The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1574 - Jacques Vallee & James Fox

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:15.000 Gentlemen, James, Jacques, welcome.

00:00:17.000 Thanks for being here.

00:00:18.000 We'll explain what this is all about, because on the new Spotify podcast, we don't really have an intro the same way the old ones did.

00:00:26.000 James, you produced a phenomenal documentary on the phenomenon, on what's going on with UFOs, and I just sent you...

00:00:34.000 An article that my friend Sagar sent me today about a photograph, a very clear photograph that they've taken of this triangular UFO. So there's something that we'll be talking about in a little bit.

00:00:49.000 Jacques Vallée, you have been studying this most of your life.

00:00:53.000 Too long.

00:00:54.000 Too long.

00:00:55.000 We discussed it last night at dinner.

00:00:58.000 That your interest in this came from an experience that you actually had as a child.

00:01:03.000 You actually saw a UFO. As a teenager, with two other witnesses, one of the witnesses was half a mile away with binoculars, so I'm pretty sure that that object was real, and it was a classic disk,

00:01:20.000 middle of the afternoon, clear sky, absolutely clear.

00:01:24.000 At the time, I became convinced that it might be A prototype of something that would be coming out later and, you know, we're here many years later and we still don't have anything like that.

00:01:39.000 It was just hovering and it was there.

00:01:42.000 And you've been studying this for so long, and this is something you guys talked about in the film, that you were actually the character that the French UFO researcher in Close Encounters of the Third Kind was modeled after.

00:01:54.000 The Steven Spielberg film.

00:01:56.000 Spielberg was intrigued with the idea of a character that was not quite as weird as, you know, the ETs, but was a lot weirder than, you know, the people on the ground in the U.S. trying to make sense of this in the military and so on.

00:02:12.000 So he needed this intermediate character.

00:02:15.000 He thought, you know, a Frenchman was the right thing to do. 1.00

00:02:20.000 And so did you talk to him about the film?

00:02:22.000 Did you talk to him about when he was putting it together?

00:02:25.000 Yeah.

00:02:28.000 Journalists put us together when about halfway through the final shooting of the film.

00:02:37.000 And there were gaps in the movie at that point.

00:02:42.000 So we had lunch twice together and it was a lot of fun.

00:02:48.000 At the time, he was looking for a transition between the time when they know the big thing is coming, the mothership is coming, and they don't know where.

00:03:00.000 And the mothership is sending signals, but they can't decipher it.

00:03:04.000 The signals.

00:03:06.000 And he said, you know, he had spent the morning at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and he said he couldn't make any sense of all the mathematics they had.

00:03:16.000 And I said, well, maybe you could have, you know, two screens that give you an angle and the angle tells you where the thing is.

00:03:25.000 And he said, no, that's too complicated, you know, and takes too long.

00:03:30.000 It's got to be just a few minutes in the film.

00:03:33.000 And then I thought of a photograph that was on the desk of Dr. Hynek, you know, Dr. J. Hynek, who was the Air Force consultant on UFOs at the time, and I was working with him, building databases and so on.

00:03:47.000 And on that photograph, there were three guys, you know, really well-dressed on ladders around a huge...

00:03:57.000 Sphere of the Earth in the lobby of some building somewhere with pieces of string that they were putting the string over the Earth.

00:04:07.000 And I told Dr. Hynek, I said, Alan, you know, what's the story behind this?

00:04:13.000 And he said, well, when the first Sputnik was launched, you know, October 57, nobody had a computer program to compute an orbit.

00:04:23.000 But they knew where the Sputnik had been seen.

00:04:27.000 Nobody expected the Russians to come up with this, and they needed to know where it was going next. 0.75

00:04:33.000 So the New York Times called the director of Harvard Observatory, And so they got dressed in a hurry,

00:04:51.000 and they were trying to compute the orbit by putting a string around the plane.

00:04:57.000 Around the model of the earth in the lobby of Harvard.

00:05:01.000 And I thought it was so funny.

00:05:03.000 And Spielberg said, that's it?

00:05:05.000 You know, that's it.

00:05:06.000 The general says, come on, you know, the geographer who is the interpreter of the French guy says, well, it looks like it's somewhere in Wyoming, you know, but where in Wyoming?

00:05:21.000 You know, where should we go?

00:05:23.000 And the general says, you mean we've got $10 billion worth of radar and cameras and everything else?

00:05:30.000 Nobody's got a map of Wyoming?

00:05:32.000 And they break into the lobby of the building next door and they come back with this globe.

00:05:38.000 And, you know, they've got the globe and they look at it and get their coordinates.

00:05:44.000 And because it turns out the geographer tells them, you know, those signals, they look like a longitude and a latitude.

00:05:52.000 So they get the point where it's going to be.

00:05:57.000 And that was a piece that was missing in the movie.

00:06:01.000 So I was really proud of that.

00:06:03.000 You know, it was really fun.

00:06:05.000 Also, it's the one funny part in the movie.

00:06:08.000 Yeah, it's a great movie.

00:06:11.000 It is probably the movie that got me most excited about UFOs when I was a kid.

00:06:15.000 And I remember thinking, if UFOs were coming here from another planet, one thing that I remember thinking is, why would they even bother talking to the government?

00:06:23.000 Like, what do they care who the government is?

00:06:25.000 If I was looking at an ant colony, I'm not going to ask the ant colony which one's the elected official that's in charge of all the other ants. 1.00

00:06:34.000 You don't give a shit. 0.99

00:06:35.000 You're just trying to study the ants. 0.99

00:06:36.000 And I felt like if something was coming here from another planet that was so sophisticated it could either travel from another dimension or travel from another galaxy, why would it care who the president is or who the generals are?

00:06:51.000 Not only that, but the witnesses don't talk to the government either.

00:06:55.000 By now the witnesses are tired of being ridiculed by scientists and told that those things don't exist.

00:07:03.000 So they don't talk.

00:07:05.000 So they'll talk to people like you, people like me.

00:07:11.000 Because they trust, you know, they trust me.

00:07:14.000 And in Silicon Valley, you know, you wouldn't believe the number of people who come to me, you know, including CEOs of companies that I've worked with, who tell me about sightings that people in their family have had or sightings they had,

00:07:29.000 including, you know, sightings in Vietnam, for example, and so on, when they were in the military, that have never been reported.

00:07:38.000 And the government isn't getting that.

00:07:41.000 When you first started studying this, James, when you started studying this phenomenon, when you were thinking that you were going to put together this movie, you've done other documentaries on UFOs.

00:07:53.000 What got you into this?

00:07:56.000 So I had a really good friend of mine who was a high school buddy, this guy Rene.

00:08:00.000 We traveled around Europe together after we graduated from high school.

00:08:05.000 And in our early 20s, he told me about this UFO crash in Roswell in New Mexico.

00:08:14.000 And I literally thought at the time, I'm going to have to write this guy off.

00:08:18.000 I've lost my best friend.

00:08:19.000 He's lost his mind.

00:08:21.000 And that was that.

00:08:22.000 And I sort of walked away thinking, God, we've had such a great friendship.

00:08:26.000 I'm so sorry this guy's gone.

00:08:28.000 And I brought it up with a guy that I was mentoring.

00:08:31.000 He was my mentor at a production facility in California.

00:08:36.000 This guy Richard, and he goes, Oh yeah, Roswell?

00:08:39.000 Yeah, that was an alien spaceship that crashed.

00:08:41.000 I mean, the government admitted it.

00:08:42.000 I mean, they put the story out themselves.

00:08:45.000 This guy's with a...

00:08:47.000 The only bomb unit in the world, the 509th, exclusively responsible for the deployment of atomic weapons. 0.93

00:08:53.000 These guys would not mistake an everyday weather balloon for a flying saucer.

00:08:57.000 He goes, that actually happened.

00:08:58.000 And I went, really?

00:09:00.000 So then I started looking into it.

00:09:02.000 Before I knew it, I started making a movie.

00:09:06.000 Wow.

00:09:06.000 So when you heard about Roswell and you've investigated it now and you've gotten into it, what do you think that was?

00:09:16.000 Well, I can only go by the people that were there.

00:09:19.000 And Major Jesse Marcel was one of the first military officers on the scene.

00:09:25.000 He's part of the 509th. 1.00

00:09:26.000 And Major Marcel said the debris was strewn over an extremely large area, and it was material that was not of this earth.

00:09:36.000 and he described the the material was one one chunk in particular was three to four feet long three feet wide light as a feather you could barely feel it in your hands when you carried it but they couldn't destroy it with a blowtorch they couldn't destroy it with this photo you're showing us right now Jamie is the debris that they threw on the floor that was clearly just aluminum foil and sticks and stuff from a weather balloon That's the fake debris.

00:10:03.000 Yeah.

00:10:03.000 Well, there's two stories, right?

00:10:05.000 There was a story that came out the first day that said, we've recovered a crashed UFO. And then there was a story that came out the second day, whoops, it was a weather balloon.

00:10:13.000 And this was after they had taken the wreckage and they flew it to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

00:10:17.000 And it wasn't what you would do with wreckage from a weather balloon.

00:10:22.000 What they'd done is they'd flown it in two separate jets or planes.

00:10:27.000 I don't know if there were any jets back then.

00:10:28.000 Two separate planes to make sure that they had at least some of it.

00:10:32.000 Like if one of them crashed, they at least had some of this stuff.

00:10:36.000 And to this day, there's people that were there that swear that this was something that was from an alien world. 0.97

00:10:44.000 And then you've got all the debunkers and all the other people that swear that it's nonsense and And that people are just making things up, and they get a lot of attention from this, and so they've been telling these stories for decades, and they might even believe it themselves, but it's all bullshit. 0.71

00:11:02.000 Well, my approach to that is, you know, no single case.

00:11:06.000 And I think the scientists are not completely to blame there.

00:11:10.000 No single case can prove either that we're being visited or even that there is a phenomenon here on Earth that we still need to be discovering.

00:11:22.000 I've been trained to look for patterns.

00:11:25.000 You know, my background is in artificial intelligence and Computer science and you look for patterns, whether it's in medicine, in business, you know, in other fields, in physics.

00:11:37.000 And one case, even as good as Roswell is, you know, that doesn't do it.

00:11:43.000 So I've been looking for other cases that can reinforce a pattern and reveal, you know, what is really behind it.

00:11:54.000 Because the idea that it's just E.T. coming here, that doesn't really answer all the questions we have.

00:12:01.000 Well, it seems like there's been so many reports over time, and it's so difficult to find out who's telling the truth and who's not, because many of these are just anecdotal stories. 0.98

00:12:10.000 They're just eyewitness accounts, and we know people are occasionally or quite often full of shit. 0.98

00:12:19.000 It's just a part of people. 0.99

00:12:21.000 They lie and they make things up.

00:12:23.000 I wanted to put the cap on Roswell because what people don't realize is that they announced to the world that they recovered a flying saucer.

00:12:31.000 There had been a whole massive wave in the 40s and late 40s.

00:12:34.000 And this is following the detonation of the first atomic bombs.

00:12:39.000 Yeah, the tests, you know, and then the atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan.

00:12:45.000 Yeah, so we had the Trinity site, 1945, and then there were two bombs dropped, and that was from the Enola Gay, which was stationed at Roswell, New Mexico, in 47 when this incident occurred.

00:12:57.000 They announced and told the truth to the world.

00:12:59.000 That's a fact.

00:13:00.000 They were flying the debris to Wright-Parrison Air Force Base.

00:13:03.000 There was no cover-up.

00:13:05.000 It was all out in the open with a quick stop in Fort Worth.

00:13:08.000 When they got to Fort Worth, they had debris filled in their B-29 bomber.

00:13:14.000 Major Marcel gets off the airplane, and General Roger Ramey, there's a flurry of press activity, and he says, keep your mouth shut, let me handle this.

00:13:23.000 He grabs some debris from an everyday weather balloon, throws it on the floor. 0.96

00:13:26.000 He says, keep your mouth shut.

00:13:28.000 And they pose with DuBose, Colonel DuBose, and with Major Marcel.

00:13:35.000 General Ramey two out of the three people came clean on camera before they died and said that was a fake press conference that was fake debris what we recovered was the real initial story that came out was true it was not of this world now what is the current understanding of what happened to that debris the You know,

00:14:02.000 back in Silicon Valley, there's a group of people who are getting really interested in this because we've got new technology to analyze materials.

00:14:14.000 And we've got materials from a number of similar incidents.

00:14:21.000 Again, what we're looking for, and it's hard to do.

00:14:26.000 It's only now that we've really got equipment, scientific equipment, that can really look at this.

00:14:34.000 The characteristics of...

00:14:38.000 I mean, materials are the same throughout the universe.

00:14:41.000 I mean, iron from Mars is just like iron from, you know, from the Earth.

00:14:46.000 The isotopes would be the same ones.

00:14:50.000 The isotopes are the components that define the orbits of the atom and what goes into the nucleus of the atom.

00:15:01.000 They would be the same ones in outer space than they are on the Earth.

00:15:09.000 What could change would be if somebody was altering artificially the ratio of the isotopes within the elements.

00:15:18.000 So it gets pretty complicated.

00:15:21.000 We're doing a survey of all the samples that we have from a number of crashes like Roswell.

00:15:31.000 Roswell was not unique.

00:15:33.000 It was not unique in New Mexico, and now we have samples from Europe, we have samples from South America.

00:15:41.000 There are a number of people who have started to look at that.

00:15:45.000 There were publications by a professor from Stanford, Professor Sturrock, 30 years ago, about material recovered from Brazil, where, again, the isotopes were measured.

00:15:58.000 I'm the guy who, the French volunteered to measure the isotope ratios, and I carried that, you know, that precious little sample to Paris to get it to the people who were doing the experiments.

00:16:14.000 The jury is still out.

00:16:16.000 Obviously, somebody could take, you know, common elements, refine the isotopes and put them back together.

00:16:26.000 Of course, that was done for the atom bomb, you know, between different isotopes of uranium, you know, and you have to differentiate between, you know, what goes into really making the bomb.

00:16:43.000 And now you can buy for medicine, for example, you can buy radioisotopes in small quantities, but they cost, you know, an enormous amount for a few grams.

00:16:54.000 So if we find that some of those samples have been altered, that's a revolution, because it means that there is somebody somewhere, either on Earth or off planet, who has the technology to do that for a particular purpose.

00:17:10.000 If we find that, that's a revolution.

00:17:13.000 But did they find that with Roswell?

00:17:16.000 Is there any record of what happened with the wreckage?

00:17:20.000 What was studied?

00:17:22.000 What they discovered?

00:17:23.000 So, you have to go in two directions.

00:17:27.000 First, you don't need something, you know, three feet by five feet to do that.

00:17:32.000 You can do it on a few grams.

00:17:35.000 We've got instruments now, new instruments that were created by some of the people that I work with that can just do it at the biological level, you know, like almost the level of a few grams or a few milligrams.

00:17:53.000 So, we're in the process of doing that.

00:17:55.000 And in fact, the book that I'm preparing is going to talk about that.

00:18:01.000 The other thing is, you know, where would the big thing go?

00:18:07.000 You know, we don't have the big thing.

00:18:11.000 Well, you know, after a few years, people talk.

00:18:14.000 And again, both in Silicon Valley and other places, Scientists need to talk to each other.

00:18:23.000 And I've had discussions with people who handle that material.

00:18:29.000 One of them I can tell you about was a very high level engineering manager in a large company that has research labs in Silicon Valley.

00:18:43.000 He was asked 30 years ago to look at some material.

00:18:48.000 And he described to me what that was, and actually he showed it to me.

00:18:55.000 He said it was a matrix of orthosilicates, and he could not understand the deep structure.

00:19:04.000 I mean, he could analyze it in his lab.

00:19:07.000 He was a man who developed the magnetic coating for discs and tapes.

00:19:15.000 So I don't need to tell you how many billions of dollars of business those companies that he worked with, you know, made based on his patents.

00:19:27.000 So he had a good lab and he was able to do the analysis.

00:19:32.000 He could not understand the deep structure of that material.

00:19:36.000 Now, the problem that the people who have those vehicles have is they will, because it's top secret, they have to compartmentalize everything.

00:19:48.000 So one company would get the material.

00:19:52.000 Another company might get some descriptions of maybe the beings.

00:19:57.000 Another company might get something that looks like fiber optics or electronics.

00:20:04.000 They wouldn't Only a few people would be able to put all the information together.

00:20:10.000 That's not a good way to do research, not a good way to do science.

00:20:14.000 We've got to get that stuff to the scientific community and open it up.

00:20:19.000 Well, this is what Bob Lazard said about working at Area S4, that that was the problem they were having.

00:20:25.000 One group was working on propulsion, the other group was working on metallurgy.

00:20:29.000 But this material that this gentleman had seen where he couldn't identify the structure, what was that and where was it from?

00:20:37.000 It was from a crash.

00:20:39.000 From a crash where?

00:20:40.000 He didn't tell me.

00:20:41.000 He didn't tell you?

00:20:42.000 No.

00:20:42.000 But they had, and he had gotten it through what method?

00:20:47.000 He had been asked on a secret project to do the analysis.

00:20:53.000 So this had been something the government had brought to him?

00:20:55.000 He had a lab that was unique in the United States.

00:20:58.000 And, you know, he was the appropriate guy.

00:21:02.000 Is it possible that this could have been some material that was created by a foreign government that has an extremely advanced understanding of these materials?

00:21:14.000 If it had been, that material would have been used by now.

00:21:18.000 And we've never seen that material again.

00:21:21.000 And what year was this, when he did the study?

00:21:23.000 I don't know when he did the study.

00:21:26.000 He's dead now, so he's not going to be thrown in jail for.

00:21:34.000 Look, in Silicon Valley, people from different companies and so on get together and they look at things together.

00:21:42.000 They trust you because you need to get different minds on the same page.

00:21:51.000 So that conversation was over 20 years ago.

00:21:56.000 I've never forgotten it.

00:21:58.000 I had another conversation with a military man who is retired now who told me that he was brought in to a large hangar where there were pieces of things that looked like a vehicle and there was a wing.

00:22:18.000 That would have been, you know, the size of this table.

00:22:23.000 And he could lift it with one hand.

00:22:25.000 It was, again, very light, you know, like what James was saying about Roswell, extremely light material that was very, very strong.

00:22:34.000 Well, still today we don't have anything like that.

00:22:38.000 We've got fancy titanium things and so on, but he knew what technology went into our advanced aircraft.

00:22:47.000 He was with the Air Force and he couldn't believe that he could lift that entire metal surface with one hand.

00:22:56.000 So, what is the current speculation on where the wreckage from Roswell went?

00:23:00.000 Like, as far as people know, people do talk, like, clearly if there was some material that was recovered that was from an alien spacecraft, it must be somewhere.

00:23:12.000 It would...

00:23:14.000 Well, typically, the way...

00:23:18.000 You know, a secret project works.

00:23:21.000 If you look at other projects that we know now how they were handled, like the submarine, the Russian submarine that was recovered.

00:23:33.000 And it would go to different places because you'd send different parts to the best experts, absolutely the best world experts in those people you already have under contract.

00:23:49.000 And you might not tell them, you know, where it comes from.

00:23:53.000 You might tell them this is something, you know, one of our guys got this out of Czechoslovakia, you know, and we think it's Russian stuff from a MiG, you know, and why don't you analyze it?

00:24:06.000 They wouldn't necessarily tell you that it comes from a UFO, whatever UFOs are.

00:24:13.000 Ask Jacques where the bodies are.

00:24:15.000 Okay, but hold on.

00:24:18.000 Is anybody speculating as to where the material from Roswell is?

00:24:24.000 Is there a legend?

00:24:27.000 Is there rumor?

00:24:29.000 Not something that would pass, you know, that the scientists would really, really look at.

00:24:39.000 You know...

00:24:42.000 In the 40s, there were people working on advanced materials for ultralight aircraft, for rockets.

00:24:55.000 You know, the transistor, people say, look at the transistor, we must have gotten this from the aliens.

00:25:01.000 Well, the patent for the transistor is a German patent from 1934. You know, the German scientist He discovered the transistor effect and he described it.

00:25:14.000 But nobody had any need for that.

00:25:17.000 I mean, there was no electronics in 1934. So nobody really had any need for it.

00:25:22.000 And then the electronics was in glass tubes and so on and so on.

00:25:26.000 So that was rediscovered at Bell Labs by the people who patented the transistor in the US. That was one of the big UFO conspiracy theories, was that some of the technology that was recovered from Roswell was used and back-engineered to create transistors.

00:25:47.000 And they did this at Bell Labs.

00:25:49.000 And there was a company called the American Computer Company that had a whole website dedicated to explaining where some of the technology that we currently use came from.

00:25:59.000 They were all in on this conspiracy that it came from Roswell.

00:26:04.000 I don't think you would find too many people in Silicon Valley who would believe that because some of the people from Bell Labs came west and some of them are still alive and they would tell you how it happened.

00:26:19.000 And when you look at the old films, the old movies from Bell Labs, You know, you can see what they were doing, and it's kind of laughable.

00:26:29.000 I mean, it's, you know, high school physics, you know, hooking up the thing with big wires and so on.

00:26:35.000 This was not really advanced stuff, but they understood the transistor effect, which was known since the 30s.

00:26:43.000 It was not new science.

00:26:46.000 It was just something that had never...

00:26:51.000 There was no application for it.

00:26:52.000 To develop because, you know, the amplifiers worked fine, you know, and there was no real need for it.

00:26:59.000 When there was a need, then they started working on that.

00:27:02.000 That's one of the big rumors, right?

00:27:04.000 Is the transistor.

00:27:06.000 Well, fibers.

00:27:10.000 Fiber optics.

00:27:12.000 Colonel Corso, who was someone I respect and admire, revealed that he was in charge for the army.

00:27:25.000 Of getting, he got a lot of, and somebody gave him a, you know, a cardboard box, literally, full of stuff that came from places like Roswell.

00:27:35.000 And they were fibers.

00:27:37.000 And when you put a light at one end, you know, the light would go to the end of the fiber and so on.

00:27:42.000 Well, that effect has been known, you know, in physics for a long time.

00:27:47.000 So, again, that doesn't prove anything.

00:27:51.000 I had that conversation with Carl.

00:27:52.000 So, I spent two days with him, thanks to Mr. Bigelow.

00:27:56.000 You know, we brought him to Las Vegas to, you know, talk to the science board of Bigelow Aerospace.

00:28:07.000 And then I had some private conversations with him.

00:28:10.000 About some other things that were not in his book.

00:28:14.000 But the fiber, you know, I told him frankly, you know, fibers, glass fibers were known before World War II. People used them in lab work and so on.

00:28:29.000 So that's not really new.

00:28:31.000 He said, look, you know, I'm not a scientist, you know, I'm a military guy.

00:28:37.000 But I was asked by, you know, the head of the lab to preserve this.

00:28:43.000 And what he did is to give it to different labs.

00:28:46.000 You know, give it to MIT, give it to, I don't know, Battelle, give it to a few others.

00:28:52.000 And what happened when he did that?

00:28:54.000 I don't know what happened.

00:28:56.000 I interviewed Colonel Corso.

00:28:57.000 Do you believe him?

00:28:59.000 Yes.

00:28:59.000 Okay, so I interviewed Colonel Corso on camera in 1997 in Roswell.

00:29:03.000 It was right at the 50th anniversary of the Roswell event.

00:29:06.000 There was a lot of hoopla around what had happened.

00:29:09.000 And he told me on camera, A, that he saw these bodies that he assumed were childlike, these big heads and eyes in a warehouse somewhere.

00:29:18.000 But he described the materials.

00:29:19.000 What he said to me, and I'm not saying this is true or not true, but what he said to me, Was that they were shocked at the lack of provisions on the craft, that the bodies had no reproductive organs, slits for mouths, no vocal cords.

00:29:33.000 There were these little pen-like things that later turned out to be lasers.

00:29:38.000 And there was this filament stringy stuff that was later to be determined to be fiber optics.

00:29:44.000 And that the material had this, you could crumple it up with light as a feather, and then it would regain its original form.

00:29:53.000 That's what he told me on camera.

00:29:55.000 I think he died a year later.

00:29:58.000 He told that also to Paola Harris, who traveled with him in Europe and published his book in Italy and other languages.

00:30:09.000 His English book was censored.

00:30:12.000 By the publisher.

00:30:13.000 And he died, really.

00:30:16.000 I mean, he was given the, you know, the proof.

00:30:20.000 He had 24 hours to check the proof.

00:30:23.000 He didn't check everything.

00:30:24.000 He didn't have time.

00:30:25.000 And there were parts that were missing and parts that he had told me.

00:30:30.000 Fortunately, you know, I can testify to what he told me.

00:30:33.000 But the, you know, a lot of what he knew wasn't in the book that was published in the US. It's in books that were published in other languages, you know, thanks to Paola Harris, who preserved all that.

00:30:49.000 But there was, you know, still at that stage, you know, there was some, you know, some tricks being played.

00:30:58.000 Not to get all the information out.

00:31:00.000 This is something Clinton looked into when he was a president, right?

00:31:04.000 President wouldn't necessarily be cleared.

00:31:06.000 That's hilarious.

00:31:08.000 I mean, number one, obviously I don't know the facts.

00:31:14.000 You would think that if you get to the top office of the United States that you would get access.

00:31:19.000 To that, but I guess because it's transient, because they're in and out.

00:31:23.000 Well, it's not a matter of curiosity.

00:31:25.000 It's a matter of need to know.

00:31:28.000 And you also want to protect the president.

00:31:31.000 And also the president changes every four years.

00:31:34.000 And also there are three different...

00:31:39.000 Classes of secrets.

00:31:42.000 There are secrets that are under the control of the president.

00:31:47.000 There are secrets that are under the control of the State Department that have to do with foreign intelligence that don't go through the same channels.

00:31:57.000 And then there are the atomic secrets.

00:32:01.000 The clearances for, you know, over the years I've occasionally been cleared.

00:32:07.000 I was cleared for the bass project under Mr. Bigelow.

00:32:19.000 The clearances for atomic secrets are the P clearances, the Q clearances, the R clearances.

00:32:26.000 They are completely segregated from the kind of clearances that we had as part of the The Bass Project or the ATIP Project.

00:32:37.000 So those people would not have been cleared for some of the scientific information.

00:32:44.000 And I think we're getting to the point where we need to Somebody needs to open up the doors and the windows and get the scientific community involved.

00:32:56.000 Well, it does seem like there's more openness now from the penthouse, right?

00:33:01.000 There was the one person who worked at the Pentagon that was saying that They've recovered crafts that are off-world vehicles, not from this earth.

00:33:14.000 That was a direct quote.

00:33:15.000 And then these photos that supposedly exist now from this new article that's out that are top secret, but people are trying to get these photographs released to the general public that show this triangular UFO. But just these kind of statements and just the release of the Go Fast video and the other videos from the Gimbal video that show these vehicles that are being observed by these fighter jet pilots that are watching

00:33:45.000 these things in real time going, holy shit, what is that?

00:33:49.000 And you get to hear their words, you get to see the video, you see the actual object jetting across the surface of the ocean and And they don't know what it is, and they're trying to figure it out while they're watching it.

00:34:02.000 That's never existed before.

00:34:03.000 There's never been this much openness.

00:34:05.000 So there's a new level of at least admitting that there's an issue, that there's a phenomenon that didn't exist before.

00:34:12.000 You're talking about the U.S. Yes.

00:34:14.000 In other countries, people have been a lot more open.

00:34:17.000 Yeah.

00:34:17.000 Including Russia, you know?

00:34:19.000 I mean, and certainly including France.

00:34:22.000 I mean, there was one...

00:34:25.000 One incident, 1978, a Mirage, you know, a guy flying a Mirage, Volcano, French Air Force.

00:34:35.000 The Mirage doesn't have any weapons.

00:34:37.000 It's just coming in to Dijon, you know, Dijon where the mustard comes from.

00:34:42.000 Well, they happen to have, you know, a base, an atomic base there.

00:34:46.000 And the Mirages are fighter bombers.

00:34:49.000 They can take nuclear ammunition.

00:34:53.000 He was unarmed.

00:34:54.000 He's flying at, you know, late afternoon, early evening.

00:35:00.000 No problem.

00:35:01.000 He sees a light at his two o'clock position, bright light, doesn't know what it is, gets bigger.

00:35:08.000 He thinks he sees a structure behind the light, but he was never really sure.

00:35:14.000 There seems to be an object there, solid object.

00:35:17.000 But the light goes around him and stops up on his tail, which is a kill position, you know, for a fighter jet.

00:35:31.000 He doesn't like that.

00:35:34.000 He takes evasive action, which he wasn't prepared to do.

00:35:37.000 I mean, he didn't have, you know, special suits or anything.

00:35:41.000 He dives.

00:35:43.000 The object starts moving again, goes around him, makes a 360-degree circle at high speed, and he can't believe it.

00:35:56.000 I mean, number one, there couldn't be a pilot because a pilot could be crushed, but there is nothing that can move that fast.

00:36:03.000 And the thing is, back on his tail, he has to dive a second time.

00:36:07.000 He lands in Dijon, writes a report.

00:36:11.000 The report would probably not have come out except that there were a number of people on the ground who saw this happen, saw the whole thing.

00:36:20.000 And there was a gendarme, you know, who was French police, a branch of, you know, parallel to the French police, who wrote a report and that report was public.

00:36:31.000 So they interviewed, they found the pilot, they interviewed him, I mean, there is no question that happened.

00:36:38.000 And this was 1978. So, I mean, what else is new?

00:36:42.000 Okay, that we've got those things.

00:36:44.000 What's new is we have footage, you know, and some of the footage that James had in his, you know, in his movie...

00:36:52.000 That actually proves it.

00:36:54.000 But actually, you know, footage doesn't prove anything.

00:36:57.000 Well, you can fake the camera.

00:36:59.000 But when you have the pilots themselves and the footage and the instrumentation and the radar, I mean, that thing was tracked on radar that saw the whole thing, you know.

00:37:11.000 You don't really do that to a nuclear bomber.

00:37:16.000 Would you have something?

00:37:17.000 Yeah, so this is a breaking story and former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Christopher Mellon, literally sent this to me about 15 minutes ago and he wanted me to read it verbatim.

00:37:29.000 So I was going to read this.

00:37:30.000 It's pretty startling stuff.

00:37:31.000 So I'll read it.

00:37:32.000 In the last 48 hours, the public has learned of two stunning incidents captured on film.

00:37:39.000 by US Navy carrier pilots earlier this year.

00:37:43.000 One of the cases features a photo of a bizarre flying sphere and a black cube inside that is identical to dozens of other reports by Navy pilots.

00:37:55.000 These strange objects have been shadowing East Coast Naval Ops since 2015. They sometimes maneuver in formation and have occasionally been reported achieving supersonic speeds.

00:38:07.000 The other incident produced a stunning detailed photograph of a massive triangular shaped vehicle that emerged from the ocean and flew vertically straight up and out of sight just past a Navy F-18 operating off the US aircraft carrier.

00:38:25.000 These iPhone photos taken by the pilots should be released to the public as there are no sources and methods to protect and the national security benefits of raising awareness regarding this issue vastly outweigh any conceivable benefit from concealing the information.

00:38:44.000 It is hard to believe that in the face of such radical and incredible technology within our vast Defense Department, we only have a so-called task force consisting of two individuals with no budget who are still being stiff-armed for access to relevant and timely information by the Air Force and other security organizations.

00:39:07.000 By comparison, 60 years ago in response to Sputnik, America entered the space race, which led to landing on the moon.

00:39:15.000 Our government needs to wake up and address the far greater technology gap that these and many other incidents are revealing.

00:39:22.000 There is obviously a glaring strategic mismatch between the current task force and the technology that has been identified.

00:39:29.000 Why did he send you this?

00:39:31.000 Because he felt it's a developing story and he wants...

00:39:34.000 People to be aware that there's really compelling evidence right now, photographically, that needs to be released.

00:39:40.000 And so you told him you were coming on here and that's when he sent it to you?

00:39:43.000 Yes, and he said that these people need to feel some pressure.

00:39:47.000 They need to know that we are requesting, not demanding, but requesting further government transparency on this issue.

00:39:56.000 And he's very passionate about it.

00:39:58.000 He knows of these photographs.

00:39:59.000 The government's We got the story, I think it was yesterday, and the government is refusing to release these photographs.

00:40:06.000 The pilots want these photographs released.

00:40:07.000 The people that are involved with the incident want the photographs released.

00:40:10.000 And so he wants the public to know that these photographs exist and that they should be released.

00:40:16.000 And they're currently in the possession of...

00:40:18.000 He wouldn't reveal that.

00:40:19.000 He knows the person, but he said that the government is not wanting them released, and he feels that we have a right to these photographs.

00:40:26.000 And there's video that came with this story as well.

00:40:28.000 Well, remember, this comes from the very guy who was strategic, Christopher Mellon, in getting those videotaped evidence from the cockpits of those F-18 fighter jets off the East Coast as well as off the West Coast in 2004, 2015, and ended up with that big story on the front page of the New York Times in 2017. Yeah,

00:40:48.000 see, that's a new thing.

00:40:52.000 Because if you went to like 2004 when this all happened, no one was really talking about UFOs in a serious manner.

00:41:03.000 It was still something that would be mocked and ridiculed.

00:41:06.000 But to have it on the front page of the New York Times and to have this spokesperson for the Pentagon say that they've recovered off-world vehicles Not from this earth.

00:41:17.000 Not made on this earth.

00:41:19.000 This is a change.

00:41:22.000 Even though it doesn't receive that much public attention because it's all happening during a pandemic and everyone's just...

00:41:30.000 And also the news cycle today is so bizarre.

00:41:33.000 Something gets into the news cycle and then it's gone tomorrow because of a new scandal or people find out Ellen's mean or whatever it is. 0.98

00:41:39.000 There's always something new that's coming out.

00:41:41.000 And these things though, it seems to be there's more of them and more of them coming out.

00:41:47.000 And with each new story that comes out, people feel more emboldened to tell their story.

00:41:52.000 You know, I think personally everything changed in December of 2017 when that page, a front page of the New York Times revealed that secret ATIP program.

00:42:02.000 And I know personally, because I've gotten ridiculed for decades for the work I do, a lot less so recently, people are suddenly raising their eyebrow going, wow, there's clearly something more to this than just, you know, radar weather balloons and misidentified aircraft.

00:42:18.000 Jamie, pull up the video that's in that article.

00:42:21.000 There's an actual YouTube video.

00:42:23.000 There's two.

00:42:24.000 One's from 94, one's from 2013. Let's go with the 2013 one.

00:42:29.000 But these videos are very strange.

00:42:34.000 You see this object.

00:42:36.000 What's interesting too is that, okay, this is the one that I didn't see, but that this thing, the way it moves and behaves, the one that's from, I guess it was from the 94 one.

00:42:45.000 This is the 2013 one.

00:42:47.000 This is the one from Puerto Rico.

00:42:48.000 So it's just kind of cruising across the sky.

00:42:53.000 It's hard to track here in this black and white.

00:42:55.000 There it is.

00:42:58.000 Does it estimate how fast this thing is supposedly going?

00:43:03.000 It looks like they were near some sort of military base or something.

00:43:07.000 On Aguadilla, which is like the west coast.

00:43:12.000 It's so weird to see.

00:43:14.000 It's not clear what this thing is.

00:43:17.000 So, one of the things that I think it's really good to establish...

00:43:20.000 Go further ahead in this video to see if maybe there's a better version of it or a better...

00:43:25.000 I'll sort of check.

00:43:26.000 The other one has a little clearer video.

00:43:33.000 Yeah, there you go.

00:43:34.000 That's much clearer.

00:43:35.000 Like, what is that?

00:43:38.000 That's not a bird.

00:43:39.000 Like, it's moving through the clouds.

00:43:42.000 One of the things I wanted to make a distinction of is the technology, the observed technology that these guys are talking about.

00:43:48.000 So you've got objects...

00:43:50.000 With no wings, no visible means of propulsion, the ability to hover, accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speed, fly rings around our fastest jets.

00:44:03.000 That is the technology that cannot be confused or explained away as something conventional.

00:44:09.000 So anytime you see an object like we're looking at here, if it performs or exhibits at that technology, maybe it shoots off at a high rate of speed, does a right angle turn at high speeds, no wings, no tail, no propulsion, no sonic boom, almost no sound,

00:44:27.000 that's...

00:44:28.000 And they're trying to get a close-up on this thing so you get a better idea what the shape is.

00:44:32.000 It's very hard to tell.

00:44:34.000 But these objects, also one of the weird things is it moves around the same way Commander Fravor described that thing moving around that was hovering over the ocean.

00:44:44.000 That it kind of darts around left and right, right and left, almost like it's just not connected to whatever our atmosphere is.

00:44:55.000 It's like it's moving in this weird zigzag sort of a way.

00:45:00.000 This is an infrared image, right?

00:45:02.000 It's not a normal camera.

00:45:08.000 I don't know.

00:45:09.000 I don't know what it is.

00:45:10.000 Is that what it looks like to you?

00:45:11.000 I think it's the same type of camera as the one from the Nimitz.

00:45:17.000 So you're looking at the heat signature.

00:45:21.000 You're not really looking at the visual picture.

00:45:24.000 Right.

00:45:24.000 So that's why you cannot get a clear definition of it.

00:45:30.000 Well, they need better cameras.

00:45:32.000 So if you go further along in the video, they do get a better view of it.

00:45:38.000 There it is.

00:45:38.000 There you go.

00:45:40.000 Like, what the hell is that?

00:45:43.000 You know, that was one of the more startling...

00:45:48.000 One of the moments of producing the film The Phenomenon for me was when I met with Senator Harry Reid, who spearheaded the AATIP program, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program that wound up on the front page of the New York Times.

00:46:00.000 I wasn't quite sure when I met with him where his comfort zone was, and so I was really kind of cautious for the first half an hour of the interview.

00:46:07.000 But then I started, we started to relax and get more comfortable with each other.

00:46:12.000 And I decided to kind of push it a little bit.

00:46:14.000 And I said, Hey, Senator, I met with Gordon Cooper, who later became Mercury astronaut.

00:46:23.000 Who told me on camera that there was a landing incident that took place at Edwards Air Force Base circa 1957, where they happened to have a camera crew out near the dry lake bed capturing the installation of a new landing facility for F-86 fighter jets.

00:46:37.000 And it was broad daylight, and all of a sudden this disk appears out of nowhere, and the camera crew turned their cameras on it, and they filmed the landing of this flying saucer on the dry lake bed at Edwards Air Force Base.

00:46:50.000 And I'm telling the story to Senator Reid, thinking, you know, I don't know how he's going to react, but this is what I have him on camera.

00:46:58.000 And I said he has the film footage developed.

00:47:01.000 It was good footage.

00:47:01.000 He held it up.

00:47:02.000 He looked at it.

00:47:03.000 It was a disc, you know, blah, blah, blah.

00:47:05.000 And eventually he gets a courier jet from Washington, D.C. that flies in, pick up the footage.

00:47:11.000 Senator Reid goes, and it was never seen or heard from again.

00:47:14.000 And I said, yeah, exactly.

00:47:16.000 And I said, did you guys uncover stuff like that?

00:47:19.000 He goes, oh, yeah, it's all there.

00:47:21.000 We have it.

00:47:22.000 It's all there.

00:47:23.000 And then he goes to change the topic and talk about something else.

00:47:26.000 And I said, well, hold on, Senator.

00:47:28.000 Are you saying that there's evidence that hasn't seen the light of day?

00:47:33.000 And he looked at me.

00:47:35.000 And he kind of pauses and he picks up his water bottle and he drinks a sip of water and that moment seemed like an hour, but it was probably just a second or two.

00:47:42.000 And he puts his water bottle down and he says, I'm saying that most of the evidence hasn't seen the light of day.

00:47:48.000 So that...

00:47:50.000 That for me was such a powerful moment because I'm going, look at who this is coming from.

00:47:55.000 This is the former head of, you know, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid saying that the vast majority of evidence hasn't seen the light of day.

00:48:02.000 And if the President of the United States can't get access to it, as I found out when I interviewed all the people around President Clinton, who can?

00:48:11.000 Who has the authority to have this stuff released?

00:48:14.000 And that's something that I would love to know.

00:48:16.000 And I've been trying to find out.

00:48:19.000 So someone does.

00:48:21.000 Someone in some position of government or some intelligence agency, someone in the Pentagon, someone or some group at the highest level of clearance has access to this information and knows about it.

00:48:35.000 Absolutely.

00:48:36.000 Senator Reid said they uncovered all this stuff during the program, and he said the level of resistance that he got from the intelligence agencies was insane.

00:48:44.000 Like, I mean, they did not want this project going forward at the Pentagon.

00:48:48.000 But they pushed, and they pushed, and they pushed, and they got it through.

00:48:51.000 It started in 2007. It went all the way up until it ended up on the front page of the New York Times in 2017. And of course, now we know that there's another project.

00:48:58.000 But Jacques, do you know who has the authority to release this stuff to the general public?

00:49:06.000 No, no.

00:49:07.000 Not in this particular case.

00:49:10.000 Where are the bodies from Roswell?

00:49:14.000 I don't know.

00:49:15.000 I mean, you know, all you have are rumors.

00:49:18.000 You know, Walter Reed Hospital in the basement, you know.

00:49:23.000 I can't get to the basement of Walter Reed Hospital.

00:49:26.000 Have you ever talked to anybody that's reputable?

00:49:28.000 Anybody that you believe that seems to know?

00:49:31.000 Yes.

00:49:32.000 Well, now, you know, there are physicians in the...

00:49:36.000 You know, with clearances, who have tried to get that information.

00:49:42.000 And to my knowledge, because they don't need to tell me everything, but if there was...

00:49:53.000 You know, there is material evidence, like the kind of thing I've got, okay, that witnesses have given to me, you know, that I went out and dug it up, okay, so I know where it comes from.

00:50:05.000 But if we found that it was really very strange, even beyond our ability to manipulate the isotopes, that still doesn't prove That there isn't somebody who is smarter than we are somewhere on Earth making that stuff.

00:50:21.000 Okay, so I still couldn't stand, you know, at the Academy of Sciences and say, look, this proves it.

00:50:29.000 But if we have bodies I would think that if they have a different structure from any organism that we know from biology on Earth, I mean, I would have to think that would be a revolution.

00:50:48.000 Instantly.

00:50:48.000 Yes, instantly.

00:50:49.000 People would be confronted with it.

00:50:51.000 The strange thing is that the iconic image of an alien seems consistent.

00:50:56.000 Yes.

00:50:58.000 Yes.

00:51:09.000 Correct.

00:51:13.000 Yeah, like the African landing case in Zimbabwe in 1994. That is a crazy part of your documentary because you see these children that are going to school in Africa.

00:51:23.000 This thing lands and then they draw pictures of it.

00:51:28.000 The children are all consistent and then 20 years later they all meet and talk about it again and now when people lie A lot of times when people lie, when they're making up a crazy story like being abducted by a UFO, they want to be special.

00:51:44.000 They want to be different.

00:51:45.000 Like, I was the one they chose.

00:51:47.000 There's none of that from these kids.

00:51:48.000 They all have the same story.

00:51:50.000 They all have the same, you know, they didn't have the best drawing skills, but they all drew something that's incredibly similar.

00:51:55.000 It was all a classic looking UFO, flying saucer type vehicle.

00:51:59.000 I don't know.

00:52:14.000 I was doing my first documentary back in 1997 when I was just naive enough to think I can get an interview with Steven Spielberg.

00:52:22.000 We had a mutual friend involved, this woman Janet, and she gets back to me and she's like, yeah, so Spielberg's definitely not going to meet with you, but he knows you're working on this UFO documentary.

00:52:32.000 He thinks you should look into this landing case that happened in Africa at the school.

00:52:36.000 And I said to myself at the time, and remind you guys that I was making a film on UFOs, and I dismissed it so quickly because I thought...

00:52:45.000 There's no way that a mass landing with the sheer volume of eyewitness testimony at a school in broad daylight could happen and the whole world not know about it.

00:52:57.000 So I just walked away from that story for about ten years.

00:52:59.000 Ten years later, I'm doing an event at the National Press Club with Leslie Kane, who was part of the article in the New York Times that came out in 2017. And she introduced me to this guy, Randall Nickerson.

00:53:13.000 And she's like, oh, he's working on this landing case in Africa.

00:53:16.000 Long story short, he's working on a film now, I think it's coming out next year, specifically on just that case.

00:53:24.000 Dan Farah is producing it.

00:53:25.000 And he said, I'm working on the case, and if you want to do something with me on it, a small piece, I could.

00:53:33.000 So I got back into it.

00:53:35.000 I licensed some of the footage that Dr. John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist that came and interviewed the school children on camera within a week of it happening.

00:53:43.000 He unfortunately looked the wrong way in London, got run down by a car and died.

00:53:47.000 So I contacted the Institute with the help of Randall Nickerson.

00:53:50.000 I licensed the archival footage.

00:53:53.000 We tracked down the witnesses today.

00:53:55.000 We flew them in from all different corners of the world, brought them together.

00:53:59.000 A lot of them were standing right next to each other.

00:54:00.000 They came face to face, and one of the things I realized was that there were roughly 100 kids in the playground, broad daylight, aerial school, Rue Zimbabwe, 1994, and they got some of them within arm's length of these beings and brought these witnesses together for the first time in 20 years,

00:54:20.000 and a lot of them hadn't even told their significant others.

00:54:24.000 Just because they said they were tired of having to defend this.

00:54:27.000 And I myself didn't believe it when I first heard about it back in 1997. And that segment of the film is the most, in my opinion, is the most powerful segment.

00:54:38.000 It's very compelling.

00:54:39.000 You've got all these children saying what they saw on camera after it happened.

00:54:43.000 And then you see them 20 years later.

00:54:45.000 And then we go to Africa and we meet with the headmistress.

00:54:48.000 She was a teacher at the time.

00:54:50.000 We went with other witnesses.

00:54:51.000 We go to the landing site.

00:54:52.000 We talk to people at the school.

00:54:54.000 That case is absolute, and it was witnessed by lots of other people in and around the area for several days before it chose a school to land.

00:55:03.000 It's so compelling because the children are all clearly...

00:55:06.000 They're not actors.

00:55:07.000 So as they're adults later, they're all talking about this moment and it's like they had a religious experience together.

00:55:15.000 They're all sharing it and talking about it and you can tell it's a deeply moving experience.

00:55:20.000 If they were actors, they wouldn't have been able to do such a good job.

00:55:25.000 Because to convey the reality of that moment to them, to...

00:55:30.000 To be able to have this interpretation of this event where they're all consistent in the story and they're all clearly still shook by this moment.

00:55:42.000 It's really interesting because if you had that scene in a movie, it would take like a really good actor to pull it off.

00:55:50.000 And they'd probably need multiple takes.

00:55:51.000 They'd probably want to get the best one.

00:55:53.000 But those kids, the way they were talking about it and the way they were drawing it, you're like...

00:55:57.000 Wow, it really does seem like something happened to them.

00:55:59.000 I know how credible the testimony of the children is because my partner, Rebecca, she's never had much of an interest in what I do, making documentaries on UFOs.

00:56:09.000 I do other things as well, but when I was reviewing in the studio the archival interview of the children, she just dropped off a cup of coffee and she stopped and went, Oh my God, those children are not lying.

00:56:23.000 This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.

00:56:25.000 Because look, I ask your audience to don't take it from me.

00:56:29.000 Just suspend judgment for a moment and imagine, hypothetically, if...

00:56:36.000 A UFO or several UFOs landed at a school in broad daylight in Rua, Zimbabwe, Africa, and interacted telepathically with nearly 100 schoolchildren.

00:56:48.000 Not all of them had telepathic, but seeing the incident.

00:56:52.000 How significant of a story would you give that?

00:56:54.000 Well, not only that, they had the same message.

00:56:56.000 Yes.

00:56:56.000 But the telepathic message was that technology is a real problem.

00:57:01.000 Yes.

00:57:01.000 And there's things that people are doing with technology that are going to ruin the earth.

00:57:04.000 Yes.

00:57:05.000 And they were trying to relay this to children, which is very strange.

00:57:08.000 Yes.

00:57:09.000 You know, I mean, maybe they just thought they were adults because they were the same size as the aliens.

00:57:14.000 I mean, do you think they knew that they were children?

00:57:16.000 Do you think they understood that it was a school?

00:57:18.000 I mean, this is all speculation, right?

00:57:19.000 Yeah, but no, I definitely had to ask myself, look, during the production of the film, Paula Harris actually turned me on to another landing case that happened in Australia in 1966. At a school, and this time there were roughly 300 witnesses that saw a disc land right outside a playground in Australia.

00:57:39.000 And we went to Australia and investigated that case, went to the landing site, talked to eyewitness testimony, people that jumped the fence at the school playground, and ran over to where this thing landed.

00:57:49.000 And then we even interviewed a guy who snapped a photograph of a disc, a Polaroid, back in 1966, two days prior to the incident.

00:57:56.000 So it's very...

00:58:00.000 Probably that we have photographic evidence, we have eyewitness testimony, and for the first time we've got testimony from a science teacher.

00:58:08.000 So why do these things land at schools?

00:58:12.000 It seems like, and I'm just totally speculating here, but it seems like if I were going to do that, it seems like a pretty benign environment.

00:58:21.000 We've had testimony from military guys that we take a fairly hostile position towards things that penetrate sensitive military installations.

00:58:30.000 And, you know, so maybe, I'm just saying maybe, maybe...

00:58:35.000 It's safe.

00:58:36.000 Maybe it's safe.

00:58:37.000 Yeah, but we have to stop reacting to, you know, intrusions by UFOs as a threat.

00:58:44.000 I mean, that's the whole thing behind this new task force.

00:58:47.000 And as much as I respect, you know, the task force...

00:58:51.000 My colleagues and I want to cooperate with them to the extent that we can bring information or resources to what they do.

00:59:00.000 But there is more.

00:59:01.000 This should not be looked at specifically as a threat.

00:59:06.000 I mean, with the phenomena that we observe, I mean, if they wanted to blow up those F-18s, they could do it, okay?

00:59:15.000 Obviously, that's not what it's all about.

00:59:18.000 And this idea of just labeling it all as a threat because it's unknown, that's a wrong idea.

00:59:26.000 Ninety percent of the information comes from the public, comes from children, and very, very little of it is made up.

00:59:34.000 In France, the data we get at the French Space Agency comes through channels where if people reported something that's found to be untrue, they are going to be called by the police.

00:59:49.000 And they may have some penalties associated with that.

00:59:54.000 Now you said that they can blow them up, but there's never been any evidence of a UFO attacking anything, right?

01:00:00.000 There has been.

01:00:02.000 Really?

01:00:02.000 Yes.

01:00:03.000 There have been people killed, apparently for no reason.

01:00:09.000 Very rare though.

01:00:10.000 Where was this?

01:00:11.000 10, 12 cases.

01:00:13.000 I went to Brazil four times, and I got to know Brazil and the data there pretty well.

01:00:21.000 And I spoke to people in the armed forces, people in the Brazilian Air Force, and the police.

01:00:29.000 There have been a number of cases where people died, where witnesses died, and also cases where witnesses were chased I think?

01:01:03.000 Which means it's not just light, it's something else.

01:01:07.000 And also they will pin you to a hammock, for example.

01:01:12.000 Some of the people who are asleep in a hammock, they wake up and they see this light, and the light comes down and pins them to the bed or to the hammock.

01:01:25.000 And I've published pictures of injuries that people sustained as a result of those beams.

01:01:32.000 So, you know, this is at least a demonstration of, you know, of a power that, number one, we don't quite understand the technology, and number two, we don't understand why that is.

01:01:48.000 And you're of the opinion that these things might not be from another planet, that it could be they're interdimensional.

01:01:56.000 So, yes, I'm amazed that, you know, I mean, in the 50s and 60s, There was all that science fiction about, you know, aliens from other planets and so on, all these movies.

01:02:11.000 So that was, okay, and frankly when I started looking at the statistics, trying to make sense, trying to build those databases, Do AI on top of it.

01:02:23.000 I was looking for, you know, ET extraterrestrials.

01:02:27.000 Now, we've got so much more data that contradicts that.

01:02:31.000 Things coming through the wall of a bedroom, okay, as a light, and the light turns into something else, and it has information in it, or it turns into something physical.

01:02:44.000 You know, this is way off.

01:02:47.000 I mean, these are not just vehicles that come from somewhere else.

01:02:51.000 So there are a number of contradictions in there.

01:02:54.000 It could be there's a number of different non-related phenomena.

01:02:58.000 Well, you know, to some extent, I mean, we keep saying that the scientists are skeptical and so on, but if you look at physics today, I mean, People will tell you there's probably more than, there must be more than four dimensions,

01:03:14.000 you know, of space-time.

01:03:16.000 There must be, to explain, you know, atomic phenomena, to explain quantum mechanics, to explain all those things.

01:03:25.000 There could very well be.

01:03:29.000 Theories that are published in physics journals about multiple universes, about universes interpenetrating each other, maybe channels between those universes.

01:03:41.000 There could be another universe with a room like this five minutes ahead of us.

01:03:47.000 We would never see them.

01:03:48.000 We would never detect them.

01:03:50.000 There could be another Earth five minutes ahead of us.

01:03:55.000 In another universe.

01:03:57.000 And physics today authorizes us to think about those things.

01:04:04.000 Now, they think about those things not because of UFOs.

01:04:08.000 They consider it because it makes sense in the theories they have to build to explain what they see in the lab, okay?

01:04:17.000 In the particle labs, in the Accelerators and detecting all these other layers of matter, of nature.

01:04:27.000 But it implies that this isn't just, you know, not only the other planet, but this isn't the only universe.

01:04:37.000 I was going to say, Jacques, one of the assets that Jacques brought to this film, The Phenomenon, and he became involved through Lee Spiegel, and you could talk in a minute about your reluctance to get involved.

01:04:51.000 Initially, Jacques was like, okay, well, I'll participate in just this one little section.

01:04:55.000 And eventually I lured Jacques out to the studio and we were editing the film at the end of this dirt road in a very remote area.

01:05:01.000 We had a place that had no running water, no internet, no toilet.

01:05:05.000 Long story, I was going to get a better space but I just couldn't find one and we just got so much work done in this space I decided to just edit the whole movie here.

01:05:14.000 It was a little cabin in the woods on the California coast.

01:05:18.000 It was gorgeous, full of flowers and so on, but no facilities.

01:05:23.000 None.

01:05:23.000 Just electricity some of the time.

01:05:25.000 Yeah.

01:05:26.000 And there were times when there wasn't even electricity.

01:05:29.000 Oh, yeah.

01:05:30.000 And Jacques would say, okay, I'm coming out for the weekend.

01:05:32.000 He would do these marathon edits with us.

01:05:34.000 And he'd say, I got my face paint.

01:05:35.000 I got my compass.

01:05:36.000 I'm coming out.

01:05:38.000 And one of the first cases I think that you got involved with, speaking of beans, was Socorro, New Mexico, that involved a police officer in April of 1964. This is considered to be the most well-documented close encounter of the third kind.

01:05:54.000 That's when the witness described seeing beans associated with the craft in U.S. history.

01:06:00.000 Turns out, when Jacques found out that I'd already spent five years investigating this case, I interviewed the wife, I interviewed his co-workers, I interviewed his son, his daughter, and I went to the National Archives, and I got all these new documents, I revealed some of them in the movie.

01:06:15.000 Jacques said to me, and I showed him this stuff, he said, my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this case.

01:06:21.000 He said, I was at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in April of 1964 with Dr. Hynek.

01:06:28.000 And you were telling Hynek...

01:06:30.000 Take it over about these Close Encounters cases.

01:06:33.000 Well, about all the cases we had in France that I had in my computer catalog.

01:06:37.000 And that's when he wanted me to move to Northwestern, you know, from Texas.

01:06:44.000 My first year in this country was here in Austin.

01:06:47.000 So it's always fun to come back to Austin.

01:06:50.000 Austin has changed since 1962, I can tell you, I can testify to that.

01:06:56.000 Sure, it's changed since 99 when I first got here.

01:06:58.000 Yes.

01:06:59.000 And so, I told Alan, you know, let me, you know, look really carefully at the Air Force files, and you've got to have close encounter cases.

01:07:12.000 In those days, we were calling them landing cases, because there were traces on the ground, and that's where you could do some physics, you know.

01:07:20.000 There is more than a testimony.

01:07:22.000 The guy says, something landed in my backyard, it left these holes.

01:07:27.000 You don't have to believe him.

01:07:28.000 You can go see the holes.

01:07:30.000 You can measure them.

01:07:31.000 You can look at the temperature.

01:07:32.000 You can look at radiation.

01:07:33.000 You can look at all these things.

01:07:36.000 And he said, no, well, we don't have those kinds of cases.

01:07:40.000 So I convinced him to let me look at the files.

01:07:45.000 And he said, look, I'm going to Wright-Patterson, you know, where Project Blue Book was headquartered, at the Foreign Technology Division, which is an intelligence branch of the Air Force.

01:08:01.000 It looks at foreign materials.

01:08:03.000 It was a logical place to put it.

01:08:05.000 And what's funny is everybody assumes that that project was top secret, you know.

01:08:10.000 I mean, even in the movie production, the series now, the top secret Blue Book.

01:08:16.000 Blue Book was never top secret.

01:08:18.000 There were a few cases individually that were secret because of that radar was classified at the time.

01:08:27.000 But the observation itself wasn't classified.

01:08:31.000 And in those days, I didn't have a clearance, and I wasn't even an American citizen.

01:08:38.000 I had only been in the U.S. for a couple of years.

01:08:41.000 So he said, that's no problem.

01:08:45.000 We'll get you just a clearance for two days to go.

01:08:49.000 To get to the base.

01:08:50.000 But the archives themselves were, you know, any French scientist who wanted access could have had access.

01:08:57.000 Any American scientist.

01:08:59.000 And what frustrated the Air Force was that, you know, Carl Sagan never went there.

01:09:05.000 All these scientists who said that, who poo-pooed the whole idea of UFOs, they never went to look at the archives.

01:09:13.000 They never looked at the testimonies, at the wires, at the teletypes, you know.

01:09:18.000 We talked about Carl Sagan last night and you felt that Carl Sagan was pressured by ridicule and that some of the things that he had speculated that actually turned out to be true like water on the moon and possibly even some form of life that existed in the past or currently on Mars.

01:09:34.000 Yes, he was willing to speculate.

01:09:38.000 They had interesting discussions between Heineken and Sagan.

01:09:42.000 Hynek, you know, kept talking about the Air Force files and Sagan said, you know, if we've got NORAD, NORAD looks at everything with radar covering the United States, you know, completely.

01:09:58.000 So if there are these things, NORAD must be detecting them.

01:10:03.000 So Hynek said, well, you know, go ask them.

01:10:06.000 So Sagan went to NORAD, and he went to, you know, Mountain, where the headquarters are in the control system, Cheyenne Mountain.

01:10:20.000 And he explained that, you know, I understand you guys must have UFOs.

01:10:26.000 They said no.

01:10:28.000 And he said, but, you know, you're tracking everything.

01:10:30.000 We've got these people, you know.

01:10:32.000 Heineck tells me he's got these reports about, and you must have UFO reports.

01:10:37.000 You must be detecting something.

01:10:39.000 They said, yeah, but we don't call them UFOs.

01:10:44.000 So we have no UFOs.

01:10:46.000 It doesn't show up in the files.

01:10:48.000 Somebody says, keyword, UFO. Norad doesn't have anything.

01:10:52.000 So Carl Sagan said, what do you guys call them?

01:10:57.000 And they said, we call them UCTs.

01:11:02.000 And he said, what's a UCT? And he said, Doctor, it's an uncorrelated target.

01:11:09.000 And he said, how many uncorrelated targets do you get a month?

01:11:13.000 They said about 10,000.

01:11:18.000 What does that mean, though?

01:11:20.000 Well, that means that that's what they asked.

01:11:23.000 He said, look, we're here to look for incoming trajectories of ballistic missiles from Russia.

01:11:31.000 So if there is one data point, The system doesn't care.

01:11:36.000 If there are two data points, the system starts looking.

01:11:39.000 If there is a third one, it computes a trajectory.

01:11:43.000 If the trajectory looks like an incoming thing, for example, from Alaska over towards Montana, We're going to alert the fighters.

01:11:54.000 Otherwise, it could be a flock of birds, it could be a weather balloon, it could be anything else.

01:12:02.000 We're not paid to try 10,000 other things.

01:12:06.000 We're here to defend the United States.

01:12:10.000 Well, so who is looking at the other 10,000?

01:12:14.000 Well, that's one thing I was going to say is that you said earlier that you felt that Project Blue Book was fairly transparent, but one of the things that I uncovered when I was investigating this landing case, which was a close encounter of the third kind, witnessed by a police officer in Socorro, New Mexico, 1964,

01:12:29.000 was that the military was on scene within less than an hour.

01:12:34.000 It was Richard T. Holder from White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base area, He documented the landing prints from the landing gear of the spaceship, the so-called craft.

01:12:46.000 Documented with photographs?

01:12:48.000 Yeah, they took photographs.

01:12:49.000 Those photographs exist today?

01:12:49.000 Yeah, they're in the movie.

01:12:50.000 He documents the footprints that corresponded to exactly where the eyewitness reported, the on-duty police officer, where he saw these little childlike beings.

01:13:02.000 They documented all this, and yet they downplayed that aspect of the phenomenon, of the encounter, so much.

01:13:09.000 And I know that because Lonnie Zamora, the police officer, said he was told not to talk about it.

01:13:13.000 Because it's one thing to explain away an unidentified craft.

01:13:17.000 It's another thing to have to explain away beings on the ground.

01:13:21.000 And how did they describe these beings?

01:13:23.000 He said they were small, childlike.

01:13:26.000 There's the Jedi images.

01:13:28.000 Yeah, so that's Officer Lonnie Zamora.

01:13:32.000 They placed rocks around the landing gear imprints to preserve the fresh ground traces, and then there were four of them.

01:13:40.000 Those rocks are still here today.

01:13:42.000 Like, you know, from 1964 today, you'll still see those rocks.

01:13:46.000 They're more in the ground at this point.

01:13:48.000 But they documented, and I have the diagrams, the footprints of the creatures as well.

01:13:53.000 So they knew it was a close encounter of the third kind.

01:13:56.000 How did they describe the creatures?

01:13:57.000 They were these tiny little, they looked like children, and they had white-fitting suits on.

01:14:03.000 White-fitting or tight-fitting?

01:14:04.000 Tight-fitting white suits.

01:14:06.000 Tight-fitting white suits.

01:14:07.000 And what I was going to say to you is...

01:14:09.000 What were their heads like?

01:14:11.000 They were bigger heads, but the description of the beans was that...

01:14:15.000 There was only a couple of newspaper articles that came out regarding the Beans because the Air Force wanted to really downplay the fact that it was a close encounter with the third kind.

01:14:25.000 But that aspect of the encounter leaked out before the military got there to the local newspapers.

01:14:33.000 Officer Lonnie Zamora had cut out those articles describing his description of the beans, and he kept them in a black duffel bag, which I discovered at his home, and I feature those as well in the film.

01:14:44.000 But again, then you had congressional hearings two years later where you had people at Project Blue Book, Quintanilla, denying the fact that there was any substantial evidence that would prove we're not alone.

01:14:55.000 That was a lie.

01:14:56.000 And Quintanilla lied.

01:14:58.000 And Dr. Hynek Tow the party line during his entire time.

01:15:02.000 But then afterwards, he left in 1969, the Air Force, and he founded CUFOS, which basically proves that he did a 180, and he believed that we were not alone.

01:15:12.000 Well, he was waiting for a case like that.

01:15:16.000 I kept telling him.

01:15:18.000 I kept showing him reports from all over the world.

01:15:22.000 And he still said, I can't...

01:15:28.000 You know, I believe those reports, I believe we have the same thing in the US. I convinced him of that.

01:15:34.000 But he was waiting for a case where he could convince Sagan and Menzel and, you know, Dr. Menzel at Harvard and his colleagues in science, because he knew those guys.

01:15:48.000 And they would believe Quintanilla rather than believing Hynek.

01:15:52.000 And, you know, the problem at Socorro was there was only one witness.

01:15:56.000 One witness that saw the beans, but there are a number of witnesses that saw the craft.

01:16:00.000 So the craft, yes.

01:16:02.000 And there were theories that this was an experimental thing from white sands.

01:16:06.000 White sands is, you know, 30 minutes away.

01:16:09.000 And it's full of things.

01:16:11.000 The other explanation was it's a test for a lunar landing, you know, system and so on.

01:16:19.000 It doesn't look anything like the lunar lander.

01:16:22.000 And there was a lunar lander, but it was in California.

01:16:26.000 It wasn't in New Mexico.

01:16:28.000 Egg-shaped craft, okay?

01:16:29.000 It was white.

01:16:30.000 I remember Fravor describing a tic-tac.

01:16:32.000 I was investigating.

01:16:33.000 When that story broke, I was still working on Socorro.

01:16:36.000 Socorro, he described as an egg.

01:16:37.000 I don't know.

01:16:38.000 Did we have tic-tacs back in 1964?

01:16:40.000 Maybe we did.

01:16:41.000 Pretty close.

01:16:41.000 But tic-tac egg.

01:16:43.000 The police officer described it.

01:16:44.000 It had no wings, no tail.

01:16:45.000 It had a blue flame, but when it got to 20 feet off the ground, it went completely silent.

01:16:49.000 No exhaust vents, no wings, no tail.

01:16:52.000 It had a little insignia on it, which we actually show in the film.

01:16:55.000 So this is supposedly...

01:16:57.000 That's not the real symbol.

01:16:59.000 That's a fake symbol that was...

01:17:01.000 Richard T. Holder got to the site, told Lonnie to put a different symbol because they could quickly identify a hoaxster if they were able to.

01:17:11.000 We found the real symbol at the National Archives that was written in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting, which I shared with you, which is an inverted V, let's say an A, two lines here and one line across the top.

01:17:22.000 It's an A. It's featured in the movie.

01:17:24.000 But that was a fake symbol.

01:17:26.000 So you put a fake symbol on it just to see if people were hoaxing it?

01:17:31.000 Well, what he did was he said to the witness...

01:17:34.000 Or they did, rather.

01:17:35.000 It was a good idea, actually.

01:17:36.000 He said, look, let's change the symbol.

01:17:39.000 That way, if there's anybody else claims to have seen this thing and they say, yeah, that's the symbol, we'll be able to quickly identify a hoaxer.

01:17:45.000 So that was the point behind that.

01:17:47.000 That's pretty clever.

01:17:48.000 Yeah, it's pretty clever.

01:17:49.000 Did these things, the beings, the way he described them, did they have the archetypal alien appearance of very small bodies, large eyes?

01:17:57.000 Did they have all the characteristics that you're hearing from these other...

01:18:01.000 He described them as being small, childlike, and then I interviewed the wife.

01:18:06.000 Unfortunately, Lonnie had died before I got to him, but I got interviews with him that were done earlier on radio.

01:18:11.000 But Lonnie's wife said, whatever my husband saw changed him forever.

01:18:17.000 He was never the same, and he went straight to the church right after it happened.

01:18:22.000 I mean, the military was on the way to the scene when he was at the church talking to the pastor about this incident.

01:18:28.000 But she said it changed my husband.

01:18:30.000 He apparently got eye contact with one of the two beings that was standing at the base of the craft.

01:18:35.000 He wouldn't talk to Hynek until he had gone to the church and spoken to him.

01:18:41.000 And it changed his life.

01:18:45.000 It changed Hynek.

01:18:46.000 I mean, at that point, Hynek came back and said, you know, you're right.

01:18:52.000 We have those things, and we have to take it into consideration.

01:18:57.000 So that's really the case he was waiting for, too.

01:19:02.000 To start looking at.

01:19:04.000 Then there was another landing case that happened in 66 in Michigan.

01:19:07.000 So two years after the landing case in Socorro and this one was witnessed by police officers and a whole bunch of people in a college and reporters.

01:19:14.000 That was the infamous Michigan landing.

01:19:17.000 And Dr. Hynek had a huge press conference and explained it as swamp gas.

01:19:23.000 He later said it was one of his biggest regrets.

01:19:26.000 And then Congressman Gerald Ford, who became president of the United States, was like so up in arms about this that he was screaming from the hilltops, you know, how could you?

01:19:37.000 It was his constituents.

01:19:38.000 And they pushed for congressional hearings in the United States.

01:19:41.000 A lot of people don't know that.

01:19:42.000 He was up in arms in what way?

01:19:43.000 He said he was so angry at the Air Force for dismissing it as swamp gas that he pushed for congressional hearings, which we had congressional hearings.

01:19:53.000 And here's the crazy part.

01:19:54.000 This is something we realized in the edit studio.

01:19:56.000 Right at the end of the hearings, the congressional hearings in 1966 in Washington, D.C., as they were departing the building from those hearings, A flying saucer landed at a school in Australia on the other side of the world.

01:20:10.000 That was happening as they were walking out of the building.

01:20:12.000 It's crazy.

01:20:13.000 It was just one of those things where we went, wait a minute, the time...

01:20:16.000 Yeah, that was...

01:20:16.000 Does it appear that these things happen in clusters?

01:20:22.000 Yeah, and, you know, Socorro happened the day after Heineck and I left the Air Force Base in Dayton, Wright-Patterson.

01:20:36.000 We were there for essentially three days.

01:20:39.000 Spent a whole day in the vault, you know, looking at the files and so on.

01:20:44.000 And then after that, we flew back, you know, both of us flew back to Chicago.

01:20:53.000 And next day, phone call from Quintanilla to Hynek, how soon can you be in New Mexico?

01:21:02.000 And he said, why would I go to New Mexico?

01:21:04.000 He said, because something landed in Socorro, and you were there.

01:21:08.000 It landed when, it happened just when we were leaving the Air Force Base.

01:21:14.000 And, I mean, there is nothing you can do about that.

01:21:18.000 I mean, those are coincidences, you know, information coincidences that just happened.

01:21:24.000 I would love to take this opportunity to any of your audience out there.

01:21:28.000 I came across a memos when I was at the National Archives regarding Quintanilla talking to Hynek and Quintanilla was very concerned about a film crew that arrived In Socorro, New Mexico, shortly after the incident, and they didn't really want him talking,

01:21:44.000 but he participated with the film crew, and he even said to Hynek in this memo, he goes, it would be too obvious if I show up there, but why don't you be passing through to Hynek in 1964-65 and just find out what the hell is going on?

01:21:57.000 Why is this police officer, as we told him not to talk about it, participating with the film crew?

01:22:01.000 The film is called Phenomenon 7.1.

01:22:04.000 Phenomenon 7.7 and it was done by a guy named Michael Musto and I can't remember the other guys.

01:22:11.000 It's called Phenomenon 7.7, Empire Studios.

01:22:14.000 I spent four years trying to find this film.

01:22:16.000 If anybody out there knows where they can get their hands on it, it's color film, 16mm of the entire...

01:22:22.000 They interviewed Lonnie and all the people around him just months after that incident.

01:22:26.000 It's the best case in America.

01:22:28.000 Well, you found some incredible footage, like the UN testimony footage.

01:22:34.000 And I lived through that with him watching, you know, what James was doing to try to, by any means, you know, get to the real actual footage and that's incredible.

01:22:47.000 My sister, Kelly Fox, worked as an archivist for several years, digging up never-before-seen archival footage.

01:22:54.000 And one of them, the very man, Lee Spiegel, who put on the 1978 United Nations event with you and Hynek and Coyne and a handful of others, the footage has never seen the light of day.

01:23:06.000 It's just gone.

01:23:07.000 And Gordon Cooper.

01:23:08.000 And Gordon Cooper, and we found that.

01:23:10.000 My sister found that footage, and it was one of the pinnacle moments of production.

01:23:14.000 This footage that had been missing for 40 years, and it's in the movie.

01:23:18.000 And it's color, and it's clear.

01:23:20.000 Yes.

01:23:21.000 Sound is clear.

01:23:22.000 It's perfect.

01:23:22.000 And once we found it, it took a year to get our hands on it.

01:23:25.000 Remember all the stuff we had to go through?

01:23:27.000 Oh, my God.

01:23:28.000 Your audience's eyes would glaze over if I gave you the details.

01:23:30.000 What does it show, specifically?

01:23:32.000 There was a...

01:23:33.000 Well, you tell us about the event at United Nations.

01:23:35.000 It's amazing.

01:23:36.000 But this footage, what is this footage that you found show?

01:23:39.000 Oh, well, you're talking about the film?

01:23:42.000 Yeah.

01:23:44.000 It's a film crew that had a budget from Empire Studios in Los Angeles, traveled to Socorro, New Mexico shortly after the most...

01:23:53.000 Phenomenon 7.7, Michael Musto, Empire Film Studios.

01:23:57.000 I cannot find this film.

01:24:01.000 You have no idea how hard I found.

01:24:02.000 I went and found the guy's wife.

01:24:04.000 He's dead.

01:24:06.000 I befriended her.

01:24:07.000 I spent a year and a half getting to know her.

01:24:09.000 She finally let me into her husband's archives.

01:24:12.000 He had all these, like...

01:24:13.000 Storage facilities.

01:24:14.000 It's 110 degrees with no windows.

01:24:16.000 I'm inside there while she's bawling her eyes out because her husband had just died, and I'm digging through all of his stuff.

01:24:21.000 I looked through there.

01:24:23.000 I contacted the head of the studios.

01:24:25.000 I found out where Empire Studios got bought by other companies.

01:24:28.000 I literally spent the better part of five years, I could not find this film.

01:24:32.000 But it's the best documentation of the best close encounter of the third kind in US history.

01:24:40.000 And it's all filmed in color.

01:24:42.000 One of the things we talked about last night at dinner is Betty and Barney Hill.

01:24:45.000 And I told you that Angela Hill, who's a top UFC fighter, is the granddaughter of Barney Hill, which is crazy.

01:24:55.000 And she didn't tell me until after the podcast.

01:24:57.000 And I was like, what?!

01:24:59.000 I almost wanted to start our podcast back up again and have her just talk about that.

01:25:04.000 I just wanted to talk about her mixed martial arts career.

01:25:08.000 And then that came up and I was like, I can't believe this is real.

01:25:11.000 You're telling me something.

01:25:13.000 You're related to your grandfather was the most famous abduction story ever.

01:25:21.000 Him and his wife, Betty and Barney Hill, the most famous UFO abduction story ever.

01:25:26.000 And that was in, what year was that?

01:25:28.000 61. Yeah, September 1961 in New Hampshire.

01:25:34.000 Yeah, and that is a story, again, that featured the same sort of iconic beings, right?

01:25:41.000 It was very similar.

01:25:43.000 Jacques, you were there with them.

01:25:44.000 You interviewed them.

01:25:45.000 Well, about a year or so later, they contacted me and Dr. Hynek saying that Betty thought that she had some contact with...

01:26:04.000 You know, the phenomenon, it might manifest.

01:26:07.000 It might happen again.

01:26:10.000 And she wanted to do sort of an experiment.

01:26:12.000 So they had some land close to a big lake where they had a little summer place.

01:26:20.000 And so Heine couldn't go there and asked me to go there.

01:26:25.000 And Betty and Barney were there and Dr. Simon, who was the psychiatrist from Boston, who did the hypnosis of both of them separately and really broke the case,

01:26:42.000 was with us.

01:26:44.000 And so we drew a big, you know, circle in the grass.

01:26:50.000 And I had a telescope, a little telescope with me.

01:26:55.000 I had a little table set up and spent the night there waiting for UFOs and fighting mosquitoes because, you know, the time of year in New England, you're going to get mosquitoes.

01:27:07.000 We didn't get any aliens, but we had a lot of time To talk and the next day, spend the next day with Betty and Barney and went through the whole thing.

01:27:18.000 We listened to the tapes again.

01:27:22.000 And, you know, the tapes are terrifying.

01:27:25.000 And there is no question.

01:27:27.000 I mean, people are coming now saying, well, maybe it was a test.

01:27:31.000 Maybe they were, you know, maybe there was...

01:27:33.000 Psychological experiment.

01:27:35.000 That's not true.

01:27:36.000 I think these people were...

01:27:39.000 Their story checks out completely from beginning to end.

01:27:43.000 And I took Dr. Simon aside.

01:27:46.000 And, you know, there are lots of stories of people being regressed hypnotically by whoever, you know.

01:27:53.000 But Dr. Simon was, you know, a psychiatrist during World War II for the army.

01:28:01.000 And he was an expert in hypnosis.

01:28:03.000 And he was a licensed hypnotist.

01:28:06.000 He wasn't just some ufologist who decided to hypnotize people, which is very harmful, by the way.

01:28:14.000 I don't know why people allow that to happen to them.

01:28:17.000 So I took him aside and I said, Doctor, if I had been sitting there in their car on the back seat and here is Barney driving and Betty next to him and they see that,

01:28:34.000 would I have seen the car stop and all these little beings and the UFO stopping them on the road and dragging them out?

01:28:46.000 And he said, I have no way of answering that.

01:28:49.000 I can tell you that by the hypnosis that my patients are telling the truth as they experienced it.

01:29:01.000 I cannot tell you what we would have seen if you and I had been there.

01:29:07.000 I cannot make that jump.

01:29:10.000 And I've never forgotten that.

01:29:12.000 I mean, there could be a type of experience that some phenomena induce that just are not reproducible.

01:29:23.000 And that's the toughest Type of testimony, you know, and how do you make sense of it?

01:29:31.000 Even if you have physical data, you know, the car did stop, you know, you still, I've never forgotten that dialogue with him.

01:29:44.000 A little over a decade later, you have Travis Walton, Snowflake, Arizona.

01:29:50.000 Before we go to that, I have a lot more questions.

01:29:52.000 So when you say this, that if you were there, you might not have experienced it.

01:29:59.000 Are you saying that this could have been something that they only experienced, that maybe even witnesses would not have seen?

01:30:07.000 That this could have been unique only to them.

01:30:09.000 Like, they were chosen for this experience.

01:30:11.000 They were abducted.

01:30:14.000 I've spoken to quite a few witnesses who said that their car stopped on the road.

01:30:21.000 There's a case, you know, two years ago in France that I investigated.

01:30:26.000 Again, the witness didn't report it to the French authorities.

01:30:32.000 Because, you know, witnesses don't want to be laughed at.

01:30:35.000 So they think it's useless because the scientists are blocked.

01:30:39.000 They will never look at it.

01:30:40.000 So they just keep it to themselves.

01:30:43.000 But what happened is she was in a car with two teenage girls.

01:30:50.000 One, you know, her daughter and the daughter of another family.

01:30:54.000 And they were driving and they saw this thing and they...

01:30:58.000 I asked her, did you see any other cars?

01:31:05.000 And she said no.

01:31:07.000 And, well, this was an expressway in France in broad daylight.

01:31:12.000 There must have been other cars.

01:31:14.000 And that often happens, you know, suddenly all the sounds stop.

01:31:20.000 You know, the birds don't sing anymore.

01:31:22.000 There are no dogs barking.

01:31:24.000 You're in the countryside.

01:31:27.000 It's like there's a bubble around you and this thing happens.

01:31:32.000 You have an experience.

01:31:34.000 And we know there were other cars on that expressway.

01:31:38.000 I mean, there's got to be.

01:31:41.000 And it's like it's an isolated thing that's outside of...

01:31:46.000 As if there was another time and space there.

01:31:50.000 So you're looking at perhaps a phenomenon that we just don't have the capability of understanding.

01:31:57.000 Well, you know, it's a goldmine for science.

01:32:01.000 I mean, this is why we need to get the academia.

01:32:05.000 Right, but you're just dealing with anecdotal descriptions.

01:32:09.000 We can't just look at the fighter pilots and say, well, it's a threat because it went around the fighter pilots.

01:32:17.000 How many experiences like this, though, are similar?

01:32:21.000 Where people have these similar stories where out of nowhere...

01:32:24.000 Hundreds.

01:32:25.000 You can talk to any of the groups that gather that kind of data around the world.

01:32:30.000 And it's similar in that everything stops.

01:32:33.000 Yes.

01:32:35.000 It's one of the constants.

01:32:37.000 Really, one of the constants.

01:32:39.000 So what this might be describing is some sort of an ability to control space and time that we don't understand.

01:32:46.000 Or control consciousness, human consciousness, long enough to create an experience.

01:32:54.000 That's what, you know, Dr. John Mack, you know, I got to know him quite well.

01:32:59.000 I read his book many years ago.

01:33:02.000 Yeah.

01:33:04.000 Well, his book, Passport to the Cosmos, is an homage to Passport to Magonia, which was my book of many years ago.

01:33:12.000 We had those conversations.

01:33:14.000 And his take on it was he did a lot of hypnotic regression as a psychiatrist with alien abductees.

01:33:22.000 The thing that was disturbing to me about them, it was actually recommended to me by my friend Maura.

01:33:27.000 She read it.

01:33:28.000 She's like, you gotta read this.

01:33:29.000 This is crazy.

01:33:29.000 These people, they're all having the same story.

01:33:32.000 And she might have even given me the book.

01:33:35.000 But when I read it, that was the thing that struck me, like how similar the stories were.

01:33:41.000 They were, all of them had a pattern that you could follow, and they didn't know each other.

01:33:47.000 They're from different parts of the world.

01:33:52.000 And that's what I'm looking for.

01:33:54.000 I'm not looking for individual cases.

01:33:57.000 I'm a computer science guy.

01:33:59.000 I try to look at patterns and things that will take you to the next level of understanding.

01:34:06.000 You take one case at a time.

01:34:08.000 What was John Mack's conclusion after all his years?

01:34:12.000 John changed.

01:34:13.000 Initially, he got interested because there were all these books about hypnosis and so on.

01:34:22.000 Done by amateurs, people who are not trained in hypnosis.

01:34:27.000 And he started sort of retraining himself to do hypnosis.

01:34:32.000 I asked him if he had used hypnosis in his practice as a psychiatrist, and he said no.

01:34:39.000 He said he had a course in hypnosis of one week, but he never really practiced it.

01:34:46.000 He relearned hypnosis With some of the ufologists who were hypnotizing people.

01:34:54.000 And then gradually found that what they did was very shoddy and was really completely unscientific.

01:35:02.000 I mean, there were some of those books, they were planting the idea, you know, James, tell me about the blue alien you saw yesterday at 235 people.

01:35:15.000 And you don't, if you do hypnosis, you don't lead the witness, you don't do that.

01:35:20.000 So he got disgusted with that and redid it, started to redo it his way.

01:35:26.000 And unfortunately, that's when he was killed.

01:35:29.000 What was his initial idea about what was going on?

01:35:34.000 Initially, he bought the idea that these are aliens from somewhere.

01:35:38.000 I mean, why not?

01:35:39.000 And that they are here to probe our consciousness, to understand humans.

01:35:46.000 And then he gave up on that as he learned, as he did more and more interviews and understood more the process and looked at the data.

01:35:59.000 And what did he decide it was after that, when he was giving up on the idea that they were being probed?

01:36:04.000 I think he was on a whole new track of research.

01:36:10.000 But what was the line of that research?

01:36:13.000 I think he was coming to...

01:36:17.000 Maybe I influenced him a little bit, but he was coming to my idea that we have to look at more than the extraterrestrials That we see in the movies from the 50s, you know, from the 1950s,

01:36:33.000 that this is not it.

01:36:35.000 I mean, we need something more complex if we're going to get the scientific community involved.

01:36:42.000 Meaning not just space travel from space as we know it.

01:36:46.000 It's not some super rocket that comes here.

01:36:48.000 Something interdimensional is more possible.

01:36:51.000 And they are not explorers coming here to pick up a few stones because we have 200,000 well-described cases.

01:37:04.000 So why would you come from...

01:37:07.000 And we're exploring Mars.

01:37:09.000 Now, we're sending a probe.

01:37:13.000 We're sending a couple of probes to the Moon.

01:37:16.000 We're bringing back the stones.

01:37:18.000 But we don't do that every Friday.

01:37:21.000 I mean, once you've done it, you've got it.

01:37:24.000 I mean, why would you keep doing it?

01:37:26.000 So what is your speculation?

01:37:29.000 What do you think is happening?

01:37:31.000 I don't see myself as, you know, the scientist who should speak on that because, you know, I know too much about the work of teams.

01:37:48.000 You know, I've worked with many teams in Silicon Valley.

01:37:52.000 I've financed a number of companies there in medicine, in space research, in computing, of course.

01:38:02.000 It takes a team.

01:38:04.000 We need to get...

01:38:05.000 What I can do is I can bring some of the history, like the Socorro thing where I try to help you in the movie.

01:38:16.000 But because I know the history, I've met many of these people, I've met the researchers, I know what they went through, you know, including the Air Force officers, you know, I mean, they were under extraordinary pressure.

01:38:29.000 So I can bring that context.

01:38:32.000 And I can bring, I would know how to put the AI component on top of the files.

01:38:39.000 But then other people would have to work with it to come to a theory.

01:38:45.000 I understand that, but about all the years of studying, surely you must have developed some sort of an idea of what you think this is.

01:38:54.000 Well, I'm a student of that material.

01:39:02.000 There is some form of consciousness out there that's teaching us something.

01:39:10.000 I could show you...

01:39:12.000 Teaching us something.

01:39:13.000 Yeah.

01:39:14.000 They are teaching us something.

01:39:15.000 Like, you know what you have in the movie with those kids.

01:39:18.000 I mean, that's what the kids are saying.

01:39:20.000 I asked Jacques this exact question.

01:39:23.000 I remember where I was when I did it.

01:39:25.000 It was in a cafe.

01:39:27.000 In Silicon Valley, I was with Dr. Peter Sturrock regarding some metal stuff, and I looked at you and I said, Jacques, you know, God, can you please tell me what's going on?

01:39:39.000 And you said, regarding government secrecy, it's two points, and I'll get to yours in a quick second, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you said to me, James, look at the government secrecy this way.

01:39:50.000 It's not so much a question of what they know.

01:39:53.000 It's more of a question of what the government doesn't know.

01:39:57.000 They can reveal that we have structured craft of unknown origin.

01:40:04.000 That exhibit flight characteristics that are light years advanced from anything we have.

01:40:08.000 They have no wings, no tail, no visible means of propulsion.

01:40:11.000 They can go from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye.

01:40:15.000 There are some reports they can travel underwater at hypersonic speeds.

01:40:19.000 They go into space.

01:40:21.000 We don't know who they are, where they come from, or what they want.

01:40:24.000 There's no governing body that wants to disclose that nature of reality because suddenly, and I'm not saying it's a threat because clearly if it was, we'd know about it.

01:40:33.000 That, you know, we can't...

01:40:35.000 These fly rings are on our fastest jets.

01:40:37.000 We can't disclose that kind of information.

01:40:40.000 And the other thing you said to me, and correct me if I'm wrong again, because this is what you're getting at, what's the bigger picture?

01:40:45.000 What's going on?

01:40:47.000 And you said, think of it this way, James.

01:40:50.000 It's an omnipresent intelligence that has the ability to manifest itself in a multitude of ways.

01:40:59.000 It's nuts and bolts, but it's also psychic.

01:41:03.000 Fravor talked about that...

01:41:05.000 That object went to his cap point.

01:41:07.000 I mean, he said it made the hair on the back of his neck stand up straight because those coordinates weren't known.

01:41:12.000 Explain what you're saying to people so this is a standalone podcast so they know what you're talking about.

01:41:16.000 So sorry, yeah.

01:41:17.000 So David Fravor, who's the Navy pilot that had that dramatic encounter with a tic-tac off the coast of San Diego back in 2004 that was also documented with the radar and visual confirmation, but also filmed on another subsequent flight just moments afterwards.

01:41:35.000 But he said that this object, first of all, reacted to him when he was flying down to intercept it, but then after it flew rings around him, and he said it made a joke out of the fastest plane that Navy had at the time, it went to their cap point, which is the predetermined Latin longitude strategic point of the military exercise.

01:41:54.000 So how on earth, he said, how on earth could this object know where that point was?

01:41:59.000 So what I'm saying is there's a psychic, it's a nuts and bolts phenomenon, but it's also psychic.

01:42:04.000 Is what I'm saying, A fairly accurate assessment of what's going on?

01:42:09.000 Absolutely.

01:42:10.000 What gives you the impression that they're teaching us something?

01:42:16.000 Well, that You know, I could give you a couple of, you know, quick reactions.

01:42:25.000 I mean, they are appearing to children.

01:42:28.000 You know, those children are going to grow up and they will remember what they've seen and so on.

01:42:33.000 But there is another...

01:42:35.000 There is an analytical answer that, you know, one of the things I did when I had good databases, filtering out...

01:42:45.000 I mean, I think we all agree that 90% of the cases...

01:42:49.000 Are not true UFOs, okay?

01:42:52.000 So, you know, there are things, the moon seen through a layer of clouds.

01:42:57.000 Ball lightning.

01:42:58.000 Ball lightning, whatever.

01:43:00.000 All the things that the scientists say.

01:43:01.000 Yeah, that's true.

01:43:03.000 90% of it should be removed.

01:43:06.000 Very, very few hoaxes, by the way.

01:43:09.000 Very, very few.

01:43:10.000 Because if you're going to come up with a hoax, you're going to come up with something better, you know, something better than that, that, you know, you can reveal and you can laugh and so on.

01:43:19.000 This is not it, you know.

01:43:21.000 You don't hoax about something that's that terrifying that people can check.

01:43:30.000 I started looking at patterns the way you look at patterns in science.

01:43:34.000 In other words, you take, you know, you do regressions.

01:43:38.000 The phenomenon is not constant.

01:43:41.000 It goes through waves two months or three months over a country like France or over Florida or over, you know, Japan.

01:43:51.000 And it's very intense.

01:43:54.000 And after about two or three months, they go somewhere else or they disappear.

01:43:59.000 So you have this structure.

01:44:03.000 And I started looking at the structure to see if it correlated with anything we know.

01:44:08.000 So I started looking at, does it correlate with Mars?

01:44:12.000 Mars right now is in the sky because it's close to us.

01:44:16.000 It's a conjunction.

01:44:19.000 Of Mars and maybe when Mars is closest to us, you know, we can, you know, it's easier for them to come here or something.

01:44:31.000 There is something that happens that facilitates.

01:44:36.000 That broke down.

01:44:38.000 That correlation didn't quite work.

01:44:40.000 And it looked like it was almost correlated but not quite.

01:44:47.000 And there is something in psychology called a schedule of reinforcement.

01:44:53.000 If you want to teach, say, a chimp to do something, to, for example, pick up a ball or something, every time he picks up the ball, you give him some food. 1.00

01:45:05.000 So you reward every good action.

01:45:09.000 It works with kids, too.

01:45:10.000 I mean, it works really well with human beings.

01:45:13.000 That's why we have advertising.

01:45:16.000 But you reinforce the action that you want to encourage.

01:45:22.000 Except that if you reinforce every instance where the chimp picks up the ball, after a while he goes play with something else. 0.96

01:45:31.000 And he forgets the experiment.

01:45:34.000 If you want to Induce a behavior that will stay there forever, that will never be forgotten.

01:45:43.000 You have to have some randomness.

01:45:45.000 In other words, you don't always reinforce the same thing.

01:45:50.000 And sometimes he picks up the ball fine and he doesn't get the food.

01:45:55.000 And, you know, so you make it random.

01:46:00.000 And that, you know, that the psychologist who did those experiments was Skinner.

01:46:09.000 Dr. Skinner published all these experiments.

01:46:12.000 And that became gospel for the psychologist.

01:46:16.000 A lot of psychological experiments are run that way of reinforcement of behavior.

01:46:23.000 And behavior control.

01:46:25.000 And that got applied to a lot of different fields.

01:46:29.000 Well, that's what the schedule of UFO cases, if you look around the world, not at just one country, not just at Air Force pilots or the Navy or something.

01:46:44.000 You have to look at the whole thing if you want to see that pattern.

01:46:48.000 The pattern is a worldwide reinforcement of behavior.

01:46:53.000 The behavior seems to be you need to let go of some of the things you're doing, and you need to let go of technology that's harmful, and you need maybe to be prepared to go into space.

01:47:11.000 I mean, that's my interpretation.

01:47:13.000 Where are you getting this interpretation?

01:47:16.000 From what aspect of these experiences has given you that interpretation?

01:47:20.000 From the places where that reinforcement has taken place and the appearance of the phenomenon.

01:47:27.000 Because the phenomenon is just at the border of what we can recognize.

01:47:33.000 It's a little bit weird.

01:47:35.000 But they are basically humanoids.

01:47:37.000 I mean, they are not monsters with tentacles and so on.

01:47:42.000 They are humanoid.

01:47:44.000 And the people like, you know, Lani, Lani Zamora, and they think that there is communication, that they can look at the eyes of that creature and they get something.

01:48:00.000 You know, they get that reinforcement.

01:48:03.000 I want to say something about the Africa case because I was in China a couple times doing filming for the phenomenon and I learned of this landing case.

01:48:14.000 It's known in China as Meng Jaogua.

01:48:17.000 And I didn't prep any of the Chinese people that I was hanging out with about what I'd filmed already in Africa, the landing case and the telepathic message that these beings allegedly gave the children.

01:48:30.000 And I got this interpreter was telling me what this landing case in Africa, 1994, same year in China as in Africa.

01:48:38.000 And this guy, Meng Xiaogua, got the same environmental message in China as the children got.

01:48:43.000 And I got goosebumps.

01:48:44.000 I'm sitting there going, you got to be kidding me.

01:48:47.000 And here's another crazy part.

01:48:49.000 One of those wow moments in the film, I was in Africa meeting with Judy Bates, who's now the headmistress.

01:48:54.000 And she said, well, come into my studio.

01:48:56.000 I'm going to show you some drawings.

01:48:57.000 I keep them in a very special place of what the kids saw that day.

01:49:01.000 And she's taking these drawings out of these beans. 0.95

01:49:03.000 And, you know, the quintessential big black eyes and big head.

01:49:08.000 And even at one point, it had these two, indicating these two little apostrophes that would indicate some sort of brain telepathic wave going out from the head.

01:49:17.000 And fascinating, I took photographs of my iPhone.

01:49:20.000 About two months later, I was in Australia doing the landing case in 1966, and I came across these cave paintings that I was learning about from locals, from the Wangina, and I saw these drawings that were thousands of years old.

01:49:34.000 Of the exact same beans that I just saw in Africa.

01:49:38.000 And I literally had the hair on the back of my neck, and I'm going, wow, this is the Wangina's. 1.00

01:49:43.000 They were drawing these cape.

01:49:45.000 How could...

01:49:45.000 What is the name of these photos?

01:49:48.000 Wangina.

01:49:49.000 Wangina? 0.98

01:49:50.000 I'm not sure exactly, but it's Australia Cave Art.

01:49:54.000 You've seen the Wangina.

01:49:55.000 You did the book on...

01:49:58.000 Yes, ancient.

01:50:00.000 Has there been a cataloging of various crafts and various beings?

01:50:06.000 And how many versions of them are there?

01:50:08.000 Like how many versions of crafts have been seen?

01:50:10.000 I know there's a square that appears inside of a circle.

01:50:14.000 There's the ones that look like the tic-tac.

01:50:19.000 There's the discs.

01:50:21.000 There's a cigar.

01:50:22.000 Cigar, right.

01:50:24.000 I've got video footage of one of those that a guy took and sent to me.

01:50:27.000 Really impressive.

01:50:28.000 You have it here?

01:50:29.000 Salida, Colorado, 1995. Tim Edwards, he can look it up.

01:50:34.000 It's available somewhere?

01:50:35.000 Yeah.

01:50:35.000 So these are the...

01:50:36.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:50:37.000 What the fuck? 1.00

01:50:38.000 See? 1.00

01:50:39.000 Look at that one down at the bottom there.

01:50:41.000 Look at those.

01:50:43.000 You said these are from Australia?

01:50:44.000 Yeah, those are from Australia.

01:50:45.000 Yeah, real similar.

01:50:47.000 And I literally saw the drawings, and there's one in particular that just really gave me goosebumps.

01:50:53.000 And I don't know exactly where it is, but it had the face and it had these two kind of apostrophes indicating some sort of communication telepathic.

01:51:03.000 Just crazy.

01:51:04.000 I mean, that's what the children had drawn.

01:51:06.000 Look at those eyes.

01:51:06.000 Those were thousands of years old.

01:51:09.000 Thousands of years.

01:51:10.000 It's very strange.

01:51:10.000 Isn't it crazy?

01:51:11.000 There's also this thought that human beings will one day be something different, right?

01:51:17.000 We used to be some sort of an ancient hominid.

01:51:19.000 Now we're this.

01:51:20.000 And if you extrapolate, if you go from what we used to be, we're hairy and muscular and very ape-like to what we are now, which is softer, our heads are larger, we're far more intelligent.

01:51:33.000 If it just keeps going in that direction and if we keep with our integration with technology and electronics like that we might be something very different in the future and it's probably going to look like an iconic alien.

01:51:47.000 There's a lot of speculation that what we're looking at is us in the future and that these things are what we are going to become or what we are if there are multiple timelines that are running simultaneously In different dimensions, that these things are what a human being becomes in these other timelines a million years from now,

01:52:07.000 a hundred thousand years from now, whatever it is.

01:52:09.000 You know, you guys were talking earlier about the time freezes during encounters.

01:52:13.000 This is a little side story I want to tell you about.

01:52:15.000 When I brought the children together in Africa as adults, they had time to process their encounter and, you know, they were adults.

01:52:23.000 They could articulate better.

01:52:24.000 They'd had 20 years to think about it.

01:52:26.000 And they said, I said, put me there.

01:52:29.000 I just, I want to be there.

01:52:30.000 It's such an exciting moment to hear from people who got within three feet of a potential being of another world.

01:52:36.000 And they said, well, if you've ever been out in the remote wilderness and you come across and you have a rare sighting of a wild animal, There's this moment of intrigue and curiosity, almost like time stops.

01:52:50.000 And what you're looking at is just as curious and intrigued about you as you are of them.

01:52:57.000 And they said, that's what it was like with these beings.

01:53:00.000 That they were literally standing there and the beings were looking at all the children.

01:53:04.000 Their eyes were scanning, just moving.

01:53:06.000 And there was this moment of curiosity.

01:53:08.000 They did not feel threatened.

01:53:10.000 It was a benign encounter, but the time had stopped and it was just mystery, intrigue, curiosity.

01:53:18.000 So with some of my colleagues, we decided to go back to, you know, and reinvestigate some of the primary cases because there is something missing in all this.

01:53:33.000 We're, you know, we're missing some clues.

01:53:36.000 And so we are about to publish a book called The Best Kept Secret because some of it, some of what we've uncovered was kept secret and is still secret.

01:53:52.000 Even from, you know, the ufologists who've really researched all that stuff.

01:53:57.000 It's going to be published, you know, early next year.

01:54:01.000 But we're pre, you know, people can pre-order it on Amazon.

01:54:07.000 It's called the Best Kept Secret.

01:54:11.000 And what we've done is to go back to some of the key cases and some new cases where we found that there may have been some superficial information about it, but most of the information was kept hidden by the witnesses.

01:54:32.000 Now, you know, we keep talking about cover-up, cover-up by the government, which is true.

01:54:38.000 But the witnesses are not stupid. 0.86

01:54:42.000 They don't want to be, you know, laughed at by scientists on, you know, six o'clock news. 0.78

01:54:48.000 So they may give you some report because they think it's their duty to report something to the police or the air force and so on.

01:54:58.000 But they won't tell you the whole story.

01:55:02.000 And if you want to know the whole story, you've got to go there, which may take a couple of days.

01:55:09.000 You've done that.

01:55:10.000 And you've got to, you know, gain their trust and sit in the kitchen.

01:55:15.000 And if you're lucky, they give you a cup of coffee and you talk.

01:55:20.000 And you talk to their kids, and you talk to, you know, you get to know them, and they get to know you, and if you're genuine, if they can see that you're not playing any games, you will eventually get the whole story.

01:55:34.000 And we've been doing that.

01:55:36.000 And that's what the book is about.

01:55:38.000 And it's going to change history.

01:55:41.000 It's going to change the history of the phenomenon.

01:55:45.000 How so?

01:55:45.000 It builds on...

01:55:47.000 The human element.

01:55:49.000 The human element.

01:55:49.000 But how so?

01:55:50.000 How is it going to change history?

01:55:52.000 How is it going to change it?

01:55:55.000 That, number one, the structure of the information is amazing, the real structure, not just what the police blotter or the, you know, Air Force teletype.

01:56:09.000 It's not necessarily about the object.

01:56:13.000 It's not necessarily about, you know, what somebody heard.

01:56:18.000 You've got to look at, and we found especially one case that's extraordinary.

01:56:27.000 The people had never, never talked.

01:56:31.000 And it came to us and we've been studying it carefully from every angle.

01:56:38.000 And then we've been looking for patterns around that case.

01:56:43.000 Again, that's the best kept secret.

01:56:46.000 People can pre-order it.

01:56:48.000 But what is it about the structure?

01:56:51.000 What is so astonishing about the structure of the information that you're getting from these accounts?

01:57:01.000 I mean, you have to read the book, okay?

01:57:04.000 But what you would find was a commonality of the structure has to do with the intrusion in the life of someone.

01:57:17.000 This is not something that, oh, by the way, I saw a flying saucer yesterday, and now I'm going about my business.

01:57:25.000 How profound the information goes inside the consciousness.

01:57:30.000 Even those pilots are changed.

01:57:33.000 They are changed permanently.

01:57:37.000 And the information, the thing stays with them.

01:57:43.000 Talked to the witness 40 years later, which we've done.

01:57:47.000 And it brings back, I mean, their memory is completely clear.

01:57:52.000 You know, they know exactly where they were, what they were doing.

01:57:55.000 Well, because it's such a profound experience, right?

01:57:58.000 Yes.

01:57:58.000 But what about the structure of the information that's so astonishing that's going to change history?

01:58:08.000 Both the materials, and we continue to look at the, you have to look at the materials at that level, not simply that, oh goody, you know, we can take it to the lab and we'll analyze it and we'll patent it and, you know, 0.86

01:58:24.000 we'll sell it as a new weapon, which is sort of the, you know, the stupid way of looking at this.

01:58:31.000 These materials are earth materials, in most cases. 0.87

01:58:39.000 We're looking at where the complexity is and why they were there at that particular time.

01:58:48.000 That's certainly one aspect of it.

01:58:51.000 We don't understand why these materials would be associated with an instrument or a vehicle that does what those things do.

01:59:02.000 The situation also is structured in such a way that it ties into our culture.

01:59:12.000 And, you know, in most cases, there is no anthropologist, you know, with the team that goes out there, whether it's a military or scientists or ufologists.

01:59:22.000 They don't bring in an anthropologist.

01:59:26.000 When you look at the traditions, the local traditions, when you look You can begin to tie the details of the sightings to what would be in the conscious.

01:59:40.000 I saw that in Brazil.

01:59:41.000 I mean, in Brazil, you can't just go there and ask people, you know, to fill out a questionnaire, you know, about how many degrees to the left of the North Pole was it, you know.

01:59:55.000 It doesn't work that way.

01:59:57.000 You have to get into the culture.

01:59:59.000 The phenomenon works on the culture at a very deep level.

02:00:04.000 I think that's what we're showing.

02:00:06.000 We've taken apart that mechanism.

02:00:09.000 These beings are having these interactions with people.

02:00:12.000 They're teaching these people something.

02:00:14.000 And that this is becoming more and more prevalent and we're learning something from this experience.

02:00:21.000 And the more you have stories like the 2017 story in the New York Times, the more this comes, it's almost like a slow trickle effect of getting the information out.

02:00:32.000 And changing our behavior.

02:00:36.000 Do you think it's preparing people for more frequent or more prominent visits?

02:00:44.000 I don't know.

02:00:46.000 Speculation?

02:00:47.000 I can't answer that.

02:00:51.000 Well, one of the things that I'm very optimistic about is that we're living in extremely divided times right now.

02:00:57.000 And this is a story that transcends politics, transcends religion and borders.

02:01:06.000 Whether people believe it or not, they're curious.

02:01:09.000 And I think, ultimately, when this story is starting to come out and there are people behind the scenes working diligently to get it to come out, That it's going to have a very unifying effect on humanity.

02:01:20.000 I mean, I sound like a group hug moment here, but I actually do believe that it'll force us to look at ourselves as who we really are.

02:01:28.000 One race, one planet.

02:01:30.000 And that there seems to be this external consciousness that is affecting our evolution somehow. 1.00

02:01:37.000 On a planet that's extraordinarily fragile, you know, I mean it could be impacted literally, physically by a lot of things and impacted by our stupidity. 0.98

02:01:52.000 I mean there were three cases in history where the, you know, the alert went To go bomb the Soviet Union. 0.99

02:02:01.000 I mean, three cases where the bombers were recalled because one guy thought, this doesn't make sense.

02:02:08.000 I mean, he had images involving him and he left the compound to go outside and, you know, sort of readjust and realize that what he was looking at was a simulation of a Russian attack and that the bombers were up and ready to open the envelope.

02:02:26.000 In other words, they mistook the phenomenon for a threat.

02:02:29.000 For a threat.

02:02:31.000 But everything in the defense establishment is oriented towards a threat.

02:02:38.000 If you don't have a threat, you don't need all that.

02:02:40.000 That's the problem with the way you were describing the way we're approaching this phenomenon, that we're approaching it like it's a threat.

02:02:47.000 And that instead of the military looking at this, there should be the scientific community that has access to this information.

02:02:57.000 The military has very, very good platforms for observation, you know, like those infrared cameras, like the radar, like all the sophistication that they have, the tracking systems, the satellites.

02:03:11.000 That's very useful.

02:03:13.000 But, you know, I'd rather have a cup of coffee with the The guy in his trailer who has seen something and can show me the traces in his backyard, you know, because I can do something with that.

02:03:27.000 What I was going to say is, you know, you look at what they do, but you also look at what they don't do.

02:03:33.000 And one of the huge moments for me, and you could extrapolate on this, is when I met with Senator Reid, he kind of accidentally drops this huge bombshell where he talks about The most astonishing aspect of the phenomenon,

02:03:49.000 as far as he determined from ATIP, that secret Pentagon program, was that they were not only observed over super-sensitive military weapons installations, but they were shutting our nukes off.

02:04:02.000 And Senator Reid went as far as to say in a couple of cases that he looked into, if the President of the United States wanted to launch, he couldn't have launched.

02:04:10.000 And I interviewed one of these officers, Colonel Robert Salas, who's a launch control officer, during the height of the Cold War, and he said, well, the message was pretty clear as far as I was concerned.

02:04:23.000 I said, what do you mean?

02:04:24.000 He goes, kind of like them taking matches out of the hands of a baby.

02:04:27.000 You know, I mean, you know, it's kind of interesting.

02:04:33.000 They give these messages to the children.

02:04:34.000 Look, I'm not saying that definitively one way or the other this is exactly what's going on, but I get...

02:04:39.000 Messages to the children, landing cases with children.

02:04:42.000 Then you've got these benign encounters and then shutting our nukes off.

02:04:47.000 I don't know.

02:04:48.000 I mean, that has to mean something, right?

02:04:52.000 Well, it's a powerful signal.

02:04:57.000 Is it a show of force or is it a show of, hey, you shouldn't be playing around with these things?

02:05:02.000 Or is it both?

02:05:05.000 You know, for a while, I mean, we're testing those facilities.

02:05:08.000 So for a while, when I was bringing that up, people would say, well, you know, we've got incursions over those platforms to see if the guards are really reacting to detecting a threat and so on.

02:05:24.000 Again, the threat.

02:05:26.000 But that's one thing, to fly over a nuclear facility or a storage area.

02:05:32.000 Where you have nuclear bombs, it's another to overcome the code of the missiles, one by one.

02:05:41.000 And you have cases in your movie where all the missiles, all the silos were turned off, one by one.

02:05:50.000 And as you said, if they had wanted to launch, they couldn't have launched the missiles.

02:05:56.000 That's not something that, you know, is just an exercise.

02:06:02.000 Especially since the Russians said the same thing.

02:06:04.000 Yeah, and this is something that the general public has always, because I'm Joe Public myself, I mean, I'm a guy, a civilian that just wanted to get to the bottom of it.

02:06:12.000 I sort of stumbled upon this thing accidentally, and now I can't walk away from it because I'm going, this is like the biggest story of modern history.

02:06:19.000 I think that every man, woman, and child is entitled to know this.

02:06:23.000 But I would always ask these generals every time I'd meet with these military guys, and I've asked them all around the world, why are you guys covering this up?

02:06:32.000 And they said, look, you can't look at it that way.

02:06:34.000 You have to understand from our perspective.

02:06:36.000 We are employed by the public to protect you.

02:06:41.000 For us to disclose that we have these unidentified objects whizzing around in our airspace with impunity, flying rings around our fastest jets, We don't know who they are, where they come from.

02:06:53.000 That's just not in our nature to disclose that to the public.

02:06:56.000 That's going to open up the floodgate to a bunch of questions of which we don't have answers.

02:07:00.000 So you can kind of justifiably so see why the secrecy has lasted as long as it has.

02:07:06.000 But it's starting to come out now, and I think we're living in pretty exciting times with it all.

02:07:11.000 I really do.

02:07:13.000 You know, I don't think I've ever mentioned this to you.

02:07:16.000 It's a little anecdote, but I had a friend who was one of the early researchers in France, an engineer named Aimé Michel, who was something of a philosopher, and he was compiling all this data.

02:07:31.000 And he went to the Air Force, and the French Air Force was pretty open with their cases.

02:07:40.000 And the man was Carlos Clairouin.

02:07:43.000 I remember his name.

02:07:44.000 This was from the mid-60s.

02:07:47.000 And they would have lunch, you know, which is a thing you do in France.

02:07:50.000 You know, you have lunch with somebody and then you talk.

02:07:53.000 And he convinced Clairouin that, you know, go to your superiors and find out, you know, we should tell the public about this and we should open it up, you know, and we should...

02:08:07.000 We should tell them this is going on.

02:08:10.000 And Clairouin said, well, you know, it's a good idea.

02:08:14.000 Let's have lunch again in one month.

02:08:16.000 You know, I'll tell you what I find out.

02:08:19.000 They get to the same restaurant a month later, and Michel says, what did you find out from your superiors?

02:08:28.000 He said, it turned out my superiors told me to go to the Americans.

02:08:34.000 So I went to the U.S. Embassy in Paris, and I talked to my counterpart in the military, and we're not going to open the files.

02:08:46.000 And Michel said, why not?

02:08:48.000 He said, well, the Americans think that it would open up too many things, you know, that we couldn't control, that society is not ready, that people would be scared, people would panic,

02:09:05.000 you know, that religious ideas would float around, people would fight each other.

02:09:11.000 About, you know, what's happening in their consciousness and in their faith and in their life.

02:09:20.000 And we couldn't control it.

02:09:23.000 And, you know, they told us to shut it up.

02:09:28.000 How long ago was this?

02:09:30.000 64, 63, 64. So the time is ripe.

02:09:35.000 It's crazy that this has been going on for so long and it's so remarkably consistent.

02:09:40.000 You talk to people on the street, you know, they're not scared of this.

02:09:44.000 And the vast majority of people believe that the government knows a lot more than what they're admitting to.

02:09:48.000 Well, they're admitting they know a lot more than they ever admitted before.

02:09:52.000 They are, exactly.

02:09:53.000 And one of the things I really wanted to establish, if you'll notice, I have a very dramatic encounter at the beginning of the film, which occurs in 1955. It was with Colonel William T. Coleman, who later became public spokes officer for Project Blue Book, which is the Air Force's investigatory arm for UFOs.

02:10:08.000 And you listen to his account of this encounter, this really dramatic encounter.

02:10:14.000 It started at a duration of about nine minutes.

02:10:16.000 It started at 9,000 feet.

02:10:18.000 It ended at treetop level at what he called maximum continuous power in a B-25 bomber over Alabama in 1955. And he describes, like, he had three engineers in the plane with him.

02:10:29.000 They're at treetop level flying flat out, and they literally thought they're going to hit this disk.

02:10:34.000 And they're looking right at it in broad daylight going...

02:10:36.000 Where are the wings?

02:10:38.000 Where are the exhaust ports?

02:10:39.000 Where's the propulsion?

02:10:41.000 How on earth is this object flying?

02:10:43.000 And you listen to his description of it, and then you fast forward, because we bookend it, to David Fravor off the coast of San Diego, and their description of the flight, the observed technology, is identical to what was documented in 1955. We're clearly dealing with a technology that's light years advanced.

02:11:05.000 It's the same description of witnesses back in the 40s and 50s.

02:11:08.000 It's what's happening exactly today.

02:11:10.000 So I just wanted to mention that because a lot of people are like, oh, clearly it's some technology that Skunk Works are working on.

02:11:19.000 I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

02:11:20.000 This is the same stuff that's been going on in the 40s and it's happening today.

02:11:24.000 Okay.

02:11:24.000 But we have to make sure that if there is, quote, disclosure, that it's not just the next chapter of the cover-up, because there are things that haven't come out, you know, like Senator Reid told you on your movie.

02:11:42.000 There are things that have not come out that should come out.

02:11:45.000 That has been, again, kept hidden, again, from fear that people would overreact or something.

02:11:55.000 Or simply things that they haven't told their own superiors.

02:11:59.000 Is there a concern that some of it would be disinformation, that they would make up some sort of a story to try to cover things up?

02:12:07.000 Well...

02:12:09.000 I don't know, but you could orient it to, you know, a message that would be both interesting, but reassuring superficially, and again, organize it around the threat.

02:12:25.000 And, you know, again, that message of reacting to the threat, it makes sense for the military, but the cases that they are working on are only 10% of the database.

02:12:39.000 You should look at the other 90%. 1.00

02:12:41.000 You know, I interviewed this general, Parviz Jafari.

02:12:49.000 He was an Iranian general who had that dramatic UFO encounter over Tehran in 1976. And at the time, I was more focused on the encounter itself and how extraordinary it was.

02:12:59.000 And then Parviz Jafari, while piloting this F-4 Phantom jet, tries to shoot at the UFO. And he suddenly realizes, maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

02:13:09.000 And his controls freeze up on him.

02:13:12.000 And he has this really dramatic encounter where he talks about he was going to eject the plane, and like, you know, why did I try shooting at this thing?

02:13:18.000 I mean, it knew he was about to shoot at it, according to him.

02:13:21.000 And ten years after I interviewed Parviz Jafari, just looking for some sort of additional material for the credit roll at the end, I found this really powerful statement from Parviz, and he goes, he was reflecting back on the incident, and he said,

02:13:37.000 my biggest regret was that I tried, instead of making peaceful contact, instead of trying to make peaceful contact, I tried to shoot this thing.

02:13:46.000 And I wish I could go back and have tried to make peace.

02:13:49.000 It's a really powerful statement coming from an Iranian general about an incredibly dramatic encounter.

02:13:55.000 You know, just reflecting back on why is it that we have this stance of, hey, anything that's unidentified in our airspace must be seen as a threat and we have to go after it and shoot at it.

02:14:10.000 I mean, that's not the kind of contact I'd like to...

02:14:12.000 I don't want that representing me, you know?

02:14:15.000 Also, I don't think it would work very well.

02:14:18.000 No.

02:14:20.000 But there have been cases where they shot Where they shot what?

02:14:27.000 A UFO. Someone shot a UFO? Yeah.

02:14:30.000 1952 over the White House.

02:14:32.000 Yeah.

02:14:34.000 I almost put this in the movie, and Jacques and I went back and forth on this for a long time, and I'm so glad you brought this up.

02:14:40.000 Yeah, because I said to Jacques...

02:14:41.000 You had that fight.

02:14:42.000 Yeah, we kind of did.

02:14:44.000 Please, tell us the story, because it's amazing.

02:14:47.000 You were right to keep it at that level, because...

02:14:53.000 In the 80s, there were congressional hearings, not about UFOs, but about something that I was doing professionally, which is building civilian computer networks for crisis management, for industrial crisis management.

02:15:11.000 And we were funded, I mean, the company I created was funded to develop essentially the, you know, the equivalent of computer conferencing we have today on Facebook.

02:15:23.000 This was way before the web was invented, in the, again, the mid-80s, to link together all the nuclear power plants in the major countries, five countries, including Japan.

02:15:39.000 When it was against the Japanese law to have Japanese data outside Japan and for them to be on that network, the data had to be on our computer, which was in California.

02:15:55.000 We operated that network for three years and this was a closed network.

02:16:01.000 It wasn't accessible by people outside.

02:16:03.000 It was just operated by the international, you know, Industry, essentially, of atomic power.

02:16:14.000 And we, by the way, detected a number of flaws.

02:16:18.000 This was after the Three Mile Island accident, you know, that could have done a lot of damage.

02:16:25.000 And people were scared and they wanted to share the information and we were essentially the Facebook equivalent to that industry.

02:16:35.000 So I was asked to testify at the Algor hearings on emergency management.

02:16:43.000 And I and another little company were the only civilians there, or the only non-government people there.

02:16:52.000 All the others were from, you know, the three later agencies, the CIA, the NRO, the other agencies, or FEMA, you know, the Emergency Management Administration and so on.

02:17:07.000 And that was extraordinary because those were the top people who would manage an emergency other than war.

02:17:16.000 I mean, they told us, you know, don't even go into the nuclear war thing because even in nuclear war, most of the damage is environmental damage.

02:17:28.000 Which I didn't know.

02:17:30.000 It's the amount of dust that kills you.

02:17:33.000 It's not necessarily the bomb that kills you.

02:17:36.000 It's what happens after the bomb.

02:17:39.000 So we were just looking at, you know, civilian casualties and civilian crises.

02:17:46.000 And there I met a number of people who were the people in the government who would be handling, you know, nationwide or international crises like the Berlin crisis,

02:18:02.000 the people who had been there in the days of the Berlin crisis were there and so on.

02:18:06.000 How do you structure the information?

02:18:08.000 To get all the people who need to know, I mean, everybody goes inside into a bunker, and then the bankers communicate somehow, and then you get in touch with other countries, you get their experts, and then you try to manage the situation.

02:18:24.000 Like, suppose a big meteorite falls.

02:18:28.000 It's the size of half of Chicago.

02:18:31.000 What do you do after that?

02:18:33.000 And government needs to continue.

02:18:37.000 One of the people there was an expert who had worked under five administrations managing the structure of crisis management for the U.S. government.

02:18:47.000 He introduced me to Arthur Lundahl.

02:18:51.000 Arthur Landau was a legendary member of the intelligence community.

02:18:57.000 He was knighted by the Queen of England.

02:18:59.000 He's one of two or three Americans who were knighted.

02:19:03.000 And then his buddies at the CIA used to call him Sir Arthur of the Light Table because a lot of the things he did was with negatives, you know, with satellite photographs that were on the light table.

02:19:17.000 He's the one who discovered the missiles in Cuba.

02:19:21.000 And briefed President Kennedy, showed him where that was and why there were missiles and not just trees.

02:19:33.000 It takes a lot of training, it turns out.

02:19:36.000 You can't just look at one of those pictures and say, ah, you know, that's a missile.

02:19:40.000 He was the one who was sent by the US to brief Charles de Gaulle, President de Gaulle, about the U-2 shutdown over the Soviet Union.

02:19:53.000 And we became friends because I was introduced by the people from the The Al Gore hearings.

02:20:03.000 They knew what I was working on.

02:20:06.000 And he had been a pioneer within the intelligence community in getting all the, you know, he started the Air Force's Image Interpretation Center in Washington for the Navy,

02:20:23.000 the Air Force, CIA and the other places.

02:20:27.000 He told me about 1952. He was very interested in UFOs because he had seen photographs.

02:20:35.000 I mean, he was the Armed Forces Photo Interpretation Center.

02:20:40.000 Okay?

02:20:41.000 Epic.

02:20:42.000 He was getting all those things.

02:20:44.000 He had all the clearances from all the services.

02:20:49.000 He didn't tell me the whole story, but he told me, number one, that those things had been photographed.

02:20:56.000 He told me that at the Robertson hearings in 1953, he had the Mariana movie, you know, he gave it to the committee.

02:21:08.000 The committee took it somewhere and analyzed it.

02:21:11.000 They said they were seagulls, you know, When he got the film back, the first 20 frames were missing from his film.

02:21:22.000 It's a very famous...

02:21:23.000 From the CIA film, the CIA laboratory analysis of the film.

02:21:29.000 Very famous film, footage of a UFOs back in 1950 by Nick Mariano.

02:21:33.000 So that tells you the level of the cover-up at that point, that they would do that to their expert.

02:21:38.000 And then we talk about 1952. In 1952, the official explanation came from Dr. Menzel at Harvard.

02:21:47.000 Those were inversions of temperature over Washington.

02:21:51.000 When it gets hot over Washington...

02:21:53.000 And there's photographs of these, right?

02:21:57.000 There was no photographs.

02:21:58.000 There was no photographs of what appeared over the White House?

02:22:01.000 No, but there was tracking, radar tracking of it.

02:22:09.000 And he interpreted the radar as being inversions of temperature.

02:22:16.000 Multiple vehicles, right?

02:22:17.000 Of course, they sent the Air Force after it.

02:22:19.000 Well, he said one of the pilots got permission to shoot, was authorized to shoot.

02:22:28.000 And shot, you know, a piece of metal out of one of the disks.

02:22:36.000 Those were disks that were flying.

02:22:38.000 They didn't care about the defenses.

02:22:40.000 They flew over the White House.

02:22:41.000 They flew, you know, over the major facilities in downtown Washington that are forbidden.

02:22:49.000 I mean, there is no overflight.

02:22:52.000 And so they had to do something and they shot at it.

02:22:58.000 The thing was recovered.

02:23:01.000 The piece of metal?

02:23:02.000 The piece of metal was recovered.

02:23:04.000 He told me, you know, I really shouldn't talk about what happened after that.

02:23:08.000 There is no question that there was a piece of metal recovered from that encounter and that it was shot off, you know, a flying disc over Washington in 1952. And all the explanations that were given to the scientists and to the public were BS. Yeah,

02:23:27.000 yeah.

02:23:27.000 I mean, we feature this case in the film and we have the guy that was actually in the radar room, this guy Al Chop, and we had testimony from a gentleman that interviewed him, Tom Tullian, back in 1990-something.

02:23:39.000 And it's very rare, extremely rare footage of an interview with the very man who was in the radar room listening to the cockpit, listening to the pilot, as he was surrounded by UFOs right over the, you know, Washington DC, White House, Capitol Building.

02:23:55.000 And he was terrified.

02:23:56.000 I mean, he suddenly found himself traveling at 600 miles an hour through the pitch-black darkness, and he was surrounded by unknowns.

02:24:03.000 And he literally radios down to the tower and says, they're completely surrounding me.

02:24:08.000 What do I do?

02:24:09.000 And they were speechless.

02:24:11.000 They didn't know what to tell the pilot.

02:24:13.000 They could see on the radar all the disks, all these UFOs surrounding this plane.

02:24:19.000 And Jock said, well, I know, and we featured this in the film.

02:24:22.000 You probably remember that part.

02:24:24.000 And then Jock said, well, it goes a bit further.

02:24:27.000 We actually did shoot at them, and one of the pieces of the debris from the UFO fell to the ground.

02:24:33.000 It was recovered.

02:24:34.000 And where is that piece?

02:24:35.000 We went back and forth on whether to include that in the movie, and I finally said, I kept, you know, maybe at some point I'll be able to Tell you where it is.

02:24:46.000 Yeah, talk about the piece.

02:24:49.000 Sometimes, when would you be able to do it?

02:24:51.000 Yeah, do it now.

02:24:53.000 Why would you want to wait?

02:24:57.000 I think some of the...

02:25:00.000 You know, I respect the need for certain things to be managed in a particular way, and it wouldn't really add to the story to talk about that.

02:25:18.000 In the book we go a lot further in talking about what those materials are, what the questions are for science, but also what the questions are for disclosure if there is over-disclosure.

02:25:35.000 But there isn't going to be one big disclosure that says we've got contact with aliens from Alpha Centauri.

02:25:45.000 Disclosures come in layers.

02:25:49.000 Everybody needs to get around the truth.

02:25:53.000 But this piece of metal from the 1950s, isn't it about time?

02:25:57.000 We've got others.

02:26:03.000 You can answer his question.

02:26:06.000 Indirectly by that memo, the cross memo that we did feature in the film.

02:26:11.000 And who wrote it?

02:26:12.000 He was a metallurgist.

02:26:13.000 And what lab was he working at?

02:26:15.000 So, you know, fast forward after 1952. 1952 was a disaster for the Air Force because they realized that their lines of communication, which were already a network, it was a network of theletypes, 0.96

02:26:32.000 We're saturated by people reporting UFOs, including Air Force bases reporting UFOs.

02:26:40.000 And somebody thought if the Russians were to simulate a UFO thing by throwing, you know, artificial things in the sky or whatever, they could saturate the communication and we couldn't deploy the defense system.

02:26:59.000 So we've got to do something about it.

02:27:02.000 To reduce the level of reports from the public.

02:27:07.000 So they called together five of the top scientists in the land, you know, Felton Page, Lou Alvarez, people like that, Nobel Prizes, people who knew the nuclear secrets from the days of Oppenheimer and so on.

02:27:26.000 And they brought them to discuss what they should do and be briefed by Art Lundahl.

02:27:35.000 That's where he lost his 20 pictures, which were the best pictures from the beginning of the film.

02:27:43.000 He never saw again.

02:27:46.000 That's where Hynek testified.

02:27:48.000 But Hynek was, as he says, cooling his heels in the antechamber, in the lobby, and they would only bring him in for a couple of things before the scientists.

02:28:01.000 Long story short, the outcome was a classified recommendation to explain away most of the phenomenon to the public, to reduce the number of reports.

02:28:14.000 So the idea wasn't to make the problem go away.

02:28:18.000 It was to make the reports go away because the reports were clogging up the communication channels that were vital to the defense of the country.

02:28:28.000 That made sense.

02:28:29.000 I mean, there is usually some reason why the military does something.

02:28:35.000 Sometimes it's not obvious, but in this case, it was logical.

02:28:40.000 So Hynek was there, and Hynek had a bunch of papers from his testimony and so on.

02:28:47.000 After my PhD at Northwestern, I had an office at the Computing Center.

02:28:53.000 There's a whole summer coming, and I offered to Dr. Hynek to reorganize his files, which were in a complete shamble.

02:29:04.000 And so he says, sure, I mean, that would be great.

02:29:06.000 You can put it in new folders.

02:29:08.000 So I buy new clean folders and I start going through all the files because we had copies of, you know, essentially 20,000 reports from the Air Force that were unclassified.

02:29:23.000 And so I make these new things and I put everything back in order.

02:29:28.000 I also punch the cards for that so that we have a database at the same time, which I still have.

02:29:35.000 And with the names of witnesses, by the way.

02:29:40.000 And I find this folder which is full of stuff.

02:29:46.000 And in it, there is two pages, an onion skin.

02:29:50.000 Everybody, I mean, your audience, I'm sure your audience has no idea what an onion skin is.

02:29:58.000 You know, when you have a typewriter, a hand typewriter, and you want to make several copies, You put a carbon between, and the first page is your letter, and the others are, you know, thin paper.

02:30:12.000 You know, that thin paper is called an onion skin.

02:30:16.000 Of course, now we have computers, so we don't need carbon copies.

02:30:20.000 So it's a carbon copy of a memo from somebody I've never heard of to somebody in the intelligence community.

02:30:31.000 Saying we should not have that panel because we are not ready.

02:30:39.000 And, which is interesting by itself, I mean, who are these people who want to stop this top-level scientific panel of United States defense establishment?

02:30:53.000 I mean, who do they think they are?

02:30:55.000 The other thing about the memo is that it's stamped secret.

02:31:01.000 At that point, I still have a French passport and I have a green card.

02:31:06.000 So I'm legally in the United States, but I'm not even a U.S. citizen.

02:31:10.000 I became a U.S. citizen.

02:31:12.000 You had to wait five years before you could apply for citizenship.

02:31:18.000 But I certainly didn't have any reason to look at a secret memo.

02:31:23.000 But I start reading it.

02:31:27.000 Because I need to tell Hynek that this shouldn't be here.

02:31:31.000 It shouldn't be in my files.

02:31:36.000 Hynek told me that not only had he forgotten that memo, but he didn't think he had ever seen it.

02:31:44.000 That if he had seen it, that would have changed certain things.

02:31:47.000 Well, it turned out that group turned out two things.

02:31:52.000 Number one, that Robertson panel was not brought together by the Air Force.

02:31:58.000 It was brought together by other people in the intelligence community.

02:32:02.000 The Air Force was recovered.

02:32:05.000 The scientists were never told that.

02:32:07.000 They didn't know that.

02:32:08.000 So you bring together the top, you know, top clearance, top physicists in the US, including a couple of Nobel Prizes, and you don't tell them who you are.

02:32:22.000 Well, okay.

02:32:25.000 Can I step in just for a quick sec?

02:32:29.000 Because this was something that we featured, and it was a really complicated story.

02:32:33.000 So basically what Jacques is saying leading up to this, we had a really difficult time deciphering this.

02:32:38.000 So basically...

02:32:39.000 There was that massive sighting in 1952 over Washington.

02:32:42.000 The Air Force had to do something.

02:32:44.000 They decided to convene a panel of the most smartest minds on how to deal with this.

02:32:49.000 It was called the Robertson Panel.

02:32:50.000 The Robertson Panel was then told not to happen by this This memo that you find, which basically is an unknown government agency with more power, more influence in the CIA. It wasn't even an agency.

02:33:05.000 It was a contractor.

02:33:06.000 Contractor.

02:33:08.000 But it was a contractor.

02:33:10.000 They had a contract to look at UFOs.

02:33:12.000 And what they were saying is, you know, it's a good idea to bring the scientists, but this is premature.

02:33:18.000 We're not ready to tell them about the patterns.

02:33:21.000 It's always about, these were top level computer people in 1954. They were working with punch cards, but punch cards work.

02:33:30.000 I mean, you know, there's nothing wrong with punch cards.

02:33:35.000 They wanted to bring the best information and then had ideas that they wanted to discuss about how to test their hypotheses about what UFOs are.

02:33:48.000 The Robertson panel went on, ignored that memo, it went on, and it concluded that they should discount the reports from the public and they should look at instrumentation from the military,

02:34:04.000 which is what people are doing now.

02:34:07.000 I mean, we see the military with these advanced cameras, the Nimitz, you know, all those things that are in your movie.

02:34:14.000 And they've discounted reports.

02:34:16.000 They kept Project Blue Book going so that the public would have a place to write if they saw something.

02:34:23.000 But it was a very low-level thing.

02:34:25.000 But we got to this because you were saying about the examination of the medal.

02:34:29.000 Yes.

02:34:30.000 We never got to that.

02:34:31.000 Well, the memo, so when I discussed it with Hynek, and I got only one other person in the confidence, the memo came from an organization in Ohio called Battelle Memorial Institute.

02:34:54.000 Top organization on the analysis of metals.

02:34:59.000 They were the ones who invented titanium aluminide.

02:35:03.000 They were the ones who invented some of the coatings and some of the metals used in spy planes like that were used later in the U-2, in the SR-71, in those undetectable airplanes and so on.

02:35:19.000 They were, at that time, the experts.

02:35:23.000 They were also the experts on UFOs because they had a contract with the Air Force.

02:35:29.000 And I think that memo, which I really didn't want to expose, but I would have written that memo.

02:35:40.000 You know, I mean, that conference was an attempt to cover up the reality.

02:35:47.000 And what the Battelle scientists were saying was, wait a minute, you know, we need to look on the ground.

02:35:56.000 We need to simulate a UFO wave, see what the statistics are.

02:36:01.000 That's going to take another year.

02:36:04.000 Don't convene that meeting now.

02:36:07.000 They were overridden.

02:36:08.000 They were...

02:36:09.000 But Joe's question is, where would that piece of metal that was shot off the UFO, that memo revealed, it was written by a metallurgist from the Memorial Institute.

02:36:19.000 So if he had that metal in his possession, it would have been analyzed by a metallurgist at the Memorial Institute.

02:36:25.000 Yeah, but at that point, the different parts were not communicating.

02:36:31.000 But did they examine the metal?

02:36:34.000 I shouldn't talk about that.

02:36:39.000 I think the book talks about how How complicated it is to get, once you get the medals or the samples or whatever, what do you do with it and what does it mean?

02:36:55.000 Why shouldn't you talk about whether or not they tested the medal?

02:36:58.000 Well, because I'm not, I don't have the complete information.

02:37:04.000 You know, I mean, obviously that was classified.

02:37:08.000 Art Rondahl told me that because, number one, you know, he knew that I knew the rest of the story.

02:37:17.000 Number two, I had just testified before, you know, a congressional panel on crisis management for the United States of America.

02:37:29.000 So he knew that I understood how those things happen, you know, how they are managed.

02:37:36.000 But there is plenty of other metal.

02:37:39.000 I mean, I don't really care about that particular metal.

02:37:42.000 You don't care about that particular metal?

02:37:45.000 If there's a piece of metal that was shot off of a UFO in 1952 that's proven to be of consistency or with some sort of a...

02:37:56.000 We have others.

02:37:58.000 We have others.

02:37:59.000 What do we have?

02:38:01.000 We have others from...

02:38:05.000 Argentina, from Brazil, from France, from Russia, from other places.

02:38:10.000 Has it been proven?

02:38:11.000 You were talking about isotopes.

02:38:13.000 When I say we, I'm talking about my buddies and the lab we have in Silicon Valley.

02:38:19.000 But these metals.

02:38:21.000 Other people have similar things.

02:38:22.000 Right, but these metals, have they been proven to be of a structure that we can't replicate?

02:38:31.000 Not what I've looked at so far.

02:38:33.000 What have you looked at so far that leads you to believe that they're extraterrestrial?

02:38:38.000 The condition under which they were found and the reports from the witnesses about what they did.

02:38:48.000 Okay, but if you're talking about something that doesn't seem...

02:38:53.000 Obviously extraterrestrial.

02:38:54.000 How do you know?

02:38:56.000 How do you know that this is an extraterrestrial piece of metal if it has the same characteristics of metal that you would find here on Earth?

02:39:08.000 The characteristics of the metal are going to be the same ones that we find on Earth.

02:39:13.000 Because iron from Mars or Venus is like iron you can pick up.

02:39:19.000 But let's go back to the time where you were talking about that one particular silicon matrix.

02:39:23.000 If it is engineered at the atomic level for, say, 1954...

02:39:32.000 At a level where our technology hadn't evolved to the point of, for example, separating the isotopes.

02:39:39.000 And you found things like this?

02:39:42.000 Yes.

02:39:44.000 Not me, but some of my colleagues believe that they found things like that.

02:39:50.000 But they only had a tiny amount.

02:39:52.000 I went to Argentina and I got more of this stuff because there is still some stuff there.

02:39:58.000 And I brought back test tubes with enough material that we are going to be testing it again.

02:40:06.000 So they haven't tested anything that shows that it's clearly extraterrestrial?

02:40:10.000 No one has any concrete evidence from any of these samples.

02:40:13.000 The medal that was found in Brazil where people described an object flying over and then an explosion that showered, some of it fell in the water, some of it fell in the sand on the beach,

02:40:29.000 some of it fell on rooftops.

02:40:32.000 And so there was a lot of stuff.

02:40:34.000 And for a long time, we only had, you know, a pinhead worth of stuff, which is good enough for one measurement.

02:40:41.000 But people told me you can't come here with one measurement.

02:40:45.000 You need 20 different machines, different things, different techniques if you want to do it right.

02:40:51.000 So that's what we're doing.

02:40:53.000 Right, but do you understand what I'm asking?

02:40:54.000 I'm asking, is there one smoking gun?

02:40:57.000 Is there one piece of metal that you can say, this was made at a time, or this is from 1952, there was no technology to recreate this metal then, we didn't know how to make this?

02:41:08.000 Well, the one that I'm talking about was 57 over Ubatuba in Brazil.

02:41:14.000 And other groups have a similar thing.

02:41:17.000 And we'll compare notes.

02:41:19.000 But what was found was that one of the components of the magnesium, one of the isotopes of the magnesium, was way over what it would be in nature, in the natural magnesium.

02:41:32.000 Which means somebody took it apart and reformulated the magnesium.

02:41:37.000 And magnesium is very light and very strong, unusual metal.

02:41:41.000 Yes, it also ignites in contact with air.

02:41:44.000 So it blows up easily.

02:41:47.000 And the reason our sample doesn't blow up is that there is oxide.

02:41:53.000 It oxidizes very quickly.

02:41:55.000 So there is a layer of magnesium oxide on top of it.

02:41:59.000 And the analyses, some of the analyses that have been done would indicate that number one, it's extremely pure, purer than the Dao standard for magnesium.

02:42:14.000 But, you know, again, if you go to see a physicist, he'll say, well, I can buy the Dao standard and I can refine it further in my lab.

02:42:26.000 Dao chemical, you know, they supply metals to everybody.

02:42:31.000 They never had a commercial need for that, but if I have a need for that, I can do it.

02:42:38.000 So that doesn't prove anything.

02:42:40.000 But if we can verify it, and if we can look at the ratio of the other isotopes and so on, highly precisely, which we can do now...

02:42:52.000 But that hasn't been done yet?

02:42:54.000 No.

02:42:55.000 We'll do it in the next few months.

02:42:57.000 Okay, so the answer is, if I can round this out, there's no real clear evidence that any of this metal is extraterrestrial.

02:43:06.000 Correct.

02:43:07.000 So when you say we have lots of metal that seems to have come from a UFO, what would lead you to think that if none of this has been proven to be extraterrestrial?

02:43:17.000 Well, because people saw the thing crash.

02:43:20.000 Yeah, but people don't always tell the truth, right?

02:43:23.000 Isn't part of the problem is that people don't always tell the truth?

02:43:26.000 Yeah, but if they come up with, if they say this thing crashed, you know, you've got ordinary people in Brazil in that little town.

02:43:34.000 You've got the police, you've got the, you know, telling you that this thing fell.

02:43:39.000 And here is the stuff.

02:43:41.000 You take the stuff to the left.

02:43:42.000 But is this stuff clearly manufactured?

02:43:45.000 Is it clearly refined and manufactured?

02:43:47.000 Yes.

02:43:47.000 So this is not something that could have come from an asteroid?

02:43:50.000 No.

02:43:51.000 Okay.

02:43:51.000 No.

02:43:52.000 I asked the same question.

02:43:53.000 I was in the lab with him and Gary Nolan, and I was exactly like you.

02:43:57.000 I was like, well, what are you...

02:43:58.000 Right, where's the evidence?

02:44:00.000 Yeah, I need to know.

02:44:01.000 And Gary said to me, and some of which had to be edited down a little bit because he went a little beyond the comfort zone of Stanford University.

02:44:10.000 He said to me that what we're looking at has an isotopic value that he didn't understand, and that if it was to be recreated on Earth, it would be in the billions of dollars to do it.

02:44:19.000 Yeah.

02:44:19.000 That's what he told me.

02:44:20.000 Okay, that's better.

02:44:21.000 Yeah, then he said to me, we don't understand it.

02:44:25.000 It's engineered at an atomic level.

02:44:28.000 We're learning that with this new device that we have in Silicon Valley.

02:44:32.000 We don't understand it.

02:44:33.000 We want to understand it.

02:44:34.000 And we feel like it could be revolutionary breakthrough technologically if we could understand it.

02:44:40.000 And this other material that in the Silicon Valley that they had discovered 20 years ago that your friend had analyzed and he said...

02:44:48.000 There's nothing like it and we've seen nothing like it since then.

02:44:51.000 Yeah.

02:44:52.000 This man who was given that sample.

02:44:56.000 Right.

02:44:56.000 And we don't know where that is now, right?

02:44:58.000 We don't know where it is.

02:44:59.000 We don't know where that is.

02:45:00.000 But he said a matrix of orthosilicate.

02:45:08.000 Yeah.

02:45:08.000 That he couldn't probe in his lab.

02:45:13.000 And, you know, obviously Battelle would have been a logical place to look at that because they had all the people who signed that memo were metallurgists.

02:45:27.000 So that makes you think of something, right?

02:45:32.000 I get frustrated with it too because I went to the lab and I saw the machine.

02:45:38.000 I saw the metal samples which you carried around like this.

02:45:41.000 You never let them out of your sight.

02:45:42.000 And I said, Jesus, are you paranoid or something?

02:45:44.000 What are you worried about?

02:45:45.000 You said these things have a strange way of disappearing.

02:45:46.000 They have a way of disappearing.

02:45:48.000 And I ask the same questions you're asking.

02:45:50.000 What do we know?

02:45:51.000 And he's concerned that he's going to make a statement That's going to be premature, that the further scientific analysis, that the scientific journals and the peer review hasn't happened yet, and therefore he's being really conservative.

02:46:07.000 But basically what he's telling me is the stuff's engineered at an atomic level, it would be in the billions of dollars to recreate, if we could even recreate it.

02:46:14.000 And we're talking about pieces that recovered as early as 47 and 57 and, you know, etc.

02:46:19.000 So it's extremely exciting, but it's too early to make any Concrete statements.

02:46:27.000 Okay, but that's much better.

02:46:28.000 At least you're saying that there is something, some evidence that shows that there's something, and whether or not it's made from materials that exist as we know it currently on Earth, it's made in a way that there's no way anyone can make it today without some insane budget.

02:46:47.000 And much less likely in the 1940s.

02:46:51.000 Yes.

02:46:51.000 Well, again, this is human testimony.

02:46:55.000 Yes.

02:46:55.000 You know, this scientist from that company with that matrix of orthosilicate, the Air Force colonel who told me about the thing he could lift with one finger, you know, a whole wing.

02:47:12.000 You know, colonel Corso with the stuff that he recovered that he was given by the army.

02:47:20.000 I mean, initially the army had the project to analyze this right after the war and that he gave to the different labs.

02:47:33.000 What we need to do is go through the normal scientific publication process.

02:47:41.000 Why hasn't this happened?

02:47:43.000 Every time somebody tried, Dr. Hynek tried, they wouldn't publish it.

02:47:48.000 But in 2020, don't you think they'd be more likely to be interested and possibly publish this?

02:47:55.000 We'll find out.

02:47:56.000 So you still have all these medals in your possession or in someone's possession?

02:48:01.000 Yes.

02:48:02.000 What other kind of evidence is there?

02:48:05.000 Is there anything else that's compelling?

02:48:08.000 I don't know of any biological evidence.

02:48:12.000 That's what would...

02:48:14.000 Like a body, you mean?

02:48:16.000 Well, we don't even need a body.

02:48:18.000 I mean, you need saliva from a Martian.

02:48:22.000 We can do the DNA. I brought this up with with Christopher Mellon recently and because you hear that same old argument you know oh you know the skeptic and I think it's perfectly healthy to be skeptical I'm to be the first one to tell you that the vast majority of UFO reports can and have been explained away in sort of down-to-earth conventional terms but there's that core 10 or 15 percent of cases that truly after careful scientific investigation defy a terrestrial explanation and those are the cases that we focus on and I asked

02:48:52.000 Christopher Mellon What do you say to the skeptic that says, oh, there's clearly just anecdotal evidence as to the reality of UFOs?

02:48:59.000 He's like, well, we put that to bed a long time ago.

02:49:01.000 You've got visual confirmation, radar confirmation, ground-to-air visual and ground-to-air radar.

02:49:10.000 You've got photographic evidence from the cockpits of these military aircraft.

02:49:15.000 You've got landing prints in the ground.

02:49:17.000 You've got Soil sample analysis from the propulsion.

02:49:22.000 You've got plants and soil samples.

02:49:25.000 There's a preponderance of evidence of cases all around the world.

02:49:30.000 The only question is, who are they, what do they want, and where do they come from?

02:49:35.000 I mean, that seems to be where we need to set our sights.

02:49:38.000 And Senator Reid said something really interesting to me.

02:49:40.000 He's like, look, just because we don't understand something, it doesn't mean we should shy away from it.

02:49:45.000 It doesn't mean we should...

02:49:48.000 You know, focus in the scientific community and get to the bottom of it and put the necessary resources in place and stop treating this like a taboo subject that we have to all, you know, shy away from.

02:49:59.000 Well, whoever has a stranglehold on the information in the intelligence community seems to be in a position where a lot of what they have is, I don't know.

02:50:09.000 Yeah, and they're also sitting on footage of, you know, apparently according to all the people, the military guys I've talked to, crystal clear photographic evidence, landing film footage evidence, cockpit film recording evidence.

02:50:24.000 I mean, there's that statement I read earlier about this latest story breaking about two Navy pilots getting one triangular-shaped UFO that came out of the water.

02:50:33.000 They've got a crystal clear photograph of that.

02:50:35.000 They're not releasing to the public.

02:50:37.000 So I think we should get the pressure on for further government transparency.

02:50:42.000 I really do, and I think that the more tangible, solid, compelling evidence needs to get released.

02:50:48.000 It's so fascinating, and everybody wants to see something like this.

02:50:52.000 It's the biggest story ever.

02:50:53.000 I mean, the cockpit recordings that Christopher Mellon snuck out of the Pentagon that ended up on the page of the New York Times, that was huge.

02:51:00.000 Everyone is waiting for that type of evidence.

02:51:02.000 We know it's there.

02:51:03.000 We've had confirmation from extremely high-level government officials, people in the intelligence agency, saying it's there.

02:51:09.000 We just have to get it released.

02:51:12.000 Well, at the Al Gore hearings about emergency management, the question of the satellites came up.

02:51:22.000 And somebody said, one of the congresspeople, We pay you guys to deploy these satellites, and you look at the Earth all the time with 10 centimeters resolution.

02:51:37.000 So if you see something that could be a crisis, you should be able to tell us if it's going to threaten the population of the United States.

02:51:50.000 There was one guy there who didn't laugh because he was respectful of the committee, but he said, with all due respect, I cannot, under this audience, I cannot tell you where I work,

02:52:06.000 but there are three letters to my employer, and what I can tell you is that I measure Every morning, the amount of snow that has fallen on the nose of the statue of Dzerzhinsky in downtown Moscow,

02:52:29.000 in front of the headquarters of the KGB. I can measure, I can tell you how much snow fell that night, because I measure it.

02:52:39.000 So that tells you, you know, the kind of instrument that we have.

02:52:46.000 By regulation, by law, I must turn off my satellite when it flies over the United States.

02:52:55.000 I'm not spying on your house.

02:52:59.000 If you authorize me to run the satellite, to run the acquisition, I could tell you when there is going to be a flood in Arizona.

02:53:11.000 Because I could measure the amount of the snow that fell on the Rockies last night.

02:53:18.000 And we've got these climate prediction schedules.

02:53:23.000 We can approximately tell you where it might melt and where it's going to go when it melts.

02:53:31.000 And how big the reservoirs are going to be, and when the reservoirs are going to overflow.

02:53:37.000 But I'm not authorized by law to look at any of the data, and even if I looked at it, I wouldn't be authorized to disclose it to you, because you're not cleared for the characteristics of the resolution of my device.

02:53:54.000 And I'm sure that, you know, in March, I'm going to be sitting with my wife and my kids looking at the TV, and I'm going to see this woman in Arizona, with her two babies in her arm, up to here in her kitchen,

02:54:10.000 up to here in water, because the dam has flooded, because it happens every winter, because the snow melts and it comes down.

02:54:19.000 But I'm not authorized to tell her.

02:54:22.000 And even if I told her, I would have to tell the governor.

02:54:26.000 The governor would have to tell the sheriff.

02:54:29.000 And the sheriff would have to disclose, you know, send somebody there.

02:54:34.000 There are four levels of management.

02:54:37.000 Did he indicate they were picking up UFOs?

02:54:40.000 No, no.

02:54:41.000 Well, we were not talking about UFOs.

02:54:44.000 We were talking about emergencies.

02:54:46.000 But you were saying that if we have these satellites that can do these incredible things, why are we not picking up UFOs?

02:54:53.000 Well...

02:54:55.000 No, I'm saying why, if they are picking up UFOs, why they are not telling us.

02:54:59.000 They can't even tell us when there is going to be a flood in Arizona.

02:55:02.000 Okay, so they might be picking up these UFOs.

02:55:05.000 There is a good reason for that.

02:55:06.000 They might be picking up these UFOs, but they're not giving us the data.

02:55:09.000 That's what Art Lundahl was saying about...

02:55:13.000 You know, his experience.

02:55:16.000 The other compelling story of abduction that you had briefly brought up for a second before we were still on the Betty and Barney Hill story was Travis Walt.

02:55:26.000 Yes.

02:55:26.000 We interviewed Travis for potentially for the film and then opted to kind of avoid I don't consider the Travis Walton an abduction so much as an encounter that didn't end well, and he probably was taken aboard to get recovered.

02:55:43.000 What do you mean?

02:55:44.000 Well, they were in the woods, Snowflake, Arizona, I think it was 1975. It was a logger, right?

02:55:50.000 It was a logger.

02:55:50.000 They had a contract with the government.

02:55:52.000 To log a certain area or to clear a certain area and it was late and they were behind on the schedule so they were working a little bit later than they normally would and they all got in the truck.

02:56:03.000 They had four-door trucks that had like seven of them driving out and they saw a light in the sky.

02:56:09.000 They thought it was a fire.

02:56:10.000 And as they got closer to it, it was this perfect disc hovering about treetop level right out the window.

02:56:17.000 I mean, they said he could have hit with a rock.

02:56:18.000 And he told the driver, Travis Walton, stop the truck.

02:56:21.000 I'm going to jump out.

02:56:22.000 And they all, against their will, don't do that, Travis.

02:56:25.000 And he just leapt out of the truck and started running towards this thing thinking it was going to just shoot off.

02:56:30.000 But it didn't.

02:56:31.000 It stayed there.

02:56:33.000 And as he got closer to it, he started to kind of freak out a little bit, and it started making a weird sound, like it was spooling up or something.

02:56:40.000 And so he tucked down behind a log that was on the ground, and they're screaming at him in the truck, get back, get back here, what are you doing?

02:56:48.000 And he realized he was dangerously close to this thing, so he was going to make a run for the truck, and he got up as this thing was spooling up, according to him, and he tried to make a run for the truck, and some kind of Energy force hit him and knocked him like a raggedy end all the way across,

02:57:05.000 like 60 feet, and he landed, and those guys took off thinking they were next, and they left him for dead out there in the woods.

02:57:13.000 They're driving down the road, hightailing it out of there, and then the driver realizes, like, we can't leave Travis, man.

02:57:19.000 We've got to go back and get Travis, and they were all freaked out thinking that they were going to be next.

02:57:24.000 Finally, they argued, and he said, look, man, I'm going back to get Travis, whether you guys are with me or not.

02:57:29.000 And if you want, you guys can stay here.

02:57:31.000 I'll come back and get you.

02:57:32.000 They're like, no, no, let's stick together.

02:57:33.000 So they all stick together in the truck.

02:57:35.000 They turned around.

02:57:35.000 They went back.

02:57:36.000 UFO gone.

02:57:37.000 Travis gone.

02:57:38.000 They go down into town, and they have to tell the authorities.

02:57:41.000 And you can imagine, in 1975, they're telling the local authorities.

02:57:44.000 And there's a small enough town where everybody kind of knows everybody.

02:57:47.000 Hey, our buddy got abducted by a flying saucer, and he's gone.

02:57:50.000 They're like, yeah, you guys are all under arrest for homicide.

02:57:54.000 We'll start an intense search the next day with helicopters, dogs.

02:57:57.000 It made world news all across the country.

02:57:58.000 You know, as you can imagine, these guys took lie detector tests.

02:58:02.000 They said, you know, they stuck to their story, even though they knew that people wouldn't believe them.

02:58:06.000 They thought they'd killed Travis, and then they buried him somewhere in the hills.

02:58:09.000 So they're all doing this five-day intensive search.

02:58:13.000 Well, Travis Walton reappears five days later with facial growth.

02:58:17.000 Here's the really fascinating part of this story that I find incredible because, again, don't look at what the phenomenon does.

02:58:25.000 Sometimes you look at what they don't do.

02:58:26.000 Well, they didn't drop him off where they picked him up.

02:58:30.000 I've been out there.

02:58:30.000 It's a really remote area in the mountains, in the forest.

02:58:34.000 He would not have made it back alive.

02:58:37.000 Drop him off in the middle of town.

02:58:38.000 They didn't do that either, but they dropped him off right on the outskirts of town.

02:58:42.000 A, they did it in a little valley, so they minimized any possibility of their exposure.

02:58:47.000 They dropped him off in a place where he could get help, but they would minimize being seen.

02:58:51.000 They did it at night.

02:58:53.000 And five days later, he reappears, and of course he...

02:58:56.000 He's back and he recounts the same story.

02:58:59.000 And he's been recounting the same story.

02:59:01.000 And what is his story?

02:59:02.000 The story is he woke up.

02:59:04.000 It's funny, actually.

02:59:05.000 I met with Travis a handful of times and I sat down with him.

02:59:09.000 And a lot of times when I really want to absorb a story, I close my eyes and then their words recreate the visuals for me so I see it.

02:59:16.000 And so that's what I did with Travis at dinner, just the two of us.

02:59:19.000 And I closed my eyes and he told me he woke up.

02:59:24.000 He was on a table, and he was kind of blurry-eyed, but he could see these little beans, and he initially thought, what am I looking at here?

02:59:36.000 Where am I? And he saw these little beans, and typical beans.

02:59:41.000 Diminutive body, big head, big almond-shaped black eyes, and he was absolutely terrified.

02:59:47.000 And he grabbed some sort of instrument that was on the table, and he said that he even touched one of them, and he goes, I was surprised at how light it was.

02:59:53.000 It moved really easily, and he started aggressively swinging some instrument that he found on the table towards these things, and then they scurried off and left the room.

03:00:02.000 He went off, they went to the right, he went left, and he was walking down a hallway, and he said, you can imagine Like polished aluminum.

03:00:10.000 There were no seams, no rivets, no weld marks, but it was all solid, like one solid piece.

03:00:14.000 And he said it was tight, and my shoulders were rubbing on either side of this hallway, and I was running down the hallway, totally freaked out, didn't know where he was, and he was having a hard time breathing.

03:00:25.000 And he took a left and he went into this room and there was a command chair.

03:00:30.000 And he sat in the command chair and he started playing with buttons.

03:00:35.000 He was trying to get out.

03:00:36.000 He just wanted to get out.

03:00:37.000 And all of a sudden there was a holographic projection of a star chart that was holographic that appeared.

03:00:44.000 And he was moving.

03:00:45.000 With these buttons and everything started to move and he thought, my God, if I'm on a spaceship, I could crash this thing.

03:00:50.000 I don't know what I'm doing.

03:00:51.000 And then two very humanoid looking people, beautiful angelic people with these glass bulbs came in with tight-fitting suits on.

03:00:59.000 And he said, oh my God, you guys are here to save me.

03:01:01.000 Thank God.

03:01:02.000 But they wouldn't talk with him.

03:01:03.000 They just took him by the arm and they escorted him out.

03:01:06.000 He went down a ramp and then he said, I was either in a hangar or I was in a big, huge, another spaceship.

03:01:13.000 I don't know if it was a huge hangar on the ground or if it was another spaceship, but there were lots of...

03:01:19.000 Discs of different sizes parked inside this hangar looking thing, but it was indoors.

03:01:25.000 And they escorted him out.

03:01:26.000 They met with another woman.

03:01:28.000 I said, well, how do you know it was a woman?

03:01:29.000 He said, it was a woman.

03:01:30.000 It had a glass bulb, and they took something over his mouth.

03:01:35.000 And he kind of fought, but he said he was weak.

03:01:37.000 And the next thing he knew, he woke up in a field and looked up, and the disc was just leaving, departing, and it was five days later.

03:01:44.000 Yeah, and there was a movie made about it called Fire in the Sky.

03:01:47.000 But the ending was...

03:01:48.000 Tracy Torme wrote that, and the ending of the film was changed at the last minute, and it was inaccurate.

03:01:54.000 Yeah, because the... 0.99

03:01:56.000 Fucking Hollywood. 1.00

03:01:57.000 I know, Hollywood. 1.00

03:01:57.000 Exactly. 1.00

03:01:58.000 These motherfuckers. 1.00

03:01:59.000 Yeah, I know. 1.00

03:02:00.000 And he fought it, and they said, look, you want the movie to get made?

03:02:02.000 They were changed in the ending.

03:02:04.000 But that's the real ending in the movie.

03:02:05.000 That was right from Travis Walton to me.

03:02:07.000 Wow.

03:02:08.000 But I decided in the movie...

03:02:09.000 Is he still alive?

03:02:10.000 Yes, he is.

03:02:11.000 Where does he live?

03:02:12.000 Snowflake, Arizona.

03:02:13.000 I believe he still lives there.

03:02:14.000 Wow.

03:02:15.000 Yeah, he's great.

03:02:16.000 His story is exactly the way...

03:02:17.000 How old is he now?

03:02:18.000 He's probably maybe late 60s.

03:02:21.000 Yeah, and I went to the actual site with him.

03:02:24.000 We actually drove out to that site, and I tell you, man, when we got there, he got out of the car, and he was just running, just running towards the spot.

03:02:33.000 It had recently snowed.

03:02:34.000 There was snow in the ground, and I couldn't keep up with him, but he was running to go to the exact location, and I could see him reliving the whole thing.

03:02:41.000 I mean, it was a really powerful moment.

03:02:44.000 With him.

03:02:45.000 And it was a very, very remote area of the mountain range.

03:02:48.000 It's a very compelling story.

03:02:50.000 It's a really compelling story.

03:02:52.000 And they all passed.

03:02:52.000 And I interviewed a number of the eyewitnesses that were with him at the time.

03:02:56.000 And there's a movie made about it called Travis, I believe.

03:02:58.000 You should definitely look into it.

03:02:59.000 But a documentary.

03:03:01.000 But he was really funny.

03:03:03.000 He was working at like a Walmart.

03:03:04.000 You were going to say pass a polygraph test.

03:03:07.000 Yeah, they all did.

03:03:07.000 Yeah.

03:03:08.000 But I was talking to one of the witnesses.

03:03:09.000 I'll never forget this.

03:03:10.000 And I was like, God, what did you see?

03:03:12.000 Can you describe what the disc looked like?

03:03:14.000 And he goes, you ever seen like a brand new Corvette?

03:03:18.000 Like that beautiful brand new Corvette?

03:03:21.000 And I said, yeah, I have.

03:03:23.000 He goes, it was more perfect than that.

03:03:25.000 It was just this perfect disc.

03:03:27.000 And he said it was lit up like you could see these almost little windows in it.

03:03:30.000 And it just suspended in this darkness.

03:03:32.000 And it was kind of just wobbling there.

03:03:34.000 But the way he describes it, he made the correlation of a Corvette, a brand new Corvette.

03:03:38.000 Isn't that funny?

03:03:39.000 Yeah, and yeah, it's a fascinating case.

03:03:42.000 And I decided that this is the first film that I was dealing, it was my fourth one, that I dealt with Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which is when there were, you know, the witnesses claimed to report beans.

03:03:54.000 And that was about as far as I wanted to go with it because I was concerned about the mainstream participation I was getting with like Harry Reid and Podesta and Governor Bill Richardson and those, Christopher Mellon, Jacques Vallée.

03:04:08.000 And I was concerned not to go too far with it and to take baby steps.

03:04:14.000 And one of the things that's been incredibly exciting for me to see for the first time, keep in mind this is my fourth film on the topic, is that not only are we seeing...

03:04:24.000 A, we've got people like Dan Farah, who's a mainstream, you know, he produced Ready Player One with Steven Spielberg, who's attaching, he's the latest producer, who's associating himself with this film.

03:04:34.000 But you're getting like Harry Reid and all these household names that are not only looking at it, participating in it, but publicly endorsing it.

03:04:43.000 And that is extremely exciting because that is an indication that People are getting ready for this story to come out.

03:04:51.000 You know what I'm saying?

03:04:53.000 I felt it was important to take those baby steps and not go too far because there are some aspects of the phenomenon that if you're unfamiliar with it might be a bit of a stretch.

03:05:04.000 Well, it seems like the public is more interested and more open to it now than ever before.

03:05:08.000 And it seems less ridiculous to people now.

03:05:11.000 No question about it.

03:05:12.000 And the New York Times thing really made the difference.

03:05:15.000 I firmly believe that.

03:05:16.000 Yeah, it for sure did.

03:05:18.000 Because it was sent to me by a bunch of my friends that are like legitimate intellectuals.

03:05:23.000 Professors, scholars, like people that are really smart.

03:05:26.000 Like, look, this is right up your alley.

03:05:28.000 Like, look at this, New York Times now.

03:05:29.000 Uh-huh, exactly.

03:05:30.000 And I had people that had been ridiculing me for decades go, Oh, my God.

03:05:35.000 I mean, like, the guy that lives across the street from where I grew up, his Walter Murch Sr. He edited Apocalypse Now, okay?

03:05:41.000 He's, like, the pinnacle of success editor.

03:05:43.000 And he's always kind of made little jabs at me over the years.

03:05:46.000 And then he finally goes, Boy, James, you might be right.

03:05:50.000 That was really satisfying for me.

03:05:52.000 And then to see Lou Elizondo publicly endorse the film.

03:05:55.000 And we're talking about, like, if you think about it...

03:05:59.000 You've got people endorsing a film that, take my name off it, it's just stories that we reported on, but that deals with potential close encounters of the third kind.

03:06:09.000 That's so amazing.

03:06:11.000 I mean, if you walk down the street and you meet Average Joe and you say, hey, did you hear about the UFO that landed in Africa?

03:06:16.000 The occupants got out and communicated telepathically. 0.99

03:06:19.000 Get the fuck out of here. 0.99

03:06:21.000 Go so crazy somewhere else. 1.00

03:06:23.000 Like, you would.

03:06:24.000 But it's happening.

03:06:25.000 We feature it.

03:06:27.000 We were in the edit room for three and a half, four years and we said, where are we going?

03:06:30.000 We're on the road to Rua.

03:06:31.000 That was our mantra, road to Rua.

03:06:32.000 What we meant was, let's compile the evidence and let's build our case so we can allow the audience to walk away at the end of the film saying, that landing case in Africa might have actually just happened.

03:06:44.000 The thing about all these cases, whether it's Travis Walton or Betty and Barney Hill or the African case is if you weren't there and you've never experienced anything like it, it was just this one unique thing that happened.

03:06:59.000 It's so hard for anyone to accept, unless you see it with your own eyes, unless you're actually there, unless you experience it.

03:07:07.000 It's so hard, and it's so easy to be incredulous.

03:07:10.000 It's so easy to be skeptical.

03:07:11.000 But when you get people like David Fravor...

03:07:14.000 Yeah.

03:07:15.000 Oh, he's so compelling.

03:07:17.000 He's so compelling.

03:07:17.000 You listen to his testimony, and then you listen to the parallels of the observed technology, the no wings, and how baffled he was with the whole thing.

03:07:24.000 And then you hear the stories, the same technology back in the 40s and 50s.

03:07:29.000 You should listen to him on, I don't know if you've listened to him, on Lex Friedman's podcast.

03:07:33.000 No, I haven't.

03:07:33.000 It's amazing, because Lex, you know, Lex is, he does, he did artificial intelligence work with MIT. Mm-hmm.

03:07:39.000 Brilliant guy.

03:07:40.000 And him and David Fravor go on forever about the experience, the encounter.

03:07:45.000 And also just his understanding and knowledge of aircrafts and just of air travel.

03:07:51.000 It's an insane story.

03:07:53.000 I had him on my podcast with Jeremy Corbell and that was great, but it was even better on Lex Friedman's podcast because it was just Lex and David together and they went deep into the weeds about the story.

03:08:06.000 Yeah, I mean, apparently there was an object under the water, which we were like, did we cover that?

03:08:10.000 We kind of mentioned it quickly in the film.

03:08:12.000 There's so many aspects of that.

03:08:13.000 The thing is, he could only see the water breaking over the top of it.

03:08:16.000 He couldn't see the actual object itself.

03:08:18.000 But there's many stories about things that are in the water.

03:08:22.000 If you wanted to have a base, or you wanted to have some sort of a mothership, and you wanted to hide it in plain view, I mean, 90% of the Earth's ocean is undiscovered or unexplored.

03:08:33.000 I mean, it's...

03:08:33.000 You could easily hide something in there and no one would ever see it.

03:08:37.000 That's one thing Christopher Mellon said.

03:08:39.000 He was disappointed with the New York Times, and I thought, well, gosh, the New York Times did something pretty brave, I think, and the due diligence they did, apparently, according to the authors, was insane.

03:08:48.000 They had to cross-check everything, make sure they had to speak to Harry Reid, they had to see the government documents, they had to verify the existence.

03:08:55.000 I mean, they really worked hard at it.

03:08:57.000 But Christopher Mellon said, well, they kind of missed it.

03:08:59.000 I said, what do you mean they missed it?

03:09:00.000 He goes, well, it's great.

03:09:01.000 They revealed the ATIP program, that secret Pentagon program.

03:09:04.000 But the bigger story was these things are real and they're here.

03:09:08.000 This is happening now.

03:09:09.000 They've been going in and out of our oceans for 270 days out of 365 in 2015. And the Navy finally just said, we can't stop them.

03:09:18.000 We've tried to intercept them.

03:09:19.000 They fly rings around us.

03:09:20.000 Just leave them alone. 0.95

03:09:23.000 That's crazy.

03:09:23.000 Crazy!

03:09:24.000 Because that's when David Fravor was communicating with the...

03:09:27.000 Was it the ship?

03:09:29.000 Who was he communicating with that was telling them...

03:09:30.000 Nimitz.

03:09:31.000 Yeah.

03:09:31.000 That we've been seeing these.

03:09:32.000 Yes.

03:09:33.000 Yeah.

03:09:33.000 On the radar.

03:09:34.000 Going up into space.

03:09:35.000 Yeah.

03:09:35.000 For weeks.

03:09:35.000 They would go from outer space.

03:09:37.000 80,000 feet was the highest we could detect them.

03:09:39.000 And then they'd shoot down to like five feet over the water.

03:09:42.000 In a second.

03:09:43.000 Like that.

03:09:44.000 Yeah.

03:09:44.000 And then just, you know, shooting around and then of course getting visual confirmation.

03:09:48.000 But they didn't even do anything for like, was it days or weeks leading up to that?

03:09:53.000 Yeah.

03:09:53.000 It's crazy.

03:09:54.000 Well, listen, your documentary is fantastic.

03:09:56.000 I really enjoyed it.

03:09:57.000 I watched it twice.

03:09:58.000 It's excellent.

03:09:59.000 Your contribution in it is amazing, too.

03:10:01.000 And I really appreciate you guys coming down here and talking about it.

03:10:04.000 And I can't recommend the documentary enough.

03:10:06.000 If you're into UFOs like I am, obviously, it's the phenomenon.

03:10:11.000 I got it off iTunes, Apple.

03:10:14.000 I was going to say, thank you for that.

03:10:16.000 I really appreciate you saying that.

03:10:17.000 But if you want to rent it, rent it.

03:10:19.000 But if you want to buy it for the same price on iTunes or Vimeo, they offer three hours of bonus free material.

03:10:26.000 So if you're going to purchase it, do it from iTunes or Vimeo.

03:10:29.000 Don't forget to rate.

03:10:30.000 And I want to put a shout out to Ernie Klein.

03:10:32.000 He's got Ready Player Two out right now.

03:10:34.000 He's been incredibly supportive of us.

03:10:36.000 He's right here from Austin, Texas.

03:10:39.000 And my writing partner, Mark Barish, has been incredibly helpful.

03:10:42.000 Jamie, didn't you just start reading Ready Player One?

03:10:44.000 Indeed.

03:10:45.000 Ready Player Two, rather?

03:10:46.000 Yeah.

03:10:46.000 The new one, yeah.

03:10:47.000 It's really good.

03:10:48.000 And people can pre-order, you know, the best kept secret.

03:10:52.000 And when will that be available?

03:10:54.000 It will be probably Q1 or early Q2. Of 2021?

03:11:00.000 Okay.

03:11:00.000 Beautiful.

03:11:01.000 Thank you, John.

03:11:02.000 Thank you, James.

03:11:02.000 It was awesome.

03:11:03.000 Thank you, Joe.

03:11:03.000 Really appreciate it.

03:11:04.000 I had a great time.

03:11:05.000 Great time.

03:11:05.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - December 04, 2020

Joe Rogan Experience #1574 - Jacques Vallee & James Fox

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