The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1701 - Rhonda Patrick

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:05.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 Alright, we're up.

00:00:14.000 What's happening, Rhonda?

00:00:15.000 Hey.

00:00:15.000 Very good to see you.

00:00:16.000 Good to see you.

00:00:17.000 It's been a year.

00:00:18.000 It has been.

00:00:19.000 It's been quite a while.

00:00:20.000 Yeah.

00:00:20.000 And you were just telling me that you're 13 days into keto.

00:00:24.000 I am.

00:00:25.000 How you feeling?

00:00:26.000 Well, let's start off with, well, why did I even want to do keto?

00:00:30.000 Why now?

00:00:30.000 I mean, like, this has been, how many years?

00:00:33.000 It's been trendy.

00:00:34.000 It's been, like, lots of benefits.

00:00:36.000 And it's like, why did I start trying it out now?

00:00:40.000 Well, I've noticed that when I am in a fasted state, so when I'm in ketosis, when I'm, you know, burning fatty acids and making keto bodies and using them as energy, I'm like on top of my mental game.

00:00:54.000 So I've been doing, like when I have any sort of like podcast interviews I'm doing or whatever, you know, I'm always trying to do them fast.

00:01:02.000 Like I'm fasted right now.

00:01:05.000 And so I thought to myself, is this something that could be mimicked by a ketogenic diet?

00:01:11.000 It's very noticeable for me.

00:01:13.000 Where I can stay focused.

00:01:15.000 I have more endurance.

00:01:17.000 So I don't crap out a couple hours.

00:01:20.000 More mental endurance.

00:01:22.000 Mental endurance.

00:01:22.000 Sorry, yeah.

00:01:23.000 More mental endurance.

00:01:25.000 So I decided to try it out.

00:01:28.000 And I recently had a neuroscientist on the podcast, Dr. Mark Matston.

00:01:32.000 Have you heard of him?

00:01:33.000 No.

00:01:34.000 He's legendary.

00:01:36.000 I mean, he's probably one of the most cited neuroscientists.

00:01:38.000 But he's most well-known for his...

00:01:41.000 I think?

00:01:57.000 Pathways that happen as a response to that are beneficial.

00:01:59.000 But anyways, so he was talking about when you're in a fasted state, when you haven't eaten, how your nervous system has sort of evolved to become more focused, more alert.

00:02:12.000 And that's adaptive because if you can't find food, you have to be alert in order to eat or else you'll die.

00:02:20.000 So he's talking about, like, one of the main things that happens is this metabolic switch, is what he calls.

00:02:28.000 So you do switch from burning glucose, you know, as a source of energy, to basically, you know, fatty acids are immobilized from your adipose tissue and go to your liver, and you start to, like, oxidize them and use them from energy, and then you make something called ketone bodies as a byproduct.

00:02:45.000 Beta-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate, And most people think about these, well, this is an alternative source of energy.

00:02:53.000 It crosses the blood-brain barrier.

00:02:54.000 It, you know, is easily used by, you know, neurons and other cells as well.

00:03:01.000 But it's actually an energetically favorable source of energy.

00:03:05.000 So it actually requires energy to use glucose as energy.

00:03:09.000 To make energy from glucose requires energy.

00:03:12.000 But beta-hydroxybutyrate That doesn't happen.

00:03:15.000 It goes into the mitochondrion and it's used without that energy requirement.

00:03:20.000 Can you explain how that works?

00:03:22.000 You use energy to use glucose?

00:03:25.000 Yeah.

00:03:25.000 So glucose gets broken down into something called pyruvate.

00:03:29.000 So it takes energy to do that.

00:03:31.000 And then pyruvate has to be transported into the mitochondria through an active transport mechanism.

00:03:37.000 And that requires energy to do that.

00:03:39.000 Once pyruvate gets into the mitochondria, it's then used through what's called the TCA cycle to make energy.

00:03:48.000 So beta-hydroxybutyrate gets converted into acetyl-CoA, and beta-hydroxybutyrate can just go in without this active transport mechanism.

00:03:57.000 So you're not requiring that energy to transport it in.

00:03:59.000 Does that make sense?

00:04:00.000 So you're making energy, but you're not using as much energy to make that energy.

00:04:04.000 So that's kind of like what most people are thinking about is this sort of metabolic switch that happens.

00:04:11.000 And you can imagine most people never do that.

00:04:13.000 I typically...

00:04:17.000 I do a lot of time-restricted eating where I'll eat my food anywhere between 8 to 10 hours, and then I'm fasting anywhere between like 14 to 16 hours a day.

00:04:26.000 And in order to actually go into this metabolic switch, you have to deplete all of your glycogen levels in your liver and muscle.

00:04:34.000 And that usually takes anywhere between 13 to 36 hours, depending on the person's carbohydrate intake, on their physical activity.

00:04:42.000 And so, you know, most people never get that metabolic switch.

00:04:46.000 Most people are just constantly burning using glucose.

00:04:50.000 And then when you're doing that, any fat that you're taking in gets stored as triglycerides and anipose tissue.

00:04:55.000 So they're always in this, like, fat storage space.

00:04:58.000 Instead of a fat-burning state, right?

00:05:01.000 And so, because most people are eating three meals a day and plus snacks, you just, you never get there.

00:05:08.000 So with the, you know, anywhere between 14 to 16 hours, that's what I typically was doing.

00:05:16.000 I'd noticed that, like, I was really mentally sharp.

00:05:20.000 And so as I extended that out a little bit, it was, like, really clear to me that, like, not eating...

00:05:26.000 It was good for my brain in terms of I felt smarter.

00:05:30.000 I felt like I could focus more.

00:05:32.000 It was noticeable, like a nootropic effect, right?

00:05:37.000 One of the other things that's probably less well known about beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is one of the major circulating ketones you do make when you're in ketosis, is that it is actually a signaling molecule.

00:05:48.000 And this was shown by Dr. Eric Verdin.

00:05:50.000 He runs the Buck Institute for Aging in Novato, California.

00:05:57.000 Back when he was at UCSF, that beta-hydroxybutyrate activates many different genes, one of them including brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF, which I know we've talked about before on the podcast.

00:06:10.000 But that's something that is critical for, you know, forming new synapses and for learning in memory.

00:06:16.000 I mean, there's all sorts of things that it does.

00:06:19.000 But beta-hydroxybutyrate's activating that.

00:06:21.000 Like, it's not just something that's being used as energy.

00:06:23.000 Like, it's changing gene expression.

00:06:28.000 So that got me really interested.

00:06:31.000 It's like, wow, this is something that, like, could be possibly also activating BDNF. Maybe that's partly why.

00:06:37.000 I mean, it's a hypothesis, but, you know, it seems like something that people could test and seems kind of, you know, it makes sense, right?

00:06:47.000 And so that was something that I was like, wow, what if I could do...

00:06:51.000 So I asked Dr. Madsen, I was like, what...

00:06:54.000 There's lots of differences between being in a fasted-induced ketosis and a ketogenic diet.

00:06:59.000 But there's also a lot of similarities.

00:07:01.000 And the similarities are, one, you're making lots of beta-hydroxybutyrate.

00:07:05.000 If you do the ketogenic diet right, we can talk about that.

00:07:08.000 But...

00:07:10.000 And so I was like, wow, maybe...

00:07:12.000 And then the other thing that overlaps between the two is that you produce a lot of GABA. GABA is the neurotransmitter that's typically more of an inhibitory type of neurotransmitter.

00:07:22.000 I'm sure Dr. Dom D'Agostino has talked about this.

00:07:25.000 I think I even remember him talking about it before.

00:07:29.000 That GABA is increased on both, you know, ketogenic diet and when you're in like a fasting-induced ketosis.

00:07:35.000 And GABA is...

00:07:38.000 You know, it kind of has an anxiolytic effect, so, like, helps calm you a little bit, but also seems to affect, and this is what, you know, some researchers think the reason why a ketogenic diet is so beneficial for, like, drug-resistant epilepsy is through GABA,

00:07:53.000 because it quiets down the neurons that have been excited through glutamate.

00:07:58.000 So, like, right now, we're, like, having an intellectual discussion, and we're, like, engaged, intellectually engaged, and so glutamate's being fired, right?

00:08:08.000 It can do a lot of damage.

00:08:09.000 Having this constant electrical activity, very stimulating, you need something...

00:08:14.000 If you didn't have GABA, you'd fry your brain without it, with too much glutamate.

00:08:19.000 So it can cause something called excitotoxicity.

00:08:21.000 And so GABA kind of counters that.

00:08:25.000 So anyways, some of the things that I'm noticing now that I've been on day 12 or 13, for one, It's been incredibly hard.

00:08:35.000 I've been measuring my beta-hydroxybutyrate levels daily, sometimes more than once a day, of course.

00:08:42.000 To be in mild ketosis, legitimately mild ketosis, I think you want to be somewhere between 0.9 and 1.2.

00:08:57.000 That's mild to moderate.

00:09:01.000 I can't tell you how difficult it's been for me to first get to that point.

00:09:07.000 It took several days and it's like, I think people, probably like 90 to 98% of people that think they're doing a ketogenic diet, they're not.

00:09:17.000 Really?

00:09:17.000 I think so, yes.

00:09:18.000 Because it's not just enough to do carb restriction.

00:09:23.000 And, like, you need a lot of fat.

00:09:25.000 Like, you need, especially in the beginning, like, if your body, like me.

00:09:29.000 So I've always, you know, for the most part, my diet has been what you would call paleo-ish.

00:09:35.000 You know, I would, you know, like, I would have my protein and vegetables.

00:09:39.000 And I, generally speaking, avoid, like, the refined stuff.

00:09:44.000 Refined carbohydrates, refined sugars, right?

00:09:46.000 But I do eat vegetables, which are carbohydrates.

00:09:49.000 And I also eat some fruits.

00:09:51.000 Um...

00:09:52.000 And so my body's used to, like, metabolizing the glucose and doing that whole pathway, you know, we were talking about, like, from carbohydrates.

00:10:00.000 And the fat that I'm getting mostly probably is being stored, honestly, as triglycerides.

00:10:05.000 But it takes a while for your body to switch to that.

00:10:10.000 And I was surprised how long, because I thought, well, I don't need all that refined stuff, so it should be easy.

00:10:16.000 It's just a little...

00:10:16.000 Like, it has been a huge challenge.

00:10:20.000 And you read about all these foods that are like, okay, vegetables that are keto friendly, you know, like cauliflower, or Brussels sprouts, or a little bit of spinach, or like, I will eat like just a little bit of sauteed spinach, and it'll take me for I will be in like 1.2 millimolar,

00:10:35.000 and it'll take me down to like, 0.7.

00:10:42.000 So it'll kick me out, just a little bit of something.

00:10:45.000 And if I'm not eating enough fat, I can't even get...

00:10:48.000 So I finally was able to...

00:10:49.000 Now I'm doing butter in my coffee, and I'm just trying to get olive oil on everything, and MCT oil on my coffee, and just lots and lots of fat.

00:10:58.000 When I started doing that, I was able to get up to 2.2 millimolar, which is good ketosis.

00:11:05.000 And then, like, I came here.

00:11:08.000 Traveling is really hard.

00:11:09.000 I ordered some, like, I had a steak, and then it was some kind of cauliflower mash with, like, cheese and bacon.

00:11:15.000 And that kicked me down to, like, 0.4.

00:11:18.000 Like, I was so upset.

00:11:20.000 So it's just the cauliflower?

00:11:21.000 Just the carbohydrate and the lack of not having as much oil, I think.

00:11:25.000 So, like, I have the protein.

00:11:27.000 So you can convert.

00:11:28.000 So the thing, like, there are what's called glucogenic amino acids.

00:11:32.000 And...

00:11:33.000 Those can be converted into glucose.

00:11:37.000 Your body has a way.

00:11:38.000 You need glucose.

00:11:40.000 Like, you can't, like, your red blood cells don't have mitochondria.

00:11:43.000 The only source of energy they can use is from glucose.

00:11:46.000 Your brain, you know, your astrocytes and their supporting cells in your brain are mostly glycolytic.

00:11:50.000 They mostly use glucose.

00:11:51.000 You need glucose.

00:11:52.000 So your body has mechanisms to make it, you know.

00:11:55.000 You can make it from these gluconeogenic amino acids, which are in protein.

00:12:00.000 Or you can make it from glycerol, which is like the background of a triglyceride.

00:12:07.000 Once you become adapted, and this is something that I know Dr. D'Agostino has talked about a lot, where he's got more of a modified ketogenic diet.

00:12:15.000 He's been in it for years.

00:12:17.000 He's done a ketogenic diet for years.

00:12:21.000 He can eat something that's a lot more...

00:12:24.000 You can have the protein and the keto-friendly carbohydrates, like the leafy greens that are not super carb.

00:12:31.000 And it won't kick him out.

00:12:33.000 Yeah, because he's adapted.

00:12:36.000 You know, you read all these recipes, like, I'm going online, I'm trying to do keto recipes and all this, and it's like, none of them work.

00:12:42.000 None of them work.

00:12:43.000 All the stuff that you, like, find in the store that says keto on it, totally not.

00:12:47.000 Totally not.

00:12:47.000 Really?

00:12:48.000 Oh, yeah, because they have too much carbohydrates and not enough fat.

00:12:51.000 And then they do this thing with this net carb, the net carb, you know, fiber.

00:12:55.000 I'm telling you, like, if people were to measure...

00:12:58.000 Their blood levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate, they would know.

00:13:02.000 What is the best way to do that?

00:13:03.000 Is it the best way to do it through ketone strips?

00:13:05.000 Is it the best way to do it through a breathalyzer type deal?

00:13:09.000 I personally always think blood is the best.

00:13:12.000 I'm not an expert.

00:13:13.000 I haven't actually done a deep dive on all the different methods.

00:13:16.000 Personally, if you're measuring glucose, for example, blood is more accurate than interstitial fluid area.

00:13:23.000 So I like to use this precision extra That you can get.

00:13:29.000 And you can get these ketone strips.

00:13:32.000 And they're actually a lot cheaper than they were a few years ago.

00:13:35.000 They used to be really expensive.

00:13:37.000 And I just do that.

00:13:38.000 And I think that's the way I prefer.

00:13:40.000 I mean, maybe there's some accuracy in some of the other ones, but I don't really know, honestly.

00:13:46.000 Is there any benefit to using exogenous ketones?

00:13:52.000 So, I'll tell you what I think the benefit is.

00:13:54.000 It's probably not something you're going to expect.

00:13:57.000 So, I've tried exogenous ketones many times, beta-hydroxybutyrate ester.

00:14:01.000 The salts are, like, the salts, like, I'm sure, like, Dr. Dagenstein has talked about that as well.

00:14:06.000 Like, they don't really, they don't work as well.

00:14:09.000 Like, in terms of, like, actually raising you up to a millimole level in terms of...

00:14:12.000 So what is the difference in the actual name of the, like, the supplements?

00:14:16.000 Like, the salts would be...

00:14:17.000 Salts would be, like, a salty powder thing that you, like, add.

00:14:19.000 And the ketone ester will be a liquid.

00:14:21.000 Okay.

00:14:22.000 It'll be a liquid.

00:14:23.000 So the liquid is more effective than the salts?

00:14:25.000 Oh, yeah.

00:14:25.000 Salts are not very effective at all?

00:14:26.000 Not very much at all.

00:14:27.000 And plus, they, like, can give you GI distress and stuff.

00:14:30.000 And a lot of them have a lot of either sodium or calcium, depending on what it's complex to.

00:14:34.000 But...

00:14:34.000 So, one of the things that's interesting about the beta-hydroxybutyrate exogenous ketone esters, and I've tried a few different brands, they all work pretty well.

00:14:47.000 They'll raise you up.

00:14:48.000 For example, if you drink the whole serving, most of them are like 30 mils.

00:14:52.000 They can take you from zero to 3.3 millimolar.

00:14:58.000 Ketosis that I haven't been able to achieve yet from 12 or 13 days of a ketogenic diet.

00:15:04.000 You can experience some of the effects, but it also has the effect of lowering your blood glucose at the same time.

00:15:12.000 And it's like, this is something that researchers are actually looking into, like, oh, this could potentially help people that can't regulate their blood sugar levels, you know?

00:15:19.000 And this is only through exogenous ketones, esters?

00:15:24.000 The exogenous ketone esters, yes.

00:15:26.000 So it lowers your blood glucose dramatically.

00:15:28.000 But the problem with that is, They're very short-lived.

00:15:32.000 They're very transient.

00:15:34.000 So every time I've done it, they wear off two hours max.

00:15:39.000 Two hours max.

00:15:40.000 The problem is your blood glucose is also dramatically lower.

00:15:44.000 And if you don't eat, if you don't replenish that, you can crash hard.

00:15:48.000 You can crash hard.

00:15:50.000 Because you have no beta-hydroxybutyrate around as the energy source.

00:15:53.000 Now, whereas you're in ketosis, actual ketosis, your blood sugar levels are lower, but you're making beta-hydroxybutyrate, right?

00:16:01.000 Would there be a benefit to do that, like say if you were going to do something that was like mentally taxing, if you're going to take a test or something like that, would there be a benefit in taking exogenous ketones?

00:16:11.000 So I have, I used to kind of use them that way.

00:16:14.000 But again, if you don't, it's short-lived.

00:16:17.000 Would you take it with some sort of glucose?

00:16:19.000 I used to take it with carbohydrates, yeah.

00:16:21.000 Like fruits or something?

00:16:22.000 Like oatmeal or fruit, exactly.

00:16:25.000 But even that, like, you know, your blood glucose will peak and then two hours later it's going to go back down.

00:16:29.000 So you still, you need to like keep that source going.

00:16:32.000 So, and I noticed that like several times.

00:16:35.000 It was like, oh, this is good for a very, really the peak of it was like an hour.

00:16:39.000 And is there, when you take these ketone esters, is there a number of them, like is there an amount you can take in a day, the amount of times you can take it in a day?

00:16:49.000 Can you only do it once?

00:16:50.000 People, I mean, some of these companies that make them claim you can do it more than once a day.

00:16:55.000 I know people that do it.

00:16:57.000 Personally, I think the benefit of the ketone ester is, and I'll tell you what I've used it for.

00:17:03.000 I tried the mental stuff.

00:17:04.000 But so getting someone who you think will benefit from ketosis, from a ketogenic diet, Getting them to do it, like, this diet is hard.

00:17:14.000 It is hard.

00:17:14.000 It's hard.

00:17:15.000 I can't, like, emphasize it, like, actually doing it.

00:17:18.000 Like, I'm telling you, I think people think they're doing it, and they're not.

00:17:22.000 What they're doing is just a low, low, low-carb diet.

00:17:23.000 It's different.

00:17:25.000 Anyways, so, like, convincing someone to do it is difficult.

00:17:31.000 Like, very difficult.

00:17:32.000 And so, if you give them the exogenous ketone ester...

00:17:36.000 They can experience, oh, I would feel this way.

00:17:39.000 I would feel this way more often if I could, you know, first of all, initially do the ketogenic diet.

00:17:45.000 So I did this with my mom.

00:17:46.000 So my mom has two types of motor dysfunction tremors. 1.00

00:17:50.000 She has essential tremor, which is the kind of tremor where, like, you know, you kind of just shake, like, when you're doing something or grabbing, like, you know, some spoon or whatever.

00:17:59.000 And then she has orthostatic tremor, which is like tremors where if she stands still, her legs shake really fast.

00:18:06.000 So she can walk fine, but if she's standing, it's really hard.

00:18:09.000 So she has to not stand.

00:18:10.000 She has to sit or walk or move. 0.92

00:18:13.000 And with all the research on the effects of ketogenic diets on epilepsy, and then there's also some data, and Dr. Mattson talked about this with me because he actually worked with the late Richard Beach on this, who was the guy who invented the ketone ester.

00:18:32.000 I think?

00:18:38.000 I think?

00:18:48.000 It absolutely helped, mostly with her essential tremor, but she noticed a little bit of an effect with orthostatic.

00:18:54.000 Now, of course, there's always the placebo.

00:18:56.000 You can't placebo this. 1.00

00:18:57.000 It tastes like shit. 1.00

00:18:58.000 Like, you can't. 1.00

00:18:59.000 Like, I mean, maybe you could, but it's hard to come up with the placebo.

00:19:02.000 I mean, people drinking this are like, okay, I'm kidding.

00:19:04.000 Yeah.

00:19:05.000 I've tasted it.

00:19:06.000 Yeah.

00:19:06.000 It's rough.

00:19:07.000 Yeah.

00:19:07.000 So, you know, it's kind of like...

00:19:09.000 Gasoline.

00:19:10.000 There's always that, right?

00:19:12.000 Yeah.

00:19:12.000 So she's done this enough times.

00:19:15.000 It also helped with her migraines.

00:19:18.000 And there's a body of literature out there where it helps.

00:19:22.000 Ketogenic diet's been shown to help with migraines, both prevention and treatment.

00:19:26.000 And then there's one study showing ketone ester can help with migraines as well.

00:19:30.000 I mean, they're not the best done.

00:19:33.000 Again, there's no placebo and all that, so you have to take it with a grain of salt.

00:19:37.000 But she's now been on the ketogenic diet with me.

00:19:41.000 And she's having the darndest time getting into ketosis, too.

00:19:46.000 She's not doing the butter and the coffee and all the fat. 0.62

00:19:49.000 I'm just really trying to get as much fat as I can.

00:19:52.000 How is she doing it?

00:19:53.000 Well, she's been eating the same meals, and she's a person that was like, refined carbs! 1.00

00:20:01.000 Woohoo! 1.00

00:20:02.000 I mean, she's someone that I've had to work hard on to get her to stop drinking sugar-sweetened beverages. 0.73

00:20:11.000 She thinks it fixes her migraine.

00:20:14.000 Coca-Cola?

00:20:16.000 She would say it fixes her migraines?

00:20:18.000 Yeah, it does.

00:20:19.000 Does it?

00:20:20.000 According to her, I mean...

00:20:22.000 Is there any reason why it would do that?

00:20:24.000 Maybe some caffeine.

00:20:25.000 The caffeine's been shown to help.

00:20:28.000 Also, potentially, if she's having... 1.00

00:20:30.000 If glucose is having a hard time getting into her brain and being used by her neurons, maybe that... 0.98

00:20:37.000 You know, huge sugar rush from the Coke is going to help.

00:20:41.000 All the more reason, like, there's been, you know, there's been evidence, both animal and some early clinical evidence, that basically you can take someone with, like, early dementia.

00:20:51.000 And one of the earliest signs, actually, of both Alzheimer's disease and Alzheimer's, I'm not so sure if it's also dementia, but definitely Alzheimer's disease is impaired glucose, like brain use of glucose.

00:21:05.000 Like people, like their neurons and stuff are not using glucose well.

00:21:09.000 And so like naturally, of course, beta-hydroxybutyrate would be an alternative to that, you know?

00:21:15.000 So anyways, what was I getting at?

00:21:19.000 Oh, yeah.

00:21:20.000 Basically...

00:21:21.000 There could be some effect with the glucose rush for her headache thing.

00:21:27.000 But, again, the exogenous ketones worked.

00:21:30.000 They did.

00:21:31.000 And so I've given it to her, and she's been wanting to do the ketogenic diet.

00:21:38.000 And I think it just finally took me doing it to get her to start it.

00:21:42.000 Does she live in the same neighborhood as you? 0.81

00:21:44.000 No.

00:21:45.000 No, she's close.

00:21:46.000 I mean, she's in the same city.

00:21:47.000 She comes and helps out with, like, my son.

00:21:49.000 So she's at my house, like, three or four days a week.

00:21:51.000 So you can help show her what foods to eat?

00:21:54.000 Yes, yes.

00:21:55.000 What are you trying to get her to eat, like, specifically?

00:21:57.000 Well, right now, we've been...

00:21:58.000 I've been so busy, and so I've been, like, doing the...

00:22:03.000 What's the least amount of work?

00:22:06.000 Bacon.

00:22:07.000 Bacon.

00:22:08.000 I've got a bunch of bacon in my purse right now because I've got to catch a flight after this and I'm fasted.

00:22:12.000 I'm like, I've got to eat something before I get on the plane.

00:22:14.000 Anyways.

00:22:15.000 What about beef tallow?

00:22:16.000 Do you ever just scoop out beef tallow?

00:22:18.000 Not yet.

00:22:19.000 Not yet.

00:22:20.000 So what I've been doing just these past 12 or 13 days is what I thought was going to really get me in ketosis and be a ketogenic diet, which was protein, avocado, olive oil drizzled all over it, some of the high-fat,

00:22:36.000 low-carb nuts like pecans and macadamia nuts.

00:22:41.000 And then I thought, oh, you know me, like, micronutrients, I need the magnesium, I need...

00:22:46.000 So avocados are great, they're giving a lot of stuff like potassium, but the magnesium, which I'm now supplementing with, is something that's been hard to get without my leafy greens.

00:22:55.000 And my leafy greens have been, like, kicking me out of ketosis.

00:23:01.000 So I have to...

00:23:02.000 Even if you, like, drench them in butter and...

00:23:05.000 I drenched it in butter and olive oil.

00:23:09.000 The spinach, when you cook it down, it's a lot more carb, actually, when it's cooked.

00:23:14.000 Really?

00:23:15.000 Yeah, because haven't you ever sautéed spinach?

00:23:18.000 Right, but I never thought it would be more carb.

00:23:20.000 Because you're eating more of it.

00:23:23.000 If you're eating a spinach salad, you would stop.

00:23:26.000 You're like, oh, this is a big old bowl, too much.

00:23:28.000 But you eat that sautéed spinach, and it's like a little piece.

00:23:31.000 It was like a little portion.

00:23:32.000 How much spinach was in there?

00:23:33.000 I don't know.

00:23:35.000 So, of course, everything that I was like, yes, I can do my leafy greens.

00:23:41.000 I think I will be able to eventually, but not initially.

00:23:45.000 Not initially, for sure.

00:23:46.000 So you have to supplement.

00:23:48.000 I am.

00:23:49.000 Anything else?

00:23:50.000 Selenium?

00:23:51.000 Is there any other things that you're supplementing with?

00:23:53.000 Even selenium and meat and stuff.

00:23:55.000 I mean, I get it.

00:23:56.000 My multivitamin has all that stuff anyways, but I usually don't have to take extra magnesium because I usually get so much from eating dark leafy greens.

00:24:04.000 And so that's like the main one that I've added.

00:24:07.000 And you're eating meat pretty much every day?

00:24:10.000 Yeah, every day.

00:24:10.000 What kind of meat?

00:24:11.000 Like ribeyes?

00:24:12.000 Ribeyes.

00:24:13.000 I had ribeye.

00:24:14.000 Yeah.

00:24:14.000 Last night I had a ribeye.

00:24:15.000 A stupid cauliflower hash. 1.00

00:24:20.000 It was like a keto place. 1.00

00:24:22.000 I ordered it from my postmates to my hotel and They have a keto place?

00:24:25.000 It's called Keto Kitchen.

00:24:27.000 Oh, but it's not keto.

00:24:28.000 It kicked me down from 2.1 to like.4.

00:24:35.000 I was so upset.

00:24:37.000 And then I did bounce back somewhat.

00:24:38.000 I was one millimolar this morning, which was good.

00:24:40.000 But still, I was pissed.

00:24:42.000 Yeah, so the cauliflower hash.

00:24:45.000 First world problems.

00:24:46.000 Yeah.

00:24:48.000 It's hard to get up to 2.2.

00:24:50.000 Is it a matter of doing it for long periods of time where your body becomes fat adapted and understands it and gets accustomed to it?

00:24:59.000 Is that what it is?

00:25:00.000 Yeah, I think so.

00:25:01.000 Is there an actual mechanism that's causing this process to be more robust over time?

00:25:07.000 That's a great question that I don't know and I've been wanting to know the answer to.

00:25:11.000 What's the actual mechanism?

00:25:13.000 And, you know, all I can come up with is, like, you know, it is, you know, you're getting your liver to, like, it's always easy.

00:25:22.000 It's just easier to, like, use that glucose.

00:25:24.000 You know, so, like, getting the liver to, like, oxidize the fatty acids and then make the ketones on top of that.

00:25:30.000 Great question.

00:25:31.000 Maybe Dom Dacostino knows.

00:25:33.000 Maybe I'll figure it out.

00:25:34.000 I don't know.

00:25:35.000 But there's something, like, it's real.

00:25:38.000 Like, it's real and...

00:25:40.000 I think maybe, you know, there's probably some individual variation there, too.

00:25:45.000 I mean, there's lots of genes regulating these things.

00:25:47.000 When you're getting your mother to take the ketone esters and, you know, there is that issue that you were talking about.

00:25:53.000 Yeah, glucose drop.

00:25:54.000 So how do you mitigate that with your mom?

00:25:56.000 Well, she usually will, like, get some orange juice and, like, eat some oatmeal with fruit in it. 0.50

00:26:03.000 And that's, you know, she's, like, increasing her carb intake, basically.

00:26:09.000 But still, you know...

00:26:11.000 For someone like me, even a little bit of carbs that I eat with the vegetables and stuff, it's just, I will crash.

00:26:19.000 I will crash hard.

00:26:21.000 I started doing this whole, okay, fasting in the morning, I've noticed I'm more mentally on my game, and then it was like, okay, well, maybe I could just try the ketogenic diet.

00:26:35.000 Getting the micronutrient intake has been very important to me, and then, of course, I was pregnant and then I breastfed.

00:26:44.000 I did an extended breastfeeding and all this time I didn't want to do any restrictive diets really.

00:26:48.000 And then the pandemic hit and it was just like all this excuses.

00:26:54.000 But I finally got the motivation once it was very noticeable.

00:26:59.000 I know you exercise a lot.

00:27:02.000 Do you notice a difference in your energy levels with keto?

00:27:05.000 Because I found when I tried it that at least the initial part of it was very difficult to work out hard.

00:27:12.000 I did not work out hard.

00:27:15.000 I haven't actually worked out really hard for 13 days.

00:27:22.000 Because you're giving your body a chance to adapt?

00:27:26.000 Mostly because I've been so damn busy, but I just haven't been...

00:27:31.000 I actually probably should have been working out more because you can actually kick yourself into ketosis by doing that because you deplete your glycogen stores.

00:27:40.000 Is there any specific type of workout that's better for that?

00:27:43.000 Aerobic, definitely.

00:27:45.000 But on the flip side of that, if you're doing strength training, you remember we talked about the glucogenic amino acids?

00:27:53.000 So gluconeogenesis refers to the process of your body making glucose without having to have a carbohydrate source.

00:28:00.000 Your body can make it from these specific certain amino acids.

00:28:04.000 There's quite a few of them.

00:28:06.000 And also from the glycerol backbone of triglycerides.

00:28:09.000 You have three fatty acids on a glycerol background.

00:28:11.000 When you sort of break that up, that backbone can also do that.

00:28:17.000 So strength training can cause you to take amino acids up into muscle.

00:28:23.000 And some of those glucogenic amino acids are like some of the branch chain amino acids that you're taking up into muscle.

00:28:30.000 So you're basically, if you're strength training, I don't know if this has been shown.

00:28:34.000 It's like, you know, a theoretical speculation.

00:28:37.000 But like, in theory, you should be taking up some of those amino acids and not converting as much because that's another thing, too much protein.

00:28:45.000 Without the fat, it could potentially kick you out.

00:28:49.000 I'm probably also experiencing that.

00:28:51.000 I've got to eat.

00:28:52.000 All I'm eating is avocados.

00:28:53.000 I have avocados in my bag.

00:28:55.000 I travel with them.

00:28:56.000 What else can you do besides all the oil in the coffee?

00:29:00.000 What do they do when they check you at the airport and they find all this food in your bag?

00:29:03.000 They didn't do anything.

00:29:04.000 What's wrong with this lady? 1.00

00:29:05.000 She's got bacon and avocados in her bag.

00:29:07.000 Well, it's a good thing because, I mean, it's really like...

00:29:10.000 Yeah, everything's carbs at the airport.

00:29:12.000 It's all carbs and I didn't eat anything on the flight.

00:29:15.000 It was like, you know...

00:29:17.000 The difficult aspect of it is the gluconeogenesis, right?

00:29:21.000 So if you just eat meat, your body's going to eventually convert that to glucose and that'll kick you out.

00:29:26.000 Yeah.

00:29:26.000 So you have to have meat with lots of fat.

00:29:29.000 Exactly.

00:29:30.000 And that's the thing that I'm learning is that, I mean, at least initially, like I said, you know, there's there are people out there that have been doing this for a long time.

00:29:37.000 And they like, I'm sure they're like, they're much more of an expert, they can tell you exactly what you got to eat.

00:29:42.000 And when you can switch over to more of that.

00:29:44.000 But like, I'm learning about this. 0.96

00:29:46.000 And I'm going, holy shit, like, I thought I could just eat some meat and restrict my carbs. 0.80

00:29:50.000 And like, I'd be in ketosis and Dom D'Agostino, he would travel with oysters and olive oil. 0.88

00:29:56.000 So I have sardines in olive oil, and they're like my favorite because they're really high in omega-3.

00:30:02.000 There's like almost a thousand, there's like 800 or something milligrams of EPA and almost like 500 or something.

00:30:10.000 There's literally like a ton of omega-3 in my sardines.

00:30:14.000 And they're in olive oil.

00:30:17.000 The olive oil tastes a little fishy, but I also have a little chili in it.

00:30:20.000 So it's like a spicy.

00:30:22.000 So I've got like four or five of those I brought with me.

00:30:26.000 Did I tell you that I used to eat those every day?

00:30:28.000 And then I got my blood work done.

00:30:30.000 I had a level of arsenic that was a little disturbing.

00:30:32.000 And the doctor started asking me questions, like, what's your diet like?

00:30:36.000 We go over there, he goes, is there any, do you eat any canned fish?

00:30:41.000 And I said, yeah, I eat sardines, like, every day.

00:30:43.000 He goes, that's it.

00:30:44.000 He goes, cut that out, let's try it again in a couple of months.

00:30:47.000 And?

00:30:47.000 Yeah, it was gone.

00:30:48.000 It was, specifically it was arsenic?

00:30:50.000 Yeah, arsenic.

00:30:52.000 Really?

00:30:52.000 No.

00:30:53.000 So, that's interesting because... 0.99

00:30:54.000 They're dirty little fish. 0.97

00:30:56.000 They're dirty little fish at the bottom of the sea. 0.91

00:30:58.000 I'm gonna have to do another, I've done an arsenic test before, um...

00:31:02.000 How long ago?

00:31:03.000 It was like maybe two and a half years ago.

00:31:08.000 You're eating these every day now?

00:31:11.000 I was not eating these every day when I did this test.

00:31:13.000 But you are now.

00:31:14.000 I am now.

00:31:15.000 So I gotta do it.

00:31:16.000 They contain a lot of heavy metals apparently.

00:31:19.000 Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

00:31:21.000 Pollution?

00:31:21.000 Oh no.

00:31:24.000 I mean, this is just my experience.

00:31:25.000 What am I going to eat, Joe?

00:31:26.000 Well, maybe there's cans you can get where they get it from better sources.

00:31:30.000 Yeah.

00:31:31.000 This was quite a few years ago.

00:31:32.000 I don't remember what source I was getting it from.

00:31:35.000 Because they're so tiny little fish.

00:31:37.000 You'd think they'd have lower levels of that stuff.

00:31:41.000 They're at the bottom.

00:31:42.000 They're at the bottom.

00:31:43.000 They have lower mercury, much lower than like a bigger fish.

00:31:45.000 I guess it's not the same with arsenic.

00:31:47.000 I don't know.

00:31:48.000 I mean, again, it could have just been the source I was getting from.

00:31:51.000 Maybe other sources have no arsenic.

00:31:53.000 I mean, they're a really well-traveled fish, right?

00:31:57.000 They're available in a lot of different parts of the world, I believe.

00:32:01.000 Well, I'm glad I wasn't eating them every day while I was breastfeeding either because I didn't want to transfer that to my breast milk.

00:32:07.000 But there are warnings where people say you shouldn't, particularly like freshwater fish.

00:32:11.000 I was reading about this guy.

00:32:12.000 No, I was listening to a podcast about this guy who got mercury poisoning and he was a...

00:32:19.000 A freshwater angler, and he would compete in a lot of fishing tournaments, and he ate fish, like, pretty much every day.

00:32:27.000 Like, freshwater fish.

00:32:28.000 And he developed mercury poisoning.

00:32:30.000 Like, pretty severe mercury poisoning.

00:32:32.000 Yeah.

00:32:33.000 I mean, you definitely can get mercury poisoning from eating certain fish.

00:32:37.000 Dangers of eating anchovies.

00:32:39.000 Oh, I was eating sardines, but...

00:32:41.000 Oh, yeah.

00:32:42.000 Right.

00:32:42.000 Different thing.

00:32:43.000 But let's...

00:32:43.000 A couple of friends...

00:32:44.000 I got some parasite...

00:32:48.000 Oh, that's a different thing.

00:32:51.000 Yucky.

00:32:51.000 That's a whole other concern.

00:32:52.000 Associated with eating sushi.

00:32:54.000 The ingest of anchovies infected with parasites.

00:32:57.000 Oh, great.

00:32:59.000 Fun, fun, fun.

00:33:00.000 Sushi is like, raw fish is also higher in mercury.

00:33:03.000 When you cook the mercury, the levels go down.

00:33:06.000 Yeah, I've heard that, that raw fish is very high in it.

00:33:10.000 Higher in it, yeah.

00:33:10.000 People that eat a lot of sushi, they can get mercury issues, right?

00:33:14.000 Yeah.

00:33:14.000 And is it salt water versus fresh water?

00:33:18.000 I didn't know about that.

00:33:19.000 What I know about is the size of the fish.

00:33:23.000 So the worst thing you can do is eat swordfish.

00:33:27.000 But as you go down, there's certain fish, like salmon sardines, are really low in mercury salmon sardines.

00:33:35.000 Some anchovies as well, but other issues.

00:33:38.000 So the bigger fish.

00:33:39.000 Yeah, because they eat smaller fish and it accumulates.

00:33:43.000 Yeah, so it's accumulating in their fat.

00:33:46.000 So I always try to eat fish that are lower.

00:33:51.000 They're high in the omega-3 index.

00:33:53.000 Wild Alaskan salmon is my favorite.

00:33:55.000 It's a fatty fish.

00:33:56.000 It's also great for the ketogenic diet because it's a fatty fish.

00:33:59.000 It's high in the omega-3 levels and lower in things like mercury and stuff like that.

00:34:12.000 Yeah.

00:34:32.000 That argument is always odd to me because, you know, yeah, the entire world, it's unsustainable, but is it available to you right now?

00:34:39.000 Yes.

00:34:40.000 So, like, what are you doing?

00:34:41.000 Like, I don't understand those arguments because, like, you can't convince the whole world to do certain things.

00:34:46.000 Now, if the whole world started taking omega supplements and then it became a real issue with, you know, supply and demand, but they're not.

00:34:55.000 So like I get so confused when people want everything to be sustainable to the whole world.

00:35:00.000 Like when I've told people like, I think that eating wild game is healthier, they'll go, yeah, but that's not sustainable for the whole world.

00:35:08.000 The whole world's not doing a lot of things.

00:35:10.000 The whole world's not exercising.

00:35:12.000 Listen, I'm just talking about what's available for you currently as a human being listening to this.

00:35:18.000 Is it available for 8 billion people?

00:35:20.000 No, it is not.

00:35:21.000 But guess what?

00:35:22.000 You're not going to motivate 8 billion people to do anything anyway.

00:35:24.000 Right.

00:35:26.000 It's funny you mention that.

00:35:27.000 The conversation is bananas to me because people always want to use it as an excuse to not do something healthy.

00:35:33.000 True.

00:35:35.000 Did you know about, you mentioned the wild game, and like, if we could go back to Omega 3, I'd love to, but like, there have, so there, I've looked at some studies.

00:35:43.000 So when the pandemic hit, I like bought a bunch of like, you know, wild elk and like, claim to be wild, you know?

00:35:50.000 It's definitely not.

00:35:51.000 Okay.

00:35:51.000 Well, It's all from New Zealand, most of it.

00:35:53.000 Is it?

00:35:54.000 Okay.

00:35:54.000 Well, I was buying that, and then I was buying, like, pasture-raised, this and that, of course.

00:35:58.000 And so we looked into, like, the differences of, like, you know, looking at, like, vitamin and mineral profiles and, you know, the omega-3 fatty acid profiles and the fat and the macronut protein and all that.

00:36:10.000 And, like, elk, for example, wild, like, wild elk, like, wild game, like, you're getting.

00:36:15.000 It's interesting.

00:36:16.000 It does have, like, higher concentrations of some, like, minerals and micronutrients, like zinc.

00:36:21.000 Like, so you're getting, like, a much higher level of some of those things.

00:36:25.000 It has higher levels of omega-3, like, ALA and some of the omega-3 fatty acids compared to, certainly compared to conventional.

00:36:34.000 But anyways, yeah, I mean, in a way, if you define healthier as more micronutrient-packed, it is.

00:36:41.000 It's healthier, yeah.

00:36:42.000 It's also, it just looks healthier.

00:36:45.000 If you look at it, like the other day I cooked a piece of beef, and then I cooked a bunch of elk, and my family was, you know, we're eating both, and we're looking at the elk versus the beef.

00:36:55.000 The elk, it's so dark.

00:36:57.000 It's so dark and rich, and it just...

00:37:00.000 You can't eat as much.

00:37:02.000 You get full quicker.

00:37:04.000 Your body gets satisfied by it quicker.

00:37:06.000 But it's also just that whatever is causing it to be so dark, it's quite evident when you look at that one of them is more attractive to you.

00:37:16.000 Right.

00:37:17.000 I don't know if it's as simple as the stuff that you buy at the supermarket just oxidizing out in the air.

00:37:25.000 It's just the diet, because if you get grass-fed meat, it's a darker meat.

00:37:30.000 Grass-fed beef is quite a bit darker.

00:37:33.000 Grass-fed, grass-finished beef is much darker and has much less fat, and it tastes much more like game.

00:37:40.000 Some people do not like the taste of grass-fed meat because it actually tastes like meat.

00:37:45.000 When you're getting grain-fed cows, which is what most people love, you get that juicy, like really fatty meat.

00:37:52.000 That's a dying animal. 0.99

00:37:54.000 That's an animal that, you know, if you just let it eat like that, it would just tip over and have a fucking heart attack. 1.00

00:38:00.000 Well, they've compared. 0.99

00:38:01.000 You're right.

00:38:01.000 It is like the conventional fattier as well.

00:38:04.000 And before 2017, like that's, for a long time, I was like, the main reason I was avoiding conventional meat was because, you know, these, I don't know what you call them, these farmers, the ones that are growing, like having the cows all packed in and they're, you know,

00:38:19.000 factory farming.

00:38:21.000 They were feeding them antibiotics, not because they had an infection, but because it made them bigger, right?

00:38:27.000 That's why they fed them antibiotics?

00:38:29.000 Oh, yeah.

00:38:29.000 So the FDA in 2017, you didn't know about this?

00:38:32.000 I thought it was as a reaction to the issues that they were having by eating corn.

00:38:38.000 Well, I'm sure some factory farmers were doing it for that. 0.98

00:38:43.000 But by and large, there was a huge effect.

00:38:47.000 If you gave a cattle or one of these animals antibiotics, it made them grow bigger.

00:38:53.000 I wonder why.

00:38:54.000 I don't know.

00:38:55.000 I honestly don't know.

00:38:56.000 But it was like causing antibiotic resistance was going through the roof because it was leaking into...

00:39:03.000 All the water supplies.

00:39:05.000 That is so scary to me.

00:39:07.000 Antibiotic resistance is so scary to me because I know several friends that have had MRSA infections and they are absolutely terrifying.

00:39:15.000 Because when you do get MRSA, like friends that have had staph infections and it got really bad, the doctors tell you, like, this is touch and go.

00:39:23.000 Like, you have to be in the hospital on an IV drip of antibiotics for...

00:39:28.000 I had a friend who was in there for weeks and he is a...

00:39:30.000 Young, healthy, black belt in jujitsu.

00:39:33.000 He got a MRSA infection on his knee.

00:39:35.000 They had to cut his knee open like a fish, like pull it to the side to drain it and like to constantly clean it.

00:39:42.000 It was horrific.

00:39:44.000 He almost died and he was in his 20s and he really healthy, really active, elite athlete.

00:39:51.000 Yeah, MRSA will take anyone down. 1.00

00:39:52.000 I agree.

00:39:54.000 That's scary.

00:39:55.000 And that's a direct result of antibiotics.

00:39:58.000 The use of antibiotics has created this strain of really potent staph.

00:40:04.000 And believe it or not, a lot of it was coming from this agricultural use of it.

00:40:09.000 Really?

00:40:10.000 And so the FDA shut that down.

00:40:12.000 They said in 2017, because of antibiotic resistance, if you're a factory farmer, whatever, you can't give your animal staph.

00:40:21.000 Antibiotics.

00:40:22.000 Unless it's prescribed by a veterinarian and they have an infection that you're trying.

00:40:28.000 Now, you might find people still doing it.

00:40:29.000 You can find veterinarians that'll give you anything, right?

00:40:33.000 But they put the kibosh on that.

00:40:36.000 So these animals, they were feeding them just to get them bigger, and it was causing strains of antibiotic-resistant staph or whatever it is?

00:40:46.000 Yeah.

00:40:46.000 Bacteria?

00:40:47.000 Yep.

00:40:47.000 Wow.

00:40:48.000 Yeah, so that's one good thing that since 2017, which isn't that long ago.

00:40:52.000 How was that making the jump to people?

00:40:55.000 I mean, it was just, it was getting into the water supplies.

00:40:58.000 You know, I think it was just causing these strains to become resistant.

00:41:02.000 And then the strains come to people.

00:41:04.000 I mean, you know, so imagine the amount of antibiotics to, like, just nationwide in the United States alone.

00:41:13.000 Like, how many they're using on all these.

00:41:15.000 And it was like chickens.

00:41:16.000 They were doing it for all these animals.

00:41:17.000 And they're only doing it to make them big.

00:41:19.000 That is wild.

00:41:21.000 And do we know why it makes them big?

00:41:23.000 I don't remember.

00:41:25.000 I think I looked into this years ago when I was into that whole thing.

00:41:30.000 I think there is a mechanism that's known, but I don't remember exactly what it is.

00:41:34.000 It probably has to do with microbiome composition.

00:41:36.000 Certain bacteria probably go away, and other ones are making you get the energy, because you can harvest energy better from certain bacteria in your gut.

00:41:48.000 So it probably has to do something with that, but I just don't remember the exact.

00:41:53.000 It's crazy though, right?

00:41:54.000 It's the scariest to me because I've had really healthy friends get taken down by it.

00:41:58.000 And you find out that the doctor says, hey, we don't know exactly if you're going to live.

00:42:03.000 Yeah, that's crazy.

00:42:05.000 So, like, I had a great uncle that, you know, just died of a staph infection.

00:42:09.000 Like, he went in for, you know, some kind of type 2 diabetes complication, like kidney or something, and got a staph infection while he was in there, and that's what ultimately took him down.

00:42:16.000 It's a scary thing.

00:42:18.000 It is.

00:42:18.000 There was a Nature paper published, like, literally right around, it was like a year and a half ago, and it was, like, titled something like, Some Medieval Treatment to, you know, Antibiotic Resistance or something.

00:42:32.000 And it was like all these components used in like chimchurri sauce, you know, where it's like garlic and basil and parsley.

00:42:39.000 And, you know, a lot of these plants do have antimicrobial activity.

00:42:44.000 Well, you talked about it, the issue that you had with staph that you actually fixed with using garlic on the actual infection.

00:42:52.000 This is a total anecdote, and I had never tested staph.

00:42:55.000 The actual abscess to know if it was actually MRSA. But my anecdote goes as this.

00:43:02.000 I came down with an abscess. 0.96

00:43:04.000 And the first time I had it, the first one was like, on my butt.

00:43:09.000 And that had to be like, they'd like removed it. 0.87

00:43:12.000 And there was like, like, a couple of inch hole, like it was like necrotic, like it was bad.

00:43:18.000 And so that healed.

00:43:20.000 But it's already been on my skin, you know, it travels around.

00:43:23.000 And so then I got it, like, in my pelvic region.

00:43:26.000 Is that what happens?

00:43:27.000 It's just once it's in your skin?

00:43:28.000 Well, we've got all this stuff, yeah.

00:43:30.000 Once you get one, like, even if it's not MRSA, whatever, you know, the staph, you know, staph caucasorarius, whatever it's called.

00:43:38.000 Yeah, it's all on your skin.

00:43:39.000 And I think it also depends a lot on, like, your immune system fighting it off and I got this in grad school.

00:43:45.000 I was under a tremendous amount of stress.

00:43:48.000 I was so stressed out.

00:43:49.000 I wasn't sleeping because I was just working, working, working, and stress big time.

00:43:57.000 I was getting sick a lot more often.

00:44:00.000 It was just a bad IBS, bad part.

00:44:03.000 Anyways, so then I got another abscess in a different region.

00:44:06.000 It was closer to my pelvic region.

00:44:09.000 They gave me some antibiotics orally and then also some of the stuff called like Muprocin, a topical antibiotic.

00:44:16.000 And, you know, it would go away and then come back.

00:44:21.000 And it did this.

00:44:22.000 I got antibiotics again.

00:44:22.000 I did this like twice.

00:44:24.000 And at that point, I was like, what the hell?

00:44:26.000 Like, this isn't working.

00:44:28.000 And I started looking into the literature on, okay, is there like a combination of things I can do to potentially help impact this, right?

00:44:36.000 And so, you know, you can find all sorts of things.

00:44:39.000 There's all sorts of compounds in various herbs and essential oils and things like that.

00:44:42.000 And so after doing a lot of reading, I'd come up with some of the major ones were garlic.

00:44:49.000 Garlic was both topical and oral.

00:44:52.000 I was also taking, like, oral vitamin C, like, once an hour to kind of help boost my immune system.

00:44:58.000 I don't know, you know, whether or not that did anything, but that was part of my, you know, protocol.

00:45:04.000 And then on topical, I put garlic.

00:45:08.000 So I would open up one of those garlic pills.

00:45:09.000 And then I did tea tree oil.

00:45:10.000 That was a big one that was showing to have an effect, particularly on MRSA. And so I was putting tea tree oil.

00:45:17.000 And then I was also taking grapefruit seed extract orally because that was shown to have an effect.

00:45:23.000 And I was taking EGCG. Which is, like, from green tea.

00:45:27.000 It also was shown to have, like, these are all, you know, studies in vitro showing it has an effect on MRSA. You know, grain of salt.

00:45:35.000 It's like, okay, in vitro, you put it on it, it's like, it kills it with a dose of X. Can you explain in vitro to people that it's just cell culture?

00:45:41.000 Yeah, so you basically put something in cells that are in a Petri dish, you know?

00:45:45.000 So it's hard to extrapolate Something like that to a human.

00:45:50.000 But I was desperate.

00:45:52.000 And I was taking this stuff, like the oral stuff, like the garlic and the grapefruit seed extract, and I was taking it every one to two hours.

00:46:01.000 Is there any benefit to taking fresh garlic versus taking it in a pill form?

00:46:05.000 Or even using it as, like you were saying, you took the capsules.

00:46:09.000 Would there be benefit in taking actual, real garlic?

00:46:13.000 Well, the garlic, real garlic is great, too.

00:46:15.000 Once this thing went away for good, I was like, oh, garlic is the bomb.

00:46:19.000 So I would eat garlic any time I would feel any sort of sick or anything like that.

00:46:23.000 But the oil is highly concentrated.

00:46:25.000 You know what I mean?

00:46:26.000 You're like smashing down all the oils from the garlic.

00:46:28.000 Yeah.

00:46:29.000 So a capsule?

00:46:31.000 It was a capsule with oil, garlic oil.

00:46:33.000 Oh, okay.

00:46:33.000 It's not powder.

00:46:34.000 Yeah, garlic oil.

00:46:35.000 No, it's not powder.

00:46:36.000 Yeah, it was garlic oil that I was doing at the time.

00:46:39.000 So you'd cut open the capsule and just put it on the abscess?

00:46:42.000 I would cut it open and I would put it on topically and it didn't smell good, along with the tea tree oil.

00:46:48.000 But I was determined.

00:46:50.000 I was like, I'm going to try this.

00:46:52.000 I kind of am that way.

00:46:54.000 When I try something, I'm like, I'm going to try it.

00:46:57.000 I'm going to really give it a shot.

00:46:58.000 I'm going to do it.

00:46:59.000 So I was like, yeah, I stink, whatever.

00:47:02.000 Deal with it.

00:47:03.000 And it worked.

00:47:05.000 How long did it take to clear up?

00:47:07.000 It was really quick.

00:47:08.000 I mean, I think my memory was something like two days.

00:47:11.000 For me to notice, like two days, it was like it pussed out.

00:47:15.000 So, like, the abscess, like, it, like, pussed out and, like, literally within, like, two days, I think.

00:47:22.000 Something like that, where it just, you know, instead of just being this abscess that's not coming to a head and hurts and...

00:47:30.000 I started getting a patch of folliculitis from jujitsu, which a lot of times people associate with staph.

00:47:38.000 When you see those little red bumps like where your hair follicle was on my leg.

00:47:42.000 And I got pretty sketched out by it because I've had staph in the past.

00:47:46.000 But I killed it with topical spray.

00:47:48.000 There's Defense Soap, which is a company that makes products specifically designed to prevent fungus infections for grapplers.

00:47:58.000 Ringworm and help prevent staph infection.

00:48:02.000 All their stuff has tea tree oil, eucalyptus oil.

00:48:05.000 It's all very healthy.

00:48:06.000 And they make a spray for specific issues like that when you have a topical irritation and something that's on the surface of your skin. 0.99

00:48:17.000 I managed to kill it, but I was nervous, because I've had staff twice, and I was like, oh, fuck, here it comes. 0.99

00:48:22.000 Right, and you know it could be serious. 1.00

00:48:25.000 It really could.

00:48:26.000 But I jumped on it quick, and within a few days, it was gone.

00:48:32.000 I've gotten folliculitis once.

00:48:35.000 I had when I was in grad school.

00:48:36.000 I was trying out that Indian threading of your eyebrows or whatever.

00:48:40.000 What?

00:48:41.000 Have you heard of this?

00:48:42.000 No.

00:48:42.000 Instead of plucking them with a tweezer, I've got these Italian eyebrows and they're thick.

00:48:47.000 How big do they get?

00:48:49.000 Um, it's been a while.

00:48:51.000 Do you go to uni?

00:48:51.000 No, no, I don't get the uni part, but it's like, it's like down on my eyelid.

00:48:57.000 So, um, uh, anyway, so yeah, I was in grad school and there was like an, uh, a woman from India.

00:49:04.000 Um, she was in my lab and, um, she was like, This is the best thing.

00:49:08.000 It's so much better than plucking them and whatever.

00:49:10.000 She convinced me to try it, right?

00:49:12.000 So I went to some place and they do this thread and they get the hair and do this thing where they put it around the hair for hair and pull it out.

00:49:22.000 And it's supposed to be...

00:49:23.000 I don't know what all that is.

00:49:24.000 How's that better than plucking?

00:49:26.000 You're plucking...

00:49:26.000 They get it at the root more and they get...

00:49:29.000 I don't know.

00:49:30.000 Whatever. 1.00

00:49:31.000 I got fucked I got folliculitis. 0.99

00:49:34.000 And it was like, I had a rash on my eyebrows. 0.99

00:49:37.000 Like, it was awful.

00:49:38.000 And of course, me and my teacher oil, like, especially at the time, after I was like, after I had like had that, you know, staph infection, whatever it was, go away.

00:49:47.000 It was like, teacher oil, anything, any bump, zit, whatever, teacher oil.

00:49:51.000 Right.

00:49:51.000 Now I'm actually, to be honest, and it did help, by the way, but...

00:49:54.000 There's these studies coming out with tea tree oil, like, causing, you know, like changing hormones and like estrogen mimicking.

00:50:02.000 And so now I'm kind of like, oh, not too much tea tree oil.

00:50:05.000 Estrogen mimicking meaning it'll elevate your estrogen?

00:50:08.000 Like mimicking the biological action of estrogen.

00:50:10.000 Oh, boy.

00:50:12.000 Have you heard of some of these guys getting gynomastica?

00:50:15.000 Yeah.

00:50:16.000 What's it called?

00:50:17.000 Gynomastica.

00:50:18.000 Yeah, gynomastica. 0.99

00:50:20.000 They get man boobs. 1.00

00:50:22.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:50:22.000 Well, I think there's some evidence linking crazy tea tree oil use to that, too. 0.98

00:50:30.000 How much teacher all of these guys use it?

00:50:33.000 I don't know, but this stuff, I mean, it gets into your system, too, you know?

00:50:38.000 So maybe, like, they're rubbing it all over their body?

00:50:40.000 I don't know what they're doing. 1.00

00:50:41.000 Fucking hippies. 1.00

00:50:43.000 They ruin everything. 1.00

00:50:46.000 Even good things.

00:50:47.000 Yeah.

00:50:47.000 So I've sort of...

00:50:50.000 Now it's like, okay, the tea tree oil comes out.

00:50:52.000 Like, if there's some little bump, it's like, okay, I get tea tree oil, but I'm not like...

00:50:55.000 I'm like crazy about it now.

00:50:57.000 Got it.

00:50:57.000 Yeah.

00:50:58.000 Makes sense.

00:50:58.000 So, you know.

00:50:59.000 Yeah.

00:51:00.000 I think gyno masca, though, is like pretty extreme.

00:51:02.000 I think when guys get it, it's usually...

00:51:05.000 If it's not from some sort of strange hormone imbalance, it's usually from using steroids.

00:51:09.000 Because they use steroids and they take so much testosterone that their body expresses...

00:51:14.000 I don't think it's just estrogen.

00:51:19.000 It's something else, too.

00:51:22.000 There was actually...

00:51:23.000 I was watching a video on it.

00:51:25.000 It is horrific when they remove it.

00:51:27.000 Oh my god.

00:51:28.000 It looks like the little thing from Alien that comes bursting out of your chest.

00:51:33.000 I thought it would just be fluid.

00:51:35.000 It's not fluid.

00:51:36.000 It's a mass.

00:51:38.000 It's a big, thick, meaty mass.

00:51:41.000 And there's videos of guys getting their gynomastica removed.

00:51:46.000 It's basically, like, there's a whole culture on YouTube of, like, these steroid guys, you know, that, like, show all the damage that they've done to their body through steroids, and one of them is guys that have had their boobs cut open to take out this gynomastica, and it's just these big,

00:52:03.000 pulpy-looking...

00:52:05.000 Pull it up, Jamie.

00:52:08.000 Trying not to.

00:52:09.000 How dare you?

00:52:11.000 You need to see it.

00:52:12.000 Because it's crazy.

00:52:13.000 Because people need to see it.

00:52:14.000 Is it fat?

00:52:16.000 I don't know.

00:52:17.000 It's some kind of breast tissue. 0.55

00:52:20.000 But it's breast tissue like a boob. 1.00

00:52:23.000 I've seen them before.

00:52:25.000 They look like it, for sure.

00:52:27.000 There was a guy who fought in the UFC way back in the day who had it.

00:52:31.000 And he had it bad.

00:52:32.000 And then he got it removed and then he looked normal after it. 0.96

00:52:35.000 But I mean, he had like boobs. 0.60

00:52:38.000 That's the only one I could find with the thing. 0.91

00:52:40.000 Yeah, but that is nothing.

00:52:42.000 That's just holes.

00:52:44.000 If you could show a video of them, see that stuff on the right-hand corner?

00:52:48.000 That's it.

00:52:48.000 That's what it looks like.

00:52:50.000 Ooh.

00:52:50.000 Yeah, click on that.

00:52:51.000 Like, that's what it looks like.

00:52:52.000 It does look like fat.

00:52:53.000 It's like these giant glands.

00:52:57.000 Yeah, right there.

00:52:58.000 Gynomastica, huge glands.

00:52:59.000 That fell in the middle.

00:53:01.000 Oh, look at that. 0.99

00:53:02.000 I mean, these are huge things that they're pulling out of these guys' boobs. 1.00

00:53:07.000 Yeah. 0.97

00:53:10.000 It's not just estrogen that's causing this.

00:53:15.000 It's something else.

00:53:16.000 And I don't think, by the way, I don't think tea tree oil is the only thing causing it either, to be clear.

00:53:21.000 Well, especially something like that.

00:53:22.000 I'm pretty sure that is, unless it's like coming from some strange, you know, weird hormonal imbalance, just a natural irregularity of the body, it's coming from steroids.

00:53:35.000 It's very common with guys who've done a lot of steroids.

00:53:37.000 Wow.

00:53:38.000 They have to do a lot, though.

00:53:39.000 You know, you get crazy and then these things grow. 0.98

00:53:43.000 They are boobs. 0.99

00:53:44.000 Yeah, they definitely are. 0.95

00:53:46.000 Lavender oil is another one that's been shown to have the hormone-disrupting effects.

00:53:51.000 That makes sense because that's like associated with ladies. 1.00

00:53:54.000 Like ladies putting the lavender oil on, right? 1.00

00:53:56.000 All I know is I've...

00:53:58.000 Well, lavender, I mean, it kind of has this calming effect, you know, like aromatherapy, you know, you breathe it in and it's...

00:54:05.000 Do you ever do put lavender oil in the sauna when you're in there?

00:54:09.000 No.

00:54:09.000 I do do eucalyptus, though.

00:54:11.000 Yeah.

00:54:12.000 Well, that's like helps you breathe, but there's the lavender...

00:54:14.000 Does it help?

00:54:15.000 Well, I mean, it seems like it, yeah.

00:54:19.000 Yeah.

00:54:20.000 I have become absolutely obsessed with sauna use over the last, I guess it started because of you, and then over the last, through the pandemic, the last year and a half or so, I'm in every day.

00:54:35.000 Every single day.

00:54:36.000 It's very rare that I take a day off.

00:54:38.000 I mean, I have to be wrecked to take a day off of sauna use. 0.99

00:54:41.000 Damn, you're getting all the benefits. 0.99

00:54:43.000 Even when I come home at night, like last night I had a show and I'm out with all these fucking weirdos with no masks on. 1.00

00:54:49.000 So I'm like, as soon as I got home, I cooked myself. 0.98

00:54:52.000 I cooked myself like 15-20 minutes at 185 degrees and just deep breaths.

00:54:58.000 There's that paper that I sent you about COVID-19 and the therapeutic intervention of using sauna and this idea that When your body heats up like that, you're trying to kill off a virus when you're sick.

00:55:16.000 If you're sick with a viral infection and your body gets a fever, your body's trying to kill that.

00:55:22.000 And this idea, this paper is exploring the use of sauna to intervene, to stop it from ever infecting your body, both through your nasal passages, through your airway, and also just through the actual heating of the body.

00:55:38.000 Right, yeah.

00:55:39.000 There's a fever response that is induced when you have an infection, and part of that is to help fight off the pathogen as well.

00:55:49.000 Because the pathogen can only exist in a certain temperature range, right?

00:55:52.000 Partly, yeah.

00:55:53.000 I mean, there's multiple mechanisms.

00:55:55.000 It also activates heat shock proteins, and heat shock proteins have a role in your immune system response and how your immune system responds.

00:56:03.000 So it plays a role, particularly in innate immunity.

00:56:08.000 Which is the kind of immunity that is important when you first see a pathogen that you've never seen before.

00:56:14.000 This isn't like an antibody type of response.

00:56:16.000 It's like killing of it, you know, before that.

00:56:19.000 But there's interesting evidence, I'm sure we've talked about this, coming out of Dr. Jari Lalkonen's lab in Finland.

00:56:27.000 This was a few years ago, where he looked at sauna use and, like, incidence of pneumonia.

00:56:35.000 And people that like, so in Finland, saunas are ubiquitous.

00:56:38.000 You know, most people have one at their house.

00:56:39.000 Most people use it at least once, you know, at least once a week.

00:56:43.000 But then you have people that are using it like two to three or four to seven.

00:56:46.000 And so he always kind of stratifies the data based on like frequency of use.

00:56:51.000 And he found that people that use the sauna four to seven times a week were 40% less likely to get pneumonia.

00:56:57.000 And this was after like correcting for all sorts of like other lung diseases and other health factors and Exercise and all that stuff.

00:57:05.000 At the end of the day, it's a correlative study, right?

00:57:08.000 But I thought that was interesting because there's also all these other studies that have been done in the 80s looking at the effects of the sauna on the lung function and helping with a variety of factors of lung function.

00:57:24.000 It's interesting.

00:57:25.000 There's probably lots of things going on as well.

00:57:29.000 And as I just gave you, my paper today was published with my co-author, Teresa Johnson, in the journal Experimental Gerontology.

00:57:39.000 We argue...

00:57:41.000 Yeah.

00:57:58.000 You know, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, heart disease, respiratory problems, all that stuff.

00:58:03.000 And so we argue that sauna use should be up there with things like exercise and good sleep and good diet, you know, things that are known to improve your quality of life.

00:58:14.000 There's just tons of evidence, things that we've talked about before, but, you know, talking about the cardiovascular disease improvements, how sauna...

00:58:21.000 One of the things I'm most excited about, like I've been getting my mom in the sauna...

00:58:26.000 And she's been sedentary, you know, like, her whole life, basically.

00:58:29.000 She's overweight, and, like, there's no getting her on a Peloton. 0.99

00:58:34.000 There's no getting her to go for a jog.

00:58:36.000 Like, it's just not going to happen.

00:58:37.000 Maybe once, but, like, it's just not going to happen.

00:58:40.000 And so I'm trying to get her in the sauna because I'm trying to improve her health some way, right?

00:58:45.000 And It's a lot easier for people, at least I've noticed with my mom, who views it as a spa treatment.

00:58:54.000 She goes in there and puts some cold water on the hot rocks, and it's kind of like a steam room.

00:59:00.000 She feels like it's a spa.

00:59:01.000 But she's also getting the sauna-mimicking moderate cardiovascular exercise.

00:59:09.000 That's what it does, and we talk all about that in the paper.

00:59:12.000 But, you know, so people that are, like, sedentary and have been sedentary their whole life, and also people that are disabled.

00:59:21.000 Like, there are some people that can't go for a run.

00:59:23.000 There are people that can't even get on a Peloton.

00:59:25.000 Like, they're disabled, and they can't do aerobic exercise. 1.00

00:59:29.000 Like, this, to me, is, like...

00:59:32.000 A no-brainer.

00:59:33.000 Yeah.

00:59:33.000 A no-brainer.

00:59:34.000 I mean, granted, there are some contraindications, like certain, if you have certain, particularly certain heart disease risks, that could be a contraindication, meaning you shouldn't do it.

00:59:46.000 But by and large, it improves a lot of cardiovascular things.

00:59:50.000 Can you mitigate those risks by having a slightly lower temperature, like instead of going to 185, maybe going to 160 or something like that, where it's a more mild form of heat?

01:00:01.000 Right.

01:00:01.000 I don't know.

01:00:02.000 I know that like, to me, that would make sense.

01:00:05.000 And this was, you have to like discuss this with your physician.

01:00:07.000 But like, for example, people that have like arrhythmias, there could be a very mild contraindication with arrhythmias.

01:00:15.000 And so the question is, you know, Would a lower temperature, like 165, which is what I've been doing for my mom, like mostly because she's not adapted to the heat at all.

01:00:26.000 And so like, you have to adapt before you can like do 20 minutes at 185. You know, like it takes takes a while for people that aren't used to even raising their core body temperature when they're exercising, you know.

01:00:36.000 So again, it's mimicking a lot of the physiological aspects, including that core body temperature going up, you know, the blood flow changes going to your skin and sweating, heart rate, you know, your heart rate gets elevated while you're in the sauna, and then blood pressure goes down after.

01:00:53.000 Like, these things have been compared head to head.

01:00:54.000 So it does mimic moderate aerobic activity.

01:00:57.000 And it's, like, the only way that I'm able to get my mom in there.

01:01:00.000 And then there's, like, the brain benefits, you know.

01:01:06.000 People that are depressed, like my mom actually has, she's been diagnosed with major depressive disorder.

01:01:13.000 And you look at, she's got a variety of SNPs.

01:01:17.000 There are certain SNPs that she has that are consistent, like in the serotonin transporter and things like that.

01:01:23.000 You can look and see there's evidence that she has things that have been linked to major depressive disorder.

01:01:30.000 I mean, that's inflammation.

01:01:48.000 What they called whole body hyperthermia, which is basically, they were using this really expensive device to elevate people's core body temperature to like 101 degrees Fahrenheit.

01:01:58.000 I mean, they were doing a fever.

01:01:59.000 I mean, they were getting hot.

01:02:00.000 And they had a sham control.

01:02:02.000 People that were, they were elevating their core body temperature a little bit, so they thought they were getting the treatment, but they weren't.

01:02:09.000 So it was- How were they elevating the core body temperature?

01:02:13.000 It's called the heckle device.

01:02:14.000 It's like this crazy thing that's kind of infrared-ish, where it's doing it through what an infrared sauna would do, basically.

01:02:24.000 And so they did this in the people that were in the sham control group, which is kind of like the placebo in a way.

01:02:31.000 And so 70% of those people in that group actually thought they were getting the treatment.

01:02:34.000 So it was a wonderful placebo.

01:02:36.000 Because with anything depression, placebo effect is a very real thing.

01:02:40.000 And people know they're getting a treatment.

01:02:41.000 They're going to feel better.

01:02:43.000 Like, yeah, this works, you know?

01:02:44.000 So it's important to have that control.

01:02:47.000 And they showed just one, like, one exposure to this.

01:02:51.000 There was a huge antidepressant effect that lasted six weeks.

01:02:55.000 What?

01:02:56.000 One?

01:02:56.000 One session.

01:02:57.000 One session.

01:02:58.000 One session.

01:02:59.000 And the mechanism for this is completely unknown.

01:03:04.000 We talk, like, Teresa and I talk a little bit about this in our recent publication.

01:03:10.000 But...

01:03:11.000 It's also a topic page on my website.

01:03:13.000 It's Asana.

01:03:14.000 We have a 20-something page article that is a lot of this on the website.

01:03:19.000 But part of it could be there's a million things.

01:03:23.000 So here's the thing.

01:03:25.000 So Dr. Ashley Mason, she is at UCSF, and she specializes in non-pharmacological treatments for depression or sleep or And she actually trained with Dr. Charles Rezon, and she sort of carried on the torch.

01:03:38.000 And I'm collaborating with her now, which is really cool, on a clinical trial where she's basically taken...

01:03:46.000 Forget that device.

01:03:48.000 It's like $50,000.

01:03:49.000 It's like all this FDA tape to get it and use it.

01:03:52.000 So she's found a way to basically... 0.96

01:03:56.000 Get an infrared sauna where people are laying in this like tent with their head out.

01:04:01.000 And they're in there for a long time.

01:04:05.000 And they're measuring their rectal temperature and making sure they get up to like 101. And it's like a silicone probe.

01:04:12.000 It's really easy to, you know, it's not like uncomfortable.

01:04:14.000 But these people are getting hot.

01:04:15.000 They're getting so hot that, like, you know, technicians are having to, like, cool them down with wet towels, you know, and, like, while they're in this thing.

01:04:22.000 Because they have to be in to that degree where they're getting, like, a fever.

01:04:25.000 So they're cooling their head?

01:04:26.000 Is that what they're doing?

01:04:26.000 They're cooling their head.

01:04:27.000 Mm-hmm.

01:04:28.000 Yeah.

01:04:28.000 But she's done a proof of principle study on people that are not depressed that shows that it's, like, not dangerous, basically.

01:04:34.000 It's not dangerous.

01:04:35.000 People will do it.

01:04:36.000 And that's kind of, like, you have to, like, show that before you can, like, go on to the next step and use it as a potential clinical treatment for depression.

01:04:43.000 So now the study that she's going to be starting any day, which I'm collaborating with her on, is she's going to be recruiting clinically depressed patients or participants and giving them this treatment.

01:04:58.000 And it's going to be a dose escalation.

01:05:00.000 In other words, she's going to try to do it at least eight weeks. 0.96

01:05:03.000 I mentioned the first one was one time.

01:05:05.000 So once a week for eight weeks.

01:05:07.000 So they're going to be, you know, see if they can even do this, like if they can handle it, right?

01:05:12.000 And she's going to combine it with cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, because that's a known treatment to help with depression.

01:05:19.000 And you can't start any study without giving like a treatment that's known to work because it's like unethical.

01:05:25.000 But what I'm excited about is the biomarkers that we're going to measure, like, you know, brain drive neurotrophic factor.

01:05:32.000 That's been shown to play a role in depression.

01:05:34.000 And it's one of the major things, like exercise increases it, and there's been studies showing hot baths increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF. So, you know, it's like, well, let's see if the sauna's doing that.

01:05:46.000 Like, that would be one potential mechanism.

01:05:48.000 And then there's a variety of other, we'll mention, heat shock proteins.

01:05:51.000 They've been shown to play a role in mood and animal studies, and a variety of inflammatory biomarkers.

01:05:58.000 Because what was interesting about that pilot study by Dr. Charles Rezon was that he found the people that had the most robust antidepressant effect had higher levels of something called IL-6.

01:06:09.000 IL-6 is a cytokine.

01:06:11.000 It's kind of often referred to as like a Janus cytokine because it's like both pro and anti-inflammatory.

01:06:17.000 It has like both effects.

01:06:18.000 It's something that is, you know, elevated when you exercise.

01:06:22.000 And, you know, there's a robust anti-inflammatory response in some cases, like IL-10 and things that are anti-inflammatory.

01:06:28.000 Anyways, he found people that had the highest levels of IL-6 tend to have the most robust effects of the sauna.

01:06:36.000 So, a variety of interesting things.

01:06:39.000 Super exciting because, like, you know, like, if this could be a potential treatment, getting people – and, like, I know you and I have talked about this, like, probably a million times, but, like, getting depressed people to go exercise – Like, it's not easy.

01:06:52.000 Right.

01:06:53.000 Like, they don't have that motivation.

01:06:54.000 Yeah, I've experienced that many times.

01:06:56.000 So, like, imagine if you could just put them in a sauna.

01:07:00.000 Right?

01:07:00.000 And it would have a similar effect.

01:07:03.000 In theory, we don't know yet.

01:07:04.000 I mean, you know...

01:07:06.000 What do you think your body temperature is getting to if you're at like what I do, which is like 185 degrees for 20-25 minutes?

01:07:14.000 It gets rough, especially at 25 minutes.

01:07:19.000 The last five minutes are really hard.

01:07:21.000 Yeah, so I asked Dr. Mason about this because she's like gone around into different like banyas and stuff in San Francisco and like had her friends like trying to like get the rectal thermometer and see like, do this or do that. 0.92

01:07:35.000 The problem is like, you know.

01:07:37.000 People don't trust you at a sauna with a rectal thermometer.

01:07:41.000 They're like, hey.

01:07:42.000 Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

01:07:45.000 But she said she couldn't get There was nothing out there as intense as that.

01:07:52.000 As intense as what they're doing?

01:07:54.000 No, as intense as what you're saying.

01:07:57.000 It's kind of what I do.

01:07:58.000 So I do like 185, like 15 to 20 minutes, depending on if I exercise.

01:08:03.000 You've done it at Laird Hamilton's house, right?

01:08:05.000 Not yet.

01:08:06.000 We've been planning and planning and planning.

01:08:09.000 I've done it at Rick Rubin's.

01:08:11.000 But his sauna was like 200 and something.

01:08:16.000 And then he had this ice bath outside of the sauna.

01:08:20.000 And we were doing back and forth.

01:08:23.000 And...

01:08:24.000 Like, that's the closest thing you're going to get to a psychedelic experience without doing psychedelics, in my opinion.

01:08:30.000 It's, like, crazy!

01:08:32.000 It changes your, I mean, have you done that before?

01:08:34.000 Back and forth, yeah.

01:08:35.000 Yeah, like, intent.

01:08:37.000 You did?

01:08:37.000 Yeah, I have an ice bath.

01:08:39.000 I have an ice bath right next to the sauna.

01:08:41.000 I do it every day.

01:08:42.000 What do you think?

01:08:43.000 It makes your whole head dizzy.

01:08:46.000 It does.

01:08:46.000 You go shaking back and forth.

01:08:48.000 It does.

01:08:48.000 One thing I found is I can't stay in the ice bath as long after I've gotten out of the sauna, which is really odd because I almost feel like I'm going to pass out.

01:08:58.000 When I get to three minutes in the ice bath after 20 plus minutes in the sauna, my vision is shaky.

01:09:05.000 Okay, so here's my anecdotal story.

01:09:10.000 So I was doing...

01:09:11.000 I mean, I was scared of ice baths for a long time, like for months because of this.

01:09:14.000 So back in the winter, before we had a cold plunge, we were using the pool because the pool was cold.

01:09:21.000 It was like, you know, 50 degrees.

01:09:23.000 Yeah, you know, which is...

01:09:25.000 Cold.

01:09:25.000 It's cold.

01:09:26.000 It's not ice bath cold.

01:09:27.000 That's insane, but it's cold.

01:09:32.000 So this time, I was in the jacuzzi.

01:09:35.000 I was in the jacuzzi for like 20 minutes, maybe 30. I was getting my heat stress on, right?

01:09:40.000 And then I went into the pool.

01:09:44.000 I had my Simon and Garfield on.

01:09:47.000 I was singing.

01:09:48.000 I was trying to stay in there.

01:09:48.000 It was cold.

01:09:50.000 And I was burning.

01:09:51.000 It was burning.

01:09:52.000 But I was in there for just not more than five minutes.

01:09:56.000 And all of a sudden, I started to get really blinky and dizzy.

01:10:01.000 And I was like, ooh, I don't feel good.

01:10:03.000 So I got out of the pool.

01:10:05.000 And I got some kind of vertigo or something.

01:10:10.000 I couldn't stand.

01:10:11.000 I had to go down to the pool.

01:10:12.000 I felt like I was dying.

01:10:13.000 Like I had to go down low to the ground.

01:10:16.000 And Dan was assuring me, it's okay.

01:10:19.000 It's okay.

01:10:21.000 And this lasted a couple of minutes.

01:10:25.000 I mean, I was terrified.

01:10:27.000 I was really terrified.

01:10:29.000 I guess it was kind of a vertigo.

01:10:30.000 I didn't know what was up or down.

01:10:32.000 I couldn't stand because it was like...

01:10:34.000 And I felt like my blood pressure maybe was really low.

01:10:37.000 I don't know what caused that.

01:10:39.000 I don't know if I had gotten cold water in my ear.

01:10:43.000 You can read some anecdotal stories about cold water swimmers that wear some kind of earplugs because it can give them vertigo.

01:10:51.000 I don't know.

01:10:51.000 They develop like bone matter in there.

01:10:54.000 Do you know that?

01:10:55.000 No.

01:10:55.000 Like surfer's ear?

01:10:56.000 Yeah, a lot of them have to get operations on it.

01:11:00.000 It's crazy.

01:11:01.000 Yeah, there's something that happens to the inner ear.

01:11:04.000 Like, find out if you can find what that is.

01:11:05.000 It's called surfer's ear.

01:11:07.000 A friend of mine got it.

01:11:08.000 Does that affect the balance and stuff?

01:11:09.000 Does that give you vertigo?

01:11:11.000 I think so.

01:11:11.000 I'm not sure.

01:11:12.000 I've never surfed.

01:11:13.000 But I know that there's some sort of like bony thing.

01:11:17.000 Oh, here we go.

01:11:18.000 Surfer's ear is a condition where the bone of the ear canal develops multiple bony growths called exostosis.

01:11:29.000 Over time, this can eventually cause a partial or complete blockage of the ear canal.

01:11:33.000 The condition is primarily caused by prolonged exposure to cold water or wind.

01:11:38.000 Interesting.

01:11:39.000 Yeah.

01:11:39.000 So, like, you see those little weird bony growths in the inside of the ear.

01:11:43.000 It's almost like your fucking skull's trying to protect you. 1.00

01:11:47.000 Oh, that is so nasty. 1.00

01:11:48.000 Inside of ears are so gross.

01:11:50.000 I got a little...

01:11:52.000 A thing I bought on Amazon, it's a camera that's attached to an ear cleaner, and you have an app on your phone, and you can actually stick this thing in your ear, and you can see the inside of your ear.

01:12:05.000 It's wild.

01:12:06.000 It's wild.

01:12:08.000 I wore earplugs on the plane yesterday, and when I took them out, I was disgusted by the earplugs.

01:12:15.000 I don't know if I want to see more in there, you know?

01:12:18.000 Yeah, you can clean it out, though.

01:12:20.000 Yeah, I know.

01:12:21.000 I've got really small ear canals, and I, like, get problems with that.

01:12:26.000 And also, like, earplugs hurt me because my ear canals are so small I have to, like, get the, like, baby ones or, like, I need to try to get the custom-made ones because, like, I can't wear that.

01:12:35.000 Like, it hurts.

01:12:36.000 Like, I can't sleep with them because it hurts.

01:12:38.000 I wore ear guards all throughout my years doing jiu-jitsu.

01:12:41.000 Pretty much every time I trained.

01:12:43.000 I have very little cauliflower.

01:12:44.000 I have like a tiny couple of little pieces. 0.99

01:12:46.000 But I have friends whose ears are fucking mangled. 0.98

01:12:49.000 And they love it because it makes them look like a badass. 0.99

01:12:51.000 It's a jiu-jitsu thing.

01:12:54.000 And wrestlers.

01:12:55.000 It's a wrestler thing too. 0.99

01:12:56.000 It's almost like a badge of honor to have really fucked up ears. 0.97

01:13:00.000 But I have friends that can't... 0.91

01:13:02.000 AirPods, like Apple ones, they don't fit in there.

01:13:07.000 They can't even go in.

01:13:08.000 Their ear hole's so small. 0.99

01:13:10.000 I'm like, what can you really hear with those goofy-ass mangled ears? 0.85

01:13:14.000 Because if you take your ears and you just go like this, and then you talk, and then I'm folding my ear, and then go like that and open it, it's very different between what it sounds like, like this, and what it sounds like, like this. 0.66

01:13:28.000 So they're like, their whole life is like, the reason why your ear's shaped like that is so that you can kind of capture sound, right?

01:13:36.000 It's good.

01:13:37.000 It makes your ear work better.

01:13:40.000 Their ear is constantly clogged.

01:13:42.000 On the flip side of that, they're probably less likely to get the noise-induced hearing damage that happens with old age.

01:13:48.000 But they can't hear anyway, so then, you know.

01:13:50.000 Do you know if any of those guys have tried out the jaw conduction headphones that don't go in your ear?

01:13:57.000 Where do they go?

01:13:59.000 They go around your head, sort of.

01:14:01.000 They just don't go in.

01:14:02.000 You've probably seen them, but you may have never tried it.

01:14:06.000 I've never tried it.

01:14:06.000 It's a very strange feeling when you test it out.

01:14:09.000 You use those?

01:14:10.000 That one CES thing, I tried it out there just because it was new at then.

01:14:13.000 It was like 2017. Did you like it?

01:14:16.000 It was weird.

01:14:17.000 So you hear music, like, clearly?

01:14:19.000 It just vibrates on your bones instead of into your ear.

01:14:22.000 It vibrates on your bone and gets into your head, which is like, you know, if you're in the shower, you do exactly what you were just doing.

01:14:27.000 You can still hear the rain hitting your skull, it's just your hearing, or the water, I'm sorry, it's just different.

01:14:33.000 But I'm way curious onto someone who has that ear problem, if this creates a better experience, or if it's just like, yeah, I can hear it now, finally.

01:14:41.000 The smart guys get it operated on.

01:14:44.000 You really should drain it right away.

01:14:47.000 But I know quite a few friends who've had their ears operated on, where they literally fillet your ear and then they cut out all the calcified blood, which is what it is, right?

01:14:59.000 It's like blood pools up in the tissue of your ear and it becomes calcified.

01:15:04.000 Wow.

01:15:05.000 And then they have to cut that out.

01:15:05.000 Now I'm learning new things.

01:15:07.000 You didn't know about cauliflower ear?

01:15:09.000 Not really, no, I didn't.

01:15:10.000 Show her photos of cauliflower ear.

01:15:14.000 Just what it looks like.

01:15:16.000 Just cauliflower ear.

01:15:17.000 Because it's nasty.

01:15:20.000 80% of my friends from Jiu Jitsu have it.

01:15:24.000 That's crazy.

01:15:24.000 Yeah, they all have it.

01:15:25.000 That's what it looks like.

01:15:26.000 Look at those ears.

01:15:29.000 Look at his ears.

01:15:30.000 Wow.

01:15:30.000 Yeah.

01:15:32.000 That's Khabib Nurmagomedov.

01:15:34.000 One of the greatest, if not the greatest of all time.

01:15:36.000 Randy Couture.

01:15:37.000 His ears are mangled.

01:15:38.000 Look at his ears. 0.99

01:15:41.000 That's so disgusting. 0.99

01:15:42.000 Yeah, that's all hard. 0.96

01:15:44.000 That's like a rock, too.

01:15:45.000 The thing about that is it's calcium.

01:15:47.000 So the inside of it is...

01:15:49.000 How can you hear anything with that ear?

01:15:50.000 You don't hear much.

01:15:51.000 You don't hear much.

01:15:52.000 Yeah.

01:15:53.000 Yeah.

01:15:54.000 Look at that one.

01:15:56.000 Is there balance off or anything like that?

01:15:58.000 I don't think so because it's not really an inner ear issue, but the outer ear is just horrific.

01:16:08.000 It's pretty gross.

01:16:09.000 And so what you should do, what a lot of guys do is they'll get a syringe and right after it happens, like literally I've seen guys do this at the gym where they have a buddy stick a syringe in their ear and suck the pus and blood out like at the gym.

01:16:25.000 You know, they just have this thing and pull it.

01:16:27.000 Like see if you can find a video of a guy.

01:16:30.000 Yeah.

01:16:32.000 Because it's amazing how much fluid comes out of a cauliflower ear.

01:16:39.000 This is like the Fear Factor Joe coming out here.

01:16:42.000 So this guy's doing it to himself.

01:16:46.000 So he's pulled out that much blood.

01:16:50.000 Okay.

01:16:51.000 And so he's pulling this.

01:16:53.000 So he sticks it in there.

01:16:54.000 And once you get it in there, you really should go low.

01:16:58.000 He's going high, but you really should go low so you get all of it in there.

01:17:02.000 And then see how it sucks it out and drains it?

01:17:05.000 Now look at all the blood that's in his syringe.

01:17:08.000 That is all stuff that would have calcified.

01:17:12.000 So most guys like it.

01:17:15.000 Because it's like, let everybody know, oh, he's been training.

01:17:17.000 Look, his ears is badass.

01:17:19.000 Wow. 1.00

01:17:20.000 I think it's dumb. 0.99

01:17:21.000 That's crazy. 0.99

01:17:21.000 Totally. 0.99

01:17:22.000 I only have a couple.

01:17:23.000 I have a little bit of it here and some other spots where it calcified, but it's very small.

01:17:30.000 Good thing you were wearing those ear protectors.

01:17:31.000 Yeah, they're annoying.

01:17:33.000 They get in the way. 0.99

01:17:34.000 Like these things, they're under your chin, they're on your ears, but it just keeps your ears from getting fucked up. 0.98

01:17:38.000 Right. 0.92

01:17:38.000 I mean, it's annoying to wear a helmet when you're like riding a bike, but it's protecting your head. 0.92

01:17:42.000 I mean, you know. 0.97

01:17:43.000 So what happens to me is I can go in the ice bath and I thought I went in the ice bath once for 20 minutes, and I thought I had fucked myself up. 0.96

01:17:55.000 I thought I broke something.

01:17:56.000 Because I went in afterwards, and I was at the three minute mark, my visual field was shaky.

01:18:05.000 Almost like I was really drunk.

01:18:07.000 And I was like, this is not good.

01:18:09.000 Let me get out of here. 0.99

01:18:09.000 But I realized that that's actually just coming from the sauna. 0.99

01:18:13.000 So going from the sauna to the ice bath is very shocking.

01:18:19.000 It's probably good for you overall, but it does this weird thing where everything feels shaky and back and forth and weird.

01:18:28.000 But if I just go straight in there, it doesn't do that.

01:18:32.000 I can just go straight in there and then I'm fine.

01:18:34.000 So you took the words out of my mouth.

01:18:36.000 So that was like, I was trying to get to the bottom of this.

01:18:39.000 I had been in the jacuzzi for almost 30 minutes, and I was heat-stressing myself.

01:18:44.000 But I was still terrified to get any cold, because it was so scary.

01:18:50.000 So I didn't do any cold at all.

01:18:52.000 And now, what I do is, I just do, if I'm going to do the cold, like I did a seven-day challenge recently, where I just get in.

01:19:00.000 Dan does this thing like he gets in we keep it like 49 degrees Fahrenheit and he gets in for like 12 minutes I mean he's just in there like he loves it He does it like first thing in the morning.

01:19:09.000 Sometimes he does it before bed helps him sleep I Kid like I'm like in there like one minute and I'm like cuz I'm just not adapted You know like I'm not I'm not adapted and I don't have as much brown adipose tissue You know which you know is a good thing if you but you lose it pretty quick like Dan didn't do it for a while and I think?

01:19:48.000 Vasoconstriction happens.

01:19:49.000 Like, it's the opposite.

01:19:49.000 So you're going from, like, dilation to constriction, dilation to constriction.

01:19:53.000 And, like, you know, a lot of what regulates that is, you know, norepinephrine, which is a hormone and also a neurotransmitter, depending on if you're releasing it, you know.

01:20:02.000 Um, if it's being released in the plasma versus in the brain, but part of what it does is cause vasoconstriction.

01:20:08.000 And it's, you know, there's just not enough research that has been done on going from the hot to the cold and certainly not going back and forth.

01:20:18.000 But in Finland, you know, like at least 10% of the population there of the people that are using saunas do that.

01:20:24.000 Like they do it frequently.

01:20:25.000 Not everyone does it, but like a good percentage of people do it.

01:20:28.000 You know, like they have gone over to Finland and done it.

01:20:31.000 Um, But, you know, so there's just not a lot of evidence.

01:20:35.000 And, you know, on the one hand, like, you can feel really good, but, like, there's an amount of stress that, I mean, maybe it's just something from going from the hot to the cold and regulates your blood pressure, right?

01:20:47.000 I mean, I don't know.

01:20:51.000 So now I don't do the cold after my sauna because of that.

01:20:56.000 I've just been scared.

01:20:57.000 I do it, but I just do it for a minute.

01:21:00.000 That's how I do it.

01:21:01.000 I did it for three minutes yesterday.

01:21:04.000 That was a long one for me.

01:21:06.000 Generally, no, two days ago.

01:21:08.000 Yesterday I did a minute.

01:21:09.000 I'd like a minute.

01:21:10.000 A minute is what I like because I get so hot in there.

01:21:13.000 And a minute cools me off and I get a little weirded out, but not crazy.

01:21:19.000 But when I did three minutes the other day, at the third minute, I don't like the way I feel.

01:21:24.000 I just feel like, I gotta get out of here.

01:21:26.000 It just feels like, I don't know if I'm gonna black out.

01:21:31.000 Which sounds crazy.

01:21:32.000 No, totally.

01:21:33.000 But when I did 20 minutes, I did 20 minutes at 33 degrees.

01:21:38.000 Without any hot?

01:21:39.000 No hot.

01:21:40.000 Never felt like I was going to black out.

01:21:42.000 It was just really cold.

01:21:43.000 That's interesting.

01:21:44.000 My visual field was completely stable.

01:21:48.000 You didn't have that blinky stuff.

01:21:50.000 None of it.

01:21:50.000 But then coming out of the sauna, it's super shaky.

01:21:54.000 I had the blinky stuff.

01:21:55.000 Yeah, I had that.

01:21:56.000 It's like I'm drunk.

01:21:57.000 Totally.

01:21:58.000 In my case, it was pretty severe.

01:22:01.000 I felt like I was dying, and it was very scary.

01:22:03.000 Well, mine was a little weird, too.

01:22:05.000 The first time I did three minutes after the sauna, I was thinking, I think I broke myself when I did 20 minutes. 0.61

01:22:13.000 I was like, maybe I really fucked myself up. 0.64

01:22:15.000 Maybe that's not good. 0.94

01:22:16.000 But then I realized, no, what it was is I did 20 minutes after a workout, but I wasn't that heated up.

01:22:23.000 Like, I'm pretty sure that workout was just a weightlifting workout, which is not that bad.

01:22:28.000 You know, I sweat a little bit, but I don't, it's not like, the real ones are like kickboxing workouts.

01:22:33.000 When I do a kick, like I'll do 10 rounds on the bag.

01:22:37.000 And then when I'm done, I'm drenched with sweat.

01:22:40.000 I mean, just my t-shirt is completely soaked.

01:22:43.000 My underwear is soaked.

01:22:44.000 My shorts are soaked.

01:22:45.000 I'm really heated up.

01:22:46.000 And then I'll go in the cold.

01:22:47.000 It's rough.

01:22:48.000 But if I go in there just right now, like if I just sunk in there right now, my visual field would be fine.

01:22:55.000 Yeah.

01:22:55.000 But coming out of the sauna, it's a weird shock.

01:22:58.000 I don't know if it's good for you.

01:23:00.000 There needs to be research on it.

01:23:02.000 That's a problem.

01:23:03.000 You know, it is.

01:23:04.000 And so hopefully...

01:23:05.000 But everybody tells you you should do it.

01:23:09.000 Right?

01:23:09.000 They're like, oh yeah, you go back and forth from sauna to cold, sauna to cold.

01:23:12.000 But I think they're doing like 10 minutes and then a minute, 10 minutes.

01:23:17.000 I'm an extremist, right?

01:23:20.000 So I'm doing 25 minutes and I'm at 190 degrees sometimes.

01:23:25.000 That's intense.

01:23:25.000 It's a lot.

01:23:26.000 So I'm really hot when I get out where I'm like really barely hanging on.

01:23:31.000 And then I go plunge right into 33 degrees.

01:23:34.000 Well, here's the thing.

01:23:35.000 Right after the sauna, so one of the things that the sauna does is it lowers blood pressure.

01:23:41.000 So while you're doing it, your heart rate's elevated and your blood pressure goes up while you're doing it.

01:23:46.000 Same thing with exercise, but after.

01:23:48.000 Like, pretty immediate after.

01:23:51.000 Blood pressure goes down.

01:23:52.000 And this is like one of the reasons why it's so cardioprotective among others is that it really helps regulate blood pressure.

01:23:58.000 But if you think about it, if your blood pressure is already dipped down below baseline, you know, studies showing that's what happens with the sauna, then you get into something that's vasoconstricting.

01:24:09.000 Right?

01:24:10.000 I mean, like, it's got to be like a crash in blood pressure.

01:24:12.000 I mean, that is something I was thinking, and, you know, it's just we need evidence to show that.

01:24:19.000 We don't know what it is, but something's going on, and it's interesting that you've had the same effect that I did somewhat.

01:24:28.000 Mine was definitely scary.

01:24:30.000 Mine was a little scary.

01:24:31.000 Yeah.

01:24:32.000 I was like, because I'm by myself. 1.00

01:24:34.000 Because I like to work out by myself and while I'm doing this all by myself, I'm like, hey, don't die, stupid. 1.00

01:24:38.000 I know. 1.00

01:24:39.000 It's a dumb way to die. 0.99

01:24:40.000 Yeah, totally. 1.00

01:24:41.000 But one minute is great.

01:24:43.000 One minute feels really good.

01:24:45.000 Because one minute's easy.

01:24:46.000 I have no weirdness to the visual field.

01:24:49.000 I do one minute, I get out and then I get back in the sauna.

01:24:51.000 And the sauna at 190 degrees or whatever it is, it feels like nothing.

01:24:56.000 Like nothing.

01:24:56.000 It feels great and it feels really relaxing.

01:24:58.000 It feels nice.

01:24:59.000 And then I start to sweat again and then I get out.

01:25:02.000 I don't do too many...

01:25:03.000 I don't go...

01:25:04.000 I've done it a couple of times, but I like just one.

01:25:07.000 I just like sauna, ice bath, and then sauna until I heat up again, and then back to normal.

01:25:13.000 That sounds a little more doable.

01:25:16.000 Yeah, reasonable.

01:25:17.000 Exactly.

01:25:19.000 I personally like doing the cold without anything.

01:25:22.000 And for me, like, one minute, and I feel good.

01:25:26.000 I feel good after, could be the norepinephrine, it's been shown to go two-fold over.

01:25:30.000 I mean, I know a lot of people do it, like Dan does it, like, he really is into it, like, big time, like, just doing it alone.

01:25:38.000 And it's, like, helps him feel good, helps his mood.

01:25:40.000 I think it's addictive.

01:25:43.000 I think there's like a weird feeling, like a state change.

01:25:46.000 Because I feel that with the sauna as well.

01:25:49.000 I feel like when I get in, I'm like, oh, I get my fix.

01:25:52.000 I feel that when I climb in there.

01:25:54.000 Well, you make endorphins. 0.89

01:25:55.000 You're dumping out endorphins in the sauna.

01:25:57.000 Yeah.

01:25:59.000 It's also like I used to listen to a lot of books on tape in the sauna, but now primarily I do just nothing.

01:26:06.000 And it gives me like a time to think, like just a reset time to think and just relax.

01:26:12.000 And I'm enjoying that a lot.

01:26:15.000 I'm just enjoying the just the opportunity to do nothing.

01:26:19.000 Yeah.

01:26:20.000 And just sit and think.

01:26:21.000 That's that's what I sometimes I'll do a podcast because I never ever ever get to listen to anything if I don't but the majority of time for me I sit and like it's like my time it's like my my time to like reflect you know sometimes I'll even like rehearse things like a presentation or something and like I've done that for a long time I've done that since grad school listen to sets like comedy sets that I've done because it'll help me like tune in for the next one like I was doing that a lot In

01:26:51.000 the middle of the pandemic, because I wasn't doing much stand-up, and then I would have to do a show.

01:26:55.000 And so I would have to listen to old shows and sort of re-remember my material and get the beats and the rhythm.

01:27:02.000 You don't want to just go on stage completely cold.

01:27:06.000 You can look at your material.

01:27:07.000 That helps a little bit.

01:27:09.000 But I felt the best way is actually listening to a few sets, not even just one, but two or three.

01:27:15.000 Wow.

01:27:16.000 That's gotta be, I mean, you're so experienced now doing that, but like, I, like listening to myself, I used to do, I don't do it anymore.

01:27:23.000 I mean, time, you know, everyone's excuse, but, you know, when I go on a podcast, like when I, you know, this is my 10th time on this podcast.

01:27:32.000 Is it really?

01:27:32.000 Yeah.

01:27:33.000 It's my 10th.

01:27:33.000 So I would go back and listen to, this was back when I was first coming on, I'd listen to it.

01:27:39.000 Oh, it was so hard.

01:27:40.000 It was so hard.

01:27:41.000 But you learn about the mistakes, things you could do better.

01:27:46.000 It's really a way to improve in this aspect, your public speaking, and the way you communicate certain things and how you shouldn't communicate them maybe.

01:28:00.000 Not talking over someone.

01:28:02.000 That's a big one for me.

01:28:04.000 Unless you sit down and listen to yourself, it's not the same.

01:28:10.000 You're just not going to know.

01:28:12.000 That's why I make people wear earphones.

01:28:14.000 I suggest earphones.

01:28:16.000 You don't realize what it sounds like when you're talking over each other in a recording the way you do when you have earphones on.

01:28:25.000 If you have earphones on, you hear it exactly how people are going to hear it recorded.

01:28:30.000 But if you don't have earphones on, it just sounds like a normal conversation and people talk over each other all the time.

01:28:35.000 But you don't know how annoying it is to the person listening unless you have earphones on.

01:28:40.000 Because then your volume is the exact same volume as mine.

01:28:45.000 So if you're talking at a certain volume and I start talking too, it's just noise.

01:28:50.000 Whereas if you're over there and I don't have earphones on and you're talking, it's like your voice is lower and my voice is higher.

01:28:56.000 I feel like, well, people can hear me better.

01:28:58.000 No, they can't.

01:28:59.000 You're talking over that person. 1.00

01:29:01.000 It sounds like shit. 1.00

01:29:02.000 Such a good point. 1.00

01:29:03.000 And I probably should start doing that when I interview other people.

01:29:07.000 It's important.

01:29:08.000 You're absolutely right.

01:29:10.000 I can't tell when I don't have the earphones on and I get excited about something and it's like, let me just talk!

01:29:17.000 And yeah, hearing it at this level, you do.

01:29:22.000 You notice it.

01:29:23.000 The worst is if you have more than one guest.

01:29:26.000 So if I have two guests and they don't have headphones on, it's just madness.

01:29:30.000 Madness.

01:29:31.000 I used to do these Fight Companion podcasts, and there was four of us.

01:29:35.000 And I would do them.

01:29:36.000 Sometimes guys didn't want to wear headphones.

01:29:38.000 And it was just a talk-over thing.

01:29:40.000 They'd just talk over each other.

01:29:41.000 I'd be like, okay, we have to have headphones.

01:29:43.000 You have to, because you have to realize how bad this sounds.

01:29:46.000 Right.

01:29:47.000 Totally.

01:29:48.000 So what else have you discovered?

01:29:53.000 What new information about the sauna or what some new revelations?

01:29:59.000 I think mostly the new stuff is the mood, like the actual evidence on depression.

01:30:05.000 But it really, this review article is just a very comprehensive, you can't, like people don't write review articles that are really comprehensive in a field anymore because like there's no money, you know, no grant money in doing that.

01:30:20.000 It's like a lot of work.

01:30:22.000 And so you can't find a good review article that just covers everything, you know, like in a certain field, like with the sauna.

01:30:31.000 Like, there's review articles on the sauna and cardiovascular health, a lot of that, but this goes into the all-cause mortality, you know, the cardiovascular benefits.

01:30:41.000 It goes into the brain benefits and some mechanisms like, you know, the effects on the opioid system.

01:30:48.000 It goes into all these different mechanisms like heat shock proteins and, you know, how you – there's lots of cool figures in there too and how you can basically become heat adapted and some of that has to do with you make heat shock proteins at a lower temperature.

01:31:03.000 You know, it goes into like what special populations should – Be cautious when they go into the sauna and how long and what temperature and all that you get these benefits that are found in the literature.

01:31:13.000 It's just a really comprehensive body of literature, I think.

01:31:19.000 And so I'm just pretty excited about that.

01:31:23.000 It's also open access to public, so it's not paywalled.

01:31:26.000 So people can access this article.

01:31:29.000 They can also go to my website where I have the topic page on it, which is It's written a little...

01:31:34.000 This is a little different.

01:31:36.000 It's a little more scientific and we go into a little bit greater detail and it has wonderful figures.

01:31:40.000 But that's...

01:31:43.000 I think that's basically the gist of it.

01:31:46.000 It's not necessarily something new so much as like Very comprehensive and covering, oh, the muscle mass effects.

01:31:54.000 Like there's studies on sauna, you know, helping preserve muscle mass and how that we talk, we argue how that has effects for, you know, age-related sarcopenia.

01:32:03.000 And so, and that has to do with heat shock proteins as well.

01:32:06.000 So we just go into all of that.

01:32:08.000 I've noticed a benefit to my cardio.

01:32:10.000 I've noticed it in doing it on a regular basis that I just seem to have more gas when I'm working out.

01:32:17.000 I really think that there's got to be a connection because what I'm doing is I'm doing it after workouts.

01:32:23.000 Like today I did a kickboxing workout and then after the workout I do the rounds in the bag and then I sit in the sauna for 25 minutes.

01:32:31.000 And it's just...

01:32:31.000 It does seem like it's more work.

01:32:34.000 My heart is pounding, right?

01:32:37.000 I get in there, my heart's pounding.

01:32:39.000 I'm soaked with sweat.

01:32:40.000 And then your heart continues to beat high because you're in this really extreme heat environment.

01:32:48.000 Right.

01:32:49.000 You know, there are studies showing that if you combine exercise with the sauna, you have even more improvement in your cardiorespiratory fitness than if you exercise alone, which cardiorespiratory fitness is like, you know, it's a big indicator of your physical fitness and it's also an indicator of your overall health.

01:33:09.000 So, there's additive effects happening with, you know, doing aerobic exercise plus doing the sauna.

01:33:15.000 I also think there's, you know, potentially additive effects for weight training and doing the sauna as well, where you're basically, you know, you're not only, like, with weight training, you're increasing your muscle mass, right?

01:33:28.000 There's a growth of muscle hypertrophies happening.

01:33:31.000 But with the sauna, it's really good when you're not doing that work to basically increase your muscle mass.

01:33:40.000 It's preventing it from degrading, which is like a balance.

01:33:44.000 Now, there's a time after weight training where you should not get in the ice bath, right?

01:33:51.000 Right.

01:33:51.000 So we just actually released a 23-page article on cold exposure on our website, and it covers all this.

01:33:58.000 It covers things that we've been talking about, like norepinephrine, but it also covers this exercise training controversy, which I know you know I've talked about in the past, but Yeah.

01:34:09.000 More of this needs to be worked out, but it seems as though doing an ice bath immediately after strength training, resistance training workout, blunts some of the hypertrophy effects.

01:34:21.000 And when I say media, it's like five, ten minutes.

01:34:25.000 I personally think, and this is a theory, it's a hypothesis, this hasn't been shown, but because the cold Really blunts inflammation and it causes vasoconstriction.

01:34:39.000 Your immune molecules aren't traveling to the site like muscle as much as they would be.

01:34:46.000 So it's basically dampening inflammation.

01:34:49.000 Part of the resistance training causes an inflammatory response.

01:34:54.000 And this inflammatory response, including activation of macrophages, which are a type of immune cell, Is important for the increase in what's called IGF-1.

01:35:03.000 It's a growth factor that you make in your muscle in response to exercise.

01:35:06.000 It's important for, you know, protein synthesis and hypertrophy.

01:35:09.000 And so if you look at graphs of like the kinetics of IGF-1, it peaks.

01:35:16.000 After about an hour, after resistance training, and then, you know, starts to go back and normalize.

01:35:22.000 And so I personally think that if you do cold exposure within that hour after your resistance training, you might be blunting that inflammatory effect that's important for IGF-1.

01:35:35.000 Whereas the sauna would actually benefit you.

01:35:38.000 Yeah, the sauna doesn't do that.

01:35:39.000 The sauna doesn't...

01:35:40.000 The sauna actually, like exercise, it actually increases inflammation.

01:35:44.000 And, you know, in this paper, we argue that, like, there's a hormetic effect.

01:35:47.000 In other words, like, a little bit of stress is beneficial because then you have this anti-inflammatory effect.

01:35:53.000 It happens with exercise.

01:35:54.000 And some preliminary evidence, not, like, super big studies, suggests it also happens with sauna.

01:36:10.000 So should you, say if you train weights in the morning, should you wait until the afternoon to do an ice bath if you were going to do it?

01:36:17.000 Or should you do it on different days just to be safer?

01:36:22.000 I don't know.

01:36:23.000 To be honest, we don't have any evidence to know for sure.

01:36:25.000 I personally think that if you're waiting until later, like several hours later, you're already getting, you know, you're Anti-inflammatory effect has already been activated through the inflammation induced by exercise.

01:36:38.000 You know, so I can't see why doing the cold would then blunt that because you've already gone through it, you know?

01:36:46.000 But without actual data, it's hard to know, right?

01:36:49.000 It would be a hypothesis.

01:36:50.000 I would think that it would be okay, to be honest.

01:36:53.000 So, I mean, that's...

01:36:55.000 Well, through your discussions on this podcast and through many other discussions that have come out of that, I think there's been a giant rush, a giant change in the way people think of sauna and how many more people are using sauna.

01:37:11.000 I can't tell you how many of my friends who never had any interest in using sauna before are now like complete sauna junkies.

01:37:20.000 It's really interesting.

01:37:21.000 It's awesome.

01:37:22.000 I mean, like I said, I think...

01:37:24.000 That paper, I think it's improving healthspan.

01:37:26.000 And I think it's not just people that don't exercise.

01:37:30.000 I think it's like you're getting a benefit if you also exercise, if you're already physically active, like an additive benefit.

01:37:36.000 So that makes me happy.

01:37:39.000 Plus, I also think there's lots of effects on mood.

01:37:42.000 And, you know, but I also wish everyone could take the fish oil pill that we...

01:37:49.000 We talked about like, you know, if everyone took it, then we might have a crisis with the...

01:37:54.000 They're not going to take it.

01:37:55.000 You're never going to get everyone to take it.

01:37:57.000 Have you ever had your omega-3 index measured?

01:37:59.000 I have, yes.

01:38:01.000 Do you know the difference between what the omega-3 index is versus like just measuring your omega-3?

01:38:06.000 So omega-3 index specifically refers to measuring your omega-3 in red blood cells versus what most companies will do.

01:38:14.000 They'll look at like plasma phospholipid.

01:38:16.000 And the omega-3 index is important because it's a long-term marker for blood glucose.

01:38:21.000 Your red blood cells, you accumulate it in the cell membrane, and your red blood cells take 28 days before they turn over.

01:38:28.000 And so whereas if you were to have some sardines or whatever, and then go get your omega-3 levels measured...

01:38:35.000 It could be, it could skew the data such that like, oh, I've got great omega-3 levels, you know, because plasma phospholipids are kind of like the short term, like they're really responsive to your diet.

01:38:47.000 Whereas the actual, it's kind of like HbA1c, long term marker for blood glucose levels versus just measuring your blood glucose levels like, well, you could have just eaten, that's why they're high and So like your HbA1c is like that long-term marker.

01:39:00.000 So omega-3 index is kind of like that.

01:39:03.000 Dr. Bill Harris, and he had a collaborator, I forget his name, but they kind of co-invented this back in, gosh, early 2000s or something.

01:39:14.000 But he argues that The omega-3 index is, like, predictive for cardiovascular disease, like, as much, if not better than, like, cholesterol.

01:39:25.000 And he's had a couple of interesting studies that came out on mortality and looking at the omega-3 index.

01:39:33.000 So, like, there's one study that he did was published last April, so a few months ago, and it was, like, 17 different studies included, and he looked at the omega-3 index.

01:39:42.000 And he found that people that had an omega-3 index above 7% versus on the low end, which was less than 4%, they were 17% likely to die prematurely of all causes,

01:39:57.000 including accidents.

01:39:59.000 What?

01:40:00.000 Like, that's weird, right?

01:40:01.000 It wasn't just, like, age-related diseases.

01:40:03.000 It was all premature death causes.

01:40:07.000 Like, omega-3 is, like, making people not, like, take some kind of risk.

01:40:11.000 I don't know.

01:40:11.000 Anyways, I found that fascinating.

01:40:13.000 That was the first study.

01:40:14.000 Okay, so you're 17% likely.

01:40:16.000 So if you're in that high group versus low, so higher than 7% versus less than 4, you're also 21% less likely to die from cardiovascular disease.

01:40:26.000 So that was the first study that was interesting.

01:40:28.000 And the premature all-cause thing was what got me.

01:40:31.000 I was like, they're less likely to get in some kind of crazy accident that causes them to die.

01:40:37.000 So as you and I know, omega-3 affects the brain.

01:40:41.000 But the other study he just published last June or something, and it was a Framingham study.

01:40:47.000 Which is also a huge cohort.

01:40:49.000 And he looked at the omega-3 index and he found, again, people in the high end, like greater than 7%.

01:40:54.000 They had a life expectancy that was five years longer than people in the lower range, less than 4%.

01:41:04.000 And this was like after adjusting for all kinds of factors.

01:41:07.000 Now, remember, most people, they do these dietary questionnaires when they're looking at omega-3, like, how much fish do you eat?

01:41:13.000 Do you take supplements?

01:41:14.000 Like, They're measuring something.

01:41:16.000 Like, this is measured in your blood.

01:41:17.000 This is a long-term marker.

01:41:19.000 Like, this is real data, right?

01:41:23.000 So five-year increase in life expectancy, like, that's huge compared to people, like, you know, on the low end of the range.

01:41:32.000 And in fact, in Japan, you know what the average omega-3 index of people in the United States is?

01:41:38.000 Like, 5%.

01:41:40.000 So you had to be slightly more than that, 7%, greater than 7% to have the longevity benefits.

01:41:47.000 In Japan, their average is like 10% or more, omega-3.

01:41:51.000 And mine was 11.7%.

01:41:53.000 Because I take massive, I take, you know, four grams a day of fish oil, two grams of EPA, two grams of DHA. But anyways, you know, Japan has a five-year life expectancy increase over people in the United States where you're talking an average omega-3 index of 5% versus like 10. Interesting,

01:42:11.000 right?

01:42:12.000 Yeah.

01:42:12.000 Is there a plant-based version of omega-3s that's good?

01:42:20.000 Yeah, there is.

01:42:20.000 There's a microalgae.

01:42:22.000 So good point.

01:42:24.000 Like the plant omega-3, like alpha linoleic acid, ALA, is like in flaxseed and walnuts and I don't know, something else.

01:42:33.000 Soybeans.

01:42:34.000 But you have to convert it into EPA and DHA. And it's like that conversion is not very good.

01:42:39.000 It varies a lot from person to person.

01:42:41.000 And some of these benefits, like getting an omega-3 index of greater than 7%, you're never going to get that from ALA. Never?

01:42:51.000 No.

01:42:52.000 No way.

01:42:53.000 But you can take microalgae, and microalgae actually is the source of...

01:42:59.000 I think?

01:43:29.000 It has to be refrigerated.

01:43:31.000 Yeah, it definitely has to be refrigerated.

01:43:32.000 There's lots of oxidation that's possible from polyunsaturated fatty acids, which EPA and DHA are.

01:43:40.000 But a lot of the therapeutic studies, like they've done randomized controlled trials showing that you can drop cardiovascular death by 25% if you give people with a various range of heart diseases You know,

01:43:56.000 four grams of a purified form of EPA. It's called VASIPA. It's a prescription strength.

01:44:01.000 Say it again?

01:44:02.000 VASIPA. V-A-S-C EPA. And it is a high EPA. It's a purified EPA. And you can get it prescribed from your doctor if your triglycerides are over a certain level.

01:44:16.000 I don't know what that level is, but it's something that's like a prescription strength, which I actually want to get my mom taking.

01:44:24.000 But...

01:44:25.000 So what I'm getting at is the therapeutic effects for many of these cardiovascular-related diseases happen at a high dose, where taking a microalgae, like I don't know how many spoonfuls, like how many tablespoons or whatever you're going to have to take,

01:44:40.000 but probably quite a bit.

01:44:43.000 That stuff's so nasty, too.

01:44:44.000 I've never tried...

01:44:46.000 I've tried like the Carlson's one like a long time ago.

01:44:50.000 I used to take that.

01:44:51.000 But, you know, that was fish oil, not microalgae oil, so I've never tried that.

01:44:55.000 Yeah, I've tried Carlson's fish oil.

01:44:57.000 I've had that, the spoonful of stuff.

01:45:00.000 Carlson's has like a bunch of different flavors too.

01:45:02.000 They have like an orange flavor and a lemon flavor that's supposed to...

01:45:07.000 Make it taste a little better, but I'm always a little reluctant because I'm like, what is that lemon flavor?

01:45:12.000 Masking, right?

01:45:12.000 Because when you eat rancid fish oil, you know it tastes like gross.

01:45:17.000 It tastes disgusting and smells gross.

01:45:19.000 There's a website called the International Fish Oil Standards, IFSO, and they sort of like, they rank, I mean not rank, they They analyze data from lots and lots of different companies that make fish oil.

01:45:31.000 And they give you all this data based on concentration of EPA and DHA that's actually in the supplement.

01:45:39.000 What's called total oxidation levels, TOTOX, and that's important.

01:45:44.000 You want less than 10. It has the mercury levels, like PCBs.

01:45:48.000 So they have lots of data.

01:45:49.000 And you can scroll through their website and look at each product sheet.

01:45:53.000 And you have to kind of do it often because they update this every so often.

01:45:57.000 I've put together like I've gone through them all and made an excel sheet on like all the different brands and like again like the concentration and the the total oxidation and the mercury and all that and just I'm actually just getting ready to post a like screenshot video of me doing that like on YouTube showing people and like what I think some of the top brands are I have no affiliation it's just me helping people try to analyze this data because they've said it like a million times on social media and people still What

01:46:40.000 is the specific brand you use?

01:46:43.000 I use one that's not available.

01:46:45.000 A friend of mine in Norway makes it.

01:46:46.000 It's called N-Pure 3. It's not commercially available.

01:46:50.000 He sends it to me.

01:46:52.000 He hasn't scaled it.

01:46:55.000 He's so big on not Compromising the total oxidation and all that.

01:47:00.000 Sometimes when you scale things up, things get compromised.

01:47:05.000 He is trying to figure that out.

01:47:08.000 So he doesn't sell it commercially?

01:47:10.000 No.

01:47:10.000 I think he might in Norway, maybe.

01:47:13.000 I think he does do it in Norway.

01:47:15.000 But the pandemic shuts stuff down, so I'm not sure if he's back up or not.

01:47:20.000 But he sends it to me.

01:47:23.000 Sure.

01:47:38.000 So I separate them.

01:47:39.000 I don't know if it's necessary to separate them.

01:47:41.000 There was some, like, you know, evidence conflicting in the literature, like, oh, maybe DHA, like, if you take it at the same time, can compete with the EPA or, you know, something like that.

01:47:53.000 It's not really known.

01:47:54.000 I'm not sure if that's the case at all.

01:47:55.000 What is the sources for the fish?

01:47:57.000 Like, what fish?

01:47:58.000 He uses herring and I think a mixture of another one as well.

01:48:05.000 But his like contaminant level is like bottom out.

01:48:10.000 Like things of like arsenic, mercury, all that stuff is like really low.

01:48:14.000 Now when we were kids, cod liver oil was something that people always recommended.

01:48:18.000 Is there any science to that?

01:48:21.000 Well, cod liver oil is, you know, the micronutrient it's most high in is vitamin A. It also has vitamin D and it has omega-3.

01:48:30.000 I personally don't take cod liver oil because I think that omega-3s are, like, I think they have a huge...

01:48:42.000 Anti-aging effect.

01:48:43.000 And this is not like, look, this isn't been shown, okay?

01:48:47.000 It's just not how I, it's like my opinion, okay?

01:48:49.000 It's my opinion.

01:48:50.000 So I'm trying to get high enough doses.

01:48:53.000 If I were to take that from cod, I would overdose on vitamin A. Like I would, it would be like toxic.

01:48:57.000 Because vitamin A, like you, there's an upper limit.

01:49:00.000 So I couldn't get that from cod liver oil.

01:49:03.000 What about in addition to?

01:49:05.000 Is there a benefit in taking it in addition?

01:49:06.000 If you want to get your vitamin A and vitamin D through cod liver oil, you could.

01:49:10.000 I don't think it's bad for you.

01:49:13.000 Like, you know what I mean?

01:49:14.000 But it's a way to get vitamin D other than the sun.

01:49:16.000 It is, but you can also take a vitamin D supplement.

01:49:19.000 But are you getting it in the same sort of, like, when you're saying you're getting vitamin D, like, are you getting, like, 5,000 IUs?

01:49:26.000 That's the thing.

01:49:27.000 With the cod liver oil, I don't think the vitamin A concentration in every way always gets in the way for me.

01:49:33.000 Where it's like, if I want to take 4,000 to 5,000 IUs of vitamin D, I'd be ODing on the vitamin A. I'd be, like, toxic.

01:49:39.000 Got it.

01:49:40.000 So I just can't...

01:49:41.000 So you're better off taking a vitamin D supplement in addition...

01:49:45.000 In my opinion, yes, because I think having vitamin D levels between 40 and 60 nanograms per mil Is optimal.

01:49:54.000 And for me to get that for myself, I have to take 4,000 to 5,000.

01:49:57.000 Well, depending on how much sun exposure.

01:50:00.000 Sometimes in the summer I can go with less, but it really depends on the season.

01:50:05.000 That was one of the initial factors that they found with people that were in the ICU with COVID, that a large percentage of them were deficient in vitamin D. Right.

01:50:14.000 Yeah.

01:50:14.000 I mean, so the COVID, you know, there are lifestyle factors, I think, that are important for And possibly, you know, helping with severity.

01:50:24.000 And I think vitamin D is one.

01:50:27.000 The problem is, like, you know, doing a clinical trial with someone that already has COVID, and then like trying to give them vitamin D, like, you're not going to fix the severity of COVID, like with...

01:50:40.000 Right.

01:50:41.000 Right.

01:50:55.000 So you can give them something that makes it so their liver doesn't have to do that work.

01:51:00.000 And there's been a couple of studies showing it helps with people that have already had COVID. But again, there's a large actual clinical study that's ongoing right now being done by Dr. Joanne Manson.

01:51:13.000 I think?

01:51:26.000 The omega-3 index and COVID death.

01:51:31.000 And of course, this was a small, small pilot.

01:51:33.000 So it was like 100 people.

01:51:35.000 And, you know, people with the highest omega-3 index, again, it was in that 7% range.

01:51:41.000 And this was not statistically significant.

01:51:43.000 It was because there was a small sample size, but there was like a 75% reduction in COVID mortality.

01:51:49.000 No telling.

01:51:50.000 I wouldn't at all tell anyone, I mean, to take omega-3 to prevent COVID or to not die from it. 0.88

01:51:55.000 It would be ridiculous.

01:51:56.000 I mean, vaccines are probably the best way to prevent yourself from both getting and having a severe COVID. We could talk about it in a minute if you want.

01:52:06.000 I'd like to.

01:52:06.000 But the omega-3 thing is really interesting because there was an in silico study That show DHA, one of the main marine omega-3 fatty acids, keeps the spike protein.

01:52:20.000 So there's a receptor binding domain on the spike protein.

01:52:23.000 And that receptor binding domain swings around.

01:52:27.000 It goes from open to closed, open to closed.

01:52:29.000 And there's like, you know, a few of them on a spike protein, like three or something.

01:52:34.000 And when they're closed, like this, they can't bind to the ACE-T receptor.

01:52:39.000 So they can't even latch on.

01:52:42.000 And there was an interesting study showing that DHA was able to keep it in the closed conformation.

01:52:48.000 So this was in silico.

01:52:50.000 Again, grain of salt because it's in silico.

01:52:52.000 You can't say anything.

01:52:54.000 But I was like, oh, that's interesting.

01:52:56.000 Again, for me, I'm an omega-3 enthusiast in a way.

01:52:59.000 I do think there's a huge effect on resolving inflammation, not just But after your immune system's been activated, there's the protectants, the resolvins, the specialized pro-resolving mediators, the SPMs.

01:53:12.000 These things are resolving the inflammation so that your immune system doesn't go crazy and become in this hyper-inflammatory.

01:53:21.000 I think this potentially could be how it's affecting longevity.

01:53:25.000 I think that inflammation is a major source of driving the aging process.

01:53:30.000 And there's been studies that have looked at, for example, people that are centenarians, that live to be 100. People that are elderly, so like 80s.

01:53:39.000 People that are semi-supercentenarians are like 105. And then the supercentenarians, 110. And they've looked at a variety of biomarkers, telomere length, immunosenescence, you know, glucose, HbA1c, cholesterol, blah, blah, blah, like the whole thing, right?

01:53:53.000 Tons of them.

01:53:54.000 And the only thing that could predict a person going to each stage to living To be either then a centenarian and then later a semi-supercentenarian and then later a supercentenarian was decreasing inflammation.

01:54:08.000 Like none of the other things predicted each, you know, going to the next stage.

01:54:12.000 So that, to me, is very interesting as well.

01:54:15.000 The inflammation was like a huge predictor of not only like living the longest, but also cognitive function as well.

01:54:22.000 It was like the biggest predictor of cognitive function.

01:54:24.000 So, you know, again, it's like...

01:54:28.000 The omega-3s, to me, I'm convinced that the data is not quite there yet to actually solidly demonstrate that, like, high levels of omega.

01:54:41.000 Like, we're talking above 7% omega-3 index.

01:54:44.000 And I don't know exactly what it takes to get there.

01:54:46.000 Like I said, I have an 11.7 and I take four grams of fish oil all day and I eat sardines and I, you know, eat salmon.

01:54:54.000 So, you know, it's kind of, I'm like the Japanese cohort.

01:54:59.000 So I don't know what it takes to get above seven.

01:55:03.000 But I think that some of the work coming out of Bill Harris's lab is, you know, pretty...

01:55:11.000 Interesting and I think laying the foundation for, wait, maybe omega-3s, like a therapeutic type of dose.

01:55:18.000 You know, maybe there's, again, I'm taking an experimental dose.

01:55:22.000 Like what I'm doing is experimental.

01:55:23.000 Like that's not, like this isn't something...

01:55:26.000 Is there any perceived downsides to such high doses?

01:55:28.000 So I asked Dr. Harris about that.

01:55:31.000 He flew out for a podcast, like, last week.

01:55:35.000 And this guy, by the way, he started the whole omega-3 thing, like, back in, like, the eight.

01:55:41.000 He started studying it after the whole, you know, the Icelandic, Greenland, Inuits and their, like, lower cardiovascular disease.

01:55:48.000 And so this, like, he was, like, pioneering on the effects of omega-3, particularly in heart health.

01:55:53.000 But so he's been studying it for decades.

01:55:56.000 And so I asked him, like, you know, is there, like, what's the negative effects?

01:56:01.000 Like, he was giving people 25 grams of omega-3 back in the 80s.

01:56:05.000 Whoa.

01:56:06.000 And, like, doing, like, metabolic ward studies.

01:56:09.000 They must have smelled like fish.

01:56:10.000 Yeah.

01:56:10.000 He said they were giving him three salmon steaks and a big, like, I forgot how much, but, like, It totaled 25 grams, but salmon oil, pure salmon oil.

01:56:21.000 Wow.

01:56:22.000 He was 25 grams total.

01:56:23.000 Like, they were just getting massive doses.

01:56:25.000 So you'd think if anyone knows about negative effects with high dose, it would be him.

01:56:30.000 And he thinks that, you know...

01:56:33.000 So in that particular study, there was one patient, like one participant that had...

01:56:41.000 Like the bleeding thing.

01:56:43.000 Out of?

01:56:44.000 One out of?

01:56:45.000 Oh, I don't remember.

01:56:46.000 I don't remember.

01:56:48.000 The podcast is coming out in a couple of weeks, if you want to listen to it, but I don't remember.

01:56:53.000 Small study.

01:56:54.000 Small study, exactly.

01:56:55.000 But he's gone on since then.

01:56:58.000 So part of the concern, and we talked all about this bleeding thing, and he really doesn't think it's that big of a concern, to be honest.

01:57:04.000 And he talked about how You know, in Japan, like, they're basically like, they have less than, like, where their omega-3 index is high.

01:57:13.000 They're not, like, bleeding as much during surgery or some stuff.

01:57:16.000 I don't know.

01:57:16.000 He was giving some evidence of that.

01:57:18.000 But it does, the omega-3s do affect your leukotrienes and prostaglandins and things that do affect, you know, like, platelet aggregation and stuff.

01:57:27.000 But, like, Maybe it could be bad if you have some kind of disorder or you're taking some kind of crazy blood thinning medication.

01:57:37.000 He argues that's really not even that much of a concern.

01:57:42.000 The other concern is that people that already have a cardiovascular problem, there's been a small increase in arrhythmias in some of these people and it's not known why.

01:57:58.000 And in fact, if you look at, for example, AFib, the end result of AFib that's bad is stroke.

01:58:05.000 And omega-3s have been shown to reduce stroke incidence.

01:58:08.000 So it's like, well, if it was, like, really causing AFib or doing something bad, then, like, you should see an increased stroke incidence or, like, no effect.

01:58:15.000 But no, it decreases stroke incidence.

01:58:17.000 But it's not fun having AFib.

01:58:20.000 And, again, this is super, like, preliminary.

01:58:23.000 It's not really known.

01:58:24.000 It's like we got to, like, repeat that.

01:58:27.000 So, you know, it could be that taking very, very high doses.

01:58:31.000 In the studies that that was found, they were taking 4 grams of pure EPA. So it could be maybe there's something to super high doses we don't know about.

01:58:41.000 But I don't know.

01:58:43.000 Especially over prolonged periods of time, maybe.

01:58:45.000 And these were people with heart conditions as well.

01:58:47.000 And yeah, so this was like, these studies were five years.

01:58:50.000 This is so fascinating to me that as long as people have been studying nutrition, as long as people have been studying the human body, that there's still so much speculation as to what you should take and when you should take it and how much.

01:59:04.000 And people like you who study it constantly are still learning new things all the time.

01:59:09.000 Almost every time you come in here, you're like, okay, so there's a new study, and then you're telling me about this and you're telling me about that.

01:59:15.000 And it's really kind of wild when you think about the average person That I would venture to say, I don't know what percentage of the average population even takes vitamins.

01:59:28.000 What would you estimate?

01:59:31.000 There was a study back in 2015 that looked at this.

01:59:36.000 It was, gosh, I forgot.

01:59:39.000 I forgot exactly what the percentage was.

01:59:41.000 It wasn't very high.

01:59:43.000 And the percentage of people that did actually take supplements were the least likely to have vitamin and mineral deficiencies.

01:59:51.000 Yes, of sure.

01:59:52.000 Big surprise.

01:59:53.000 My friend's doctor literally told him the other day, That you don't need to take vitamins.

01:59:59.000 Just eat a balanced diet and you're fine.

02:00:02.000 Vitamins are nonsense.

02:00:03.000 I go, you need a better doctor. 1.00

02:00:05.000 Because that doctor doesn't know jack shit. 0.99

02:00:07.000 That is such a crazy thing to say when there is so much data on the actual tangible benefits of vitamin supplementation. 0.99

02:00:15.000 There's so much evidence.

02:00:17.000 There's so much work being done on it.

02:00:18.000 And for a guy who I know is an orthopedic surgeon, they're probably like, how much time do they spend on nutrition in medical school? 0.98

02:00:25.000 And the guy's in his 60s, so it was probably, you know, he was doing this shit in the 80s. 0.99

02:00:30.000 Like, what the fuck does he know? 0.99

02:00:32.000 And why is he saying this? 1.00

02:00:33.000 This is such a crazy, irresponsible thing to say to a person.

02:00:37.000 What my doctor said, like, and I'm looking at this guy, I'm like, get a better doctor.

02:00:41.000 Right.

02:00:42.000 Or get a doctor that concentrates on that and go to him when you're dealing with like ankle surgery or something.

02:00:49.000 But don't go to him.

02:00:50.000 He's a technician.

02:00:52.000 You know, he's not a nutrition scientist.

02:00:54.000 It's just like they're completely different fields of study and they're so comprehensive.

02:00:59.000 That's what's crazy about it. 0.98

02:01:01.000 Like every time I talk to you, you don't even have any notes in front of you and just rattling off this shit and it's like it's constant and it never ends. 0.97

02:01:08.000 There's constantly new studies, there's constantly new benefits that are unearthed. 0.97

02:01:12.000 It's like, it's so hard to keep abreast of all this stuff.

02:01:16.000 Absolutely.

02:01:17.000 And not to mention the fact that doing clinical trials in nutrition...

02:01:22.000 So a lot of physicians, they're used to the gold standard, the randomized placebo-controlled trial.

02:01:28.000 And it is a gold standard.

02:01:29.000 It's the best thing you can do to see if a treatment is working, right?

02:01:33.000 Or if X comes out of...

02:01:35.000 Or if Y comes out of X or whichever way it is.

02:01:37.000 But the problem with nutrition is that everyone has some level of this...

02:01:43.000 Nutrient X in their body from their diet.

02:01:45.000 And so you get these studies that there's no quantification of anything.

02:01:53.000 There's questionnaires like, how much did you eat?

02:01:55.000 How much vegetables do you eat per week?

02:01:58.000 And it's like, oh, I eat X amount.

02:02:00.000 And then it's like you actually measure something like a biomarker like You know, beta carotene or, you know, something, and you realize, oh, they eat a lot more vegetables than they thought, or they eat a lot less because it's a biomarker, right?

02:02:15.000 So you have these questionnaires or, you know, the clinical studies are being done poorly.

02:02:21.000 Not only is it hard to keep up with the data, you have crappy data with salacious headlines like, oh, vitamins do nothing.

02:02:29.000 But, you know, the reality is the study is like, okay, we never measured anything.

02:02:32.000 We didn't measure, you know, vitamin D, which you can make from the sun, and everyone has different levels at the start of the study.

02:02:37.000 And we gave them a supplement where it's like, you know, 400 IUs, where it doesn't even raise your blood levels, anything.

02:02:42.000 And then we looked at this endpoint, X, like cancer incidents.

02:02:45.000 We didn't measure anything after.

02:02:46.000 And it's like, you know, like, that's a terrible study.

02:02:50.000 Right.

02:02:50.000 You know, but makes the headlines and, you know, there are some healthcare practitioners that read those and then they get this idea that, well, they do nothing because I read that study they did, you know.

02:03:02.000 Yeah.

02:03:02.000 And in some cases they're randomized placebo-controlled studies where they are giving a placebo and they are randomizing it and they're doing all that, but they're not measuring the blood levels.

02:03:10.000 They're not measuring anything.

02:03:11.000 So, you know, there's all sorts of problems with that.

02:03:15.000 And I think they're...

02:03:18.000 It's hard to do.

02:03:19.000 It's hard to solve.

02:03:20.000 Clinical trials in nutrition need to be designed better.

02:03:22.000 They do.

02:03:23.000 You need to quantify everything.

02:03:24.000 You need to quantify these nutrients.

02:03:26.000 Drugs, people don't have that to start with.

02:03:28.000 You don't have to quantify anything.

02:03:29.000 You just give them the pill.

02:03:30.000 Yeah, it's going to raise their levels because they don't have any of it.

02:03:33.000 It also just seems like just staying on top of all the research is so time consuming.

02:03:40.000 Totally.

02:03:41.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:03:41.000 I mean, there's no doubt.

02:03:43.000 I can't even stay on top of it.

02:03:46.000 And now that I'm a mother, it's even more difficult, you know.

02:03:49.000 But, you know, there's all my notes.

02:03:51.000 And I have flashcards, too.

02:03:54.000 I mean, I was preparing to come on here.

02:03:58.000 And, you know, there's certain things that I... There's numbers and things like that.

02:04:03.000 If you can know that amount, it helps, you know.

02:04:05.000 So...

02:04:06.000 There's just so much data.

02:04:08.000 There's so much information.

02:04:09.000 And then if you think about like to have your immune system in check, to have your body functioning in check, to have your muscle repairing correctly, to have all these factors and to have all your nutrient levels balanced and adjusted accordingly and to make sure that you're getting All your needs as far as your essential fatty acids and your vitamins and your nutrients and your minerals and all these different things.

02:04:39.000 It's so complex.

02:04:40.000 There's so much going on and so few people are on top of it.

02:04:45.000 I mean, so...

02:05:03.000 It's kind of an arrogant thing to say, oh, you don't need to take a vitamin because all you've got to do is eat a balanced diet.

02:05:11.000 That's pretty arrogant, in my opinion.

02:05:13.000 In mine as well.

02:05:15.000 I know how little most people know about it.

02:05:19.000 That's...

02:05:20.000 I know so little about it, and I try to pay attention to it as much as possible.

02:05:24.000 And when I talk to someone like you, I'm aware of how little I really know.

02:05:28.000 And it's so complex, and it's so changing and evolving, and there's always new information that's being released.

02:05:35.000 Yeah, and I'm also aware of how little I know every time something new comes out.

02:05:39.000 Like, there's a question, and I'm like diving into it.

02:05:42.000 I'm like, oh, I didn't know any of this.

02:05:44.000 So, you know, there's always information coming out.

02:05:47.000 Just overall health is so important, and yet there's so little consideration given to it by most people.

02:05:55.000 And it's one of the most confusing things about human beings.

02:05:59.000 Like, when people are sick, the thing that they want more than anything is to be healthy.

02:06:04.000 Like, oh my god, I wish I was healthy.

02:06:06.000 But then, once they get healthy, they go back to the same eating habits, the same sedentary lifestyle, drinking alcohol, cigarettes, all the same shit that got them in the mess in the first place,

02:06:22.000 and they don't change much about their nutrition, they don't change much about their exercise habits, when it has such a massive effect On the quality of your life, the longevity of your ability to exercise.

02:06:34.000 I'm 54 now, and I really haven't lost any ability to exercise rigorously, to do it the same way.

02:06:43.000 One of the things I did is I completed that Israeli protocol for hyperbaric chambers where you did 90 days.

02:06:53.000 I did 60 sessions of 90 minutes over 90 days.

02:06:59.000 Lengthen your telomeres that's appropriate to or approximate to a 20-year decrease in your biological age.

02:07:06.000 I did that.

02:07:07.000 I just did it.

02:07:08.000 I just finished it.

02:07:09.000 And I feel great.

02:07:10.000 I don't know what it did.

02:07:12.000 I mean, I didn't really measure my telomeres and I probably should now, but there's definitely something that happens.

02:07:19.000 When you do something like that. 0.97

02:07:20.000 But who the fuck has time for that? 0.98

02:07:21.000 Who's going to do that? 1.00

02:07:23.000 How many people are going to be committed to going to some stupid place and lying in a metal chamber for 90 days? 1.00

02:07:29.000 You're an outlier, that's for sure. 1.00

02:07:31.000 I think there's some thoughts that it helps increase blood vessels and growth.

02:07:39.000 There's all sorts of things going on.

02:07:41.000 I know there's probably studies that actually have proposed mechanisms.

02:07:44.000 I just don't know about them.

02:07:45.000 I'm definitely an outlier in what I practice and that I'm dedicated to it.

02:07:51.000 But it's also because I don't like being sick.

02:07:52.000 I haven't been sick in 11 years.

02:07:55.000 Plus, it's been at least 11 years.

02:07:57.000 But it's because of actions, because of things I do.

02:08:02.000 And I just don't understand people that don't want to be healthier, and I really wish it was more accessible.

02:08:10.000 I really wish it was much more common to get comprehensive blood work, and much more common to get nutritional counseling, and much more common for people to be rigorously exercising, to do it on a regular basis,

02:08:25.000 and to realize that when your body is more resilient, When your body's fit, when your cardiovascular shape is higher, you're just better off.

02:08:34.000 You're better off.

02:08:35.000 You can think better.

02:08:36.000 You're healthier.

02:08:36.000 You recover from things better.

02:08:38.000 Like, everything works better.

02:08:39.000 Right.

02:08:40.000 And now, I think now, more than ever, Being healthy is even more important.

02:08:47.000 Getting to a healthy weight.

02:08:50.000 Trying to not have these comorbidities like high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes.

02:08:58.000 There's a huge lifestyle factor involved in obesity, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure.

02:09:06.000 There's definitely things that can be done, you know, that help with that, you know, that help when we were talking about sauna and exercise.

02:09:14.000 And, you know, there's even like, you know, other ketogenic diet does help with like weight loss, but there's other strategies for that as well.

02:09:21.000 And having the vitamin D, having enough vitamin D and omega-3s, like, you know, to me, it seems like, yeah, it should be beneficial.

02:09:30.000 Everyone should want.

02:09:30.000 It should be like super motivated, you know, to do that.

02:09:34.000 But it's always hard to get people to do it.

02:09:37.000 As you mentioned, it's like extremely difficult.

02:09:40.000 So, even with my mom, and I constantly am imparting her with information.

02:09:45.000 Isn't it strange, though, that humans are so reluctant to do things that would benefit them?

02:09:50.000 It's so weird.

02:09:51.000 I don't think they believe it, or they might just, you know, it's just too much work.

02:09:56.000 It's too hard.

02:09:56.000 It's too much work, and what little benefit?

02:09:59.000 You know, is it worth it?

02:10:00.000 Like, I think that's the kind of stuff, like, there's lots of excuses.

02:10:03.000 Right.

02:10:04.000 But, you know— But long term, clearly, there's a lot of benefit.

02:10:07.000 Right.

02:10:07.000 It's just you have to put it—it's like you're building a mountain with a layer of paint at a time.

02:10:12.000 Right.

02:10:12.000 Yeah.

02:10:13.000 You have to put in the effort.

02:10:14.000 I mean, for sure.

02:10:16.000 And I do think even with, you know, COVID-19, there's obviously data showing that, you know, people that are obese or have a comorbidity, they're more likely to have a severe form of it.

02:10:27.000 And it's like twice as much in some cases, you know, it's not like, you know, something like a vaccine would do.

02:10:34.000 But it definitely plays a role.

02:10:37.000 And, you know, it should be a motivating factor.

02:10:40.000 But, you know, since we're on this topic, can we talk a little bit about vaccines?

02:10:45.000 Because it's something I have seen a lot of misinformation, like, on everywhere.

02:10:53.000 Facebook, on, you know, different news media outlets.

02:10:55.000 And I think there's really, like, some main ones that I just feel are...

02:11:03.000 Causing harm.

02:11:05.000 And so there's really eight of them.

02:11:07.000 We don't need to talk about all of them.

02:11:09.000 But I think the eight really are that, you know, SARS-CoV-2 is not that bad.

02:11:13.000 COVID-19 is not that bad.

02:11:15.000 And, you know, vaccines basically don't prevent transmission.

02:11:20.000 Spike protein from vaccines are cytotoxic.

02:11:23.000 Therefore, they're really bad.

02:11:25.000 That vaccines are going to cause something called antibody-dependent enhancement.

02:11:29.000 Which is going to make you have a more severe disease.

02:11:33.000 There's the vaccines are going to cause infertility.

02:11:36.000 There's the vaccines are going to cause a more virulent strain or variant.

02:11:44.000 And then there's one more that alternatives to vaccines exist right now that are just as good.

02:11:50.000 And I think that there's a few of those that are really, I mean, just like blatantly, they're wrong.

02:11:57.000 All of them, I think.

02:11:58.000 But I mean, you know, there's some that are more important than others.

02:12:00.000 And I think that I would like to talk about them.

02:12:04.000 You know, I think first and foremost, there's like two groups of people, mostly.

02:12:09.000 One thinks COVID-19 is bad, wants the vaccine, and the other one that thinks it's not that bad and that the vaccines may be harmful.

02:12:20.000 Do you think the vaccines are harmful to anyone?

02:12:23.000 Well, of course.

02:12:24.000 Yeah.

02:12:25.000 Do you know anyone that's had bad reactions to vaccines?

02:12:28.000 I personally, interestingly, the only, I know a lot of people that have gotten vaccinated, and the only person that I know that had something was like, she had a headache for like a week and a half, and then it went away.

02:12:41.000 Oh no, another person I knew had nausea for a couple of weeks.

02:12:45.000 They were nauseous more frequently, but it went away.

02:12:49.000 Do you think you would feel differently if you knew someone that had a stroke?

02:12:53.000 Or someone who's had heart attacks?

02:12:56.000 Perhaps young people that have?

02:12:58.000 Well...

02:13:00.000 It's hard to say.

02:13:01.000 So, you know, people react differently, obviously.

02:13:06.000 When you're giving, you know, more than 169 million people are vaccinated, right?

02:13:11.000 I mean, that's half our adult population is vaccinated, fully vaccinated with COVID-19.

02:13:19.000 And it's not zero risk.

02:13:21.000 Some people are going to have an adverse reaction.

02:13:24.000 And they do.

02:13:25.000 It's a big world out there.

02:13:27.000 If you were to give 169 million people a peanut or a shellfish, some people are going to have very adverse reactions.

02:13:33.000 Some people are going to die.

02:13:34.000 It's a big world.

02:13:35.000 But with the stroke or the heart attack, you have to...

02:13:40.000 So if you're trying to compare, for example, Let's say, you know, you're looking at actual COVID-19 deaths and from heart attacks and strokes, and you're looking at the vaccine adverse events reporting site VAERS, right?

02:13:53.000 And that as well.

02:13:55.000 You know, you have to realize that basically in the United States, in 2017, there was a publication in the Journal of Circulation.

02:14:03.000 Someone dies from cardiovascular disease every 30 seconds in the United States.

02:14:08.000 Every 30 seconds.

02:14:09.000 Most of those people are above the age of 50, and certainly most are above 65. But every 30 seconds, someone's dying from cardiovascular disease.

02:14:18.000 Every 40 seconds, someone in the United States has a stroke.

02:14:22.000 Every four minutes, they die from a stroke.

02:14:24.000 But this is also very, very rare in young people, particularly young, healthy people.

02:14:28.000 But one thing that has occurred in young, healthy people that have been vaccinated is myocarditis.

02:14:34.000 And some people have had blood clots, like quite a few blood clots.

02:14:38.000 And there's speculation, right?

02:14:41.000 The Salk Institute released that paper about the spike protein causing some sort of deterioration of the blood vessels.

02:14:48.000 Did you read that?

02:14:50.000 I've been looking at a lot of the spike protein and...

02:14:53.000 That's from COVID-19.

02:14:55.000 They're discussing it.

02:14:56.000 They're talking about from...

02:14:57.000 From the actual disease itself.

02:14:58.000 Yes.

02:14:59.000 So, you know, first of all, like, they're...

02:15:05.000 You're either going to get infected with SARS-CoV-2.

02:15:08.000 Most people are going to be eventually.

02:15:10.000 We're all going to be exposed to it.

02:15:11.000 So you're either going to be vaccinated when you're exposed to it or not.

02:15:14.000 And people are dying from heart attacks and blood clots.

02:15:18.000 And even people are getting myocarditis like 100 full times more than vaccines.

02:15:24.000 The myocarditis link from the mRNA, specifically the mRNA vaccines, is real.

02:15:30.000 And I think the last I saw it was like 50 per million, which is still rare.

02:15:36.000 It's happened to two people that I know.

02:15:39.000 So, up until then, and actually now that you asked me, I forgot.

02:15:43.000 I had someone who's a supporter.

02:15:47.000 I talked about vaccines in one of my Q&As I do, and they went and got it, and they were younger and ended up having some kind of myocarditis.

02:15:53.000 So, I do know someone that had it.

02:15:54.000 I don't know them, but they emailed me.

02:15:56.000 Now, what happens if you have that?

02:15:59.000 And like, how do you recover from that?

02:16:01.000 But you realize it's happening to young people.

02:16:03.000 So myocarditis is caused by two things.

02:16:06.000 One, by inflammation.

02:16:08.000 Two, by a direct viral infection.

02:16:10.000 And it's more common in adolescents and young people.

02:16:13.000 And it's an enlargement of the heart?

02:16:14.000 It's inflammation of the heart can lead to that, yeah.

02:16:17.000 But it's happening in young athletes with COVID-19, like, and it's happening, like, more frequently than people that are getting vaccinated.

02:16:26.000 So it's still like, well, if the person that got vaccinated, look, it is a risk, but it's still pretty rare, and it also is treatable.

02:16:34.000 In most cases, they treat it, like, within a few days, and it's isolated.

02:16:38.000 Why do you think that people, like, there are people that are completely asymptomatic when they get COVID, or if they do get it, it's very mild.

02:16:47.000 Do you think that's because they have a lower viral load that they've been infected with?

02:16:53.000 Or do you think it's their immune system that fights it off?

02:16:56.000 Like, what do you think is happening?

02:16:57.000 It could be any and all of those things, a combination of them.

02:17:01.000 And, you know, but so like, even if you think, you know, if you're looking at just like the most extreme part of like the deaths, right?

02:17:08.000 You know, you've got like over 624,000 deaths in COVID-19.

02:17:12.000 Most of those deaths are happening in people over the age of 50. And if you look at like...

02:17:18.000 Most of them have four plus comorbidity factors, right?

02:17:21.000 Isn't that the average...

02:17:22.000 I don't know if it's 4 plus for average.

02:17:26.000 I think the comorbidities increase, yeah.

02:17:28.000 Let's find out what the number of comorbidities are in terms of the deaths.

02:17:33.000 It used to be 2.6, but I think they raised it to 4. I think so.

02:17:40.000 I might be wrong, but I know it was at least 2.6.

02:17:42.000 Right.

02:17:42.000 So then there's the argument, well, I'm healthy.

02:17:44.000 I don't have comorbidities, right?

02:17:47.000 I mean, so what should I do?

02:17:49.000 Like, should I, you know, get vaccinated or should I be exposed to the virus?

02:17:54.000 And I think there's a lot of evidence and there's multiple lines of evidence.

02:17:59.000 One, you know, There are people with mild symptoms that are getting post-acute COVID syndrome.

02:18:05.000 They're getting this, what people call long-haul COVID. And the majority of people...

02:18:10.000 What do you think that is?

02:18:10.000 What is long-haul COVID? I don't know what it is.

02:18:14.000 I think it depends on the symptoms.

02:18:16.000 I think there could be a variety of causes for it.

02:18:19.000 You know, so there are people...

02:18:21.000 And most of it, this is happening in teenagers to like 50. Most of the people that are older are not getting this long-haul COVID. It's like happening in people that are mostly not being hospitalized.

02:18:29.000 Yeah.

02:18:30.000 People that don't get hospitalized originally, like, they have mostly, like, pretty mild symptoms, in some cases even asymptomatic.

02:18:36.000 You know, there was a study published in The Lancet, like, last year, showing there was a seven-fold increase in stroke incidents in people under 50 in the United States compared to the year before that, before the pandemic start.

02:18:49.000 And that is probably because of the spike protein that causes this deterioration of the blood vessels and blood clots.

02:18:55.000 Is that what it is from the virus?

02:18:57.000 Well, I don't know what it is.

02:18:58.000 I mean, there's lots of things.

02:19:00.000 Viral infections themselves can cause hypercoagulation.

02:19:03.000 They can cause blood clots.

02:19:06.000 That's known from other viruses.

02:19:08.000 Without the spike protein.

02:19:09.000 Without the spike protein.

02:19:11.000 Okay.

02:19:11.000 I feel like I haven't got to address everything, but let's talk about the spike protein.

02:19:15.000 I think this four point is where I would find this information.

02:19:19.000 I hope that's the spike protein.

02:19:20.000 Yeah, there was an average of 4.0 additional conditions or causes of death for data on deaths involving COVID-19 by time period, jurisdiction, and other health conditions.

02:19:35.000 So it says only 5% that COVID was the only cause.

02:19:38.000 So for only 5% of the COVID deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned.

02:19:43.000 So out of those 600,000 people that died, only 5% died just from COVID-19.

02:19:50.000 Well, I mean, so you have people that are, COVID-19 is going to make their comorbidities worse, and that could be the same for a vaccine.

02:19:58.000 It could be the same for anything, right?

02:19:59.000 I mean, so like something that's going to activate the immune system.

02:20:02.000 Yeah, but the concern is what vaccines, the negative effects, what people are worried about, I think, is young people that are healthy that have negative effects, like that have had strokes or that have had thrombosis or myocarditis and those issues,

02:20:19.000 right?

02:20:19.000 Well, you know, again, if you look at the data, you know, young people are also experiencing those things at a higher rate.

02:20:27.000 And are those all the people with the comorbidities?

02:20:29.000 Like, I don't know.

02:20:30.000 You know, like, I'm not sure.

02:20:32.000 But it seems as though no matter which way you look at it, like, it is worse to be exposed to that virus.

02:20:40.000 And like, how do you know that person that had that myocarditis wouldn't have had it x-fold worse with COVID-19?

02:20:47.000 Because it's been shown to happen in young, healthy athletes.

02:20:50.000 Has it been shown in large numbers?

02:20:54.000 More so than the vaccines?

02:20:57.000 Is that what you're saying?

02:20:58.000 Yes, I'm saying that myocarditis from the vaccines is happening in younger people at a higher rate than from the vaccines.

02:21:03.000 Do we have accurate data, do you think, about how many myocarditis instances we have from the vaccine?

02:21:09.000 Well, you could argue there's an under-reporting.

02:21:12.000 I think people, so anyone can submit data to the VAERS, and I think when it comes to someone who's younger, they're more likely.

02:21:22.000 I mean, so healthcare professionals have to submit to the VAERS if there's, like, something that's life-threatening, which myocarditis could be.

02:21:29.000 Or if it's a death or something that's like, you know, changes their daily functions, like congenital effects.

02:21:35.000 They have to submit it?

02:21:36.000 Yes.

02:21:38.000 But how do they know that myocarditis is caused by the vaccine?

02:21:44.000 They don't.

02:21:45.000 But if the person had gotten vaccinated, and by the way, there's no time constraint.

02:21:50.000 It's not like, oh, if they've only been vaccinated within two months.

02:21:54.000 They're supposed to submit to VAERS if someone was vaccinated.

02:21:59.000 They're supposed to?

02:22:00.000 Yes.

02:22:01.000 Is there encouragement or discouragement to submit to VAERS? I don't know.

02:22:05.000 I don't know.

02:22:05.000 But I mean, you know, if you again, even just looking at the deaths in every age group, even like, you know, people that are in my age group, 40 to 49, you know, there's 20,000 deaths that have been linked to the confirmed COVID-19 cases.

02:22:19.000 Right.

02:22:19.000 Whereas, you know, in VAERS, it's 200. And even if you triple that.

02:22:23.000 For people with comorbidities, obviously, it's a real issue.

02:22:27.000 Yeah, I don't know if that's always the case, but yes, definitely with people with comorbidities.

02:22:33.000 Because according to this, what we pulled up, it's 5% that are dying just of the COVID. 95% have an average of four comorbidities.

02:22:42.000 Okay.

02:22:42.000 Well, if that's true for all ages, then yes, people with comorbidities are more likely to die.

02:22:49.000 But also younger people, like I said, they're more likely to get, you know, these long haul symptoms where I've known so many people, you know, that they've gotten like their loss of smell or taste has been like several months.

02:23:01.000 And there's now studies showing that, you know, if you, there was a huge study out of the biobank, UK biobank data, where right before the pandemic started, MRIs were done, brain scans on like, almost 1000 people was like over 800. And then the pandemic hit.

02:23:18.000 People got COVID, some people didn't, whatever.

02:23:20.000 So they brought the same cohort of people back in for a brain scan.

02:23:26.000 And, you know, basically they corrected for people.

02:23:30.000 So they had people that they compared people that were the same age, same gender, same sex.

02:23:34.000 And then they also timed between scans.

02:23:38.000 And they found that both mild and severe COVID-19 cases caused a Right.

02:23:48.000 Right.

02:23:50.000 Right.

02:24:02.000 Were these people, did they stratify it by age?

02:24:06.000 Did they have it by health?

02:24:07.000 Age, gender, ethnicity, health, I don't know.

02:24:10.000 Did they have comorbidities?

02:24:12.000 Did they factor that in?

02:24:13.000 They had people that age the same age, you know, as people didn't get COVID, they didn't have it.

02:24:18.000 I mean, you know, this is several months.

02:24:20.000 This is just months after.

02:24:21.000 I don't know about the health.

02:24:22.000 Did they monitor their nutrition or find out what kind of supplements they were on or not?

02:24:28.000 I don't know if any of that data was in it.

02:24:31.000 Do you think that data would be a factor at all?

02:24:34.000 I don't know because I know people that supplement that exercise that have had were diagnosed with they had a mild case and they were diagnosed with POTS you know post postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome where their heart was racing like tachycardia was racing just uncontrollably they were dizzy couldn't had no energy I mean this was months and they finally got diagnosed and it's like a lot of people coming out with this but you know Do you know anybody that had COVID and got

02:25:04.000 through it with almost no symptoms at all and was very mild?

02:25:08.000 Well, yeah, no symptoms at all.

02:25:09.000 But the people that I do know, most of them had some kind of weird taste issue or smell thing for weeks and weeks.

02:25:18.000 You don't know anybody that didn't have that?

02:25:20.000 No.

02:25:22.000 I don't, because most of the people I know that had it lost their smell.

02:25:27.000 I know people are out there that don't have any symptoms at all.

02:25:32.000 I think it was something like 40% were completely asymptomatic, right?

02:25:36.000 Well, there was a study in Israel, kind of going back to the stroke thing, that found...

02:25:41.000 This was published in...

02:25:45.000 What was it?

02:25:46.000 Maybe April 2020 or something?

02:25:47.000 Maybe July.

02:25:48.000 I don't know.

02:25:49.000 It was still 2020. But they looked at patients that were coming in for stroke, and these were younger than 50. And like 30% of them had had COVID, didn't know it because they were asymptomatic and they were younger people.

02:26:02.000 So it's like you'd think, well, if they had four comorbidities, they had COVID, they'd know it, right?

02:26:10.000 So they were coming in for stroke.

02:26:12.000 And they had no idea they had COVID until they were tested.

02:26:17.000 Because they had a stroke.

02:26:18.000 Exactly.

02:26:19.000 Interesting.

02:26:19.000 So getting back to like, you know, so there's reasons that I personally think that people that are younger and healthy should get vaccinated.

02:26:29.000 And for one is because...

02:26:32.000 For most people, the vaccines are safe.

02:26:34.000 And I mean, we just have data to show that, you know, we have hundreds of millions of people that have had the vaccines we're getting in the United States that have been vaccinated worldwide.

02:26:44.000 The second, you know, it's just hundreds of millions of people.

02:26:48.000 But also the fact that...

02:26:50.000 You know, some of this stuff where you're talking about spike protein and you're worried about spike protein.

02:26:56.000 So this is important because the spike protein from the SARS-CoV-2 virus is a different spike protein than what's in the vaccine.

02:27:04.000 So when the vaccines were made, these are ones in the U.S. So this is both mRNA vaccines, the Pfizer-BioNTech and then the Moderna as well as Johnson& Johnson.

02:27:16.000 The protein itself is locked in a conformation.

02:27:19.000 It's called pre-fusion, which is kind of like closed together.

02:27:23.000 And typically what happens when viruses like interact with our cell membrane, they elongate.

02:27:29.000 It's called post-fusion, a post-fusion viral complex, and changes structure.

02:27:34.000 And so the actual, both the mRNA vaccines and Johnson& Johnson locked the spike protein in the pre-fusion conformation.

02:27:45.000 We're good to go.

02:28:06.000 And also mice.

02:28:07.000 There's been some in vitro studies showing the spike protein is harmful in those studies.

02:28:13.000 And it's binding to the ACE2 receptor.

02:28:15.000 And once it binds, it can undergo fusion and endocytosis.

02:28:20.000 But we don't know if the spike protein from these mRNA vaccines are doing that.

02:28:25.000 If you're going to make that claim, it's a different spike protein.

02:28:28.000 You can't make that claim with no evidence.

02:28:30.000 So what do you think is happening to the people that are getting myocarditis or strokes or thrombosis or blood clots from the vaccine?

02:28:39.000 So here's the thing.

02:28:41.000 I think the other part of that is that people are concerned that the mRNA vaccines don't stay in the deltoid tissue and they're somehow getting into circulation and causing havoc, you know.

02:28:55.000 Here's the thing.

02:28:57.000 These mRNA vaccines, they're basically encased in this lipid nanoparticle and there's some other things in there with it.

02:29:06.000 But generally speaking, when they're injected into the muscle tissue, the lipid nanoparticle has a half-life of a few hours.

02:29:13.000 A few hours.

02:29:14.000 Long enough to protect the mRNA from degrading.

02:29:17.000 The mRNA, again, the half-life is, you know, anywhere between some 72 hours or maybe like a little longer.

02:29:24.000 And the spike protein itself that's made in your cells speaks after 24 hours and then it goes away after 48. The concern from people that the spike protein from the mRNA vaccines or even just the whole mRNA vaccine itself,

02:29:41.000 the whole lipid nanoparticle with the mRNAs, like going to other tissues, comes from studies that were done from Pfizer.

02:29:48.000 And it was kind of leaked out, and these studies were called biodistribution studies.

02:29:54.000 And they injected in—they did rats and they did mice.

02:29:56.000 And the rats, they injected 50 micrograms of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

02:30:02.000 So humans, we get 30 micrograms per injection.

02:30:07.000 They gave the rat 50. So, you know, how big is a rat?

02:30:11.000 You know, they're getting almost twice as much as a big human's getting.

02:30:14.000 If you look at the rat equivalent dose, 50 micrograms is 10 times the rat equivalent dose.

02:30:21.000 They were doing that intentionally for safety and to see what happens when you give 10 times, like, a high dose.

02:30:26.000 And what...

02:30:27.000 What was found is that you could see they radiolabeled the lipid nanoparticle.

02:30:32.000 And you could see some radiolabeled parts in other organs.

02:30:36.000 Like, you know, you'd see it in the spleen, the liver, you know, the bone marrow, a little bit of other organs.

02:30:43.000 But again, this is 10 times the dose.

02:30:46.000 And this was a radiolabeled lipid nanoparticle.

02:30:50.000 And typically, you know, when you inject something into like your muscle, you've got lymphatic system.

02:30:56.000 Lymph is like surrounding it.

02:30:58.000 Lots of immune cells are there.

02:31:00.000 And so what ends up happening is you have like dendritic cells immediately when something foreign, like this lipid nanoparticle, they chew it up into pieces.

02:31:08.000 And through phagocytosis, it's like, you know, it gets taken to, you know, liver and stuff for like metabolic purposes, right?

02:31:16.000 So we don't even know what that was, not to mention the fact that it was, you know, 10 times the dose.

02:31:22.000 How is it going to get into the circulation that's weird?

02:31:25.000 There have been some earlier studies on mRNA vaccines that have shown when you directly inject it, like if you do it like intravenously, it goes to the liver.

02:31:35.000 The mRNA vaccine goes to the liver and your liver tries to get rid of it.

02:31:38.000 The same bio-distribution study also injected mRNA vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech into mice.

02:31:44.000 But this time they did the animal equivalent dose, which was two micrograms.

02:31:48.000 And there was a little bit found in the liver 24 hours later, but it was gone by 48. Nothing.

02:31:55.000 And there was no other organs that at least that they showed.

02:31:58.000 I mean, presumably if they were showing up in other organs, they would show that, but like in the animal study.

02:32:04.000 So that's one piece of evidence.

02:32:05.000 The other one I've seen going around is like there was a small study, 13 people, and they were looking at the antibody response to vaccines.

02:32:14.000 And within these 13 people, they used a test called the Samoa, S-I-M-O-A, to measure spike protein and the S1 subunit of the spike protein.

02:32:24.000 And they found that three out of 13 people had, they could detect spike protein, and 11 out of 13, they could detect some of the S1 subunit.

02:32:34.000 But it turns out, like, this test, the Samoa, is really good for looking at, like, IgG, you know, antibodies.

02:32:41.000 But when it comes to actual spike protein, it's 25% false positivity rate.

02:32:46.000 So another study showed this.

02:32:47.000 You could take people pre-pandemic, run this test on them, and they'd show, like, they had spike protein.

02:32:52.000 25% of the time.

02:32:53.000 So it's just a bad test?

02:32:55.000 It's an inaccurate test for spike protein, definitely for spike protein, but also for the S1 subunit.

02:33:02.000 So I don't think you can make a claim that because you have 11 out of 13 people showing this, using this test, that's the only study that's shown that.

02:33:11.000 That, to me, is like, you can't make any claim from that.

02:33:14.000 There's no way.

02:33:15.000 So what do you think is happening to people that are having bad responses to the vaccine?

02:33:19.000 Like when young people are having myocarditis or heart failure, when they're having strokes, what do you think is happening?

02:33:25.000 Well, it depends also on the vaccine itself.

02:33:28.000 So what we know about the mRNA vaccines is that they are the ones that are associated with myocarditis.

02:33:36.000 But isn't the Johnson& Johnson's also associated with blood clots?

02:33:40.000 It's different.

02:33:41.000 I'm saying myocarditis.

02:33:42.000 Oh, okay.

02:33:42.000 Just myocarditis.

02:33:43.000 Yeah.

02:33:43.000 So these are mRNA vaccines, and they do elicit a pretty strong immune response, and that's why they've been so effective.

02:33:53.000 I guess I should say the efficacy, if you're looking at clinical trials, in terms of preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection compared to Johnson& Johnson initially.

02:34:03.000 But Johnson& Johnson uses an adenoviral vaccine.

02:34:07.000 So this is the first time adenoviral vaccines have been used, you know, widespread.

02:34:14.000 Like they've been used in clinical studies dating back to like the 90s or 80s or something like that.

02:34:19.000 But I was looking at some of those research studies, and there seems to be a link between blood clots, thrombosis, and the adenoviral vectors back then, back in those studies.

02:34:30.000 And I don't think they're understanding.

02:34:33.000 It's still kind of rare.

02:34:34.000 I mean, it's still rare.

02:34:35.000 And again, you know, COVID is causing blood clots in people, even people that are healthy, you know, like people that are getting a stroke.

02:34:43.000 So, you know, I don't know what it is, but it's still pretty rare with the adenoviral vaccines and the thrombocytopenia and things like that.

02:34:53.000 The myocarditis, again, still pretty rare, and that's with the mRNA vaccines. 0.97

02:35:00.000 Inflammation is playing a role in that, and why that is, I don't know.

02:35:03.000 Younger people, children and adolescents are more prone to myocarditis from viral infections.

02:35:08.000 It probably has something to do with their immune system being so much better, and when you activate it, maybe sometimes in some people...

02:35:13.000 You know, there's too much of it going on.

02:35:15.000 I don't know.

02:35:16.000 I don't think this is linked.

02:35:18.000 I don't think that you're going to find, you know, the spike protein from the mRNA vaccines are like floating around in your vascular system and like going to your heart and like finding on...

02:35:30.000 Well, I mean, in theory, yeah, it is.

02:35:33.000 But, you know, again, like, the spike proteins from the mRNA vaccines are different from SARS-CoV-2.

02:35:40.000 We talked about that, pre-fusion, right.

02:35:41.000 Do we know if those spike proteins that are different, do they have the same effect on the body, or is it a minimal effect?

02:35:47.000 Like, what is...

02:35:48.000 Well, we know that the...

02:35:49.000 So this work was done by Jason McClellan.

02:35:52.000 He's actually in Austin.

02:35:54.000 He's at the University of Austin.

02:35:56.000 He's the one that basically did this two-point mutation and kept the spike protein in the prefusion complex.

02:36:04.000 And this was work that he had done previously with RSV, respiratory synsexual virus, is what every kid gets, right?

02:36:11.000 And if you want to hear about a vaccine tragedy story, that's the poster child.

02:36:15.000 There were clinical studies done back in the 1960s on RSV vaccines.

02:36:21.000 And I don't remember the number of people in the actual study of infants and toddlers, but 80% of the infants and toddlers that got the vaccine and then were naturally exposed to the virus got hospitalized and a couple died,

02:36:40.000 versus 5% of the infants that did not get the vaccine and were exposed.

02:36:46.000 So the vaccine, we know now from what was happening in that sense, was that the vaccine was causing something called antibody-dependent enhancement.

02:36:56.000 And what that is, there's two ways that it can happen, but one of the things, and it's induced by vaccines, one of the things that can happen is it can make viruses come into your cells, like, better.

02:37:07.000 So you, like, more viral particles, you get infected.

02:37:09.000 The other way is, and this is what was happening with RSV, is it basically causes your immune system to become, like, more...

02:37:21.000 More dangerous and active and be more harmful after you're exposed to the virus where the vaccine is supposed to be protecting you from.

02:37:28.000 And for a long time, and I know I think Jason was involved in figuring this out, Dr. McLellan, that it's the post-fusion antibodies that you make.

02:37:47.000 The post-fusion ones are not as good at actually protecting you from the actual virus, but they kind of in some cases can even mask it or become harmful.

02:38:00.000 Anyways, they know now that the post-fusion antibodies play a big role in antibody-dependent enhancement.

02:38:05.000 And those are not antibodies that are being made in All the vaccines in the United States.

02:38:12.000 AstraZeneca didn't do this, 2-proline mutation change, but the vaccines that we're using in the United States are.

02:38:21.000 And so the antibody-dependent enhancement theory that's going to happen, that people that are vaccinated, they're all going to be really sick.

02:38:28.000 They're going to be sicker than people that just get the virus.

02:38:31.000 I haven't heard that.

02:38:32.000 Yeah, it's like a big one.

02:38:34.000 That misinformation.

02:38:36.000 It's misinformation that's like, you know, so for one, you'd be seeing the hospitals fill up with vaccine people and not unvaccinated, which is what we see.

02:38:43.000 But in Israel, they are filling up with vaccinated people.

02:38:47.000 Well, in Israel, it's mostly not vaccinated people that are filling the hospitals.

02:38:53.000 I don't think that's true right now.

02:38:55.000 I was reading something today about that, that the majority of the people that are hospitalized in Israel were vaccinated, and they're attributing that to the higher rate of vaccinations in Israel, and that the idea that these vaccines have a waning life of effectiveness So that after,

02:39:12.000 you know, six to seven months or however many months it is, that they're not as effective and then you're seeing people get sicker.

02:39:19.000 Yeah.

02:39:19.000 And that's been shown in Israel.

02:39:21.000 Israel showed this. 0.95

02:39:22.000 They had a breakthrough study that was published in New England Journal of Medicine.

02:39:24.000 They showed that basically...

02:39:26.000 You could take healthcare workers that were vaccinated and measure their antibody level, neutralizing antibody levels, like, a week before they became infected.

02:39:35.000 Or, like, you'd look at their antibody levels a week before they came down with a breakthrough infection.

02:39:40.000 And it predicted the breakthrough infection.

02:39:43.000 In other words, people with lower neutralizing antibodies were more likely to get this breakthrough infection.

02:39:49.000 And then another study was published by Miles Davenport Group, It was published in Nature Medicine, where he did some kind of modeling and found you had to have six times more neutralizing antibodies to protect from actually getting infection than from, like, you know,

02:40:04.000 being hospitalized as well.

02:40:06.000 And the Pfizer vaccine, so there was a huge study that came out of the Mayo Clinic, and this was, like, recent.

02:40:13.000 It was, like, multi-states.

02:40:15.000 25,000 people and one, I think, there were 25,000 people that were vaccinated.

02:40:23.000 And they looked at whether, oh, and 25,000 people that were unvaccinated.

02:40:29.000 And it was looking at, you know, effectiveness.

02:40:30.000 Effectivity of the vaccine.

02:40:31.000 So in other words, protecting you from actually getting the infection and then like protecting from severity, so hospitalizations.

02:40:38.000 And so this is with the Delta variant because everything's changed now with Delta variant, right?

02:40:43.000 I mean, like these vaccines were much more effective at preventing infections with the Alpha variant being dominant, which was the dominant one before July.

02:40:50.000 How do they know when you get infected if you have a Delta variant?

02:40:52.000 Because the friends that I've had that have gotten sick with COVID, particularly ones that have already been vaccinated that got sick afterwards, they didn't test for what variant.

02:41:02.000 They just tested whether or not they're positive.

02:41:04.000 Yeah.

02:41:05.000 I mean, some places aren't doing that, but you'd have to do a PCR test.

02:41:08.000 All of my friends.

02:41:08.000 All of my friends that tested positive after they've been vaccinated.

02:41:12.000 Yeah.

02:41:12.000 I think now, because the Delta variant is so much more transmissible, it's taken over.

02:41:18.000 They just assume that it's a Delta variant.

02:41:20.000 Exactly.

02:41:21.000 They just assume because it's pretty much taken over.

02:41:24.000 But with that study, they showed the Pfizer vaccine went from being 80% to 95% effective at preventing infections to 42%.

02:41:35.000 So there's a drop in that.

02:41:39.000 The Moderna vaccine was actually much better. 0.56

02:41:40.000 It dropped down to 77% effective.

02:41:44.000 The side effects of the Moderna were a little stronger as well, right?

02:41:48.000 Because the Moderna conferred more of the spike protein and it made your body more resilient to the virus, but it also gave you harsher side effects.

02:41:58.000 Is that the case?

02:41:59.000 So I don't know if the Moderna, I mean, I don't know why that would be, other than that, like maybe eliciting a stronger immune response.

02:42:06.000 The Moderna vaccine has three times the amount of mRNA in it than Pfizer.

02:42:12.000 Three times.

02:42:13.000 About so, yeah.

02:42:14.000 About three times.

02:42:16.000 But, like, getting back to that, you know, with the transmission and looking at, you know, overall transmission, like, even aside from something called onward transmission, there's two types of transmission.

02:42:28.000 Like, the vaccines are protecting...

02:42:31.000 People from getting this virus because there's still some effectiveness of them.

02:42:36.000 They are.

02:42:36.000 It's reduced, but like when you have, you know, it's still, you know, 40% of the people that have the Pfizer X amount of months later, again, neutralizing antibodies probably play a role in that, you know, if you have more, if you're younger.

02:42:49.000 So there's all sorts of studies showing that older people make less neutralizing antibodies with vaccines.

02:42:57.000 And also time.

02:42:58.000 Of course, they wane over time.

02:42:59.000 But there's lots of studies showing that people in the hospitals are older, of course, the ones getting the breakthrough infections.

02:43:04.000 And so these vaccines are still preventing overall transmission.

02:43:10.000 They're preventing overall transmission.

02:43:12.000 Well, if people are getting sick while they're vaccinated, and if the vaccinated people can still spread the virus, how are they preventing?

02:43:20.000 So there's overall transmission.

02:43:22.000 The reducing?

02:43:23.000 Are you saying they're reducing transmission?

02:43:25.000 I'm saying it's still, for the overall transmission, yes, it's reducing.

02:43:30.000 Okay, so it's not preventing.

02:43:32.000 Sorry, no, it is not preventing.

02:43:34.000 It is reducing overall transmission.

02:43:38.000 There's also onward transmission and that's where a lot of this new stuff has come with Delta where there's been some, you know, the CDC put out some data and then there was a study, a big study out of the UK where they measured peak viral levels in vaccinated people and compared it to unvaccinated.

02:43:57.000 And peak viral levels were the same in terms of, you know, how much virus they were shedding.

02:44:03.000 But The virus basically, you know, it's replicating for a number of days and you're shedding for a number of days.

02:44:10.000 It's not just peak.

02:44:11.000 It's not just the first, you know, few days.

02:44:14.000 It continues on.

02:44:15.000 And so a Singapore study looked at that.

02:44:17.000 They looked at, this was, you know, not a huge study, but this was with the Delta variant.

02:44:22.000 And they saw that while the initial levels of virus were the same in both vaccinated and unvaccinated, vaccinated people cleared it quicker.

02:44:29.000 They cleared it faster.

02:44:30.000 So they weren't shedding for as long of a time.

02:44:42.000 It's a real-time study.

02:44:56.000 Vaccinated people have less viral, this is with Delta, they have less viral load than unvaccinated, which is what you expect if vaccinated people are clearing it quicker.

02:45:06.000 So there is even some evidence to suggest that even with Delta variant, vaccinated people are somewhat still even affecting onward transmission as well.

02:45:16.000 In other words, you know, preventing the transmission through just your infectiousness, making other people sick.

02:45:23.000 But if there's these issues that you were talking about with people that even have very mild cases, that they're developing these problems with brain matter and all these different issues, these are still happening to people who are vaccinated who get COVID, right?

02:45:37.000 I don't know.

02:45:38.000 I don't know.

02:45:40.000 But this is one of the main reasons why it's a good idea to get vaccinated.

02:45:44.000 Wasn't that what you were saying?

02:45:46.000 It's a reason.

02:45:47.000 To prevent infection, but if...

02:45:50.000 It's a reason on the individual level.

02:45:54.000 It's like, okay, well, do you want to be exposed to the virus without being vaccinated?

02:45:57.000 Or do you want to be exposed to being vaccinated?

02:46:00.000 And maybe not even get it.

02:46:01.000 It's a gamble, right?

02:46:02.000 I mean, you're going to be exposed.

02:46:03.000 So either you're going to be vaccinated and not get it, or you might get it with Delta.

02:46:08.000 Or you can be unvaccinated and not get it, too.

02:46:13.000 That's not going to be the case for like, unless you're a hermit and never, you know, it's eventually going to. 0.67

02:46:18.000 I've been exposed to it many times and I haven't gotten it.

02:46:21.000 You don't have any antibodies against any?

02:46:23.000 No, I never got any bodies.

02:46:24.000 I did have a higher level of monocytes.

02:46:26.000 I got tested, my blood tested and showed that I had gotten over some sort of a viral infection.

02:46:33.000 I'd beaten it off.

02:46:34.000 Well, I don't know.

02:46:35.000 It sounds like you're either an outlier or maybe you did have it and it just hasn't been detected yet.

02:46:40.000 Well, there was a couple of days where everybody around me got it and a couple of days of my workouts felt really shitty.

02:46:46.000 And I just took it real easy.

02:46:47.000 And I continued the same stuff that I always do in terms of my protocol, like with the sauna and all the other stuff that I do and vitamins and supplementation.

02:46:58.000 And my whole family got it.

02:47:00.000 I never got it.

02:47:01.000 Well, you know, obviously there's people that are going to get this that are going to have hardly anything and maybe not even know it.

02:47:07.000 I mean, that's happening.

02:47:08.000 But I got my antibodies tested and had all those things done.

02:47:11.000 I don't know.

02:47:12.000 I got tested every day for COVID. I have no idea.

02:47:15.000 I mean, you know, go for the nucleocapsid protein.

02:47:19.000 Get that tested because that would be more, I think, indicative.

02:47:22.000 And that is a blood test?

02:47:23.000 You can get that from Quest, I believe.

02:47:25.000 It's either Quest or LabCorp.

02:47:26.000 I think it's Quest.

02:47:27.000 It's nucleocapsid.

02:47:29.000 But I mean, even aside from that, you know, like...

02:47:32.000 If you have something that can, like, you know, you don't want the hospitals to fill, the ICUs to fill up.

02:47:37.000 Of course.

02:47:37.000 No, no, no, of course.

02:47:39.000 Here's another question.

02:47:40.000 If the effectiveness wanes of the vaccine over six months or however much time it is, And you need a booster.

02:47:49.000 Do we have any information or any data as to what the effects of the booster is?

02:47:53.000 If we have the information about the second dose of the mRNA vaccine being more difficult for some people to tolerate, they have more difficult side effects.

02:48:05.000 Do we have any data about what a third shot is going to be like or possibly a fourth or ongoing?

02:48:11.000 And is there a point in time where it's going to be detrimental to your health to continue getting booster shots?

02:48:20.000 I have no idea.

02:48:22.000 I have no idea.

02:48:22.000 Is that the road that we're getting on?

02:48:37.000 Elderly people, and maybe those people with the four comorbidities or two or whatever it is, any comorbidities probably, those people are, you know, what we're seeing in hospitals right now, most of them are people that are immunocompromised or older.

02:48:52.000 And they might benefit because they have a lot to lose if they get COVID. They have a lot to lose.

02:48:59.000 They have their life, potentially, right?

02:49:00.000 So there may be an argument for people to get a booster.

02:49:05.000 At that age.

02:49:07.000 I'm not sure there's an argument for people like myself to get a booster.

02:49:12.000 Now, but what about in 10 months?

02:49:14.000 What about in a year?

02:49:15.000 Or even in a year.

02:49:18.000 At some point, the vaccine, well, I don't know.

02:49:21.000 It depends.

02:49:22.000 Is there a lot of I don't know going on here with this stuff?

02:49:25.000 For the boosters?

02:49:26.000 For all of it.

02:49:27.000 Well, for the original data, we've got the original clinical trial with 75,000 people with both mRNA vaccines.

02:49:34.000 Right, but it lasted for like four months, right?

02:49:36.000 There's phase one, phase two, phase three.

02:49:38.000 Right, but initially the thought was you are never going to get COVID if you've been vaccinated and you're not going to spread it.

02:49:46.000 I mean, this is what Fauci had constantly espoused.

02:49:48.000 This was the thing that they were saying.

02:49:50.000 Now they've changed it.

02:49:51.000 Yes, because we have a new variant.

02:49:53.000 Is it only because of the new variant, or is it because of the waning of the original vaccine's effectiveness?

02:49:59.000 Maybe both.

02:50:01.000 Probably both, to be honest.

02:50:03.000 I do think that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that neutralizing antibody levels can predict whether or not you get the SARS-CoV-2 infection.

02:50:13.000 In fact, if you look and compare at people that have had natural immunity, Yeah, I think.

02:50:34.000 Three, four times less likely to get it.

02:50:36.000 They're like superhuman in a way.

02:50:38.000 Having natural immunity plus the vaccine.

02:50:41.000 But also people that have had natural infections and then have the vaccine have a much higher likelihood of getting an adverse side effect.

02:50:49.000 Do they?

02:50:49.000 Yes.

02:50:50.000 A good friend of mine who's an elite athlete got infected with COVID. It was nothing.

02:50:57.000 He breezed through it.

02:50:58.000 And then he got vaccinated and he was wrecked for 11 days.

02:51:02.000 I personally don't, and this is probably controversial, but I don't, I think, you know, an individual has to decide and, you know, the CDC is saying people that have had natural immunity should get vaccinated, but I don't see any reason why they have to.

02:51:14.000 To be honest, unless they're just terrified and don't want to get it and maybe they have that four times comorbidity or something like that.

02:51:23.000 In all fairness, he's the only one that I know that had an adverse side effect that was also vaccinated and had COVID. All the other friends that I've had that were vaccinated after they had COVID had no problems.

02:51:35.000 But he had a bad one.

02:51:36.000 He had massive fluid buildup in his body.

02:51:40.000 Again, it's not zero risk.

02:51:41.000 People are having adverse effects, but there's so many hundreds of millions of people that have had it.

02:51:47.000 We know about myocarditis from mRNA vaccines.

02:51:49.000 We know about that because of the VAERS data.

02:51:52.000 We know about the blood clotting from the adenoviral vector vaccines, including Johnson& Johnson.

02:51:59.000 I mean, AstraZeneca is not used here, but You know, this is stuff like we know about these side effects.

02:52:06.000 They're still rare.

02:52:07.000 What do you think about prophylactic use of certain medications?

02:52:11.000 Like the big and the most controversial one is Ivermectin, of course.

02:52:16.000 They use it in Argentina with critical care workers and they use it prophylactically and they had a very high success rate with using it prophylactically.

02:52:28.000 And there's some real controversy because there's no real studies.

02:52:31.000 There was something that just came out recently out of India and India's use of ivermectin, but there's not something that there's like real rock-hard data that you can show that points to the effectiveness of it.

02:52:43.000 But you have like the frontline critical COVID care workers who, you know, like Pierre Corey, Dr. Pierre Corey, who's promoting the use of ivermectin and many other people that also have shown they've had good use of it.

02:52:56.000 But it's very controversial, right?

02:52:58.000 Like a lot of people don't even want to prescribe it.

02:53:01.000 A lot of doctors, they don't even want to hear about it.

02:53:06.000 So I have done a lot of sort of trying to read the, like, I don't have the anecdotal evidence that Dr. Pierre Corey has in treating frontline COVID patients.

02:53:18.000 I don't have any of that anecdotal evidence, none of it.

02:53:20.000 So all I can do is look at data and data that's, you know, either preprint or data that actually has been peer reviewed and published.

02:53:31.000 And what I see, and I mostly see that a lot of people doing this on websites.

02:53:36.000 They're, like, aggregating all this data and putting it together.

02:53:38.000 But there's, like, some major, major problems with the way they're showing the data.

02:53:44.000 That is, like, it's a big concern.

02:53:47.000 The one is that, you know, people are using different, obviously, doses, but there are different co-interventions with both the treatment group and the control group.

02:53:56.000 So you have people getting ivermectin, or you have people getting ivermectin and azithromycin, or you have people getting ivermectin and doxycycline, or you have people getting ivermectin, you know, azithromycin, they're getting, like, anticoagulants in some cases, they're getting vitamin C,

02:54:13.000 they're getting the kitchen sink, okay?

02:54:15.000 And then you have the control groups.

02:54:17.000 Very considerably.

02:54:18.000 They're getting, you know, maybe in some cases, in the best case, a placebo, or they're getting, you know, the standard of care treatment, or they're getting hydroxychloroquine, or they're getting hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.

02:54:29.000 Okay?

02:54:30.000 So you have a bunch of different treatments and co-treatments happening with each group.

02:54:34.000 And you have people aggregating all those together.

02:54:38.000 And that's just part A. Part B is you have different endpoints being measured.

02:54:45.000 You have like time till negative real-time PCR. So like basically viral clearance, right?

02:54:51.000 When you get negative.

02:54:52.000 You have people looking at hospitalizations.

02:54:53.000 You have people looking at mortality.

02:54:55.000 You have people looking at, what's another one?

02:54:58.000 Okay, the prophylactic endpoints.

02:55:01.000 And then people just like aggregating stuff together.

02:55:03.000 Oh, there's an improvement.

02:55:04.000 And they're aggregating all these studies together.

02:55:08.000 And then the other problem is that you have, and it's kind of something you alluded to, is that you have small, small sample sizes in such case that the incidence of something is going to be so small because the sample population is so small.

02:55:20.000 So I'll give you an example.

02:55:22.000 Like, you have 50 people in one group and you have 64 in another group.

02:55:33.000 Right.

02:55:46.000 Not only that, and I think this is what's putting people off.

02:55:49.000 You said doctors and stuff.

02:55:50.000 There is a huge overstatement for whatever reason.

02:55:57.000 Maybe it's because people have anecdotal...

02:55:59.000 Maybe they're treating patients like, I know this works.

02:56:01.000 Maybe they're passionate about it because of that.

02:56:03.000 Or maybe there's also people that are pretty much just not wanting...

02:56:08.000 They think vaccines are harmful and they want to find something else they can champion.

02:56:13.000 So I think...

02:56:15.000 They're doing harm to the ivermectin world by sensationalizing it and making it like this miracle thing. 0.98

02:56:20.000 Because it is doing harm.

02:56:22.000 And I had a knee-jerk reaction at first.

02:56:25.000 It was like, oh, no, I know this is like, you can't say something's 99% effective.

02:56:29.000 Like, no clinical trial known to human history has ever shown something 99% effective.

02:56:34.000 Right?

02:56:34.000 So that was like a red flag.

02:56:37.000 But, you know, so there's a couple of things here.

02:56:40.000 There's therapeutic treatment with ivermectin.

02:56:42.000 And then there's prophylactic, right?

02:56:44.000 Taking it if you know you've been exposed, in which case I think is a little more reasonable than like, I'm going to take it instead of a vaccine, in which case there is no evidence that ivermectin is going to protect you from getting it like a vaccine or prevent you from being hospitalized by vaccine.

02:56:59.000 There's certainly, I don't even know if there's any evidence on Delta variant.

02:57:01.000 This is a different variant.

02:57:03.000 This is different.

02:57:03.000 We don't even know, what is ivermectin doing now?

02:57:05.000 We've had to change the whole gang with vaccines.

02:57:08.000 So that's another issue, but My opinion is that when I look at all the data, I see like, you know, you'll see like, again, it's like all over the place.

02:57:17.000 They're using this and that.

02:57:18.000 But just forget all that.

02:57:19.000 And, you know, it seems to me like there's huge variation in, you know, things like mortality.

02:57:26.000 Which makes sense.

02:57:26.000 I would think something like this would be more effective if you give it earlier on and you're preventing from, you know, severe hospitalization or something like that.

02:57:33.000 I think that's the idea behind it, along with monoclonal antibodies, which are now Regeneron.

02:57:38.000 Now Regeneron's not even working as well against the Delta.

02:57:41.000 So these treatments...

02:57:42.000 Really?

02:57:42.000 Yeah.

02:57:42.000 But here's the thing that I noticed that was consistent with ivermectin.

02:57:46.000 It did seem to be, in almost every clinical trial, it seemed to shorten the time to a negative PCR rate.

02:57:53.000 In other words, Help clear the virus.

02:58:18.000 But there's really just a lack of studies.

02:58:20.000 Really a lack of solid studies.

02:58:22.000 And a problem of just, like, piling it all on and making these grandiose statements.

02:58:29.000 And to be honest, the prophylactic data, like, there was one study that got me excited.

02:58:33.000 It was in, like, 600 healthcare workers.

02:58:36.000 In Argentina?

02:58:36.000 No, this was the one in Egypt.

02:58:38.000 Oh, okay.

02:58:40.000 And that one got withdrawn because there was a falsification of data.

02:58:45.000 They were enrolling patients.

02:58:47.000 Patients had died, and they were enrolling them after they had died.

02:58:50.000 It's like, okay, that was not right.

02:58:53.000 So I do think, it is my opinion, I've known people, not knowing them personally, my family has friends That were taking ivermectin that was prescribed by a doctor.

02:59:04.000 By the way, taking animal-grade ivermectin is a huge...

02:59:07.000 Like, that could be bad because the dose is way off.

02:59:10.000 Way, way off.

02:59:11.000 And people are doing that and they're getting harmed.

02:59:13.000 Yeah, that's a strange thing, isn't it?

02:59:15.000 They did it with hydroxychloroquine, too.

02:59:17.000 People were doing that.

02:59:19.000 They were taking fish cleaner.

02:59:20.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:59:21.000 They were doing that.

02:59:22.000 But, again, I know people that were anti-vax and they were taking ivermectin and they ended up in the ICU. They ended up in the ICU from ivermectin?

02:59:32.000 No, with COVID. They got COVID and then it was like bad.

02:59:35.000 And they were taking animal grade?

02:59:37.000 No, they were taking ivermectin.

02:59:38.000 They had gotten ivermectin.

02:59:40.000 Were they taking the...

02:59:42.000 I don't know.

02:59:43.000 I mean, so, you know, there's the dose and, you know, but, you know, here's also, it is a safe drug.

02:59:49.000 Right.

02:59:50.000 But, you know, most of the times that it's used with our whole safety history is one to two days.

02:59:55.000 So that's what it's prescribed for, for all those things.

02:59:58.000 For river blindness and things along those lines.

03:00:00.000 And scabies.

03:00:00.000 Yeah.

03:00:00.000 So it's like, what effect does having it once a week have for multiple weeks?

03:00:05.000 I don't know.

03:00:06.000 I don't know, honestly.

03:00:07.000 Right.

03:00:08.000 We don't know.

03:00:09.000 We don't.

03:00:10.000 I personally think people should get vaccinated.

03:00:14.000 I think it's safe.

03:00:15.000 I think people should make that decision based on information.

03:00:18.000 I hope they choose to.

03:00:19.000 I'm not telling someone to do something, but I hope they choose to.

03:00:23.000 It is the safest way to protect yourself from this and also to help us get our society back to normal and also help not overwhelm ICUs because you don't want to get in a car accident or have a heart attack if the ICU is full.

03:00:34.000 It's bad, right?

03:00:36.000 We are at three hours.

03:00:38.000 Unfortunately, I've got a tight day today.

03:00:40.000 I've got to bail out of here.

03:00:41.000 There you have it.

03:00:42.000 Is there anything else?

03:00:43.000 Do you have any final thoughts on this?

03:00:47.000 I've got a lot of thoughts on it.

03:00:48.000 But I think we talked about some good.

03:00:52.000 We didn't talk about the fertility, but there's many studies that have come out showing it doesn't affect fertility.

03:00:58.000 What do you think about pregnant women getting it? 1.00

03:01:00.000 Well, there have been studies, large studies that have now been done with pregnant women getting it.

03:01:05.000 And, you know, I think it's bad to get SARS-CoV-2 if you're pregnant.

03:01:10.000 So I think a woman has to make the decision whether or not they're going to be exposed to it if they're working a job and have to be out. 1.00

03:01:18.000 Do you think there's any additional concerns about getting vaccinated while you're pregnant?

03:01:22.000 I think the data so far has suggested it seems to be okay, particularly when you compare it to getting SARS-CoV-2 while pregnant.

03:01:32.000 And that's pretty much the bottom line.

03:01:35.000 I am always, with pregnancy, in me, it's always kind of like the most conservative you could ever do.

03:01:41.000 And so that's my nature.

03:01:44.000 And again, I have that luxury because I don't have to go out and talk to people.

03:01:50.000 I can stay home and work.

03:01:51.000 And not interact with anyone.

03:01:53.000 If I were a grocery store worker, someone that's in the service industry or someone that's going to be exposed, I wouldn't want to get the SARS-CoV-2.

03:02:01.000 I wouldn't.

03:02:02.000 And there's been studies that it is harmful during pregnancy.

03:02:05.000 So, yeah.

03:02:09.000 That's a wrap.

03:02:10.000 Rhonda, you're awesome.

03:02:11.000 Thank you very much.

03:02:12.000 Let everybody know where they can get a hold of your podcast, find you on social media, all that good stuff.

03:02:18.000 Yeah, my podcast is on Spotify.

03:02:21.000 It's on Apple Podcasts.

03:02:23.000 Found My Fitness, all one word is the name.

03:02:25.000 I'm also on social media with all that stuff.

03:02:28.000 And my website, I have a JRE page.

03:02:31.000 It's called foundmyfitness.com forward slash JRE. It has timelines and notes to every podcast we did with references to a lot of the stuff talked about.

03:02:40.000 For all other nine of them and soon to be this one as well.

03:02:43.000 That's an insane amount of work to do all that.

03:02:45.000 Yeah.

03:02:46.000 But it's nice to have references.

03:02:47.000 People want to dive deeper.

03:02:48.000 It's amazing to have references.

03:02:50.000 So thank you very much for doing that because that's really cool of you.

03:02:53.000 And look at all those times we've talked.

03:02:55.000 Wow, way back to 4.59.

03:02:58.000 That's crazy.

03:02:59.000 That is crazy.

03:03:00.000 It's always a pleasure.

03:03:01.000 Thank you so much for being here.

03:03:02.000 I always appreciate your perspective and your information and all your research and everything.

03:03:06.000 Thank you, Joe.

03:03:07.000 Thank you very much.

03:03:08.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - August 25, 2021

Joe Rogan Experience #1701 - Rhonda Patrick

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript