The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #657 - Corey Knowlton

00:00:01.000 Good.

00:00:01.000 Alright, we're live.

00:00:02.000 This is a perfect time for me to talk to you about this, because I just took a yoga class and had a vegan lunch.

00:00:08.000 Awesome.

00:00:09.000 How do you feel?

00:00:10.000 I feel like namaste.

00:00:11.000 I feel centered.

00:00:13.000 I feel like my chakras are in line.

00:00:15.000 I feel fine.

00:00:16.000 To have a vegan lunch, did you travel over there with a car without leather seats?

00:00:23.000 No, no, no.

00:00:25.000 Yeah, it's not really a vegan lunch.

00:00:26.000 My car had leather seats.

00:00:28.000 Yes, so then also on top of that, like your tofu, was it meat flavored?

00:00:32.000 No, I didn't have tofu.

00:00:33.000 I just had vegetables.

00:00:34.000 Okay.

00:00:35.000 Well, vegetables still taste like vegetables.

00:00:37.000 I did kill a mosquito as soon as I got out of my car, so I don't think that's vegan either. 0.99

00:00:41.000 Well, sounds like you're a murderer. 0.98

00:00:43.000 Sounds like it to me. 0.99

00:00:45.000 Corey, if you don't know, Nolton, the last one, right?

00:00:49.000 Correct.

00:00:49.000 You got it.

00:00:51.000 One of the reasons why I wanted to have you on this podcast is I'm a big fan of Jim Shockey.

00:00:56.000 Jim Shockey's show, The Uncharted Show.

00:00:59.000 Something's going on my nose.

00:01:01.000 And I'd seen you on that show.

00:01:03.000 So when the controversy broke, CNN covered the story. 0.59

00:01:07.000 For folks who don't know what we're talking about, Corey, you bid money to be one of the people that got a chance to kill a black rhino.

00:01:19.000 For people who are not aware of how conservation and hunting work, What they try to do, especially with endangered species, is they have to sometimes protect endangered species from their own.

00:01:36.000 And it seems very counterintuitive.

00:01:39.000 For people who are on the outside looking in, you say, well, this is an endangered animal.

00:01:43.000 Why are you killing one of these endangered animals and trying to call this conservation?

00:01:49.000 But with rhinos in particular, or a lot of aggressive animals, even giraffes, the older males, the older bulls, the older non-breeding members of these groups sometimes will attack the young males and kill them.

00:02:04.000 And females. 0.95

00:02:05.000 And females. 0.95

00:02:06.000 And calves. 0.98

00:02:07.000 They'll kill everything.

00:02:09.000 And it is just a natural part of being a wild animal when the numbers are strong and healthy It's like it happens in bears every day of the week.

00:02:18.000 It's just a part of being a bear But when it happens with something that's endangered like a black rhino they're forced into a very peculiar situation where they have to Most likely either kill or put this animal in captivity.

00:02:35.000 All right A lot of different situations, depending on the animal, what it's actually doing, right?

00:02:41.000 But yes, I mean, some of the things you're talking about could apply.

00:02:45.000 And this is where it gets counterintuitive.

00:02:47.000 So they have a bid, and the bid gets to, you want it, what is it, $350,000?

00:02:54.000 That's correct, yes. 0.99

00:02:55.000 That's a lot of fucking money. 0.99

00:02:57.000 And you went over there, you shot this rhino, all that money went towards aiding the rhino population. 1.00

00:03:05.000 It wasn't enough money.

00:03:07.000 It should have been a lot more money.

00:03:09.000 Because they need more money?

00:03:12.000 Absolutely, they need more money, and the value of that was greater than that amount of money.

00:03:18.000 That was the amount of money that I was able to claw together and make happen.

00:03:25.000 The anti-hunting community and the animal rights community came out so strongly against this situation for what I think either misunderstanding or they were trying to keep the contribution down, one or the other, or both.

00:03:40.000 And there's people who were much wealthier than I am and had a lot more money who really wanted to spend the money.

00:03:49.000 But at the time, I don't think that they...

00:03:53.000 Well, they had a better idea of what was to come than I did.

00:03:56.000 I guess I was a little bit naive about it.

00:03:58.000 But these people are...

00:04:00.000 A couple of them are very well-known people.

00:04:02.000 And I don't think they wanted to put their employees in their company.

00:04:06.000 And, you know, their life, their family, do the same things that I end up going through.

00:04:11.000 And they were...

00:04:14.000 Basically chased out by the anti-hunting community's rhetoric and their attacks.

00:04:21.000 What what was surprising to you about this whole experience because it had to be a pretty life-changing experience like you're a guy who's you know relatively famous in the hunting world you being on that Jim Chocke show and You decide that you want to be the guy so you you spend all this money What was your goal when you wanted to do this?

00:04:43.000 Did you want to bring awareness to this was it something that you felt strongly about from the very beginning?

00:04:47.000 Well, I've always felt very strongly about Conservation and hunting, okay, ever since I was young.

00:04:55.000 But the way this came about was a friend of mine who runs a company called Conservation Force, or a non-profit, 501c3.

00:05:06.000 And he came to me and said, look, people I had that are bidding on this are gone.

00:05:12.000 And he asked me if I would bid on it.

00:05:14.000 And the bid that I made was basically within very close to the minimum bid.

00:05:22.000 There was really no one else.

00:05:24.000 Really?

00:05:25.000 The minimum bid was $350,000?

00:05:27.000 Well, see, you've got to keep in mind they sell these over in Namibia.

00:05:31.000 They have auctions amongst themselves.

00:05:33.000 This is the first one that took place in the United States.

00:05:35.000 That's why it brought so much publicity.

00:05:37.000 This wasn't the first Rhino that was to be brought into the United States.

00:05:41.000 So this is something that happened before, just not on a public stage in the United States.

00:05:45.000 So they are able to get a certain amount of money already for them, and they wanted to get more over here.

00:05:50.000 That was the whole idea.

00:05:52.000 And so they brought it over here.

00:05:55.000 The permanent secretary of the Namibian Ministry of Environment and Tourism, him, and basically one of the rhino experts of the country came over and took place.

00:06:08.000 They were there at the auction when it took place.

00:06:10.000 So the amount of money that gets raised, this enormous amount, $350,000, in your opinion, Is low.

00:06:18.000 It would have probably been much more if there wasn't...

00:06:20.000 Yeah, not in the opinion of many, in fact, low.

00:06:23.000 And I believe it'll come about again, but probably in a different way.

00:06:28.000 And it's going to be at least, I would say, three times higher.

00:06:32.000 So they're going to do it again?

00:06:34.000 I don't think they're going to do it again in the fashion they did.

00:06:35.000 They're absolutely going to do it again, but they're not going to do it in the fashion they did this time, I don't think.

00:06:39.000 Look, I don't speak for them, so I don't know.

00:06:41.000 But yes, they will continue to auction off these surplus rhinos.

00:06:45.000 And it's not hard to get people to be willing to do this, but in order to get people to spend $350,000 to save the rhino, just to donate to save it without hunting...

00:06:59.000 It's pretty difficult.

00:07:00.000 I actually think that's more complicated because in this situation that I was in, the money had to be proved to go to the right places to benefit the rhino.

00:07:11.000 The path had to be proven to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife for them to grant the import permit.

00:07:16.000 So it went through the process, which was like the most vetted process possible.

00:07:22.000 On every level, it was the most vetted conservation hunt probably in history.

00:07:28.000 And they do these hunts like this here in the United States all the time.

00:07:30.000 They auction off special deer tags, special elk tags, special sheep tags.

00:07:35.000 This year I was in auction where a mule deer tag went for $385,000.

00:07:40.000 So they do these all the time to raise money.

00:07:44.000 So it's not like a new idea.

00:07:47.000 But in this case, it was the most vetted way for the money to get to the source.

00:07:52.000 And I believe in conservation.

00:07:54.000 I believe in hunting as a means, as a tool to help perpetuate it and keep these animals alive.

00:08:00.000 So I had a personal interest in the process.

00:08:06.000 So, and there's other people like me who feel the same way, and they are happy to donate to that.

00:08:13.000 Like you're saying, just to get somebody to do it, well, where do I give it to?

00:08:16.000 How do I know the money's going to the right place?

00:08:18.000 Right.

00:08:18.000 It's, like, similar to, like, I don't know if you know about the Red Cross controversy.

00:08:22.000 Did you see that that just came out a couple days ago about Haiti?

00:08:26.000 That they, millions and millions and millions of dollars went to Haiti to help people after, what was it, the big earthquake they had?

00:08:34.000 Is that what it was?

00:08:35.000 And they built, like, five houses. 0.99

00:08:37.000 Like, they don't even know where most of the fucking money went. 1.00

00:08:39.000 It's just a complete fuckfest. 1.00

00:08:42.000 Look at this. 0.99

00:08:43.000 Half a billion dollars spent, six homes built.

00:08:46.000 Jesus Christ.

00:08:47.000 Well, I think that speaks to the point that I was trying to make.

00:08:50.000 And that's obviously a different scenario.

00:08:53.000 We're talking about people.

00:08:54.000 Who knows what that is?

00:08:55.000 You look at your news source there.

00:08:57.000 Salon.com.

00:08:58.000 It's the greatest news.

00:08:58.000 There you go.

00:09:00.000 They're so unbiased.

00:09:01.000 They love everyone equally.

00:09:03.000 So...

00:09:05.000 What do they have to say about you?

00:09:07.000 Anything mean?

00:09:07.000 Well, yes.

00:09:11.000 Everybody who had an agenda to it that was against the whole process of what I was doing, and this goes all the way from the head of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife to trying to make it look like CITES and IUCN aren't the world's foremost experts,

00:09:29.000 especially IUCN. What are those companies?

00:09:31.000 What is that?

00:09:32.000 IUCN is a...

00:09:34.000 Group that puts together the red list of endangered species.

00:09:38.000 Okay, they are the foremost experts on the subject and a guy named Michael Knight heads up that African rhino specialist group and he's the foremost expert in the world on rhinos.

00:09:47.000 Okay, so you've got you have the world's Foremost experts in this you had the WWF a guy named Chris Weaver in Namibia Who heads that up?

00:09:56.000 You had WWF behind it.

00:09:57.000 You had IUCN behind it.

00:09:59.000 You had CITES behind it.

00:10:00.000 You had U.S. Fish and Wildlife, which, you know, I've come down on two different sides with them.

00:10:04.000 Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't, okay?

00:10:06.000 But in this case, I absolutely agree with them.

00:10:08.000 So you had, like, the four most authorities in the world all agreeing with this.

00:10:12.000 And then you have a...

00:10:15.000 Large amount of people who type in 75 characters on Twitter and feel better about it.

00:10:21.000 And, you know, they're weighing in.

00:10:25.000 And in today's day and age, you look at that, and it's like a handful of people who are emotional about something outweigh public, you know, I mean, the experts of the world opinion.

00:10:36.000 Well, it becomes very controversial, first of all, because it went on at the same time as they were broadcasting another species of rhino that was going extinct.

00:10:46.000 There was three of them left, one male, two women, and the male wasn't breeding with them, and they were like, this is it.

00:10:53.000 You're looking at the last three of these rhinos.

00:10:54.000 Sure.

00:10:56.000 And it also, part of the reason is it falls into this category that people call trophy hunting.

00:11:03.000 And it's very different than going to the supermarket and buying meat from an animal that was killed for meat.

00:11:10.000 The idea of trophy hunting bothers a lot of people because they think what you're doing is you're going over there and you're shooting something to prop up your ego.

00:11:16.000 You're shooting something because, you know, you want to be the master.

00:11:20.000 You want to go over there and blast this thing and take a picture, grip and grin and smile.

00:11:25.000 Yeah.

00:11:25.000 I think that's like a...

00:11:27.000 I'm sure throughout history that's existed, but I don't think that that's an accurate representation of people who...

00:11:32.000 You can call trophy hunting whatever you want.

00:11:34.000 I mean, you can put it on...

00:11:35.000 If you're out there looking for the biggest cow elk because you want the meat, all right?

00:11:39.000 You're being selective about which one you're picking, okay?

00:11:43.000 So, for what...

00:11:44.000 The truth about let's quote-unquote trophy hunting is you're going out there looking for the most mature male of the species that you can find.

00:11:54.000 Okay, and you're going through a selective process.

00:11:57.000 And I think there is, amongst hunters, there's definitely a movement going, you know, Jim and I used to talk about it all the time.

00:12:05.000 We would go out, we're looking for the oldest male of the species we can find.

00:12:09.000 Okay, because that's the best one to take out.

00:12:11.000 He's already breeded, he's going to go down, he's going to fall over dead on the mountain if it's a ram, and birds are going to pick his eyes out while he's alive. 0.97

00:12:19.000 Okay, he's going to go through a horrible death.

00:12:21.000 And we're going to spare that animal that.

00:12:25.000 And so there's a lot that goes into that.

00:12:29.000 And I understand people say, okay, that's what it is.

00:12:32.000 Joe, like, for instance, I just met you today, and my idea of who you are isn't who Joe Rogan is.

00:12:39.000 The only person that knows who Joe Rogan is is Joe.

00:12:41.000 I think some other people know.

00:12:43.000 Jamie knows me.

00:12:43.000 Well, whatever.

00:12:44.000 In reality, you're the only person to know your thoughts.

00:12:47.000 My point is, I can't put the decisions that brought you to where you are right now.

00:12:54.000 I don't know what that is.

00:12:55.000 In this case, I had hundreds of thousands of people trying to say, You did this for this reason.

00:13:06.000 Right.

00:13:07.000 They don't know what reason I did it for.

00:13:08.000 Right.

00:13:09.000 They never talked to me.

00:13:10.000 They never met me.

00:13:11.000 Okay.

00:13:12.000 And so, yeah, okay, you want to go ahead and lump everybody in there because it's easy for you to disenfranchise them.

00:13:19.000 Well, you're defending yourself here, and I would be defensive, too, if I had experienced the kind of barrage of hate that I've seen leveled your way.

00:13:26.000 But that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on, is give you a chance over, you know, a couple hours to speak your mind.

00:13:32.000 And so, what people have a problem with, I think, is people that want to kill things and don't eat them.

00:13:38.000 There's some people that have a problem with you eating meat.

00:13:40.000 There's some people that have a problem with you eating fish.

00:13:42.000 Some people go deep with it, right?

00:13:45.000 I think there's varying degrees of outrage when it comes to people killing animals.

00:13:50.000 But at the top of that list is what they call trophy hunting.

00:13:54.000 And that's someone who kills it that doesn't have any intention of eating it.

00:13:57.000 If you kill a mature mule deer because it has an awesome rack, you're still going to eat that animal.

00:14:04.000 It's still food.

00:14:04.000 It's delicious food.

00:14:04.000 You're going to eat it, you're going to donate it, you're going to do something with it.

00:14:06.000 Yeah, it's delicious food, and there's a reason why people hunt them.

00:14:10.000 It's because they taste fantastic.

00:14:11.000 It's high-quality protein.

00:14:12.000 It's great for you.

00:14:14.000 You're not eating a rhino, right?

00:14:16.000 Did you eat it?

00:14:16.000 Absolutely, the first thing.

00:14:17.000 You ate it?

00:14:18.000 Right there on the spot.

00:14:19.000 Did you?

00:14:19.000 Absolutely.

00:14:20.000 What does it taste like?

00:14:21.000 It was better than an elephant.

00:14:22.000 Really?

00:14:23.000 Mm-hmm.

00:14:23.000 Do you eat elephant?

00:14:24.000 Sure.

00:14:25.000 Whoa, what does that taste like?

00:14:26.000 Not as good as rhino.

00:14:28.000 So, what part of the rhino do you eat?

00:14:31.000 Well, we delivered the entire thing to a whole village.

00:14:35.000 You know, our group wasn't hungry enough to eat the entire rhino right there.

00:14:39.000 I would imagine.

00:14:39.000 Yeah, I mean, how many thousands of pounds was this thing, by the way?

00:14:42.000 You know, I'd guess it was between 2,500 and 3,000 would be my guess as a large animal.

00:14:47.000 And this, did they have any refrigeration in this village, or is this just they eat what they can?

00:14:51.000 You know, to the extent, no.

00:14:53.000 There was so many people that that wasn't going to be a large issue.

00:14:58.000 I've seen that before with an elephant hunt on television.

00:15:02.000 It was a documentary on the controversy in these hunting camps in South Africa, and they shot this elephant and donated it to these villagers.

00:15:12.000 These people came with baskets and stuffed these baskets with elephant meat, and they cut that entire carcass down to bite-sized portions or meal-sized portions in just a matter of a few hours.

00:15:23.000 It was insane.

00:15:24.000 It was crazy to watch. 0.92

00:15:27.000 So, when people think of this being just a waste, just killing this animal... 0.74

00:15:32.000 They're wrong.

00:15:33.000 They're wrong.

00:15:34.000 100%.

00:15:34.000 That wasn't really discussed at all in the news.

00:15:36.000 That was never covered.

00:15:37.000 I never saw one article that covered the fact that you fed it to people.

00:15:40.000 Yes, we did.

00:15:41.000 There's a video of it on CNN. Did they show the feeding of it to the people?

00:15:47.000 Absolutely.

00:15:47.000 I got pictures of it on my phone.

00:15:48.000 There you go.

00:15:49.000 I'll show you right here.

00:15:50.000 I believe you 100%.

00:15:51.000 I'm not questioning you.

00:15:52.000 Well, look, I want to show you.

00:15:54.000 Okay.

00:15:54.000 You're sitting across from me right now.

00:15:57.000 I'm looking at the CNN article.

00:16:00.000 I don't see any pictures of it.

00:16:01.000 If you go to the meat delivery...

00:16:04.000 Is there a link in there?

00:16:05.000 It should be.

00:16:06.000 I've got it on my phone.

00:16:08.000 But, for instance, here's me standing in front of the village's selfie with the entire rib cages of that animal.

00:16:15.000 Whoa.

00:16:18.000 Wow.

00:16:19.000 See, after the black rhino hunt, a village celebrates meat delivery.

00:16:23.000 Oh, okay.

00:16:23.000 So this is a separate video other than the one that I had watched, which was the title of that was Texas Hunter Bags His Rhino in Controversial Hunt in Namibia.

00:16:34.000 Yeah.

00:16:34.000 So not so controversial to the people that you delivered the meat to.

00:16:38.000 Absolutely not.

00:16:39.000 Those people, if you look at them, they're very excited to get this protein.

00:16:44.000 An elephant, huh?

00:16:45.000 Yeah, the idea of meat wastage in Africa isn't that...

00:16:50.000 Look, in the United States, it's hard for us to comprehend it because we've got a system of such excess that the poorest among us are the most overweight.

00:17:01.000 You go to Africa, a poor person is skin and bones. 1.00

00:17:04.000 Right.

00:17:04.000 Okay.

00:17:05.000 You know, people say the money is the root of all evil.

00:17:08.000 Poverty is the root of all evil.

00:17:09.000 You go over there and see it firsthand.

00:17:10.000 It's horrible.

00:17:12.000 And so, they're not wasting an ounce of that meat.

00:17:15.000 Now, this animal had been targeted because it had killed one young bull already, and it was an older, angry male with not a whole lot of time left, right?

00:17:27.000 Is that the idea?

00:17:28.000 That's correct, and I believe it had killed more than that through its life.

00:17:32.000 It had been transported already to this area.

00:17:34.000 Like, when it was around 19 years old.

00:17:38.000 And how old did they live?

00:17:41.000 Look, I saw a list that had them there, and they had them alive in the field listed at over 37 years old.

00:17:47.000 Wow.

00:17:48.000 So, you know, they lived at least that long.

00:17:52.000 You're not that old.

00:17:53.000 How old are you?

00:17:54.000 I'm 36 years old.

00:17:55.000 How long have you been doing this big game wild hunting thing?

00:17:59.000 I got into it when I started guiding hunts when I was 16 years old.

00:18:03.000 You started guiding hunts when you were 16?

00:18:05.000 My first, I graduated high school.

00:18:07.000 I was guiding hunts through high school.

00:18:09.000 What kind of hunts?

00:18:10.000 Whitetails? 0.56

00:18:11.000 No, like ducks.

00:18:12.000 And ducks and geese and stuff.

00:18:15.000 And then I slowly got into hunting.

00:18:18.000 It's what just became a passion to me.

00:18:19.000 We grew up real, real poor.

00:18:21.000 I just laugh all the time when I see people talk about how, you know, like I'm some rich, over, you know, super, talk about my family and the oil business and whatnot.

00:18:32.000 I was already, before my brother, my father, their partner had any success in the oil business, man, I was in my 20s.

00:18:39.000 I was I'd already charted my path and was going.

00:18:42.000 Actually, I wasn't aware of your background.

00:18:44.000 I was going to ask you that, too. 0.99

00:18:45.000 Where the fuck did you come up with $350,000? 0.99

00:18:48.000 Luckily, I've been successful in life, especially in the hunting business. 0.99

00:18:52.000 I was very successful in guiding hunts and setting up hunts.

00:18:55.000 That's how Jim and I got together.

00:18:56.000 I was booking hunts all around the world.

00:18:59.000 I started when I was 16, taking people duck and goose hunting.

00:19:03.000 And Texas is, you know, obviously a different place.

00:19:07.000 I don't know how much time you spent in Texas, but hunting.

00:19:09.000 I love Texas.

00:19:09.000 Yeah, Texas.

00:19:10.000 Hunting and fishing is a part of life.

00:19:15.000 It's just, for the most part, it's very accepted.

00:19:19.000 Okay?

00:19:20.000 And even if you don't do it, you have a family member that does.

00:19:23.000 You got a buddy that work does.

00:19:24.000 And so people are, I mean, I'm telling you, people in Texas aren't that judgmental, really.

00:19:28.000 I mean, about this, at least.

00:19:31.000 And so, anyway, we're all growing up together as a family, and it's a part of our thing.

00:19:38.000 And my granddad, I mean, I grew up in poverty when I was real young.

00:19:42.000 And what we had to do was go hunting and fishing.

00:19:48.000 I don't think I shot my first deer until I was 15 or 16 years old.

00:19:53.000 So I did this bird hunting, and then I graduated high school, and I went and got a job working for a guy in Colorado guiding mountain lion hunts.

00:20:02.000 And then I, you know, got another, started another business up with floor tile and made money and I was saving my money up to go hunting and I met another guy, a guy named Aaron Nielsen and him and I started up a company together and we started taking people on hunts.

00:20:16.000 We'd say, we'd go on these different hunts on ourself.

00:20:18.000 We'd go there, find the area, check it out and go on these adventures and then come back and get people together and go on more of them.

00:20:25.000 And it's kind of snowball and snowball.

00:20:27.000 When I met Jim in 2001, Back then, you know, I was just getting into it and I already, you know, knew quite a bit.

00:20:38.000 I'd already hunted Africa. 0.95

00:20:39.000 I'd already gone through a lot of places in the world and just got into it and said, hey, Jim, you want to go to Africa?

00:20:45.000 And we went and that was his first African trip.

00:20:49.000 I think?

00:21:19.000 Mm-hmm.

00:21:26.000 We were like, well, a lot of these people are calling, they're saying they're professionals, but they're getting like a free bow.

00:21:31.000 You know, we're actually making our livings doing this, you know, taking people hunting and outfitting and guiding and whatnot.

00:21:37.000 Well, it's also the quality of the show.

00:21:39.000 Yeah, true.

00:21:40.000 Jim's shows are excellent.

00:21:41.000 They're really well done, especially Uncharted could easily be on the Discovery Channel or the History Channel.

00:21:46.000 I mean, it is a great show.

00:21:47.000 Yeah, and so that was kind of our goal.

00:21:50.000 We wanted to chronicle this and make the production level as high as we could.

00:21:54.000 And show people that, you know, there is a human side to this.

00:21:57.000 And that's what was our goal.

00:21:59.000 So do you get frustrated when you watch, like, there's some reality, or not reality shows, there's some hunting shows that are on television that, you know, are essentially like cable access shows.

00:22:10.000 I mean, they're just really poorly made, bad editing, bad personalities.

00:22:15.000 I mean, that's those guys' dream.

00:22:17.000 I'm not going to say I get frustrated at it.

00:22:19.000 You know, it's just like everybody who plays baseball is not going to be Mickey Mantle, right?

00:22:25.000 But do you feel an obligation when people flip through the channels and they pause on one of those shows?

00:22:31.000 And that's their exposure to hunting.

00:22:34.000 Yeah, I mean...

00:22:36.000 I don't know that every single one of them, even ours, would be a true representation of all of hunting.

00:22:41.000 You know what I mean?

00:22:43.000 I feel like we strive for that.

00:22:45.000 I mean, personally, look, I don't watch hunting shows because I lived it.

00:22:49.000 You know what I mean?

00:22:50.000 I really lived it to the fullest.

00:22:52.000 I've been everywhere I could have ever dreamed of and seen everything, so it's hard for me to watch it.

00:22:57.000 It'd be like you going outside of all the fights you've watched.

00:23:00.000 Are you going to get really excited about watching two bums duke it out in front of the studio? 1.00

00:23:05.000 Unfortunately, yes.

00:23:06.000 Well, that's why you're so good at what you do.

00:23:09.000 I like watching little kids beat each other up.

00:23:12.000 Sorry.

00:23:14.000 Swing and a miss.

00:23:16.000 But I see your point.

00:23:17.000 I totally see your point.

00:23:20.000 So you started out hunting, essentially, for food.

00:23:24.000 Well, yeah, well, no.

00:23:26.000 We ate them.

00:23:26.000 Part of life.

00:23:27.000 Part of life.

00:23:28.000 I mean, I grew up, we went hunting, we shot doves, we shot quail, we ate them.

00:23:32.000 We went fishing, we were catching release and boiling grease.

00:23:36.000 We were catching crappie and eating them.

00:23:38.000 That was part of life.

00:23:40.000 How did you go from that to shooting an elephant?

00:23:44.000 Well, if you really like hunting and you go over there and you learn more about it, you know, and you have a passion for it, if that's what you want to do, you just go.

00:23:54.000 Right, but what leads you to want to shoot an elephant?

00:23:59.000 Personally?

00:24:00.000 Yes.

00:24:01.000 I just loved hunting.

00:24:03.000 I loved the idea of being out there.

00:24:05.000 I loved the idea of being with local people.

00:24:06.000 I loved the idea of seeing the way it worked in other parts of the world.

00:24:09.000 I mean, I had a burning, crazy desire to go experience nature.

00:24:15.000 Right.

00:24:16.000 Okay?

00:24:17.000 And be a part of the cycle of life in an intimate way everywhere I could go.

00:24:23.000 Like, people don't realize it, I don't think.

00:24:26.000 And it's hard, you know, like, and I'll get into it later with you, really interested in To hear your path that brought you to it.

00:24:33.000 I'm sure you've talked on it, and we don't have to talk on it because right now it doesn't bother, you know, if you've talked about it, your listeners get bored of it or whatever.

00:24:40.000 But I'd really like to know it, okay?

00:24:42.000 Because you probably understand, and I don't want to, like, speak for you, but when you're that close to an animal, when you're within bow range of an animal, it's a different experience than you have going to 7-Eleven or whatever you're going to have in a normal life.

00:24:57.000 And so, in a way, that would be the way I would translate it.

00:25:00.000 I just wanted to go everywhere I possibly could.

00:25:03.000 And I read everything I possibly could.

00:25:05.000 And I learned everything I possibly could.

00:25:07.000 Especially about I had a real passion for Asia.

00:25:10.000 I've hunted all over Asia.

00:25:11.000 Everywhere that I could go in Asia, I went.

00:25:13.000 You know, I could go down the list.

00:25:15.000 It astonished you.

00:25:16.000 And so I went over there, and Asian hunting is, by and large, brutally hard.

00:25:22.000 Why's that?

00:25:23.000 I mean, we went to Nepal.

00:25:25.000 You're up to almost 17,000 feet.

00:25:28.000 You know, you walk in, you walk out.

00:25:30.000 You know, your whole camp is being carried in or carrying out a lot of times.

00:25:35.000 And if you're backpack hunting, you're carrying everything you live in.

00:25:38.000 You know?

00:25:39.000 I mean, I'm 36 years old going on like 86 years old because of all the diseases and stuff my body's been through. 0.98

00:25:47.000 Jardia and all that shit. 0.67

00:25:48.000 I never had Jardia, but I had one they couldn't figure out, the Mayo Clinic one time. 0.98

00:25:53.000 Like, and it was killing me.

00:25:54.000 And then I had malaria.

00:25:56.000 I've had that.

00:25:58.000 I've had numerous other infectious diseases that were, you know, destroying me.

00:26:03.000 At 20, let me think, was 22 years old, I got malaria.

00:26:07.000 And my fever got so bad that my gums were immediately like a 40-year-old person.

00:26:12.000 Your gums were?

00:26:13.000 Yeah, like a fever damaged your gums.

00:26:15.000 I guess I'm not a doctor, is what they told me.

00:26:19.000 What happens to your gums?

00:26:20.000 I don't know, man.

00:26:21.000 It's something that has to do with high fever for a long time.

00:26:23.000 I don't know.

00:26:24.000 So it just makes your gums recede or something like that?

00:26:26.000 Yeah, you have all the...

00:26:26.000 Dude, malaria's a bad deal.

00:26:28.000 Yeah, I've had a friend who had malaria.

00:26:29.000 Yeah.

00:26:30.000 And so I didn't catch it till later.

00:26:32.000 Part of the problem is like the medicines they give you make you feel bad, right?

00:26:35.000 So you don't really notice it coming on at first.

00:26:39.000 It's almost better in some circumstances just not to take the prophylactics.

00:26:42.000 And I'm not going to say anybody should do that.

00:26:44.000 But personally, I do that a lot unless I just know I'm in a solid malaria area.

00:26:49.000 And then you'll know that it's coming on sooner because by the time it hit me, I was really sick.

00:26:53.000 So you're talking about the anti-malaria medication you take before you get it?

00:26:57.000 Yes.

00:26:58.000 Yeah, I had a friend who took that and he was drinking.

00:27:01.000 Apparently you're not supposed to take it and drink.

00:27:02.000 And he went crazy.

00:27:04.000 Like he got violent and apparently hallucinated.

00:27:07.000 Yeah, probably larium, the one you take once a week.

00:27:09.000 I think that was exactly what it was.

00:27:10.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:11.000 It'll make you hallucinate and freak out.

00:27:14.000 People hear you say that you have a passion for it, you know, and that you love being in wildlife, and I understand that.

00:27:20.000 But the big question would be, why not just go there and see those animals?

00:27:25.000 Like, why would you want to go and kill an elephant?

00:27:27.000 Like, what is it about...

00:27:30.000 You know, it's the same thing.

00:27:31.000 It's hard for me to put it in words, but, I mean, I believe that human beings are a part of the cycle of life.

00:27:38.000 I believe your eyes are in the front of your head.

00:27:40.000 I believe you have canine teeth not for eating salad.

00:27:45.000 Salad's good for you, though.

00:27:46.000 It's great.

00:27:46.000 Eat it.

00:27:47.000 Have it up.

00:27:47.000 Okay?

00:27:48.000 And so I believe that's why you have them.

00:27:50.000 I believe that we are predators.

00:27:52.000 I believe it's a part of us.

00:27:53.000 Right.

00:27:53.000 And so for me to explain something that is a part of me, it's hard like that.

00:27:57.000 It's hard for me to say.

00:27:58.000 And I think people get caught up in, well, you just enjoy the killing.

00:28:03.000 It's like you don't hunt to kill.

00:28:07.000 You kill to have hunted in a lot of ways.

00:28:09.000 And I've been on 12...

00:28:11.000 You don't hunt to kill.

00:28:12.000 You kill to have hunted.

00:28:13.000 What do you mean by that?

00:28:16.000 If you're a hunter...

00:28:19.000 You're going out hunting.

00:28:20.000 You're not going out killing.

00:28:21.000 If I liked killing things, I'd work at the chicken plant and I'd get 11,000 chickens every day.

00:28:26.000 If I really got a thrill out of killing stuff.

00:28:30.000 I've gone on 12 hunts that I went on, unsuccessful sheep hunts, and those were some of the best hunts that I ever had.

00:28:37.000 And it wasn't anything about killing the animal or not killing the animal.

00:28:41.000 Yeah, it's a goal.

00:28:41.000 But that was kind of part of the reason that brought me to those places.

00:28:45.000 You're not going to go to these places, man, for no reason.

00:28:48.000 When people think about Africa, they're thinking about the Maasai Mara and a nice East African or Kruger Park type photo safari.

00:28:56.000 You're not going into darkest Africa on the border of the Congo or in the Congo or...

00:29:03.000 You know, these nasty places in the world to go take pictures.

00:29:06.000 Most people aren't going to do it.

00:29:08.000 Even the photo people, you're going to get to, like, the rawest of the raw.

00:29:12.000 They're going to go and do that stuff.

00:29:13.000 It's brutal on you.

00:29:14.000 It's not comfortable.

00:29:16.000 You go out and hang out with, you know, with pygmies who are very tough people, for instance, who've been to Cameroon, and they're waking up every morning, a lot of them, you know, their lives are hard, okay? 1.00

00:29:27.000 It's not a nice existence, and you go out there and exist with them.

00:29:30.000 It's a different thing.

00:29:33.000 So, you feel compelled to go to these places and compelled to hunt?

00:29:40.000 Absolutely.

00:29:42.000 See, people have, like, they've found out you're killing, you know, an antelope or something like that.

00:29:46.000 Seems normal.

00:29:47.000 You know, you're shooting that, you eat it.

00:29:49.000 But shooting an elephant to people, they have a hard time with it because they're intelligent and they're social creatures and they know each other for, they have insane memories.

00:29:57.000 Most of all these animals are intelligent.

00:29:59.000 Are they?

00:30:00.000 Really?

00:30:00.000 White-tailed deer?

00:30:01.000 If they're hunted, they're really intelligent.

00:30:03.000 Wolf?

00:30:04.000 Extremely intelligent.

00:30:05.000 Wolves are very intelligent, yeah.

00:30:07.000 Look, in an innate way to stay alive, they're much more intelligent about their environment than you and I ever would because that's their home and they live in it.

00:30:18.000 So, it's a different thing.

00:30:23.000 Elephants, are they intelligent?

00:30:24.000 Absolutely.

00:30:25.000 Do they have ethics and emotions?

00:30:28.000 No.

00:30:29.000 I mean, outside of rawest form, I've been around animals that I thought were angry.

00:30:34.000 Well, they definitely have emotions, right?

00:30:35.000 They get upset at dead loved ones.

00:30:37.000 But ethics, that's a human construct.

00:30:42.000 There you go.

00:30:43.000 And what happens is when people are trying to apply human constructs to animals, what right does the antelope have not to be killed by the jaguar?

00:30:54.000 Or, I'm sorry, the leopard.

00:30:57.000 What right does it have not to be killed by the leopard?

00:30:59.000 I mean, it's a part of its life.

00:31:01.000 That makes sense to people.

00:31:03.000 What doesn't make sense is the desire, I think, for some people, there's a desire to go over there and shoot beautiful animals.

00:31:10.000 A whitetail deer is beautiful.

00:31:11.000 It's killed every day.

00:31:12.000 I agree.

00:31:13.000 But it seems normal to people because it's killed every day.

00:31:16.000 Because we kill it and we eat it.

00:31:17.000 An elephant seems like something that you see at the circus.

00:31:21.000 It seems like something that's endangered.

00:31:23.000 There's the whole thing.

00:31:24.000 There's 250,000 elephants in Sub-Saharan Africa.

00:31:27.000 How endangered does that sound to you?

00:31:29.000 Yeah, that's true.

00:31:31.000 I wanted to get to that.

00:31:32.000 Okay.

00:31:32.000 But you asked normal people, the average person, with the average exposure to elephants, and they think they're in danger.

00:31:42.000 Okay.

00:31:43.000 Unfortunately, that's not true in Sub-Zaveral and Africa.

00:31:45.000 In places like CAR, it's true.

00:31:47.000 They're in trouble.

00:31:49.000 And in these places, sometimes they actually have to kill these elephants because they start encroaching in human territory and stomping villages.

00:31:56.000 Just population control.

00:31:57.000 Straight population control.

00:31:58.000 I know a guy who killed 1,200 elephants.

00:32:00.000 Jesus Christ.

00:32:02.000 Okay.

00:32:04.000 1,200.

00:32:05.000 Why did he do that?

00:32:06.000 Population control.

00:32:07.000 So he lives down there.

00:32:09.000 Yeah, well, I don't even know if he's still alive now, but anyway, yeah.

00:32:12.000 That was his thing.

00:32:13.000 He worked for the government killing them. 0.82

00:32:15.000 And when you do this, you have to spend a considerable amount of money to kill an elephant, right?

00:32:19.000 Not necessarily.

00:32:20.000 What do you consider a considerable amount of money?

00:32:22.000 How much does it cost?

00:32:23.000 I mean, you can go there sometimes.

00:32:25.000 I mean, I know people who've shot them for a couple thousand dollars. 0.50

00:32:27.000 You could shoot an elephant for a couple thousand dollars?

00:32:29.000 You're not bringing the tusk home. 0.99

00:32:30.000 You're shooting it and then the village eating it.

00:32:34.000 And what do they do with the tusks? 0.75

00:32:35.000 That would be like on a cow, probably. 0.99

00:32:37.000 Just a female in population control. 1.00

00:32:39.000 I mean, the least that I've ever heard of anybody shooting a bull elephant for, you know, in recent times, probably like $8,000, $6,000, $8,000 bucks.

00:32:47.000 And then the government just keeps a tusk.

00:32:49.000 And the government keeps a tusk and does what with them?

00:32:51.000 I don't know.

00:32:51.000 It depends what, you know, what do they put them in storage?

00:32:53.000 I don't know exactly what they do with them.

00:32:55.000 That's a weird thing because of the ivory trade.

00:32:57.000 Correct.

00:32:58.000 The poaching and the ivory trade, I mean, that's what we see all the time when we connect elephants with death.

00:33:02.000 We see these animals, they're sawed off tusks and, you know, the rest was left behind.

00:33:09.000 That's poachers. 0.85

00:33:09.000 That's criminals. 0.85

00:33:12.000 Horrible criminals. 0.99

00:33:14.000 So if you go over and you shoot an elephant, if you shoot a bull elephant, you can't bring the tusks back? 0.99

00:33:20.000 Yes, you can.

00:33:21.000 You can? 0.98

00:33:21.000 Like if you shoot one in South Africa or Namibia right now, you can import them. 0.98

00:33:25.000 You can? 0.95

00:33:26.000 Absolutely.

00:33:26.000 I thought there was a ban on importing ivory.

00:33:28.000 Only in, they shut down Zimbabwe until they change their structure. 0.59

00:33:33.000 It's not because there's not enough elephants there.

00:33:35.000 They have, you know, thousands and thousands of elephants.

00:33:38.000 In Tanzania, they shut down the import for different reasons with regards to poaching and whatnot.

00:33:44.000 And so the only thing that kills elephants is rarely lions will kill them, right?

00:33:49.000 Other than people.

00:33:50.000 Other elephants.

00:33:51.000 Other elephants.

00:33:52.000 Yeah.

00:33:54.000 And so it's one of those apex animals that if people don't step in and do something about the population...

00:34:00.000 They destroy the habitat.

00:34:01.000 And they can get out of control.

00:34:02.000 That's Botswana.

00:34:04.000 Botswana is bad? 1.00

00:34:05.000 Yeah, eastern Botswana is bad. 0.82

00:34:07.000 They destroy, it's like a tornado in a lot of places.

00:34:09.000 I went to a place, the place that I hunted elephant was in Botswana, and it really looked like a hurricane had come through.

00:34:15.000 It just looked like the whole landscape was demolished.

00:34:19.000 And it was just because of elephants?

00:34:20.000 Absolutely.

00:34:20.000 You're dealing with some enormous...

00:34:22.000 I mean, how much does a big elephant weigh?

00:34:26.000 You know, I mean, well, over 10,000 pounds.

00:34:30.000 I mean, the biggest one I've probably seen, I would have guessed 14 foot tall.

00:34:34.000 It's a huge animal.

00:34:35.000 It's a different experience hunting an elephant.

00:34:37.000 Yeah, I would imagine.

00:34:38.000 You know, it's a totally different thing.

00:34:40.000 And the thing that you have to understand, there's different reasons to hunt different things, okay?

00:34:47.000 You know, it's not like hunting is some giant, just broad thing.

00:34:55.000 And in the case of elephants, if you want people to have a positive benefit, local people who really determine the survival of any animal is local people.

00:35:07.000 You have to put a positive benefit on it for them.

00:35:10.000 If it's just living next door to an elephant, you don't want that.

00:35:13.000 If it's living next door to a lion, you don't want that.

00:35:16.000 And so you're trying to understand that.

00:35:20.000 You have to give them a reason to keep it there.

00:35:22.000 Or it's not going to be there.

00:35:24.000 Did you ever see Louis Thoreau's documentary on the hunting camps in Africa?

00:35:30.000 It's very interesting.

00:35:31.000 It's very good.

00:35:32.000 If you don't know who Louis Thoreau is, he's a documentarian from the UK and he really gets very very thorough on subjects and he spent a lot of time in this South African hunting camp but it got down to the end of it and you know he was Pastoring this guy who ran this camp to the point where the guy said,

00:35:54.000 you don't get it. 0.99

00:35:56.000 Every guy is fucked. 1.00

00:35:57.000 He goes, it's fucked. 1.00

00:35:59.000 He goes, they destroy. 1.00

00:36:00.000 The only way you're going to keep these fucking animals is if there were something. 1.00

00:36:06.000 Must have been a French PH. I think he was... 1.00

00:36:08.000 The way you're talking.

00:36:09.000 I don't know what he was.

00:36:10.000 My accents are terrible.

00:36:11.000 No, it's 100%.

00:36:12.000 But that's what he's saying.

00:36:13.000 It has to be worth something.

00:36:14.000 Dude, I look at it like a lot of people in the Western world are looking at it through an ethereal mist and not getting it.

00:36:22.000 If it pays, it will stay.

00:36:24.000 Period.

00:36:24.000 If it pays, it's going to stay.

00:36:26.000 Do you think that part of the problem with people and their perceptions of hunting is just based on this really weird insulated world that we live in where you could just go to the store and buy meat and most people, the vast majority.

00:36:39.000 100%.

00:36:39.000 Let me be clear.

00:36:42.000 100%.

00:36:44.000 That's the problem.

00:36:45.000 That is the problem.

00:36:46.000 And in addition to that, they think that Timon and Pumbaa, who are Disney characters created by a couple guys and drawn up and given personalities.

00:36:55.000 My daughters love them.

00:36:56.000 Okay, and so do mine.

00:36:57.000 Okay, but they're not real.

00:36:59.000 Exactly.

00:37:00.000 The real Timon and Pumbaa are out there fighting for their lives and would eat each other.

00:37:06.000 That's the way it works.

00:37:08.000 And would eat you.

00:37:09.000 They would eat you.

00:37:10.000 They would do anything.

00:37:11.000 The real animals out there are doing anything they can to survive.

00:37:16.000 Yeah, you saw that woman who's the editor from Game of Thrones got pulled out of her car last week. 0.86

00:37:21.000 I saw that, yeah. 1.00

00:37:22.000 Fuck. 1.00

00:37:22.000 That's a real lion. 1.00

00:37:23.000 That's a real lion.

00:37:24.000 That's not Lion King.

00:37:26.000 That's not...

00:37:26.000 No.

00:37:26.000 And even if that was in a park situation, fenced in.

00:37:30.000 Yeah.

00:37:30.000 Okay.

00:37:31.000 Like, and not...

00:37:32.000 One thing people don't...

00:37:33.000 Like, lion is a big deal with me.

00:37:35.000 I've hunted lion.

00:37:37.000 Been on many lion hunts.

00:37:38.000 Do you eat lions?

00:37:39.000 You don't eat lions in general.

00:37:41.000 Cameron Haynes was going to eat a lion if he shot it.

00:37:44.000 That dude would eat a shoe if he shot a lion. 0.92

00:37:45.000 That's fine, but that's not the reason to go hunting a lion.

00:37:49.000 Well, what is the reason to go hunting a lion?

00:37:51.000 In reality, if you want to keep lions around in wild areas that aren't parks, you have to have a local benefit for it.

00:37:58.000 That's the best reason.

00:37:59.000 You have to have some sort of financial incentive for the people in the area.

00:38:03.000 Financial incentive for people in the area.

00:38:06.000 And also prevents poachers by hiring rangers.

00:38:09.000 Well, or just like, for instance, in this black rhino situation, there wasn't anybody in there going to rat out where these black rhinos were at.

00:38:15.000 You go to South Africa, and I was actually hunting in a place the other day that was in the middle of the rhino war.

00:38:22.000 Okay, while I was there, they killed a poacher one of the nights I was there.

00:38:26.000 Okay, and it's a real deal.

00:38:28.000 Those people are having to lie detector test their staff.

00:38:33.000 Monthly.

00:38:34.000 Okay?

00:38:34.000 It's real simple.

00:38:35.000 I saw this.

00:38:36.000 Because the staff are poachers?

00:38:38.000 Their staff are tipping off poachers.

00:38:40.000 Whoa.

00:38:40.000 Okay?

00:38:40.000 People in the government are tipping off poachers.

00:38:42.000 It's an easy deal.

00:38:43.000 Okay?

00:38:44.000 Well, I just saw a white rhino isn't a black rhino.

00:38:46.000 You've got to keep that in mind.

00:38:47.000 Okay.

00:38:47.000 Black rhino is what you shot.

00:38:49.000 Yes.

00:38:49.000 And a white rhino, which was brought back from 30 animals to over 20,000 because of incentivizing people to own them and them being able to sell them on a hunting market, okay, and for whatever other reasons.

00:39:04.000 They were put into private ownership.

00:39:06.000 They went from 30 animals to 20,000.

00:39:07.000 Wow.

00:39:08.000 Okay.

00:39:08.000 The white rhino is very docile in general.

00:39:11.000 Not all of them, okay?

00:39:12.000 And they're much...

00:39:14.000 I mean, you would...

00:39:16.000 They're just easier to be around.

00:39:19.000 A black rhino has not a lot of tolerance in wild areas.

00:39:22.000 I mean, you saw that on our hunt.

00:39:23.000 It charged dead.

00:39:24.000 Tried to kill him. 0.98

00:39:26.000 Okay? 0.99

00:39:26.000 So, anyway... 0.99

00:39:29.000 White rhino are just more docile. 0.83

00:39:30.000 They're going to be hanging around, whatever, that's easier for the poachers to kill.

00:39:33.000 And obviously, there's more of them. 0.95

00:39:35.000 A lot more.

00:39:36.000 And so, anyway, it's just an easy animal for poachers to get.

00:39:40.000 And if somebody sees it on the side of the road, they tip off the local guy.

00:39:44.000 They were paying between $800 and $1,000 per bullet on the black market to kill these white rhino. 0.96

00:39:51.000 Or any rhino. 0.53

00:39:53.000 $800 to $1,000 per bullet?

00:39:55.000 That's what a poacher would pay.

00:39:58.000 What do you mean by per bullet?

00:40:00.000 Buying a bullet on the black market to put in this gun and go poach a rhino.

00:40:03.000 Pow.

00:40:05.000 They have to pay that much for a bullet.

00:40:06.000 That's what these people were paying because they got 375. You can't go kill a rhino in general with just a freaking.22. 0.97

00:40:12.000 Right. 0.97

00:40:12.000 Okay, so to get a 375 or 458 bullet, that's what they were paying to, to get that bullet. 0.97

00:40:17.000 So they had to get the bullets through illegal means as well.

00:40:20.000 Absolutely. 0.99

00:40:21.000 They're criminals. 0.94

00:40:22.000 Right. 1.00

00:40:22.000 It's not like you and I are getting together and going out there and saying, let's go kill a rhino today. 1.00

00:40:27.000 Okay, and we're gonna go get our bullets we bought on fair and legal here in the United States or wherever we bought them.

00:40:33.000 I think another issue that Lewis Thoreau covered in his documentary and that a lot of people are not aware of is that a lot of the lions, or excuse me, a lot of the animals in Africa that are being hunted on a regular basis were on the verge of extinction just two decades ago.

00:40:50.000 Maybe three.

00:40:51.000 And when they started doing those hunting camps, now these animals are thriving.

00:40:54.000 And the reason why they're thriving is because they're worth money.

00:40:56.000 And that bothers people.

00:40:58.000 It bothers people the idea that the only way these animals are surviving and thriving is if somebody is willing to pay money to go over there and hunt them.

00:41:05.000 Because these people who are sitting there looking at it ain't doing a damn thing to save them, Joe.

00:41:09.000 They're saving them to death by making uneducated comments and throwing up...

00:41:14.000 Typing 75 characters into Twitter or your Facebook page isn't saving a rhino.

00:41:21.000 It's making you feel better.

00:41:22.000 And these people's feelings are in the way of the actual conservation of wildlife through the people who know how to conserve wildlife.

00:41:30.000 Well, this is something that, for me, as an outsider who slowly ventured into the world of hunting, I had to learn.

00:41:37.000 And that's why I kind of sympathize with the people that are on the outside that aren't aware of all this. 0.99

00:41:42.000 When someone says, you know, I couldn't imagine someone going to Africa and shooting these animals, it's so fucked up. 0.99

00:41:47.000 I take a deep breath, and it's a long conversation. 0.99

00:41:50.000 Define what you just said.

00:41:52.000 What screwed up about it?

00:41:53.000 Well, their idea is that you're going over there with bloodlust. 0.86

00:41:58.000 You're on this orgy of murder, over there gunning down all these different animals and posing with their heads.

00:42:05.000 That's their idea, and it's wrong.

00:42:07.000 Well, it also doesn't cover the reality of the money that's involved in paying for those tags and going over there and flying over there and paying for these hunting camps to stay open has kept these animals in enormous populations where they were dying off just 20 years ago.

00:42:25.000 That's a reality.

00:42:26.000 And it's the only reality that we have documented in Africa right now as far as conservation of a lot of these game animals.

00:42:32.000 Especially outside the parks.

00:42:34.000 Look, a lot of the parks are spared because they're surrounded by game management areas and hunting areas.

00:42:43.000 And sometimes they have to take those parks and they have to have either someone come in and minimize or control the population and kill some of the animals because they get too high, or they have to open them up for hunters.

00:42:57.000 Yeah, I guess the best way I could put this is this.

00:43:00.000 Most everybody would agree that humans are complicit in the plight of a lot of these animals.

00:43:06.000 Do you agree with that?

00:43:07.000 Yes.

00:43:07.000 Okay, then why shouldn't humans be complicit in saving them and keeping them around?

00:43:12.000 Okay, through a traditional method, We're good to go.

00:43:35.000 Well, before refrigeration, it was like one of the only...

00:43:38.000 We have to do it on a regular basis.

00:43:39.000 75 years ago, we were basically in an agrarian society in a lot more ways, right?

00:43:45.000 And people looked...

00:43:46.000 If they're going to have lamb chops, they're going out there and killing that lamb right there. 1.00

00:43:50.000 Okay, how many people who eat lamb chops today are going to go out and kill that lamb?

00:43:53.000 Almost none.

00:43:54.000 And that's where it gets weird.

00:43:55.000 It's very weird. 0.95

00:43:56.000 And to you and I, I've heard you speak about it, it becomes very hypocritical. 0.95

00:44:00.000 It is. 0.89

00:44:01.000 It's 100% hypocritical, but it's also wild that the hypocritical is the most common.

00:44:07.000 It's more common to be hypocritical about meat than it is to not, because of this system that we've set up that's very effective, that allows you to go to any store, anywhere you want, and just buy meat instantly.

00:44:17.000 How long did it become, how long did it take you to truly understand martial arts and everything about it?

00:44:23.000 A long time.

00:44:24.000 And you still don't know everything about it?

00:44:26.000 No.

00:44:26.000 Okay, but how many years?

00:44:28.000 I think I was probably just getting started about 10 years in.

00:44:31.000 Do you think most people would consider you an expert in martial arts?

00:44:36.000 If not, I don't know who is.

00:44:38.000 I mean, I get paid to do it.

00:44:40.000 Okay, you get paid to do it.

00:44:41.000 It's your life.

00:44:42.000 So if I was going to ask you a question about martial arts or a move in martial arts or what it took, give me a good answer.

00:44:48.000 When it comes to most styles.

00:44:50.000 Some styles I don't know that much about.

00:44:53.000 Then it's no different in this.

00:44:55.000 Look, I've watched.

00:44:57.000 I can't tell how many fights that you've done, that you've been color for.

00:45:02.000 And I can sit there and say this or that or the other.

00:45:06.000 But to be inside that ring, I can't imagine what that's like.

00:45:09.000 So I'm not going to say I know what it's like to be one of these ultimate athletes.

00:45:14.000 I can't imagine what that's like.

00:45:17.000 I can't imagine what you put your mind through, your family through, everything.

00:45:20.000 It's the exact same thing with this.

00:45:23.000 I've done this since I was 16 years old.

00:45:25.000 Now, I'm not an expert on wildlife management or wildlife biology.

00:45:28.000 I trust experts.

00:45:29.000 When it comes to hunting, pretty close to, you know, you could ask almost everybody in the international hunting community.

00:45:36.000 I think they would say that Corey knows a lot about it.

00:45:39.000 So, you have to be in it to really understand it.

00:45:44.000 Okay, you can't just be from the outside in.

00:45:47.000 And what it comes is, there's so much, look, hate and anger are the lowest hanging fruit.

00:45:51.000 It's the easiest thing to reach to.

00:45:53.000 And today we're in an era of rush to outrage.

00:45:58.000 This technological, social media world is just like a giant boom shift.

00:46:03.000 And I think we're still lost in that.

00:46:05.000 And 20 years ago, if I went on a rhino hunt, nobody would have known about it.

00:46:10.000 Nobody would have cared about it.

00:46:11.000 They know hunting exists.

00:46:12.000 Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

00:46:13.000 And things went along.

00:46:15.000 Now, the squeakiest wheel gets the grease.

00:46:18.000 The people who are the most outraged, okay, they talk about it.

00:46:21.000 They scream about it.

00:46:23.000 And if you're someone who gets a lot of attention, like you're an actor, comedian, whatever...

00:46:28.000 They're looking at these people, you know, at their comments, and they look at the headline.

00:46:33.000 They don't look into it any more than that because we have a very short attention span.

00:46:37.000 News now is headline, headline, headline, headline, headline.

00:46:39.000 Trust me, I know I've been a part of it.

00:46:41.000 You know, I've talked about the black rhino a lot.

00:46:44.000 It goes away.

00:46:45.000 And if some event came up, it comes right back.

00:46:47.000 And as soon as it comes up, it's gone again.

00:46:49.000 You know, and for the animal rights people, there'll be somebody who will kill a dolphin or stab a frog or whatever, and they'll move on to that.

00:46:56.000 Have you had a debate with anybody in the animal rights movement?

00:47:01.000 Lots of them.

00:47:01.000 And what was their take on this?

00:47:04.000 When you try to explain your point of view, you try to explain that this is an aggressive older male that's not breeding anymore, that it had killed at least one young bull, was a danger to the breeding population of an endangered species?

00:47:19.000 Let me do it again.

00:47:21.000 Animal rights movement, like a hardcore, I've talked to a few of them.

00:47:25.000 And after they get done talking to me, almost every one of them finds some middle ground.

00:47:32.000 Animal welfare, which is why I would say there's a huge difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

00:47:36.000 Animal welfare, I promise you, or you and me, nobody wants to see an animal mistreated.

00:47:40.000 Nobody wants to see an animal suffer.

00:47:42.000 We understand that animals are used for part of humanity, and we probably wouldn't survive in the world without them the way we do now.

00:47:50.000 Animal rights is a totally different thing.

00:47:52.000 To some of those people, it's a religion.

00:47:55.000 It is their life.

00:47:57.000 I would agree with you.

00:47:59.000 Somebody like I watched...

00:48:02.000 I really hate it, but there was a person that you did a show, you talked with on Opie and Anthony a while back, who's one of the leaders of...

00:48:10.000 Richard Gervais?

00:48:11.000 Yeah.

00:48:11.000 And so he comes out and says things, and he said a bunch of inflammatory things towards me and towards anybody else, right?

00:48:18.000 And it's about his emotion about it.

00:48:21.000 It's not about if the facts are helping the black rhino survive.

00:48:25.000 These people would rather there not be an interaction with humans and animals They think the second of freedom of you releasing your pet, okay, some of them, and if it got hit by a car right over there, that minute of freedom is better than a lifetime than being Joe Ragoon's pet.

00:48:41.000 They obviously haven't seen my dogs.

00:48:43.000 Okay, and then they lump pets in.

00:48:46.000 They lump pets in.

00:48:48.000 I'm sorry, they lump animal welfare in with them.

00:48:51.000 They try to make that they're bigger because they get these animal welfare people, and a lot of those animal welfare people hate that.

00:48:57.000 They don't want to be lumped in with them.

00:48:59.000 You know, because they know that, you know, like Michael J. Fox said, that he didn't look at the life of an ant any more or less valuable than the life of his son.

00:49:10.000 What?

00:49:10.000 Yeah.

00:49:11.000 He really said that?

00:49:13.000 Check it out, bro.

00:49:13.000 Yeah, but he's got a disease.

00:49:15.000 That shit's fucking with his brain. 1.00

00:49:16.000 Okay, well, I think this was a long time ago. 1.00

00:49:18.000 But anyway, they say a lot of things like that.

00:49:20.000 That's an insane thing to say.

00:49:21.000 Okay, but that's obviously, you're talking about a certain...

00:49:26.000 That religious side of it, the ideological side.

00:49:29.000 And the problem they have really, especially with me, is that I had a gigantic mountain of facts and scientific material, wildlife biology.

00:49:43.000 On my side of the argument, I talked with a guy for a different show.

00:49:47.000 They're doing a documentary on this.

00:49:50.000 It's a show called Radio Lab.

00:49:52.000 I don't know if you know better.

00:49:52.000 Yes, I do.

00:49:53.000 I love that show.

00:49:54.000 They did a two-hour documentary.

00:49:55.000 I don't know how long it's going to be.

00:49:56.000 They're doing a huge documentary.

00:49:57.000 One of the guys came over with me on this hunt.

00:50:01.000 And I talked with this guy, Robert, I don't know what his last name is, Krolwich or something.

00:50:07.000 You know what I'm talking about?

00:50:08.000 Yeah, I know exactly.

00:50:09.000 I'm a big fan of that show.

00:50:10.000 Okay, so I talked with him at length last week and a half ago.

00:50:14.000 90 minute conversation.

00:50:17.000 And what I found is the more intelligent the person you have this debate with, the much easier the debate is to have.

00:50:25.000 And so I talked to him about it.

00:50:28.000 He didn't get it.

00:50:29.000 He didn't get, like, you know, what drives you or me to go hunting.

00:50:34.000 But he told me I had one of the best hard arguments, if not the best, that he'd ever gone up against.

00:50:41.000 That this placing value on them is going to keep them around.

00:50:45.000 At the end of it, at the very end of the conversation, he was like, Corey, you know, you have a really great sense of honor for this, and I really respect it.

00:50:53.000 It's refreshing, and I think you're right.

00:50:56.000 And so, but it took 90 minutes of going through, like I said, that ethereal mist of all the BS that's out here about this subject.

00:51:06.000 Manufactured outrage.

00:51:07.000 Manufactured outrage.

00:51:08.000 Okay.

00:51:09.000 And a lot of times when people are profiting off of it, I mean PETA, you know, killing all these pets, you know, however many they have.

00:51:16.000 Yeah, that's a hard part for people to swallow.

00:51:18.000 Okay.

00:51:19.000 If they don't know.

00:51:20.000 Tell people if they don't know the facts behind that.

00:51:22.000 Well, they're killing thousands of pets a year. 0.92

00:51:24.000 They just euthamize them because they can't take care of them.

00:51:27.000 They don't have the facilities. 0.96

00:51:28.000 Okay, so it's extremely hypocritical. 0.99

00:51:32.000 How the fuck do they justify that? 0.99

00:51:34.000 There's no kill animal shelters. 0.99

00:51:35.000 I don't understand how they don't run something like that.

00:51:39.000 Look, spay and neuter your pets. 1.00

00:51:41.000 If all the pets are spayed or new, there ain't going to be any pets left.

00:51:44.000 Right.

00:51:45.000 Okay, it's...

00:51:46.000 You're dealing with...

00:51:52.000 Almost psychotic level ideological people.

00:51:56.000 You know what my favorite ones are?

00:51:58.000 Who?

00:51:58.000 The people who break into restaurants and release lobsters back into the ocean.

00:52:01.000 That's great.

00:52:04.000 You know, I can tell you this.

00:52:07.000 For these people who called up or called me... 0.99

00:52:10.000 Sent me messages threatening to kill my children, starting to burn my house down, rape my wife, every single thing that you could ever imagine. 1.00

00:52:17.000 I mean, for those people to say they're going to do that, just in and of itself is ridiculous and hypocritical. 1.00

00:52:24.000 Right. 0.99

00:52:24.000 Okay. 0.99

00:52:25.000 You're against killing, but you're willing to kill me. 1.00

00:52:27.000 You're willing to kill and rape and kill your children, kill babies. 1.00

00:52:31.000 Absolutely. 1.00

00:52:31.000 That had nothing to do with the rhino at all. 1.00

00:52:33.000 It had nothing to do with any of it.

00:52:35.000 My wife hunts. 0.57

00:52:36.000 My kids hunt. 0.99

00:52:37.000 I guess they want to kill them for that. 1.00

00:52:38.000 Look, I'm mad. 0.98

00:52:40.000 It's not about what you're doing.

00:52:42.000 It's about my feelings.

00:52:43.000 And my feelings are more important than what you're doing if it's right or wrong.

00:52:46.000 And what they want to do is show you somehow or another what it's like to be feared or to be in fear.

00:52:53.000 You know how many people came to my face, Joe, and said one thing?

00:52:55.000 How about zero?

00:52:57.000 Yeah, zero.

00:52:58.000 Most people wouldn't.

00:53:00.000 And I will sit here and talk with any of them.

00:53:02.000 Well, I think that's a real problem in social media.

00:53:04.000 The real problem is anonymity and the lack of the social consequences. 1.00

00:53:08.000 If I look at you in the eye and I say something really fucked up to you, and you raise your eyebrows at me like, what the fuck did you say? 0.97

00:53:14.000 And then I feel that, and you feel it, and I feel it, but when you say something mean on Facebook, It hits that person. 1.00

00:53:21.000 You say, I hope your fucking whole family dies in a fire. 1.00

00:53:24.000 You know, those rhinos are majestic. 1.00

00:53:27.000 You go on about your day.

00:53:28.000 You don't even get a response back.

00:53:29.000 You don't feel anything back.

00:53:31.000 Yeah, and that makes them mad, too, but I responded to lots of them.

00:53:35.000 Well, I just retweet them.

00:53:36.000 I let other people respond. 1.00

00:53:37.000 I had a bunch of people angry at me because I went bear hunting, and I just retweeted a lot of their shit, and like, you're a bully. 1.00

00:53:42.000 You know, you're a bully. 1.00

00:53:43.000 You sick your fucking followers. 1.00

00:53:45.000 I didn't sick anybody. 1.00

00:53:46.000 You put some shit on the internet. 1.00

00:53:47.000 I let people know about it. 1.00

00:53:48.000 I didn't even say anything.

00:53:50.000 Go ahead, look at it.

00:53:51.000 Do you feel, and how many people came out after you about the bear?

00:53:56.000 A lot.

00:53:57.000 But I feel like there was a tremendous amount of ignorance on their part, first of all, because I do eat bear.

00:54:02.000 People were saying, you know, you're killing it, you're not eating it.

00:54:05.000 I absolutely eat it.

00:54:07.000 I like eating them.

00:54:08.000 They're delicious.

00:54:08.000 And you have to keep the population down.

00:54:10.000 And you also, you're dealing with an animal that kills the fawns of all the moose, all the elk, all the deer that live up there.

00:54:17.000 Your facts are getting in the way of their feelings.

00:54:19.000 It's true.

00:54:20.000 Well, it's also what...

00:54:21.000 Steve Rinella has this great phrase.

00:54:23.000 It's called charismatic megafauna.

00:54:25.000 And the anthropomorphization of these animals, like Yogi Bear and Winnie the Pooh, they are locked into people's heads. 0.99

00:54:32.000 These fucking Disney depictions of bears are locked in people's heads. 0.99

00:54:36.000 This is what's saving the animals to death. 1.00

00:54:39.000 Well, you know, what it is, is just, it's not doing a damn thing, but people getting riled up.

00:54:43.000 The outrage of it's keeping people, look, it kept the contribution for more money going, you see what I'm saying? 0.83

00:54:48.000 Well, in California, it's fucking up a lot of things.

00:54:51.000 California, these ideas have actually, I mean, California doesn't even have a fish and game department.

00:54:55.000 They have fish and wildlife.

00:54:57.000 Yeah, well, they can call it what they do.

00:54:59.000 But they call it what they call it.

00:55:00.000 It's run by people who are more animal activists than they are pro-hunting.

00:55:04.000 I don't know.

00:55:05.000 They have no mountain lion season here.

00:55:07.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:55:07.000 And because of that, there's a lot of fucking mountain lions. 0.99

00:55:10.000 Oh, no, no, no doubt about it. 0.99

00:55:11.000 There's a place called Dahone Ranch that I hunt out of. 0.75

00:55:14.000 They have one waterhole that they have a trail cam on.

00:55:16.000 They found 16 different mountain lions.

00:55:19.000 So what's in balance about that?

00:55:21.000 What's in balance about that?

00:55:22.000 There's no balance.

00:55:23.000 It's crazy.

00:55:24.000 The guys who work on the ranch, they don't like it at all. 0.97

00:55:27.000 Not a goddamn thing they can do unless one of them is threatening. 0.97

00:55:29.000 Unless one of them takes out livestock or becomes a threat to people, they can't do a damn thing about it. 0.98

00:55:35.000 And when that does happen, then they have to fill out all this paperwork.

00:55:37.000 It becomes like a huge nightmare.

00:55:39.000 They get investigated.

00:55:41.000 That's why we have a ton of game animals in Texas, and we don't have a ton of mountain lions.

00:55:46.000 And that's how it should be.

00:55:47.000 It's not like the mountain lion population is endangered.

00:55:50.000 Not in any way, shape, or form. 1.00

00:55:51.000 But they're goddamn predators, and they don't give a fuck about your kids. 1.00

00:55:54.000 They don't give a fuck about your mom. 1.00

00:55:55.000 They don't give a fuck about anybody that might have to be on that trail. 0.99

00:55:58.000 You're not going to have the predators for ethical treatment of humans. 0.98

00:56:05.000 Yeah, do you think mountain lions get tweeted when they kill someone's dog? 0.87

00:56:09.000 We're dealing with an extreme hypocritical situation.

00:56:12.000 We're dealing with an extreme lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

00:56:16.000 And we're dealing with people's emotions.

00:56:17.000 And look, I have a lot of compassion for their emotions.

00:56:19.000 I understand it.

00:56:20.000 Okay?

00:56:21.000 I care about these animals, too.

00:56:22.000 They may not get it.

00:56:23.000 Okay?

00:56:24.000 And to me, I've definitely did everything I could from a personal standpoint.

00:56:29.000 And once I was involved with this situation, I went to the more liberal media outlets to bring it to this.

00:56:37.000 I could have gone on Fox News and I've been preaching to the choir.

00:56:39.000 And I brought CNN with me on the hunt.

00:56:43.000 Yeah, you did.

00:56:44.000 So I went over there.

00:56:47.000 I was very, very honest and upfront with them about everything that I went through, everything they saw.

00:56:53.000 They came and saw the entire thing. 0.94

00:56:56.000 And so what I've seen is they got attacked because they said, oh, this was ridiculous.

00:57:03.000 Y'all were so behind him and involved with this. 1.00

00:57:05.000 Man, that is crap. 0.99

00:57:06.000 Well, you know what that is? 1.00

00:57:07.000 If you don't share the opinions of the people that oppose it, then you're some sort of a shill. 0.79

00:57:11.000 They did.

00:57:12.000 Yeah.

00:57:12.000 They did.

00:57:13.000 They did.

00:57:13.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:57:14.000 Once they get there, and that's the reality of the situation.

00:57:17.000 I mean, I had some conversations with people about this when this thing went down, and I said, look, I'm not going over there to shoot any rhinos.

00:57:24.000 I have no desire to shoot a rhino, but... 1.00

00:57:27.000 You've got to pay attention to what you're talking about because you can't just talk shit and say this guy's an asshole and this rhino didn't need to be killed. 1.00

00:57:35.000 You have to look at it from a balanced perspective, objectively, with no ideology attached to it. 0.99

00:57:41.000 And when you do that, you realize that there's a lot of people, a lot of conservationists, a lot of biologists who are pro-culling of certain animals in any population to keep that population healthy.

00:57:54.000 Again, it seems counterintuitive, but it's important.

00:57:56.000 What seems counterintuitive about it?

00:57:58.000 Well, it seems counterintuitive to the people outside. 0.99

00:58:00.000 I'm going to kill an animal to save the animal. 0.65

00:58:03.000 Let's talk about the term endangered for a second. 0.99

00:58:05.000 You cool with that?

00:58:06.000 Yes.

00:58:07.000 Okay.

00:58:08.000 Very crude drawing here of Africa.

00:58:12.000 And let's say that if an animal is up here...

00:58:17.000 Okay.

00:58:18.000 And then you have an animal down here.

00:58:20.000 Those are two separate populations.

00:58:22.000 So you made Africa, you cut it in half... 1.00

00:58:24.000 And I went to East and I went to South.

00:58:26.000 Okay.

00:58:27.000 Or what they consider East Africa.

00:58:29.000 Right.

00:58:29.000 All right.

00:58:30.000 If an animal up here is in trouble, and there's tons of them down here, you're going to see...

00:58:38.000 Whatever animal it is, I'm not going to use any specific, on endangered, this animal of the same species is fine.

00:58:45.000 Right. 0.99

00:58:46.000 Also because Africa is fucking gigantic. 1.00

00:58:49.000 It's gigantic. 1.00

00:58:50.000 If you look at Africa, this is the United States. 0.95

00:58:52.000 Yeah, we've shown that on set before.

00:58:55.000 We've taken an image of the continent of Africa, and you can put everything in there.

00:59:00.000 You put China in there, you put the United States in there, South America. 0.98

00:59:03.000 Yeah, Russia's pretty goddamn big. 0.95

00:59:05.000 Well, I flew across Russia one time, nine hours, and never left the country. 0.98

00:59:08.000 Whoa. 0.95

00:59:09.000 That's a big-ass country. 0.63

00:59:10.000 So, anyway...

00:59:13.000 If the animal up here is, it's going to be on the endangered species list, even though it's fine down here.

00:59:18.000 Right.

00:59:19.000 Okay?

00:59:19.000 So, for instance, in Namibia, if you pull up, go ahead and pull up Southwestern Black Rhino on Wikipedia.

00:59:27.000 Okay?

00:59:29.000 And I'll kind of walk you through this a little bit.

00:59:31.000 I want to see him pull it up, and we'll see if he pulls up the right one.

00:59:35.000 Southwestern black rhino is a different...

00:59:37.000 Subspecies.

00:59:38.000 Subspecies.

00:59:39.000 Oh, okay.

00:59:40.000 So it varies genetically in some sort of way?

00:59:42.000 Okay.

00:59:43.000 Now, look right there at the conservation status of the Southwestern black rhino.

00:59:49.000 Conservation status.

00:59:50.000 Okay, what does that say?

00:59:51.000 VU. Threatened?

00:59:53.000 Vulnerable?

00:59:54.000 Vulnerable.

00:59:55.000 Does it not say endangered?

00:59:57.000 No, it doesn't say endangered.

00:59:58.000 It says vulnerable.

00:59:59.000 What's the difference?

01:00:01.000 Wow.

01:00:02.000 Why is it wow?

01:00:03.000 Because it's not endangered.

01:00:05.000 In Namibia, it's not endangered.

01:00:06.000 It's considered vulnerable.

01:00:07.000 Okay.

01:00:08.000 Okay, and that's the IUCN list, bro.

01:00:10.000 That's the list that everyone looks to.

01:00:13.000 So least concern is the highest level.

01:00:15.000 Least concern is black bass, white-tailed deer.

01:00:18.000 Okay, and then what's NT? NT. NT is near-threatened.

01:00:22.000 Near-threatened.

01:00:23.000 So it goes from least-concerned to near-threatened.

01:00:26.000 That seems like a kind of a biased designation to begin with.

01:00:29.000 It's not healthy population.

01:00:31.000 It isn't even on the list.

01:00:32.000 It's just least-concerned.

01:00:33.000 Yeah, and even when you get into vulnerable, you get in there least-concerned.

01:00:37.000 That's not a concern of going endangered.

01:00:40.000 Okay, what's a healthy population?

01:00:42.000 Whatever.

01:00:42.000 It's not a concern of going endangered.

01:00:44.000 But it's right next to endangered.

01:00:45.000 That's the next distinction.

01:00:46.000 No, it's right next to threatened.

01:00:50.000 V-U is vulnerable.

01:00:52.000 What is E-N? Least concern, threatened, extinct.

01:00:56.000 And then you have E-W is extinct in the wild.

01:00:59.000 So you have to get into this.

01:01:01.000 The reason that they're not endangered on this is because Namibia has a surplus amount of them.

01:01:08.000 In Namibia, it's not an endangered situation.

01:01:11.000 They have a surplus amount.

01:01:12.000 Right.

01:01:12.000 When you say surplus, people say, look, this guy's talking about widgets.

01:01:16.000 You're talking about tires.

01:01:17.000 You're talking about carburetors.

01:01:19.000 Look, I don't have a degree in economics.

01:01:21.000 But you know what I'm saying?

01:01:22.000 Like, the term surplus to a living thing, it gets people weirded out.

01:01:26.000 Yeah, it's 7 billion humans or whatever we're at.

01:01:29.000 Is there enough of us?

01:01:30.000 I think there's a surplus, people.

01:01:32.000 Okay.

01:01:32.000 So my point is, you get into that.

01:01:34.000 In Namibia, they have...

01:01:36.000 A surplus amount.

01:01:37.000 Okay, so what is the population?

01:01:40.000 Man, I can't tell you exactly, but it's, I believe, more than 2,000.

01:01:44.000 You know, it'll say on that.

01:01:46.000 And the black rhinos, the ones that you hunted, are different or the same as this?

01:01:51.000 This particular...

01:01:52.000 That's the one I hunted.

01:01:53.000 That's the one you hunted.

01:01:53.000 Yeah.

01:01:54.000 So there's a few thousand of them.

01:01:55.000 Yeah, that subspecies in Namibia.

01:01:57.000 And is there other black rhinos?

01:01:59.000 There's different kinds of black rhinos?

01:02:00.000 Yeah, there's different subspecies of black rhinos.

01:02:02.000 Like, for instance, when you were saying the one that was going extinct, the one that went extinct, there was a western black rhino that went extinct.

01:02:09.000 And what is the difference in these rhinos?

01:02:11.000 Like, how can they tell the difference?

01:02:12.000 Is it just genetics?

01:02:13.000 It's just different text.

01:02:14.000 How many different things about them?

01:02:15.000 You know, different...

01:02:16.000 Like a mule deer versus a blacktail?

01:02:18.000 No, no, no.

01:02:19.000 That would be two different species.

01:02:21.000 But it's really close.

01:02:22.000 That would be a desert mule deer versus a Rocky Mountain mule deer.

01:02:25.000 Oh, okay.

01:02:26.000 Something like that.

01:02:26.000 Well, like, mule deer are weird where the designation is the I-5.

01:02:31.000 Like, east of the I-5, it's a black-tailed west, it's a mule deer.

01:02:35.000 Yeah, that's another...

01:02:36.000 Right there along that...

01:02:37.000 But they're essentially the same animal.

01:02:38.000 Right there, they could be essentially the same.

01:02:39.000 It's just like this is transferring over.

01:02:41.000 Right, but if you shot one, it would be considered a mule deer in a specific location.

01:02:46.000 If you shot the exact same animal across the I-5...

01:02:50.000 It'd be a black tail. 0.83

01:02:51.000 That day he's a black tail, yeah.

01:02:52.000 So it's not like that with these rhinos, it's more...

01:02:54.000 No, you're talking about more...

01:02:56.000 Distinct diversity.

01:02:58.000 Yeah, distinct, like I said, here, here, here.

01:03:01.000 Okay, okay.

01:03:02.000 They're total separate populations.

01:03:04.000 So they have these animals, they know that there's a fairly healthy amount of them, and they're trying to maintain and grow the population.

01:03:13.000 Right.

01:03:14.000 Through the resource of the actual animal themselves.

01:03:17.000 So by auctioning off this big game hunt and spending $350,000, they then take all this money.

01:03:23.000 It's accounted for very meticulously.

01:03:25.000 It all goes into this conservation fund.

01:03:27.000 It all pays for, what, rangers?

01:03:30.000 All sorts of different things.

01:03:31.000 It went into the Namibian Game Products Trust Fund, and it has a list of these things.

01:03:35.000 You could pull that up, too, I'm sure, if you wanted to.

01:03:37.000 But it's a list of things.

01:03:38.000 You're going through it.

01:03:40.000 Okay.

01:03:40.000 So, you know, basically, it had, for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife to allow the importation of it, they had to find a non-detriment finding, meaning that the taking of this animal is not detriment to the species, and it had to have a positive finding as well, positive benefit, okay, to the species.

01:03:56.000 So do you have this animal now?

01:03:58.000 No.

01:03:59.000 Are you eventually going to get it?

01:04:00.000 Yes.

01:04:01.000 So are they stuffing it for you?

01:04:03.000 No, it has to go through a process before it's imported in the United States.

01:04:06.000 I mean, it's only been, I don't know how long, it's not been a month since I hunted the animal.

01:04:11.000 So they take it and they're going to ship it to you?

01:04:14.000 Do they taxiderm?

01:04:16.000 No, that'll happen over here.

01:04:17.000 Okay.

01:04:18.000 And you will just put this in your house or something like that?

01:04:21.000 Well, I mean, like I said, I've said this a lot of times.

01:04:25.000 I have to look through what the permit actually allows me to do as my personal property.

01:04:29.000 I can't ever sell it.

01:04:30.000 I can't do stuff like that.

01:04:31.000 But what I want to do, and I'm going to talk to them about this once it gets here, is can I loan it to different museums, put it on display at different places to keep the awareness alive about it?

01:04:42.000 I never was in this because I was like, oh, I can't wait to have a black rhino.

01:04:46.000 That's not what I was in this for.

01:04:48.000 What were you in it for?

01:04:49.000 What was your ultimate goal when you decided to spend that money and take that trip and shoot that rhino?

01:04:54.000 I have a belief system in sustainable use, and within that, hunting is a tool of sustainable use to keep animals alive.

01:05:04.000 So did you recognize that this was a high-profile situation and it would be something that you could use as a platform?

01:05:11.000 No.

01:05:11.000 I didn't recognize that.

01:05:12.000 I mean, I was told that day when we had the auction that my name wouldn't come out for a while.

01:05:17.000 It came out, like, within a few hours of the auction.

01:05:20.000 Somebody tweeted it.

01:05:21.000 It wasn't even supposed to be spoke of right then.

01:05:23.000 And then it came out, and I kind of felt, to be honest, bullied.

01:05:27.000 You know, I was like, you know, I believed in this enough to...

01:05:32.000 Be a part of it now.

01:05:33.000 Now it's out.

01:05:34.000 It is what it is.

01:05:35.000 I can't do anything about it.

01:05:36.000 It wasn't my desire.

01:05:37.000 I knew it would eventually come out.

01:05:40.000 Dude, no, I don't think anybody could have expected what would happen with it.

01:05:44.000 I mean, I didn't expect to the degree of it.

01:05:46.000 I've seen other things, but I've never seen anything to this degree.

01:05:48.000 Well, we live in a new world.

01:05:50.000 We live in a world of instant outrage and instant reaction to that outrage.

01:05:56.000 If this had taken place 20 years ago, you really had no recourse.

01:06:01.000 No one, I mean, even if they got upset, they got upset in their small groups.

01:06:04.000 They read the paper together like someone, did you see this?

01:06:06.000 This guy shot a rhino. 1.00

01:06:07.000 Fuck that guy. 1.00

01:06:08.000 And that'd be the end of it. 1.00

01:06:09.000 There was no way to reach out to you.

01:06:11.000 Yeah, now that conversation is for everybody to see.

01:06:14.000 Yes.

01:06:14.000 For everybody to see, everybody to join in, everybody to take the moral high ground, and very few people to take a nuanced, objective look at it and realize, wow, there's a lot of gray area, like many things in life.

01:06:29.000 I'll tell you a real interesting deal.

01:06:30.000 When it first happened, some children whose parents were activists, they wrote me a letter about why I was doing this.

01:06:39.000 They told you why you were doing it?

01:06:40.000 No, they asked me not to do it, and they did this letter, okay?

01:06:44.000 And I did this interview with these kids.

01:06:46.000 I had, like, this guy was doing a documentary about them or whatever came down and asked me if I would talk to them.

01:06:53.000 And they're kids, which, you know, I understood that.

01:06:55.000 I was very nice and very calm and cool with them.

01:06:58.000 I have been with everybody, really.

01:06:59.000 And...

01:07:03.000 They asked me a lot of questions that were really, you know, to me, I considered, you know, most like common knowledge type questions.

01:07:09.000 But then I asked them this. 0.96

01:07:12.000 And I said, if there's three black rhinos left, okay, and let's say it's one male or two males and a cow or whatever, and one's killing the other two, can you shoot that black rhino? 0.99

01:07:29.000 Okay. 0.99

01:07:31.000 Okay, they're going to be gone.

01:07:32.000 You don't have time to think about it.

01:07:34.000 This is the moment. 1.00

01:07:35.000 Can you kill that rhino to save the species? 1.00

01:07:39.000 Okay? 0.99

01:07:40.000 And the boy, the older boy, kind of got it.

01:07:43.000 This is deep in the conversation.

01:07:45.000 This is after, you know, 30 minutes in.

01:07:47.000 He was kind of coming around, okay?

01:07:49.000 But the girl was, she was younger, and she was pretty much stuck with it.

01:07:52.000 But I pressed around.

01:07:53.000 I was like, well, you know, look, you've asked me all these questions.

01:07:55.000 I've answered everything.

01:07:56.000 Can you do this?

01:07:58.000 You know, if you really believe in the survival of these black rhinos.

01:08:00.000 And she's like, I just don't know.

01:08:02.000 And I was like, well, that's why we have experts that do know and that they exist and that they're in charge of this. 0.99

01:08:08.000 And so you yourself, Joe, could you kill that black rhino? 1.00

01:08:11.000 Would you kill that black rhino to save the species? 1.00

01:08:13.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:08:14.000 Okay.

01:08:15.000 It just immediately, immediately.

01:08:16.000 It just seems like if one of them is trying to kill the other one and you're talking about it, it's a pragmatic answer to a complex question.

01:08:25.000 That's right.

01:08:26.000 You have to do it.

01:08:27.000 You have to do it.

01:08:28.000 Or you have to let them go extinct.

01:08:29.000 Those are your two options.

01:08:30.000 That's your options right now.

01:08:31.000 Yeah, that's it.

01:08:31.000 Okay.

01:08:32.000 If the one kills the other one, and who knows if he dies in the process, because it's not like the one's going to let the other one kill him.

01:08:38.000 They're going to fight.

01:08:39.000 They're going to impale each other with those fucking horns. 1.00

01:08:41.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:08:42.000 They might get infected and die, and there might be the end of it right there.

01:08:45.000 So, to me, that's, look, albeit an extremely oversimplified question to a very complicated thing.

01:08:54.000 Right.

01:08:54.000 Okay, when you're dealing with these wildlife experts that put this together, that's kind of the question they're going through.

01:09:02.000 Okay, that's part of the question.

01:09:04.000 But it's very complicated when you start putting value on things and trying to figure out which rhinos, which way, which method, which place, which community with all these things.

01:09:15.000 That's the big question.

01:09:17.000 What are we going to do?

01:09:20.000 To keep these animals alive, and unfortunately for these animals, they cannot afford the morality of the average person and the average person's thought process on this.

01:09:33.000 They can't afford it.

01:09:34.000 They need experts, they need money, and they need a value.

01:09:39.000 Anytime you put a hunting license on something, you put a value on it.

01:09:42.000 Okay, one time, I don't know, man, the second season of Professionals, we went down to Paraguay, and we went and darted jaguars.

01:09:49.000 Okay?

01:09:50.000 They didn't have hunting...

01:09:52.000 When you say darted them, you're talking about tranquilizing them?

01:09:55.000 We darted, tranquilized them.

01:09:55.000 So they could tag them, is that what they did?

01:09:57.000 Or we put collars on them, radio collars, and we moved one.

01:10:00.000 Okay?

01:10:03.000 And we moved it to get it out of an area where it was a threat of being poached by the local Indian tribe.

01:10:08.000 Unfortunately, two weeks later, it went back to that same area, and they killed it.

01:10:13.000 They're like, we'll give you the jaguar hide, but we want $80 for this collar.

01:10:21.000 It meant nothing to them.

01:10:23.000 It had no value on it.

01:10:25.000 Now, had that jaguar been worth $20,000 or anything to their community, they'd have done anything in the world to protect it.

01:10:33.000 It's that simple.

01:10:34.000 I mean, if you have gold running around in your backyard, you're not going to protect it?

01:10:41.000 That's why I have such a real issue with people not understanding this.

01:10:45.000 Just imagine this.

01:10:46.000 This rhino's horn on the black market's worth Whatever.

01:10:50.000 It's worth three times the weight of gold.

01:10:52.000 Something like that.

01:10:53.000 That's insane.

01:10:54.000 Okay.

01:10:55.000 All right.

01:10:55.000 Now, that's on a black illegal market.

01:10:58.000 Now, if you put a value of it three times the weight of gold on an illegal market, and you have no value on it in a legal market, what's going to happen?

01:11:07.000 People are going to kill it and they're going to sell it illegally.

01:11:09.000 Okay, let's talk about, you know, I mean, I don't know how far I'm going with this and if it's even the right direction, but if you just put a blanket no, okay, how well would that work like in something like keeping people from doing drugs?

01:11:24.000 How well did it work on alcohol in the 20s?

01:11:27.000 Okay, blanket no.

01:11:28.000 And then you take enforcement out of it.

01:11:30.000 How well would it work?

01:11:30.000 It doesn't work at all.

01:11:31.000 Okay.

01:11:32.000 Okay.

01:11:32.000 In Paraguay, they had no way to enforce their laws.

01:11:36.000 They had no people out in the field doing it.

01:11:38.000 So what's going to happen?

01:11:39.000 It's not worth anything.

01:11:41.000 The animals are going to get poached.

01:11:42.000 Because they're worth something dead.

01:11:43.000 Well, those weren't even worth anything.

01:11:45.000 Nobody was paying them anything for it.

01:11:46.000 They were a negative benefit to the community.

01:11:49.000 They were worried about our goat.

01:11:51.000 They were killing goats.

01:11:52.000 They were killing whatever. 0.70

01:11:53.000 So they're killing them just to protect their lifestyle.

01:11:55.000 And their life, look, I mean, the idea of death by wild animal isn't something we deal with here in the United States.

01:12:02.000 Rarely.

01:12:03.000 Very rarely. 0.88

01:12:03.000 But, I mean, you're not walking down the streets of L.A. thinking, this mountain lion's gonna frickin' rip my head off today. 0.88

01:12:08.000 Okay, if you're in, like, Zambia, and you're rolling down in the evening time in rural Zambia, okay, and you're on a bike, you're thinking lion might be around here.

01:12:20.000 Okay, and you know people have been killed by lion.

01:12:23.000 It's a different thing.

01:12:25.000 Okay.

01:12:25.000 Now, let's say you live out there, Joe.

01:12:27.000 This lion's worth nothing to you, alive, okay?

01:12:30.000 Now you go out there, it's killed some of your livestock, your property's damaged.

01:12:35.000 What are you going to do? 0.99

01:12:36.000 You're going to kill the lion. 1.00

01:12:37.000 Okay. 1.00

01:12:38.000 It's killed your child.

01:12:40.000 What are you going to do? 1.00

01:12:41.000 You're going to kill the lion. 1.00

01:12:43.000 Okay. 0.98

01:12:43.000 Now, if you know there's no benefit coming, why not poison around here? 0.98

01:12:47.000 Let's put some poison in this. 0.99

01:12:48.000 We'll kill the whole pride. 0.99

01:12:51.000 And that's what they wind up doing. 0.99

01:12:52.000 That's exactly what they wind up doing.

01:12:54.000 A lot of places.

01:12:55.000 People, I think, have a real issue with monetary, like attaching money, attaching a monetary value to life.

01:13:05.000 People have a real issue with lots of things.

01:13:10.000 The thing I learned about my situation was you don't realize how many people hate you just because of whatever you believe.

01:13:17.000 If you're a Christian, there's people that hate you.

01:13:19.000 If you're Muslim, there's people that hate you. 0.99

01:13:20.000 If you're an atheist, there's people that hate you. 1.00

01:13:22.000 If you're gay, there's people that hate you. 0.67

01:13:23.000 If you're this, they're just not exposed to that level of hate.

01:13:27.000 I got exposed to the level of hate that people have for me.

01:13:31.000 Back in the day, you lived your life, I lived my life.

01:13:34.000 It was almost more of a libertarian existence because I would never have anything to do with you.

01:13:39.000 And today...

01:13:41.000 On social media, I'm in a room with thousands of people that hate me any time I get on it.

01:13:47.000 They hated me to the extent my Facebook's gone, dude.

01:13:50.000 Did you delete it?

01:13:50.000 No!

01:13:51.000 I can't get on it.

01:13:52.000 It won't allow me to get on it.

01:13:53.000 What do you mean?

01:13:54.000 It won't allow me to get on it.

01:13:55.000 If I do it right now, I'll do it in front of you.

01:13:56.000 It says it's disabled.

01:13:57.000 I put my email address in there.

01:14:01.000 It says it doesn't recognize it.

01:14:02.000 So did somebody hack it?

01:14:03.000 It had to have.

01:14:04.000 Did you contact Facebook?

01:14:06.000 I mean, yeah, through all these things, through their method.

01:14:09.000 And then I'm just like, I'm done with it.

01:14:10.000 You know, I couldn't figure it out.

01:14:11.000 I'm done.

01:14:11.000 I'm not the computer genius or wherever.

01:14:13.000 And I had tons of people, under 20,000 people, you know.

01:14:16.000 And there were just mainly a lot of those were 100, but it was gone.

01:14:20.000 And so they took my voice out of it right there.

01:14:24.000 In a lot of ways, it was good for my family.

01:14:26.000 If you look at it like these four walls, like Joe's got to go home, he's got to be with his kids, his family, right?

01:14:32.000 My mom, my wife would go on there, they'd look at all the hate and it'd make them upset.

01:14:36.000 I mean, I got skin thicker than the rhino now.

01:14:38.000 You could have whoever in the world sitting over here telling me whatever.

01:14:42.000 And I mean...

01:14:43.000 Is it because of this?

01:14:44.000 Absolutely.

01:14:45.000 What was it like when it first started coming at you?

01:14:47.000 A different story.

01:14:49.000 What was that like?

01:14:50.000 Like just a giant, you know, different, like raging wall of emotion.

01:14:56.000 You know, like I'm angry, I'm upset, you know, things like that.

01:14:59.000 But you realize that what made me feel a lot better was a lot of the people that would just say, you know, karma type threats, you know, wish you'd die, hope you get cancer, whatever.

01:15:09.000 I would respond to them when they'd send me those messages.

01:15:12.000 Nine out of ten, maybe even more than that, said it was just a knee-jerk reaction and apologized.

01:15:16.000 They realized there was a human on the other side of it.

01:15:19.000 So you think when they see you on CNN, or they see you on a website, or they see your face, a photograph, they don't necessarily think of you as a person?

01:15:28.000 No.

01:15:28.000 They think of you as an expression of something they disagree with.

01:15:32.000 Here's a name on something I don't like.

01:15:36.000 And you went back and forth to these people for a few days, or how long did you do?

01:15:41.000 I mean, usually the first message.

01:15:43.000 Really?

01:15:44.000 Yeah, I mean, if I still had it, I could show you.

01:15:46.000 How much time did you spend doing this?

01:15:47.000 Lots.

01:15:49.000 I cared.

01:15:49.000 Did you ever reach out to Ricky Gervais?

01:15:51.000 I would.

01:15:51.000 I'd love to talk to him about it.

01:15:53.000 I mean, look, he's a comedian.

01:15:55.000 He can probably get it.

01:15:55.000 I searched his name, you know.

01:15:57.000 Well, he loves animals.

01:15:58.000 Yeah, I searched his name and it came up right underneath Ricky Martin.

01:16:01.000 It's probably a good place for him.

01:16:03.000 How dare you?

01:16:05.000 He's living la vida loca.

01:16:06.000 Leave him alone in Miami.

01:16:08.000 Look, man, look, whatever.

01:16:10.000 I'm open-minded to it.

01:16:11.000 Honestly, I think if he was sitting here with me, you've sat with him, what would he say?

01:16:15.000 Well, when I talked to him, he didn't have any problem with what I was doing.

01:16:19.000 I told him that I hunt for food.

01:16:21.000 I mean, I don't hunt things that I don't eat.

01:16:23.000 And I practice very hard, make sure that if I shoot something it dies quick.

01:16:29.000 That's very ethical.

01:16:30.000 And there was really not much you could say.

01:16:32.000 I don't even know if he's a vegetarian.

01:16:33.000 Is he a vegetarian?

01:16:34.000 I don't know, man.

01:16:35.000 Look, man, I'm living my life with my kids, bro.

01:16:37.000 I understand.

01:16:38.000 I've had arguments with people online.

01:16:40.000 I found out that they had a dog. 1.00

01:16:41.000 And I'm like, what do you feed your dog, motherfucker? 1.00

01:16:43.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:16:43.000 What are you feeding your dog? 1.00

01:16:44.000 Angel farts?

01:16:45.000 Honestly, Joe, if you could bring him here, if you could get that dude to come here and sit with me, I would love nothing more than it.

01:16:51.000 You know, any of them.

01:16:52.000 I'll talk to anybody about it.

01:16:53.000 Do you think that there's like a certain social currency to standing up for animals, certain social currency to taking that photo, putting it online and going, how dare you?

01:17:02.000 What do you think, man?

01:17:03.000 I think there is.

01:17:04.000 Absolutely there is.

01:17:05.000 I think people do certain things not just because they believe it, but also they put it out there because they want everyone to know they believe it, because it jazzes them up.

01:17:15.000 Honestly, if he was here, I would show him nothing but love.

01:17:19.000 I would care about him as a human being. 0.99

01:17:21.000 And, you know, he called me a murdering scumbag. 0.99

01:17:23.000 Is that what he did? 1.00

01:17:24.000 How dare he?

01:17:25.000 Yeah, whatever.

01:17:26.000 What about the rhino? 0.93

01:17:26.000 You shot a murderer. 0.93

01:17:27.000 Yeah, it doesn't matter. 0.82

01:17:28.000 You're like a cop.

01:17:28.000 The facts doesn't matter.

01:17:29.000 You're like a rhino cop.

01:17:30.000 So, look, if he was here, I'd hug him. 0.76

01:17:33.000 I'd be nice to him.

01:17:34.000 I'd tell jokes with him.

01:17:36.000 I understand.

01:17:37.000 Here's the thing.

01:17:37.000 I understand that I was in front of him as an agenda.

01:17:40.000 He's a comedian, and he's a professional comedian, and he feels passionate about stuff.

01:17:48.000 He can say what he wants, and I'm sure he can take a joke as good as he can give a joke.

01:17:52.000 I would hope so.

01:17:53.000 So I don't have a problem with that.

01:17:56.000 I understand that I was just something for him to talk about that day.

01:17:59.000 It doesn't bother me.

01:18:00.000 I don't take any of this stuff maybe just a tad personally.

01:18:03.000 It would be inhuman to say I don't take all of it personally.

01:18:06.000 I take some of it personally.

01:18:07.000 You know what I mean?

01:18:09.000 That's a very healthy approach to it.

01:18:11.000 That'll definitely help you.

01:18:13.000 I mean, what are you going to do?

01:18:14.000 Are we going to sit there and look at all the anger and hate in the world and let that change me?

01:18:17.000 If you sit with the devil, you don't change.

01:18:19.000 I mean, the devil doesn't change, you do.

01:18:21.000 The consequences of actually acquiring food are just so much more brutal than people want to imagine.

01:18:29.000 Chicken McNuggets aside, even getting grain.

01:18:32.000 I watched this thing on the machines that they use to get corn and wheat from fields. 1.00

01:18:40.000 Those fucking things are brutal. 1.00

01:18:42.000 They chop down everything that's in that field. 1.00

01:18:45.000 And they catch fawns and rabbits and squirrels.

01:18:49.000 Anything that gets in front of those wheels just gets churned up and sliced apart.

01:18:55.000 So the only way you're going to buy grain is, I mean, you're going to buy it in a store unless you're growing your own grain and picking it by hand.

01:19:03.000 You're most likely involved in some sort of animal murder, whether you want to believe it or not.

01:19:09.000 It's the reality of being a human being in these complicated times.

01:19:13.000 They're trying to disconnect us from...

01:19:16.000 We're good to go.

01:19:36.000 I look at things that don't make any sense and I just go, how is this?

01:19:40.000 How come this doesn't make any sense and so many people just accept it?

01:19:44.000 You just hit it.

01:19:46.000 You said, as a person who thinks about things a lot, okay?

01:19:50.000 You didn't say a person to react to everything that I see immediately, okay?

01:19:55.000 You have the benefit of time, Joe.

01:19:57.000 You have the benefit of self-reflection.

01:20:00.000 I read about you a little bit.

01:20:02.000 You said you did the self-deprivation chambers, all these things, right?

01:20:05.000 You're trying to find out who you are as a person.

01:20:07.000 And you're trying to find out where you're at as a person.

01:20:09.000 You're questioning things.

01:20:10.000 You're questioning thoughts and feelings and emotions you have.

01:20:14.000 I don't think, by and large, a lot of people that live everyday life...

01:20:19.000 Have the opportunity to do that or take the opportunity to do that I don't think a lot of people do I think you're probably right and I think there's also the reality that we're all under the influence of the momentum of culture and when cultures when cultures accepts certain types of behavior and Certain types of behavior are not prevalent like hunting that those types of behavior that aren't prevalent get mocked or minimalized or misunderstood And I think when you deal with the system that we all operate under,

01:20:48.000 there's a few people that are really aware of what the system really truly is.

01:20:53.000 And those are the people that work in the slaughterhouses.

01:20:54.000 Those are the people that breed the cattle. 1.00

01:20:56.000 Those are the people that work in these insane, confined chicken factories where they just stuff all these fucking animals. 0.99

01:21:02.000 Where they've made laws where you're not allowed to take photos. 0.99

01:21:06.000 You can go to jail if you work in one of those plants or if you sneak into one of those plants and take photos of the ridiculously inhumane conditions that these chickens and these pigs.

01:21:16.000 Different states have made laws because it's inconvenient for people to know the truth.

01:21:22.000 It's, like, no different than the outrage that people had when you couldn't show coffins, when you couldn't show American flag-draped coffins.

01:21:31.000 They were putting a ban on them in the media after the Gulf War started, and people were freaking out.

01:21:36.000 They were like, look... 0.99

01:21:37.000 This is my fucking family dying over there. 0.99

01:21:39.000 You're telling me you can't take a picture of the coffin that my family's on because you don't want people to know the reality of people dying? 1.00

01:21:45.000 Well, that's insane.

01:21:46.000 It's information.

01:21:47.000 It's all it is.

01:21:48.000 And when they're trying to keep information from you in any way, shape, or form, that's always bad. 0.99

01:21:52.000 Make your own fucking opinions. 0.98

01:21:54.000 Devise your own opinion or come up with your own opinions on things. 0.99

01:21:57.000 But you have to be able to have access to information to have a really informed opinion.

01:22:02.000 Well, and there's not been a day and age that I think we've had more access to information, and it seems like people would rather get outraged than informed. 0.99

01:22:09.000 Well, it takes a long time to get informed about this shit. 0.99

01:22:14.000 I agree. 1.00

01:22:15.000 To be fully informed, yes.

01:22:17.000 You could have watched these CNN stuff that we did, and you'd have had a pretty good idea.

01:22:23.000 A decent idea.

01:22:24.000 Okay, and at least if you read into the article, you'd know where to go.

01:22:28.000 You can go to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife page and look at it.

01:22:31.000 But what happens is people have strong emotions about it.

01:22:35.000 And then they have opinion bias.

01:22:38.000 I don't agree with that because it doesn't back up what I believe.

01:22:41.000 And you can get confirmation bias online going to a hundred different websites that are anti-hunting and anti...

01:22:48.000 The world's foremost experts agreed on it.

01:22:52.000 And again, I'm not trying to get away from what...

01:22:55.000 The point you're trying to make is that...

01:22:58.000 People don't have a real idea of the reality of the machine that feeds us.

01:23:04.000 Exactly.

01:23:05.000 Okay.

01:23:05.000 They don't have...

01:23:06.000 They don't understand that...

01:23:09.000 They don't have a personal relationship when they bite into a quarter pounder with the cow in the way that my grandmother, my great-grandmother who ran a dairy, would.

01:23:18.000 They look at a quarter pounder the way most people look at a potato.

01:23:21.000 Okay.

01:23:21.000 This doesn't seem like anything.

01:23:22.000 And the people...

01:23:24.000 Look...

01:23:27.000 You know, just being around you seem pretty open-minded about things.

01:23:31.000 I don't see, as you looking across here, the person that's going to judge me for whatever, okay?

01:23:37.000 The people who are judging us about this, by and large, are doing it while eating a hamburger and having a Louis Vuitton purse, okay?

01:23:45.000 They need to look within themselves.

01:23:48.000 And say, is the enjoyment that I get from having this Louis Vuitton purse or eating this hamburger, what is different about that enjoyment than Joe Blow gets from shooting a duck?

01:24:03.000 Okay?

01:24:04.000 He's enjoying hunting.

01:24:06.000 He's enjoying shooting a duck.

01:24:07.000 Okay?

01:24:08.000 You're enjoying...

01:24:09.000 I'm loving this burger.

01:24:11.000 I'm loving this steak.

01:24:12.000 I'm loving these shoes I got.

01:24:13.000 I'm loving my leather seats and my BMW. Okay?

01:24:16.000 Okay?

01:24:17.000 Is your enjoyment more validated than his?

01:24:21.000 What's the difference here?

01:24:22.000 It's a good point.

01:24:23.000 It is a good point that you will get people that are absolutely outraged about hunting or absolutely outraged about the death of any animal, and yet they're driving down the street and there's just murdered animal skins everywhere you look.

01:24:37.000 On people's shoes, on people's bodies, in their cars, in their briefcases.

01:24:42.000 Their briefcase is covered in animal skins. 0.99

01:24:44.000 Every convenience store you stop at has meat sticks and those fucking ground-up things that they turn into burritos. 0.99

01:24:51.000 And every restaurant, everywhere you look is filled with animals. 1.00

01:24:55.000 There is no bounds to the hypocrisy of it.

01:24:57.000 Okay, now if you're a 100% real, legit, true D vegan, okay, who makes sure that on the level of growing in his backyard, he's not affecting any animal's life other than his house took up a place that an animal could live, okay?

01:25:12.000 So, if you're that guy, I kind of, alright, you know, I get you.

01:25:17.000 If you're not that guy...

01:25:19.000 Then where are you at with this?

01:25:21.000 If you're not going to go over to Africa or you're not going to go to Asia, you're not going to go to the third world and either help fund or personally put your butt on the ground and live to save these things and protect these things and care about these things and be intimately involved with their life,

01:25:42.000 then what are you doing?

01:25:45.000 Where are you at with this personally?

01:25:47.000 People need to ask themselves these questions.

01:25:49.000 What value does a black rhino have to you?

01:25:54.000 It's another interesting aspect that people get upset if you do enjoy what you're doing.

01:25:59.000 If you enjoy hunting.

01:26:01.000 If somehow or another you get some sort of pleasure out of this hunt, then it's bad.

01:26:05.000 What they would like you to do is do it with total somber...

01:26:09.000 Thinking and very, you know, I would say lots of, you know, probably the majority of hunters have absolutely, at least in the very minimal, a certain degree of reverence for the animal.

01:26:21.000 And like someone like Jim, who, you know, I have never met anybody that had more reverence for an animal.

01:26:27.000 Okay?

01:26:28.000 And like, so, and I learned a ton from being around him.

01:26:34.000 And he was, he went to Extremes.

01:26:39.000 We would talk about this.

01:26:40.000 We're representing hunters on this show.

01:26:43.000 We're representing hunters.

01:26:45.000 Hunters are going to watch this.

01:26:48.000 We would talk about what we thought.

01:26:51.000 We wouldn't step over the animal.

01:26:54.000 Okay.

01:26:55.000 Now, you know, look.

01:26:56.000 You mean if it's down?

01:26:57.000 Yeah.

01:26:58.000 We wouldn't step over.

01:26:59.000 We'd walk around them.

01:27:00.000 We'd do everything.

01:27:01.000 We'd care for them. 1.00

01:27:03.000 We'd try to kill them as quickly and painlessly as possible. 1.00

01:27:08.000 We'd talk and learn everything we could about them. 1.00

01:27:11.000 Why would you not step over them?

01:27:12.000 We just didn't think it was right.

01:27:14.000 So you had a conversation about this?

01:27:16.000 Lots.

01:27:17.000 Yeah.

01:27:17.000 Okay.

01:27:18.000 And like, you know, understand like when we cut, the cameras are off and now we're dealing with it.

01:27:22.000 We're moving around the animal to cut it apart, to quarter it, right?

01:27:25.000 To take care of the meat.

01:27:26.000 All right.

01:27:27.000 But right now at this moment, especially the immediate moment after the life of the animal is taken and leading up to it.

01:27:35.000 Like I said, I said on the show, I was emotional after I shot the rhino.

01:27:39.000 If anybody looks at it, you can go back and look at the Nepal episodes we did.

01:27:43.000 We went to Nepal.

01:27:44.000 We hunted with these Nepalese Sherpas, okay, who lots of them were Buddhist.

01:27:49.000 So you understand Buddhism.

01:27:51.000 A lot of them didn't want to harm animals, right?

01:27:54.000 And they hunted and they understood it, okay, in a real way.

01:27:57.000 How does that work if they hunt but they're Buddhists? 1.00

01:28:00.000 They took people to kill it.

01:28:02.000 They were part of it.

01:28:03.000 Did they eat it?

01:28:04.000 Those people ate it.

01:28:06.000 Those people ate it.

01:28:06.000 The Buddhists ate it.

01:28:08.000 You're on the side of the mountain.

01:28:09.000 You're surviving.

01:28:11.000 There's just no other options.

01:28:12.000 They eat rice or whatever.

01:28:14.000 I don't know which ones ate what.

01:28:16.000 But a lot of them ate it.

01:28:17.000 Yeah, I saw people eating it.

01:28:18.000 Because there's not a lot of options for nutrition.

01:28:20.000 Yeah, you're up there and you're living.

01:28:23.000 But anyway, so I'm living with these people.

01:28:25.000 And these people, like...

01:28:29.000 You've developed relationships on a hunt.

01:28:31.000 Would you say the relationships you've developed hunting are any different?

01:28:34.000 Have you noticed anything different about it?

01:28:36.000 They're very intense.

01:28:38.000 You get a bond.

01:28:39.000 You understand a certain aspect of a person.

01:28:43.000 When you you see them tested and like especially a mountain hunt when you go hiking on these mountains and you see people pushed you see people that are willing to pussy out you see people that get get too tired too quick to get mentally weak and you you see people who don't and you see you see what You see what their character is about when they're pushed.

01:29:05.000 When you're in a dangerous situation, when you're forced to be quiet, you're forced to be patient, you're forced to be disciplined, you find out what someone's made of. 0.99

01:29:16.000 Because a lot of people are fucked up. 0.99

01:29:18.000 A lot of people are all ADD'd up. 1.00

01:29:20.000 They can't pay attention and they don't know how to stay focused and be a contributing factor in a successful hunt and that's one of the reasons why I think men in general we have an aversion to people who are Loud but aren't saying anything,

01:29:39.000 call too much attention to themselves, have a distorted perception of their own abilities.

01:29:44.000 I think a lot of that boils down to that would make a very unsuccessful hunter.

01:29:49.000 And I think these things are ingrained in our DNA. I think there's a part of what makes a man a man, or makes a man...

01:29:59.000 What makes a man, what people value in human beings, what people value in masculine traits, is ability to hold your own mud, ability to stay calm under pressure, ability to come through when the chips are on the line.

01:30:15.000 And I think you learn a lot about someone when you hunt with them.

01:30:19.000 You learn a lot about whether or not someone can keep it together when they have the shot lined up, whether they can draw back on a seven-foot black bear and make the right shot.

01:30:29.000 Yeah.

01:30:30.000 And so you have different relationships and different bonds, okay?

01:30:34.000 It's part of, like, you think about people hunting mastodon, hunting whatever, okay?

01:30:39.000 Throughout history, thinking about the Indians, okay?

01:30:41.000 Think about everything, even, you know, Europeans. 0.89

01:30:46.000 There's things that happen on a hunt that aren't going to happen in daily life.

01:30:51.000 They're just not.

01:30:52.000 And especially on a rural, wild situation where you are aware of what's going on around you and your actions have immediate consequences.

01:31:06.000 Okay?

01:31:06.000 Jim and I had a rule.

01:31:08.000 And Jim, I don't know if Jim came up with it or whatever, but we talked about it daily.

01:31:12.000 And it was the five rules of hunting.

01:31:14.000 Safety, safety, safety, safety, safety.

01:31:17.000 That's it.

01:31:18.000 It ain't a successful hunt if somebody breaks their leg or dies.

01:31:21.000 Okay?

01:31:21.000 And we know a lot of people who are dead.

01:31:23.000 Okay.

01:31:24.000 And we would talk about this extensively.

01:31:29.000 And we'd talk about, you know, situations that we'd be in when people, we'd see people go, you know, that would go bad and compounded human error.

01:31:37.000 You learn a lot about who you are.

01:31:40.000 And I've taken tons of people, Joe, that had never hunted before.

01:31:44.000 People who are against it, whatever.

01:31:45.000 I've taken them from all walks of life.

01:31:47.000 From the The wealthiest people that exist on the planet to the poorest people that exist on the planet.

01:31:52.000 And once you get out and you go on that hunt and you're next to it, it doesn't matter if you're a mega famous star.

01:31:59.000 It doesn't matter what you are.

01:32:00.000 You're all on the ground level.

01:32:02.000 You're all on the same level.

01:32:03.000 If you all have packs on, you're all equal and it's about what we're doing.

01:32:08.000 And the emotion of that, that happens in the bonding, you know, like for instance, Joe, if you and I were on the side of the mountain in Pakistan or Mongolia, or we'd be with these people and we're sitting here, we have these bonds with them.

01:32:21.000 We're caring about them.

01:32:23.000 You think about their lives.

01:32:24.000 You think about how you can help them financially.

01:32:25.000 You think about all these things, you know, I mean, you're bringing a lot of money over there.

01:32:29.000 You're bringing a lot of just items like pocket knives and packs and stuff that mean a lot to them.

01:32:34.000 You become personally involved with these people, and you and I become more personally involved.

01:32:38.000 We learn about our lives, learn about things about our family.

01:32:40.000 We talk about these things.

01:32:41.000 We have the time to do it when we're out there, okay?

01:32:43.000 And then you find if there's a situation where, you know, like, you know, you've been in when people can die.

01:32:52.000 Okay, I've been in those situations numerous times, and I've seen people get hurt.

01:32:56.000 I've seen all sorts of things.

01:32:59.000 It's like a real it's you're you're you're tied into who we are as human beings that in a sense to where a lot of times people don't Understand what that is until maybe they're in a car accident, right?

01:33:10.000 They had like a traumatic event or something Okay, that's in most people probably haven't seen something die, you know And so it's you know in real life, you know outside maybe they hit a dog or a squirrel or something, you know Or especially your actions that cause the death of this animal you become Closer to who you are and what life really is.

01:33:30.000 And life, I promise you, becomes more meaningful, I believe, because of this.

01:33:37.000 I think you put more value on life when you've been in these situations.

01:33:40.000 I personally saw the way that I changed as a human throughout it.

01:33:43.000 It definitely broadens the spectrum of what you think are experiences.

01:33:48.000 It gives you a completely different kind of experience.

01:33:51.000 And in a lot of ways, one of the oddest things that I found about hunting is in a lot of ways it's psychedelic in that way.

01:33:59.000 Like there's something about locking eyes with an animal that's in the wild that you're hunting.

01:34:05.000 You're not thinking about anything other than that moment and there's this weird bond that you have with this animal.

01:34:11.000 And when you take that animal and eat it, there's a strange high that comes from it. 0.99

01:34:17.000 And it's not a high like you don't know where the fuck you are, you're drugged up. 0.99

01:34:20.000 There's like an elevated senses sort of a thing. 0.97

01:34:23.000 There's a connection to life itself that's very unusual and it changes your perception of life outside of that.

01:34:31.000 Yeah, I think for each person it's different, but I can tell like when you're talking right now and when you're looking at me as you're talking about it, like you're very in touch with who you are as a person.

01:34:44.000 You're very in touch with how these things have affected you as Joe Rogan or whoever you, you know, the person you are.

01:34:52.000 I think that's one of the best things about hunting is that when you're out there, if it's your family, if it's your friends, you know, hunting is largely a social thing, okay?

01:35:03.000 Now, like, in instances, like, you know, the extreme cases where people who, like, you look throughout history, Kermit Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt, okay, exploring type things, a different type of person.

01:35:14.000 Even Jim is a different type of person.

01:35:16.000 You know, I'm a totally different type of person, okay, when you're drawn to these things.

01:35:20.000 It becomes a real fabric of who you are.

01:35:23.000 What you're talking about, just eating the animal and everything, it's a fabric thing of who you are as a person and you're in touch with what you understand that the actions you took resulted in the death of a very real thing.

01:35:36.000 And the death of that real thing is sustaining your life at that point.

01:35:41.000 And that's the cycle of life.

01:35:43.000 And you're talking about the emotions you feel in it.

01:35:46.000 You know, there's a lot of hunters that wouldn't even...

01:35:49.000 Get it the way that you've got it, because you've thought about it.

01:35:54.000 It's such a complex thing. 0.93

01:35:58.000 And that's why when people ask me, well, how do you feel when you kill it? 0.99

01:36:01.000 How are you going to feel when you kill this black rhino? 0.99

01:36:02.000 It's so important about it. 0.98

01:36:03.000 The two things that were most important to people was how I was going to feel about it and the money aspects of it.

01:36:09.000 It's almost like a crime to have money anymore, I think.

01:36:12.000 People look at money as a negative thing, but everybody wants it.

01:36:15.000 I'm lost with that.

01:36:17.000 And some things I just give up on trying to understand, I guess.

01:36:20.000 Well, the vast majority of people feel like that don't have it.

01:36:24.000 That's what it is.

01:36:25.000 It's almost like looks.

01:36:27.000 Like someone who's really beautiful.

01:36:29.000 Like there's something negative about it. 1.00

01:36:31.000 Like a beautiful woman has to be stupid. 1.00

01:36:33.000 Yeah, if you think making money is hard, try keeping money in this world. 1.00

01:36:36.000 Yeah.

01:36:36.000 It's brutal.

01:36:37.000 Especially if you're spending $350,000 to kill right now. 0.95

01:36:39.000 It goes quick. 0.94

01:36:40.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:36:40.000 It goes really quick.

01:36:42.000 Your show that you did with Jim Shockey, that Uncharted show.

01:36:46.000 I didn't see The Professionals, but I'm a big fan of that Uncharted show.

01:36:50.000 And...

01:36:52.000 It's a really fascinating show because it got to show a side of you.

01:36:57.000 You don't really see too much of on those type of shows. 0.99

01:37:01.000 The Pakistan episode in particular, where you didn't want to go to Pakistan, you had been there before, it's dangerous as fuck. 1.00

01:37:09.000 At that time it was real dangerous. 0.82

01:37:11.000 Your family didn't want you going over there?

01:37:13.000 Nobody wanted me going over there, and I'd been over there twice, you know, and I'd put them, they'd all lived that twice.

01:37:18.000 You know, I'd been over there like pre-drones and post-drones, and the mentality of people were totally different.

01:37:25.000 Really?

01:37:25.000 Absolutely.

01:37:26.000 Drones changed everything, huh?

01:37:27.000 Drones changed everything. 1.00

01:37:29.000 Fuck. 1.00

01:37:29.000 Well, what's the difference? 1.00

01:37:32.000 I mean, we were hunting in very rural areas, okay?

01:37:37.000 We're hunting with people who outside of The advent of the tractor and the cell phone live like biblical times.

01:37:47.000 They could not grasp a lot of the things about our world.

01:37:53.000 A lot of them think that we blew up our own towers.

01:37:58.000 They get media in a different way.

01:38:03.000 They get information in a different way.

01:38:05.000 Their attitude was just very, very different.

01:38:07.000 There was a lot of people that were very, I think it struck a lot of fear in people.

01:38:12.000 And so, it was just a totally different thing.

01:38:16.000 And so, regards to the show, not going over there on that hunt, I'd already been there twice.

01:38:22.000 I felt like, and Brantlin, you know, Jim's son.

01:38:26.000 I don't think Jim wanted Brantlin to go either.

01:38:28.000 Okay?

01:38:29.000 And, you know, we had a very real show, meaning like, We did our very, very best not to contrive too much.

01:38:39.000 There's obviously things like, just like you and I sitting here.

01:38:42.000 I get here, you're like, hey, I want to talk about that tour on the show.

01:38:44.000 Those type of things.

01:38:46.000 We're going to wait until we're filming and talk about this.

01:38:50.000 Anyway, it was a hard decision because I love Jim and I personally didn't have an aversion to going there.

01:38:58.000 Okay, but at this point, I put my family through hell so much I couldn't even tell you.

01:39:03.000 I mean, I've been everywhere on this planet.

01:39:05.000 There are a lot of the deepest, darkest, horrible hell holes you can ever imagine.

01:39:09.000 And I just felt like, you know, it's not...

01:39:12.000 Yeah, I personally thought I put them through enough.

01:39:15.000 Okay, and Branlon, talking to him, somebody I love, is probably my closest friend in a lot of ways.

01:39:22.000 And...

01:39:24.000 Yeah.

01:39:40.000 Sure.

01:39:41.000 He couldn't get a lot of ways until you have somebody you're in love with, truly in love with.

01:39:49.000 A human being you are before you have kids and after you have kids is a two different thing if you're a true father or a true parent.

01:39:55.000 It fundamentally changes you.

01:39:57.000 So my decisions were getting changed by this.

01:40:01.000 And that's a big reason why I didn't continue to do the show.

01:40:04.000 You know, it's like I'd done everything I wanted to do with it.

01:40:07.000 I felt like I ran through the finish line, you know?

01:40:10.000 And you run the marathon, you finish, you just gonna keep running?

01:40:14.000 When you guys were up in, way up north, when you were on that polar bear hunt with the Inuits, the local people...

01:40:25.000 I mean, that was a really crazy scenario.

01:40:28.000 I mean, you guys were essentially watching them hunt, right?

01:40:31.000 You were with them.

01:40:32.000 We hunted, too.

01:40:33.000 You hunted, too.

01:40:34.000 Yes, we were hunting.

01:40:35.000 They kind of didn't show that much on the show.

01:40:37.000 Because the real reason of that was...

01:40:43.000 The idea of Uncharted wasn't to do a hunting show in traditional methods that we just went out and hunted stuff.

01:40:48.000 The idea of Uncharted was to show the way these wild places work and the people who live in them and live off these animals and their value they put on the animal.

01:40:59.000 Okay?

01:41:00.000 And our value for the whole situation.

01:41:02.000 And so at that point You know, that show was more about a culture in a lot of ways that is going away.

01:41:12.000 And hopefully it stays.

01:41:14.000 So what was the choice, what was behind the choice to not show you guys hunting for the polar bear?

01:41:20.000 Because that was a big question that I had.

01:41:22.000 You didn't show any...

01:41:23.000 Jim explained it really good in a Facebook post about it.

01:41:27.000 And, you know, I think it was more about...

01:41:31.000 That, than anything.

01:41:33.000 Well, it's an intense culture.

01:41:34.000 Yes.

01:41:35.000 Extremely intense.

01:41:37.000 They're amazing people, and that's where Jim's hunted there a lot.

01:41:43.000 And those people, he's like the Michael Jordan to a lot of those people.

01:41:49.000 Hunting is a part of their culture.

01:41:50.000 Like, we would be in the airports up there, and those people love Jim.

01:41:54.000 Okay, they love Jim.

01:41:56.000 They know who he is.

01:41:57.000 Absolutely.

01:41:58.000 Absolutely.

01:41:59.000 So in these hunting-rich areas, he becomes a huge famous star?

01:42:03.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:04.000 Up there, it's the most intense.

01:42:07.000 They love him.

01:42:09.000 Well, it's such a primitive...

01:42:11.000 I don't want to say a primitive culture.

01:42:14.000 I mean, it's obviously primitive, but it's long...

01:42:18.000 It's to the bone.

01:42:19.000 Yeah, it's been around a long time, and they've been doing it this way for a long, long, long time.

01:42:24.000 And there's not much room, there's not much wiggle room up there.

01:42:27.000 You're not growing any crops.

01:42:29.000 You know, you're living in intensely cold environments, and there's not a lot of things to hunt, and that polar bear hunt is very important to them.

01:42:37.000 Extremely.

01:42:38.000 And whaling.

01:42:39.000 Whaling.

01:42:40.000 Most important.

01:42:41.000 Narwhal, bowhead, seals, all that.

01:42:45.000 Everybody wore seals.

01:42:47.000 They wore sealed clothes?

01:42:48.000 Mm-hmm.

01:42:48.000 Wow.

01:42:49.000 So, look, these things need to be protected.

01:42:53.000 Those people really get it up there, okay?

01:42:56.000 They really get it.

01:42:57.000 For their life, if they want to continue to live there.

01:42:59.000 They got it.

01:43:00.000 That's it, unless they're going to ship in canned goods.

01:43:02.000 They do all that, but dude, it's a value to them.

01:43:06.000 Okay.

01:43:06.000 It's a value, just like when we brought that rhino meat to that village.

01:43:10.000 You don't think they valued that?

01:43:11.000 What does polar bear taste like?

01:43:12.000 I haven't eaten polar bear.

01:43:14.000 You didn't eat any of it?

01:43:15.000 Dude, it was immediately frozen into a complete rock right then.

01:43:18.000 Like, it was so cold.

01:43:21.000 It was so cold.

01:43:22.000 And Jim's eating polar bear, I think, you know, you could ask him.

01:43:26.000 I didn't get to eat polar bear because we weren't...

01:43:29.000 Those guys literally...

01:43:31.000 The second I shot the polar bear, the guy who was running me, running the hunt, was like, this hunt's over.

01:43:38.000 We're going home.

01:43:39.000 Okay?

01:43:40.000 And we let the polar bear sit there while we were doing the things we were doing for the show.

01:43:46.000 And dude, it froze into a complete rock over, like, I mean less than an hour.

01:43:51.000 It's like brutal and we went all and it was brutal to skin it at the whole situation.

01:43:55.000 How'd they cut it up?

01:43:56.000 Like a chainsaw or something?

01:43:57.000 No, I mean, yeah, you could still get in there and hack and get.

01:44:02.000 It just wasn't like when you've dealt with a bear.

01:44:06.000 Wow.

01:44:07.000 You know, and I've hunted bears.

01:44:09.000 Bears are, you know how bears are.

01:44:11.000 Okay, it's just a different situation, another emotional situation.

01:44:15.000 It's the Klondike bar bear.

01:44:17.000 It's the Coca-Cola bear.

01:44:19.000 I killed this gigantic brown bear.

01:44:24.000 And, you know, people in Alaska get it.

01:44:28.000 By and large.

01:44:29.000 They live with them and understand those bears kill all the other bears.

01:44:32.000 But some people just don't get it.

01:44:36.000 Did you see that television show, The Hunt?

01:44:40.000 No, man.

01:44:41.000 I don't watch much TV anymore.

01:44:42.000 That was the television show that was hosted by the guy from the Metallica.

01:44:46.000 Oh, okay.

01:44:47.000 James Hatfield.

01:44:48.000 He killed a big bear.

01:44:49.000 Well, he didn't even kill the bear.

01:44:51.000 That's what's really crazy.

01:44:52.000 They had a photo of him, and they used this photo of him standing behind...

01:44:57.000 So he didn't shoot that bear?

01:44:58.000 It wasn't him.

01:45:00.000 It was a giant bear.

01:45:02.000 Like, pull it up, Jamie.

01:45:04.000 They thought that it was James Hatfield.

01:45:06.000 It's not.

01:45:07.000 It's another hunter.

01:45:08.000 That looks like him. 1.00

01:45:09.000 And that hunter said, like, hey, that's my fucking bear. 1.00

01:45:11.000 Like, I shot that bear. 1.00

01:45:13.000 Like, Hatfield is a hunter.

01:45:14.000 He does hunt.

01:45:15.000 I think he's not a bear before.

01:45:16.000 He probably has.

01:45:17.000 But the photo that they used to try to keep them out of the Glastonbury Music Festival?

01:45:25.000 Glastonbury Music Festival?

01:45:26.000 See, there's the photo.

01:45:27.000 Yeah.

01:45:28.000 It's not him.

01:45:29.000 Well, it doesn't look like him there.

01:45:30.000 No.

01:45:31.000 You know, now that you look at it that big.

01:45:33.000 No, I mean, there's a guy who said that it, you know, he's like, look, that's me. 0.99

01:45:36.000 That's my fucking bear. 0.98

01:45:37.000 I'll tell you when I hunted it. 1.00

01:45:39.000 God damn, that's a big bear. 0.99

01:45:42.000 Do you enjoy hunting bear? 1.00

01:45:44.000 I enjoy it.

01:45:45.000 I like to eat them.

01:45:47.000 They taste good.

01:45:48.000 But the bear hunt itself, what do you think?

01:45:49.000 It's interesting.

01:45:51.000 But being in the woods with them is amazing.

01:45:53.000 Have you hunted brown bear?

01:45:54.000 No.

01:45:55.000 Would you hunt brown bear?

01:45:56.000 I don't think so, because I'm not going to eat them.

01:45:58.000 Yeah.

01:45:59.000 So far, that's where my head is.

01:46:01.000 I understand the conservation aspect of it.

01:46:04.000 100%, yeah.

01:46:05.000 I mean, if I lived there, if I lived on Kodiak Island and I ran cattle or something like that, I would absolutely hunt them.

01:46:12.000 If I, for whatever reason, needed to be a part of it, I would absolutely hunt them.

01:46:18.000 And they absolutely should be hunting.

01:46:20.000 Would you hunt them to raise awareness about bears?

01:46:22.000 No.

01:46:23.000 No.

01:46:24.000 No, I would talk about it.

01:46:25.000 It's not my job.

01:46:26.000 If I was a professional hunter, maybe.

01:46:28.000 Maybe if I was on television, debating it.

01:46:30.000 Well, see, that's the interesting thing about it is the reasons we hunt.

01:46:34.000 Mm-hmm.

01:46:35.000 It can be a lot of different things.

01:46:36.000 No, I get that.

01:46:38.000 I get that.

01:46:40.000 I mean, the reason why I'm asking a lot of these questions, a lot of it is just because I want to cover all the bases and take it from a bunch of different angles, play devil's advocate as much as possible.

01:46:51.000 But...

01:46:52.000 Hunting bears is a very different thing than hunting whitetail deer.

01:46:56.000 When you're hunting whitetail deer, you're hunting essentially nature's victim. 0.99

01:47:00.000 I mean, these poor bastards, they run around eating berries and looking left and right and jumping away and trying to... 0.99

01:47:05.000 They're at the bottom. 1.00

01:47:07.000 It's become a science in a way hunting them to a lot of people.

01:47:11.000 Yeah.

01:47:11.000 Well, I mean, hunting deer is that you're hunting prey.

01:47:15.000 There's a prey.

01:47:16.000 When you're hunting a bear, you're hunting a predator.

01:47:18.000 Different situation.

01:47:19.000 Totally different.

01:47:20.000 First of all, what's creepy about the bears is they don't make any noise. 0.99

01:47:24.000 This is a big fucking animal. 0.99

01:47:25.000 That was the thing about the rhino. 1.00

01:47:27.000 It was like a cotton ball.

01:47:29.000 Made no noise.

01:47:31.000 Freaky.

01:47:32.000 3,000 pound cotton ball.

01:47:33.000 Dude, I'm telling you, bro.

01:47:35.000 It was just like a bear.

01:47:35.000 It reminded me of a black bear.

01:47:37.000 They just know how to sneak around.

01:47:38.000 Dude, it was in sandy soil.

01:47:39.000 It made no noise.

01:47:40.000 Wow.

01:47:41.000 One time we sat down, we'd walked like, I don't know, I mean, we walked over 20 miles after the Rhino, and this day we had walked about 10 at this point.

01:47:51.000 And, like, the CNN guy was a big dude, bro.

01:47:54.000 Okay, he was a 280, 300-pound man, you know.

01:47:57.000 And he hung in there the first day he threw up, and after seven miles, he started barfing everywhere.

01:48:04.000 But he really wanted to be involved with it, and he got it.

01:48:06.000 And...

01:48:09.000 We were sitting down next to that rhino, 40 yards away.

01:48:12.000 That rhino got up, ran off, and we never heard it.

01:48:16.000 Wow.

01:48:17.000 Ran off.

01:48:18.000 You could see where it just ran.

01:48:21.000 Are they just really good at distributing their weight?

01:48:24.000 It's their place, man.

01:48:25.000 I don't know how they do it.

01:48:27.000 Elephants, you would have heard that thing. 0.98

01:48:28.000 You would have seen it, for one, but you would have heard it.

01:48:30.000 You'd hear them.

01:48:31.000 Rhino, you didn't hear anything.

01:48:34.000 You never hear bear unless they want you to hear them.

01:48:36.000 It's the weirdest thing.

01:48:38.000 But the reason I asked you about the brown bear was because I believe in the United States a brown bear is like similar to the situation with the lion or some of these different animals, you know, whatever you're talking about, you know, certain animals that,

01:48:53.000 you know, strike things.

01:48:54.000 North America is probably the closest thing we got, you know, to that would be the brown bear.

01:48:58.000 Yeah.

01:48:59.000 You know, and they're hunted a lot.

01:49:03.000 People get it, by and large.

01:49:05.000 And I guess to a lesser extent, by and large, people don't have as big a problem with it, I think, as they would African animals. 1.00

01:49:12.000 I don't know why.

01:49:14.000 Yeah.

01:49:15.000 I mean, there's a lot of people that have a really hard time with brown bear.

01:49:18.000 Of course.

01:49:18.000 But there's a lot of people that don't.

01:49:20.000 I mean, you look at, you know, even people who hunt.

01:49:22.000 There's a lot of people in North America that hunt in North America and say, I never go to Africa.

01:49:25.000 You see what I'm saying?

01:49:26.000 So even amongst hunters, you know.

01:49:30.000 Yeah, I think it changes the distinction whether or not you're hunting something you're going to eat or not.

01:49:35.000 And you can eat brown bear, but not that many people do.

01:49:38.000 No, it's a management choice.

01:49:39.000 What does it taste like?

01:49:40.000 Have you ever eaten it?

01:49:41.000 No, dude.

01:49:41.000 I've only shot one, and I hadn't eaten it.

01:49:44.000 It was eaten a rotten sea lion.

01:49:46.000 It's eating stuff that's going to make it pretty rough.

01:49:49.000 It had ate the head off of a giant rotting sea lion. 0.92

01:49:55.000 You want to see the picture?

01:49:56.000 Sure.

01:49:57.000 So it would smell and taste probably a lot like it.

01:50:01.000 Dude, it was an extremely smelly, odor, rough, nasty situation.

01:50:13.000 It was really gross smelling, yeah.

01:50:16.000 For many people who don't know, one of the most delicious meats apparently is black bear that's been eating blueberries.

01:50:22.000 Whoa.

01:50:24.000 Black bear.

01:50:25.000 Oh, God.

01:50:27.000 Just ate the whole head off that thing, huh?

01:50:29.000 Yeah, and that bear had claimed that thing.

01:50:31.000 That's an enormous bear.

01:50:32.000 It was laying right on top of it.

01:50:34.000 Where was this?

01:50:35.000 That was on Unimac Island in Alaska, way out in the Alaskan Peninsula.

01:50:39.000 And that bear was just laying on it.

01:50:41.000 And I flew in out there, and there was a guide who set up the camp, you know?

01:50:46.000 And we flew in, and he hadn't been there that long, and I was just like...

01:50:50.000 Well, what do you think about that bear?

01:50:52.000 Have you seen it?

01:50:52.000 He's like, no.

01:50:53.000 He said, I think it's big.

01:50:54.000 I was like, well, why do you think it's big?

01:50:55.000 He said, because I've seen six other bears come up to that cliff and look down and turn around and leave.

01:51:00.000 He's like, it was his.

01:51:02.000 Wow.

01:51:03.000 This show was interesting, that show The Hunt, because it was one of the few shows that I've ever seen on television that, you know, you have a lot of these subsistence living shows, you know, like Alaska, The Last Frontier, or Life Below Zero, but this wasn't about subsistence at all.

01:51:18.000 It was about hunting to control the populations and trophy hunting.

01:51:22.000 I mean, that's what these people were doing.

01:51:23.000 I mean, they did cook up some backstraps on one episode, some people sliced up some...

01:51:28.000 I don't get the whole thing about, like you said, they go over there.

01:51:31.000 Dude, in these camps, just a trophy hunting, the animals aren't getting wasted.

01:51:36.000 You're getting into what's drawing a person out there to benefit it, regardless of why he's there in his mind, whatever it is.

01:51:42.000 If the result is good, and the result is benefiting it, you're judging his desires to do something on what's going on in your head.

01:51:50.000 You're not looking at the result.

01:51:53.000 Well, you say the meat doesn't get wasted.

01:51:55.000 If you leave it around, it gets eaten by other animals.

01:51:58.000 On a brown bear, that's right.

01:51:59.000 On a brown bear, okay, the other animals eat it.

01:52:01.000 Whatever bears, the biggest predator of other bears, the bears, they eat them. 0.66

01:52:04.000 Yeah, they're all cannibals. 1.00

01:52:06.000 But I'm saying, by and large, throughout hunting, there's only a few animals that don't get eaten.

01:52:13.000 Like I said, lion.

01:52:15.000 Hyena.

01:52:17.000 I've shot some hyena.

01:52:18.000 I wouldn't eat hyena.

01:52:19.000 Baboon.

01:52:20.000 My brother ate the lungs of a baboon.

01:52:24.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:52:24.000 On a bet? 0.71

01:52:25.000 No, because he was hungry.

01:52:26.000 Really?

01:52:27.000 Well, and that's what the locals were eating, and he thought, well, if I'm going to eat a part of it, I'm going to eat their favorite part, and it was the lungs.

01:52:32.000 The locals liked the lungs, huh?

01:52:34.000 Mm-hmm.

01:52:34.000 They boiled them up.

01:52:37.000 What'd he say it tastes like?

01:52:39.000 He didn't act like it was too good.

01:52:41.000 I mean, I didn't get into it.

01:52:42.000 We were in Central African Republic in the middle of, you know, the people before us.

01:52:46.000 They just got the camp back from the Chadian Rebels and shot it up.

01:52:51.000 We weren't really talking about stuff like that.

01:52:53.000 God, baboon lung. 0.70

01:52:55.000 What is the nastiest thing you have eaten when you've been hungry on these camps?

01:52:58.000 Oh, man.

01:53:00.000 Have you ever eaten an animal that you regretted?

01:53:02.000 No, but, I mean, I've eaten things that weren't, like you said about the elephant, dude.

01:53:08.000 By the time we shot the elephant, we were hungry.

01:53:10.000 I mean, we just threw it on coals, and we're just eating it right there.

01:53:12.000 And it wasn't an Astrian thing, it was food.

01:53:14.000 But, you know, I haven't really gotten into something like, you know, Jim eats that igu nook, okay, which is like...

01:53:20.000 What's an igu nook?

01:53:20.000 It's like fermented walrus meat.

01:53:23.000 Oh.

01:53:24.000 It's like the Icelandic people do with sharks. 1.00

01:53:27.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:28.000 They just leave it out there in the vault, yeah.

01:53:30.000 I haven't tried that.

01:53:34.000 But I would try it. 0.99

01:53:36.000 I mean, I've watched Jim eat a lot of crazy crap. 0.99

01:53:38.000 He's living a very odd life, Jim Shockey. 0.99

01:53:41.000 No doubt.

01:53:42.000 I mean, and I say that with all due respect.

01:53:44.000 I'm not saying it in a negative way.

01:53:46.000 If you don't know his show, just, I mean, even if you're not into hunting at all, like you said, that show's not really necessarily about hunting that much.

01:53:54.000 I mean, it is, but it isn't.

01:53:55.000 A lot of it is an in-depth discovery of the cultures that he's visiting.

01:53:59.000 And the emotions that we would go through on the hunt.

01:54:02.000 I mean, I've cried on the show twice, man.

01:54:04.000 I cried previously on The Professionals when I shot a blue sheep because we had a real ordeal and it was just like a relief and an emotional thing and then I cried talking about my granddad one time.

01:54:17.000 That was the Pakistan episode.

01:54:19.000 And so we were very real about it.

01:54:22.000 We wore everything on our sleeve.

01:54:25.000 And what is he trying to do?

01:54:27.000 He's just soaking up a lot of different experiences?

01:54:29.000 Is that his perspective on this?

01:54:32.000 I mean, you'd have to talk to him about it, and I don't even know if he would...

01:54:36.000 You know, I love the guy.

01:54:38.000 I've been with him a lot.

01:54:40.000 And, you know, a lot of our life was connected for over a decade, still is in a way.

01:54:49.000 And he's just...

01:54:52.000 He has a different attitude about it, almost like I would say some of the explorers might have had.

01:55:01.000 In his mind, I'm not saying that he has any delusions of grandeur that that's what he's doing, but he has a different attitude about it.

01:55:08.000 You know, we both wanted to see what's left.

01:55:10.000 Like, I mean, when you're going to Papua New Guinea, you're going to the edge.

01:55:13.000 When you're going to the rural, I mean, we're dealing with people who are, you know, cannibals and believed in witchcraft and all sorts of stuff, you know.

01:55:21.000 What's it like hanging out with cannibals? 1.00

01:55:22.000 I mean, look, I shouldn't put, I didn't deal with a cannibal, but I deal with people who knew cannibals and understood cannibalism. 0.59

01:55:30.000 Right, right.

01:55:31.000 And we're afraid of it.

01:55:34.000 So they knew people...

01:55:36.000 They knew it to be a real thing.

01:55:40.000 For instance, one time I was hunting in Uganda, and we talk about people's different attitudes and stuff.

01:55:49.000 Jim and I went to Uganda on one of the first hunts when it reopened.

01:55:52.000 We were hunting an animal called Sesi Island Sitatunga.

01:55:54.000 What's it called?

01:55:55.000 Sesi Island Sitatunga.

01:55:58.000 What is that?

01:55:59.000 It's an antelope that lives in a swamp on an island.

01:56:03.000 I mean, we value it.

01:56:05.000 We love it.

01:56:06.000 But anyway, so we're over there, and they were talking about this big problem they had over in a certain area of Uganda, on Lake Albert, where...

01:56:17.000 They were buying bush meat from the Congolese, just basically almost like from a grocery store.

01:56:23.000 It would come across on a boat.

01:56:24.000 It would all be cut up and everything.

01:56:26.000 And the way they got the people to quit it was they said the Congolese are selling you human meat, too.

01:56:34.000 And they believed it.

01:56:37.000 Well, Vice did this piece on Liberia, and that was a real issue.

01:56:42.000 In Liberia, they were selling human meat on these food carts on the corner, and this guy recognized it as human meat because he'd eaten human meat.

01:56:52.000 Yeah, there you go. 1.00

01:56:54.000 What the fuck? 0.99

01:56:56.000 That's the difference between, you know, Sherman Oaks. 0.99

01:57:01.000 It's the disconnect of what is really happening.

01:57:05.000 When you think about this, think about this war we have going on versus ISIS, right?

01:57:10.000 And we're sitting over here, and I've been close back to Al-Qaeda and stuff like that when I would go to that part of the world, okay?

01:57:18.000 I've been...

01:57:19.000 You know, on the border of Afghanistan and probably in it and didn't know it, okay?

01:57:24.000 For sure.

01:57:25.000 And it's just, it's a huge disconnect. 0.99

01:57:28.000 If you were over there and you see them selling 12 year old girls naked in a bazaar and having an auction in Syria where they're just selling them as property for sexual abuse, whatever, sex slave. 0.97

01:57:42.000 And it's just they've kidnapped them. 0.98

01:57:43.000 That's what they're doing.

01:57:45.000 If you saw that going down, who isn't going to immediately want this stopped?

01:57:51.000 It's gone.

01:57:52.000 You're going to do it.

01:57:53.000 The different mindset that we have, I'm not saying that people want that to continue in any way, shape, or form, but if you saw it, you'd feel differently about it.

01:58:01.000 No doubt.

01:58:02.000 Well, there's definitely different ways of living in this age, in 2015, and there's some ways that people are living every day just to get by that would horrify most people.

01:58:14.000 And what they consider normal.

01:58:16.000 What they consider normal.

01:58:17.000 Yeah, what is normal?

01:58:18.000 Our normal versus their normal. 0.76

01:58:20.000 Yeah, normal up the Fly River in Papua New Guinea is far different than here.

01:58:28.000 Normal in a pygmy village in Cameroon is far different. 1.00

01:58:32.000 You're talking about recreational drug use, okay?

01:58:36.000 In Papua New Guinea, they do this thing called boo or boo way.

01:58:40.000 And it's like, I don't know exactly what it is, but they take lime and they take something else.

01:58:43.000 They put it in their mouth and it has a reaction.

01:58:45.000 It's like a low grade meth.

01:58:47.000 People from this big all the way up to grown people on it their entire life.

01:58:53.000 They're living in an altered state forever and their mouths are red.

01:58:59.000 Okay, with this stuff.

01:59:00.000 It makes this nasty red blood.

01:59:02.000 So you're out there with a high person that looks like a zombie.

01:59:08.000 Okay?

01:59:09.000 All right.

01:59:10.000 And they eat people sometimes. 0.92

01:59:12.000 They're a high person that looks like a zombie. 0.89

01:59:14.000 Oh, God.

01:59:15.000 See if you can pull up Buway.

01:59:17.000 Okay?

01:59:18.000 Just B-U-W-A-Y, whatever. 0.99

01:59:21.000 Pull up and see if you find it.

01:59:23.000 New Guinea.

01:59:23.000 Papua New Guinea.

01:59:24.000 Okay.

01:59:25.000 All right.

01:59:26.000 And Cameron...

01:59:29.000 In a village one time.

01:59:32.000 I would say every single person that I met that was like, you know, local people on the hunt, I think they were high on weed from the moment they woke up to when they went to sleep.

01:59:44.000 It's just part of their existence.

01:59:46.000 In Cameroon.

01:59:47.000 Yeah.

01:59:48.000 It's just part of their existence.

01:59:49.000 Daily life was so hard, they're looking for any kind of escape out of it.

01:59:55.000 Okay, it's just brutal.

01:59:56.000 I mean, and if you and I had to live in it, if you had, you know, understand, look, I don't judge them.

02:00:01.000 I don't have to live there, right?

02:00:04.000 And, you know, you and I get to go home and sleep in comfortable beds.

02:00:07.000 We get to take a shower every night.

02:00:09.000 I mean, just go, just go.

02:00:11.000 I challenge the average person to go two weeks without a shower.

02:00:14.000 Just go two weeks without a shower.

02:00:16.000 Have one pair of underwear.

02:00:17.000 See what your existence is like.

02:00:20.000 And then do it in the jungle.

02:00:21.000 Then do it in the jungle, man.

02:00:22.000 Of Cameroon.

02:00:23.000 Do it or wherever.

02:00:24.000 Around the mountains in Afghanistan.

02:00:27.000 Or mountains of Pakistan, mountains of Mongolia.

02:00:29.000 What is the scariest place that you ever went to when you were doing all these nutty adventures? 0.78

02:00:32.000 Man, I've had some scary, scary ass incidences of falling.

02:00:37.000 You know, I thought I was going to die from falling twice.

02:00:40.000 And I had a guy save my life in Armenia.

02:00:43.000 Went on two unsuccessful sheep hunts there.

02:00:46.000 And I fell.

02:00:48.000 It was horrible.

02:00:48.000 I thought I was done.

02:00:49.000 How far did you fall?

02:00:50.000 Well, I was sliding on a sheet of ice.

02:00:53.000 And I had my stick.

02:00:56.000 And I kept my stick buried in.

02:00:59.000 And it saved me, and this dude risked his life and came and saved my life.

02:01:02.000 Wow.

02:01:03.000 And so I was looking down at 2,000 feet, and then going off, sliding straight down 2,000 feet, then going off a cliff of a few hundred feet, then going down the bottom.

02:01:11.000 Whoa.

02:01:12.000 And then, you know, I've obviously, I've had animals, you know, the closest animal that ever nearly got me was a black bear.

02:01:17.000 Where was this?

02:01:18.000 That was in Alaska.

02:01:20.000 What happened?

02:01:22.000 Silly stuff, you know, just real thick, and, um...

02:01:28.000 I was hunting with an Athabascan person, you know, half and half, or person, it was half Indian, half white person, and an awesome guy. 0.72

02:01:39.000 And we were walking, we were actually moose hunting, and I had a bear tag.

02:01:43.000 And I looked straight down, and I saw this bear print on the ground.

02:01:51.000 And I looked at it and I said, man, that's like the freshest track I've ever seen in my life.

02:01:56.000 I was like, it must have like just been here.

02:01:59.000 I'm talking to this dude just like closer.

02:02:00.000 You know how you walk when you're hunting, right?

02:02:03.000 And I hear...

02:02:03.000 And I look up and it's climbing the tree right here.

02:02:08.000 Okay, we jumped it.

02:02:09.000 So I threw up and I shot it.

02:02:11.000 Anyway, we tracked it and...

02:02:15.000 It was really, really thick.

02:02:16.000 Have you hunted in Alaska or even like, okay, or British Columbia or anywhere on the coast?

02:02:21.000 British Columbia, I have.

02:02:22.000 Yeah, like those alders, you know, it's just nasty, thick brush, right?

02:02:26.000 Yeah.

02:02:26.000 And, uh, anyway, I couldn't see anything.

02:02:29.000 You know how quiet a blackberry is, right?

02:02:31.000 So the guide sees it, and he sees it, and I can't see it.

02:02:35.000 He's, like, right in front of me. 0.86

02:02:35.000 I'm like, shoot it, you know? 0.86

02:02:36.000 If you can see it, I can't see it. 1.00

02:02:38.000 Boom! 0.99

02:02:38.000 Dude, it flipped out. 0.99

02:02:40.000 It just...

02:02:41.000 Just destroying everything around big seven-foot blackberry, you know?

02:02:46.000 Just destroying everything around it.

02:02:48.000 And it rolled, and I shot in there.

02:02:51.000 Boom, boom, boom! 0.95

02:02:51.000 And I shot in there, and, um... 0.95

02:02:54.000 You know, I thought I'd got it.

02:02:56.000 You know, I felt pretty good about that.

02:02:57.000 And this whole thing happened just like in a few minutes, okay?

02:03:00.000 It just wasn't very long, right?

02:03:02.000 And then I walk over there to see where the bear's at.

02:03:06.000 I'm walking around, like, you know, walking, and I'm looking, looking, looking, looking.

02:03:10.000 And then I look, and the bear's just like right here looking the opposite direction.

02:03:14.000 Okay?

02:03:15.000 So alive.

02:03:16.000 Very.

02:03:17.000 And just turned and just went as I fell down.

02:03:21.000 So you fell back and shot it? 0.92

02:03:23.000 Yeah, I fell back and shot it. 0.94

02:03:24.000 Ooh! 0.96

02:03:25.000 Yeah.

02:03:26.000 And that was just...

02:03:27.000 But, you know, different situations.

02:03:29.000 Like, as far as the country goes, you know, I've had...

02:03:31.000 I've been in a lot of different scary places with regards to, you know, people more than anything.

02:03:38.000 You know, I've hunted Ethiopia a couple times.

02:03:39.000 Some of the people were real weird.

02:03:41.000 Oh, my God. 0.67

02:03:41.000 That's a guy who's got that stuff in his mouth. 0.67

02:03:43.000 There you go.

02:03:44.000 That's what they looked like over there.

02:03:45.000 What's that stuff called again?

02:03:47.000 Boo is what they called it. 0.90

02:03:48.000 Boo way or something.

02:03:50.000 I googled it's called batel nut.

02:03:53.000 Yeah, it's some kind of nut.

02:03:56.000 And it's got some sort of...

02:03:58.000 What's the effect of it?

02:04:03.000 Well, it's obviously a bad effect on your teeth.

02:04:06.000 Yeah, it seems like it.

02:04:07.000 Jesus Christ.

02:04:10.000 Huh.

02:04:11.000 Beetle nut.

02:04:14.000 Yeah.

02:04:14.000 And it has some sort of a narcotic effect or a stimulant effect?

02:04:19.000 Yeah, a stimulant effect.

02:04:19.000 Is it like that cat stuff that they chew?

02:04:22.000 That's a different deal.

02:04:23.000 I mean, dude, I'm not, you know, I don't know a lot about drugs.

02:04:28.000 Jesus Christ.

02:04:30.000 It's a hard life.

02:04:32.000 It's a very hard life.

02:04:33.000 And do you think that all these experiences going to all these different places have made you appreciate your own existence here in civilization more?

02:04:41.000 Yeah.

02:04:41.000 A hundred percent.

02:04:42.000 It makes you really like, just like the way people are abused in other places and the way they don't have rights.

02:04:50.000 The value of life.

02:04:51.000 If you're abused, you know, and you're just taken advantage of by whatever, the government, the local, every situation, your plight in the world.

02:04:59.000 I don't think that, you know, people say, well, there's no value of life.

02:05:03.000 I understand.

02:05:05.000 You know, I watched one time a guy didn't want to spend money 40 bucks to keep his kid alive and let him die.

02:05:13.000 He said he already spent 100 and that was enough.

02:05:18.000 Okay, you're getting into real situations, Joe, like that you see different ways people look at it.

02:05:24.000 And so, now look, is this every person there?

02:05:28.000 No, but that's situations that happen.

02:05:30.000 Those are choices they had to make.

02:05:35.000 Absolutely.

02:05:36.000 It makes me appreciate America.

02:05:37.000 It makes me appreciate our bill of riots.

02:05:39.000 It makes me appreciate our political system.

02:05:41.000 We pitch about things here that the other world would die to have as a complaint.

02:05:50.000 You know, we're upset that traffic's bad.

02:05:53.000 We're upset that, you know, my wife is mad at me that I come home at 5.30 and I said, I'll be on 5.00.

02:05:59.000 Right.

02:06:01.000 No cannibals. 0.53

02:06:02.000 You know, people are upset about, you know, this transgender situation.

02:06:08.000 I mean, dude, who cares?

02:06:12.000 You get to go home and hug your kid, and you got the world's biggest army dying for your rights.

02:06:21.000 Dying for you.

02:06:22.000 You have a giant system that's protecting your life. 0.84

02:06:29.000 You have people dying for you every day.

02:06:32.000 That's one way to look at it.

02:06:34.000 Another way to look at it, people would say, is that giant system is set up by the military-industrial complex to steal resources in other countries.

02:06:41.000 Okay, that's why everybody's coming over here, right?

02:06:44.000 It's the best, for sure.

02:06:45.000 This is the best possible situation.

02:06:47.000 That's why we're not flooding into Cameroon today.

02:06:48.000 You and I are on a boat to get to that better life.

02:06:52.000 Well, we know that it can be better.

02:06:53.000 I mean, that's, I think, what the argument is.

02:06:55.000 The argument isn't we should stop complaining.

02:06:57.000 No, no, no, I'm not saying that we should.

02:06:59.000 I'm not saying they can't be better, but I'm just saying when you see it.

02:07:01.000 Right.

02:07:02.000 It's far better than New Guinea. 0.99

02:07:04.000 It's far better than Somalia. 1.00

02:07:06.000 It's far better than a lot of the places you've traveled to.

02:07:08.000 Yes, absolutely.

02:07:09.000 When you when you do travel to these places and you you do go over there and you experience their life does it give you this feeling of Like almost like helplessness like you can't you can't do enough to help these people the system that they're involved in the life that they live there Yeah,

02:07:27.000 the community and that they're sort of entangled in I can tell you hunts I've gone on with my dad and he brought 20 full giant Cabela's bags just worth of gifts for him Just giving stuff at the very end.

02:07:39.000 My dad's name is Larry.

02:07:40.000 We called it Larry Mart.

02:07:41.000 We just let them all come in and just pick everything they wanted.

02:07:44.000 Mostly giving them things to hunt with?

02:07:47.000 No, just soccer balls, frisbees, clothes, toothbrushes, anything.

02:07:55.000 These are people that need it.

02:08:00.000 And this is not something that anybody would expect from you.

02:08:03.000 They see this thing about you killing the rhino.

02:08:06.000 Dude, I'd be like so judged.

02:08:08.000 Whatever, I don't care what people expect.

02:08:09.000 I know what my life's like, and I know what I do.

02:08:11.000 But you certainly must have some feeling about it, otherwise you wouldn't respond to them, right?

02:08:16.000 Like the ones that, look, yeah, I mean, I have a feeling about it.

02:08:20.000 I'm just trying to bring some awareness that, hey, maybe there's more to this than what you see.

02:08:25.000 You can hate me, that's fine, whatever.

02:08:26.000 I don't...

02:08:27.000 Well, CNN, like you said, they came under fire because that's kind of exactly what they said.

02:08:33.000 You mean they went over there and reported?

02:08:36.000 They did.

02:08:37.000 They went over there and reported?

02:08:38.000 They did actual real journalism, which is getting rarer and rarer.

02:08:43.000 We talked about that.

02:08:45.000 The reason I felt comfortable with those guys, everybody in the world wanted to come.

02:08:50.000 Look, they all wanted to come.

02:08:52.000 The reason I felt comfortable with Jason Morris and Ed Lavendera Is I sat down with them and I said, you're going to have to come to this with an open mind.

02:09:03.000 You're just going to have to come and throw away whatever you got.

02:09:06.000 And when you come on a hunting trip, you're complicit in it.

02:09:10.000 I told them, I said, you're going to be there. 0.94

02:09:12.000 Look, Ed, if the rhino gets somebody and knocks both the dudes down with guns, you may have to grab it to save somebody's life and kill the thing. 0.94

02:09:19.000 You've got to understand that.

02:09:21.000 Did you show him how to use a gun?

02:09:22.000 Absolutely.

02:09:23.000 Absolutely.

02:09:24.000 I took him on a hunt beforehand.

02:09:26.000 I did all this stuff.

02:09:27.000 He understood.

02:09:28.000 You went on a different hunt beforehand?

02:09:28.000 Yeah.

02:09:29.000 Look, I was taking people who'd never been hunting before.

02:09:31.000 I'm not going to put them in there.

02:09:32.000 Dude, it would be freaking a joke for me to take them out on their first real hunting experience. 0.97

02:09:36.000 It's an animal that's going to kill them.

02:09:38.000 Why did you take them hunting?

02:09:40.000 Just playing game animals.

02:09:42.000 Just for a day.

02:09:44.000 I was trying to figure out who could actually make it and not get killed.

02:09:50.000 Make it and not cause somebody's death.

02:09:52.000 Because when you're looking around them Did he get goofy?

02:09:56.000 Yeah, a couple of them got goofy.

02:09:59.000 Ed ended up being the only person there, and then the rhino charged him. 0.93

02:10:03.000 Like the wildest crap turn of events, here's the CNN guy running at me and coming underneath a gun.

02:10:10.000 What did he describe the experience like personally? 0.87

02:10:13.000 What did he take away from it?

02:10:15.000 Boy, it was an eye-opening experience to all those guys.

02:10:21.000 I honestly felt like One of them really was, he wasn't on, I mean, he was kind of real ambivalent, but he wasn't like some guy who thought it was the best thing in the world, for sure.

02:10:34.000 And was really pretty open-minded about it.

02:10:36.000 He just wanted to go over there and report what was going down, true journalist stuff, okay?

02:10:40.000 They were really pretty hardcore journalistic about it.

02:10:44.000 But I think there, when we delivered the meat, I think he kind of got teary-eyed.

02:10:48.000 I mean, he kind of got, at that point, he kind of got it.

02:10:52.000 And the fact that, man, this is real.

02:10:55.000 You know, he got a big experience out of it because the rhino went for him.

02:11:01.000 He got the fear of an animal trying to kill him.

02:11:05.000 So he had a pretty unique experience about it.

02:11:07.000 I think he talked about it on there.

02:11:08.000 I can't remember.

02:11:09.000 But he didn't talk about the rhino charging him.

02:11:14.000 But for somebody who wasn't involved in hunting, he made one of the smartest moves I've ever seen anybody do, where he ran where he ran.

02:11:20.000 If he ran a different way, he'd probably be dead right now.

02:11:22.000 What did he do?

02:11:24.000 Well, the rhino, remember I told you that we jumped it, right?

02:11:29.000 And we sat down, right?

02:11:29.000 And it left.

02:11:30.000 Well, then we kept following it.

02:11:33.000 And this is like the 10-mile point.

02:11:37.000 We followed it.

02:11:38.000 We jumped it.

02:11:40.000 We didn't know we jumped it.

02:11:41.000 We went over there.

02:11:42.000 We saw that we did.

02:11:43.000 And we had so many people there.

02:11:45.000 We had to keep splitting the group up, and then they would come back up and like ride.

02:11:48.000 And so I told Ed, I said, look man, if this thing goes wrong, it's going to be when we lose the track.

02:11:54.000 And so when we're walking along, we lose the track.

02:12:00.000 And Hinty, PH, goes with a couple of the trackers one way, I go with a couple of the trackers the other way, and then I hear boom!

02:12:09.000 And it's behind me.

02:12:10.000 And the two guys in front of me just immediately move from about here to there.

02:12:16.000 So I see them moving, and I heard it behind me.

02:12:18.000 So to make distance, I just took these steps to get to right there.

02:12:22.000 And then turn, because I knew, I thought, well, if I just turn around right here, it's going to hit me, right?

02:12:26.000 Because it was so close.

02:12:28.000 How close?

02:12:29.000 Man, like...

02:12:31.000 30-40 feet.

02:12:32.000 Oh! 0.60

02:12:34.000 Okay, it bedded down and we jumped it again.

02:12:36.000 Oh! 0.60

02:12:37.000 Okay, and so it ran.

02:12:38.000 I turned around and I just saw it for that.

02:12:40.000 Dude, that thing moved like lightning, dude.

02:12:42.000 It was like, I don't know if you ever watched any bull riding, dude.

02:12:44.000 It's like a real athletic bull with a saber on it.

02:12:47.000 You know, okay?

02:12:48.000 And so, anyway, it goes.

02:12:52.000 And we were really lucky.

02:12:53.000 And Hinty came back and looked at Ed and said, look.

02:12:56.000 And he said, if this thing, this next time, it's coming.

02:13:00.000 Okay?

02:13:01.000 We pushed it twice.

02:13:02.000 It's hot.

02:13:02.000 It's gonna come.

02:13:04.000 And so, anyway, we kept going.

02:13:08.000 And, uh...

02:13:11.000 I said, hey Hinty, I think you should go back there and let's just split it up again.

02:13:15.000 You know, put him a hundred yards behind us, okay?

02:13:18.000 And we'll keep one cameraman with me and you and the trackers and then Ed can stay a little bit further behind and another guy who was there with us.

02:13:25.000 He goes back there, talks to him, comes back up to me.

02:13:28.000 And this is after we walked another 20 minutes or so.

02:13:31.000 And I said, what's up?

02:13:34.000 He said, yeah, we're good.

02:13:35.000 We start walking.

02:13:36.000 And then I hear just like some noise, you know?

02:13:40.000 And it was the other dude trying to get my attention from like 30 yards back, okay?

02:13:45.000 And his voice was dry because we hadn't drunk water in a couple hours.

02:13:49.000 Okay, we're out.

02:13:51.000 And then I hear Hinty say, Ed, get down!

02:13:54.000 Ed, get down! 0.99

02:13:54.000 You know, just like run, get down! 0.99

02:13:56.000 Run, run, run!

02:13:57.000 And I'm like, you know, I just plant my right foot as hard as I could.

02:14:01.000 I was like, I'm not moving.

02:14:02.000 You know, I had time to think about that.

02:14:04.000 And like in this whole thing lasted like three seconds.

02:14:07.000 So I had time to think about it.

02:14:09.000 And then I look and I see Ed just flying at me.

02:14:12.000 Like, running, like, dude, the cowboys would have picked him up that day, that dude, that big dude.

02:14:15.000 He was flying, bro.

02:14:17.000 Like, fear is a huge motivator.

02:14:19.000 And he's flying at me.

02:14:21.000 He comes, like, coming from an angle, like, right here where this moose skull is, and just ducks and just flies underneath the rifle.

02:14:28.000 I know what's coming, right?

02:14:29.000 I know, you know.

02:14:30.000 So he knew that you were going to pull your rifle up, so he went under the rifle.

02:14:33.000 He went, yeah, he was, well, Hinty was yelling at him, get down, get down, get down.

02:14:37.000 You know, because we're really worried about shooting each other.

02:14:39.000 Right, right, right.

02:14:40.000 We're all stringed out.

02:14:42.000 Really what happened was I think Ed missed the memo to set back.

02:14:45.000 And he started walking forward.

02:14:47.000 So when he started walking forward, the rhino had actually circled around on its own track and in a way was sitting there waiting for us.

02:14:54.000 So Hinty and I walked past it.

02:14:56.000 Well, Ed starts walking out.

02:14:57.000 Well, the rhino gets up, walks around this tree and starts taking steps for him.

02:15:03.000 Okay?

02:15:03.000 Like, looking like this, kind of inquisitive, and then just came, dude.

02:15:07.000 Like, just was like a bat out of hell.

02:15:10.000 So you shot that thing when it was on a charge.

02:15:12.000 It was charging Ed.

02:15:13.000 He runs under...

02:15:14.000 Dude, he, like...

02:15:16.000 Move so quick and I like we talked about it Because I was like I was like talk to the producer.

02:15:21.000 I was like dude.

02:15:22.000 That's really big, bro You know, I was like he's like don't worry.

02:15:25.000 He's light on his feet. 0.99

02:15:26.000 You should see him in Ferguson This guy's going to the crazy fucking spot. 0.94

02:15:32.000 Yeah, so anyway, it's CNN's mad at Ed Yeah, so anyways, like, he comes flying underneath me, the animal's charging him, and when it, you know, they don't have good eyesight, okay? 0.94

02:15:42.000 So when he came low, I think that it was so thick that the rhino lost him, like, you know, lost where he went, and it kind of just veered a little bit to the left, and when he comes underneath me, I just see it coming and turning, like, just turning, veering, and it's like less than 18 yards,

02:16:00.000 you know, it's right there, 45 feet, and I boom, boom.

02:16:03.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:16:04.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:16:04.000 Yeah. 0.71

02:16:05.000 When you got up to the rhino's body, what is that feeling like?

02:16:12.000 It was like, in this case, it was different than any hunt I'd ever been on.

02:16:16.000 You know, because so much went into it.

02:16:18.000 The magnitude of the experience?

02:16:19.000 Yeah, like the magnitude of the experience, the magnitude of the whole situation.

02:16:23.000 Magnitude being that this was like the most, you know, hunt under a microscope that maybe ever existed.

02:16:32.000 Without a doubt.

02:16:33.000 Okay.

02:16:33.000 And so I was just like, the stress that was going into it, because we could have shot the wrong one, right?

02:16:38.000 Right.

02:16:38.000 Okay, what happens if the wrong one charges?

02:16:41.000 Right. 1.00

02:16:41.000 You got to kill it. 1.00

02:16:42.000 And then we kill the wrong one. 1.00

02:16:44.000 That's the worst thing that could happen. 0.99

02:16:45.000 Right.

02:16:45.000 Outside of somebody dying.

02:16:46.000 What does happen when that happens? 0.92

02:16:48.000 If you killed one of the younger males...

02:16:49.000 You don't bring it home.

02:16:50.000 Yeah, you don't bring it home.

02:16:52.000 You leave it and it's just...

02:16:53.000 The hunt end there?

02:16:54.000 Yeah, that you're done.

02:16:55.000 So the $350,000 is gone and this problem male is still out there killing individuals?

02:16:59.000 Absolutely.

02:17:00.000 It's the absolute worst situation.

02:17:02.000 Wow.

02:17:02.000 And so anyway, so to walk up at it, have the guy, you know, look at it.

02:17:07.000 We saw it from a game camera that was on a waterhole.

02:17:12.000 We saw a picture of it, and the guy said, that's it.

02:17:15.000 This is the one that killed the one last year.

02:17:17.000 This is it.

02:17:18.000 Okay.

02:17:19.000 And so he knew it by, there was ear notch from where it had, you know, when they originally dropped that animal off there, so they could recognize it.

02:17:28.000 And so, and there's other animals, you know, the rhinos there.

02:17:31.000 There's just rhinos there. 0.99

02:17:32.000 I mean, it's a wild area, you know?

02:17:34.000 And so, the reason they're there is that water is there.

02:17:37.000 Okay?

02:17:38.000 So, anyway, we, yeah, just walking up to it, it's just like, it wasn't like a, it's over, because it really kind of wasn't.

02:17:45.000 I knew that all this storm was going to happen.

02:17:49.000 You just didn't know to the extent.

02:17:50.000 Well, this time I knew.

02:17:51.000 You know, this time I knew it was coming.

02:17:53.000 Yeah.

02:17:53.000 It really was the most scrutinized hunt the human race has ever known.

02:17:58.000 Absolutely.

02:17:59.000 I can't think of a close second.

02:18:01.000 What's a close second?

02:18:02.000 I really don't have one in mind.

02:18:04.000 I've never seen anything that got this kind of scrutiny.

02:18:07.000 I did.

02:18:07.000 And look, I've been involved in hunting my whole life, and I've never seen anything like it.

02:18:11.000 And so it was just like, I felt an extreme amount of pressure on me to make sure everything was done correctly.

02:18:16.000 And that's why I felt comfortable bringing them.

02:18:19.000 I felt like they were just going to do an honest portrayal of what was up.

02:18:22.000 Have you stayed in contact with Ed since that?

02:18:25.000 Yeah, I've talked to him.

02:18:26.000 You know, he was down at the floods in Houston the other day.

02:18:28.000 I just said, hey, you know, what's up?

02:18:29.000 And, you know, letting him know kind of what else had happened, you know, since then with where the rhino was at and stuff like that.

02:18:35.000 Because he generally had an interest in it. 0.93

02:18:37.000 Like, he gave a damn. 0.66

02:18:39.000 You know?

02:18:40.000 What is his take on the backlash?

02:18:43.000 He got to experience some backlash himself during a deal in Ferguson where the Drudge Report reported that he showed where this guy's place was at.

02:18:54.000 So he dealt with a bunch, which I don't know if that was true or not.

02:18:57.000 I really didn't get into it.

02:18:58.000 I don't think it was.

02:18:59.000 But I don't know.

02:19:01.000 And anyway, he dealt with a lot of scrutiny before, so he kind of understood it.

02:19:06.000 But he kind of felt a lot like you did, like anybody would.

02:19:10.000 They're threatening your kids.

02:19:11.000 Come on.

02:19:12.000 You know what I mean? 0.96

02:19:13.000 This is bullcrap, you know? 0.98

02:19:15.000 And I think almost every person you would, even Piers Morgan. 0.98

02:19:19.000 You know, Piers, did you see my interview with him?

02:19:21.000 No.

02:19:22.000 Okay.

02:19:22.000 The first time I did an interview with Piers was when we caught this big shark over here in Huntington Beach.

02:19:27.000 Right.

02:19:27.000 Okay, he was all over that.

02:19:29.000 That dude loved that.

02:19:31.000 He thought that was awesome.

02:19:32.000 Long live your fish, and this is the coolest thing ever.

02:19:35.000 Okay?

02:19:35.000 Like, we were kind of surprised.

02:19:38.000 Right.

02:19:38.000 Right, when we did that.

02:19:39.000 So then the Rhino thing comes up, and one of the producers for that show, you know, calls me, and I said, sure, I'll talk to him.

02:19:48.000 And so we...

02:19:49.000 No, no, no, no.

02:19:50.000 Ed called me, and he said, do you want to talk about it?

02:19:55.000 You're welcome to talk.

02:19:56.000 I said, sure, I'll talk to Pierce, is how that happened, and I remember.

02:19:58.000 And so they got me on there, dude, and he came, like, guns a-blazin'.

02:20:04.000 And at the end of it, he's like, you may have a point with the conservation aspects of this, but what I don't get is your hunting photos.

02:20:11.000 Okay, so the rage about me standing there next to an animal bothered him like it bothers thousands of people.

02:20:20.000 Okay, and so, yeah, but he said it in a nutshell.

02:20:24.000 He said...

02:20:26.000 You're right, but don't take pictures?

02:20:29.000 Yeah, you're, you know...

02:20:32.000 You may have a point, but this is what pisses me off. 1.00

02:20:35.000 Well, that's stupid. 1.00

02:20:36.000 That's just a photograph. 1.00

02:20:37.000 Why should you not capture that moment?

02:20:40.000 If you're going to do it, there's no problem with doing it.

02:20:43.000 The actual act isn't a problem, but the photograph of the act is a problem?

02:20:47.000 Yeah, that enraged so many people.

02:20:49.000 That's insane.

02:20:50.000 Well, he's no longer on their network. 1.00

02:20:52.000 Well, he's a douchebag. 0.96

02:20:53.000 I don't say that about a lot of people, but that guy was involved in some really shady shit in England with the tabloids, where the tabloids had hacked into victims' cell phones. 0.99

02:21:03.000 Do you know that whole story behind it?

02:21:05.000 A family of a woman who turned up missing, they got hope because they found that she had checked her voicemail on her cell phone.

02:21:14.000 Well, it turns out she didn't.

02:21:16.000 The company that he worked for had hacked into her phone, and they were checking her voicemail.

02:21:21.000 Oh, nice. 1.00

02:21:23.000 That's tabloid shit, man. 0.99

02:21:25.000 You know, and that's a lot of what he did was tabloid sensationalism shit, where even if he had an opinion on something, you know, there's a lot of what they do that, like we were talking about before, they're trying to get social brownie points. 1.00

02:21:38.000 They're trying to... 0.98

02:21:39.000 Yeah, we're gonna attack guns. 0.99

02:21:40.000 Look, dude, okay, if somebody comes in here and you don't have a gun, and I do, you want me to just let them kill you? 0.99

02:21:46.000 Not only that, the way... 1.00

02:21:47.000 Just hypocritical crap. 0.99

02:21:48.000 I mean, look, Ted Nugent is a funny character to have on when you're discussing that, but at the end of the day, he's very fucking informed when it comes to that stuff. 1.00

02:21:56.000 Very informed. 1.00

02:21:57.000 And Pierce wasn't prepared for that, and he looked stupid. 1.00

02:22:00.000 He really did. 1.00

02:22:01.000 He didn't understand, like, a lot of those shooting deaths are cops shooting people in the act of crimes like murder and domestic violence and robbery and...

02:22:10.000 Every time I talk to like a big, I talk to him, talk to Aaron Burnett on there, talk to, they may have come at me a little bit.

02:22:16.000 They didn't have the facts, right?

02:22:17.000 And the problem is, if you don't have the facts on your side, and especially in this situation, if you don't have the facts on your side, and you're left with, I'm going to cuss this guy out and threaten his kids, you've already lost, bro.

02:22:27.000 You've lost.

02:22:28.000 And so they're just left with outraging, okay, but that ain't helping anything.

02:22:31.000 I hope, agree with you or disagree with you, if people are listening to this, that they get at the end of the day that this is a very complex situation that is not black and white.

02:22:44.000 There's no good guys and bad guys.

02:22:47.000 And when you're looking at something like hunting, you're looking at something that has existed literally since the beginning of human beings.

02:22:56.000 It's been a part of what created civilization in the first place.

02:23:01.000 What led to us surviving.

02:23:04.000 And that's been somehow or another co-opted by factory farming and fast food and restaurant chains, and that has become our reality.

02:23:16.000 And our existence is entirely unnatural and disconnected because of it.

02:23:21.000 Our relationship with the very food we eat is delusional.

02:23:26.000 What you're doing by being a part of conservation, whether or not it makes sense to people, or whether or not they agree with it or disagree with it, once they look at the actual facts behind it, they'll see that this is not...

02:23:42.000 You're not doing an evil thing.

02:23:43.000 Not only are you not doing an evil thing, you're not doing a thing that even can be logically criticized from the standpoint of conservation.

02:23:51.000 You might feel uncomfortable that someone's gonna go over there and shoot a rhino.

02:23:55.000 You might feel uncomfortable about it, but That's your right.

02:23:59.000 When you start looking at the facts behind it, though, it's very difficult to argue against the idea of hunting as conservation, whether you want to do it or not.

02:24:09.000 Like I said, I don't want to do it.

02:24:10.000 I don't want to hunt a rhino.

02:24:12.000 I don't want to hunt a brown bear.

02:24:14.000 I don't want to, but I understand it.

02:24:16.000 I understand it completely and totally from the point of view of conservation.

02:24:21.000 Well, I'm glad that you do.

02:24:23.000 I think it's cool that you do.

02:24:25.000 And I think that it's cool that you're open-minded enough to get something that, hey, maybe you don't want to do.

02:24:29.000 Because I think that's kind of the issue is like, look, I don't want to do a lot of things, but I don't judge people who do.

02:24:35.000 And I definitely don't judge people who actually have a stake in the game when it comes to keeping something around or keeping something good around, you know?

02:24:44.000 The uncomfortable reality of attaching monetary value to life, whether it's the Plains games, animals that were on the verge of extinction just a few decades ago in Africa that are thriving now because they're valuable, or whether it's because of white-tailed deer, which there's more white-tailed deer in America now than there were when Columbus came.

02:25:02.000 Yeah, I mean, we could talk for another three hours about conservation success stories.

02:25:06.000 How about elk?

02:25:07.000 More elk than have ever existed.

02:25:09.000 Florida panther, even there, okay, hunters brought that back.

02:25:13.000 Hunters brought the wolf back.

02:25:15.000 Trappers brought the wolf back to North America, okay?

02:25:19.000 Especially in the Southwest, right?

02:25:21.000 A guy named Roy McBride.

02:25:23.000 Google it.

02:25:26.000 It's the people who live it.

02:25:29.000 Have a vested stake in keeping it around.

02:25:32.000 And if you have a problem with hunters keeping these animals around, then don't go take pictures of a white rhino.

02:25:43.000 Don't.

02:25:44.000 Because the reason that white rhino's there is because of hunters, bro.

02:25:47.000 Period.

02:25:48.000 The reason these white-tailed deer are in big numbers?

02:25:50.000 Because of hunters.

02:25:52.000 Okay, so if you're taking a picture of it, you may not get it.

02:25:57.000 And it's insulting to those who have done all the work to keep it around.

02:26:01.000 So you can have an opinion about it that's justified or not, right?

02:26:08.000 It's just your opinion of it, okay?

02:26:11.000 And it's there for you to talk about.

02:26:13.000 It's there for you to enjoy at a price you didn't have to pay.

02:26:17.000 It's a convenient opinion.

02:26:18.000 It's a very convenient opinion.

02:26:20.000 And so, I mean, I honestly think that I don't know.

02:26:30.000 The average person, especially when it comes to a lot of these wild animals, really needs to look within their self and think, is their emotion going to help it?

02:26:37.000 And do I hate this guy enough that he gets cancer and dies just because he does something I don't agree upon?

02:26:43.000 And then go over to Namibia and take a picture of black rhinos that this situation helped stay alive.

02:26:51.000 Period.

02:26:52.000 Okay.

02:26:52.000 I get so sick of the people saying, well, just because you get money in Africa, it's going to corrupt.

02:26:57.000 Not every situation.

02:26:58.000 Give me a break.

02:26:59.000 Give me a break.

02:27:01.000 You know, my dream is for these children that live there to have a heritage that we have with deer, that we have with bear.

02:27:08.000 They can go out to a wild place, lay down at night, hear a lion roar a hundred years from now.

02:27:14.000 I give a damn about that.

02:27:17.000 Sincerely.

02:27:19.000 I believe you.

02:27:19.000 Thanks for coming on, man.

02:27:20.000 No problem.

02:27:21.000 I really appreciate it.

02:27:22.000 It was a nice, long conversation.

02:27:24.000 I think we chewed it up.

02:27:26.000 We chewed it up good.

02:27:27.000 All right.

02:27:27.000 Appreciate you, bro.

02:27:28.000 All right.

02:27:28.000 Thank you, brother.

02:27:29.000 Corey Knowlton, ladies and gentlemen.

02:27:30.000 We'll see you guys on Wednesday.

02:27:32.000 Greg Fitzsimmons will be here.

02:27:33.000 Until then, enjoy your life.

02:27:34.000 Big kiss.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 08, 2015

Joe Rogan Experience #657 - Corey Knowlton

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