00:02:17.000I did my undergraduate degree in Bible and theology.
00:02:20.000And I was an ordained minister in the Wesleyan church and very active in church and was preached on street corners and did all that kind of thing.
00:02:30.000How did you make this transition from being a guy with a bag of acid in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert to.
00:02:38.000Well, her father, who had been a missionary now for 20 years, was the most influential person outside my family.
00:03:20.000He'd rather you just get loaded in front of the Hendrix concert?
00:03:23.000Yeah, he would have actually because he was a heavy drinker and a construction worker and he considered that to be part of the masculine experience, you know.
00:03:59.000Little people don't like being told what to do.
00:04:02.000So, you immediately, it seems like, go become a Christian.
00:04:09.000And then, how long before you are actually doing missionary work in the jungle?
00:04:13.000Well, there's a lot of training you have to do.
00:04:15.000So, first, I had to do four years of college, Bible and theology.
00:04:19.000And then, I had to do some linguistics training.
00:04:23.000And then, not a graduate degree or anything like that, just some linguistics training from the missionary organization because I wanted to be a Bible translator.
00:06:18.000I mean, I would imagine if you really want someone to be able to survive alone in the jungle, the best way to do it is to test them by making them survive alone in the jungle.
00:06:27.000So you get an actual version of the experience.
00:09:38.000But what I found out is jaguars, you know, they get up to 400 pounds and they're the third biggest cat in the world after the lion and the tiger.
00:10:08.000Well, you better have it ready because it sneaks up on you.
00:10:11.000There's another group that I worked with for quite a while several months called the Banawa, and they use poison darts and poisoned arrows.
00:10:19.000So there's this story of this guy who went out hunting and he reached a clearing in the jungle and he saw a deer come out running straight for him.
00:10:29.000And at first he was happy and he was going to kill the deer.
00:10:32.000Then he realized deers don't just come running out of the jungle towards people.
00:10:35.000And then right behind the deer came a jaguar.
00:10:38.000And the jaguar saw him, the guy, and he was bigger than the deer, so the jaguar just took off straight for him and jumped up.
00:10:46.000And the guy got his bow, his blowgun out in front of him.
00:10:50.000They're about seven or eight feet long, these big blowguns.
00:10:57.000The jaguar's back legs are tearing the meat off of his legs.
00:11:01.000And the jaguar's head just keeps snapping at his face, trying to get his face.
00:11:05.000And what saved his life was the jaguar.
00:11:08.000Jumped off to go around the back and try to get him from the back, but he had a poisoned arrow and he stabbed the jaguar with it, and that hurts.
00:11:15.000The jaguar started to run off, and then he shot it with a poisoned arrow.
00:11:20.000But he passed out, and his family found him a couple of days later with his legs just infected and torn to pieces, but he survived.
00:11:33.000And so, these Pitahad would they go hunt the jaguars?
00:11:37.000If they saw that it was a danger, if a woman went out, And a jaguar or a mountain lion scared her, the men would go out to kill it.
00:13:08.000I don't know where they learn how to do it because they never do it except if they want to trade the meat with Brazilian boats who come up.
00:13:14.000But among themselves, they don't preserve any meat.
00:13:16.000You know, I was talking to a guy one time and, you know, why don't you preserve your meat?
00:13:21.000And he says, oh, I preserve it in the belly of my brother.
00:13:40.000I mean, they live on this river, the My Sea River, and they're the only humans that live along the river for almost 300 miles of the curvy river.
00:13:50.000And it's a relatively large river by U.S. standards.
00:13:53.000In Brazil, it doesn't even make many of the maps, but it's a couple of hundred yards across.
00:14:07.000In recent years, that's changed because the Brazilian government has allowed the construction of dams across various rivers, not their river, but they affect the water level so much that it's taken all the fish, most of the fish out of their river.
00:14:23.000And this has led to conflict with Brazilians who live not too far away and they've killed a few people stealing food from their farms and things.
00:15:07.000I never had one for the first 20 years I was working with them, but I eventually got a generator and they could see what electricity was.
00:15:15.000And I said, so that's where they get the lights.
00:15:17.000But they don't understand it, and it's for the first time in their history, and they've been living there as far as I can tell for almost 300 years on this one river.
00:15:28.000For the first time in their history, they can't be self-sufficient in protein.
00:15:45.000But they didn't, when it first went into operation, then it flooded the entire lots of farmland, lots of settlements and things up on the Madera.
00:15:54.000But what was shocking was that way downriver from the dam, it affected the water levels so much that when their river, the My Sea, goes to its lowest point in the dry season, there's still only a few places where you can see the bottom of the river.
00:16:15.000Most of the places, even when it's at its lowest, you Can't see the bottom of the river.
00:16:19.000But in the last couple of years, it's gotten so low you can walk across.
00:16:49.000Some people are moving out of their normal area to other areas to try to, you know, back on bigger rivers.
00:16:56.000But then that means they're surrounded by Brazilians and they're no longer leading the life that they used to lead.
00:17:04.000So when they move into these civilization areas, are they integrating or are they trying to, like, stay as a tribe removed from urban society?
00:18:07.000Well, we were in our training, and the missionary organization, the Wycliffe Bible Translators, offered us three areas.
00:18:14.000They said you can go to New Guinea, we need people in New Guinea.
00:18:17.000You can go to Mexico, or you can go to Brazil.
00:18:20.000And in Brazil, There's this tribe called the Piedaha that we've had two teams assigned to, and nobody's been able to figure out the language because it's not related to any other known living language.
00:18:31.000And so they said, if you're up for that challenge and we know you did well in linguistics, we'd be happy to have you take that group.
00:18:37.000So I thought, well, sure, I'm up for a challenge, so we took that.
00:20:14.000They wrote a few descriptive things about the language and about the people, and those things still fit them today.
00:20:21.000And then in 1821, a German explorer went there and he took a long list of words, which was amazing because he didn't have linguistics or anything like that, and his list of words is pretty good.
00:20:36.000And then in 1920, another German who naturalized Brazilian, the founder of Brazilian anthropology, went there and took A much larger word list, and that one is very good.
00:26:50.000In fact, after a few years, I went to San Diego and I came down with malaria.
00:26:55.000And in University Hospital San Diego, they were thrilled because I was the only person that ever seen with all three strains of South American malaria at the same time.
00:27:04.000Did you have a relapse of malaria or was that because I have a friend who got malaria in the Congo and it came back.
00:27:13.000It can come back, and I've had relapses, but it's been a long time now that I haven't had relapses.
00:27:18.000I've taken so much medicine that supposedly it won't come back anymore, but I can never give blood because it's always in my blood.
00:28:27.000And so we were leaving the village to find help because my wife and daughter were dying of malaria at this time where she got down to 76 pounds, and my daughter lost.
00:29:01.000And he just stayed there in the jungle and let my family take off in his boat.
00:29:06.000And, I didn't know where we were, but I was thinking, you know, I've read all these books about missionaries and now I'm having a missionary experience.
00:32:29.000And now that's got recursion because Bill spoke is a sentence inside John said that.
00:32:36.000And so Chomsky claimed, and in my opinion, without doing a lot of homework on this, I mean, he just was basing it on languages that he happened to know, which aren't many, that all languages were built on this.
00:32:50.000And he had principles built into his theory that required this.
00:32:54.000So when I came along and said they don't have it, and now I know there are other languages that don't have it, this was like saying you're wrong.
00:33:05.000And for me, a relative nobody, to tell the most famous linguist in history, somebody that Chomsky was called by the New York Times the most important intellectual alive, to tell him that he's wrong, a lot of people found that very weird.
00:33:40.000That is one of the grossest things about intellectuals this gatekeeping of information and this appeal to authority that they're the only person who could possibly know.
00:33:49.000Especially when you're talking about languages.
00:34:09.000My good friend Adam Greentree, he's from Australia and he was running a mine there for a while and worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and really learned a lot about their cultures.
00:34:38.000The bit of field work that has been done there are some really good Australian linguists trying to figure out these things.
00:34:44.000But the fieldwork that has been done has found properties that aren't like anything else we know about.
00:34:49.000So languages can vary so much that it's really premature, in my opinion, to be writing laws that languages are supposed to follow, all 8,000 of these languages.
00:35:01.000Well, all you'd have to do is say, as far as we've observed, and then you're okay.
00:35:06.000But as soon as you say it has to have this, and if someone says actually a language that doesn't have this, and then there's a controversy, you're a bad guy for pointing this out, and you're, you know.
00:35:18.000Output transcript Out and you're, you know.
00:35:20.000Well, I had one of Chomsky's followers who was Brazilian write to the Brazilian Indian Agency, which is where I get my authorization to visit these tribes, and say, this Dan Everett guy, he's a racist.
00:35:48.000But it's the thing, if Chomsky says that all languages have X and I say here's a language that doesn't have X, then either A, Chomsky's wrong or B, these aren't humans.
00:35:59.000And so the only person who would claim they're not humans is a racist.
00:36:30.000But it's just so crazy to think that if it doesn't have this one characteristic of language that you're calling them primates, it's not a value judgment.
00:36:39.000You're saying it's a different kind of language, and this is fascinating.
00:36:54.000And I thought that was kind of a questionable statement since, you know, I've read a lot on Homo erectus, wrote a book about it, and they don't, all their accomplishments, they had to have pretty advanced language to account for the fact that the ocean was never a barrier for them.
00:37:14.000And so I said that Homo erectus had language, and I think the evidence supports that, but they don't have the kind of language Chomsky says necessarily.
00:37:22.000And so an archaeologist at the University of Liverpool wrote me and he says, My specialty is Homo erectus, and I think you're right.
00:37:33.000And then after we wrote the paper, he discovered last year the oldest wooden structure known in all of human history, a 500,000 year old structure built by Homo erectus in Zambia.
00:37:45.000And he showed that it has interlocking pieces and parts that nobody ever expected Homo erectus to be able to do.
00:37:55.000And their brains weren't that much smaller than ours.
00:37:57.000You know, the average size of a modern human's brain is about 1200 cc's for men and about 950 to 1100 cc's for women.
00:38:06.000And since we know that men aren't more intelligent than women, the size of the brain can't be what's determining that.
00:38:13.000Homo erectus had brains of 950 to 1,000 cc's, you know, cubic centimeters.
00:38:19.000You measure that by taking the skull and filling it full of sand and seeing how much sand fits in there.
00:38:25.000So, they were able to make these complex structures and they were able to make boats and they were able to do all these things.
00:38:34.000Yeah, that's what Larry Barham from the University of Liverpool discovered.
00:38:37.000This structure, you see the cross piece.
00:38:41.000And he recently gave a talk to a world association of archaeologists to get their judgment on what this could be.
00:38:50.000Not archaeologists, but architects to get their professional judgment.
00:38:53.000And they were really impressed by this.
00:38:56.000They said, that's actually a pretty advanced structure for building.
00:39:25.000There's an archaeologist in Australia, Bednarick is his name, and he showed by – he did experiments and they're not exact because you can't find humans today that don't have any language, normal humans.
00:39:41.000But he got humans from different languages who couldn't communicate with each other that well to see if they could build a boat.
00:39:49.000And then another linguist wrote a paper based on some of this called How Much Language Does It Take to Build a Boat?
00:39:55.000And it turns out you've got to have language to build a boat.
00:39:59.000And so if they were building these boats that could carry water and could carry as many as 20 people, because you've got to have enough to.
00:40:05.000If you find a colony of Homo erectus on an island that was always an island, it was never connected by land.
00:40:12.000There had to be more than one person that washed up there on some vegetation.
00:41:09.000So, I started getting hate mail, and then the article came out when I first proposed this.
00:41:17.000In the major journal of anthropology, Current Anthropology.
00:41:20.000I was in Germany at the time at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, and right down the hall from me was Svante Pebo, who just won the Nobel Prize for decoding the genome of Neanderthals.
00:41:33.000And there was a reporter, a German reporter from Der Spiegel, to talk to him.
00:41:40.000And she found out about my article, so she walked down the hall after she interviewed him and interviewed me.
00:41:45.000And this came out, and it started to get picked up in the press.
00:41:48.000In a lot of places, and so the New Yorker did a big profile.
00:41:52.000But then the reaction came, and it wasn't what I expected.
00:41:57.000I expected that if you make a proposal, other scientists, if they're skeptical, which they have every right to be, are going to propose experiments to test what you're saying.
00:42:06.000And they're going to say, well, if they don't have recursion, you should find this, and you should not find that, and you should get this, and this, and this.
00:42:12.000And I tried to anticipate that, but that's the kind of objection I expected.
00:42:16.000But instead, they said, I'm a liar, I'm trying to get publicity.
00:42:58.000It's so weird that the intellectuals, the people who are literally professional thinkers, would fall into these common human traps of ego.
00:43:08.000Well, it was a mind blowing, mind expanding experience for me to see that intellectuals that I otherwise admired as deep thinkers about their subject would not think otherwise.
00:43:24.000Did they ever engage you on the actual information?
00:43:30.000Yeah, I had people from MIT, Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences, from Stanford, Department of Psychology, from Columbia University came down at separate times to run experiments, and they were well designed experiments to test what I said.
00:43:47.000And they all came away saying, you know, it looks like Dan's right.
00:43:59.000Like the people that are negative about this and the people that are calling you a racist and all this saying you're trying to get attention, what are they saying about these results?
00:44:07.000They don't refer to them directly, but if asked, they often say that these people don't like Chomsky.
00:44:17.000All of those individual scientists that are running these studies for you don't like Chomsky and that's why they have these skewed results?
00:45:37.000on the unvaccinated people and very just misinformed, just completely misinformed about whether it was natural immunity or there was other medications that you could use to treat COVID-19 or even the efficacy of the vaccine.
00:48:05.000He's a brilliant guy and essentially, I mean, especially rather, was really brilliant when he was young.
00:48:11.000It's just so sad when you see someone like that just behaving with ego because he was the expert.
00:48:18.000He was the foremost linguist on planet Earth.
00:48:21.000When the New York Times is saying things like you're the most important intellectual alive and you have people hanging off every word as though it comes from.
00:48:32.000I assume that it affects your ego to some degree.
00:48:36.000Most people, especially back then when there's no internet to check you, you know, you can get a really distorted perception of how you stand.
00:49:17.000Yeah, well, I've had so many exchanges in journals and magazines and things with his followers over the years and with him that I go give a talk somewhere and people say, I hope you're ready because there's a lot of skeptic.
00:49:35.000A lot of skeptics in this audience, and I say, I don't think they're going to ask me any new questions.
00:49:40.000I've done this so much now that they're going to ask me.
00:49:42.000I said, I'll be surprised if anybody asks me a question that I haven't heard from Chomsky.
00:49:48.000And when you have these conversations with Chomsky and you lay out how the Pitaha use their language and how it works, what was his reaction to that?
00:50:00.000Well, the first time I talked to him about it, he had not made this claim about recursion.
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00:55:30.000Like you see, maybe there's another Indian hunting, you know, from a different tribe hunting in your jungle because there are some that are close enough to be hunting in the same area.
00:55:39.000You see them, but you don't see them well.
01:01:10.000And so his head's down a bit with the tump line, and the basket probably weighs 60 pounds.
01:01:17.000And suddenly a jaguar jumps out of the tree right on his back, but it got the basket and not him, and it pulled the basket off his head, and he shot it with an arrow.
01:02:12.000I came back in after six months, and my buddy, my main language teacher, his name was, when I left, it was Kohoi Beihai, which means blood eater.
01:02:24.000And when I got back, I said, and the nickname is Koheiko.
01:08:00.000They had me figured out before I had them figured out.
01:08:03.000And they can predict my behavior better than I can predict theirs even today.
01:08:07.000And so they would come to me and they would say this.
01:08:11.000They say, Dan, you keep telling us about Jesus, but it seems that only Americans believe in Jesus because we don't know any Brazilians that we've ever met that believe in Jesus.
01:08:20.000And so this seems like an American thing, but we're not Americans.
01:08:23.000And then they would say, Where did you get your evidence?
01:08:26.000And I began to think, These are good questions.
01:08:29.000I can't just throw these questions off.
01:08:50.000And so I started considering the alternative, and I realized I was an atheist back when I met my first wife in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert.
01:09:00.000I was an atheist, and then I became a Christian, and then I thought maybe I was right to begin with.
01:09:07.000And so eventually I told them, I said, I don't believe this stuff anymore either.
01:09:12.000And they started laughing, all the guys.
01:09:15.000They said, Oh, now you're like us, you know.
01:09:19.000But then they told me one time, they said, You know, from what we understand, Christians don't drink and they don't sleep with other women.
01:09:26.000And, you know, we like to do those things.
01:09:44.000One of the most important things was that.
01:09:46.000Having spent so many years as a Christian and knowing Christians both in the U.S. and missionaries who are the cream of the crop, supposedly, I didn't know anyone in the Christian faith who was as well adjusted, who could cope with life as well, who was as satisfied and content with their lives as the Pitaha.
01:10:03.000They were like the ultimate Zen masters and the ultimate, you know, if you thought, what is Jesus supposed to do for your life?
01:10:30.000He said, Well, I would spend time, I would see how long they smile and laugh every day and compare it to others and how much time they spend laughing and smiling.
01:10:40.000And I'll guarantee you, he said, I've never seen a Pitaha here who's not smiling or laughing frequently.
01:10:50.000And it was also just the fact that I began to realize that the scientific principles that I've been learning and that I'm applying in linguistics almost have to be suspended.
01:11:14.000And I'm not going to deny anybody's experience.
01:11:16.000If you tell me you had inoperable cancer, but now you don't, something happened, and I can't tell you what it was.
01:11:25.000But at the same time, there's no statistical relevance to that.
01:11:31.000It's also the case that even when I was in Bible school, One of my teachers said, I wonder why healers, faith healers, never start with amputees.
01:11:42.000They always start with diseases you can't see, like cancer, and explain how it went away.
01:11:47.000But they said also in the Bible, and the Bible itself says this, Jesus not only healed people, he raised them from the dead.
01:11:56.000So if somebody claims to be a healer in the same vein as Jesus, I'd like to see them start at cemeteries and start raising people from the dead.
01:12:04.000We're not seeing that, and we don't see amputees healed.
01:12:08.000We see things that are sort of subjective experiences.
01:12:10.000So that, and I'm not claiming that nobody has a right to believe what they believe or that I'm right about all these things, but these are the reasons, this is part of the reasoning process that went through my mind.
01:12:20.000And I thought, yeah, I just can't do this anymore.
01:12:26.000I cannot tell these people to believe something that they have reasonable objections against and I don't have reasonable answers for.
01:12:34.000So to me, they made more sense than I did.
01:12:37.000Well, there's so many of these ancient religions that have very similar stories to the Jesus story.
01:12:49.000And I'm of the opinion that what you're getting with all of these religious texts is there were some events and there's some sort of a documentation of these events, but it's very hard to figure out what exactly happened.
01:14:29.000You know, when I was a little boy, you know, my mother died when I was very young, but when I was a little boy, we would drive up from Imperial Valley, California to San Diego, and you got to go through the mountains, and there's this line of white stones that I noticed near the top of the mountains.
01:14:43.000And I said, you know, what caused that?
01:14:53.000And so this is the, some of this stuff gets started this way, and it becomes truth.
01:14:58.000Well, I mean, it's certainly when you're talking about a time thousands of years ago where just the ability to read was very limited, and then you're translating things from languages that we don't even speak anymore.
01:15:12.000It gets real squirrely when you try to figure out what these events actually were that they were documenting.
01:15:20.000It's having a belief system, I think there's a lot of value to it.
01:15:24.000I think it gives you a moral scaffolding, gives you structure in your life, and that alone is like super beneficial.
01:15:31.000And the people that I know that are like true Christians, really follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, they're some of the nicest people I've ever met.
01:16:21.000And she said, Well, he wants him to confess it.
01:16:23.000Well, there's always that kind of answer.
01:16:25.000You can always give that kind of answer.
01:16:27.000But we, you know, you don't have to focus on religion.
01:16:29.000You can even go to paleoanthropology and you can look at, are there 20.
01:16:35.000Species of Homo that used to exist in the past or more?
01:16:38.000Or were there just three, Erectus, Neanderthal, and Sapiens?
01:16:43.000And what does it mean to be a species?
01:16:45.000And how can we really prove some of that stuff?
01:16:48.000Before the work of Svante Pebo and decoding the DNA, the genome of ancient creatures doing this thing that people thought was impossible, that was speculation.
01:17:04.000And there were a lot of controversies.
01:17:06.000And now, We can look at the genetic record and we can look at the genome, but that still doesn't tell us everything.
01:17:13.000So, a lot of straight history and a lot of paleo anthropology and paleoarchaeology, all of these things always involve, as any theory does, speculation.
01:17:25.000You're guessing and then trying to test your guess.
01:17:29.000And some things are easier to test than other things.
01:17:32.000And so, science is a community of people who believe they can work towards the truth, but the only way to do that.
01:17:40.000It is to have good guesses and know how to test them and be willing to admit that you're wrong and then move on to the next best guess.
01:18:28.000The Bible talks about all sorts of things that we don't agree with today, but we try to interpret it in such a way that we can live with it.
01:19:00.000He has this story about Noah's ark about how Noah's family had to be so infested with germs so they could survive the flood, you know.
01:19:11.000When you stop and think about it, I mean, like, you know, the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat, and then all these creatures had to boogie on down to Australia almost immediately.
01:19:24.000You get these stories, and people don't want to talk about those things.
01:19:26.000They say, Well, I don't know how God did it.
01:19:28.000I think there was an event, and I think this version of it, this doctrine that you're supposed to adhere to, is woefully uninformed about the actual real facts of the event.
01:19:44.000I don't think anybody could possibly know, but I think when you have the Epic of Gilgamesh, which mirrors the story of Noah's Ark, which mirrors the story of other religions that have similar flood myths.
01:21:18.000And I got the job through my Christian missionary father-in-law who knew this guy.
01:21:23.000And I saw that happening time and time again.
01:21:28.000So very often, unfortunately, people who claim to be religious and Follow the commandments of Jesus, which are much more difficult to follow than the commandments of the Old Testament because they affect your thoughts and not just your overt action.
01:21:44.000When you don't see consistency, the answer could be, well, we're just humans.
01:21:51.000But why doesn't the Holy Spirit that you say you believe in make a bigger difference in your life than he does in Joe Schmo down the street, who doesn't claim anything and he's leading a more moral life than you are?
01:22:02.000Especially if you're robbing laborers.
01:22:15.000And there's been a lot of evidence that subsistence lifestyles are some of the most compatible lifestyles in terms of people's happiness and peace and having a sense of meaning.
01:22:33.000Your life is wrapped around the gathering of food and community and spending time together.
01:22:38.000They're the happiest people in the world.
01:23:41.000Well, the documentary that was made about the Piedaha by the Smithsonian and a couple of other institutions is called The Grammar of Happiness.
01:23:49.000Because the film crew that went with me was very small, like three people, but they were deeply impressed by what they saw and the level of happiness.
01:23:59.000And all the psychologists that I've taken and linguists have also been very impressed by the level.
01:24:04.000If they get past the heat and they get past the confrontation with your body, and you know, the Pinaha don't have outhouses.
01:24:13.000They don't have, you know, I mean, if somebody needs to take a dump, they walk off 10 feet into the bush and do it.
01:24:18.000And so we have to have do they have toilet paper?
01:25:06.000I have people who, you know, people bitten by snakes, cut.
01:25:10.000I had people who split their hand almost in two with a machete, run arrows all the way up their arm, step on sticks that go all the way through their foot.
01:25:19.000I mean, these are people who are naked running through the jungle and they get scratches and, you know, if you get bitten by a snake that's hemotoxic, like a.
01:25:36.000When you get bit by one of those things, even if you survive, a lot of the flesh is going to come off whatever they bit.
01:25:43.000So you see people with one leg normal and one leg that looks like bone because it's basically bone with a little bit of muscle covered in skin because the flesh all fell off after the snake bite.
01:25:53.000So they know what it is to suffer and they're tough.
01:25:58.000You know, if you get a toothache, how do you fix it?
01:26:01.000Well, If I'm there, I have some things that can help with the pain, or I can pull the tooth.
01:26:12.000So they learn, you know, I was talking to a woman one time, you know, really for, you know, Pinaha, looking very feminine looking woman, and she gets bit by a wasp on the face while I'm talking to her.
01:26:23.000And she pulls the stinger out, and she doesn't, it doesn't stop her conversation.
01:26:27.000And I've been stung by those wasps, and I know they hurt like hell.
01:28:56.000Well, I think they're probably correct.
01:28:58.000It is interesting how those people are happier.
01:29:01.000Like, we've done something to ourselves by forcing ourselves into cities and jobs and constant stress and bills and taxes and all these external things that we've attached to our lives that we think are 100% necessary.
01:33:28.000I can take in tobacco, but they're not going to get addicted to it.
01:33:31.000They're not going to, you know, even when they roll cigarettes, they like them, but they only have it like once or twice a year, so you don't have to worry about it.
01:33:40.000You know, if they had it all the time, they would have serious issues.
01:33:43.000So they've only developed addictions based on what they've been introduced from the Western world.
01:35:39.000Also, if you're a Christian missionary and you're getting your income from being a missionary, and then you tell people, Oh, I don't believe anymore, then you're unemployed.
01:35:46.000Did you have any other issues in the marriage other than that?
01:35:50.000Yeah, it wasn't that, wasn't the only issue.
01:35:52.000But she tracked up all the issues we had to what she perceived as my declining faith.
01:35:58.000Oh, because, of course, you know, I loved rock music before we met.
01:36:05.000We met at a Jimi Hendrix concert, and I went many years without listening to rock music, and I love rock music.
01:36:11.000And so I finally started listening to it again, and She got upset.
01:36:16.000That was a sign that I was starting to fade away in my faith.
01:37:05.000It's like another expression that comes to mind when you're, if you see somebody who says they're a believer and now they start doing things you don't think they should do, there are two reactions you could have.
01:37:19.000And everybody wants to give justice and get mercy for their beliefs and for their transgressions.
01:37:27.000And so I was giving myself mercy and my wife was giving me justice.
01:37:32.000But in the end, I realized I'm not going to be bound by these rules anymore.
01:37:37.000I'm just going to live my life according to my best lights and according to the best decisions.
01:37:41.000And I'm not going to let this book tell me anymore.
01:37:43.000The ironic thing is, you know, I graduated number one in my class at a Bible school, so I know the Bible really well.
01:37:49.000And when people try to reconvert me, I've had many Christians try to reconvert me.
01:37:52.000I said, That's not going to work, you know, because I know the Bible probably better than you do.
01:37:57.000So you're not going to give me a verse I don't know.
01:37:59.000I said, I'm not telling you you're wrong.
01:38:01.000And I'm not even telling you your interpretation is wrong.
01:38:04.000I'm just saying it doesn't work for me and I can't pretend that it does.
01:38:07.000It's got to be weird to have your beliefs confronted by a group of people where as you're learning their language, you're realizing that this moral framework and the scaffolding that you've only attributed to Christianity and you think that it's just Christianity and religion that makes people good people.
01:38:30.000And then here's people that don't have any God.
01:38:33.000Yeah, so like, you know, you're in a big storm.
01:38:36.000The Amazon has storms in the rainy season.
01:38:38.000So somebody's house blows over because their houses, they're hunter-gatherers and they're semi-nomadics, so they don't build the best houses.
01:38:45.000So it's pouring rain and somebody's house blows over and they're just stuck there in the rain.
01:38:52.000They start laughing like it's the funniest thing that ever happened.
01:38:55.000And they will go off into other people's huts and sleep on the ground or get near the fire or they might come to my house, that's very common, and want to sleep with me.
01:39:03.000And then the next day they'll rebuild it.
01:39:04.000There's nothing except for fear of immediate threat from the outside or from animals that gets them to lose their cool.
01:39:12.000And when they do lose their cool, it's not really losing their cool.
01:40:48.000So do they have punishment for crimes?
01:40:50.000They have punishment if it threatens the survival of the village.
01:40:55.000So there was one young man, a teenager, and I talk about him in both my book, Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes, and in the new one that's coming out next year, Born of the River, who was paid in alcohol and a new shotgun to kill somebody who was living up the river, who wasn't a Pitaha, living on the same river.
01:42:40.000But you go on a boat with these guys, and these are some tough-looking guys.
01:42:44.000They've got scars on their faces and scars on their these are knife fights.
01:42:48.000These are guys who, you know, like I got really mad at somebody once, and I mentioned to another Brazilian, I said, you know, if he keeps doing that, I'm going to punch him in the face.
01:42:59.000And he says, if you punch him in the face, he's going to kill you.
01:43:02.000You know, he'll either get a knife or he'll get a gun.
01:43:04.000So if you decide you're going to hit somebody, you better be armed.
01:43:07.000Because they're going to come at you with whatever weapon they can get their hands on.
01:43:09.000You really thought that you were just going to be able to punch them?
01:43:13.000I was just talking, but I, you know, obviously didn't have a lot of, you know, my dad liked to fight a lot, but, you know, he liked to.
01:43:20.000Were you guys drunk at the time when you were doing this?
01:44:25.000What did you think when you were just looking at the framework that they live by that these people don't have a God, that they don't have someone watching over, making sure they're doing the right thing all the time, or this punishment of being burning forever in hell?
01:44:54.000I sit outside on the riverbank with them, and they point out satellites going overhead because they know the sky so well that they say, What's that?
01:45:04.000And I look, and it's like, Must be a satellite.
01:45:07.000I said, It's like a radio thing because they have radio.
01:45:09.000I mean, they don't have radios, but I have radio.
01:45:11.000And they said, Well, who put that up there?
01:45:19.000And they said, You know how to do that?
01:45:21.000I said, No, I don't know how to do that.
01:45:22.000So they said, Some other Americans know how to do that.
01:45:24.000I said, Yeah, I don't know how to do that.
01:45:27.000But they're very conscious of their environment.
01:45:31.000And they're very curious and they want to learn these things.
01:45:34.000But if I told them that God put it up there, they wouldn't pay attention.
01:45:37.000Now, they have these spirits that we talked about earlier where they believe a thing.
01:45:45.000Embodies a spirit like it could be like a jaguar embodies a spirit, yes.
01:45:50.000So, uh, they have some spirits, so that's a spirit we haven't talked about yet.
01:45:54.000So they have this spirit, igagai, which they believe, you know, so they might see a man and then they might see a jaguar and then they say, that must be the same thing, you know, this man became a jaguar or the jaguar became a man.
01:46:07.000And this is a belief that is in fact shape shifting is not an uncommon belief in the Amazon among even Brazilians that live there.
01:46:17.000So one time I got up in the morning and everybody was yelling and pointing at the beach on the other side.
01:48:03.000I was um, and i've almost put my hand on snakes, I don't know why I'm still alive because they can, they, they, it's like I'm a special needs person.
01:48:13.000I, you know, they have to watch out for me when I'm in the jungle because it takes a lot of skill to be able to see these things.
01:48:20.000Just like when I take them to the city for like medical work, they get totally lost.
01:48:25.000They can't, they, it's hard for them to understand how I can find my way around a city because the cues that I'm using are totally different than the things they're used to.
01:48:35.000So, this Igagai, this thing that they said they saw, they could have just been seeing an animal and saying it was Igagai and agreeing that it was a spirit.
01:48:54.000And I definitely took that into consideration.
01:48:55.000In fact, for the first several years, before I had really investigated the different shape shifting of Igagai, I thought that's all it could mean.
01:49:03.000They were seeing something and I couldn't see it.
01:49:39.000But they know not only that it's moving, but exactly what caused it.
01:49:43.000I can see bubbles coming out of the water from the river.
01:49:47.000They're just bubbles to me, but to them, they represent either a rock underneath or an alligator or some other creature that's under the water.
01:49:57.000And they can tell by the bubbles, but I can't.
01:50:00.000So they've learned to interpret their world in a way that I can't.
01:50:06.000So it's not that they don't have senses that you don't have, but that they have pattern recognition.
01:50:16.000But again, you would need to do some sort of psychological testing in much more controlled conditions than I've ever been able to do to sort those things out.
01:50:28.000But my view now is that they simply have the ability to recognize and perceive things that they've grown up with that I miss entirely.
01:50:39.000And this spirit thing, does it always embody a creature that's common, like a jaguar, or does it.
01:53:13.000But all he had to do was get the river where the river is and then mentally compute where we're at.
01:53:19.000So many experiments have shown that people who don't have right and left, front and back, but use absolute directions like upriver, downriver, to the jungle, away from the jungle, are better at finding their way in new places than we are.
01:53:35.000You know, I can tell you turn north, and you might know what I'm talking about.
01:53:38.000For the average person, I say, turn north.
01:53:41.000If your life depends on it, you don't know which way to turn.
01:54:50.000There was a time before I helped the Indian agency demarcate their reservation so it could be controlled, that boats came up and down all the time when the Brazil nuts were falling and when there were other jungle products like latex and sorva, which is a product used to make chewing gum and all sorts of other things, and Copaiba, which is used for suntan lotion.
01:55:12.000So the Brazilian boats would come up and trade for all these things, and they always traded with whiskey because that's the, I mean, sugarcane rum, cachaça, which is the cheapest thing.
01:59:15.000In the early years, I did think about it.
01:59:17.000I thought about not pursuing any kind of graduate degree, not worrying about ever coming back to the U.S. or, and I was really loving it there.
01:59:25.000But then I realized my kids wanted a wider experience.
01:59:30.000And they, it would, I didn't have the right to deprive them of it.
01:59:32.000So you think if you were single, you would have just integrated?
02:00:48.000There's a couple of different kinds of wood that they use, but there's one that is a bright red wood and it's called Pidanya food, Piranha food, because it grows near the edge of the river and it drops flowers off the tree into the river, and the Piranhas love to eat those flowers.
02:01:10.000So if you see a lot of those flowers in the water, probably not good to swim there.
02:01:15.000But they take a section of the bark, a big section, you know, it might be like four inches by.
02:01:21.000Four inches or six inches, and it's just a hard piece, maybe eight feet long.
02:01:29.000And they bring that back and they have a special tool and it could be wood or bone or if they have a machete they use that and they just start shaping it until finally they get a bow that's probably two inches wide and an inch and a half thick and it's taller than they are.
02:01:50.000And then they get the bark from a tree, a certain kind of tree, and they give that and they get it off in strands.
02:01:59.000And so a man, a brother or a father or a husband will give it to their closest woman relative and she takes those strands and she makes a bowstring.
02:02:10.000So the bow represents man and woman working together.
02:02:13.000A man can make the wood, a woman makes the string.
02:02:16.000Then they get the arrows, a man gets the feathers, a man gets the shaft, the woman makes the strings that tie everything on.
02:06:20.000So if they bring me a fish, they'll give me a fish.
02:06:24.000They like to trade fish for canned meat because canned meat keeps.
02:06:28.000But I like fish cheeks, but my wife hated the fish heads.
02:06:33.000She didn't want the fish heads around.
02:06:35.000So they would be happy to keep the fish heads and they just make a big stew of fish heads and they eat the brains and the eyeballs and everything.
02:08:52.000I used to come out of the village and go straight to one of those.
02:08:56.000I've been out of the village for six months, and I was really hungry, and I was coming out on my motorcycle, and the first one I saw, I pulled over, and I ate until I could barely move.
02:09:04.000Did you eat monkey when you were in the jungle?
02:09:17.000And when I was doing my field experience in southern Mexico, in Chiapas, I spent some time with the Celtales, the Celtal people, descendants of the Mayas.
02:09:26.000And, you know, I eat this stuff they chew up and spit out and let ferment.
02:09:53.000Then that night I was up with things coming out of both ends all night long, and the next morning my blood pressure was 60 over 40 and I had to be flown out.
02:10:07.000They had to get me on a mule and get me out to the nearest airstrip and out, and.
02:11:27.000Yeah, I put it in a pressure cooker over a fire.
02:11:29.000I take in a pressure cooker, you know, not an electric pressure cooker, obviously.
02:11:33.000One of these pressure cookers you can set on top of the fire.
02:11:35.000And after I pressure it, it's falling off the bone, and I take the meat off, and I throw it in a bowl, and I put some manioc meal on top of that, and then I cover it in Tabasco, and it's great.
02:11:46.000It's very filling, and it tastes really good.
02:11:52.000When you see the monkey, And you put the little monkey body inside the pressure cooker, and it looks like a baby, it doesn't look too good.
02:12:00.000But once you open up the pressure cooker and it's all cooked, and the bones are separated from the meat, and then it's just meat floating in there, you know.
02:12:08.000And when you're out in the jungle and you've been out there long enough, just about any kind of meat sounds pretty good.
02:12:14.000I worked with a group called the Wadi.
02:12:17.000I actually wrote a 540 page grammar of their language, co wrote it.
02:12:22.000And they were cannibals up until 1962.
02:12:26.000And They had two, they had endocannibalism and exocannibalism.
02:12:31.000Exocannibalism was eating their enemies, and endocannibalism was eating their people.
02:12:37.000And so if you die in the village at that time, up until 1962, they keep your body, they call all the relatives, your body might sit there in the Amazon sun for three days, and your relatives come from all over, and then they cook you over a grill.
02:12:55.000And slowly, they roast the body, and then they cut it into chunks and they eat them with like little toothpicks and they eat it till everything's gone.
02:13:05.000They eat the bones, they eat the brains, they eat everything.
02:13:10.000And the purpose, as best I've been able to figure out, anthropologists have tried to answer this, so my answer might not be theirs, but it's based on interviews with the people, is to give your relatives eternal life.
02:13:22.000Because they live in you, and you're going to live in somebody else, so you just continue living.
02:13:27.000But exo-cannibalism, I kill a guy in warfare, I'm going to eat him like an animal.
02:13:31.000I just chop him up and grill him and eat it and throw the bones off into the forest.
02:14:23.000And I've talked to some of the older men who have eaten their dead, and they say, oh, the babies taste really good, but you can't say that.
02:15:09.000So you realize cultural differences aren't that superficial.
02:15:14.000Well, it's also probably meat is probably extremely valuable to them.
02:15:18.000And they just probably think, look, there's no reason for this to go to waste when it could sustain us.
02:15:22.000It would be very interesting to go back in time and see how the customs started.
02:15:27.000They could have started out of hunger, and then you dress it up with some religious beliefs, or the religious beliefs could have come first and you started doing it.
02:15:35.000But they do have oral histories about it, but the oral histories never say we were short of meat, so we ate Joe, we ate our buddy.
02:15:47.000But they do say, We want to help them live in us and we will live in somebody else.
02:16:20.000None that I know of, but there are still some uncontacted tribes, and there are still tribes that behave one way when foreigners are around and another way when they're not.
02:16:31.000I have a friend, she died last year, but she was a missionary among those people from the 50s.
02:16:40.000And she told me, although some anthropologists deny this, but I think she knows them better than any anthropologist ever been there, that she said, I think when nobody's around, they still do that.
02:16:59.000But that's been stopped and they're isolated from other groups that they used to be enemies with.
02:17:05.000But there are still some who believe the old-time religion, you know, and the old-time religion says, eat your dead, you know.
02:17:14.000So that probably, it's quite possible that it happens.
02:17:17.000But what you find is that since the 80s, most of the groups that have regular contact with the outside have undergone a very rapid process of enculturation into Brazilian society.
02:17:33.000So even among the Pita Hasnelt in the.
02:17:36.000In the decades since I was there regularly, I see pictures of them because my ex wife still lives right next to them.
02:17:43.000And she sends me short videos and pictures of them when they come up to her little wooden shack on the Trans Amazon Highway by their river.
02:17:52.000And they're dressing very differently now.
02:17:55.000And some of them are speaking some Portuguese.
02:17:58.000Not very well, but they're speaking some Portuguese.
02:18:00.000And your ex wife is still a missionary?
02:18:02.000Yeah, she's still trying to convert them.
02:19:08.000It's what attracted me to her so much, besides the fact that she was really cute.
02:19:12.000That attracted me to her a lot when we first met.
02:19:15.000Were you bummed out when she wanted a divorce because you lost your faith?
02:19:18.000Well, by that time, we weren't getting along that well because she's very anti, she's not anti science per se, but she's anti helicopter science.
02:19:31.000She feels that too many people who do studies of indigenous groups and languages come in for a short time, go out, and just speak a lot of bullshit that nobody's ever going to test.
02:20:39.000So you have to watch them very carefully and somebody might get something new or you might even give them something new that they've never seen, hoping somebody's going to ask them, what is this?
02:20:49.000So you can write it down and then test it.
02:21:35.000It means that I haven't figured out the language as well as I thought I did.
02:21:39.000And that's very humbling when you've spent so many years trying to do it.
02:21:42.000So I had to start from the ground up again.
02:21:46.000And these are all, you know, before you can learn a language, you have to murder it.
02:21:49.000And before you can carry on a conversation, you just feel like an idiot for years.
02:21:56.000And for one thing, people who go in to do a PhD's dissertation on a language like this are going to take one to two years of their life, and that's it.
02:22:08.000It takes a year to get fluent in the language.
02:22:09.000And I know many people who've written about many different Amazonian languages who can't speak a word of the language or speak very little of it.
02:22:17.000They'll tell people they speak it, but you go with them and you realize they don't speak it that well.
02:22:22.000So if you don't speak it that well, how can you ask them to distinguish subtle meaning differences?
02:22:42.000Especially if a young student is coming along and they're interested in pursuing it further and they're starting off with some faulty assumptions.
02:23:34.000So, for example, I've worked with Pinaha, and I'm asking for a certain kind of data, and they don't give me what I wanted, and I thought, This guy's not giving me what I want.
02:24:12.000The amount of commitment. that's involved in going as deep as you want with this is really crazy.
02:24:18.000Yeah, I give demonstrations and you can find some on the internet where I take a language that I know nothing about and I switch to Pinaha, which I know they know nothing about.
02:24:28.000And within 20 or 30 minutes, I'm able to explain to the audience some basic facts about how their grammar works and what their basic vocabulary, you know, a lot of basic vocabulary.
02:26:37.000You know, the National Science Foundation and the Brazilian National Science Foundation and the British equivalent of the National Science Foundation have all funded my research over the years.
02:26:48.000But the bulk of my research was funded by being a missionary.
02:26:52.000And so I had all these years because churches were supporting me.
02:28:02.000They wear it to keep from sticks getting poked in your penis.
02:28:06.000And so modesty has nothing to do with it.
02:28:10.000To the average Piedaha, a woman's breast is about as erotic as an elbow.
02:28:15.000You know, you see a woman, she's nursing her baby, and then the baby stops nursing, and she's still talking to you, and her tits hanging out, and it doesn't mean anything to her.
02:28:25.000And after a while, it doesn't mean anything to you either.
02:28:28.000And so, to get across the idea that it may be clothes that's causing this problem instead of going naked, which then eliminates the problem of lust, I mean, it's a hard concept for some churches.
02:28:42.000But churches tend to get very impatient.
02:28:44.000But then, the National Science Foundation, for example, if I say, I'm going to go study language X, and I need funding for five years, Oh no, we fund those and that's a year's funding.
02:28:54.000Yeah, but nobody who goes out for a year really learns it that well.
02:29:10.000Well, there are 8,000 languages, and there are maybe 2,000, 3,000, let's say 5,000 linguists in the whole world, and only a small percentage of them want to do this kind of work.
02:29:23.000The rest of them, most of them want to do Chomsky's kind of work, where you sit at your desk and you say, language has this property.
02:29:29.000And it must also have this property, and so the rubber's never meeting the road.
02:29:35.000You know, I mean you, if you can do your field research on database.
02:29:40.000I shouldn't say that because that's what my son does.
02:29:42.000He's also a linguist and he grew up in an Indian tribe and you know the Pitaha, and he also did a dissertation on another tribe that he learned to speak the language.
02:29:49.000But nowadays he goes through databases and comes up with statistical generalizations and it's pretty interesting.
02:29:57.000He said yeah, I don't want to do that field work anymore.
02:29:59.000That's really demanding, even though he grew up there.
02:30:02.000So, And that's the way most people are.
02:30:05.000How many more cultures that have completely different languages and completely different sets of rules and structure are out there that we're not aware of?
02:30:17.000Well, when I was back in the 80s, they used to say there's about 5,000 languages.
02:30:23.000So, 20 years later, 21 years later, we're saying, or 31 years later, we're saying there are 8,000.
02:30:32.000Languages die out at the rate of about one every two weeks.
02:30:37.000And once they die, we can never recover that information.
02:30:41.000But also, languages are being born on a regular basis because you talk like who you talk with.
02:30:48.000So why are Portuguese and Spanish separate languages?
02:30:51.000Because you've got the Eber River and you've got natural divides between in that part of the Iberian Peninsula.
02:30:58.000And so they stop talking to each other and so their speech diverges.
02:31:01.000That's how Latin became French and Romanian and Germanic became English.
02:31:06.000And so they stop talking to each other.
02:31:09.000So, as soon as people stop talking, their language evolves and they have different languages.
02:31:14.000So, British English and American English have evolved apart, and yet at the same time, we have television and movies and things that keep them sort of together.
02:31:25.000But if you don't have media and you don't have that, then eventually they're talking, they're not talking with each other at all, and they become different languages.
02:31:35.000And that's where most languages come from.
02:31:39.000There's got to be a lot of these tribes that aren't talking to each other.
02:31:42.000And how many of these tribes have been investigated?
02:31:45.000And how many people have been embedded in these?
02:31:48.000Are there tribes out there where no one has ever examined the language?
02:31:51.000No one's ever embedded themselves in their culture?
02:31:56.000There probably are over a thousand where no one's gone there, but there are a couple of thousand where no scientist has gone there to study their language or their culture.
02:33:09.000They said, you just have one word for all these things.
02:33:12.000But they're calling them by the species name.
02:33:14.000And I'm thinking, well, I told them, I said, well, there's some Americans who do know all the different names, but I'm just not one of them.
02:33:20.000But they find it hard to believe that any American could get by without that knowledge of their environment.
02:33:27.000So when that language goes, we've lost the difference.
02:33:30.000So a friend of mine did a study on how a group in the Amazon classify birds.
02:33:36.000And they don't classify them based on their anatomy like Western science.
02:33:40.000They classify them based on what they eat.
02:33:43.000And so if you know their classification, you know what all these birds eat.
02:33:47.000And you know how to deal with those birds to capture them or to follow them.
02:33:52.000And when that language is gone, all that knowledge is gone.
02:33:55.000So it's like the Library of Congress has been blown up or something when you lose a language.
02:34:03.000And why do new languages come into being?
02:34:10.000How are we to understand our species if we don't study all the different exemplars of our species?
02:34:18.000And that's the challenge, and that's what keeps the work exciting, but it also is what makes it a challenge because you tell you tell a really bright 25-year-old or 24-year-old PhD student, okay, now you have to take off to the jungle for three years or four.
02:34:36.000And they're thinking, I could get a job without doing that.
02:34:39.000You know, I don't need to go spend four years in the jungle to get a job.
02:34:42.000And, you know, professor is a pretty cushy job.
02:34:45.000It doesn't pay well, but it's also, it's not like, you know, it's not like real labor.
02:34:50.000And I told people tell me how hard professors work.
02:34:52.000I said, yeah, well, you know, it does take a lot of hours, but I'd rather do this than run a jackhammer because I ran a jackhammer.
02:34:58.000And I'll tell you, this is a lot easier than running a jackhammer.
02:35:00.000So, but you go off to the field and you spend this time.
02:35:05.000Ironically, anthropologists seem more prepared to do this than linguists.
02:35:09.000And the other ironic thing is I know, this is anecdote, I know more anthropologists who speak the language fluently than I know linguists who speak the language fluently, which I have to put down to the pernicious influence of certain theories and linguistics that makes people think they don't have to learn a language to know how it works.
02:35:29.000And I tell people when you're going off to do field work, I did write a field manual and I say, the first six months just work on learning the language, don't take many notes, you know, take notes of words and stuff.
02:35:39.000So I had a goal where I wanted to learn 10 new words a day and I kept a little spiral notebook clip in my belt buckle and I would walk around learning these things and I want to learn new words and write those down.
02:35:51.000And then I would spend the evening memorizing those words and I would try them out again the next day and I try to make sentences with them.
02:35:58.000And when people start laughing at you, you know that I didn't get that right.
02:36:01.000And sometimes they like to teach you dirty words, right?
02:36:07.000So then I, you know, you want, how do you learn the words for genitals, for example?
02:36:12.000That's kind of an embarrassing thing if you stop and think about it.
02:36:15.000So I started to ask the guy, I said, what do you call that?
02:36:18.000You know, I pointed to his dick and he said, and he calls, he, you know, he says, I'm not going to tell you, but he calls a little boy over who's naked and he shows me every part of his body.
02:36:26.000And he said, you call this, this, and this, that, and this, that.
02:36:29.000And then he says, but the names change once they start to grow hair.
02:36:35.000So penis as a boy is different from penis as a boy.
02:36:38.000A man and vagina as a girl is different from vagina as a woman.
02:36:42.000And so, you know, how do you get those words?
02:36:47.000You got to count on close friendships.
02:36:51.000Well, like I said at the beginning of this, man, you've had a fascinating life.