The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1645 - Christopher Mellon

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:14.000 All right.

00:00:15.000 Well, thanks for being here, man.

00:00:16.000 Appreciate it.

00:00:17.000 Pleasure.

00:00:17.000 Absolutely a pleasure.

00:00:18.000 Tell everybody who you are and what your background is.

00:00:21.000 Okay.

00:00:22.000 My name is Chris Mellon, and I spent about 20 years working for Uncle Sam, worked in the Senate for the Intelligence Committee, and for Senator Cohen, also did some Armed Services Committee work.

00:00:34.000 When he was asked to become Secretary of Defense, He asked me if I would like to go with him to the Pentagon, be part of his team, and I was honored and gladly accepted.

00:00:46.000 So I then served for four years in the Defense Department with Senator Cohen, Secretary Cohen at that point.

00:00:53.000 In various positions, all intelligence-related and security-related.

00:00:58.000 And then I was asked to stay on after Clinton departed.

00:01:03.000 And so I worked for Secretary Rumsfeld and then went back to the Senate Intelligence Committee as the Minority Staff Director shortly before the Second Iraq War.

00:01:16.000 So when did you get interested in the subject of UFOs?

00:01:21.000 That happened at a surprisingly early age.

00:01:24.000 I was seven years old at a boarding school and the principal of the school, a friend of his, had photographed a video, an old reel-to-reel Kodak movie camera, had taken a movie, a home movie of a video of a UFO flying in Beautiful blue skies,

00:01:45.000 cumulus clouds, huge golden disk that comes into the picture and banks, goes into a cloud, and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very, very hard, I think, to fake somehow, particularly in those days with no computer-generated imagery.

00:02:03.000 And it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off over the horizon.

00:02:08.000 And I was, you know, stunned and flabbergasted.

00:02:12.000 Myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars.

00:02:16.000 And it just sparked my curiosity, a lifelong curiosity.

00:02:21.000 So once you got into government, and once you were, I mean, you were there, you're basically there, you had to start asking questions.

00:02:29.000 Like, did you wait a while?

00:02:31.000 Like, how long did you ask for you?

00:02:33.000 Like, hey, what do you guys know?

00:02:35.000 Yeah, well, for a long time I waited.

00:02:39.000 Very rarely, I looked for openings, I looked for opportunities.

00:02:43.000 So, for example, you know, the stigma is so great that you're reluctant, obviously, to raise that issue.

00:02:51.000 A couple times there were some natural opportunities.

00:02:54.000 So one of my colleagues on the Intelligence Committee was going to Hawaii for some oversight trips, meetings, and he went to the Maui Space Optical Tracking Facility.

00:03:07.000 And I said to him, why are you there?

00:03:08.000 Why don't you just check and see?

00:03:10.000 Do they ever see anything weird they can't explain and so forth?

00:03:13.000 So he did, and Pete called me up and said, hey, you wouldn't believe this.

00:03:17.000 I've got this videotape here.

00:03:19.000 And it shows these weird things.

00:03:21.000 And so I talked to the Air Force people.

00:03:24.000 They sent the tape to us.

00:03:25.000 Turns out it was totally unclassified.

00:03:28.000 I showed it to Senator Cohen and some others, and it ended up on national TV, actually, but it didn't generate any further response.

00:03:42.000 Everybody just kind of threw their hands up in the air and said, well, you know, that's interesting, but...

00:03:47.000 We don't know what to do with it.

00:03:48.000 It was Ted Koppel's Nightline show that this tape was played on.

00:03:52.000 It showed sort of five objects moving parallel to the ground, possibly in formation.

00:03:58.000 They're in the atmosphere because they're burning, they're interacting with something.

00:04:03.000 You know, there's plasma coming off them, which wouldn't presumably be happening in space.

00:04:09.000 But they seem to be too slow to be meteorites.

00:04:11.000 So it was mystifying and difficult to explain.

00:04:14.000 Never did get an answer.

00:04:16.000 Occasionally something like that would happen.

00:04:18.000 By and large, the issue almost never arose. 0.58

00:04:23.000 The issue is a weird issue because if you bring it up in the wrong company or at the wrong time, you could be dismissed as a loon.

00:04:32.000 Did you feel that when you were there?

00:04:35.000 As a person who had a budding interest in unidentified flying objects and what have you...

00:04:42.000 Did you feel like this is a politically risky thing to discuss, especially to discuss in serious terms?

00:04:50.000 Do you believe in these things?

00:04:52.000 What are they?

00:04:53.000 What do we know?

00:04:55.000 Was that an issue?

00:04:56.000 Absolutely.

00:04:58.000 I concealed my interest in the topic for years and very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends, had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow traveler who was interested in this topic,

00:05:13.000 but by and large, absolutely wanted to conceal that and not reveal that.

00:05:20.000 Did you know Clinton?

00:05:22.000 No, I did not.

00:05:23.000 He would be the guy that I would go to.

00:05:26.000 There was a request that came to me once that I think was from President Clinton, and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen a UFO out at Edwards Air Force Base,

00:05:42.000 and it was videotaped, he said.

00:05:44.000 And he described this in his memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape, of the video.

00:05:51.000 And Secretary Cohen came back to the Pentagon from a meeting, and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape.

00:05:58.000 And unfortunately, I got nowhere with that.

00:06:04.000 The Air Force was adamant that there was no such tape, there was no such information.

00:06:09.000 Anything they had on UFOs had been destroyed.

00:06:12.000 So I had one of these situations that's very common in this area, which is you have just Two apparently credible sources, but utterly conflicting, irreconcilable information, which seems to happen often in this field.

00:06:27.000 Now, being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world, what's the general perception when people are discussing these things in Washington?

00:06:44.000 What's the general perception of what's going on with these things?

00:06:48.000 Well, I'm happy to say that it's changed.

00:06:50.000 That perception has changed considerably in the last few years.

00:06:53.000 People feel like they have permission to talk about it.

00:06:55.000 When do you think this happened?

00:06:56.000 This happened after the New York Times article and subsequent press beginning in 2017, December 2017. And that sort of gave people permission to talk about this.

00:07:09.000 And I've actually had Pentagon friends who said, you know, this is kind of cool.

00:07:12.000 We don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore.

00:07:15.000 What do you think kept it in the closet before?

00:07:17.000 When did the stigma start?

00:07:18.000 Do you think this was intentionally set up this way?

00:07:22.000 It was.

00:07:23.000 It was the Robertson Panel Commission, 1953, and they concluded during those Cold War days that this was a Potential threat to national security because UFO reports might overwhelm our air defense and communication system and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue.

00:07:46.000 So they actually advocated in writing that this issue be debunked and discredited and the government went ahead and did so extremely successfully, unfortunately.

00:07:59.000 And this all started with the Project Blue Book, correct?

00:08:01.000 Correct.

00:08:02.000 It was during that era.

00:08:03.000 So, what was the gentleman's name that was running Project Boo Book again?

00:08:07.000 Well, there were different people.

00:08:09.000 The guy who went on to become a believer.

00:08:14.000 So, he started debunking and was told, essentially, the way he reported it was that he was told to kind of debunk every single case.

00:08:23.000 Everything he could find, whether it was swamp gas or, you know, ball lightning, find some way to explain this away.

00:08:30.000 But then once he left Project Blue Book, he started openly discussing these cases and he started discussing his own belief.

00:08:37.000 That's correct.

00:08:38.000 And he felt badly burned as well.

00:08:41.000 Because he was trying to carry out his mandate that the Air Force had given him.

00:08:46.000 As you may recall, in one instance he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstruing swamp gas for flying objects.

00:08:56.000 And so Gerald Ford, who was representing that district, got incensed, as did the local population, and Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic.

00:09:05.000 And Dr. Hynek was very embarrassed, and understandably so.

00:09:10.000 It was really quite insulting to these people who had very clear sightings of these objects.

00:09:17.000 So he did eventually change his view publicly and was very critical of Project Blue Book.

00:09:26.000 Was all this stuff, like being inside the government and knowing how prevalent these sightings are and how credible some of them are, was it frustrating to you to be a part of this and to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted?

00:09:45.000 It's interesting.

00:09:46.000 What happened actually is that I wasn't seeing information squashed or distorted in the Pentagon or the intelligence community.

00:09:54.000 I saw one instance of a very technical, very classified report that explained away some sightings that nobody even knew were being reported otherwise.

00:10:07.000 It was kind of odd to see this explanation from About an incident that had not been otherwise reported.

00:10:15.000 What was this incident?

00:10:20.000 Doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights.

00:10:24.000 And the Directorate of Science and Technology at CIA did an extensive analysis and found a plausible explanation for what they had seen that was not extraterrestrial.

00:10:35.000 And so they published an article on that.

00:10:37.000 It was a good article, a good piece of research.

00:10:39.000 But that was about the only time I ever saw anything in writing about this subject, which the government said it wasn't following, it wasn't interested in.

00:10:49.000 I had friends who would call me up.

00:10:51.000 I had a Navy friend who was a pilot, and he said, you wouldn't believe what happened at our base today.

00:10:55.000 There was a plane up, and there was a UFO flying around it, and it landed, and he knew I was interested in this from college days, and he called me up with his hair on fire to tell me about this incident, but that kind of thing was not going up through channels.

00:11:09.000 So people in the Pentagon, to the best of my knowledge, all the way up to the SecDef, were not hearing or seeing any of these reports.

00:11:16.000 It wasn't until I met Lou Elizondo and his group and some of the Navy guys and talked to the pilots about what was happening on the East Coast from 2015 onward and the Nimitz incident that I found out that this activity had been going on and just wasn't being reported.

00:11:35.000 So, was it that no one in the Pentagon was seeking this out?

00:11:38.000 There wasn't a mandate to go look for it?

00:11:40.000 There wasn't a department that was designed to seek these things out?

00:11:45.000 What was the reason why it wasn't getting all the way to the Pentagon?

00:11:48.000 Well, specifically in the case of the Navy in 2016, just today, I believe, or yesterday, DOD announced that they're going to do an IG investigation of this incident, of this phenomenon.

00:12:02.000 What's IG mean?

00:12:02.000 The Inspector General.

00:12:04.000 Sorry.

00:12:04.000 So there's going to be an internal investigation.

00:12:06.000 Investigation at DOD of how they handled this UFO issue.

00:12:11.000 And I believe it's this is it's not clear yet.

00:12:14.000 They just made this announcement and their motives and what sparked this are still a little bit uncertain.

00:12:20.000 But it appears they're going to focus on this issue of how did this fall through the cracks for years?

00:12:25.000 How is it that these guys are flying around seeing this stuff?

00:12:29.000 It's on the radar and nobody up the chain of command is being notified.

00:12:35.000 Policymakers, the Secretary of Defense himself, Congress, etc.

00:12:40.000 It was just going into the ether.

00:12:44.000 There was no effort made to get support to any of those guys. 0.99

00:12:48.000 And that's when I kind of threw the bullshit flag and said, this is unacceptable. 0.96

00:12:54.000 And so that's when I started jumping into this. 0.98

00:12:58.000 Do you think it was because of the stigma that's attached to the subject that they just didn't bother bringing it to their superiors?

00:13:03.000 Absolutely, yeah.

00:13:05.000 People were afraid to report it.

00:13:07.000 And as we saw in the Nimitz case some years earlier in 2004. Let's explain what we're talking about.

00:13:13.000 We're talking about Commander David Fravor and his sightings off the coast of San Diego.

00:13:16.000 The tic-tac shaped UFO that moved at extraordinary speed with no known propulsion system.

00:13:22.000 They tracked it on radar.

00:13:24.000 It was actively jamming their radar.

00:13:26.000 It went to their predetermined point where they were supposed to scramble.

00:13:30.000 Yeah.

00:13:31.000 So somehow or another it had information as to where they were traveling to.

00:13:37.000 Extraordinary capability, went from 80,000 feet above sea level to one in less than a second.

00:13:42.000 They have no idea what it is, what it does.

00:13:44.000 And then the people on the Nimitz were saying they had been seeing these things.

00:13:48.000 Correct, and on the Princeton.

00:13:51.000 And when Dave and the other F-18 landed, there was no interest on the part of the intelligence officers of doing anything really other than ridiculing them.

00:14:03.000 So they came out, you know, with tin hats on and foil hats, and they were playing Men in Black's song or something.

00:14:10.000 But that case was...

00:14:11.000 Phenomenal because there were so many witnesses and so many different sensor systems that were verifying independently the visual reporting.

00:14:22.000 So there were multiple radars, there were infrared systems, perfect viewing conditions, broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, multiple aircraft, and all of the data agrees that these craft are doing things that we thought were impossible.

00:14:37.000 And then there was also the thing that led them to see it in the first place was that he thought there was something under the surface of the ocean.

00:14:45.000 What happened was he and his wingman were vectored to intercept that Tic Tac at that point when they arrived and looked down, they saw it moving around and they saw the water roiled.

00:14:57.000 In fact, I think first they saw the water before they saw the Tic Tac.

00:15:00.000 They saw something unusual.

00:15:01.000 It looked like white water breaking on a reef kind of thing.

00:15:04.000 Right.

00:15:05.000 And then they saw the Tic Tac and then Dave dove down to get close to it and it reacted to his presence, turned around, Viewed him and then started taking countermeasures.

00:15:16.000 And it was clear to the pilots in both aircraft that this thing maintained a dominant position throughout their engagement with it, that it could easily have done what it wanted to them.

00:15:29.000 They had no chance really of getting behind it or getting the upper hand in that engagement.

00:15:35.000 Yeah.

00:15:53.000 I think that's probably one of the biggest ones that led to being included in the New York Times, right?

00:15:59.000 Correct.

00:16:00.000 Absolutely.

00:16:00.000 Because it was so credible.

00:16:02.000 And then there was the Go Fast video and the FLIR video and all these other videos that show these things moving in extraordinary ways.

00:16:09.000 Correct.

00:16:10.000 And they're authentic.

00:16:11.000 The Defense Department acknowledged those videos.

00:16:14.000 Why do you think they did that?

00:16:16.000 They didn't do it initially, but ultimately they didn't have much choice.

00:16:19.000 And I think the reason that they finally did is because we had taken this issue to Congress.

00:16:29.000 I contacted some former colleagues on the committee and said, you guys really ought to look at this.

00:16:34.000 I mean, it sounds crazy, but give me a chance here.

00:16:37.000 And so a couple of them started taking interest.

00:16:40.000 Some of the staffers started meeting with some of the pilots.

00:16:42.000 When they started requesting briefings, that Coming from the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, that went up the flagpole to the top.

00:16:50.000 And the Navy brass and the senior Pentagon civilians in the Office of the Secretary of Defense became aware that these committees are taking an official interest now.

00:17:00.000 And we can't fool around with this.

00:17:02.000 And we have to really be straight and put it out there.

00:17:08.000 At that point, they couldn't tell them in private, yeah, this is real, and then publicly deny it wasn't.

00:17:13.000 So they came clean.

00:17:15.000 So this is the great shift, right?

00:17:16.000 The great shift in our time, from UFOs being ridiculed, being these silly things that tinfoil hat conspiracy theory people believe in, to the Defense Department agreeing that this is an issue.

00:17:31.000 That's correct.

00:17:32.000 Very interesting to me.

00:17:33.000 I saw your interview with Elon Musk, and he seemed unaware as...

00:17:38.000 He's an alien, bro.

00:17:39.000 Listen, he's covering up. 0.85

00:17:41.000 Maybe he's part of the cover-up.

00:17:42.000 Because he seemed unaware that his own government is...

00:17:45.000 Has taken the position that UFOs are real.

00:17:48.000 I got Elon in trouble because we smoked pot on the show.

00:17:51.000 I heard about that!

00:17:52.000 And when he got in trouble, his top secret clearance was in trouble, and there was a lot going on.

00:17:56.000 And I think he's trying to play it straight and narrow when he's around me now.

00:17:59.000 Like aliens, outrageous.

00:18:01.000 I was advised that getting high in the program Would that be a good thing to do?

00:18:06.000 Yeah, it's not a good move.

00:18:07.000 Don't do it.

00:18:08.000 If you want to drink, that's probably a better move.

00:18:09.000 I'll stick to the coffee.

00:18:11.000 Okay, stick to the coffee.

00:18:11.000 That's a good move.

00:18:12.000 We want to be clear here, right?

00:18:14.000 We want to be clear-headed when we discuss this because it's such...

00:18:18.000 It's such an easily ridiculed thing.

00:18:21.000 You know, it's one of those things like psychics and Bigfoot.

00:18:24.000 You bring it up and people just automatically start rolling their eyes.

00:18:28.000 But statistically, if you just look at the size of the universe and you look at the fact that there's so many Goldilocks zone planets that they've already discovered, and then also the wide variety of life that exists in various conditions on Earth,

00:18:45.000 who knows, right?

00:18:48.000 Whether or not these things are living in the ocean.

00:18:51.000 This is what's bizarre to me, is there's a lot of these sightings.

00:18:54.000 The one in Hawaii recently, and there's another one that Jeremy Corbell leaked, this photograph that shows something disappearing into the ocean.

00:19:03.000 There seems to be multiple sightings and multiple witnesses that discuss things going into the ocean.

00:19:12.000 Yeah, that is absolutely true.

00:19:15.000 In terms of backing up on your question there a little bit, you know, people ask me, do you believe in aliens?

00:19:23.000 And that's really not the question or the issue for most people.

00:19:27.000 There are probably, in an infinite universe, an infinite number of alien civilizations.

00:19:32.000 The question is, you know, could we ever communicate with them or have contact, right?

00:19:36.000 So what's interesting about that to me, in part, is that We have NASA spending billions to try to find alien life, even if it's microbial.

00:19:46.000 We have Yuri Milner spending hundreds of millions and supporting the SETI program.

00:19:51.000 And meanwhile, we have these things flying around our atmosphere.

00:19:55.000 That we're seeing on the radar that kind of look and act like what you might expect if somebody sent a probe.

00:20:01.000 If somebody followed the trajectory, we're on ourselves today.

00:20:05.000 And they're doing incredible things that we don't understand, and yet the scientific community and the government have not wanted to dare to ask the question in this context that they ask every day in this other context with NASA and spend billions of dollars on.

00:20:24.000 And there's no crosstalk.

00:20:26.000 You know, scientifically, we would expect actually, you know, they're listening for these signals from outer space, but it's more efficient to send probes and it's safer.

00:20:36.000 And that's what we are doing ourselves.

00:20:38.000 And so that's what would probably be more likely.

00:20:42.000 A probe would give more information.

00:20:44.000 It wouldn't reveal the location or the source of the civilization that was sending it.

00:20:50.000 You know, it's more dynamic and versatile.

00:20:53.000 It could get closer to the target, etc.

00:20:55.000 There's all kinds of advantages, including energy.

00:20:59.000 And it would be easy for a civilization more advanced than ours, we're getting on the cusp of this ourselves, to create using artificial intelligence probes that were self-sufficient, launch them out in whatever numbers, let them go see what they find and report back.

00:21:15.000 And that's entirely plausible.

00:21:18.000 There's no scientific reason for thinking that that couldn't happen.

00:21:22.000 Moreover, if even one spacefaring society started to expand outward as we are in our galaxy, in the Milky Way, within a tiny fraction of the lifetime of the Milky Way, they could explore and colonize the entire galaxy.

00:21:38.000 So even if, you know, they haven't achieved superluminal travel, they can't violate the speed of light and go faster than that, if they went, say, 20% the speed of light, And just continued to steadily expand their domain and explore outward in the space of two or three million years,

00:21:56.000 they could have gone from one end of the galaxy to the other.

00:21:59.000 So, you know, it's not an unreasonable proposition.

00:22:03.000 It's a question of getting the facts.

00:22:06.000 And it's about time some of us think that we take it seriously and start looking at it.

00:22:11.000 Do most people who look at this believe that this is some sort of a probe?

00:22:16.000 Like when you look at the Tic Tac video?

00:22:19.000 Dave himself says it's not from around here.

00:22:23.000 It wasn't made here.

00:22:24.000 Not made by us.

00:22:25.000 And he doesn't propose to say where it's from.

00:22:28.000 Some people suspect, as you suggest, that it could be ultra-terrestrial.

00:22:33.000 It could be something inherently from our planet under the ocean that's been here forever.

00:22:38.000 For a long, long time, perhaps a way station that some AI established that just is a waypoint here and monitors what's going on in this planet and stays under the ocean, comes out, looks around, reports back,

00:22:54.000 and just has been doing that for thousands of years, but not aliens coming and going.

00:23:00.000 There's all manner of theories, that's one of them.

00:23:03.000 But I would say that on the inside, the people that are really close to this in the Pentagon, They face the dilemma we all face, which is what hypothesis can explain what we're seeing that is prosaic,

00:23:19.000 that doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or something like that.

00:23:24.000 It's very hard for us to believe that the Chinese or the Russians are that far ahead of us in such basic technology, such fundamental technologies.

00:23:36.000 Perhaps it's true, and that's Got its own set of problems, but either way, we need to get to the bottom of it.

00:23:41.000 That's my position, at least.

00:23:44.000 Yeah, there's some of these things that it's not outside the realm of possibility that it's a drone.

00:23:48.000 Like the most recent video, the pyramid-shaped objects that are flying around.

00:23:53.000 You've seen that, right?

00:23:54.000 Absolutely, yeah.

00:23:55.000 What was your take on those things?

00:23:57.000 You know, I want to see the rest of the data.

00:23:59.000 They've got radar data on that.

00:24:01.000 And from the radar data, they should be able to gain some real insights as to where these things are coming from and going to, trajectories, speeds, all that kind of thing.

00:24:11.000 That hasn't been released, right?

00:24:12.000 That has not been released.

00:24:13.000 They're still analyzing that.

00:24:15.000 I don't think that they will comment publicly on that, unfortunately.

00:24:19.000 But they do have that information.

00:24:21.000 And other information.

00:24:24.000 So we should be able to gain some insights.

00:24:27.000 It's entirely possible that they are drones.

00:24:30.000 Tyler Rogoway is a brilliant analyst of aviation issues who works for the war zone.

00:24:36.000 He's written a very lengthy piece making that assertion.

00:24:42.000 Could be right.

00:24:43.000 I'm a little skeptical, but we'll see.

00:24:46.000 That's why we need more data.

00:24:48.000 What do you say?

00:24:48.000 Well, the duration of flight was far longer than drones routinely can perform.

00:24:55.000 What was the duration?

00:24:56.000 Hours.

00:24:57.000 So typically, if it's an electric drone, it has a very short flight time.

00:25:04.000 These ships were 100 miles off the coast.

00:25:08.000 In conditions of low visibility.

00:25:10.000 And so whoever was operating these things was traversing a long distance probably.

00:25:16.000 There were only a few other ships in the area.

00:25:18.000 And they know what those ships were and they deny that they were operating these craft.

00:25:24.000 So they were in the air a long time.

00:25:26.000 They were very rigorous in the manner in which they operated as a unit.

00:25:32.000 They clearly intended to get our attention.

00:25:34.000 They were operating in a manner that suggests they were trying to provoke our air defense systems, see how we would react, you know, maybe see what frequencies we start communicating on, what actions we take, and so forth.

00:25:48.000 It's the kind of thing we sometimes do ourselves to the potential adversaries to help game the situation out.

00:25:56.000 You know, I have a completely open mind on it.

00:25:59.000 I just want to see the evidence, but there's some features of this that if they are drones, they're probably more advanced than anything we have.

00:26:08.000 Now, one of them was flashing, right?

00:26:11.000 Jamie, see if you can find that video.

00:26:13.000 Is that your breathing?

00:26:15.000 It is.

00:26:16.000 I was trying to figure out what that noise was.

00:26:19.000 See if you can find that video.

00:26:23.000 I've had my COVID test.

00:26:24.000 No, I don't think there's anything wrong with you.

00:26:26.000 I was just trying to figure out what that one was.

00:26:27.000 The one with the flashing light?

00:26:29.000 Yes.

00:26:29.000 That one?

00:26:29.000 Okay.

00:26:29.000 Yeah.

00:26:30.000 Have you seen...

00:26:31.000 I've seen that, and it looks like it's flashing sort of the way an airplane would.

00:26:35.000 Right.

00:26:36.000 That's why...

00:26:36.000 At the same rate.

00:26:38.000 But what's odd about that is you're in a restricted military airspace.

00:26:43.000 Commercial aircraft have transponders.

00:26:45.000 You would know if they were commercial aircraft.

00:26:48.000 They're looking at the radar picture, so they would know from that if it's a commercial aircraft.

00:26:53.000 It's hard to understand, if it was a commercial aircraft of some kind, or even a private plane, why they wouldn't be able to identify it.

00:27:03.000 Yeah, well, the flashing, I mean, there.

00:27:06.000 See, you can see it here.

00:27:08.000 So this is the leaked footage, courtesy of Jeremy Corbell.

00:27:13.000 So, like, you see it.

00:27:14.000 Now, either it's reflecting something that's flashing...

00:27:20.000 Off the ship?

00:27:22.000 Or it's flashing itself?

00:27:24.000 And there was three of them that they tracked, right?

00:27:26.000 I think that's the right number, yeah.

00:27:28.000 The thing about these things is, yeah, it's extraordinary, it's crazy looking, it's weird to see these pyramids floating through the sky, but they're not moving like the tic-tac.

00:27:37.000 It's not doing something that we can't do.

00:27:39.000 It's just, you see them move around, it's really weird, but it's...

00:27:44.000 It's not definitive evidence of anything at this point.

00:27:48.000 It's strange, it's peculiar that it's happening around a warship, and that our guys don't know what it is, and it looks like some of these things are entering and leaving the water, which is...

00:27:58.000 Yeah.

00:27:58.000 Really peculiar.

00:28:00.000 So it's an example of the kind of thing that we just haven't been looking at that's going on.

00:28:05.000 We've been blowing off.

00:28:06.000 Right.

00:28:07.000 And now we're finally getting some traction and getting the government to say, you know, yeah, we probably really ought to pay attention to this.

00:28:13.000 Do you think that there's more frequent sightings, or do you think they're being reported more now?

00:28:21.000 There are certainly more reports coming in, civilian and military.

00:28:26.000 The technology that we have today is leaps and bounds over what we had even a few years ago in terms of resolution, distance, range, all those kinds of things.

00:28:38.000 The latest generation of radars that are being deployed are a huge step forward from what was in the fleet just a few years ago.

00:28:46.000 So that is probably leading to some reporting that we didn't have before, things that were out there, but the radar cross-section was so low they weren't appearing on people's scopes.

00:28:55.000 So I think it's probably a mixture of things, but what is concerning in part is that some of this activity is more in-your-face kind of stuff.

00:29:03.000 It's more like not elusive, you know, on the edge.

00:29:08.000 You see it and it flies away.

00:29:09.000 It's coming to a nuclear power station and buzzing around it and staying there.

00:29:15.000 It's coming around these warships and making a point of being seen.

00:29:18.000 It's coming to an Air Force base in Guam and doing the same thing.

00:29:24.000 So that's new and that's a little concerning.

00:29:28.000 Yeah.

00:29:28.000 And haven't there been reports of them showing up around missiles and doing something with the launch codes or stopping the power from working in these places or something along those lines?

00:29:40.000 Some sort of manipulation of the power systems, almost to let you know.

00:29:46.000 Yeah, this is one of the most provocative and fascinating and important stories in this whole area of UFOs and national security.

00:29:55.000 And we have retired Air Force officers who've testified to this, and there are FOIA documents that support these claims.

00:30:02.000 But the Air Force has never been asked by Congress or anyone to address this.

00:30:07.000 They've never acknowledged it.

00:30:09.000 There's an opportunity to do that now, and I think it's long overdue.

00:30:13.000 This is stunning, if it's true.

00:30:16.000 I mean, this is the backbone of our nuclear deterrence strategy.

00:30:20.000 It's really the crown jewels of our freedom and independence and ability to deter nuclear powers like Russia and China. 0.82

00:30:30.000 You know, this is kind of the ultimate insurance policy militarily that we have.

00:30:34.000 If someone can come in there and turn these things off, it's just shocking.

00:30:41.000 Absolutely shocking.

00:30:43.000 Because of the stigma, Congress has been unwilling even to ask the question, even in private.

00:30:50.000 Even though this is very well documented and these people have come out in their retired uniforms and things and with their documentation showing where they were assigned.

00:31:01.000 In one of these cases, out at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe it was, there's a good book because the local sheriff was responding to so many calls from civilians in the area to UFOs that were being seen and encountered.

00:31:14.000 He co-authored a book on what was happening.

00:31:16.000 So there's a lot of data about this, but yet there's no official confirmation that that occurred.

00:31:22.000 Yeah, the sheer volume, I would like to know whether or not they are increasing in volume or whether or not it is just an increase in our ability to detect them.

00:31:33.000 And we don't really know, right?

00:31:35.000 Because it's been 2017, so it's not that long ago, four years when it really started being something that people were willing to take seriously.

00:31:43.000 Because of the New York Times article and because there's just a few videos that are pretty extraordinary. 0.99

00:31:49.000 The go fast video when you hear the pilots going, what the fuck? 0.93

00:31:52.000 And you're watching that thing buzz across the water with no heat signature. 0.96

00:31:57.000 In terms of reporting, there has definitely been an increase, a surge the last 12 or so months.

00:32:04.000 And you see this on the public side with organizations that track these things, the Mutual UFO Network and so forth.

00:32:11.000 They've had a surge of maybe 20%.

00:32:13.000 Some people think, well, maybe it's COVID, more people are outside looking at the night sky.

00:32:19.000 That could be some of it.

00:32:21.000 There are more reports that are coming with video and photographs these days.

00:32:26.000 If you look at these websites, New Fork and MUFON, from say 10 years ago, not so many people had cell phones in their pockets.

00:32:34.000 Routinely now, you'll see very strange photographs and videos.

00:32:38.000 Frequently, most of the time, there's a prosaic explanation, but But not always.

00:32:43.000 And so my sense is that there's probably a little bit of both going on.

00:32:48.000 More activity, some of it's a little bolder than we've seen in the past, but also better instrumentation to record this.

00:32:57.000 Another thing that's happening, certainly on the government side, this is the big thing, is that people are less afraid to report it.

00:33:04.000 So there was a lot of stuff going on.

00:33:06.000 We don't know how much because nobody was reporting it.

00:33:09.000 And I've been in meetings with people at the Pentagon with guys who were commander of an AWACS aircraft, for example.

00:33:18.000 And they'd say, yeah, you know, we saw some really weird stuff, but we weren't telling anybody about it.

00:33:22.000 You know, we tore up the files.

00:33:24.000 Guys at the National Security Agency or other places who said, I kept a book of, you know, anomalies, weird things.

00:33:31.000 And then I didn't turn it over to my replacement.

00:33:33.000 I just tore it up.

00:33:34.000 So we have blinded ourselves.

00:33:38.000 We've done this to ourselves.

00:33:40.000 And we're playing catch up now. 1.00

00:33:41.000 Well, unfortunately, some people are full of shit, and that muddies the water, right? 1.00

00:33:46.000 Some people do make things up. 1.00

00:33:47.000 Absolutely.

00:33:47.000 That didn't help, for sure.

00:33:49.000 Yeah.

00:33:49.000 What do you think about mass sightings?

00:33:51.000 What was your take on, say, the Phoenix Lights?

00:33:55.000 Yeah, that's fascinating.

00:33:58.000 And there are a number of these mass sighting cases, and not just in the U.S. There was a soccer match in Italy.

00:34:04.000 Reportedly with 10,000 fans at a stadium.

00:34:07.000 The game came to a screeching halt.

00:34:09.000 People watched this thing overhead.

00:34:11.000 There have been some mass sightings in Brazil and other places.

00:34:14.000 The Phoenix case, what I find most intriguing about that, one of the things, is that Fife Symington, the governor of Arizona, who's a former Air Force officer, himself said after the fact, he saw this thing and it was not a plane, it was not flares,

00:34:30.000 as some of the Air Force contended.

00:34:32.000 And that was the triangle-shaped object that was enormous.

00:34:36.000 You said it was at least a football field long, maybe several football fields.

00:34:40.000 Correct.

00:34:41.000 Huge.

00:34:42.000 And hundreds, if not thousands of people saw this.

00:34:44.000 They had very similar sightings.

00:34:46.000 Yeah, very similar.

00:34:47.000 And it was coming down from, there was quite a path of sightings.

00:34:51.000 Is there a video?

00:34:53.000 I'm sorry to interrupt you.

00:34:53.000 Is there a video of the triangle?

00:34:55.000 Not that I know of.

00:34:57.000 I've not seen it if there is.

00:34:58.000 The videos are all just the lights that are in the sky, right?

00:35:01.000 Yeah.

00:35:02.000 And they said that they were flares, but they're hovering.

00:35:06.000 Right.

00:35:07.000 Yeah.

00:35:08.000 Because it takes a long time for, I mean...

00:35:10.000 There were flares out that night.

00:35:13.000 And so that muddies the waters, right?

00:35:15.000 I think they determined there were actually some aircraft doing an exercise to drop some flares, but this seems to be something apart from that, at least, what Fife Simeton and many others reported, hard to reconcile with the flare exercise.

00:35:31.000 Well, the problem with the flare analogy is unless the flares are suspended with balloons where they were slowly lowering from the sky, it doesn't make any sense.

00:35:40.000 Because they're hovering.

00:35:42.000 I mean, they might have been flares suspended by balloons and slowly making their way down.

00:35:47.000 But, you know, see if you can find the Phoenix Lights video.

00:35:50.000 It's weird.

00:35:51.000 Because if they would just drop flares, they would drop.

00:35:54.000 The speed of gravity would be normal.

00:35:57.000 I mean...

00:35:58.000 Well, in some cases, people also saw these lights moving in formation.

00:36:02.000 Yeah.

00:36:02.000 So, as far as I know, flares don't do that.

00:36:04.000 I've seen flares, and that's not what I observed.

00:36:07.000 And this was what, the 90s?

00:36:08.000 Was this the 90s?

00:36:09.000 This was 80, late 80s, I believe.

00:36:12.000 Was it?

00:36:12.000 And, you know, drone technology back then was pretty unsophisticated, right?

00:36:17.000 Correct.

00:36:18.000 The kind of drones we have now, so here it is, like... 0.90

00:36:22.000 Get the fuck out of here.

00:36:23.000 That's not flares. 0.99

00:36:25.000 Those things are not dropping.

00:36:26.000 They're just hovering there.

00:36:27.000 It's very strange.

00:36:30.000 It doesn't look like a flare to me, also the way flares illuminate, the way they radiate light.

00:36:37.000 It could be some different kind of flare.

00:36:39.000 It could be, instead of a flare, it could be some sort of massive LED light.

00:36:45.000 Because the sheer size, too, when you look at them hovering over the city, you have to take into account that, if you look at that image right there, You have to take into account everything you're looking down there is buildings and windows and street lights and all that jazz.

00:36:59.000 Those things have to be massive to make that much illumination while they're in the sky.

00:37:05.000 If you just had a flashlight and you were hanging a flashlight in the sky, like what is that?

00:37:09.000 A thousand feet in the air or so?

00:37:10.000 Who knows?

00:37:11.000 Whatever it is.

00:37:12.000 Probably a thousand feet.

00:37:13.000 A couple thousand feet.

00:37:14.000 If you had a couple thousand feet up in the air and you had a flashlight, you could barely see that thing.

00:37:18.000 Absolutely right.

00:37:19.000 No way.

00:37:19.000 You wouldn't see it like that.

00:37:21.000 Whatever that is, hovering over that city, that's bizarre.

00:37:25.000 And whatever that is, it was seen by people hundreds of miles in both directions.

00:37:31.000 Yeah.

00:37:32.000 So it wasn't just Phoenix.

00:37:34.000 It was reported in the sequencing all fits.

00:37:39.000 There was something that appeared to be flying down from Nevada, entered...

00:37:44.000 Northwestern Arizona, continued over Phoenix, and then down south.

00:37:48.000 And people along that pathway were reporting this, hundreds of people.

00:37:51.000 Yeah, and this, we were watching the video, it just stays there.

00:37:54.000 Like, it's not dropping.

00:37:56.000 Yeah, and this one's not moving, which is curious, too.

00:37:58.000 Yeah, if it was going to drop, it would...

00:38:00.000 I mean, if it was just dropped out of a plane as a flare, I mean, for sure, it would be way lower by now.

00:38:06.000 Like, those things are flying, whatever that is.

00:38:08.000 Look at her, she's freaking out. 0.99

00:38:09.000 The flares I have seen in military exercises dropped pretty steady rate.

00:38:14.000 Yeah, yeah, it's pretty clear.

00:38:15.000 It looks like something dropping.

00:38:19.000 That's something hovering.

00:38:20.000 There was a few other ones that have taken place.

00:38:24.000 The African school children.

00:38:26.000 Ariel?

00:38:27.000 Yeah.

00:38:28.000 That's a crazy one.

00:38:29.000 It is crazy.

00:38:30.000 And there are other cases like that.

00:38:32.000 There's a case very similar in Australia.

00:38:36.000 Supposedly thousands of people were witnesses to that event.

00:38:41.000 And there were dozens, at least 50 school children who saw this thing and teachers.

00:38:48.000 But yeah, that's really bizarre.

00:38:51.000 And that's part of the challenge with this phenomenon is...

00:39:01.000 It reminds me a little bit of...

00:39:12.000 Galileo, when he was before the Inquisition for claiming that, you know, it's a heliocentric solar system, we're going around the sun.

00:39:20.000 And he said, you know, just look through the telescope, guys.

00:39:23.000 Come on, look through the telescope.

00:39:24.000 They wouldn't look through the telescope.

00:39:26.000 When you bring this issue up, a lot of people just stop right there.

00:39:29.000 They don't want to hear anything else.

00:39:30.000 They don't want to talk anymore about it.

00:39:32.000 They're done.

00:39:33.000 So it's a challenge.

00:39:35.000 I do think there has been a shift.

00:39:38.000 I agree with you that the big one was the New York Times, but I also think the Bob Lazar documentary was a big one too.

00:39:45.000 Because when you listen to Bob talk over long periods of time, and you hear him describe what it is that he saw, what he supposedly worked on in the late 80s, and the way he described the propulsion system, which is exactly the same way that tic-tac thing moves.

00:40:01.000 That's what's bizarre.

00:40:03.000 It's like in the other one, was it the FLIR video?

00:40:06.000 Which video where it turns sideways before it takes off?

00:40:09.000 That's gimbal.

00:40:09.000 Gimbal, I'm sorry.

00:40:10.000 When you watch that video, you're like...

00:40:13.000 The one where it's rotating?

00:40:14.000 Yeah.

00:40:14.000 That's gimbal, yeah.

00:40:15.000 What's really also interesting about gimbal...

00:40:19.000 Is that off the screen, there's a formation of UFOs flying towards the gimbal and the Navy aircraft that are there.

00:40:29.000 And when you hear the one guy remark, one of the pilots, he says, look, dude, there's a whole fleet of them out there.

00:40:33.000 That's what he's referring to.

00:40:35.000 There was a V-shaped formation of these objects approaching.

00:40:38.000 The gimbal, which then veered away and flew off.

00:40:41.000 And so you don't have any idea what those were.

00:40:43.000 Yeah, the gimbal one is weird.

00:40:45.000 And I've seen people try to debunk it, too.

00:40:47.000 And it's so strange when people try to debunk things that you really can't explain.

00:40:51.000 So here you see this thing move.

00:40:53.000 It's moving.

00:40:54.000 And then at one point, it turns sideways.

00:40:58.000 So they're switching between different ways of viewing it.

00:41:02.000 And they're trying to figure out what it is.

00:41:03.000 But this is just, what is this, infrared?

00:41:06.000 Is that what this is?

00:41:07.000 Correct.

00:41:07.000 Forward-looking infrared radar.

00:41:09.000 And so they're tracking it, trying to figure out what it does, and then you see it rotate.

00:41:15.000 And that's bizarre.

00:41:16.000 Yeah, and there's a strong headwind, so it can't be a balloon.

00:41:20.000 The headwind's like 120 knots or something.

00:41:24.000 And then off-camera, as I said, you've got this formation approaching, this V-shaped formation of craft, and they don't have transponders either.

00:41:31.000 What the hell are they doing in there?

00:41:32.000 And did they get footage of the formation?

00:41:35.000 I don't believe so.

00:41:36.000 Now how does this footage get out?

00:41:38.000 Did somebody leak it?

00:41:39.000 Yeah.

00:41:40.000 But leak sounds pejorative.

00:41:45.000 Let me try to put a positive spin on this.

00:41:48.000 Somebody...

00:41:49.000 Released it.

00:41:49.000 Yeah.

00:41:50.000 They went through a proper process and it came with documentation that said approve for public release.

00:41:56.000 It wasn't like it just went out the back door.

00:41:59.000 The rub in part is that public affairs didn't know about it so they got their nose out of joint.

00:42:04.000 But it actually had gone through an official review and had documentation saying approve for public release.

00:42:12.000 Wow, that's interesting.

00:42:13.000 I wonder why they've decided to approve that for public release.

00:42:18.000 Well, there were some people on the inside who were worried that this issue was not getting any attention and were very concerned about what was happening, very concerned about the national security situation.

00:42:31.000 I had actually introduced Lou Elizondo, who was leading a small effort in the Pentagon to try to track this activity, to two people who were direct reports to General Mattis.

00:42:43.000 And so when I first found out this was going on and it was falling through the cracks, I thought, well, maybe we can get this up to the front office and at least make them aware.

00:42:54.000 And unfortunately, after several meetings and bringing pilots in, these individuals became aware that, yes, indeed, something is happening.

00:43:05.000 But they were concerned that General Mattis might be contaminated politically from even taking a briefing.

00:43:13.000 They were very protective of his reputation and his stature, which is understandable.

00:43:19.000 You mean contaminated if he took a briefing?

00:43:21.000 Just from hearing the briefing.

00:43:22.000 People would question his sanity or something.

00:43:26.000 So they didn't want that to happen, and this was kind of happening out of normal channels, which are It's suffocating in the Defense Department.

00:43:34.000 Normally, any memo to go to the SecDef has to get routed through like 14 or 17 different offices.

00:43:41.000 All have to approve.

00:43:42.000 And if they have a question, it stops the process and they have to be briefed and convinced to sign on.

00:43:47.000 And then it goes into a line with thousands of other packages.

00:43:51.000 So this is an attempt to sort of expedite this and get it to a senior level.

00:43:55.000 Is that one of the more extraordinary things about the fact this stuff is being released, the fact that everything generally does have to go through so many levels, that they are kind of throwing their hands up in the air and going, we have to do something or say something?

00:44:08.000 Well, there were a few, I won't call them whistleblowers, but there were a few people who were very concerned and willing to take this out of normal channels because It wasn't even that people were having trouble moving along.

00:44:25.000 It wasn't going anywhere.

00:44:27.000 NORAD didn't even know.

00:44:29.000 The North American Aerospace Defense Command was not even being notified that this was happening right off the coast.

00:44:34.000 Now, when you look at the gimbal video, did they have some sort of a radar on this before they went and tried to meet up with it?

00:44:44.000 Like, how did they find out where this thing was?

00:44:46.000 I don't know in that case.

00:44:47.000 I know for certain in the case of the Tic Tac in 2004 with Commander Fravor that the Princeton was guiding them with its Aegis radar to the intercept point and tracking it afterward when it went to the cap point.

00:45:02.000 In this case, I suspect it was a ship guiding them, but it may have been their onboard radars because they have very sophisticated radars.

00:45:12.000 And the pilots that I've spoken with out there said, we would see these things all the time.

00:45:16.000 Yeah.

00:45:16.000 We'd see them showing up on the radar all the time.

00:45:19.000 And a couple of times, guys just went to investigate for themselves.

00:45:22.000 They had enough fuel or coming back from an exercise and said, I'm going to go check that thing out.

00:45:28.000 And so I'm not sure in this particular case, which it was, but it could have been either.

00:45:35.000 I think something to take into consideration is the vast spans of the ocean, too.

00:45:39.000 I mean, if you were going to try to hide something, you know, as it were in plain sight, there's no better place to do it than the ocean.

00:45:46.000 I mean, there's nothing out there.

00:45:48.000 It's mostly a desert, a giant wet desert, right?

00:45:51.000 Yeah, it's vast and largely unexplored and unknown and inaccessible.

00:45:56.000 We do have the ability to, if we become interested in a particular area, To really do some serious reconnaissance underwater, we have resources, but again, somebody has to make a decision.

00:46:10.000 How specific do we have to be in terms of, like, it's not like they can look at the entire Pacific Ocean, right?

00:46:15.000 Certainly not, but, you know, with bottom scanning, sonars, and things like that, they can cover pretty large areas.

00:46:23.000 And do they do this from a ship?

00:46:26.000 They can do it from ships, they can do it from submarines, they can do it from various kinds of platforms.

00:46:34.000 But would it be like being in California on a plane trying to look at the entire country?

00:46:40.000 No.

00:46:41.000 I mean, in the case of the Nimitz, for example, they had a lat-long where they had the intercept.

00:46:46.000 So they had a very precise location.

00:46:48.000 And looking under the ocean...

00:46:50.000 Lat-long being latitude and longitude.

00:46:51.000 Latitude and longitude where that incident occurred, where they vectored the jets to.

00:46:55.000 So looking a few square miles around that area would have been very feasible.

00:46:59.000 That would have been feasible, a few square miles.

00:47:01.000 It depends on how much resolution you want.

00:47:04.000 So if you want really precise resolution, there's always a trade-off then in the time it takes to cover an area.

00:47:11.000 So they could do a larger area more quickly at a lower resolution.

00:47:16.000 But to really look closely and carefully, The sonar to water sounds like a radar, kind of.

00:47:22.000 But when it's focused, it can give you a very strong picture of what you're looking at.

00:47:28.000 And it can also detect metal.

00:47:32.000 It'll bounce off more strongly.

00:47:34.000 You get a stronger signal and things.

00:47:35.000 So they can do a pretty efficient search if they want to.

00:47:39.000 That's assuming that this thing is still going to be there.

00:47:41.000 Right, if it were, or if there was still something down there.

00:47:44.000 That it doesn't recognize that they're there, like the Tic Tac did, and blocked their tracking, which it did, right?

00:47:50.000 Correct.

00:47:51.000 There was interference.

00:47:54.000 Not with Dave, I think, but at the cap point...

00:48:00.000 Where yet another F-18 the same day went out, Chad Underwood.

00:48:05.000 That's when they got video of it, right?

00:48:06.000 That's when they got the FLIR video, and he could not get a lock-on.

00:48:10.000 And as I recall, he felt his system was being interfered with.

00:48:14.000 Yeah.

00:48:15.000 So, what I was getting at, though, is it's not like we can drop something in the Pacific Ocean and get a detailed map of the entire ocean.

00:48:24.000 No.

00:48:25.000 Hell no.

00:48:25.000 No.

00:48:26.000 Yeah.

00:48:26.000 Impossible.

00:48:27.000 It kind of would be like looking at the entire country from California in a plane.

00:48:31.000 Like, you're going to miss a lot.

00:48:33.000 There's no way you're going to see the whole thing.

00:48:35.000 What's interesting, I mean, from overhead imagery now, even commercial imagery, with artificial intelligence, You know, we're able to pretty much map the world every day, and if you have a particular profile you're looking for with these computer algorithms, you can search all that imagery fairly quickly.

00:48:53.000 So, the reconnaissance capabilities are extensive, and you can cover large areas, particularly if you're looking for a particular thing, and you can describe it well, so that if it sees a match, if the computer sees a match,

00:49:08.000 it identifies it.

00:49:10.000 There is a lot, there's just mountains of data coming into this panoply of sensors that we have from thousands of miles out in space to closer in space to the air, ground, sea, undersea.

00:49:24.000 There's a layer, a mesh network around the entire planet, essentially.

00:49:30.000 Except in the ocean.

00:49:31.000 Well, in the ocean we have sensors, but it's not the same kind of coverage.

00:49:36.000 We kind of have to get lucky.

00:49:38.000 I mean, it depends.

00:49:39.000 Certain areas are very closely monitored.

00:49:41.000 Choke points, for example, are going to be natural places.

00:49:43.000 You're going to want to look carefully.

00:49:46.000 And certain kinds of things are going to give a pretty strong signature.

00:49:51.000 But that gets off pretty quickly into the area that is confidential.

00:49:56.000 The government keeps confidential.

00:49:58.000 I bet they do.

00:49:59.000 But I would imagine, though, that if I was an alien, I would definitely hide in the ocean.

00:50:03.000 I would say that's the move.

00:50:04.000 It'd be a great place to do it.

00:50:06.000 Yeah, you can fly around in there.

00:50:07.000 There was a sub accompanying the Nimitz carrier battle group, and it didn't detect anything in the water.

00:50:14.000 So there may be an ability to move underwater and remain undetected, much as there's an ability in the air to go at supersonic speeds without creating a shockwave.

00:50:26.000 Whatever this technology is, it has some very unusual properties.

00:50:30.000 Yeah, that's the bizarre thing, right?

00:50:32.000 The supersonic speeds.

00:50:34.000 And then that brings us to Lazar's depiction of how these things worked.

00:50:40.000 That they somehow or another bend gravity.

00:50:43.000 These things that he worked on, which is the model that's on the desk there.

00:50:47.000 That's supposedly a detailed model of what that thing looked like that he worked on.

00:50:51.000 The sport model, I think they called it.

00:50:53.000 That's what he called it, yeah.

00:50:54.000 When you watch him talk and you hear him give his description of his time working there and what he saw and what he thinks those things are, what was your take on that?

00:51:06.000 I thought it was curious and interesting.

00:51:08.000 I mean, I've been to Area 51. I didn't see any flying saucers or anything like that.

00:51:14.000 What did you see?

00:51:16.000 I saw Defense Department experiments being performed and training activities and that sort of thing.

00:51:25.000 Nothing that the taxpayer would object to.

00:51:29.000 Of course not.

00:51:31.000 But it's a big range.

00:51:31.000 There's a lot of stuff going on out there, and there's a lot of adjacent ranges, if you look at the map, actually.

00:51:36.000 Areas 4, where he was.

00:51:37.000 That's what he said, yeah.

00:51:39.000 That's what he said.

00:51:40.000 What's your take on him?

00:51:40.000 I found his explanations curious.

00:51:42.000 Yeah?

00:51:43.000 How so?

00:51:44.000 The complexity of it, and the fact that he talked about Laurentium, for example, and Then decades later, it turns out that apparently there is a more stable form of that.

00:51:57.000 That's Element 115?

00:51:59.000 Sounds right.

00:52:00.000 I couldn't tell you for sure.

00:52:01.000 But it's called Laurentium?

00:52:02.000 Laurentium.

00:52:02.000 That sounds like something from Battlestar Galactica.

00:52:05.000 You know, we need Laurentium to power the ship.

00:52:07.000 All this stuff takes you into that, right?

00:52:09.000 Right.

00:52:10.000 So, now, I'm a little skeptical about his claims, I have to say.

00:52:15.000 A friend of mine...

00:52:19.000 Claims to know the gal who was his supervisor when he worked out there and knows what he was actually doing and where he was located.

00:52:28.000 And claims that he was a guy who checked radiation on badges.

00:52:33.000 That's it?

00:52:34.000 Yeah.

00:52:34.000 And so all the rest is fiction.

00:52:38.000 According to that story.

00:52:39.000 And this is a person that you know?

00:52:41.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:52:42.000 Maybe that person's full of shit. 1.00

00:52:43.000 Maybe. 1.00

00:52:43.000 I don't have the ground truth on this, but... 1.00

00:52:47.000 It's interesting.

00:52:47.000 He did falsify his educational records, and he's been involved in some other things, and it just doesn't track...

00:52:55.000 Are you talking about the MIT records?

00:52:57.000 Yeah.

00:52:58.000 He explained that to me.

00:52:59.000 He said that he was working on something for the government, and they sent him to MIT to...

00:53:08.000 Learn something and he I can't say too much I'll tell you off air because he told me not to talk about it but it makes more sense when you hear his description of it that essentially It wasn't documented that he was studying there because what he was doing was Really a terrible thing a terrible experiment.

00:53:27.000 They're working on when I explain to you Maybe it'll make more sense.

00:53:31.000 Okay Maybe not, though. 1.00

00:53:34.000 Maybe he's full of shit. 1.00

00:53:35.000 Maybe he lied about that. 1.00

00:53:36.000 What's interesting, though, is he's told the same exact story since the late 80s. 1.00

00:53:42.000 And he doesn't seem full of shit. 0.99

00:53:45.000 Now, some people are really good at lying. 0.99

00:53:47.000 And, you know, I've been tricked before, and I'm sure you have, too. 0.98

00:53:50.000 There's some people that are just sociopaths.

00:53:52.000 They're really good at Yeah, they don't even like know they're lying.

00:53:55.000 They're like convinced in their own head while they're spinning it.

00:53:58.000 He's obviously though, he's obviously very intelligent and he obviously knows a lot about science.

00:54:03.000 He knows a lot about propulsion systems and he really did work at Los Alamos, which is interesting because he's actually on the employee roster and they tried to say that he didn't.

00:54:14.000 He knew people that were there.

00:54:16.000 He knew the layout of the building.

00:54:17.000 When he went there with George Knapp, they went through the building.

00:54:20.000 He knew exactly where everything was.

00:54:22.000 And he knew the people that worked there.

00:54:23.000 So he really did work there, apparently, allegedly.

00:54:27.000 His story, what's interesting to me is that, again, it's the same story over and over and over again.

00:54:34.000 And then what's also interesting to me is that he knew and took friends to a place where they were testing these things out.

00:54:42.000 And he knew where it was, and he knew when they were doing it, and he brought his friends out there, and that's when they got arrested.

00:54:50.000 Yeah, it's a very...

00:54:52.000 I think there's some consistency there.

00:54:55.000 That is hard to explain.

00:54:56.000 How would he know where to go and what was going on?

00:55:00.000 There are some possible answers to that.

00:55:01.000 I've poked into this a bit.

00:55:03.000 Supposedly, there was a bar off base where the scientists and a lot of the aviators and people would go and hang out.

00:55:10.000 He frequented that place and picked up information.

00:55:14.000 So, you know, I hear stories on both sides of this.

00:55:19.000 I don't know what the ground truth is, and I remain skeptical, but hey, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on.

00:55:28.000 I enjoyed his company.

00:55:29.000 I went to dinner with him and Jeremy, and I talked to him for several hours on the podcast and off the podcast.

00:55:38.000 I don't know.

00:55:40.000 But it's a weird one, because he never made any money doing that.

00:55:44.000 He never made any money telling that story.

00:55:46.000 I'll tell you another story offline.

00:55:47.000 We can exchange stories offline.

00:55:49.000 I'm excited.

00:55:50.000 I can't wait for this to be over now.

00:55:52.000 What other stories are compelling?

00:55:53.000 We talked about Travis Walton, who is...

00:55:55.000 I got a Travis Walton bobblehead, ladies and gentlemen, from Travis himself.

00:55:59.000 And Travis is the man whom the movie Fire in the Sky...

00:56:05.000 Was created about his event that happened in Arizona, correct?

00:56:11.000 Correct.

00:56:11.000 When he was working for a logging company and encountered an object and went missing for several days and came back with this fantastic story of being abducted by aliens.

00:56:23.000 Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting him once with two of my boys and listened to his story and read the book and so forth.

00:56:34.000 It seems credible.

00:56:36.000 As incredible as it is, he was missing for those five days.

00:56:40.000 No one's ever found any explanation of where he was.

00:56:44.000 There was a full manhunt going on.

00:56:46.000 There were like six or seven other guys who saw the UFOs, saw this beam strike him.

00:56:52.000 He's told the same story for years.

00:56:57.000 I asked him a couple of questions and he gave quick, rapid answers.

00:57:02.000 Of course, he's been telling this story for a long time, but he didn't sound like someone who had to pause and What am I going to say with this?

00:57:09.000 It seemed very natural talking about it.

00:57:13.000 According to that story, as you know, he woke up on an examination table, Lashed out.

00:57:19.000 These beings were examining him.

00:57:21.000 He runs into the hallway, runs into another room, and these very Nordic-looking individuals come in and settle him down and escort him out and so forth.

00:57:32.000 And days later, he wakes up next to a road hundreds of miles from where he was last seen.

00:57:41.000 What do you do with a story like that?

00:57:43.000 It's so hard to independently confirm anything.

00:57:46.000 There's nothing that contradicts his story that we have.

00:57:51.000 But it's not possible to confirm it.

00:57:53.000 So it goes into a category of which there are a great many wild, incredible stories like that that really make you scratch your head.

00:58:05.000 There are some where there's a little more evidence.

00:58:08.000 There's the Cash-Lundrum case here in Texas, for example, where...

00:58:12.000 A family was severely irradiated.

00:58:15.000 They saw a UFO blocking the road, stopped, got out of the car.

00:58:20.000 It fried some of the paint.

00:58:21.000 They ended up in the hospital.

00:58:23.000 Serious radiation poisoning.

00:58:25.000 Sued the Defense Department thinking it must be some DoD project.

00:58:29.000 DoD swarping down it wasn't theirs and they lost the case.

00:58:35.000 What year was this?

00:58:37.000 70s or 80s.

00:58:38.000 I'm not sure.

00:58:39.000 It's Cash Lundrum.

00:58:41.000 You can find it on Wiki.

00:58:43.000 It's public knowledge.

00:58:45.000 Was there any images of their car?

00:58:48.000 Excuse me?

00:58:48.000 Was there images of their car when the paint got fried?

00:58:51.000 I believe so.

00:58:52.000 I'll look at that.

00:58:53.000 I'm not aware of that one.

00:58:55.000 I hadn't heard that one before.

00:58:56.000 Yeah, that's, you know, there are a number of cases actually like that where people are visibly affected and physically ill and have, you know, red marks on their skin and very ill.

00:59:12.000 And they're not well known those cases.

00:59:15.000 I see this.

00:59:16.000 Not a car.

00:59:16.000 This is the burn on their hands?

00:59:18.000 Yeah.

00:59:19.000 Hmm.

00:59:22.000 When I say fried, I mean I heard the paint was damaged.

00:59:27.000 I don't know if there's...

00:59:28.000 And this was where in Texas?

00:59:30.000 This was Dayton, Texas, near Dayton, Texas, which is a couple or three hours west of here.

00:59:39.000 Huh.

00:59:40.000 Three live in pain and terror after attack by a blazing UFO. Is that from the Enquirer?

00:59:47.000 Oh, they lost their hair.

00:59:49.000 Yeah, typical radiation effect.

00:59:52.000 Very strange.

00:59:53.000 Very strange, and very well documented.

00:59:56.000 The doctors, the medical reports are all there.

00:59:59.000 Nobody has a good explanation for it, and there are other cases like that.

01:00:04.000 There are actually quite a few.

01:00:06.000 Strange stuff.

01:00:06.000 A lot of them are when people are driving, right?

01:00:09.000 There are many cases of driving, and often the car is cut out, engine stops, yeah.

01:00:16.000 One of my favorite ones is Betty and Barney Hill.

01:00:19.000 And there's a woman named Angela Hill who's a top UFC fighter.

01:00:22.000 And her grandfather is Barney Hill.

01:00:25.000 And I didn't even know until after I was done talking to her.

01:00:29.000 Then she explained it to me.

01:00:31.000 I was like, what?

01:00:32.000 So I'm like, alright, next time we do a podcast, you gotta tell me about your grandpa.

01:00:37.000 I saw Mrs. Hill one time on an old TV show called Truth or Lies or something like that.

01:00:43.000 And they would put people on a polygraph test.

01:00:46.000 On the show, they'd bring them out, interview them, tell your story.

01:00:49.000 Then they did a polygraph right there and gave the result to the audience.

01:00:54.000 And Mrs. Hill came out and passed it with flying colors. 1.00

01:00:57.000 She stuck to her story about the whole adduction, passed the lie detector test, and I think she'd taken them before.

01:01:03.000 The other problem I have with that is hypnotic regression.

01:01:07.000 Hypnotic regression is very odd, right?

01:01:09.000 Because you can sort of suggest memories to people.

01:01:14.000 I don't know what the hypnotic regression was like.

01:01:19.000 There's a problem with suggesting things to people in various states of vulnerability that those things become false memories.

01:01:28.000 It's really common.

01:01:29.000 You know as well as I do, the human memory is this incredibly flawed thing.

01:01:35.000 And so if you're in a state like hypnosis and someone starts suggesting to you that perhaps you were involved in some incredible experience and so was your husband and this is what he saw and did you see something similar?

01:01:50.000 I don't know.

01:01:50.000 I'm just guessing.

01:01:51.000 I just have a problem with hypnotic regression.

01:01:54.000 You're right to have those concerns.

01:01:56.000 I think most cases of alleged abductions that rely on that, you can't really assign any credibility to it.

01:02:04.000 What was interesting about the Hill case was that they had an individual who was trained and did not believe in this phenomenon, was not trying to lead them to that outcome.

01:02:17.000 He was a military guy.

01:02:19.000 And it was before this was a thing.

01:02:21.000 Yes, that's what's interesting about it.

01:02:23.000 It's the first one of those.

01:02:25.000 Yeah, so that had more credibility.

01:02:26.000 Since that time, I think there have been real problems, serious problems, with a lot of the hypnotic regression cases.

01:02:34.000 What's your take on John Mack?

01:02:36.000 Well, that, you know, is a case in point.

01:02:39.000 I mean, I've heard questions about that.

01:02:43.000 Interestingly...

01:02:43.000 Please explain who John Mack was.

01:02:45.000 Sure.

01:02:45.000 Dr. Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist and faculty member, and he began studying people who thought they'd been abducted and became persuaded eventually that this was really happening to them in some cases.

01:02:58.000 Not all cases, but in some cases, he believed they really were having these experiences, or at least they sincerely thought they were.

01:03:05.000 I'm not sure he necessarily went to the point publicly of saying, yeah, I think aliens are coming down and scarfing them up, but I think these people are telling the truth as they understand it.

01:03:15.000 And you mentioned the case, the aerial case, in the former Rhodesian Zimbabwe.

01:03:22.000 He traveled there, interviewed the kids.

01:03:24.000 You can see this in the documentary, The Phenomenon.

01:03:28.000 There's good coverage of that.

01:03:30.000 You can see Dr. Mack in the movie and get a sense of him as a person.

01:03:34.000 He seems gentle and kind and thoughtful.

01:03:38.000 But I have heard a lot of questions have been raised about his hypnotic regression technique, which is what he mostly relied on.

01:03:47.000 Yeah.

01:03:48.000 Yeah, that's, I've heard the same.

01:03:50.000 The problem is when someone becomes a believer, right?

01:03:53.000 And then confirmation bias.

01:03:54.000 They're looking for something.

01:03:55.000 So easy to do.

01:03:56.000 Yeah.

01:03:56.000 So easy to do.

01:03:57.000 And it's one of those subjects, it's so, for whatever reason, it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe.

01:04:03.000 I don't think there's another subject on earth other than maybe possibly religion that hits that part of the brain like the alien abduction or UFO phenomenon does.

01:04:13.000 Well, I think it is like religion.

01:04:15.000 I think it is a desire to connect to something greater, bigger, to the beyond, infinitude, immortality.

01:04:25.000 I think it relates to all those things.

01:04:26.000 And there's an innate desire people have, and that is going to influence a lot of the reporting.

01:04:33.000 Yeah, I think you're 100% right.

01:04:34.000 And it's unfortunate that we don't have like a lockdown, rock solid lie detector test.

01:04:43.000 Or you could give it to someone and go, how much do you really remember?

01:04:47.000 Like, tell me what you remember.

01:04:49.000 Let me see inside your brain.

01:04:50.000 Yeah, I think we're pretty close to that, actually.

01:04:53.000 Do you?

01:04:53.000 Yeah.

01:04:53.000 I think there are some tests now that they're not being used for that purpose, but the government's done a lot of research, and I think there are things right now where they can see, kind of understand what you're thinking as you're thinking it, and observe how the brain acts when people are lying versus when they're not lying,

01:05:09.000 but I've seen some write-ups on some of this.

01:05:11.000 Write-ups?

01:05:11.000 You're hiding stuff, bro.

01:05:13.000 You know things.

01:05:14.000 Can you tell, Jamie?

01:05:14.000 There's some pretty sophisticated stuff out there.

01:05:15.000 I can tell.

01:05:16.000 You started laughing, too.

01:05:18.000 Come on.

01:05:18.000 You're deep in the government.

01:05:19.000 You know.

01:05:20.000 I hope so.

01:05:21.000 I hope they do have something like that.

01:05:23.000 But how would that do with false memories, though?

01:05:26.000 Because they can plant memories into people's heads.

01:05:30.000 That's right.

01:05:31.000 So they might see the brain reacting as though it were either lying or telling the truth, but you'd have to probably be further down the path than we are today to know whether that could be a recalled memory, whether that's all you're observing, maybe an implanted memory.

01:05:47.000 Yeah.

01:05:48.000 Memory's just so shaky.

01:05:50.000 And when it comes to something that's so extraordinary, like seeing a UFO, I mean, I've never seen a flying saucer or an alien.

01:05:58.000 But I could imagine if I did, I would probably be so overcome with fear and excitement and emotions.

01:06:07.000 Your brain is short-circuited.

01:06:09.000 I can only imagine trying to decipher that and then if I had to sit here and explain it to you and be completely honest about my experience, boy, I don't know if I could.

01:06:21.000 I don't know what I would get out of that, how much juice I would squeeze out of that.

01:06:26.000 I've never seen a UFO myself.

01:06:29.000 The closest thing I've had to something that might be that shocking and terrifying was being charged by a grizzly bear. 1.00

01:06:38.000 Oh, shit! 0.99

01:06:38.000 And I went into, you know, sort of a dissociated state, I think. 0.99

01:06:43.000 You know, everything kind of slows down and you're sort of thinking in the back, is this really happening or am I in a dream?

01:06:51.000 You know, your mind goes to a different place when that happens, right?

01:06:55.000 And all the adrenaline turns on and, you know, your body automatically does a whole bunch of things to protect you.

01:07:01.000 And I would imagine that happens to these people when they see something.

01:07:06.000 What happened to you?

01:07:07.000 We were hiking in Wyoming, my wife and I, and she was ahead of me on the trail.

01:07:13.000 And all of a sudden, and I was trying to make noise once in a while, and I was hiking with the bear spray in my hand because I was taking that threat very seriously.

01:07:22.000 And all of a sudden there was this spine-tingling roar. 0.99

01:07:25.000 I mean, I'm coming to kill you right now. 1.00

01:07:28.000 You are so fucking dead. 1.00

01:07:31.000 Oh, no. 1.00

01:07:32.000 I've never heard anything like it.

01:07:34.000 I wish we had it on a recording somewhere because it's not like what I've ever seen in a video or heard anywhere else.

01:07:41.000 The epitome of ferocity, you know?

01:07:43.000 And so this thing starts charging up at us.

01:07:47.000 We're up on a trail, on a hiking trail.

01:07:50.000 And I just slip off the safety and start getting as much spray out there as I can.

01:07:55.000 And it comes up on the trail and stops and looks at us.

01:07:58.000 And he puts his head down, like he's gauging us.

01:08:02.000 And I'm just standing there, putting the spray out.

01:08:05.000 With the sensitivity they have, I'm sure he was, you know, getting that.

01:08:09.000 Although he was about 30 feet away, kind of at that point.

01:08:12.000 30 feet away?

01:08:13.000 Yeah, he was right there.

01:08:15.000 I think if it had been a female bear with cubs, I'm not sure that would have worked.

01:08:19.000 But in this case, after seeing that we weren't attacking him, I guess, you know, when you surprise a grizzly, they have this adrenaline gate that opens and they're full on.

01:08:29.000 They just go nuclear immediately, not like a black bear.

01:08:32.000 Right.

01:08:33.000 And that's what happened here.

01:08:36.000 But there was enough time lapse, I think, between the startle and when he got up on the trail and was getting the pepper spray and saw us that he then walked, turned around and went up the trail the other way.

01:08:48.000 But yeah, your mind does unusual things when you get in circumstances like that.

01:08:55.000 What did your mind do?

01:08:56.000 Well, like I said, it was kind of a dissociated state, I think.

01:08:59.000 I felt almost like I was in a dream state.

01:09:04.000 And part of me was questioning, is this a dream?

01:09:08.000 Because this was kind of a nightmare situation.

01:09:11.000 It's like the ultimate worst thing I ever want to have happen.

01:09:14.000 My wife and I get chewed up by a grizzly bear.

01:09:17.000 And so I was thinking, you know, is this like almost pinching myself literally, you know, because I was questioning, could this really be happening?

01:09:27.000 And yet you're on autopilot, and you're just kind of doing what you need to do.

01:09:32.000 So in this case, it was getting the pepper spray up, taking the safety off, and just putting as much of that between us and the bear as I could, and not running.

01:09:41.000 I think years later I was talking to a game guy in Africa, and he said, I told him my story.

01:09:48.000 He had a lot of better stories than mine.

01:09:50.000 But he said, well, you know, mate, why you lived?

01:09:52.000 And I said, no, why?

01:09:53.000 And he said, because you didn't run.

01:09:56.000 And for whatever reason, we followed the training and just held our ground.

01:10:01.000 Whoo! 0.78

01:10:02.000 Calm under pressure, sir.

01:10:04.000 Good job.

01:10:05.000 Well, like I said, it was a dissociated state.

01:10:06.000 I don't know if it was so much calmed as scared into doing the right thing.

01:10:11.000 Well, the fact that you were able to get the safety off and then pump the spray out there, that's calm.

01:10:16.000 A lot of people just freeze up in those encounters, don't they?

01:10:20.000 Probably.

01:10:21.000 I don't know that much about it.

01:10:22.000 I think the mistake some people make is they have it in their backpack.

01:10:25.000 It's like with all their gear.

01:10:27.000 Oh, where did I put that thing?

01:10:28.000 You know, and it's a little bit too late to be rummaging around through your backpack at that point.

01:10:44.000 Yeah.

01:10:57.000 They're so big because they get so much protein.

01:11:01.000 They get so much fish.

01:11:02.000 It's an 11-foot bear just charging them and knocked them over.

01:11:07.000 One of their friends actually wound up on top of the bear's back as it was running down the hill for a brief amount of time.

01:11:15.000 So for a second or so, it was actually literally riding this bear's back.

01:11:20.000 and these guys all got out of it okay they all got out of it alive the thing ran off and it huffed it didn't i don't think it understood how many people were there it was a large crew filming a television show and so as it ran off uh it went into the woods for a second then it was barking at them from the woods they all had guns but they didn't have the guns ready they were eating lunch at the time i'm surprised they didn't have their guns ready because i've been hunting up there For caribou and mountain goat and other things.

01:11:46.000 And when you do have one of those kills, when you go back to it, everybody knows that bears like to move in on those.

01:11:51.000 And, you know, they'll just sleep next to it, just wake up, roll over, and start munching again. 0.97

01:11:56.000 They even found bear shit as they were walking back. 0.99

01:11:59.000 They found a pile of bear shit near the carcass. 0.99

01:12:02.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:12:03.000 Some people hunt bears by doing that.

01:12:05.000 They'll go to a carcass or shoot something, leave it out there, and they just keep visiting the carcass.

01:12:09.000 So I'm surprised they were caught off guard that way, but thank goodness everybody came out.

01:12:15.000 A famous wildlife photographer was actually killed very recently in Montana.

01:12:19.000 See if you can find this, Jamie, because this guy has an amazing Instagram page.

01:12:23.000 And on his last post, which was just a few days before he was killed, he had a really cool photo of a grizzly bear, and he said he managed to get, because he had apparently been fly fishing, and he managed to get that close to the bear because he had smelled like he'd been catching trout all day.

01:12:45.000 So the bear actually got close to him.

01:12:47.000 And apparently what had happened was he inadvertently stumbled upon a bear that had killed a moose.

01:12:53.000 And the bear was protecting the moose.

01:12:55.000 And I guess he was just trying to get a photograph of it or something.

01:12:58.000 The bear mauled him and just tore him apart.

01:13:01.000 And I think he died on the way to the hospital.

01:13:04.000 I think he had a stroke.

01:13:06.000 These grizzly bears are terrifying.

01:13:09.000 They're totally unlike our black bears in the east.

01:13:11.000 Our black bears are slow to anger, slow to move.

01:13:16.000 They're Relatively gentle and out west the grizzly bears eat the black bears.

01:13:21.000 They'll treat a black bear and take him down. 0.93

01:13:24.000 They are absolutely terrifying if you're in that kind of situation.

01:13:29.000 I mean they're so powerful, so fast, faster than a horse in a sprint as you probably know.

01:13:35.000 We're just bananas.

01:13:36.000 Yeah, this is why I had the pepper spray in my hand.

01:13:41.000 I was so concerned about that possibility.

01:13:44.000 As unlikely as it seemed, I was terrified of that.

01:13:47.000 It's almost like worth carrying a large rifle.

01:13:49.000 Yeah.

01:13:50.000 If I ever went back to grizzly country, it wouldn't be with just pepper spray.

01:13:55.000 Yeah, like a semi-auto 300 wind mag or something.

01:13:58.000 Something heavy.

01:13:59.000 But what if the wind had been blown the wrong way?

01:14:01.000 Right, exactly.

01:14:02.000 Well, my friend John, John Rivett, he actually runs a hunting camp in Alberta.

01:14:08.000 And he's blown pepper spray from a tree stand at a grizzly bear.

01:14:14.000 And he said the bear just walked right through like it was nothing because he was angry.

01:14:18.000 You know, this is funny because some of the pepper spray, a little bit of it got on me and more got on my wife because she was just in front of me between me and the bear.

01:14:28.000 And it took like 60 seconds before you started to feel, there was a lag after you got the pepper spray on you between when it started to burn and then it would get more intense.

01:14:38.000 Oh, that's not good.

01:14:39.000 Yeah, that's not what you want.

01:14:40.000 So I'm thinking if that's doing that to me and I don't have fur and I'm not a grizzly, you know, what's it doing to him?

01:14:45.000 But yeah, that's a little concerning too.

01:14:48.000 Did you find the wildlife photographer, Montana?

01:14:51.000 I found the story.

01:14:52.000 I could not find his Instagram page.

01:14:54.000 What's his name?

01:14:56.000 Carl Mock.

01:14:57.000 And you can't find Carl Mock, wildlife photographer, Instagram?

01:15:00.000 Nope.

01:15:01.000 Well, there's that horrifying story of the bear whisperer guy who got killed with his girlfriend, and he had his...

01:15:09.000 Audio running, his tape recorder running while the bear killed him and ate him.

01:15:14.000 Yeah.

01:15:14.000 And then killed his girlfriend.

01:15:16.000 Yeah.

01:15:16.000 I mean...

01:15:17.000 That's Werner Herzog's documentary, Grizzly Man.

01:15:20.000 Have you watched the documentary?

01:15:21.000 I haven't watched it.

01:15:22.000 You should.

01:15:23.000 You'll have a different opinion once you watch the documentary.

01:15:26.000 You're like...

01:15:27.000 Huh.

01:15:28.000 It kind of seems like suicide by bear.

01:15:30.000 Yeah.

01:15:30.000 He was doing crazy stuff.

01:15:32.000 It wasn't just crazy.

01:15:33.000 He was doing what you're never supposed to do.

01:15:36.000 He was also there past the time when the bears were supposed to be hibernating, so the only bears that are outside of hibernation are really desperate for protein, desperate for fat.

01:15:46.000 They'll eat anything, and they decide, I think I'm going to meet this dude.

01:15:50.000 And he was annoying.

01:15:51.000 He would get close to the bear, hey, Mr. Chocolate, The film is hilarious, unfortunately.

01:16:02.000 It's one of the most unintentionally funny movies you'll ever see.

01:16:06.000 Because the guy...

01:16:08.000 First of all, the man really loved bears.

01:16:12.000 There's no doubt about that.

01:16:13.000 And had a deep respect for them and all those things are true.

01:16:16.000 But also, he's like a comical kind of a guy. 0.70

01:16:21.000 He would go up to their poop and go, this was just inside of her. 0.89

01:16:24.000 Oh my goodness.

01:16:25.000 It's still warm.

01:16:27.000 This is amazing.

01:16:28.000 I love you.

01:16:29.000 I love you.

01:16:29.000 And the bears, they're just trying to live.

01:16:32.000 They don't give a fuck about you. 0.99

01:16:33.000 They don't love you back. 1.00

01:16:34.000 They have these dead eyes, these shark eyes.

01:16:39.000 They're just reacting to stuff.

01:16:41.000 They are predators.

01:16:44.000 They're wild, dangerous wild animals.

01:16:46.000 They are not your friend.

01:16:48.000 They are not your buddy.

01:16:49.000 I don't care who you are.

01:16:50.000 It's cool that they're around.

01:16:52.000 I mean, it really is.

01:16:53.000 It's an amazing thing.

01:16:55.000 Grizzly bears, any bear, they're amazing.

01:16:57.000 But, you know, be careful.

01:17:00.000 Absolutely right.

01:17:01.000 There's a lot of horrifying stories.

01:17:03.000 Every year this happens to people.

01:17:04.000 It's not an occasional thing.

01:17:06.000 It's 10 or 15 or 20 people every year.

01:17:08.000 Yeah, a couple weeks ago, a guy got chewed up in Yellowstone.

01:17:12.000 A guy got his head chewed up by a sow.

01:17:15.000 And I think that guy lived, fortunately.

01:17:17.000 But he got mangled.

01:17:19.000 You know, it's just...

01:17:20.000 They're so fast and so powerful.

01:17:22.000 My friend John saw one kill a moose through a scope.

01:17:27.000 He was looking through a...

01:17:28.000 And he saw this bear chase the moose and swat it on the back.

01:17:33.000 And he said it literally broke the moose's back.

01:17:37.000 I can believe that.

01:17:38.000 Just imagine that.

01:17:40.000 I've seen video of a female grizzly whose cub got swept away in the current and washed down in front of a big male who is Fishing for salmon.

01:17:51.000 And the males swiped at the cub, and sometimes the males will kill the cubs and eat them.

01:17:56.000 And the mother went after him, and it was much like what we experienced when we were hiking.

01:18:05.000 You know, it was just nuclear.

01:18:07.000 She was all out.

01:18:08.000 He was bigger than her.

01:18:09.000 She didn't care.

01:18:10.000 She attacked him with everything she had, drove him across the stream, chased him up a hill, and, you know, it happened just like that.

01:18:18.000 Life.

01:18:18.000 Yeah.

01:18:20.000 It's overpowering.

01:18:23.000 When you're in that circumstance, you better have a way out or a gun or something.

01:18:30.000 I think human beings have such a distorted idea of our place in the food chain.

01:18:36.000 I really do.

01:18:39.000 We live in houses, and we drive in cars, and we fly in planes, and we have guns, and we can go to the zoo and see a bear.

01:18:47.000 But when you're out in the woods, and there's no rules, and they're acting on the laws of nature, I just don't think most people have any idea what that life is like.

01:18:56.000 Their life is just ruthless and short.

01:19:00.000 It lasts for like, you know, if they're lucky, they get 14, 15 years out of it, and by the time they're dead, all their bones are fucked up, and their face is torn apart by other bears, and they kill things with their face for a living. 0.97

01:19:13.000 That's what they do. 0.60

01:19:14.000 And that's one of the things that terrifies people about this UAP issue.

01:19:19.000 We're top of the food chain.

01:19:21.000 We're the alpha.

01:19:22.000 We don't have to worry about that.

01:19:24.000 We're in control of our fate.

01:19:26.000 And then like, oh my gosh, well maybe we're not.

01:19:28.000 Why did they change it from UFO to unidentified aerial phenomena?

01:19:31.000 The stigma.

01:19:32.000 Trying to get away from that loaded term.

01:19:35.000 Part of the problem with that term is that People don't hear the unidentified part.

01:19:40.000 They think automatically you mean alien spaceship.

01:19:42.000 They say, do you believe in UFOs?

01:19:44.000 Well, yeah, I believe people see things they don't identify they can't identify.

01:19:47.000 But that's not what people are thinking.

01:19:49.000 That's not what they think they're asking you.

01:19:51.000 So people wanted a term that was a little more neutral.

01:19:54.000 Is the worst case scenario that they are beings from another planet or another dimension or is the worst case scenario that these are things that China has developed or Russia has developed and they're so far technically superior to us that we can't even imagine? 0.80

01:20:13.000 That's interesting because both situations in a worst case could lead to a similar outcome.

01:20:19.000 The Chinese are employing AI and information technology In a truly Orwellian fashion, they are creating a state in which they can monitor what virtually every conversation, 0.99

01:20:35.000 people's movement, people's employment, their location, they've got facial recognition detectors, they've got every cell phone, it's got like a patriotic scorecard on it which they can download at a checkpoint.

01:20:50.000 And as they continue to perfect that and implement that, you get a vision of It seems very alien of where you extrapolate that out 20 years.

01:20:59.000 You've got absolute power and control at the top like a dysfunctional Hollywood sci-fi movie.

01:21:06.000 So it's conceivably almost as bad as the worst case scenario of aliens coming in.

01:21:13.000 I don't know what should be worse.

01:21:14.000 When you think about space and this infinite ocean and the shores it washes up on and the things that are in the shadows out there, You know, there's no end to where your imagination can go.

01:21:27.000 So it's hard to compare.

01:21:30.000 But I don't think either of those would necessarily be a happy scenario.

01:21:35.000 Well, I would think that best case scenario would be aliens.

01:21:40.000 Because we would hope that aliens would be more enlightened than us.

01:21:44.000 We know Chinese are not. 1.00

01:21:47.000 They're just humans.

01:21:48.000 You know, we know that Chinese people are no different than the Russians or than the Chechnyans or the United States people.

01:21:57.000 They're just human beings, right?

01:21:59.000 Human beings are incredibly flawed and we're territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons.

01:22:04.000 That's what we are.

01:22:05.000 We would hope that these things from another planet are far more advanced in us technologically and hopefully far more advanced than us spiritually, the way they communicate.

01:22:19.000 Maybe they're not warlike at all, which is why there's been no stories about them attacking and killing people or blowing up bases or doing anything crazy when they've been Chased by jets.

01:22:30.000 They seem to be completely benign in that respect.

01:22:35.000 So I think the best case scenario at this stage would be that they're aliens. 0.79

01:22:43.000 Does that make sense?

01:22:44.000 Yeah, it does make sense.

01:22:45.000 And I think that would be the hope.

01:22:47.000 And furthermore, that they would impart a lot of this information to us and technology in ways.

01:22:54.000 Would they though?

01:22:54.000 I don't know.

01:22:55.000 I don't think they would.

01:22:56.000 Best case scenario would be that they are benign like that and they want to help us.

01:23:00.000 Yeah.

01:23:00.000 And so that's, you know, that's what we'd all like to believe.

01:23:04.000 The help us part, maybe, but show us the technology, but we're still us.

01:23:08.000 The problem is we're still us. 0.92

01:23:10.000 We're still ridiculous. 0.90

01:23:11.000 The human animal in just, in general, amazing, beautiful, incredible creations, wonderful creativity, but also frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack. 0.81

01:23:24.000 I would hope that these beings that can travel across the galaxy would be far past all that stuff.

01:23:30.000 That's best case scenario.

01:23:32.000 Because if it is Russia, or if it is China, You know, they're gonna be like, look, I'm a proud American, and I would like to think that the way we behave and the way we have governed in terms of the way we've used our superpower,

01:23:50.000 although not perfect, has been better than if it was Communist China that was in the CCP that was in the same position.

01:23:58.000 I would think that we've done a far better job.

01:24:01.000 I would think that we're certainly not as draconian in the way we treat our citizens.

01:24:07.000 We certainly don't do things to our citizens in this current age the way they did to the Uyghur Muslims. 1.00

01:24:12.000 There's a lot of things that I like about the United States. 0.93

01:24:16.000 But if the United States had the kind of power where they could just travel through the galaxy and they could just show up outside of nuclear bases in China and do whatever the fuck they wanted and just disappear into the ocean and we were the only ones that had it, that would disturb the shit out of the rest of the world, right? 0.62

01:24:31.000 Even though we are the preeminent superpower.

01:24:34.000 Even though we are, you know, we're the number one military power on Earth right now, currently, for the time being, right?

01:24:41.000 I wouldn't want us to have that kind of advantage over the rest of the world.

01:24:45.000 But if anybody did, I'd want it to be us.

01:24:47.000 But I definitely don't want it to be China, right? 1.00

01:24:49.000 Absolutely not.

01:24:50.000 That would be the worst.

01:24:51.000 That would be worst case scenario.

01:24:53.000 We monitor the Chinese and Russians very closely, very carefully.

01:24:57.000 We spend, I think the unclassified figure is about 70 billion per year on the intelligence program.

01:25:03.000 I think?

01:25:05.000 It would be very surprising and stunning if they had independently developed technology that was that far ahead of everything else and everyone else somehow secretly.

01:25:19.000 So it doesn't seem likely and we don't think that's the case.

01:25:25.000 So more likely ultra-terrestrial or extraterrestrial.

01:25:29.000 This is the conundrum.

01:25:31.000 We don't see any evidence that it's the Russians or Chinese.

01:25:35.000 Or anyone else.

01:25:36.000 And they don't have any reason to believe that they have technology that can perform in that manner.

01:25:41.000 So, you know, this is the problem.

01:25:44.000 Where does that drive you?

01:25:45.000 Right.

01:25:45.000 Where does that drive you?

01:25:47.000 What about the possibility of the things that Bob Lazar did talk about?

01:25:51.000 Whether you believe Bob Lazar or not, the thing Bob Lazar talked about that's fascinating.

01:25:57.000 Was this possibility that we have obtained some extraterrestrial craft and that we are in the process of trying to back-engineer it.

01:26:07.000 Yeah, that's a really ticklish question for me and awkward.

01:26:13.000 If I were to say, yep, it's true, nobody would believe me.

01:26:16.000 If I really knew, I couldn't say yes.

01:26:21.000 And yet, so it's hard to give good answers to that question.

01:26:28.000 I think it's plausible.

01:26:29.000 I don't think that people should roll that out.

01:26:34.000 It's a legitimate question to ask.

01:26:35.000 There's enough...

01:26:38.000 Information to suggest something like that may have happened.

01:26:41.000 We may have recovered some debris.

01:26:43.000 What information?

01:26:44.000 Well, there's some books about Roswell.

01:26:47.000 There's some other cases like that where people have come forward and said, I was in the military and I was at this, you know, retrieval where I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it and blah blah blah.

01:27:02.000 There are some, in fact, there's some investigation going on right now on a new case.

01:27:08.000 So it's not an off-the-wall question.

01:27:12.000 It's a legitimate question.

01:27:13.000 I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that...

01:27:17.000 It would be so deeply squirreled away that you wouldn't be able to bring in the best scientists.

01:27:23.000 You wouldn't be able to bring in world-class scientists.

01:27:27.000 You would have available maybe a few people inside some aerospace company, and they'd probably be very hamstrung in their ability to test and examine the material and so forth.

01:27:38.000 And, you know, it'd just be locked away somewhere.

01:27:40.000 That's the argument for Bob Lazar, because Bob Lazar, at least on paper, is not a top scientist.

01:27:46.000 He was a guy that had not the best credentials in terms of his education, but was clearly a very intelligent guy who was fascinated with propulsion systems, put a jet engine in the back of his car.

01:27:59.000 He was kind of a wacky, super genius dude.

01:28:01.000 He was just a little off.

01:28:03.000 And when you think about his description of how they ran the program, it's even more in line with what you would do with something that was incredibly top secret, whereas everything's compartmentalized.

01:28:14.000 The metallurgy people didn't talk to the propulsion people.

01:28:16.000 The propulsion people didn't talk to whoever else was on the project.

01:28:23.000 I'm not saying that there's no reason to believe we might have some recovered debris.

01:28:28.000 I'm skeptical about some of his claims.

01:28:32.000 Multiple full crafts, right? 0.53

01:28:34.000 Didn't he say there were like nine of them?

01:28:35.000 Yeah, and different models and things.

01:28:38.000 Some of the things he said don't sound like the government that I know.

01:28:42.000 Like what?

01:28:42.000 Like 21 levels of security clearance above top secret or something.

01:28:48.000 There's no security system like that that I've ever heard of.

01:28:52.000 So there are things like that that don't make sense for somebody who's been an insider.

01:28:58.000 Is it possible that there might be something like that when it gets to a program that's as bizarre as back engineering extraterrestrial vehicles that they might put in place additional levels of top secret clearance?

01:29:14.000 Especially when you're talking about compartmentalizing all these different aspects of the project?

01:29:19.000 That's not really the way it works.

01:29:20.000 The way it works is that they could make a special exception in this case.

01:29:25.000 And DOE has something sort of like this.

01:29:27.000 They have an alphabetical system with tiers of more classified stuff.

01:29:32.000 DOE is?

01:29:33.000 Department of Energy.

01:29:34.000 Okay.

01:29:35.000 So, you know, in the classified world, you've got the intelligence community and it has its own procedures and so forth.

01:29:42.000 Then you've got Defense Department black programs, which are a different world.

01:29:46.000 And there's a little bit of overlap in a Venn diagram sense.

01:29:49.000 And then you've got Department of Energy, which has billions of dollars in black programs, tens of billions, and very little oversight.

01:29:57.000 So they have a system and a different clearance, which is a result of the Atomic Energy Act, not an executive order, which establishes the classification for the rest of the government.

01:30:10.000 So some things like that's not impossible.

01:30:12.000 It could happen.

01:30:15.000 Now, the Roswell story is a fascinating one because there was an uptick in UFO sightings, or at least reported sightings, that came after World War II. And the idea is, amongst the UFO cognoscenti,

01:30:32.000 Is that they were aware that we had detonated nuclear weapons and that we had blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 0.99

01:30:40.000 And they're like, okay, these crazy fucks are taking us to a new place. 0.99

01:30:45.000 Let's zoom in and see what's going on down there. 0.99

01:30:49.000 And then they started visiting us.

01:30:51.000 Yeah, I mean, that's the story.

01:30:55.000 That's plausible to me.

01:30:56.000 I mean, if there are aliens here, why are they here?

01:30:59.000 What are they doing, right?

01:31:00.000 And when you look at the behavior of the objects that we're seeing, it's consistent with the possibility that maybe somebody has an interest in something here they want to protect.

01:31:12.000 And if we were to have a nuclear war, it might compromise that interest.

01:31:15.000 So maybe they have a stake in some resource here or some capability or genetics or just whatever.

01:31:24.000 Maybe it's an experiment and Petri dish somebody started a long time ago.

01:31:29.000 They want their experiment to run to its conclusion.

01:31:31.000 I mean...

01:31:31.000 That's an interesting perspective.

01:31:33.000 There's so many possibilities when you start going down that path.

01:31:36.000 I think...

01:31:40.000 Probes that are, you know, artificial intelligence probes that have the capability perhaps to manufacture or print robots or beings or maybe even genetically create something when it arrives at a destination.

01:31:57.000 It is conceivable, right?

01:31:59.000 They could travel through space for hundreds of years or thousands of years, arrive at a destination, consuming very little energy in the hallway, all of a sudden, boom, and they create on board some beings that can operate things and perform tasks that are short live for that purpose.

01:32:18.000 Monitor, interact, collect, report.

01:32:20.000 There's all kinds of possibilities that are within the bounds of science.

01:32:27.000 Yeah, the imagination runs wild, right?

01:32:28.000 It does, yeah.

01:32:29.000 And when you think about what's happening currently with human civilization, if you take it from the advent of the nuclear bomb to where we are today with this weird situation with Russia and China and just even almost like a civil war, which is potentially possible in the United States as well,

01:32:47.000 like we're in this weird volatile stage of our development as a civilization.

01:32:53.000 Maybe that's a feature of evolution.

01:32:56.000 Maybe when biological creatures go from being a thing that lives tooth and claw like a grizzly bear to eventually developing shelter and then eventually developing some semblance of civilization to eventually developing advanced civilization and space travel and all this other stuff.

01:33:15.000 Maybe along the way there's this real Possibility of fucking the whole project up and that it happens all throughout the universe and maybe they've observed this maybe this is a stage of development that we are being given training wheels and Maybe a little bit of a helping hand by our extraterrestrial Brethren who are okay.

01:33:36.000 They're there.

01:33:37.000 They're right there. 1.00

01:33:37.000 They're at that nuclear part Let's uh, let's keep an eye on these fuckers. 1.00

01:33:41.000 That would be a nice benign view I'd love that and it's possible that Even by acknowledging this phenomenon, if we got to the point down the road where our government said, wow, there really is something from off-planet coming here, it might help to resolve some of these differences and disputes between different countries, 0.98

01:34:02.000 might compel us to collaborate more, to see ourselves more as one species, one people, and not Chinese versus Russians versus Americans.

01:34:13.000 It would certainly stimulate a lot of technology, much as the space program did after they saw the Sputnik.

01:34:23.000 And people got afraid of the Russians in space, and they're ahead of us. 0.86

01:34:27.000 And it actually led to cooperation.

01:34:29.000 It led to progress in technology, a lot of good things.

01:34:33.000 So I think there's a possibility that this could go in a very positive direction.

01:34:37.000 That's what I would like to think.

01:34:41.000 Now, Roswell as a case is really interesting, right?

01:34:46.000 Because there's a lot of witnesses.

01:34:47.000 There's a lot of people that claim to have seen things and the stories all kind of mesh together from Jesse Marcel to all the different people that claim to have seen bodies and different people that saw caskets to the person who worked at the Mortuary who was contacted,

01:35:06.000 the funeral home that was contacted by the military and told to make small caskets. 0.95

01:35:11.000 There was all this weird shit that goes together. 0.99

01:35:15.000 Now, whenever you have a story like that that becomes a legend, for sure there's some fuckery involved, right? 0.99

01:35:21.000 There's got to be some shenanigans.

01:35:22.000 Well, we know the Air Force lied initially.

01:35:25.000 They've now admitted they lied.

01:35:28.000 Let's explain that.

01:35:31.000 Congressman Schiff of Arizona took up the case decades after the fact and asked the General Accounting Office to investigate.

01:35:42.000 And they confronted the Air Force and did a lot of research and the Air Force story that these were weather balloons crumbled.

01:35:49.000 And the Air Force did a deep inquiry of its own and produced a big book saying, I forget what the title was, but essentially they were saying it was actually a classified experiment that was designed to detect nuclear explosions in the Soviet Union.

01:36:07.000 So they admitted that their first story was a lie, and their news story was, well, it really was balloons, but they weren't weather balloons.

01:36:15.000 They were part of a top-secret experiment.

01:36:18.000 Right.

01:36:18.000 So they've changed their story once, and, you know, is that now the true story, or is it actually, you know, something else?

01:36:26.000 Right, and why would they change their story?

01:36:27.000 Why did they change it?

01:36:30.000 Why tell the public, like, what benefit could be gained from telling the public that the initial 1947 story was a lie?

01:36:39.000 Well, I think they were trying to explain some of the discrepancies and hopefully this would put it to bed.

01:36:44.000 Maybe it's just the truth.

01:36:47.000 You know, I don't know what the motive was behind it.

01:36:51.000 If you're skeptical, you would say it's a cover story.

01:36:54.000 They're trying to cover their tracks.

01:36:55.000 That's where I'm at.

01:36:57.000 I'm skeptical.

01:36:58.000 Yeah, I don't blame you.

01:36:59.000 We know they lied about it the first time.

01:37:01.000 Well, the first, the report, I don't know where the report came from, but it was reported in the Roswell Daily Record, right?

01:37:07.000 That they had recovered a crashed flying saucer.

01:37:10.000 Oh, it was actually reported more widely than that.

01:37:12.000 I think it was like announced over the radio and across the country.

01:37:16.000 And then the next day they said it was a weather balloon.

01:37:19.000 Was that when Jesse Marcel says he was told to bring in this false debris and say that this aluminum foil and all this crap was from a weather balloon?

01:37:34.000 That's right.

01:37:35.000 And I will tell you, I've never said this before, but I've been told by multiple people who have credentials and access that there is some truth to these stories.

01:37:51.000 So I don't discount this when people say this.

01:37:54.000 I've had people tell me, you know, people that have substantial, you know, scientific or military credentials that they believe is true.

01:38:06.000 So I encourage people on the Hill to pursue it.

01:38:10.000 You know, they've got a task force going right now looking into this.

01:38:15.000 Trying to understand what's happening in these restricted military areas.

01:38:18.000 If you're opening that up, you know, ask all the tough questions.

01:38:22.000 Ask about the military bases and the nuclear weapons.

01:38:25.000 Ask whether there's anything buried somewhere, whether there's materials that we have.

01:38:32.000 It's been a long time.

01:38:33.000 I think the people can handle it, the public.

01:38:35.000 It's their government.

01:38:36.000 It's their money.

01:38:38.000 I say go for it.

01:38:39.000 You know, let's find out the truth.

01:38:41.000 Get to the bottom line.

01:38:42.000 Where do you think that stuff could be?

01:38:45.000 If they did really recover?

01:38:47.000 We have a number of candidate places.

01:38:51.000 There's Area 51, there's Wright-Patt, there's Edwards.

01:38:54.000 There's a whole lot of places, depending on what you were doing with it.

01:38:57.000 If you wanted to just squirrel it away, there's some facilities not too far from here in the Southwest that are, you know, you dispose nuclear waste and other things.

01:39:07.000 So there's a lot of possibilities.

01:39:10.000 But wouldn't you, like, who's got the key?

01:39:14.000 And who, you know, and that person's dead, right?

01:39:17.000 So we're talking about several generations.

01:39:19.000 Like, how do you get the golden key?

01:39:21.000 Here we got people from 1947 that were in the military and they're adults.

01:39:25.000 Most likely dead now, right?

01:39:29.000 Yep.

01:39:29.000 Yeah, we're talking 70 years later.

01:39:31.000 Not too many World War II vets around.

01:39:33.000 Yeah.

01:39:34.000 So how does that torch get passed?

01:39:39.000 And do they trot out new scientists occasionally when they've sufficiently compromised them on Epstein's Island?

01:39:47.000 We have an amazingly dense, complex security apparatus.

01:39:52.000 Some people say, oh, you can't keep stuff secret in a long time.

01:39:55.000 That's not true at all.

01:39:56.000 We keep lots of stuff secret for decades.

01:40:00.000 And there are reporters in D.C. that think they've got the inside track and they know most of the secret stuff.

01:40:06.000 People who think that are clueless.

01:40:09.000 They really have no idea.

01:40:11.000 Yeah, I think it's pretty delusional to think the government can't keep secrets like a crashed UFO. It's pretty delusional.

01:40:18.000 Well, the F-117 and the B-2 bomber, you know, when they rolled the F-117 out, it was already operational up at Tonopah.

01:40:26.000 And it was a mission-ready unit.

01:40:28.000 They were flying.

01:40:30.000 And people were shocked all around the world.

01:40:33.000 People had no idea.

01:40:34.000 So this thing had been built.

01:40:36.000 There were tens of thousands of people involved in the production, the design, the deployment.

01:40:40.000 And, you know, there are many smaller things that would be much easier to conceal for a long time.

01:40:47.000 What gets compromised and leaked is usually, like, foreign policy stuff.

01:40:50.000 And a policymaker can see that he can use his advantage in a debate over, you know, should we bomb a round or something, and they'll leak that.

01:40:59.000 But weapons program stuff almost never leaks.

01:41:02.000 Why do you think that is?

01:41:04.000 It doesn't have press value.

01:41:06.000 It's often very technical.

01:41:08.000 There's no...

01:41:09.000 Advantage.

01:41:10.000 And also, almost nobody knows about it.

01:41:11.000 The policymakers don't know about that stuff.

01:41:13.000 So they're recipients of intelligence products and reporting.

01:41:18.000 But even when I was in the government...

01:41:21.000 People in the National Security Council and, at that time, the Director of Central Intelligence, they didn't have access to the black programs at DOD. There was a case where I had a request from the National Security Council for access to some programs, and I took it back to the building,

01:41:37.000 and they said, no.

01:41:38.000 That's the President's own staff.

01:41:41.000 If the President wants it, we'll tell, or maybe the National Security Advisor or something, but...

01:41:46.000 Was this Bush or Obama?

01:41:51.000 This was Clinton, I believe.

01:41:54.000 Oh.

01:41:56.000 Because I think the staffer was a guy named Richard Clark, famous counter-terrorist advisor on the NSC staff, who was carried over.

01:42:05.000 So at that point, possibly it was Bush.

01:42:08.000 And Clinton was trying to find out some information about UFOs, correct?

01:42:14.000 I've heard that.

01:42:15.000 Publicly, he talked about it on a talk show, I believe.

01:42:18.000 Yes, he has said that.

01:42:20.000 I have no inside knowledge of what he has done or who he's asked, but I've heard that he did ask one of his confidants to dive into this.

01:42:29.000 Yeah, I wonder how much they tell the president.

01:42:32.000 Because, like, you think, well, the president has access to all the information, and then you look at Trump, and you go, maybe not.

01:42:40.000 They don't have access to anything close to all the information, and They don't need it and they don't want it.

01:42:46.000 You know, most of the secret stuff is not sexy or interesting or particularly, you know...

01:42:52.000 Isn't that a flaw, though, in our system?

01:42:54.000 I mean, if that's really legitimately the commander-in-chief. 0.99

01:42:57.000 That's the commander-in-chief of the greatest army the world's ever known, but you can't know a lot of shit. 0.91

01:43:02.000 It's not that he can't, and he can get briefed on anything he wants, but he could spend the first six months doing nothing but looking at secret programs and getting briefed on them. 0.92

01:43:13.000 And it's just not worth his time to be getting briefed on, yeah, this is how we made the battle armor on the tank better.

01:43:18.000 But let me ask you this.

01:43:20.000 If you were the president, wouldn't that be the first thing you would ask?

01:43:26.000 There is some stuff that I would immediately...

01:43:28.000 What would you do?

01:43:29.000 Yeah, I would...

01:43:30.000 Good question.

01:43:32.000 So I'd want to know the Department of Energy.

01:43:35.000 I'd want to know all their special programs is one thing.

01:43:38.000 I'd want to have a sit-down with the Director of Operations at CIA. I'd want to talk to...

01:43:45.000 I'd want to review the waived special access programs, Section 119 of Title X, that most of Congress is exempted from reporting to.

01:43:54.000 It's a very high category of DOD programs.

01:43:58.000 There's some things like that.

01:43:59.000 There's a briefing the president gets, of course, shortly after being elected that covers a lot of the, you know, strategic nuclear warfare, some of the key top secret things that he really needs to know, has to know, should know.

01:44:14.000 And then, you know, there's a category of things that are like, should we tell them or not?

01:44:20.000 There's too much stuff, obviously, to convey, so they've got to pick and choose.

01:44:23.000 Some things are no-brainers, other things are judgment calls.

01:44:26.000 What do you think the DOE could be working on?

01:44:31.000 Well, in some cases, a lot of what they're doing is good stuff.

01:44:35.000 They're trying to secure the weapons stockpile, and they're trying to make sure that now that we're not testing anymore, will these things still function as they were designed?

01:44:43.000 And they can do incredible computer modeling.

01:44:46.000 And that kind of thing.

01:44:47.000 But, you know, DOE's got its hands in a lot of different areas in terms of power and production and other kinds of things.

01:44:54.000 And I'd be very interested to know, they don't seem to get much oversight, unlike the Defense Department and the Intelligence Community.

01:45:02.000 They have a lot of oversight from Capitol Hill, for example.

01:45:07.000 DOE, I don't think, necessarily disclosed its black programs to its oversight committee, the Energy and Public Works Committee.

01:45:14.000 I don't know how that works over there.

01:45:16.000 I'm not sure they get the same...

01:45:18.000 I don't think they get the same level of review.

01:45:20.000 How are they incentivized to innovate?

01:45:25.000 Well, they've got to...

01:45:26.000 Being, you know, as they operate kind of in secrecy.

01:45:29.000 Yeah, a lot of what they do is not all the R&D is in secret.

01:45:33.000 They're doing a lot of good stuff related to energy and power and solar power and stuff that's public, open source.

01:45:41.000 It's really mostly nuclear weapons related stuff that is secret, that is really, really close hold.

01:45:48.000 But that can cover a lot of grounds.

01:45:50.000 There's been a lot of innovation.

01:45:51.000 That's an example where, no, the public doesn't know, shouldn't know.

01:45:55.000 We wouldn't want that information to be released, a lot of the details of that.

01:46:00.000 It wouldn't be in our interest, the public's interest.

01:46:02.000 And there's a lot of stuff going on there.

01:46:04.000 And it was, for me, the one...

01:46:07.000 Sort of pie that I didn't have a lot of deep access to.

01:46:11.000 I had some access to those programs, but I had a much more prolonged and intimate relationship with the defense and intelligence community.

01:46:22.000 Now, if you became president and you wanted to find out more information about UAPs or UFOs or whatever you want to call them, how would you go about doing that?

01:46:31.000 That's an interesting question, too.

01:46:32.000 Where would you start?

01:46:34.000 Yeah, because it's so convoluted, these things.

01:46:38.000 I would start at the agency.

01:46:42.000 And the Air Force.

01:46:45.000 That's where you're most likely to find these things.

01:46:49.000 If there's a program like that, that's most likely where it is.

01:46:53.000 And how would you even get to the right person?

01:46:57.000 Because the number of people that have all the information has to be pretty small.

01:47:02.000 So you'd have to be really careful about who you have lunch with.

01:47:05.000 Yeah.

01:47:06.000 When you worked in the field a long time, you get some ideas of where to go and who to talk to.

01:47:09.000 You think you got an idea of who to go and who to talk to?

01:47:11.000 Yeah, I have some ideas.

01:47:13.000 Yeah?

01:47:13.000 Yeah.

01:47:15.000 I know where a lot of the budgets are.

01:47:17.000 Imagine walking around with that information, though.

01:47:19.000 Imagine being a guy who's walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert, there's a UFO that definitely came from another planet.

01:47:29.000 It's being guarded 24-7.

01:47:31.000 And if the public saw it, it would shatter their belief in reality.

01:47:35.000 Yeah, crazy.

01:47:36.000 I'll tell you a story that you can judge how it compares, but this is something that happened to me in real life that was crazy.

01:47:43.000 So I was one of the handful of people who was told there's a nuclear weapon in New York.

01:47:49.000 It's going to go off in the next few days, we think, and there's another unlocated.

01:47:54.000 We think it's heading to D.C., which is where I was living with my family.

01:47:59.000 So I'm walking around for days, you know, running to people in the street, my neighbors, how you doing?

01:48:04.000 You know, get the hell out of here.

01:48:05.000 And you're not supposed, you can't tell anybody anything.

01:48:08.000 I had my family quietly, you know, relocate, but turned out the source, thankfully, was wrong.

01:48:15.000 But it was one of those kind of situations where...

01:48:19.000 You're aware of something or the possibility of something that is going to just freak people the hell out if they found out about it for good reason.

01:48:29.000 It was a very surreal experience.

01:48:32.000 Jesus.

01:48:33.000 Yeah, that always begs the question, like if you knew that something was going to happen that was going to destroy the country, what do you do?

01:48:41.000 You can't even tell anybody.

01:48:42.000 Like, what's the point?

01:48:42.000 Like if an asteroid's coming here, it's going to land smack down the middle of Chicago.

01:48:48.000 Well, see, that was an interesting case there, right?

01:48:50.000 Because they didn't warn New Yorkers to evacuate.

01:48:52.000 Why didn't they do that?

01:48:53.000 Because they didn't want to panic?

01:48:54.000 I think they made a decision that...

01:48:57.000 The panic would be awful and there'd be casualties and they didn't have certainty that it was there.

01:49:03.000 But that would be a terrible policy decision to have to make.

01:49:07.000 Do we tell people to evacuate or not?

01:49:09.000 If you tell people to evacuate, there's probably going to be incredible panic and all kinds of, not only just disruption, but people are going to get hurt and probably some people are going to die in a panic like that.

01:49:21.000 What do you do if a UFO's coming?

01:49:23.000 Like, what do you do if they spotted something, they've got some sort of satellite image of some mothership that's 15 football fields long, and it's headed our way?

01:49:33.000 Do you even bother telling anybody?

01:49:35.000 Do you let it just show up?

01:49:37.000 There's no protocol for that that I know of.

01:49:39.000 I would think you would want to try to establish communications.

01:49:42.000 I think if we actually got to the point of saying, yeah, we're monitoring these things now.

01:49:48.000 We're seeing where they're coming into orbit.

01:49:50.000 We're seeing where they're dropping down from orbit.

01:49:52.000 And we're seeing this pattern.

01:49:54.000 These are ships.

01:49:54.000 They are craft.

01:49:55.000 They're vehicles.

01:49:56.000 They're intelligently controlled.

01:49:57.000 What do you do about it?

01:49:59.000 One of the things you might want to do is try to establish some kind of communication.

01:50:03.000 Yeah.

01:50:06.000 I'm sure you're aware of the astronomy professor from Harvard, the chief of astronomy, Dr. Avi Loeb, and his assessment of that object that went through our solar system, that he believes it's extraterrestrial in origin,

01:50:21.000 that it's 91% a disk.

01:50:24.000 91% possibility that it's some sort of a disk, that it's 10 times more reflective than any other object like it that we've ever spotted in the solar system, and that it's moving far too fast away from the sun for it to be something that it's not affected the way we would expect it to be by the sun's gravity.

01:50:45.000 It seems to indicate that it's something of extraterrestrial origin.

01:50:49.000 What'd you think of that?

01:50:51.000 It's interesting.

01:50:52.000 I have read that since then an alternative has been identified that many scientists think clears this up that explains those anomalies.

01:51:01.000 He identified a number of anomalies.

01:51:04.000 One of the things I found interesting though about it is here's an object, maybe discarded, maybe it's just an artifact, a solar sail that somebody didn't need anymore and it fell into orbit around our Sun.

01:51:18.000 If it was some kind of a craft, as some people theorized, think about how inefficient that is compared to a probe in our atmosphere, compared to these things that we're seeing routinely.

01:51:32.000 This thing passed, you know, it may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to get here, and would you want to design and build something that after traveling for hundreds of thousands of years, it spends a few days at a Great distance from interesting planets and just kind of whizzes by and then it's gone.

01:51:48.000 Well, isn't it possible that this is one, like, look at what we're doing on Mars, right?

01:51:52.000 We have this drone that's buzzing around on Mars and the rover.

01:51:57.000 Isn't it possible that this is like an early stage intergalactic spaceship that's now just filled with skeletons?

01:52:05.000 It's possible.

01:52:07.000 What I think is interesting, though, is we have this very persuasive and compelling evidence of intelligently controlled vehicles in our atmosphere that are actually maneuvering, which this thing was not.

01:52:22.000 And are behaving in ways that you might expect a probe from somewhere else to behave, including the fact that it's doing radical things we don't understand that seem like magic.

01:52:35.000 So if you apply that logic to, say, the Nimitz case, I think it's even stronger.

01:52:40.000 I think it's harder to explain the Nimitz case than it is Umana-Mana.

01:52:44.000 Yeah.

01:52:45.000 A Mono Mono, though, what my take on it is like, you know, you could go to someone's barn and find a Model T. Or you could drive down the road and see a Tesla. 0.92

01:52:56.000 You know, there are various stages of technological evolution.

01:53:00.000 Just because we have these amazing things like that tic-tac that are somehow or another here and operating, it doesn't mean it's something else.

01:53:08.000 I mean, if we're right about the amount of Goldilocks planets that are out there and we're right about the infinite scope of the universe, It's possible there's a shitload of civilizations.

01:53:19.000 We can't compare their technology.

01:53:21.000 It's almost like comparing the technology of human beings on the same planet to people that live on, like, North Sentinel Island, right?

01:53:27.000 The people that are isolated, the small band of human beings that live in this uncontacted tribe.

01:53:34.000 Oh, yeah, on the Andaman Sea.

01:53:36.000 Yeah, so compare them to people who live in, you know, Los Angeles. 0.85

01:53:41.000 It's kind of silly, right?

01:53:42.000 He makes a compelling case for that.

01:53:45.000 It is bizarre, the shape of it and the luminosity and so forth.

01:53:52.000 NASA has now and Congress has agreed that they should begin looking for things like that, technosignatures, evidence of alien technology.

01:54:01.000 And this is another one of these ironies that NASA has said and Congress said, yeah, that's entirely possible.

01:54:07.000 You should go look at that stuff.

01:54:08.000 But, oh my God, if it's in our atmosphere, if it's that close, no, that's crazy.

01:54:16.000 Even though it's happening, our military is encountering these things and we're getting movies of them and radar tracks.

01:54:24.000 It's very difficult to get anybody to take that seriously, to get interested and get involved.

01:54:28.000 Even when they look at video.

01:54:30.000 There's a weird video, I don't even know if it's legit, but it's a weird video of a thing in our upper atmosphere.

01:54:36.000 It's moving and then it takes a very hard angle turn away.

01:54:40.000 Have you seen that thing before?

01:54:41.000 I'm not sure which one.

01:54:42.000 There's so many out there and that's a common Kind of occurrence, these right angle turns, you know?

01:54:49.000 Yeah.

01:54:49.000 That's the thing.

01:54:50.000 It's like, it's almost impossible.

01:54:55.000 It's impossible.

01:54:56.000 Like, there's nothing we have that can move like that.

01:54:58.000 No way.

01:54:59.000 Not at high speed.

01:55:00.000 Yeah.

01:55:01.000 Yeah.

01:55:02.000 You'd have to imagine it's either faked, like some faked footage that shows these things, because for sure there's a lot of fake stuff.

01:55:08.000 You know, there was that one guy from, was it Denmark?

01:55:12.000 Where was that guy?

01:55:13.000 There was one guy from another country that made a lot of fake UFO footage.

01:55:17.000 Oh, probably the Swiss guy. 0.76

01:55:19.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:55:20.000 He's kind of hilarious.

01:55:21.000 Yeah, there's a number of these fabricators, and of course they've polluted the whole space.

01:55:25.000 I know some guys that are trying to create an AI capability that'll screen all these videos.

01:55:31.000 For signs of manipulation and being hoaxed, etc., so you can have a better sense of confidence in the ones that get through that process.

01:55:40.000 Because there's so many out there, and some of them could be really interesting, but you have no way of knowing what credibility to attach to them, generally.

01:55:48.000 Are there any ones from other countries that you find credible, like videos, footage?

01:55:53.000 Wasn't there some images or video that was taken over Mexico City?

01:55:58.000 Wasn't there something...

01:55:59.000 There is an interesting one for the Mexican military.

01:56:02.000 I don't know much detail about that.

01:56:04.000 I've seen it.

01:56:05.000 There have been a lot of sightings in Mexico and in South America.

01:56:09.000 There was a sighting off the coast of Chile, which I think they found an explanation for.

01:56:15.000 It was apparently a drug plane that was exuding a lot of its fuel, probably because it was trying to disguise its location or I don't know, change directions or something.

01:56:28.000 It looked very weird when you saw the original video.

01:56:31.000 I think that was explained.

01:56:34.000 The Brazilians have tons of video.

01:56:37.000 I haven't seen much of it.

01:56:39.000 I know that they've collected a great deal of information.

01:56:42.000 They've had some incidents like we did in 52 where the capital of the U.S. was being overflown.

01:56:49.000 They called it the Night of the UFOs and they had like 23 different UFOs being seen and multiple fighter jets in the air.

01:56:57.000 This was going on all over the country, front page news.

01:57:01.000 So, there is some other video evidence out there for sure.

01:57:04.000 There's some video that we haven't released that we have, that I've seen.

01:57:07.000 What have you seen?

01:57:09.000 One of them, I've seen a few of them, and until the Defense Department releases it, I can't say too much about it, even though it's not classified, but they haven't released it yet.

01:57:22.000 But I will say there are some more videos like the ones that have been released that they've authenticated.

01:57:28.000 Do you believe that the Defense Department is going to eventually release this video that you've seen?

01:57:32.000 I hope so.

01:57:34.000 I don't see why they shouldn't.

01:57:36.000 They've only...

01:57:37.000 National security has only been benefiting from this, right?

01:57:40.000 This was a problem that was being ignored, a very real problem.

01:57:44.000 A problem that should concern everybody.

01:57:46.000 How many Americans would believe that we've got craft violating our airspace routinely in military airspace?

01:57:55.000 I mean, most of us tend to think that, you know, we're America.

01:57:58.000 We're the alpha.

01:57:59.000 We're the top dog.

01:58:00.000 Our airspace is secure.

01:58:02.000 We got it locked down.

01:58:03.000 No way anybody's going to come sneaking in here.

01:58:05.000 Well, to find out this is going on, not like occasionally, but routinely.

01:58:10.000 Yeah.

01:58:11.000 Even around military facilities and bases.

01:58:14.000 That's shocking.

01:58:16.000 It's not good.

01:58:17.000 And, you know, it's hard to get traction, though, when that story appeared in the New York Times.

01:58:22.000 I was stunned to learn that almost nobody in Congress asked for a briefing.

01:58:27.000 Really?

01:58:28.000 Yeah.

01:58:28.000 Here's this front page story with videos.

01:58:30.000 You can see the UFO for yourself.

01:58:32.000 You can hear the pilots.

01:58:33.000 And they're clearly amazed at what they're looking at.

01:58:37.000 They have no idea what it is.

01:58:39.000 And you'd think the oversight committees would go, what the hell is going on here?

01:58:43.000 I want a briefing on that.

01:58:44.000 Jamie, find the Go Fast video and play that because that's the best one to hear the pilots reaction because they're watching this thing shoot across the surface of the ocean.

01:58:57.000 That was released in the Washington Post a few months after the other two that were in the New York Times.

01:59:03.000 But it's a good video and it's been authenticated by the Defense Department.

01:59:09.000 It looks like a tic-tac.

01:59:11.000 Yeah, but it's moving at a much more reasonable rate of speed.

01:59:15.000 Much more reasonable.

01:59:16.000 What did they estimate the speed at?

01:59:18.000 You know, I've seen different estimates, and there's one debunker who's made a strong case that it's going like 130 miles an hour.

01:59:26.000 Tyrell could be right, but he claims it's a balloon.

01:59:32.000 Is that Mick West?

01:59:33.000 Yeah.

01:59:33.000 Yeah, Mick West debunks everything.

01:59:35.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:59:36.000 That motherfucker doesn't believe shit. 1.00

01:59:38.000 His debunkings are more elaborate than alien theories. 1.00

01:59:42.000 He's got civilian airliners on their sides without transponders and restricted airspace with three other things happening at the same time. 0.92

01:59:49.000 His take on the TikTok is pretty silly.

01:59:53.000 He hasn't taken into account all the evidence. 0.82

01:59:56.000 He has no regard for military personnel and their experience with these sensors and these aircraft and what they're seeing and reporting.

02:00:05.000 He just discounts these people.

02:00:07.000 He's never been in one of these planes.

02:00:08.000 He's never operated these sensors.

02:00:10.000 And he just dismisses these people.

02:00:12.000 And that bothers me. 0.75

02:00:14.000 Yeah, he's an odd duck.

02:00:16.000 Nice guy, though.

02:00:17.000 You got it?

02:00:20.000 Let's see.

02:00:21.000 Yeah, that's it.

02:00:24.000 That's the gimbal.

02:00:25.000 No, that's the gimbal.

02:00:27.000 I was trying to find the other one.

02:00:28.000 The GoFast one, it just...

02:00:30.000 Did you just Google GoFast?

02:00:31.000 100%.

02:00:32.000 Yeah.

02:00:33.000 Just GoFast. 0.84

02:00:34.000 Is it all in the same video, maybe?

02:00:36.000 Maybe.

02:00:37.000 Could be.

02:00:38.000 Yep, that's it.

02:00:40.000 That's it.

02:00:41.000 Yep.

02:00:41.000 I got it!

02:00:44.000 Woohoo! 1.00

02:00:45.000 Roger, there's a shooting shooting.

02:00:49.000 No, I took an auto track.

02:00:53.000 Oh, okay.

02:00:55.000 Oh my gosh, dude.

02:00:57.000 Wow!

02:00:57.000 Look at that!

02:00:58.000 Look at that! 0.99

02:01:03.000 So that is them trying to figure out what the fuck that is. 0.97

02:01:06.000 And by the way, this is a segment of a longer video. 0.98

02:01:10.000 I've suggested to some of my friends on the Hill that they ask the department to release the rest of the video.

02:01:16.000 Why not?

02:01:17.000 I mean, they've acknowledged that this is for real.

02:01:21.000 And they've also acknowledged that there was no compromise.

02:01:23.000 It wasn't classified.

02:01:25.000 So, why not release the rest of it?

02:01:27.000 And that might help us resolve some of these ambiguities, because if that makes a right-angle turn, that's not a balloon, obviously.

02:01:33.000 Right.

02:01:33.000 Well, the way that thing's moving, to think that's a balloon seems pretty silly.

02:01:37.000 It's like it's on railroad tracks.

02:01:38.000 I mean, it's just like...

02:01:39.000 It's flying.

02:01:40.000 Yeah, and it's really true.

02:01:41.000 It's straight.

02:01:42.000 It's not wobbling or being buffeted by the wind.

02:01:45.000 No. 0.93

02:01:45.000 That would have to be the most fucking insane wind of all time, like a tunnel wind. 0.93

02:01:51.000 But just the fact that it looks like it's not wiggling at all, it's moving through some method of propulsion that can't be determined because it's not giving off a heat signature.

02:02:01.000 And, I mean, to say it's only 150 miles an hour, like, maybe.

02:02:05.000 But why would that freak out pilots who go way faster than that?

02:02:10.000 I mean, they can go supersonic, and they're watching this thing, and they're freaking out and laughing.

02:02:14.000 Like, look at that thing go.

02:02:15.000 Like...

02:02:17.000 They're weirded out by it, obviously.

02:02:19.000 And they're probably being vectored to it by somebody.

02:02:22.000 It sounds to me like they've been looking for it and somebody's been saying, hey, it's down here, go to this place and you'll find it.

02:02:27.000 And then these guys finally get on it and somebody gets a lock on it.

02:02:30.000 And you can hear that amazement in their voice.

02:02:32.000 So there's a lot more information about that incident than these others, which is in the public domain.

02:02:37.000 I've been urging the Defense Department to put more of that out there and suggesting to the committees they might want to They asked the department to do that.

02:02:47.000 They don't see any reason not to.

02:02:48.000 An informed public is in our best interest.

02:02:50.000 It's in our best national security interest.

02:02:53.000 And yet the overwhelming default value in the Pentagon is, you know, don't talk about anything, don't share anything.

02:03:04.000 Even though they can see in a case like this, until that information got out, nothing was happening.

02:03:10.000 Yeah.

02:03:10.000 And now we're finally getting some attention on a serious national security problem, which wouldn't have happened if the information hadn't gone public.

02:03:19.000 And, you know, why not make more information public if it's not classified?

02:03:24.000 There's no sources and methods issue that you're going to compromise.

02:03:27.000 You know, you're not revealing some super hidden capability that needs to be protected.

02:03:33.000 Why not put that out and help inform people?

02:03:36.000 And it's their country, it's their homes, their livelihood, their government.

02:03:41.000 And ultimately, how does Congress make decisions about how to allocate resources if they don't have the information of what's going on and what the possible threats are?

02:03:51.000 None of this information was getting to Congress.

02:03:53.000 So there was no opportunity for them even to take any action.

02:03:59.000 They were completely kept in the dark on this until 2017. That's pretty crazy.

02:04:05.000 I couldn't agree more.

02:04:08.000 What video that you've seen is the most compelling that's been released?

02:04:13.000 And have you seen anything that hasn't been released that's more compelling?

02:04:17.000 One of the ones that hasn't been released has got more emotional impact, certainly.

02:04:24.000 Can you give us a tease?

02:04:25.000 The UFO is going really close to this guy.

02:04:28.000 And he's freaking out for good reason.

02:04:32.000 But...

02:04:34.000 So that doesn't mean that the object was necessarily a super advanced craft.

02:04:39.000 He's going so fast, maybe it was actually moving slowly and hanging there, and he went by it super fast.

02:04:45.000 But his perception was that something was coming real fast at him and going right between him and another guy.

02:04:55.000 It's all unclassified stuff, but it doesn't resolve any of these issues, but it's pretty compelling.

02:05:02.000 There's something like that along those lines.

02:05:06.000 The Navy has admitted there was a near-mid-air collision.

02:05:08.000 Safety report was filed.

02:05:11.000 That's all public information.

02:05:14.000 And I think, again, it's frustrating to see this attitude of We've got to lock everything down.

02:05:22.000 We've got to classify everything right away, even if it's a guy with an iPhone.

02:05:27.000 And it's not a secret sensor or anything.

02:05:31.000 You don't have to worry about the source.

02:05:34.000 Because an informed public, more of the scientific community will get involved.

02:05:38.000 They'll bring more expertise to bear.

02:05:41.000 And people better assess this issue and whether something needs to be done about it.

02:05:46.000 Because right now, almost nothing is being done about it.

02:05:49.000 They've got a tiny task force with a few guys who are trying to collect information and write a report for the Senate.

02:05:56.000 And I think what's going to be significant about it is it's due next month.

02:06:01.000 They're not going to be able to say what Project Blue Book said, which was, there's nothing really happening here.

02:06:06.000 There's nothing of national security interest.

02:06:09.000 There's no advanced technology.

02:06:11.000 It's beyond what we have.

02:06:13.000 Blue Book said both of those things.

02:06:16.000 He said, not only is it not ET, but we don't see any mysterious technology, and we don't see any reason to be concerned from a national security standpoint.

02:06:26.000 I don't see how this report can say any of those things.

02:06:31.000 So I think when that, you know, assuming they do deliver the report and they acknowledge that this is happening, it's continuing to happen, they have other classified information that should be weighed and factored into their unclassified judgment and report that's released.

02:06:47.000 They won't give the details, but the people that write the assessment of this should have the knowledge of that.

02:06:53.000 And I think if they do a straight-up job, they're going to have to acknowledge that there are indications of technology more advanced than anything we possess, and that there is a legitimate national security issue.

02:07:07.000 So that one video that flies very close to the pilot, that's the one that you find to be the most compelling?

02:07:13.000 That has the most, I think, emotional impact on people.

02:07:16.000 I think the gimbal video, when you understand that there's a second fleet of UFOs that are maneuvering near those guys, in addition to what you're seeing there and the pilot's reaction and maneuvering, that's probably...

02:07:31.000 The most compelling.

02:07:33.000 The FLIR video that we haven't talked about much does show this instantaneous acceleration, which is another thing that we don't have.

02:07:40.000 We can't do.

02:07:41.000 We don't have anything that can sit there hovering and then just suddenly, you know.

02:07:46.000 And the FLIR video is the one of the Tic Tac, correct?

02:07:49.000 That was the Tic Tac, correct.

02:07:50.000 See if we find that.

02:07:52.000 FLIR, correct?

02:07:53.000 Correct.

02:07:53.000 What does that stand for?

02:07:54.000 Forward-looking infrared radar.

02:07:57.000 And this is, again, this is after Commander Fravor had spotted the thing?

02:08:03.000 Correct.

02:08:03.000 So there's two aviators in those F-18s.

02:08:07.000 There's a pilot and a weapon system operator behind him.

02:08:11.000 And there were two F-18s that saw the Nimitz with two people in them.

02:08:15.000 So that's four aviators all seeing the same thing in perfect conditions.

02:08:19.000 And they're toggling through different methods of viewing this thing to try to get a better perspective, a better view of it.

02:08:28.000 Yeah, and he had been following what was going on earlier in the day and wanted to go out and try to get on this thing, you know, gung-ho Navy pilot, and all of a sudden it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore.

02:08:44.000 So what we're watching, for folks who are just listening, is he's toggling also from looking at it in what looks like 1X, and then he goes and zooms in occasionally, he's going back and forth.

02:08:58.000 What is he doing here?

02:09:00.000 He's trying to get a lock on it.

02:09:03.000 And that will that will enhance his ability to track it and He's not able to do that.

02:09:10.000 He's his system is not able to get a lock so he keeps trying and then all of a sudden Yeah, that's bananas You know do we have any estimation of how fast it was going when it did that?

02:09:20.000 We do We're talking thousands of miles an hour.

02:09:25.000 The Scientific Coalition for UFO Research has a website and they did a very deep analysis, mathematical engineering guys.

02:09:36.000 On the momentums, the G-forces, the speeds, and they're all crazy.

02:09:41.000 I mean, some of the G-forces, their G-forces, if the speed estimates are right, that are probably five times greater than anything we've ever built could withstand.

02:09:53.000 I mean, it would just shred any aircraft, any missile, any rocket that we've ever built.

02:09:59.000 They're so far beyond the design tolerances and limits of systems that we make that it's crazy.

02:10:06.000 So that image or that video alone is probably to you the most compelling?

02:10:14.000 I think actually the most compelling case is the Nimitz case because you have so many witnesses and so many censors and the FLIR is part of that.

02:10:23.000 But you really have to look at the whole case.

02:10:26.000 You have to Talk to all the pilots involved, which I've done.

02:10:31.000 You have to talk to the radar operators on the Princeton.

02:10:35.000 There's also radar operators on the E2C Hawkeye, which was up there monitoring this, getting sporadic hits.

02:10:41.000 And then you have this third F-18 that goes up.

02:10:45.000 And takes that video.

02:10:46.000 So there's a lot of different information from a lot of different sources.

02:10:49.000 And the thing is, it's all perfectly congruent.

02:10:52.000 It all hangs together.

02:10:54.000 Nobody's contradicting anybody else's story.

02:10:56.000 And what people are seeing is what the sensors are reporting.

02:11:01.000 So that case overall is really the most compelling to my mind.

02:11:05.000 It's just such a strange occurrence when all those pieces align together like that too, right?

02:11:12.000 Where you have the Nimitz, you have Commander Fravor, you have the other ship and all this information about this one thing that they track on this one day and then they say they've encountered multiple ones of those over the last few weeks.

02:11:31.000 You're talking about during the Nimitz round?

02:11:33.000 Yes, they were tracking numerous objects that were moving off the coast of California and the coast of Mexico.

02:11:41.000 They were descending from probably the sort of maximum detection range of the Aegis cruiser there, which they were seeing some of these things starting to appear in their radar at like 80,000 feet.

02:11:55.000 They have a low radar cross-section, so most conventional radars couldn't even track them.

02:11:59.000 Certainly not at any kind of distance.

02:12:01.000 So, you know, you don't know how high were they...

02:12:04.000 Right.

02:12:34.000 So they have this incredible performance range.

02:12:37.000 There seems to be unlimited time on station.

02:12:40.000 They don't seem to be running out of fuel.

02:12:41.000 They seem to be able to just go all day, which of course our aircraft are not able to do, at these insane speeds and maneuver unlike anything that we know of or understand.

02:12:53.000 And no heat signature.

02:12:54.000 No heat signature, no wings, no exhaust, no air intake.

02:12:59.000 What is its means of propulsion?

02:13:01.000 Right.

02:13:02.000 If there's no air intake, there's no exhaust, there's no heat signature, and they're going supersonic without making sound.

02:13:10.000 So there's some theories about that which are not validated yet.

02:13:17.000 Attempts to explain that by manipulating spacetime in the immediate vicinity of the craft that could potentially explain how the contents could survive the g-forces because they wouldn't be subjected to them and why they wouldn't make sound as it make a shockwave as it crossed the sound barrier.

02:13:37.000 And lots of other factors associated with this phenomenon.

02:13:41.000 There are some plausible explanations consistent with science as we understand it, but it would be really exotic technology and way beyond anything that we even have on the drawing boards.

02:13:53.000 And so by saying that it manipulates space-time, is there any theory of how something like that could be constructed?

02:14:03.000 Something that could manipulate space-time?

02:14:04.000 Yes.

02:14:05.000 There's something called an Alcubierre drive.

02:14:08.000 And this is a physicist who developed a theory.

02:14:12.000 It requires insane amounts of energy to do it.

02:14:15.000 But it would enable, in theory, if you could construct something, a device that could do that, to essentially cause this object to act like it was falling.

02:14:26.000 And so the people on board, if there were people or whatever's on board, wouldn't feel those radical g-forces, and the object would slip through the atmosphere instead of, like, Penetrating through the atmosphere,

02:14:41.000 more like the atmosphere in front of it was opening up as it moved along.

02:14:47.000 Now there was a paper that I saw just a couple weeks ago that challenges that theory.

02:14:54.000 So perhaps that particular theory is no longer in good stead in the physics community, but there are some alternative theories along those lines.

02:15:05.000 And of course there's just so much we don't know.

02:15:08.000 So, what we do know is what we're observing, and that's really the key.

02:15:12.000 And that's part of the problem with this debate is we've got to start with the facts.

02:15:16.000 The theories have to be consistent with the facts.

02:15:19.000 The facts don't have to be consistent with the theories.

02:15:21.000 I mean, you know, we work in that direction.

02:15:24.000 We take the facts and we try to come up with hypotheses consistent with that.

02:15:27.000 But too many people look at this and say, well, it can't be this and it can't be that, so the facts are wrong.

02:15:34.000 You know, this is what some of the debunkers do.

02:15:36.000 They start with the premise that it couldn't possibly be any of those things, so he must have been seeing a bubble on his windshield.

02:15:44.000 And, you know, these guys were having a mass delusion, and oh, by the way, the radar operators were mistaking some weather inversion, and, you know, they just keep adding on as necessary new conditions which they have no evidence or proof of.

02:15:59.000 None of these things have been identified by anybody.

02:16:03.000 None of the debunkers have said, you know, it turned out that was United Airlines flight, blah, blah, blah.

02:16:09.000 Or it was this boat or somebody's drone.

02:16:12.000 These things all remain unidentified.

02:16:14.000 Well, whatever that is, the way it moves off like that in that video, in the FLIR video, try explaining that.

02:16:23.000 Right.

02:16:25.000 You know, Chad Underwood, I've heard him on a podcast describe that event, and I actually sent it around to some people because he debunks the debunkers.

02:16:37.000 He's got thousands of hours of cockpit time, He knows those systems, knows those aircraft.

02:16:42.000 He says, you know, that was instantaneous acceleration, no ifs, ands, or buts.

02:16:47.000 And there's no way that was any kind of conventional aircraft out there.

02:16:52.000 And when you hear the guy talking about firsthand about his experience, I find that generally with these pilots, when you sit down with them face to face, you know, they're not bullshitting you.

02:17:02.000 It's really clear they're being candid and And their emotions are honest, and they're befuddled like the rest of us.

02:17:08.000 That propulsion system, the way you described it by manipulating space-time, isn't that exactly what Bob Lazar said propels these spaceships that he was working on?

02:17:19.000 Yeah.

02:17:19.000 Don't you think that's kind of interesting?

02:17:21.000 I understand it.

02:17:22.000 It's been a long time since I've looked at his theory, but I think you're right.

02:17:25.000 I think that is what he claims the propulsion system does.

02:17:30.000 But that wasn't really a public theory in 1989, was it?

02:17:36.000 I don't know when the Alcubierre Drive theory was published.

02:17:40.000 I don't know for sure.

02:17:42.000 But there were other people speculating along those lines, I believe, at that time about propulsion systems like that.

02:17:49.000 And this idea of this element 115 being this incredibly dense but stable element that doesn't really exist in a stable form here on Earth.

02:18:01.000 That they didn't really have a real evidence of this until what was like 2013 or something along those lines?

02:18:11.000 Yeah, there was something that he did raise that issue and it wasn't until long afterward that scientists discovered that I guess that It is possible for it to be stable for some brief period of time,

02:18:27.000 which I think before they thought you just couldn't bring it together.

02:18:31.000 But it was just detected in a particle drive for the first time in the 2000s, correct?

02:18:36.000 That sounds right, yeah.

02:18:37.000 So when he talked about it in 1989, was it theoretical back then?

02:18:44.000 I think it was Purely theoretical.

02:18:48.000 I don't think anyone...

02:18:49.000 But it was discussed, theoretically, that there was an element...

02:18:52.000 I believe so.

02:18:52.000 So it was sort of like the Higgs boson...

02:18:53.000 I'm not absolutely certain about that.

02:18:55.000 It was sort of like the Higgs boson or something like that, something that they...

02:18:58.000 A theoretical particle, theoretical idea.

02:19:02.000 What about life forms?

02:19:04.000 What are your thoughts on not just drones, but alien life forms?

02:19:10.000 I mean, have you ever heard any compelling stories about some biological thing from another planet, whether it's a dead thing or a living thing, that's been observed or that's been, you know, obtained?

02:19:28.000 I've heard a lot of stories.

02:19:30.000 I bet you have.

02:19:34.000 It's so frustrating in this field because it's so hard to get to the bottom of these.

02:19:38.000 And undoubtedly, many of them are not true.

02:19:44.000 They're legends.

02:19:45.000 But there are some that come from, say, like a foreign military that...

02:19:54.000 Really make you wonder, why would they invent this and be claiming this?

02:20:00.000 Maybe it's some guy off his rocker, but there are some examples like that that do get your attention, that cause you to think maybe there's something to this.

02:20:13.000 What has been the most interesting story that you've heard?

02:20:17.000 There was...

02:20:20.000 There are a number, but one of them involved a foreign military that had several different interactions and incidents.

02:20:29.000 They had some military officers that allegedly had some contact, and a very senior officer allegedly There was a location, according to this report,

02:20:44.000 where a UFO was appearing sort of nightly.

02:20:47.000 And he went out there with some of the guys, and on the second or third night this thing, Lowenhold, did appear.

02:20:54.000 And he had some interaction with it, supposedly.

02:20:57.000 And he describes this and describes communications he received.

02:21:03.000 But there's no independent corroboration of it.

02:21:06.000 What about a body?

02:21:10.000 I've heard the rumors like everybody else.

02:21:12.000 I don't know anything about that.

02:21:16.000 I know that people claim that they've seen those things.

02:21:19.000 Nothing beyond that.

02:21:22.000 Yeah, imagine.

02:21:24.000 Come here, man.

02:21:25.000 I want to show you something.

02:21:26.000 You know the story about Nixon and Jackie Gleason?

02:21:29.000 I do, yeah.

02:21:31.000 That's a great one, isn't it?

02:21:32.000 Yeah, there are other stories like that.

02:21:35.000 Tell people the story.

02:21:36.000 Well, as I recall, you probably know it better than I do, but as I recall, Nixon confided in Gleason that, yes, indeed, we have...

02:21:45.000 Aliens, and he arranged for Jackie Gleason to actually go to a facility and see this body or something.

02:21:52.000 I think it was actually a craft.

02:21:54.000 A craft.

02:21:54.000 Okay, you know the story better than I do.

02:21:56.000 Why don't you go ahead?

02:21:57.000 And then Jackie Gleason actually built a house that was shaped like a UFO. And I think the house was for sale at one point in time.

02:22:06.000 Do you remember that house, Jamie? 0.97

02:22:08.000 We found it online, and you look at it, you go, holy shit, like he built a UFO house. 0.95

02:22:13.000 Was that in Palm West? 0.98

02:22:15.000 Palm Desert?

02:22:15.000 I do not remember.

02:22:17.000 We'll find out shortly.

02:22:18.000 But this house, at one point in time at least, was for sale and my wife would never let me buy something like this. 1.00

02:22:26.000 But if I was a single man and I was young and stupid, which I used to be, I would have bought the shit out of that fucking house. 0.99

02:22:35.000 To have Jackie Gleason's UFO house, that's it. 1.00

02:22:37.000 Oh, is that it?

02:22:38.000 Yeah.

02:22:39.000 Okay, that's not what I was thinking of.

02:22:41.000 Yeah, he built a house that looked like a UFO inside of it.

02:22:46.000 Apparently he was obsessed, and I'm obsessed with Jackie Gleason.

02:22:49.000 I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan.

02:22:51.000 Yeah.

02:22:51.000 Where was this thing?

02:22:53.000 It was in New York, I think.

02:22:54.000 Yeah.

02:22:55.000 Westchester County.

02:22:56.000 Yeah.

02:22:57.000 12 million bucks.

02:22:58.000 I think that's some comedy that still would work today.

02:23:01.000 Recently for sale.

02:23:02.000 Yeah.

02:23:03.000 12 million.

02:23:04.000 How long ago was this?

02:23:05.000 2018. No shit. 0.99

02:23:07.000 Damn. 1.00

02:23:08.000 I don't want to live in New York, but if I did... 0.99

02:23:10.000 He built that in 1959?

02:23:12.000 Is that what it said?

02:23:13.000 Mm-hmm.

02:23:13.000 59. So Nixon wasn't even president.

02:23:16.000 Look at the neighbors.

02:23:17.000 I wonder what they're thinking about that.

02:23:19.000 Maybe he added on to it.

02:23:20.000 Let me see.

02:23:21.000 Maybe.

02:23:21.000 They're horrified.

02:23:22.000 Maybe they just fucking pumped and lived near Jackie Gleason. 0.99

02:23:25.000 Well, yeah. 0.99

02:23:26.000 When he was there, I'm sure. 0.95

02:23:27.000 It was a wild ass house.

02:23:30.000 But the fact that he built a wooden house that reminded him supposedly of this UFO. I mean, who knows? 0.94

02:23:36.000 I mean, it could have been an architect who said, hey, I got an idea.

02:23:40.000 There's a story like that about Spielberg.

02:23:41.000 Have you heard that?

02:23:42.000 No.

02:23:44.000 Ronald Reagan, and it was one of his iconic alien movies, and Reagan sort of quipped to him something like, yeah, you know, it's really true, or we really have those things, or something like that.

02:23:56.000 Really?

02:23:57.000 Yeah, one of these legendary conversations.

02:24:01.000 But maybe in the circles you move in, you can find out.

02:24:05.000 I don't know, dude.

02:24:06.000 I don't know if they trust me.

02:24:07.000 Somebody bought this house in 1976 for $150,000?

02:24:11.000 Wow!

02:24:11.000 That seems crazy.

02:24:13.000 No, I don't know.

02:24:14.000 That seems crazy.

02:24:15.000 Well, what was $150,000 in 1976, though?

02:24:17.000 It was probably worth a lot of money.

02:24:18.000 $100,000, that was probably close to a million, right?

02:24:21.000 Still.

02:24:22.000 I know, still.

02:24:22.000 A house that's that dope?

02:24:24.000 That used to be Jackie Gleason's house?

02:24:26.000 Yeah.

02:24:27.000 Yeah.

02:24:29.000 Yeah, I agree.

02:24:30.000 His comedy probably would translate today.

02:24:32.000 The Honeymooners?

02:24:34.000 It's probably one of the most...

02:24:35.000 If you watch that show today, it's still very funny.

02:24:37.000 I would love for my kids to see that.

02:24:39.000 I think it would still work for them.

02:24:40.000 He's also probably the very best pool player, celebrity pool player of all time.

02:24:47.000 That's why they used him in The Hustler with Paul Newman.

02:24:51.000 He was a legitimate, like, top-flight pool player.

02:24:54.000 Yeah.

02:24:54.000 Spent a lot of time...

02:24:55.000 Brilliant guy.

02:24:56.000 Yeah.

02:24:57.000 Brilliant guy.

02:24:57.000 Interesting.

02:24:58.000 Yeah.

02:24:59.000 Just liked to get drunk.

02:25:00.000 And funny as hell.

02:25:01.000 Yeah.

02:25:01.000 And was always drunk.

02:25:02.000 Oh, is that right?

02:25:03.000 Oh, yeah.

02:25:04.000 Yeah.

02:25:04.000 It was his whole thing, man.

02:25:05.000 He loved getting hammered.

02:25:06.000 He was hammered all the time.

02:25:07.000 There's a funny video of him when he's older on a golf course, and he's got this crazy souped-up golf cart with a bar in it.

02:25:15.000 You know, he's out there golfing and drinking.

02:25:17.000 Living the big life.

02:25:18.000 Living large.

02:25:19.000 Yeah, he was a character.

02:25:21.000 Here's the story about Jack and Gleason.

02:25:22.000 Okay, there it is.

02:25:24.000 Legend has it that Nixon and Gleason drove to a heavily guarded building on Homestead Air Force Base, where the leader of the free world gave the guy who played the bus driver from Bensonhurst a private tour.

02:25:37.000 We drove to the very far end of the base in a regulated and segregated area, finally stopping near a well-guarded building, Gleason told UFO researcher and author Larry Warren, an eyewitness to the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident,

02:25:55.000 according to the book UFOs Among the Stars by Timothy Green Beckley.

02:26:00.000 The security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure.

02:26:06.000 There were a number of labs we passed through.

02:26:08.000 First, before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer, enclosed in several large cases.

02:26:18.000 Next, we went to an inner chamber, and there were six or eight of what looked like glass-topped Coke freezers.

02:26:27.000 Inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children.

02:26:32.000 Then, upon closer examination, I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old.

02:26:37.000 Most of them were terribly mangled as if they had been in an accident.

02:26:42.000 Jackie Gleason's wife Beverly Gleason told the same story to the magazine Esquire in 1974. It was passed off as a publicity story for her then-upcoming autobiography.

02:26:54.000 It talks about the house he made, which was somewhere else maybe, I don't know.

02:26:58.000 It says, Gleason's 50-foot-wide mothership house was custom-made by shipbuilders in an airplane hangar and moved to Gleason's property.

02:27:05.000 The structure has no right angles.

02:27:08.000 Van Tassel's Integratron was built in the Mojave Desert because of its proximity to the magnetic vortices and the relationship to the Great Pyramids.

02:27:22.000 Okay, you lost me there.

02:27:24.000 Getting nutty.

02:27:25.000 They always get nutty, right?

02:27:26.000 That's the thing about UFO stuff.

02:27:27.000 That's one of the problems with this issue.

02:27:28.000 It just goes off the deep end so fast.

02:27:30.000 Always, right?

02:27:31.000 Always.

02:27:31.000 I have tried to keep it on national security and kind of nuts and bolts stuff.

02:27:37.000 Stay away from the paranormal stuff.

02:27:38.000 It's hard.

02:27:39.000 It is hard.

02:27:40.000 Yeah.

02:27:40.000 It goes there fast.

02:27:42.000 Yeah.

02:27:42.000 A lot of the people that believe in...

02:27:44.000 That was one of the things that Terrence McKenna had said about UFOs.

02:27:48.000 It's not whether or not UFOs are real.

02:27:50.000 When you talk to someone and they believe in UFOs, ask them what they think about psychics.

02:27:54.000 Ask them what they think about ghosts. 1.00

02:27:57.000 You know, and then you get these, and you go, oh, you're into weird shit. 0.99

02:28:00.000 You're into things. 0.99

02:28:01.000 You're into the unknown.

02:28:03.000 Because the unknown is very compelling, and that's part of the problem.

02:28:06.000 There's, again, this part of the brain that lights up when you can find out things that we don't know to be true, whether it's Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or UFOs.

02:28:15.000 Yeah, a lot of people are drawn to this, you know, and again, it's like religion, you know, it's the mystery, it's the wonder, it's the connection to something greater.

02:28:25.000 People that are, you know, in the intelligence community, there was this remote viewing program.

02:28:30.000 Yes.

02:28:31.000 And some of those people are also people who are interested in this phenomenon and were involved in it.

02:28:35.000 What's your take on that remote viewing stuff?

02:28:38.000 Well, you know, they seem to have some individuals they claim who could perform better than chance and could do so consistently.

02:28:49.000 Some of their research has been disputed.

02:28:53.000 So, I don't have a strong feeling, but I do know that some people have had some legitimately crazy experiences.

02:29:02.000 The Skinwalker Ranch, there's some strange stuff being documented around there.

02:29:07.000 There was strange stuff documented by Bob Bigelow, before the present owner had it.

02:29:13.000 If you read the book Paranormal, you'll hear about incidents that I have discussed with some of the protagonists in that book, and it's crazy stuff.

02:29:25.000 And they will look you right in the eye at people with PhDs, and they'll say, yeah, This guy came in the room and we said, what are you doing in here?

02:29:34.000 Because it's a classified, you know, facility.

02:29:38.000 And the guy, big guy with one arm missing in a hook or something.

02:29:44.000 And he wheels, turns around, goes out.

02:29:47.000 The guy who's telling the story runs up and grabs the door and opens it.

02:29:51.000 There's nobody in the hallway.

02:29:53.000 This figure looks exactly like supposedly the figure that someone had seen over their bed the night before DOE with this, you know, one-armed guy spinning around.

02:30:05.000 And, you know, you say, well, this is insane.

02:30:07.000 This is nuts.

02:30:07.000 And these are all like sober DOE people who are telling stories like this and other scientists.

02:30:14.000 So it's really crazy.

02:30:18.000 It's wild.

02:30:19.000 It's curious.

02:30:19.000 It's intriguing.

02:30:21.000 Some of these people have advanced degrees and they tell far out stories about some of this stuff.

02:30:28.000 What about tangible things like metallurgy?

02:30:31.000 Like what about samples of metal?

02:30:34.000 Like samples of various types of metals and combinations of metals?

02:30:42.000 Yeah, now we're getting back to physical science where we can get grounded and test something.

02:30:45.000 Yeah, the one-armed spinning guy, so I'm like, check please.

02:30:48.000 Yeah, that's right.

02:30:49.000 I understand.

02:30:50.000 I get it.

02:30:51.000 I felt the same way.

02:30:51.000 But actually, it's funny you should mention that because there's a private researcher who you've had on the show, Dr. Jacques Vallée, who has some materials, and I think he is on the verge of, you know, he's going through the peer review process.

02:31:06.000 And treating it like you would any other scientific issue.

02:31:10.000 And I think he's going to be publishing in a peer-reviewed journal some interesting data before too long.

02:31:15.000 I think he's been working on that for a long time.

02:31:18.000 So there are some examples like that that are serious and credible.

02:31:23.000 And some of the materials seem to have properties that Are difficult to explain that suggest that maybe they were engineered not at the molecular level, but at the atomic level, which would be extremely difficult and expensive to try to replicate.

02:31:42.000 He was saying that some of these samples, if you were to recreate them with the technology available today, it would cost billions of dollars.

02:31:50.000 Which is insane.

02:31:51.000 Exactly.

02:31:52.000 So, you know, obviously nobody was doing that here.

02:31:55.000 So where did it come from?

02:31:57.000 There's also a discussion that the isotopic ratios of these materials in some cases are sufficiently statistically different from what is found in nature in our solar system that it suggests they were born in a different sun,

02:32:15.000 a different All the heavier elements are created in these solar explosions and supernovae that cram and fuse these protons and neutrons and electrons together and create the higher elements, the heavier elements.

02:32:33.000 In our solar system, they all came from one event.

02:32:38.000 And so iron, wherever it is in our solar system, will have a certain ratio of isotopes that have a few that have an extra neutron or, you know, one more or one less kind of thing.

02:32:49.000 So there's sort of a fingerprint with that.

02:32:51.000 And supposedly, as I understand it, some of these materials have a different ratio than you would expect of metal found in our solar system.

02:33:02.000 At least that's one of the things they're looking for and testing for.

02:33:06.000 And then these composites, how do they refer to these composites?

02:33:10.000 Like when they talk about what these, the way these things are constructed, do they have a name for this type of a composite?

02:33:20.000 Well, they're not all, I'm not sure they're all composites, but I've seen some of these materials and they look like they're, some of them look like they're layered, like they're micromachined, you know, a millionth of an inch or a few bits.

02:33:34.000 Hundreds of an inch or something layered on top of one another with exotic, fairly exotic metals, bismuth and other things that, you know, people aren't normally using.

02:33:45.000 There it is.

02:33:45.000 Yeah, there's one.

02:33:46.000 Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s.

02:33:52.000 So was this from Roswell, supposedly?

02:33:54.000 Or some other craft?

02:33:55.000 That's one theory.

02:33:56.000 So I think the story behind this is, if I'm not mistaken, is that...

02:34:01.000 Somebody got this from their father who claimed he was at the site recovering material.

02:34:07.000 Gave it to the guy and this guy turned it over to a researcher.

02:34:10.000 That's the story I've heard.

02:34:11.000 It says it's made from 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth and 100 to 200 microns silver magnesium zinc alloy.

02:34:23.000 Each of six pieces received from US Army source were formed with a curvature that tapered.

02:34:31.000 Huh.

02:34:32.000 Yeah, pretty curious stuff.

02:34:34.000 As far as I know, nobody has identified a conventional source for that material or use of it.

02:34:42.000 So it's not like an alloy.

02:34:44.000 It's a very intricate process.

02:34:48.000 And what would be the benefit?

02:34:49.000 Is there a theory on what the benefit of making things in so many layers would be?

02:34:53.000 Well, supposedly, one theory about that material is that...

02:34:57.000 Talk into the mic.

02:34:58.000 I'm sorry.

02:34:58.000 One theory about that material is that it is a wave guide for microwave radiation.

02:35:06.000 So it can actually enhance microwave emissions that could go right through the material.

02:35:14.000 And if you were building a craft that was...

02:35:18.000 Wanting to transmit or receive microwave radiation for some purpose, propulsion or otherwise, a material like that might help you accomplish that.

02:35:29.000 That's one theory I've heard.

02:35:30.000 So the material might help accomplish this bizarre propulsion system that we totally don't understand?

02:35:35.000 You could have a craft maybe that was also, the shell of the craft was also an antenna, perhaps.

02:35:42.000 Or was...

02:35:45.000 Propagating radiation from the inside more efficiently.

02:35:50.000 I don't know a lot about it, but that's one of the explanations that I've heard.

02:35:55.000 Have you physically seen any of these scraps of metal?

02:35:58.000 Yes, I have.

02:35:59.000 What did it look like to you when you looked at it?

02:36:01.000 It was curious and odd.

02:36:02.000 It was silverish and, you know, people were looking at it trying to think whether it could be from some, you know, known component to some aircraft or ship or something.

02:36:16.000 Nobody has identified a conventional industrial counterpart to it.

02:36:22.000 Something that was manufactured to those specifications for some reason, as far as I know.

02:36:27.000 So it was lightweight.

02:36:29.000 It was peculiar.

02:36:31.000 You touch it in your hands?

02:36:34.000 I'm trying to remember if I touched that or not.

02:36:36.000 I think we had it right on the table, so I probably did.

02:36:41.000 When you say we, who?

02:36:43.000 Well, to the stars, there was an effort to...

02:36:51.000 Transfer some, have some of these materials tested and exploited.

02:36:55.000 And we were purchasing, the company, not me, but the company was purchasing some of the materials to try to facilitate that.

02:37:02.000 And so who was in possession of these materials that you could purchase them from?

02:37:07.000 In some cases, I don't know about that piece.

02:37:10.000 There were some people in the field who had been collectors or researchers and had some material just the way Jacques has probably got materials from 15 or 20 different materials, pieces from different alleged incidents.

02:37:25.000 One was an explosion of an object in Brazil, for example.

02:37:32.000 So there are some items out on the market that are around.

02:37:36.000 Not many, but there are a few.

02:37:38.000 When you saw this stuff, was that the most compelling piece of evidence that you had ever seen?

02:37:45.000 No, I'm actually very agnostic about that.

02:37:50.000 I think I haven't seen any test results.

02:37:54.000 I'm completely agnostic as to whether it's something that was produced on Earth for some obscure reason or whether it's something more exotic.

02:38:04.000 I'm not particularly impressed by that.

02:38:06.000 What impresses me most, I think if I could point to one thing, it would be the Nimitz case.

02:38:12.000 Really?

02:38:13.000 Yeah, there's some other stuff that is interesting and impressive that is not yet available.

02:38:29.000 But in terms of the stuff we can talk about, I would say that's the single most compelling thing.

02:38:36.000 Now, what can be done in terms of with the government?

02:38:40.000 What can be done to study this stuff more carefully?

02:38:45.000 Does a whole new department need to be developed?

02:38:49.000 Does all these pieces of evidence, the Nimitz case, the GoFast video, the Gimbal video, all the stuff we're talking about, do you think this merits enough attention?

02:39:01.000 Does this give enough people...

02:39:04.000 Curiosity to the point where you could see the government investing a considerable amount of capital and resources to studying this stuff on a much deeper level.

02:39:14.000 I do.

02:39:15.000 I think advanced propulsion, this suggests there may be some new...

02:39:21.000 Avenues that because, you know, there's proof of principle.

02:39:24.000 We're seeing something doing this.

02:39:25.000 It can be done.

02:39:26.000 And there's some theories, as I mentioned, like the Acubierre Drive and others.

02:39:31.000 Probably ought to be putting some money on those, investigating them, looking at them.

02:39:36.000 I do think there needs to be some organizational home for this.

02:39:39.000 There needs to be an advocate, somebody who is monitoring this and fighting for some money for it in the budget.

02:39:47.000 Doesn't need a huge amount.

02:39:49.000 Somebody to send the reports to.

02:39:50.000 You know, people right now, they've temporarily got this task force that was established.

02:39:55.000 But when that goes away, if there's not some enduring entity left behind, you know, where does all this stuff go?

02:40:02.000 And does anybody care about it?

02:40:03.000 Or does it just do we go back to the status quo ante or, you know, it just falls on the floor and nobody cares?

02:40:10.000 So I think we're getting to the point, I hope we're getting to the point where people are saying, yeah, we can learn a lot from anomalies.

02:40:16.000 In science, that's one of the ways breakthroughs most often occur, right, is some anomaly that is baffling, like the procession of Mercury in Einstein.

02:40:26.000 And Newton's theories couldn't explain that.

02:40:28.000 It's this weird outlier.

02:40:30.000 And then he came along with general relativity, perfectly explained it, bingo.

02:40:34.000 There's some strange anomalies going on here in our atmosphere worth our attention.

02:40:39.000 And yes, we ought to be studying it and there ought to be a centralized place where this stuff comes together.

02:40:44.000 And maybe a federal lab kind of a thing.

02:40:48.000 I'm not an advocate of big new organizational structures and Throwing billions of dollars at things.

02:40:53.000 I don't think you need to, but I think we could more effectively coordinate space-related research, for example, in R&D than we do today.

02:41:03.000 So we have DOE labs for nuclear energy and nuclear power.

02:41:08.000 We don't have something like that that universities and NASA and the military can work with on the space side.

02:41:15.000 So something like that that was flexible, that would give people a chance to partner from Different backgrounds and academia and so forth with the government is probably something that we could benefit from.

02:41:31.000 Is this something that's plausible?

02:41:33.000 Is there enough interest in the government currently to do something like this, to make some new department?

02:41:41.000 I mean, could it be justified?

02:41:42.000 Not a new department.

02:41:44.000 No, not like the new Department of Energy or Agriculture.

02:41:47.000 Not a whole new department.

02:41:48.000 No, this would be within existing entities.

02:41:52.000 Which entity, you think?

02:41:54.000 Probably DOD. There's already so much capability and authority and responsibility there.

02:42:01.000 And there are some people in the community that are standing up actually saying they want to be involved.

02:42:07.000 There are some people in the military, in the Defense Department.

02:42:11.000 That would like to get involved in researching this.

02:42:14.000 And how many people would have to be involved to do it correctly?

02:42:17.000 How many people do you think would have to be involved?

02:42:19.000 Like, say if they put it on you.

02:42:21.000 They said, listen, nobody knows more about this stuff than you do.

02:42:23.000 How do you go about doing this?

02:42:25.000 And how many people would need to be involved?

02:42:27.000 And where do you start?

02:42:28.000 And how do you observe these things?

02:42:30.000 And could we be doing something to maybe observe more of them?

02:42:35.000 Absolutely.

02:42:36.000 What could we be doing to observe more of them?

02:42:39.000 So, yeah, there's a lot we could do, and I don't have a precise number for people, but I could tell you some of the things I'd be thinking about wanting to scope to drive a number.

02:42:46.000 So, one of the things we haven't done yet is go into these existing databases from these incredible collection systems like the ballistic missile early warning system.

02:42:57.000 And if they've seen UFOs, they're not reporting it, but their systems are optimized to look for very specific kinds of things, like an ICBM. And they want to reduce clutter, so the other stuff is not displayed to the operator.

02:43:10.000 People in the op center don't even see it, but it's in the database.

02:43:14.000 There's a lot of databases like that where if we just pulled the data and had some contractors run it, we might find some really interesting signatures and patterns, which would then help us get a handle on the phenomenon and where we ought to be looking going forward.

02:43:27.000 So that would take some money to get some contractors to To do that, there are a number of different systems that I would want to do that on.

02:43:34.000 The space-based infrared system, the global acoustic monitoring system, some other systems.

02:43:39.000 Global acoustic monitoring system?

02:43:41.000 That would be, what would that be doing?

02:43:44.000 So that is listening for low frequency vibrations in the atmosphere.

02:43:50.000 And it was built and designed to detect nuclear weapons tests.

02:43:55.000 And I understand that it also detects meteors and bolides.

02:44:00.000 And I've heard rumors that it detects other things that they haven't been able to explain.

02:44:04.000 I haven't been able to get anybody to take a look at that yet.

02:44:08.000 I've suggested that to various people in the government.

02:44:11.000 You know, you might want to go talk to those guys and look at that database.

02:44:13.000 I don't think anybody has.

02:44:15.000 But there's a lot of systems like that that are incredible.

02:44:20.000 Look at the moving X-band radar, if you could bring that up.

02:44:25.000 The sea-based X-band radar.

02:44:29.000 Or the DARPA Space Telescope.

02:44:33.000 The DoD Space Fence.

02:44:36.000 There's amazing capabilities out there.

02:44:39.000 We're not even mining that data.

02:44:43.000 Has anybody ever said these things make a sound?

02:44:49.000 People have said they've heard humming sounds at close range, that kind of thing.

02:44:56.000 But never a sonic boom.

02:44:58.000 But no sound?

02:45:00.000 Occasionally, sometimes it's like a swooshing sound.

02:45:04.000 I would say the sort of hum or vibration, like a transformer.

02:45:08.000 A number of people who've been close to these things have said it's made a sound like that, like a transformer.

02:45:13.000 Did Bob Lazar ever say that it made a sound?

02:45:15.000 I don't know.

02:45:16.000 I don't know.

02:45:18.000 I've not had that discussion with them.

02:45:21.000 So that would be how you would use...

02:45:25.000 But in this case, actually, it's the movement through the atmosphere.

02:45:30.000 It's not like the transformer noise.

02:45:32.000 It's just the size and velocity in the air that's displaced creates this wave in the atmosphere.

02:45:37.000 But that was what I was...

02:45:38.000 It ripples through the air.

02:45:39.000 Asking because of this unusual propulsion system that we theorize they have, that they might not make that kind of wave.

02:45:48.000 Might not make any sound at all.

02:45:50.000 You're right.

02:45:51.000 They might find nothing there.

02:45:52.000 It's a good possibility.

02:45:53.000 But my thought is we're paid for this stuff already.

02:45:56.000 Why don't we look?

02:45:56.000 We got the data.

02:45:57.000 Let's take a look.

02:45:59.000 And these different databases.

02:46:01.000 And then you might find, ah, this system and this system are showing us some really weird stuff.

02:46:06.000 And we see things in orbit, and they're coming out of orbit, and they're going back to orbit, and we don't know what they are.

02:46:12.000 We ought to focus on that.

02:46:13.000 That's really interesting.

02:46:16.000 We could probably plausibly spend a reasonable amount of money and make a lot of headway in trying to identify what are the signatures that these things give off that we can then begin to track with this huge system that we have that's global and in outer space.

02:46:34.000 Then I would want to spend some money on propulsion.

02:46:37.000 And probably have some money, you'd need some money for testing some theories.

02:46:44.000 The nuclear weapons issue that you mentioned, monitoring our nuclear weapons, if that's going on, and there are a lot of reports...

02:46:53.000 Supposedly in 1973 is a story I just heard the other day from a foreign correspondent.

02:46:59.000 During the 73 war, we went to DEFCON 2. In Australia, a UFO appeared over a Navy communications system for submarine-launched ballistic missiles and just hovered for about a half an hour.

02:47:14.000 Again, unverified, but this is the story.

02:47:18.000 Well, if that kind of thing has any plausibility in these reports about interfering with RSAVMs, you might set up a collection event when you know we're going to be moving some things because it's a pre-planned exercise or something.

02:47:31.000 So maybe you keep an eye out and set some special collection up just in case something does get triggered by that or happens.

02:47:38.000 That would be pertinent to the Chinese and Russians.

02:47:42.000 As well.

02:47:43.000 I mean, nothing would be higher on their collection list than trying to understand any kind of new technology we had having to do with nuclear weapons.

02:47:52.000 So you might learn something, again, not saying it's aliens.

02:47:57.000 It would be worth doing.

02:47:58.000 Do we know anything about the way China or Russia views these things?

02:48:05.000 Not much.

02:48:06.000 Both countries have active UFO groups and the government seems to be connected to both of them and allowing them to exist and maybe encouraging them, probably getting some intelligence from them.

02:48:20.000 Read our papers and they may well listen to this podcast, for example.

02:48:24.000 They've got some people trying to figure out what's going on with the Americas.

02:48:27.000 Have they really got this technology or is this from somewhere else?

02:48:31.000 At least that's part of what appears to be happening, but they certainly have had their own incidents.

02:48:38.000 And over the years, we've been told about that.

02:48:43.000 One of the famous incidents that we had actually during Blue Book occurred in Russia, and it was a U.S. senator who was visiting Russia, and he and some of the staff while they were in Russia, it was...

02:48:56.000 It was one of the senators.

02:48:57.000 It was a majority leader or speaker of the House, very prominent U.S. politician who was on a rare Cold War visit to the Soviet Union and saw this flying saucer from the train he was on and other people there saw it.

02:49:12.000 That was one that went into the Blue Book files.

02:49:15.000 So they certainly have had incidents as well.

02:49:20.000 So is there another country that has a strong interest in UFOs besides China and Russia that we're aware of?

02:49:28.000 Yes.

02:49:29.000 France has had an official UFO investigative group for probably decades.

02:49:34.000 And small office, small budget, but they every year take, say, the top six cases from the police and the military and analyze them and bring in some scientists and engineers and see what they can make of that.

02:49:49.000 So they've been doing that for a long time, and there have been years where they've had more UFO reports, at least per capita, than we have.

02:49:55.000 Really?

02:49:56.000 Yeah.

02:49:56.000 This is very much a global phenomenon.

02:49:59.000 So they've been having these experiences for a long time, since the 40s or 50s.

02:50:04.000 And they have a more open-minded approach to it?

02:50:06.000 They do.

02:50:07.000 I would say the stigma that we have doesn't exist, at least to that degree over there.

02:50:12.000 They're more objective, scientific.

02:50:15.000 Their UFO groups tend to be less fantastical and more sort of focused on science.

02:50:23.000 Seems to be quite a bit of a different attitude and approach over there.

02:50:27.000 So if the president had listened to this podcast and took an interest in this and wanted to have a conversation with you, what do you think you would tell him?

02:50:38.000 I would focus on how to get the answers to the key questions and get to the bottom line and the truth.

02:50:45.000 Who you need to talk to, who you need to get on the carpet and put it to.

02:50:52.000 And so you can really get to the bottom of this thing.

02:50:55.000 And you think that we could make some progress in that direction if we took the right steps?

02:51:02.000 I think certainly if we did some of the things I was talking about, we'd be better off.

02:51:05.000 We'd gain some new knowledge and insight.

02:51:08.000 Where that takes us is hard to say.

02:51:11.000 You know, different directions it could go, but we'd be better off for it.

02:51:16.000 Mining these anomalies can be very profitable.

02:51:19.000 And I've suggested creating an office called the Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution.

02:51:27.000 And when our increasingly technical intelligence community detects things that are really weird and anomalous, like this business of these beams that are, you know, we're hitting the people in the Havana embassy, and you need some really smart technical people, you've got something just really weird, you have a sort of group of scientists and engineers who are focused that you can take these kinds of things to,

02:51:48.000 and they can figure out what to do with it or where to take it.

02:51:51.000 Did they ever figure out what those beams in the Havana Embassy were?

02:51:54.000 No, not to my knowledge.

02:51:55.000 And it's happened now recently in D.C. near the White House, according to some recent reports.

02:52:01.000 Do you explain that to people?

02:52:03.000 So what we're talking about is employees of the...

02:52:07.000 The U.S. government in Havana, mostly but elsewhere in addition to Havana, have started feeling very ill, headaches, a range of symptoms, loss of energy.

02:52:23.000 And it seems that they have been targeted with some kind of a RF weapon, some kind of electromagnetic radiation from a distance.

02:52:33.000 And we do know that the Russians in particular I have been developing devices like that for decades and they used to use them on our embassy in Moscow all the time for different kinds of collection purposes, different techniques.

02:52:50.000 So that's suspicious.

02:52:52.000 Cuba is a country where they could plausibly test something like that and have a degree of deniability.

02:52:59.000 They've got, you know, freedom of action down there.

02:53:02.000 They're still one of the few supporting governments that supports the regime there.

02:53:05.000 So it's someplace they might undertake further testing in a real world setting if they wanted to.

02:53:12.000 It's something that could be mobile and not clear what the objective is, whether it's to make people sick or whether is this incidental?

02:53:22.000 They're trying to get stuff off the computers and the people just happen to be close to the computers.

02:53:26.000 And they're trying to put a beam through there that scrapes energy off the screen or something.

02:53:32.000 We don't really know, but there seems to be a pattern to this stuff.

02:53:37.000 My friend Mike Swick, shout out to Mike Swick, he used to work for the, I think it was the Secret Service, and they had an embassy in Moscow, and they detected these devices that the Soviet Union had installed inside the walls that were listening devices that were powered by the movement of the building in the wind.

02:54:02.000 Interesting.

02:54:04.000 I don't know if that's true.

02:54:05.000 That's what he told me.

02:54:06.000 Does that make sense?

02:54:07.000 It does.

02:54:08.000 He said it was so sophisticated and it was so beyond anything that we had.

02:54:12.000 When we were building the new U.S. Embassy...

02:54:15.000 I hope I didn't fuck that story up, Mike.

02:54:17.000 You told me it a long time ago.

02:54:18.000 I know that we found antennas embedded in the concrete of the U.S. Embassy as it was being constructed, the new embassy that brought the entire construction to a halt.

02:54:28.000 The thing listening device, is this it?

02:54:30.000 Yeah.

02:54:30.000 Okay, let me just say it.

02:54:31.000 I've heard of it before.

02:54:32.000 You've heard of it before?

02:54:33.000 No, I think we've maybe talked, maybe that's why, because we talked about it on here.

02:54:35.000 Known as the Great Seal Bug, one of the first covert listening devices, or bugs, to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal.

02:54:44.000 It was concealed inside a GIF given by the Soviet Union to W. Averill Harriman, United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union, August 4th, 1945. Because it was passive, needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and activate,

02:55:01.000 it's considered a predecessor of radio frequency identification technology.

02:55:05.000 I don't think that's exactly what he was talking about.

02:55:07.000 He was talking about these bugs that were – they were actually powered by – you know, and the wind moves – you know, like your – A little kinetic energy.

02:55:15.000 Yeah, you have a watch.

02:55:15.000 It's an automatic watch.

02:55:16.000 You move your watch and that's what powers the watch.

02:55:19.000 They've been exploring all kinds of things like that.

02:55:22.000 And we actually – it cost the U.S. taxpayer hundreds of millions because halfway through the construction of the new U.S. embassy, They found in the concrete forms antenna shapes that made no sense to us.

02:55:35.000 We didn't know what the hell they were.

02:55:36.000 And weird designs and shapes that were intercepting some of our stuff and modifying it or using construction people outside of our supervision to do this.

02:55:49.000 And they had other things with the pipes and the wires.

02:55:53.000 All kinds of attacks on the embassy.

02:55:55.000 And some of it looked like physics that was hard for us to understand.

02:56:00.000 So I'm not surprised by that story.

02:56:03.000 Someone recently claimed about the pyramid things that were flying over the ship that it was Vlad.

02:56:12.000 There was some Soviet guy who said it was Vladimir Putin's creations.

02:56:18.000 News to me, we have validated the fact that he has developed a nuclear missile that is kind of like imagine a nuclear cruise missile with incredible range and maneuverability.

02:56:36.000 So that's something I don't know how much success they've had with it but they really do have a project like that and they have done some testing.

02:56:43.000 So there have been some advances under his time, under his tenure.

02:56:49.000 But I don't know, I don't think, I've not heard anything about triangular objects.

02:56:55.000 No, I'm sure.

02:56:56.000 It's Vlad.

02:56:57.000 Former senator says, no question UFOs buzzing over U.S. warships are from Russia.

02:57:02.000 The former senator condemns the Pentagon for admitting it cannot identify the strange objects.

02:57:08.000 So this is a former U.S. senator.

02:57:09.000 Oh, it's Harry Reid.

02:57:10.000 Do you know Harry Reid?

02:57:11.000 I do.

02:57:12.000 Not well, but I do know him.

02:57:14.000 So he believes that.

02:57:15.000 And he's a big UFO supporter, right?

02:57:17.000 He is.

02:57:18.000 A big believer.

02:57:18.000 He is.

02:57:20.000 He's tried to solve this problem from the congressional side of terms of the lack of interest of the U.S. government by putting some money on it, which created this AATIP program, the Advanced Airborne Identity Threat Program, Advanced Aerospace Threat Program.

02:57:36.000 So he's been involved for a long time, been very...

02:57:40.000 Curious about this, wanting to see some answers.

02:57:43.000 He has been very active, extremely active.

02:57:46.000 Well, Chris, this has been a very enlightening and interesting conversation, and I really appreciate your time, and I really appreciate your openness to discussing this stuff, because I know it does for a person that's a serious person.

02:58:00.000 It does open you up to ridicule.

02:58:04.000 In my community, I don't think there's any doubt that there are people making jokes about me behind my back and that kind of thing.

02:58:12.000 But I knew that was going to happen going into this.

02:58:15.000 And to me, there's a principle here, a very cherished principle.

02:58:20.000 I think you just have to do the right thing at the end of the day, which you believe in.

02:58:24.000 Well, I also think there's enough evidence at this point in time, and thankfully, because of the New York Times article from 2017, it's loosened a lot of the stigma attached to it. 0.98

02:58:34.000 And a lot of this, like we showed, the gimbal, the FLIR, the go fast video, this is wild shit. 0.98

02:58:40.000 And if we can't explain it, you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. 0.99

02:58:45.000 Amen.

02:58:46.000 That's my view as well.

02:58:49.000 Do you have any...

02:58:50.000 I know you're no longer with To The Stars Academy.

02:58:53.000 Do you have any official role in this stuff anymore?

02:58:58.000 Nothing official.

02:58:59.000 I stay in touch with people and try to help when I can, and that's about it.

02:59:05.000 All right, man.

02:59:05.000 Well, keep us posted, and if any new information comes out and you want to break it, you're always welcome.

02:59:10.000 Okay.

02:59:11.000 Thank you, Joe.

02:59:11.000 Thank you, sir.

02:59:11.000 Appreciate it very much, man.

02:59:13.000 Thank you.

02:59:14.000 Goodbye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - May 05, 2021

Joe Rogan Experience #1645 - Christopher Mellon

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