The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #467 - Peter Giuliano

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00:06:10.000 Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

00:06:11.000 Peter Giuliano.

00:06:12.000 Hey.

00:06:13.000 Am I saying it correctly?

00:06:14.000 Perfect.

00:06:14.000 Is here.

00:06:15.000 We're going to talk about some coffee.

00:06:16.000 We're going to get some knowledge.

00:06:18.000 You can play the music.

00:06:19.000 Joe Rogan Podcast.

00:06:20.000 Check it out.

00:06:21.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:06:23.000 Train by day.

00:06:24.000 Joe Rogan Podcast by night.

00:06:26.000 All day. 1.00

00:06:29.000 I love when people are really, really, really into shit. 1.00

00:06:34.000 And you, sir, are really, really, really into coffee. 1.00

00:06:37.000 That's true.

00:06:37.000 And what's important about people like you is that people like me who really do love coffee, but I know nothing about it and I'm not going to do all that research.

00:06:46.000 It's just not going to happen, man.

00:06:48.000 It's just too much work.

00:06:50.000 I need someone like you out there that's obsessed with coffee, that can bring me some coffee that smells like lemons.

00:06:55.000 I'm here for you.

00:06:56.000 What is this stuff that you brought?

00:06:58.000 You brought this Ethiopian blend that was warm when we got it.

00:07:01.000 Yeah.

00:07:02.000 Okay, so I brought you Ethiopian coffee because, okay, at some point, so I'm a coffee guy, right?

00:07:09.000 I've been working on coffee for years, 25 years or more.

00:07:12.000 And when you're a coffee guy, everybody asks you their coffee questions.

00:07:16.000 And the number one question that people start asking you is, what's your favorite coffee?

00:07:20.000 Everybody wants to know that.

00:07:23.000 Now, most coffee people, when they're asked that question, lie a little bit.

00:07:27.000 The way I lied was I would say, that's like asking a parent who their favorite child is.

00:07:32.000 You know what I mean?

00:07:33.000 You're not allowed. 0.99

00:07:33.000 That's ridiculous. 0.99

00:07:35.000 That's when you know you've got a coffee problem. 0.97

00:07:37.000 Right, right.

00:07:38.000 You're not allowed to do that, right.

00:07:39.000 You're not allowed to do that.

00:07:40.000 You're not allowed to play favorites, etc.

00:07:42.000 But...

00:07:43.000 Putting that lie aside, most coffee people are affectionate about coffee from Ethiopia because that's where coffee's from.

00:07:50.000 It originates in Ethiopia.

00:07:51.000 It originates in Ethiopia. 1.00

00:07:52.000 Pour some of that beautiful shit out. 1.00

00:07:53.000 It smells so good, by the way. 1.00

00:07:55.000 What is the name of this particular blend that you made?

00:07:57.000 It's called Yergeshef. 0.87

00:08:00.000 Yergeshef is the name of a town in southern Ethiopia.

00:08:04.000 And it is, in coffee, to coffee people, Yergeshev is like Mecca.

00:08:11.000 That's the spot.

00:08:11.000 Yeah, that's the spot.

00:08:11.000 It smells unbelievable.

00:08:13.000 And that's why it's so famous.

00:08:17.000 The coffee smells sort of like flowers and then like lemons, like lemon oil or something.

00:08:23.000 And that's really unique.

00:08:24.000 If you taste coffee that smells and tastes like this...

00:08:29.000 It's almost certain that it comes from Ethiopia.

00:08:31.000 Because of the variety they grow there, because of the way that they process it, etc., it makes it really special.

00:08:38.000 So, this was roasted by a company in San Francisco called Wrecking Ball Coffee.

00:08:45.000 And the coffee is called Ethiopia Classic Yergeshef.

00:08:49.000 Classic meaning...

00:08:50.000 How do you spell Yergeshef again?

00:08:51.000 Y-I-G... Y-I-G... Y-I-R-G-A-C-H-E-F-F-E. Isn't it a weird thing where you have to write it down to look at it to make sure it's right?

00:09:06.000 Well, the other weird thing, too, is that that's one way to spell it.

00:09:10.000 If you're in Yergeshef...

00:09:12.000 And you look at signs, they're all spelled a different way.

00:09:14.000 Because it's actually an Amharic.

00:09:16.000 It's a different language.

00:09:17.000 And they just translate it to English in various ways.

00:09:20.000 So you can spell it.

00:09:21.000 I've been involved in internet...

00:09:23.000 Okay, here's another Coffee Geek admission.

00:09:25.000 I've been involved in these internet conversations about how you should spell Yergeshev.

00:09:29.000 And also, how you should pronounce it.

00:09:31.000 In Ethiopian, they pronounce it differently in a way that I can't actually pronounce it.

00:09:36.000 How do they say it?

00:09:37.000 Give it a shot.

00:09:38.000 Yergeshev.

00:09:39.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:40.000 That last thing is like a breathing out.

00:09:43.000 But you just did it.

00:09:43.000 How come you didn't do that?

00:09:45.000 You feel pretentious?

00:09:45.000 There was an Ethiopian guy next to me, yeah.

00:09:47.000 Exactly.

00:09:48.000 You feel like, you know, it's like saying, I've just been to Roma or something.

00:09:51.000 Yeah, that is a weird thing.

00:09:52.000 I have my friend Amber Lyon, who's coming on the podcast soon.

00:09:55.000 She was talking about Bahrain.

00:09:57.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:58.000 Instead of Bahrain, which is almost, she was saying Bahrain.

00:10:01.000 Right.

00:10:01.000 But then she let it go and she said Bahrain.

00:10:03.000 I'm like, wait a minute.

00:10:04.000 Yeah.

00:10:04.000 It's gotta be one or the other.

00:10:05.000 Well, it's like here in Southern California when a newscaster suddenly just goes into the perfect Spanish pronunciation or something.

00:10:11.000 Oh, yes, yes.

00:10:12.000 You know, brrito.

00:10:13.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:10:14.000 That's very important if you want to maintain the Latin audience.

00:10:16.000 That's right. 1.00

00:10:17.000 You gotta roll your R's, bitch. 1.00

00:10:18.000 But anyway, I don't try for that with coffee names because it's a little too wild. 1.00

00:10:21.000 Well, you're taking a chance on being already kind of labeled as a crazy coffee person.

00:10:26.000 But if you could pronounce all the words, then the pretentiousness level gets very risky.

00:10:31.000 Well, that's a thing with being a coffee person. 0.85

00:10:34.000 Because people are afraid that you're going to be kind of a douchebag about your coffee.

00:10:40.000 Because it's a weird conundrum. 0.54

00:10:43.000 Because on the one hand, people like that you take it seriously.

00:10:47.000 And because you're trying to make...

00:10:51.000 Embrace something that's super delicious.

00:10:53.000 And you want it to be more delicious and better tasting and stuff like that.

00:10:58.000 And so that causes you to learn stuff about the geography of where coffee comes from and all this weird trivia.

00:11:06.000 And you start to learn about that stuff and it's good.

00:11:09.000 But at the same time, it's very easy when you get really into something to start to alienate people.

00:11:14.000 And that goes for anything.

00:11:15.000 That goes for wine or food or any sort of hobby.

00:11:22.000 When people can't...

00:11:24.000 Talk about anything else.

00:11:25.000 And then they start to get kind of snobby about stuff.

00:11:28.000 And so it's a struggle for coffee people all the time.

00:11:31.000 Because what I know, and I've learned in my many years of doing this thing, is that, especially in the morning, people just want their coffee. 0.95

00:11:41.000 They don't want to fuck around with all this stuff like that. 0.97

00:11:45.000 And we learned that. 0.98

00:11:47.000 So I started as a barista.

00:11:49.000 I worked for many, many years as a barista behind the bar, making people their coffee in the morning.

00:11:55.000 So do you really appreciate when someone's a connoisseur, the difference between a guy who's like, I just want a cup of coffee, and a guy who's like, what's your blends today?

00:12:02.000 And a guy who's really into it.

00:12:03.000 Well, lots of times it's the same person.

00:12:05.000 Like, a person that later in the day will be, like, all into what kind of coffee it is and really particular. 0.81

00:12:12.000 Everybody, just their first cup of coffee, they just want a freaking cup of coffee.

00:12:16.000 Even coffee pros like me, you know, we dispense with all that stuff.

00:12:21.000 That time when you, you know, you've been there.

00:12:24.000 You wake up in the morning...

00:12:26.000 You don't know what's going on.

00:12:27.000 All you want is a cup of coffee and people to be nice to you for the first couple of hours of your day, usually.

00:12:33.000 Most of the time when I don't have any time and I just want some sort of caffeine product, I have one of those little espresso things where you put those little capsules in there and you punch it down.

00:12:43.000 You press the button and a shot of espresso comes out.

00:12:46.000 Are those bad?

00:12:48.000 It doesn't taste as good as real espresso.

00:12:51.000 That's the thing.

00:12:51.000 They're convenient.

00:12:54.000 Whether they're...

00:12:57.000 There's a lot of disadvantages to a thing like that.

00:13:01.000 On the other hand, I've tasted delicious coffee out of those.

00:13:04.000 Really?

00:13:04.000 If the coffee going in is good, if the machine is working right, I mean, there's all sorts of different kinds of machines.

00:13:12.000 I don't expect you to know this because you don't manufacture these things, but they're plastic, right?

00:13:17.000 Is that what it is?

00:13:18.000 Like a metal or a plastic?

00:13:19.000 There are some that are made out of aluminum, others that are made out of plastic, yeah.

00:13:22.000 Yeah, I think the ones I have are aluminum.

00:13:24.000 So is that stuff okay for the flavor when you're heating that up?

00:13:28.000 Yeah.

00:13:28.000 If you're heating up the aluminum, it doesn't mess it up?

00:13:29.000 Yeah, that's not the problem.

00:13:30.000 The problem, that's...

00:13:33.000 Aluminum is pretty, you know, resistant to stuff like that.

00:13:36.000 And they make that metal work.

00:13:38.000 You know, it's like a soda pop can.

00:13:39.000 So they've engineered it to work well.

00:13:41.000 So it's not an issue with flavor.

00:13:42.000 It's just an issue of what's in it.

00:13:44.000 Well, right.

00:13:44.000 And also how the machine works.

00:13:47.000 So if, like, you guys made coffee here today and you did it in a great way by boiling the water in a kettle and then you have a French press and you use it.

00:13:56.000 Now, the great thing about that is...

00:13:58.000 Is that you're boiling the water.

00:14:00.000 The water is getting to 212. That's where it boils.

00:14:03.000 And then by the time you pour it in the French press, it's cooled off.

00:14:06.000 Maybe it's 207, 205. Is that where you should have it at?

00:14:10.000 195 to 205 degrees is where you should be brewing coffee. 1.00

00:14:14.000 You're fucking crazy. 1.00

00:14:15.000 I know. 1.00

00:14:15.000 You got so intense. 1.00

00:14:17.000 You're like, 195 to 205 degrees.

00:14:19.000 This is the honey spot.

00:14:20.000 It is.

00:14:21.000 It's the honey spot.

00:14:22.000 That's where we get, you know, guys like me get fired up over stuff like that.

00:14:25.000 Well, we bought, today is the first day of using it here, what I have at home, which is, I think it's called Breville, B-R-E-V-I-L-L-E, and it'll show you, like, you could have one button for oolong tea, the other button for French press, and so this is the French press button, so I assume that they get it right.

00:14:41.000 Oh, okay.

00:14:41.000 Then that's even better.

00:14:42.000 Then what it did, and this is Breville, they make some wonderful, incredible coffee equipment.

00:14:48.000 Yeah, they do.

00:14:48.000 And so the French press button will, I'm sure, get it to 205 degrees.

00:14:56.000 We should put a thermometer in that bitch to find out whether or not we should find out. 1.00

00:15:00.000 We need a thermometer, Jimmy. 0.99

00:15:02.000 It's very important.

00:15:04.000 Well, that's the thing.

00:15:05.000 Guys like me, we have thermometers at home because it makes a difference.

00:15:09.000 Wow.

00:15:10.000 No, but check this out.

00:15:11.000 I believe you, man.

00:15:11.000 What I was going to say is the machines, whether it's a pod machine or a capsule machine like you're talking about or a Mr. Coffee type machine, Black& Decker, whatever, all those kinds of coffee machines.

00:15:22.000 One of the big challenges with those things is if they don't get hot enough.

00:15:25.000 If they're brewing coffee at 180 degrees, it's going to taste like crap. 0.92

00:15:29.000 Oh, okay. 0.66

00:15:30.000 So you're cooking it while you're brewing it.

00:15:32.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:15:33.000 So the water is hot, you know, some amount of hot.

00:15:37.000 And if it's the right amount of hot in between 195 and 205, right about 200 degrees, Then it makes the coffee taste better.

00:15:46.000 So it actually literally changes the flavor that's coming out of the beans when it's hot enough to activate it.

00:15:51.000 Right.

00:15:52.000 And too hot is bad.

00:15:53.000 Too hot is bad.

00:15:54.000 And so here's the deal with coffee.

00:15:56.000 It's like if you looked at it under a microscope, took a slice of it, and then looked at that under a microscope, you'd see all the cellular structure of the coffee.

00:16:04.000 And it's like a sponge.

00:16:06.000 And inside the sponge is all the oils and sugars and fats and stuff that make really complicated.

00:16:15.000 It's, you know, thousands of little different chemicals in there that you need to get out of the sponge.

00:16:23.000 You need to essentially rinse it out of the coffee to get it into your cup.

00:16:27.000 And that's what brewing is all about.

00:16:28.000 Now, if you don't do that well enough, you leave all the good tasting stuff in the coffee and That sponge, the coffee cell walls, you know, and it doesn't get in your cup and your coffee doesn't taste very good.

00:16:43.000 And plus, you've wasted all the good stuff, you wind up throwing it in the trash.

00:16:48.000 If the opposite thing happens, if you extract too much out of the coffee, if you squeeze that sponge until it's perfectly dry...

00:16:56.000 Then the last stuff to get extracted tastes kind of bitter and like tannic.

00:17:04.000 It doesn't taste good.

00:17:06.000 It has a characteristic that we call overextracted.

00:17:10.000 And so that bitter tannin comes from a prolonged exposure to hot water?

00:17:14.000 Either the water being too hot, or you brewing it for too long, or, for example, if you boiled coffee like they used to do in the cowboy days, they used to boil coffee over the campfire.

00:17:27.000 That will make the coffee taste bitter and acrid and awful, and it's because it's overextracted.

00:17:32.000 And that over-extraction is what creates tannins?

00:17:35.000 Right.

00:17:36.000 Well, not tannins specifically, but that tannic sort of flavor.

00:17:39.000 It makes a stringency taste in your mouth.

00:17:42.000 And that bitterness is from the heat itself?

00:17:44.000 Well, it's from over-extraction.

00:17:46.000 It's extracting bad-tasting stuff out of the coffee.

00:17:49.000 So it extracts all the good-tasting stuff, but then there's an additional extraction.

00:17:53.000 Exactly, of bad-tasting stuff, too.

00:17:54.000 Oh, that's fascinating.

00:17:55.000 Yeah.

00:17:55.000 So you want to get the stuff that's like loose.

00:17:57.000 Like a ripe fruit almost.

00:17:59.000 Right.

00:18:00.000 It's like right in the middle.

00:18:01.000 It's the sweet spot.

00:18:02.000 And so this organization that I work for called the Specialty Coffee Association, we, in the 1950s, they started to do some science about this and how to brew coffee properly and get the coffee to where it tasted best to the most people.

00:18:15.000 And they had thousands of people tasting different coffees, you know, and they determined what the...

00:18:23.000 Perfect extraction of a cup of coffee was to most people in the world.

00:18:29.000 And then they designed amount of extraction.

00:18:35.000 So I'm going to get technical on you again.

00:18:37.000 So I already told you 195 to 205 is the right temperature.

00:18:41.000 The extraction that you want to get is between 18 and 22 percent extraction.

00:18:48.000 Now, this is coffee geek stuff that nobody wants to hear, but this is the kind of stuff that we talk to each other about.

00:18:53.000 Wow.

00:18:54.000 And so, like, good...

00:18:58.000 If you have a favorite coffee place where the baristas are, like, really good and they make the coffee taste really good, chances are they know about that...

00:19:05.000 And they're trying to get the coffee within that extraction window so it tastes great.

00:19:11.000 If you exceed 22%, and something closer to 30% of the coffee is actually extractable, you could get 30% of the material out of the coffee if you wanted.

00:19:22.000 If you totally squeeze the sponge dry, but 18 to 22% is where it tastes good.

00:19:28.000 Wow, that's crazy.

00:19:29.000 It is.

00:19:30.000 Now, you jumped at the chance to pour this coffee and to brew this coffee yourself. 0.75

00:19:36.000 You didn't want us fucking it up. 0.65

00:19:37.000 Well, yeah.

00:19:38.000 Well, it's true.

00:19:39.000 With good reason. 0.97

00:19:40.000 Neither Jamie nor I know what the fuck we're doing. 0.98

00:19:41.000 He seems like he knows what he's talking about. 0.97

00:19:42.000 I doubt it.

00:19:43.000 Trust me.

00:19:43.000 He learned everything from me.

00:19:44.000 Okay.

00:19:46.000 We know a little bit, you know, but when it comes to these sort of things like times of extraction and temperature, does it vary depending on what kind of coffee you have?

00:19:58.000 Like, this is an Ethiopian coffee.

00:19:59.000 Would you have a different if it was a Jamaican? 0.96

00:20:02.000 Yep, it absolutely does.

00:20:03.000 And so when...

00:20:07.000 When coffee pros sort of start to work with a coffee, we'll experiment with different temperatures, different kinds of extraction, different coarseness of grind to try to get it right.

00:20:20.000 Find a sweet spot.

00:20:20.000 Yeah, we call it dialing it in.

00:20:22.000 So if we're like...

00:20:26.000 If you're with a group of coffee people and there's a new coffee, you'll ask somebody, did you dial it in?

00:20:31.000 And that means, did you get it tasting the way it should be tasting?

00:20:35.000 Wow.

00:20:35.000 And so, what are the variables?

00:20:37.000 Like, how much is the spectrum?

00:20:39.000 The variance between, say, what's like an extreme?

00:20:42.000 Give me an extreme on each end.

00:20:43.000 Of what?

00:20:44.000 Of like, brew times and temperatures, and what's the difference?

00:20:48.000 Okay.

00:20:50.000 So, first of all, there's a lot of different ways.

00:20:53.000 Can I have some more of that, too?

00:20:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:54.000 Stuff's delicious.

00:20:55.000 Thank you.

00:20:57.000 There's a lot of different...

00:20:58.000 I'm going to have a little more, too.

00:21:01.000 It does smell really unique.

00:21:02.000 Yeah.

00:21:03.000 It's really beautiful.

00:21:04.000 Clean, clean, floral coffee.

00:21:06.000 Yeah, it's so different.

00:21:07.000 We usually have this Hawaiian stuff lately.

00:21:09.000 Yeah.

00:21:09.000 Hawaii Roasters.

00:21:10.000 I'm drinking that.

00:21:11.000 It's really delicious.

00:21:13.000 Yeah, this is probably like the polar opposite of that, actually.

00:21:16.000 Yeah, it's very different.

00:21:17.000 It smells amazing.

00:21:18.000 Yeah.

00:21:19.000 That's the thing about this coffee, is it's super fragrant.

00:21:22.000 Yeah, in a very unusual way.

00:21:24.000 It doesn't smell like coffee.

00:21:25.000 It's almost like a tea.

00:21:26.000 It's almost like tea.

00:21:27.000 Exactly right.

00:21:29.000 I would describe this coffee as being tea-like.

00:21:31.000 Yeah, it's really beautiful.

00:21:33.000 So anyway, there's all these different ways to brew coffee.

00:21:36.000 So you've got a French press here.

00:21:39.000 There's a pour-over coffee, a drip coffee that uses a paper filter.

00:21:43.000 What do you think of those little vacuum things? 0.65

00:21:43.000 What are those little vacuum things called? 0.65

00:21:45.000 You might be talking about an AeroPress.

00:21:47.000 Are those good?

00:21:48.000 Yeah.

00:21:48.000 Coffee people love them.

00:21:50.000 Mm-hmm.

00:21:51.000 And each one of those has a different deal.

00:21:54.000 So, like, in this French press, coffee will steep for a while, sort of like tea, and then you press it down and whatever.

00:22:00.000 And how long do you usually steep it?

00:22:02.000 Well, four to six minutes is kind of a window.

00:22:04.000 Really?

00:22:05.000 Yeah.

00:22:05.000 Now, how does something like a clover work, then?

00:22:07.000 Because the clover, that crazy computerized coffee machine, that cooked it very quickly, right?

00:22:11.000 Very quickly, right.

00:22:12.000 So, the way that that works is it's designed to be able to have finer coffee, you know?

00:22:18.000 Mm-hmm.

00:22:21.000 Which changes the...

00:22:22.000 Which changes the extraction.

00:22:23.000 Oh, okay.

00:22:24.000 Makes it easier.

00:22:24.000 Because it's surface area, right?

00:22:25.000 If you grind it really fine, then it can extract really quickly.

00:22:31.000 So that's why, like, in an espresso machine, it's ground, like, to a powder.

00:22:35.000 Pull that video up of the clover machine, just so you can see what we're talking about.

00:22:39.000 For folks who don't know, some genius guys who are coffee nerds.

00:22:42.000 Sorry.

00:22:43.000 Yeah.

00:22:43.000 Xander Nosler.

00:22:44.000 I guess I'm a coffee nerd, too.

00:22:45.000 I'm just undereducated.

00:22:46.000 Yeah, you are.

00:22:47.000 But from Stanford University?

00:22:49.000 Right, yeah.

00:22:50.000 And they figured out this machine, which costs some upwards of $10,000.

00:22:55.000 $10,000, yeah.

00:22:55.000 Yeah, like $11,000.

00:22:57.000 And I fucking never thought about buying one until I watched someone do it and use it. 0.99

00:23:03.000 And I was like, oh, this might be the fucking coolest thing ever, like for a real coffee dork. 0.99

00:23:07.000 And then I found out that Starbucks bought them all. 0.98

00:23:09.000 They bought them, yeah. 1.00

00:23:10.000 Those sons of bitches. 1.00

00:23:11.000 And I don't even see them. 1.00

00:23:12.000 I never see them in a Starbucks.

00:23:13.000 Oh, yeah, they have them, but they're not that...

00:23:16.000 Well... 0.99

00:23:16.000 Starbucks should fucking sell them. 0.99

00:23:17.000 I'll buy one of these for the office. 1.00

00:23:18.000 They might sell one to you.

00:23:19.000 If they would, I would be totally willing to buy one of those and just put it in this office.

00:23:23.000 I'll see if I can make that happen.

00:23:24.000 Dude!

00:23:25.000 It's gonna happen!

00:23:27.000 Yeah, but I mean, I used to have one in my office.

00:23:30.000 So this is incredibly variable.

00:23:32.000 Yeah.

00:23:32.000 This thing, if you've never seen it, is this really beautifully constructed...

00:23:36.000 It looks like a giant piston, like a car engine piston.

00:23:40.000 And you pour coffee in it and the water in it, and you stir it with like a little whisk...

00:23:45.000 And then dial in the coffee based on the known recipes for that coffee.

00:23:51.000 Right.

00:23:52.000 Exactly.

00:23:53.000 And it was made really fancy.

00:23:55.000 Here it is.

00:23:56.000 Yeah.

00:23:56.000 It could communicate with other machines, and you could send the recipe from one machine to another.

00:24:00.000 Whoa! 0.71

00:24:01.000 That's creepy.

00:24:02.000 They're going to take over.

00:24:02.000 Yeah.

00:24:03.000 Coffee machine's going to take over.

00:24:04.000 And at the end, it's really unusual.

00:24:06.000 It leaves this hockey puck.

00:24:20.000 Yeah.

00:24:21.000 Yeah.

00:24:22.000 Yeah.

00:24:23.000 Yeah.

00:24:37.000 The reason that can happen so quickly is because you can use fine coffee because it's got that hydraulic piston that sort of pushes it up.

00:24:44.000 That's incredibly strong.

00:24:46.000 It's got this metal filter that the coffee grounds kind of sit on top of.

00:24:51.000 And so it's a quasi-pressurized situation.

00:24:55.000 Somewhere in the same realm as...

00:25:00.000 AeroPress.

00:25:00.000 Something similar.

00:25:02.000 And by the way, the AeroPress is essentially a home, you know, $50 version of that.

00:25:09.000 And it's just as good?

00:25:10.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:25:11.000 Alright, fuck the clover then. 1.00

00:25:12.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:25:12.000 Jesus Christ. 1.00

00:25:13.000 We just saved ourselves $11,000.

00:25:15.000 Whatever it is.

00:25:16.000 Yeah.

00:25:16.000 That was really designed for a coffee service environment.

00:25:20.000 Seems so badass, though, man.

00:25:21.000 I'm a big fan of that kind of technology.

00:25:23.000 I want to support them.

00:25:25.000 The fact that they were willing to go out and invest the money to make something like that and design it.

00:25:28.000 Have you seen the Steampunk yet?

00:25:32.000 Okay, there's all these great coffee machines out there.

00:25:34.000 Oh, pull that up. 0.99

00:25:35.000 Pull it up.

00:25:37.000 And this is a recently...

00:25:42.000 Designed machine. 0.99

00:25:44.000 And it's got these glass tubes and bubbles and all this crazy shit. 0.99

00:25:50.000 You're going to love it. 0.99

00:25:51.000 And what is the benefit of that machine?

00:25:53.000 It's just another...

00:25:54.000 It actually works on a very similar principle to all these things.

00:26:00.000 But all coffee machines are designed...

00:26:04.000 To make it easier to do what I said before, that's the steampunk.

00:26:12.000 Each of those chambers brew coffee.

00:26:21.000 It's got a computer screen on it?

00:26:24.000 Yeah, and that computer screen is to dial in all these variables.

00:26:30.000 What's better, that or the clover?

00:26:34.000 Too much pressure?

00:26:35.000 Yeah, I can't answer your question.

00:26:37.000 That's like asking me what my favorite child is.

00:26:39.000 Oh, okay.

00:26:40.000 I'm sorry.

00:26:40.000 I apologize.

00:26:40.000 I can't play favorites.

00:26:41.000 But it's right up there with the Clover?

00:26:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:43.000 Absolutely.

00:26:44.000 How much is that band?

00:26:45.000 That thing.

00:26:45.000 That's a good question.

00:26:46.000 I don't know the answer to that.

00:26:47.000 I would guess in the same sort of range.

00:26:50.000 And all of these things.

00:26:52.000 Now, I'm going to tell you something else, which is these machines, all they do is make it easier to brew coffee like this.

00:27:02.000 So you've got some pretty sophisticated equipment in your kitchen.

00:27:06.000 And this is all what he's doing right here?

00:27:07.000 Yeah.

00:27:07.000 This is the right stuff?

00:27:08.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:09.000 Wow, this is wild, man.

00:27:10.000 This makes me feel like a scientist, though.

00:27:11.000 Yeah.

00:27:11.000 I'd like to have that.

00:27:12.000 It's kind of laboratory stuff.

00:27:14.000 Yeah.

00:27:14.000 He's a very mad scientist.

00:27:15.000 Right.

00:27:15.000 And so the water's boiling in one of them, and then the coffee's in the other one?

00:27:18.000 Is that what's going on here?

00:27:19.000 Right.

00:27:19.000 Well, the one in the middle is kind of getting ready.

00:27:22.000 Yeah, I see.

00:27:22.000 And he's going to dump some coffee in there.

00:27:25.000 And the one on the right, it's already extracting the coffee.

00:27:28.000 And those little pistons are there to sort of...

00:27:32.000 Be the filters of the coffee.

00:27:34.000 It's a complicated machine.

00:27:36.000 Yeah, I would say so.

00:27:37.000 A couple weeks ago, here in Los Angeles, there was a battle between a guy called Nick Cho.

00:27:46.000 Nick Cho is one of the owners of this coffee company who roasted this coffee we're drinking.

00:27:52.000 And then the inventor of that machine, the steampunk, went head to head.

00:27:57.000 And had like a man versus machine kind of thing.

00:28:00.000 And Nick was just using very simple little brewer that he poured the water on, just totally manual.

00:28:08.000 And then the other guy was manning the steampunk.

00:28:13.000 And they were like having this head-to-head where they each had to brew six different coffees for these three judges and they couldn't see what they were drinking, all this stuff.

00:28:21.000 And now the...

00:28:23.000 So the result was that the steampunk machine won by a hair.

00:28:27.000 It was essentially a tie.

00:28:29.000 The...

00:28:32.000 And the point is that you can make coffee delicious by being really good at mastering the variables, knowing what grind looks right, knowing how hot the water is, etc.

00:28:45.000 Or you can entrust that stuff to a machine.

00:28:48.000 And that's what machines do.

00:28:49.000 They just get the water right every time.

00:28:52.000 They get what we call the turbulence, like how much it gets stirred every time.

00:28:57.000 And if you can replicate something very precisely again and again and again, the coffee is going to be really good.

00:29:02.000 I get a sense, though, that you're a purist and that you prefer to use manual equipment, almost like if you drove a car, you would want a manual gearbox.

00:29:11.000 Are you that guy?

00:29:12.000 I am that guy.

00:29:15.000 Well, I told somebody, somebody was interviewing me for something a while ago, and I told them I don't own a coffee machine in my house, and I don't.

00:29:22.000 That I have essentially the same setup that you have.

00:29:25.000 A water boiler that boils the water for me, a good grinder.

00:29:29.000 I noticed you have a good grinder in there.

00:29:32.000 And some home-style pouring.

00:29:36.000 I use a very cheap $30 pour-over thing.

00:29:40.000 French press?

00:29:40.000 Do you have a French press?

00:29:41.000 Yeah, I have a French press.

00:29:42.000 I usually use paper filter, though, just because I prefer the flavor.

00:29:45.000 Do you really?

00:29:45.000 Yeah.

00:29:46.000 Okay, that's an interesting thing to bring up, because one of the things that I like about French press is when you get that sort of bubbly surface, and then when you pour it into a mug, you get kind of like a little foam on it.

00:29:56.000 The oil slick, yeah.

00:29:57.000 I like that.

00:29:57.000 Now, do you still get that when you go through a paper filter?

00:29:59.000 No.

00:30:00.000 That's exactly what it takes out.

00:30:01.000 But that seems like that's a good thing to keep in there.

00:30:03.000 It's a good thing to you, and that's great.

00:30:05.000 Oh, so you don't like it flavor-wise.

00:30:07.000 Okay, so we're tasting it now.

00:30:09.000 Can you taste in your mouth how you feel like you can still taste the coffee?

00:30:13.000 A little bit, yeah.

00:30:14.000 And it's coating your mouth sort of like as if you just drank a glass of milk or something?

00:30:18.000 Mm-hmm.

00:30:18.000 Okay, so that's called body or aftertaste, and aftertaste.

00:30:22.000 Those are technical coffee tasting terms.

00:30:26.000 And so body is the feeling, the texture of the coffee in your mouth, and aftertaste is the flavor of the coffee that remains in your mouth once you're gone, once it's gone.

00:30:36.000 And aftertaste, especially, is really important because you drink coffee in the morning, you're driving to work, you still have that flavor of coffee in your mouth.

00:30:43.000 If that's good, then that's great.

00:30:45.000 Then you get an extra 20 minutes out of your cup of coffee.

00:30:49.000 It's a bonus.

00:30:50.000 If it's bad, if it's a bad flavor and you feel like you need a mint, then that's like a bad aftertaste.

00:30:56.000 And so you're used to drinking good coffee.

00:30:59.000 You like that feeling in your mouth.

00:31:01.000 You like that flavor in your mouth.

00:31:03.000 You like aftertaste.

00:31:04.000 That's good.

00:31:04.000 You're brewing coffee the right way.

00:31:08.000 For me, I just tend to want to move on to the next flavor, whatever it is, whether it's more coffee.

00:31:13.000 Oh, you're such a coffee geek.

00:31:15.000 You want to geek out with a bunch of different flavors in your mouth all day.

00:31:18.000 Wow, you're taking it to a new level.

00:31:20.000 You went with a paper filter just to remove aftertaste so you could move on to the next flavor.

00:31:25.000 Couldn't you like rinse it out with some seltzer water or something like that?

00:31:27.000 You could.

00:31:28.000 People do that, yeah.

00:31:28.000 Maybe eat some ginger like you do with sushi?

00:31:30.000 Yeah.

00:31:31.000 Would that work?

00:31:32.000 Yeah, it would.

00:31:33.000 Palate cleanser? 0.50

00:31:33.000 It would. 0.50

00:31:34.000 You could do palate cleansers.

00:31:35.000 Do you have to brush your tongue or anything like that in between?

00:31:36.000 People do.

00:31:37.000 There are people that scrape their tongues, man.

00:31:39.000 I don't do any of that.

00:31:41.000 Mess.

00:31:41.000 That's the dark end of the pool.

00:31:45.000 That's people where you can't see the bottom.

00:31:46.000 Yeah.

00:31:47.000 Your coffee geeking out in the most hardcore way ever.

00:31:49.000 Yeah.

00:31:50.000 So this is a very delicious coffee, and one of the things that I noticed is that you serve it completely black.

00:31:57.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:31:57.000 You don't fuck around with coffee fillers or sugars. 0.98

00:32:00.000 Yeah, I don't, but I mean, generally, we coffee people don't judge people that do that. 0.96

00:32:06.000 I appreciate that.

00:32:06.000 Everybody's always apologizing to me.

00:32:07.000 I appreciate that.

00:32:08.000 That's very sweet.

00:32:09.000 Do you put stuff in your coffee?

00:32:10.000 Yeah, usually.

00:32:12.000 This is why I wanted you to try this.

00:32:13.000 This is coffee mixed with grass-fed butter and MCT oil.

00:32:18.000 We found about this from...

00:32:20.000 Can I get it from here?

00:32:21.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:22.000 This is Hawaii Roasters, right?

00:32:24.000 Is this Hawaii Roasters or Rusty's Hawaiian?

00:32:26.000 I think it's at Rusty's.

00:32:27.000 Rusty's.

00:32:28.000 Rusty's Hawaiian.

00:32:30.000 I found out about this from this dude, Dave Asprey.

00:32:33.000 He calls it Bulletproof Coffee.

00:32:35.000 Apparently, a guy named Rob Wolf, he was the first guy to figure it out.

00:32:39.000 What it is is coffee mixed with grass-fed butter and MCT oil, and then it's blended.

00:32:44.000 The idea being that blending it all up like that, you get all the healthy fats mixed in with the caffeine.

00:32:49.000 What is MCT oil?

00:32:50.000 Medium-chain triglyceride oil.

00:32:52.000 It's like...

00:32:54.000 Palm oils and mostly coconut oils.

00:32:57.000 They spin it in a centrifuge and extract it.

00:33:00.000 I don't know the exact process, but it's essentially healthy fats.

00:33:04.000 And it's all mixed with this.

00:33:06.000 And the benefit of it is that because it's all connected to the fats, you get sort of a slow burn, a slow release. 0.88

00:33:12.000 I get the impression from you, though, that you're fucking hopped up on coffee all day in a bunch of different kinds. 0.92

00:33:16.000 You don't need no slow release. 0.97

00:33:17.000 You're just riding that boat right into the rocks.

00:33:20.000 It's interesting.

00:33:21.000 There was something you said earlier, like as we were getting started, you were talking about the bars at the top of the show.

00:33:28.000 The meat bar or something like that?

00:33:31.000 Yeah, the warrior bar.

00:33:32.000 Right, okay.

00:33:33.000 The buffalo and cranberry bar.

00:33:35.000 So there's a story in coffee.

00:33:38.000 And we don't know if it's true or not, but this is the legend, is that in ancient Ethiopia, that Ethiopian warriors would take the fruits of the coffee.

00:33:47.000 So coffee grows like a fruit.

00:33:50.000 You may have seen pictures.

00:33:51.000 It looks like a cherry.

00:33:52.000 Yeah, I have.

00:33:53.000 And the two beans are like flat up against each other, like the pits of the cherry.

00:33:58.000 But around that is like a fruit layer, like a sweet fruit layer.

00:34:02.000 The fruit tastes sort of like, it's kind of slimy, but it tastes like a mix of watermelon and jasmine.

00:34:09.000 And then there's kind of a tough leathery skin outside.

00:34:13.000 And the legend says that the Ethiopians would take that fruit and We're good to go. 1.00

00:34:30.000 And they would make balls out of them and put them in their packs.

00:34:35.000 And then just before a battle, these warriors would eat this power bar thing.

00:34:42.000 And it was like fat from the animal fat to give you energy, and then the sugar from the coffee fruit to give that blast of energy, and then the caffeine together.

00:34:56.000 Now, some people say that this is like an invented story.

00:35:00.000 Other people say that this is what the ancient Ethiopians actually did before fighting a battle.

00:35:06.000 What is known is that the ancient Ethiopians were known as Especially intense warriors.

00:35:12.000 How come nobody has recreated this?

00:35:14.000 We need an Onnit coffee ball.

00:35:16.000 We need to make that right away.

00:35:17.000 That seems like something we need to try.

00:35:19.000 Well, when you said coffee and butter, that's what I thought of, is that kind of thing, these coffee balls with butter.

00:35:27.000 Maybe that's what they're trying to kind of recreate here.

00:35:29.000 I don't know.

00:35:29.000 Well, this is apparently the original.

00:35:33.000 People have been putting ghee.

00:35:34.000 You know what ghee is?

00:35:35.000 They've been putting that in coffee for a long time.

00:35:37.000 But there was also like a yak tea that the Himalayans used, the Tibetans used, that was mixed with this yak butter and tea to make like this creamy sort of a concoction.

00:35:49.000 What I like about mixing it with the butter and the MCT oil is that it gives you a long-lasting effect of the caffeine.

00:35:57.000 Your body has to break down all those fats and sort of blend it in and connect it with the caffeine.

00:36:01.000 You don't get it as a big burst.

00:36:03.000 I drank this stuff because I haven't been drinking black coffee in quite a while.

00:36:07.000 With nothing attached to it, it's just like, woo!

00:36:09.000 It just goes right into your system and you can feel yourself pepping up.

00:36:14.000 How do you avoid heart attacks?

00:36:15.000 It's interesting.

00:36:17.000 I don't...

00:36:19.000 Don't worry about it.

00:36:20.000 Just keep drinking the coffee?

00:36:21.000 I'm just kidding, obviously.

00:36:22.000 But you do get a rush from this.

00:36:23.000 This is some strong caffeine coffee.

00:36:25.000 This is some strong stuff.

00:36:26.000 Yeah.

00:36:27.000 I mean, I guess I don't...

00:36:29.000 In a good way.

00:36:29.000 I'm not criticizing it.

00:36:30.000 No, no, I know.

00:36:31.000 And it's really uniquely delicious.

00:36:33.000 Yeah.

00:36:33.000 I'm kind of shocked.

00:36:35.000 My favorite coffee lately is this stuff called Rusty's Hawaiian.

00:36:38.000 I've been drinking this a lot lately.

00:36:39.000 I know Rusty's, yeah.

00:36:40.000 Ooh! 0.96

00:36:41.000 God, it's so good.

00:36:42.000 Yeah.

00:36:42.000 God, that stuff is good.

00:36:44.000 There's something I really love about coffee from the Big Island, and I don't know what it is, but I had first tried Hawaiian...

00:36:50.000 Was it Hawaiian Roasters is the red bag?

00:36:52.000 Mm-hmm.

00:36:53.000 Somebody told me about it, like, dude, you gotta try Hawaiian coffee.

00:36:57.000 And so I got a hold of this stuff a while back, and it's my all-time favorite coffee.

00:37:02.000 It just has this, like, really sort of a dark, rich taste to it.

00:37:08.000 Very, very different from this stuff, this Ethiopian stuff. 1.00

00:37:11.000 Yeah.

00:37:12.000 Oh yeah, it's a different deal.

00:37:13.000 If coffee started there, it started in Ethiopia, now did people take the plants and plant them in other places?

00:37:20.000 Is that what happened?

00:37:21.000 Yeah, so what happened was, so the Ethiopians were the first ones to sort of discover coffee.

00:37:24.000 This is what we have here, which we usually drink.

00:37:27.000 That's my favorite, the one in the red bag.

00:37:29.000 Yeah, Rusty's.

00:37:30.000 What is it called?

00:37:30.000 It has a name, though.

00:37:31.000 It's like...

00:37:32.000 Here it says mocha peaberry from Maui.

00:37:34.000 Yeah, that's like a 94 on there.

00:37:38.000 Rated coffee?

00:37:39.000 Yeah.

00:37:39.000 Okay.

00:37:39.000 So good, man.

00:37:40.000 Yeah.

00:37:41.000 But this is part of the story.

00:37:42.000 I can tell you, you were asking about coffee coming from Ethiopia, etc.?

00:37:47.000 Mm-hmm.

00:37:47.000 Okay, so, yeah.

00:37:51.000 Okay, this is cool.

00:37:52.000 They're really tiny.

00:37:53.000 Really tiny.

00:37:54.000 Yeah.

00:37:54.000 And so, what happened was, it's from the forests of Ethiopia.

00:38:01.000 On either side of what's called the Rift Valley, it's where the human species evolved.

00:38:06.000 It's where we evolved over there.

00:38:08.000 And coffee evolved in the same place, which is crazy to begin with.

00:38:15.000 And the Ethiopians consumed it somehow.

00:38:19.000 But then somehow, probably by the people on the other side of the Red Sea in what's now Yemen, which was then called Arabia Felix, This is like in about 1100. They said,

00:38:35.000 wait a second, some of the Ethiopian slaves brought some coffee seeds over there and they started planting coffee in what's now Yemen.

00:38:49.000 And they started growing it and it turned into a big deal.

00:38:52.000 And they were the first ones that actually exported it out of the area.

00:38:58.000 And the main port at that time in Yemen was called Mocha.

00:39:02.000 So you've heard of a cafe mocha.

00:39:06.000 This coffee is called Mocha.

00:39:08.000 Mocha Java.

00:39:09.000 Yeah, Mocha Java, all that stuff.

00:39:11.000 That's all a reference to this one port in Yemen.

00:39:14.000 And it's still there.

00:39:15.000 It's called Al-Mukkah. 0.95

00:39:18.000 Wow.

00:39:18.000 I thought mocha had something to do with chocolate.

00:39:21.000 Chocolate, yeah. 0.99

00:39:23.000 We fucked it up. 0.86

00:39:24.000 Well, it's that people started adding chocolate to coffee that wasn't from there to try to make it taste like it was from there. 0.95

00:39:31.000 Really?

00:39:32.000 Yeah.

00:39:32.000 So it had a natural chocolatey taste to it.

00:39:33.000 Naturally chocolatey taste to it.

00:39:35.000 Can you still get coffee from there?

00:39:36.000 It's very hard because it's Yemen. 1.00

00:39:38.000 It's creepy.

00:39:40.000 It's a difficult place to do business with.

00:39:42.000 We need to make friends with Prince Nassim Hamed.

00:39:44.000 Do you remember that guy?

00:39:45.000 No.

00:39:45.000 He was a boxer from Yemen.

00:39:47.000 Badass dude. 1.00

00:39:48.000 Did a lot of wild shit. 1.00

00:39:48.000 Came in on a magic carpet. 1.00

00:39:50.000 Oh, crazy.

00:39:51.000 He used to dance around the ring.

00:39:52.000 Yemen's an amazing place.

00:39:54.000 I've never been there, but I've seen lots of pictures.

00:39:56.000 I've known lots of Yemeni people.

00:39:58.000 But it's just politically a little dangerous, volatile spot.

00:40:03.000 That's unfortunate.

00:40:04.000 That sounds like it's got some unique coffee out of there.

00:40:07.000 Anyway, when they brought coffee from Ethiopia to Yemen, they brought only a few plants.

00:40:13.000 And then they used those to be the parents of all the coffee in Yemen.

00:40:19.000 And they were the ones that exported it anyway.

00:40:22.000 But then...

00:40:23.000 This is in history.

00:40:25.000 They were growing coffee.

00:40:26.000 They were exporting it.

00:40:27.000 Other people said, wait a second, we want in on this coffee deal because you're making money selling coffee. 0.99

00:40:31.000 But they had a penalty of death if you took seeds out of Yemen at that time.

00:40:39.000 If you got caught exporting fertile coffee seeds, you could be put to death.

00:40:43.000 It was that valuable?

00:40:44.000 That valuable.

00:40:44.000 That's incredible.

00:40:45.000 And this is at a time when the English and the Dutch were fighting over the Dutch East Indies as the Spice Islands.

00:40:52.000 Everybody was trying to get some colonies going to export these cash crops, and they saw coffee as a potential cash crop.

00:41:00.000 Some Dutch spies successfully got some coffee out of Yemen, and they planted it on Wow! 1.00

00:41:19.000 Wow!

00:41:21.000 Wow!

00:41:27.000 Wow!

00:41:27.000 And Mocha Java.

00:41:29.000 Mocha Java.

00:41:30.000 And 150 years ago, those were the two places that made most of the coffee in the world.

00:41:35.000 The port of Mocha in Yemen and the island of Java in the Dutch East Indies.

00:41:41.000 Wow!

00:41:42.000 And Ethiopia back then, if that's where it all started from...

00:41:47.000 They weren't exporting anything then.

00:41:48.000 They were just letting it grow?

00:41:49.000 They were just drinking it themselves.

00:41:51.000 Wow!

00:41:52.000 Yeah.

00:41:52.000 And they didn't build an export market.

00:41:54.000 Wow.

00:41:55.000 So then it gets weirder.

00:41:59.000 You ready?

00:42:00.000 Yeah.

00:42:00.000 So at one point, the Dutch and the French signed a treaty, like some sort of treaty.

00:42:10.000 And as a gift, the Dutch gave one coffee tree to the French.

00:42:15.000 One coffee tree.

00:42:17.000 And the French, in France, they built a... 0.79

00:42:26.000 Yeah.

00:42:46.000 They wanted to plant some coffee, the French did, for their colonies.

00:42:50.000 And so this one guy named Gabriel de Clou, he was responsible for bringing the coffee from France to Martinique.

00:43:00.000 But, so he brought this one plant, and he had it in a glass box, but they ran out of wind on the journey, and so they were stuck in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

00:43:09.000 Gabriel Declue was sharing his water ration with this plant to keep it alive.

00:43:14.000 He managed to keep it alive, planted it, and that one plant was the parent of most the coffee in Central America, South America, etc. 0.99

00:43:24.000 Holy shit! 0.99

00:43:26.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:43:26.000 So, now, there's a scientific impact to this because all the genetic diversity that was in Ethiopia, all the thousands of different coffee varieties that were in Ethiopia, imagine how that got narrowed down from getting brought from Ethiopia to Yemen in the first place. 0.98

00:43:43.000 Then whatever plants those Dutch spies stole to put the coffee in Java, then that one plant that went to... 0.64

00:43:53.000 That went to the New World, that went to France first and then to the New World. 0.94

00:43:58.000 They call it a genetic bottleneck.

00:44:00.000 So all the coffee outside of Ethiopia is kind of siblings to one another.

00:44:06.000 That's incredible.

00:44:07.000 And that's a problem for us because if there's a disease that that one genetic variety of coffee is susceptible to, it can wipe out the whole coffee deal.

00:44:18.000 It's so incredible that one particular area of the world was the only place where this stuff was growing.

00:44:24.000 And now it's considered to be a completely worldwide beverage.

00:44:27.000 Yeah.

00:44:27.000 Oh, yeah.

00:44:28.000 And the Ethiopians are kind of, they're kind of pissed off about that. 1.00

00:44:32.000 Seriously, if you go and you talk to them, and they're like, because, you know, everybody says they've identified coffee with Colombia.

00:44:39.000 Right.

00:44:40.000 You know, Juan Valdez or whatever.

00:44:41.000 Right. 1.00

00:44:41.000 Fucking Juan, man. 1.00

00:44:42.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:44:42.000 And they hate Juan Valdez in Ethiopia. 1.00

00:44:46.000 They're like, that's our thing.

00:44:48.000 That's our thing that the world is getting rich on.

00:44:52.000 But that's right.

00:44:53.000 I mean, that's true.

00:44:53.000 If you go to Ethiopia, the different kinds of flavors that you can get in coffee from Ethiopia is crazy compared to anywhere else.

00:45:01.000 Really?

00:45:02.000 So it's a genetic diversity issue.

00:45:03.000 Genetic diversity thing.

00:45:04.000 Each village in Ethiopia has their own variety of coffee that they grow traditionally.

00:45:10.000 Wow.

00:45:11.000 And how many different varieties are there?

00:45:13.000 Well, that's a good question.

00:45:14.000 We don't know completely.

00:45:15.000 There's scientists that are out in Ethiopia right now trying to count all the different coffee varieties.

00:45:22.000 And the estimation is that there are somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 different varieties of coffee growing wild in Ethiopia.

00:45:30.000 And outside of Ethiopia, there's like 30. Wow.

00:45:35.000 Yeah.

00:45:35.000 Wow.

00:45:36.000 Yeah.

00:45:37.000 It's crazy.

00:45:38.000 That's nuts.

00:45:38.000 So every legit coffee connoisseur is like a big fan of Ethiopia.

00:45:42.000 Do you have like an Ethiopia t-shirt that you wear?

00:45:44.000 Yeah.

00:45:46.000 That's the spot.

00:45:47.000 It's like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

00:45:48.000 Brazil is the spot, right? 0.69

00:45:49.000 So Ethiopia. 0.95

00:45:50.000 It's the origin, center of origin.

00:45:51.000 Right.

00:45:52.000 If you want to get into Taekwondo, you go to Korea.

00:45:54.000 Right.

00:45:54.000 Yeah.

00:45:55.000 Wow.

00:45:55.000 That's amazing, man.

00:45:57.000 So this particular blend that we had is from Ethiopia.

00:46:02.000 And what are the variables in Ethiopian coffees?

00:46:06.000 Like what's, this is, sorry, say the name again.

00:46:09.000 How do you say it again?

00:46:09.000 Yergeshef.

00:46:09.000 Yergeshev.

00:46:10.000 And this Yergeshev is a fruity, sort of floral one.

00:46:14.000 Right.

00:46:14.000 But I would assume that with thousands of different varieties, you get a broad spectrum of different flavors.

00:46:19.000 Right.

00:46:20.000 So just north of Yergeshev is kind of a larger area.

00:46:27.000 And actually, Yergeshev is within an area called Sadama is the name of the region.

00:46:32.000 And we call coffees from there Sadamos.

00:46:33.000 Oh.

00:46:34.000 So Sadamos are similar to Yergeshev, but they're not as floral.

00:46:39.000 They tend to be sweeter.

00:46:40.000 They taste sort of like honey to me.

00:46:42.000 Really?

00:46:42.000 Yeah, they have a honey-like characteristic.

00:46:44.000 What's a good name for one if someone wants to try one of those?

00:46:47.000 Sadamo.

00:46:48.000 Any Sadamo?

00:46:49.000 Any spell that how?

00:46:49.000 S-I-D-A-M-O. So any Sadamo, no particular name is necessary?

00:46:54.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:46:55.000 There's different ones.

00:46:56.000 The names that you get besides Sadamo will often be, or even Yergeshev, will often be the specific name of a washing station where they wash the coffee itself.

00:47:08.000 And so you can get geeky about that.

00:47:11.000 But Sadamo is...

00:47:12.000 In what way?

00:47:12.000 Well, people develop favorite...

00:47:15.000 Favorite washing spots?

00:47:16.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:47:17.000 And what's the variables in the washing process?

00:47:19.000 Changes the way the flavor is?

00:47:21.000 Yeah.

00:47:21.000 So, yeah.

00:47:23.000 And then I noticed, I listened to a podcast you did recently that had a nutritionist and you were talking about washing, washed coffee being important.

00:47:32.000 Yes.

00:47:32.000 And I thought I could explain that process to you if you want me to.

00:47:36.000 Yes, please.

00:47:36.000 Okay.

00:47:37.000 So it's all about how the, I told you that coffee beans are like two seeds inside of a cherry.

00:47:44.000 Right.

00:47:44.000 And you got to get that fruit off because if you don't get the fruit off, it can mold and spoil and taste yucky.

00:47:53.000 So the whole challenge with coffee is to do something with that fruit layer before it spoils.

00:48:00.000 Okay.

00:48:01.000 Any kind of fruit, you pick it and then...

00:48:04.000 You either do...

00:48:05.000 What the ancient Ethiopians did is they just picked it and they set it on the ground or on a mat to dry.

00:48:13.000 The coffee would shrivel up, turn into a raisin.

00:48:18.000 Once it was totally dry, they'd pound it in a mortar and pestle and the seeds would separate from the dried up husk and then you could roast the seeds and drink the coffee.

00:48:31.000 So that was the original method of doing coffee.

00:48:34.000 But when they moved coffee from Ethiopia, which is very warm and dry, and they could grow it in Indonesia and in Central America, and it would grow fine, but when they tried to dry it, it was tougher because there's more rain there,

00:48:49.000 it's more humid, and the coffee would mold and get musty and taste crappy.

00:48:54.000 So in Costa Rica, they invented a different thing.

00:48:58.000 And what they did was they ran it through a machine that would strip off the leathery skin.

00:49:05.000 Husk.

00:49:05.000 Yeah.

00:49:06.000 Well, the leathery skin.

00:49:07.000 But it would leave this slimy fruit, you know.

00:49:10.000 And it's sort of like, you know, if you eat a peach and some of the...

00:49:13.000 Right.

00:49:14.000 It sticks to the seed.

00:49:15.000 And that's exactly what happens to coffee.

00:49:18.000 The sticky, fruity stuff is sticking to the seed.

00:49:22.000 And you've got to get it off.

00:49:23.000 So what they did was they let it ferment for about a day.

00:49:27.000 And if you let that stuff ferment in a bucket or whatever, a tub, for about a day, then it loosens itself through magic.

00:49:37.000 It's amazing.

00:49:40.000 Bacterial action and yeasts and stuff act on that stuff to dissolve it.

00:49:45.000 And then you can wash it away with water.

00:49:46.000 It just rinses right off.

00:49:47.000 That's wet processing. 0.91

00:49:48.000 That's wet processing. 0.91

00:49:49.000 And then, once that sticky, slimy, sugary stuff is rinsed away, then it's very easy to dry the coffee in the sun.

00:49:58.000 It dries in a few days.

00:50:00.000 And then you can husk it and send it for roasting.

00:50:03.000 So there's a difference between drying it out and then roasting it.

00:50:08.000 It must be dried out first and then it must be roasted later.

00:50:11.000 Right.

00:50:12.000 And those two processes, those two major processes, we call them either dry processing and wet processing or the natural method and the washed method.

00:50:24.000 So washed and wet processing are the same thing.

00:50:27.000 And dried and natural is the same thing.

00:50:31.000 So in a certain way, changing climates and moving coffee plants to other geographic locations presented a lot of pretty unique challenges.

00:50:41.000 Absolutely.

00:50:42.000 For coffee.

00:50:43.000 Which they were doing in the 19th century.

00:50:44.000 Seems so different than anything else, which is also a fruit that you would grow.

00:50:48.000 I mean, you would just take it when it's ripe and you eat it when it's ripe.

00:50:50.000 Yeah.

00:50:50.000 But this seems like a really complicated thing that they had to figure out.

00:50:52.000 Well, it's because we're eating the seeds, too.

00:50:54.000 I mean, unlike most fruits, most fruits aren't cultivated for their seeds.

00:50:58.000 Is there outside of the seed?

00:51:01.000 Isn't the extract, like the outside, doesn't have some sort of nutritional benefit?

00:51:04.000 Sure.

00:51:04.000 Well, I mean, it's a fruit.

00:51:06.000 It's got sugar and it's got...

00:51:08.000 What does it taste like?

00:51:09.000 It tastes like...

00:51:10.000 I always say it's like a mixture of watermelon and jasmine.

00:51:16.000 Really?

00:51:17.000 Yeah, it's beautiful.

00:51:18.000 It sounds delicious.

00:51:19.000 Oh, it's delicious.

00:51:19.000 It's totally delicious.

00:51:20.000 How come you can't just buy coffee fruit?

00:51:22.000 Well, you can.

00:51:24.000 The problem is that coffee doesn't really grow around here.

00:51:28.000 Right.

00:51:29.000 So by the time they got it to you, it'd be spoiled.

00:51:32.000 Here's a few things for you, and I should have brought some for you.

00:51:35.000 Some places, they keep the fruit that they husk off and they dry that too.

00:51:40.000 And you can make sort of like a beverage out of that by soaking that beverage in water, treating it like tea.

00:51:47.000 And they do that in Ethiopia and in Yemen.

00:51:49.000 They call it Hashara in Yemen.

00:51:51.000 They call it Kishar in, I mean, Hashara in Ethiopia, Kishar in Yemen.

00:51:56.000 And so it's another beverage that comes from coffee and it's sweet.

00:52:00.000 It's got plenty of caffeine.

00:52:03.000 Really?

00:52:03.000 Yeah.

00:52:05.000 Why isn't that more popular?

00:52:06.000 It seems like that would be more popular.

00:52:07.000 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:52:08.000 You would think that that would be...

00:52:09.000 Maybe that's a new thing.

00:52:10.000 It's kind of, yeah.

00:52:11.000 How do you say it?

00:52:12.000 What do you call it again?

00:52:12.000 Well, a lot of places that sell it here call it Cascara.

00:52:16.000 C-A-S-C-A-R-A. That's the Spanish word for it.

00:52:19.000 Cascara.

00:52:20.000 Now, is that something that Starbucks could start selling?

00:52:22.000 They could, yeah.

00:52:23.000 Why don't they do that?

00:52:23.000 That's a good question.

00:52:24.000 What the fuck's wrong with you, Starbucks? 0.99

00:52:25.000 Get on the ball. 1.00

00:52:26.000 Don't you bitches like money? 1.00

00:52:27.000 But there's other coffee companies sell it. 0.99

00:52:30.000 Do they?

00:52:30.000 Yeah, it's not satisfying in the same way that coffee is.

00:52:34.000 It's kind of an oddity.

00:52:36.000 You'll try it.

00:52:37.000 Yeah, I certainly will.

00:52:37.000 Yeah, you tell me what you think.

00:52:38.000 That sounds interesting.

00:52:39.000 Cascada.

00:52:40.000 Okay, I've got to remember that.

00:52:41.000 Now, the actual bean itself, is there more caffeine in the fruity outer layer, or is there more caffeine in the bean itself?

00:52:50.000 I don't know the answer to that.

00:52:51.000 Okay.

00:52:52.000 Do it varies?

00:52:53.000 Yeah, and there's coffee.

00:52:55.000 That's true, it varies.

00:52:56.000 And there's caffeine in all parts of the coffee plant.

00:53:01.000 Oh, so the leaves, everything.

00:53:02.000 Yeah, it's there.

00:53:03.000 What does coffee plant even look like?

00:53:04.000 I don't even know what it looks like.

00:53:05.000 It's about, well, it depends on the variety of coffee, but generally they're about six or eight feet tall.

00:53:12.000 It's a bush, yeah. 0.99

00:53:12.000 All I know about that is now that I'm realizing it, it's fucking Juan Valdez, man. 0.99

00:53:16.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:53:16.000 Juan Valdez, the only reason why I know... 0.99

00:53:18.000 They did a great job.

00:53:18.000 They did.

00:53:19.000 They really got you attached to that burrow.

00:53:21.000 Yeah.

00:53:21.000 And him with his coffee beans.

00:53:22.000 Absolutely.

00:53:23.000 Yeah.

00:53:23.000 How odd.

00:53:25.000 Yeah.

00:53:25.000 Now, is there a variation in the caffeine content of beans from one part of the world to the other?

00:53:31.000 Because I've seen something called...

00:53:35.000 Kicking horse?

00:53:36.000 Is that what it's called?

00:53:36.000 Kicking horse coffee?

00:53:37.000 It claims to have an excessive amount of caffeine in it?

00:53:41.000 Yeah.

00:53:42.000 Well, I don't know that brand.

00:53:43.000 But what they might be talking about is there's another species of coffee.

00:53:47.000 So the species that we've been talking about from Ethiopia and all that stuff is called Caffea arabica is the name of that species.

00:53:55.000 Ah, okay.

00:53:56.000 Yeah.

00:53:57.000 So there's another species that comes from the western part of Africa.

00:54:00.000 Yeah.

00:54:01.000 And it's called cafeic conifera, but we call it robusta.

00:54:05.000 Have you ever heard of robusta?

00:54:06.000 Yes.

00:54:07.000 Okay.

00:54:07.000 So, robusta comes from West Africa.

00:54:09.000 It doesn't taste as good, generally.

00:54:14.000 In my experience, it tastes sort of like burnt popcorn.

00:54:17.000 You know, cheap diner coffee has that burnt popcorn kind of taste to it?

00:54:21.000 Yes.

00:54:21.000 That's from the Robusta in it.

00:54:23.000 Oh.

00:54:24.000 Burnt popcorn.

00:54:25.000 Yeah, or rubber.

00:54:27.000 Yeah, Star Diner in White Plains, New York.

00:54:29.000 Yeah, totally. 1.00

00:54:29.000 I used to eat at this fucking place. 1.00

00:54:31.000 Their coffee was just always like burnt popcorn. 1.00

00:54:33.000 I never even thought of that.

00:54:34.000 Right. 1.00

00:54:35.000 But it tasted like shit. 1.00

00:54:36.000 Yeah, so that's the Robusta in it. 0.99

00:54:38.000 Now, Robusta has a lot more caffeine than Arabica does.

00:54:43.000 No kidding.

00:54:44.000 But it also has a bunch of other chemicals that don't taste very good.

00:54:48.000 Ah, so that's why it's got such a jolt to it.

00:54:50.000 Right. 1.00

00:54:50.000 It tastes like shit. 1.00

00:54:52.000 So some people, I've seen people talk about high caffeine coffee and they're just using Robusta in it to sort of amp up the caffeine level. 1.00

00:55:04.000 What is that thing floating around?

00:55:06.000 That's the scoop.

00:55:07.000 I didn't take it off.

00:55:07.000 Oh, how dare you, Jamie.

00:55:09.000 We're drinking plastic soup here.

00:55:12.000 But, you know, I mean, obviously caffeine is an important part of the whole coffee deal.

00:55:18.000 Without it, let's be honest, this is a drug.

00:55:20.000 Without it, the ride wouldn't be nearly as long.

00:55:25.000 It's true.

00:55:26.000 But after that, once you've satisfied the caffeine part...

00:55:32.000 You start drinking coffee for what it tastes like.

00:55:35.000 And so people that are focused on coffee flavor tend to de-emphasize the jolt part and Emphasize the flavor part.

00:55:48.000 Why does the plant produce caffeine in the first place?

00:55:52.000 Do we know that?

00:55:54.000 Yeah, it's called an alkaloid, is the class of chemical that caffeine is.

00:56:02.000 In general, plants...

00:56:04.000 They seem to produce alkaloids to drive away...

00:56:09.000 Predation?

00:56:10.000 Yeah, like insects and stuff like that. 0.99

00:56:12.000 Okay, so the insects eat the coffee, they'll have a fucking heart attack, and they'll fall out of the sky. 0.69

00:56:17.000 Yeah, it's toxic to insects at a micro level. 0.98

00:56:20.000 And animals, a lot of animals as well, right?

00:56:22.000 Yeah.

00:56:23.000 From what I understand, that's the reason why dogs don't like chocolate.

00:56:26.000 Well, you shouldn't feed your dog chocolate.

00:56:27.000 It's another alkaloid called theobromine.

00:56:30.000 Oh.

00:56:32.000 So theobromine chocolate has, and it's very similar to caffeine, it'll make your heart I talked to a veterinarian about this once.

00:56:42.000 The problem with dogs is they eat a bunch of chocolate and their heart pounds so fast they have a heart attack from the theobromine.

00:56:53.000 It's like caffeine.

00:56:55.000 People say that chocolate has caffeine.

00:56:58.000 The active thing is actually theobromine.

00:57:02.000 It's an alkaloid.

00:57:03.000 It's very similar.

00:57:04.000 It's a stimulant that works on dogs in a different way than it works on humans?

00:57:08.000 Yeah, dogs are more susceptible to it.

00:57:10.000 That's fascinating because in humans it actually has some weird representation of love, right?

00:57:16.000 It gives a very similar...

00:57:17.000 That's what they say, yeah.

00:57:17.000 Yeah.

00:57:18.000 Which kind of makes sense, right?

00:57:19.000 They give chocolate to people you love?

00:57:21.000 Yeah.

00:57:22.000 That's what they say, yeah.

00:57:23.000 I mean, I myself, if I eat too much chocolate, my heart pounds.

00:57:28.000 I can feel it.

00:57:28.000 Really?

00:57:29.000 Much more than that. 0.96

00:57:30.000 Well, you're a hairy dude. 0.91

00:57:30.000 You're probably much more animal-like. 0.91

00:57:32.000 That's, yeah.

00:57:33.000 There was a recent article that I was reading today online about chocolate, that chocolate is going to be extremely rare in the future because of our overconsumption of chocolate.

00:57:45.000 We consume so much chocolate they can't keep up with the production.

00:57:48.000 The demand can't keep up with the production.

00:57:50.000 And they've got a similar problem that coffee does.

00:57:54.000 A genetic problem.

00:57:56.000 A genetic problem.

00:58:00.000 Okay, so chocolate is indigenous to South America.

00:58:06.000 Like, coffee is indigenous to Africa.

00:58:09.000 Cacao is from Latin America.

00:58:13.000 But then it's been spread all over the world, has a narrow genetic base.

00:58:18.000 I mean, all these tropical crops have these problems.

00:58:22.000 The other problem is climate change.

00:58:25.000 You know, as the climate...

00:58:27.000 It gets warmer.

00:58:29.000 The suitable kind of environment for these very climate, very temperature intolerant plants Narrows.

00:58:41.000 Diseases spread more easily, et cetera, et cetera.

00:58:45.000 It's a problem.

00:58:45.000 That is very interesting.

00:58:47.000 So you said that coffee can't be grown in the United States?

00:58:50.000 Well, it can.

00:58:51.000 Mainly Hawaii is in the United States.

00:58:53.000 Right.

00:58:53.000 In Hawaii.

00:58:55.000 There is also one farm here in California.

00:58:57.000 Really?

00:58:58.000 Up in Santa Barbara.

00:58:58.000 It's not far.

00:58:59.000 You could drive here.

00:59:00.000 In Santa Barbara?

00:59:00.000 Yeah.

00:59:01.000 How's their coffee?

00:59:02.000 Delicious.

00:59:02.000 Really?

00:59:03.000 Yeah.

00:59:03.000 But he only planted this farm a few years ago.

00:59:05.000 No shit. 0.99

00:59:06.000 Yeah, it's called Goodland Organics. 1.00

00:59:08.000 So he's the only guy in America that's growing coffee in the lower 48?

00:59:11.000 Yep.

00:59:12.000 And it's because he's in a very unique kind of microclimate there.

00:59:15.000 There's actually, if you go to his farm, it can be warmer at night on this farm than it is during the day because of the weird...

00:59:21.000 Way that the weather works around there.

00:59:23.000 Santa Barbara's paradise.

00:59:24.000 It is.

00:59:24.000 It's beautiful.

00:59:25.000 It's an amazing spot.

00:59:26.000 In this place, you should go to this farm.

00:59:28.000 I will.

00:59:28.000 You really should.

00:59:28.000 He also grows amazing fruits like these crazy Australian limes called finger limes that look like caviar inside.

00:59:38.000 Cherimoyas.

00:59:38.000 Have you ever heard of cherimoyas?

00:59:40.000 They're a very rare tropical fruit.

00:59:42.000 No, never heard of that.

00:59:43.000 He grows all these insane fruits.

00:59:45.000 Wow.

00:59:45.000 What's the name of his place?

00:59:47.000 Goodland Organics.

00:59:49.000 That's pretty cool that he's the guy that figures out how to grow coffee in California.

00:59:54.000 Avocados he has there.

00:59:55.000 There's a lot of avocados in Santa Barbara, right?

00:59:57.000 Right.

00:59:57.000 So he got this avocado.

00:59:59.000 He's a guy from here.

01:00:01.000 I think he came from here in L.A. And he got into agriculture and he bought this farm that was an avocado farm.

01:00:08.000 But then he started planting dragon fruit, these finger limes, cherimoyas, all this stuff.

01:00:15.000 And he grows coffee there.

01:00:18.000 He's just a really good fruit grower.

01:00:21.000 He grew this coffee.

01:00:25.000 He was telling me recently, he's planted the right varieties of coffee, including this one, the mocha variety that has these little tiny beans.

01:00:35.000 He's got that growing there, etc.

01:00:37.000 It's just now coming into fruit.

01:00:40.000 One of the interesting things about coffee is you plant a coffee seed.

01:00:43.000 You don't start to harvest coffee From between three and seven years after you planted.

01:00:48.000 Wow.

01:00:49.000 So he's just now starting to reap the rewards of all these years and years of taking care of these plants.

01:00:54.000 That is fascinating.

01:00:55.000 Dude, you should grow coffee.

01:00:57.000 You love it so much.

01:00:58.000 I love it.

01:00:59.000 Why are you not involved in growing it?

01:01:01.000 Well, yeah.

01:01:02.000 You need to get yourself a spot in Santa Barbara, a small patch of land in Santa Barbara, and let the party begin.

01:01:08.000 I would love it.

01:01:09.000 I've always traveled too much to be at a farm.

01:01:13.000 So, I mean, I've spent the last...

01:01:16.000 15 or so years just traveling to coffee farms all over the world, working with coffee farmers to get their quality better and kind of learn about all this stuff.

01:01:26.000 Because that's kind of a new phenomenon too, is coffee roasting companies that are interacting more directly with farmers and getting the quality thing really worked out, understanding.

01:01:40.000 What makes coffee great, etc.

01:01:42.000 So most farmers that are growing coffee, are they doing it just for a profit?

01:01:47.000 Are there places where you go and they're real artisans?

01:01:50.000 Is there a broad variation?

01:01:53.000 It's mostly the first thing.

01:01:55.000 Mostly artisans?

01:01:56.000 No, no, no.

01:01:56.000 Mostly businesses.

01:01:58.000 Well, it's mostly small farmers struggling to get by.

01:02:02.000 Right.

01:02:03.000 So, going back to the history, so the Dutch, you know, they planted their thing in Java, and they basically enslaved the local population to work on their coffee farms. 0.95

01:02:13.000 This is in the, you know, in the 18th century...

01:02:17.000 All the European powers were trying to get colonies everywhere.

01:02:22.000 The Spanish doing their colonies in Central America.

01:02:25.000 The French doing their colonies in West Africa.

01:02:29.000 The English were trying to colonize Kenya. 0.90

01:02:33.000 The Dutch were colonized East India.

01:02:37.000 And they kind of enslaved the local population to grow coffee.

01:02:40.000 Wow.

01:02:47.000 World history, and unfortunately, coffee was part of that.

01:02:51.000 But since then, so then, you know, the Enlightenment happened, democracies started to spread around the world, but still many of these countries that were former colonies had poverty problems, like Central America and stuff like that.

01:03:08.000 The place that I first started working with coffee farmers was in Nicaragua.

01:03:12.000 And in Nicaragua was formerly a colony, you know, and had that problem.

01:03:17.000 But then they had the revolution.

01:03:19.000 They dissolved a lot of these big farms and gave little parcels of land to a lot of people that used to work on the farm.

01:03:29.000 So here you have all these people that used to work on a farm that now have their little tiny farm of their own.

01:03:37.000 Yeah.

01:03:50.000 And so, in many parts of the world, you've got small farmers that are just trying to get by, you know, and put food on their plates.

01:03:57.000 And so, one of the great things that special coffee companies can do is get engaged with those farmers and try to celebrate the product, get people to pay more for it, because it tastes really delicious, and it becomes a better livelihood for farmers all across the world.

01:04:19.000 So your friend in Santa Barbara, what was his name again that owns this place?

01:04:23.000 Jay Ruski is his name.

01:04:24.000 And what's the name of the place again?

01:04:25.000 Goodland Organics.

01:04:26.000 And so he's just a guy who loves coffee and decides, I'm going to try to grow some stuff in Santa Barbara.

01:04:31.000 He loves growing, he loves agriculture is what it is.

01:04:33.000 Just loves growing things.

01:04:34.000 And he thought it was a challenge to grow coffee, I think.

01:04:36.000 I think he loves coffee too, but I think really he loved the fact that it was a challenge.

01:04:40.000 He likes these unusual fruits.

01:04:42.000 So it kind of takes a person with sort of a deep commitment to make something like this take place.

01:04:48.000 Otherwise, it's a pretty significant investment in time and effort before you reap any rewards.

01:04:53.000 And there are those people too in coffee.

01:04:55.000 I mean, even in El Salvador, in Guatemala, in Panama, in Brazil.

01:05:02.000 I know of amazing farmers in all these places who are like...

01:05:08.000 We're good to go.

01:05:29.000 Coffee is kind of an unusual, I mean, Hawaii is kind of an unusual situation because the University of Hawaii is involved and they can actually call up the University of Hawaii and get some advice from them.

01:05:37.000 So they wouldn't need you?

01:05:38.000 They wouldn't need me in Hawaii.

01:05:39.000 Okay, so where would they need you?

01:05:40.000 South America?

01:05:40.000 Yeah, in these places.

01:05:42.000 I'm a dude in Peru.

01:05:43.000 I'm tired of getting busted for cocaine.

01:05:46.000 Yeah, in Peru.

01:05:47.000 I've done a lot of work in Peru and Bolivia.

01:05:50.000 And not just me.

01:05:51.000 I mean, there's lots of people out there.

01:05:55.000 And in fact, the US government through USAID is out there trying to give good support to these guys.

01:06:03.000 The first thing you do is you teach them to taste coffee.

01:06:06.000 And amazingly, and some of your listeners may have had this experience, I've had this experience.

01:06:12.000 You go to wherever, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Peru, or whatever, a place that's famous for its coffee, and you go into the hotel and they've got Nescafe and the instant coffee in the restaurant or whatever.

01:06:25.000 And it's because in a lot of these places, people don't drink the coffee.

01:06:30.000 They grow the coffee, but they don't drink it.

01:06:33.000 And it's crazy.

01:06:33.000 That's so weird.

01:06:34.000 Totally weird.

01:06:35.000 How's that happen?

01:06:36.000 Because it's more valuable to export.

01:06:38.000 Ah, so they don't drink it just because it's not worth it.

01:06:41.000 And it's like not part of the culture.

01:06:42.000 That's interesting.

01:06:43.000 It's not part of the culture, yet it is.

01:06:46.000 It is.

01:06:46.000 It's part of the agricultural culture, but it's not part of the consumption culture.

01:06:51.000 Wow.

01:06:51.000 It's weird.

01:06:52.000 Okay.

01:06:53.000 Ethiopia is the only place... 0.99

01:06:55.000 And Brazil, to some extent, where they drink coffee as much as they export it.

01:07:02.000 And Brazil has the same issue the rest of South America, where they have very limited genetics.

01:07:06.000 Is that the same thing?

01:07:07.000 Yeah, it's slightly different because Brazil is so much bigger.

01:07:10.000 Right.

01:07:11.000 So they have more than one variety from Brazil?

01:07:13.000 Yeah, in general.

01:07:15.000 And all these countries, by the way, are aware of this problem and are trying to diversify their genetics.

01:07:20.000 So do they contact you through the coffee website?

01:07:23.000 Is that how they go to Specialty Coffee Association of America?

01:07:29.000 Starting in 2000 or so, we and our group that we're affiliated with called the Coffee Quality Institute, Had this program called Coffee Corps.

01:07:45.000 It's sort of like the Peace Corps for coffee people.

01:07:46.000 And guys like me would sign up and volunteer for two weeks to serve in a coffee farming community.

01:07:54.000 And if we had a skill, we might have marketing skill or accounting or tasting.

01:08:01.000 My skill was tasting.

01:08:03.000 So I would go down and I would teach a coffee cooperative in California.

01:08:08.000 El Salvador.

01:08:09.000 Do you speak Spanish?

01:08:10.000 Yes.

01:08:10.000 Oh, okay.

01:08:11.000 How to taste their own coffee and taste it like we do.

01:08:15.000 Look for things like sweetness and flavor and aroma and stuff like that.

01:08:19.000 And just that is extremely powerful because if you're running a coffee farm and you know how to taste it like your buyer is going to taste it, then you can say, all right, this tastes better.

01:08:30.000 I'm going to do this.

01:08:32.000 I'm going to grow it better.

01:08:33.000 This way, I'm going to dry it this way, I'm going to ferment it this way, etc.

01:08:37.000 Now, when you say grow it this way, what are the variables involved in changing the flavor of coffee?

01:08:42.000 Is it just climate, or is it the soil content, or is it something you add to the soil, the way you water them?

01:08:48.000 What do you do?

01:08:48.000 Well, the biggest thing is the climate, and a lot of that is determined by altitude.

01:08:53.000 So remember Mrs. Owen, on Folgers, what was the lady?

01:08:58.000 I don't know.

01:08:58.000 Anyway, on the commercial, she used to say mountain-grown Folgers.

01:09:01.000 Ah, that's right.

01:09:02.000 Yeah, and that's because coffee likes to be at high altitudes.

01:09:06.000 So, in general, the higher the altitude the farm is, the better the coffee.

01:09:11.000 But a farmer has no control over the altitude of their farm.

01:09:14.000 But what they control is how much shade the coffee gets.

01:09:20.000 So they plant trees next to the coffee to actually provide some shade for it.

01:09:25.000 Really? 0.99

01:09:26.000 So they have coffee and they're like oak trees or some shit? 0.99

01:09:28.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:09:29.000 Usually they're different.

01:09:31.000 They're like Latin American, indigenous.

01:09:33.000 Something that large leaves, shady.

01:09:36.000 Yeah.

01:09:37.000 And...

01:09:38.000 And sometimes it's a fruit tree, so they can get fruit.

01:09:41.000 As well.

01:09:42.000 Yeah, or avocados.

01:09:43.000 Jay uses avocados in Santa Barbara for this purpose.

01:09:47.000 Wow, okay.

01:09:47.000 So he grows his avocado trees and then sandwiches them in between?

01:09:51.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:09:52.000 So the deal is...

01:09:55.000 The coffee, now a shaded coffee, so coffee evolved under other trees.

01:10:00.000 It's called an understory shrub.

01:10:01.000 It naturally likes to be protected by other trees.

01:10:05.000 However, if you take it out and put it in the full sun, it'll be more productive.

01:10:09.000 It'll produce a lot more coffee, but in general, that coffee won't be as good.

01:10:13.000 So a farmer has to, like, figure out the benefit, you know, if he puts it in a shade, the coffee will taste better, but it won't be as productive.

01:10:24.000 So he has to sort of balance.

01:10:26.000 And that's what happens in coffee.

01:10:28.000 All the time, you know, it's like the better you make it taste, the less there is of it kind of thing.

01:10:34.000 And so a farmer is always trying to make that balancing act between having his farm be more productive versus having the quality be higher.

01:10:43.000 What is the ultimate taste expression?

01:10:45.000 What is the move to forget about no money involved, no financial reward?

01:10:50.000 You're only trying to achieve the greatest taste ever.

01:10:53.000 What's the way to do that?

01:10:55.000 Start with a variety of coffee that's known for being really good tasting.

01:11:01.000 So there's these different varieties of coffee that we talked about.

01:11:04.000 Some of them taste really good.

01:11:06.000 Some of them maybe are more disease resistant and don't taste as good because of that.

01:11:11.000 So you choose a good variety to start with.

01:11:15.000 The disease-resistant coffees don't taste as good?

01:11:18.000 Yeah.

01:11:18.000 That's interesting.

01:11:19.000 And what diseases specifically are they getting?

01:11:21.000 There's a disease, and you may have heard about it in the news.

01:11:24.000 It's actually a big deal right now.

01:11:25.000 It's called coffee rust, and it's a fungal disease.

01:11:29.000 It makes the coffee leaves get this powder on them that looks exactly like rust.

01:11:34.000 Hmm.

01:11:35.000 Makes all the leaves fall off in the coffee plant.

01:11:38.000 So is it similar to what's going on?

01:11:41.000 What is that disease that was hitting?

01:11:44.000 Oh no, that's the bark beetle.

01:11:45.000 I was thinking of a bug.

01:11:46.000 But it's like that in that these crops can be susceptible, particularly if there's a narrow genetic disease.

01:11:54.000 Like we were talking about.

01:11:55.000 I see.

01:11:57.000 Where's this coffee rust?

01:11:58.000 Is it all over the world?

01:12:01.000 Yeah, it's all over the world, except it doesn't occur really in Ethiopia.

01:12:07.000 So there's some sort of natural control happening in Ethiopia. 0.52

01:12:11.000 That seems to be the motherland. 0.97

01:12:13.000 So if you're a real coffee dork, you're going, all due respect. 0.98

01:12:16.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.98

01:12:17.000 I mean that in a good way.

01:12:18.000 I get it.

01:12:19.000 If you're a real coffee, Kanazua, Ethiopia is the spot.

01:12:22.000 That's right.

01:12:22.000 That's where you want to get your coffee.

01:12:23.000 For the strongest flavors, the widest variety of flavor, and because it's the OG. I think so, you know.

01:12:29.000 But then, you know, not to qualify that too much, I mean, there's amazing coffees from Central America.

01:12:37.000 Columbia is some of the most incredible coffees.

01:12:40.000 Very different.

01:12:41.000 And there's crazy diversity, yeah.

01:12:42.000 And Hawaii, like I said, I really enjoy coffee from Hawaii.

01:12:45.000 It just seems to me to have a very different taste.

01:12:48.000 It does.

01:12:49.000 What causes that?

01:12:50.000 Is it the volcanic ground?

01:12:51.000 It can be.

01:12:53.000 And then coffees within Hawaii, too, can taste very different.

01:12:57.000 Right.

01:12:57.000 There's a...

01:12:58.000 This is a Maui coffee.

01:12:59.000 Yeah.

01:13:00.000 I usually like the Kona coffees.

01:13:01.000 Yeah.

01:13:02.000 Kona is the most well-known area.

01:13:04.000 It's on the Big Island.

01:13:07.000 And then it's got altitude.

01:13:08.000 Once you go up that mountain, that's the biggest challenge in...

01:13:12.000 In Hawaii, I used to know some people that managed a coffee farm in Molokai, which is a smaller island, not as much altitude.

01:13:18.000 The coffee wasn't as good.

01:13:21.000 That's interesting.

01:13:21.000 Yeah.

01:13:22.000 There's a place in Hawaii on the big island called Mountain Thunder.

01:13:26.000 Have you ever heard of this thing?

01:13:27.000 No.

01:13:28.000 Great, great coffee.

01:13:29.000 Mountain Thunder from the big island.

01:13:31.000 Mountain Thunder from the big island.

01:13:32.000 Really delicious.

01:13:32.000 I'll get in there.

01:13:33.000 Yeah.

01:13:34.000 But anyway...

01:13:36.000 But in general, coffees from islands like Hawaii, Jamaica, places like this, they've got kind of a unique characteristic.

01:13:46.000 You might like coffee from Indonesia or from Papua New Guinea.

01:13:51.000 And this stuff has four stars.

01:13:52.000 Yeah.

01:13:54.000 Indonesia and Papua New Guinea. 0.99

01:13:55.000 You know, I really enjoy coffee, but until this conversation, I was a fool. 1.00

01:14:00.000 I was an ignorant fool. 1.00

01:14:02.000 I knew nothing. 1.00

01:14:03.000 I relied on too many unscrupulous people to fill my head with useless information.

01:14:07.000 This is what we do.

01:14:09.000 Coffee people, this is what we do.

01:14:10.000 We get dialed into what people like and show them other options if they want.

01:14:16.000 So to continue what I was asking you before, say if someone contacted you from, let's say, somewhere in South America, and they wanted you to go over there and, hey, we need to fix our flavor profile, what would you do besides planting trees?

01:14:30.000 So step one is start tasting the coffee themselves.

01:14:32.000 Okay.

01:14:33.000 And how can you change that taste?

01:14:36.000 Well, okay, so you can either shade the coffee or not.

01:14:40.000 One easy way that a farmer can change the quality of their coffee is how ripe it gets.

01:14:46.000 So as coffee gets riper, it gets sweeter, obviously, but you don't want it to be too sweet or else it'll get like overly sweet and also it'll get this kind of rotten character.

01:14:57.000 So figuring out, dialing in, there was a farmer I worked with in El Salvador.

01:15:01.000 Um, uh, who like got super focused on how ripe she was going to pick her coffee. 0.59

01:15:08.000 And she wound up figuring out, this is geeky and amazing, is that if she let, um, the coffee get, half of the coffee get ripe to where it was the color of blood, uh, or I'm sorry, of wine, uh,

01:15:23.000 Right?

01:15:24.000 Like burgundy kind of color.

01:15:26.000 And then half of the coffee cherries get to where they were the color of blood.

01:15:30.000 Like bright red like this.

01:15:32.000 And blend those together.

01:15:33.000 It was the perfect flavor. 1.00

01:15:35.000 Wow, what a dork. 1.00

01:15:36.000 And she dialed in. 1.00

01:15:37.000 But she's famous.

01:15:39.000 Her name's Aida Batye.

01:15:42.000 They did a piece on her in The New Yorker a couple years ago because she's become the rock star in the coffee world. 0.80

01:15:49.000 That's so fascinating to me. 1.00

01:15:51.000 Like I said when you sat down, I love people that are really into shit. 0.99

01:15:55.000 When someone gets really into something, as you are in a coffee, it's very infectious. 0.99

01:15:59.000 Like, you know, I want to, like, start trying all these different flavors now. 0.98

01:16:03.000 But I don't want to be hopped up out of my fucking mind on caffeine all day. 0.88

01:16:06.000 Well, you don't have to drink that much, either. 0.99

01:16:07.000 I mean, it's like, you know? 0.99

01:16:09.000 I've already drank five cups of this shit. 1.00

01:16:10.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

01:16:12.000 Space it out a little bit.

01:16:13.000 But it's really good.

01:16:14.000 But if you go to a coffee shop all the time, they can blow your mind with a different flavor all the time.

01:16:18.000 Now, how do you feel about a place like a chain, like a big chain?

01:16:23.000 We don't even have to mention any names.

01:16:24.000 But one of those big chains that sells sort of generic coffee.

01:16:29.000 You're talking about Starbucks?

01:16:30.000 I am talking about Starbucks. 0.99

01:16:32.000 Does that make you sad when you see that these fucking things are popping up all over the place? 0.99

01:16:36.000 Well, let me tell you a story. 0.99

01:16:37.000 So I started in coffee in San Diego.

01:16:40.000 I was running a coffee shop.

01:16:42.000 I started in 87, right?

01:16:43.000 So I was a barista in the early 90s and stuff.

01:16:46.000 And in 1994, we're running this coffee shop in San Diego, and we got word that Starbucks was going to start opening stores in San Diego.

01:16:53.000 And everybody freaked out, like, oh my god, we're done, we might as well, you know, they're going to drive us into the ground.

01:16:59.000 The year that Starbucks showed up was the busiest year that we had, and every year after that it got busier.

01:17:10.000 So the great thing that Starbucks has done, and Starbucks is, you know, they started in the 70s in Seattle, a bunch of guys that really liked coffee, and they just figured out how to grow this business.

01:17:26.000 In many ways, they taught the world how to drink coffee.

01:17:29.000 They taught the world to drink coffee in many ways.

01:17:31.000 When I was a kid, we used to drink coffee in the morning before I would go to work.

01:17:36.000 Guys would go to Dunkin' Donuts.

01:17:38.000 I was working on construction job sites.

01:17:40.000 Guys would go to Dunkin' Donuts and bring back coffees for everybody.

01:17:43.000 But...

01:17:44.000 There was no, like, going to a coffee shop and buying a coffee in the middle of the day.

01:17:48.000 Right.

01:17:48.000 That sort of Starbucks shifted people's mentality.

01:17:52.000 Yeah.

01:17:53.000 Well, it shifted their behavior, too.

01:17:55.000 Yeah.

01:17:55.000 Like, Brian, like, he's, oh, the guy was here earlier.

01:17:58.000 He's always got a fucking venti coffee in his hand. 0.99

01:18:00.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:18:01.000 No matter where he goes, he's got a Starbucks in his hand.

01:18:02.000 That's right.

01:18:03.000 And so, and so, and that's important, you know.

01:18:06.000 So, they've, you know, they've grown and gotten very ubiquitous and stuff.

01:18:11.000 They've got shops all over the place.

01:18:13.000 But it's not that delicious.

01:18:16.000 It's not the best stuff.

01:18:18.000 Well, I mean...

01:18:19.000 I know you're trying to be nice.

01:18:20.000 I don't want to accuse anybody of anything.

01:18:22.000 But, okay, let me put it this way in a very nice way.

01:18:25.000 Instead of saying something negative about them, which I use all the time, by the way.

01:18:28.000 I'm not a Starbucks hater.

01:18:30.000 I buy Starbucks all the time.

01:18:31.000 I have no problem with it.

01:18:32.000 And if you were going to look for a very specific, very gourmet type of coffee, that's not where you would go.

01:18:44.000 Not a bad cup of coffee.

01:18:46.000 Right.

01:18:46.000 Not a bad cup of coffee, but if you want to go really...

01:18:48.000 You want to have some of this stuff and have it this way.

01:18:51.000 Right.

01:18:51.000 I wouldn't go to a Starbucks store because that's not what they're doing.

01:18:53.000 They're bringing coffee to the people.

01:18:55.000 Yes.

01:18:55.000 They're bringing a Pike's Peak and maybe a dark roast and that's it.

01:18:58.000 And I will say, though, that I've tasted...

01:19:00.000 I've been to Starbucks where they've got access to awesome coffees.

01:19:06.000 And they do have that.

01:19:07.000 They do do that.

01:19:08.000 It's not in every store.

01:19:09.000 Right, right, right.

01:19:11.000 Well, they have the Clovers now.

01:19:12.000 Right.

01:19:12.000 Yeah, they've got the Clovers.

01:19:14.000 I've never seen one in a Starbucks.

01:19:16.000 Yeah, they've got them in special stores.

01:19:18.000 And that's another thing that they're doing.

01:19:20.000 They're starting to...

01:19:21.000 You may have seen it in the news.

01:19:23.000 They're designing different stores that do different things.

01:19:26.000 And they're...

01:19:29.000 They're a specialty coffee company that's doing their thing.

01:19:33.000 And they do have a wide variety when you buy the bags.

01:19:36.000 They've got limited small lot stuff that they do.

01:19:40.000 How should you store coffee?

01:19:41.000 We put it in the freezer.

01:19:42.000 Is that bad?

01:19:44.000 It depends.

01:19:45.000 It can be bad.

01:19:47.000 Can be bad?

01:19:47.000 It can be bad if your freezer stinks and you don't seal the bag up well enough.

01:19:52.000 No, we don't have stinky freezers.

01:19:53.000 Then you're good.

01:19:54.000 We don't ever put anything in there but coffee.

01:19:56.000 Yeah.

01:19:56.000 The other problem is, right now, we took the coffee out and it got it to room temperature.

01:20:03.000 If you take a coffee mug that's in the freezer out and you put it on your thing, it gets all wet on the outside, then you've got that problem.

01:20:11.000 In general, we generally encourage people not to put it in the freezer and just drink it fast.

01:20:18.000 Okay.

01:20:18.000 But I will say that if I was in Alaska or something and I could only get a shipment of coffee once every six months, I would freeze it.

01:20:26.000 Ah, okay.

01:20:27.000 But I don't.

01:20:28.000 It's not ideal.

01:20:28.000 I don't.

01:20:29.000 Okay.

01:20:29.000 Yeah, it's not ideal.

01:20:30.000 So you should essentially, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you should essentially do it almost like you buy vegetables.

01:20:35.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:20:36.000 I always say like you buy bread.

01:20:38.000 So you should get it and between the time that it's dried and between the time that it's roasted and then you drink it, how much time should take place?

01:20:46.000 Between the time it's roasted and the time you drink it?

01:20:48.000 So the drying, it's essentially, it's good for how long?

01:20:51.000 Once it's dried?

01:20:52.000 Once it's dried in Nicaragua or whatever.

01:20:55.000 Then it's usually good for about a year.

01:20:58.000 A year?

01:20:58.000 Okay.

01:20:59.000 And that's good because it's about once a year, you know, coffee harvest happens once in a year.

01:21:05.000 They dry it all, they get it together, they stabilize it by drying, and then they ship it.

01:21:10.000 To roasters in the U.S. Okay, so assuming you're in the correct window, then once you get it to a roaster, how long after it's roasted should you drink it, or should you brew it, and does it matter how it's stored then?

01:21:23.000 Usually the window after roasting is about two weeks.

01:21:26.000 Two weeks only?

01:21:27.000 Yeah.

01:21:27.000 That's it?

01:21:27.000 Yeah, like bread.

01:21:29.000 Wow.

01:21:30.000 That's crazy.

01:21:31.000 So you really should roast to order.

01:21:33.000 Yeah.

01:21:34.000 And so that's why a good coffee roasting company will- So we have some old coffee.

01:21:40.000 We should just throw it away.

01:21:41.000 Yeah.

01:21:41.000 There's no point.

01:21:42.000 Just get some new coffee.

01:21:44.000 But like this one, it says when it was roasted right there.

01:21:48.000 Can I see that?

01:21:49.000 Yeah.

01:21:50.000 Thank you.

01:21:50.000 So that's a- That's a good sign when a roaster cares enough to put the roasting date on there.

01:21:57.000 This shit was roasted just a couple of days ago. 1.00

01:21:59.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:21:59.000 That's how you do it, huh? 1.00

01:22:01.000 Yeah.

01:22:01.000 And this is from Wrecking Ball?

01:22:02.000 Wrecking Ball.

01:22:03.000 And where's this company at?

01:22:04.000 In San Francisco.

01:22:05.000 San Francisco's awesome.

01:22:06.000 Yeah.

01:22:07.000 Of course, they would have something like this there.

01:22:08.000 Yeah.

01:22:08.000 And it's kind of a cool company, too.

01:22:12.000 The...

01:22:13.000 A couple owns this company.

01:22:15.000 She's kind of a legendary roaster. 1.00

01:22:17.000 She's been roasting coffee for a long time.

01:22:19.000 And he is a pretty famous barista guy.

01:22:25.000 And they got together and they're kind of a power couple in coffee.

01:22:29.000 That sounds amazing.

01:22:30.000 Yeah, they're cool.

01:22:31.000 Wrecking ball coffee.

01:22:31.000 All right, I'm going to buy some of this.

01:22:33.000 You can buy it online?

01:22:33.000 You can buy it online.

01:22:34.000 Is there a website online?

01:22:35.000 And so when you buy it online, do they roast it when you order it?

01:22:38.000 A good coffee company will do that. 0.63

01:22:41.000 They'll sort of collect the orders and then do a roasting day and send it all out.

01:22:45.000 Lots of times you get it the day after it was My friend has a coffee company called Caveman Coffee, and when you order it from cavemancoffee.com or whatever the fuck it is, they roast it as you order it.

01:22:55.000 That's cool.

01:22:56.000 That's the only way to do it, right?

01:22:57.000 That's very cool.

01:22:57.000 And they should probably start including roasted on dates, huh?

01:23:00.000 They don't have roasted on dates, but that shit sounds like it's important. 0.99

01:23:03.000 Sure. 0.99

01:23:04.000 Or light it on the back or something.

01:23:06.000 I was making a decision about what coffee to bring you today.

01:23:10.000 That made a difference.

01:23:11.000 Dude, you knocked it out of the park because this is a unique flavor and it's different.

01:23:17.000 It's unique and in a weird, unexpected way.

01:23:21.000 I really, really like it.

01:23:22.000 I love the smell of it too, man.

01:23:24.000 What does the beans smell like?

01:23:25.000 Do they have a unique smell too?

01:23:27.000 Yeah, you should get a little bit of a whiff of that...

01:23:30.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:23:31.000 That's amazing.

01:23:32.000 Of that lemony jasmine kind of thing. 1.00

01:23:33.000 Dude, why don't they make incense out of this shit? 1.00

01:23:35.000 I know, right? 1.00

01:23:35.000 It smells so good. 1.00

01:23:37.000 You know, I used to, one time I had to work with an airline to try to get their coffee tasting better.

01:23:42.000 How dare they?

01:23:43.000 How did you do that?

01:23:44.000 Well, I didn't.

01:23:45.000 It wasn't that successful.

01:23:46.000 In this particular case, it wasn't that successful.

01:23:49.000 But what all the flight attendants were doing is they were taking the coffee bags and they were putting it in the bathroom to make it smell a little bit better in there.

01:23:56.000 That was the best thing that they could do with this.

01:23:58.000 Oh, so they just used it as coffee potpourri?

01:24:01.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:24:02.000 That's interesting.

01:24:03.000 Well, that's kind of a good move because when you smell, even if it's crap coffee, you know, when you smell the grinds, it smells good.

01:24:10.000 You could open up a Folgers and... 0.99

01:24:11.000 Not that Folgers is crap, but, you know, you get that smell of non-roasted coffee. 0.98

01:24:17.000 It's delicious. 0.99

01:24:17.000 It's like... 0.99

01:24:19.000 People, human beings like the smell of brown things, you know? 1.00

01:24:22.000 Have you noticed that?

01:24:23.000 Not all brown things sound, you know what I'm saying? 0.75

01:24:25.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:26.000 Flush it! 1.00

01:24:27.000 But, like, you know, toast.

01:24:29.000 Yes.

01:24:29.000 One of the greatest smells ever.

01:24:31.000 Meat.

01:24:31.000 A steak.

01:24:31.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:32.000 That's true.

01:24:32.000 Good point.

01:24:33.000 Bread, baking.

01:24:35.000 Mm-hmm.

01:24:35.000 All these things.

01:24:36.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:36.000 Chocolate.

01:24:37.000 We love things that are cooked a little bit, right?

01:24:39.000 Yeah, this brown... 0.99

01:24:41.000 They call them browning reactions in science, you know?

01:24:44.000 Right.

01:24:44.000 And when heat turns food brown, it tastes good.

01:24:48.000 It certainly does.

01:24:49.000 It's a fascinating thing.

01:24:51.000 Like, try eating a piece of raw steak.

01:24:53.000 Yeah.

01:24:53.000 It really doesn't have the best flavor to it.

01:24:56.000 But God damn, when it's got that crust on the outside of it and you cut through it and you... 0.97

01:25:00.000 Delicious. 0.99

01:25:02.000 Yeah, I am a fan of tastes and flavors, and I think it's sort of an unsung art form that people have figured out how to cultivate different tastes and flavors in all sorts of foods.

01:25:13.000 In cooking, I became a big fan of cooking.

01:25:16.000 I don't really cook very well, but I became a big fan of the art form of cooking very well when I started watching Anthony Bourdain's No Reservation show.

01:25:24.000 And then becoming friends with him and getting to know him and talking to him about chefs and going to a restaurant with him, which was one of the coolest fucking experiences of all time.

01:25:32.000 That's amazing. 0.84

01:25:32.000 That's like playing basketball with Michael Jordan or something. 0.84

01:25:37.000 You're hanging out at a restaurant with Anthony Bourdain.

01:25:38.000 Yeah, totally.

01:25:39.000 But I developed a respect for the art form from him, from watching his show, the art form of cooking.

01:25:47.000 And I started considering it in a different light.

01:25:49.000 Instead of thinking like, oh, it's nice when people cook good food.

01:25:52.000 Oh, that tastes good.

01:25:53.000 I want to eat there.

01:25:54.000 Instead, I started thinking of it as art, as artwork.

01:25:57.000 No different than a song, no different than a...

01:25:59.000 A stand-up comedy sketch or a cup of coffee.

01:26:03.000 The art and the creative, literally creative, because you're creating.

01:26:09.000 I mean, you're growing and you're influencing the actual finished product.

01:26:14.000 It's sort of an overlooked aspect of creativity, isn't it?

01:26:18.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:26:18.000 It totally is.

01:26:21.000 It's nice to hear you talking like that because guys in coffee, if we start to talk about how we think of coffee as an art form, A lot of times people are like, ah, come on. 0.97

01:26:31.000 People are always looking to call bullshit, man. 0.98

01:26:33.000 People call bullshit too much. 0.99

01:26:35.000 It's true. 1.00

01:26:35.000 It's a good thing to call bullshit because there's a lot of bullshit out there. 1.00

01:26:38.000 But it's not a good thing to call bullshit about people's passions. 0.99

01:26:41.000 I think it's more interesting to observe those passions and try to find out what it is.

01:26:45.000 And if I looked at it on a surface level and I wasn't really into flavors and I didn't have that...

01:26:54.000 I probably wouldn't think about it that much either.

01:26:57.000 But when I sit down and talk to a guy like you, who obviously has dedicated an incredible amount of time to this passion, then that's when it becomes infectious and you kind of understand it.

01:27:06.000 Yeah, it's true.

01:27:08.000 And that's the way I and a lot of my colleagues think about it, is how can we make the flavor just kind of stop people in their tracks?

01:27:17.000 How can we use coffee?

01:27:18.000 And so for me, I kind of mentioned this before, when you're a coffee person, when you're a barista, you're interacting with people at this really delicate point in their day.

01:27:30.000 They don't know what's going on.

01:27:31.000 They're coming to your coffee bar.

01:27:33.000 They...

01:27:35.000 You're usually the first person they've seen other than their wife or whatever.

01:27:39.000 And they're not sure what kind of day they're having.

01:27:43.000 And then if you give them something that sort of tastes really good and makes them feel good, it's like a great thing.

01:27:49.000 And if you do that for people a lot, you feel like you're doing something positive for the world.

01:27:56.000 So I always get really focused on these things.

01:27:59.000 You certainly do.

01:28:00.000 I think that anytime you can inspire someone, too, you can inspire someone with your passion for something.

01:28:07.000 I'm constantly inspired by things that I don't want to have anything to do with.

01:28:12.000 There's people that inspire me.

01:28:15.000 I watched that movie, Jiro Dreams of Sushi.

01:28:18.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:28:18.000 I don't want to make sushi.

01:28:20.000 But you want to eat at Jira's place.

01:28:22.000 Yes, I certainly do.

01:28:23.000 I was literally thinking about flying to Japan and booking a reservation.

01:28:28.000 I was going to try to see if I could call David Lee Roth, who lives in Japan.

01:28:32.000 David Lee Roth lives in Japan? 0.99

01:28:34.000 Fuck yeah, he does. 1.00

01:28:35.000 David Lee Roth lives in Japan and practices sword fighting all day. 1.00

01:28:38.000 Fuck. 1.00

01:28:38.000 David Lee Roth is one of the greatest bad motherfuckers to ever walk the face of the planet. 1.00

01:28:43.000 Guy walks around in overhauls, gives zero fucks. 0.99

01:28:46.000 He's in his 60s and is just still doing new things and challenging himself. 1.00

01:28:53.000 He lives in fucking Japan in Tokyo with his dog. 0.98

01:28:57.000 He has an apartment. 1.00

01:28:59.000 He's fucking David Lee Roth, man. 1.00

01:29:01.000 He's David Lee Roth and he's got an apartment like a normal person with a dog in Tokyo. 0.99

01:29:06.000 He's incredible.

01:29:08.000 Well, if you do that, if you go to Japan to eat some...

01:29:10.000 There he is.

01:29:11.000 There's Dave and us.

01:29:12.000 He's such a cool guy, we allowed him to wear sunglasses indoors. 0.87

01:29:15.000 I didn't shit on him while we were taking that photo.

01:29:18.000 That's an old school thing. 0.95

01:29:19.000 That's awesome.

01:29:20.000 Those old school rock stars, they still wear sunglasses indoors and we let them get away with it.

01:29:26.000 If you do that, if you go visit Jiro, let me know and I'll send you some coffee places that are sort of the equivalent of that.

01:29:33.000 Ah, in Japan?

01:29:34.000 In Japan.

01:29:35.000 Really?

01:29:35.000 So, these coffee guys...

01:29:37.000 So, in many ways, Japan...

01:29:40.000 There's a concept in Japanese called kodawari.

01:29:43.000 And that is like practice, practice, practice until you're the best in the world.

01:29:48.000 And keep practicing and keep getting it wrong, but you're going to get better all the time.

01:29:52.000 You know, and it's evident in martial arts.

01:29:54.000 It's evident in Jiro Dreams of Sushi, right?

01:29:57.000 So he's like focused.

01:29:58.000 Was that what they were calling each other?

01:29:59.000 Was that the phrase?

01:30:00.000 They used this phrase, kodawari, yeah.

01:30:02.000 Yeah.

01:30:02.000 And this exists for coffee, too.

01:30:05.000 This idea of getting it perfect.

01:30:08.000 Wow.

01:30:08.000 There's this one coffee place I went to last time I was in Japan that would blow your mind.

01:30:13.000 It's this guy that's like super...

01:30:14.000 He has this coffee equipment.

01:30:16.000 I walked in.

01:30:18.000 My wife... 0.95

01:30:21.000 She actually found out about this place from a Japanese friend of hers.

01:30:25.000 We walk into this place and he's got all this crazy equipment.

01:30:28.000 Like, you'd like it.

01:30:30.000 It's like weirdly excessive coffee equipment.

01:30:35.000 I'm saying, what is going on?

01:30:36.000 And also in this place, this guy has stereo equipment.

01:30:39.000 These giant speakers.

01:30:43.000 He's playing like perfect, and this incredible turntable and all this stuff, playing like perfect classical music.

01:30:50.000 And his goal is to serve you the perfect coffee while you're listening to the perfect music.

01:30:57.000 And it's like a crazy library.

01:30:59.000 And this guy takes five minutes to make you a cup of coffee.

01:31:02.000 Whoa.

01:31:04.000 Why so long?

01:31:05.000 Well, he's getting it right.

01:31:08.000 He's nailing it.

01:31:09.000 He'll throw stuff away if it's not perfect.

01:31:11.000 And how will he know if it's perfect?

01:31:13.000 Well, it's like Jiro, man.

01:31:14.000 It's like he's just trying to get to the ultimate coffee experience.

01:31:18.000 There's another guy named Katsu.

01:31:21.000 He's got a place called Bear Pond Espresso.

01:31:24.000 And he learned about coffee in New York.

01:31:26.000 And so he's trying to bring the New York City coffee experience to central Tokyo.

01:31:32.000 And he's got this little place.

01:31:36.000 He shows up to his shop like an hour and a half before they open.

01:31:39.000 He spends that hour and a half making his coffee taste right.

01:31:42.000 And he'll taste it, throw it away, adjust, taste it again.

01:31:46.000 And if it's not right, he doesn't open.

01:31:48.000 There he is.

01:31:49.000 Yeah, that's Katsu, man. 1.00

01:31:51.000 God damn. 0.99

01:31:52.000 That place is awesome. 0.99

01:31:54.000 And that's in Tokyo?

01:31:55.000 That guy is a badass.

01:31:56.000 He sounds like a badass.

01:31:57.000 He is a coffee badass.

01:31:58.000 I want to meet that dude.

01:31:59.000 And him and his wife, that's all.

01:32:01.000 It's a tiny little place.

01:32:03.000 You go in there...

01:32:06.000 If it's not open, it's because he's trying to get the coffee right.

01:32:09.000 And you just wait.

01:32:11.000 And then you go in there and he makes you awesome coffee.

01:32:13.000 Did you go there?

01:32:13.000 Oh, yeah.

01:32:14.000 Did you fly there just to drink coffee?

01:32:15.000 No, but I was there for it.

01:32:16.000 But I definitely make a trip.

01:32:18.000 Every time I'm in Tokyo, I go to visit Katsu. 0.74

01:32:20.000 He's the man.

01:32:21.000 So he rides around in a motorcycle and makes coffee?

01:32:23.000 I've never seen that before.

01:32:24.000 That's his spot.

01:32:24.000 Oh, yeah, that's his place.

01:32:25.000 He just jumped off a motorcycle.

01:32:26.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:32:27.000 Wow.

01:32:28.000 Yeah, he's a badass.

01:32:29.000 Now, are there places like that here in Los Angeles?

01:32:31.000 Where'd you find that, man?

01:32:32.000 It's on Vimeo.

01:32:33.000 There's a whole, like, three-minute documentary about it.

01:32:35.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:32:36.000 Say the name of the documentary so folks can watch it if they want to.

01:32:39.000 I think it's just Bear Pond Espresso.

01:32:41.000 Bear Pond Espresso.

01:32:42.000 Are there spots like that in Los Angeles?

01:32:46.000 Are there really exceptionally good coffee spots?

01:32:48.000 Yeah, so the place I actually bought that for you here locally in a shop in Culver City called Cognoscenti, C-O-G-N-O-S-C-E-N-T-I. Cognoscenti.

01:33:01.000 Cognoscenti, yeah.

01:33:01.000 Yeah, Cognoscenti, which means those in the know.

01:33:03.000 There you go.

01:33:04.000 Yeah, there's a queue that's a pool queue.

01:33:07.000 I play pool.

01:33:08.000 Oh, okay.

01:33:08.000 And there's a pool queue called the Cognoscenti by my friend Joe Gold.

01:33:11.000 There it is.

01:33:11.000 He designed this.

01:33:13.000 Joe Gold, I know that name.

01:33:14.000 Well, it's a very common name.

01:33:15.000 Yeah, okay.

01:33:16.000 He lives in Chicago.

01:33:18.000 Okay.

01:33:18.000 One of the best pool queue manufacturers, or artists, I should say, in the world.

01:33:22.000 Cool.

01:33:23.000 Yeah.

01:33:23.000 Call it Cognoscenti.

01:33:24.000 Yeah, and he had them designed based on—he hired these engineers to figure out what was the exact perfect taper and the right combinations of woods.

01:33:36.000 Like, mostly he uses ebony.

01:33:37.000 He used all kinds of different woods, but most of the time he uses ebony.

01:33:39.000 With a maple shaft and, you know, certain dried aged wood because the wood has to be dry.

01:33:46.000 There can't be any water in the wood or it'll move as it dries and changes.

01:33:49.000 So they have to cut the wood down.

01:33:51.000 It starts out in a big block and you slowly cut it down over long periods of time until it becomes a dowel that you can make a cue with.

01:33:57.000 Because you have to allow for the wood to move as it dries out.

01:34:00.000 That's like a guitar maker.

01:34:00.000 Very, very similar.

01:34:01.000 And there's a big difference amongst pool players in woods and how they perform on a table.

01:34:07.000 Like they have a different, like a maple forearm of the cue.

01:34:12.000 There's a joint in most cues.

01:34:13.000 And then the shaft is almost always maple.

01:34:16.000 Got it.

01:34:16.000 But the maple forearm will be very different than a cocobolo forearm.

01:34:19.000 Ah.

01:34:19.000 It's like a springiness thing?

01:34:21.000 Yes.

01:34:22.000 Yes.

01:34:22.000 Maple is a little bit more gentle and forgiving, and a cocoa bowl is a little more dense.

01:34:26.000 Then ebony is denser still.

01:34:27.000 Wow.

01:34:28.000 Ebony also is heavier, so it has a more forward balance to it.

01:34:31.000 The middle of the cue will hold a lot of weight.

01:34:33.000 So sometimes people who prefer a maple cue will go with a steel joint.

01:34:37.000 So the steel in the middle sort of acts as like a pendulum because the weight is forward on the cue.

01:34:42.000 That's crazy.

01:34:43.000 The balance of the cue is very important, but it's also an artisan thing.

01:34:46.000 It's like...

01:34:47.000 Yeah.

01:34:47.000 It's just like this coffee thing in a lot of ways.

01:34:49.000 The people that are really into it are really into it.

01:34:52.000 The guys who make pool cues, they're artists, man.

01:34:56.000 Especially guys like Joe Gold do it on a very high-end level.

01:35:00.000 They're making a functional piece of art that's very beautiful to look at as well.

01:35:04.000 Yeah, this is Joe's work here.

01:35:06.000 These are really super fancy ones where you're seeing the inlays in the bottom.

01:35:12.000 I don't know whether he's going to have a wrap on these or what.

01:35:15.000 Sometimes they make them with no wrap, meaning no leather around the handle.

01:35:19.000 Some people prefer leather around the handle.

01:35:21.000 There's a whole art to that, too.

01:35:23.000 That's crazy.

01:35:23.000 Yeah, I'm unbelievably fascinated by that as well.

01:35:25.000 But like I said, I'm into anything.

01:35:27.000 Like guitar makers, I don't play guitar, but I watch a documentary on how a guy makes a guitar.

01:35:31.000 I watched a whole documentary on a Mongolian bow maker last night.

01:35:36.000 A guy was making traditional Mongolian bows, like recurve bows, and a guy's doing it out of all these different woods and using...

01:35:43.000 Animal horns and sinew and glue that they make from fish.

01:35:49.000 I'd so much rather pay my money for something that is handmade and somebody put their soul into it.

01:35:56.000 It does.

01:35:57.000 It means something.

01:35:58.000 It turns a normal artifact into something really special.

01:36:01.000 Yeah, it's functional and you also get a feeling from using that thing.

01:36:06.000 Whether it is a handmade knife that you're chopping up food with in your kitchen, you know that somewhere in Brooklyn a guy works in a shop and cuts that metal and polishes it down and sharpens it up and then sends it to you and you're receiving a labor of love.

01:36:22.000 That's true.

01:36:23.000 Yeah, you're receiving the fruits of someone's creativity.

01:36:26.000 There's something about handmade stuff like that.

01:36:29.000 Well, something about us, human beings, that we really appreciate other people's effort and work.

01:36:34.000 That's why you want to have someone's artwork on your wall.

01:36:36.000 You know, what's why you want to, like, a piece of furniture that someone made is, like, something uniquely satisfying instead of, like, something at Ikea that's just, like, some form...

01:36:46.000 Block thing that's made in a factory and spit out.

01:36:50.000 But if you could buy a couch that some guy actually carved the wood and put the cushions in place and embroidered it all, oh my god, that couch would be amazing.

01:37:02.000 You're excited about it when you sit in it.

01:37:04.000 You're sitting in someone's work.

01:37:05.000 Totally.

01:37:06.000 So anyway, Yikai's place is Cognaceni.

01:37:09.000 Yikai, he's a guy who's an architect but got turned on to coffee.

01:37:13.000 And this is in Culver City, is that what you say?

01:37:15.000 In Culver City, yeah.

01:37:15.000 So Cognaceni Coffee.

01:37:17.000 Yeah, there you go.

01:37:17.000 Okay, there you go.

01:37:18.000 And then another great place in L.A. that I like a lot is called G&B Coffee.

01:37:24.000 These guys, Charles Babinski and Kyle Glanville, got together, and they're the GNB, and they put together a coffee program.

01:37:35.000 Amazing.

01:37:35.000 Downtown LA, their shop is.

01:37:38.000 And Charles...

01:37:41.000 Is the current reigning...

01:37:43.000 Okay, do you know we have champions?

01:37:47.000 Like barista champions?

01:37:49.000 We've got a contest and everything.

01:37:50.000 Baristas have champions?

01:37:50.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:51.000 What do they do, like CrossFit?

01:37:53.000 No, it's like a coffee contest.

01:37:55.000 Has anybody ever baristed until they died? 0.64

01:37:57.000 What's that?

01:37:57.000 Has anybody ever baristed until they died?

01:37:59.000 Like John Henry just like dropped from...

01:38:01.000 Yeah, well, like, you know, they have contests to see if people can do things for 24 hours a day.

01:38:05.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like an endurance thing?

01:38:07.000 Yeah, if they ever have a barista till you drop.

01:38:08.000 Not that I know of.

01:38:09.000 No, they shouldn't do that.

01:38:10.000 No.

01:38:10.000 Because people will wind up dying.

01:38:12.000 They would die. 1.00

01:38:12.000 People are crazy. 1.00

01:38:13.000 We need to limit the amount of competition that people are actually allowed to involve in. 0.86

01:38:16.000 That's true.

01:38:17.000 So this is the coffee...

01:38:18.000 The coffee competitions that we do, and there's a barista thing where they're making espresso.

01:38:25.000 There's a brewer's thing where they're brewing coffee.

01:38:28.000 There's a taster's thing where they're competing on how well they can taste coffee and discern the differences between coffee and stuff like that.

01:38:35.000 So there is a coffee version of the sommelier.

01:38:38.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:38:39.000 So if you drank this, you would know this is from Ethiopia.

01:38:41.000 If you didn't drink this, if you drank this, And you called yourself a coffee pro and you weren't able to identify as Yerga Chef.

01:38:50.000 That would be a major...

01:38:52.000 You'd be a faker.

01:38:53.000 Well, kind of.

01:38:54.000 Yeah.

01:38:55.000 I mean, this is one of the classic origins of coffee that you need to be able to identify.

01:38:59.000 What could you get confused by?

01:39:01.000 Like, if you were really worried, like if you had to bet your mortgage on whether or not you could nail one, what would be a tricky one?

01:39:07.000 The differences between what coffees?

01:39:09.000 Well, in Central America, they get really...

01:39:11.000 Because, I mean, think about that Central American isthmus there, you know, El Salvador, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, they're all right next to each other. 0.93

01:39:20.000 And as you said...

01:39:21.000 It's almost like the same country.

01:39:22.000 Very similar genetics.

01:39:23.000 Very similar, right.

01:39:23.000 So those coffees taste very similar.

01:39:25.000 But, like, a coffee from another great coffee-growing area is right in the middle of Kenya.

01:39:32.000 And Kenya is right just south of Ethiopia, but the coffee tastes completely different.

01:39:38.000 Huh.

01:39:38.000 Yeah.

01:39:39.000 And so there's a city called...

01:39:42.000 Okay, just as Yergeshev is special in Ethiopia, a place called Nyeri, N-Y-E-R-I in Kenya, is really special.

01:39:53.000 And the coffee there tastes like blackberries.

01:39:58.000 You know, this is like lemons.

01:40:00.000 There it tastes like blackberries or blackcurrants.

01:40:03.000 Really beautiful.

01:40:04.000 And savory like meat.

01:40:05.000 Now what would happen if you took that stuff though?

01:40:08.000 Like you took some plants from that area and then moved them to Hawaii?

01:40:12.000 That's a great question.

01:40:13.000 You should get into the coffee business.

01:40:15.000 You're asking the right questions.

01:40:17.000 In general, we don't have very many examples of that because only recently have people started to move coffee around.

01:40:24.000 But I tasted once a coffee from a farm in El Salvador that had Kenyan coffees from this place in Neri planted on it.

01:40:36.000 And at the time, I didn't know anything, but I was tasting this coffee, and I accused the guy that was working in my lab with me of making a mistake.

01:40:44.000 It tastes like Kenyan coffee.

01:40:47.000 So it's the varieties that have grown to these places that in many ways determine these flavors.

01:40:55.000 There's also a farm in Panama that was kind of accidentally planted with some coffees from Ethiopia, and the coffee tastes like Ethiopian coffee.

01:41:05.000 Really?

01:41:06.000 So is there a similarity in the climate?

01:41:10.000 Yeah, if the climate's the same and the coffee variety is the same, because remember all these thousands of varieties that exist in the world, you know, in Yergeshev, they grow three different varieties there.

01:41:22.000 If you go to Yergeshef and ask a farmer what varieties of coffee he's growing, he's got a choice of three.

01:41:28.000 And they're different from anywhere else in the world.

01:41:31.000 They look different.

01:41:32.000 You can see that they're different.

01:41:33.000 Right, like those little tiny ones that we...

01:41:35.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:41:36.000 Is it called Peaberry?

01:41:37.000 Is that what it's called?

01:41:39.000 Mocha.

01:41:40.000 Yeah, Mocha is the variety.

01:41:41.000 So M-O-K-K-A. This came from Yemen somehow. 1.00

01:41:45.000 And made it to Hawaii, and they plant it in Hawaii.

01:41:47.000 And that's Rusty's Hawaiian, by the way.

01:41:49.000 And it's really delicious and really tiny.

01:41:51.000 They're like little...

01:41:52.000 They're like...

01:41:52.000 Yeah, seeds almost.

01:41:54.000 Yeah, like BBs.

01:41:55.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:41:55.000 That's a good way to describe it, BBs.

01:41:57.000 Yeah.

01:41:58.000 So how often do you travel around the world helping people define the flavors of their coffees?

01:42:05.000 Well, now I have a kid, so I don't do it as much anymore.

01:42:07.000 But there was a decade there where I would travel one year, 200 days in a year.

01:42:13.000 I was working with farms.

01:42:15.000 Just buzzed out of your mind doing coffee?

01:42:17.000 Yeah.

01:42:18.000 Yeah, tasting it more than...

01:42:19.000 A lot of times, by the way, when we're tasting coffee, we'll spit it out. 0.99

01:42:22.000 So you don't get too fucked up? 0.99

01:42:24.000 Yeah, just taste it and spit it. 1.00

01:42:26.000 That's interesting.

01:42:27.000 Do you feel bad about spitting it out?

01:42:28.000 Sometimes.

01:42:29.000 Sometimes you don't.

01:42:30.000 If it's too delicious and you don't want to, you can just drink it.

01:42:34.000 Wow.

01:42:35.000 But yeah, there's a lot of...

01:42:38.000 I mean, it's not just me.

01:42:39.000 There's lots of people out there right now.

01:42:42.000 In fact, I was chatting with a guy in Kenya this morning.

01:42:46.000 Now, what can be done about the soil itself?

01:42:49.000 Is there composting that improves the health of the plant?

01:42:53.000 Great question.

01:42:54.000 Yeah, one of the issues with coffee is you take all this coffee out from a farm in wherever, Kenya, and you bring the coffee here, but you've got to be bringing stuff back to the soil all the time, and otherwise the soil will be depleted.

01:43:09.000 So getting nutrients back in the soil is really important.

01:43:12.000 Composting is a big deal.

01:43:13.000 It's good to have Access to manure, if you can, from cattle or chickens or whatever they put in.

01:43:21.000 It's a lot of work.

01:43:23.000 Is there a preferred type of manure that you use?

01:43:25.000 It depends on the soil. 0.99

01:43:26.000 Because I know people are really into chicken shit. 1.00

01:43:28.000 Yeah, chicken shit's great. 1.00

01:43:29.000 Because we have chickens, and people are asking us for our shit, and we're like, what? 1.00

01:43:33.000 It's like dynamite, that stuff. 0.99

01:43:36.000 It's weird. 1.00

01:43:37.000 People ask me for shit. 0.99

01:43:39.000 So what about like rotten vegetables and things along those lines? 1.00

01:43:43.000 Any good coffee farm will have a gigantic compost heap. 1.00

01:43:47.000 Okay.

01:43:47.000 That they have the coffee pulp and stuff like that from when they process the coffee plus manure, chicken manure, all sorts of stuff.

01:43:57.000 And this is all sort of leavened and piled up and then it's evenly distributed over the farm?

01:44:02.000 Exactly.

01:44:03.000 And then they have to carry it.

01:44:04.000 So farmers will put it in a bag on their back and walk up these mountains and put two or three kilograms of manure on each coffee plant.

01:44:17.000 Now, one coffee plant will produce about a pound of coffee in a year.

01:44:21.000 So this gives you an idea how much work it is.

01:44:24.000 That's insane.

01:44:25.000 It's crazy.

01:44:25.000 One coffee plant produces a full bag of coffee.

01:44:28.000 In one year.

01:44:29.000 In a year?

01:44:30.000 Yeah.

01:44:30.000 So why isn't coffee a million dollars?

01:44:31.000 That's a great question.

01:44:34.000 What would happen if coffee could be grown in the United States?

01:44:36.000 It is.

01:44:37.000 It probably would cost a million dollars.

01:44:38.000 And that's why, you know, that's why, you know, straight...

01:44:40.000 This was probably pretty expensive.

01:44:42.000 This straight Hawaiian coffee is probably...

01:44:45.000 Oh yeah, it was not cheap at all.

01:44:46.000 Yeah.

01:44:47.000 It's very expensive.

01:44:48.000 I think it's like...

01:44:49.000 Well, I forget.

01:44:49.000 I shouldn't say.

01:44:50.000 But anyway, it's a lot of money, and that's why.

01:44:52.000 It's because it's incredibly labor-intensive.

01:44:55.000 Yeah, that's amazing.

01:44:57.000 Now, the issue that they're having with a lot of farms is the depletion of the soil, correct?

01:45:04.000 Absolutely.

01:45:04.000 Minerally deficient soils, that's been an issue with farmers since the 1920s, right?

01:45:08.000 Absolutely.

01:45:09.000 When they first started realizing it.

01:45:10.000 Yeah.

01:45:12.000 And this is a big challenge for all agriculture, but coffee's no different.

01:45:16.000 How to maintain fertility in your soil?

01:45:19.000 Because it takes a lot of work, like a lot of labor, to get stuff back.

01:45:24.000 So, chemical fertilizer is another option.

01:45:28.000 For farmers that they use.

01:45:30.000 But that's a problem, too, because it takes energy to make...

01:45:33.000 They burn gas, basically, to make NPK fertilizer, which is chemical fertilizer.

01:45:38.000 So organic farms don't use that kind of fertilizer.

01:45:42.000 They make their own with compost.

01:45:44.000 But it's so much effort.

01:45:45.000 It's just a hugely expensive undertaking to do.

01:45:49.000 So it's a challenge.

01:45:49.000 It's one of the things that we face and we talk about a lot in coffee.

01:45:52.000 Is there a variation in the flavor of a plant that's been fertilized with a chemical fertilizer or a synthetic or whatever you call it as opposed to compost?

01:46:02.000 No.

01:46:02.000 As long as the plant is healthy, it's possible to make it healthy in both those ways.

01:46:08.000 So if the plant's healthy, it's going to make good coffee.

01:46:10.000 But it seems like a huge difference in the chemical process itself, right?

01:46:15.000 Yeah.

01:46:15.000 I mean, you obviously have to burn things in order to make...

01:46:18.000 Yeah.

01:46:19.000 And then there's a lot of middle ground, too.

01:46:23.000 I mean, I would say most good farmers, or many good farmers, use a little bit of synthetic fertilizer and a little bit of compost as well, and they kind of try to find a middle ground.

01:46:33.000 Sort of like multivitamins with a good diet.

01:46:35.000 That's exactly what it's like.

01:46:36.000 Using chemical fertilizer is the same as using vitamin supplements.

01:46:39.000 You ever heard of a guy named Dr. Joel Wallach?

01:46:42.000 No.

01:46:42.000 He's a doctor who wrote a book called Dead Doctors Don't Lie and it's all about minerally insufficient soils and about a real epidemic we have with minerally deficient diets.

01:46:54.000 I don't know how much of what he said is fuckery. 0.94

01:46:56.000 I need to really probably talk to someone. 0.95

01:46:58.000 I'll talk to Dr. Rhonda Patrick about it.

01:47:00.000 She's one of the guests that we have on the podcast.

01:47:03.000 An actual scientist.

01:47:05.000 Yeah, she really understands what she's talking about.

01:47:07.000 But this guy was talking about areas in the world where people lived to be much older and were healthier and had darker hair longer.

01:47:15.000 And that it was because they were getting something called glacial milk.

01:47:19.000 Which is the runoff water from glaciers that actually had a milky quality to it because it was so minerally rich.

01:47:27.000 Right.

01:47:29.000 Now, is there areas like that where they grow coffee?

01:47:31.000 It's minerally rich coffee?

01:47:33.000 A lot of people, like the legend, there's a lot of legends in coffee.

01:47:38.000 There's coffee legends.

01:47:38.000 Well, yeah, I mean about special areas that make special coffee.

01:47:41.000 Right.

01:47:41.000 And you mentioned earlier volcanic soils.

01:47:44.000 Yes.

01:47:44.000 Places that have volcanic soils.

01:47:46.000 The farmers, if their coffee is great, they will attribute it to all of these things.

01:47:51.000 But so far, there's not a lot of actual evidence to support any of that.

01:47:56.000 Yeah.

01:47:58.000 All it is is we know...

01:47:59.000 And we're discovering these things all the time.

01:48:01.000 It's like, what is the magic sort of mixture of the right variety, the right climate, the right kind of soil composition, the right kind of husbandry?

01:48:12.000 It's so many factors together.

01:48:13.000 I don't think it makes sense to isolate one thing.

01:48:17.000 Another thing that people always ask me is, if they're growing pine trees on the farm where they're growing coffee, can you taste the pine trees in the...

01:48:25.000 In the coffee itself?

01:48:29.000 And I'm pretty sure that there's no way that that, I mean, I've never experienced that, you know.

01:48:34.000 But people, these legends kind of come up around coffee.

01:48:38.000 And you do taste amazing things in coffee that are inexplicable.

01:48:43.000 Like, I mean, that coffee that we just drank, it definitely smells like lemons, right?

01:48:47.000 Yeah.

01:48:47.000 Well, it smells like a tea.

01:48:49.000 Yeah, like lemon tea, right?

01:48:51.000 And it tastes good even when it cools off.

01:48:52.000 Oh yeah, it tastes better.

01:48:53.000 I noticed that too.

01:48:54.000 Why is that?

01:48:54.000 It's just, it's, I don't know why.

01:48:57.000 Because that's not the case with a lot of coffee.

01:48:59.000 No, no, no.

01:48:59.000 That's right.

01:49:00.000 Why is that?

01:49:01.000 Well, coffee will continue to extract over time.

01:49:07.000 So while it's been sitting in this thing, it's continuing to extract.

01:49:12.000 It was maybe 18% when I plunged it, in terms of percentage of extraction.

01:49:16.000 And it keeps on going up as it sits.

01:49:18.000 And so it'll evolve in terms of flavor.

01:49:21.000 The other thing that changes is you.

01:49:26.000 There's this thing called habituation in tasting things.

01:49:32.000 I wasn't completely hip to this until a taste scientist did this demonstration for me.

01:49:39.000 He did it with wine.

01:49:40.000 He gave me a glass of this white wine from New Zealand.

01:49:47.000 And he had me taste it, and he said, you taste that green bell pepper note in this, you know?

01:49:53.000 And that's a thing that they say about wines from this area.

01:49:55.000 And I said, yeah, I can taste it.

01:49:56.000 And he says, okay.

01:49:56.000 And then he gave me a little bit of actual green bell pepper.

01:49:59.000 And he said, eat that.

01:50:01.000 And I did.

01:50:02.000 And then he said, okay, now taste the wine again.

01:50:04.000 And I tasted the wine again, and it tasted like a completely different wine.

01:50:08.000 And I said, what happened?

01:50:09.000 He said, okay, so that wine had this chemical in it, and he named the chemical, I don't remember what it was, but it was the green bell pepper chemical.

01:50:17.000 And then when he gave me the green bell pepper, it overwhelmed my senses with that same smell.

01:50:24.000 And so you know how if you use Windex in your house, you smell it for a while and you're overwhelmed by it, and then in a few minutes you can't smell it anymore?

01:50:32.000 It's not that it's gone away, it's just that your brain has sort of screened it out.

01:50:36.000 Well, olfactory senses depend on change in the smells.

01:50:40.000 Right, exactly.

01:50:40.000 And so once you get used to something, you can't smell it anymore.

01:50:43.000 Yes.

01:50:44.000 And so the same thing happens with coffee.

01:50:46.000 If you're drinking coffee and there's an overwhelming element, then your olfactory will screen it out and then you start tasting different things.

01:50:54.000 Ah.

01:50:55.000 So things change over time.

01:50:57.000 So smell certainly does enhance taste or change taste.

01:51:01.000 Yeah, in coffee especially, it's at least half of the thing.

01:51:06.000 It does in wine as well.

01:51:07.000 I find that a good wine, I like red wine, when I smell a good red wine, the smell of it actually makes it seem somewhat more delicious.

01:51:16.000 Yeah, well flavor...

01:51:17.000 The definition of flavor is the combination of aromatic and taste together.

01:51:23.000 So if you have a cold or something and you eliminate your aromatics, suddenly food doesn't taste right.

01:51:29.000 Nothing is right because you're only tasting sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and savory, which is what you can experience on your tongue.

01:51:36.000 But your nose is able to get thousands of things.

01:51:40.000 So there's this phenomenon that happens when you're tasting things.

01:51:44.000 And it's...

01:51:47.000 It's called retronasal.

01:51:50.000 This is weird, but you swallow something...

01:51:53.000 And then it coats your throat and the aromatics kind of go backwards up through your nose from your throat.

01:52:01.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:52:02.000 And that's called retronasal from the back of your nose.

01:52:07.000 And so you're actually smelling things at the same time that you're swallowing them.

01:52:11.000 That is fascinating.

01:52:12.000 Is there any restaurant in the Los Angeles area that gets the whole thing right?

01:52:17.000 Like great food, great wine, and great coffee.

01:52:22.000 That's a great question.

01:52:24.000 Why doesn't someone nail that?

01:52:25.000 Somebody should.

01:52:26.000 Somebody should have like coffee like this.

01:52:29.000 Yeah.

01:52:29.000 Like the perfect cup of coffee.

01:52:32.000 Roasted March 4th.

01:52:33.000 Right, right, right.

01:52:33.000 So it was roasted a week ago.

01:52:35.000 What's today's date?

01:52:36.000 What's the official date right now?

01:52:37.000 It's the 17th?

01:52:38.000 What is it?

01:52:39.000 10th?

01:52:39.000 It's the 10th?

01:52:40.000 Yeah.

01:52:40.000 So 6th, 6th, 17th.

01:52:42.000 I don't know what day it is.

01:52:43.000 Yeah.

01:52:43.000 How about that?

01:52:44.000 Fucking seven days off. 0.99

01:52:46.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:52:46.000 I knew it was one of those Mondays. 0.99

01:52:49.000 So six days ago, it's really recently roasted.

01:52:52.000 That would be an amazing thing for someone to pull off in a restaurant.

01:52:55.000 Have like really delicious wines that go with really delicious food and have...

01:52:59.000 The same effort put into the coffees.

01:53:01.000 Yeah.

01:53:01.000 A few restaurants are starting to really work on it.

01:53:03.000 Really?

01:53:04.000 Yeah.

01:53:04.000 And what do they do?

01:53:05.000 None that I know of in L.A. None?

01:53:07.000 How dare you, L.A.? Yeah.

01:53:09.000 I'm sure there might be.

01:53:10.000 I just haven't been there yet.

01:53:11.000 San Francisco must.

01:53:12.000 San Francisco has a couple.

01:53:14.000 There was one in Baltimore, of all places.

01:53:17.000 Really?

01:53:17.000 That did an amazing job.

01:53:19.000 Is it still open?

01:53:20.000 Oh, Woodbury Kitchen, yeah.

01:53:20.000 It's still a great coffee service, amazing coffee service.

01:53:23.000 Amazing coffee service and amazing food as well?

01:53:25.000 And amazing.

01:53:26.000 I mean, this guy named Spike does this.

01:53:29.000 I mean, he is amazing, this dude.

01:53:31.000 Well, I'm going to get that number from you because I'm going there in a couple of weeks.

01:53:34.000 In Baltimore.

01:53:34.000 Oh, you have to eat at Woodbury Kitchen.

01:53:36.000 It's great.

01:53:36.000 All right, I'm going.

01:53:37.000 Yeah.

01:53:38.000 Done.

01:53:38.000 Yeah.

01:53:38.000 How about that?

01:53:39.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:39.000 Wow.

01:53:41.000 Awesome.

01:53:41.000 What else can we talk about when it comes to coffee?

01:53:44.000 Is there anything that we missed?

01:53:45.000 No, I mean...

01:53:48.000 No, I don't know.

01:53:48.000 I mean, some of the things that people always want to know is about decaf.

01:53:56.000 Yes, that was another thing I wanted to know.

01:53:57.000 I'm glad you brought that up.

01:53:59.000 I forgot.

01:53:59.000 Well, I mean, it's the thing.

01:54:01.000 You see, when you work in coffee, you go to cocktail parties or something, people always ask you these questions.

01:54:05.000 They ask you, what's your favorite coffee and why?

01:54:08.000 Because they want to know.

01:54:09.000 They also want to know what the deal with decaf is.

01:54:11.000 What is the deal?

01:54:12.000 Well, I mean, so coffee has this alkaloid caffeine, and then you have to get it out.

01:54:21.000 So the first way that they got it out is they used a solvent, like...

01:54:26.000 Paint thinner?

01:54:27.000 Yeah, kind of.

01:54:28.000 More like dry cleaning solvent.

01:54:29.000 Oh, God.

01:54:31.000 This is 100 years ago.

01:54:33.000 And they noticed...

01:54:35.000 That it was able to take the caffeine out.

01:54:37.000 And that was the original...

01:54:39.000 But who wants to use that in their...

01:54:41.000 So over the years, they've developed better ways of doing it, using carbon dioxide or charcoal filters to get the caffeine out.

01:54:50.000 And how much do you actually get out?

01:54:52.000 Because I had heard that Starbucks has a particularly high caffeine content of their regular coffee, and that there might be a little bit left to that when you have decaf.

01:55:01.000 Is that the case?

01:55:02.000 That doesn't sound right to me.

01:55:02.000 No?

01:55:03.000 No.

01:55:04.000 I don't see any reason why Starbucks would have a higher caffeine content.

01:55:08.000 Of their coffee?

01:55:09.000 Yeah.

01:55:09.000 So it's just an urban legend sort of thing?

01:55:10.000 Sounds like an urban legend to me, yeah.

01:55:12.000 What about the decaf?

01:55:13.000 Does it have any caffeine in it at all?

01:55:15.000 Trace amounts.

01:55:16.000 Trace.

01:55:17.000 Just trace.

01:55:21.000 So, you know, people that are, like, allergic sensitive to it shouldn't drink decaffeinated coffee.

01:55:25.000 But people that are...

01:55:29.000 But, you know, most...

01:55:31.000 And each of these methods is slightly different.

01:55:34.000 But trace amounts of caffeine in decaffeinated coffee.

01:55:37.000 That's interesting.

01:55:38.000 And the good methods, the Swiss water process, for example, you may have heard of...

01:55:44.000 Is one, there's a number of these methods that are really good at getting the caffeine out and not destroying the flavor of the coffee.

01:55:51.000 So what is a, it says Starbucks tall decaf, a tall, which is a small, has 9.5 milligrams of caffeine in it.

01:55:59.000 Okay.

01:56:00.000 What does a normal cup of coffee have in it?

01:56:02.000 Like, uh...

01:56:04.000 150, 200, something like that.

01:56:05.000 So that's the tray.

01:56:06.000 So it's got a little bit.

01:56:08.000 A little bit.

01:56:08.000 But it's not caffeine-free.

01:56:10.000 It's just low caffeine.

01:56:11.000 Yeah.

01:56:11.000 But that's pretty low.

01:56:12.000 I mean, you know.

01:56:13.000 Sure, but if you have a...

01:56:14.000 Unless you're super sensitive to it.

01:56:15.000 But if you have a 20-ounce decaf, you're getting, what, about 18 maybe?

01:56:19.000 Is it a double?

01:56:20.000 What is that, a 16-ounce?

01:56:21.000 16-ounce is double, right?

01:56:23.000 Because that's an 8. Is it tall an 8-ounce?

01:56:24.000 I don't know.

01:56:25.000 This is the Starbucks bar language that I don't know.

01:56:28.000 Right. 0.51

01:56:29.000 Well, they get all goofy with grande.

01:56:31.000 I know venti is 20 ounces.

01:56:33.000 I know that. 0.80

01:56:34.000 Yeah, that's silly. 1.00

01:56:34.000 Call it medium, stupid. 1.00

01:56:36.000 Don't call it tall. 1.00

01:56:37.000 That shit ain't tall. 1.00

01:56:38.000 In what world, Gulliver travels, in what world is that tall? 1.00

01:56:42.000 That's ridiculous.

01:56:44.000 So if someone is really sensitive to caffeine, though, they can also still probably get a little bit of a caffeine kick from a decaf. 0.81

01:56:52.000 Yeah, that's true.

01:56:52.000 If they're super sensitive to it.

01:56:54.000 So it's not caffeine-free.

01:56:56.000 It's not.

01:56:57.000 Yeah, I guess that's right.

01:56:58.000 Isn't that weird?

01:56:58.000 Because it's called decaf, but it's not decaffeinated.

01:57:01.000 It's only mostly decaffeinated.

01:57:02.000 It's mostly decaffeinated.

01:57:04.000 But the flavor.

01:57:06.000 Right.

01:57:07.000 Well, so, now the flavors...

01:57:09.000 Okay, great.

01:57:10.000 I've done this.

01:57:11.000 I've tasted a great coffee that becomes decaffeinated.

01:57:17.000 And certainly the flavor is impacted by the removal of caffeine, by the process it goes through, but it's still delicious coffee.

01:57:25.000 Okay, give us an example of a delicious decaffeinated coffee that we should look for.

01:57:30.000 Well, any coffee company that's putting extraordinary care into their regular coffee, it's very likely that they will be putting extraordinary care into their decaf, too.

01:57:41.000 But you should ask them about it.

01:57:43.000 I mean...

01:57:46.000 If you engage with them and they're proud of their decaf, then its chances are that they are putting a lot of care into it.

01:57:53.000 And I know that...

01:57:54.000 Okay, I used to run a coffee company, a coffee program for a coffee company back east called Counter Culture Coffee.

01:58:00.000 And I put...

01:58:05.000 We're good to go.

01:58:19.000 And I felt like that was a responsibility, you know?

01:58:21.000 That's a very interesting point.

01:58:23.000 Because you're not dealing with any people just looking for a drug.

01:58:26.000 Right, right.

01:58:27.000 And so, but the problem with decaf, I think, is that consumers who drink decaffeinated coffee, they don't necessarily expect to pay more.

01:58:39.000 They feel like it should be the same price, you know?

01:58:42.000 And I get that.

01:58:43.000 But it does cost money to put it through the process of decaffeinating.

01:58:47.000 Well, don't they feel like that most coffee's overpriced in the first place?

01:58:50.000 I don't think people really truly realize the amount of effort. 0.99

01:58:53.000 When you broke it down by one pound is one tree for a fucking year. 0.99

01:58:57.000 It's totally true. 0.99

01:58:58.000 Like, what is that?

01:58:58.000 Is that an eight-ounce bag of coffee?

01:59:00.000 What is that?

01:59:00.000 How many?

01:59:00.000 What does that bring in that Hawaiian roasters?

01:59:03.000 What does that say on it?

01:59:04.000 Yeah, I think this is probably 16 ounces. 0.99

01:59:05.000 That's a fucking year. 0.99

01:59:06.000 14 ounces. 0.99

01:59:07.000 So it's essentially a year of one plant.

01:59:09.000 Yeah.

01:59:09.000 That's unbelievable, man.

01:59:11.000 Yeah.

01:59:11.000 No, it's crazy.

01:59:13.000 You can get that for like 20 bucks or whatever the hell it is.

01:59:16.000 So we have this ideal of, you know, in the Depression, a nickel cup of coffee.

01:59:19.000 Yeah.

01:59:20.000 And, you know, that's when my grandparents had access to a nickel cup of coffee.

01:59:25.000 Starbucks?

01:59:26.000 You're paying $4 for a cup of coffee? 1.00

01:59:29.000 They think it's stupid. 1.00

01:59:30.000 Meanwhile, grow your own coffee, dummy. 1.00

01:59:32.000 Good luck. 0.96

01:59:33.000 But I mean, that was intentional.

01:59:34.000 I mean, restaurants at that time, they were losing money on their five-cent cups of coffees, even in the 20s.

01:59:40.000 Really?

01:59:40.000 But they did that.

01:59:42.000 It was sort of a lost leader.

01:59:43.000 They were trying to get people into the restaurants, you know?

01:59:45.000 But it kind of stuck in people's mind that coffee should be cheap.

01:59:50.000 And it shouldn't be.

01:59:52.000 In my view, coffee should be the best you can possibly make it taste.

01:59:59.000 And if that costs money, whatever.

02:00:02.000 Just drink less.

02:00:02.000 So let me ask you this.

02:00:04.000 Say if you're traveling across America and you stop at a diner because you're hungry, do you even fuck around? 0.99

02:00:09.000 Do you even order a cup of coffee? 0.99

02:00:10.000 Sometimes I do.

02:00:11.000 Sometimes I don't. 1.00

02:00:12.000 But do you get sad when they bring you out that little stupid white cup? 1.00

02:00:16.000 It is. 1.00

02:00:16.000 Taste it. 1.00

02:00:17.000 I mean, I love diners.

02:00:18.000 You know, I love to eat at diners.

02:00:21.000 Right.

02:00:21.000 I freaking love all that stuff.

02:00:22.000 But you don't love to drink coffee there.

02:00:23.000 And I love pancakes and hash browns and all that stuff.

02:00:27.000 And, uh...

02:00:30.000 A few times, I've gone to places where the coffee was outrageously good.

02:00:36.000 Do they tell you it was really good coffee?

02:00:37.000 Sometimes they're proud of their deal, and they all make it good.

02:00:42.000 So it's someone who takes as much effort into their omelets as they do into their coffee.

02:00:47.000 And that's possible, right?

02:00:48.000 Well, it should be.

02:00:48.000 It should be expected.

02:00:49.000 Totally.

02:00:50.000 If it's financially feasible.

02:00:52.000 Right.

02:00:52.000 And that's what comes down to people got to be willing to pay for good stuff.

02:00:56.000 What is a bag, like this delicious bag of Ethiopian Yergechev?

02:01:02.000 Usually that'll be, I don't know, maybe $12 or $13. 1.00

02:01:06.000 Dude, I'm going to sleep with this shit next to my pillow. 1.00

02:01:08.000 It's good. 1.00

02:01:09.000 I just want the smell.

02:01:10.000 Well, I hope you drink it. 0.99

02:01:11.000 I'm going to drink the shit out of this. 0.99

02:01:12.000 Don't worry about it. 0.99

02:01:13.000 Sometimes, and this always happened to me when I'd get a special coffee, I'd give it to my parents.

02:01:18.000 And they'd throw it in the freezer and they'd save it for a special occasion because they're like, well, no, no, this is special coffee, you know?

02:01:24.000 No, no, no.

02:01:24.000 We're drinking this all day this week.

02:01:25.000 There you go.

02:01:26.000 I'm going to put that out in the kitchen, too.

02:01:28.000 I'm not going to put it in the freezer.

02:01:29.000 I don't have to, right?

02:01:30.000 You don't have to.

02:01:30.000 Just drink it.

02:01:31.000 Drink it quickly.

02:01:31.000 All right, so we're going to leave this out.

02:01:33.000 And we're going to report on this.

02:01:35.000 And thank you for coming by.

02:01:37.000 Thank you to Wrecking Ball Coffee for making this awesome Ethiopian... 1.00

02:01:41.000 Yeah, it was a pleasure talking to you.

02:01:43.000 Is there anything else we can cover?

02:01:44.000 Anything that people don't know about coffee that should know?

02:01:48.000 You know, while we're gearing up, I was looking at the Twitter feed and somebody mentioned something.

02:01:53.000 Oh, okay, I've got a few things that people might be interested.

02:01:57.000 You ready?

02:01:57.000 Okay.

02:01:59.000 Cat shit coffee. 1.00

02:02:00.000 Oh, I've had that. 1.00

02:02:01.000 Kopi Luwak.

02:02:02.000 Kopi Luwak.

02:02:03.000 Yeah.

02:02:04.000 Yeah.

02:02:04.000 That's made by a civet.

02:02:06.000 They eat the beans.

02:02:06.000 Oh, you know the deal.

02:02:07.000 Yeah, I've had it.

02:02:08.000 I've ordered it.

02:02:09.000 It's interesting. 0.98

02:02:10.000 For folks who don't know, it really is shit out by this cat thing. 0.96

02:02:15.000 Right. 0.99

02:02:15.000 It's in the cat family, right? 0.99

02:02:17.000 Well, yeah.

02:02:18.000 I think it's more like a raccoon.

02:02:20.000 Yeah, and it eats the beans, and then shits them out, and then they take it out of its poop, and when it goes through its digestive tract, it imparts a very mellow taste to the coffee.

02:02:29.000 Right, and so it got in this movie, you know, The Bucket List.

02:02:32.000 What movie is that?

02:02:33.000 There's a movie called The Bucket List.

02:02:35.000 Oh, okay.

02:02:35.000 Jack Nicholson.

02:02:37.000 You don't remember this movie?

02:02:38.000 No, I never heard of it. 0.98

02:02:39.000 It was about some old guys, and they had a bucket list of things to do before they died, and one of the things was they drink the cat shit coffee. 0.98

02:02:45.000 And so that, of course, it started a rash of people asking... 0.99

02:02:52.000 There's the animal.

02:02:53.000 Look at that cute little thing. 1.00

02:02:55.000 Oh, that's fake, man.

02:02:56.000 He's not really talking.

02:02:58.000 Oh, that's the beans that he pooped out. 0.93

02:03:00.000 I first tried that with my friend Tate, who's one of the owners of Caveman Coffee.

02:03:04.000 Tate's always been a crazy coffee connoisseur, but we were in Miami and we saw this thing.

02:03:10.000 Where's Caveman Coffee, by the way?

02:03:11.000 He's out of New Mexico.

02:03:12.000 Okay, cool.

02:03:13.000 And this place in Miami was like some sort of a specialty coffee joint that was a restaurant that had these really expensive coffees.

02:03:21.000 And I forget how much.

02:03:22.000 It was like 30 bucks a cup or something like that.

02:03:24.000 Yeah, it's really expensive. 0.99

02:03:25.000 It was something really nutty because it came out of this cat's butt. 0.99

02:03:27.000 Yeah. 0.97

02:03:28.000 And the problem is, it's really rare, and that's why it's expensive and everything.

02:03:34.000 It's good, though.

02:03:35.000 I've had it.

02:03:35.000 It's delicious.

02:03:36.000 I'm glad.

02:03:36.000 Yeah, I'm glad you...

02:03:37.000 Okay, there can be some pretty rotten of this.

02:03:42.000 Wait a minute. 1.00

02:03:42.000 It comes out a cat's ass that's rotten? 1.00

02:03:44.000 How weird. 1.00

02:03:47.000 Yeah.

02:03:47.000 The other thing is, there are these places where they have the cats in cages and it's really sad.

02:03:51.000 Oh, fuck. 1.00

02:03:52.000 You know what I mean? 1.00

02:03:52.000 I didn't even think of that. 1.00

02:03:53.000 You got me now. 1.00

02:03:54.000 God damn it. 0.99

02:03:54.000 I'm sorry. 0.99

02:03:55.000 I'm not trying to...

02:03:55.000 Yeah.

02:03:55.000 You blackfished my Kopi Luwak.

02:03:57.000 What's Blackfish?

02:03:58.000 Blackfish is that new documentary that's killing SeaWorld.

02:04:01.000 Oh, right.

02:04:02.000 Because people got a chance to see what it's really like.

02:04:04.000 Yeah, that's right.

02:04:04.000 That's right.

02:04:04.000 Fucking SeaWorld.

02:04:05.000 It is terrible. 1.00

02:04:06.000 It's terrible.

02:04:07.000 They're slave colonies. 0.99

02:04:08.000 They're enslaving intelligent beings that we can't understand.

02:04:11.000 It's true.

02:04:11.000 It is.

02:04:12.000 It is 100% true.

02:04:14.000 I got a touch of that same sadness when I saw the...

02:04:19.000 And I've been to the places where they do this.

02:04:22.000 Oh, I'd imagine. 0.99

02:04:23.000 It just stands to reason, if you have a product like this that's very expensive, then you're going to have these fucking animals. 0.99

02:04:29.000 There's also a lot of fraud because it's so expensive. 0.99

02:04:32.000 I would imagine.

02:04:34.000 But the amount of pleasure that you can get from a coffee like the one I brought you or some of these other ones that you've mentioned, it's not totally necessary to go to that.

02:04:48.000 The other thing I noticed on the Twitter feed, somebody mentioned coffee going extinct.

02:04:52.000 About a year ago, there was a news thing that was talking about coffee going extinct.

02:05:02.000 This is tied into this...

02:05:06.000 This Ethiopia thing. 1.00

02:05:08.000 The fact that 98-99% of the total genetic diversity of coffee is in Ethiopia.

02:05:15.000 And not only in the country, but in one...

02:05:17.000 There you go.

02:05:19.000 You're fast on that.

02:05:22.000 It's not even Ethiopia at all.

02:05:24.000 It's the southwest part of Ethiopia where coffee is indigenous too.

02:05:29.000 Pull an image of the beans and stuff like that.

02:05:31.000 Get a blow up on one of those because most people don't even know what coffee beans look like.

02:05:35.000 Yeah.

02:05:36.000 So we call them coffee cherries for obvious reasons.

02:05:38.000 Yeah.

02:05:39.000 I mean, they look like a fruit.

02:05:40.000 It's so interesting because we think of coffee as, you know, if you're crazy, you grind your own stuff.

02:05:46.000 Right, right.

02:05:47.000 That's how most people think.

02:05:47.000 But it's already cooked and roasted.

02:05:50.000 Yeah, we think of it as food.

02:05:51.000 Yeah.

02:05:52.000 In coffee, you know, and...

02:05:54.000 You know, one of the biggest things that we can do for people is...

02:05:59.000 How pretty that is.

02:05:59.000 Yeah, it's beautiful.

02:06:00.000 Looks like grapes.

02:06:01.000 Get people to understand that coffee is the seed of a fruit.

02:06:04.000 I need to get some of that coffee fruit.

02:06:06.000 I want to eat some of that fruit.

02:06:07.000 I'm going to send you some.

02:06:08.000 But you'd have to send me the dry stuff.

02:06:10.000 Yeah, I'll do.

02:06:10.000 Where can I go and actually buy the fruit and eat it?

02:06:13.000 Is there a place where you can come?

02:06:14.000 Jay Reski in Santa Barbara, California.

02:06:16.000 Oh, so that's right.

02:06:17.000 That's right.

02:06:18.000 45 minutes away from here or something. 0.98

02:06:19.000 Yeah, I fucking love Santa Barbara. 0.90

02:06:21.000 I've actually thought about moving there. 0.92

02:06:22.000 Oh, I'm there soon.

02:06:23.000 When am I there? 0.97

02:06:24.000 I think I'm there in April or some shit like that.

02:06:27.000 You should go visit Jay. 0.89

02:06:28.000 He's a great guy.

02:06:30.000 The fruit is delicious.

02:06:31.000 You eat fruit, right?

02:06:32.000 I love fruit.

02:06:33.000 Yeah, then this is the guy.

02:06:35.000 I'm there in Santa Barbara, May 2nd.

02:06:37.000 Friday, May 2nd, I'm at the Lobero Theater with Joey Diaz.

02:06:41.000 Yeah, go check it out.

02:06:41.000 So I will definitely go and check that out.

02:06:44.000 Because I want to go just to support that guy.

02:06:47.000 I love when someone does something that cool.

02:06:49.000 It takes a crazy project like that and...

02:06:52.000 Spend seven years.

02:06:54.000 He's a cool guy, for sure.

02:06:56.000 Well, listen, man, this is really fascinating stuff.

02:06:58.000 Really interesting.

02:07:00.000 I really appreciate you coming out here and educating us and giving us all the lowdown on coffee.

02:07:06.000 I've been on a journey to kind of understand and learn the process of this over the last few months.

02:07:13.000 Yeah.

02:07:13.000 Just really kind of digging deep into the coffee flavor barrel.

02:07:18.000 It's really been fascinating stuff and very intriguing and stimulating in a lot of ways.

02:07:25.000 Just the ideas behind it.

02:07:27.000 It's cool to uncover this whole community of people trying to enhance flavors and taste them.

02:07:36.000 I had no idea there was a Specialty Coffee Association of America until just a few days ago.

02:07:41.000 Yeah.

02:07:42.000 Serious business.

02:07:43.000 SCAA.org.

02:07:44.000 You want to hear a crazy thing?

02:07:45.000 You're talking about intellectual connection and stuff like that.

02:07:50.000 Coffee was invented in Ethiopia, as we said.

02:07:53.000 In Ethiopia, they do it like a coffee ceremony.

02:07:57.000 It's a very ceremonial way to prepare it and drink it.

02:07:59.000 Mm-hmm.

02:08:00.000 And when they do this coffee ceremony, it's like they gather people together from the village and they talk about things.

02:08:07.000 They talk about the news of the village.

02:08:09.000 They talk about things that are going on in the world.

02:08:13.000 When coffee moved from Ethiopia to Yemen, totally different deal.

02:08:18.000 Like in Ethiopia, it's always a woman that makes coffee, whereas in Yemen it wasn't like that. 0.66

02:08:23.000 I think?

02:08:37.000 Still remained a place for intellectual exchange and discourse and stuff like that.

02:08:42.000 They planned the American Revolution in coffeehouses.

02:08:46.000 It's because they were wired, right? 1.00

02:08:48.000 They were like, fuck these English people. 1.00

02:08:49.000 There's something about coffee that gets your mind going as well as... 1.00

02:08:54.000 It stimulates you and wakes you up.

02:08:56.000 Do you think that the Tea Party movement, that had an effect on the way the United States took off just by simply the fact that they went from tea to coffee?

02:09:05.000 There are people that speculate that.

02:09:07.000 That totally is valid, I think.

02:09:09.000 Yeah.

02:09:09.000 That coffee consumption is a part of the American drive to ingenuity and imagination.

02:09:17.000 We're on fucking speed. 0.97

02:09:18.000 We're a country on speed. 0.99

02:09:19.000 I wonder if they could show gross domestic product post-Starbucks and Whether or not Starbucks impacted people's productivity.

02:09:27.000 But still, if you go to meet somebody at a coffee shop, you're going to talk about something that's different than going to drink with somebody at a bar or have dinner with somebody or something like that.

02:09:37.000 It's different.

02:09:38.000 It's somehow more about exchanging information, more imagination.

02:09:41.000 It's stimulating.

02:09:42.000 The stimulant of caffeine in coffee is stimulating, and then the flavor is enriching. 0.99

02:09:49.000 You enjoy the flavor, and then you get fucking happy. 0.94

02:09:51.000 And it's been that way since... 0.98

02:09:53.000 The origin of coffee.

02:09:54.000 A thousand years.

02:09:56.000 Coffee houses are always thought of as places where people read poetry.

02:10:01.000 Politics, etc.

02:10:03.000 And as you said, planned revolutions.

02:10:05.000 That's interesting to me.

02:10:06.000 Yeah, it is interesting.

02:10:07.000 And that's one of the reasons that I think that I like to work in coffee because I'm into that sort of thing anyway.

02:10:13.000 Intellectual engagement, creativity, music, poetry, politics.

02:10:20.000 This has always been like that.

02:10:22.000 It's like this in Asia, in Arabia, everywhere that coffee goes just like that.

02:10:27.000 Do you feel like coffee doesn't get enough credit for the impact that it has had culturally?

02:10:33.000 Yeah, I do think...

02:10:35.000 Sometimes it bums me out, this idea of cheap...

02:10:39.000 People want cheap, abundant coffee.

02:10:42.000 Its only function is as a drug to get them to work in the morning.

02:10:47.000 And it's been cheapened by our culture.

02:10:50.000 But it's special, and it could go away.

02:10:56.000 Really?

02:10:57.000 Well, yeah.

02:10:58.000 So this whole extinction thing is about how where 98% of the origin of coffee is, because of climate change, this scientist...

02:11:10.000 Who does this work has done the projections, and if the weather there, as predicted, increases by a few degrees, then the coffee won't be able to survive.

02:11:21.000 And it could be 80% wiped out in these natural coffee forests in 50 years.

02:11:25.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:11:27.000 And then we'll be up a creek, because the motherlode of genetic origin of coffee will be gone, essentially.

02:11:37.000 That's intense.

02:11:38.000 And then can there be steps done to safeguard that?

02:11:41.000 Well, we're trying to do that in the industry.

02:11:42.000 So we actually had a conference about a year ago on this very question where we talked about preservation of the genetic diversity of coffee, which means taking coffee out of Ethiopia, planting it elsewhere to make sure that we've got other examples of the genetic diversity in other parts of the world.

02:11:59.000 You know, preserving it.

02:12:01.000 There's other ways to preserve coffee.

02:12:03.000 Coffee, you know, by freezing the seeds, you know, and putting them in storage, so if we need them, we can go back to them.

02:12:10.000 This has been an eye-opening podcast, man.

02:12:12.000 I learned more about coffee today than I had in 46 years of life on this planet.

02:12:17.000 I'm glad.

02:12:17.000 Thank you, Peter.

02:12:18.000 I really, really appreciate you taking your time and educating us, and I really appreciate your passion.

02:12:22.000 And the website is SCAA.org.

02:12:25.000 That is the Specialty Coffee Association of America.

02:12:28.000 And follow Peter on Twitter.

02:12:30.000 It's Peter Giuliano, G-I-U-L-A-N-O. L-I-A-N-O. L-I-A-N. Okay.

02:12:41.000 G-I-U-L-I-A-N-O. That's me. 0.99

02:12:46.000 Giuliano.

02:12:46.000 Yeah, thank you, brother.

02:12:47.000 So, Peter.

02:12:47.000 Peter Giuliano.

02:12:48.000 G-I... Peter first. 0.96

02:12:50.000 P-E-T-E-R. G-I-U... G-I-U-L-I-A-N-O. That's a lot of work, bro. 0.99

02:12:58.000 Thank you, Joe Rogan.

02:12:59.000 That's a long name.

02:13:00.000 It's so easy.

02:13:01.000 Joe Rogan's so easy.

02:13:03.000 Giuliano, but it has a lot more flow to it.

02:13:05.000 And again, S-C-A-A dot org. 1.00

02:13:07.000 Thank you very much, man.

02:13:08.000 All right.

02:13:08.000 Really, really appreciate it.

02:13:09.000 Okay, peace.

02:13:09.000 And thanks also to our sponsors.

02:13:11.000 Thanks to Naturebox.

02:13:15.000 Naturebox.

02:13:15.000 Go to naturebox.com and use the...

02:13:19.000 Wait, hold on a second.

02:13:20.000 I lost my place. 1.00

02:13:23.000 Nature Box, you fuckers. 1.00

02:13:25.000 You're awesome, delicious shit. 1.00

02:13:27.000 You confused the shit out of me. 1.00

02:13:29.000 It's a code named Rogan, I believe. 0.84

02:13:31.000 Oh, we don't need a believe, we need a no. 1.00

02:13:33.000 So give me a second here.

02:13:35.000 Nature Box, yeah, here we go.

02:13:38.000 Yes, it is.

02:13:39.000 NatureBox.com slash Rogan.

02:13:41.000 It's not a code word.

02:13:42.000 So NatureBox.com slash Rogan.

02:13:44.000 That's why we look it up.

02:13:45.000 Otherwise, we confuse the fuck out of people.

02:13:47.000 So go to NatureBox.com slash Rogan.

02:13:49.000 Try NatureBox and get 50% off your first box.

02:13:53.000 That's naturebox.com slash rogan.

02:13:56.000 Very delicious stuff.

02:13:57.000 And as I said before, a lot of variables as far as what you can order.

02:14:01.000 You can go super healthy, you can go medium healthy, you can go pretzels. 0.98

02:14:04.000 But really good, yummy, delicious shit with a lot of positives on it. 0.99

02:14:10.000 No artificial sweeteners, no artificial flavors, no artificial colors, no partially hydrogenated oils. 0.99

02:14:17.000 And like I said, the blueberry almonds are the bomb diggity, son.

02:14:20.000 Go get yourself some of that.

02:14:22.000 And we're also brought to you by LegalZoom.com.

02:14:26.000 LegalZoom.com is an excellent sponsor as well and one that we really enjoy here on the podcast because we get a lot of positive feedback.

02:14:34.000 In fact, 9 out of 10 people who've used LegalZoom said they would use it again.

02:14:38.000 Go to LegalZoom.com and use the code word ROGEN in the referral box at checkout for more savings.

02:14:46.000 Thanks also to Onnit.com.

02:14:48.000 Go to O-N-N-I-T. Use the code name ROGAN and save 10% off any and all supplements. 0.98

02:14:55.000 Now, bitches, you know as much about coffee as you ever need to unless you become a freak like Peter Giuliano. 1.00

02:15:02.000 Alright. 0.99

02:15:02.000 We'll see you guys tomorrow with a TriCast. 0.99

02:15:05.000 Dr. Christopher Ryan and Duncan Trussell return and we're doing our threesome thing that we always do once a month.

02:15:12.000 So much love.

02:15:12.000 See you guys soon.

02:15:13.000 And tomorrow night, Ice House almost sold out.

02:15:15.000 Get on it. 1.00

02:15:16.000 See you, bitches. 1.00

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 10, 2014

Joe Rogan Experience #467 - Peter Giuliano

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