then we'll cut his legs off. 0.53

01:56:55.000 Yeah, but the problem is the reason why he spouted it out was, you know... 0.97

01:57:01.000 It was so clear that they had nothing to do with that.

01:57:04.000 It was his wife having an affair, and he had top-secret clearance.

01:57:08.000 Because he has top-secret clearance, they're monitoring all of his phone calls.

01:57:11.000 They find out that the wife is banging her flight instructor.

01:57:14.000 And so they say, Liz, this guy's going to be unstable.

01:57:17.000 We can't have him work there anymore.

01:57:18.000 They suspend his working privileges, and he freaks out.

01:57:21.000 And then he takes people to see the launch sites.

01:57:25.000 He takes a look.

01:57:26.000 They do this at a certain time period every week.

01:57:28.000 I'm going to take you down there.

01:57:29.000 He takes his friends down there.

01:57:30.000 They get busted.

01:57:31.000 They get arrested.

01:57:32.000 It's just two, the actual verifiable facts of his being caught, the whole phone call thing, the fact that his wife was having the affair.

01:57:43.000 There's no way they're playing that kind of 4D chess. 1.00

01:57:45.000 This is the fucking government. 1.00

01:57:46.000 They're too goofy. 1.00

01:57:47.000 If I found out that Bob Lazar was lying to the world, I would be the first person to tell you. 0.93

01:57:52.000 There's no reason I wouldn't.

01:57:53.000 That was the whole reason I got interested.

01:57:54.000 That's why I contacted George back in the day. 0.97

01:57:57.000 I wanted to know if he was fucking making it up with Bob. 0.92

01:57:59.000 And I'll attest to you for whatever you value my opinion at. 0.98

01:58:02.000 I have been with Bob in his life, met everybody, his family.

01:58:09.000 The closer you get to his inner circle, the more you understand that he's telling the truth. 1.00

01:58:14.000 And never once have I found something where I'm like, you're a fucking liar. 1.00

01:58:18.000 Never once. 0.99

01:58:20.000 Yeah, it's a weird thing.

01:58:22.000 Like the only thing that people kept pointing to in the podcast is that he was getting migraines.

01:58:25.000 But dude, he had a migraine.

01:58:28.000 Migraines. 0.99

01:58:28.000 He had migraines earlier in the day. 0.99

01:58:30.000 I mean it wasn't any you could tell he would stop and he would wince and you know he just didn't like the idea that he was gonna do this thing that he knew that millions and millions of people gonna see him talk about this for hours and hours and he knew it was all gonna come back up again all the investigation all the people fucking with them all the attention that he had avoided another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story no and This guy told this story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it.

01:58:56.000 The migraine might have been the McDonald's.

01:58:58.000 His wife was furious at me because when I brought him over, I was like, just get some in your stomach, man.

01:59:02.000 So I think it was bad food.

01:59:03.000 It could have been that and the pressure, but the pressure is not innocuous.

01:59:07.000 The pressure was deep because he didn't know you.

01:59:08.000 He didn't know if you were just going to start asking him about his wife cheating on him.

01:59:14.000 It's like...

01:59:16.000 It's stressful, man.

01:59:17.000 Oh, listen, I get it, man.

01:59:18.000 I mean, that was one of the good reasons why we had dinner the night before with my buddy Andrew Schultz.

01:59:24.000 And I brought Andrew along, too, because he's a really smart guy. 0.99

01:59:26.000 And I said, just please, just pay attention to this motherfucker. 1.00

01:59:30.000 Tell me what you see. 1.00

01:59:31.000 Because if you see some bullshit, if you see some weirdness, let me know. 1.00

01:59:34.000 What did he say? 1.00

01:59:35.000 Nothing.

01:59:35.000 He said, I don't know.

01:59:37.000 He goes, if that guy's telling the truth, that is fucking crazy. 0.88

01:59:40.000 You know, because Andrew's a comic, but a really good one and a really smart guy. 0.94

01:59:44.000 Smart, yeah.

01:59:44.000 So his, I just wanted, you know, again, outside the box, have some guy who's not obsessed with UFOs at all, have him come.

01:59:51.000 And, you know, and Andrew asked a bunch of questions.

01:59:53.000 Andrew was at the bar before, when Bob and I arrived, we'd go up to the bar.

01:59:57.000 I didn't know who Andrew was, right?

01:59:59.000 And then Joe walks in, hey, Andrew.

02:00:01.000 And he had been sitting right next to us.

02:00:02.000 So Joe was putting spies out.

02:00:03.000 That was a good move.

02:00:05.000 But, you know, it's so frustrating.

02:00:08.000 It's fun.

02:00:08.000 And I think I would have stopped.

02:00:10.000 But George has been doing this 30 years.

02:00:11.000 It's like you always get one step forward.

02:00:14.000 And look, we all want to know if this stuff is true, but the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with.

02:00:23.000 It's just an exciting time.

02:00:25.000 And I think I learned more In this last year than all the time before.

02:00:31.000 And I think that that's going to continue.

02:00:33.000 I don't think we're all of a sudden going to say, okay, this doesn't matter anymore.

02:00:36.000 If this is real...

02:00:37.000 I'm not counting on any answers anytime soon.

02:00:40.000 We may know more about what the government knows, but that's not the ultimate answer.

02:00:43.000 I mean, what if it turns out...

02:00:45.000 These are not aliens.

02:00:46.000 They live here.

02:00:47.000 There's some other intelligence that we can't see.

02:00:50.000 They can reach in like rats in a cage and pull us out once in a while or do experiments to us.

02:00:56.000 And it's their planet.

02:00:57.000 And we're living in this tiny slice of reality and don't realize what's going on around us.

02:01:02.000 There's a UFC fighter, a woman named Angela Hill.

02:01:07.000 She's a badass. 1.00

02:01:08.000 And her grandfather is Barney Hill. 1.00

02:01:12.000 Oh, shit. 1.00

02:01:13.000 Oh, shit. 1.00

02:01:14.000 I didn't know until after the podcast. 1.00

02:01:16.000 Her and I did a podcast together just talking about her fighting career.

02:01:20.000 And then at the end of it, she goes, oh, there's one thing I forgot to bring up.

02:01:24.000 This is like after the show's over.

02:01:25.000 I'm like, what?

02:01:27.000 How did you forget to bring that up?

02:01:29.000 That is so crazy.

02:01:31.000 Her grandfather is one of the most important characters in the history of UFO abduction.

02:01:37.000 Betty and Barney Hill, who were a couple in New Hampshire?

02:01:42.000 Yes.

02:01:42.000 Maine or New Hampshire?

02:01:44.000 New Hampshire.

02:01:45.000 And they get abducted and through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of they lost time, their car stops, this UFO shows up and then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again.

02:02:03.000 And I had this conversation with someone where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO abductions?

02:02:07.000 And I said, I don't.

02:02:10.000 I don't believe in them, but I don't not believe in them either.

02:02:13.000 I don't.

02:02:14.000 I just keep a blank slate with this because...

02:02:19.000 And their take was like, wouldn't you think more people would talk about it?

02:02:22.000 I go, why would they do it that often?

02:02:25.000 I go, how many unique occurrences would have to take place before it would be common knowledge?

02:02:29.000 How many times would people have to be abducted before you would believe?

02:02:33.000 And what would they get out of these abductions?

02:02:36.000 And look, we know what we're willing to do with chimpanzees or gorillas or any other primate orangutans that we find in the wild.

02:02:43.000 They run experiments on them.

02:02:44.000 They capture them.

02:02:45.000 They do things to them all the time.

02:02:48.000 Why wouldn't something that's infinitely more intelligent than us abduct two folks that are driving somewhere, Betty and Barney Hill?

02:02:57.000 Why wouldn't they?

02:02:58.000 Why wouldn't they experiment on them?

02:03:00.000 There they are right there.

02:03:01.000 And these are people that don't want attention.

02:03:03.000 I mean, it's an interracial couple back in the, was it 50s or 60s?

02:03:07.000 It was probably in a lot of parts.

02:03:10.000 I mean, it wasn't until I found out until 1967 or 68, like while I was alive, that interracial couples were allowed to marry in the entire country.

02:03:21.000 So Betty and Barney Hill, it's kind of funny when I'm looking at Barney, he does kind of look like Angela. 0.85

02:03:27.000 Oh, you see the genetic.

02:03:28.000 I don't know.

02:03:29.000 Maybe I'm just looking into it.

02:03:30.000 Have you seen the Unsolved Mysteries one on abductions?

02:03:32.000 The new Unsolved Mysteries reboot?

02:03:33.000 No.

02:03:34.000 Oh, dude.

02:03:35.000 Great case.

02:03:36.000 Episode 5. The other case that fascinates me besides this one, but that one surely fascinates me because it's the original, but Travis Walton.

02:03:43.000 Yeah.

02:03:43.000 Yes.

02:03:43.000 Yeah.

02:03:44.000 That's a weird one, man.

02:03:46.000 It's a solid one, too.

02:03:49.000 I mean, I've met Travis a few times, and his story, like Lazar's, does not change.

02:03:53.000 There are additional witnesses.

02:03:55.000 What he went through is comparable to Bob.

02:03:57.000 I mean, he was called a liar, and basically I think his friends were accused of murdering him, and that's a solid case.

02:04:03.000 I mean...

02:04:03.000 It's a really weird one, too.

02:04:05.000 Another great case.

02:04:07.000 I met two of the girls, Salma and Liesel.

02:04:11.000 And you remember that...

02:04:13.000 School were like 80 kids or something.

02:04:16.000 I'm going to get some parts wrong.

02:04:16.000 80 kids saw these craft come down and the BBC came the next day with Dr. John Mack, head of Harvard Psychiatry.

02:04:22.000 And he's the one who wrote that book, Abduction, which I read.

02:04:25.000 This is what got him.

02:04:26.000 So these kids see this craft come down South Africa and at the aerial school.

02:04:33.000 And I actually got to spend a weekend with two of the primary witnesses, one that was three feet away from...

02:04:37.000 She's telling me there was a being there.

02:04:39.000 When you hear what happened to them...

02:04:41.000 Now, the BBC did film the next day.

02:04:43.000 You did have Dr. John Mack going and testing all the kids and trying to see consensus what they saw.

02:04:48.000 But when I met these two women later in life...

02:04:52.000 I can't dismiss what they're telling me.

02:04:55.000 It's like you telling me you went to the grocery store.

02:04:57.000 Why am I going to doubt you, man?

02:04:59.000 That's how matter of fact they are about it.

02:05:01.000 They don't know what they saw, but they know exactly what they saw.

02:05:06.000 They just don't know the implications of it.

02:05:07.000 Well, John Mack experienced a lot of blowback from that book.

02:05:12.000 You're talking about a guy who's...

02:05:14.000 Was he employed at Harvard at the time?

02:05:17.000 Yeah, he's head of Harvard Psychiatry.

02:05:18.000 Yeah, and so he writes this book about UFO abductions.

02:05:22.000 And I actually found out about it from my friend Mora, who worked with me on news radio with Dave Foley.

02:05:29.000 She actually was reading the book.

02:05:31.000 She's like, this is right up your alley.

02:05:32.000 She goes, it's so crazy.

02:05:33.000 Like, I didn't know what to think.

02:05:35.000 Somebody recommended it.

02:05:36.000 But along the way, she's like, these stories are so similar.

02:05:39.000 It's crazy.

02:05:40.000 Like, there's all these different people that don't know each other from all over the world that have really similar stories.

02:05:46.000 Like, if this thing is happening, again, how would anyone know?

02:05:51.000 And how many times would they have to do it?

02:05:53.000 And why would it be common knowledge?

02:05:56.000 Like, if they have the ability to come here from another galaxy or another solar system, and they can...

02:06:03.000 Penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a Distorted memory which it seems to be part of the story and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped and they come back very confused Like how many of those would take place before we would all know about it? 0.91

02:06:25.000 I mean you they wouldn't have to do it that often There's 300 million people and they do it once a week Who the fuck is going to know? 0.79

02:06:33.000 How are you going to hear about it? 0.95

02:06:34.000 What's proof?

02:06:36.000 What is a level of proof for those cases?

02:06:39.000 This phenomena is elusive.

02:06:41.000 It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities, but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it.

02:06:47.000 It's as if it's trying to tell us, it's like a learning curve, you know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is.

02:07:05.000 What's your take on Whitley Stryber?

02:07:08.000 It's a mix.

02:07:09.000 I think he's a brilliant guy, and I think he did have some experiences.

02:07:14.000 I don't know that the experience has continued.

02:07:17.000 You know, you get mixed signals from him.

02:07:19.000 The fact that he is a great novelist, a horror novelist...

02:07:22.000 Complicates it.

02:07:23.000 Complicates it.

02:07:25.000 He thinks about this stuff on a different level.

02:07:28.000 It used to be – we all thought it – saw that alien on the cover of his book, Communion, and figured it was a space alien from some other planet.

02:07:36.000 And he's on a whole different level about what they might be now.

02:07:39.000 What does he think they are?

02:07:42.000 In essence, gods.

02:07:43.000 I mean, Jacques Vallée had said, if you can manipulate space-time, if you can create your own gravity like the craft that Bob was talking about, you could be from other planets, other solar systems, other times, you could be time travelers, you could be from other dimensions, or all of the above.

02:07:58.000 Dr. John Mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multidimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet.

02:08:13.000 And that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out.

02:08:18.000 George is...

02:08:19.000 Go ahead.

02:08:20.000 I just, you know, George has been...

02:08:23.000 Remember, he is a journalist that broke mob stories, corruption stories, political corruption stories.

02:08:27.000 I mean, just last year.

02:08:28.000 I mean, this guy's been doing this for 30-something years.

02:08:30.000 UFOs has defined him because the world at large has defined him by the UFOs.

02:08:35.000 That's because of the stigma.

02:08:36.000 Now, of course, he's made lots of headway and does the coast show like Art Bell.

02:08:42.000 But what he's doing now is kind of cool.

02:08:44.000 After 30 years of studying this and filming with people on news, you get to drop 12 seconds, one minute in a news report.

02:08:51.000 He has a Akashic record of everybody ever involved with claims about this stuff throughout the last 30 years.

02:08:58.000 And he's been dumping it all online.

02:09:14.000 Where do you keep that?

02:09:17.000 It's called mysterywire.com.

02:09:20.000 I work for KLAS. I'm still part of the I-team, but since the beginning of the year, I'm focusing most of our attention on that, producing new content.

02:09:27.000 But all this stuff that I've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there.

02:09:32.000 Dr. John Mack will be on there eventually, because I got to interview him, too, while he's still alive.

02:09:36.000 And he was hit by a car, right?

02:09:38.000 What is this, Jamie?

02:09:39.000 What is that?

02:09:40.000 New Area 51 photographs taken by private pilot?

02:09:43.000 Oh, that was pretty cool.

02:09:43.000 Yeah, they flew over Papoose Lake.

02:09:45.000 Are you allowed to do that?

02:09:47.000 No.

02:09:47.000 You can get clearance to get by it and have a really good camera.

02:09:50.000 But here's what's so funny.

02:09:52.000 It's like people that aren't convinced will never be convinced.

02:09:54.000 They said, oh, there's new photos of Papoose Lake and we don't see an installation.

02:09:59.000 And I'm like, oh, you don't see an installation that was built to not be seen from the air Okay. 0.97

02:10:07.000 I mean, if people don't want to follow this shit or understand it, they're always going to see whatever they want to see. 0.97

02:10:15.000 Are you following me? 0.99

02:10:16.000 Yeah.

02:10:16.000 Okay.

02:10:17.000 I was in a vacuum there with everybody looking at me blankly.

02:10:19.000 I was like, well, you're having an argument with someone who's not there.

02:10:22.000 Oh, okay.

02:10:22.000 You're like arguing with someone.

02:10:24.000 So you're not seeing it.

02:10:25.000 No one's here.

02:10:26.000 Yeah, my point is it's just I can't bang my head against the wall because I don't know what the real truth is.

02:10:32.000 George, was it a struggle to talk about UFOs and yet maintain a serious career as an investigative journalist?

02:10:41.000 Very much so.

02:10:42.000 You know, I had the support of my news director and the station at the time.

02:10:47.000 And, you know, they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience.

02:10:50.000 It was big.

02:10:51.000 And then it expanded and went all over the world.

02:10:53.000 But I think they worried that I was going too far down the rabbit hole.

02:10:56.000 So I had to be careful.

02:10:58.000 I mean, for me, it is not my religion.

02:10:59.000 I'm not chasing this because I've got a hole in my heart where God should be.

02:11:03.000 It's a story.

02:11:04.000 It's always been a story.

02:11:05.000 And so I try to be careful and not commit to a position.

02:11:09.000 It's space aliens.

02:11:10.000 It's interdimensionals.

02:11:11.000 I'm following what evidence there is.

02:11:14.000 I'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out.

02:11:17.000 And over the years, you know, I have been all over the world to chase this down.

02:11:22.000 In the end, a lot of the answers of the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded.

02:11:29.000 All that expertise came right into my backyard.

02:11:32.000 And Harry Reid being the sponsor to the program that became ATIP. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and to gain their trust.

02:11:42.000 And it's tricky. 0.94

02:11:43.000 You know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous.

02:11:48.000 Whenever I do a story not related to UFOs, it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that, and people are mad at me, which happens often, they bring up UFOs.

02:12:00.000 That's the UFO guy.

02:12:01.000 How serious can it be?

02:12:02.000 Yeah, that's what I was going to get to.

02:12:04.000 But I've had the support of my employer, and I'm thankful for that.

02:12:07.000 And, you know, I get to be a little more creative on Coast to Coast because it's a four-hour show, and you can let people go.

02:12:14.000 I don't have to be judgmental about it.

02:12:17.000 When I'm reporting, as a regular news story, I have to be more careful about what I include in it.

02:12:21.000 But, yeah, we're putting all that stuff up, and it's been a fun ride.

02:12:25.000 And there's a lot of times I just want to walk away from it, like you.

02:12:27.000 I get disgusted by it.

02:12:29.000 Yeah.

02:12:29.000 Have you noticed in your world, the world of investigative journalism, that attitudes and opinions have changed about UFOs?

02:12:37.000 Very much so.

02:12:38.000 I think, you know, I'll go back to the New York Times story that changed so much.

02:12:42.000 So I had known that stuff, and when I found out they were going to do it, I had known about the program that was underway.

02:12:48.000 I said, hey, why don't I get to do this?

02:12:51.000 Because I've known about all this time.

02:12:53.000 I've kept quiet about it because that was my agreement.

02:12:55.000 I'm going to do this story.

02:12:57.000 They said, no, this is Bigelow, Senator Reid, and Tom DeLonge had asked me, don't do that.

02:13:02.000 If you do it, the New York Times said they'll back out.

02:13:05.000 And so I sort of, I don't want to say took one for the team, but I realized I'm not the New York Times.

02:13:10.000 They were gently letting me know I'm the UFO reporter.

02:13:13.000 If I do it, nobody's going to pay attention to it.

02:13:15.000 If the New York Times does it, then everybody does pay attention to it.

02:13:18.000 And they did.

02:13:19.000 They did that story.

02:13:20.000 Then the Washington Post and Politico, all the new networks did stories of press all over the world.

02:13:26.000 It is now acceptable for reporters to dig into it.

02:13:30.000 You have to be careful.

02:13:32.000 There are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you, but there is information that can be pursued by reporters, and I think that's made all the difference.

02:13:41.000 It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it, and our world is different than it was two and a half years ago.

02:13:48.000 Yeah, I think the people that were in control of this stuff also in the 60s and 70s, they're not around anymore.

02:13:54.000 So you're dealing with now people that are in government, involved in the military, that grew up in the age of the internet.

02:14:02.000 And they have a different perspective about these subjects.

02:14:07.000 The free flow of information.

02:14:09.000 They see everything is there.

02:14:10.000 Why is anything kept secret?

02:14:12.000 Well, I think younger people just have a different perception about UFOs in general.

02:14:16.000 I mean, I think that you're not dealing with the post-1947 people that were talking about it back in the day.

02:14:26.000 And also the attitude of the way the military and the government interface with the public. 0.68

02:14:32.000 They could come up with the most ridiculous deception.

02:14:35.000 The Roswell case is one of my favorite ones.

02:14:37.000 I used to have a bit about it.

02:14:39.000 But how crazy it is that they say, and they print it in the paper, we've recovered a down saucer.

02:14:45.000 And then the next day, it's a weather balloon.

02:14:48.000 You don't know the difference between a spacecraft from another dimension or another planet Or a weather balloon that was made in Ohio?

02:14:56.000 Well, the same question now.

02:14:58.000 Dave Fravor doesn't know the difference between a tic-tac and this weird craft and a seagull or something.

02:15:03.000 He won't engage those insane arguments.

02:15:07.000 He just won't do it.

02:15:07.000 He's a fighter pilot.

02:15:08.000 He doesn't give a fuck. 0.99

02:15:09.000 Well, the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there, but it was jamming. 0.99

02:15:18.000 It was doing some sort of active jamming.

02:15:20.000 An act of war.

02:15:22.000 This is the other paper I wanted to tell you about.

02:15:24.000 It does mention aliens.

02:15:26.000 So it's a...

02:15:26.000 It is a recalculation of the...

02:15:30.000 Am I in trouble for having this?

02:15:31.000 No, no, no.

02:15:31.000 They're not classified.

02:15:32.000 It says unclassified.

02:15:33.000 It just hasn't been released.

02:15:34.000 I'm going to run out of this room right now.

02:15:35.000 It just recalculates how likely it is there are alien civilizations in our solar system or our cosmos.

02:15:41.000 So it's about the Fermi paradox?

02:15:43.000 It's the Drake equation.

02:15:45.000 So they had done this years ago about they tried to figure out how many planets are out there, how many are inhabited.

02:15:51.000 This is a reworking of the calculations and Again, I can't read it.

02:15:55.000 I became a journalist.

02:15:56.000 Defense Intelligence Reference Document, an Introduction to the Statistical Drake Equation.

02:16:02.000 So this is something that they created for the Defense Department so that they could get an understanding.

02:16:08.000 Yeah, what the baseline of our information is about all those different topics I told you about.

02:16:14.000 And then this one is, how likely is it that we have galactic neighbors?

02:16:18.000 And how close might they be?

02:16:19.000 Yeah, the key question, how far are they?

02:16:23.000 It comes to an answer.

02:16:24.000 It's like 30 pages into that.

02:16:26.000 But you're the first person outside the program to see it.

02:16:30.000 You better drop those.

02:16:30.000 Are you sure this is okay?

02:16:31.000 Yeah, it's okay.

02:16:32.000 It feels like I'm going to get visited.

02:16:34.000 You're all right.

02:16:35.000 Yeah, well, how far do they think they are?

02:16:37.000 I have to think it up for you.

02:16:40.000 And again, one of the reasons I've become a journalist is so I don't have to do math.

02:16:46.000 That's one of the cool things now that's happening is because of the New York Times article, and really because you had Bob on and Commander Favorite, people are talking about this in the zeitgeist.

02:16:55.000 I've had more people, serious people, come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before.

02:17:03.000 And it includes soccer moms and just people that just... 1.00

02:17:06.000 Just post the documentary?

02:17:09.000 Yes, ever since the Lazar documentary, you know, and people found out that I kept my word to Fravor and didn't tell his story.

02:17:17.000 New York Times told it.

02:17:18.000 I kept all that, you know, people started to trust me with, hey, we can keep his mouth shut if he needs to.

02:17:24.000 I mean, Joe.

02:17:46.000 You know, abduction stories, which I don't get into because it's too crazy for me.

02:17:50.000 But they're reporting sightings, encounters, all UFO stuff.

02:17:54.000 That's why they call me.

02:17:55.000 They don't call me for other stuff, right?

02:17:57.000 But also very serious people.

02:17:59.000 People that have worked or do work within our military and say, I had an encounter.

02:18:05.000 There was an incursion.

02:18:08.000 I know George has dealt with this for 30 years. 0.98

02:18:09.000 It's just new for me that the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that, I got to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit. 0.98

02:18:20.000 Right. 0.87

02:18:21.000 But a good handful of it is powerful stuff.

02:18:22.000 A lot of it is, you know, it's like bait.

02:18:25.000 To discredit us.

02:18:27.000 To discredit you.

02:18:27.000 Is that what you think?

02:18:29.000 Or do you think it's just crazy people?

02:18:30.000 It's crazy people, and some of it might be more organized than that.

02:18:33.000 The reach of your show, Joe, when Bob was on there, I know what happened to Jeremy as a result of it.

02:18:40.000 I get a little bit of the blowback because people are interested in the topic, but it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest, not only in that story, but in others and the general topic.

02:18:51.000 By the way, this paper...

02:18:53.000 It says, with a 75% probability, the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between 1,361 and 3,979 light-years from us.

02:19:05.000 So there you go.

02:19:06.000 Wow. 0.99

02:19:07.000 And the way they travel, that ain't shit. 0.99

02:19:09.000 No. 0.99

02:19:10.000 That's lunchtime.

02:19:11.000 And that's such the important part of it.

02:19:12.000 Remember we were talking about non-reactionary propulsion systems?

02:19:16.000 Mm-hmm.

02:19:16.000 Everybody, like 10 years ago, everybody's like, okay, the universe is vast.

02:19:19.000 There's probably intelligent life forms out in the solar systems in the universe, but they ain't coming here.

02:19:25.000 But then you look at what Bob said and how gravity wave amplification would...

02:19:29.000 And then you look at the testimony of Commander Fravor and how those craft moves.

02:19:33.000 You see how the gimbal moves.

02:19:35.000 And then you start thinking, well, distance doesn't matter anymore.

02:19:38.000 That's just us saying, physicists, we're right.

02:19:41.000 Well, hold on.

02:19:42.000 Physics has changed as our understanding has changed.

02:19:45.000 So now we're looking at a propulsion system where distance doesn't matter.

02:19:50.000 Man, that brings us all much fucking closer together if any of this is true.

02:19:54.000 Yeah, if any of this is true.

02:19:56.000 I mean, there was a lot of naysayers back in the day that were quote-unquote UFO experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled here, like Stanton Friedman.

02:20:05.000 He had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts, like very fast travel in short bursts that you could tolerate.

02:20:12.000 And he didn't believe in Bob Lazar, too, but I always felt like there was some weirdness there. 1.00

02:20:19.000 UFO guys and researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them is full of shit. 1.00

02:20:28.000 And that's what I felt like with Stanton. 1.00

02:20:30.000 When Stanton would discredit Bob's education pass and all these different things, I'd be like, yeah, but I don't know.

02:20:37.000 I don't think you know him.

02:20:38.000 I don't think you talk to him.

02:20:39.000 I don't think you get in the room.

02:20:40.000 Just empty out.

02:20:42.000 Empty out all your predisposed notions of who the guy is and look at it.

02:20:48.000 What if he's telling the truth?

02:20:51.000 Like, what if he's telling the truth?

02:20:52.000 Does that place actually exist?

02:20:53.000 Area S4? Yes.

02:20:54.000 Does he have some weird knowledge of it?

02:20:56.000 Yes.

02:20:56.000 Did he really work at Los Alamos Lab?

02:20:59.000 Yes.

02:21:00.000 Did people who work there remember him?

02:21:02.000 Yes.

02:21:03.000 Does he know how to navigate the building from the inside?

02:21:06.000 Yes. 1.00

02:21:07.000 Was there a fucking article in the newspaper where he built a fucking jet car and it said he was a physicist at Los Alamos Lab? 1.00

02:21:14.000 Yes. 1.00

02:21:14.000 These things are piling up, Stanton. 1.00

02:21:16.000 I wish you were alive.

02:21:17.000 I wish you were alive because he was a really smart guy.

02:21:20.000 He was also obsessed with UFOs. 1.00

02:21:22.000 But again, these UFO experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit. 0.99

02:21:27.000 I had a 20-year dialogue with Stan Friedman and I respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable. 0.99

02:21:37.000 But he had a blind spot about Bob.

02:21:39.000 We had multiple face-to-face conversations and exchanged letters over the years.

02:21:43.000 Did you ever say what if he was telling the truth?

02:21:46.000 Yeah, I have said that to him.

02:21:47.000 And he can't get beyond the college degree stuff.

02:21:52.000 That's the stopping point for him.

02:21:54.000 Did you bring up, like, I'm sure Bob told you the same story he told me about working at Los Alamos Lab and his education at MIT. I did not tell him that story, but it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff.

02:22:07.000 All the things about, how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video?

02:22:14.000 Right, right.

02:22:15.000 Doesn't want to hear that.

02:22:16.000 Why not?

02:22:16.000 Just didn't hear it.

02:22:17.000 Why not?

02:22:18.000 He'd already made up his mind.

02:22:19.000 That's not good.

02:22:19.000 That's not scientific.

02:22:20.000 And I can understand.

02:22:22.000 My emails and correspondences and texts are a dump truck for conspiracy. 0.99

02:22:26.000 Everybody thinks I'm some fucking believer and they can just hit me with fucking 5G COVID stuff. 0.99

02:22:31.000 And I'm like, Jesus Christ. 1.00

02:22:32.000 Christ!

02:22:34.000 So it's people that actually know me, my friends, and George, too.

02:22:37.000 We're like the person that's hardest to convince that your story has validity.

02:22:42.000 We ask for documents, for military background.

02:22:45.000 We vet people.

02:22:46.000 He vetted Lazar.

02:22:48.000 I vetted Lazar.

02:22:49.000 It's not like we're sitting here, oh, we want this to be true.

02:22:51.000 Tell us your story.

02:22:53.000 But do you understand that's why the Skinwalker Ranch thing does nothing for me?

02:22:56.000 I understand.

02:22:57.000 I totally understand.

02:22:59.000 I don't see anything there.

02:23:01.000 I see a dead cow.

02:23:03.000 Yeah.

02:23:04.000 There were PhD scientists on that ranch for 20 years, some part of the time working for the US government, trying to figure it out.

02:23:12.000 They would have experiences.

02:23:13.000 They can't document them.

02:23:15.000 They realize that nobody's going to believe it.

02:23:17.000 It was very frustrating.

02:23:31.000 We're good to go.

02:23:38.000 There's the Tic Tac sitting around.

02:23:40.000 It's been there for a couple of weeks, zipping in and out.

02:23:42.000 We can't quite get a radar bearing on it.

02:23:45.000 And it's sitting there waiting for a freebie to come along.

02:23:47.000 And then it kind of reacts, oh, is there somebody else here?

02:23:50.000 And it zips away.

02:23:52.000 It knew that we were there, given its capabilities.

02:23:56.000 It wanted to be seen.

02:23:58.000 But why?

02:23:59.000 That's the difficult thing, is can you accept...

02:24:02.000 So if this UFO thing is real and there are these intelligent craft and stuff, can we accept that it is aware of us?

02:24:09.000 That it is aware that we have cell phones, that it is aware that we want to monitor it, and if it's highly advanced, wherever it's from, I don't care if it's fucking aliens or, again, North Korea, I don't care who it is, but if they're that advanced, if this technology,

02:24:24.000 if there's any weight to it, which there is, then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them, and that they can...

02:24:33.000 Work from a technologically more advanced standpoint, right?

02:24:36.000 I mean, I have to accept that.

02:24:38.000 Skinwalker, all that, it was hard for me when I started doing the film and working with George on it.

02:24:43.000 It's hard for me.

02:24:44.000 Where's the concrete evidence?

02:24:46.000 I see Commander Fravor.

02:24:47.000 That's concrete evidence.

02:24:48.000 The documents.

02:24:48.000 That's what he first showed me is documents, documents.

02:24:51.000 Great.

02:24:52.000 That's hard evidence.

02:24:53.000 So I know it's hard to accept some of that, but I'm not going to exclude it.

02:24:57.000 Like, I didn't exclude Bob.

02:24:59.000 I wanted to find out the truth.

02:25:00.000 I'm not going to exclude it.

02:25:02.000 Investigate the unknown.

02:25:04.000 So, you know, there might be some scary explanations ultimately that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts and we're in the shower and we're sleeping and they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet,

02:25:21.000 not ours, that we're an agricultural product.

02:25:23.000 That's scary.

02:25:24.000 The other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone, you know?

02:25:27.000 That we're the only life anywhere.

02:25:30.000 That this is the only inhabited planet.

02:25:32.000 Some people believe that.

02:25:33.000 I don't, but that's pretty scary too because you look at how we take care of ourselves and it's not very well.

02:25:41.000 Yeah.

02:25:43.000 The whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking, am I just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense?

02:25:54.000 But then you hear Like, one of the things that Bob told me that was so strange was when we were doing the podcast, he was saying that they think that one of them was really old.

02:26:04.000 It was from an archaeological dig.

02:26:06.000 And I was like, well, why are they leaving spacecrafts around? 0.98

02:26:09.000 Are they leaving spacecrafts around so I could let them figure this shit out? 0.99

02:26:13.000 Yes. 0.99

02:26:14.000 You think that?

02:26:15.000 I think so.

02:26:15.000 Like I said, throwing the cell phone into the monkey cage.

02:26:18.000 Here, help yourself.

02:26:19.000 Knock yourself out.

02:26:20.000 And we see these displays.

02:26:22.000 If they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't.

02:26:24.000 They have stealth capability.

02:26:25.000 We can see them right there and not see them on radar.

02:26:29.000 We can see them on radar, but they're invisible.

02:26:33.000 You can only see them sometimes through thermal.

02:26:35.000 So as our military devices get better at detection, UFO sightings are going up.

02:26:41.000 And it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just flying in— But some of them don't display a thermal heat signature.

02:26:50.000 Absolutely.

02:26:51.000 Do some of them do and some of them don't?

02:26:52.000 Do they display different forms of propulsion?

02:26:56.000 I don't know.

02:26:57.000 Don't know.

02:26:58.000 We'd have to— It seems extremely varied.

02:27:01.000 You know, is that there's anything you can imagine and more.

02:27:03.000 This cop just called me a month ago, and he's not a UFO guy or anything, and he had an encounter, he claims, that was so extraordinarily strange, like non-aerodynamic, something impossible.

02:27:16.000 He saw something impossible.

02:27:19.000 They come in all shapes and forms.

02:27:21.000 It's just that as we look more, we're seeing more, I think, because our technology is increasing and maybe because our awareness also, we're starting to be more curious, our government and our scientists.

02:27:32.000 I think the scientific community should engage this topic.

02:27:35.000 You have stuff to study now.

02:27:37.000 Michio Kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now.

02:27:48.000 That there are craft.

02:27:50.000 Our government's working on it, the Russians are working on it, and the Chinese are working on it.

02:27:54.000 That we know of for sure.

02:27:56.000 That's been told to me directly.

02:27:57.000 Senator Reid had said that was one of the reasons he started the program, because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out.

02:28:06.000 And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it, the Chinese get it before we do. 0.99

02:28:13.000 We're in trouble.

02:28:14.000 Or the aliens come down and smack everybody around.

02:28:17.000 So what do you think, man, after doing three rounds on the UFO stuff?

02:28:24.000 What do you think's up, man?

02:28:25.000 I don't.

02:28:26.000 That's the problem.

02:28:27.000 I don't.

02:28:28.000 I don't.

02:28:29.000 I just sit back and I wait.

02:28:31.000 I think when you look at Fravor's...

02:28:36.000 What Fravor saw clearly...

02:28:41.000 There's evidence.

02:28:42.000 There's not just evidence that it was jamming, tracking.

02:28:47.000 There's them trying to figure out what it is.

02:28:50.000 There's the incredible rate of travel where it can go from 60,000 feet to above the surface in, like, literally a second.

02:28:58.000 And they don't even know how fast it really went because it takes a second for the radar to register.

02:29:03.000 That alone is just bonkers.

02:29:06.000 Like, what is that?

02:29:08.000 Like, what is that and how do you dismiss that?

02:29:10.000 And no sonic booms, as an example.

02:29:12.000 So that would...

02:29:12.000 A transmedium craft is one that goes through space, air, or sea, and it doesn't have the same displacement as you'd normally have.

02:29:20.000 That would be a gravity-propelled craft.

02:29:21.000 No sonic booms, no splashes of water.

02:29:25.000 Yeah, so it's...

02:29:27.000 So I'm just curious where, you know...

02:29:31.000 Before, you've been back and forth on the topic.

02:29:34.000 So has George.

02:29:35.000 So have I. I get so fed up with it sometimes.

02:29:37.000 I'm never going to learn anything. 1.00

02:29:38.000 Everybody's fucking crazy. 0.99

02:29:39.000 Well, there's just so many people out there that have an interest in discussing it, too. 1.00

02:29:43.000 They do these lectures, they tour, and they do these UFO conferences, and they just get together with other bullshit artists, and they make a living. 0.80

02:29:51.000 It does happen. 0.97

02:29:52.000 That's a part of the problem.

02:29:53.000 It's a part of the problem is that there's money to be made in this, and you realize that when you interview these so-called experts.

02:29:59.000 Yeah. 0.93

02:30:00.000 When you sit down and talk to them, a lot of them are just knuckleheads.

02:30:03.000 And they don't respond very well to scrutiny.

02:30:08.000 Luckily, he's a journalist with a day job, and I'm just a filmmaker, not just a UFO researcher.

02:30:15.000 But you're kind of obsessed.

02:30:16.000 Let's be honest.

02:30:17.000 I'm going to be completely honest.

02:30:19.000 I am.

02:30:20.000 How do you not be?

02:30:22.000 How do you not be?

02:30:22.000 It's one of the most compelling subjects that the human race has ever known.

02:30:27.000 Are we alone?

02:30:27.000 And if we're not alone, is something as advanced to us as we are to ants?

02:30:34.000 And that is...

02:30:39.000 Obviously, if you follow the string of evolution, things become more and more complex, and in the case of primates, they become more and more intelligent, more and more capable of manipulating their environment.

02:30:49.000 So if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now, or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw competition as you have here on Earth.

02:30:58.000 I mean, maybe they exist in some sort of a planet with a completely different Ecosphere, a completely different series of metals and different propulsion systems get invented first, long before fire.

02:31:14.000 I mean, maybe they're just messing with some stuff that's just very different than us.

02:31:18.000 Maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroid impacts, and they've had a steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years.

02:31:27.000 I mean, we really don't know.

02:31:29.000 Just think about a civilization that's so much as 100 years older than us.

02:31:33.000 Right, especially now.

02:31:35.000 Think how far we've come in 50 years.

02:31:37.000 I mean, the stuff that 50 years ago, a cell phone might be considered witchcraft, you know?

02:31:42.000 And the rate of change is exponential.

02:31:45.000 Something 100 years or 1,000 years older than us could have technology that's basically magic.

02:31:50.000 And a million years in terms of biological life on Earth is really nothing.

02:31:55.000 It's nothing.

02:31:56.000 We haven't even been alive for a million years.

02:31:58.000 Humans haven't been human for a million years.

02:32:00.000 So just think what goes on a million years from now.

02:32:04.000 The other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien.

02:32:07.000 When you look at it, it's like if you took...

02:32:11.000 Cavemen, or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans, you're seeing this pattern of the heads are getting bigger, the muscles are getting smaller, the body's getting less hairy.

02:32:23.000 Well, if you keep going, what do you get?

02:32:25.000 You get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost non-existent, these like stick bodies, but they still maintain that sort of Iconic primate shape.

02:32:37.000 They're kind of primate-like, where they walk on two legs, they have two arms, they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers, they have heads that have predators' eyes, because the eyes face forward, like ours.

02:32:51.000 Like, are we looking at what always happens to life?

02:32:57.000 I mean, if life exists the way it exists here and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment and then it starts to look like that, where they develop technology, where they don't need brute force anymore,

02:33:15.000 so their bodies slowly but surely shrink and become something that's Just not reliant on a muscle strength, but rather on telekinetic ability, the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts. 0.93

02:33:29.000 That's one of the things that Elon said when he was talking about his neural link, which is, you know, if there's a fucking alien on Earth, it's that guy, right?

02:33:38.000 And he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly Improve your ability to access information. 0.63

02:33:53.000 It will increase your bandwidth of information substantially, and in his words, you'll be able to talk without using words.

02:34:01.000 Now, when you look at aliens, the iconic alien has this slit for a mouth, very little nose, giant eyes, and an enormous head.

02:34:12.000 If we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing, isn't that what we're going to look like? 0.92

02:34:22.000 Maybe those things have weird skin because we realize regular skin kind of sucks. 0.95

02:34:28.000 It gets zits.

02:34:29.000 You get cancer.

02:34:31.000 It's penetrable.

02:34:32.000 They've already figured out a way to make some sort of a...

02:34:35.000 A hybrid of spider silk and human skin that would be bulletproof.

02:34:39.000 I mean, this is something that they've done research on in a lab.

02:34:43.000 I mean, whether or not it actually gets to a human body, you know, who knows.

02:34:46.000 But when you look at those things, when you think of that iconic alien shape, it does remind us, or it reminds us of the process of evolution.

02:34:58.000 It looks like what we could be.

02:35:00.000 It causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers.

02:35:04.000 That's us in the future coming back to see when we screwed up planet Earth or something like that.

02:35:08.000 It could be or it just could be their life that's gone further than where we are and they know the process and that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics.

02:35:20.000 They're like, well, they're going to get there anyway.

02:35:22.000 Let's just step in and jack up the process.

02:35:25.000 Maybe we don't have a million years.

02:35:27.000 Maybe because of where we live in terms of our galaxy.

02:35:30.000 I mean, this is a legitimate shooting gallery. 0.99

02:35:32.000 There's like some stupid number, like 900,000 near-earth objects that could end us. 0.99

02:35:38.000 They're injecting miracle growing. 0.99

02:35:41.000 Maybe they're looking at this and like, hey, we got to give these people steroids.

02:35:46.000 They're not growing quick enough.

02:35:48.000 Let's get in there and get it so that they can legitimately get to a point before they get hit.

02:35:55.000 And we've been hit many times while we're going through this process.

02:36:00.000 But get to a point where we can accelerate their evolution.

02:36:06.000 I mean, I don't know.

02:36:07.000 I mean, it sounds crazy, but so do we.

02:36:10.000 Bullets sound crazy.

02:36:12.000 You know, cars sound crazy.

02:36:14.000 Electric cars sound crazier.

02:36:16.000 It's okay to talk about crazy things, right?

02:36:18.000 Yeah, for sure.

02:36:20.000 A couple of months ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe.

02:36:27.000 And I don't know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that, I don't know if they're theorizing that time Operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe.

02:36:38.000 Now, get your head around that one.

02:36:39.000 It's Benjamin Buttons.

02:36:41.000 Go back in time, you become a baby.

02:36:43.000 Dark, that's a great show on Netflix.

02:36:45.000 Oh, is it?

02:36:45.000 I saw the image for it when I was scrolling the other day.

02:36:50.000 Straight up, it's like in a different language, but they translate so the lips move a little differently.

02:36:54.000 But man, it is deep.

02:36:56.000 You have to have, like, take notes as you watch.

02:36:58.000 It's about the Mobius loop of time with alternate dimensions. 0.90

02:37:00.000 Blew me the fuck away.

02:37:02.000 It's great. 0.95

02:37:03.000 It's great. 0.92

02:37:05.000 Yeah, it is the ultimate who knows question, but goddamn, I wish more people from S4 would come forth. 1.00

02:37:11.000 If Bob really did work with all those people and they really were briefed the same way he was, if we could get more of those people to talk, that would be utterly fascinating. 0.85

02:37:21.000 Well, your show has a big reach, so maybe this time somebody will hear it and come forward.

02:37:27.000 Did anybody ever reach out to you that claimed to also have worked with Bob at S4? A bunch, yeah.

02:37:33.000 Did you verify any of them?

02:37:34.000 No, they could not be verified, and in fact, I think they were lying to me. 1.00

02:37:38.000 And Bob shoots people down all the time, so that guy's fucking standing on UFO stage lying, bullshit. 0.99

02:37:43.000 I mean, you know, no, he hasn't even. 0.99

02:37:45.000 He was hoping one other employee would.

02:37:48.000 However...

02:37:49.000 I have had people that work at Area 51 confirm parts of Bob's story.

02:37:55.000 One in particular saw him coming off the – or he says he saw him coming off the Janet flights.

02:38:01.000 I said, will you go on record with me that you met Bob there on the tarmac?

02:38:06.000 No.

02:38:07.000 Why?

02:38:08.000 Everything we did there was confidential.

02:38:12.000 We couldn't even tell our wives, why would I go on record with you?

02:38:15.000 And if he did go on record, he'd probably get harassed or arrested or...

02:38:20.000 He can't even tell you what he ate for lunch out there.

02:38:24.000 And one of the guys I was real excited to talk with just recently passed away.

02:38:27.000 He actually started the bar that was at Area 51. So everybody told the bartender stuff.

02:38:32.000 He started it as a flower fund because no one would send flowers to wives when people died out there.

02:38:38.000 But my point is people have come forward to George.

02:38:41.000 To me, a lot of people are lying.

02:38:44.000 But it adds up over time, man.

02:38:46.000 I got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story who had worked out at Area 51 that I confirmed were out there.

02:38:54.000 There were security people who had seen a disc under a tarp in a hangar.

02:39:01.000 Different people had worked there at different times, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, who had little pieces of the story, not to confirm Bob.

02:39:07.000 And then there was one that I pursued.

02:39:09.000 I don't know if you want to keep going on this, but I pursued this guy.

02:39:13.000 I was trying to find in the early 90s people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there, and I found one.

02:39:20.000 And he had been active in the nuclear weapons program.

02:39:23.000 He had worked for EG&G. EG&G had the contract to manage Area 51 from the beginning all the way through the first 30 or 40 years of it.

02:39:31.000 And so I started basically stalking the guy.

02:39:35.000 One of his sons was a state senator, and he had told me, he confided to me, that you've got to ask my dad about UFOs and aliens.

02:39:42.000 And another son had been an FBI agent.

02:39:45.000 So I stalked the guy, introduced myself.

02:39:47.000 There were a couple of public events where I would just show up, and he finally got confident enough in me to invite me to his home.

02:39:55.000 And he gets out these scrapbooks, and he's showing me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program.

02:40:02.000 And I'm watching and taking notes and stuff.

02:40:04.000 And suddenly he closes the book and he goes, you're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons, are you?

02:40:09.000 I said, no, not really.

02:40:10.000 And his wife walks in and she says, oh, you're not going to tell him that stuff, are you?

02:40:15.000 And then he started telling me.

02:40:16.000 And then over the course of two years, I would meet with him, have a cup of coffee somewhere.

02:40:21.000 I couldn't take notes.

02:40:22.000 I couldn't record anything.

02:40:24.000 But he told me the story.

02:40:25.000 Now, this guy actually is someone that you've had reference to on your show.

02:40:29.000 Remember Annie Jacobson, her book about Area 51?

02:40:31.000 Yeah.

02:40:32.000 Well, it's the same guy.

02:40:33.000 But the story that he told me was different than what he told her.

02:40:36.000 He said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there.

02:40:41.000 That I could not go public with this until after he died.

02:40:44.000 That they had craft.

02:40:46.000 That it was in a special spot.

02:40:49.000 Originally it was at Indian Springs, which is now Creech Air Force Base.

02:40:52.000 And then it was moved to Area 51 when 51 became active.

02:40:56.000 And that it was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff.

02:40:59.000 They didn't know where it was from.

02:41:00.000 They didn't know how we obtained it.

02:41:02.000 He said this thing was alive.

02:41:04.000 And that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died I could have it.

02:41:14.000 Well, suddenly two or three years later he totally changes his story.

02:41:19.000 What had happened was there was a congressional investigator.

02:41:22.000 His name was Richard D'Amato, and he worked for Senator Robert Byrd.

02:41:25.000 And he oversaw black budget projects.

02:41:28.000 And he got onto this UFO story from Whitley Strieber.

02:41:31.000 And so he was assigned, find out what the deal is.

02:41:34.000 So he went around the country, talked to different researchers, and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51 and Lazar.

02:41:41.000 So I told him a story, and I told him about this guy.

02:41:43.000 And he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it.

02:41:50.000 And they had multiple conversations, and they went to the founders of EG&G, the company, and it became a dead end.

02:41:57.000 But after that congressional inquiry, this guy completely changed his tune.

02:42:01.000 So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Annie Jacobson, that what crashed at Roswell was a Russian technology, Nazi technology, flown by the Russians, containing little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mengele.

02:42:18.000 Completely ridiculous, you know, story.

02:42:22.000 But I think he got scared. 0.81

02:42:23.000 He was a real guy in a real position to know and had shared with his family some of this information.

02:42:30.000 I think the story that he told me was legit.

02:42:34.000 But if he made the tape, which I think he did, I didn't get it. 0.98

02:42:37.000 How much time has been wasted talking about bullshit in this subject? 0.99

02:42:44.000 Centuries. 1.00

02:42:45.000 Centuries.

02:42:46.000 That's part of the problem, isn't it? 1.00

02:42:48.000 People just make shit up. 1.00

02:42:50.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:42:50.000 And the more fanciful and ridiculous, the better, unfortunately. 1.00

02:42:54.000 People pay more to hear that and consume it. 0.88

02:42:58.000 I had an operation one time after the Lazar thing, somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens.

02:43:07.000 And I'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors.

02:43:11.000 Hey, you got to check this guy out, doctor, I'll just say X. He was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night.

02:43:17.000 I think he has something to do with aliens.

02:43:20.000 From out of the blue, then suddenly I am at a planetarium event, and I'm going to speak about UFOs at some event at this community college, and the guy shows up in a men's room.

02:43:31.000 Hey, my name is Dr. X, standing there at the urinal.

02:43:35.000 You're not doing a story about me, are you?

02:43:37.000 So, no.

02:43:37.000 Who are you?

02:43:38.000 What?

02:43:39.000 This was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there.

02:43:43.000 And it went on for a couple of years. 0.99

02:43:45.000 And of course it was complete bullshit. 0.97

02:43:47.000 When I finally did dig into his background, I was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life. 0.99

02:43:53.000 And it was just like a fantasy role-playing thing.

02:43:55.000 At least I hope it was.

02:43:57.000 So it's really hard to find credible people. 0.99

02:43:59.000 I'm super lucky to have George as a mentor because when I go left and I should be going right, he's like, I've already gone left a decade ago, idiot. 0.99

02:44:07.000 Check this out. 0.99

02:44:08.000 But I don't think a lot of people have somebody like George who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path. 0.98

02:44:17.000 So you're right. 0.95

02:44:18.000 This field of research or whatever, it's filled with curiosity.

02:44:22.000 That's the good thing.

02:44:24.000 Human desire.

02:44:25.000 Everybody in the world has a UFO story and knows somebody else who does.

02:44:28.000 So it's a common link between us all. 0.99

02:44:30.000 But it is filled with charlatans, kooks, freaks and schizophrenics. 0.99

02:44:33.000 Sure you could say that. 0.97

02:44:34.000 Mainly it's filled with good intended people who are curious too.

02:44:37.000 But having people like George over 35 years, you know, not make a major mistake, report the news, break stories open.

02:44:47.000 I'm grateful for that because it makes my job a lot easier. 0.76

02:44:50.000 I can filter the bullshit much faster. 1.00

02:44:52.000 So I'd say, yes, it sucks. 0.99

02:44:54.000 There's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field, but mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended. 0.96

02:44:59.000 I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years.

02:45:01.000 I mean, not only the information coming out of the government, because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people who are now interested.

02:45:10.000 Because of your show, because of what's happened since the New York Times story, there's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it.

02:45:21.000 I'm glad to see that.

02:45:25.000 There's some new energy in it.

02:45:27.000 And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday.

02:45:32.000 Well, as preposterous as we would like, if we want to sleep well at night, we'd like to pretend that it's impossible, it doesn't make any sense.

02:45:40.000 Just when you look up, you look up, you see infinity.

02:45:45.000 You see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy.

02:45:50.000 And this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

02:45:54.000 Of course there's something out there.

02:45:55.000 It's really just of course.

02:45:57.000 It's not if.

02:45:59.000 It's not do you think.

02:46:01.000 It's of course.

02:46:02.000 Of course. 0.98

02:46:03.000 There's no fucking way there's not. 0.75

02:46:05.000 Whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos. 0.89

02:46:17.000 The real question is, can they come here?

02:46:19.000 And the real question is, if they have come here, where, where from, and how?

02:46:26.000 And how much interest do they have in us?

02:46:29.000 And how long have they been paying attention to us?

02:46:31.000 And how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that?

02:46:35.000 Like, you know, I mean, everybody shit all over Zechariah Sitchin's interpretations of the Sumerian text, but what if he's right?

02:46:41.000 What if the Anunnaki really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate DNA to create people? 1.00

02:46:50.000 And when you see those ancient Sumerian clay tablets that were created where you see a large god-like creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap in this tiny thing,

02:47:07.000 And the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the sun in the center and all.

02:47:14.000 And you realize this was made 6,000 years ago?

02:47:17.000 Like, what is that?

02:47:19.000 Like, as much as people love to mock his books...

02:47:24.000 What is that?

02:47:26.000 Like, what are these things?

02:47:28.000 What is this?

02:47:29.000 I mean, obviously, we lost some technologies because, I mean, I'm not an architect, but the stones that are pressed together, almost like they're molded all around the world in these, like, pyramid structures and walls.

02:47:39.000 You know, it's my understanding that we cannot create that now today as such perfection.

02:47:47.000 That's incredible if that's true.

02:47:49.000 Is there a technology that we have figured out and then lost and we're just in a cycle of that?

02:47:54.000 Or was there intervention?

02:47:55.000 Well, it's most likely there's been some catastrophes that set humanity back.

02:48:01.000 There's a lot of evidence that points to that.

02:48:03.000 There's a lot of evidence that points to this period.

02:48:05.000 I mean, Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that.

02:48:09.000 On this podcast, if you go back and listen to those episodes, there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteors hitting Earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 years ago.

02:48:22.000 And that is also when you go to this period of construction.

02:48:29.000 There's things that look like they could be older, that are built differently, particularly like in Egypt and a lot of other parts of the world.

02:48:36.000 And then you find this layer of...

02:48:39.000 What's it called?

02:48:40.000 Tritonite? 0.70

02:48:40.000 Trinitite? 0.70

02:48:41.000 What is it?

02:48:42.000 Trinitite.

02:48:43.000 This nuclear glass.

02:48:44.000 They find that stuff all over when they do core samples.

02:48:47.000 And it's always around 12,000 years.

02:48:49.000 And then the...

02:48:52.000 Almost instant changing of the Ice Age, the floods that followed.

02:48:57.000 I mean, all the stuff that's detailed in the Bible, like the floods in Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts and that these impacts happened and radically changed the climate, killed an enormous amount of people, probably set technology back thousands of years.

02:49:15.000 And then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot.

02:49:19.000 Could there have been survivors, a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us?

02:49:25.000 It's a breakaway civilization.

02:49:27.000 Also an interesting question that a lot of people have explored.

02:49:30.000 I don't know.

02:49:31.000 Yeah, who knows? 0.99

02:49:32.000 It's one of those, again, time-wasting motherfuckers where you could go down the rabbit hole to the end of time. 0.98

02:49:40.000 You know, it's central human kind of questions. 0.99

02:49:43.000 Where are we on the food chain?

02:49:44.000 Why are we here?

02:49:46.000 What's the reason for this?

02:49:48.000 And what is our reaction going to be if something visits?

02:49:50.000 I mean, if something does really hover over the – if Trump wins the re-election and they're like, enough!

02:50:00.000 Some gigantic, you know, city-sized UFO hovers over the White House, and we realize, like, oh, okay.

02:50:07.000 I know.

02:50:08.000 People say, we're ready.

02:50:09.000 We want to know.

02:50:09.000 We're ready.

02:50:10.000 We can handle it.

02:50:11.000 Look at how they're handling COVID, you know?

02:50:14.000 Freaked out people are over this.

02:50:15.000 We're not ready for anything.

02:50:16.000 Maybe if I saw that, what you're describing, I'd love to see a mothership.

02:50:20.000 You know, if I ever saw something like that, like Val Kilmer in that movie, The Roller Rink, if I ever saw that, I'd probably just be like, cool.

02:50:28.000 Job's done. 1.00

02:50:29.000 The fuck you would? 0.99

02:50:31.000 You'd be like, we gotta get a camera crew out there immediately. 1.00

02:50:35.000 You'd call Netflix.

02:50:36.000 I got something.

02:50:37.000 You'd be driving there with your window rolled down, screaming out the window.

02:50:41.000 I'd just love to see it, man.

02:50:42.000 Honestly, I think it would freak me out more than anything. 0.99

02:50:44.000 It's like, oh shit. 0.95

02:50:45.000 It's probably different seeing it than hearing all these stories from people, which I'm open to. 0.99

02:50:50.000 Everybody's contacting.

02:50:51.000 That's fine.

02:50:52.000 But seeing it yourself, yeah, I don't know how I would react, but maybe I would just be like, cool.

02:50:57.000 It would be like you're on drugs, I think.

02:50:59.000 I think it would be like you're on psychedelic drugs.

02:51:01.000 I think seeing it would shift your perception so radically.

02:51:05.000 I bet your brain would overload.

02:51:08.000 I bet it would be really hard to wrap your head around just seeing it.

02:51:12.000 Qualified reporters, you know, like policemen, this is one I keep bringing up, this guy, man, his mind, when he saw this impossible thing, and I believe him, he did see what he said.

02:51:23.000 He tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him, but he struggles because it was so odd, the craft.

02:51:30.000 It was just so odd.

02:51:31.000 So, I don't know.

02:51:32.000 If you ever see one, let me know, though, because...

02:51:34.000 Oh, I'll let everybody know.

02:51:35.000 Believe me.

02:51:36.000 You would, yeah.

02:51:36.000 I would.

02:51:37.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:51:37.000 Yeah, I hadn't seen shit. 0.99

02:51:39.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.98

02:51:40.000 I'm like the Inspector Crusoe in my back.

02:51:42.000 He'll probably see it before us, but...

02:51:44.000 Maybe.

02:51:45.000 Well, it would be really interesting.

02:51:46.000 They're like, George, you've been looking for a long time.

02:51:48.000 We'd like to talk to you.

02:51:50.000 I've wondered, you know, what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are, if somebody were to say, all right, we're going to show you.

02:51:58.000 We're going to open the hangar doors.

02:51:59.000 You can go in and see the sport model that Lazar touched.

02:52:02.000 You can never report on it again.

02:52:04.000 Would you take that offer?

02:52:07.000 Probably.

02:52:07.000 Yeah, I think I would too.

02:52:08.000 I'd shut my mouth.

02:52:09.000 I just wouldn't want to see it.

02:52:11.000 I mean, selfishly.

02:52:12.000 And I'm admitting this. 1.00

02:52:14.000 Because you ain't going to find out if I say no, fuckers. 1.00

02:52:17.000 If I say no, I have to tell everybody. 0.99

02:52:19.000 Well, then they're not going to show me anyway.

02:52:20.000 And if I do show it and I tell people, they're not going to show me anything else.

02:52:26.000 Yeah, it's a hard one.

02:52:28.000 Do you have family members that you trust, you know, somebody that you trust that has reported something like that to you?

02:52:34.000 No.

02:52:34.000 No?

02:52:35.000 No.

02:52:36.000 Nothing I could think of.

02:52:37.000 Not like a good friend, you know.

02:52:40.000 I'm trying to remember.

02:52:44.000 No one, nothing, nothing where, you know, there's things that people could get wrong.

02:52:49.000 You know, there's experimental aircrafts.

02:52:52.000 Like, I remember the first time I saw a stealth bomber was after September 11th.

02:52:56.000 We were working out in Palmdale doing Fear Factor, and that's near Edwards Air Force Base.

02:53:01.000 And I saw one of those things fly by. 0.99

02:53:03.000 I was like, holy shit, it's the fucking, it's the Jedi's or something. 0.99

02:53:08.000 I mean, it just looked like... 1.00

02:53:10.000 It looked like stormtroopers.

02:53:11.000 Like, it didn't look like something from this world.

02:53:14.000 When you see that, have you seen a stealth flight?

02:53:16.000 It's crazy, man.

02:53:17.000 You look at one of those things like, that's a UFO. Like, I felt like we were in some sort of strange movie, a Star Wars movie.

02:53:24.000 It was wild seeing that thing fly across the sky.

02:53:27.000 I was like, wow!

02:53:29.000 But I knew what it was, you know?

02:53:32.000 I think if I really saw an actual UFO, I bet your brain would play all kinds of tricks on you in terms of perception and trying to interpret it, especially if it was a very quick thing.

02:53:43.000 It was like...

02:53:45.000 You would roll that through your memory. 1.00

02:53:47.000 Your memory would fuck with you all kinds of different ways. 0.97

02:53:49.000 You would have all kinds of weird, distorted ideas of what you saw and how you saw it, what it exactly looked like. 0.95

02:53:56.000 It would be so hard to get a super accurate, recallable memory of what that thing is.

02:54:03.000 Some of the most interesting UFO cases are where high strangeness is mixed in.

02:54:07.000 So it's not only seeing the craft, but then a lot of really weird peripheral stuff, like you're on mushrooms or something.

02:54:14.000 Goblins, like in a shooting gallery, the Hopkinsville case, or other kinds of strange creatures and phenomena.

02:54:21.000 Maybe it comes with the territory.

02:54:24.000 Here's what I noticed.

02:54:25.000 Someone will call me and they say, I don't want to be known.

02:54:27.000 I just want to tell somebody, you seem accessible.

02:54:30.000 Let me tell you my story.

02:54:32.000 Don't report on it.

02:54:33.000 Okay, cool.

02:54:33.000 Got it.

02:54:34.000 They'll tell me they saw a UFO, like a disc or something big, not like a ball of light, something big.

02:54:41.000 And I'll be like, okay, cool.

02:54:42.000 Is that it?

02:54:43.000 Is that where your story ends?

02:54:44.000 And almost every time, there's something much more personal, much more strange that occurred almost every time.

02:54:54.000 So you have to imagine people are okay with reporting UFOs to you or whatever.

02:54:58.000 They can say, I saw what I think of a UFO. But a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable.

02:55:05.000 Time distortions, creatures, beings...

02:55:09.000 So I don't know, man, if any of that's true, you know, if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers, this sort of thing, then it gets more complicated.

02:55:19.000 And on that note, gentlemen, we've passed the three-hour mark, believe it or not. 0.97

02:55:23.000 Holy shit. 0.99

02:55:23.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:55:24.000 Thanks for having me, Joe.

02:55:25.000 My pleasure.

02:55:26.000 Thank you for everything you've done over all the years.

02:55:28.000 You've made a gigantic impact on me and my perceptions of this whole phenomenon, and I think in the UFO community at large.

02:55:37.000 And thank you also, Jeremy, for your documentaries have brought me around.

02:55:41.000 Thanks, Joe.

02:55:42.000 That's awesome, man.

02:55:43.000 Thank you.

02:55:43.000 All right.

02:55:43.000 Well, thank you, everybody.

02:55:44.000 Bye.

The Joe Rogan Experience - July 17, 2020

Joe Rogan Experience #1510 - George Knapp & Jeremy Corbell

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