The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #752 - Mark Sisson

00:00:02.000 We're good already? 1.00

00:00:03.000 Damn. 0.99

00:00:04.000 I didn't even see a countdown. 1.00

00:00:05.000 Jamie, you're so fast.

00:00:07.000 Thanks for doing this, Mark.

00:00:08.000 Appreciate it, man.

00:00:09.000 Totally my pleasure.

00:00:10.000 I've enjoyed your tweets.

00:00:11.000 I've checked out your website and Mark's Daily Apple and all of the different rules for the primal blueprint.

00:00:20.000 And I found this really fascinating because...

00:00:23.000 It seems really straightforward.

00:00:26.000 It seems like, oh, well, this makes like eat lots of animals, insects and plants, move around a lot at a slow pace, lift heavy things, run really fast.

00:00:35.000 But what you've done essentially is created a guideline for optimizing your health and your body.

00:00:41.000 Yeah, I've always wanted to be healthy from a really early age, like 12 or 13, and read a lot of books, wanted to do the right thing, tried to figure out the hacks before they were called hacks,

00:00:56.000 and got to the point where I was...

00:01:00.000 You know, I was doing a lot of running because aerobics was supposedly going to make you live longer.

00:01:03.000 I was eating complex carbohydrates and a ton of them in order to fuel the aerobics.

00:01:08.000 I became a pretty good endurance athlete, but I fell apart as a result of the training and the result, it turns out, of the diet.

00:01:17.000 So the diet was very pro-inflammatory, as we say.

00:01:20.000 So I started doing research into the ways in which I could re-access this health that I was seeking from the early age and not fall apart and not be decrepit and beat up.

00:01:33.000 And this became my mantra, is how can I be strong, lean, fit, and healthy with the least amount of pain, suffering, sacrifice, Discipline, calorie counting, portion control, and everything else.

00:01:45.000 And where it led me was down this path of looking at human evolution and how we got to where we are today, how we derived this genetic recipe that we all have that wants us to be strong and fit.

00:01:59.000 Combining the research only in the last 10 or 15 years with the modern genome and sequencing the genome and figuring out the actual mechanism of how lifestyle behaviors and foods and sun exposure and sleep turn genes on or off.

00:02:15.000 And they can turn on genes that make us strong and build muscle.

00:02:19.000 They can turn on genes that burn fat more efficiently than, say, glucose.

00:02:24.000 They can turn off genes that cause us to be moody and depressed.

00:02:26.000 Turn off genes that might predispose us to To get cancer.

00:02:30.000 And what I arrived at was a sort of a simple set of guidelines, these 10 primal blueprint laws that not ironically emulate human nature and human behavior for the first two and a half million years of our existence.

00:02:44.000 So the genome was forged in this crucible of Eat plants and animals, avoid poisonous things, move around a lot at a low-level activity, sprint once in a while, lift heavy things.

00:02:58.000 Every human that ever lived up until 10,000 years ago did that every single day, and that's how those genes got passed along to the next generation to become us.

00:03:08.000 Where we've screwed up is in the last, certainly in the last couple of hundred years, but starting 10,000 years ago with agriculture, We went from being hunter-gatherers and moving around a lot to being sedentary and sitting in one place and eating processed foods.

00:03:27.000 Not disposing of our waste.

00:03:29.000 Lots of little things that sort of conspired to make us smaller and weaker and more susceptible to disease.

00:03:37.000 So you were involved in triathletes and endurance activities, which kind of break down your body.

00:03:43.000 That's one of the big issues that a lot of people have with that kind of training.

00:03:47.000 It's just constant and brutal.

00:03:49.000 Yeah, it's catabolic.

00:03:50.000 It's a great pursuit.

00:03:52.000 I wouldn't take back my years as an endurance athlete.

00:03:55.000 I was a marathoner in the 70s, and then I was a triathlete in the early days of triathlon all throughout the 80s.

00:04:02.000 But the training was, it's devastating.

00:04:05.000 It really does tear you down.

00:04:06.000 And the assumption was, at the time...

00:04:10.000 That you had to put more miles in than anyone else to be one of the best.

00:04:13.000 You had to dial everything down.

00:04:16.000 You had to work harder.

00:04:16.000 You had to suffer more.

00:04:18.000 You had to struggle more to achieve greatness or to win races.

00:04:24.000 What we've discovered in the last five years is that it doesn't have to be that way.

00:04:29.000 How crazy is that that it's only the last five years?

00:04:32.000 I mean, we're talking 2010, 2011. Yeah.

00:04:36.000 So, you know, a lot of this new paradigm is based on science.

00:04:39.000 It's been brewing for 40 years, but it wasn't...

00:04:43.000 The findings weren't...

00:04:45.000 Palatable to most of the athletes who were training.

00:04:49.000 They certainly weren't palatable to the coaches who had been invested in training a certain way, putting in a lot of miles, eating lots of carbohydrates, managing glycogen throughout an event, which meant not only carbohydrate loading the night before a race, but seeing how many gel packs you could slam down in an hour to keep the sugar burn throughput going.

00:05:09.000 And that's certainly what My generation of athletes wound up depending on, and we all trained that way, and it was sort of counterintuitive to think that you could learn how to burn fats much more efficiently, that you could possibly go faster by going slower under certain circumstances,

00:05:27.000 that you could spend time in the gym doing heavy weights And have that manifest itself in better endurance.

00:05:36.000 So these later sort of developments that come out of the laboratory and come out of the clinical studies, you know, they were sort of interesting to the people who are reading them, who knew how to read the studies, but it didn't make it into the mainstream training mechanism.

00:05:52.000 What was the science based on where people had used carb loading and using all those gel packs and eating a lot of pastas and stuff?

00:06:01.000 Where did that come from?

00:06:03.000 What was the idea behind that?

00:06:06.000 That came from studies that go back into the 30s and 40s, but it was basically this notion that the body needs to burn glucose to go fast, that it It was assumed that you couldn't burn fat at a high rate of throughput.

00:06:24.000 And if you couldn't burn fat, then the only thing you could do was manage your glycogen.

00:06:28.000 Those muscles can store 400 or 500 grams of glycogen max, which is only enough to run 20 miles, let's say.

00:06:38.000 And if you couldn't, so you had to learn how to manage that glycogen so you didn't deplete it in a marathon, for instance, so you'd hit the wall at 20 miles.

00:06:46.000 So how do you get through the wall?

00:06:48.000 Well, you start to learn how to, I mean, Gatorade came out of this science.

00:06:51.000 The Gatorade was the great first real performance enhancing substance.

00:06:56.000 That athletes used.

00:06:57.000 You could drink this sugary drink that had salt in it in a race and then stave off that wall a couple of more miles.

00:07:06.000 So for years, for decades, the science revolved around continuing to try to figure out how to manage glycogen.

00:07:16.000 So Tim Noakes, Professor Tim Noakes out of South Africa, was the go-to guy in this.

00:07:20.000 He wrote a book called The Lore of Running.

00:07:21.000 It's a 900-page tome.

00:07:24.000 He was the source that everyone cited for decades when it came to carbohydrate intake and glycogen management and all of the things that had to do with fuel partitioning during an endurance event.

00:07:38.000 And about five years ago, He looked at the research, partly because he'd been a runner himself.

00:07:47.000 He'd been employing the same strategy of carbohydrate intake and carbohydrate management, but he was a type 2 diabetic.

00:07:54.000 He had become, despite his training, a type 2 diabetic.

00:07:57.000 I think his uncle and his father had died as type 2 diabetics.

00:08:02.000 So he, you know, he got the fear of God put in him, and he started to reevaluate the research, and he literally had an epiphany.

00:08:09.000 He goes, oh my God, I'm the guy that's been promoting this way of training for decades, and now I have to completely change my opinion on it and say, what I told you was wrong.

00:08:22.000 The body is developed and was designed to be a great fat burning machine and not rely so much on carbohydrate and not rely so much on glycogen or glucose. 0.99

00:08:32.000 And the guy is taking so much shit for it in South Africa. 0.99

00:08:38.000 They're trying to run him out of the country. 0.99

00:08:40.000 There's a trial going on right now.

00:08:41.000 Really?

00:08:42.000 Yeah.

00:08:43.000 Here's Professor Tim Noakes, and in my mind, that's the epitome of a heroic man of science. 0.90

00:08:50.000 He's gone down a path, he's dedicated his life to being the guy, and then he looks at the research and he goes, holy shit, I messed up. 0.97

00:08:59.000 This is terrible. 0.94

00:09:00.000 I've been telling you the wrong thing, and I'm willing to basically follow my sword and tell you that, because this new revelation is the truth.

00:09:11.000 Well, that's how it's supposed to be, right?

00:09:12.000 I mean, that's what science is supposed to be.

00:09:14.000 It's not supposed to be relying on this bad information just because you've taught it to people.

00:09:19.000 It's supposed to be you find the new data.

00:09:21.000 The new data doesn't correspond with the old data.

00:09:23.000 You have to let everybody know.

00:09:24.000 I know, but it's like, you know, that's like unicorn farts.

00:09:27.000 I mean, it's a really...

00:09:28.000 Science is...

00:09:32.000 Kind of dirty and messy. 0.96

00:09:34.000 And there are no black and whites in science. 0.81

00:09:37.000 There's no absolutes.

00:09:38.000 There's no right or wrong answer.

00:09:39.000 They're just theories and opinions going forward.

00:09:41.000 And if you're a scientist who's had an investment in your life's work being one way, you're going to defend that position, even sometimes in the face of new information.

00:09:53.000 That really becomes a huge issue when they deny information just because it's bad for their ego or just because it's bad for their career.

00:09:59.000 And they could just, I mean, he can, I'm sure, have just kept his mouth shut and just coasted and everything would have been fine.

00:10:06.000 Well, it would have been fine for a while, but the corner had been rounded.

00:10:11.000 I mean, enough other scientists had started to look at this, and he cited me as one of his influences in helping to turn that corner.

00:10:21.000 But here's a guy, he was reading my blog posts and sort of I think we're good to go.

00:10:45.000 The less sugar we burn in a lifetime, probably the better off we are.

00:10:49.000 So, for the longest time, when people were doing all this carbo-loading and when they were just following the old methods, They were creating extra inflammation because of this food.

00:11:04.000 I mean, when you're talking about simple carbohydrates, pastas and bread and such, they cause inflammation, correct?

00:11:11.000 Yeah.

00:11:11.000 So sugar is pro-inflammatory.

00:11:13.000 If you have high blood sugar levels, that causes inflammation.

00:11:16.000 Well, when you say that to people, like, explain to me, what do you mean by inflammation?

00:11:20.000 You mean, like, joint inflammation?

00:11:21.000 Yeah, so...

00:11:22.000 Good question.

00:11:23.000 So inflammation is a process in the body that's designed to deal with an insult.

00:11:29.000 So you twist an ankle.

00:11:31.000 An inflammatory process begins.

00:11:33.000 The ankle swells up because water accumulates there.

00:11:36.000 The cells are being partly protected by the water.

00:11:39.000 White blood cells rush to it to try and...

00:11:44.000 Assess the damage and repair some of the damage.

00:11:47.000 There's a long process where the localized temperature of the air is raised.

00:11:54.000 All of this is contemplated to deal with a short-term insult that hopefully, over time, it repairs.

00:12:02.000 In many cases, it repairs even stronger than it was before.

00:12:05.000 You know, you break a bone and sometimes where it broke is stronger.

00:12:09.000 Or a callus is an example of a stronger skin from having been irritated.

00:12:16.000 The same sort of process happens if you get a bacterial insult, if you get a microbial insult.

00:12:24.000 You get infected with somebody, something, and maybe by somebody.

00:12:30.000 And there's a reaction to that infection, and it may happen in the bloodstream.

00:12:36.000 If the bacteria goes into the bloodstream, then there's a response to that, which is an inflammation, an inflammatory response.

00:12:46.000 And by the way, a lot of this happens as a result of genes within cells being turned on or off based on signals they get from their immediate environment.

00:12:54.000 So genes don't work in a vacuum.

00:12:56.000 Something has to turn the gene on or off.

00:12:59.000 Something has to give the gene reason to build a protein or have whatever action it's going to have.

00:13:04.000 So when you've got So now let's go back to the food analogy.

00:13:09.000 You've got certain foods that you can eat that cause the body to initiate an inflammatory, what we call a systemic inflammatory response.

00:13:19.000 It just maybe emulates something that would have happened in an infection, but now it's caused by an overabundance of omega-6 fatty acids.

00:13:28.000 So you're literally turning on genes that are causing a systemic inflammation.

00:13:33.000 Now, over time, in the short term, not a big deal.

00:13:36.000 One meal here, some temporary insult, not a big deal.

00:13:42.000 But over time, if your diet is such that you're continuously presenting these sorts of foods, that would prompt...

00:13:51.000 Inflammatory genes to turn on, you get what is known as an inflammatory response.

00:13:56.000 Now, sugar has that response. 0.99

00:13:59.000 Refined grains can have that response.

00:14:01.000 Sometimes even whole grains because of the – there's portions of the grain that we say are natural, but they're actually – They're slightly toxic to the body.

00:14:13.000 The industrial seed oils that are pervasive in our diet, that would be corn oil, soybean oil, canola oil, all of these can have the effect of causing a systemic inflammation or systemic inflammatory response in the body.

00:14:30.000 And a lot of times, you'll look at the biggest loser, and you go, God, that dude lost 25 pounds the first week.

00:14:37.000 That's unbelievable.

00:14:38.000 How do you do that?

00:14:39.000 How do you burn off that much fat?

00:14:40.000 They don't burn off that much fat.

00:14:41.000 They lose that much water.

00:14:43.000 Because by eliminating the pro-inflammatory foods, the inflammation, the systemic inflammation that was causing them to carry literally 30 or 40 or 50 pounds of excess water...

00:14:54.000 That cause of inflammation goes away and the water goes away.

00:14:57.000 The swelling goes down.

00:15:00.000 So you could look at the cause of heart disease.

00:15:04.000 Heart disease isn't caused by cholesterol or saturated fat.

00:15:07.000 The proximate cause of heart disease, as we know it today, is systemic inflammation.

00:15:13.000 It's an inflammatory response in the blood vessels.

00:15:17.000 So when you say someone looks puffy...

00:15:20.000 Yeah.

00:15:21.000 Like people who drink a lot of alcohol, they start looking puffy.

00:15:23.000 That's actually, literally water.

00:15:26.000 They're inflamed.

00:15:26.000 They're inflamed with water.

00:15:27.000 Yeah.

00:15:28.000 They're retaining water as a result of an inflammatory response the body is having.

00:15:32.000 So, where we went to that from training, I don't know how we got down that road, but the idea of eliminating these pro-inflammatory foods...

00:15:44.000 Oh, so I'll tell you where it went.

00:15:47.000 I had...

00:15:49.000 Arthritis in my feet at the age of 27, 28. Just from all this hard running and biking?

00:15:55.000 And from the diet, because I had this systemic inflammation.

00:15:58.000 I had this diet that was promoting an inflammatory response throughout my body, not just in the ankle that I might have just twisted or whatever.

00:16:07.000 I had arthritis in my hands when I was...

00:16:14.000 Even after I'd cleaned most of my diet up into my 40s, I had arthritis in my hands or my fingers that I thought was just a normal artifact of getting old.

00:16:23.000 And the last thing that I eliminated from my diet was grains, which I found were a huge cause of issue for me.

00:16:31.000 When I got rid of grains, the arthritis in my fingers went away.

00:16:35.000 All grains.

00:16:36.000 Sprouted grains as well, Ezekiel bread?

00:16:38.000 Yeah.

00:16:38.000 I mean, you know, yes, yes.

00:16:40.000 For purposes of this conversation, let's say all grains, and then we'll talk about what that means over time.

00:16:46.000 But getting rid of all grains...

00:16:50.000 I got rid of—I had irritable bowel syndrome most of my life, and I thought it was because I was a type A, stress-laden individual that couldn't handle it well.

00:16:58.000 And that—literally, that IBS had run my life.

00:17:02.000 That went away.

00:17:05.000 The upper respiratory tract infections I would get several times a year went away.

00:17:11.000 I had lingering sinus infections after I'd have an upper respiratory tract infection.

00:17:16.000 Those went away.

00:17:17.000 And all these things I'd assumed were just a normal Artifact of being human and getting older and part of life.

00:17:26.000 Doesn't everybody suffer these things?

00:17:28.000 They went away.

00:17:28.000 And that was a real epiphany for me to realize that if I had made—I'm basically a researcher, and if I had done all the research and still defended my right to eat grains in the face of the research I was doing, how many tens of millions of people You know,

00:17:46.000 might be affected by this.

00:17:47.000 And I don't want this to be an anti-grain crusade today, but I'm sort of suggesting that a lot of what happens to us in life, certainly a lot of the root cause of illness or the beginning etiology of disease,

00:18:03.000 has deep roots in what we eat, or sometimes more importantly, what we don't eat.

00:18:09.000 One of the things you said I think that's really fascinating is turning genes on and off.

00:18:15.000 And for most people like me who don't have a background in medical science and don't necessarily understand genes, the idea of genes being turned on or off by lifestyle, by dietary choices, things along those lines, just doesn't make any sense to people.

00:18:30.000 They go, well, no, no, no, you got your genes, so you don't got your genes.

00:18:33.000 You either got red hair or you got big feet and that's genetic and that's it.

00:18:37.000 No.

00:18:38.000 Exactly right.

00:18:38.000 So, yeah, there is a huge assumption that the genes are finished when we're born.

00:18:42.000 Right.

00:18:43.000 You know, and then we just grow and we have our eyes and we're doomed to be 50 pounds overweight because our parents are or we're doomed to get breast cancer because our mother did.

00:18:51.000 Yes.

00:18:53.000 Genes are at work every second of every day, rebuilding, renewing, regenerating, recreating us based on the signals that they get.

00:19:03.000 So genes are these little switches that cause the production of proteins that actually run our body.

00:19:08.000 So it's the proteins they make that run our body, whether it's muscle protein being built or whether it's enzymes to cause certain reactions to take place.

00:19:17.000 And the genes are basically not doing anything until they get a signal from the environment.

00:19:22.000 Now, when I say the environment, it might start from what we perceive as the outside environment, but eventually it's a biochemical signal.

00:19:32.000 Or some sensation, some transmission of information that gets through the cell to the genes themselves and causes a gene to turn on, the switch to turn on, the protein to be built, and that manifests itself in whatever that gene is assigned to do.

00:19:49.000 So, the beauty of the Primal Blueprint and the lifestyle that I've been promoting for 10 or 15 years is this notion that we can discover these hidden genetic switches that we all have, and we can make choices in our lives that direct us in a direction of health versus down this slippery slope of illness and disease and falling apart.

00:20:14.000 They're not right or wrong.

00:20:16.000 They're not good or bad.

00:20:17.000 They're not black or white.

00:20:17.000 They're just choices.

00:20:18.000 And I'm not going to criticize you for making whatever choices you make.

00:20:22.000 My job as a blogger, and certainly running Mark's Daily Apple and writing the books that I write, It's to offer you some educated choices that you might elect to undertake based on what you tell me your goals are.

00:20:37.000 So, you know, if you say, well, I want to lose weight and I want to get stronger and I want to, you know, maybe participate in a 5K... We can look at a number of different strategies, whether they're dietary.

00:20:48.000 I mean, the more the better, because all of these strategies will have some impact.

00:20:53.000 But there are certain foods you can eat that will cause you to become better at burning fat and will cause you to build muscle more effectively.

00:21:03.000 There's an amount of sleep that you'll get that will reduce the amount of cortisol that you secrete.

00:21:08.000 Cortisol is an adrenal hormone that we secrete in response to stress.

00:21:13.000 Cortisol tends to make us carry a little bit of extra weight, some of us.

00:21:16.000 So if I can increase my sleep and improve my sleep patterns and reduce cortisol, it all has an effect back at the gene level to get me closer to where I want to be.

00:21:30.000 How much do you sleep?

00:21:33.000 Probably eight and a half to nine hours a night.

00:21:36.000 Wow.

00:21:37.000 Yeah.

00:21:37.000 They say wow because that's a lot.

00:21:38.000 That's a lot.

00:21:39.000 Yeah.

00:21:40.000 You know, I have friends who brag about getting 10 and make no apologies for it.

00:21:46.000 And almost more...

00:21:48.000 More importantly is the consistency of sleep.

00:21:50.000 So I don't like to stay up late because I wake up early.

00:21:53.000 I wake up the same time every day.

00:21:55.000 What time do you wake up?

00:21:56.000 6.30.

00:21:57.000 Are you one of those get out of the house and go run around?

00:21:59.000 No, no, no.

00:22:01.000 I sort of mosey on down to the coffee pot and make a pot of coffee and read the paper.

00:22:06.000 I ease into the day and I typically hit the gym around 9.30 or go paddle or whatever it is I'm going to do for the day.

00:22:13.000 I don't do it first thing in the morning.

00:22:14.000 I want to be kind of refreshed for it and ready for it.

00:22:19.000 But then we can talk about sun exposure, and we can say, well, you know, so many people are vitamin D deficient, and they've been that way because conventional wisdom has suggested that they stay out of the sun, that the sun is bad for you, that any amount of sun exposure is, you know, is going to cause you to get or predispose you to getting cancer.

00:22:36.000 Well, what we say in the paleo community is there are probably more people who have gotten cancer from having avoided the sun than ever got cancer from too much sun.

00:22:45.000 And the reason I say that is because sun exposure, UVB light, That's the stimulus that causes cholesterol in the skin to convert to vitamin D. And vitamin D is one of the most important vitamins.

00:22:59.000 It actually should be a hormone.

00:23:00.000 But one of the implications is that vitamin D is strongly involved in cancer prevention.

00:23:06.000 So the more vitamin D you have, the less risk, the lower risk you have for most cancers.

00:23:11.000 Isn't the issue with people sun damaged, though?

00:23:14.000 The issue is sunburns.

00:23:16.000 So if you go out and get sunburned, and I've never advocated that, but there's a difference between spending a little bit of time in the sun, unprotected, and going in and putting on a shirt, or even if you want to stay out, putting on some sunscreen at that point, versus just rubbing baby oil and iodine we used to put in the sun.

00:23:37.000 Back in New England, when there was very little sun, so you had to cram for that suntan.

00:23:43.000 Iodine, huh?

00:23:44.000 You didn't do that?

00:23:44.000 I didn't know about that.

00:23:45.000 No, I did baby oil.

00:23:46.000 Oh, baby oil with iodine was even, it was like, it turbocharged.

00:23:50.000 Does it?

00:23:50.000 It was like the buttered coffee of suntan lotion.

00:23:55.000 That's what that stuff is.

00:23:56.000 What's the mechanism behind iodine?

00:23:58.000 How does that accelerate?

00:23:59.000 I don't even know.

00:24:00.000 I don't even know.

00:24:00.000 But that was the, again, that was the old wives' tale, conventional.

00:24:03.000 Oh, okay.

00:24:04.000 I went, I was, worst burn I ever got, it was winter break or spring break, I went to Williams College in Western Mass.

00:24:13.000 We drove from Williamstown to Fort Lauderdale straight through in a BMW 2002. Those are great little cars.

00:24:22.000 It was a great car.

00:24:23.000 Four of us.

00:24:24.000 Smelled like a goat farm by the time we got down there. 1.00

00:24:26.000 And fell asleep on the beach at 9 o'clock in the morning and then just burned to a crisp.

00:24:32.000 Oh, God.

00:24:32.000 So from zero sun exposure, you know, all winter.

00:24:37.000 All the way down to Florida.

00:24:38.000 All the way down to Florida.

00:24:39.000 Right to the beach.

00:24:40.000 Barbecue.

00:24:40.000 There you go.

00:24:41.000 Wow.

00:24:42.000 Yeah, that doesn't sound like it's recommended.

00:24:44.000 No.

00:24:46.000 Now, just to clarify, inflammatory response.

00:24:51.000 So when you're eating grains, like say if you're eating a lot of pastas and things along those lines, what exactly is happening that's causing an inflammatory response?

00:25:00.000 Your body's processing the grains and...

00:25:03.000 Yeah, so pasta, bread, a lot of cereals, especially the processed cereals.

00:25:09.000 Sugars. 0.96

00:25:09.000 Well, so those grains turn into sugar. 0.96

00:25:12.000 I mean, they turn to glucose, like, really rapidly as soon as they hit your gut.

00:25:17.000 And the body doesn't really know.

00:25:19.000 It's glucose.

00:25:20.000 It doesn't know the difference between a bowl of Skittles producing the glucose and a loaf of bread.

00:25:25.000 It's just glucose to the body.

00:25:27.000 So if you raise that level high enough, You will have some issues.

00:25:32.000 Now, if you introduce high fructose corn syrup, which is a frankenfood created in the 70s to provide sweetness at a lower cost, typically coming from corn, now you're introducing yet another variable,

00:25:49.000 another agent, because a fructose in and of itself is somewhat inflammatory.

00:25:55.000 That's the glucose portion of what we're talking about here.

00:25:59.000 But then some of the grains have what we call these anti-nutrients in them that may cause issues with some people in their gut, may open the gut wall and cause it to literally leak fecal matter into the bloodstream.

00:26:12.000 Whoa.

00:26:13.000 Yeah.

00:26:13.000 So if you've heard of leaky gut syndrome, that's probably a reason why a lot of people have autoimmune diseases, or at the very least, a systemic inflammation.

00:26:23.000 That's fascinating.

00:26:24.000 And that's caused by your body processing too much glucose.

00:26:28.000 Well, it's not caused by your body processing too much glucose as it is a side effect of it.

00:26:34.000 Yeah, because it's not the glucose that's causing that.

00:26:37.000 In that case, we've moved on from sugar and glucose being a cause of inflammation to certain elements in, let's say, whole grains.

00:26:51.000 That turn on certain genes that cause certain responses, one of which may be in some people to open the junction between the cells lining the gut and allow undigested food particles, shall we say, to enter the bloodstream.

00:27:06.000 Now the body sees those undigested food particles, which...

00:27:10.000 The gut is only supposed to really allow in free fatty acids, simple sugars, and amino acids, single peptides, dipeptides maybe.

00:27:22.000 But if you get a large undigested food particle in the bloodstream, sometimes the body goes, hey, that looks like a bacteria.

00:27:28.000 We better go get that thing and set up an immune response to it.

00:27:33.000 So you get an initial form of inflammation where the body's just saying, look, there's some foreign matter in the bloodstream.

00:27:39.000 We don't recognize it. 0.78

00:27:40.000 We're going to kill it. 1.00

00:27:42.000 And that's sort of bad enough in and of itself. 0.98

00:27:45.000 But if that continues long enough for some people, sometimes...

00:27:54.000 That inflammatory response, that immune response, now it goes to look for similar molecules, and it might see a beta cell in the pancreas and go, that looks just like that other thing I just set up a response for.

00:28:08.000 Let's go kill this. 0.83

00:28:09.000 Or it might do it with the cells in the joint, the chondrocytes in the joint, and you may get rheumatoid arthritis as a result of a—that's an autoimmune response, the body setting up an immune response to itself.

00:28:24.000 So when you hear people talk about gluten sensitivity and people are trying to go gluten-free, do you think that a lot of what that is is the body responding to an excess of this glucose in the body?

00:28:39.000 Excess of glucose in the diet?

00:28:40.000 No, so two different things.

00:28:41.000 So the glucose is one thing.

00:28:42.000 The sugar is what it is.

00:28:44.000 From breaking down breads and pastas.

00:28:46.000 Or candy or cakes or pies or...

00:28:51.000 Snickers, whatever it is.

00:28:52.000 Or soft drinks, which is a huge issue, because soft drinks are a large part of the problem.

00:28:59.000 But gluten is an entirely different mechanism.

00:29:01.000 Now we're talking about a protein.

00:29:04.000 It's a plant protein that's folded so densely that the theory is that most humans haven't had enough time to adapt to the digestion of that type of a molecule.

00:29:17.000 And as a result, it causes problems within the lining of the gut.

00:29:22.000 Right.

00:29:22.000 But what I was getting at was people always talk about having gluten sensitivity, but really what you're saying is that a lot of what people are having issues with is these simple carbohydrates.

00:29:34.000 It's like breads and pastas and inflammatory responses.

00:29:37.000 Sorry to be...

00:29:38.000 There's like two parts to this equation, and either part is kind of Bad.

00:29:45.000 And together they're kind of like, why would you do that?

00:29:47.000 So on the glucose side, and it's just unfortunate that gluten and glucose have the first GLU, but they're not related.

00:29:54.000 So on the glucose side, that's the sugar, that's the thing you want to avoid.

00:29:58.000 Partly because one of the other things that happens is, even if you don't have an inflammatory response, it raises insulin.

00:30:04.000 Insulin is a storage hormone that tends to take every calorie you ate at the last meal in excess of what you needed and store it as fat.

00:30:12.000 Now if you're a If you're a skinny East African marathoner, then you're going to burn it off. 1.00

00:30:18.000 But if you're a typical American eating a couple hundred extra calories a day in the form of this sugar, you tend to store it as body fat.

00:30:25.000 And if you haven't built a mechanism to burn off the body fat, that causes problems over time.

00:30:30.000 That increases your risk for cancer.

00:30:31.000 That increases your risk for heart disease.

00:30:33.000 That increases your risk for type 2 diabetes.

00:30:35.000 I don't think I have gluten sensitivity, but I do know that when I decided to go gluten-free, I kind of quit it after a while, but I did it for about six months.

00:30:45.000 My face got thinner.

00:30:47.000 I lost body fat.

00:30:48.000 I had more energy.

00:30:49.000 I felt better.

00:30:51.000 I was trying to figure out what it was, but I don't think I have a gluten sensitivity.

00:30:55.000 I just attribute it to the fact that eating all that pasta and breads and all those things was just giving me all this extra sugar.

00:31:01.000 Eliminating that from my diet made a difference.

00:31:03.000 So that is sort of the first line of defense for a lot of people who want to lose weight.

00:31:08.000 Just by getting rid of those foods, and I won't say limiting yourself, but including meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds, all the vegetables, a little bit of fruit, healthy fats from oils and nuts...

00:31:25.000 You know, that's a pretty nice plate of food that you can offer yourself up.

00:31:28.000 As long as you get rid of the carbohydrates, the simple carbohydrates, you're well on your way to reducing the excess body weight, which includes the excess retained water and the fullness in the face and all the things that we talk about.

00:31:41.000 Now, if you give those up and you find that your joints work better or that you have, you know, That your immune system works better.

00:31:51.000 You don't get sick as often, which is what a lot of people notice.

00:31:54.000 Now we probably are looking at the fact that you might have some level of sensitivity to gluten.

00:31:59.000 And gluten sensitivity exists on a spectrum of no problem at all to I'll die if I eat it.

00:32:05.000 And you could be anywhere in the middle, anywhere on that spectrum.

00:32:09.000 I mean, this, again, sort of the operative mantra here, no right or wrong, no black or white, no good or bad, just choices.

00:32:16.000 But if you're a person who really wants to dig deep and kind of make those changes that are going to get you closer to your goal quicker, that might be a choice you might look into.

00:32:27.000 So there's no right or wrong, but there is a spectrum in terms of tolerance.

00:32:31.000 Like, your tolerance might be much better than mine, and some people just really shouldn't have it in their diet at all, whether some people can have a fairly good amount of it and really not have too many issues.

00:32:40.000 Yeah, we say, you know, what can I get away with?

00:32:41.000 And that's sort of an interesting concept in and of itself, because humans, you know, we tend to see what we can get away with.

00:32:48.000 Oh, yeah.

00:32:49.000 You know, you might say, this is really good for me, or this is really bad for me, I'm never going to do it again.

00:32:55.000 But if I don't die from it, and there's no consequences, then I'm going to take it right up to the edge, sometimes a little bit past the edge.

00:33:02.000 So there are a lot of people who can get away with eating a lot more carbohydrate than others, even though they don't train hard.

00:33:09.000 And maybe not gain that much weight.

00:33:11.000 There are a lot of people who can get away with consuming omega-6 oils and not get into that pro-inflammatory state as readily or as quickly.

00:33:22.000 As Ronald Reagan said, man's got to know his limitations.

00:33:25.000 Or was that Dirty Harry?

00:33:26.000 Well, it was both.

00:33:26.000 I think it was Dirty Harry.

00:33:28.000 Yeah.

00:33:29.000 I think Reagan restated it later on.

00:33:31.000 Perhaps.

00:33:32.000 Yeah.

00:33:32.000 So, I was reading this article yesterday, and I talked about this yesterday in the podcast, about this woman who, she wrote this article about she's in her 70s, and how her whole life people have been shaming her for being fat.

00:33:45.000 And she was sort of like...

00:33:47.000 Trying to promote fat acceptance.

00:33:50.000 When I see articles like that, there's two reactions.

00:33:53.000 One reaction is as a human being, I look at her and I say, that's a poor lady. 1.00

00:34:00.000 What a fucking shitty roll of the dice she's got in life. 1.00

00:34:04.000 She's been overweight her whole life, feeling fat and gross, and she's trying to get people to lay off her. 1.00

00:34:08.000 Leave me alone.

00:34:09.000 And she sort of... 0.93

00:34:10.000 It's a very biased account and not science or exercise physiology based where she's sort of describing all the various times in her life where people have said she's unhealthy but meanwhile she's been very active and she like lists all the different things she did tree climbing and hiking all this different stuff right Which,

00:34:28.000 obviously, to a guy like you or someone like me who knows a lot about competitive athletics and the amount of calories she's actually burning out versus putting in, it's probably skewed. 0.98

00:34:39.000 It's probably fucked up. 0.97

00:34:41.000 And she didn't really discuss what she was actually eating. 0.99

00:34:46.000 She was talking about very bland foods and a thousand calories a day that doctors are trying to put her on, which is the wrong approach, right? 0.99

00:34:53.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:54.000 And it's really...

00:34:56.000 When I see things like that, I don't see a woman who's like 70 years old who's coming to accept the fact that she's overweight and it's no big deal and everybody's got these ideas about body image that are based on skinny supermodels that are actually anorexic. 1.00

00:35:14.000 You should just leave me alone and I'm plump and I'm healthy and everything's fine.

00:35:17.000 I don't buy it.

00:35:19.000 I look at that and I say this poor lady has been given a bad set of directives. 1.00

00:35:25.000 She's been given bad information as far as her diet and you don't have to be fat.

00:35:30.000 You can eat healthy foods and live a healthy life and your body would lose a lot of weight just eating healthy foods.

00:35:39.000 That's absolutely true.

00:35:41.000 And so that brings us back to this...

00:35:44.000 You know, this idea of good or bad and judgment.

00:35:49.000 Yes.

00:35:49.000 Because, you know, people self-judge, people judge other people.

00:35:53.000 I have to be very careful when I look at people not to make that judgment. 0.95

00:35:58.000 I mean, my tendency is to say to myself, holy shit, I could fix that person or I could help that person, you know what I mean? 0.95

00:36:05.000 And people resist that, too. 0.94

00:36:06.000 Well, and I don't do it.

00:36:07.000 I mean, I say it to myself because it's pretty clear that, you know, you have to want to change.

00:36:15.000 We talked about what can I get away with.

00:36:18.000 Well, if I can get away with being fat and people still reasonably like me, then I don't have to do the work and therefore I'm not motivated to do what it's going to take to get to that point.

00:36:28.000 But it's a slippery slope with talking with people about, you know, like what's the ideal body composition, right?

00:36:35.000 It's...

00:36:37.000 The ideal body composition is where your body says back to you, Joe, man, I love what you've done with the place.

00:36:44.000 This is phenomenal.

00:36:45.000 You know, you've lost 50 pounds, not you, but you don't get sick as often, you've got all the energy you want, you maintain it without a lot of dieting or anything like that.

00:36:54.000 You eat pretty much how you know you're supposed to eat, but you're never hungry.

00:36:58.000 That's your ideal body composition, man.

00:37:00.000 And if it doesn't look like the cover of Muscle& Fitness or Shape magazine, so be it.

00:37:05.000 By the way, I can get you to that point for a lot of people where you are on the cover of Shape Magazine or Muscle& Fitness, but it's going to cost.

00:37:12.000 And it's going to cost not money, but it's going to cost in sacrifice and discipline and pain and hating life.

00:37:18.000 So, you know, the science can get us there, but is it worth the life?

00:37:24.000 The main thing we do at the Primal Blueprint is we try to live an awesome life.

00:37:28.000 So, in fact, my tagline is Primal Blueprint Live Awesome.

00:37:31.000 Living awesome means enjoying as much of every moment, every day as you can, extracting the greatest amount of pleasure, whether it's movement, whether it's with friends, whether it's food.

00:37:43.000 Again, with the least amount of pain, but in a way that's sustainable.

00:37:47.000 So it not only benefits you right now and today, but over the long haul, you're going to live longer, you're going to be happier, you won't get sick, you won't tap into your 401k to pay for a $200,000 whatever operation.

00:38:02.000 It's about how can I enjoy life right now today.

00:38:07.000 Now, back to the overweight person who's trying to Trying to get to that point.

00:38:11.000 And I see a lot of, you know, overweight people who are quite happy, I guess. 0.94

00:38:16.000 But I see a lot of others who are maybe hiding it and going, you know, I'm the jolly, you know, fat person, but inside I'm, you know, I'm the sad whatever, the sad clown. 0.84

00:38:27.000 You've got to deal with that. 0.76

00:38:28.000 And there's a lot of baggage.

00:38:29.000 So some of this stuff comes from the changes you make in your diet.

00:38:33.000 So there's a lot of easy things that we can do.

00:38:35.000 I can write anybody a program that they'll love that says, you know, we're going to have buttered coffee for breakfast.

00:38:43.000 We're going to have two eggs and a little bit of bacon.

00:38:47.000 We'll have a salad with some salmon on it for lunch.

00:38:50.000 We'll have whatever.

00:38:50.000 And they'll never be hungry, and they'll start to burn fat, and life will be wonderful.

00:38:56.000 And sometimes they'll get to a plateau and they'll go, what happened, Mark?

00:38:59.000 I did everything right.

00:39:00.000 Well, you know, you're a woman. 0.97

00:39:02.000 You went from 225 to 175. You know, you still have some work to do.

00:39:07.000 But for right now, you're at your ideal body composition.

00:39:10.000 Because in terms of your body, the body, it's a survival mechanism.

00:39:14.000 You know, if we get to this, you know, this sort of...

00:39:20.000 Secular or, you know, discussion about life and what we're after.

00:39:26.000 The human body is a vessel designed to carry two strands of RNA, DNA, into the future.

00:39:33.000 And it's a bizarre permutation of several hundred million years of evolution, but the bottom line is the body is designed to survive long enough to procreate.

00:39:43.000 And that's the reality of humans and evolution.

00:39:46.000 And the fact that we live longer and we enjoy life, this is all wonderful and icing on the cake.

00:39:50.000 But from the body's perspective, Your ideal body composition is that composition at which, again, you don't get sick.

00:39:55.000 You move around great.

00:39:57.000 You can meet a mate.

00:40:01.000 You have all the energy you want.

00:40:02.000 You're not hungry.

00:40:04.000 If you're a woman and that's 175, for now, you've got to go, this is fabulous. 0.90

00:40:09.000 I embrace this.

00:40:10.000 I feel good.

00:40:11.000 Whatever.

00:40:12.000 Now, if you want to drop the next 25 pounds, okay, now we've got to look at...

00:40:16.000 Refiguring the diet out and adding some sprints in there and doing some little tweaks in there and we'll get down there.

00:40:23.000 But it requires, number one, Identifying an appreciation for what you've done so far to get to where you are.

00:40:34.000 Number two, it requires acknowledging any past insults in your life.

00:40:40.000 And there's a lot of stuff going on in the mind, in the brain, that wants to keep people protected with armor.

00:40:47.000 Whether it's sexual abuse, whether it's verbal abuse, some scenario that happened in childhood.

00:40:55.000 There are a lot of people carrying a lot of Emotional baggage around with them that, in some cases, if you dealt with it in an inappropriate manner, that might free you up to lose a little bit more weight.

00:41:07.000 And I've seen this happen.

00:41:08.000 So when you're saying armor, do you mean in terms of like emotional armor?

00:41:12.000 Or is it the body fat that they keep on top of them?

00:41:16.000 Is it almost like a distraction?

00:41:17.000 Or is it the food that distracts them?

00:41:20.000 The over-consuming of food to sort of nullify the effects of the abuse or whatever trauma?

00:41:27.000 It could be any of those and all of those.

00:41:30.000 But I see it Fairly frequently where people will do everything right and then hit a plateau and wonder what I need to get to the next level.

00:41:39.000 Sometimes you need to really do the deep work.

00:41:42.000 Yeah, why I try to explain to someone when they try to gain weight, when people are like, hey, I want to put some muscle on, I try to explain to people that that is not an easy thing to do.

00:41:52.000 And a matter of fact, your body doesn't want to do that.

00:41:55.000 Your body has a limited amount of resources and it does not want to spend resources created on this extra muscle.

00:42:01.000 And in order to do that, you have to be uncomfortable.

00:42:03.000 That's the only way.

00:42:05.000 And people say, oh, I've been doing all this lifting, I'm not gaining any weight.

00:42:08.000 Well, you're probably lifting not enough weight.

00:42:10.000 You're not putting in enough intensity.

00:42:12.000 You're not eating enough. 0.99

00:42:14.000 I mean, you have to get your body to say, all right, this asshole wants to do deadlifts four days a week now or squats or, you know, he's doing all this heavy stuff. 0.99

00:42:24.000 We have to adjust accordingly because the environment in which we're existing in obviously changed. 0.98

00:42:31.000 And now we're going to need a lot more muscle.

00:42:34.000 Yes.

00:42:35.000 I mean, again, the nature of the human body is to preserve itself, to pass the genetic material along to the next generation.

00:42:41.000 Part of that preservation is, I don't want to waste precious resources building something that I won't need.

00:42:46.000 Right.

00:42:46.000 So, in a lot of people, how that manifests itself is, if you don't lift weights, you don't have any muscle.

00:42:52.000 So you have this lack of muscle, this lack of muscle mass.

00:43:01.000 And, you know, we say, well, what's wrong with that?

00:43:02.000 I'm skinny. 0.75

00:43:03.000 Well, you know, you could be skinny, but you could be what we call skinny fat.

00:43:06.000 No muscle.

00:43:06.000 You got a little bit of excess fat.

00:43:08.000 You're maybe more prone to getting type 2 diabetes.

00:43:10.000 But almost more importantly, if you don't train, and as you get older, it becomes more and more important to maintain muscle mass.

00:43:18.000 People don't die of old age.

00:43:20.000 They die of organ failure because they just, you know, something wasn't keeping up with the body. 0.83

00:43:25.000 But the concept of dying of, quote, old age is kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

00:43:30.000 So the typical old age scenario is you got a 75, 85 year old man or woman, hasn't done anything active for years, so there's no muscle mass.

00:43:41.000 And because there's no muscle mass and they haven't done anything active, the bones, there's no bone density.

00:43:45.000 So the bones go, hey, I don't need to build a structure because this clown isn't going to the gym and doing anything to require it.

00:43:53.000 So I'm going to save resources, not build bone density.

00:43:58.000 The muscles are not building bone mass.

00:44:00.000 Now the heart's going, this is easy.

00:44:02.000 I can pump blood all day at 5% of my volume or maybe 15% of my volume.

00:44:06.000 The lungs go, hey, you know, there's no requirement for excess oxygen. 0.92

00:44:11.000 This clown's just sitting around in a chair all day or, you know, watching TV or doing minimal activity.

00:44:17.000 So the lungs, they sort of cease to function at full capacity. 0.97

00:44:21.000 Same with the liver, same with the kidneys.

00:44:24.000 And as you Go down this path, then one night you get up to take a leak and you trip over the cat and you fall and you break your hip because the bone density sucks and now you wind up in the hospital and you get pneumonia and you die because the lungs can't expel the sputum for the pneumonia and the heart can't keep up so maybe you die of congestive heart failure.

00:44:46.000 I mean this is a very typical scenario for a lot of people and it all goes back to creating a need for the body to want to change.

00:44:55.000 That great Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston movie where...

00:44:59.000 How dare you say that?

00:45:01.000 How dare you say that great Vince Vaughn, Jennifer Aniston movie?

00:45:04.000 No such thing has ever occurred.

00:45:05.000 Oh, I'm sorry.

00:45:05.000 There was a great line in a mediocre Vince Vaughn.

00:45:10.000 But the one I'm talking about where they're having a fight and she says, Honey, come help me do the dishes. 1.00

00:45:18.000 He goes, No, that's all right.

00:45:19.000 I'm going to watch the game.

00:45:19.000 And she goes, No, help me do the dishes.

00:45:22.000 He goes, no, that's all right.

00:45:23.000 I'm going to be over here watching the game.

00:45:24.000 I'll just watch the game.

00:45:25.000 She goes, come help me do the dishes. 1.00

00:45:27.000 He goes, all right, all right, all right, all right.

00:45:28.000 I'll come help you do the dishes.

00:45:29.000 She goes, never mind.

00:45:30.000 I don't want you.

00:45:31.000 He says, why?

00:45:32.000 He says, I don't want you to help me do the dishes.

00:45:34.000 I want you to want to help me do the dishes.

00:45:37.000 Oh, Christ.

00:45:37.000 Right?

00:45:38.000 Get a new chick. 0.98

00:45:40.000 So the body...

00:45:41.000 Sorry about that.

00:45:42.000 That was an arcane movie reference.

00:45:44.000 But you've got to give the body.

00:45:46.000 The body needs to want to change.

00:45:48.000 Right.

00:45:49.000 And you do that by using your brain to elect to go to the gym and lift weights or to embark on a more rigorous and strenuous regimen than you had previously encountered.

00:46:02.000 Well, changing patterns is very difficult for people.

00:46:05.000 That's why New Year's resolutions are always such a joke.

00:46:07.000 Because everybody, I mean, the amount of people that stick to those things that they prescribe on January 1st, like, this is it.

00:46:15.000 I'm going to write it down.

00:46:16.000 I'm going to, January 1st, from here on out, it's all salads and salmon and running up hills. 0.98

00:46:21.000 And then come February 13th, it's fucking over. 0.97

00:46:26.000 It's over. 0.99

00:46:26.000 You're right back to the same thing. 0.99

00:46:28.000 So sustainability is a huge part of a program like that.

00:46:32.000 Changing patterns.

00:46:33.000 And that's what we like about the Primal Blueprint is that the foods are sustainable.

00:46:36.000 So, I mean, literally and figuratively, the diet, the eating strategy is a sustainable strategy.

00:46:42.000 Rule number one is you never let yourself go hungry.

00:46:44.000 You just, instead of eating a bagel in the middle of the afternoon, you know, you eat a spoonful of coconut butter or something that's got fat in it that satisfies.

00:46:52.000 You scoop coconut butter for a snack?

00:46:55.000 Coconut butter.

00:46:55.000 You know, like the peanut butter.

00:46:58.000 Oh, hell yeah.

00:46:59.000 You just take a scoop of that for a snack?

00:47:01.000 But not coconut...

00:47:02.000 People just checked out. 1.00

00:47:03.000 They're like, this fucking guy's nuts. 1.00

00:47:04.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa. 1.00

00:47:05.000 Are we talking about the same thing?

00:47:06.000 Coconut butter.

00:47:07.000 Yeah, like peanut butter.

00:47:08.000 Yeah, it's the meat of a coconut.

00:47:09.000 It's like...

00:47:10.000 Yeah, most people are like, I want a cookie. 1.00

00:47:13.000 I want a fucking cookie, man. 1.00

00:47:14.000 I don't want a candy bar. 1.00

00:47:15.000 I don't want a goddamn coconut butter spoonful. 0.99

00:47:16.000 I'm telling you, man. 0.99

00:47:17.000 Okay, so you gotta suspend disbelief a little bit here and humor me.

00:47:21.000 Go buy a jar of coconut butter and try it instead of a cookie or whatever.

00:47:24.000 Do you participate in any sort of intermittent fasting?

00:47:29.000 Not really.

00:47:30.000 And I'll tell you why.

00:47:32.000 This is, again, about seeing what we can get away with.

00:47:34.000 And I'm pretty lucky that I can get away eating what I eat.

00:47:38.000 Now, I have, on the other hand, a compressed eating window.

00:47:41.000 So you could argue that I intermittently fast every day.

00:47:43.000 So I eat from 12.30, 1 o'clock...

00:47:47.000 To 7 o'clock p.m.

00:47:49.000 And then I don't eat again.

00:47:50.000 So you don't eat it all in the morning?

00:47:52.000 There's no concept of the word breakfast for me.

00:47:54.000 I have a cup of coffee and that's it.

00:47:56.000 So I'll go to the gym fasted.

00:47:57.000 I'll do whatever workout I'm doing, whether it's a heavyweight workout or whether it's, I mean, it could be a leg day, could be, you know, intervals on a bike, could be a two-hour paddle, fasted.

00:48:09.000 Yeah.

00:48:29.000 So I wake up, I have all the energy I need.

00:48:32.000 I don't need to tap into the stored glucose in the form of glycogen in my liver or in my muscles.

00:48:38.000 So you essentially follow a ketogenic diet.

00:48:41.000 Yeah, but it's not ketogenic.

00:48:43.000 So it's a high-fat A moderate-protein, moderate-carb diet, but I have enough carbs.

00:48:49.000 I have maybe 100 to 130 grams of carbs a day, which in no one's estimation would that be ketogenic.

00:48:57.000 But I'm good at burning fat because I've spent enough time in that sort of low-carb area.

00:49:02.000 I've built the metabolic machinery to burn fats really effectively.

00:49:05.000 So I'm just going to suggest that I have a lot more mitochondria in my muscle cells than other people do.

00:49:13.000 Because of the restricting the carbs and restricting the sugars and forcing my body to become good at burning fat.

00:49:18.000 How does that work?

00:49:20.000 Genes, baby.

00:49:21.000 Please tell me.

00:49:23.000 How does it promote more mitochondria?

00:49:25.000 Well, it's called mitochondrial biogenesis.

00:49:28.000 So when you're born, you're born again with this recipe that wants you to become really good at burning fat and very quickly you change the script.

00:49:37.000 So the parents feed you The gruel and oatmeal and Zweibach and toast and whatever, and pureed vegetables.

00:49:45.000 And you become very dependent on carbohydrate.

00:49:48.000 And the body says, I don't need to burn fat because I'm getting fed carbohydrate all the time.

00:49:54.000 And a couple of responses are, I've got to get rid of this excess glucose because if I don't, it's toxic.

00:50:02.000 The body shouldn't have more than 90 to 100 calories. 0.96

00:50:06.000 Your blood sugar count should stay between, say, 85 and 70 and 100 max.

00:50:12.000 What is the number of...

00:50:14.000 You know, milliliters per deciliter.

00:50:17.000 I forget what the exact number is.

00:50:20.000 They're all over the place with cholesterol and blood sugar.

00:50:23.000 But the point is that the entire amount of sugar in your bloodstream right now is probably a tablespoon.

00:50:30.000 You know, five grams of sugar.

00:50:32.000 So it's not copious amounts.

00:50:34.000 And if it rises above that, you start to get into problems.

00:50:38.000 That sugar can interact with protein molecules and cause reactions that lead to clogging of arteries, destruction of nerve tissue.

00:50:48.000 That's where the diabetic damage comes from, just excessive amounts of sugar.

00:50:53.000 That are in the bloodstream.

00:50:54.000 So the body wants to kind of keep that level low.

00:50:59.000 And if you continuously feed it carbohydrate all day long, if you're not burning it off, if you're not running 20 miles a week, there's a tendency for the body to store the excess as body fat.

00:51:13.000 And over time, for some people, that's a real problem.

00:51:15.000 For others, who can get away with it?

00:51:17.000 Not so much a problem.

00:51:19.000 So many of us grow up depending on this carbohydrate as a main source of fuel.

00:51:27.000 And, you know, you eat a carbohydrate meal, a high carbohydrate meal causes a surge of insulin because the insulin is there to take the glucose out of the bloodstream and store it because, again, it's dangerous to have too much.

00:51:38.000 But sometimes the insulin surge is so great that it drops the blood sugar and then you get hungry again a couple of hours later.

00:51:44.000 That's why you have these swings throughout the day if you're what we call a sugar burner.

00:51:50.000 If you try and look at a different way to configure your energy sources, if you restrict Sugar and restrict carbohydrate a little bit.

00:52:02.000 You don't have to, you know, be draconian about it.

00:52:05.000 But you start to create the need for the body to start to burn some of its stored body fat.

00:52:10.000 You say, well, the body goes, well, if I've got to save some of my glucose for my brain, because the brain runs on glucose and ketones, and I'm going to learn how to burn fat more efficiently.

00:52:22.000 And in order to do that...

00:52:24.000 I've got to build more mitochondria because that's where the fat burns, inside the mitochondria. 0.52

00:52:28.000 Explain to people what mitochondria is.

00:52:30.000 Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell.

00:52:34.000 Most cells have mitochondria in them.

00:52:37.000 Muscle cells have...

00:52:39.000 Lots of mitochondria that are creating ATP, which is the energy currency the body uses to move, to live, to exist.

00:52:46.000 What does ATP sound for?

00:52:47.000 Denosine triphosphate.

00:52:49.000 We're not going to get a biochem lesson right now.

00:52:51.000 That's okay.

00:52:52.000 But ATP is this currency of the body, and it can be recycled using different pathways, a glycolytic pathway, which doesn't require oxygen.

00:53:02.000 And one of the pathways is using oxygen in the mitochondria.

00:53:07.000 So that's a very important place to not only build more mitochondria, but improve the efficiency of the mitochondria.

00:53:14.000 And how that happens, and this is the elegance of this again, is that certain signals that you give the body by cutting back on the amount of exogenous carbohydrate you take in, those signals go directly to the cells that say, I've got to make more mitochondria.

00:53:29.000 And then, unique to every other organelle in the body, mitochondria have their own DNA. No other organelle within a cell has that, but mitochondria have their own DNA, and the DNA and the mitochondria go, well, we better...

00:53:43.000 Be more efficient at what we do.

00:53:44.000 So you upregulate the mitochondrial biogenesis, the creation of more mitochondria, and you upregulate the efficiency of the mitochondria, all done at the level of gene, all done through a signal that you gave by, in this case, restricting carbohydrate.

00:53:59.000 And it could be increasing the amount of low-level aerobic activity you do, and it can be both.

00:54:06.000 And we talk about that in my new book.

00:54:09.000 Primal endurance.

00:54:09.000 Well, I want to read your new book and I want you to mark down the moment what he just said, like the time on the podcast.

00:54:15.000 What time is it here?

00:54:16.000 Like an hour and 10 minutes in or something like that?

00:54:20.000 53 minutes in.

00:54:21.000 53, that's it?

00:54:22.000 Okay.

00:54:24.000 That's very important.

00:54:25.000 I'd never heard that before.

00:54:26.000 I did not know that your body can change the amount of mitochondria.

00:54:31.000 Absolutely.

00:54:32.000 That's incredible.

00:54:33.000 And that's just from restricting carbohydrates.

00:54:37.000 Well, there are a lot of things you can do.

00:54:40.000 There are certain forms of weightlifting you can do.

00:54:43.000 Like what?

00:54:44.000 You know, you can do sustained maximum power output stuff.

00:54:49.000 So, you know, you've got a deadlift.

00:54:52.000 What do you got?

00:54:52.000 A deadlift max of 500?

00:54:53.000 What's your deadlift max, Joe?

00:54:54.000 Somewhere around there.

00:54:55.000 Probably a little heavier than that.

00:54:57.000 Okay.

00:54:57.000 I'm kind of yoked.

00:54:58.000 I'm kind of yoked, yeah.

00:55:00.000 So you'd...

00:55:02.000 You'd do a workout in the gym where you'd do 80% of your max, so you'd do 400 pounds, and you might do it four or five times, and then rest a few minutes, and then do it again four or five times, and rest a few minutes, and do it again.

00:55:16.000 Instead of doing three sets of ten of whatever it is you're going to do, you load this up.

00:55:22.000 You load deeper and deeper into the fibers to the extent that the workout's over when you can only do one.

00:55:31.000 And you know you can only do one.

00:55:33.000 You don't even try to get the next one.

00:55:34.000 The workout's over.

00:55:35.000 And maybe that winds up being 15 sets by the time you're done.

00:55:38.000 But you've maximally overloaded so much at a high, not 100% max, because now we're talking about danger.

00:55:46.000 Tissue breakdown.

00:55:47.000 But you know you can do 80% max and do it at three or four.

00:55:49.000 So that's one example of how we can...

00:55:52.000 And that'll prompt those muscle tissues to want to build more mitochondria. 0.99

00:55:56.000 Because as you probably heard, a truly...

00:56:00.000 Effective weight session causes you to burn fat throughout the day, right?

00:56:04.000 Yeah.

00:56:05.000 Well, it's one of the best ways to get lean, and it's one thing that people sometimes aren't aware of.

00:56:11.000 Most people, when they want to get lean, they think about cardio.

00:56:14.000 They start doing a lot of extra cardio.

00:56:15.000 I know.

00:56:16.000 It's weightlifting that really makes you lean.

00:56:17.000 Yeah.

00:56:18.000 No, I mean, weightlifting and sprints.

00:56:20.000 As I say, nothing cuts you up like sprints.

00:56:22.000 Hills.

00:56:22.000 Yeah.

00:56:23.000 Hills really do it.

00:56:26.000 When you're talking about increasing mitochondria, how much of an increase are we talking about?

00:56:33.000 Double?

00:56:34.000 Yeah.

00:56:35.000 I mean, up to double.

00:56:37.000 Wow.

00:56:38.000 Yeah.

00:56:38.000 And what are the other effects of having double the amount of mitochondria?

00:56:42.000 What are the other positive benefits?

00:56:43.000 Yeah.

00:56:43.000 You know, more energy throughout the day because now you're so good at burning fat and you have all this machinery to burn the fat that you're hungry less often.

00:56:55.000 And, you know, it's interesting when we look back at how hunger runs our lives.

00:57:01.000 And again, if you look at the carbohydrate sugar burning paradigm, You get up in the morning, have the most important meal of the day.

00:57:08.000 It might be a bagel, some toast, whatever.

00:57:12.000 Special K. Yeah, yeah.

00:57:13.000 Special K. A glass of juice.

00:57:15.000 Don't forget the juice.

00:57:15.000 Oh, yeah.

00:57:16.000 You've got to have that instant sugar water. 0.77

00:57:17.000 150 grams of sugar before you head out the door.

00:57:20.000 And you're not even supposed to have 150 grams of sugar in a day.

00:57:22.000 That's what I'm saying, yeah.

00:57:24.000 That's what most people say, right?

00:57:24.000 Well, I'm saying you're not supposed to have more than...

00:57:26.000 Like, 150 is a max amount of total carbohydrates that I have in a day.

00:57:31.000 So sugar is a minor, minor subset of that.

00:57:35.000 But then, you know, you get to work and 10.30 rolls around and it's time for a break in the break room.

00:57:41.000 Donuts.

00:57:42.000 Somebody brought donuts today!

00:57:43.000 Woo! 0.99

00:57:43.000 Jelly! 0.99

00:57:44.000 All right.

00:57:44.000 Yeah.

00:57:46.000 And then, you know, where are we going for lunch?

00:57:48.000 Ah, let's go to, you know, get a pizza or whatever.

00:57:51.000 And again, another break in the afternoon, then you get home and...

00:57:54.000 You have dinner and maybe you have some ice cream or something watching TV. And the next thing you know, you've taken in 600-700 grams of carbs in that day.

00:58:04.000 Well, if you're good at burning fat, the first thing that happens is you wake up in the morning and go, I don't need to eat, really.

00:58:09.000 I don't feel like I need to eat.

00:58:11.000 I'm not hungry.

00:58:12.000 And one of the things we talk about in the Paranormal Blueprint, if you're not hungry, then don't eat.

00:58:16.000 That's...

00:58:17.000 These are the signals your body is giving you.

00:58:20.000 And if you can get away with not eating, and when I say don't eat, it's important that we have to say, because I'm not hungry.

00:58:28.000 If you're hungry, eat.

00:58:30.000 But if you're not hungry, then move on.

00:58:33.000 I did a thought experiment a while back, and I thought, you know, it's interesting, because when I was in college, Every one of my college buddies know me as Arnold.

00:58:44.000 They don't even know me as Mark.

00:58:46.000 They call me Arnold.

00:58:47.000 Because when we were in college, there was a TV show called Green Acres, and there was a pig on the show called Arnold Ziffel.

00:58:54.000 And I could eat more than anybody in the college I went to, including the football team.

00:59:00.000 And so people would call me Arnold Ziffel.

00:59:02.000 And so I became Arns, Arnie, Arnold, for most of my life.

00:59:05.000 Just because of the amount of food you ate?

00:59:07.000 Just because of the amount of food I could eat.

00:59:09.000 Did you have the contests?

00:59:11.000 No.

00:59:11.000 No, but everybody knew.

00:59:13.000 It's like, you're going to eat that dessert?

00:59:14.000 You're going to eat that steak?

00:59:15.000 You know, I'll have that.

00:59:17.000 But I was running 100 miles a week. 1.00

00:59:19.000 I was a skinny shit. 0.99

00:59:20.000 I weighed 30 pounds less than I weigh now. 1.00

00:59:22.000 But the throughput was where it was.

00:59:26.000 And because I had a leaky gut, probably a lot of it just passed me. 0.99

00:59:29.000 Went right out your butt. 0.99

00:59:30.000 Went right out the butt. 1.00

00:59:31.000 Out the butt, Bob. 0.98

00:59:33.000 So the thought experiment was that my whole life, I sort of was guilty of this. 0.99

00:59:39.000 Like, how much food can I eat?

00:59:42.000 And not gain weight and not be uncomfortable.

00:59:44.000 And I think a lot of people look that way.

00:59:46.000 It's like, all right, we're going to go eat lunch.

00:59:48.000 How much food can I eat and not gain weight?

00:59:51.000 Or how much of that cake or that pie can I eat?

00:59:53.000 Or whatever.

00:59:53.000 People, I think, tend to...

00:59:54.000 This is the what can I get away with part of it.

00:59:57.000 Well, what if you shifted that around and you said, what's the least amount of food I can eat?

01:00:02.000 And maintain muscle mass, and maintain energy, and not get sick, and most importantly, not be hungry.

01:00:10.000 And you find if you do this experiment, it's pretty interesting.

01:00:12.000 If you become good at burning fat, your appetite so self-regulates and so mitigates that you find yourself pushing a plate of food away after a couple of bites, or not being hungry, or eating just the right amount of food.

01:00:26.000 To get you through the day.

01:00:28.000 What do you keep your body fat at?

01:00:30.000 You know, so I'm 62 now.

01:00:33.000 You look great.

01:00:33.000 Well, thank you.

01:00:34.000 I mean, people would look at me and go, oh, you must be 6%, 7%.

01:00:38.000 No, probably 9%, maybe 9.5%, maybe 10%.

01:00:41.000 A lot of people lie about their body fat.

01:00:44.000 You know, you hear these stories of the wide receiver that's, you know, 2.5%, 3% body fat.

01:00:49.000 That's not even possible.

01:00:50.000 It's impossible, yeah.

01:00:51.000 And even with the bodybuilders, the ones that get down that lean are so close to death.

01:00:59.000 That's dieting down the day before the contest to get there, and they pack it right on afterwards.

01:01:05.000 So the body fat thing is, I've stayed at this same visible, I should say, body fat level since I was in my 20s.

01:01:16.000 So this is a result of a lot of strenuous exercise, a lot of long distance running, a lot of the different things that you participate in, as well as this body burning fat primarily.

01:01:29.000 Because you're talking about if you've been in this same body fat percentage most of your life, you haven't adjusted.

01:01:36.000 How old are you?

01:01:37.000 Yeah, so here's what happens now.

01:01:38.000 You were in your 40s when you adjusted your diet?

01:01:40.000 Yeah, I was in my 40s.

01:01:42.000 So what happens now is I don't run at all.

01:01:46.000 I was a career runner for the first part of my life, and I have not run a mile in like 13 years.

01:01:54.000 What do you do now for exercise?

01:01:55.000 So I lift twice a week.

01:01:58.000 I do an upper body sort of full routine.

01:02:01.000 I don't separate, you know, chest and tris and back and bides and all that stuff.

01:02:05.000 I just do a full routine.

01:02:07.000 That's a smart way to do it.

01:02:08.000 That separating stuff is kind of malarkey.

01:02:10.000 Well, it's separating stuff as if you don't have a job.

01:02:13.000 Well, it's good for a bodybuilder, too.

01:02:14.000 You're going to go to the gym every day and do two hours and whatever.

01:02:17.000 But I try to get some long, either a paddle or a hike in once a week.

01:02:24.000 I do a pretty focused interval ride on a bike, but half an hour once a week.

01:02:30.000 And then my big thing is...

01:02:31.000 You mean like a stationary bike?

01:02:32.000 Yeah, yeah, stationary bike.

01:02:33.000 And then I... I go to the gym not to ride the bike, but to catch up on our reading.

01:02:38.000 Oh, okay.

01:02:38.000 So I read while I'm on the bike and whatever.

01:02:40.000 Right.

01:02:41.000 But then the big workout for me is my Sunday Ultimate Frisbee game.

01:02:47.000 So you laugh.

01:02:49.000 You get to some image of some pastoral hipsters, barefoot.

01:02:54.000 I don't even know exactly what Ultimate Frisbee is.

01:02:56.000 It's the greatest game I've ever invented.

01:02:58.000 We've got to get you out, Joe.

01:03:00.000 Your whole demeanor changed.

01:03:01.000 Your smile widened.

01:03:02.000 Your eyes lit up.

01:03:04.000 What are you doing?

01:03:05.000 Ultimate is just a very fast-paced game.

01:03:09.000 It's played on a field like a football field or a soccer field.

01:03:12.000 Two teams trying to advance the Frisbee down the field by making completed passes to their teammates.

01:03:16.000 When you're a passer, you can't run.

01:03:19.000 But everybody else on your team is trying to get open.

01:03:21.000 So they're running, trying to get away from their defenders.

01:03:23.000 You complete a pass, and eventually if you complete a pass over the end zone...

01:03:28.000 Or the goal line adds a point.

01:03:30.000 But if at any point in time...

01:03:32.000 Oh, Jamie just put something on the board here.

01:03:34.000 Oh, there you go.

01:03:34.000 Look at these guys.

01:03:35.000 Yeah, check that out.

01:03:36.000 So watch.

01:03:37.000 Here you go.

01:03:38.000 Yeah, so at any point in time...

01:03:40.000 Well, they need some black people in this sport. 1.00

01:03:42.000 Because first of all, that white guy was running slow as shit. 1.00

01:03:45.000 The other guy would have definitely got to that. 1.00

01:03:48.000 Anyway, it's a pretty athletic game.

01:03:50.000 I don't know who this is.

01:03:52.000 I'll tell you what they're not. 0.89

01:03:53.000 Black. 0.93

01:03:54.000 Yeah.

01:03:54.000 There's a good layout right there, okay.

01:03:57.000 That was a good catch, actually.

01:03:58.000 But we have those every week that we play, a bunch of those.

01:04:02.000 So it's a very fast-paced game.

01:04:03.000 And if you lose the Frisbee, if it's turned over by your teammate, you either drop it or something, it becomes the other team's We have Frisbee going in the opposite direction, and now you've got to get back on defense and defend the same guy that was defending you in most cases.

01:04:17.000 Okay, so if you throw the Frisbee and the other guy doesn't catch it, then the other team gets it?

01:04:22.000 Correct.

01:04:22.000 And they've got to try and do the same thing.

01:04:24.000 Interesting.

01:04:24.000 Okay.

01:04:25.000 So you're sprinting a lot on Sunday.

01:04:26.000 A lot.

01:04:27.000 I mean, we have soccer players come out and basketball players come out and they go, dude, I couldn't walk on Monday after that game. 0.88

01:04:33.000 That's just ridiculous.

01:04:34.000 So no running except during ultimate...

01:04:36.000 Except sprinting, except 8 to 10 second bursts.

01:04:39.000 And how that plays out for me is some of the recent research is you go, instead of doing intervals like the old days where you do 60 seconds or a minute and a half interval as a marathoner, I used to go to the track and do 16 times one half mile at race pace.

01:04:57.000 So now we're doing all-out sprints, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, maybe 20 seconds, but you're max, max, max the whole way, and then a sufficient enough rest, and come back and do it again, and do it six, seven, eight, five, six, seven times, and you're done.

01:05:11.000 That workout is over, and you have accrued the benefits probably at a greater rate than you would have had you done the old method of training, which was to do, you know, again, repeat quarters or 200s or whatever.

01:05:23.000 So do you think that a lot of what the old methods were doing was just people getting through with mental toughness and you're getting some benefit of it, but you're also kind of breaking yourself down too much?

01:05:36.000 You know, it's...

01:05:37.000 Yeah, so most of endurance athletics is pain management.

01:05:41.000 And overtraining.

01:05:42.000 Yeah, it's like...

01:05:44.000 Half the races that I thought I was most prepared for, I sucked in because I was over-trained.

01:05:51.000 I left everything on the training field.

01:05:53.000 That's a big problem with fighters as well.

01:05:55.000 With UFC fighters, it's a gigantic issue trying to figure out what is the right amount of work you should do.

01:06:03.000 And especially with fighters because...

01:06:06.000 In mixed martial arts, they're dealing with different disciplines.

01:06:09.000 You have your grappling, you have your striking, you have putting them all together, you have submissions, you have takedowns, you have a bunch of different things you have to train, as well as rigorous strength and conditioning programs, and there's a lot of debate as far as...

01:06:22.000 What should you put most time and effort into?

01:06:25.000 And some of the more successful people, it's really kind of interesting, have been going away from skill training during camps when they prepare for a fight and going almost exclusively to strength and conditioning programs with very minimal skill training where the strength and conditioning program takes precedent over everything else,

01:06:41.000 which I find very fascinating.

01:06:43.000 The idea behind that being you already know how to fight.

01:06:45.000 So what they're going to do is get your body to a place where it can function at the highest work rate.

01:06:50.000 And a big factor in that is maintaining a healthy heart rate and making sure that you don't overtrain, making sure that you have enough recovery time.

01:07:00.000 100% agree.

01:07:01.000 We say that in training triathletes and runners.

01:07:06.000 The amount of time you spend on the bike after you've been doing it for a couple of years, you know how to ride.

01:07:11.000 So let's train the component.

01:07:12.000 Let's break the race down into its component parts.

01:07:15.000 How can you...

01:07:16.000 How could you sustain your power over the next three hills to where your output on the third hill is essentially the same as it was on the first hill versus in the old days where you were 100% going over the first hill and then 90% over the second hill and 77% going over the third hill because you hadn't trained that part in your regimen.

01:07:39.000 One of the things we say to endurance athletes is, how many races have you finished where you were out of breath?

01:07:44.000 And maybe you had to sprint, you know, because you were neck and neck with some guy.

01:07:48.000 But most endurance athletes don't finish a marathon out of breath because long ago their form fell apart.

01:07:56.000 Their muscle tissue started to break down because they hadn't trained for sustained power.

01:08:01.000 And so the aerobic part of it was like, we could do this all day long.

01:08:05.000 You're just going slow because you didn't train appropriately.

01:08:08.000 So there's some strength training components, like even to something like marathon running.

01:08:14.000 Absolutely.

01:08:15.000 Yeah.

01:08:16.000 So now we're saying that the next breakthroughs in marathon running will come from somebody who has trained ketogenically, and we didn't talk about that yet, but has restricted carbs to the extent that they...

01:08:31.000 Cyclically, they know how to access ketones, which are a byproduct of fat metabolism, and they can use the ketones in place of glucose or glycogen.

01:08:40.000 They can use the ketones to fuel the brain, to will them to continue the pace.

01:08:46.000 They've done the work in the gym where they can maintain sustained power output over 26 miles and not have it fall apart and not have form break down 22 miles into the race.

01:08:57.000 And if you put all of these different component parts together, and do it with an elite, a world-class athlete, now you look at the next level of records being broken.

01:09:08.000 It's so antithetical to the way we've trained for the last 40 years that you take an elite professional runner who's already had some amount of success and you go, dude, we want to shift everything around.

01:09:21.000 It's going to cost you the next 18 months to adapt, but there's a good chance that you'll be better.

01:09:26.000 The guy's going to go, you know.

01:09:28.000 So hard for people to change.

01:09:29.000 Yeah, and it's so hard.

01:09:30.000 Well, it's so hard to give up something that's working.

01:09:34.000 Right.

01:09:35.000 Yeah.

01:09:36.000 To get to that, yeah.

01:09:38.000 I want to go back to something you said while you were just explaining that, that you get someone to train ketogenic.

01:09:45.000 Yep.

01:09:45.000 And what do you mean by that?

01:09:46.000 So now there are periods of time when you're restricting carbs so much...

01:09:51.000 That you're creating more ketones, which are this byproduct of fat metabolism.

01:09:56.000 So you've already become fat-adapted, as we say.

01:09:59.000 You've become good at burning fat.

01:10:01.000 And now you're building further metabolic machinery that accesses ketones better.

01:10:05.000 So now ketones, which we refer to as the fourth fuel.

01:10:09.000 So you'd have proteins, fats, carbohydrates.

01:10:11.000 Ketones are the fourth fuel. 0.94

01:10:12.000 The body...

01:10:14.000 We evolved to use ketones very efficiently.

01:10:17.000 There were times throughout millions of years of human evolution where it wasn't like you skipped lunch.

01:10:23.000 It's like you skipped last week eating, right?

01:10:25.000 And you had to maintain muscle mass and maintain thought capability and maintain speed and health despite not eating anything.

01:10:35.000 And the only way to do that was to access the stored body fat that you'd stored from overeating Or eating slightly more than you needed.

01:10:43.000 The last time there was actually food present, which is why we're all wired to overeat.

01:10:50.000 And this ability to use the byproduct of the fat metabolism to fuel the brain. 0.88

01:10:56.000 So ketones, actually, the brain loves to run on ketones.

01:10:59.000 One of the things that happens, particularly in endurance contests, and I suspect it happens in MMA fights toward the end of the fight, is, you know, you feel gassed, and you run out, you're starting to run low on glycogen, and you're starting to really feel like the wheels are coming off.

01:11:15.000 More often than not, it's the brain It's a lack of glucose to the brain.

01:11:19.000 The brain isn't being powered enough, and the brain goes, time out.

01:11:23.000 We got to pull over the side of the road and take a nap.

01:11:25.000 So it'll make you mentally exhausted because your body's running on glycogen and glucose rather than fats.

01:11:31.000 Exactly.

01:11:32.000 Exactly.

01:11:32.000 So when you run out of glycogen and glucose...

01:11:37.000 The old theory was, well, the reason that you hit the wall in any of these events, or you bonk, as they say, is because you've depleted glycogen so much the muscles can't function anymore.

01:11:48.000 Well, the research now shows that you never really deplete the glycogen in the muscles.

01:11:53.000 If you go from 500 or 600 grams total in the body, you never get lower than 150. So there's always some glycogen left.

01:12:00.000 So what's going on?

01:12:01.000 Well, it's the brain and its lack of access to glucose.

01:12:05.000 That is shutting you down.

01:12:06.000 And Tim Noakes, the guy we talked about, Professor Tim Noakes, at the beginning of the show here, he coined a phrase, the central governor theory of the brain.

01:12:14.000 And he said the reason a lot of people hit the wall isn't because they're out of glycogen, but it's because the brain, as an override mechanism, says in order to prevent further damage, we have to stop.

01:12:25.000 I think?

01:12:41.000 That once it runs out of that fuel says, I'm sensing there's no fuel so we're going to pull over.

01:12:47.000 So that's what ketones do.

01:12:49.000 So when you become good at accessing stored body fat and producing ketones and you've built the metabolic machinery, particularly in the brain, to use those ketones...

01:12:58.000 And we know from history and from genetics and from modern science that the brain runs really well on ketones.

01:13:04.000 Now you've found a substitute fuel for glucose, so you can run out of glucose.

01:13:09.000 And yet the ketones will keep the brain, you know, revving and guiding you at the same pace.

01:13:16.000 Again, provided you've done the work in the gym to maintain the form and the power.

01:13:23.000 And so, you know, this is all...

01:13:26.000 I'm going to say kind of theoretical now because the real world records haven't been broken yet.

01:13:31.000 Some are being broken in the ultra events, the 100-mile run.

01:13:34.000 There are a number of guys doing ketogenic and low-carb training who are breaking records like crazy.

01:13:39.000 Zach Bitter is a guy who in the lab has shown that he could derive 96% of his total energy running 7-minute miles from fat.

01:13:51.000 So in other words...

01:13:53.000 It's seven minute miles, which is like sprint pace for most people.

01:13:58.000 It's not that fast for a marathoner or even an elite runner, but it's a substantial pace.

01:14:05.000 And for a guy running 100 miles, it's a pretty good clip.

01:14:09.000 And to derive 95 to 96% of all energy from your stored body fat or from exogenous fat that you're eating, And just a tiny bit required from glycogen or glucose.

01:14:22.000 I mean, I think 30 or 40 years ago, we would have said, not only was that impossible, that was like twice times impossible.

01:14:29.000 Well, the benefit of that for athletes has got to be incredible in terms of motivation, in terms of enthusiasm towards the end of the race or an end of a fight or something along those lines where your body would run out of the glycogen and the glucose and instead you have fat to burn so your mind doesn't drop off as much.

01:14:48.000 Your mind doesn't hit that wall.

01:14:49.000 Right.

01:14:49.000 That should be huge.

01:14:50.000 I mean, that alone should be motivation for people to at least attempt to pursue that.

01:14:55.000 Yep.

01:14:55.000 Now, when it comes to highly glycolytic experiences like MMA, you can't derive a substantial part of your energy from fat.

01:15:06.000 That still has to come from glycogen.

01:15:07.000 Why is that?

01:15:08.000 Well, because there's a point at which your throughput of oxygen...

01:15:12.000 When I'm talking about endurance athletes, they're measuring their output over two, three, seven hours.

01:15:20.000 Now you're talking five, five, five minute...

01:15:26.000 That same output is concentrated now, and you're going at a fairly high rate.

01:15:31.000 Although, you see them, they're jumping around and dancing around and moving back and forth, so there's recovery periods in there, but you still have to have that 100% intense glycolytic output.

01:15:43.000 So when you're in a hold and trying to escape, or when you're trying to defend or trying to come in for a barrage, you have to be at 100% of output.

01:15:50.000 But it's brief periods of time, so...

01:15:54.000 Conceivably, you could train in the gym to access That part of your body that burns fats, that burns ketones, you know, almost the most important part would be making weight. 0.51

01:16:06.000 You know, if you're...

01:16:07.000 Look, especially in MMA, it's about power-to-weight ratios to a certain extent.

01:16:12.000 I mean, there's a lot of, obviously, skill, but a power-to-weight ratio.

01:16:15.000 If I'm, you know, 142 pounds, I don't know what the weight, what the divisions are, but if I'm carrying around, I'm at 165 and I have to cut down to 142 to get to my...

01:16:28.000 I'm going to lose power, but if I maintain that power and I never even get up to 165 anymore because I'm not gaining fat, because I've learned how to burn fat and I can stay effective and functional at the weight that I'm at, that has benefit.

01:16:41.000 You know, and it's a power to weight ratio concept.

01:16:43.000 So you would have to have some sort of a hybrid diet then in something like MMA. Yeah, so once you've built the metabolic machinery to burn fat and to burn ketones, It doesn't go away when you start eating carbohydrates.

01:16:55.000 So you can do what we call the cyclical approach where you spend, in the early phases of your training, you become really good at burning fat and you do stuff that's contemplated to make you the best possible fat burner you can be.

01:17:09.000 Then you might introduce some carbohydrates the day before a really hard glycolytic workout.

01:17:17.000 That doesn't turn off your fat burning.

01:17:19.000 That doesn't even really negatively impact your ability to handle ketones.

01:17:23.000 If you do it for six weeks and you do nothing but carbs for six weeks, then it all shifts back.

01:17:27.000 Again, upregulation and downregulation of enzymes based on gene input.

01:17:33.000 Gene expression.

01:17:34.000 But if you built the metabolic machinery and you keep coming back to it, then you can craft a strategy where you say, well, tomorrow we're just going to do 100% glycolytic stuff.

01:17:43.000 Be prepared to puke all afternoon or whatever.

01:17:47.000 You have 150 grams of carbs and a sweet potato for dinner that night.

01:17:52.000 You topped off your glycogen stores.

01:17:53.000 You're still good at burning fat.

01:17:55.000 You have all the glycogen that you even could possibly have loaded if you'd just been a carbohydrate-based athlete ever since.

01:18:03.000 You just pick the times when you're going to up the ante with extra carb intake.

01:18:08.000 And you make sure it's not sugar, but it's, you know, a good, you know, a starchy carb in this case, something like a sweet potato or, you know, ham or something like that.

01:18:17.000 So how do you regulate the amount of sugars that are in your body?

01:18:22.000 Do you limit the amount of fruit that you eat?

01:18:25.000 How do I, personally?

01:18:26.000 Can you eat as much fruit as you like?

01:18:28.000 Or is that not a good idea?

01:18:30.000 It's just not a good idea.

01:18:32.000 Some amount of fruit is good, but I think what cracks me up is the number of people who say, I'm on a very healthy diet.

01:18:40.000 I'm eating 12 servings of fruit a day, and I go to Jamba Juice, and I get a big fruit smoothie, and I go, dude, you're taking in more sugar than a guy who's drinking two six-packs of Coke.

01:18:50.000 So even sugar that comes from fruit is not necessarily healthy?

01:18:54.000 Correct.

01:18:55.000 Wow, that's crazy.

01:18:57.000 Again, all these things exist on a spectrum.

01:18:59.000 Right.

01:19:00.000 I might have blueberries every day because I love blueberries.

01:19:03.000 Grew up in Maine, you know, picking them wild, so I love blueberries.

01:19:07.000 But they're low in sugar, they're tart, they've got antioxidants in them, and I don't overdo them.

01:19:13.000 Do you limit yourself to like a cup or something like that?

01:19:16.000 Yeah, I don't even limit...

01:19:17.000 Look, at $4.99 a pack for organic blueberries, I limit myself based on budget, not on any other metric.

01:19:26.000 How many servings of fruit will you allow yourself in a day?

01:19:29.000 Oh, just because I don't feel the need to eat fruit.

01:19:34.000 I don't have a craving for it.

01:19:38.000 Maybe two servings is the most I'll eat in a day.

01:19:41.000 Some days, none.

01:19:43.000 But bananas, some of the citrus fruits, some of these things can be way overdone pretty quickly.

01:19:50.000 And I'm not necessarily saying don't eat fruit.

01:19:53.000 I'm just saying don't consider fruit the healthiest possible alternative to You know, bread and pasta and then replace all of the calories you got from bread and pasta and cereal and whatever.

01:20:04.000 Don't replace that with fruit, but figure out a way.

01:20:07.000 Like, vegetables, for the most part, are the ideal source of carbohydrate in our diet.

01:20:12.000 They're locked in this fibrous matrix.

01:20:14.000 It's, you know, they're basically low glycemic index, so they kind of drip into the bloodstream at a reasonable pace, don't cause a huge surge in glucose.

01:20:25.000 So celery with coconut butter would be a much healthier alternative than a banana.

01:20:32.000 Again, healthier is the wrong term.

01:20:35.000 I mean, we're making choices here based on what we're trying to accomplish.

01:20:38.000 No good or bad, no right or wrong.

01:20:40.000 But in a perfect world, celery with coconut butter is a great choice, and a banana at the right time is maybe a better choice.

01:20:49.000 Like post-workout, a banana's a good choice, right?

01:20:51.000 Yeah, I mean, it depends on who you are.

01:20:52.000 I fast after the workout, too, because that's kind of interesting.

01:20:56.000 There's so much of these little nuanced science bits that you pick up.

01:21:02.000 And I've been in the supplement business for 30 years, designing supplements for other companies.

01:21:08.000 And one of the supplements I made a bunch of years ago for a very large company today...

01:21:14.000 It was a post-workout drink, and everybody loved it, and everybody thought it was the greatest thing they'd ever tasted, and it had, you know, it had carbohydrates, and it had some protein, it had some creatine, and it was a great drink. 0.94

01:21:29.000 But the purpose of the drink was to recover from the hard workout you did today so you could do the bitch again tomorrow. 1.00

01:21:38.000 And that's not how I train anymore. 0.97

01:21:40.000 So I don't do two hard days in a row.

01:21:42.000 So for that particular purpose, if you're going to train hard every day and you want to replace glycogen, Then that's a strategy and that's a choice.

01:21:50.000 If you say, well, we're going to do some hard glycolytic work today, we're going to, for whatever reason, going to do some hard glycolytic work tomorrow, then let's have a post-workout high-carb, relatively high-carb supplement because there's this window in which the body manufactures glycogen.

01:22:08.000 Refills glycogen stores at a higher rate just post-workout.

01:22:12.000 That was the whole reason for the post-workout meal.

01:22:15.000 That's why people like to drink chocolate milk, right?

01:22:18.000 Exactly, exactly.

01:22:20.000 So if you're going to go from day to day, then that's probably a good thing.

01:22:28.000 Another strategy would be to go really, really hard today, do a deep leg day, and then fast.

01:22:33.000 Well, what happens when you fast is you don't replenish the glycogen, but you preserve the pulse of growth hormone and testosterone that happens as a result of the leg day, which you would otherwise blunt by taking in a sugary drink.

01:22:47.000 Whoa, okay.

01:22:49.000 So again, it's complex, and yet it's pretty cool.

01:22:53.000 The science is pretty cool.

01:22:57.000 Insulin has an effect on growth hormone and testosterone.

01:23:01.000 It actually lowers it.

01:23:03.000 So if you are eating a post-workout meal that's high in carbs, because you want to refill the glycogen stores so that you can do it again tomorrow, then the post-workout meal will cause a rise in insulin, which will blunt the growth hormone and testosterone pulse that you got from that workout.

01:23:24.000 But you'll have glycogen stores slightly more ready for the hard workout again tomorrow.

01:23:29.000 Now, what are you trying to accomplish here?

01:23:31.000 What I'm saying is I'd rather just do the workout really hard, get all of the benefits, the growth benefits that I'm looking for, and not have to do it again tomorrow.

01:23:41.000 I want to work as little as possible.

01:23:43.000 If I'm going to do a leg day and puke, you know, for...

01:23:47.000 Because of it, today, I don't want to do it again tomorrow.

01:23:49.000 I'm only working out to get the benefits.

01:23:51.000 I'm not working out for the sake of working out.

01:23:53.000 I'm not working out every single day because I just love to go to the gym, and some people do, by the way, and I'm not going to judge that.

01:24:00.000 But I'm working out to get the most amount of benefits I can from the work that I've chosen to do.

01:24:05.000 And in this case, that includes my strategy post-workout.

01:24:11.000 That makes sense?

01:24:11.000 It does, but it's fascinating because I've never heard that before.

01:24:14.000 There's a catch-22, so refueling the glycogen levels actually depletes.

01:24:22.000 It blunts.

01:24:23.000 Blunts is the best word?

01:24:25.000 Yeah.

01:24:25.000 Deplenishes?

01:24:26.000 That's not even a word.

01:24:27.000 I like it.

01:24:27.000 Make it up.

01:24:28.000 Let's trademark it right now.

01:24:30.000 Deplenishes.

01:24:31.000 Deplenishes.

01:24:31.000 I just said it like it was real, too.

01:24:34.000 But I've never heard that before.

01:24:36.000 So there's got to be a catch-22 in there, then.

01:24:39.000 It seems like...

01:24:41.000 So, is there a negative effect of having those hard workouts more than one day in a row, and would you be better off and would you gain more if you went the way you're doing it by not replenishing?

01:24:54.000 I'm saying you do.

01:24:55.000 Wow.

01:24:56.000 Now, it's...

01:24:57.000 Even for an elite athlete that's competing in a sport, like say, mixed martial arts or something along those lines?

01:25:02.000 You know, it depends on what the game plan is for the week.

01:25:05.000 And what the game plan is to get you into the ring or to get you to the starting line.

01:25:10.000 And in this case, if we say, you know, you're doing...

01:25:15.000 Let's just use a leg day again.

01:25:19.000 You know, you're doing hard legs.

01:25:21.000 You don't want to do it again tomorrow.

01:25:22.000 So there's no need to take the post-workout drink.

01:25:27.000 Because here's what else...

01:25:28.000 The other thing that happens is if you have...

01:25:31.000 If you wait...

01:25:34.000 Maybe in an hour or two, you have a meal, but it's not even a high-carb meal.

01:25:38.000 It's just a regular meal.

01:25:39.000 It's not high-carb.

01:25:40.000 It's not contemplated to increase glycogen stores.

01:25:44.000 But within that meal, and within the next meal, and within the next meal, your body will replenish glycogen.

01:25:50.000 Eventually, it wants to do that.

01:25:52.000 You're not preventing it from replenishing glycogen.

01:25:54.000 So there's no immediate urgency to do it with a post-workout drink.

01:26:02.000 The meals planned for the rest of the day or the next morning have some amount of carbohydrate, some of which will go to replenishing glycogen.

01:26:10.000 So you might wind up, instead of having restored, you know, 275 grams of glycogen, you've restored 230. Big deal.

01:26:18.000 What about the benefits of forcing your body to do more work to up your conditioning level?

01:26:26.000 And would that be mitigated or would some...

01:26:31.000 What your strategy being to not replenish the stores after the workout and to not have those hard workouts two days in a row, if you instead I had the hard workout, went through your idea of allowing your body to have its natural uptake of testosterone and growth hormone because of that hard workout,

01:26:52.000 then giving yourself adequate time to recover before engaging in the next hard workout, would you in fact have more progress than slamming your head up against the wall, which is at least with like...

01:27:04.000 For wrestlers and for mixed martial artists a lot of the time, that's the standard operational approach is to beat your body down, to be absolutely exhausted.

01:27:12.000 And do you think that's, in fact, maybe counterintuitive?

01:27:15.000 I totally think that is.

01:27:17.000 Wow.

01:27:17.000 I mean, the notion that...

01:27:21.000 And again, this is...

01:27:23.000 Endurance sports and mixed martial arts are very similar in it's about pain management.

01:27:28.000 It's about managing literally pain and perceived pain.

01:27:33.000 And exertion over time.

01:28:01.000 It really comes to play there and you're able to dig deeper just because you know how to beat yourself up.

01:28:08.000 So it's not to say that one's better than the other.

01:28:10.000 They're just alternative strategies.

01:28:12.000 One of the greatest runners in the country ever produced, Steve Prefontaine, was fairly talented.

01:28:17.000 He was not the most talented runner in the world.

01:28:20.000 And he would go to the starting line, and he'd look at some guy who was clearly more talented, but they'd run at similar times.

01:28:30.000 And Prefontaine would look him in the face and go, dude, he said, you may be more fit and more talented than me, but I'm willing to die for this.

01:28:36.000 I'm willing to hurt more.

01:28:37.000 And he was.

01:28:38.000 And he could dig, dig deep.

01:28:40.000 And maybe it was a result of his 120-mile weeks of training and beating himself up every day.

01:28:46.000 I suppose there's value in that, in a sport where... 0.99

01:28:50.000 You know, from the time the gun goes off till the time you cross the finish line, you're never saying to yourself in a marathon, fuck, this is fun. 0.99

01:28:57.000 Let's do this again. 0.99

01:28:58.000 You know, at the elite level, you never say that.

01:29:01.000 Right.

01:29:01.000 So it's about pain management, and there's a legitimate...

01:29:07.000 Strategy in maybe having some days where you do what I outlined and some days or some weeks where you do what you outlined.

01:29:15.000 Are they mutually exclusive, though?

01:29:16.000 Like, here's the question, like, do you have to beat yourself up in order to be mentally tough?

01:29:21.000 Can't you be mentally tough just through meditation or visualization?

01:29:24.000 Oh, I agree.

01:29:25.000 I don't think you have to beat yourself up to be mentally tough.

01:29:27.000 And the danger there is you literally beat yourself up.

01:29:29.000 The danger is you overtrain.

01:29:31.000 Yeah.

01:29:33.000 Maybe doing that and trying to force yourself into these mentally tough exercises is actually a form of weakness because you're not able to look at your body objectively.

01:29:42.000 You're not able to assess it in more of a scientific fashion.

01:29:46.000 I mean, I'm telling you, back in the day when I was doing training for marathons and triathlons, Define my self-worth based on the previous workout I'd done. 0.93

01:29:58.000 And you skip a day and you feel like a slacker and a poser and a loser.

01:30:03.000 And yet, I was chronically overtrained all the time.

01:30:09.000 I wish I had those days back because...

01:30:13.000 My career would have been extended.

01:30:15.000 On the other hand, if I had him back, I probably wouldn't have arrived where I am today through the pain and the suffering and the sacrifice.

01:30:22.000 And trying to figure out how to fix that.

01:30:24.000 Yeah.

01:30:26.000 My friend Steve Maxwell, who's a strength and conditioning coach, says that you should monitor your heart rate every morning.

01:30:32.000 And if your heart rate is over a certain beats per minute, it's over what it's naturally, normal five plus beats per minute, you should take the day off.

01:30:42.000 That's one modality.

01:30:45.000 That's one protocol.

01:30:46.000 There's now heart rate variability, which looks beyond what the heart rate is and looks at the time between the beats and suggests that...

01:30:56.000 If there's greater variability, if there's more time or there's, you know, 0.8 seconds here and 1.1 second here and 0.7 and 1.1, that that's better than having 0.9, 0.9, 0.9, 0.9.

01:31:08.000 It's sort of counterintuitive because you'd want the heart to beat metronomically.

01:31:12.000 Yeah.

01:31:12.000 But if it's beating metronomically, it's a sign of overtraining.

01:31:16.000 Really?

01:31:16.000 Yeah.

01:31:17.000 Overtraining?

01:31:17.000 Yeah, it's a sign of...

01:31:18.000 Even if it's a low heartbeat.

01:31:20.000 Correct.

01:31:21.000 So if you wake up and you've got 40 beats per minute, but they're all the same equal beats.

01:31:25.000 Yeah, I mean, that's not going to happen.

01:31:26.000 It's typically going to be higher if you've overtrained, as well as having a metronomic interval to it.

01:31:35.000 But there are programs you can get.

01:31:36.000 So you can wear your heart monitor and get these HRV, heart rate variability programs, and they'll literally tell you, they'll score you for the day.

01:31:44.000 Do you use those?

01:31:45.000 No.

01:31:46.000 I don't, primarily because I have premature ventricular contractions.

01:31:53.000 So I'm now at 62. I've been doing this for 40 years.

01:31:59.000 Actually, 50. I started running when I was 12. Jesus.

01:32:03.000 To and from school, just like that nut brown African lad, you know, with my Converse, you know, sneakers on. 1.00

01:32:12.000 So I've been doing this a long time, and I spent so much of my career, stupidly, foolishly, maxing my heart rate out every day.

01:32:21.000 So I've written about this for the last two decades, about how training for endurance competition is somewhat antithetical to health, and certainly training the way we used to, which is accumulating miles and miles and miles at a heart rate that we call the black hole, which is...

01:32:39.000 Too high to benefit on a regular basis, but too low to create sort of the interval training deal.

01:32:49.000 Again, explain it in the book, but we spent...

01:32:55.000 Years and years and years, decades, training a lot of athletes at, say, anywhere from 75 to 85% of their max heart rate for an hour, two hours, three hours at a time.

01:33:05.000 Well, over time, the heart responds to that and it gets thicker.

01:33:08.000 The heart muscle gets thicker and thicker.

01:33:11.000 Partly, it's like the heart doesn't have a say in it.

01:33:14.000 So your brain tells your legs to run, right? 0.99

01:33:16.000 And the heart goes, shit, I got to keep up with this cat. 0.99

01:33:19.000 So the heart's pumping away and pumping away and pumping away. 1.00

01:33:21.000 And if you do this enough...

01:33:23.000 Day in, day out, over years, the heart starts to get damaged a little bit.

01:33:29.000 And in some cases, it gets thicker.

01:33:30.000 The ventricle gets thicker.

01:33:31.000 Is it thicker because it's growing muscle?

01:33:33.000 Yeah, but it's not necessarily a good kind of thicker.

01:33:36.000 So it may be stretched too much.

01:33:40.000 It may not recover.

01:33:42.000 When you go to the gym and you say, we're going to do 200 preacher curls of 75 pounds, You know, you're going to say, well, maybe your biceps can handle that, Joe, but mine can't.

01:33:55.000 So, you know, because they'll fry.

01:33:57.000 They'll shred.

01:33:58.000 But you feel it.

01:34:00.000 The pain is there.

01:34:01.000 Well, the heart doesn't feel that kind of pain.

01:34:02.000 So if you force the heart to have to keep up, and it's a demand organ.

01:34:06.000 It just feeds whatever the demand is from the body.

01:34:11.000 And if that's held at too high a heart rate for too long over decades, it can manifest itself in problems.

01:34:17.000 There's, I don't know.

01:34:18.000 There's an epidemic of AFib, atrial fibrillation, in my generation of runners from that very problem.

01:34:25.000 So anyway, having said that, so I have the occasional premature ventricular contraction, which is just a couple of cells in the heart, maybe a thickness in the ventricle, that misfire every once in a while.

01:34:34.000 It's not life-threatening.

01:34:36.000 It's just annoying.

01:34:38.000 But it makes my HRV look really good, because I have this big interval between beats sometimes, you know?

01:34:45.000 But it's a false positive.

01:34:47.000 Wow, that's fascinating.

01:34:49.000 So you don't necessarily monitor your heart rate because of that?

01:34:52.000 No.

01:34:53.000 So you kind of more go on the way you feel?

01:34:55.000 Yeah, and again, at my age, I just want to have fun.

01:34:59.000 I just want to play.

01:35:01.000 I'm not seeking to win any age group competitions anymore.

01:35:05.000 Those days are long behind me.

01:35:06.000 It hurts too much.

01:35:09.000 I'm trying to extract the greatest amount of pleasure out of my life.

01:35:12.000 So when I go to the gym...

01:35:14.000 It's pretty much contemplated to do as little as possible that keeps me looking good naked, but also keeps me somewhat immune from injury.

01:35:24.000 They're very honest of you, by the way.

01:35:25.000 Whatever, you know?

01:35:26.000 I don't even care about that anymore.

01:35:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:35:29.000 No, I'm going to care about that until the day I die.

01:35:32.000 But for the most part, it's about avoiding injury when I'm playing.

01:35:37.000 So if I'm playing Frisbee, you know, I'm sprinting.

01:35:41.000 I'm keeping up with 20-somethings on a long bomb run to the end zone and then have to turn around and come back and get them on defense.

01:35:50.000 That...

01:35:52.000 It has some cost attached to it, some metabolic costs for an old guy like me.

01:35:56.000 So the stuff I do in the gym is trying to keep me from getting injured, knock wood.

01:36:00.000 And then I spend time on the, you know, I'll paddle for two hours.

01:36:04.000 And it's the best upper body workout you'll ever get.

01:36:06.000 Paddling?

01:36:07.000 Yeah.

01:36:07.000 Really?

01:36:08.000 Stand-up paddling, yeah.

01:36:09.000 And, you know, it's fun and I don't think, oh God, when's it going to be over? 0.97

01:36:14.000 I'd think, oh shit, I've got to get back because I've got a meeting. 0.95

01:36:16.000 You know, I'm out hanging out with dolphins and whales and looking down at fish and catching a wave once in a while. 0.98

01:36:20.000 I'm trying to have fun when I move, when I work out.

01:36:24.000 I did some paddling a few years back.

01:36:28.000 I did a canoe trip down the Missouri River, and I was shocked at how tired my arms got.

01:36:35.000 I'm like, this is like a legit workout.

01:36:37.000 I thought I was in pretty good shape.

01:36:38.000 I'm like...

01:36:39.000 It's going to be nothing.

01:36:40.000 Paddling. 0.99

01:36:41.000 It's ain't shit. 0.99

01:36:41.000 No, no, no. 0.99

01:36:42.000 It's hard.

01:36:42.000 Take some good shots after paddling.

01:36:45.000 And that's how I treated it as a workout, too.

01:36:48.000 I just decided, like, okay, we're doing this for a couple hours a day.

01:36:51.000 I'm going to go hard.

01:36:52.000 I'm going to leave it all out there on the river.

01:36:55.000 And we were with some other guys.

01:36:56.000 We were in another boat. 1.00

01:36:57.000 I was trying to kick their ass. 1.00

01:36:58.000 So I was just trying to stay ahead of them the entire way and calling them pussies and yelling at them. 1.00

01:37:03.000 Yeah, but it's great. 0.99

01:37:04.000 It's lat workout, it's serratus, it's deltoids, it's everything.

01:37:07.000 One of the big issues with jujitsu competitors and people just practice even as a hobby is joint injuries, inflammation of the joints and also spine injuries, a lot of bulging discs, a lot of things along those lines.

01:37:23.000 Do you think that some of that could be mitigated by reducing the amount of inflammatory foods?

01:37:31.000 You know, you've got such a trauma-based sport.

01:37:36.000 Maybe a little, you know, if you're 10% less prone to getting the disc issue or the joint pain as a result.

01:37:47.000 But a lot of that is just the brute force of the impact.

01:37:50.000 And, you know, that's a choice that you make to be in those sports.

01:37:55.000 Well, not even impact, like with grappling, a lot of it is just twisting and constant pressure and just the day-to-day grind.

01:38:05.000 I think jujitsu is one of those sports where a lot of recreational practitioners, they get really addicted to it because it's really fun.

01:38:12.000 You know, you're essentially...

01:38:14.000 You're having a life or death struggle with someone, and you can tap out and then go right back at it.

01:38:19.000 And it's very different than a lot of other martial arts in that way, that you can kind of do it full blast.

01:38:26.000 Whereas sparring, like kickboxing and things, you really can't do it full blast for very long, because the body just can't take it, the head can't take it, especially.

01:38:34.000 Yeah.

01:38:36.000 With jujitsu, a lot of guys are injured.

01:38:38.000 They just wrap themselves up and kind of go back in.

01:38:41.000 Or they say, oh, I'm just going to roll light.

01:38:43.000 And my neck's bothering me.

01:38:44.000 Just lay off my neck.

01:38:46.000 And I always wonder, is there maybe a dietary choice that could perhaps limit the amount of inflammation that you're experiencing after these brutal workouts?

01:38:56.000 Depends.

01:38:56.000 I mean, if the diet is currently horrendous, then there's probably some amount of management of that that could be increased, and pain management could be a little bit better and less inflammation, for sure.

01:39:11.000 But if the diet's already good, then you're still putting the body through some unnatural torsions.

01:39:19.000 I'm just amazed that when you were talking about your hands and arthritis deep into your 40s, that you were able to mitigate that just by changing your diet.

01:39:27.000 It was so powerful.

01:39:30.000 Actually, the most powerful thing for me was the IBS because it literally ruined my life or ruled my life.

01:39:36.000 But the arthritis thing was like, I mean, I'd play golf with friends, and I was like, I can't even grip the friggin' club the way I need to.

01:39:43.000 And now you have no problems. 0.98

01:39:44.000 You know, I'd meet you, and I'd go, shit, is Joe gonna try to out-bro-shake me, you know, and take me to the ground with a firm grip? 0.99

01:39:53.000 How about when they get the tips of your fingers? 0.99

01:39:54.000 Oh, Jesus. 1.00

01:39:54.000 Those assholes. 1.00

01:39:55.000 It's over. 1.00

01:39:56.000 Those tips of the fingers, guys.

01:39:57.000 It's over. 1.00

01:39:57.000 Shit. 1.00

01:39:58.000 I hate those fucks. 1.00

01:39:59.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:40:03.000 I'm very careful shaking hands, too, because I know a lot of people with broken hands.

01:40:07.000 Fighters, especially after fights, you have to be real careful.

01:40:11.000 I give them the most gentle handshake possible.

01:40:17.000 What other ways do you think there are dietary ways to reduce inflammation other than reduction of grains or elimination of grains?

01:40:28.000 You know, I say if you get rid of the industrial seed oils, so you replace the soybean oil, the canola oil, The corn oil.

01:40:36.000 And look at the labels of the ingredients because they're all over the place.

01:40:39.000 What's the different mechanism in the body as far as the way your body processes soy or corn oil versus coconut oil?

01:40:49.000 It's just the profile of the fatty acids.

01:40:50.000 These are polyunsaturated fatty acids.

01:40:52.000 Sometimes they're partially hydrogenated.

01:40:54.000 Sometimes they've been processed with sort of nasty processing agents like nickel.

01:41:01.000 And they've been...

01:41:03.000 They've undergone enough alteration that maybe they contain some trans fats.

01:41:07.000 Trans fats are known to be pro-inflammatory.

01:41:13.000 By the way, omega-6 in and of themselves are not bad.

01:41:17.000 There's omega-3, there's omega-6, there's 9, there's 7, there's 12, there's all these, but the 3 to 6 ratio is the one that's gotten the most press over the last decade.

01:41:25.000 Omega-3 fatty acids are found in fish, krill oil or fish oil, things like that.

01:41:31.000 Do you supplement with fish oil?

01:41:32.000 A little bit, yeah.

01:41:33.000 Not a lot, but a little bit.

01:41:34.000 How much?

01:41:35.000 A couple of capsules every other day.

01:41:38.000 Oh, really?

01:41:39.000 Every other day?

01:41:39.000 Yeah.

01:41:40.000 And I manufacture them, too.

01:41:42.000 I mean, it's part of my line of products.

01:41:45.000 But...

01:41:46.000 Because my diet is pretty much based on an otherwise healthy intake of omega-3s, and more importantly, a reduction of omega-6.

01:41:54.000 So it's not that omega-3s are by themselves anti-inflammatory, they are, and omega-6s are pro-inflammatory, but it's this ratio.

01:42:04.000 There's some requirement for omega-6 in the body, but when the ratio gets way thrown off, it tends to be a pro-inflammatory reaction.

01:42:10.000 And where do omega-6s come from?

01:42:11.000 Those are the industrial seed oils that we talked about.

01:42:13.000 And so there's a slight benefit to having some industrial seed oils?

01:42:17.000 Well, no, no.

01:42:17.000 There's a slight benefit to having omega-6 from other sources.

01:42:20.000 What are the other sources?

01:42:22.000 Most fish will also have O6. They're everywhere.

01:42:28.000 They're in any kind of fatty food.

01:42:31.000 Nuts will have them. 0.99

01:42:34.000 That's probably the source that most people on the paleo movement get the omega-6 from.

01:42:40.000 But yeah, it's about sort of the totality of the diet, and it's largely a result, again, of what you're not eating, what you eliminate from the diet that has the greatest effect, not what you're eating.

01:42:52.000 So when people say, well, paleo diet, I mean, I've had such great results on the vegan diet, or I've had great results on some vegetarian diet. 0.96

01:43:00.000 I go, well, you're not eating the same shit we're not eating. 0.98

01:43:03.000 So... 0.99

01:43:04.000 The fact that you get your protein from plant sources, I'm maybe going to suggest you could have more protein, but it's not that big a deal.

01:43:12.000 It's really about what you've eliminated that has the greatest impact on your health.

01:43:17.000 Yeah, I have conversations like that often with people that are vegan, where they start talking about all the different things they eat, how much better they feel, and I tell them, listen, I eat all the same things you eat.

01:43:28.000 Like, my diet is pretty vegan other than meat.

01:43:31.000 Yeah.

01:43:31.000 I mean, most of what, like this morning, what I had, I drank a kale shake, so I blend kale with cucumbers, and I know it's gross, but it makes me feel amazing.

01:43:40.000 I blend kale with cucumbers, garlic, Celery, ginger, and a pear.

01:43:49.000 I throw a pear in, and I blend that up in a half a beet.

01:43:53.000 I blend that all up, and I ate an elk steak.

01:43:56.000 So the two things together, that's what I eat.

01:44:00.000 That's my lunch.

01:44:01.000 That's what I had.

01:44:02.000 I didn't eat breakfast.

01:44:03.000 I just ate lunch today.

01:44:03.000 How does the kale shake taste?

01:44:05.000 It's like shit. 0.99

01:44:06.000 It doesn't taste good. 1.00

01:44:07.000 One of my rules is...

01:44:11.000 I don't put anything in my mouth that doesn't taste awesome.

01:44:12.000 But it feels good, man.

01:44:14.000 I'm telling you.

01:44:14.000 I eat that.

01:44:15.000 I get this burst of nutrients.

01:44:17.000 I'm going to keep doing it.

01:44:19.000 It's not too terrible with a full pear in.

01:44:22.000 Because the full pear, it's a big Bartlett pear.

01:44:25.000 It blunts a little bit of the garlic.

01:44:28.000 It's very sweet.

01:44:29.000 But is that too much sugar, that one pear?

01:44:32.000 It depends on what your sugar load is over the course of a day.

01:44:35.000 If that's the only sugar you get.

01:44:37.000 Pears are pretty high in sugar, but if it's a whole pear, I don't think it's...

01:44:43.000 I eat a pear before a yoga class, too.

01:44:46.000 That gets me through a yoga class.

01:44:49.000 Is pears your favorite fruit or something?

01:44:51.000 I like pears.

01:44:52.000 Wow, good for you.

01:44:52.000 It's totally good.

01:44:53.000 You're the first guy I've known that's favorite fruit is a pear.

01:44:57.000 Really?

01:44:57.000 I mean, I like a pear, but I say...

01:44:59.000 I like mangoes.

01:45:00.000 Yeah.

01:45:00.000 Mangoes are my also favorite.

01:45:02.000 Mangoes are awesome, yeah.

01:45:03.000 I take sliced mangoes.

01:45:04.000 I'll do that.

01:45:05.000 What would be better, pears or mangoes?

01:45:06.000 No, no, no.

01:45:07.000 No difference?

01:45:08.000 No difference.

01:45:09.000 But fruit is what I usually choose before I work out, but now I'm thinking that maybe fruit is a little too high in sugar listening to you, or I should limit the amount of it I have in a day.

01:45:19.000 And again, if you like where you're at and everything's good and life is wonderful and you enjoy it, then I'm not going to tell you to stop doing it.

01:45:26.000 Well, I'm all about optimizing. 0.99

01:45:27.000 I mean, if I can chuck down those kale shakes, I'm obviously willing to eat some horrible shit to feel better. 0.99

01:45:34.000 It's not that horrible. 0.99

01:45:36.000 I kind of exaggerate a little bit.

01:45:38.000 My tolerance for gross food is pretty high.

01:45:41.000 I can eat it. 1.00

01:45:43.000 Did you ever eat any of that shit on Fear Factor? 1.00

01:45:45.000 Yeah, I ate a bunch of shit. 1.00

01:45:46.000 Oh, good, good. 1.00

01:45:47.000 I ate eyeballs, sheep's eyeballs. 0.99

01:45:50.000 I ate super worms.

01:45:51.000 Those worms they use on cadavers to clean up bones. 0.68

01:45:55.000 I ate tomato hornworm.

01:45:58.000 That was pretty gross.

01:45:59.000 I ate Madagascar hissing cockroach. 1.00

01:46:01.000 That's the one I think I would have drawn the line.

01:46:04.000 That one was the easiest to do.

01:46:06.000 Really?

01:46:06.000 Yep.

01:46:06.000 It's all psychological.

01:46:08.000 It's chewy, but it's very mild.

01:46:10.000 It has almost no flavor.

01:46:12.000 It was all just in your head.

01:46:14.000 That was no big deal at all.

01:46:15.000 The really hard things to eat.

01:46:17.000 It's really interesting.

01:46:18.000 The smells were probably the hardest part.

01:46:21.000 And a big factor in the smell was they would add this really expensive cheese.

01:46:29.000 They would go to this Beverly Hills...

01:46:31.000 What is a formagerie? 0.99

01:46:33.000 What is one of those fucking places called where they sell the cheese? 0.99

01:46:36.000 Formagerie? 1.00

01:46:37.000 Anyway, it was a very expensive type of French cheese that just smells like fucking death. 0.99

01:46:44.000 Because cheese... 0.99

01:46:45.000 A big part of what makes a cheese fragrant or interesting is the culture, which is actually bacteria.

01:46:52.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:46:52.000 So we would buy this bacteria-laden cheese that smelled so fucking bad. 0.98

01:46:57.000 They would take it and they would open the little plastic tub in front of me and stick it in front of me. 0.98

01:47:03.000 I would be like, oh! 1.00

01:47:03.000 And they'd be like, dude, that shit is expensive. 1.00

01:47:06.000 Really expensive. 1.00

01:47:07.000 And we would throw that into a blender full of maggots, and that's what would make it disgusting. 0.99

01:47:14.000 The maggots on their own really didn't have that much of a smell or taste.

01:47:19.000 It's more psychological than it is anything.

01:47:22.000 A lot of the stuff on Fear Factor.

01:47:24.000 And then there was, a lot of it was just the sheer volume. 1.00

01:47:27.000 Like they would have to drink, you know, a gigantic blender filled with this horrible shit. 0.99

01:47:33.000 And just the amount of mass that you're putting in your body and you have like three minutes to do it or whatever. 1.00

01:47:38.000 And keep it down.

01:47:39.000 Yeah.

01:47:40.000 I think we gave them like, they had to keep it down for like 30 seconds or something like that.

01:47:44.000 So then at the end of that 30 seconds, they would sprint towards a...

01:47:47.000 Would everybody hurl?

01:47:48.000 Oh yeah.

01:47:49.000 Yeah.

01:47:49.000 I saw more people.

01:47:50.000 I've probably seen more people throw up than a very small percentage of the population.

01:47:58.000 Than most ERs, right?

01:47:59.000 Well, maybe ERs would have me.

01:48:01.000 Like, nightclub bouncers might have me.

01:48:03.000 If you put in 20 years as a nightclub bouncer, you'd probably see more people puke than me.

01:48:08.000 Because you're seeing it every night.

01:48:10.000 To me, it was only one day a week. 0.99

01:48:11.000 But one day a week, I'd watch at least two people just fucking hurl. 0.99

01:48:17.000 Projectile vomit. 0.99

01:48:19.000 Yeah.

01:48:20.000 But, again, more psychological than anything.

01:48:23.000 The actual taste of those things, especially the roach, was nothing.

01:48:27.000 It's really no big deal.

01:48:28.000 If I was starving somewhere and I found a big batch of hissing cockroaches, those Madagascar ones, I would definitely scoop those up and eat them. 1.00

01:48:41.000 A bar company called Exo that makes their bars out of cricket protein.

01:48:44.000 And I'm an investor in their company there.

01:48:46.000 And I'm fascinated by the concept that a billion and a half, two billion people around the world eat insects all the time and think nothing of it.

01:48:54.000 Yeah.

01:48:55.000 Well, that's what a lobster is. 0.96

01:48:56.000 Yeah.

01:48:57.000 One of the things that we found out when we did Fear Factor was if you have an allergy to shellfish, you also have an allergy to roaches.

01:49:02.000 We found that out the hard way because a guy who listed shellfish as an allergy ate a roach and got really sick.

01:49:09.000 We had to take them to the ER, they had to give them an adrenaline shot, the whole deal.

01:49:13.000 So the enzymes apparently are very similar.

01:49:17.000 But you could eat those bugs and they're very high in protein and very good for you.

01:49:21.000 And they could also be an excellent source of protein, an inexpensive source of protein for a lot of people.

01:49:29.000 The cricket thing is very sustainable.

01:49:31.000 It's like 20 times fewer resources than an equivalent amount of steak.

01:49:37.000 And also, equivalent amount of amino acids.

01:49:40.000 Oh, very good profile.

01:49:42.000 Yeah.

01:49:42.000 That's really fascinating to me, that you could get really high quality protein from bugs.

01:49:49.000 Huh.

01:49:49.000 We're prejudiced against bugs.

01:49:51.000 I guess.

01:49:52.000 I mean, I'm trying not to be anymore.

01:49:53.000 Do you eat your bars?

01:49:55.000 Oh, yeah.

01:49:55.000 Do you?

01:49:56.000 Do you eat them all the time?

01:49:56.000 All the time.

01:49:57.000 Do people like them?

01:49:57.000 I shouldn't say all the time just because I don't use those kind of snacks.

01:50:02.000 I make my own bar.

01:50:02.000 But because the guys who started EXO are really on to something and they're trying to change the way the world thinks about sourcing protein.

01:50:11.000 So the first hurdle they have to overcome is making a bar taste great and not turn people off because...

01:50:17.000 It's crickets.

01:50:18.000 Because it's crickets.

01:50:19.000 And there's not like heads and antenna sticking out of these bars.

01:50:22.000 It's powder.

01:50:22.000 It's been ground down to a fine powder.

01:50:24.000 And it basically looks and probably tastes the same as whey protein isolate does.

01:50:28.000 Yeah.

01:50:29.000 Once it's ground down, right?

01:50:30.000 Once it's ground down.

01:50:31.000 Do you lose any of it when you're dehydrating it or grinding it down or turning it into a powder?

01:50:36.000 It retains its properties pretty nicely.

01:50:40.000 So there's no benefit whatsoever to eating it fresh?

01:50:43.000 Not necessarily, no.

01:50:44.000 I mean, if you can compact more into a...

01:50:46.000 I mean, that's the beauty of, I think, insect protein powder is to be able to fortify foods that otherwise, you know, rather than having 40 crickets on a stick, you know, to have the powder equivalent in a bar is kind of a neat way of doing it.

01:51:02.000 I've eaten crickets like that, too, like roasted crickets.

01:51:05.000 They don't taste bad at all.

01:51:06.000 No, they're not bad.

01:51:07.000 It's all in the head.

01:51:08.000 It really is.

01:51:09.000 It's all in your mind.

01:51:09.000 You chew them, they're crunchy, and they're roasted over a fire.

01:51:13.000 They're actually not bad at all.

01:51:14.000 I mean, they're sold as delicacy in the streets of Bangkok and most of Asia.

01:51:19.000 Especially if you put some spices on them or something like that.

01:51:21.000 They can actually be quite tasty.

01:51:22.000 Like maybe some butter, some oil, and some spices on them.

01:51:26.000 Yeah, we have these ideas about...

01:51:28.000 Different things that are good to eat and not good to eat.

01:51:31.000 It's more based on custom than anything in a lot of ways.

01:51:35.000 I wonder how many people that are vegan would be willing to eat bugs.

01:51:38.000 You know, vegan, as far as I know, it goes against their...

01:51:42.000 Well, they don't even want to use honey. 0.96

01:51:44.000 No, it's crazy.

01:51:45.000 No, that's funny you say that because we've got a bar that we just introduced with grass-fed whey protein isolate and it's got collagen and it's a great bar.

01:51:57.000 And we tried to make one for the vegan community and because it has...

01:52:02.000 Honey in it as a sweetener.

01:52:03.000 The vegans said, we can't eat because it has honey.

01:52:06.000 It's bees.

01:52:08.000 Those bees are slaves, man. 0.93

01:52:11.000 Whatever.

01:52:13.000 It's okay.

01:52:15.000 Whatever they want.

01:52:16.000 You want to go that way.

01:52:17.000 Honey is awesome. 1.00

01:52:18.000 You fucks. 0.99

01:52:21.000 Is there any nutritional benefit to being a vegan? 1.00

01:52:24.000 Or is there deficits involved in it?

01:52:28.000 I think that's probably some foods that you're not getting that would provide micronutrients, micronutrition that would be beneficial to you in the long run.

01:52:37.000 And yet the human body is so friggin' adaptable to any sort of dietary strategy.

01:52:45.000 I mean, you know, you see eight-foot-tall Africans, you know, they go play in the NBA that grew up on, you know, 500 calories a day in cow patties. 1.00

01:52:55.000 Yeah.

01:52:56.000 You know, during the Irish potato famine, people live for six weeks on shoe leather and seaweed.

01:53:01.000 I mean, the human body is pretty adaptable.

01:53:03.000 So on that one hand, you can't describe the perfect diet.

01:53:09.000 So if you're choosing to be vegan and that's what you want to do and you're mindful about it, And you're not militant about it and not trying to convince everybody else that that's what they ought to do, then go for it.

01:53:21.000 Well, that doesn't exist.

01:53:22.000 There's so few people.

01:53:23.000 That's almost a requirement.

01:53:25.000 That's the unicorn fart.

01:53:26.000 A requirement of membership.

01:53:28.000 Yeah.

01:53:32.000 There's a few plants that do have a full, complete amino acid profile, right?

01:53:37.000 Like quinoa is one of them.

01:53:39.000 Yeah, I mean, there's great plants.

01:53:41.000 I wouldn't say they have a full amino acid profile.

01:53:44.000 What's lacking?

01:53:45.000 Well, if there's nothing lacking, it's the relative amounts that make the difference.

01:53:50.000 So it's a protein efficiency ratio.

01:53:51.000 Right.

01:54:04.000 Yeah, someone was trying to describe that to me, the amount of broccoli you would need to get the same amount of protein and amino acids as an 8-ounce steak.

01:54:12.000 It's something insane.

01:54:14.000 It's like 2 pounds of broccoli.

01:54:16.000 Yeah, I don't think it's insane.

01:54:17.000 I just think it's...

01:54:18.000 Because those same people will argue that there's...

01:54:21.000 I think it's on a per pound base.

01:54:27.000 It's almost like it has the same amount of amino acids.

01:54:29.000 I forget where I heard that.

01:54:30.000 Some vegan cited that to me.

01:54:32.000 And I know that broccoli does have some amino acids in it.

01:54:35.000 You just have to eat a big bowl of it.

01:54:37.000 And if you're a vegan, that's what you do anyway.

01:54:38.000 So I'm not going to criticize that choice.

01:54:41.000 I just think that...

01:54:42.000 If you're missing certain amino acids, you better balance it with something coming from legumes or some other source.

01:54:49.000 You have to figure out what amino acids are lacking based on what plant protein you're taking in.

01:54:53.000 The human diet was always based on a wide variety of things you were taking in.

01:54:56.000 Not just one kind of thing, but something off of this shrub, off of this bush, out of this ground, and a tuber here, and some quail eggs here.

01:55:05.000 It was always 200 different choices within a five-mile radius.

01:55:11.000 Whatever you get your hands on.

01:55:13.000 And that's where the insects came in.

01:55:15.000 We don't talk about amphibians, but imagine living on frogs and snakes and eggs and wheatgrass.

01:55:24.000 It's pretty amazing the variety of foods that we can eat.

01:55:28.000 So typically you start your morning off with butter coffee, with MCT oil?

01:55:32.000 Is that what you put in it?

01:55:33.000 I don't.

01:55:33.000 I just eat regular coffee.

01:55:35.000 Just regular coffee?

01:55:35.000 I don't...

01:55:37.000 I'll have buttered coffee every once in a while, but I don't feel like I need the calories to get my day going.

01:55:43.000 I just want the cup of coffee.

01:55:45.000 You just want the caffeine.

01:55:45.000 I just want the caffeine, and I actually don't want to interfere with burning off my own body fat.

01:55:52.000 Not that it interferes with it, but that's 500 calories or 250 calories coming out of the coffee that otherwise is coming off my gut.

01:56:02.000 Interesting.

01:56:03.000 So, when you wake up in the morning, it's all dependent upon how hungry you are.

01:56:08.000 Yeah.

01:56:08.000 So, if you're hungry, maybe then you'll have some butter coffee.

01:56:11.000 Yep.

01:56:12.000 And if you're not hungry, you'll just have regular coffee.

01:56:14.000 Black. 0.93

01:56:15.000 No, a little bit of cream, but just enough to color it.

01:56:18.000 And your first meal of the day is probably lunch?

01:56:22.000 Yep.

01:56:22.000 And what is that?

01:56:24.000 Usually a salad. 0.97

01:56:25.000 I have a big ass salad, I call it. 0.81

01:56:27.000 And it's lots of greens and some form of protein. 0.59

01:56:32.000 Might be salmon, might be chicken from last night's dinner.

01:56:35.000 Might be tuna.

01:56:38.000 And what size?

01:56:39.000 Like an 8-ounce portion?

01:56:40.000 No, no, it's a bit.

01:56:41.000 No, I mean protein.

01:56:42.000 No, not much protein.

01:56:43.000 That's the other thing that I've realized over the years is that we don't need that much protein.

01:56:48.000 And even if you're doing work in the gym, you know, you don't need 200 grams of protein a day. 0.99

01:56:52.000 That's bullshit. 0.99

01:56:53.000 You just can't process that. 1.00

01:56:54.000 Well, what is that from?

01:56:55.000 That's from the bodybuilder powerlifting mentality?

01:56:58.000 Yeah, so that's from the muscle and fitness days, and that's from Dave Draper and his Freaking, you know, blender full of stuff.

01:57:03.000 Who's Dave Draper?

01:57:04.000 Oh my god, you don't...

01:57:05.000 So Dave Draper is before your time, man.

01:57:07.000 So he was one of the original...

01:57:09.000 Southern California Blonde Bodybuilders.

01:57:11.000 He was in every ad for shakes and mass gainers and things like that.

01:57:17.000 Mass gain.

01:57:17.000 Yeah.

01:57:18.000 That's all sugar, right?

01:57:19.000 Yeah.

01:57:19.000 A lot of those things.

01:57:20.000 Oh, that's nasty stuff. 0.83

01:57:22.000 That's just like cheap-ass protein and high fructose corn syrup. 0.95

01:57:27.000 There he is.

01:57:27.000 Yeah, stay busy.

01:57:28.000 Swole.

01:57:29.000 Yeah.

01:57:30.000 On the beach.

01:57:31.000 Hello, ladies. 1.00

01:57:35.000 So that guy would advocate massive amounts?

01:57:39.000 Yeah, but I mean, that guy, you know, when you can process, when you're taking in, you know, superhuman levels of steroids, you can process all kinds of protein.

01:57:48.000 Look at him today.

01:57:49.000 Is that today, Jamie?

01:57:50.000 More recent, 2005. Still looking pretty good.

01:57:54.000 He's probably about 70 there.

01:57:56.000 60 what?

01:57:57.000 63. 63 right there.

01:57:58.000 He's your age.

01:57:59.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:57:59.000 Yolked as fuck. 1.00

01:58:00.000 Look at him. 1.00

01:58:02.000 Maybe he does a little steroids, too.

01:58:04.000 What do you think?

01:58:05.000 Could be, huh?

01:58:08.000 So people needing protein, it's maybe women probably need 50 to 75, maybe 80 grams a day. 1.00

01:58:16.000 Even guys training fairly hard, no more than 130, 140 grams a day.

01:58:21.000 Now, what's the muscle and fitness mentality or the powerlifting mentality?

01:58:27.000 It's like there's a certain amount of grams per pound of body weight that they describe.

01:58:30.000 Yeah.

01:58:31.000 Well, you know, that's all over the place.

01:58:33.000 So it might have been one gram per pound of body weight or 1.5 grams per pound of body weight.

01:58:37.000 That's like 200 grams a day for me.

01:58:39.000 Or, yeah.

01:58:40.000 A gram, I'm 200 pounds, so I would have to have 200 grams of protein.

01:58:44.000 That's a shitload of protein.

01:58:45.000 How much is a steak?

01:58:46.000 Like a 12-ounce steak?

01:58:47.000 50, 60. Jesus Christ.

01:58:50.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:58:50.000 So I'd have to eat four fucking steaks in a day? 1.00

01:58:52.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:58:52.000 I mean, by the time you cook that down... 0.99

01:58:54.000 Yeah.

01:58:55.000 Might be less, right?

01:58:56.000 What about eggs?

01:58:57.000 How much is an egg?

01:58:58.000 Seven or eight per egg.

01:58:59.000 That's it?

01:58:59.000 Yeah, that's why these guys would do a whole dozen eggs in their shake.

01:59:03.000 You know, that'd be 70 or 80 or 90 or whatever grams of protein plus some powder in there.

01:59:10.000 But, you know, what we learned a long time ago is the body really can't handle more than 30, 35 grams of protein at a sitting.

01:59:16.000 Oh.

01:59:16.000 So the rest of it turns into, you know...

01:59:19.000 Farts.

01:59:20.000 Yeah.

01:59:23.000 So if you're eating, that's one thing, if you've ever been around people who drink a lot of protein shakes and eat protein bars, their farts are brutal.

01:59:31.000 Like bodybuilder type dudes.

01:59:33.000 And that's just, they just, they have too much protein, right?

01:59:36.000 Yeah.

01:59:36.000 Among other things, yeah.

01:59:37.000 Yeah.

01:59:38.000 A lot of that is, you know, they haven't, who knows what's going on with their gut bacteria, too.

01:59:44.000 Yeah.

01:59:44.000 That's a lot of protein to put in there.

01:59:45.000 They're probably, if they're eating that much protein, they're not eating Much in the way of vegetables. 0.99

01:59:49.000 And those muscle milk type supplements, although they are delicious, there's a lot of sugar in those damn things. 0.98

01:59:54.000 Absolutely, yeah. 0.98

01:59:55.000 All those bars, a lot of bars have a lot of sugar in them. 0.98

01:59:58.000 It's a giant issue.

02:00:00.000 Yeah.

02:00:02.000 So you think that these guys, these bodybuilder guys or powerlifter guys that are operating on that inefficient method of one gram per one pound, if they had reduced it, they would still have the same amount of gains and maybe their body would operate more efficiently?

02:00:19.000 Are we talking on the juice or off the juice?

02:00:21.000 Oh, okay.

02:00:22.000 That's a good point.

02:00:23.000 So if they're on steroids, they can process it.

02:00:27.000 Back to your point about I'm a hard gainer and putting on muscle is difficult.

02:00:33.000 Most people who are overweight don't want to hear this, but putting on muscle is much more difficult than losing body fat.

02:00:39.000 If you take a 165-pound guy and he says, I want to put on 20 pounds of muscle, ain't going to happen.

02:00:47.000 You know, might put on 10 pounds of muscle, might put on 7 over a very focused period of time.

02:00:52.000 It might have to work hard to keep it on.

02:00:54.000 Yeah.

02:00:54.000 Because that's the body also going, if you don't create on a daily basis my requirement to continue to maintain this muscle mass, I'm going back down to where I was.

02:01:03.000 Right.

02:01:03.000 It seems to me that there's like a number of...

02:01:17.000 Yep.

02:01:30.000 Exactly.

02:01:31.000 Did you bring your own honey?

02:01:33.000 Is that what's going on over there?

02:01:34.000 No, no, no.

02:01:34.000 What is that?

02:01:35.000 That's your honey.

02:01:37.000 I'm having some tea here.

02:01:40.000 This guy's serious.

02:01:41.000 Brings his own honey.

02:01:42.000 No, no, no.

02:01:43.000 But honey's good for you, isn't it?

02:01:44.000 No.

02:01:45.000 Raw honey? 0.54

02:01:45.000 No. 0.54

02:01:45.000 How dare you? 0.54

02:01:46.000 I know.

02:01:47.000 Who are you?

02:01:48.000 It's not good for you.

02:01:50.000 It's not going to kill you.

02:01:52.000 That's one of those moderation foods.

02:01:54.000 In this case, I put a couple of drops in the tea.

02:01:57.000 But I always hear it's really good, like raw honey.

02:01:59.000 Who do you hear it from?

02:02:00.000 Not the vegans, we know that.

02:02:03.000 People make honey? 1.00

02:02:04.000 I don't know.

02:02:05.000 It's something that I've always heard.

02:02:07.000 It's not bad.

02:02:09.000 High in sugar.

02:02:11.000 It's a form of sugar, and if you overdo it, then it's probably not as wise a decision as to cut it back.

02:02:17.000 So we got to your lunch, your lunch with a big ass out with a small amount of protein, so maybe like four ounces of protein or something along those lines? 0.98

02:02:23.000 Yeah.

02:02:24.000 Okay, with a piece of chicken or a piece of fish or something like that.

02:02:26.000 And then what about dinner?

02:02:29.000 Dinner, I like to have a steak.

02:02:31.000 I got this wagyu short rib that I get.

02:02:34.000 You like that stuff, huh?

02:02:35.000 It is so good.

02:02:36.000 But it's all fatty.

02:02:37.000 Yeah, that's the point.

02:02:38.000 You like that?

02:02:39.000 That's the point.

02:02:40.000 Man.

02:02:40.000 Yeah.

02:02:41.000 Because you like fat.

02:02:42.000 Yeah.

02:02:43.000 No, my diet is probably 55% of my calories come from fat.

02:02:46.000 But Wagyu is a lot of corn-fed animal.

02:02:49.000 All right, so I make a little bit of an exception there.

02:02:53.000 I can get grass-fed when I look for it at PC Greens, where I shop in Malibu.

02:03:01.000 Or at Whole Foods or whatever.

02:03:03.000 But this Wagyu is just so delicious.

02:03:07.000 You like a nice, tender, juicy, fatty steak.

02:03:09.000 Is there any benefit?

02:03:11.000 What are the health benefits of eating grass-fed meat and using grass-fed cow's butter?

02:03:16.000 Yeah, it's really interesting because one of the things I just kind of have to raise my eyebrows at is I hear about grass-fed whey protein isolate.

02:03:25.000 So you have grass-fed whey protein.

02:03:27.000 It's whatever they put in the drink.

02:03:30.000 The reason you eat grass-fed cows is because the fatty acid profile is a more desirable fatty acid profile.

02:03:40.000 The protein complement is the exact same in a corn-fed steak or a grass-fed steak.

02:03:46.000 You just can't tell the difference in the protein.

02:03:47.000 It's the fatty acid profile that's different.

02:03:49.000 The other difference might be the residual hormones and antibiotics.

02:03:53.000 So when they raise corn-fed beef and they start from an early age, That's not the cow's native diet, so the cow tends to get sick, get infected, and so they have to use antibiotics, and sometimes they use growth hormone just to get them off the lot quicker.

02:04:11.000 So, but the reason to have grass-fed beef is the fatty acid profile is much more desirable, and yet it's still fat, so it's just a couple of different versions of stearic acid and different versions of the saturated fat that you're talking about.

02:04:28.000 So it's not even...

02:04:30.000 Like this life-or-death decision that you make, like if I have a wonderful cut of corn-fed steak, I'm going to die.

02:04:38.000 If I have grass-fed, I'll live forever.

02:04:40.000 These are just choices, and if you can find a great-tasting grass-fed steak, by all means have it.

02:04:46.000 If you can find a relatively inexpensive, you know, line-caught wild salmon, that's probably a better choice for your stated goals than some farm-raised salmon.

02:04:57.000 So, yeah, the farm-raised salmon, it's problematic because of their diet, right?

02:05:01.000 But just back to the grass-fed thing.

02:05:04.000 So when you get to grass-fed whey protein isolate, whey protein isolate is 90% to 95% protein.

02:05:12.000 They took all the fat out of it, so it doesn't matter.

02:05:15.000 All the good fatty acid profile that was in it because it was grass-fed is now gone.

02:05:20.000 So it's like a marketing strategy to call it grass-fed whey protein isolate.

02:05:24.000 So it's not bad, but it's not any better?

02:05:27.000 No, it's definitely not bad.

02:05:30.000 It's not demonstrably better to have grass-fed whey protein isolate versus just regular.

02:05:34.000 What about grass-fed butter?

02:05:37.000 There's fat in that, right?

02:05:38.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:05:39.000 That's all fat.

02:05:40.000 And there's an example of, that's the exact opposite.

02:05:43.000 Now they took all the protein out of it, and now they're just giving you fat.

02:05:45.000 So grass-fed butter is a great choice.

02:05:48.000 And what is the difference in the profile, the fatty profile of grass-fed butter versus...

02:05:53.000 Same as it is with the meat.

02:05:55.000 When is that difference?

02:05:56.000 I can't cite the research and I can't cite the breakdown of the fatty acids.

02:06:01.000 It's just that they're more appropriate for...

02:06:05.000 A cow that was raised on its native diet, glazing grass.

02:06:08.000 Jamie, you pull it up.

02:06:08.000 What is the difference between the fat?

02:06:10.000 Because I've heard it, but I can't cite it when somebody wants to bring it up.

02:06:14.000 I prefer the taste of grass-fed meat because it's a leaner, more dense meat.

02:06:21.000 It's more like a wild game than a ribeye from a cow that's fed corn.

02:06:27.000 But you're saying that health-wise...

02:06:29.000 Grass-fed ribeye is pretty good.

02:06:31.000 Pretty good, yeah.

02:06:32.000 It's more of a fatty cut.

02:06:34.000 But you're saying there's not that much of a difference in terms of the health benefits.

02:06:39.000 If you can get, again, a humanely raised cow that was not given antibiotics or hormones, you're pretty close to where you want to be.

02:06:50.000 And so I'm suggesting that the fatty acid profile isn't going to be...

02:06:55.000 It's hugely different.

02:06:56.000 Isn't the issue with cows that when you give a cow grains, their body isn't designed to process it, so they develop a lot of infections?

02:07:04.000 Correct.

02:07:04.000 And that's why they use the antibiotics.

02:07:06.000 Yeah.

02:07:06.000 So isn't that, I mean, just automatically problematic if you have a grain-fed cow?

02:07:10.000 Not necessarily.

02:07:11.000 So a lot of times you'll have a cow that was raised on grass and then finished with grain.

02:07:16.000 And there's different types of grain.

02:07:18.000 So it's not automatically problematic.

02:07:21.000 It could be.

02:07:22.000 But if you look for the cows that were pastured up until a certain point, and again, they might have been grass-finished.

02:07:30.000 Sometimes they'll say grass-fed, and they won't tell you it was grain-finished.

02:07:35.000 And when they say green finished, how much time do they spend feeding them green?

02:07:39.000 Just a couple weeks.

02:07:39.000 That's it?

02:07:40.000 Yeah.

02:07:40.000 Okay.

02:07:41.000 So they just fatten up for the last couple weeks before the end.

02:07:43.000 Yep.

02:07:44.000 And so they don't have enough time to develop a lot of the massive issues that they might have if they were corn fed their whole life.

02:07:49.000 In theory.

02:07:50.000 In theory.

02:07:51.000 So you'll eat a little bit of steak.

02:07:55.000 Steamed vegetables.

02:07:56.000 That's when I have my big plate of broccoli or...

02:07:59.000 Broccolini or partial spouts or whatever.

02:08:03.000 And what about drinks?

02:08:05.000 What do you drink?

02:08:05.000 Mostly just water?

02:08:07.000 I used to drink wine at meals.

02:08:09.000 I don't drink a lot of water.

02:08:11.000 I'm soothing a throat today with this, but normally I wouldn't drink much water.

02:08:18.000 Much water during the course of the day.

02:08:19.000 I let my thirst mechanism, you know, just sort of tell me what to do.

02:08:23.000 And I don't get thirsty that often.

02:08:24.000 I mean, I used to go on 50-mile bike rides and not get thirsty.

02:08:27.000 Really?

02:08:27.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:08:28.000 Is that just weird?

02:08:29.000 Just you?

02:08:30.000 I know other people like that, yeah.

02:08:31.000 A lot of people are of the belief that you should drink water all the day, so you have to pee all the time because you're flushing your body.

02:08:37.000 I don't buy that at all.

02:08:39.000 No?

02:08:39.000 I think it's unnecessary.

02:08:40.000 It's probably, yeah, it's a...

02:08:41.000 I definitely don't agree with that concept.

02:08:44.000 You might want to do it once in a while just to do your own little cleanse or whatever, but I don't think as a rule of thumb that there's any particular health benefit to that.

02:08:53.000 What about the toxins, man?

02:08:54.000 What about the toxins, man?

02:08:55.000 Dude, fleshing the toxins out, man.

02:08:57.000 I didn't pee clear.

02:08:58.000 I need to drink more. 1.00

02:08:59.000 Yeah, that's bullshit. 0.99

02:09:01.000 I think so, yeah. 1.00

02:09:03.000 I know a lot of people who still do it.

02:09:05.000 I know a lot of people at the gym bring their gallon jug of distilled water in or whatever the hell it is.

02:09:11.000 Well, distilled water is real bad, right?

02:09:12.000 ROS water, yeah.

02:09:14.000 Yeah, because when you drink distilled water, there's no minerals in it.

02:09:17.000 It actually robs your body of minerals because it takes the minerals out, right?

02:09:22.000 So don't drink unless you're thirsty.

02:09:24.000 No, no, no.

02:09:25.000 I mean, that's my rule of thumb, and I don't.

02:09:27.000 So what do I drink with meals?

02:09:28.000 Until recently, I was drinking wine with meals.

02:09:33.000 How come you stopped?

02:09:34.000 So I've written a lot about wines over the years and how the research shows that wine drinkers live longer than teetotalers.

02:09:42.000 Resveratrol.

02:09:42.000 All that stuff.

02:09:43.000 And there's a lot of good, compelling evidence to drink wine.

02:09:46.000 And yet, at the root of the matter, wine is still a source of ethanol.

02:09:51.000 Ethanol is toxic to the body.

02:09:53.000 So you're putting a toxin in your body every time you drink wine.

02:09:56.000 Started to look at that in my own case and realized that I wasn't sleeping as well as I wanted to.

02:10:00.000 And sleep's a big thing for me.

02:10:02.000 But I was a two-glass-a-night wine drinker for 30 years.

02:10:08.000 It wasn't dinner if I didn't have wine.

02:10:11.000 And...

02:10:12.000 So I went on a 30-day, which I do often.

02:10:14.000 I went on a 30-day experiment of one, see what happened.

02:10:17.000 Cut out the wine.

02:10:18.000 Felt great.

02:10:20.000 Slept better.

02:10:21.000 And I was never really...

02:10:22.000 I never woke up hungover.

02:10:23.000 I mean, I've never...

02:10:24.000 My kids have never seen me...

02:10:25.000 My kids are 22 and 25. They've never seen me drunk.

02:10:27.000 My wife has never seen me drunk.

02:10:28.000 It's not like I was abusing anything.

02:10:30.000 But I had this regular pattern of drinking wine.

02:10:32.000 So I went off it, and I realized that I was...

02:10:36.000 Benefiting from it.

02:10:37.000 So for the last year and a half, I really cut back on the wine.

02:10:40.000 I still have a glass or two.

02:10:41.000 What was the benefit that you watched?

02:10:43.000 I didn't wake up at three o'clock in the morning and then not be able to get back to sleep for an hour.

02:10:47.000 That was the big thing that I noticed for myself.

02:10:50.000 I would fall asleep really easily, and then I would wake up two or three in the morning and have a tough time getting back to sleep.

02:10:57.000 And that sort of subsided when I went off the wine.

02:11:00.000 So that's the result of the effect of alcohol.

02:11:03.000 Your body processes the alcohol.

02:11:05.000 The alcohol is a depressant.

02:11:06.000 It knocks you out.

02:11:07.000 Your body processes it.

02:11:09.000 And then once it's done processing it, then your sleep cycle is disturbed, so you wake up.

02:11:12.000 Is that what happens?

02:11:13.000 Chinese medicine says that that's when your liver is working at 3 o'clock in the morning.

02:11:17.000 So maybe that's when the real processing is starting to take place.

02:11:21.000 I'm not a huge adherent of Chinese medicine.

02:11:25.000 I'm not suggesting that it's not an important thing to look at.

02:11:28.000 But in my case...

02:11:29.000 The sleep benefited tremendously.

02:11:31.000 Did you feel any better other than the sleep?

02:11:33.000 Yeah, I mean, I think so.

02:11:34.000 I mean, I didn't really notice.

02:11:35.000 Like I say, I never woke up hungover.

02:11:36.000 I always felt refreshed waking up.

02:11:39.000 But I didn't like not getting that sleep and having to...

02:11:46.000 I'm managing stress and I have a fair amount of stress.

02:11:48.000 Just business stuff in my life. 0.99

02:11:50.000 When you can't sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning, that's when all the business shit starts to circulate in the brain. 0.98

02:11:56.000 How's this going to happen? 0.98

02:11:57.000 How are we going to do that?

02:11:59.000 I didn't like that part of it.

02:12:02.000 So a year and a half, I went without drinking wine, and I replaced it with...

02:12:06.000 I used to be a prodigious beer drinker before I gave up the grains.

02:12:13.000 And I found a couple of non-alcoholic beers that I like.

02:12:20.000 And so, again, for me, it was about the habit, the ritual of dinner.

02:12:24.000 So I couldn't just drink water.

02:12:26.000 I hate drinking water with dinner.

02:12:28.000 So...

02:12:28.000 I wanted to find something to replace the ritual part of the wine, and I found these non-alcoholic beers I drink.

02:12:34.000 So I have one with dinner at night, maybe one and a half.

02:12:38.000 Are these non-grain made?

02:12:40.000 No, they're made with grains, but they don't affect me to any extent.

02:12:46.000 And so that's what I've been doing for the last year and a half.

02:12:49.000 And then recently, I came across a guy who was looking at paleo wines.

02:12:55.000 And I said, I'm going, dude, have you coined a new phrase?

02:12:59.000 This is a marketing ploy?

02:13:00.000 No, there's these wines.

02:13:01.000 There are 300 wineries in the world among the tens of thousands. 0.98

02:13:08.000 That don't use additives or sulfites or colorants or formaldehyde or any of the shit that we put in wine in this country. 0.99

02:13:17.000 So if you look at how wines are made in the US, some of the more desirable wines from a nose perspective have all kinds of crap in them. 0.93

02:13:28.000 And there's like 87 approved additives that the government allows US winemakers to put in their wines. 0.98

02:13:33.000 And that's the shit that causes you to get to hangover and feel bad from drinking the wine, particularly the red wines, and wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to sleep. 0.94

02:13:45.000 So this guy approaches me one day. 0.99

02:13:48.000 Actually, I met him at a conference.

02:13:51.000 And he started to tell me a story.

02:13:53.000 I'm not buying it.

02:13:55.000 You know, you've got these wines that won't cause you to fall asleep or won't cause you to wake up in the middle of the night.

02:14:01.000 He goes, I was like you, Mark.

02:14:03.000 I gave up drinking wine.

02:14:04.000 And I love wines, but I gave them up because I didn't like what it was doing to me.

02:14:07.000 And I found these new wines.

02:14:10.000 So he sources wines from around the world.

02:14:13.000 That are made in wineries that don't use any of these additives.

02:14:16.000 And he gave me a case of them to try different brands and different things.

02:14:21.000 And none of them from the US. They're all from Europe or South America or whatever.

02:14:24.000 And these are wineries that have been around for 300 years. 0.99

02:14:27.000 They just never bought into the concept of adding shit to wines. 0.99

02:14:31.000 Right. 0.99

02:14:32.000 And, you know, I've realized some of these wines I can drink and enjoy and feel a little bit of taking the edge off and then go to bed and have no ill effects at all.

02:14:42.000 So I'm sort of opening my mind to the fact that there's some paleo-type wines out there that don't have the additives in them that, consumed in moderation, are probably enjoyable and potentially healthful.

02:14:58.000 That term paleo seems to be a loaded term because people connect it with the idea of the Paleolithic era and what people ate at that time, but we're not talking about that when you're talking about paleo wines.

02:15:10.000 I know, yeah.

02:15:10.000 You know what I mean?

02:15:11.000 It's a weird term.

02:15:14.000 Yeah, and he doesn't really use the term.

02:15:16.000 He uses...

02:15:17.000 Natural?

02:15:17.000 Yeah.

02:15:19.000 But the market to which he was catering at the time...

02:15:23.000 The paleo community.

02:15:25.000 It fits the paleo community, yeah.

02:15:26.000 Yeah, it's almost like they need a better word.

02:15:41.000 No, no, no.

02:15:42.000 I mean, that's one of the great misnomers the general public has about the paleo diet, is that If a caveman didn't eat it, then we shouldn't eat it.

02:15:49.000 Well, none of this stuff existed in caveman's time.

02:15:51.000 Nothing that we eat, even the stuff we get out of the ground or off the trees, didn't exist then.

02:15:56.000 It's all been manipulated by farming and whether it was inserting genes.

02:16:02.000 It wasn't inserting genes, but we still did genetic manipulation of foods to get them sweeter and more protein or whatever.

02:16:09.000 Maybe it's a loaded term.

02:16:10.000 Maybe we need a new term.

02:16:11.000 Something like primal, maybe?

02:16:13.000 Right.

02:16:14.000 Well, Primal Blueprint.

02:16:15.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:16:16.000 Hey! 0.99

02:16:16.000 That's a good one. 0.99

02:16:17.000 Maybe you should run with that.

02:16:18.000 I'll try it.

02:16:19.000 I'll see.

02:16:19.000 Primal's probably better than Paleo, right?

02:16:21.000 I thought from the beginning.

02:16:22.000 I started my project writing the blog in 2006, and I knew early on I wanted a brand that was sort of unique and separate from Paleo.

02:16:32.000 I thought Paleo had too much baggage from Caveman on it.

02:16:36.000 Yeah.

02:16:36.000 And Primal sort of has a primary, you know, first importance kind of thing as well as...

02:16:41.000 As well as going back to primal times and primal urge or whatever.

02:16:45.000 So hence the term primal blueprint and my primal fuel and my food products, primal kitchen.

02:16:52.000 They're all kind of based around that.

02:16:53.000 So these additives that they're putting in wine, it's just from an economic standpoint?

02:16:57.000 It allows them to process the wine?

02:16:58.000 No, no, no.

02:16:58.000 It's from a consumer demand point of view.

02:17:01.000 So, you know, when you get some of these...

02:17:05.000 I don't want to name names, but some of my favorite, really expensive California wines that I used to love because of the way they tasted.

02:17:12.000 They were thick and rich looking and, you know, oaky and all this.

02:17:17.000 It's just all additives, all crap they're putting in there because that's what the consumer thinks is going to make for a sophisticated wine.

02:17:26.000 Wow. 1.00

02:17:27.000 And all that is chemical additives that fuck with your body. 0.99

02:17:31.000 Yeah. 0.93

02:17:32.000 Not all.

02:17:32.000 I mean, enough that they all do.

02:17:35.000 Wow, that's bizarre.

02:17:36.000 I never would have thought that.

02:17:38.000 When I think of wine, I thought wine is just fermented grapes, and they go through a process, and they store it.

02:17:44.000 Yeah.

02:17:44.000 My friend Maynard makes wine.

02:17:46.000 I need to contact him.

02:17:48.000 You know the band Tool?

02:17:49.000 Yeah.

02:17:50.000 Maynard, the lead singer of Tool, he has an awesome wine company, Caduceus Wine.

02:17:55.000 Do they make their own wine, or do they sub it out to somebody else?

02:17:57.000 He makes his own wine.

02:17:57.000 He grows his own wine.

02:17:58.000 He's fucking crazy, though. 1.00

02:18:00.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:18:00.000 I mean, I know a lot of people that grow grapes in Malibu, but none of them make their own wine. 1.00

02:18:04.000 They truck it out to some distillery. 0.99

02:18:07.000 And when they truck it out, this guy takes it and throws a bunch of shit. 1.00

02:18:10.000 Well, whatever. 0.99

02:18:11.000 The grower of the grapes who's got his own label will say, I want it to have these properties.

02:18:16.000 It's got to be this color and this thick.

02:18:19.000 And sometimes if the grapes don't...

02:18:24.000 I mean, a lot of the stuff comes from the—a lot of the tannins in wine come from the grape skin.

02:18:30.000 And to get the deep, deep, deep, deep, rich color, you have to mash the grapes up and the skin up even more and more and more.

02:18:37.000 So more of that tannin.

02:18:38.000 To get the red— The deep red colors in the wine, they have to provide more of the skin, and that's what's causing a lot of the tannin.

02:18:45.000 So for some people who have issues that you hear about the histamines in wine, again, that's the marketplace demanding a deep red wine.

02:18:54.000 So it's the color issue.

02:18:55.000 It's part of a color.

02:18:56.000 It could be color, could be, again, some of the, you know, adding sugar to the wines.

02:19:01.000 A lot of the U.S. wines have a lot of sugar in them, like a fairly high sugar content.

02:19:05.000 The guy I'm talking about here who led me down this road and sort of opened my eyes to this, he's been in ketosis for two years, and he couldn't drink wine because the sugar would take him out of ketosis.

02:19:19.000 The sugar and wine.

02:19:20.000 So that's sort of one of the reasons he got started on it.

02:19:22.000 He was a lifetime wine drinker, grew up in wine country up in Sonoma, and had dealt in the business and sort of left it because he got disenchanted and then came back when he discovered that there are these wines that have no sugar, that have no, you know, minimal sulfites.

02:19:37.000 I mean, all natural fruits and vegetables have some amount of sulfites, but not added, no added sulfites.

02:19:46.000 And none of these 80 or so approved added ingredients that can affect the color and the smell and the thickness.

02:19:54.000 That is really interesting.

02:19:56.000 That's something I never even considered.

02:19:57.000 I never even thought there was additives in wine.

02:20:00.000 I just thought it was just grapes.

02:20:01.000 I thought it was pretty simple.

02:20:03.000 Is there American companies that do this?

02:20:05.000 Is there anything local?

02:20:06.000 I don't know.

02:20:06.000 The things that he's given me are...

02:20:12.000 All from other countries. 1.00

02:20:14.000 That sounds so counterintuitive that we grow so much wine in California, but to get wine without any shit in it, you'd have to get it from Europe because we're so concentrated right now, at least this part of the country is, on natural foods and grass-fed beef and organic vegetables.

02:20:34.000 The fact that we would have wines that almost primarily... 0.96

02:20:38.000 That's nuts.

02:20:39.000 Oh, it is.

02:20:40.000 And it may be that he hasn't sent me any that are from the U.S., but most of these are from other...

02:20:46.000 Where would you order something like that?

02:20:48.000 I want to try that now because I like wine.

02:20:50.000 I love red wine.

02:20:51.000 Dry Wine Farms is the name of the company.

02:20:54.000 That's dry wine.

02:20:55.000 Dry Wine Farms.

02:20:56.000 All right.

02:20:57.000 Dry.

02:20:58.000 Yeah.

02:21:00.000 I always think of dry as like...

02:21:02.000 That's like the kind of white wine that people like.

02:21:05.000 Dry white wine, right?

02:21:07.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:21:08.000 Hmm.

02:21:09.000 I just never would have believed that it was the additives that are causing all those issues.

02:21:13.000 Well, so now we're back to that initial discussion we had about it's what you don't eat that really affects you more than what you do eat.

02:21:20.000 Yeah.

02:21:24.000 You're eating appropriately grown cuts of meat and organic vegetables and you're cutting out the industrial seed oils, cutting out the sugar, cutting out the processed grains and some of the other grains.

02:21:37.000 And in their place, you're cutting out, in this case, crappy wine and substituting...

02:21:45.000 Fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds.

02:21:48.000 And now we have, you know, again, if we want to enjoy life, and that's one of the things that we might consider an enjoyable part of life is partaking of a glass of red or white wine with dinner.

02:22:00.000 Now it's kind of back on the menu for some people.

02:22:02.000 That's interesting.

02:22:03.000 That's really interesting.

02:22:05.000 But it's not necessarily on the menu for you.

02:22:08.000 No, so, and having said that, I'm not finding myself back in that situation where I'm drinking wine with dinner again, because I still recognize for myself that it's the ethanol.

02:22:25.000 Intuitively, I don't like putting that amount of ethanol in my body on a regular basis.

02:22:29.000 So once in a while, as a hormetic insult, if you will, it's fine.

02:22:35.000 The body will adapt to it and use it to its benefit, but on a regular basis, probably.

02:22:40.000 So just the sheer alcohol content of wine was causing an issue.

02:22:44.000 It wasn't just the additives.

02:22:47.000 No, so the additives were probably causing the issue because with these wines, I wasn't waking up in the middle of the night.

02:22:55.000 So I felt as if I hadn't had the wine.

02:22:57.000 So what's the ethanol?

02:22:59.000 Ethanol, that's the alcohol.

02:23:00.000 That's the form of alcohol in the wines.

02:23:03.000 Right, but it's not the additives.

02:23:04.000 No, no, no.

02:23:05.000 That's what you're trying to get at, is ethanol is the alcohol in the wine.

02:23:09.000 That's what gives you lip.

02:23:10.000 Right, that's not what's being added.

02:23:12.000 But you had decided that it wasn't the ethanol that was giving you the issues.

02:23:17.000 No, it wasn't the ethanol, but I still didn't like the idea.

02:23:18.000 It's not about the issues as much as it's just...

02:23:22.000 It's like I can consume a fair amount of sugar over the course of a day and not gain weight and not have it affect my blood sugar.

02:23:31.000 I just choose not to because I know it's bad for me.

02:23:33.000 Right.

02:23:33.000 So even like a glass of wine...

02:23:37.000 Once in a while is fine.

02:23:38.000 Yeah, once in a while is fine.

02:23:38.000 But hasn't it shown that there's some longevity benefits to it?

02:23:43.000 Yeah, so...

02:23:44.000 Do you think that's the resveratrol, which is an antioxidant?

02:23:47.000 No, I don't.

02:23:47.000 I think...

02:23:47.000 I could be wrong, but my interpretation of some of these studies is that you take...

02:23:53.000 We're good to go.

02:24:16.000 Probably because their blood was thinned from the wine or something.

02:24:20.000 It's not that it's bestowing longevity on these people. 0.99

02:24:24.000 It's that they're not dying at the same rate from their shitty diet. 0.90

02:24:28.000 Because my guess is it's probably some artificial blood thinning that's happening or something like that. 0.98

02:24:33.000 Huh.

02:24:34.000 But why is it sort of conventional wisdom that it's resveratrol?

02:24:38.000 Well, resveratrol is one of the components of wine.

02:24:41.000 But you would have to drink...

02:24:44.000 You know, 750 glasses of wine to get the amount of resveratrol that you can get in a resveratrol capsule.

02:24:50.000 There's not a lot of resveratrol in wine.

02:24:53.000 There is some, and it's a well-studied, you know, component of wine.

02:25:00.000 In fact, there have been companies founded on just providing resveratrol as an anti-aging nutrient.

02:25:08.000 But there's not a lot of resveratrol in wine, and I don't think any of these studies have ever pointed to the fact that it's the resveratrol in the wine that you're drinking that's conferring longevity on this group versus that group.

02:25:19.000 Do you think there's any benefit in consuming exogenous ketones?

02:25:24.000 Uh...

02:25:25.000 No, not on balance.

02:25:26.000 I think if you're an athlete and you're looking to maximize performance, there might be places in which you could consume exogenous ketones.

02:25:37.000 First of all, if you're not keto adapted, it's a joke.

02:25:41.000 There's no reason to take exogenous ketones.

02:25:43.000 If you're fat adapted and keto adapted...

02:25:46.000 There may be a reason to take exogenous ketones in an event instead of sugar.

02:25:52.000 Like, say, if you're going to run, do something, some sort of endurance event?

02:25:59.000 To my knowledge, there aren't many great tasting ketone salts.

02:26:03.000 So now you've got a palatability issue as well with a lot of these things.

02:26:07.000 Right.

02:26:08.000 Have you tried them?

02:26:08.000 No, I haven't.

02:26:09.000 But I've been fascinated by ketogenic diets over the last couple of months.

02:26:13.000 I've been really considering trying to...

02:26:15.000 I mean, there's some potentially good science there, but I can't give you a practical application right now where it would...

02:26:23.000 Where it would work, other than in some elite event where somebody was, you know, racing all out for hours and was completely keto-adapted prior to the event and, you know, was so good at using ketones in the brain that they could hold off bunking for another hour or two.

02:26:44.000 So they would take some sort of a ketogenic supplement in their water or something along those lines?

02:26:53.000 Would probably be the easiest way to do it.

02:26:54.000 So if you were going to recommend to someone to try to make your body more fat-adaptive, what would be the first step?

02:27:01.000 Just to radically cut back on sugar?

02:27:03.000 Should you do it slowly?

02:27:04.000 Should you taper off?

02:27:05.000 Or should you just give them up?

02:27:08.000 Either way, I mean, it's easier, I think, if you just give it up, you just go all in.

02:27:13.000 If somebody's been depending on sugar your whole life and you're doing 400, 500, 600 grams a day of carbohydrate, And then, you know, going down to 100 or 120 is going to be painful for the first couple of weeks.

02:27:28.000 And when I say painful, we have this thing called the low-carb flu.

02:27:30.000 So you go from your body, your brain, expecting to have you refuel every meal for, you know, every couple of hours every day with carbohydrate to then...

02:27:42.000 We're reducing it down to 120, 150 grams a day.

02:27:45.000 The brain starts to go, what's going on here?

02:27:48.000 I mean, the muscles haven't yet built the metabolic machinery to burn fat.

02:27:52.000 They're working on it, and they're upregulating.

02:27:54.000 The genes are turning on to create the enzymes, but they're not there yet.

02:27:58.000 It takes about 21 days to do this.

02:28:00.000 So in the process, the body's expecting sugar.

02:28:04.000 And if you're trying to work out at the same time, you're going to be screwed because now you have your sugar depleted and you haven't learned how to burn fat yet.

02:28:11.000 And the brain is depleted.

02:28:12.000 And so the brain goes, I'm foggy.

02:28:14.000 I can't think.

02:28:15.000 I've got a headache.

02:28:16.000 I'm dizzy. 0.99

02:28:16.000 This sucks. 0.99

02:28:17.000 I'm going to eat a bagel. 0.98

02:28:18.000 That's what happened to me when I did the Atkins diet for a while, many, many years ago.

02:28:23.000 A lot of people get derailed the first or second week.

02:28:25.000 Yeah.

02:28:26.000 So you have to not train during that time.

02:28:28.000 Not train?

02:28:29.000 Cut it way back.

02:28:31.000 Don't do any glycolytic training.

02:28:32.000 So just ride the bike easy, go for a hike, or do some stuff like that.

02:28:36.000 But you can't really train hard when you're doing that.

02:28:38.000 And how long does it take to adapt?

02:28:40.000 So one or two weeks, people get through that fog, and then they'll be good.

02:28:47.000 I have a book called The 21 Day Total Body Transformation, and the 21 days is about how long it takes To get 80% of the benefits of becoming a fat-burning beast, is what we call it.

02:28:56.000 A fat-burning beast.

02:28:57.000 I like that.

02:29:00.000 So you've got to commit to it, and you've got to assume there's going to be an adjustment period.

02:29:06.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:29:07.000 And in that adjustment period, it's not going to be...

02:29:09.000 I mean, for some people, it's minimal.

02:29:11.000 They just feel a little bit low energy or whatever.

02:29:14.000 Other people get headaches and woozy because that's the brain, again, recognizing that there's no glucose, and it hasn't yet built the metabolic machinery to burn ketones, even though the body may be producing ketones.

02:29:26.000 And when the body produces ketones...

02:29:33.000 We're good to go.

02:29:42.000 We'll still produce ketones if you skip two meals.

02:29:44.000 You know, you wake up in the morning, you're basically fasted if you're a sugar burner, and you wake up, and if you don't eat breakfast, you might smell ketones on that person's breath, or they might, you know, pee on a strip and it shows a certain amount of ketones in the urine because the body's just getting rid of the ketones because it can't burn them.

02:30:02.000 It doesn't have to burn them yet.

02:30:03.000 So consuming exogenous ketones doesn't accentuate a ketogenic diet or doesn't accelerate it?

02:30:10.000 I don't know enough about the clinical trials that are going on right now, but my assumption would be that if you take exogenous ketones and you're not fat-adapted and keto-adapted, it's not going to necessarily prompt you to become that unless you've...

02:30:26.000 Okay, so there's no shortcuts to that transitionary period between a glucose-based diet and a fat-based diet.

02:30:35.000 There's just going to have to be a transitionary period.

02:30:37.000 I think so, because like I say, I think if you skip a meal, you're producing ketones.

02:30:41.000 Right.

02:30:42.000 And you're pissing them out, so adding more ketones is just going to piss out more ketones.

02:30:46.000 By the way, you're going to be a superstar when you piss on the strip, because you've got your ketones plus the exogenous ketones.

02:30:52.000 Right.

02:30:52.000 But this all starts in great.

02:30:54.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:30:54.000 But I feel like shit. 0.99

02:30:57.000 But the strip says I'm doing great. 1.00

02:30:59.000 Right.

02:30:59.000 Yeah.

02:31:00.000 Okay, so the strip's not nearly as important as the actual physical performance and the way you feel.

02:31:04.000 So no matter what, you're going to have to go through a trip.

02:31:06.000 So if you, like, say, look, just me, a guy like me, if I had a shitty diet, I'm eating spaghetti all day, you would recommend that for a couple of weeks, I just take it real light and make this adjustment.

02:31:19.000 Make a commitment to making the adjustment in the diet.

02:31:22.000 Doing a fat-based diet with very low sugar, very low carbohydrates, cut out the grains entirely.

02:31:27.000 You get all your carbohydrates from celery and lettuce and vegetables and some fruits and just make a commitment to it.

02:31:34.000 Yeah.

02:31:35.000 And part of that commitment is I'm not going to train like a banshee for the first two weeks.

02:31:40.000 I'll train, but I'll do easy stuff.

02:31:43.000 The first chapter in our book, which should be about diet, It's about training and about low-level training.

02:31:50.000 And which book?

02:31:51.000 The Primal Endurance book that just came out a few weeks ago.

02:31:56.000 The first chapter should be about diet because that's clearly one of the most important parts.

02:31:59.000 But we talk about training first because we figured enough endurance athletes would read the book that if they read the diet part first, they would continue training at the high level and embrace the diet and then fall apart.

02:32:11.000 So we've got to get the training dialed in first for those people and say, here's why you have to cut back.

02:32:17.000 Here's why you can't exceed a heart rate of 180 minus your age for the first couple of weeks training when you're doing long-distance stuff.

02:32:25.000 And at that rate, you'll be burning mostly fat.

02:32:28.000 So you'll be accentuating what's going on on the dietary side, which is restricting carbohydrates, and providing more fat, more healthy fats for your body, and creating more mitochondrial biogenesis and upregulating those mitochondria to become efficient at burning fat.

02:32:43.000 How long does it take before your body reaches the optimum level of mitochondria?

02:32:47.000 I mean, we see athletes who get 80% of their benefit the first three weeks and then another 10% over the next six months.

02:32:59.000 And then the final benefits kick in the last six months because sometimes your top-end power diminishes as you become fat-adapted.

02:33:09.000 You've got to get that top-end power back, but that's what we build in the gym.

02:33:14.000 So it's a longer process.

02:33:16.000 So it's like 80%, and then six weeks later, another 10%, and then six months later, another 10%.

02:33:23.000 So in the course of a full year, you're still slowly adapting.

02:33:28.000 Yeah.

02:33:29.000 I think within a year, maybe a little bit more than a year, if you do everything right, you can be...

02:33:41.000 We're good to go.

02:33:51.000 Community where marriages fall apart because the guy would rather go for a 100-mile ride on Sunday morning than stay in bed and cuddle with the wife.

02:34:00.000 That's why marriages fall apart? 1.00

02:34:01.000 That's one of the reasons.

02:34:02.000 I thought it was money.

02:34:05.000 Well, it is money.

02:34:06.000 The $8,000 bike to go on the ride.

02:34:10.000 So...

02:34:12.000 Where are we going with that?

02:34:14.000 Longevity.

02:34:15.000 Yeah.

02:34:15.000 Marriage is fall apart.

02:34:17.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:34:17.000 So the longevity part, one of the things that happens is you train less.

02:34:22.000 There's less total training time to get the results that you wanted because you're doing it methodically and you're not just putting it all out there every day and crossing your fingers and saying, well, I'm training as much as this guy, so I better be as fast or faster than he is.

02:34:36.000 Right.

02:34:36.000 You're doing an approach that's very...

02:34:39.000 It's scripted and detailed and methodical on one end of the spectrum.

02:34:44.000 On the other end, it's also sporadic and fractal.

02:34:47.000 It's like, I wake up today and I don't feel like doing what I had in my plan.

02:34:50.000 Take the day off. 0.99

02:34:52.000 Because if today's the day you're going to go hard and you feel like shit, do not go hard. 0.99

02:34:56.000 There's no magic. 0.99

02:34:57.000 There's no benefit.

02:34:58.000 There's no points that you gain from doing it.

02:35:02.000 In fact, it'll take you down the toilet.

02:35:04.000 So...

02:35:05.000 You learn to become intuitive about your training, and periodicity is one of the words we talk about, where you periodize.

02:35:12.000 There's times when you're going very...

02:35:16.000 Make your longer workouts longer and slower, and your hard workouts shorter and harder.

02:35:22.000 And in the middle of these, be intuitive about how you feel.

02:35:27.000 How much sleep did you get?

02:35:29.000 Are you fueled appropriately for today's event?

02:35:32.000 Do you have a... 0.99

02:35:34.000 Is there a purpose to today's workout other than just go accumulate miles because I'll feel like shit. 0.99

02:35:39.000 I'll feel like a slob if I don't. 0.72

02:35:42.000 And if you could get around all that, you can start to see some amazing benefits with less pain and suffering and sacrifice, less being beat up, less burnout, less time.

02:35:55.000 And presumably, if you do it right, better results anyway than the old paradigm.

02:35:59.000 So that's going to cause a real dilemma with people that are obsessed with the work rate, obsessed with just doing more than anybody else, obsessed with proving to themselves that they push themselves, they put in all those hours, and looking at it, they look at their,

02:36:14.000 you know, a lot of people have apps on their phone that measure how many...

02:36:17.000 I know. 1.00

02:36:18.000 Oh, shit. 1.00

02:36:18.000 It's 9 o'clock at night. 1.00

02:36:20.000 We just finished dinner.

02:36:20.000 Honey, I only have 16,000 steps.

02:36:23.000 I'm going to walk back to the hotel or the house.

02:36:25.000 Right, right, right.

02:36:25.000 Because I've got to get to 20. It's bullshit.

02:36:28.000 That stuff is so ridiculous. 1.00

02:36:29.000 And yet, I was there. 0.93

02:36:31.000 I was one of those people who lived my life based on the amount of miles I accumulated and measured my self-worth on whether or not I could hang with everybody I ever raced with in a workout.

02:36:44.000 I never let anybody...

02:36:46.000 Half-wheel me on a bike ride in any workout.

02:36:50.000 And it was fun, I guess, and it was part of my lifestyle, but you've got to go back to the essence of why are you doing this?

02:36:59.000 If you're doing it just to hang out, people used to say, hey, Mark, you're so disciplined, man.

02:37:03.000 You're out there and you're riding 60 miles, 100 miles some days.

02:37:06.000 You're running 10. You are so disciplined.

02:37:08.000 And the joke is, I'm thinking to myself, are you fucking kidding me? 0.98

02:37:11.000 I'm not disciplined. 0.98

02:37:13.000 Discipline is going to work.

02:37:15.000 And, you know, putting in a full productive eight hours and then finding a little bit of time to work out or maybe hang out with a family.

02:37:21.000 It was so easy for me to get on the bike and go put some miles in or go for a run and shrug every other duty off.

02:37:29.000 You know, and that's one of the dangers of being an endurance athlete.

02:37:32.000 It's addictive.

02:37:33.000 It's a very addictive pursuit.

02:37:36.000 You are creating, especially if you're beating yourself up every day, you're creating endorphins, endogenous morphine-like substances that That sit on those same receptor sites, the pain-killing sites and the pleasure-giving sites, that you would inject heroin to achieve.

02:37:51.000 Now you're just doing it naturally.

02:37:53.000 And you're doing it every single day.

02:37:54.000 And you crave it every day. 1.00

02:37:55.000 And if you take five days off, you feel like shit. 1.00

02:37:57.000 You go through withdrawal. 0.99

02:37:59.000 So there's that part of it as well that we have to look at.

02:38:01.000 Why do people do this?

02:38:02.000 Yeah, the obsessive aspect of it.

02:38:04.000 The obsessive aspect of it and the addictive aspect of it.

02:38:08.000 That's interesting, man.

02:38:10.000 Well, listen, man, this has been probably one of the most informative and interesting podcasts I've ever done.

02:38:15.000 I really, really appreciate you taking your time and coming here and sharing all this information. 0.85

02:38:18.000 I'm going to have to listen to this fucking thing three or four times to get all of it and your book.

02:38:24.000 So please tell us the book again, the name, and how we get it. 0.93

02:38:26.000 Is it Amazon?

02:38:27.000 Yeah, it's on Amazon.

02:38:28.000 It's Primal Endurance.

02:38:29.000 It's on Amazon.

02:38:30.000 My website is MarksDailyApple.com.

02:38:33.000 So a lot of the stuff we talk about here has been broken down into blogs.

02:38:36.000 It's 4,000 posts over the last 10 years.

02:38:39.000 Yeah, and encourage anybody to give it a go.

02:38:42.000 Well, I'm giving it a go, man.

02:38:44.000 You've really convinced me.

02:38:45.000 I'm sold.

02:38:46.000 I'm going to radically reduce sugar.

02:38:48.000 I'm going to cut out all my grains, and I'll keep everybody posted.

02:38:51.000 Cool.

02:38:51.000 I'll hold you to it, man.

02:38:52.000 Please do.

02:38:53.000 I really, really appreciate it.

02:38:54.000 Thank you very much, Mark.

02:38:55.000 All right, folks.

02:38:56.000 We'll be back tomorrow with Hannibal Buress.

02:38:58.000 See you then.

02:38:59.000 Bye-bye.

The Joe Rogan Experience - January 26, 2016

Joe Rogan Experience #752 - Mark Sisson

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