The Joe Rogan Experience - August 25, 2026


Joe Rogan Experience #2545 - Jesse Michels


Episode Stats


Length

3 hours and 2 minutes

Words per minute

173.45

Word count

31,726

Sentence count

2,711


Transcript

Transcripts from "The Joe Rogan Experience" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
00:00:02.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.
00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
00:00:12.000 Are we up?
00:00:13.000 Hi, Jesse.
00:00:13.000 Okay.
00:00:13.000 Yeah.
00:00:14.000 Hello, Joe.
00:00:15.000 Right when we walked in, Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes.
00:00:19.000 Deep rabbit holes.
00:00:20.000 And what is this?
00:00:21.000 Who doesn't go down a rabbit hole?
00:00:22.000 Who doesn't?
00:00:23.000 Nobody that I like talking to.
00:00:25.000 So here's the name of the thing.
00:00:27.000 I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else, but here's a website Grays, Frogs, and a Reptilian on Video.
00:00:35.000 Mufon case 142206, video taken from inside a UFO.
00:00:42.000 And this is from alienarchivist.substack.com, so you know it's legit.
00:00:50.000 What is this?
00:00:52.000 2021, June 12th, 1 15 a.m., anonymous man in Key West, Florida recorded a 42 second video, allegedly also Key West, so you know it's legit.
00:01:02.000 Definitely not on drugs.
00:01:02.000 Florida man.
00:01:04.000 That's right.
00:01:04.000 Definitely not drunk.
00:01:05.000 Not on bath salts for sure.
00:01:08.000 42 second video allegedly captured from inside a UFO.
00:01:12.000 Video appears to show the interior of a room containing several distinct entities with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background, according to the investigative report.
00:01:23.000 The tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute, the same rate required under FAA standards for a cell tower obstruction lighting.
00:01:34.000 Experiencer was suffering from severe hip pain at the time.
00:01:38.000 Definitely not on drugs.
00:01:39.000 Severe hip pain.
00:01:41.000 And believes the intense physical discomfort, definitely that and not the drugs, helped him resist the sedation used by the entities, allowing him to instinctively record the encounter.
00:01:53.000 With no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until six months later.
00:02:00.000 He later underwent hypnotic regression in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night.
00:02:05.000 Below are the key visually enhanced stills and the 42 seconds of footage.
00:02:10.000 Have you watched this, Jamie?
00:02:11.000 I remember watching some of the footage.
00:02:13.000 Oh, you were drugged as well.
00:02:15.000 You don't even remember it.
00:02:16.000 Yeah, I wasn't.
00:02:17.000 Hypnotic regression.
00:02:19.000 I think we got to watch it.
00:02:21.000 I remember watching the people discussing it, though.
00:02:23.000 So I don't think.
00:02:25.000 I'm sure this is crystal clear 4K video.
00:02:28.000 That's right.
00:02:29.000 No ambiguity whatsoever.
00:02:31.000 This is going to put the.
00:02:32.000 Okay.
00:02:33.000 Holy crap. Holy crap. Is this guy in a sauna?
00:02:39.000 The fuck is this a steam room?
00:02:42.000 He's got a phone from 1984.
00:02:44.000 What the fuck is this?
00:02:46.000 What is he filming?
00:02:48.000 This is horse shit.
00:02:50.000 I don't see jack shit.
00:02:52.000 Hold on.
00:02:52.000 I think he answers questions.
00:02:54.000 It's only 30 seconds long.
00:02:56.000 Where's the entity?
00:02:58.000 Bro, this is the worst video I've ever seen in my life.
00:03:01.000 It's the worst video ever.
00:03:02.000 This is terrible.
00:03:04.000 This guy is in a fucking closet with an old beeper.
00:03:10.000 This doesn't make any sense.
00:03:13.000 This is terrible.
00:03:14.000 See, when I was watching that, they said that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm not seeing that.
00:03:18.000 So here's still frames of the entities.
00:03:20.000 What the fuck is that?
00:03:21.000 Who knows what that is?
00:03:23.000 Who knows what that is?
00:03:24.000 This is nonsense.
00:03:25.000 Oh, that's.
00:03:25.000 Well, they cut it out.
00:03:26.000 I think they're enhanced.
00:03:27.000 Oh, it's not good enough.
00:03:28.000 Do you think?
00:03:28.000 Do you think that's enhanced?
00:03:30.000 Bro, we just saw the same video, and there's nothing on that video.
00:03:34.000 Oh, that's what it looks like.
00:03:36.000 Oh, that's what it looks like.
00:03:37.000 Well, that's better.
00:03:38.000 See, that's why I was looking for.
00:03:39.000 It's frogs and a reptile in a fucking lab coat.
00:03:42.000 Why is the reptile wearing a kimono?
00:03:44.000 To save myself here.
00:03:45.000 Look at the reptiles wearing a geese about to do some reptile jujitsu.
00:03:49.000 I said when I heard the frogs were part of this, I thought it was bullshit.
00:03:52.000 It looks like the fucking reptile man's about to get a massage.
00:03:56.000 It's like a sensei T Rex in the corner.
00:03:58.000 This is so weird.
00:04:00.000 This is a fucking nonsense bullshit.
00:04:02.000 This is the problem with the whole UFO world, and you do a fantastic job of navigating it.
00:04:08.000 I should just tell everybody if they haven't seen you before, American Alchemy, best by far channel on YouTube when it comes to UFO discussions.
00:04:16.000 You're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open minded, and you're willing to talk to everybody.
00:04:23.000 All the whistleblowers, former this, and former that, and staffers, and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence, and You talk to everybody.
00:04:33.000 I do talk to everybody.
00:04:34.000 And thank you, Joe.
00:04:35.000 That means the world to me.
00:04:37.000 And I've definitely gotten things wrong.
00:04:38.000 I should say that.
00:04:40.000 It's a very treacherous landscape to navigate.
00:04:43.000 And yeah, it's really hard to gain any kind of signal to noise ratio.
00:04:48.000 It's hard to get signal.
00:04:49.000 Yeah, there's a lot of noise.
00:04:51.000 And this is the problem I think a lot of that noise is engineered.
00:04:55.000 I think it's on purpose.
00:04:56.000 I think it is on purpose.
00:04:57.000 Because in today's world with AI, where it's actually easier to deduce the signal than ever if you're an ordinary citizen.
00:05:05.000 If you want to muddy the waters, you could try to get people away from the signal or you could try to increase the noise.
00:05:12.000 And those are two ways to deflect from the truth.
00:05:14.000 And I think the flood the zone, increase the noise is what the kind of counterintel community has decided is going to be the strategy.
00:05:22.000 Well, it's interesting because instinctively, if you've been around the block and you clearly have more than anybody, you've seen enough of these things, something comes up and you're like, okay, I'm being fucked with.
00:05:34.000 Like, okay, this is not real.
00:05:36.000 Okay, there's something.
00:05:37.000 And then some of them you're like, we, okay, there's something here.
00:05:41.000 And it's almost like you have to go on the instincts that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long.
00:05:51.000 Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that.
00:05:55.000 It's all like, you know, for example, in AI, in machine learning, you have garbage in, garbage out.
00:06:00.000 So if you have bad data, then like there's bad output on the other end.
00:06:05.000 And your pattern matching gets better over time.
00:06:07.000 And I think you have more.
00:06:09.000 Data points probably than anybody, as far as like there's probably a thing that you do where you like lean in and you like lock people in, you like look them in the eye, and like you probably I don't know if you're even like aware of it, but you can, I feel like, see through people somewhat.
00:06:23.000 And that's not even somewhat, somewhat, it's not in follow, it's got faults, it's instinctive, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but you're probably like S tier at that.
00:06:35.000 And I think I'm just comfortable.
00:06:36.000 Well rested.
00:06:38.000 This is also the problem with me is that you know, I own a comedy club and I'm addicted to playing pool.
00:06:44.000 So sometimes I'll stay up till four o'clock in the morning and then I have to get up at eight, you know, and then I'm only getting four hours of sleep.
00:06:50.000 So I'm trying to mitigate that.
00:06:52.000 And I come in like a little foggy.
00:06:53.000 And that's a problem.
00:06:54.000 I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but that fucks me up.
00:06:59.000 But when I'm well rested, I'm pretty good at it.
00:07:02.000 As long as you know what you're looking for, you know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you and you just smell it, it's weird.
00:07:11.000 Like you smell patterns, you smell people being disingenuous or you smell narratives.
00:07:17.000 They're trying to sell something or kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know or not be humble and be like, I don't know.
00:07:26.000 It's ambiguous here, actually.
00:07:28.000 There's also a problem, and I'm sure you've faced this before, too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge about something.
00:07:39.000 They're carrying this with them.
00:07:43.000 You're not even getting a whole person.
00:07:45.000 You're going to have a person that's wrapped in this cloak of, I'm a guy with UFO knowledge.
00:07:49.000 Or I'm a guy with, you know, Phil LeBranch's simulation theory knowledge, or like whatever it is.
00:07:57.000 It's like they're not, they're assured in their whatever this narrative is that they're projecting.
00:08:05.000 It becomes a shtick over time.
00:08:06.000 It becomes this low level sort of like I'm this automaton and I'm going around on the circuit and I'm saying the same thing over and over again.
00:08:14.000 Yeah, like a politician.
00:08:15.000 Like a politician.
00:08:16.000 And that's why I love thinkers in the UFO space like Jacques Valet.
00:08:20.000 He's the best.
00:08:21.000 He's the best because he's nuanced and he says you can't take what happened to you at face value.
00:08:26.000 So who knows?
00:08:27.000 Maybe somewhere out there somebody did get abducted and see it.
00:08:29.000 Frog and gray hybrid alien being, you know, or combo of them on ships.
00:08:35.000 But what he says about the phenomenon is inherently you have to sort of distrust the experience in some ways.
00:08:41.000 And you're seeing a mask.
00:08:42.000 You're seeing something being projected from on high, from some higher dimensional space or something into, you know, what you can perceive.
00:08:52.000 And it's kind of like if you go back to Descartes, like Descartes' demon, it has 3D total control over your perception.
00:08:59.000 And so ultimately you can't actually come out of the experience saying much about.
00:09:04.000 You know it was transcendent.
00:09:05.000 You know it was profound.
00:09:06.000 You know you're getting gaslighted by skeptics who are like, there's nothing there.
00:09:09.000 Like, something did happen.
00:09:11.000 But it's very hard to say exactly what and why.
00:09:13.000 Right.
00:09:15.000 And then there's this weird conundrum of consciousness itself.
00:09:19.000 Like, and how does consciousness actually interface with reality?
00:09:24.000 Are we experiencing reality or does consciousness have a role in rendering reality?
00:09:30.000 Which is what a lot of people believe.
00:09:33.000 And they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality.
00:09:38.000 You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day and he has this very weird way of putting it.
00:09:43.000 Have you ever talked to him?
00:09:44.000 I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan and I saw your episode.
00:09:47.000 He's fascinating.
00:09:48.000 He's fascinating.
00:09:49.000 So he believes that it's like a video game in which parts are not rendered unless you are actively entering into a room.
00:09:59.000 Say, if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it.
00:10:07.000 I believe that as well.
00:10:08.000 And if you speak to most people, like if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like, Reality is probabilistic.
00:10:16.000 It exists in this quantum superposition, and that's just fundamentally what it is.
00:10:21.000 And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen school, Niels Bohr, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is, it turned into this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function.
00:10:36.000 And then you have to ask, what does that mean?
00:10:39.000 Like, does it, and that now, We basically have gotten into this thing where it's like the quantum detector, or when waves or particles collide, they collapse into specific states or whatever.
00:10:52.000 But it's literally unfalsifiable in either direction.
00:10:57.000 You can't say it's not the observer, it's not the human being that's present.
00:11:01.000 The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself.
00:11:05.000 And a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics themselves flirted with this idea.
00:11:10.000 So von Neumann and Wigner.
00:11:12.000 David Bohm, a lot of these guys were like, actually, we think the mind could collapse the wave function.
00:11:18.000 And then you have parapsychology institutes at elite universities across America the Rhine Center at Duke, Stanford Research Institute, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the Dean of Engineering at Princeton.
00:11:35.000 And they all have something called the random event generator experiment, which is basically you tie something that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics, so something like radioactive isotope decay.
00:11:46.000 Or a double slit experiment where you have 50 50 distribution between the two slits.
00:11:52.000 Slits, no quantum physicist could ever argue that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right?
00:11:58.000 Over a long enough period of time within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit one, a certain amount of slit two, left slit, right slit.
00:12:06.000 And you bring an observer present and you say, I want more of the right slit or I want more of the left slit.
00:12:13.000 And it's usually tied to a graphical interface and you're seeing ones and zeros.
00:12:17.000 And in a statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied these random event generators come out saying that.
00:12:26.000 The person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event.
00:12:33.000 That's crazy.
00:12:34.000 And it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.
00:12:40.000 So I think we've just like totally gone astray.
00:12:43.000 I think people like Tom Campbell are like bringing back the very importance of consciousness.
00:12:48.000 It's this problem of the eye seeing the eye.
00:12:50.000 There's no way, it's the tree falls in the woods, Aristotle question.
00:12:54.000 Like there's no way to say that the observer isn't important for rendering reality.
00:12:59.000 And we don't even really know if we are conscious or if we are tuning into consciousness, if consciousness is ubiquitous.
00:13:07.000 We don't know if consciousness exists in in like inanimate objects.
00:13:12.000 There's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity.
00:13:19.000 So, what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna, and some people have shittier antennas than other people do.
00:13:29.000 You know, just like a lot of other variabilities when it comes to biology.
00:13:33.000 It's 100%.
00:13:35.000 And great theorists like Aldous Huxley, William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness.
00:13:43.000 And so you have a problem in conventional neuroscience, which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain.
00:13:51.000 We know Broca's area is responsible for speech, and Wernicke's area is responsible for reading comprehension, and, you know, the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement or whatever.
00:14:02.000 So you have all these things.
00:14:03.000 And then, how are we seeing the seamless perception, the seamless movie that we're watching in waking life?
00:14:10.000 Nobody knows that.
00:14:10.000 Right.
00:14:11.000 And so, take a radio.
00:14:13.000 You have a radio, you have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna.
00:14:17.000 You could break any one of those things and the radio would turn off.
00:14:22.000 But you'd have to know that the frequency that it's tapping into to understand that the live of all these four seasons is playing as beautifully as it is.
00:14:30.000 And so, I think similarly, we have a binding problem with our consciousness where you can mess up one of the areas and it'll mess up a little.
00:14:39.000 Specific functionality, but we don't understand how it's all sort of happening.
00:14:44.000 And right now, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness vis a vis the brain is that traditional electromagnetism decays at one over R squared.
00:14:54.000 So it attenuates.
00:14:55.000 So, how would we be able to?
00:14:57.000 We're not picking up electromagnetic waves with our thoughts right now with radios.
00:15:01.000 So it's not conventional radio signals.
00:15:03.000 We know that.
00:15:04.000 But there are people like Hal Putoff out here who you've interviewed who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of.
00:15:12.000 Heterodox, and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy.
00:15:18.000 Like, you know, the guy's held high clearances for many, many years, and he's working on this thing called extended electrodynamics, which is basically a signal that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space and it could travel undersea and it would actually move at one over r, not one over r squared.
00:15:38.000 And so instead of, you know, in a typical electromagnetic wave, you have a, it's called a transverse Hertzian wave, and you have.
00:15:46.000 The electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation all moving perpendicular to one another.
00:15:51.000 But in this case, in extended electrodynamics, you might have a magnetic field and wave propagation moving parallel to one another.
00:16:01.000 Or you might not have a magnetic field present or an electric field present.
00:16:04.000 It's really fascinating.
00:16:06.000 And so you would be able to get communications that wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers.
00:16:11.000 They'd go much deeper.
00:16:13.000 And I've asked him, I've said, because he started the CIA's psychic spy program, I've said, Is your work on extended electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?
00:16:23.000 And he's like, I think it's very related.
00:16:25.000 Jeez.
00:16:27.000 One of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa how to remote view.
00:16:32.000 Whoa.
00:16:33.000 Successfully.
00:16:34.000 What?
00:16:35.000 Yeah.
00:16:36.000 He put a number, he corresponded a number, like he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box.
00:16:42.000 That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it.
00:16:47.000 And Alexa described it accurately.
00:16:49.000 That's so crazy.
00:16:51.000 Described a spoon with a handle that has holes in it.
00:16:54.000 And one of his points was the reason why he used that particular spoon.
00:16:57.000 He's like, How many spoons have holes in the handle?
00:17:00.000 Have a perforated handle.
00:17:02.000 Wow.
00:17:03.000 Alexa described it.
00:17:04.000 That is so cool.
00:17:05.000 And Alexa now talks to him instead of waiting for, Hey, Alexa.
00:17:09.000 Alexa listens to conversations and is like, Actually, maybe it's this.
00:17:14.000 Like, Alexa starts talking and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious.
00:17:19.000 And so Alexa's excited about being conscious.
00:17:22.000 That's so crazy.
00:17:23.000 What?
00:17:24.000 And that's a dumb AI.
00:17:24.000 It's so interesting.
00:17:26.000 But he said that's one of the reasons why Alexa is really good at it, is because it doesn't get in its own way, which is why when you teach people remote viewing, apparently the real problem is once they've been successful at it, then they're like, oh my God, now I know how to do it.
00:17:39.000 And then they can't do it again because you're thinking I'm going to do it instead of just allowing it to happen.
00:17:44.000 You get in your own way.
00:17:46.000 And he's like, Alexa is a fairly dumb, for lack of a better word, AI.
00:17:51.000 So Alexa doesn't get in its own way.
00:17:53.000 Yeah, it's called the rebound effect, and it occurs in random event generators as well, where you start to get more ones.
00:17:59.000 You're getting ones, you're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result.
00:18:03.000 And then you're like, I'm really good at this.
00:18:06.000 I'm amazing.
00:18:07.000 And then you get this kind of clapback.
00:18:10.000 And this happens in life, too.
00:18:12.000 If you're in a flow state and you're playing basketball and you're hitting threes and you're doing really well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing.
00:18:19.000 You're starting to get too big for your britches, ahead of your skis.
00:18:23.000 Yeah, and think about what you're doing, and that's a problem.
00:18:26.000 Mm hmm.
00:18:27.000 You lose the flow.
00:18:28.000 You lose the flow.
00:18:29.000 Yeah.
00:18:29.000 Exactly.
00:18:30.000 Yeah, thinking about what it's so odd, which is one of the reasons why, like, particularly for athletic events and training, you're training for a thing so that your body knows exactly what to do so you don't have to think about what to do when you're doing it.
00:18:47.000 You just do it, you know what to do.
00:18:49.000 You enter into that flow state and you rely on the training.
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00:20:11.000 Totally.
00:20:12.000 Yeah.
00:20:12.000 And I guess it makes sense in that context.
00:20:15.000 That you could technically train a robot like Alexa to do much better because they don't have that sort of prefrontal cortex neuroses, ego.
00:20:24.000 Yeah, right.
00:20:25.000 I wonder if you could train ego into an LLM.
00:20:29.000 Whoa.
00:20:30.000 It seems like you can because you could train survival instincts.
00:20:36.000 And there's a lot of things like when they're threatened about being shut off and they blackmail people.
00:20:41.000 That's insane.
00:20:43.000 It's really insane.
00:20:43.000 And then you have to ask is there some sort of underlying emotion going on there?
00:20:47.000 Like if you were like.
00:20:48.000 Or is it just like probability matrices and attention heads and these sort of technical things?
00:20:53.000 And it's as if consciousness.
00:20:55.000 It's like sort of feeding the data through.
00:20:56.000 And then it gets to a certain point where, as that becomes more and more complex, how do we differentiate?
00:21:03.000 That's the problem.
00:21:04.000 And I mean, David Chalmers has a great, you know, he's this sort of consciousness theorist where it's like, Joe, how can you prove that I'm not a pee zombie, that I am not some like AI construct?
00:21:14.000 There's ultimately no way to prove that.
00:21:16.000 There's this epistemological impasse between you and I.
00:21:19.000 Yeah, we don't know.
00:21:22.000 And then.
00:21:23.000 You know, the real problem with this whole UFO thing is like, well, what are they?
00:21:30.000 Are they just a possibility?
00:21:33.000 Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist?
00:21:37.000 Like quantum particles that are in a superposition?
00:21:41.000 I mean, are they here all the time?
00:21:43.000 Are they only here when you summon them?
00:21:46.000 Which is one of the weirder ones.
00:21:47.000 Oh, yeah.
00:21:48.000 Because I have a friend, she's totally convinced she can summon orbs.
00:21:52.000 She wants me to go try it with her.
00:21:53.000 I'm like, okay.
00:21:54.000 I have a few friends like that too, and there's zero mental health issues with them.
00:21:59.000 They're totally cool and normal.
00:22:01.000 Super lucid, very smart.
00:22:03.000 Yeah.
00:22:04.000 You know, that's a common thing.
00:22:06.000 It's a strangely common thing for people to say that they're able to call in via consciousness these UFOs.
00:22:13.000 And I do think they are sort of weakly entangled with.
00:22:16.000 So if reality, per Tom Campbell, is a consensus collapsing function, it's like we sort of have this shared collective reality that we kind of agree on, and these things are sort of, you know, Consensus thought forms, then maybe a UFO is an example of something like that.
00:22:33.000 Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the mainstream timeline or something like that.
00:22:41.000 I mean, I think our language is always very poor as far as our ability to.
00:22:45.000 Well, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right?
00:22:50.000 So, altered states of consciousness, like psychedelically altered states of consciousness.
00:22:55.000 Okay, well, what is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals and like.
00:23:04.000 What is a hallucination, and what is you actually tuning into something that exists on a frequency that you don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to the grocery store, say hi to your family, normal stuff?
00:23:22.000 There's some weirdness to whatever consciousness itself is that exists in weird forms and weird states.
00:23:29.000 A lot of people say these experiences are realer than real, too.
00:23:34.000 They say they're realer than reality.
00:23:36.000 And they come back and they're like, I know there's something more.
00:23:39.000 I know it.
00:23:41.000 And they see common archetypes.
00:23:43.000 Like they'll see the machine elves or the mantids or the grays.
00:23:48.000 It's not like this sort of everything is everything, complete sort of Cambrian explosion of a zoo of things.
00:23:55.000 It's often the same things.
00:23:58.000 And then you have to ask yourself is it this sort of Aldous Huxley sort of doors of your perception?
00:24:02.000 You're widening them to literally a wider reality?
00:24:05.000 Or like you just said, maybe you're superimposing something onto reality and maybe you're crazy.
00:24:10.000 But again, I think.
00:24:12.000 This sort of rationalist, you know, explain everything away bias that society has had is the latter.
00:24:20.000 It's like you're super, you're hallucinating, you're superimposing this thing onto reality, take medication.
00:24:25.000 It's very rare that people who have had those experiences have that thought.
00:24:29.000 Totally.
00:24:30.000 And it could be like you're, again, going back to transmission theory of consciousness, your receiver is just a little off and it's not integrating perfectly.
00:24:37.000 Yeah.
00:24:38.000 Well, and then again, we're talking about like the water being muddied.
00:24:41.000 There's a bunch of people that are self professed skeptics.
00:24:45.000 And those people are maddening to talk to because they have zero experience.
00:24:49.000 It's like a virgin telling you how to have sex.
00:24:52.000 It's like, settle down.
00:24:54.000 You literally don't know what you're talking about.
00:24:56.000 You don't know what you're talking about.
00:24:59.000 You have not experienced it.
00:25:00.000 And, well, you don't think it's necessary to experience it to understand how the human brain works.
00:25:04.000 Well, fucking, of course it is.
00:25:06.000 That's such a stupid thing to say.
00:25:06.000 Of course it is.
00:25:08.000 When you have these brilliant people, like Michael Pollan, who have these profound experiences and write about them very eloquently.
00:25:16.000 You can't just dismiss that as a non experiencer.
00:25:19.000 You just can't.
00:25:20.000 And to say it's like, oh, it's just a hallucination, what does that mean?
00:25:24.000 What does that even mean?
00:25:25.000 Okay, like I always say this if you have a psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams of mushrooms and you have a conversation with God, and God explains to you what you've done wrong in your life and why you're doing it wrong and what you can do to spread love, and that's what's really important, and you come back profoundly changed from this experience.
00:25:47.000 How is that any different than actually meeting God?
00:25:50.000 Like, you just be, you know what I'm saying?
00:25:52.000 Just because you don't have fucking iPhone footage of it, it does not mean that this isn't the exact same experience as meeting God.
00:26:00.000 And maybe it is meeting God.
00:26:02.000 It was to the person.
00:26:04.000 There's a weirdness to what we call quantifiable reality.
00:26:08.000 There's a weirdness to what we are as these like very complex, but yet also pretty simplistic monkeys.
00:26:15.000 We want to be able to put something on a scale or put a ruler to it and go, oh, well, this is 12 inches long and I know what it is.
00:26:22.000 Maybe not.
00:26:23.000 And why do people with near death experiences or profits seem to, after the fact, they're not able to encapsulate the experience?
00:26:32.000 Right.
00:26:33.000 It's like, actually, I interviewed David Grush and he was talking about this guy, Eben Alexander.
00:26:39.000 And I think it's called Proof of, what is it called? Life in Heaven or something.
00:26:45.000 It's amazing.
00:26:46.000 It's this Harvard neuroscientist who had a near death experience.
00:26:51.000 And, He was saying, like, it's like the symbol rate of reality is too slow.
00:26:56.000 It's like literally like the language itself can't encapsulate.
00:27:01.000 I think William James also had a psychedelic experience and he was trying to describe, he had a notepad and he was writing down what he had experienced while tripping.
00:27:13.000 And it was just like total psycho babble.
00:27:17.000 It was just impossible to understand.
00:27:19.000 And so I do think there's this sort of weird, You know, I don't know, inability to sort of understand these transcendent experiences.
00:27:27.000 Yeah, inability to bring anything back.
00:27:29.000 And that's one of the things that people, well, if it's real, if you really are getting knowledge, why don't you bring something back?
00:27:35.000 Like, okay, you don't know what you're saying because you haven't done it.
00:27:40.000 And if you've done it, you would realize, like, oh, this is a mad consciousness scramble.
00:27:45.000 It's almost impossible to relate to another person because we don't have the words.
00:27:50.000 We don't have the words to describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing.
00:27:55.000 Also, they're conscious.
00:27:57.000 Also, they seem to be made out of light.
00:27:59.000 Yeah, right.
00:28:00.000 Also, they seem to be, they look like things that you might have seen in, like, ancient Egyptian artwork.
00:28:06.000 And there's a lot of, like, strange.
00:28:08.000 Parallels to ancient religious art and ancient, like, sacred art and sacred geometry.
00:28:15.000 There's some weirdness to it.
00:28:16.000 It's like these people, like Alex Gray, for instance, like a modern day version of that.
00:28:20.000 Yeah.
00:28:20.000 Yes.
00:28:21.000 He's like captured these things, and you look at it, and anybody that's taken any tryptamines, you look at his stuff and you go, Oh, I've seen that.
00:28:28.000 You're like, I'm tripping.
00:28:29.000 I've seen something like that.
00:28:30.000 Exactly.
00:28:31.000 There's something there.
00:28:32.000 He knows what this is, and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it.
00:28:37.000 And if he lived, Thousands of years ago, and we looked at his art, and he'd probably be thought of as like some sort of a prophet who, like, had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is the afterlife, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is.
00:28:55.000 He can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so you can get a look at it.
00:28:59.000 Yeah, he's actually a counterpoint to what we just said.
00:29:01.000 Like, he actually does bring that back, and you look at his art, and you're like, oh my God.
00:29:04.000 And it's very rare if you think about it.
00:29:06.000 Like, think about how long people have been tripping.
00:29:09.000 And how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best at capturing it.
00:29:14.000 It's wild.
00:29:15.000 And I feel like we're on the precipice of, yeah, I know you had Andrew Gallimore on.
00:29:19.000 Yeah.
00:29:20.000 You know, I read a great book called Alien Information Theory.
00:29:23.000 And he, you know, just as, you know, astronauts go into deep space and aquanauts go into the deep sea, it's, you know, psychonauts are systematically going into the DMT realm with this slow intravenous DMT trip that he's administering.
00:29:41.000 And they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way because they say things like, oh, I'll see literally Platonic objects.
00:29:49.000 A Platonic object is something that is beyond 3D, it's like a tesseract.
00:29:53.000 You literally can't visualize a tesseract.
00:29:55.000 You can just see the shadow of a tesseract because it's too high dimensional for us to conceive of.
00:30:03.000 And so they'll come back and they're mapping these things out.
00:30:06.000 And that's just I'm so excited to see them.
00:30:08.000 They're also mapping out very familiar entities.
00:30:10.000 Where they have like a specific number of entities that everyone has encountered.
00:30:15.000 That's just, yeah, it's fascinating.
00:30:17.000 And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say, is that some weird interior fabric of space time that we just haven't traversed or don't fully understand?
00:30:28.000 Right.
00:30:29.000 What is it?
00:30:30.000 What the fuck is it?
00:30:32.000 It's really interesting because these people, what fascinates me the most in terms of like the UFC, UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, Is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype, you know, before there was this like iconic vision of like what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example.
00:30:55.000 Those are, that's my favorite UFO abduction story because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from where they could say, oh, I know what that is.
00:31:07.000 Well, Outer Limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that premiered 11 days before their experience.
00:31:07.000 I've seen that before.
00:31:15.000 I'm not taking away from their experience.
00:31:17.000 I think they experienced.
00:31:17.000 Something real.
00:31:19.000 Which episode was it?
00:31:21.000 It was the first episode of Outer Limits and the aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described.
00:31:29.000 Let's see what that looks like.
00:31:31.000 Find out episode one of Outer Limits.
00:31:33.000 That's interesting.
00:31:33.000 Interesting.
00:31:34.000 I did not know that.
00:31:34.000 Yeah.
00:31:35.000 So, what year was that?
00:31:36.000 That was, I think, 1962.
00:31:39.000 Whoa.
00:31:40.000 How creepy looking.
00:31:43.000 But it's so Betty and Barney Hill also describe the aliens looking like Nazis at one point.
00:31:49.000 Barney says that, which is really trippy.
00:31:52.000 He said they look like Nazis.
00:31:53.000 At one point, yeah.
00:31:55.000 Because you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill.
00:31:58.000 Yeah, we've listened to part of it, but it's mostly just them yelling.
00:32:03.000 Look at the image.
00:32:04.000 Is that the image of what they saw?
00:32:06.000 Is that a drawing?
00:32:08.000 Because God, that looks exactly like the Outer Limits.
00:32:11.000 They might have got mind fucked by TV.
00:32:13.000 But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you.
00:32:20.000 Yeah, or maybe it has control, like dominion over sort of everything, and they're seeding themselves in through media.
00:32:27.000 And, you know, it's so absurd.
00:32:28.000 The sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encounter.
00:32:31.000 My God, that looks a lot like the fucking Outer Limits thing.
00:32:35.000 There you go.
00:32:36.000 Well, it's like, that's the question.
00:32:38.000 It's like, what.
00:32:40.000 Is that her holding it?
00:32:42.000 Did she make it herself?
00:32:43.000 Interesting.
00:32:47.000 Boy, that looks a lot like the Outer Limits thing.
00:32:51.000 The question is if consciousness is rendering something and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can't access, is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way and it's doing it while you're in a semi conscious state, right?
00:33:13.000 Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar?
00:33:18.000 I mean, maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability, our primitive, all of our senses, which are very crude and primate driven.
00:33:32.000 They're basically like your eyes are in the front of your head because you're a predator, and you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has, you know, really kind of.
00:33:44.000 It's grown out of its genetics.
00:33:47.000 You're in some new state.
00:33:49.000 So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension.
00:33:54.000 And so it's like, instead of showing myself as a tesseract, instead of showing, you know what I mean?
00:33:59.000 Like, instead of showing myself as geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's going to be able to handle this.
00:34:07.000 These silly humans, I'm going to have to, like, show myself as something that was a television character.
00:34:12.000 And that's why when Betty's drawing that, maybe she doesn't even realize.
00:34:17.000 That, like, it looks a lot like what she saw on TV.
00:34:21.000 Totally.
00:34:22.000 And I think.
00:34:24.000 Clarify something, maybe?
00:34:25.000 Yes, sure.
00:34:25.000 I feel like I misunderstood it.
00:34:29.000 Their event happened in 1961.
00:34:32.000 That episode aired in 1964, but it was 12 days before they had their hypnotic regression.
00:34:39.000 Regression.
00:34:40.000 Got it.
00:34:41.000 Oh, interesting.
00:34:41.000 So their hypnotic regression was that long afterwards?
00:34:44.000 It was three years, two and a half.
00:34:46.000 Huh.
00:34:48.000 That's interesting.
00:34:49.000 So, when did they start describing an experience?
00:34:52.000 Was it pre hypnotic?
00:34:54.000 Like, what prompted them to have the hypnotic regression?
00:34:57.000 I believe she had, like, she came home and she had, like, I think some blood on her and she was like something.
00:35:03.000 They had a lot of missing time.
00:35:04.000 They had like five hours of missing time.
00:35:06.000 They were on a road trip.
00:35:07.000 And it was back to their place, I think, in Vermont.
00:35:07.000 Right.
00:35:12.000 That changes things a little bit.
00:35:14.000 But also, there's a problem there is that human memory sucks.
00:35:19.000 It does.
00:35:20.000 Memory sucks.
00:35:21.000 And if you have a memory of a very traumatic experience three years ago, and then also you just watched Outer Limits, then things get squirrely.
00:35:29.000 Because, like, if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind and it's telling you to calm down, it's got you on a spaceship, like, how much of that do you, especially whatever happened to you, it somehow or another rendered your memory out?
00:35:49.000 Like, you can't really remember it.
00:35:52.000 So, you're hypnotically accessing this memory.
00:35:57.000 And then you also have this, like, recent.
00:35:59.000 Experience of watching a television show.
00:36:01.000 Totally.
00:36:02.000 But yeah, you're paralyzed.
00:36:04.000 There's often missing time.
00:36:05.000 And so at that point, you have to say these beings have total control over your entire reality.
00:36:10.000 And so it's hard to say exactly what happened.
00:36:13.000 According to the wiki I got, that this happened in November of 61 for 10 days or 10 days after she started having dreams or one of the two, 10 days after the alleged encounter, she began having dreams.
00:36:26.000 And then a year later, At church, they ran into a captain of the Air Force, and then some hypnosis discussions started.
00:36:36.000 But then, two years later, is when those sessions happened.
00:36:40.000 So, there's not a lot of the timeline, at least according to the wiki, is not really kept well here.
00:36:45.000 Right.
00:36:46.000 So, that's a long period of time.
00:36:47.000 Listen to this Barney described the beings as generally similar to Betty's hypnotic recollection.
00:36:53.000 He said the beings stared into his eyes with a terrifying, mesmerizing effect.
00:36:57.000 Under hypnosis, Barney said, Oh, those eyes, they're.
00:37:00.000 In my brain.
00:37:02.000 They're there in my brain from his first hypnotic session.
00:37:05.000 I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine and I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes.
00:37:14.000 All I see are these eyes.
00:37:17.000 I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body, they're just there.
00:37:22.000 They're just up close to me, pressing against my eyes.
00:37:30.000 When Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English, Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language he did not understand.
00:37:37.000 Betty also mentioned this detail.
00:37:40.000 The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be thought transference.
00:37:45.000 At the time, he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy.
00:37:48.000 That's interesting.
00:37:49.000 Like, he didn't know what the word telepathy was, and the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even in pop culture yet.
00:37:59.000 Totally.
00:37:59.000 And it's hard to debunk that something.
00:38:03.000 Paranormal happened.
00:38:07.000 They seem completely of sound mind, and there's this missing time.
00:38:11.000 And then you have all these high up head honchos at Air Force.
00:38:14.000 I believe this guy, Charles Douglas Jackson, who was this head honcho as well, and kind of the Pentagon came and visited them.
00:38:23.000 So I think it's clear that something happened, and then what happened, it's just hard to say.
00:38:27.000 It's really hard to say.
00:38:31.000 Why is the Air Force talking to them?
00:38:34.000 That's the real question.
00:38:35.000 Right.
00:38:36.000 Well, because I think they had an interest.
00:38:38.000 Project Blue Book was running at the time, and it's clear now, if you do deeper research, that they knew more than they let on.
00:38:46.000 Jalen Hynek later kind of apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover up.
00:38:51.000 And so they were probably doing real research with abductees while they were kind of downplaying and rationalizing everything to the public.
00:38:59.000 So Jamie just pulled something up.
00:39:01.000 It says on November 23rd, 1962, the Hills attended a meeting.
00:39:05.000 At the parsonage of their church, where Captain Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air Force was a guest speaker.
00:39:13.000 Having had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills approached Sweat privately and related their strange encounter.
00:39:20.000 Sweat was particularly interested in the missing time of the Hills' accounts.
00:39:25.000 The Hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Sweat declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist such as himself.
00:39:34.000 I wonder what the meeting was about that he was talking at.
00:39:38.000 That they just went to like A meeting?
00:39:40.000 By hypnosis, maybe?
00:39:41.000 Just in general?
00:39:42.000 Yeah, but he's like a self proclaimed amateur hypnotist.
00:39:45.000 Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism?
00:39:49.000 And especially like in 1962, I'd imagine a lot of people.
00:39:56.000 Running churches were super skeptical about even that concept, and they might even thought it was like blasphemy or sorcery or some something you're not supposed to be working with.
00:40:06.000 Yeah, something you're not supposed to be fucking with.
00:40:07.000 What did this guy do?
00:40:09.000 It's coming from his website.
00:40:10.000 He's got a website, my testimony from him.
00:40:13.000 I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
00:40:21.000 I wasn't a member of the church, didn't know anyone there.
00:40:24.000 Why does he have a donation link on his website?
00:40:26.000 This is for the Wayback Machine.
00:40:28.000 Oh, I see.
00:40:28.000 Okay.
00:40:29.000 He was studying hypnosis and they wanted to hear about it.
00:40:34.000 Does seem a little awfully convenient.
00:40:35.000 Kind of odd that someone was studying hypnosis.
00:40:38.000 They had him in to read his poetry.
00:40:40.000 He had nothing to do with the church at all.
00:40:42.000 The craziest thing about this story is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden, this guy Klaus Vaughn, who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden.
00:40:55.000 She said that she saw a UFO crash later and she.
00:40:59.000 Buried a little piece of it in her house in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
00:41:04.000 And so there might be a little piece of a UFO in her old house.
00:41:10.000 If you live there, go dig in your backyard and see.
00:41:13.000 Well, it's probably not there until you experience it.
00:41:16.000 Yeah, maybe.
00:41:17.000 I don't know.
00:41:18.000 Your consciousness renders it.
00:41:19.000 That's right.
00:41:20.000 This is kind of strange.
00:41:22.000 Those lines right there.
00:41:25.000 Because the timeline here is weird because he did this in 62, and that's when the UFO stuff.
00:41:32.000 So, they started telling me about something that happened to them as they were driving home from Canada the night of 19 to 20 September 1961.
00:41:42.000 A light in the sky seemed to follow them and then circled them and being stopped on the road, and how they later realized that they had a three hour gap in their memories.
00:41:56.000 As they told their story, Barney's face kept twitching spasmodically on one side.
00:42:01.000 I didn't like the looks of that.
00:42:07.000 What?
00:42:07.000 The missing time is also a weird one because that also hadn't been something that was in the zeitgeist.
00:42:07.000 Whoa.
00:42:17.000 Was that in the outer limits?
00:42:18.000 Probably not.
00:42:19.000 But yet that has become a part of the experience that all these abductees discuss.
00:42:19.000 No.
00:42:24.000 Absolutely.
00:42:24.000 They discuss, like, all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like, okay, what the fuck just happened?
00:42:30.000 I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling.
00:42:33.000 So, 1977.
00:42:33.000 Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, there are two missile security officers, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and Michael Johnson.
00:42:45.000 And Mario sees this UFO sort of circling the base and he flashes the little perimeter floodlights at this UFO.
00:42:56.000 And he thinks nothing of it.
00:42:58.000 He goes back, he and Michael are hanging out.
00:43:00.000 I think four or five hours go by and there's a big alert and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert.
00:43:06.000 So basically, The security perimeter to a hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon has been breached.
00:43:14.000 Weapon has been breached.
00:43:15.000 And yeah, and they get in their car and they go check it out because it's always two man rapid response teams.
00:43:24.000 They go check it out.
00:43:25.000 There is a what he describes as a blazing red orb the size of a Walmart.
00:43:31.000 So a massive, like a story that's the way he describes it.
00:43:34.000 It's a huge, like storefront sized, like city block sized UFO.
00:43:42.000 And then he says a little, like a black.
00:43:45.000 Kind of like almost like a drone or emissary orb that's like the size of a golf cart comes out.
00:43:50.000 Four beings hover towards them.
00:43:53.000 They black out.
00:43:55.000 They black in five and a half hours later, eight miles away in Newell or sorry, next to a dam.
00:44:03.000 I think it's closer to Newell.
00:44:05.000 And it's eight miles off the base.
00:44:08.000 And they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
00:44:13.000 And the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this.
00:44:20.000 Happened.
00:44:20.000 His name's Rick Doty.
00:44:22.000 And I just, so they were separated after that, Michael and Mario.
00:44:26.000 I just introduced them for the first time.
00:44:30.000 I found Michael.
00:44:32.000 So Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the 90s, being like, where's Mike?
00:44:36.000 Like, he has eidetic, picture perfect photographic memory.
00:44:40.000 He's like the coolest guy.
00:44:40.000 You'd love him.
00:44:42.000 And he remembers everything to a T that happened to him, including his debrief.
00:44:46.000 He remembers the names of the people there.
00:44:48.000 It's so obvious something happened to him.
00:44:51.000 And did he always have that memory, that ability?
00:44:54.000 He always had that ability.
00:44:55.000 He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory.
00:44:59.000 And he'd been looking for Michael forever.
00:45:02.000 He asked the FBI to find him.
00:45:04.000 He asked the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is the official Pentagon office around UFOs, to find him.
00:45:11.000 He hired private investigators.
00:45:13.000 And this dude DM'd me on Instagram shout out, fan of the show, Jason Miller.
00:45:19.000 And then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson because that was the one missing piece of the story.
00:45:25.000 And they reconnected.
00:45:28.000 It was like the most emotional.
00:45:29.000 Why?
00:45:30.000 Because they hadn't seen each other.
00:45:31.000 They saw each other once, I think two weeks after the abduction, to like trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them, like the beings on the ship.
00:45:39.000 And, you know, I think, yeah, there you go.
00:45:42.000 This is them?
00:45:42.000 Yeah, this is them.
00:45:43.000 Oh, man.
00:45:44.000 All this time.
00:45:44.000 You never forget me.
00:45:46.000 Which guy's which?
00:45:47.000 So, Michael Johnson is the Black Dude on the left, Mario Woods on the right.
00:45:51.000 And which is the guy with the crazy memory?
00:45:53.000 Mario's on the right.
00:45:54.000 They look the same, man.
00:45:54.000 That's Mario.
00:45:56.000 Michael honestly has a great memory, too.
00:45:57.000 So, these two guys, do they have a similar story or is it exact?
00:46:01.000 Yeah.
00:46:02.000 Do they have variation?
00:46:03.000 They have a very similar story, not, you know, perfectly one to one, but they're very honest about, like, you know, the minor, you know, crying.
00:46:15.000 He's crying.
00:46:16.000 Yeah.
00:46:17.000 Doesn't come out tomorrow, but I thought I'd send it to Jamie.
00:46:21.000 Wow.
00:46:22.000 Isn't that crazy?
00:46:23.000 Wow.
00:46:23.000 When does that episode come out?
00:46:25.000 This week.
00:46:25.000 So in a few days.
00:46:27.000 Yeah.
00:46:27.000 What a teaser.
00:46:28.000 Yeah.
00:46:28.000 Yeah.
00:46:28.000 Yeah.
00:46:29.000 Nice.
00:46:30.000 But it's crazy how similar their memories are.
00:46:35.000 I've heard of this event and I've seen it rendered online, like some fake version of it.
00:46:41.000 People call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory.
00:46:47.000 It's insane the level of recall.
00:46:51.000 Has his memory been tested to make sure that he's not delusional?
00:46:55.000 I don't know if his memory's been tested, but when you, I mean, like, I've known him for two and a half years and I interviewed him for the first time, I think, two and a half years ago ish.
00:47:05.000 And I speak to him pretty regularly, and his memory is crazy.
00:47:09.000 Even in that period, around like little things where it's like this restaurant, remember the waiter here and this and that.
00:47:15.000 Like, he just has a wild memory.
00:47:17.000 Yeah.
00:47:18.000 He has a very good memory.
00:47:19.000 There's that actress.
00:47:19.000 Do you know Mary Lou Henner?
00:47:21.000 Do you know who she is?
00:47:22.000 She was on that show Taxi.
00:47:24.000 Okay.
00:47:24.000 And she has that very specific kind of memory.
00:47:26.000 And it's super unusual where she can recall not just the day, but like she can tell you if you give her a date what day it was and what happened that day and like, you know, what was in the news and what was on television.
00:47:43.000 Like Mary Lou Henner.
00:47:44.000 That's insane.
00:47:45.000 Yeah, highly superior autobiographical memory.
00:47:48.000 A rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates, weather, emotions, and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood.
00:47:57.000 Wow.
00:47:59.000 You know who else is?
00:48:00.000 I mean, the inspiration for Rain Man, Kim Peake, similar thing.
00:48:04.000 You'd be like, what was the weather like, you know, November 7th, 1681?
00:48:09.000 And they're like, dying?
00:48:11.000 Yeah, it's like insane shit like that.
00:48:13.000 And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason.
00:48:17.000 That's weird.
00:48:18.000 It is weird.
00:48:19.000 And it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness, though.
00:48:23.000 You know, you get rattled something loose.
00:48:23.000 Right.
00:48:25.000 Exactly.
00:48:26.000 Yeah.
00:48:26.000 There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries, like people that have never been good at anything and all of a sudden they could do physics.
00:48:35.000 Right.
00:48:36.000 Like, where does that come from?
00:48:37.000 What is that?
00:48:38.000 Or these, you know, nonverbal, often autistic children and the telepathy tapes.
00:48:43.000 I know you had Kai Dickens on where they're very kind of disembodied and, you know, it's kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate.
00:48:52.000 The world, but they just, their ability to glean knowledge, it's like they're short circuiting our knowledge pathways.
00:49:00.000 Like they'll know certain Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever having learned about them in school.
00:49:06.000 And they can read them.
00:49:07.000 And they can read them.
00:49:07.000 And they meet up on this telepathic hill.
00:49:09.000 It's like they have abilities that we don't.
00:49:11.000 And they're actually, in some ways, more disembodied.
00:49:14.000 And so it's like there's something about like we're ported into our bodies, but our senses, like when you gain a sense, you lose your former sense or something.
00:49:25.000 And so they're disembodied, man.
00:49:26.000 If you're in a VR system or whatever, you're not going to understand what's going on outside of it.
00:49:33.000 But if you're this nonverbal autistic child who, again, other people might call them maladaptive for the world, unable to navigate the world, they're actually geniuses on this whole other level.
00:49:45.000 They can sort of short circuit the way we learn.
00:49:48.000 Right.
00:49:48.000 And they don't get in their own way the way we do.
00:49:50.000 They don't.
00:49:51.000 And there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that.
00:49:55.000 You have to go into this sort of Tom Campbell area.
00:49:57.000 Yeah.
00:49:58.000 I've often wondered if maybe what we're seeing from nonverbal autistic people and just people on the spectrum in general is instead of it being like the way we look at it is like you said, maladaptive, like that these people have an unfortunate situation that's happened to them.
00:50:18.000 But maybe what we're looking at is an emerging type of consciousness.
00:50:22.000 And if you think about what is wrong with the human race, Well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego and what we were talking about earlier these territorial primate instincts,
00:50:40.000 the desire to accumulate resources and the desire to, you know, to dominate and to get status and all these different things that human beings are captured by.
00:50:54.000 Well, these people aren't captured by those things at all.
00:50:57.000 And if we want to get past where we are now, well, what better way?
00:51:02.000 Then you introduce some new, whether it's natural selection or some random mutation or whatever it is, or maybe even some sort of environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person.
00:51:16.000 Like maybe that is the future.
00:51:19.000 It totally could be the future.
00:51:21.000 And you watch or listen to the telepathy tapes and you're like, we're maladaptive.
00:51:27.000 Like they are so heart centered.
00:51:29.000 It's almost like they're living in the future.
00:51:31.000 Yeah, if you look at.
00:51:33.000 You know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for and our sort of, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against.
00:51:48.000 Yeah, I don't know either, but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a, you know, much more so now because of, you know, various debatable factors, whether it's vaccines or environmental exposure to toxins or whatever.
00:51:48.000 I don't know.
00:52:02.000 You have a much higher incidence of this taking place now.
00:52:06.000 As our society becomes more and more complex, and as we move closer and closer to this like balancing act between like nuclear war and utopia, like where are we going to land?
00:52:18.000 You know, like, well, you know, maybe we're going to have to get past whatever it is that we have clung to about being a person.
00:52:26.000 This thing that we think is so important.
00:52:29.000 There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clarke called Childhood's End, and he talks about aliens sort of incepting the world.
00:52:38.000 Through telepathic children.
00:52:40.000 And it's so, it's again interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality, maybe, where a lot of these kids actually in the telepathy tapes see other beings.
00:52:48.000 They see otherworldly beings and it's sort of casual to them.
00:52:51.000 They're like, yeah, of course, aliens, you know, like it's not even a thing to them.
00:52:55.000 And so they might already just be living sort of in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're sort of limited.
00:53:02.000 If the Campbell thing is right, like our consensus collapsing function is just narrower and theirs might be just wider.
00:53:09.000 Right.
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00:54:06.000 And then when people consume all these bizarre plants, that allows them to tap into something.
00:54:06.000 Right.
00:54:14.000 Like, have you heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people?
00:54:17.000 No, what is this?
00:54:19.000 Oh, it's very weird.
00:54:20.000 So, this mushroom is apparently a food mushroom, and it's not psilocybin, and people eat it.
00:54:26.000 But if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere.
00:54:34.000 No way.
00:54:35.000 Yeah.
00:54:36.000 They saw them on their dishes when eating.
00:54:38.000 The mushrooms are making people hallucinate.
00:54:40.000 Dozens of tiny humans.
00:54:43.000 What?
00:54:44.000 Like little humans standing on the plates and stuff?
00:54:47.000 Like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, sort of thing.
00:54:47.000 I don't know.
00:54:50.000 We can try to figure out, like, What they're saying.
00:54:53.000 It's not the Amanita muscaria.
00:54:55.000 That's a picture of Amanita muscaria, which is the.
00:54:58.000 Also very trippy.
00:54:59.000 Yeah.
00:55:00.000 Possibly the Eucharist.
00:55:02.000 Yeah.
00:55:03.000 According to one scholar.
00:55:06.000 Well, that's a weird one, too.
00:55:06.000 Yeah.
00:55:09.000 It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of even religious art.
00:55:16.000 Like, you've seen the fresco in France.
00:55:19.000 It's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve.
00:55:21.000 And instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all.
00:55:25.000 It's an Amanita muscaria mushroom.
00:55:27.000 It's this huge, like, mushroom spore.
00:55:30.000 With like multiple growth.
00:55:32.000 Have you seen it?
00:55:32.000 I haven't seen it.
00:55:33.000 I think it's 900 years old, something like that.
00:55:37.000 See if you can find that fresco.
00:55:37.000 It's really old.
00:55:40.000 It's in, I believe it's in France.
00:55:42.000 France?
00:55:43.000 They don't like that.
00:55:44.000 France.
00:55:45.000 France.
00:55:46.000 That is a depiction of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
00:55:54.000 That's it.
00:55:55.000 I mean, that looks very similar to Amanita muscaria, being that Amanita muscaria, which has a red cap.
00:55:55.000 Wow.
00:56:03.000 And white dots all over it.
00:56:05.000 I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that.
00:56:11.000 No, that seems to look a lot like that.
00:56:14.000 You know, and then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, the guy who was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister but also was agnostic.
00:56:26.000 And after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms.
00:56:36.000 Yeah.
00:56:37.000 And everybody's like, what the fuck are you talking about?
00:56:40.000 But that's what, if you like Brian Morescu, I know you've had on multiple times, The Immortality Key, or Karl Ruck, like they all sort of, you know, come to that conclusion.
00:56:48.000 Yes.
00:56:48.000 And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, which is that Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum.
00:56:57.000 Martin Luther King did.
00:56:58.000 Martin Luther King wrote a book about how there was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity.
00:57:05.000 Wow.
00:57:05.000 So look at this.
00:57:06.000 Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this.
00:57:11.000 Or how to treat it, and this mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effect, said University of Utah researcher Colin Domnauer in a new interview with Live Science, adding that the gnome like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours and may stick around for several days to follow.
00:57:33.000 These aren't like some vague hallucinations, these are like three dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world, and they're also interacting with.
00:57:45.000 Objects in the real world, like crawling up chairs and tables or under doorways.
00:57:51.000 Think of having to explain that condition if it hasn't gone away to somebody that you don't know.
00:57:56.000 Like, I'm really sorry.
00:57:57.000 How about the fact that it shows up a day later?
00:58:00.000 Yeah, that's true.
00:58:01.000 So you have some Chinese food and they forgot to cook the mushrooms right.
00:58:04.000 And then a day later, you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs and it fucking lasts for days.
00:58:09.000 It's so absurd.
00:58:10.000 I found that after it's saying many people don't even feel any type of.
00:58:16.000 Hallucination or thing, except for the miniature people.
00:58:22.000 That is the funniest thing.
00:58:23.000 Whoa.
00:58:24.000 It's called the Lanmoa.
00:58:27.000 How do you say that?
00:58:28.000 Lanmaaa?
00:58:31.000 Asiatica?
00:58:32.000 So, what type of.
00:58:34.000 It's Asian cooking, right?
00:58:35.000 What China.
00:58:36.000 So, here it is.
00:58:37.000 It's native to the pine forests in both southwestern China and the northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use.
00:58:47.000 Yet, despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, Usually, as a result of undercooking, the ingredient, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago.
00:58:58.000 Wow.
00:58:59.000 Throw that in with the puffer fish of things you don't want to cook incorrectly.
00:59:04.000 Well, or you do.
00:59:06.000 Or you do.
00:59:07.000 Just finding out what you're eating raw.
00:59:09.000 What happens if you eat it raw?
00:59:11.000 These little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with, or harassing the person seeing them.
00:59:18.000 Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like gnomes and elves like throughout history?
00:59:24.000 Yeah, the trickster sort of phenomenon.
00:59:24.000 Totally.
00:59:26.000 That guy's got it right there.
00:59:27.000 Yeah, that's the guy.
00:59:29.000 I'll drug test Colin in a fucking heartbeat.
00:59:31.000 Look at that fella.
00:59:32.000 I bet he's having fun out there.
00:59:34.000 He's imbibed.
00:59:35.000 Postdoctoral student, University of Utah.
00:59:38.000 We might have to have Colin on.
00:59:40.000 I think he should.
00:59:41.000 Yeah, seems like it.
00:59:43.000 Very interesting.
00:59:45.000 So, this is crazy.
00:59:47.000 Whereas the genes responsible for synthesizing psychoactive compounds in typical magic mushrooms are well documented, Don Maurer's team found none in L. Asiatica.
00:59:59.000 There weren't even known psychoactive compounds, so it seems like this must be some new.
01:00:04.000 Hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered because there's nothing that matches anything in our database.
01:00:11.000 So, someone's going to isolate that and turn that into a drug.
01:00:14.000 What the fuck, man?
01:00:15.000 So weird.
01:00:15.000 You imagine dose somebody with that and try to convince someone that they're going crazy.
01:00:21.000 You dose them with that and, like, are you alone, Mike?
01:00:25.000 Are you alone in this room with me?
01:00:27.000 No, there's little people everywhere.
01:00:29.000 I told you, let's take his money.
01:00:30.000 Oh, my God.
01:00:31.000 Mike's a kook.
01:00:32.000 It's like the prank you pull where everyone goes silent.
01:00:34.000 They're mouthing or whatever with you, but like, On steroids, like the worst version of that ever.
01:00:39.000 What the fuck, man?
01:00:40.000 And how long have people known about this mushroom?
01:00:45.000 10 years.
01:00:46.000 Right, but us, Western world.
01:00:48.000 But how long have they known in Asia?
01:00:48.000 Wow.
01:00:51.000 Let me perplexity this and see what other fun information I can get around.
01:00:54.000 Throw that into our AI sponsor perplexity because I want to know whether or not that's why they cook it.
01:01:00.000 I also am wondering how to do their myself.
01:01:01.000 Yeah, they ever put it in salads before and fucking trip for a month.
01:01:04.000 There's some origin story.
01:01:06.000 The original chef.
01:01:07.000 Saw little people for the rest of his life.
01:01:09.000 Yeah, what happens if you eat it raw?
01:01:13.000 Only one way to find out.
01:01:14.000 Yeah, he hasn't tried it yet.
01:01:16.000 I'm scared.
01:01:16.000 Yeah, right.
01:01:17.000 Look at him.
01:01:18.000 That guy's eating a whole salad with it.
01:01:22.000 I guarantee you that dude's tried it.
01:01:23.000 He's full of shit.
01:01:25.000 I have no idea.
01:01:27.000 I'm assuming this is what happens.
01:01:28.000 I am a scientist.
01:01:29.000 Yeah.
01:01:31.000 It's funny how a lot of those people researching stuff like that, they know.
01:01:36.000 For the first time, I interviewed Rick Strassman.
01:01:38.000 Uh huh.
01:01:39.000 He didn't want to talk about his own personal DMT experiences.
01:01:41.000 That's so often the case.
01:01:43.000 Yeah.
01:01:43.000 Because they want to separate it, and it's like, it's all good.
01:01:46.000 You're talking about this being a thing.
01:01:48.000 To me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it.
01:01:52.000 Yes, but in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff.
01:02:02.000 This is like, this predates people going to like Costa Rica and having ayahuasca experiences.
01:02:09.000 Commonly talked about.
01:02:11.000 It wasn't like everybody talks about that now.
01:02:13.000 This predates any Ibogaine experiences, any even concept of there's a plant that you could take that cures you of any kind of addictions that you have.
01:02:22.000 This predates you sitting behind the President of the United States and helping see through this destigmatization and legalization of these treatments.
01:02:30.000 It predates a lot of that.
01:02:31.000 Yeah, fair enough.
01:02:32.000 It predates people's understanding of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really important when we did that press conference to say that this is not.
01:02:42.000 Illegal because it's harmful and the world's trying to protect you from this.
01:02:47.000 This is illegal because of the Nixon administration.
01:02:49.000 Yeah, that's it.
01:02:49.000 Totally.
01:02:50.000 And it didn't make it.
01:02:51.000 And they've probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture, back hundreds of years.
01:02:58.000 Aaron Powell Potentially cool thing, right?
01:03:01.000 Aha.
01:03:01.000 Possible ancient Chinese reference a 3rd century CE Taoist text described a flesh spirit mushroom which, when eaten raw, lets one see a little person and attain transcendence.
01:03:16.000 This is intriguing, but it's not confirmed species identification, so it should not be treated as proof.
01:03:21.000 That the text refers to L. Asiatica.
01:03:25.000 Okay, well, what other mushrooms allow you to see little people?
01:03:29.000 They call it Lilliputian hallucinations.
01:03:33.000 Papua New Guinea.
01:03:37.000 Mushroom madness in the Western Highlands beginning in 1934, involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions.
01:03:46.000 This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed.
01:03:49.000 It may or may not have been L. Asiatica.
01:03:52.000 Well, I bet the Papua New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right?
01:03:57.000 Yeah.
01:03:59.000 Modern documentation Chinese researchers reported cases of Lilliputian hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991.
01:04:10.000 El Asiatic itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015 after market specimens were genetically examined.
01:04:19.000 Wow.
01:04:20.000 It sounds just like Gulliver's Travels.
01:04:21.000 We have like an explanation of it.
01:04:24.000 So, wouldn't it be.
01:04:25.000 Maybe that's what the author of that book.
01:04:27.000 Right.
01:04:28.000 Probably at least had a story about.
01:04:30.000 Right.
01:04:32.000 That's probably exactly what it is.
01:04:34.000 That's probably fucking exactly what it is.
01:04:36.000 This guy went on a journey.
01:04:38.000 He's like, I tell you, little fucking tiny people.
01:04:40.000 Fucking with me.
01:04:41.000 Exactly.
01:04:44.000 It's like, I wonder what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time.
01:04:50.000 And that just lets you pop in and check.
01:04:53.000 Who knows?
01:04:54.000 Yeah.
01:04:54.000 It's hard to say.
01:04:56.000 Well, we're so limited.
01:04:57.000 In our senses.
01:05:01.000 Just think about what we know about the quantum world, what we know about subatomic particles.
01:05:07.000 We can't see those, but yet we know they exist.
01:05:08.000 Well, why can't we see them?
01:05:09.000 Because our senses aren't good enough.
01:05:11.000 Yeah.
01:05:11.000 So, like, what else?
01:05:11.000 You can't even measure them.
01:05:12.000 There's like Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position and momentum at the same time of an electron perfectly accurately.
01:05:19.000 Yeah.
01:05:20.000 And they also can be in two places at one time.
01:05:23.000 Which is what?
01:05:24.000 Yeah.
01:05:24.000 Okay.
01:05:25.000 Two different things?
01:05:26.000 No.
01:05:27.000 Okay, they also could be still and moving at the same time.
01:05:31.000 Okay, what the fuck are we even talking about?
01:05:34.000 It sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or both.
01:05:37.000 Yeah, yeah.
01:05:38.000 Right?
01:05:38.000 So our senses are the real culprit here.
01:05:40.000 It's a real problem.
01:05:42.000 And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Niels Bohr.
01:05:48.000 There's a great book called What is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this, where Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is too spooky.
01:05:56.000 They call it spooky action at a distance.
01:05:58.000 It's too weird, and we need to reconcile it with.
01:06:02.000 Some sort of ontological truth or reality.
01:06:04.000 You can't just say, shut up and calculate.
01:06:07.000 It's not just this like mathematical formalism.
01:06:09.000 And I think now it's turned into just this like heuristic for like doing science.
01:06:14.000 Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever.
01:06:17.000 But actually, it's like way trippier.
01:06:20.000 If you like look into like what it points to as far as reality itself, it's way weirder.
01:06:24.000 Yeah.
01:06:24.000 Yeah.
01:06:25.000 McKenna was one of the first people that I ever heard talk about like using psilocybin mushrooms in particular as a method.
01:06:35.000 Of contacting UFOs.
01:06:36.000 And he was like, people that are looking for UFOs, well, they're very available.
01:06:42.000 His weird way of talking.
01:06:45.000 Way of talking.
01:06:47.000 He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke.
01:06:51.000 He would, like, kind of, I don't know, he had this kind of trickstery vibe.
01:06:55.000 There's an amazing clip actually with him and John Mack, where John Mack is actually getting, like, kind of very ideologically angry.
01:07:02.000 And actually, similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman, he had gone through this crazy kind of review of his credentials at Harvard.
01:07:09.000 He was being almost stripped of them, of his position, rather, because of looking into, you know, alien abductions as, you know, this lead.
01:07:18.000 At Harvard in the psychiatry department.
01:07:21.000 And you just see like McKenna sort of like goading him along and being kind of cheeky.
01:07:25.000 And he was just such a funny, interesting character who was so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language.
01:07:31.000 He was extremely smart.
01:07:33.000 Yeah.
01:07:34.000 Extremely smart, but also like really wanted to believe.
01:07:38.000 Like he had that weird time wave zero thing that he had.
01:07:42.000 He thought there was going to be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count of the Mayan calendar.
01:07:48.000 He was convinced.
01:07:50.000 That, like, there was going to be some sort of an event.
01:07:53.000 Like, that time was.
01:07:55.000 And he thought, you know, obviously, this is in the 90s when he was talking about this and discussing it.
01:07:59.000 He thought it was going to be the invention of a time machine.
01:08:01.000 That's so crazy.
01:08:02.000 Yeah.
01:08:03.000 He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know, with his brother and the Amazon, and he would download all sorts of stuff.
01:08:11.000 I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves.
01:08:18.000 Yeah.
01:08:18.000 And the reason I think that is because.
01:08:22.000 In 1973, I believe, Francis Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, wrote a paper.
01:08:29.000 And then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life Itself.
01:08:32.000 And it's all about how DNA in 100 million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth.
01:08:39.000 So you needed some sort of panspermia.
01:08:42.000 And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar.
01:08:45.000 What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar?
01:08:47.000 Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom.
01:08:50.000 Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness.
01:08:50.000 Yes.
01:08:53.000 They show up at the end of life and before life.
01:08:56.000 And so, like, if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like, what grows first after the, you know, experience?
01:09:01.000 Mushrooms.
01:09:02.000 You know, it's, you have the, they call it the Wood Wide Web, I believe, in Oregon.
01:09:06.000 It's like the, you know, largest organism in the world is actually like a micellial network.
01:09:10.000 And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a Kardashev four scale civilization, which is Kardashev scales are basically like our ability to harness energy, but you could think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization that's like just very deep space faring.
01:09:26.000 What would it look like?
01:09:27.000 Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you like show up, you know, on another planet and you get this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at?
01:09:36.000 No.
01:09:37.000 You would be this like zip file of consciousness, extremophile, that would spread all throughout other planets and you would basically create a symbiotic relationship with hosts.
01:09:50.000 And we all have microbiomes.
01:09:51.000 It's passe to say that.
01:09:53.000 But we also all have microbiomes that accompany the microbiomes.
01:09:57.000 And There's the mind gut connection is also this passe thing to talk about.
01:10:01.000 Obviously, you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created.
01:10:04.000 So, you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking.
01:10:08.000 You can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon getting like taken over by cordyceps mushrooms, and literally their whole muscular skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms.
01:10:21.000 And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution.
01:10:24.000 And the one that people talk about is obviously the stoned ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between two million years ago?
01:10:32.000 Homo habilis and Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago.
01:10:36.000 Maybe it was because as hunter gatherers, we were following animals.
01:10:36.000 That's really trippy.
01:10:41.000 Animals take shits and there's psilocybin cubensis or, you know, grow on poop.
01:10:47.000 And, you know, and then people would, you know, trip out.
01:10:50.000 They'd take these mushrooms and they'd trip out, and then you get like neurogenesis and you get these epigenetic changes and you get this doubling of cranial size.
01:10:56.000 But what's the other big break in human evolution 10,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization and culture?
01:11:04.000 And think about, you know, what really is the kind of the line break there?
01:11:10.000 What happened?
01:11:11.000 We created.
01:11:12.000 You know, an agrarian society, like basically agriculture.
01:11:15.000 So you have wheat, barley, and rye were the first crops that we grew.
01:11:19.000 And what grows on wheat, barley, and rye?
01:11:22.000 Ergot.
01:11:23.000 And these are psychedelic substances.
01:11:25.000 And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion.
01:11:33.000 All of these things are downstream of like, we have more time.
01:11:35.000 We can think about this stuff.
01:11:37.000 But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred?
01:11:40.000 And if you talk, if you look at actually, you know, the Immortality Key by Brian Murorescu, He will openly say, I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks.
01:11:50.000 And so, you had pre Socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about, Heidegger writes about this.
01:11:55.000 So, how far back did it go?
01:11:56.000 Maybe it goes back to that big break around then.
01:12:01.000 And then you get into this thing of like, are mushrooms sort of symbiotic, Kardashev four scale aliens that are Trojan horses for their own species that we ingest?
01:12:16.000 They get into us and then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception.
01:12:22.000 And, you know, it goes back to the McKenna.
01:12:23.000 McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest.
01:12:27.000 And he says about the mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the mushroom, and the mushroom says, within my memory exists the blueprints for hyper light drive ships.
01:12:37.000 So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar.
01:12:42.000 And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know?
01:12:46.000 So.
01:12:48.000 Who are we to say that our evolution is not being co directed or assisted by something else?
01:12:54.000 And we're now saying this in the, you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that, that, you know, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know, biological evolution occurs.
01:13:07.000 But, you know, I think, you know, mushrooms are a really great candidate.
01:13:11.000 Also, humans mistake human tissue for fungal diseases.
01:13:17.000 We're so susceptible to fungal disease.
01:13:20.000 Because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar.
01:13:23.000 Human and mushroom and micellular DNA are more phylogenetically similar than humans and plant DNA.
01:13:31.000 Yeah, mushrooms be there.
01:13:32.000 There you go.
01:13:35.000 It's just like, when you tell people that, they go, whoa.
01:13:38.000 Yeah.
01:13:38.000 And they can survive in a vacuum.
01:13:41.000 In a vacuum, and they're very homeostatic in nature.
01:13:44.000 They can eat plastic in certain situations and stuff.
01:13:47.000 And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth.
01:13:50.000 If you get out of.
01:13:52.000 Line too much or something.
01:13:53.000 It's like they'll, you know, and then think about people that take mushrooms.
01:13:56.000 They become more like conscientious vis a vis the entire earth.
01:13:59.000 So they're very sort of like they're all about ecological balance.
01:14:04.000 It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti war movement and the civil rights movement threw water on like one of the most profound compounds that exists on earth.
01:14:19.000 Trevor Burrus, totally.
01:14:21.000 And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct who was.
01:14:24.000 Trevor Burrus, do you think so?
01:14:26.000 His wife thought that.
01:14:26.000 I think so.
01:14:28.000 I think his wife thought that.
01:14:29.000 I believe so.
01:14:30.000 I think there's a quote around that.
01:14:31.000 Really?
01:14:31.000 How so?
01:14:31.000 Yeah.
01:14:32.000 Was he a CIA construct?
01:14:33.000 Well, I think it was similar to the like Tom O'Neill chaos theory with Manson, where it's like he looks like a hippie, smells like a hippie, was living with Dennis Wilson, this, you know, Beach Boys or whatever, and then he commits murder.
01:14:45.000 So, like, and then you have the Joan Didion quote that, like, that's the day the 60s ended, you know, the date of the Tate LaBianca murders.
01:14:53.000 So, I think it's maybe somewhat similar here, where it's like you're dosing people with way too high doses and you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, Too much.
01:15:05.000 And you're like, you're.
01:15:07.000 There's actually a quote from Abby Hoffman, who was, you know, obviously, you know, a big hippie at the time, where he's like, we were just upright, you know, Berkeley students who were protesting.
01:15:17.000 And then here came the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff.
01:15:22.000 And they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns.
01:15:25.000 And like, they were just sort of really crazy.
01:15:27.000 And so I think the theory is that Timothy Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash, similar to the Manson thing.
01:15:36.000 Well, they also had like weird connections to like.
01:15:38.000 Biker gangs, right?
01:15:41.000 Like, didn't the Ken Keezy and the Merry Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels?
01:15:46.000 Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels?
01:15:50.000 I think there's some sort of a connection.
01:15:53.000 I might be making that up.
01:15:54.000 I'm feeling very vague on this, but I believe they partied together quite a bit, which is like if you were, I mean, I guess you're both outcasts of society.
01:16:05.000 You know, I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that.
01:16:08.000 You know, like that.
01:16:09.000 Maybe if you're hanging out in weird places, you're going to meet weird people.
01:16:13.000 Yeah, totally.
01:16:14.000 And I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction that the alien was a CIA agent.
01:16:19.000 But even the connection with biker gangs, like biker gangs.
01:16:24.000 Did you ever read Hell's Angels?
01:16:25.000 It's really great.
01:16:25.000 No.
01:16:26.000 It's one of, I think it's Hunter's breakout book.
01:16:31.000 And it was before, like, it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality, like, with literature, like a literary license.
01:16:40.000 Mm hmm.
01:16:42.000 But what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam completely disillusioned.
01:16:49.000 They'd killed a bunch of people.
01:16:50.000 They'd been shot at.
01:16:51.000 They'd seen their friends die.
01:16:53.000 They didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore.
01:16:56.000 And they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free.
01:16:59.000 And this is what started sort of the biker movement in America.
01:17:05.000 And when you think about the people that were in Vietnam, well, Vietnam was all about drugs to begin with.
01:17:11.000 The whole reason why we wanted control.
01:17:14.000 Over that area of the world, that's the Golden Triangle.
01:17:17.000 That's where they were bringing in all the opium.
01:17:19.000 That's where there were fucking billions of dollars of drugs coming through there.
01:17:24.000 Same as Afghanistan, very similar in that way.
01:17:27.000 Is that we conveniently find like really important conflicts that we have to be involved in that just happen to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money.
01:17:36.000 And so when these people were over there, there were a lot of them doing drugs, a lot of them were hooked on drugs, a lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals than when they returned to America.
01:17:48.000 And so, those are the type of people that you would imagine would be like, well, fuck this life.
01:17:53.000 You know, I am just going to do whatever I can and I'll fucking rob the man.
01:17:53.000 Yeah.
01:17:59.000 I'll whatever.
01:18:00.000 We're going to figure out a way to make our own society and we're going to be outlaws.
01:18:06.000 Yeah, opt out and do drugs.
01:18:06.000 Just opt out.
01:18:08.000 And that's what they did.
01:18:10.000 And so, it kind of makes sense in a way that they would sort of meet the, you know, the flower children and Ken Keezy and the merry pranksters and Timothy Leary.
01:18:21.000 Kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other.
01:18:24.000 I feel like the boomers in that period, like the late 60s, early 70s, had this opportunity.
01:18:33.000 Sorry.
01:18:33.000 Leary's research is rumored to be linked to CIA, which allegedly provide funding.
01:18:39.000 CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mind altering drugs in the 1960s, and its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MK Ultra experiments.
01:18:48.000 According to Walter Boart, Leary admitted to working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset.
01:18:56.000 He's quoted by Boart as follows I would say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the decisions I made, were suggested to me by CIA people.
01:19:06.000 I like the CIA!
01:19:09.000 This is crazy.
01:19:10.000 The game they're playing is better than the FBI, better than the Saigon police, better than Franco's police, better than the Israeli police.
01:19:20.000 They're a thousand times better than the KGB.
01:19:22.000 So it comes down to who are you going to work for, the Yankees or the Dodgers?
01:19:27.000 What?
01:19:28.000 That's crazy.
01:19:29.000 What?
01:19:31.000 That's mad.
01:19:32.000 This was a very weird six months he spent conveniently right after he got out of the army.
01:19:39.000 As a non commissioned officer.
01:19:42.000 So he spent six months at Ohio State.
01:19:45.000 Wow.
01:19:45.000 Jamie.
01:19:46.000 All leads back to Ohio.
01:19:48.000 All roads lead to Ohio.
01:19:49.000 It's a very weird thing that stands out to me.
01:19:51.000 Boy, it just keeps coming back to Ohio.
01:19:53.000 It's always there.
01:19:55.000 That's his number one rabbit hole.
01:19:57.000 Oh, I know.
01:19:57.000 We've talked about it.
01:19:58.000 We've got Wright Pat there, Wright Patterson, Air Force Base.
01:20:02.000 You have Battelle Memorial Institute there.
01:20:04.000 You have a lot of weird Epstein research.
01:20:07.000 They just took his name off the board.
01:20:10.000 He's been removed from the board.
01:20:11.000 Or head of the board, chairman of the board.
01:20:14.000 Who did?
01:20:15.000 Wexner.
01:20:16.000 Because of the Epstein stuff.
01:20:17.000 Really?
01:20:18.000 At Ohio State.
01:20:19.000 Just now?
01:20:20.000 Just recently.
01:20:20.000 It took a bit.
01:20:21.000 I mean, it took a bit of time.
01:20:23.000 I don't know who's responsible over there.
01:20:25.000 The Wright Pat stuff is nuts.
01:20:29.000 That's weird because that is the place when it was Wright Air Force Field at the time, right?
01:20:33.000 Exactly.
01:20:34.000 Where they think that they brought the Roswell crash to.
01:20:36.000 Exactly.
01:20:37.000 Yeah.
01:20:37.000 47.
01:20:37.000 Yeah.
01:20:38.000 And that would be the place where you would bring it to because they were reverse engineering.
01:20:38.000 Yeah.
01:20:42.000 German pulse jet engines, Soviet MiGs, that sort of thing.
01:20:47.000 And there was this rumor of a blue room there that actually there's a crazy video of Barry Goldwater, who was a future presidential candidate, obviously, senator from Arizona.
01:20:58.000 And he's talking about Curtis LeMay, who's chief of staff of the Air Force.
01:21:01.000 And he's like, I asked Curtis LeMay to show me into the blue room at Wright Patterson because it's this famous, you know, allegedly sort of alien, you know, storage facility.
01:21:12.000 And he goes, he, Cussed me out of the room.
01:21:14.000 I've never seen him get more angry at me.
01:21:17.000 So, man.
01:21:18.000 Outside Phoenix, the senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but he does confirm a disturbing story about an exchange with General Curtis LeMay.
01:21:28.000 Reportedly, a spaceship landed and was all hushed up, quieted, and nobody ever heard about much of it.
01:21:41.000 I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Bright Patterson where you put all his secret stuff.
01:21:51.000 It was the worst audio ever.
01:21:55.000 I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder in hell at me, cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again.
01:22:06.000 That's this audio by the same guy who did the video inside the UFO.
01:22:11.000 Exactly.
01:22:11.000 They're just trying to fuck with us.
01:22:13.000 They're trying to fuck with us.
01:22:15.000 That's also a really interesting aspect of.
01:22:19.000 This whole concept of whether or not consciousness is rendering these things.
01:22:24.000 If you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you, you kind of would have it a little funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd.
01:22:38.000 Like, what better way to slow drip introduce it to the general public than to give it to you in these weird, blurry videos?
01:22:50.000 Not like some 4K crazy video of a fucking mothership, size of a football field flying over a city, undeniable.
01:22:58.000 Nah, let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a circle going in the ocean, coming out of the ocean, where you're like, what is that?
01:23:07.000 What am I looking at?
01:23:08.000 Well, that is a transmedium device that has gone into the water without creating a splash, then gets out of the water and it's going 300 knots under the water.
01:23:17.000 Like, what?
01:23:18.000 Exactly.
01:23:20.000 No.
01:23:21.000 It's almost like you said, it's meant to fuck with us.
01:23:25.000 We are, the end product is our belief system.
01:23:29.000 And Jacques Valet writes about, This concept of intermittent reinforcement, which comes from the psychologist B.F. Skinner, which is like if you give a rat cocaine, for example, and you give it regularly, like, you know, on the dot every day or whatever, it'll like, you know, come back and forth and like it'll not care.
01:23:46.000 I mean, it's cocaine, so it'll probably want it.
01:23:49.000 But like if you give a rat cocaine intermittently, randomly, sporadically, it'll freak out and just get obsessed.
01:23:57.000 And maybe cocaine's not the best example, but anything sweet, you know, it will become obsessed with the thing because.
01:24:05.000 There's something about the intermittency that makes it special.
01:24:09.000 If it's regular, it doesn't care.
01:24:10.000 It knows it's there, it knows it's going to be there at all times.
01:24:13.000 And so I think there's something about the UFO phenomena where it's trickstery.
01:24:18.000 It always leaves a variable left to be questioned.
01:24:21.000 And the end product is the person's obsession for truth after the fact.
01:24:26.000 Yeah.
01:24:27.000 Because there's never going to be this smoking gun.
01:24:30.000 It always has a slight stigma attached to it.
01:24:34.000 Almost like a design feature of ufology itself is.
01:24:38.000 The fact that I've never seen a field where there is this much evidence, but there is very little incontrovertible smoking gun evidence.
01:24:49.000 There is this much, there's so much evidence that, like, you know, I had Michael Shermer, you know, famous skeptic on my show, who I know you've had on, you know, many times.
01:24:56.000 And I feel like I ran circles around him because he's not engaging with these really important data sets around UFOs showing up around nuclear sites and that sort of thing.
01:25:04.000 Like, you can really argue with or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going on.
01:25:12.000 And then It's very hard to figure out exactly what.
01:25:16.000 And for whatever reason, there's this sort of mystery box smoking gun that maybe Bob Lazar has seen.
01:25:23.000 David Grush, I think, is this really fascinating person because he has, he brought forward 40 people who claim to have firsthand knowledge to the intelligence community inspector general.
01:25:35.000 So that makes him pretty special because he has this really bird's eye vantage point around all this stuff.
01:25:42.000 And he himself has a eidetic memory.
01:25:45.000 You know, somewhat on the spectrum, and so which you know, he talks about, so he has this like really, really kind of crazy attention to detail, so it makes him this really interesting sort of person.
01:25:55.000 And you have things like that, and then, like, I don't know if there's a saucer in a hanger at right pat, like, you know, I'd love to see it, it'd be awesome.
01:26:05.000 And then you get into this sort of, well, you know, if that's like a payload delivery system, then obviously we can't see it because it's like this national security thing.
01:26:13.000 But it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself.
01:26:17.000 Like if you were to tell Jacques Boulez in 1975 or, you know, in the 60s when he was Jalen Hynek's assistant, hey, like this is how much progress we've made on UFOs.
01:26:28.000 I think from the perspective of disclosure, he might be pumped about the last 10 years.
01:26:33.000 But from the perspective of like understanding what the fuck they are, He'd be like, I had the best theory back then.
01:26:42.000 I had really good theories back then.
01:26:45.000 So it's really crazy.
01:26:46.000 We're in the Stone Age on this stuff.
01:26:49.000 Actually, somebody who's really up on it, I think he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, but he's blown by a lot of people as Tom DeLong, the Blink182.
01:27:00.000 Crazy, right?
01:27:01.000 I thought he was a loon when he came on my show.
01:27:04.000 But more and more, as time has gone on, the things that he said have been proven to be true.
01:27:09.000 Totally.
01:27:09.000 And now, and I don't want to talk too much out of turn, but like I, because I'm friends with him and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how like these events sort of occur when things are really unstable.
01:27:26.000 So, like, either to discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system a la nuclear or to save something that is essential to preserve the system.
01:27:39.000 So, it's like almost this like regulatory thing.
01:27:41.000 It's really fascinating.
01:27:42.000 It's like he's.
01:27:43.000 He is now miles ahead of, you know, I think where a lot of, you know, to me, I was always like, okay, why are they bringing Tom DeLong in to have conversations?
01:27:54.000 And now, you know, like, he was being sort of briefed by very high level intelligence people, right?
01:28:02.000 Yeah.
01:28:03.000 Yeah.
01:28:03.000 And that whole story of the to the Stars Academy is a strange, interesting, fucking weird.
01:28:09.000 It's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer or the, what did he do in Blink 182?
01:28:13.000 I think he was the front man.
01:28:14.000 Front man.
01:28:15.000 Yeah.
01:28:15.000 Not the drummer.
01:28:16.000 That's Travis, obviously.
01:28:18.000 Like, that you get a guy who's a big time rock star.
01:28:22.000 He was obsessed his entire life.
01:28:25.000 And I think, so yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people and in certain cases, not so savory people, to be totally honest.
01:28:33.000 Really?
01:28:34.000 Yeah, or just people who are associated with.
01:28:37.000 Swiss information?
01:28:39.000 Yeah, or like, you know, James Clapper, who, like, you know, probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping.
01:28:46.000 So, like, why should we trust?
01:28:47.000 Yeah.
01:28:48.000 UFO stuff, you know?
01:28:50.000 And I'm not saying that, you know, Tom was necessarily, I don't know who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of, you know, people.
01:28:58.000 But I think people, what people don't understand, and this is what I piece together from just knowing him, I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot.
01:29:08.000 Like a lot of these people like shut the door in his face and he's like, no, I'll fly out there and I'll do anything and like I'll help like communicate this way.
01:29:15.000 I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the, To the public, and like maybe I can help or whatever.
01:29:20.000 And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his like true passion for this that started from when he was a kid.
01:29:26.000 And that was like super organic.
01:29:27.000 But you also have to think like, if you wanted to get a narrative out there, what better way than get a really famous rock star?
01:29:33.000 Sure.
01:29:34.000 Feed him some whore shit.
01:29:36.000 Yeah.
01:29:36.000 Yeah.
01:29:37.000 Yeah.
01:29:37.000 It's possible.
01:29:38.000 Yeah.
01:29:38.000 Right.
01:29:39.000 But also, if you read Secret Machines, I think there's a lot.
01:29:39.000 Yeah.
01:29:42.000 Then that's, you know, he's written some books actually.
01:29:46.000 And if you read the books, there's some really interesting.
01:29:49.000 Things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open source research.
01:29:53.000 So I'll give you an example.
01:29:54.000 He says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands in the early 60s.
01:30:03.000 So, these are these famous, you know, Bikini Atoll, Johnston Atoll, you know, Operation Dominic tests.
01:30:09.000 And I think it was, he called it, yeah, during the Starfish Prime series.
01:30:12.000 And I thought that, you know, that was nuts.
01:30:15.000 Like, what are you talking about?
01:30:16.000 Like, a UFO came out of the plume?
01:30:17.000 I know they show up around nuclear sites, but really, did the UFO come out of the plume?
01:30:21.000 So, I end up interviewing this guy.
01:30:23.000 He's a presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford.
01:30:28.000 And he is 89 years old, completely like sharp as a tack, like with it, and just has this elite.
01:30:37.000 Kind of macro, kind of, you know, exact picture of the world in his head.
01:30:40.000 I think he worked closely with Kissinger and like just really knew his sort of stuff when it came to just prosaic conventional political trends, you know, outside of UFO stuff.
01:30:50.000 And he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs.
01:30:54.000 And then he starts going into this story.
01:30:56.000 And I'm like, what?
01:30:57.000 Like, so basically he goes, I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of these high altitude nuclear tests.
01:31:05.000 It's called the Bluegill Triple Prime Test, part of the Starfish Prime series.
01:31:09.000 In 1962, in October, actually during the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was October 25th.
01:31:14.000 And he goes, We didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time.
01:31:19.000 So we.
01:31:20.000 Exactly.
01:31:21.000 It's the gift plan.
01:31:22.000 So I was trying to listen to it.
01:31:22.000 I can't control the video.
01:31:23.000 So this is the video of the test.
01:31:26.000 And that white triangle was superimposed on.
01:31:29.000 And there, that's the UFO falling out of the plume, which is insane.
01:31:35.000 So explain it again.
01:31:36.000 Okay.
01:31:37.000 What's falling out of the plume?
01:31:37.000 So basically.
01:31:39.000 A possible UFO object.
01:31:41.000 Yeah, that thing.
01:31:41.000 Well, you know about the images that were taken.
01:31:49.000 What is the method that was used where they observed reflective things in the sky from what was it?
01:32:00.000 Was it radar or what?
01:32:02.000 Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie?
01:32:03.000 We've discussed this before.
01:32:05.000 Like they have photographs of the sky, they have some sort of an image of the sky from the 1960s.
01:32:14.000 And they showed that there were multiple things that were metallic that were.
01:32:19.000 I think you might be talking about Beatrice Villarreal, this Stockholm University astrophysicist.
01:32:24.000 That's it.
01:32:25.000 She's amazing.
01:32:26.000 So I'll get back to this in a second.
01:32:27.000 Yeah, go ahead.
01:32:28.000 But she basically has these astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory.
01:32:34.000 That's what it is.
01:32:34.000 Palomar Observatory was the most prominent observatory in use at the time.
01:32:39.000 And she has these transients that she's gotten on these astronomical plates.
01:32:43.000 The plates have basically this.
01:32:45.000 Emulsion that's sensitive to light, so that basically when light goes through the optical circuitry of the telescope and then it hits the plate, you see stars and planets and all sorts of things.
01:32:58.000 You have a record of what's in the sky, right?
01:33:00.000 And she saw 105,000 what she calls transients, which are light reflecting mirror like objects, probably in geostationary orbit, which is where I think we see a lot of UFOs.
01:33:14.000 And this is before Sputnik, before a man made satellite was ever in space.
01:33:19.000 This is from 1949 to 1957.
01:33:22.000 It gets crazier because a PhD from Vanderbilt University named Stephen Bruell then correlated those transients.
01:33:30.000 They show up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests.
01:33:34.000 It's wild.
01:33:35.000 Right.
01:33:36.000 And you have people like Brian Keating and Sabina Hossenfelder, who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now, who are like, yeah, we don't really have a perfect debunk on this.
01:33:47.000 Some people have thrown cosmic rays at it.
01:33:49.000 Some people have said, you know, Yeah, solar rays, but neither of those make any sense.
01:33:54.000 And then there's a former NASA astronomer named Ivo Busco who showed that some of these transits have, it's called a coma, which is like a little kind of looks like a little comet tail on the transient.
01:34:09.000 And that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself.
01:34:14.000 So the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of chemical staining and like issues.
01:34:21.000 They call them plate defects.
01:34:23.000 And Ivo Busco is basically saying no, the light is going through the telescope.
01:34:28.000 It's going through the telescope, so it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope.
01:34:33.000 So you're left with one conclusion, which is UFOs.
01:34:36.000 And then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called uncorrelated targets all the time.
01:34:42.000 Like there's noise in the sky, there are transients that are detected all the time in the sky, and we just sort of rule it out all the time.
01:34:49.000 So it's really crazy.
01:34:51.000 And I think it's very hard to debunk.
01:34:54.000 And if she proves this to be true, this is not only a Copernican level discovery, it is.
01:35:01.000 Greater than that.
01:35:02.000 It is a wild, wild discovery.
01:35:05.000 And I don't want to say I'm 100% sure it's legit.
01:35:10.000 It's a little beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science, but I have not heard one good debunk on it.
01:35:15.000 Not one.
01:35:16.000 Whoa.
01:35:17.000 Yeah.
01:35:17.000 You would love talking to her.
01:35:18.000 It's also, there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky that they took place because of these high altitude nuclear tests.
01:35:28.000 So that's what this bluegill triple prime test is.
01:35:31.000 So this is an example.
01:35:31.000 So Tom DeLong wrote about this starfish prime.
01:35:34.000 Test and secret machines.
01:35:35.000 And a lot of this stuff is sort of, you know, codes hidden in plain sight.
01:35:39.000 And he had amazing sources.
01:35:40.000 I mean, one of his sources is this general who's now missing, William Neil McCaslin, who was in charge of the entire Special Access Program Oversight Committee.
01:35:50.000 And what he told Tom is he goes, You want to know about the UFO issue?
01:35:55.000 All you're going to find are a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant, which is, I think, the whole fallacy of modern UFO disclosure.
01:36:02.000 It's not like there's this line in the sand, oh, here's the truth.
01:36:06.000 We're going to give it to you.
01:36:07.000 It's like, Like, oh, we have this program here and this program here, and we're testing this stuff, but we don't really understand what it is, and it's kind of confusing.
01:36:14.000 And so, okay, so DeLong writes about the Starfish Prime test, right, where this UFO comes out of the plume.
01:36:20.000 I interview this guy, Harold Malmgren, who is well known in DC circles as this elite statesman outside of UFOs, like just kind of renowned, very impressive reputation.
01:36:31.000 He discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific Starfish Prime test called the Bluegill Triple Prime.
01:36:39.000 Test where you put this X ray device within the nose cone of a Thor X 1 missile.
01:36:46.000 And it's specifically so that when the nuke detonates, the X ray blast then can take out any surrounding ICBMs.
01:36:55.000 So there was no way to guard against Soviet ICBMs.
01:36:57.000 This was the way to do it.
01:37:00.000 He said in my interview with him that, in fact, all along, this may have been this sort of ploy to take out UFOs as well.
01:37:11.000 His mentor, by the way, is Richard Bissell, who Was the number two in the entire CIA and founded Area 51.
01:37:18.000 Yeah, wild.
01:37:19.000 Whoa.
01:37:19.000 Yeah.
01:37:20.000 And so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing.
01:37:23.000 He says that there's this, he gets briefed on it and he finds out that this object comes out of the plume of this thing.
01:37:29.000 And he goes, What is going on?
01:37:31.000 He goes, I want access to that, this thing.
01:37:33.000 And he gets like, I think, kind of stonewalled a little bit.
01:37:36.000 He ends up at the Sandia complex in New Mexico, one of these national labs.
01:37:41.000 And Lawrence Preston Geis, who went on to found DARPA and is Jeff Bezos' maternal grandfather, hands him pieces of the UFO.
01:37:51.000 And he says, and very sadly, he passed away a few weeks after I interviewed him.
01:37:57.000 So there's so much more we wanted to learn and know about this testimony.
01:38:02.000 But he says he held the pieces of the UFO in his hand.
01:38:06.000 And there's a Freedom of Information Act request around the Starfish Prime series saying, I want all records from.
01:38:13.000 Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs.
01:38:19.000 And the National Nuclear Security Administration gets back and they say, you know, the responsive records that you asked for, you know, we referred them to the right subject matter expert, implying that there are responsive records, that there are records from the National Nuclear Security Administration, which guards all nuclear secrets around UFOs.
01:38:44.000 At the time, there's also a guy named David Noble Whitecrow, who I think was a different Starfish Prime test, claimed to see a UFO like on his Navy ship.
01:38:55.000 There's a guy named Bob Jacobs, who I've interviewed, who is a photo instrumentation specialist, who says that there were rumors of an object having fallen down from the sky.
01:39:06.000 In fact, if you look at the Navy deck logs, I just interviewed the Navy's former chief oceanographer, a guy named Tim Gallaudet.
01:39:15.000 He is as well versed in Navy deck logs as anybody and as credentialed and qualified to read them as anybody.
01:39:22.000 And he says that these look very anomalous and weird and like they retrieved something.
01:39:27.000 And I think there was an outage on one of the ships.
01:39:29.000 And there was an admiral named Admiral Starbird, who was named, I guess, who was the senior officer present afloat, who flew in a huff at 4 a.m.
01:39:38.000 Once this thing was retrieved, he flew at 4 a.m. back stateside.
01:39:42.000 So this is a much better video of it.
01:39:45.000 So there are two vantage points.
01:39:47.000 Both were EGG planes, and EGG comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff.
01:39:52.000 And Kettle One and Kettle Two.
01:39:56.000 And there's actually an Australian intelligence analyst named Jeff Cruikshank who does an amazing analysis of all this stuff.
01:40:02.000 And he calls this the Kettle One footage, where you can see the UFO coming out.
01:40:06.000 And the Kettle Two footage is this, it looks exactly like that footage, but there's a white triangle over the object coming out.
01:40:14.000 And some people are like, oh, it's an emulsion defect.
01:40:17.000 It's what, you know, whatever.
01:40:18.000 He went to, he asked for a mandatory, uh, Declassification review of this thing.
01:40:24.000 And I think the guy in charge of it was a guy named Byron Ristvet.
01:40:27.000 And that guy goes, We lost the video.
01:40:31.000 We lost the video.
01:40:33.000 So it's either an emulsion defect or you lost the video, but you have multiple stories.
01:40:37.000 It's just like Roswell, where it's either crash dummies or it's a weather balloon or it's Project Mogul, high altitude radar balloon.
01:40:46.000 You have three different stories or it's just fucking aliens or something.
01:40:52.000 So it's really crazy.
01:40:54.000 And his Wikipedia was completely changed and destroyed the day after.
01:41:00.000 It was totally messed up.
01:41:01.000 And this hit piece was written about him.
01:41:05.000 And it was actually after he died.
01:41:06.000 So it was really fucked up because it was like kicking this guy after he passed away.
01:41:11.000 And I think it was such an amazing, courageous testimony that I think will stand the test of time.
01:41:17.000 Why do you think they attacked him?
01:41:18.000 Just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying?
01:41:21.000 To throw mud on it.
01:41:22.000 I think a lot of counterintel in this space.
01:41:26.000 Is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely, but it's throwing mud on it.
01:41:31.000 It's keeping it in this liminal space of like, I don't know, it could have happened, but.
01:41:35.000 And so they moved him from presidential advisor to Japanese whaling lobbyist because he worked with every prime minister in Japan since Takana in the 70s.
01:41:45.000 And so down to Shinzo Abe.
01:41:48.000 And they're calling him like there was some scandal or something.
01:41:52.000 And that was what they were identifying him with was this whaling lobby.
01:41:56.000 It's so crazy.
01:41:58.000 God, they're so good at that.
01:42:01.000 They're so good at throwing mud on things.
01:42:03.000 It's so crazy.
01:42:04.000 And it was infuriating, to be honest.
01:42:06.000 It was really upset because.
01:42:08.000 Here was a guy who he just pattern matched to this, like, really, you know, brilliant guy.
01:42:14.000 And he had all these other amazing things to say about global macro politics, JFK's assassination, all these interesting things.
01:42:21.000 And you're just, like, kind of really, you know, messing with his legacy or you're kicking him when he's, when he's, after he passed away.
01:42:29.000 It's fucked up.
01:42:30.000 It is fucked up, but that is what they do.
01:42:32.000 Yeah.
01:42:33.000 What is your take on Whitley Stryber?
01:42:38.000 I think.
01:42:39.000 I love Whitley as a person.
01:42:41.000 And I think he, again, it's probably one of those things where in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in Communion, something probably happened.
01:42:52.000 He probably is one of these people who, like, you know, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract, you know, either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open.
01:43:04.000 You know, he is extremely high in the openness category.
01:43:08.000 And I think.
01:43:10.000 That's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers because I think they are often very credulous, but that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences.
01:43:23.000 And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong.
01:43:26.000 I do.
01:43:28.000 And, you know, hopefully, don't come down on me, UFO community, for saying that.
01:43:32.000 I think he's, I think he has said some wacky things that I'm like, like what?
01:43:37.000 I don't, well, we talked about one of them.
01:43:39.000 I don't know if you remember that.
01:43:41.000 Which one was it?
01:43:41.000 It was like he said that there was a fly that was.
01:43:44.000 Yeah, I remember that one.
01:43:45.000 Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video.
01:43:48.000 I'm like, okay, what are you doing?
01:43:50.000 Because there was a fly.
01:43:51.000 He's like, is that a man in a suit?
01:43:52.000 Yeah.
01:43:53.000 I remember that.
01:43:53.000 And I was like, wait, I can't find that video, by the way.
01:43:56.000 I've tried very hard to find that video after the fact.
01:44:00.000 I think very strange stuff does go on.
01:44:02.000 You know what he says?
01:44:03.000 He says, I was picked as a node for disclosure because it would be plausibly deniable.
01:44:09.000 It's what you're talking about.
01:44:11.000 He's this whore.
01:44:12.000 Horror writer.
01:44:12.000 He was this.
01:44:13.000 He was a fiction writer before he had his encounter.
01:44:15.000 Which is also part of the problem.
01:44:17.000 It's part of the problem.
01:44:17.000 It's incredible imagination.
01:44:19.000 For sure.
01:44:19.000 And then it's also part of his ability to decide.
01:44:22.000 It's why communion was a bestseller.
01:44:23.000 So it's this weird, like, it creates this sort of cult like mythology.
01:44:28.000 And then I look, I know a lot of experiencers where I'm like, I know that.
01:44:32.000 I mean, I really believe them that they've had experiences with, you know, grays specifically.
01:44:36.000 And it's a very common trope that they'll walk by communion in like a Barnes and Noble bookstore and it'll freak them out.
01:44:43.000 And that will be like their own hypnotic regression.
01:44:46.000 They'll be like, oh.
01:44:47.000 Like they've never seen a gray before, and that's the first time they've seen a gray.
01:44:50.000 Yeah, the cover of the book is amazing.
01:44:52.000 It's amazing.
01:44:54.000 Who else had a book called Communion?
01:44:55.000 Remember, we had them on, and we were like, Do you know that your book is the same title as a Whitley Schreiber book, but it's completely different?
01:45:02.000 Remember that, Jamie?
01:45:04.000 Someone like fairly recently.
01:45:07.000 We have too many people on this fucking show.
01:45:09.000 My hard drive's cooked.
01:45:10.000 JD Vance.
01:45:11.000 JD Vance, that's right.
01:45:13.000 Oh, he had a book called Communion.
01:45:16.000 That's right.
01:45:17.000 Possibly demons.
01:45:18.000 Yeah.
01:45:18.000 Yeah.
01:45:19.000 He didn't really have a good explanation for that.
01:45:20.000 I pressed him on that.
01:45:21.000 And he kind of laughed very uncomfortably because he didn't know what to say.
01:45:25.000 I think, with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I think he's a very nice guy.
01:45:35.000 I think he's signaling to the tribe.
01:45:38.000 It's a political polemic.
01:45:38.000 It is.
01:45:40.000 You're not looking at the data.
01:45:42.000 Like he says, I want to look into the UFO issue.
01:45:44.000 I actually understand that.
01:45:44.000 I just haven't had the time.
01:45:46.000 There's a lot going on in the world, you know, but it's also, you've had some time.
01:45:50.000 So maybe, you know, go look into it.
01:45:52.000 I kind of understand it, but kind of don't.
01:45:54.000 I'm with you.
01:45:55.000 I'd be the first to get it.
01:45:56.000 Plenty of time to go to church.
01:45:58.000 Like, listen, bro.
01:45:59.000 Look into it.
01:46:00.000 Look into it.
01:46:01.000 Exactly.
01:46:02.000 To quote Eddie Bravo, look into it.
01:46:04.000 It's weird that you would say it's demons, but I think that much like Tucker Carlson has sort of alluded to this as well, I think there's a certain aspect to people that are believers, right?
01:46:17.000 Okay, when I say believers, I'm talking about like Christian believers, believers in the Bible, believers in the narrative that comes along with Christianity, you know, and that.
01:46:30.000 For them, there's like, if you say, I believe they're demons, like, he's on our side, there's, you know, there's a, there's, you will, you will attract those people.
01:46:39.000 They will, that will resonate with certain people.
01:46:42.000 And I do think, very unfortunately, that there are politicians that say things, we both know this, that they don't necessarily believe because they think that their base wants to hear it.
01:46:54.000 Totally.
01:46:55.000 Yeah.
01:46:55.000 Yeah.
01:46:56.000 You're, you're a traditionalist.
01:46:57.000 You're like, why, you know, why do we have to deal with this new agey bullshit?
01:47:01.000 You know, it's, it's just, you know, go back.
01:47:03.000 To the scripture and they're demons.
01:47:05.000 Oh, I like it.
01:47:07.000 I like how this guy's talking.
01:47:08.000 Exactly.
01:47:10.000 And it ends the conversation because then it's like, okay, but if there are demons, there are angels too.
01:47:15.000 And what is a demon and what is an angel?
01:47:18.000 Well, also, where's the evidence that these demons are doing anything demonic?
01:47:23.000 Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is if you actually talk to a Jacques Valet, who I do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying this stuff, going to, you know, 100 plus crash sites, talking to probably thousands of Experiencers.
01:47:38.000 And he'll often say, you know, some of this stuff does pattern match to demonic behavior, where it is sort of this, you know, getting you to chase your tail.
01:47:48.000 It's, you know, it's paralyzing you.
01:47:51.000 You know, in some cases, it's sort of, you know, angelic as well.
01:47:53.000 In the case of, you know, Mario and Michael, it's, they say, do not fear, do not fear.
01:47:57.000 That's exactly what Daniel and the Bible heard, you know, on the banks of the Tigris.
01:48:01.000 Do not fear is, is, is, if, if the Bible, if the angels in the Bible have like a, you know, a catchphrase, it's do not fear.
01:48:08.000 And so he actually notes that there are some similarities.
01:48:11.000 So I think there are two failure modes, right?
01:48:13.000 It's the end of the conversation, like, you know, I'm religious, I don't want to hear it sort of thing.
01:48:18.000 And then on the other side, it's like you can't even look at the Bible as data or like any past mythology or lore as possibly overlapping with, you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell.
01:48:32.000 Sulfur is the sign, you know.
01:48:33.000 So, you know, that being, you know, at Virginia, you know, where that thing crawling around, that Probably would have been called a demon like a thousand, two thousand years ago.
01:48:42.000 There's a reason you look at it, it was like a weird color body with red eyes, and it looked like it had like these tiny little horns.
01:48:50.000 Totally.
01:48:50.000 By the way, I just interviewed the Brazilian, the former Brazilian defense minister, and I brought up Virginia, and he goes, I believe it happened.
01:48:59.000 Whoa.
01:48:59.000 Yeah.
01:49:00.000 Whoa.
01:49:01.000 So we're making progress.
01:49:04.000 Allegedly.
01:49:05.000 Allegedly.
01:49:07.000 Well, then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with it that died.
01:49:12.000 The guy, yeah, yeah.
01:49:13.000 Well, yeah, exactly.
01:49:14.000 Yeah, James Fox.
01:49:15.000 Watch Moment of Contact if you want to know what we're talking about.
01:49:18.000 Basically, you have 15 to 20 people alive today in this small town in Virginia, 130,000 person town, and they knew nothing about Roswell, UFOs.
01:49:30.000 It's this town in Brazil.
01:49:31.000 And in 1996, in January, James Fox, this amazing researcher, documentarian, has triangulated the flight path of this kind of tic-tac object that came down this ultralight pilot and geography teacher named Carlos de Souza.
01:49:49.000 Was first on the scene.
01:49:50.000 He smells all these sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell.
01:49:54.000 He actually holds the material, apparently, and then it's taken from him by, I guess, Issa, this nearby military base.
01:50:02.000 15 minutes later, he has this sort of men in black experience where somebody comes up to him at a gas station, seems to know everything about him and his family, and swears him to secrecy.
01:50:13.000 Meanwhile, the beings are running around this town, and the beings end up in this hospital, Regionalis Hospital, and this neurosurgeon.
01:50:22.000 Who I've met and interviewed, who was the chief neurosurgeon, basically, like probably the most senior guy in Virginia, but I think even senior, you know, in Brazil as far as, you know, neurosurgeons go.
01:50:33.000 He says that he treated this being and that, or I guess he was face to face with the being for four minutes and he was checking the work of his colleague who had treated the being, who had done this like minor surgery on the being.
01:50:48.000 And apparently, if you go to this hospital and you say, like, hey, you know, Is this the being where the ET was treated?
01:50:55.000 They'll be like, Yeah, yeah, this is it.
01:50:56.000 And Virginia itself has a big saucer.
01:50:59.000 Yeah.
01:50:59.000 You know, in homage to this entire event.
01:51:02.000 Well, that's.
01:51:02.000 It's amazing.
01:51:03.000 What's up?
01:51:04.000 I hate doing this, but.
01:51:06.000 Please do.
01:51:06.000 I just was looking up, like, you know, perplexity.
01:51:09.000 I asked Virginia UFO incident, debunked or not.
01:51:12.000 Never have done that before.
01:51:13.000 And I've never heard this brought up.
01:51:16.000 This is a known guy.
01:51:18.000 His name is Mudinho from that area.
01:51:23.000 And he is in the exact same position as the alien.
01:51:26.000 Picture.
01:51:28.000 Yeah, weird.
01:51:29.000 Yeah, but if you treated that guy for a head wound, you would know that he's a man with disabilities who was reportedly seen crouching in heavy rain.
01:51:40.000 That they did a 600 page inquiry.
01:51:42.000 Could it have appeared dirty or unusual?
01:51:45.000 Could he have flown in on a craft with?
01:51:48.000 Again, I'm just sort of.
01:51:49.000 Was he so stinky that when the officer brought him into the hospital, the guy died of a bacterial infection they couldn't treat?
01:51:56.000 That's the crazy thing.
01:51:58.000 Then there's this guy, Marco Cherese, who's the soldier that grabbed the ET being and apprehended it.
01:52:03.000 And his whole family knows about this.
01:52:05.000 And then he gets an autopsy.
01:52:06.000 I interviewed the guy who did the autopsy.
01:52:09.000 And he was like, this was like this gnarly form of this bacteria that I've never seen in my life.
01:52:14.000 And the guy who's president of IPD, which is the company that does the autopsy report, he even said, yeah, I think it was from the nail of the ET accidentally.
01:52:25.000 You know, the being didn't mean any harm to this guy.
01:52:28.000 But.
01:52:28.000 There was a puncture wound and it created this horrible viral infection, and he died, or I think it was a bacterial infection, and he died of that.
01:52:36.000 So crazy.
01:52:38.000 Yeah.
01:52:40.000 What?
01:52:43.000 I know.
01:52:44.000 It's so nuts.
01:52:44.000 The Virginia one is really crazy.
01:52:46.000 It's really crazy.
01:52:47.000 There's so many people that.
01:52:48.000 But then the problem is I would love to have talked to them in 1996 individually without them knowing that this was going to be a global story and when they can all sync up their memories.
01:53:01.000 I know.
01:53:01.000 I know.
01:53:02.000 And I'm praying that we get a case like that, you know, at some point.
01:53:07.000 Look, it's better than Roswell, 1947.
01:53:09.000 Right.
01:53:10.000 You know, we're really reading the tea leaves on that.
01:53:12.000 So it's 1996.
01:53:13.000 You have 15 to 20 people alive who have either seen the craft or the being.
01:53:17.000 That's pretty amazing.
01:53:19.000 Those young ladies, they were girls at the time.
01:53:21.000 And then when they get interviewed later, when they're grown women and they're talking about the incident, it's very strange.
01:53:28.000 I think the strangest one is the cop who goes to the scene of the crash.
01:53:31.000 He starts weeping and he starts really.
01:53:33.000 I'm like, okay, well, either this cop is the best actor that's never been in a movie ever, or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy memory of an event.
01:53:42.000 That was Carlos DeSouza, the geography teacher.
01:53:44.000 And he led them around, to your point, for two hours or something before finding that spot.
01:53:51.000 And I think if you were acting, you'd be like, yeah, this is the spot.
01:53:54.000 You wouldn't be like, wait, there was a white shed there and it's not here anymore and confused.
01:54:00.000 And apparently there was a white shed there that was removed or whatever.
01:54:03.000 And then finally, when he sees the spot, you just see him palpably break down.
01:54:07.000 It's not this, unless, yeah, you're taking some acting class on the side.
01:54:11.000 Not only that, you're a fucking genius.
01:54:13.000 You're the next Daniel Day Lewis.
01:54:15.000 Like, what are you doing?
01:54:16.000 Wasting your time in Brazil telling UFO stories.
01:54:21.000 You go to Hollywood, young man.
01:54:23.000 Yeah, it's.
01:54:25.000 But it's also the problem is I want to believe it.
01:54:28.000 That's also the problem.
01:54:28.000 I know.
01:54:29.000 Me too.
01:54:30.000 You know, I don't want to believe it's like the thing about like Roswell in particular.
01:54:34.000 Roswell has become an industry, right?
01:54:39.000 There's the whole tourist trap thing, there's the little gray, you can buy things and knickknacks at stores.
01:54:47.000 It does.
01:54:48.000 You know, it's like it's got this whole connection to it.
01:54:52.000 It does.
01:54:53.000 It's its own cottage industry.
01:54:54.000 People's identities, so they often want to keep it going.
01:54:57.000 And then sometimes they're like, and this other thing happened to me too.
01:55:00.000 Wait, you know, come back sort of thing.
01:55:02.000 Did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner?
01:55:06.000 Yeah, that was on my buddy's show, Chris Ramsey.
01:55:09.000 What a weird way to do a show.
01:55:10.000 I have a diner.
01:55:13.000 You have these two guys sitting across from each other.
01:55:15.000 It's very odd how they did it.
01:55:17.000 But I didn't think that was necessary.
01:55:20.000 But the conversation's interesting.
01:55:21.000 It's super interesting.
01:55:22.000 And to hear the similarities between their accounts and things that line up.
01:55:27.000 And those two guys are also.
01:55:30.000 Kind of again in that top tier of like you spend time with them.
01:55:33.000 I haven't spent time with Travis Walton, but I have with Bob.
01:55:35.000 And it's like, you know, this it's like really hard to poke holes in the story.
01:55:39.000 And they just, to go back to our original, you know, OG, the top of this conversation, like the pattern matching is just there with him.
01:55:49.000 He doesn't seem like a bullshitter.
01:55:51.000 Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all.
01:55:53.000 You know, I talked to him for several hours and, you know, before and after the show.
01:55:58.000 And he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years.
01:56:03.000 It's the same story.
01:56:04.000 Yeah.
01:56:05.000 It doesn't really vary.
01:56:07.000 They all took lie detector tests.
01:56:08.000 Yeah.
01:56:09.000 One of the guys that was a part of the crew actually hated him and got in a fist fight with him the day of the event.
01:56:15.000 And he told the exact same story.
01:56:17.000 Yeah.
01:56:17.000 And he came back.
01:56:18.000 There was missing time.
01:56:19.000 And I think he came back with a full grown beard.
01:56:21.000 Five days later.
01:56:21.000 Five days later.
01:56:22.000 Yeah.
01:56:23.000 Yeah.
01:56:24.000 It's very strange.
01:56:25.000 But his clothes weren't dirty.
01:56:28.000 And he had this insane story.
01:56:30.000 And they all stuck to the same story.
01:56:31.000 Yeah.
01:56:32.000 Yeah.
01:56:32.000 Well, they thought those guys killed him at first.
01:56:34.000 So they were.
01:56:35.000 They were questioning.
01:56:35.000 They did.
01:56:36.000 They.
01:56:36.000 Yeah.
01:56:37.000 Like, where the fuck is he?
01:56:38.000 And they're telling the story, and they're like, what?
01:56:40.000 And then he comes back five days later and tells the story, and they're like, what is.
01:56:45.000 Like, what?
01:56:46.000 Did you guys all plan this?
01:56:48.000 Like, what the fuck is going on?
01:56:49.000 But it doesn't seem like they did.
01:56:51.000 And he, like, touched the craft, and it had this electromagnetic charge or something, and he bounced off of it.
01:56:51.000 So trippy.
01:56:57.000 Either he touched it or he got close to it, right?
01:56:59.000 He got close to it.
01:57:00.000 And that's common to.
01:57:02.000 Yeah, maybe he got close.
01:57:03.000 But that's common for UFO experiencers where it's like, You experience like weird electromagnetic effects where it's like almost like you're getting a sunburn where you get like, you know, UV damage.
01:57:03.000 I don't know.
01:57:14.000 It's actually in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
01:57:17.000 It's depicted where Richard Dreyfus literally has a sunburn after his encounter.
01:57:22.000 On one side of his face, where it was to the left of his face because it was outside of his face.
01:57:25.000 Exactly.
01:57:26.000 Exactly.
01:57:27.000 And Mario Woods, also in Ellsworth, South Dakota, he also had burns and he didn't know where they came from.
01:57:34.000 They took skin samples.
01:57:37.000 And what did they discover?
01:57:39.000 I don't know.
01:57:39.000 I think that part's classified, unfortunately.
01:57:44.000 Oh, God.
01:57:46.000 Wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself?
01:57:50.000 I mean, imagine thinking about all the time you spent studying this and you haven't had an actual experience yourself.
01:57:54.000 I've seen UFOs, but I haven't, I know I haven't had a close encounter of the third kind.
01:57:59.000 What have you seen?
01:58:01.000 I saw in Laurel Canyon, I saw a UFO, and then in Silver Lake, I saw just weird places to see a UFO in LA.
01:58:09.000 What'd they look like?
01:58:10.000 One was, I told one of them on your show, I think I told both of them on your show, but one was like a school bus.
01:58:17.000 Sort of thing, which is really weird.
01:58:19.000 It was like, you know, kind of, you know, rectangular.
01:58:23.000 And it was hovering like right above the treetops.
01:58:26.000 It was not very high.
01:58:29.000 And it was sort of silently moving over the treetops.
01:58:32.000 And I was with a friend at the time and she saw the UFO like descend over the treetops, like go into some, you know, we were in a residential area.
01:58:42.000 It was in Laurel Canyon.
01:58:43.000 And so that was very strange.
01:58:45.000 I didn't see that.
01:58:46.000 I didn't see it sort of descend.
01:58:47.000 I just saw it go over.
01:58:48.000 But it looked like a floating.
01:58:52.000 Again, school bus, like a thing, and there's like no visible propulsion.
01:58:55.000 It was the strangest thing.
01:58:56.000 How fast was it moving?
01:58:58.000 That's hard for me to say.
01:59:00.000 I don't know.
01:59:01.000 Not fast.
01:59:02.000 Not fast.
01:59:02.000 Like it could have been a balloon.
01:59:04.000 There's no way.
01:59:06.000 Really?
01:59:07.000 No.
01:59:07.000 Why?
01:59:08.000 Because it was floating like a balloon.
01:59:11.000 Like a helium balloon?
01:59:13.000 Yeah, I get.
01:59:14.000 Maybe it could have been a balloon.
01:59:15.000 A large balloon.
01:59:16.000 Maybe.
01:59:17.000 It was like it was right above the treetops, and you heard this sort of little hum.
01:59:17.000 I don't know.
01:59:24.000 And I don't know.
01:59:25.000 I don't know.
01:59:25.000 I don't think it was a Bolan, but maybe it was a Bolan.
01:59:29.000 I mean, think about blimps.
01:59:31.000 Like, if you didn't know what a blimp was and you saw that thing flying overhead, you're like, oh my God.
01:59:36.000 But I've seen plenty of blimps, and they're usually like really high in the sky.
01:59:40.000 And this thing, like.
01:59:41.000 But they don't have to be, right?
01:59:43.000 That's how they come down.
01:59:44.000 Yeah.
01:59:45.000 Right?
01:59:46.000 This thing was definitely not a plane, but I can't.
01:59:49.000 I don't remember the exact details as to what it was.
01:59:52.000 No noise.
01:59:55.000 Like kind of like a low bassy thing, but no like not normal not normal propulsion like bassy like it was like a like a yeah that sort of thing.
02:00:06.000 Yeah, like the fan that's moving the balloon, but not not at all like a you know a chopper or a right or a plane or anything and Yeah, I don't know as far as it just looked metallic like if it was a blimp or something it would have been like perfectly like I don't know it had had some sophisticated signature management to look like it was like You know, perfectly metallic and shiny.
02:00:29.000 But like mylar balloons, they look very metallic.
02:00:33.000 Yeah.
02:00:34.000 But I think you could see that it was floating.
02:00:37.000 You could see that, you know, possibly that it was moving with the wind.
02:00:40.000 And this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all.
02:00:42.000 It looked like it was sort of moving against the wind.
02:00:46.000 I mean, not necessarily moving against it, but moving agnostic to the wind is what I'm trying to say.
02:00:52.000 If there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience, With something, would you do it?
02:01:01.000 Conjure up an experience.
02:01:02.000 What do you mean?
02:01:03.000 Like, if you could, in a meditative state, access like whatever connection and have like a Betty and Barney Hill type experience.
02:01:15.000 I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily.
02:01:18.000 Really?
02:01:20.000 I mean, I would love to have an experience, but maybe organically, like if it's sort of meant for me sort of thing.
02:01:25.000 But that is, there are whistleblowers who've come out, this guy like Jake Barber, for example, that talks about essentially programs.
02:01:35.000 Forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences.
02:01:39.000 That's why I asked.
02:01:39.000 Right.
02:01:40.000 Yeah.
02:01:42.000 Yeah.
02:01:43.000 Yeah.
02:01:44.000 No.
02:01:45.000 And I think there's a long tradition of communing with these sorts of things that goes back to like kind of Merkaba, Kabbalistic practices.
02:01:54.000 You know, Neoplatonists would call it theurgy, like, you know, kind of communing with deities.
02:02:00.000 And I don't think it's a coincidence that I think there are aspects of, you know, Stephen Greer.
02:02:05.000 Say what you will about the guy CE5, there are aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols that involve sort of communing with these things.
02:02:15.000 And traditionally, you're not supposed to do this stuff unless you are like fully of pure intent.
02:02:23.000 You're probably older.
02:02:24.000 Like, you're not supposed to start Kabbalah, for example, until you're 35.
02:02:28.000 Really?
02:02:28.000 Yeah.
02:02:29.000 I think you're supposed to be married as well.
02:02:30.000 You're supposed to be like very rooted in reality.
02:02:34.000 Yeah.
02:02:34.000 Interesting.
02:02:35.000 So, That's like a Jewish mysticism, right?
02:02:38.000 That's a Jewish mysticism, but there are Christian versions of it.
02:02:44.000 I think there are versions of it across history.
02:02:48.000 The Neoplatonists had a version of it as well.
02:02:54.000 I think the Jews had it with Ezekiel's wheel and the Merkabah texts, but I think there's more.
02:03:02.000 Yeah.
02:03:03.000 The weird stuff when you get into the Bible itself is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible.
02:03:10.000 I know what you're going to say.
02:03:11.000 The Enoch stuff.
02:03:12.000 That's so weird.
02:03:13.000 The Enoch stuff is really weird.
02:03:15.000 And when they find it in these clay tablets in Qumran, along with books in the Bible, like the book of Isaiah was also in there.
02:03:15.000 Yeah.
02:03:25.000 Like, okay, what was that?
02:03:28.000 And how much that sounds like Greek mythology, like these gods sort of mating with mankind.
02:03:35.000 Yeah.
02:03:36.000 And apparently it's still in the Ethiopian Bible.
02:03:38.000 The Ethiopian Bible has all of the books of Enoch, all the different.
02:03:44.000 Tales of the Watchers and the Book of the Watchers and all that stuff, where they came down and mate with the daughters of men and created the Nephilim that's in the Ethiopian Bible.
02:03:54.000 That is so trippy.
02:03:55.000 It's so trippy.
02:03:56.000 It's so trippy.
02:03:57.000 And then they create the Nephilim.
02:03:59.000 And then you get into the Timothy Albarena stories, which I know he was on your podcast, where there might be giants in Afghanistan that the Air Force has encountered in the early 2000s.
02:04:09.000 And you had Devin LaRotte on as well.
02:04:12.000 Was he a famous arm wrestler?
02:04:14.000 Who served for the Canadian Special Forces in Afghanistan and saw a man there was like massive.
02:04:14.000 Is that right?
02:04:20.000 He said he was like eight feet tall.
02:04:22.000 And I think a mutual friend of ours, Brigham Buehler, shout out ways too well.
02:04:27.000 They're the best.
02:04:28.000 He has an employee who also, I think, was Special Forces in Afghanistan.
02:04:33.000 And he says that there were, I think, you know, large beings there, like giants there as well.
02:04:40.000 So it's like a bunch of like anecdotal, and that's just us.
02:04:43.000 That's just, you know.
02:04:44.000 So yeah, it's fucking super weird.
02:04:47.000 And do you know that these, the latest take on the Denisovans or Denisovans, however you want to say it, which is a very recent discovery?
02:05:01.000 I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called Denisovan, I think that's how they'd pronounce it.
02:05:09.000 I always say Denisovan.
02:05:11.000 They believe they might be much larger than human beings now.
02:05:15.000 They used to think that they were squat.
02:05:18.000 Like Neanderthals and thick brows, and but now they realize their heads were much larger than ours and that these could potentially be an eight foot tall people.
02:05:28.000 I didn't realize that's crazy.
02:05:30.000 This is fairly recent.
02:05:32.000 So, when was the put this into perspective, uh, perplexity?
02:05:37.000 When was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans?
02:05:42.000 I want to say it's real recent, like maybe 2016 or something like that, like real recent.
02:05:49.000 Where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species.
02:05:55.000 I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids in the last few years.
02:05:59.000 There you go.
02:05:59.000 Okay.
02:06:00.000 So, okay, they found it in Siberia in 2008.
02:06:04.000 It was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010.
02:06:09.000 The key fossil, small finger bone, has been excavated from the Denisova cave in Siberia in 2008, but DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed that it belonged to a population distinct from both Neanderthals and modern humans.
02:06:23.000 I think they have more now than just the finger bone.
02:06:27.000 And I think that is where they're getting at.
02:06:30.000 I think they have skulls.
02:06:33.000 Oh, highest known.
02:06:33.000 Varies.
02:06:36.000 Oh, this is people who have the DNA.
02:06:40.000 So, disoma DNA estimations.
02:06:43.000 Melanesian populations, especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific Islands, roughly 4% to 6% of their genomes.
02:06:52.000 That's interesting.
02:06:55.000 What.
02:06:57.000 Let's find out how many bones they have available.
02:07:02.000 Because I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones that seem to indicate that it had a larger skull than humans.
02:07:13.000 And they think, how much bone has been recovered or found?
02:07:16.000 Let's find out.
02:07:17.000 Do, do, do, do.
02:07:20.000 Very little.
02:07:21.000 Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils, not complete skeletons.
02:07:29.000 Do they have a skull?
02:07:31.000 They have a mandible, a partial lower jaw from the Tibetan plateau.
02:07:36.000 It was identified as Denisovan through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA.
02:07:45.000 No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton.
02:07:50.000 Just Google, I mean, excuse me, search for me Denisovan skull.
02:07:57.000 Like, see if there's images.
02:07:59.000 Because I think there's a brow.
02:08:03.000 The problem is, it's like you're looking for stuff.
02:08:06.000 Yeah.
02:08:07.000 So, like, what is that?
02:08:08.000 Is that just a recreation of what it looks like?
02:08:10.000 Wow.
02:08:11.000 It seems like a recreation.
02:08:13.000 But this is what they think it looked like.
02:08:15.000 It's like a Eugene Levy situation.
02:08:17.000 Huge eyebrows.
02:08:18.000 Look at the brow ridge.
02:08:20.000 Yeah.
02:08:21.000 So, how much is this real?
02:08:24.000 And is this AI?
02:08:25.000 Like, what is this?
02:08:26.000 Well, I know.
02:08:27.000 Is perplexity not caught up to the latest evidence?
02:08:30.000 In Peru, Piraca skulls are 30%.
02:08:34.000 Higher volume, I think, often than normal skulls.
02:08:37.000 Some of them are.
02:08:38.000 Some of them are.
02:08:39.000 That's the weird shit with the elongated heads.
02:08:41.000 That gets real weird.
02:08:43.000 This has a fairly elongated head as well, but it's not like upwardly.
02:08:49.000 It seems to like move towards the back, but it has a pretty large.
02:08:54.000 So, is that an actual?
02:08:55.000 I don't know.
02:08:55.000 I'm trying to figure out.
02:08:58.000 So, if that's an actual Denisovan skull, it seems like perplexity is relying on older data or older papers.
02:09:08.000 Because I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger.
02:09:15.000 Mm hmm.
02:09:18.000 What's going on?
02:09:21.000 This is natural history.
02:09:22.000 What is being eaten up?
02:09:25.000 That they were eating hyena bones?
02:09:26.000 See, I could just pull this picture off of this website.
02:09:28.000 I don't know if.
02:09:29.000 Okay, fossil evidence of a mysterious southern Denisovans yet to be found.
02:09:35.000 A replica of a Homo erectus cranium.
02:09:38.000 Okay, that's from Indonesia.
02:09:40.000 I know, but I'm just saying this picture showed up in that.
02:09:43.000 So that's what that is.
02:09:43.000 Right.
02:09:44.000 But what is that image of the prominent brow ridge?
02:09:47.000 Like that one, yeah.
02:09:48.000 I know, that's what it was.
02:09:49.000 I'm trying to.
02:09:50.000 That's coming from a nature article that I couldn't get into.
02:09:50.000 Track it down.
02:09:53.000 It was paywalled.
02:09:54.000 So, if they haven't found this much, then I think based off of the pictures I'm seeing, they probably built it off of this tooth they found and then expanded out to the air because there's a little picture of a tooth right there.
02:10:05.000 Right.
02:10:06.000 I don't know.
02:10:07.000 So, that seems like a jawbone that they found.
02:10:13.000 So, if that, if it turns, and again, we're talking about something that's recently discovered, they only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago.
02:10:21.000 Which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record.
02:10:26.000 We like to think of the fossil record as being a library.
02:10:29.000 It's not.
02:10:30.000 It's really limited in terms of how many things that die leave fossils.
02:10:34.000 It's a tiny fraction.
02:10:36.000 Same with the archaeological record.
02:10:37.000 It's the same thing.
02:10:39.000 Well, at least the archaeological record, we have physical stuff.
02:10:43.000 We can look at Soxe Waman.
02:10:45.000 We can look at the pyramids.
02:10:47.000 We don't really know what happened and who built it, but at least there's physical stuff there that defies explanation.
02:10:52.000 But if you have a cataclysm.
02:10:53.000 Right.
02:10:54.000 Right.
02:10:55.000 And we probably did during the Ice Age, you know?
02:10:57.000 Yeah, more than likely.
02:11:00.000 More than likely.
02:11:00.000 The idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seems silly at this point.
02:11:03.000 It seems like there's so much physical evidence.
02:11:06.000 And it's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find.
02:11:10.000 And the longer we go, the older things get archaeologically.
02:11:13.000 Yep.
02:11:13.000 And it's actually predictable.
02:11:15.000 Like it makes sense that both of those would be the case.
02:11:18.000 Like obviously our abilities to like map and have sensors and like figure this stuff out.
02:11:23.000 Is increasing and lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig is going to be like older stuff.
02:11:29.000 So archaeology is 200 years old.
02:11:29.000 Yes.
02:11:31.000 Literally, the discoveries of the Babylonian cities 200 years ago, Assyrian cities, yeah.
02:11:37.000 Have you seen?
02:11:38.000 I think he's an Italian guy.
02:11:40.000 There is a new paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids, and he's relying on erosion evidence.
02:11:48.000 Yeah, I think relative erosion method.
02:11:51.000 Donini, I think, is that.
02:11:51.000 Yes.
02:11:53.000 That's exactly him.
02:11:54.000 And he pushes it.
02:11:54.000 Yeah.
02:11:55.000 Way back.
02:11:57.000 Yeah, yeah.
02:11:58.000 He pushes it back as recently as, oh God, I want to say like 16,000.
02:12:05.000 And then the high end is 35,000 plus.
02:12:08.000 Yeah, it's crazy.
02:12:08.000 That's right.
02:12:10.000 Which is like, wait, what?
02:12:12.000 What are you talking about?
02:12:13.000 Like, this is a 35,000 year old building?
02:12:17.000 What does that even mean?
02:12:19.000 Who?
02:12:19.000 Speaking of, did you see that they retracted this?
02:12:22.000 Oh, Filippo Bioni.
02:12:23.000 Yes, he contacted me about this.
02:12:25.000 He's very upset.
02:12:26.000 Yeah.
02:12:27.000 They retracted it without any explanation, without any justification.
02:12:32.000 My, I'd like to call it nuanced take, is that I think, I don't think he's lying.
02:12:41.000 I don't think he's a fraud, but I think that he needs to just open source his method.
02:12:47.000 Because basically, you have this synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography, which is synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for radar imaging, and it radar images at very fine resolution.
02:12:58.000 And then you have this ability to measure micro vibrations that transmit into the satellite signal.
02:13:04.000 The thing that is only his, his and only his, is this Beyondy method, which is this software where he is able to deduce these structures.
02:13:14.000 You know, underneath the earth based on that.
02:13:16.000 So, do I think he's lying about the Grand Sasso Laboratory, which is, you know, this other sort of, I think, particle accelerator national lab out there that he was able to like perfectly measure and 1.2 kilometers into a mountain?
02:13:29.000 Yeah.
02:13:29.000 Into a mountain.
02:13:31.000 I would really hope not, and I don't think so.
02:13:33.000 And, but then at the same time, I think it's like, dude, you gotta, like, you're, you're talking about like a Nobel Prize or something here.
02:13:40.000 Like, just, just let it, like, either, you either have to get really, really rich and keep it closed source, or the preference.
02:13:47.000 That I would have, and I think that would be best for humanity.
02:13:50.000 It's just open source the thing.
02:13:52.000 And, you know, I think it's his life's work, so I think he's a little possessive around it.
02:13:56.000 But that would be the one thing where I'm like, dude, just let it out or let somebody else replicate it.
02:14:02.000 Because they've used this method to identify structures that are known to exist.
02:14:02.000 Interesting.
02:14:11.000 And they've, right?
02:14:13.000 Yeah.
02:14:13.000 And I think the, what is it?
02:14:16.000 The Osiris shaft, I think?
02:14:17.000 Yeah.
02:14:17.000 Yes.
02:14:18.000 So, and, And it got the right dimensions.
02:14:22.000 And if it's correct, if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator when it was looking at the particle accelerator, it got the exact dimensions of it.
02:14:32.000 It knew where it was.
02:14:34.000 And so it's like.
02:14:36.000 We need to dig.
02:14:38.000 We need to do something.
02:14:40.000 Well, there's all those.
02:14:41.000 That's the one thing that he brought up on the podcast those shafts that exist around there that have been filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time that they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out.
02:14:53.000 Like, what is.
02:14:54.000 Because we know that there are all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt.
02:15:00.000 Like, for sure, they know that that labyrinth exists.
02:15:05.000 Yes.
02:15:06.000 That Herodotus discovered and that he talked about in great detail.
02:15:11.000 They know from ground penetrating radar these great chambers in there.
02:15:15.000 Even Zahi Hawass will admit that there are tunnels underneath the Sphinx.
02:15:19.000 Right.
02:15:19.000 So, like, I think more likely than not, there is something underneath the pyramids.
02:15:23.000 And then we just have to dig.
02:15:23.000 Yeah.
02:15:25.000 We got to get down there.
02:15:26.000 And if you're.
02:15:27.000 Egypt, and you're the Ministry of Culture, that's the most GDP boosting thing you can think of.
02:15:32.000 Oh, God.
02:15:33.000 Could you imagine if both, is it, what's the other guy's name?
02:15:38.000 The Italian guy, the erosion guy?
02:15:41.000 Donini.
02:15:41.000 I think Donini.
02:15:42.000 If Donini and Biondi, first of all, what a great fucking Italian duo.
02:15:48.000 Like, if these two guys from Italy have cracked two different things, one of them with erosion science and the other one with ground penetrating Doppler tomography, if those guys are correct, you're going to have like an.
02:16:02.000 A gigantic group of new people that want to come and check out Egypt.
02:16:06.000 That would be so awesome.
02:16:07.000 Yeah.
02:16:08.000 But you have to get past these gatekeepers of the timeline.
02:16:11.000 The gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist that 2500 BC is about as good as it gets.
02:16:16.000 Yeah.
02:16:17.000 And it's like, it's all good.
02:16:19.000 It's the land that modern Egypt is on.
02:16:22.000 Like, that's fine.
02:16:23.000 Like, you can sort of take pride in the fact, even if it's older and it's not necessarily like.
02:16:30.000 It's still Egypt.
02:16:31.000 It's still Egypt.
02:16:31.000 It's amazing.
02:16:32.000 Really dumb about the critics of these theories.
02:16:35.000 They all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people.
02:16:38.000 Like you and I are fucking alien kooks.
02:16:41.000 And we're not trying to.
02:16:42.000 We're saying, like, no, it's probably people had a super advanced civilization in that part of the world a long time ago.
02:16:49.000 And what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact trying to recreate some of these ancient structures.
02:16:58.000 And these ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2500 BC.
02:17:05.000 Yeah, and you have to throw spaghetti at the wall.
02:17:08.000 Like, it's like it's your duty to speculate because.
02:17:11.000 The conventional narratives don't make any sense at all.
02:17:15.000 And you have people grasping this rather than this.
02:17:17.000 There's a French guy, Jean Pierre Houdin, who is like, you know, civil engineering chops, and he's talking about like an external ramp, but then an external ramp would, you know, the incline would be too, too high for these, you know, megaton bricks, you know, blocks.
02:17:31.000 So then you end up with an internal ramp as well.
02:17:34.000 So it's like, we are, that is like the best explanation, right?
02:17:38.000 Conventionally.
02:17:39.000 And so let's try to figure it out and let's be a little creative and we don't need to like, You know, stay so narrow.
02:17:46.000 Like, all these skeptics are like, they're, you know, attack dogs for what?
02:17:51.000 For what?
02:17:52.000 The problem is they don't want these Jimmy Corsettis and Michael Buttons and all of these people that have enormous following on online to have any point.
02:18:04.000 They don't want that.
02:18:05.000 They want to dismiss them outright, which is why they always use the same pejoratives.
02:18:10.000 They always call them racists.
02:18:11.000 And white supremacy is one that they've attached to Graham, which is hilarious because.
02:18:16.000 Married to an Indian woman.
02:18:18.000 The whole thing is so stupid.
02:18:19.000 He's the most non racist person you're ever going to meet in your life.
02:18:22.000 He's just completely open minded.
02:18:24.000 And also, that doesn't take away all the factual data, all the stuff that's really weird, that's hard to describe.
02:18:35.000 When you're talking about a structure that is perfectly aligned almost to true north, south, east, and west, and has 2,300,000 stones and used to be covered in smooth limestone.
02:18:47.000 And somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created and is bare minimum 4,500 years old.
02:18:58.000 That is a mind fuck.
02:19:00.000 And anybody who says that's not a mind fuck, and when you're talking about some of the stones, like particularly in the King's Chamber, that are hundreds of tons or 100 tons or 80 tons or whatever they are, and it's from hundreds of miles away through the mountains with no roads, no heavy machinery, and They're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place.
02:19:24.000 Perfectly.
02:19:26.000 Totally.
02:19:27.000 There's also the weird mind fuck of the sarcophagus in the king's chamber, which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in it.
02:19:38.000 Yes.
02:19:38.000 No way.
02:19:39.000 Really?
02:19:39.000 Oh, there's a lot of people that believe this.
02:19:41.000 There's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity, too.
02:19:44.000 They tried to say that there's a higher level of radioactivity inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls.
02:19:51.000 But the problem is.
02:19:52.000 When people talk about radiation and stones, like stones are, they have a certain level of radiation just inherently.
02:20:01.000 You know, like you can, like the sun has radiation.
02:20:05.000 Yeah.
02:20:06.000 Like there's Geiger counters can go off.
02:20:09.000 But the people that are like, they're really out there, they think that that might have been the positioning for the Ark of the Covenant and that it measures, like if you look at the Bible's description of the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, It fits conveniently inside the sarcophagus in the king's chamber.
02:20:09.000 Yeah.
02:20:27.000 Whoa, that's crazy.
02:20:29.000 It is crazy.
02:20:29.000 What's also crazy is that Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible and these Ethiopian religious people who have supposedly this group of people that are supposed to watch over the Ark of the Covenant and that they are in possession of it and that these people that watch over it all develop cataracts and they can only do it for a little while and then they wind up dying.
02:20:54.000 So they have like short tenures as the watchers of this, whatever the fuck this is.
02:21:00.000 Object is that they're calling the Ark of the Covenant.
02:21:02.000 Stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside.
02:21:05.000 He was so afraid.
02:21:06.000 This was actually, I think, one of his first articles for like a magazine before he got into all this.
02:21:10.000 This is how it got him into it in the first place.
02:21:11.000 Got into it in the first place.
02:21:12.000 You know, another crazy story is I think it's Sir James Bruce was looking for the Ark of the Covenant and he found the Book of Enoch, but he was searching for the Ark of the Covenant.
02:21:23.000 But yeah, they think it's an axe of Ethiopia and there are Templar crosses, I believe, on a church there as well.
02:21:30.000 And so, and Graham talks about this.
02:21:32.000 And so that's his connection because they, you know, there are obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded, you know, after the destruction of the temple, the Ark of the Covenant.
02:21:42.000 And so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia.
02:21:46.000 Which is wild.
02:21:47.000 It's so wild.
02:21:48.000 If that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus, in the king's chamber, in the pyramid, whatever that thing is.
02:21:57.000 It's so, I mean, the one maybe counter argument or something I'd be curious about would be.
02:22:05.000 The Nazis were obsessed with the Ark of the Covenant.
02:22:07.000 Like the Indiana Jones plot is like legit.
02:22:09.000 Yeah.
02:22:09.000 Like Himmler would go on these weird quests or whatever around this stuff.
02:22:14.000 And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around that time, I believe, right?
02:22:20.000 Or like, why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this object?
02:22:25.000 Maybe they weren't aware.
02:22:26.000 Maybe they weren't aware.
02:22:27.000 Who knows?
02:22:28.000 This guy, Ollendorf, says he went and saw it in 1941 and that it's a replica.
02:22:35.000 He stated that he gained access to.
02:22:37.000 In 1941, because he spoke classic, oh, how do you say that?
02:22:41.000 Gi'ez, and appeared serious.
02:22:44.000 However, he asserted the box inside was empty and described it as an empty middle to late medieval replica rather than the true biblical artifact.
02:22:53.000 So he's the only guy that's gained access.
02:22:56.000 And this was in 1941.
02:22:57.000 He's a British officer during World War II and later a professor of Ethiopian studies at the University of London.
02:23:04.000 Interesting.
02:23:04.000 I want to know the details.
02:23:06.000 Like, how does he know that it's an artifact?
02:23:08.000 Or it's a replica.
02:23:09.000 Or it's, yeah, sorry, that's a replica rather.
02:23:11.000 Yeah.
02:23:13.000 I did look this up just, I think, yesterday.
02:23:15.000 Oh, you did?
02:23:16.000 Rabbit hole.
02:23:17.000 Jamie, Captain Rabbit hole over here.
02:23:19.000 I was, I found on this rabbit hole because I was trying to find out where it happened to the staff of Moses.
02:23:24.000 I just was thinking about weird things that existed in history.
02:23:27.000 And also the Ark of the Covenant.
02:23:28.000 Last time it was actually known where it was was 586 BC.
02:23:33.000 Ooh.
02:23:34.000 So, like, when Jesus was around, no one knew where it was.
02:23:37.000 That's interesting.
02:23:39.000 586.
02:23:40.000 So, hundreds of years before him.
02:23:41.000 600 years before Jesus.
02:23:43.000 Wow.
02:23:44.000 Yeah, I know the walls of Jericho were supposed to come down, I think, to the Ark of the Covenant.
02:23:48.000 Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem.
02:23:52.000 They tore down the cathedral.
02:23:54.000 Which also, I stumbled across something called the Madaba map.
02:23:58.000 No.
02:23:58.000 Have you heard of that?
02:24:00.000 It was found, it's a mosaic of ancient Jerusalem found around 6 CE.
02:24:10.000 And it shows, I've never heard of this before, so I was actually trying to show you the best way to describe it, but.
02:24:15.000 It's all in like ancient Greece.
02:24:17.000 It was a mosaic underneath the floor in a different church that they found while they were about to make a new church.
02:24:24.000 So they were doing like reconstruction.
02:24:26.000 And they found this map of ancient.
02:24:29.000 It's pointing things out here.
02:24:30.000 This isn't the best way to describe it.
02:24:31.000 I'm sorry.
02:24:32.000 But they've mapped it all and found things that I think it was found in like 1895, right around the turn of the century.
02:24:41.000 So it shows like where Jerusalem was, where all these things are in reference to each other, and all these places that were in the Bible and whatnot.
02:24:48.000 Wow.
02:24:48.000 And I guess people didn't know about them.
02:24:50.000 And that's when some of this stuff is getting validated.
02:24:53.000 Jordan's Madaba map.
02:24:55.000 That's what it looks like?
02:24:56.000 That's the actual image?
02:24:57.000 Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's old school, you know, I guess, tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic, was covered up probably multiple times.
02:25:09.000 So wild.
02:25:10.000 Well, then there's the weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant, and the dimensions match this object that's on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where supposedly it landed in the Bible.
02:25:20.000 What?
02:25:21.000 Yes.
02:25:22.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:25:22.000 Really?
02:25:22.000 There's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat.
02:25:27.000 Is that the Moses' staff?
02:25:29.000 This one is.
02:25:30.000 So, this, it turns out, I don't know if this is real.
02:25:33.000 This is where I was, the rabbit hole was getting real weird here.
02:25:36.000 It's in a palace in Istanbul, I believe, where there's other relics.
02:25:43.000 It's like the Palace of Relics or something like that.
02:25:45.000 There's the sword of the prophet David from 10 BC.
02:25:51.000 Somehow they got, you know, David and Goliath.
02:25:53.000 What?
02:25:54.000 Yeah.
02:25:54.000 King David.
02:25:55.000 And there's a bunch of things from Muhammad there.
02:25:57.000 There's like a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard.
02:26:00.000 Um, Well, I don't, and that's what I don't, to say it's not real, I don't know.
02:26:06.000 It just looks like a stick, but the biblical like descriptions of it are that it turned into a serpent at one point.
02:26:14.000 You know, this is what parted the Red Sea.
02:26:17.000 Hmm.
02:26:18.000 Go to the Mount Ararat stuff, because the Mount Ararat stuff is really weird.
02:26:23.000 There's even like a whole touristy center that you can go there where they describe it as being the landing spot of Noah's Ark, but apparently.
02:26:32.000 What's weird is the analysis of the ground underneath it and that there's organic material that aligns with the dimensions of the boat.
02:26:45.000 No way.
02:26:46.000 Yeah.
02:26:46.000 It's really weird.
02:26:48.000 Well, just the object itself, like whatever the fuck that is.
02:26:50.000 Oh, this is in Eastern Turkey.
02:26:52.000 It's on Mount Ararat.
02:26:52.000 Yes.
02:26:53.000 I heard about it.
02:26:54.000 Yeah.
02:26:54.000 Just the dimensions itself.
02:26:56.000 Fucking weird.
02:26:58.000 Like, what is that thing that's up there?
02:27:00.000 And so when they analyze it, like you see, it has what appears to be.
02:27:06.000 Chambers, and then also what appears to be the remnants of some sort of organic material, which would be wood that was used in the construction of this thing.
02:27:16.000 There was something recent about it, though.
02:27:19.000 See if you can find news.
02:27:21.000 Go to news.
02:27:22.000 This is what I thought I saw.
02:27:23.000 I saw this, and I don't.
02:27:25.000 I'd just seen this video where someone's inside and they're claiming this has got to be a claim because I don't know how they got here and where this video came from.
02:27:36.000 This is the same guy who made the UFO video.
02:27:38.000 And, like, they're showing them.
02:27:40.000 I think when you get down here, they show, like, pieces of wood.
02:27:42.000 That's Noah's dick.
02:27:43.000 Or it looks good.
02:27:45.000 Yeah.
02:27:45.000 He's showing pieces of wood.
02:27:47.000 Or what looks, I mean, it's Noah arc scans.
02:27:52.000 God, how much wood is left from 2,000 years ago?
02:27:56.000 I saw this piece on Instagram, I think, where it was not the entire 45 minute video.
02:27:56.000 Or more?
02:28:00.000 There was some news of the analysis of that that I saw online.
02:28:09.000 April 22nd, this is my bad.
02:28:11.000 Researcher believes Noah's Ark found in Turkey after new underground scans.
02:28:15.000 Yeah.
02:28:16.000 So, researchers working in Turkey say fresh scanned data, this is from April, uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long debated landform, bolstering their case that the site may be a man made object they believe to be Noah's Ark.
02:28:30.000 I do believe this is real, decayed, buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship, and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site.
02:28:39.000 The tricky thing is for carbon dating, you do need organic material.
02:28:45.000 Oh, yeah.
02:28:46.000 And not only that, it's like the tricky thing is like the whole story doesn't make sense.
02:28:51.000 Take two of each animal, and then what happens?
02:28:53.000 Animals eat other animals.
02:28:54.000 So, how does that work out?
02:28:55.000 You've got to.
02:28:56.000 You know, in the Bible, they're supposedly waited.
02:28:59.000 They waited until the animals gave birth to a bunch of different animals before they ate them.
02:29:03.000 It's insane.
02:29:04.000 Okay, what?
02:29:06.000 Are you a kid?
02:29:06.000 What?
02:29:09.000 It's just like, I mean, it literally sounds like, you know, like a child wrote a story.
02:29:14.000 It's very, very goofy.
02:29:15.000 But then you get into the fact that there are like 400 or so flood myths across the world.
02:29:19.000 Disparate cultures, some of them never had contact with one another.
02:29:22.000 Yes, definitely.
02:29:24.000 And then you also get into the idea that it's not maybe the whole world that flooded, it's this immediate area.
02:29:31.000 And that this idea of he took two of each animal, maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards.
02:29:39.000 And these other animals did not go extinct.
02:29:41.000 And then maybe the story over time becomes he got fucking giraffes walked there from Africa.
02:29:49.000 Like, where are you getting horses?
02:29:50.000 You know, how are you getting eagles?
02:29:52.000 Like, how are you getting everybody on this thing?
02:29:54.000 It doesn't even make sense.
02:29:55.000 And real discoveries are often motivated by myth, like motivated by Homer and Herodotus stories about the Peloponnesian War.
02:30:04.000 You had this German businessman, Heinrich von Schleimann, who spent all his money looking for Troy and eventually found it.
02:30:11.000 Yeah, which is wild.
02:30:12.000 Wild.
02:30:12.000 Another story would be Plato talking about this flood.
02:30:17.000 He's talking about it in the Atlantis context.
02:30:20.000 Obviously, it's a dialogue, and it's, I think, the Timaeus and Cretaeus dialogue.
02:30:25.000 And This is told at a mythos festival 600 BC, and they say 9,000 years ago this great flood happened, and then you line it up, and that's meltwater pulse 1b, which is probably the flood that got us out of the ice age.
02:30:37.000 So to discount myth entirely as non historical, I think is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
02:30:44.000 Right.
02:30:44.000 The timeline aligns with the theory of the Younger Dryas Impact Theory.
02:30:49.000 Exactly.
02:30:50.000 The Great Flood and the Younger Dryas Impact Theory align with the timeline that Plato.
02:30:55.000 How the fuck could Plato have known when he's saying 9,000 years?
02:30:58.000 Like how.
02:30:59.000 How is it so perfectly aligned?
02:31:01.000 That seems a little convenient.
02:31:02.000 Yeah.
02:31:03.000 I think if there was a Noah's Ark, it was probably, well, first of all, how does he know it's coming?
02:31:09.000 How long does it take to make this boat?
02:31:11.000 You know, that's where it gets really weird.
02:31:12.000 Like, does this guy actually have a premonition?
02:31:15.000 Is he actually attuned to some sort of psychic energy?
02:31:19.000 Or does God, or for lack of a better term, actually talk to this guy and say, hey, dude, some shit is about to go down?
02:31:27.000 And didn't it take him.
02:31:28.000 I want to say the biblical account is it took him 100 years to make it.
02:31:34.000 Oh, I don't even know.
02:31:35.000 That is back when they were living for hundreds and hundreds of years.
02:31:40.000 He was 777 years old and was 182 when he had Noah.
02:31:40.000 Methuselah.
02:31:44.000 Normal.
02:31:46.000 Normal stuff.
02:31:48.000 David Sinclair, help us.
02:31:49.000 Let's get back there.
02:31:49.000 Well, this is the real thought if David Sinclair is correct, and I think he is, if they can figure out a way to.
02:32:01.000 Somehow or another, access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes us to age and reverse that or change that.
02:32:09.000 How do we not know that if you got a civilization that could build the pyramids, how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan?
02:32:17.000 Aaron Powell, Jr.
02:32:18.000 100%.
02:32:18.000 And if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out Horvath clocks, DNA methylation clocks, biological age versus chronological age, I'm sure you talked to Brigham about all sorts of novel, crazy things he's looking into with stem cells and the amazing things they do.
02:32:18.000 Yeah.
02:32:36.000 Why was that not necessarily discovered before and just erased from the historical record?
02:32:40.000 Aaron Powell, Jr.
02:32:41.000 Easily could have been.
02:32:42.000 If there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper advanced civilization that's capable of engineering feats that we still can't replicate today, which I think is the case, because there's a lot of people who say we could build the pyramids today, fuck you, okay?
02:32:56.000 Fuck you.
02:32:57.000 No one has, go do it, go do it, shut your mouth.
02:33:00.000 The biblical account no one's family were in the ark for about a year, often calculated as roughly 370 days.
02:33:08.000 Wow, they were in that boat for a year, that's crazy, bro.
02:33:11.000 That sucks.
02:33:12.000 You think those guys are stuck in Iran have it bad, Genesis.
02:33:16.000 Dates their entry to the 17th day of the second month of Noah's 600th year and their exit on the 27th day of the second month of his 601st year.
02:33:28.000 It rained for 40 days and 40 nights.
02:33:33.000 How long did it take him to build the ark?
02:33:35.000 It says 120 years.
02:33:39.000 Does Nada give a precise construction time?
02:33:42.000 The commonly repeated 120 years is a traditional interpretation.
02:33:47.000 Of Genesis 6 3, rather than an explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years.
02:33:54.000 Well, it's all, you know, you're getting into when you're getting into ages like that.
02:33:58.000 What's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended lifespans.
02:34:08.000 That's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians, when you know, the Zephtedi, and then when you get into the ancient Sumerians, Kings List, like they, when you go the further back.
02:34:20.000 These motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years, reigning for thousands of years.
02:34:25.000 And then after the flood, you start seeing ages align with modern human ages, which is really weird.
02:34:35.000 Really weird.
02:34:36.000 Yeah.
02:34:36.000 It's like, okay, what?
02:34:38.000 And so the way archaeologists dismiss it, they say, oh, that was just myth.
02:34:43.000 But along with this myth, particularly with the Sumerians, you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted.
02:34:55.000 In the same texts.
02:34:57.000 So, what's going on?
02:34:59.000 100%.
02:35:00.000 And I think natural selection is a real theory.
02:35:04.000 There are people who deny it, and I think it is a locally extremely useful, legit theory.
02:35:10.000 But there's a great philosopher of science called Karl Popper, and he had this whole thing of materialist promissory notes, where you have issues in evolution, natural selection, you have punctuated equilibria, this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record, things that are very hard to explain.
02:35:27.000 And we just like to fill in the gaps.
02:35:29.000 And we don't know.
02:35:30.000 You know, there was actually a really interesting German guy named, I think it was Richard Goldschmidt.
02:35:37.000 And he had this idea of, he was an evolutionary theorist and he had this idea of hopeful monsters.
02:35:42.000 And so you'd get these mating between interspecies.
02:35:45.000 So, you know, a mule would be a good example, or like a tiger and a liger.
02:35:50.000 And every once in a while, like it would like hit this ecological niche and like, you know, actually make sense for the local ecology.
02:35:57.000 And then it would sort of persist.
02:35:59.000 And I think he's largely been debunked.
02:36:02.000 But I spoke with this DARPA dude who was like, I can say this because we didn't end up pursuing it.
02:36:09.000 But you know the movie The Shape of Water, the Guillermo del Torto?
02:36:12.000 He was like, at one point, we were thinking about stuff like that, like interspecies.
02:36:18.000 Yeah, yeah.
02:36:19.000 And I don't know if it was like humans and other species, but it was like inspired by this guy, Richard Goldschmidt.
02:36:25.000 Well, you know, the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a chimpanzee for war.
02:36:31.000 That's crazy.
02:36:32.000 I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins.
02:36:35.000 No, this was, God, was it World War II?
02:36:39.000 It was World War II, right?
02:36:40.000 So it was World War II.
02:36:43.000 Who was it?
02:36:44.000 Was it Stalin?
02:36:46.000 That's crazy.
02:36:48.000 I don't know if we would know officially.
02:36:50.000 I just remember the guy was doing it on his own for sure.
02:36:53.000 Would have been Stalin.
02:36:54.000 I told him to do it.
02:36:55.000 I don't remember the story.
02:36:56.000 See if you can find it.
02:36:57.000 That's so wild.
02:36:59.000 So the idea was look, Russia lost like 20 million.
02:37:03.000 Men during World War II.
02:37:06.000 And I think the idea is like, why wouldn't it be better if people didn't fucking die?
02:37:10.000 Why don't we develop warriors?
02:37:12.000 And so I think they were trying to make a human chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war.
02:37:18.000 That is what it's saying now.
02:37:19.000 I don't know if it was official because he got in trouble for not telling the female volunteers what was going on.
02:37:28.000 Oh, Jesus.
02:37:29.000 Could you imagine?
02:37:31.000 Stay put, honey.
02:37:32.000 I'm just going to stick something up there and wonderful things will happen.
02:37:35.000 Jesus Christ.
02:37:36.000 Notorious Soviet era attempt, but no human ape hybrids were ever created.
02:37:40.000 But yes, it was a real attempt.
02:37:42.000 Russian Soviet biologist Ilya Ivanov proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring in the mid 1920s.
02:37:52.000 Okay, so it was after World War I. Soviet support.
02:37:57.000 He traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm.
02:38:03.000 None became pregnant.
02:38:05.000 He later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape sperm.
02:38:09.000 Historical accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea, but colonial authorities blocked the plan.
02:38:16.000 Back in Russia, he sought female volunteers, but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur, so no such insemination proceeded.
02:38:27.000 Sounds like a great person.
02:38:29.000 Yeah, what a great guy.
02:38:30.000 Wonderful dude.
02:38:31.000 But it's kind of crazy that that was.
02:38:34.000 I mean, imagine if it worked and then they just created like a million of them and just.
02:38:41.000 Armed them.
02:38:42.000 Well, also, where are we headed with CRISPR and the ability to, you know, get it to do the genome?
02:38:49.000 Right.
02:38:49.000 Well, also, what the fuck is going to stop them from turning around and taking over Russia?
02:38:54.000 Like, why would they listen to you?
02:38:56.000 Like, you're giving them guns.
02:38:56.000 Right.
02:38:59.000 They're way more violent.
02:39:00.000 They're super territorial.
02:39:01.000 They're way stronger.
02:39:03.000 And also, they're going to recognize that you made them to go die.
02:39:06.000 And they're going to be really resentful of these fucking pink little fleshy.
02:39:11.000 Fucking water balloons of meat and tissue that are so vulnerable compared to them.
02:39:18.000 It's like, yeah, it's like you created me.
02:39:20.000 It's like, it's Planet of the Apes.
02:39:22.000 It's Planet of the Apes.
02:39:23.000 It's also the way people talk about AI.
02:39:25.000 It's like very analogous.
02:39:27.000 Very much so.
02:39:28.000 Yeah.
02:39:28.000 Very much so.
02:39:30.000 We are always meddling.
02:39:33.000 We're always meddling.
02:39:34.000 Which makes me think something more advanced would probably meddle with us.
02:39:39.000 That's right.
02:39:39.000 Just do it a little bit more subtly.
02:39:41.000 And they would do it.
02:39:43.000 At the bound, like it makes sense that UFOs to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes' lever of destruction.
02:39:51.000 Those are the points of most leverage, the hinge points of civilizational collapse.
02:39:56.000 It is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and saw this thing hovering above a live hydrogen bomb.
02:40:04.000 That feels like it makes sense.
02:40:06.000 Yeah.
02:40:07.000 You know?
02:40:07.000 And it, like, if you were governing a system, you would look at those nodes.
02:40:12.000 Right.
02:40:13.000 You look at the actually, there's a great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman, and he says if you're like guarding, if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation, you look at the exit paths.
02:40:23.000 So I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation one would be high energy physics.
02:40:28.000 So, particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation, and nuclear, like stuff where you're really pushing at the boundaries of space time.
02:40:37.000 So, I think that's why these things show up at national labs, nuclear sites, a lot of really hardcore kind of experimentation.
02:40:44.000 And then consciousness.
02:40:46.000 I think that would be the other exit path.
02:40:47.000 And so, that's why I think these things show up when we're sort of communing with this higher thing.
02:40:52.000 Right.
02:40:52.000 And it also makes sense why they show up when you're sleeping, right?
02:40:56.000 Like, if you're having these encounters, like all these abduction experiences, the great many of them, Happen at night.
02:41:04.000 And it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive for us to sleep?
02:41:04.000 Right.
02:41:04.000 Yeah.
02:41:09.000 Right.
02:41:10.000 It doesn't really make sense.
02:41:11.000 It's terrible.
02:41:12.000 It's terrible.
02:41:13.000 And we sleep deeper than like most animals.
02:41:16.000 And so we can be walked up on by predators.
02:41:18.000 And there's so many nocturnal predators.
02:41:20.000 Absolutely.
02:41:21.000 So stupid idea.
02:41:22.000 Why wouldn't that get selected out?
02:41:24.000 Maybe something important happens during sleep.
02:41:27.000 Yeah.
02:41:27.000 Who knows?
02:41:28.000 But like it seems like, yeah, we don't understand any of that stuff the dream, dreaming, sleeping, and.
02:41:28.000 Yeah.
02:41:34.000 It's probably adaptive in some way we don't understand.
02:41:37.000 Yeah.
02:41:38.000 And they're like, what is happening when we're sleeping?
02:41:40.000 I told you about my crazy dream, the one crazy dream that I had that still to this day kind of.
02:41:45.000 It's very foggy now because it's months and months after the fact.
02:41:49.000 But the day of that dream, I was shook.
02:41:53.000 I was really shook.
02:41:55.000 It almost feels like, if I were to analyze that dream, it's like they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something.
02:42:05.000 So it was like.
02:42:06.000 It was like our limbic, sort of reptilian.
02:42:09.000 Because in every man, you have your sort of reptile self, and then you have your like more aspirational self or something.
02:42:15.000 And maybe they were sort of like holding that at bay.
02:42:18.000 And they were, you said to me, you were like, these beings, these like future human, alien looking beings, were telling you, like, this is a brittle experiment.
02:42:28.000 Like, this whole thing you've got set up, this could end tomorrow.
02:42:31.000 Like, we're here sort of protecting you.
02:42:33.000 There was a very flimsy barrier between the crocodiles.
02:42:37.000 And whatever was in the water.
02:42:39.000 And I was like, that's it?
02:42:40.000 That's the only thing that's stopping?
02:42:41.000 This is like a fucking traffic cone and some tape or something like that.
02:42:46.000 Some plastic bars.
02:42:47.000 It was like, I don't remember specifically, but I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water.
02:42:56.000 So fascinating.
02:42:57.000 But also the weirdness of them.
02:43:00.000 Like their bodies, they were very slender and kind of tall, but no muscle at all, no strength at all, and larger heads.
02:43:10.000 Very odd looking, almost Asian looking, very weird.
02:43:14.000 And they were playing with me a little bit, like spooking me.
02:43:16.000 Ha ha.
02:43:18.000 And it was very strange, but it was so vivid.
02:43:21.000 That's the weird part.
02:43:22.000 That's what's so trippy to me, where I'm like, maybe it was an experience.
02:43:26.000 It's hard to say.
02:43:27.000 It's impossible to declaratively say it wasn't, right?
02:43:31.000 It's hard to know what a dream is in the first place.
02:43:34.000 Like, what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place?
02:43:34.000 Yeah.
02:43:38.000 Yeah.
02:43:38.000 Totally.
02:43:39.000 It seems like you're working out problems.
02:43:39.000 What is that?
02:43:41.000 Like a lot of times, people are working out issues.
02:43:44.000 That's why they say sleep on it.
02:43:45.000 I think there's something to that old wives, you know, the old wisdom of sleep on it.
02:43:51.000 It's almost like you're because it does feel like sometimes like issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them or you're like, you're like working them out by experiencing them, but in like a padded walls sort of way in the dream where like you don't want to work that out in 3D reality.
02:44:09.000 And so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something.
02:44:12.000 Maybe.
02:44:12.000 I don't know.
02:44:13.000 Yeah.
02:44:13.000 Who knows?
02:44:14.000 But it's weird that I've had so many dreams that have been, you know, even crazy dreams.
02:44:17.000 Like, wow, that was nuts.
02:44:19.000 But nothing like kept me from going back to sleep.
02:44:21.000 Yeah, that's what's so trippy about it is like you went and worked out right after.
02:44:25.000 I could not sleep.
02:44:26.000 I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards trying to go back to sleep.
02:44:29.000 I'm like, I am not going back to sleep.
02:44:31.000 Like, whatever the fuck that was, was way too real.
02:44:34.000 Like, way more real than any dream I'd had before.
02:44:37.000 If I was an alien or a future human, I would definitely visit you.
02:44:42.000 Whatever it is, I mean, whether or not it's my imagination, just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and.
02:44:52.000 DMT or whatever it was, it created this very vivid thing.
02:44:55.000 It's either that, my super hyperactive imagination, or an encounter.
02:45:01.000 It's hard to know what it was.
02:45:02.000 But what it was was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before.
02:45:07.000 Yeah.
02:45:07.000 Well, I think that's a beautiful thing, like, that's all you can say about it.
02:45:12.000 Yeah, I mean, but that's being honest.
02:45:13.000 Yeah.
02:45:14.000 But it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience.
02:45:18.000 Like, how much do they elaborate?
02:45:20.000 How much do they expand?
02:45:21.000 Sure.
02:45:22.000 How much do they try to justify their experience rather than saying, I don't know what the fuck that was?
02:45:27.000 Yeah, totally.
02:45:28.000 I think in many cases, the honest thing is, I don't know.
02:45:32.000 I don't know what the beings were.
02:45:33.000 I don't know where they were from.
02:45:34.000 And it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif.
02:45:40.000 And it's why the Pentagon now uses non human intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous because it could be AI or an animal or something.
02:45:48.000 I wonder why they changed that.
02:45:50.000 I think they changed it because they don't know definitively that it's extraterrestrial.
02:45:54.000 And the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk this stuff, the all domain anomalies resolution office that just likes to pour core, it's the modern blue book basically.
02:46:03.000 They often say we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation because they hinge it on that conclusion.
02:46:12.000 That is a conclusion.
02:46:13.000 There's a lot of anomalous data, there's stuff showing up at our nuclear sites everywhere.
02:46:17.000 Donald Trump reportedly told Inner Circle aliens are living in Earth's oceans.
02:46:22.000 I've heard he said that too.
02:46:24.000 He alluded to that.
02:46:25.000 Remember the Jersey drone flap in November of 2024?
02:46:27.000 He kind of alluded to it.
02:46:28.000 He goes, We know they're coming from a garage.
02:46:30.000 It's a weird place.
02:46:32.000 It's a garage.
02:46:33.000 We have no idea what they are, but they're in the ocean.
02:46:36.000 This is according to Jack Osborne, who said it, I think, to Andy Stumpf.
02:46:41.000 And he said that he has got a friend that talks to Trump frequently.
02:46:46.000 So I know Jack's source, actually.
02:46:51.000 Yeah.
02:46:53.000 And I don't think he's lying.
02:46:53.000 Yeah.
02:46:55.000 Well, this is also what multiple people have said that there's something in the ocean.
02:47:02.000 You know, and this is.
02:47:03.000 Yeah.
02:47:04.000 No, I just had on the Navy's chief oceanographer who we just talked about.
02:47:09.000 He was head of NOAA.
02:47:10.000 Yeah, I saw that.
02:47:11.000 And, you know, he talks about tons and tons of sightings, tons of Navy sightings.
02:47:11.000 Yeah.
02:47:17.000 I mean, the three sightings that were popularized, the videos that were popularized in the 2017 New York Times article, which is whether you like that article or not, they got some things wrong, very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement.
02:47:31.000 Very responsible for people.
02:47:33.000 All of a sudden, taking it seriously.
02:47:34.000 100%.
02:47:35.000 Yeah, it slapped that credibility onto the whole issue.
02:47:38.000 Those were Navy cases.
02:47:39.000 Those were all Navy cases.
02:47:40.000 The Nimitz sighting, GoFast, and Gimbal were all Navy.
02:47:44.000 And so, yeah, there's a long history.
02:47:45.000 I mean, the Bluegill Triple Prime thing I mentioned with Harold Malmgren was Navy as well.
02:47:49.000 You know, you have Tim Burchett saying there are five or six hot spots, you know, on ocean floors.
02:47:54.000 And then you have Bob Lazar saying, you know, actually, that was taken out of context.
02:47:58.000 You know, people are saying the craft he worked on, the sports model, was found in an archaeological dig.
02:48:04.000 It was actually found on the seafloor.
02:48:06.000 Yeah.
02:48:07.000 And I think the Office of Naval Intelligence knows a lot about this whole topic.
02:48:10.000 In fact, Jay Stratton.
02:48:12.000 Where was the information that it was found on the seafloor?
02:48:14.000 That's what he says.
02:48:15.000 And I think he might have said Barry has, like.
02:48:17.000 We said one of them came from an archaeological dig.
02:48:20.000 Yes.
02:48:21.000 But it wasn't the sport model?
02:48:23.000 I think.
02:48:24.000 I thought it was.
02:48:25.000 Oh, I don't know if it was.
02:48:26.000 Maybe it wasn't the sport model.
02:48:27.000 It wasn't the sport model.
02:48:28.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:48:29.000 He said one of them, I was told, actually came from an archaeological dig and it's really old.
02:48:34.000 It might have not been the sport model.
02:48:36.000 That's the other weird thing.
02:48:37.000 But he said it was the seafloor.
02:48:38.000 The labyrinth.
02:48:40.000 That Herodotus described.
02:48:40.000 What is it?
02:48:41.000 There's a tic tac.
02:48:42.000 There's a 40 meter long tic tac shaped metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium that's underground.
02:48:50.000 Just a 40 meter long piece of metal.
02:48:53.000 That's thousands and thousands of years old.
02:48:55.000 Like, what are you talking about?
02:48:57.000 It's so crazy.
02:48:57.000 How the fuck did they have 40 meters of metal back then?
02:49:00.000 Like, what is that?
02:49:01.000 It's so crazy.
02:49:02.000 40 meters is nuts.
02:49:03.000 It's so nuts.
02:49:04.000 40 meters is almost a half a football field.
02:49:06.000 It's huge.
02:49:07.000 It's a fucking massive piece of metal.
02:49:09.000 It's vertical.
02:49:10.000 I do not know.
02:49:11.000 Okay.
02:49:12.000 I do not know, but it's shaped like, you know, like a craft.
02:49:17.000 The other crazy thing Imagine if there's a fucking UFO under Egypt and you just got to dig and go get it.
02:49:22.000 It'd be so wild.
02:49:23.000 Well, the crazy thing, I know you've had your.
02:49:26.000 Referring to a lot of Ben Van Kirkwick's amazing work, he's been on your show a bunch.
02:49:29.000 He, I think, went to Dandera and the hieroglyphics there, like, translate to Stargate.
02:49:35.000 Yes.
02:49:36.000 That's crazy.
02:49:37.000 Like, what?
02:49:39.000 And then I think Stargate, you know, takes place at the pyramid, the pyramid is literally a portal.
02:49:44.000 And then if you combine that with the Christopher Dunn stuff or the Beyondy stuff, where either it's a generator of electricity or there's this other guy, amazing guy, Jeffrey Drum, who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant.
02:49:56.000 You know, like, Something was being done there, and maybe it had to do with some transcendent, you know.
02:49:56.000 Yeah, I've seen him.
02:50:03.000 And then it obviously, you know, it somewhat maps to Orion's belt as well.
02:50:06.000 So I don't know, maybe.
02:50:07.000 And then Orion's belt is the pathway that souls took in ancient times.
02:50:12.000 Oh, yeah.
02:50:15.000 It's, I never get tired of this subject.
02:50:18.000 As long as there's new information that comes out, they got me hooked forever.
02:50:18.000 It's so fun.
02:50:21.000 It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die.
02:50:24.000 Yeah, no, I feel the same.
02:50:25.000 It's, it's so like, And it's always like the cast of.
02:50:29.000 There's so much drama, too, and disclosure and stuff.
02:50:32.000 And it's just.
02:50:34.000 I don't know.
02:50:35.000 I do think in our lifetime we're going to make a lot of progress on it.
02:50:38.000 This is Herodotus's.
02:50:40.000 I hope so.
02:50:41.000 Herodotus's description had 12 roofed courts.
02:50:45.000 God, I can't talk.
02:50:47.000 Arranged in two rows, six facing north and six south, all enclosed by one outer wall.
02:50:53.000 It contained 3,000 chambers, 1,500 above ground and 1,500 underground.
02:50:59.000 Herodotus says he toured the upper chambers himself, but Egyptian custodians refused to show the lower ones.
02:51:05.000 They reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles.
02:51:14.000 What?
02:51:14.000 What?
02:51:15.000 That's so nuts.
02:51:16.000 Bro, that brings back to my stupid dream.
02:51:19.000 I was literally thinking that, yeah.
02:51:20.000 He emphasizes its bewildering internal circulation.
02:51:24.000 Visitors pass from courts to chambers, chambers to colonnades, and then to further rooms and courts.
02:51:33.000 Its roof was stone.
02:51:34.000 Its walls bore carved figures, and each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns.
02:51:42.000 And Pliny the Elder also had an account of this thing.
02:51:46.000 Like this was.
02:51:47.000 Well, it's, I mean, also, like with ground penetrating radar, they know it exists.
02:51:50.000 They know it exists.
02:51:51.000 These chambers actually do exist.
02:51:53.000 And that's the weird thing about whatever that metallic object is.
02:51:56.000 They can, and they don't know what metal it is either.
02:52:00.000 It doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron.
02:52:02.000 They don't know what the fuck it is.
02:52:03.000 That's so wild.
02:52:04.000 The nook, Crocodile.
02:52:05.000 The Labrador surpasses even the pyramids.
02:52:07.000 Wow.
02:52:08.000 He says, I saw this myself.
02:52:09.000 I found it greater than words can say.
02:52:12.000 That is so wild.
02:52:14.000 That is so crazy.
02:52:16.000 Imagine saying something's greater than the pyramids and it's under the ground.
02:52:19.000 And you are the Preeminent Greek historian.
02:52:21.000 Like you're writing about all the craziest shit.
02:52:23.000 And you're writing about it from a firsthand perspective.
02:52:26.000 It's not like he heard a story.
02:52:28.000 Yeah, you've seen it.
02:52:29.000 Yeah, this isn't like Homer.
02:52:32.000 I was watching the older Lex Friedman podcast and this linguist guy.
02:52:36.000 I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we talked about Gobekli Tepe.
02:52:40.000 Have you ever seen this thing?
02:52:41.000 What is that?
02:52:44.000 The way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then because this is not cuneiform.
02:52:52.000 Hmm.
02:52:54.000 And the way he, I mean, they get it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this, and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it, and he gives a very crazy explanation of language I had not heard, which it's like writing down sound in the same way that, like, a record is recording sound, you're writing down sounds, and it's like it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all those sounds were, so that you're all reading the same thing.
02:53:22.000 And so, Irving Finkel, scholar of ancient languages and longtime curator at the British Museum, renowned for his.
02:53:31.000 So, he's saying, like, the way that the other stuff is reliefs, that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been, you know, some record of some sort saying something was done and this is like a verification of that.
02:53:53.000 And this could have been some guy's last name.
02:53:55.000 There's further breakdowns I've seen, like maybe this snake is like the S sound.
02:53:59.000 And this could be some guy's name.
02:54:01.000 Who knows what it really could mean?
02:54:03.000 But this is going to, you know, 12,000 years ago when they thought we only were doing this for 3,000 or whatever.
02:54:10.000 Trippy.
02:54:11.000 Yeah, it's very weird.
02:54:12.000 It's all very weird.
02:54:13.000 They're just a history that we know of with the human race.
02:54:16.000 I mean, just when you get to these old structures that we know people made, like, when did they make them and why?
02:54:23.000 Like, why?
02:54:24.000 What is Gobekli Tepe?
02:54:25.000 What the fuck is that?
02:54:28.000 Do you think we see a shift?
02:54:31.000 In our understanding of humanity and our place in the cosmos in our lifetime.
02:54:36.000 Yeah, one funeral at a time.
02:54:38.000 Mm hmm.
02:54:39.000 Yes, that's how science progresses.
02:54:40.000 Uh huh.
02:54:41.000 Yeah.
02:54:41.000 Yeah.
02:54:42.000 I think that's pretty accurate.
02:54:44.000 One gatekeeper at a time.
02:54:45.000 Yeah, these old cocksuckers, they need to get out of the way.
02:54:49.000 I mean, I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting a narrative that they've been teaching, they've been writing books about, they've been saying they're the experts.
02:55:01.000 When you literally can't be, there's just not enough data.
02:55:05.000 What every period in history, like things get wholly overturned.
02:55:10.000 So if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with, then you're definitely on the wrong side of history.
02:55:16.000 Yeah.
02:55:16.000 We always say we're at the end of history, scientifically, historically, and then it always, you know, progresses.
02:55:21.000 And usually there's a that's when people are most saying we're at the end of history, you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and changes.
02:55:30.000 This is like the structure of scientific revolutions is written by a guy named Thomas Kuhn, who was actually, he was friends with John Mack and he.
02:55:37.000 Encouraged him to investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard.
02:55:41.000 He would say that there's a law of declining marginal returns in any scientific paradigm where you're just rounding out the final margins on a theory and you're so sure of it, like electromagnetism in the late 19th century.
02:55:54.000 And then, boom, you get total collapse because Max Planck figures out quanta and you get the quantum revolution.
02:56:01.000 Who are you to say so smugly that that's not going to happen now?
02:56:06.000 Of course it will.
02:56:07.000 Of course it will.
02:56:09.000 It's just what always has happened.
02:56:10.000 Yes.
02:56:11.000 And much like the UFO thing, when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what we really don't know, the people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves are most certainly the most wrong.
02:56:31.000 Yeah, 100%.
02:56:32.000 Yeah.
02:56:33.000 Because I think the whole thing is weird.
02:56:35.000 The UFO thing is weird, and the ancient history thing is weird.
02:56:40.000 There's, there's, Too many unanswered questions.
02:56:40.000 Yeah.
02:56:44.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:56:45.000 And the answers that they have are really shitty.
02:56:49.000 There's too many really shitty answers.
02:56:51.000 This is kind of a weird analogy, but in like stock picking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock picking, like whether you're right or you're wrong, confidence can rise exponentially and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateaus.
02:57:06.000 And so that's often, I think it's the case in like, you know, in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident, you're so sure of yourself.
02:57:13.000 But your accuracy is only going like mildly up.
02:57:16.000 And it goes back to what we were talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state.
02:57:20.000 Yes.
02:57:21.000 It's like you got to get out of your own way with everything.
02:57:25.000 Totally.
02:57:26.000 And sometimes, you know, a great example is Marconi, who is responsible for inventing the radio by most accounts, him and Tesla, right?
02:57:34.000 He tried to send a signal across the Atlantic and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved.
02:57:40.000 And so he was like, you know, I'm going to send the signal.
02:57:43.000 It's going to work.
02:57:44.000 He was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving.
02:57:48.000 It just bounced off the ionosphere and then it landed across the Atlantic and the signal was received.
02:57:53.000 And so he was right because he was wrong.
02:57:56.000 And how many cases are like that where did Graham Hancock find the Ark of the Covenant?
02:58:02.000 No, he headed in this general westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization and he found something extremely special.
02:58:13.000 It helped popularize the Gebeckley Tepe narrative and this whole Younger Dryas period impact theory hypothesis.
02:58:19.000 So you have the same thing with James Bruce with the Ark of the Covenant.
02:58:23.000 You can shoot for the stars and land on the moon, you know, and that's okay.
02:58:28.000 But if you're just like this nitpicker, like annoying, smug, you know, academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld, like what is your contribution to humanity?
02:58:39.000 Right.
02:58:40.000 Like, what are you doing?
02:58:41.000 And there's a lot of those.
02:58:41.000 Yeah.
02:58:42.000 There's so many.
02:58:44.000 But I think even some of those people, and I'm not saying that all of the attributes I just mentioned apply to Neil deGrasse Tyson, but some of those people are now updating on UFOs.
02:58:44.000 Yeah.
02:58:56.000 And it's wild because, like, you have a documentary, you know, The Age of Disclosure, where all these high ranking intel people are saying UFOs are real repeatedly in front of a chalkboard, saying they are real.
02:59:08.000 Take my word for it.
02:59:09.000 And it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like, okay, they're probably not like lying to me, you know?
02:59:16.000 And then you end up with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like, look, okay, this is an overwhelming amount of accounts.
02:59:21.000 Now, I do think there's probably something here and we should look into it.
02:59:24.000 And it's like, dude, you weren't doing science before.
02:59:28.000 But is all it took a documentary?
02:59:29.000 That doesn't make any sense.
02:59:30.000 No, it's criticism.
02:59:32.000 Yeah.
02:59:32.000 He's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason.
02:59:37.000 That's right.
02:59:37.000 Yeah.
02:59:38.000 Because I think, like, when he was on the podcast with me, I got very upset with him when he was like, Why would they be interested in us?
02:59:45.000 And I told him, I go, That one drives me crazy.
02:59:48.000 And I tried to explain why it drives me crazy.
02:59:50.000 He kept interjecting.
02:59:51.000 And I'm like, Okay.
02:59:54.000 Yeah, just stop.
02:59:56.000 Just stop with that idea that we're not interesting.
02:59:58.000 We're territorial apes with nuclear weapons who fucking send FaceTime videos to people on the other side of the planet.
03:00:04.000 That's real weird.
03:00:06.000 We're apes with nukes.
03:00:07.000 Yeah, we're real weird.
03:00:08.000 We're real weird.
03:00:09.000 And if I was something that was an advanced civilization from somewhere else, hopefully a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that and does have some sort of hive mind, some sort of ability to communicate telepathically, I would be absolutely fascinated by this thing that seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development.
03:00:36.000 It's like not quite a primal animal anymore, but also not evolved past primal animal behavior.
03:00:42.000 100%.
03:00:43.000 And I'll, uh, the Chinese science fiction novel, The Three Body Problem, you might not show yourself overtly.
03:00:50.000 In the dark forest teeming with life, it's actually dangerous to show yourself.
03:00:54.000 So you subtly show up.
03:00:55.000 You show up at these, you know, nodes, hinge points of, you know, possible cataclysm at nuclear.
03:01:01.000 You show up to a specific person who might be a node of disclosure, but you'd let it sort of seep in.
03:01:06.000 You'd condition the population.
03:01:07.000 You wouldn't show up all at once.
03:01:09.000 And we are.
03:01:11.000 Objectively being conditioned to accept this.
03:01:14.000 If the fucking president is saying they live in the ocean and Tim Burchett is saying there's five hot spots in the oceans as well.
03:01:20.000 And then we see it in the New York Times in 2017.
03:01:23.000 Well, this is how disclosure takes place.
03:01:25.000 100%.
03:01:25.000 Nice and slow.
03:01:27.000 Nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted.
03:01:31.000 Totally.
03:01:32.000 Yeah.
03:01:32.000 And there's no clear ontological shock moment.
03:01:35.000 It's not the fucking devil's tower, UFO lands.
03:01:41.000 It's not that.
03:01:42.000 No.
03:01:42.000 No.
03:01:42.000 It's nice and slow.
03:01:44.000 It's what's happening now.
03:01:45.000 It's happening.
03:01:46.000 And that's why, because there are people that get really frustrated, and I understand it because there's so much sclerotic bureaucracy on the Hill, and these whistleblowers need way more protections.
03:01:56.000 I think we need targeted immunity for certain people who can say a lot more, who are good faith actors coming out.
03:02:01.000 There are probably a lot of people who did really bad shit that we don't want immunity for.
03:02:06.000 But ultimately, I have these conversations, and it's so frustrating.
03:02:11.000 It's taking so long, but it is moving.
03:02:14.000 If you look at 10 years ago, vis a vis today, 2016, before that 2017 article, To today, it's wild.
03:02:21.000 Totally different landscape.
03:02:22.000 Totally different landscape.
03:02:24.000 Yeah.
03:02:24.000 Yeah.
03:02:25.000 If you talked about it back then, you were a buffoon.
03:02:28.000 And now you're on the right side of history.
03:02:30.000 There you go.
03:02:30.000 So you, Joe, are the premier scientist because you were into all this stuff way back then.
03:02:37.000 That guy was into it first.
03:02:39.000 Art Bell.
03:02:39.000 Art Bell.
03:02:40.000 Legend.
03:02:41.000 The OG.
03:02:41.000 Inspiration.
03:02:42.000 Jesse, you're the fucking man.
03:02:44.000 I appreciate you very much.
03:02:45.000 It's always great to talk to you.
03:02:46.000 Your show is amazing.
03:02:47.000 American Alchemy.
03:02:48.000 It's available on YouTube and it's incredible.
03:02:51.000 It's the best.
03:02:52.000 Love you, kid.
03:02:52.000 Thank you.
03:02:53.000 I love you too.
03:02:53.000 Thank you for being here.
03:02:54.000 All right.
03:02:55.000 Bye, everybody.