The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #835 - Louis Theroux

00:00:00.000 Yeah, we feel professional with headsets on.

00:00:03.000 And we're live.

00:00:05.000 Welcome back, Louie.

00:00:06.000 Oh, yeah, thanks.

00:00:07.000 Nice to be back.

00:00:09.000 I was saying before the podcast started that you sent me down a Scientology rabbit hole last night, my friend.

00:00:15.000 I've been down those before, but last night, knowing that you were going to be on and looking forward to it eagerly, I watched a lot of stuff.

00:00:25.000 And, you know, I spent three years down that rabbit hole, and it's a weird one.

00:00:32.000 Were you on the internet?

00:00:33.000 Were you just clicking around?

00:00:34.000 Yeah, just...

00:00:35.000 There's a lot on YouTube, but there's various very, very well-resourced websites.

00:00:40.000 There's one called Clambake.

00:00:42.000 I've been to that one, yeah.

00:00:43.000 And then there's all the Tony Ortega stuff.

00:00:46.000 I mean, there's just whole worlds.

00:00:48.000 And actually, I mean, I know there's a lot to talk about, but...

00:00:51.000 Perhaps the biggest obstacle to making a documentary about Scientology is the overabundance of material.

00:00:59.000 You know, because there's just so many ways to come in on it, and you can just chase intriguing leads, and then months go by, and you're no nearer to filming anything.

00:01:08.000 I had a lot of thoughts on this, and one of the thoughts when I was really trying to unpack it all is that I feel like one of the reasons why a lot of these people defend Scientology...

00:01:19.000 I think there's several reasons.

00:01:20.000 One, because it's their team.

00:01:22.000 And once you become a part of a team, it becomes something that you identify with, it becomes very important to you, and then you want to defend that.

00:01:30.000 So I think there's that.

00:01:31.000 But also, I think some people take some benefit in what L. Ron Hubbard created.

00:01:40.000 Because, have you read Going Clear?

00:01:43.000 Yes.

00:01:43.000 When I read Going Clear, I watched the documentary and then I read the book.

00:01:46.000 And one of the things that was more fascinating about the book was the fact that he was essentially trying to diagnose and treat himself.

00:01:54.000 And he was essentially a really nutty guy.

00:01:57.000 He was very damaged.

00:01:59.000 Yeah.

00:02:00.000 He had a lot going on.

00:02:02.000 And...

00:02:04.000 He was a guy who was trying to sort of sort it out himself and in the process brought a lot of people in and then created this thing.

00:02:13.000 And some people, they get some benefit from this thing.

00:02:16.000 Because I was watching some of these people that are upset with you, like that woman. 0.67

00:02:20.000 There's a trailer where this woman was upset at you because you were in... 1.00

00:02:24.000 I haven't seen the documentary yet.

00:02:25.000 It comes out in America in January.

00:02:28.000 But...

00:02:29.000 You were on a road that you had a permit for, and she was telling you you were on private land.

00:02:34.000 That's right.

00:02:34.000 I'm looking at this woman, I'm like, this seems like a reasonable, intelligent, assertive, confident woman that would probably, if she didn't get into Scientology, she would have been successful in the corporate world, right?

00:02:46.000 I'm sure.

00:02:47.000 But here she is.

00:02:49.000 Her corporation is written by a nutty science fiction writer who wrote more fiction than any human that's ever walked the face of the planet. 1.00

00:02:59.000 He made up more shit. 0.99

00:03:01.000 He wrote down more things that never happened than anyone who's ever lived. 1.00

00:03:06.000 And they don't have a problem with that.

00:03:08.000 I mean, you've said about 10 different things that I could break down and analyze.

00:03:14.000 I mean, I'm basically on the same page as you.

00:03:15.000 I think the first thing to acknowledge about Scientology is that it's a religion and that all religions have a very high portion of, you know, I'm trying to put it politely, but just bogus, fallacious, clearly nonsensical material,

00:03:31.000 right?

00:03:31.000 And Scientology It's the same as all of those.

00:03:35.000 I think there's a lot of people who've derived a lot of benefit from Scientology.

00:03:39.000 I think there's people whose lives have been saved by it.

00:03:42.000 Kirsty Alley will say at any opportunity that it was Scientology that got her off drugs.

00:03:48.000 But I think you have to sort of take the whole package.

00:03:51.000 And as far as Hubbard goes, he was an only child.

00:03:55.000 He was a fantasist, a lonely guy who was also a narcissist.

00:04:00.000 And I think as a writer, I mean, one of the intriguing things about Scientology is created by a sci-fi writer, right?

00:04:06.000 Mm-hmm.

00:04:06.000 Most other religions are created by desert mystics or warriors or introspective people, but a modern-day sci-fi writer who's writing things about aliens taking over foreign galaxies, that accounts for a lot of its very bizarre inflection.

00:04:24.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:04:25.000 Yeah.

00:04:25.000 Well, not only that, I don't think he wrote a second draft ever.

00:04:28.000 No.

00:04:28.000 I don't know.

00:04:46.000 But the guy, he lied about so many things.

00:04:50.000 He was also abusive to his wife, wives, I think, plural.

00:04:55.000 So physically, he was abusive to them.

00:04:59.000 He was very, very troubled and suicidal.

00:05:02.000 One of the most intriguing things in Going Clear is reading this list of I think they call them affirmations, which when he was in, after the Second World War, he was wracked with self-doubt.

00:05:12.000 He thought he was a failure.

00:05:13.000 He was embarrassed about his sexual urges, his compulsive masturbation, and so on and so forth. 0.98

00:05:19.000 And he wrote down a list of things. 0.84

00:05:21.000 Do you remember this section of it where it says, You do not feel compelled to masturbate 24 times a day.

00:05:28.000 It's not literally. 0.82

00:05:29.000 You were not a disgrace to the military.

00:05:32.000 You acquitted your service in the Navy very creditably.

00:05:36.000 It was all these sort of lies he was telling himself to reassure himself that he was actually to feel okay about himself.

00:05:43.000 It's a very humanizing document because you just see all his neurotic inclinations laid bare.

00:05:50.000 That then subsequently informed his lifelong attempt to, as you say, sort of therapeutically heal himself.

00:05:57.000 And I think there's other people that identify with those.

00:06:01.000 Self sort of damaged thoughts, these thoughts where they don't like their past, they don't like who they are, they don't like the pattern that they're on, and they seek to try to change that and improve upon their position, improve upon their understanding and their acceptance of themselves.

00:06:17.000 And I think that's where Scientology does benefit a lot of people.

00:06:21.000 And so it is tricky.

00:06:22.000 Like many things in this life, it's not that black and white.

00:06:25.000 I mean, is it black and white that it's a cult and that there's a lot of damaging aspects of that?

00:06:30.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:06:31.000 It's pretty clear.

00:06:32.000 When you see the people that have tried to leave it and tell the truth about their experiences in it and how they've been harassed and hounded, yeah, that's all pretty black and white.

00:06:42.000 But I think we can, in some ways, we can sympathize with some of the people that are in it Oh, yeah.

00:06:51.000 I mean, but the other thing to say is, because you started by asking, what was it that made some people defend Scientology, and is it loyalty to their team?

00:07:00.000 But I also think that on the outer periphery, there are concentric rings of commitment to Scientology, and in the inner circle, it is extremely demanding, and I would argue abusive, and And cult-like.

00:07:17.000 On the outer circles, as you get further from the center, I think it can be relatively benign.

00:07:23.000 And especially if you're a VIP or a celebrity in which you're exposed only to the best sorts of treatment.

00:07:29.000 You're given kind of platinum card treatment.

00:07:31.000 You go to the celebrity center.

00:07:33.000 They roll out the red carpet for you.

00:07:35.000 And I think those people feel immensely indebted to Scientology.

00:07:39.000 I think that explains a lot about Tom Cruise.

00:07:41.000 Mm-hmm.

00:07:42.000 That he's only ever been treated like a prince when he's been in Scientology.

00:07:46.000 So he feels so grateful for everything that they've done for him.

00:07:51.000 Yeah, I think his experience, when he talks about them, if he's being honest, I mean, if everyone had that experience, Scientology would be amazing.

00:08:01.000 You know, when you see him when they had the happy birthday thing for him and he's dancing and everybody's cheering.

00:08:06.000 Like, imagine if people treated you like that all the time.

00:08:10.000 Oh, my goodness.

00:08:11.000 Auditioning actors, female actors, to see if they were going to be your girlfriend. 1.00

00:08:15.000 Did you read that?

00:08:16.000 I mean, imagine if they rounded up the most attractive young female actors in Hollywood to see whether they would go on a date with you. 1.00

00:08:24.000 That would make life very simple.

00:08:26.000 If you weren't married, as I am.

00:08:27.000 Would it, though?

00:08:29.000 Would it?

00:08:30.000 I don't know, man.

00:08:31.000 I mean, it's just dealing with a bunch of nutty people that are willing to go through that process.

00:08:35.000 Yeah, and actually, because it would be like an almost King Midas thing where you wouldn't trust any of your instincts.

00:08:42.000 You would feel as though people were erecting Potemkin villages everywhere you went. 0.98

00:08:48.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:08:48.000 Yes.

00:08:48.000 Nothing would feel quite real.

00:08:50.000 Right.

00:08:50.000 That's a good point.

00:08:51.000 Also, like...

00:08:53.000 Imagine your wife today, if you found out that your wife today was one of the people that had auditioned to be Tom Cruise's wife.

00:08:59.000 I mean, if you don't make the cut, you're damaged goods for the rest of your life.

00:09:02.000 That's interesting. 0.85

00:09:03.000 You're a nutty broad who is willing to go and sign up to become Tom Cruise's new wife. 1.00

00:09:09.000 Well, to be fair, they didn't know that was the job they were going in for. 0.98

00:09:12.000 Right, to be fair.

00:09:12.000 Yeah, that's true.

00:09:14.000 They just thought they were up for some gig.

00:09:17.000 I mean, you know what I mean?

00:09:19.000 Maybe a sitcom or something.

00:09:21.000 Well, essentially they were.

00:09:23.000 And then there's also all of the...

00:09:25.000 This is a different thing to skirt around, but the Scientology treatment of homosexuals where they sort of shield them from the press or hide their activity and sort of...

00:09:38.000 Do you know what a beard is?

00:09:39.000 I do.

00:09:40.000 Yeah.

00:09:41.000 They hire beards. 0.89

00:09:43.000 I mean, that's a great point.

00:09:45.000 And I think, actually, that's another one that...

00:09:47.000 You know, I guess we as a society have evolved a lot over the last 50 years.

00:09:51.000 To some extent, Hubbard was a creature of his times and his attitudes towards homosexuality.

00:09:56.000 The trouble is, because they're saying it's a religion, that's been enshrined as scripture. 0.97

00:10:00.000 And so there is L. Ron Hubbard's scripture that dictates that homosexuals' gays are perverts. 0.94

00:10:07.000 They're 1.1 on the tone scale, which is the same as journalists, oddly enough, but it's very, very low. 0.99

00:10:14.000 Basically, you are a kind of broken, deceitful...

00:10:17.000 Devious character. 0.95

00:10:18.000 Journalists are 1.1 on the tone scale. 0.96

00:10:20.000 Same as perverts.

00:10:25.000 And that explains a lot about why it's so hard to make a documentary.

00:10:29.000 In practical terms, why they don't cooperate with documentaries.

00:10:32.000 They just see you as a pervert.

00:10:34.000 You know, someone who's dedicated to the abasement of humanity, in essence.

00:10:39.000 Someone who's holding humanity back from being what it should be.

00:10:41.000 That's just incredible that he's managed to define journalists under that category.

00:10:47.000 The very people that we rely upon to investigate the truth.

00:10:51.000 And express that truth and disseminate that truth to the general public. 0.97

00:10:57.000 Those people are perverts.

00:11:00.000 And that's scripture as well. 0.98

00:11:01.000 You know what I mean?

00:11:02.000 So it's not like you can argue against it.

00:11:06.000 I mean, one of the big things they're up against is most kind of malfunctioning regimes, whether it's a corporate entity or something else, you say, this isn't working, let's try something else.

00:11:19.000 So much of what happened in Scientology, this was explained to me by One of our sources in the film, a guy called Marty Rathbun, who was very high up in Scientology, he said something could be working extremely badly inside Scientology, but if it came out of Hubbard...

00:11:33.000 Then you couldn't really change it.

00:11:35.000 Hubbard apparently once said, oh, the best way to wash windows is using vinegar.

00:11:40.000 You're like, don't use Windex, use vinegar.

00:11:42.000 And because of that, whenever they washed windows in the Sea Org, in the inner sanctums of Scientology, they had to use vinegar because Hubbard said that was how you were supposed to do it.

00:11:50.000 And nothing can be changed.

00:11:52.000 It's a bit like Mormons. 1.00

00:11:54.000 I mean, now Mormons, I don't know how they got around it. 1.00

00:11:55.000 They say that you don't have to be polygamous.

00:11:57.000 But it's like turning an aircraft carrier around.

00:12:00.000 If it comes from...

00:12:01.000 Basically, if it's gospel, then how do you reform—you know, God's changed his mind is basically what you have to say.

00:12:09.000 Well, that is the real problem with religion, because we all recognize that no one person has ultimate truth, and especially when you're just going through this life trying to figure out yourself, trying to figure out what is this all about, this— Strange spinning ball that's floating in the sky and we're hurling through infinity and what is the purpose of this existence?

00:12:29.000 And there's a lot of open-ended questions that never have any answers.

00:12:32.000 So when someone comes along and they have this rigid ideology where things are very clearly defined, you must ask, who is defining these things?

00:12:42.000 Who is this person that is beyond reproach?

00:12:45.000 And when that person is a yellow-toothed weirdo that's dressed like a captain with some medals that he put himself... 0.57

00:12:52.000 On his own jacket. 0.99

00:12:53.000 And he's a science fiction author who wrote more bullshit than any human being has ever read. 1.00

00:12:58.000 And wrote bad books. 1.00

00:13:00.000 I mean, he's a bad writer.

00:13:02.000 I've only...

00:13:02.000 I haven't read any of his...

00:13:04.000 I've tried to read Dianetics several times.

00:13:07.000 It's almost unreadable in my view.

00:13:10.000 Have you tried to read Dianetics?

00:13:11.000 Yes.

00:13:11.000 I bought Dianetics once.

00:13:12.000 A late night...

00:13:13.000 Before the internet, there was a late night infomercial.

00:13:17.000 I've always been a person who's really into self-help and psychology.

00:13:20.000 Yeah, me too.

00:13:21.000 Because I've always tried to figure out, like, what is it about...

00:13:26.000 Why do people sabotage themselves?

00:13:28.000 Why do I get lazy?

00:13:29.000 Why do I not fulfill some of my goals?

00:13:32.000 And so I really got into Anthony Robbins and I got into a lot of psychology books and self-help books.

00:13:37.000 And one night I was at home and I was watching this commercial for Dianetics.

00:13:41.000 So I said, all right, I'm going to call this.

00:13:43.000 And I called, and I guess I gave my credit card number or whatever it was.

00:13:47.000 You were an actor at this point.

00:13:50.000 I was a working actor.

00:13:50.000 Quite successful.

00:13:51.000 Yeah, I was doing okay.

00:13:53.000 If they saw you coming, that would have made their year.

00:13:57.000 Well, I never went in.

00:13:59.000 But in the future, I did do the e-meter thing, but that was way later.

00:14:03.000 So this is like 1994, when I just first came to Hollywood.

00:14:07.000 I was alone in my apartment in North Hollywood, probably lonely, trying to figure things out.

00:14:11.000 Just got here. 0.99

00:14:12.000 I don't want to buy this fucking thing. 0.99

00:14:14.000 Those people sent me pamphlets and paperwork and invitations to seminars and this thing and that thing for a decade. 1.00

00:14:24.000 I mean, it just never ended.

00:14:26.000 It was like weekly, monthly, constant.

00:14:30.000 They're very, very relentless in their pursuit.

00:14:32.000 And if you looked at what their pamphlets were saying, it was all really reasonable, enticing stuff.

00:14:38.000 It was all about improving yourself.

00:14:40.000 It was all about fulfilling your goals, eliminating negative thoughts, eliminating other people's negative thoughts that are influencing the way you view your life, eliminating the effect of past experiences that were negative and that may have defined you in some way.

00:14:55.000 Yeah, all of that, but that's basically Freud, basically.

00:15:00.000 It's Freud with a lie detector.

00:15:03.000 You're hooked up to a lie detector.

00:15:05.000 That, in essence, is auditing.

00:15:06.000 The problem is, when you read Dianetics, you realise how loopy it is, in my view, and in fact...

00:15:13.000 Because sometimes, and I praise this sort of sceptical-minded approach where people say, well, what's your problem with Scientology?

00:15:20.000 You know, all religions are kooky. 1.00

00:15:22.000 But the fact is, exhibit A is just read Dianetics.

00:15:26.000 If you read the Bible, it's got loony stuff in it, but it's got passages of transcendent poetry and just parables that you can meditate on and are beautifully written in the translated English.

00:15:39.000 You read Dianetics, and it's just childish stuff about, literally, things about, oh, a lot of your problems may be because when you are in utero as a fetus, your father tried to abort you.

00:15:52.000 Your father tried to abort the fetus, and you can still remember that, and that's holding you back.

00:15:58.000 And at that time, a record was playing, and every time you hear that record, it sort of...

00:16:03.000 This sort of Pavlov mixed with really weird, totally unscientific ideas.

00:16:10.000 And then it expands to past lives.

00:16:13.000 So it's traumas or bad memories from previous lifetimes.

00:16:17.000 And at that point, I'm just like, I'm not on this ship.

00:16:20.000 Well, I wasn't on it before, but even more soon.

00:16:22.000 It's hard to be honest.

00:16:24.000 But that's what we were saying earlier about rigid ideologies.

00:16:28.000 Rigid ideologies are always problematic, because there's so many open-ended questions when it comes to being a human being on Earth, and that is a problem with religions.

00:16:37.000 One of the things that religions do by creating these rigid ideologies is they make things so that you don't have to question stuff, and that gives some people comfort.

00:16:46.000 If you know that these are the rules and you don't have to think about why homosexuality is bad or why, you know, fill in the blank, whatever the issue is.

00:16:57.000 When someone defines something like that for you, it makes it so you have less questions and you have comfort in these truths, you know, air quotes.

00:17:08.000 But that's not good for anybody.

00:17:10.000 No.

00:17:11.000 It's bad for everyone involved because there are some things that I think we've all learned.

00:17:17.000 Be nice to people and it feels better to them.

00:17:20.000 It feels better to you.

00:17:22.000 You have a healthier existence when you have harmony with your neighbors and when you can create a good community of people that are being harmonious together and friendly together.

00:17:30.000 It's a really nice place to live.

00:17:32.000 That's pretty much a universal truth.

00:17:34.000 There's a bunch of those that exist, but even those can be debated and discussed, and you find various approaches to the end goal of happiness. 0.97

00:17:46.000 Whenever you have someone who wrote down a bunch of wacky shit like this, and then you have seemingly intelligent people defending it, like that woman that we were discussing, that woman, she did not seem stupid at all.

00:18:01.000 No, I'm sure I was reliably informed because in the film we go off and meet her ex-husband who's now no longer in Scientology and he describes her as a very sensitive, caring person. 0.83

00:18:13.000 A lot of the assertiveness she shows I think she probably acquired through Scientology and a lot of Scientology training in terms of what it imparts to people It's one of the reasons that I think it appeals a lot to actors because it works,

00:18:40.000 I think, for people who have any sort of insecurity or who are going into situations of uncertainty and It allows you to almost reprogram your circuits in some way and be okay about using assertive body language and speech.

00:18:55.000 And it also imparts the sense that you have all the truths necessary to save humanity from itself, not just humanity on Earth, but throughout time and space.

00:19:05.000 And it is your obligation to ensure that those truths are saved for posterity and communicated as widely as possible.

00:19:13.000 In a totally unadulterated fashion, because any adulteration of the message means that not only do they not work, they become toxic and dangerous.

00:19:22.000 It seems to me that there's a bunch of things going on, and that there's some aspects of it that maybe could be beneficial, that they could extract from that.

00:19:32.000 I'm sure.

00:19:33.000 It's almost like these people that have abandoned Scientology can start Scientology lite.

00:19:37.000 Well, they do.

00:19:38.000 They are doing that.

00:19:39.000 Are they?

00:19:39.000 Yeah, but one of the funny things is once you have Scientology lite, it's called the Indy movement, independent Scientology, and it's often an analogy is made with Martin Luther and Protestantism, you know, when people said, you know,

00:19:54.000 there's nothing in the Bible about the papacy, really.

00:19:57.000 There's nothing about selling indulgences and having palaces in Rome, in the Vatican.

00:20:02.000 So actually, really, there's just stuff in the Bible about...

00:20:17.000 I think?

00:20:25.000 You get something a bit wishy-washy that's more or less indistinguishable from many other self-help creeds.

00:20:33.000 It sort of loses its potency.

00:20:35.000 It's almost that the authoritarian dimension of Scientology and the way in which it demands total obedience from its followers is intrinsic to its ability to have an effect.

00:20:47.000 That's fascinating.

00:20:49.000 People do, in some way, gravitate towards discipline.

00:20:54.000 And you see that in the military, like the benefit of, so, yes, sir!

00:20:59.000 No, sir!

00:21:00.000 And one of the things I talk about in the film is, I mean, we talk as well about the appeal of Scientology.

00:21:05.000 Why do people defend it?

00:21:06.000 So it works for some people.

00:21:07.000 I think there's an obvious thing of...

00:21:09.000 The thin end of the wedge, you know, you get in knee-deep and then you think, well, I've come in this far, so even though I've got doubts, I'll go a little further.

00:21:17.000 And then you sort of reach a tipping point of commitment where it becomes almost embarrassing to back out.

00:21:23.000 You're sort of $100,000 or more in.

00:21:26.000 You're 10 years in.

00:21:27.000 Your family is annoyed with you.

00:21:30.000 A lot of them you don't see.

00:21:31.000 It's very hard to walk away from that commitment.

00:21:34.000 So there's all these powerful, compelling reasons for why.

00:21:40.000 But the other part of it is, and this is the part that I as an outsider appreciate and I own up to in the film, is that there's something grandiose.

00:21:49.000 It's a bit like Trump, right?

00:21:50.000 You see these gilded casinos, you see these towering, shiny buildings, you know, they're kind of over the top and grotesque, but they're also sort of majestic and imperial.

00:22:01.000 And if you ever watch Scientology footage, some of it's on YouTube, and you see how they are very good at a certain kind of over-the-top aesthetic.

00:22:12.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:22:12.000 Almost a kind of Lenny Riefenstahl-esque with lights and flaming braziers and thousands of people surging upward in unison.

00:22:22.000 And it has an effect.

00:22:24.000 You sort of think, wow, these guys know how to run a show.

00:22:27.000 Yeah.

00:22:27.000 If you go into any org – have you been into an – they call them orgs, right?

00:22:30.000 No.

00:22:43.000 It's sort of designed by Jay Peterman, you know, like the catalogue company, and it has sort of old globes and kind of distressed wooden furniture and wicker chairs, and it feels like it's got a slightly colonial golden age of exploration feel.

00:22:57.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:22:58.000 And it feels very sort of swept up in this narrative of we're in a place where there's adventure and a sense of order, and actually there's a sort of seductive quality to it.

00:23:11.000 Yeah, there's a seductive quality to a lot of religions.

00:23:14.000 I find a seductive quality to people that are very confident in what they're saying and this ultimate truth that they're espousing.

00:23:22.000 I went to the Vatican recently.

00:23:25.000 And one of the things that was really apparent to me was the sheer scale and the vast, the size of like St. Peter's.

00:23:36.000 What is it?

00:23:36.000 It's not St. Peter's.

00:23:38.000 It's not Cathedral.

00:23:40.000 It's called St. Peter's, isn't it?

00:23:42.000 Basilica.

00:23:42.000 Yeah, the Basilica.

00:23:43.000 Thank you.

00:23:44.000 The Basilica, which was just, to me, the most amazing thing I think I've ever seen as far as like a human creation, the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life, other than Chichen Itza, other than the Mayan pyramids.

00:23:55.000 I was just stunned by the amount of work and the hundreds of years of work that had gone into creating that.

00:24:02.000 But when you're there, the overall scale of it is so immense that it makes you feel...

00:24:09.000 It makes you feel small.

00:24:11.000 It makes you feel insignificant in the greater picture.

00:24:14.000 And I think that that's a big factor with a lot of religions is to eliminate the power of the individual by making you feel diminished by the sheer scale of what you're seeing and the hall that you're in.

00:24:30.000 I'm sure.

00:24:30.000 I'm sure that's correct.

00:24:31.000 It's intimidating.

00:24:32.000 Very much so.

00:24:35.000 Yeah.

00:24:58.000 I think we're good to go. 0.99

00:25:17.000 Yeah, sex slaves are okay. 0.94

00:25:19.000 They'll say, like, slaves isn't quite the right term, but we approve of that, and blah, blah, blah. 0.92

00:25:23.000 And then they say, well, by what authority do you challenge what we believe, right?

00:25:28.000 When you start coming at them with some kind of humanistic, secular, liberal sort of view of life...

00:25:34.000 And you try to explain, well, I'm not basing my...

00:25:36.000 I don't have an authority as such.

00:25:38.000 You know, like, I'm not preaching a religion.

00:25:41.000 I'm just saying, you know, it's kind of better to be nice to people.

00:25:44.000 And they say, but based on under what authority?

00:25:47.000 Like, you find that you actually don't really have...

00:25:50.000 It's surprisingly difficult when you're thrown back on first principles to make the case...

00:25:56.000 For a sort of sensitive, secular way of doing things.

00:26:00.000 Does that make sense?

00:26:01.000 Yes.

00:26:02.000 You know, one of the appeals of, I think, whether it's Scientology or Islam or Christian, extreme Christianity, you know, whatever form that takes, they can say, like, we have all our answers.

00:26:13.000 They're in a book.

00:26:14.000 And God told us.

00:26:16.000 So who told you?

00:26:18.000 And I'm like, well, no one told me.

00:26:19.000 I'm relying on a two-millennia-old tradition, you know, founded in, you know, Greco-Roman times, you know, with various people, you know, interpreters over the years.

00:26:31.000 But actually, you know, I can't really articulate that in ten words.

00:26:36.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:26:37.000 And it's surprisingly hard.

00:26:39.000 So once you're in the prison of A faith-based system, it's very hard to kind of leverage your way out. 1.00

00:26:45.000 I didn't do a good job of trying to get them out, basically. 0.55

00:26:48.000 Well, it's very difficult when they say that, like, by what authority?

00:26:52.000 And you realize, well, you don't have any, and they think they do.

00:26:54.000 Yeah.

00:26:55.000 And that's where it gets weird.

00:26:56.000 Yeah, you're like, I don't have a book, like, whatever we call the other way of doing things, you know?

00:27:01.000 And also, you don't want to say, like, well, in Western tradition, you know, you're trying not to, because whether we like it or not, all our beliefs have some sort of geographic and temporal specificity to them.

00:27:11.000 As much as we might want to say that there are golden rules that exist through time and space, I don't think there really are.

00:27:19.000 Right, like all of culture.

00:27:50.000 The guy who's like the ISIS defender, he's in prison now.

00:27:54.000 That was one of the reasons we didn't finish the documentary.

00:27:57.000 Anyway, that's sort of going off on a tangent slightly.

00:27:59.000 What did he go to prison for?

00:28:00.000 For allegedly glorifying terrorism.

00:28:02.000 You know, did you hear that Twitter yesterday banned 235,000 Twitter handles?

00:28:09.000 No, really?

00:28:10.000 For promoting terrorism. 0.68

00:28:12.000 Really?

00:28:12.000 235,000.

00:28:14.000 That's incredible.

00:28:15.000 I mean, I'd be intrigued to know how they define promoting terrorism.

00:28:20.000 Would that all be Islamic? 1.00

00:28:23.000 Yes.

00:28:23.000 I would assume, because I am not.

00:28:28.000 So it must be that.

00:28:30.000 But I wonder if there was a conservative Breitbart blogger who is bad.

00:28:35.000 Milo.

00:28:36.000 Milo Yiannopoulos.

00:28:37.000 That was very sketchy.

00:28:40.000 I don't agree with what he said, but if you really pay attention to what he said, it was very sketchy that they banned him.

00:28:46.000 I mean, you believe in freedom of speech or you don't, kind of.

00:28:50.000 Yes.

00:28:50.000 And all he did was he made a post on Breitbart about the Ghostbusters movie.

00:28:58.000 And it was very critical. 1.00

00:28:59.000 He basically called it a piece of shit. 1.00

00:29:00.000 It was a terrible movie. 1.00

00:29:01.000 He said it was this ridiculous feminist film and that creating this all-female Ghostbusters cast where all the men are buffoons. 1.00

00:29:10.000 Did he not flame the African-American actor? 1.00

00:29:13.000 He flamed everyone. 1.00

00:29:14.000 He called them fat and ugly and disgusting. 1.00

00:29:17.000 And, you know, what he's saying is essentially like, look, I'm bitchy. 1.00

00:29:20.000 He's bitchy all the time. 1.00

00:29:22.000 He's a very flamboyantly gay guy. 1.00

00:29:24.000 He's been in this podcast a couple times. 0.96

00:29:26.000 He's hilarious.

00:29:27.000 I find him funny.

00:29:28.000 I follow him on Twitter.

00:29:30.000 He used to.

00:29:31.000 Yeah, well, there you go.

00:29:32.000 Well, they banned him.

00:29:33.000 But here's what's interesting.

00:29:35.000 He didn't do anything bad on Twitter.

00:29:37.000 When you look at what he said on Twitter, it was like nothing.

00:29:40.000 You know, it was like nothing more than...

00:29:43.000 Leslie Jones had said a bunch of things about him or what other people had said about her.

00:29:51.000 And she wrote something down that was just poor grammar.

00:29:55.000 And he wrote, my word, barely literate.

00:30:00.000 Such a shame.

00:30:01.000 Schools in America.

00:30:02.000 That's essentially what he wrote.

00:30:04.000 And then he was banned.

00:30:05.000 I mean, that is really mild stuff.

00:30:08.000 I think there's a problem, first of all, that he's conservative.

00:30:12.000 And they don't like that.

00:30:14.000 And that he does attack feminists and social justice warriors and progressives and the left.

00:30:22.000 And he goes after them.

00:30:23.000 And that's essentially the whole base of Twitter.

00:30:26.000 Twitter has this, what do they call it again?

00:30:30.000 What is their council?

00:30:32.000 They have some strange...

00:30:33.000 It's very Orwellian.

00:30:34.000 It's like safety and trust and safety council where things...

00:30:39.000 A watchdog group within Twitter that keeps tabs on it?

00:30:42.000 Well, who decides what is and is not harassment and sort of...

00:30:46.000 It's sort of like placating people who are recreationally outraged by other people's opinions.

00:30:52.000 The trouble is it's a public space that is basically also a corporate entity, right?

00:31:22.000 It doesn't seem to me...

00:31:24.000 Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with you.

00:31:26.000 I mean, I feel as though we're in a weird place.

00:31:28.000 We're off on a tangent slightly, but it was around the time of Charlie Hebdo, which everyone was marching for the right to be offensive, right? 0.53

00:31:37.000 And around the same time, trolling became a buzzword, and it was the idea that we should stop trolling.

00:31:42.000 And there's a certain disconnect we're living through as a culture to do with Wanting to defend the right to be offensive but also come down hard on trolling and actually at a certain point You can't have it both ways.

00:31:53.000 Yeah.

00:31:53.000 Well, there was also a lot of people that were defending What had happened in Charlie Hebdo by saying that those cartoons were really racist.

00:32:02.000 They were going so far pro-Islamic to sort of...

00:32:06.000 Well, I'm gonna say I what I heard was and because I understood this was some people saying Absolutely, it's a crime.

00:32:13.000 It's hideous.

00:32:14.000 And people have the right to be, you know, to be offensive.

00:32:18.000 But I'm not going to valorize the message or even hold these people up as free speech martyrs any more than I would do if Tom Metzger or a neo-Nazi was killed.

00:32:31.000 He does not thereby become a hero.

00:32:33.000 He becomes a victim of a lynch mob, of a murderous campaign.

00:32:38.000 But I'm not thereby a supporter of...

00:32:42.000 His output.

00:32:43.000 Does that make sense?

00:32:44.000 Yeah, I'm sorry.

00:32:45.000 There's a mistake here.

00:32:47.000 I have to text that to Tom Papa who thinks he's supposed to be here right now.

00:32:52.000 Apparently he's outside.

00:32:54.000 He's supposed to be here next Monday.

00:32:56.000 Whoops, Tom.

00:32:58.000 Yeah, I think...

00:32:59.000 So Penn, for example, I think it was Penn, the American...

00:33:04.000 Magician?

00:33:05.000 No, Writers' Union.

00:33:07.000 It's a guild of writers that supports the rights of writers around the world in America.

00:33:11.000 And they said, well, we don't want to give an award.

00:33:13.000 So there was a divide among Penn.

00:33:15.000 Should we give an award to Charlie Hebdo?

00:33:17.000 By giving them an award... 1.00

00:33:20.000 Are you there by saying, we support you for saying that Mohammed was a piece of shit, or whatever they were saying? 1.00

00:33:27.000 Or are you, you know, in other words, do you get an award for being killed? 1.00

00:33:30.000 Does that, there's a little bit of a conflict there.

00:33:33.000 Yes.

00:33:34.000 In other words, so I don't, I'm sympathetic to people who feel that absolutely it was a crime, it was hideous, you know, Islamofascists killed Charlie Hebdo, but that does not thereby make Charlie Hebdo's message a laudable or creditable one.

00:33:48.000 Yes, that's a really good point, because what were they doing, and what was the point of what they were doing?

00:33:53.000 Were they just trying to be funny?

00:33:54.000 Was it parody?

00:33:56.000 I don't know if it was funny, because I don't speak French, and I haven't really paid any attention to the translations.

00:34:03.000 Some of it seemed funny, some of it didn't seem that funny.

00:34:05.000 But if Julia Stryker, right, I don't want to compare them directly with this, but You know, an offensive propagandist for the Nazis. 0.99

00:34:14.000 Just to take an example.

00:34:15.000 You know, I shouldn't even go down this road, because once you bring the Nazis in, it just clouds everything. 0.94

00:34:19.000 Yeah, as soon as you say Hitler.

00:34:20.000 Yeah.

00:34:21.000 It's a kind of thought-blocking...

00:34:23.000 It blocks all thought. 0.54

00:34:24.000 He's worse than Hitler, this Trump. 0.97

00:34:26.000 Yes. 0.79

00:34:27.000 Yeah.

00:34:27.000 I think the real bottom line is people were killed for cartoons.

00:34:32.000 There's no way to defend that, right?

00:34:33.000 Correct.

00:34:33.000 I think everyone agrees with that.

00:34:34.000 We agree with that.

00:34:35.000 But does that make the cartoons good?

00:34:37.000 It certainly doesn't.

00:34:37.000 No.

00:34:38.000 They could be shit cartoons and people were killed for shit cartoons. 1.00

00:34:41.000 It's wrong to kill people for shit cartoons. 1.00

00:34:43.000 But the cartoons are still shit. 1.00

00:34:45.000 Even L. Ron Hubbard would agree with that. 1.00

00:34:47.000 Hopefully.

00:34:48.000 I don't know.

00:34:49.000 Well, let's bring it back to Scientology, because that's one of the interesting things about Scientology, is that anyone who is a quote-unquote opponent of Scientology, they are allowed to violate pretty much all of their principles and just go after you.

00:35:02.000 You are the enemy.

00:35:03.000 Yes.

00:35:03.000 And there's a whole different set of rules for engaging with someone who's an SP. Yes.

00:35:10.000 An SP, Suppressive Person. 0.95

00:35:11.000 I like how they do that.

00:35:13.000 That's what they do in the military, too, by the way.

00:35:15.000 IEDs. 0.81

00:35:16.000 They abbreviate things.

00:35:17.000 Acronyms.

00:35:18.000 And a lot of stuff in Scientology is based on Hubbard's naval experience.

00:35:23.000 They dress up in naval uniforms, and he loved things like...

00:35:27.000 Little, you know, bulletins or anything that felt kind of quasi-military and, you know what I mean?

00:35:33.000 In a way, it's a mixture of some military kind of naval stuff and then some corporate style stuff.

00:35:42.000 What it isn't is a lot of religious stuff.

00:35:43.000 Yeah.

00:36:08.000 Is a lot of how, allegedly, according to experts on thought reform or cults, so-called, they say that by learning a new language, it's part of what kind of gets you caught up in the thought patterns of an abusive system.

00:36:23.000 Well, that's also military people.

00:36:25.000 If you talk to people who really have a deep understanding of the military or people who love the military, they love to talk in those acronyms.

00:36:31.000 They love to use them because it sort of lets everybody know that you're on the inside.

00:36:35.000 Yes.

00:36:36.000 It's like when people talk about cars or anything where there's a surface knowledge that most people have.

00:36:43.000 Oh, that is a Ferrari.

00:36:44.000 Oh, that is a Corvette.

00:36:45.000 But then there's deep, deep knowledge.

00:36:48.000 You start going into the different types of gearing and the axles and, oh, it's got a 411 rear end and this and that.

00:36:55.000 And you're like, oh, he knows.

00:36:57.000 He's the deep knowledge.

00:36:59.000 He has the deep knowledge of the car.

00:37:00.000 Well, there's the deep knowledge of the military, and a lot of that is sort of expressed through acronyms.

00:37:06.000 Yes, yes.

00:37:08.000 AWOL, FUBAR. And they do that stuff. 0.99

00:37:11.000 So that's a big part of how they operate.

00:37:13.000 And I think as well, I mean, this is something I mentioned before.

00:37:16.000 It is important to bear in mind as well that As much as Scientology kind of casts the world in us and them terms, which is very characteristic of a lot of systems of thought that are inimical to freedom or free way of thinking,

00:37:32.000 it's us and them.

00:37:33.000 It's like Bush saying, you're either with us or against us.

00:37:35.000 And in Scientology, in a famous statement of Tom Cruise's that he gave in 2004 when he was given a Freedom Medal of Valour at a big Scientology awards ceremony in England, He said, you're either playing on the pitch or you're out of the arena.

00:37:51.000 He's the one when they gave him that gold dinner plate.

00:37:53.000 Yeah, they gave him a huge, like a Flavor Flav style gong.

00:37:56.000 And so his thing is like, you're either on the pitcher, get out of the arena because there's no half measures, you know?

00:38:02.000 Get in or you're out.

00:38:03.000 And that whole idea, like if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

00:38:07.000 It's a very dangerous, slippery road to go down because you're then by definition saying, there's good guys and bad guys.

00:38:14.000 And if you're not on my team, you're a bad guy.

00:38:16.000 Well, let's define what the solution is, Tom.

00:38:18.000 Sit down.

00:38:19.000 Tell us about what are thetans?

00:38:22.000 Explain to me how they throw them into a volcano.

00:38:27.000 What happens?

00:38:27.000 Well, you know, I'm going to sound weird now because one of my promises that I made to myself was that I would never gratuitously mock the beliefs of Scientology.

00:38:37.000 And one of the things they find offensive is to reveal some of the secret truths that are unveiled.

00:38:44.000 Okay, I'll take a step back.

00:38:46.000 Unique to Scientology is that it's a mystery religion, meaning that many of its beliefs are unveiled as you advance up the ladder of enlightenment, okay?

00:38:54.000 So you don't at day one get told, unlike with Jesus and Christianity, on day one you're told he died on a cross for your sins, believeth in him, and you will be saved and go to heaven.

00:39:04.000 There's no kind of catch or later sort of amendment that gets made when you're a year, two years, three years down the line.

00:39:11.000 In Scientology, you learn more as you go up.

00:39:15.000 Some say that this is partly something that it owes to Crowley, or Alistair Crowley, I think it's pronounced, and that Hubbard had practiced a form of Satanism when he was living in Pasadena in the 40s right after the Second World War and incorporated that aspect of it.

00:39:29.000 And it is quite a seductive idea, the idea, oh, I'm going to learn more as I go on, a kind of unraveling mystery.

00:39:35.000 So that is part of Scientology.

00:39:38.000 And when you get to the OT levels, which is once you've gone clear, which...

00:39:44.000 And OT is operating Thetan, yeah.

00:39:47.000 So to begin with, going clear was originally the best thing you could do, and then subsequently he added more levels and more layers, and you get to the OT, and there's eight published OT levels, and OT3, various secrets are revealed.

00:40:03.000 And allegedly, if an uninitiated OT or an uninitiated person is shown the secrets, it makes them go crazy.

00:40:13.000 But one of the things that...

00:40:15.000 And every documentary about Scientology rejoices in telling you what the OT stuff is.

00:40:23.000 And I think you were about to touch on it.

00:40:24.000 I promised myself that I wouldn't...

00:40:29.000 It's a little cheap when all these documentaries say, you know, $100,000 in or $200,000 or $500,000, you're going to learn what happens at OT3. And then they spoil the surprise for everyone.

00:40:43.000 And I also felt like I'd like to be able to say to, if I ever meet a Scientologist, I mean, I'm sure I've met some, but without knowing it, but you know, if I ever meet Tom Cruise or Beck, I want to be able to say like, you know what, I didn't ever do anything.

00:40:54.000 I just, I have a right to know my truth and express my truth.

00:40:57.000 I don't want to mock you.

00:40:59.000 I don't want to make, you have a right to believe what you want to believe.

00:41:01.000 And if you think, you know, no more than I'd force a Jewish guy to eat pork or tell a Rastafarian he had to cut his hair. 0.98

00:41:07.000 And so I'm not going to say to an OT, you know, I know what happens at OT3 and it sounds like a bunch of junk. 0.65

00:41:14.000 Well, you don't even have to say it's a bunch of junk, but just expressing, I think there's what we know, okay, what we know about their doctrine or their, whatever you want to call it, their scripture.

00:41:29.000 And there's an amazing moment in the documentary, the HBO documentary, where was it?

00:41:33.000 Was Paul Higgs?

00:41:35.000 Haggis.

00:41:35.000 Haggis?

00:41:36.000 Haggis, thank you.

00:41:36.000 He gets to OT3. Yeah, you're going to say it.

00:41:38.000 Fine.

00:41:38.000 He gets to OT3 and he starts reading some of the handwritten stuff by L. Ron Hubbard.

00:41:44.000 There's a whole palaver.

00:41:45.000 It's an interesting bit in the book, too.

00:41:46.000 Do you remember?

00:41:47.000 He's guided into a room, and literally, it's almost like they take it out of a safety deposit box and kind of open it up with white-gloved hands.

00:41:56.000 And then there's a handwritten piece of parchment inside, written in Hubbard's manuscript.

00:42:02.000 And you read it in that room, and then the guy has a kind of little routine he follows.

00:42:07.000 Like, the person who brought you in comes in and says, has it been read and comprehended?

00:42:10.000 Or something like that, right?

00:42:12.000 And then you've read it, and you go like, uh, yes.

00:42:15.000 And then ask, and it shall be done.

00:42:17.000 Or something, and then they put it back in and take it away, yeah.

00:42:19.000 Well, it must be...

00:42:20.000 It's a great sense of theatre.

00:42:22.000 Yes!

00:42:22.000 Like, I love...

00:42:23.000 It's like being in the Masons.

00:42:25.000 I mean, all that secret squirrel stuff is very appealing.

00:42:28.000 Secret squirrel!

00:42:33.000 Yeah.

00:42:34.000 I forgot about Secret Squirrel.

00:42:36.000 Yeah.

00:42:38.000 But I think it's important to talk about what we know about what that is, about what is...

00:42:43.000 That's fine.

00:42:44.000 I mean, it's out there, it's on the internet.

00:42:45.000 You don't want to.

00:42:46.000 What I would say is what they believe is that man is an immortal spirit.

00:42:51.000 And you are not your body.

00:42:54.000 You are the spirit.

00:42:55.000 And the spirit is a thetan. 0.98

00:42:56.000 That's the term they use for spirit.

00:42:58.000 And your spirit, you, in essence, have lived multiple lifetimes in multiple bodies, going back millennia and going forward millennia.

00:43:05.000 And that's not a unique thought.

00:43:06.000 No, I mean...

00:43:07.000 Unique to them.

00:43:08.000 No, you have that in Buddhism, but unlike in Buddhism, the transmigration of souls resides only in humans, right?

00:43:16.000 I don't think you can become a chipmunk. 0.98

00:43:19.000 Which you can in Buddhism, I think.

00:43:21.000 Can you not?

00:43:22.000 I do not, no.

00:43:37.000 It's the ability to retain your memories and your identity across multiple lifetimes.

00:43:43.000 And that's why it's so important to a Scientologist to recollect his or her past lifetimes because it suggests that you're now on your cosmic destiny and you will carry it forward when you next incarnate.

00:43:59.000 These are all unique ideas.

00:44:01.000 I mean, they're interesting, but when you know the source of all of it, and yet they ignore it, and they choose to not pay attention to the other things that he read, or wrote rather, like Battlefield Earth, that movie with John Travolta.

00:44:15.000 Did you ever see that?

00:44:15.000 I never saw that one.

00:44:16.000 It's wonderful.

00:44:19.000 It's wonderful.

00:44:20.000 It's right up there with, did you ever see Showgirls? 0.93

00:44:24.000 Yes, I have seen Showgirls. 0.84

00:44:26.000 Showgirls is like a tour de force of writing a movie while you're high on cocaine. 1.00

00:44:31.000 It's Joe Esterhaas who wrote that.

00:44:32.000 Paul Verhoeven directed it.

00:44:34.000 It's a great combination.

00:44:36.000 It's one of the best unintentional comedies that's ever been made.

00:44:40.000 Well, I'd argue that, because Verhoeven's a brilliant director, right?

00:44:43.000 Yes.

00:44:43.000 And Starship Troopers he made and the first Robocop.

00:44:48.000 I think he knew what he was doing.

00:44:50.000 I think he has a keen eye for Kemp and thought, this is hilarious.

00:44:55.000 Estahar's maybe not.

00:44:56.000 It could have been.

00:44:57.000 It could have been. 0.99

00:44:58.000 I think they were just coked out of their mind and they made a wacky fucking movie and they probably thought it was great. 0.99

00:45:04.000 They're like... 1.00

00:45:04.000 Fucking print it. 1.00

00:45:05.000 Let's go. 1.00

00:45:06.000 Let's go out.

00:45:06.000 Let's hit the ivy.

00:45:07.000 And I don't know.

00:45:09.000 I mean, I think they were just out of their mind.

00:45:10.000 I mean, if you watch that film, there's a scene where, what is her name?

00:45:14.000 Elizabeth?

00:45:15.000 Berkeley.

00:45:16.000 And the other guy from Blue Lagoon.

00:45:20.000 Is it?

00:45:21.000 What was that TV show that he was on? 0.99

00:45:23.000 The handsome one, Kyle, what the fuck's his name? 0.99

00:45:28.000 McCloughlin? 0.99

00:45:29.000 Is it?

00:45:30.000 Yeah, Kyle McCloughlin. 0.99

00:45:31.000 They're having sex in a pool, and she starts flopping around like a fish. 0.98

00:45:35.000 She literally starts having spasms. 1.00

00:45:37.000 If you continue to have sex with her, I feel like that's rape. 1.00

00:45:40.000 This is a woman who's having a goddamn seizure, and you're going to keep having sex with her? 1.00

00:45:44.000 Have you ever seen this scene? 1.00

00:45:45.000 No.

00:45:46.000 It's wonderful.

00:45:46.000 Oh, well, I've seen the movie.

00:45:47.000 So yes, I must have.

00:45:48.000 It's wonderful. 1.00

00:45:50.000 They're having sex and she starts flailing as if she's having a goddamn stroke. 1.00

00:45:55.000 She's in the middle of a heart attack or a seizure. 0.99

00:45:59.000 That choice is the only thing that haunts me about that movie.

00:46:03.000 Maybe it was camp.

00:46:05.000 Maybe they were doing that on purpose.

00:46:06.000 I think it was.

00:46:07.000 But I read an interview with the director of Battlefield Earth.

00:46:12.000 Is it Battlefield Earth?

00:46:14.000 And he apparently is a pretty good director and he's a European, I think, maybe French.

00:46:20.000 And I think he just didn't know what he was walking into.

00:46:23.000 You know, and I think he didn't even, he didn't really check out what he was, what the gig was.

00:46:29.000 Well, that was a product of John Travolta, wasn't it?

00:46:32.000 Yeah, I think Travolta was back some driving it, maybe.

00:46:35.000 And it's wonderfully bad.

00:46:38.000 Yeah.

00:46:38.000 There's a funny bit in Going Clear in the book where they, I think Cruise sees it and it's like, this is so embarrassing for Scientology.

00:46:47.000 He's really upset about it. 0.99

00:46:50.000 Well, he was upset that they showed that video of him, you know, saluting, you know, to LRH, you know, they salute when they got the medal, all that crazy shit. 0.98

00:46:58.000 Yeah, that's all over YouTube. 0.98

00:47:01.000 The recruitment video?

00:47:01.000 Was he upset about that being leaked?

00:47:03.000 Yeah.

00:47:03.000 Oh, they tried to get that taken down, and of course it spread like wildfire through the internet, because you just can't take things like that down.

00:47:11.000 No, it's classic.

00:47:12.000 Although a lot of stuff's been, there are a lot of great Scientology videos that have been taken down.

00:47:17.000 Really?

00:47:17.000 Yeah.

00:47:18.000 Yes, like there's a famous one that's very hard to find.

00:47:22.000 It's the orientation video that was shown to new parishioners.

00:47:26.000 This is back in the 80s and it was done by an infomercial pitch man who was then a Scientologist and then subsequently left.

00:47:34.000 You know, by the way, do you know one of the, they don't cast Scientologists in Scientology commercials.

00:47:40.000 Do you know why?

00:47:41.000 Why?

00:47:42.000 Because they blow too often, like they leave, and then they no longer want to be in the video, or it becomes embarrassing to have someone speak.

00:47:49.000 Can you imagine if Leah Remini was in a commercial for Scientology?

00:47:52.000 They'd never be able to use it again, right?

00:47:54.000 Right, right.

00:47:55.000 So it's sort of insurance, because they want to be able to use the...

00:47:59.000 They spend a lot of money on the commercial, and they don't want to be embarrassed when the Scientologist, who's the star of the commercial, leaves Scientology and says that they were brainwashed.

00:48:07.000 That's their actual reason for doing it?

00:48:09.000 That's what I'm told, yeah.

00:48:09.000 How many of them left?

00:48:11.000 What's the retention rate?

00:48:13.000 I don't know.

00:48:13.000 They keep the data very close to their chest.

00:48:16.000 So I know that they have, they say millions, I think they say 40 million, some vast amount worldwide.

00:48:26.000 I know that on Tony Ortega's blog, I think there's a U.S. census data that perhaps suggests in the U.S. it might be 20,000 or 30,000.

00:48:37.000 We should probably get that fact-checked.

00:48:39.000 But I believe I read that there are more people who identify as Jedi as their religion than there are Scientologists.

00:48:48.000 I'm a Jedi.

00:48:49.000 I just decided.

00:48:51.000 Is it a long process to become a Jedi or can you just...

00:48:54.000 Claim it.

00:48:55.000 I think this is a long process, but it's very cheap is a good thing.

00:48:58.000 Oh, well, I've watched all the movies.

00:49:00.000 I think I'm in.

00:49:03.000 It's amazing to me that this exists.

00:49:07.000 I understand that it exists.

00:49:10.000 Intellectually, when I sit back and I look at the many, many different religions and many, many different ideologies that people subscribe to, and The vast amount of people out there that are searching for truth and answer and something to belong to,

00:49:25.000 even that, even though all those things make sense to me intellectually, I'm still fascinated.

00:49:32.000 I'm still so puzzled that in 2016, with the internet, with all the access to information that we have today, that that still exists.

00:49:41.000 And you look forward and you wonder, is this going to fizzle out?

00:49:48.000 But I think what they've done is they've kind of created a marketing juggernaut that is, if not immune to, but at least highly resistant to any attempt to discredit or undermine.

00:50:03.000 So I read a thing that said, well, it's religion that sells secrets, right?

00:50:07.000 That's its USP. So that will be...

00:50:26.000 Scientology's Waterloo will be the fact that we now have searchable data.

00:50:32.000 But it shows no signs of coming apart.

00:50:35.000 You know, the numbers may not be high, but the amounts of revenue coming in are huge, from what I can tell.

00:50:43.000 And I get the feeling that, well, you just have to see how...

00:50:48.000 The amount that they're able to spend on advertising, the number of new buildings that go up.

00:50:53.000 So however small it may be, it has a huge punching power.

00:50:57.000 Where are they getting the money from?

00:50:59.000 Well, it's an interesting point.

00:51:01.000 The first thing is that it's structured almost like a McDonald's.

00:51:06.000 And interestingly, in 1950, the year that Dianetics was published, was also the first year that McDonald's was established.

00:51:13.000 That's pointed out by...

00:51:14.000 I don't know if you ever read Janet Reitman's book, Inside Scientology.

00:51:17.000 It came out...

00:51:17.000 A year before Larry Wright's book, Going Clear.

00:51:21.000 So it's thunder was stolen by Going Clear, but it's also an excellent book and a great primer.

00:51:27.000 If you enjoyed Going Clear, I highly recommend Inside Scientology.

00:51:30.000 And she points this out, that in 1950...

00:51:33.000 McDonald's was invented and so was Dianetics.

00:51:37.000 So they basically kind of, it's a franchise system in which they are sort of selling, they own the property of the various buildings in which Scientology is sold, and then they license the materials, but they can't really, you know,

00:51:52.000 some of the franchisees can lose money, but Scientology itself can't really lose money because they're just getting rents from the people who are selling the Scientology.

00:52:01.000 Does that make sense, the services?

00:52:02.000 But it doesn't make sense that they get that much revenue from that.

00:52:06.000 I know they're gigantic real estate holders.

00:52:08.000 So they have huge amounts of real estate.

00:52:10.000 The other part of it is that because it's a religion, the money is tax deductible or whatever.

00:52:16.000 They don't pay taxes on it, in essence.

00:52:18.000 And so I think that means that it's very hard for them to lose money.

00:52:22.000 It's a huge cushion against financial failure.

00:52:26.000 Well, that was a really disturbing part of the documentary, which showed how they became a tax-exempt religion.

00:52:32.000 The government essentially caved under the threat of massive amounts of lawsuits.

00:52:37.000 Yes.

00:52:39.000 Basically, the Scientologists found a way to pressure individual IRS employees to the point where their lives had become extremely hard. 0.98

00:52:47.000 So they settled.

00:52:49.000 What year was that when that happened?

00:52:51.000 I want to say...

00:52:52.000 I want to get this right.

00:52:54.000 92, I would say.

00:52:56.000 92, maybe 93. It's amazing that that's upheld.

00:52:59.000 I know.

00:53:00.000 But then again, I mean, the benchmark for having charitable status is not that high.

00:53:08.000 Look at the Clinton Foundation, right?

00:53:10.000 I mean, the people scrutinizing what qualifies as a charitable enterprise do not seem to be...

00:53:19.000 Working.

00:53:22.000 Especially...

00:53:29.000 We're good to go.

00:53:47.000 And that's the footage of Tom Cruise is at one of these events.

00:53:51.000 And they're like these huge Hollywood-style award ceremonies where they pack hundreds of Scientologies into an auditorium.

00:53:58.000 And they both look quite impressive.

00:54:00.000 So to the outsider, they look kind of grandiose and impressive.

00:54:03.000 But they are, in essence, a kind of live infomercial event where everyone who's there is then aggressively...

00:54:12.000 Yeah.

00:54:16.000 Yeah.

00:54:20.000 Yeah.

00:54:36.000 I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling, but there's a lot of information.

00:54:39.000 So they get huge amounts of money for that, and that money then, one of the good things about that is that can never be revoked.

00:54:48.000 One of the problems they had in the past was, if you spend $10,000 on credit...

00:54:54.000 And say, I love Scientology.

00:54:55.000 This is going to be amazing.

00:54:56.000 And then you, like, $1,000 into your services, you're like, this isn't doing anything.

00:55:01.000 I want to leave.

00:55:02.000 And then you ask for your money back, and it's very hard for you to get your money back.

00:55:06.000 Whereas the donations that are made to something called the IAS, Association of Scientologists, you can't get those back once you leave.

00:55:14.000 Anyway, I'll make it very simple for you.

00:55:16.000 There's very rich Scientologists who make large donations, basically.

00:55:20.000 There's a guy called Bob Duggan who's a multi-billionaire.

00:55:23.000 Who's donated literally tens of millions. 1.00

00:55:27.000 Poor bastard. 0.99

00:55:28.000 I mean, and there's a lot of actors who... 0.99

00:55:31.000 Well, Leah Remini, she's one of the most famous detractors, right?

00:55:37.000 The person who's left...

00:55:39.000 Right until she was one of its most famous supporters.

00:55:42.000 Yeah.

00:55:43.000 But that's weird, because her turnaround was like that.

00:55:47.000 Yeah.

00:55:48.000 Well, I have a lot of respect for that.

00:55:49.000 I mean, I think there's a lot of guys...

00:55:50.000 Like, this guy who was...

00:55:51.000 I was talking about this pitch...

00:55:52.000 The infomercial pitch man who did the orientation video that was taken down from YouTube.

00:55:57.000 He's called Larry Anderson, right?

00:55:59.000 And he...

00:56:00.000 I really wanted to interview him for our film because I just thought the orientation video is so funny.

00:56:06.000 It's one of this...

00:56:08.000 It's this video where they say, he goes, welcome to Scientology.

00:56:12.000 If at the end of this video you decide this is not for you, that's fine.

00:56:16.000 You're welcome to leave. 0.98

00:56:18.000 Just as you're free to throw yourself off a bridge, you'll blow your brains out.

00:56:23.000 So it's this very over-the-top kind of thing. 0.99

00:56:26.000 It's just ludicrous.

00:56:27.000 But he left Scientology so they couldn't show it anymore.

00:56:31.000 But he left...

00:56:33.000 Like most high-profile defectors, he just didn't want anything more to do with it.

00:56:38.000 He's just like, I'm done.

00:56:39.000 And very often they cut a deal where they say, fine, Scientology will say, we'll let you do the X, Y, and Z, whether it's get some money back...

00:56:48.000 Speak to your friends and family who are still in Scientology, but we don't want you speaking out.

00:56:53.000 And so then the defector will be like, okay, fine, I want a simple life. 0.73

00:56:57.000 But Leah Remini, to her credit, has actually, you know, gone out there and absolutely made it a mission to call them out.

00:57:06.000 How far did she get?

00:57:08.000 I don't know where.

00:57:09.000 I think she was quite far.

00:57:10.000 Most of the actors, I think actors, they're considered people of influence, and so they get a certain amount of services for free.

00:57:18.000 That's the impression I have.

00:57:20.000 And so I think they're encouraged to go up the bridge quite quickly.

00:57:24.000 I had a neighbor who was a Scientologist, and he wanted to buy a piece of property, and we had a discussion about this, how I found out he was a Scientologist.

00:57:33.000 He said out of nowhere, you know, we start talking about this.

00:57:36.000 He's like, yeah, I'm thinking about buying it, but right now my wife is about to go clear.

00:57:40.000 And I go, this is a long time ago.

00:57:43.000 I go, what does that mean?

00:57:44.000 And then he starts expressing what it means and that...

00:57:48.000 She's no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts, and this is going to cost $50,000.

00:57:54.000 It's probably more now.

00:57:56.000 Probably.

00:57:56.000 This is the 90s, but $50,000 for a ceremony where you're no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts.

00:58:04.000 And then you find out, actually, footnote, there's this other thing you have to deal with.

00:58:10.000 And then there's another 15 levels.

00:58:15.000 So, yeah.

00:58:16.000 It's a funny one.

00:58:18.000 Did you talk to Leah Remini?

00:58:20.000 We approached her.

00:58:21.000 You know, I should explain that.

00:58:22.000 We took a specific approach.

00:58:24.000 We knew going into it.

00:58:25.000 I had been gestating this idea for years.

00:58:28.000 And I'd been fascinated with Scientology going back to the late 80s when I was a student.

00:58:34.000 And then I remember in 90 or 91, I took a tour around the L. Ron Harvard Life Exhibit there on Hollywood Boulevard.

00:58:42.000 And had this weird feeling of...

00:58:45.000 If you've ever gone in where you just think, wow, it's like they took a person who was kind of an average sci-fi writer and attempted to make him sound like he was the second coming of Jesus.

00:58:56.000 And so everything is spun and it's just a weird feeling, you know, seeing a whole museum dedicated to someone who seems to have been a relatively unremarkable...

00:59:08.000 Do you know what I mean?

00:59:09.000 And so they're working extremely hard, saying like, he was one of the youngest ever Eagle Scouts to ever qualify in the state of Montana.

00:59:17.000 And you're like, well...

00:59:19.000 And I was like, my dad was an Eagle Scout.

00:59:21.000 That's not that big a deal, is it?

00:59:24.000 And so then I remember halfway through, I thought, well, this was funny for 10 minutes.

00:59:28.000 And then an hour later, when you're on this guided tour, I've had enough.

00:59:32.000 And so I said, I really need to leave.

00:59:33.000 And he said, well, where do you need to go?

00:59:35.000 Like, what's so important that it's more important than you see in the rest of it?

00:59:37.000 And I suddenly felt under pressure, that uncomfortable feeling of like, oh, wow.

00:59:42.000 And I had to pretend that I needed to be somewhere just to get out of the building.

00:59:45.000 Anyway, so years go by and I think I'd love to make a program about it.

00:59:49.000 And then I could never quite find...

00:59:50.000 I approached them and they said, long story short, we're not really interested.

00:59:55.000 You know, they took me on a tour of the Celebrity Center.

00:59:57.000 They strung me along for a bit, but it was pretty clear quite quickly that they weren't going to let me in.

01:00:02.000 So a few more years went by and...

01:00:06.000 I was approached by a Hollywood producer called Simon Chin who made Man on Wire and Searching for Sugar Man.

01:00:13.000 So he's well-credentialed.

01:00:15.000 And he's like, you know, you should do something about Scientology.

01:00:17.000 I gave him the spiel about why I hadn't because they won't let me in.

01:00:20.000 And as you know, my way of making documentaries is by invitation.

01:00:24.000 You know, I make an approach and people say yes, and they let me in.

01:00:27.000 Oh, you're very polite in your approach.

01:00:29.000 Yes.

01:00:29.000 And actually, you know, I've done...

01:00:31.000 Whatever, you know, big game hunting or the Westboro Baptist Church or gurus in India.

01:00:38.000 But it's always, I say, like, can we come and film?

01:00:40.000 They say yes, and we do it.

01:00:41.000 So I just couldn't get my head around how you make a film where the people don't want you to make the film, as I knew they didn't, and have it be still true to what I do in some way.

01:00:54.000 And I didn't want it to be a kind of just poking them for the sake of it type of thing.

01:00:58.000 Anyway, we decided that there was a way of doing it using reenactments in which we took a sort of meta approach to the reenactments, where the whole process of casting and reenacting how you do Scientology using actors...

01:01:14.000 Was filmed.

01:01:14.000 In other words, we filmed casting a character to play Tom Cruise, casting an actor to play David Miscavige, and role-playing the different lines, and used ex-Scientologists to kind of co-direct.

01:01:27.000 So they were like, this is how you do it, and this is what Scientology is, and this was what it was like when I was in Scientology.

01:01:35.000 And really, part of it was knowing that once we did that in and around Hollywood, that because Hollywood is so central to Scientology, they would get wind of what we were doing and would start coming to us.

01:01:47.000 So there'd be this wraparound of them and children, they'd start filming us.

01:01:53.000 And it turns out they were making a documentary about me making my film about Scientology.

01:01:58.000 So then it becomes this sort of whole...

01:02:00.000 When is that getting released?

01:02:01.000 January.

01:02:02.000 It's out in the UK in October, but January...

01:02:05.000 No, I mean yours.

01:02:05.000 The one on you.

01:02:07.000 Oh, their one.

01:02:09.000 You know, I think it'll come out...

01:02:11.000 It's a great question.

01:02:13.000 I'm surprised it's not out yet.

01:02:15.000 I think it'll come out probably...

01:02:18.000 I don't know, man.

01:02:19.000 And what do you think it'll be about?

01:02:21.000 I think it'll be a lot like what they have done to other journalists.

01:02:26.000 They did one to Gibney.

01:02:27.000 They did one on Larry Wright.

01:02:30.000 They do them on ex-Scientologists if they're of sufficient kind of profile.

01:02:35.000 It'll be a 10 to 15 minute thing. 0.99

01:02:39.000 They'll extract any photograph where I look like a dick or ugly or ludicrous. 0.97

01:02:45.000 Any ill-advised bit of publicity I ever did where I was promoting a series and I looked goofy. 0.98

01:02:51.000 They'll say, this is a serious journalist.

01:02:54.000 And then they'll take quotes from interviews out of context to make me sound like either a goofball or kind of malicious deceiver.

01:03:04.000 And, you know, if you want to really see the DNA of Scientology, I often think, because occasionally I get caught in this mindset of like, you know, what is so, what is, it's just another religion.

01:03:14.000 There's no better or worse than other religions, really. 1.00

01:03:17.000 And then some, you know, you know, sometimes you can slightly lose, you go native slightly, or you're on their websites and you're thinking like, some of this makes sense.

01:03:25.000 But If you look at how they attack their enemies, they're so unlike other religions, certainly unlike Christianity for the most part. 0.99

01:03:35.000 So official Scientology's pronouncements when they attack ex-members and journalists are so tabloid and childish and so malicious and nasty...

01:03:45.000 You really see into something deep about their mindset.

01:03:49.000 Because their view, as you mentioned, is that if you're a suppressive person, i.e.

01:03:53.000 someone who's attempting to hold Scientology back, then you are fair game.

01:03:59.000 They could do almost anything to try and put you out of business.

01:04:03.000 Do you think that these documentaries, whether it's Going Clear or the book by Lawrence Wright or the other woman, what was the name of her book?

01:04:10.000 Janet Reitman.

01:04:11.000 What was her book again?

01:04:12.000 Inside Scientology.

01:04:13.000 Do you think that all this data, this accumulative data, reaches any of the members that are inside Scientology?

01:04:19.000 No, definitely not.

01:04:21.000 No, no way.

01:04:22.000 It's considered n-theta, which is a Scientology term.

01:04:26.000 It means interbulated theta.

01:04:29.000 This is like catnip to me explaining this stuff.

01:04:32.000 Is it?

01:04:32.000 Yeah, kind of.

01:04:34.000 It's like I said, I was steeped in it for three years, kind of absorbing all this.

01:04:39.000 Was it your whole life?

01:04:40.000 No, it wasn't.

01:04:41.000 Well, not constantly, but you would spend a few days kind of Hours would go by, and at the end of it you emerge like, have I learned anything?

01:04:50.000 All I know now is these absurd terms that are no use to anyone, like n-theta. 1.00

01:04:57.000 But in-turbulated, theta energy is, you know, thetans are spirits, theta is positive spiritual energy, but in-turbulated is bad.

01:05:04.000 So it's basically, n-theta is kind of bad for your energy, I think.

01:05:08.000 So it's n-theta for you to be in Scientology.

01:05:11.000 And it could be exposed to anything negative, anything critical of Scientology.

01:05:16.000 So they're encouraged to be off the internet and to be off.

01:05:21.000 Don't consume anything you think might be critical.

01:05:24.000 They're encouraged to be off the internet.

01:05:26.000 Wow.

01:05:27.000 Oh, well, I should say that applies to people within the Sea Orc, in the inner circle of Scientology.

01:05:33.000 Explain that, please.

01:05:35.000 Yeah, it's a really important distinction because...

01:05:38.000 I'm absolutely certain that there's plenty of extremely nice, well-adjusted Scientologists, people who consider themselves Scientologists.

01:05:47.000 My ex-neighbor.

01:05:47.000 Yeah.

01:05:47.000 He was a really nice guy.

01:05:48.000 I bet he was.

01:05:49.000 And I'm sure everything I hear about Beck, the musician, is that he's a nice guy.

01:05:55.000 And I'm sure Giovanni Ribisi is a nice guy.

01:05:58.000 That guy's in?

01:05:59.000 Yeah.

01:06:00.000 Really?

01:06:00.000 You didn't know that?

01:06:01.000 That guy's in?

01:06:02.000 Yeah.

01:06:02.000 Who?

01:06:03.000 And Jenna Elfman?

01:06:04.000 I mean, there's a...

01:06:04.000 She makes sense.

01:06:06.000 Really?

01:06:06.000 Juliette Lewis.

01:06:07.000 Yeah.

01:06:08.000 I bet she's nice. 0.80

01:06:09.000 I bet she's very nice.

01:06:11.000 She and I have gone back and forth.

01:06:12.000 We've talked to each other through messages on Twitter.

01:06:15.000 Yeah.

01:06:15.000 I wanted to get her in.

01:06:16.000 Talk to her.

01:06:17.000 And Danny Masterson?

01:06:19.000 I don't know who that is.

01:06:20.000 He's from, isn't he, that 70th show?

01:06:24.000 He's in too?

01:06:25.000 Yeah.

01:06:26.000 And Jason Lee, I think he might be out.

01:06:29.000 Really?

01:06:30.000 You know who I mean?

01:06:30.000 My name is Earl.

01:06:31.000 Yeah, that guy's in?

01:06:32.000 Yeah.

01:06:33.000 Man, you didn't spend very long down the rabbit hole.

01:06:36.000 Well, my rabbit hole was not limited.

01:06:38.000 I try to avoid any rabbit hole that involves celebrities.

01:06:42.000 But Scientology is predicated on...

01:06:44.000 One thing L. Ron Hubbard got right was the idea that if you get celebrities in, then you've got a kind of golden ticket to reaching the masses.

01:06:53.000 Yeah.

01:06:53.000 Yeah, I jokingly thought about joining when I first came here.

01:06:56.000 I was like, maybe that's the move.

01:06:57.000 Just become a Scientologist.

01:06:59.000 You could make a documentary about Scientology that would be totally different because...

01:07:03.000 Actually, maybe we've blown it by even talking about it.

01:07:06.000 But if you'd gone undercover...

01:07:07.000 If I just decided that was good.

01:07:09.000 I don't think they would listen. 1.00

01:07:11.000 They would probably fucking hate me. 0.99

01:07:13.000 Well, it depends what you've got out there. 0.99

01:07:15.000 I'm not a documentary maker either.

01:07:17.000 I don't have that sort of attention span that you have.

01:07:20.000 You could have gone undercover and you would have been such a great scalp for them.

01:07:24.000 They would have absolutely.

01:07:26.000 Because when was the last time you heard of an established celebrity actor joining?

01:07:32.000 Like, I mean, can you imagine if...

01:07:34.000 Well, maybe they can clean it up.

01:07:35.000 When Will Smith, there was a sniff that he might be going that way.

01:07:39.000 And it didn't pan out.

01:07:42.000 But that was unbelievable.

01:07:44.000 And there was a rumor that David Beckham might be flirting with it.

01:07:48.000 But I mean, none of these things were borne out.

01:07:50.000 Well, what they could do for you, if you were a David Beckham, or maybe even for me, is they could act as like a gang.

01:07:59.000 That sort of covers your back.

01:08:02.000 Absolutely.

01:08:04.000 And when I was doing the film, I went in, not exactly undercover, but I went in...

01:08:09.000 Not for a sequence in the film, just to sort of keep myself grounded, to keep it all real.

01:08:13.000 You know, because one of the challenges with when you're not exposed, you're not actually having day-to-day contact with the subject that you're covering, it's very easy to slip into a us-and-them mentality of your own.

01:08:24.000 And you're like, ooh, scary Scientologists, ooh, they're bad.

01:08:28.000 And actually, you know, they're not.

01:08:30.000 They're good people, many of them.

01:08:32.000 So I wanted to make them real, and I went along to Scientology Org and just sort of chatted to some people and said, you know, I make documentaries, I'm interested in this subject, you know, what's it all about?

01:08:44.000 And they really did, one of the things they do is a fairly hard sell, but you got the impression that they would 100% kind of take your money.

01:08:59.000 No, I think...

01:08:59.000 They would accept you.

01:09:00.000 Yeah, they would take your money, but they would absolutely, I think, be right on it.

01:09:04.000 I don't know.

01:09:05.000 You know, I kind of lost confidence in...

01:09:07.000 I was going to say 100% have your back and be your gang, but I don't know if I really did have that sense.

01:09:13.000 I think if they knew you were a celebrity, if they thought you were, they would really go to...

01:09:18.000 You would get special treatment.

01:09:20.000 I was in San Diego and I was filming this television show.

01:09:23.000 We had a few hours downtime and they had one of these booths set up where you would go over there and hold on to those cans, the E-meter.

01:09:31.000 And I did all that.

01:09:32.000 How many sessions did you do?

01:09:35.000 Just one.

01:09:35.000 Just one while I was there.

01:09:37.000 I bet it was pretty good, was it?

01:09:38.000 It was boring.

01:09:40.000 Was it?

01:09:40.000 The guy who I got was very unenthusiastic.

01:09:45.000 It seemed like something they required him.

01:09:47.000 You're supposed to be unenthusiastic.

01:09:50.000 Oh, yeah?

01:09:50.000 Well, on the e-meters, there's a script for how—it's called being an auditor.

01:09:54.000 When someone's auditing you, in a sense being the therapist, they have a script.

01:09:57.000 They have to sit there comfortably, but they are not supposed to show any emotion when they're auditing you.

01:10:05.000 Hmm.

01:10:06.000 He was doing it publicly, too.

01:10:08.000 Yeah.

01:10:08.000 He was holding on to this thing and asking me questions.

01:10:10.000 Was he reading The Needle and saying...

01:10:12.000 Yes.

01:10:12.000 Did he say, like, is there a prior or something?

01:10:15.000 There's a whole script they sort of say.

01:10:17.000 And did you have to say, like, I had a back pain, and then they're like...

01:10:21.000 Would you remember what road you went down with what you were saying?

01:10:24.000 Hardly.

01:10:25.000 I just remember thinking that this guy...

01:10:27.000 It's just normal therapy.

01:10:27.000 It's nothing that special.

01:10:29.000 Yeah.

01:10:29.000 The guy seemed like they were forcing him to do it.

01:10:32.000 He didn't seem like this was something he was interested in.

01:10:35.000 He's just really not interested in what he was doing.

01:10:39.000 And he seemed like a volunteer.

01:10:40.000 That's interesting.

01:10:41.000 I mean, when they're auditing, they're supposed to be somewhat blank.

01:10:45.000 A big thing in Scientology is sort of being comfortable in yourself and not, like, learning how to stare at someone.

01:10:52.000 There's a drill that we do in the film where you have to sit and stare at someone without saying anything, literally for, like, minutes, if not hours.

01:11:01.000 And it's actually a powerful...

01:11:03.000 To all because it's all about I'm unembarrassable.

01:11:06.000 I'm going to own any sort of sense of awkwardness by just like I'm impermeable to any kind of social influence you think you can put on me, right?

01:11:16.000 It's one of the paradoxes of it being controlling religious movement because so much of it is about controlling yourself.

01:11:24.000 Do you know what I mean?

01:11:24.000 And not allowing other people's thoughts or negative actions to control you.

01:11:28.000 It's actually a big thing as well.

01:11:30.000 And one of the things Tom Cruise talks about when he's in his video is PTSP, confronting shattering suppression.

01:11:41.000 I don't think I even said they got my acronym right.

01:11:44.000 But anyway...

01:11:44.000 His thing is, he says one of the best things he learned in Scientology was how to confront and shatter suppression, right?

01:11:52.000 So any time you see him in an interview, and there's a few of them on YouTube where he thinks he's getting a cheeky question, you can see he kind of gets a steely look where it's a sort of, it's not exactly adversarial, it's just like, no, you're out of line, buddy.

01:12:08.000 Well, the Matt Lauer interview.

01:12:09.000 Yeah.

01:12:10.000 Which was...

01:12:11.000 Devastating for his career in the short term.

01:12:14.000 He recovered from it.

01:12:15.000 But that was a window into madness and into what he's really all about.

01:12:21.000 That's the scary part.

01:12:23.000 I mean, as much as I say there's a big chunk of it that feels kind of valid and normal, maybe even therapeutic, but when you tip into thinking that you're the authority on mental illness and That's dangerous.

01:12:37.000 And individual issues with people that you have not diagnosed, you don't have any medical training whatsoever, you don't know what their specific neurochemistry is, you don't know the effect of the medication and whether it's enhancing or hurting them, and you just have this blanket view of psychiatry.

01:12:53.000 That was an issue that L. Ron Hubbard had.

01:12:56.000 And if you go down Sunset, Yeah, I think it's Sunset.

01:13:00.000 On Sunset, yeah.

01:13:01.000 It has that psychiatry kills. 0.55

01:13:03.000 It's psychiatry, the industry of death.

01:13:05.000 Yeah.

01:13:05.000 That's a fun afternoon.

01:13:08.000 And that's one of their centers, right?

01:13:10.000 Yeah.

01:13:10.000 If you go in there, they'll explain to you.

01:13:12.000 They call it the CCHR, Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

01:13:16.000 And here's my issue with that.

01:13:19.000 I think prescription drugs are over-prescribed.

01:13:23.000 I think there's a real argument that there's a lot of people that are on antidepressants that shouldn't be on antidepressants.

01:13:29.000 I think there's a lot of natural alternatives, one of them being exercise, one of them being enhancing your standing in life in terms of what you do for a living or where you live or the people that you hang out with.

01:13:41.000 All those things can affect the way you feel and that can be interpreted as depression. 0.96

01:13:46.000 There's a lot of I mean, there's a reason if your life is shit, if all the aspects of your life is shit and you feel bad, the solution's not a pill, right? 0.98

01:13:54.000 So I think in some ways they've got something to say that makes some sort of sense. 0.98

01:14:00.000 But in a weird way, though, that's the dangerous part because it's where Scientology intersects with a totally valid...

01:14:07.000 Social critique, right?

01:14:09.000 The trouble is, if you have someone who's heavily psychotic, and it's not a medication-induced psychosis, you know, psychosis is a real medical phenomenon, and Scientology's not going to take them on.

01:14:22.000 If you go to Scientology and say, I'm interested in Scientology, I've had a couple of psychotic breaks, but I really think you could help me out, they're not going to say, Oh, come with us.

01:14:31.000 They'll run a mile from you.

01:14:33.000 Really?

01:14:33.000 So they're critiquing people who they have no intention of helping themselves.

01:14:38.000 Oh, wow.

01:14:39.000 Yeah.

01:14:39.000 And if you say, oh, and by the way, I've used some...

01:14:43.000 In the past, I was medicated for my psychosis.

01:14:46.000 They'll say, well, that disqualifies you from treatment.

01:14:49.000 When I went to my one, they said, what forms of intervention have you had in the past?

01:14:53.000 Have you done any sort of psychiatry?

01:14:55.000 Have you had any problems like that?

01:14:56.000 And I said, well, no, but I've had, you know...

01:14:59.000 A little bit of therapy over the years.

01:15:01.000 I said, what have you done?

01:15:02.000 I said, I did a few sessions of CBT, cognitive behavior therapy.

01:15:06.000 It's kind of bog standard, talking about, you know, problems, things you could do differently.

01:15:11.000 The woman's like, oh, okay, just give me five minutes, okay? 1.00

01:15:14.000 And she left the room to check whether that disqualified me and came back and said, oh, yeah, that's not a problem.

01:15:19.000 Okay, let's carry on.

01:15:20.000 But if you had gone on some sort of medication...

01:15:23.000 If I'd said I was on Zyprexa for 10 years because I had an episode when I thought I was a poached egg for a few weeks, she would have said, well, good luck with that and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

01:15:36.000 Oh, wow.

01:15:38.000 So they're not interested in treating people that have had treatment?

01:15:40.000 No.

01:15:41.000 Ooh, that's weird.

01:15:42.000 No, they'll say, tough break on this life, good luck in your next life.

01:15:47.000 They really would.

01:15:49.000 We should check that, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

01:15:52.000 Oh man, that's fascinating.

01:15:53.000 We don't go into this in the documentary, but you can read up on the internet about cases where there's been people who had mental illness either within Scientology.

01:16:06.000 I mean, perhaps the most famous scandal within Scientology...

01:16:11.000 Or the most notorious to Scientology watchers was the case of Lisa McPherson.

01:16:15.000 Do you know about her?

01:16:16.000 She's the one that died?

01:16:17.000 Yeah.

01:16:18.000 She's done in detail in Inside Scientology in the Janet Reitman book.

01:16:23.000 She was a paid-up Scientologist, took it very, very seriously.

01:16:26.000 A young woman, maybe 30...

01:16:28.000 And she had a psychotic episode in Florida.

01:16:33.000 And instead of being taken and given bed care in a facility, she was taken by Scientologists from a hospital and more or less sequestered in a hotel for a week or maybe longer and died in the hands of the Scientologists.

01:16:53.000 And what was her cause of death?

01:16:54.000 I believe it was dehydration.

01:16:56.000 We should double check on that.

01:16:58.000 Wow.

01:16:58.000 That's a rough way to go.

01:17:02.000 And she'd been having a total psychotic break.

01:17:06.000 She was, I think, attacking people who were attempting to take care or holding her hostage, depending on how you define it.

01:17:15.000 And there was a whole script that Hubbard had for dealing with people in psychosis, but I don't think it was medically supported.

01:17:26.000 It was basically involved ignoring them and keeping them secluded, kind of locking them in a room.

01:17:32.000 Now, I saw an interview with you where you were talking about someone who used to be a former Scientologist, a woman. 0.56

01:17:38.000 She wasn't a former Scientologist.

01:17:40.000 She had gone undercover to sort of investigate them.

01:17:43.000 Oh, yeah.

01:17:43.000 And you were talking about the auditing having a positive benefit.

01:17:49.000 Yes.

01:17:50.000 I think it probably does.

01:17:51.000 I mean, I think any kind of...

01:17:53.000 But on you?

01:17:54.000 Yeah.

01:17:54.000 I mean, the auditing I did...

01:17:56.000 I only did one session, and that was with...

01:18:00.000 You know, the main guy in the film is a guy called Marty Rathbun, and he was...

01:18:06.000 There's a sense in which the film is as much about him as it is about Scientology.

01:18:10.000 He was a Mr. Fix-It within Scientology.

01:18:13.000 He was the number two to David Miscavige.

01:18:14.000 David Miscavige is the guy who took over in 1986 or thereabouts from L. Ron Hubbard and has been running it ever since.

01:18:21.000 He's an unaccountable leader who is, in essence, the Pope of Scientology.

01:18:27.000 And there are many allegations of him being physically abusive towards his followers.

01:18:31.000 Marty Rathbun was his right-hand man for many years.

01:18:34.000 Marty Rathbun left in 2004 or thereabouts.

01:18:37.000 So he's sort of our deep throat in the film.

01:18:40.000 But he also cops to the fact that when he was in Scientology, he was involved in all kinds of devious, covert activity involving private investigators.

01:18:53.000 Destruction of documents and also a certain amount of physical violence himself, which he, you know, has apologized for.

01:19:01.000 And so he, it becomes a sort of examination of him and his ability to, the fact that he's been seduced by this thing, and it's still in certain ways, it's still in him.

01:19:12.000 You know, by, almost by definition, you can't be in something that long and that You know, Leah Remini was a celebrity parishioner, right?

01:19:20.000 She was going around the celebrity center, she was doing Scientology, but she was not in the Sea Org.

01:19:25.000 The Sea Org is this clergy, it's the inner saint.

01:19:27.000 It's the difference between someone who goes to a Catholic church a few times a year, right, and eats communion and prays a few times a year.

01:19:36.000 You can be a Scientologist in that way, right?

01:19:39.000 Which maybe your neighbor was.

01:19:40.000 But if you're in the Sea Orc, it's somewhere between being in the Vatican and being a monk.

01:19:45.000 You take a vow of poverty.

01:19:46.000 You volunteer.

01:19:48.000 You take a vow of poverty?

01:19:49.000 Yeah.

01:19:49.000 You get paid below minimum wage, tiny amounts.

01:19:53.000 You're leading a kind of Spartan existence to save the planet.

01:19:56.000 You sign a contract for 40 billion years or something.

01:19:59.000 I think it is literally.

01:20:00.000 Because it's supposed to cover all your future lifetimes, right?

01:20:02.000 So when you come back, you're still in the Sea Orc. 0.95

01:20:05.000 In fact, they're...

01:20:08.000 I think?

01:20:28.000 Marching around in a vow of poverty.

01:20:31.000 That's just the Sea Org guys.

01:20:32.000 And most of them live down, many of them live down in Hemet, outside LA. And that's where...

01:20:38.000 Where's Hemet?

01:20:39.000 It's outside, if you head towards Palm Springs, basically.

01:20:43.000 It's in the desert.

01:20:43.000 That's where they live?

01:20:44.000 Yeah.

01:20:45.000 There's a base down there.

01:20:46.000 Oh, they have some giant center down there that they're going to start producing movies, right?

01:20:49.000 Well, there's a center in Hollywood that they've just bought, yeah.

01:20:53.000 They've just, in fact, not just bought, they've just refurbed it and they've opened it.

01:20:56.000 And they're going to open it to films.

01:20:58.000 Which is bizarre because they have it.

01:21:00.000 Yeah, there it is.

01:21:00.000 $50 million movie and TV studio complex in Hollywood.

01:21:05.000 That just opened.

01:21:06.000 But they have a complex in Hemet as well, bizarrely.

01:21:09.000 So I don't know why they need another one. 1.00

01:21:10.000 They like buying shit. 0.99

01:21:12.000 Apparently, at one point in time, they were the number two real estate holders in Los Angeles. 1.00

01:21:16.000 Wow.

01:21:17.000 Well, yeah, that's amazing.

01:21:20.000 Maybe Hollywood?

01:21:22.000 Maybe.

01:21:23.000 Maybe.

01:21:23.000 I don't know.

01:21:24.000 But I think a lot of that is to do with, someone explain this to me, one of the rules about a non-profit or about being a religion, having their religious status, is they cannot hoard their income.

01:21:36.000 Like money that comes in has to be spent, otherwise they're in violation of their charitable status.

01:21:43.000 So, someone just told me this the other day.

01:21:45.000 So, in other words, they have to kind of keep buying buildings because there needs to be a cash outflow.

01:21:52.000 Which sort of makes sense, right?

01:21:53.000 Yeah, that's totally understandable.

01:21:55.000 Yeah, that makes sense.

01:21:56.000 Wow.

01:21:58.000 So, this guy, Marty Rathbun, who's sort of my guide through Scientology, and he's a fascinating guy.

01:22:05.000 And Marty was in for how long?

01:22:07.000 I want to say 24 years.

01:22:09.000 Maybe it was 27 years, but I think he said 27 years.

01:22:11.000 He had a nice outfit on.

01:22:12.000 He had a nice uniform.

01:22:15.000 He got the uniform.

01:22:16.000 The golden ropes around the shoulder.

01:22:17.000 I'll say this about him.

01:22:19.000 If you're in it and you're up at the top echelons as he was, you are on some kind of crazy sci-fi adventure.

01:22:26.000 If you think about it.

01:22:27.000 If you think it's real.

01:22:28.000 There he is.

01:22:29.000 Look at that.

01:22:30.000 You are living a kind of Jedi reality. 0.85

01:22:33.000 Look at that rope.

01:22:34.000 It goes across the chest.

01:22:35.000 You're saving planets.

01:22:36.000 What is his medals for?

01:22:38.000 Look at all his medals!

01:22:39.000 No, I think that might be...

01:22:41.000 Some of them are photoshopped.

01:22:43.000 Oh, really?

01:22:43.000 Yeah.

01:22:44.000 Oh, assholes. 1.00

01:22:45.000 Well, that might not be. 1.00

01:22:46.000 Some of them add medals just to make fun of...

01:22:48.000 That might be a real one.

01:22:49.000 I don't know.

01:22:50.000 But the one that was above it seems real, right?

01:22:53.000 Now, look at that one.

01:22:53.000 Yeah, that's real.

01:22:54.000 So he doesn't look like that now because that's 30 years ago.

01:22:57.000 How amazing is it that they give them military medals?

01:23:00.000 I mean, it looks like no different than what a general would have.

01:23:03.000 Yeah.

01:23:04.000 I mean, it's a beautiful thing, in a way.

01:23:06.000 Yeah, I mean, it's an exciting life.

01:23:09.000 They probably wouldn't be doing the dishes in that outfit. 0.98

01:23:12.000 Like, that's special occasions.

01:23:14.000 Special occasions.

01:23:15.000 And I'm sure he would get special treatment.

01:23:17.000 I'm sure being the number two guy must have been an amazingly privileged position.

01:23:21.000 Well, yes and no, because basically, there's only really a number one, which is David Miscavige, and then there's just everyone else.

01:23:27.000 Do you know what I mean?

01:23:28.000 Oh, well, there's Tom Cruise, and then there's him.

01:23:30.000 But Tom Cruise is kind of number one, right?

01:23:32.000 He's right up there.

01:23:34.000 No, because actually, don't you remember in Lawrence Wright's book, there's a bit where Tom Cruise explains, I think maybe to Nazanin Boniardi, like his girlfriend at the time, he says, don't you...

01:23:47.000 Like, he's annoyed with his girlfriend.

01:23:48.000 This is after it split up from...

01:23:51.000 Penelope Cruz?

01:23:53.000 No, the one before...

01:23:54.000 The Australian broad?

01:23:56.000 Yeah.

01:23:57.000 You know who I mean.

01:23:58.000 Nicole Kidman.

01:23:58.000 Thank you.

01:23:59.000 Nicole Kidman.

01:24:00.000 By the way, she was considered an SP because her father was a psychiatrist, I believe.

01:24:07.000 Anyway, so he went out with a woman called Nazanin Boniardi for a while, and there's a section in Going Clear where they talk about – I think – Miscavige came around for dinner or something, and I think it was...

01:24:20.000 Anyway, his girlfriend at the time was having trouble understanding what Miscavige was saying, because he speaks quite fast.

01:24:30.000 So she was like, what are you saying?

01:24:33.000 And Tom Cruise was really upset and said to her, don't you get it?

01:24:37.000 There's LRH... Then there's C-O-B, and then there's me. 0.98

01:24:43.000 You're doing a goddamn good Tom Cruise impression. 0.99

01:24:46.000 Do that again. 1.00

01:24:47.000 Don't you get it?

01:24:48.000 There's L-R-H, then there's C-O-B, and then there's me.

01:24:52.000 Don't you get it?

01:24:53.000 Don't you get it?

01:24:53.000 You're glib.

01:24:54.000 You're glib, Matt.

01:24:55.000 You're glib, Matt.

01:24:55.000 You're glib.

01:24:57.000 That's a really good impression.

01:24:59.000 I feel him.

01:25:00.000 I feel him saying that.

01:25:01.000 I don't think I need Scientology if I... I've got caveman nitro.

01:25:05.000 Yeah, 270 milligrams of caffeine.

01:25:07.000 That's given me an OT edge.

01:25:09.000 I'm on OT5 right now.

01:25:11.000 Do you know what Morning Thunder is?

01:25:13.000 I think I had that yesterday.

01:25:14.000 You mix this caveman coffee with some emulsified MCT oil in an iced coffee.

01:25:20.000 That's what I have every morning.

01:25:21.000 What is emulsified MCT oil?

01:25:23.000 It's MCT oil that you can mix very easily with cold beverages or hot.

01:25:27.000 What is MCT oil?

01:25:28.000 Medium chain triglyceride oil.

01:25:31.000 It's the most nutritious aspects of coconut oil that are blended together.

01:25:35.000 They spin in a centrifuge to extract the best stuff.

01:25:38.000 Did we just do a commercial?

01:25:39.000 No!

01:25:41.000 You can get it anywhere.

01:25:42.000 MCT oil is readily available at any sort of health food store, and a lot of Erewhon and Whole Foods and those type of places carry it.

01:25:51.000 I've never even heard of that.

01:25:52.000 You know of coconut oil, right?

01:25:54.000 Yeah.

01:25:54.000 They're healthy fats.

01:25:56.000 They're really good for your brain.

01:25:57.000 Good stuff.

01:25:58.000 Yeah.

01:25:59.000 So, that's Morning Thunder.

01:26:00.000 The point being, we are on so many tangents right now.

01:26:04.000 Yeah, we went off.

01:26:06.000 COB, what does COB stand for?

01:26:07.000 COB is Chairman of the Board.

01:26:10.000 There we go.

01:26:11.000 C-O-B-R-T-C. There's L-R-H. There's C-O-B. And then there's me. 0.98

01:26:14.000 And then there's Glib.

01:26:16.000 Then you're Glib.

01:26:17.000 And then there's Matt Lauer.

01:26:18.000 And then there's John Travolta just below Matt Lauer.

01:26:20.000 Apparently they have quite a dim view of John Travolta within Scientology.

01:26:23.000 What?

01:26:24.000 Why?

01:26:24.000 This is gossip.

01:26:25.000 All the butt-fucking? 1.00

01:26:27.000 What is it? 0.99

01:26:28.000 I think he's viewed, I don't know, Marty Rathbentop.

01:26:32.000 That's allegedly.

01:26:32.000 Can I throw an allegedly in there?

01:26:34.000 Allegedly, they have a bad view of him.

01:26:37.000 A lot of what I'm saying is based on, you know, once he blew, once he left, Marty Rathbun spilled his guts on the internet in order to let people know what was going on.

01:26:50.000 And he was the biggest thing, I would say, in terms of exposing Scientology for what it is, probably in the history of Scientology.

01:27:00.000 John Travolta's wife was on Fear Factor, and I got to meet John Travolta because his wife was in the finals.

01:27:05.000 She lost to Coolio, who was... 0.92

01:27:07.000 By the way, you want to talk about a guy who performs very well under the influence of marijuana.

01:27:14.000 Coolio might be at the top of my list, right up there with Joey Diaz.

01:27:18.000 Coolio, they would open up his trailer, and it was like a Cheech and Chong movie.

01:27:21.000 It was hilarious.

01:27:23.000 And he would go out there, and he would perform these stunts just high as a kite.

01:27:28.000 I mean just gone because you look in his eyes They were just glazed over and he would perform flawlessly and the last stunt involved balance It was his balance thing and I had a conversation with him before we did it and I was unfortunately stone-cold sober at the time I believe and Coolio was he's like I've done this a million times in a million different lives in other universes.

01:27:50.000 I'm ready to do it right now.

01:27:51.000 I'm like, get after it, sir.

01:27:53.000 Good luck to you.

01:27:55.000 But John Travolta's wife, what is her name again?

01:27:57.000 Kelly Preston.

01:27:59.000 She's very, very nice.

01:28:01.000 Very nice and seems so normal.

01:28:05.000 I had conversations with her and she even sent me a gift.

01:28:09.000 There was some sort of protein powder that she was drinking, some health drink that she was drinking.

01:28:14.000 I asked her about it and she said, you know, give me your address.

01:28:16.000 I'll have some sent to you.

01:28:18.000 So she sent some to the studio, I believe.

01:28:20.000 She was very nice.

01:28:21.000 I'm sure.

01:28:22.000 Greta Van Susteren is a Scientologist. 1.00

01:28:24.000 Get the fuck out of here! 1.00

01:28:25.000 That's the one that surprises me. 0.99

01:28:27.000 Really?

01:28:27.000 Isn't she a journalist?

01:28:29.000 I would have thought...

01:28:30.000 Yes.

01:28:30.000 Fox News.

01:28:31.000 Yeah.

01:28:31.000 Is she on the...

01:28:32.000 I don't know.

01:28:33.000 Is she on the tone scale or not?

01:28:35.000 I don't really get...

01:28:36.000 Yeah, how can she be...

01:28:38.000 She's inside.

01:28:39.000 Maybe there's an exception.

01:28:40.000 Well, I met her once as well.

01:28:43.000 She seemed very nice as well.

01:28:44.000 There's something about George Carlin.

01:28:46.000 I'm sure she is nice, and I'm sure you can be.

01:28:49.000 I mean, not to sound like a broken record.

01:28:50.000 Well, again, my neighbor, my former neighbor many years ago, was a very nice guy.

01:28:55.000 And I've met a lot of Scientologists inside of Hollywood, and they all have this actor-y thing going on, which is, I would like to believe that they are as nice as they're pretending to me, but I'm not sure.

01:29:09.000 You know that actor-y thing?

01:29:11.000 Yes, and I know one of my early experiences when I was talking to a Scientologist when I was trying to first negotiate access to the church back in 2003 was I'd sent her some old documentaries that I'd done.

01:29:26.000 So this is who I am, this is what I do.

01:29:28.000 And she was on the phone and she said, oh yeah, I got the DVDs and I was watching them.

01:29:36.000 And she started laughing in the act of talking about...

01:29:39.000 Like a fake laugh?

01:29:40.000 Yeah.

01:29:40.000 And I was like, that didn't feel quite real.

01:29:43.000 Yeah.

01:29:43.000 And then later on, another person I knew who was a Scientologist did the same thing.

01:29:47.000 We're like, I saw the thing you did on television.

01:29:51.000 Oh, that is a pet peeve of mine.

01:29:54.000 I was like, oh, wow.

01:29:54.000 That is a giant.

01:29:56.000 Maybe that's part of what they do is sort of weird love bombing.

01:30:00.000 I don't know.

01:30:01.000 Maybe that was just coincidence.

01:30:02.000 Well, it makes sense because they're trying to be influential and they're trying to be charming.

01:30:08.000 Yeah.

01:30:09.000 Right?

01:30:09.000 I find a lot of the Scientologists that I've met that are actors, they're extremely charming.

01:30:14.000 Like, this is one of the things you hear about Tom Cruise.

01:30:15.000 He looks you in the eye, he talks to you, remembers your name.

01:30:18.000 Firm handshake.

01:30:18.000 Yeah.

01:30:19.000 I'm sure that's true.

01:30:20.000 I mean, they drill, as I said, they drill on looking people in the eye.

01:30:24.000 But let's just assume that that's his real behavior pattern now.

01:30:27.000 It's a very good behavior pattern.

01:30:29.000 It's nice.

01:30:29.000 Yeah.

01:30:29.000 It's very nice.

01:30:29.000 I'm in favor of positivity, although I think the world needs negative people.

01:30:33.000 What?

01:30:34.000 I think there need to be some.

01:30:35.000 What?

01:30:36.000 Don't you?

01:30:37.000 But wait a minute.

01:30:37.000 It's part of the ecology of life.

01:30:39.000 Ah, the yin and the yang.

01:30:41.000 Yeah.

01:30:41.000 If everyone was positive, then, I mean, it would be a little too much.

01:30:46.000 Well, it would be very strange if the world did become enlightened.

01:30:49.000 Like, what if some pharmaceutical company devised some pill that eliminates all the negative aspects of humanity?

01:30:55.000 So much.

01:30:56.000 We all just started taking it.

01:30:57.000 Yeah.

01:30:57.000 I mean, look, how many people brush their teeth?

01:30:59.000 Pretty much everybody, right?

01:31:00.000 What if everybody started doing whatever this is, this new thing, which eliminated, became prevalent throughout the world, eliminate, like, vaccinations, right?

01:31:09.000 Pretty much...

01:31:10.000 I would estimate high 90% of the Western world is vaccinated.

01:31:15.000 Every now and then I meet some kid who had hippie parents and they gave him apple cider vinegar and they never vaccinated him.

01:31:21.000 A few of those exist.

01:31:23.000 But for the most part, most people are vaccinated to prevent against diseases.

01:31:28.000 If we came up with some sort of a vaccination to prevent the more disgusting aspects of human beings, negative behavior, aggression, meanness, it'd be very curious, very curious as to how that would play out, whether or not that would diminish ambition and progress and who knows.

01:31:49.000 Yes, I think it was, yeah, it's like you said, the yin and the yang.

01:31:53.000 I think Scientology aspires to be that, you know, and I think the danger of it is it would bear certain similarities to a sort of almost fascist vision, I think.

01:32:06.000 I mean, I think that there is an overlap there, you know, the cult of health.

01:32:11.000 The cult of glowing, smiling, beacons of health and humanity marching up and down.

01:32:17.000 And actually, it's our ability to rub along with difficult characters and to sort of embrace the ugly side.

01:32:27.000 I can't define exactly what it is, but it feels like that's an important dimension of life.

01:32:32.000 Well, it certainly seems to be that there's a dynamic that plays out between human beings and that we learn not just from the positives but also from the negatives.

01:32:42.000 And I learn a lot from other people's negative behavior how to never be like that myself without having to make those same mistakes.

01:32:49.000 Also learn from my own mistakes, I'm sure.

01:32:52.000 But when we see horrible things in the news and negative things, I think that does sort of reinforce how fortunate you are that you're not experiencing those horrible things and that there is some sort of an understanding of the worst aspects of people where it broadens your spectrum of possibilities.

01:33:09.000 I agree, but I also think that many of my favorite writers you would probably define in some sense as walking the negative side of life.

01:33:18.000 Sure.

01:33:19.000 Hunter Thompson.

01:33:20.000 Hunter Thompson or William Burroughs or, you know, Philip Roth, if you like, you know, talking about the absolute, the most kind of contemptible and disgusting impulses we feel.

01:33:32.000 Bukowski.

01:33:33.000 Oh, yeah.

01:33:34.000 You know, that's absolutely...

01:33:36.000 Rambeau, you know, the French poet.

01:33:39.000 This is sort of like...

01:33:40.000 This is who we are.

01:33:42.000 This is the stuff of life.

01:33:43.000 I think it's ineradicable.

01:33:44.000 And I think I'm suspicious of anything...

01:33:48.000 That pathologizes it too much and says, you know what, that's sort of...

01:33:53.000 Which Scientology does, in fact.

01:33:55.000 They say that's your reactive mind.

01:33:57.000 It's a malfunctioning part of your mind.

01:33:59.000 It's a pseudo-scientific thing.

01:34:00.000 Whereas, actually, Christianity, I'm not a Christian, but it sort of embraces the fact that it's just your human side.

01:34:06.000 Your human side is earthly and twisted and sexual, and actually you need to embrace some sort of higher being.

01:34:14.000 Well, I think most religions or ideologies that are trying to promote some sort of advancement, they look to the past and to the horrific nature of animal behavior, the tooth, fang,

01:34:30.000 and claw of the wild, and the recognition that somehow or another we've emerged from that and that we aspire to do better.

01:34:36.000 And then we know that in our own lives, I mean, if you look at your own life as a microcosm, You've sort of figured out what you've done wrong, hopefully, and have advanced past those days of youth and foolish behavior,

01:34:51.000 and you're now a wiser, more educated person, and you seek to continue to advance and continue to do better.

01:34:57.000 So it's sort of like it's all analogous.

01:35:00.000 It all sort of ties in together.

01:35:02.000 Now, when people go too hard with that, when people go too hard with eliminating the bad behavior, I always wonder if, like L. Ron Hubbard himself, if he was, you know, when we talk about him self-diagnosing and self-treating,

01:35:18.000 if that's what they're doing as well.

01:35:19.000 It's like, do you know that, like, there's an old expression that, well, there's an old thing that you see with women that are, what's the best way to put this? 0.98

01:35:32.000 Sexually loose, that they always like to point the finger at other girls that are sexually loose. 0.57

01:35:38.000 It's like one of the first indications that a girl might be a slut is that she likes to point at other girls, and that's a real common thing. 1.00

01:35:46.000 And I think that the things that annoy you the most about yourself, you tend to highlight those aspects when you discuss human beings or other people that irritate you. 0.75

01:35:59.000 I'm sure there's something in that.

01:36:03.000 They say, yes, my dad likes to quote, there's a Bulgarian philosopher and writer called Elias Kaneti who's had an aphorism that the thieves' hell is the fear of thieves.

01:36:15.000 So that we sort of project our qualities to others and it fills us with anxiety that they may be that.

01:36:22.000 To go to the other point, though, it would be wonderful to feel that we advance through life acquiring wisdom.

01:36:27.000 I don't know that it's necessarily the case.

01:36:30.000 And what strikes me about Hubbard is...

01:36:34.000 You know, the merit that you see in Scientology, the bits that feel workable and make sense, seem to have come out fairly early on.

01:36:41.000 And then later on, the stuff he was coming out with was more and more outlandish.

01:36:45.000 Whatever therapies he was evolving, when it went to the OT levels, it was really getting properly out there.

01:36:52.000 I mean, whether that...

01:36:56.000 Maybe he was spiraling out.

01:36:58.000 I mean, there's allegations that he...

01:37:00.000 Was fully mentally ill, at least for episodes, towards the end of his life.

01:37:06.000 Well, he spent a great deal of time.

01:37:08.000 The Sea Org was kind of concocted because he had to be in the ocean.

01:37:12.000 He had to be, first of all, away from America.

01:37:15.000 So he took to the sea.

01:37:18.000 So they didn't get prosecuted.

01:37:20.000 As I understand it, yes.

01:37:21.000 And so he had a sort of ocean-going religion where they were...

01:37:26.000 Kind of traveling around, and then for a while he was in England, and then for a while he was in what was then Rhodesia, what is now Zimbabwe, sort of trying to find a niche, like find a kind of new frontier that he could more or less make for his own kind of claim for Scientology.

01:37:40.000 But then even when he came back, he was so caught up in lawsuits in the last 10 or 15 years of his life, people pursuing him for money because they...

01:37:51.000 They felt that Scientology had made them psychotic or they just thought it was fraudulent or that they wanted their money back.

01:37:57.000 He had to disappear and was living in seclusion, more or less hiding out while money was kind of shuttled back and forth to him.

01:38:06.000 And that's why I said at the beginning that the problem with Scientology is an overabundance of material.

01:38:11.000 You probably saw The Master, right?

01:38:13.000 The Paul Thomas Anderson film.

01:38:15.000 I fell asleep.

01:38:16.000 I was watching it in a hotel room and I passed out.

01:38:18.000 It had its moments, but there's so many weird stories within Scientology.

01:38:23.000 The Master is loosely based on Scientology?

01:38:25.000 I would say it's fairly closely based on aspects of L. Ron Hubbard.

01:38:29.000 Is that public?

01:38:31.000 I mean, have they acknowledged that?

01:38:34.000 I think he had a screening for Tom Cruise, and I think he publicly said it wasn't based on L. Ron Hubbard.

01:38:42.000 What did Tom say?

01:38:43.000 I think Tom said, I don't know.

01:38:45.000 Your glib.

01:38:47.000 What do you hear about Tom?

01:38:48.000 Everyone seems to say he's a good guy.

01:38:50.000 You meet him, he's, as you say, very focused, very attentive.

01:38:57.000 I've heard several things.

01:38:58.000 One, that he's not as short as everybody says.

01:39:00.000 A lot of people want to say he's like 5'2".

01:39:02.000 Apparently he's 5'9".

01:39:04.000 That's what I've heard.

01:39:05.000 But who knows?

01:39:06.000 He could be wearing some funky stuff in his shoes.

01:39:09.000 That he's very friendly.

01:39:10.000 That he's very focused.

01:39:13.000 Very intense.

01:39:14.000 Very charming.

01:39:16.000 Very charismatic.

01:39:16.000 Very smart.

01:39:17.000 And seems to be genuinely interested in what you have to say.

01:39:23.000 I mean, I've heard the same thing.

01:39:25.000 What's your line on if Tom Cruise is interviewed on a chat show, you feel he should be asked about Scientology?

01:39:34.000 No, ask him about whatever. 0.99

01:39:36.000 I think chat shows, as you put them, they're pretty much bullshit anyway. 0.98

01:39:40.000 Because what they really are is you have a seven-minute chunk where you're supposed to be promoting some movie about a super spy that fucking repels down from the ceiling and gets past lasers. 0.99

01:39:49.000 I saw that one, yeah.

01:39:50.000 That's I mean, that's really or the other I think he's a great actor.

01:39:54.000 I love that movie.

01:39:55.000 What is it the edge of tomorrow?

01:39:57.000 Is that what it's called?

01:39:57.000 I love that movie.

01:39:58.000 That was the time travel one.

01:40:00.000 I love time travel sort of like Groundhog Day.

01:40:02.000 Yeah meets Mission Impossible.

01:40:04.000 Yeah meets Alien.

01:40:05.000 It's a great movie.

01:40:06.000 I really enjoyed it. 0.99

01:40:07.000 I think he's a great actor and I think you have to be fucking crazy to be a great actor. 0.85

01:40:11.000 He was good and you know what was nice and that was that he started out Like, in that movie, as a kind of non-Tom Cruise character. 0.95

01:40:19.000 Do you remember he's kind of cowardly and slightly weak?

01:40:22.000 And he learns in the course of the movie to become Tom Cruise.

01:40:26.000 And it felt refreshing after seeing so many kind of Cruise as ubermensch films.

01:40:32.000 Which, by the way, I think is part of Scientology as well, is that he doesn't want to take on roles that are n-theta. 0.94

01:40:40.000 Yes.

01:40:40.000 In other words...

01:40:41.000 One of the things I learned was members of the Sea Org who have taken this vow of poverty live extremely abstemious, cloistered lives, and they're not allowed to go to the movies for the most part, except when a Tom Cruise movie comes out.

01:40:54.000 So you know it better have a positive, uplifting message.

01:40:57.000 Oh, that's interesting.

01:40:59.000 Yeah, so they would literally be bussed.

01:41:01.000 I was told to the cinemas to watch the matinee performances of Tom Cruise.

01:41:05.000 Are they held back while the previews are playing?

01:41:08.000 That's a good question.

01:41:09.000 I would imagine they would have to be.

01:41:12.000 What do you think would be the worst thing they could see in probably a preview for my film?

01:41:17.000 Yeah, that would not be good.

01:41:18.000 Oh my god, how ironic.

01:41:20.000 Their eyes would drop out of their heads.

01:41:21.000 And I think that's one of the issues they have with John Travolta as well, is that he's playing a heroin addict in Pulp Fiction.

01:41:30.000 That makes sense.

01:41:31.000 I mean, he really embraces some very bizarre roles.

01:41:34.000 Yeah, he was in drag, in Hairspray. 0.79

01:41:37.000 They probably didn't love that.

01:41:39.000 Ooh, yeah.

01:41:40.000 He probably loved it, though.

01:41:41.000 He's very good.

01:41:42.000 Don't you love John Travolta, though?

01:41:44.000 He probably had a great time.

01:41:44.000 Yeah, I do.

01:41:45.000 I love him.

01:41:46.000 I think he's a great actor.

01:41:47.000 He's so good.

01:41:47.000 And don't you feel like we've been on such a journey with him?

01:41:50.000 Mm-hmm.

01:41:50.000 From Vinnie Barbarino to...

01:41:52.000 Yeah.

01:41:52.000 He's like, um...

01:41:54.000 He's a legend.

01:41:55.000 He's a fascinating character, and I met him as well when his wife was on the show, and he was very nice.

01:42:00.000 But it was that thing, you know, where he's like really engaging, looks you in the eyes, very present, you know?

01:42:06.000 You think he's gay?

01:42:07.000 Is that where we go?

01:42:08.000 People say that he's gay.

01:42:10.000 I don't know.

01:42:11.000 I have zero problem with people being gay.

01:42:15.000 But I do have a little bit of a problem with someone who's not gay, pretends that they're... 1.00

01:42:19.000 Or someone who is gay, rather. 0.87

01:42:21.000 Well, that would be a real problem. 0.95

01:42:22.000 Someone who's not gay and pretends they're gay? 0.93

01:42:24.000 That's odd. 0.98

01:42:25.000 But that's something, like, if you do gay stuff, you're just gay. 0.83

01:42:28.000 Like, even if you're not gay and you pretend and you start dating guys, like, I'm not even gay, but I'm gonna trick these dudes. 0.97

01:42:36.000 I got news for you, pal! 0.84

01:42:40.000 Could happen.

01:42:40.000 Yeah, it could happen.

01:42:42.000 It's, um, you know, it's an unfortunate aspect of- I don't know that he's pretending not- is he pretending not to be gay? 0.94

01:42:47.000 Allegedly.

01:42:48.000 That's the word.

01:42:49.000 The word is allegedly is that he's definitely not out.

01:42:52.000 So if he is gay, he's pretending to be straight. 0.99

01:42:54.000 But there's photos of him kissing men. 0.99

01:42:57.000 And, you know, there's allegedly these massage therapists that have claimed that you've tried to have sex with them.

01:43:01.000 I don't know if they're telling the truth or if they're just exploiting a possibility. 0.98

01:43:05.000 Does that make you gay if you have sex with a man? 0.99

01:43:09.000 It definitely helps. 0.99

01:43:12.000 Unless you're in prison. 0.99

01:43:14.000 Yeah, and even then you're just gay for the stay, right? 0.99

01:43:17.000 Exactly. 0.99

01:43:18.000 I don't know.

01:43:18.000 You know, I just think it's an unfortunate aspect of our society that, and this is a reality, if Tom Cruise is gay, it would be a very smart business move for him, with his business, to stay in the closet.

01:43:33.000 Because he's a leading man, and he's a leading man that has love affairs in these movies with women. 0.92

01:43:39.000 And you cannot do that if you're gay. 0.99

01:43:41.000 It's one of the weird things about being a gay person, even in today's liberated and very progressive society, that a woman can be gay, and she can play a straight woman in a movie, because no one cares. 0.53

01:43:53.000 Like, if a guy meets a girl, and she's beautiful, but she's been gay her whole life, and he turns her out, and all of a sudden she's heterosexual, and then he winds up marrying her and having children with her, Like, men get excited.

01:44:05.000 But if a woman meets a guy who's been just blowing dudes for the past 20 years, and then all of a sudden decides he's not gay anymore, they're not excited about that.

01:44:15.000 They're like, are you sure you're not gay? 1.00

01:44:16.000 Like, I don't even know how I feel about this.

01:44:19.000 We don't accept a gay person, yet at least, playing a straight man who's a leading man in a movie. 0.92

01:44:26.000 I don't think there's anyone who's been able to pull that off.

01:44:30.000 There's that one dude, Doogie Howser.

01:44:32.000 The Doogie Howser dude. 1.00

01:44:34.000 He played like a womanizer in some sitcom, but nobody's buying that bullshit. 0.99

01:44:38.000 Sean Michael Patrick or Neil Patrick Harris. 1.00

01:44:41.000 Neil Patrick Harris.

01:44:42.000 Neil Patrick Harris.

01:44:43.000 Yeah.

01:44:44.000 It's an interesting...

01:44:45.000 One of the allegations about Scientology always used to be that you spill your secrets in auditing, which is like confession, and then...

01:44:55.000 Suddenly, they're kept in a locked vault.

01:44:57.000 And if you leave, they become public.

01:44:59.000 And there's sort of a tacit blackmail going on.

01:45:04.000 So whether that's really happening now, I don't know.

01:45:08.000 That may have happened in the past, allegedly.

01:45:11.000 Well, there's an issue with them going after detractors and people that leave because it doesn't really exist in other organizations or other religions.

01:45:18.000 A perfect example of another religion that was most obviously created by a con man is Mormonism.

01:45:25.000 Joseph Smith was 14 years old when he claimed to find golden tablets that were the lost work of Jesus and that only he could read them because he had a magic seer stone.

01:45:33.000 That's right. 0.74

01:45:33.000 It's a ludicrous story. 0.74

01:45:34.000 It was a story that was created in 1820. It's such a ludicrous story that, you know, a lot of people, when they find out about it, they go, wait, wait, wait, hold on. 0.87

01:45:43.000 Like, people, like, they become Mormon, and then they get deep into it, and then they find out the roots of this, and they go, wait a minute, what the fuck? 0.99

01:45:50.000 And by the way, it's that, not Scientology, that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in America. 0.97

01:45:57.000 I wonder, well, they're nice people.

01:45:59.000 They seem very nice.

01:46:01.000 They are very nice.

01:46:02.000 I mean, whatever you sit against Mitt Romney, I'm glad he's not the president, but whenever I would see him with his family, I thought, well, you know, why can't our family be a bit more like that family?

01:46:12.000 I am not glad he's not running for president right now.

01:46:15.000 I think he's a better choice. 0.99

01:46:17.000 And I was shocked that he wasn't willing to oppose Donald Trump, because I think that that would be a fucking easy run for people that were conservative, that were uncomfortable with this Trump character and all his fucking loose dialogue and all the crazy shit that he says. 0.99

01:46:32.000 I don't think so. 0.98

01:46:33.000 I think what Trump has is, and it's why he's proved so... 0.99

01:46:39.000 So durable and popular is just this absolute, I'm different, you know, fuck everything, anti-establishment. 0.97

01:46:48.000 I think that's exactly what Romney doesn't have. 0.98

01:46:51.000 Romney looks like the consummate insider.

01:46:54.000 He's establishment, Washington, all the rest of it.

01:46:58.000 And Trump seems is a kind of caveman. 0.67

01:47:01.000 Yeah, he's a weird guy.

01:47:02.000 So, you know, the people out there, I think blue-collar kind of white Americans on the front porch see Trump and they think, yeah, that guy's my guy.

01:47:11.000 Well, they embrace the strong man. 0.99

01:47:13.000 He's a strong man who doesn't give a fuck. 0.99

01:47:15.000 He says crazy things. 1.00

01:47:16.000 He talks about how big his penis is. 1.00

01:47:17.000 I mean, the run-up to becoming the Republican nominee was one of the most embarrassing times ever for the Republican Party because you had all these fools... 1.00

01:47:28.000 Dancing around this strong man. 0.79

01:47:31.000 Robo candidates almost literally in the case of Rubio was kind of malfunctioning with his his kind of soundbite algorithm was glitching so he's coming out with the same soundbite within 10 seconds But all these robo-candidates, and then someone who seemed like a kind of visceral,

01:47:47.000 flesh-and-blood human on stage, and who, moreover, when he said stupid, crazy stuff, did not then hit the trail to apologize.

01:47:55.000 He would just keep saying weird things. 0.98

01:47:58.000 And I think people felt like, you know what, he's showing the media for the shell game that it is.

01:48:03.000 Yes.

01:48:03.000 Because he's saying, I'm not going to do that thing of like, oh, I'm so sorry I said that.

01:48:09.000 And also the old cliche about who would you want to have a beer with?

01:48:11.000 Would you want to have a beer with Romney?

01:48:13.000 First of all, Romney probably doesn't drink beer.

01:48:15.000 He doesn't drink.

01:48:16.000 And Trump actually, you would probably enjoy the kind of weird, ludicrous, just peering at him would be entertaining in itself.

01:48:25.000 Did you ever see the picture that he put up on Instagram with him in Trump Tower eating a taco bowl? 0.99

01:48:31.000 And this was after all the crazy remarks that he had said about Mexico and Mexicans coming over here and raping. 0.94

01:48:37.000 And I talked to the president of Mexico, who's going to pay for that wall? 0.99

01:48:40.000 You know, we're not going to pay for that wall.

01:48:42.000 Yeah, well, the wall just got 10 foot higher.

01:48:44.000 And everybody starts cheering.

01:48:45.000 And then he takes a photo on Instagram of him smiling, eating a taco bowl.

01:48:51.000 Look at this.

01:48:52.000 At Trump Tower.

01:48:54.000 And it says, he's got the thumbs up, he's eating this taco bowl, and it said something about, like, I love Hispanics.

01:49:02.000 Happy Cinco de Mayo.

01:49:04.000 The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill.

01:49:08.000 And then he also said, I love Hispanics.

01:49:11.000 See if you can find the actual Instagram post.

01:49:14.000 What's your actual point?

01:49:15.000 Look at this.

01:49:15.000 I love Hispanics.

01:49:18.000 That's fucking crazy. 1.00

01:49:20.000 That's fucking crazy. 1.00

01:49:21.000 I mean, I saw that. 1.00

01:49:23.000 I'm like, okay, we're being trolled.

01:49:25.000 And look at the likes.

01:49:26.000 Look at the retweets and the likes.

01:49:27.000 42,000 retweets.

01:49:30.000 But that's his genius, isn't it?

01:49:32.000 He'll say something crazy, and then ten minutes later, he'll say something contradictory.

01:49:40.000 Well, it's fun for us.

01:49:41.000 It's interesting.

01:49:43.000 It's fun for us.

01:49:44.000 And also, he doesn't necessarily represent...

01:49:47.000 For a lot of people, one of the things that Romney represents that's problematic for people is that not only is his father a Mormon, but he's from one of the most bizarre sects of Mormons, where they left the United States so that they could have multiple wives.

01:50:03.000 Who, Romney's Family?

01:50:05.000 Yeah, you don't know that?

01:50:06.000 Is that why he's in Massachusetts?

01:50:08.000 Let me hook you up, Louie.

01:50:10.000 Romney's Family.

01:50:11.000 Is it FLDS? No.

01:50:13.000 I don't know what the fuck it is, but there was a Vice piece on it. 0.99

01:50:16.000 It's a fascinating piece. 0.99

01:50:17.000 They all live in Mexico. 1.00

01:50:19.000 Okay.

01:50:20.000 Romney's family...

01:50:22.000 I know who you mean.

01:50:23.000 They moved to Mexico before Romney's dad was born.

01:50:26.000 Romney's dad was not born in the United States.

01:50:28.000 He was born in Mexico.

01:50:29.000 And when the United States made polygamy illegal, this was in the 1800s when they didn't have cars. 0.99

01:50:36.000 So people were like, well, who gives a shit if we're in the United States or Mexico? 0.99

01:50:39.000 We're still riding horses and banging our nine wives. 0.99

01:50:43.000 Let's just go over there.

01:50:44.000 Yeah.

01:50:44.000 So they didn't want to give up the polygamy aspect of the religion.

01:50:47.000 So they just went south to Mexico, which was not that much different than the United States back then.

01:50:52.000 Then, when cars were invented and the United States really exploded and became much more prosperous than Mexico, then ultimately it got even crazier when they got involved in the drug war.

01:51:04.000 The drug war, where there was drug cartel people were Kidnapping people in the Romney family and other Mormons that are living down there.

01:51:13.000 So they started like being, they had armed guards on sentry 24 hours.

01:51:17.000 I mean, it's like a scene from The Walking Dead.

01:51:19.000 They're all standing there with high-powered rifles.

01:51:21.000 We're talking when?

01:51:22.000 Right now!

01:51:23.000 Wait, so Romney's family is still down there?

01:51:25.000 Yes, yes!

01:51:27.000 Oh my goodness.

01:51:27.000 Oh, it's amazing.

01:51:28.000 Right now.

01:51:29.000 Well, Romney was born in the United States.

01:51:31.000 It's the Mexican-Mormon War, and it's a Vice series, and it is wonderful.

01:51:36.000 Because this is something that, for whatever reason, was not really discussed during the campaign trail.

01:51:42.000 I think they tried to keep this...

01:51:44.000 Because I think they thought it would be incredibly damaging to the Republican Party because this guy is the frontrunner for the Republicans. 0.97

01:51:50.000 And I don't know who the fuck on the Democratic side agreed to not really get into this. 0.97

01:51:55.000 But that means they're not just a part of a cult. 0.99

01:51:57.000 They're a part of a gun-toting, polygamous cult that has an armed compound in Mexico. 0.75

01:52:04.000 How do I not know this?

01:52:06.000 Well, that's why Romney's dad wanted to be president, but could not run for president because he was born in Mexico.

01:52:13.000 He came out of his mother's body in the wrong patch of dirt, so we did not allow him to run our great nation. 1.00

01:52:20.000 Isn't that amazing?

01:52:21.000 It's amazing.

01:52:22.000 Did he become a senator?

01:52:24.000 I do not remember.

01:52:25.000 He was involved in politics in some way.

01:52:28.000 Ted Cruz was born in Canada, though, right?

01:52:30.000 Yes, he is.

01:52:31.000 So did they change the rules? 0.98

01:52:32.000 Dirty Canadian. 1.00

01:52:33.000 He's not one of us. 0.99

01:52:34.000 I love Canadians.

01:52:35.000 I'm kidding.

01:52:36.000 Did they change the rules?

01:52:38.000 No, because he has dual citizenship because his mother was something.

01:52:43.000 So you can be born...

01:52:44.000 Yes.

01:52:45.000 Like my friend Brian was born in the Philippines, but he's American because he was born on a military base.

01:52:49.000 No, you can be American, but he was going to be, I mean, but can he be president and not born in the U.S.? Well, in my book, no, because he was not given the God-given right to be born in the right patch of dirt, so fuck him. 1.00

01:53:04.000 That's in my book. 1.00

01:53:06.000 But constitution...

01:53:07.000 Well, that was something that Donald Trump was bringing up.

01:53:09.000 Well, by the way, people do forget, conveniently, that Donald Trump was one of the primary birthers.

01:53:14.000 He was one of the biggest proponents of the idea that Obama was not born in America, that he was born in Kenya.

01:53:21.000 Do you remember that?

01:53:22.000 That was a big issue.

01:53:23.000 Oh, yeah, big time.

01:53:24.000 Huge.

01:53:24.000 I mean, he still is propounding absolutely fringe conspiracy nut beliefs about, you know, he said that Obama founded ISIS, right?

01:53:34.000 Yeah.

01:53:34.000 At a rally in Florida.

01:53:36.000 Did he find ISIS? Founded ISIS. That Obama had started ISIS. But did he decide to say this at a rally in Florida?

01:53:45.000 Or did Obama found ISIS in a rally in Florida?

01:53:50.000 Oh, I think he said it at the rally.

01:53:52.000 I think he said that Obama founded it in Wrecker.

01:53:56.000 Let me hear this.

01:53:58.000 Let's hear this.

01:53:59.000 All over the Middle East.

01:54:01.000 And it was a terrible mistake.

01:54:04.000 And then Obama came in, and normally you want to clean up?

01:54:09.000 He made a bigger mess out of it.

01:54:11.000 He made such a mess.

01:54:12.000 And then you had Hillary with Libya? 0.58

01:54:16.000 So sad.

01:54:18.000 In fact, in many respects, you know, they honor President Obama.

01:54:27.000 ISIS is honoring President Obama.

01:54:31.000 He is the founder of ISIS. He's the founder of ISIS. He's the founder. 0.99

01:54:38.000 He said it three times. 1.00

01:54:39.000 And they're fucking cheering. 1.00

01:54:41.000 He founded ISIS. Four times. 1.00

01:54:42.000 And I would say the co-founder would be Crooked Hillary Clinton. 1.00

01:54:50.000 It makes you wonder if he knows what the word found means. 0.99

01:54:54.000 He doesn't give a fuck. 0.99

01:54:55.000 Do you know what I mean? 0.99

01:54:56.000 He's a pro wrestling candidate.

01:54:57.000 I had a bit about this in like 2005. I had a bit about George Bush and that he was so dumb that I don't think that he was really the candidate that the Republicans like the best candidate they could have. 0.95

01:55:12.000 I think he was a test to find out how dumb people are. 0.99

01:55:14.000 Because there's only one way to tell. 1.00

01:55:16.000 The people, the bankers, the industrialists, they don't really know how dumb Americans are. 0.99

01:55:21.000 They know about pop culture. 0.99

01:55:22.000 They know what people like.

01:55:23.000 And there was only one way to find out. 1.00

01:55:26.000 You put a dumb guy in office, and you see how people react. 0.99

01:55:30.000 And that at the end of the first year, when he won again, or the first term when he won again, I think they were sitting around going, I think we can go dumber. 1.00

01:55:40.000 And they just decided to get some fucking pro wrestling type president. 0.97

01:55:47.000 Some dude who's like a combination of like a drill sergeant and a pro wrestler who just, you know, you just go to Ted Nugent concerts and scoop people up with nets and you just set them up. 0.99

01:55:58.000 And that this is kind of what he is.

01:56:01.000 I mean, you watch that.

01:56:02.000 That is like, even the way the audience is yelling along and cheering, it's theatrical.

01:56:08.000 This is all like a parade.

01:56:10.000 It's theater.

01:56:11.000 They don't necessarily think that Obama really founded ISIS. They don't care if he did or not.

01:56:19.000 There's no thinking there.

01:56:20.000 There's a box that they operate on.

01:56:22.000 It's a very small box.

01:56:24.000 They operate.

01:56:25.000 All their thoughts exist inside this box.

01:56:27.000 And they never expand.

01:56:29.000 There's no nuance.

01:56:30.000 There's no subtlety.

01:56:31.000 There's no broad spectrum.

01:56:33.000 There's no big picture.

01:56:35.000 There's none of that.

01:56:36.000 It's just... 1.00

01:56:38.000 Assholes have their king. 1.00

01:56:39.000 We have a lot of assholes. 1.00

01:56:41.000 It's really easy to survive. 1.00

01:56:42.000 It's real easy to have kids.

01:56:45.000 But you can't have thought...

01:56:46.000 When this started, you couldn't have thought that this would get this far.

01:56:50.000 No.

01:56:50.000 Like, this seemed like a joke to begin with.

01:56:53.000 Yeah.

01:56:54.000 I thought somewhere along the line, cooler heads would prevail.

01:56:57.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:56:59.000 But I'm torn because as a comedian, you know, I mean, this is a fucking goldmine. 0.98

01:57:05.000 They're about to open up a dam of gold. 0.98

01:57:08.000 They're going to break down the dam and gold is going to flow down.

01:57:12.000 It's going to be amazing.

01:57:12.000 But as a human being, this could literally lead to the end of civilization.

01:57:17.000 I mean...

01:57:19.000 As myself, as a sort of student of self-sabotage and the bizarre abysms of the human condition, do you know what I mean?

01:57:29.000 I find it fascinating.

01:57:31.000 You know, it could be the end of the world, but you just see things happening that absolutely are unprecedented.

01:57:39.000 And I have a kind of chaos...

01:57:42.000 A chaotic streak that enjoys—it's like that feeling you get in the playground as a kid when a fight breaks out.

01:57:49.000 Fight, fight, fight.

01:57:50.000 You just sort of—it's almost an arsonist's thrill of seeing civilization burn.

01:57:55.000 Something's going to happen.

01:57:56.000 Something crazy is going to happen.

01:57:57.000 It's not business as usual.

01:57:58.000 And here's another thing that I like about it.

01:58:00.000 There's a lot of things that he says that are absolutely true.

01:58:03.000 And here's one of the things that I like about what Trump represents. 0.99

01:58:06.000 He is not the political establishment, and the political establishment sucks. 1.00

01:58:10.000 It really does suck. 1.00

01:58:11.000 It is a corrupt, completely corrupt institution. 1.00

01:58:15.000 And what he's saying about crooked Hillary, I agree.

01:58:18.000 Look, if you look at the Clinton Foundation, you look at what they've been able to do and the laws they've been able to skirt and the amount of influence they're able to have and the amount of money that they're able to generate and where that money goes and how ambiguous it is and how that hasn't been investigated, he's right.

01:58:33.000 He's right in a lot of ways.

01:58:34.000 So I hope that a lot of what he's doing is theatrics, and if he does wind up winning, I hope that he puts around him some real political advisors that understand international policy, and he tones everything down at this result.

01:58:48.000 That's like the ultimate hope, right?

01:58:50.000 I don't necessarily think it's true.

01:58:52.000 Well, I hope that he loses, personally.

01:58:54.000 But do you hope that Hillary wins?

01:58:55.000 Because I hope that she doesn't win either.

01:58:57.000 Well, I don't see Jill Stein winning.

01:59:00.000 I mean, I think it's either...

01:59:01.000 What about Gary Johnson?

01:59:02.000 Who is Gary Johnson?

01:59:04.000 How dare you?

01:59:05.000 Well, he's an independent.

01:59:07.000 Gary Johnson's the libertarian candidate.

01:59:10.000 He's a very reasonable guy.

01:59:11.000 I thought Weld was the libertarian candidate.

01:59:13.000 No.

01:59:14.000 Is Johnson with Weld?

01:59:15.000 Is Weld the vice?

01:59:18.000 We're going to find out.

01:59:19.000 Between Hillary and Trump, you would go...

01:59:26.000 No.

01:59:27.000 No.

01:59:28.000 I would go asteroid. 0.97

01:59:30.000 I hope an asteroid hits. 0.88

01:59:31.000 You'd go Hubbard.

01:59:34.000 OT3. I don't like either one of them.

01:59:36.000 I'm in a bad place.

01:59:37.000 I agree with what you said about it took an orange-haired casino magnate with pathological lying issues to point out the truth about the brokenness of the American.

01:59:49.000 Yeah, Gary Johnson and Bill Weld.

01:59:50.000 Bill Weld is his vice president.

01:59:52.000 I think...

01:59:54.000 We're in a bad place with either one of them, because either one of them are exposing the ridiculous aspects of our society and the ridiculous aspects of our political establishment, our political system. 0.65

02:00:06.000 It's just not a good system.

02:00:07.000 Representative government doesn't make any sense when people can represent themselves.

02:00:10.000 It made sense back when it was impossible to get word to Washington how all these people felt.

02:00:16.000 But now that people... 1.00

02:00:19.000 You're almost saying, by continuing representative government in 2016, you're almost saying that, well, you can't have one person, one vote, because people are too fucking stupid for that. 1.00

02:00:30.000 I mean, you're almost saying that. 1.00

02:00:31.000 Well, maybe they are.

02:00:32.000 Are they?

02:00:33.000 And if that's the case, we need to fix that instead of just continuing business as usual.

02:00:38.000 We need to figure out how to expand our educational system or enlighten some of these people, maybe drop mushrooms everywhere or something.

02:00:45.000 There's got to be a better way than just continuing business as usual when that business has been shown, at least in Hillary Clinton's case, to be completely corrupt. 1.00

02:00:54.000 How would you rate Obama?

02:00:58.000 I like him as a human.

02:00:59.000 What I like about Obama is he's measured, he's intelligent, and I think there's one thing that has to be said.

02:01:05.000 I mean, as much as when you look at politics, you look at someone who's running the president, there's a lot of speculation.

02:01:10.000 How much power does he have?

02:01:11.000 What is it like behind closed doors?

02:01:13.000 What are those meetings like?

02:01:15.000 Sam Harris is an interesting point.

02:01:17.000 He's like, is Obama a guy who is lying all along or When he was running for president and then gets in office and does different things like keeps Guantanamo Bay open and doesn't leave Iraq and all the different things that he sort of reneged on?

02:01:31.000 Or is it that you become president and then you are briefed and then someone sits down and explains to you the horrific nature of the outside world and here are the threats to civilization itself, here are the threats In terms of terrorism, in terms of these different dictatorships that are seeking to gain nuclear arms,

02:01:51.000 and here's some real problems, and here's the strategies, and here's what we have to do, and here's why we can't do what you promised.

02:01:56.000 There's that, too.

02:01:57.000 I don't know.

02:01:57.000 We don't know.

02:01:58.000 But what Obama does represent, and here's what trickles down, is as a man, he's very measured, he's very intelligent, He's very articulate.

02:02:09.000 He doesn't lose his cool.

02:02:11.000 He doesn't respond to nonsense.

02:02:14.000 And the speeches that he gives, they're a great representative of education, of dignity, of a guy who speaks very well, and a guy who is smarter than most people that you know.

02:02:28.000 I think there's something to be said for that.

02:02:31.000 And I think that that is what George Bush wasn't.

02:02:33.000 And that was what was appealing to me about Obama. 0.90

02:02:36.000 But, you know, but Eve bullshits too, you know? 1.00

02:02:39.000 So it's like, at what point in time do you get to speak your mind?

02:02:43.000 Do you ever?

02:02:44.000 Do you ever get to say what you really think?

02:02:46.000 And if that's what he really thinks, if that's who he really is...

02:02:50.000 When you're a politician, you are almost required to try to play this game of not pissing people off over expressing your true feelings on things.

02:03:02.000 Like, you've got to kind of play it as much down the middle.

02:03:05.000 You know that there's going to be a bunch of people on this side that are going to hate you, there's going to be a bunch of people on that side that don't think you're going far enough, but you shoot down the middle and you get the best results.

02:03:15.000 It's almost like pretending to be someone who you're not to try to pick people up at a bar. 1.00

02:03:20.000 It's a bullshit act. 0.99

02:03:21.000 And that's what politicians are. 1.00

02:03:23.000 They're bullshitters. 1.00

02:03:24.000 They're really good at bullshitting. 1.00

02:03:26.000 What's bizarre about Trump is that he's not doing that.

02:03:29.000 That this is who he is.

02:03:31.000 I think that's true, I think. 0.99

02:03:34.000 But to go to your point about whether people are stupid or not, I think that's an unkind way of phrasing it. 0.98

02:03:40.000 I'm an unkind dude. 0.99

02:03:41.000 But actually, we have jobs to do and to be informed on all the subjects you would need to be informed on.

02:03:49.000 To make the right decisions to run the country, no one has the time.

02:03:54.000 That's a very good point.

02:03:54.000 We need people to specialize in these things.

02:03:57.000 And it's like Brexit was a triumph in the UK when it was put to the vote, this massive decision on whether to be part of the EU. No one in that space of time as a member of the electorate We're good to go.

02:04:14.000 We're good to go.

02:04:25.000 To be seen, whether or not it's ultimately disastrous.

02:04:28.000 My friend Steve Hilton, who's a very bright guy, who's been on this podcast before, he was David Cameron's right-hand man, he actually is a supporter of Brexit.

02:04:36.000 That's one of the things that he had a problem with Cameron over.

02:04:39.000 They had a falling out.

02:04:40.000 I want to talk to him, sit down with him.

02:04:42.000 I don't know enough of it.

02:04:43.000 I don't really follow any politics.

02:04:44.000 I barely follow the United States. 0.98

02:04:46.000 I didn't know what the fuck Brexit was until it was going down and everybody was saying it was the end of the world. 0.99

02:04:51.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:04:52.000 I mean, I agree.

02:04:53.000 Like, I feel as though it's easy to go along with the groupthink, but I was in favor of staying in Europe.

02:05:03.000 Well, when I'm talking about representative government, what I'm talking about is like this electoral college set up and the one person, one vote set up and the idea that 300 plus million people are going to be represented by just a handful of people that are representing states.

02:05:20.000 Yeah, and the way in which Bernie Sanders was marginalized, I think, and likewise, in a way, the fact that Trump could run away with it, I mean, it's just fascinating how he managed to overturn the apple cart.

02:05:33.000 I haven't really grappled with the minutiae of how US democracy works, but it seems to me like it's a really bizarre, arcane system with the delegates and whatnot.

02:05:44.000 Who came up with that?

02:05:45.000 Well, they came up with it back when there was no communication.

02:05:48.000 They came up with it back when you had to take a horse and you had to carry a handwritten letter across the country to communicate with people.

02:05:55.000 And that was just ineffective.

02:05:57.000 They had to figure out how to have people in your various states and various counties and various districts represent the greater good of the people and also have the ability to decide over the rest of the people.

02:06:09.000 That's one of the things that people don't even realize.

02:06:11.000 In representative government, when you have this one person who represents a group of the people, if the group of the people decides to vote for Hillary Clinton, that one person doesn't have to agree with that.

02:06:20.000 It's a weird, funky system.

02:06:22.000 It's really weird.

02:06:23.000 And it's designed for back when people were illiterate. 0.97

02:06:26.000 And there's a bunch of farmers and pilgrims and savages that came over from Europe on rafts and made it to America and just fucking have at it.

02:06:35.000 And they're trying to manage this and trying to figure out how to take the founding fathers' ideas and best keep it all together while they're exploring this whole new world and dealing with Governing these people that were literally thousands of miles away that you couldn't even reach.

02:06:55.000 We can do that now.

02:06:56.000 I mean instantaneously someone can send a Facebook message, they can send an email, they can tweet.

02:07:01.000 You can find out what people's opinions are.

02:07:03.000 But then it becomes whether or not these people are qualified to decide which direction the country goes.

02:07:10.000 Well if they're not qualified, we should probably figure out what the fuck we can do to make people more aware of what are the consequences of all these different decisions that are going to be made by our politicians.

02:07:22.000 Because There's a lot of stuff that gets made when it comes to disastrous implications for the environment. 0.85

02:07:28.000 I mean, when Obama was in office, he set so much in order or so much in motion that environmentalists and people that are against offshore drilling, I mean, there's a lot of fracking and offshore drilling and all sorts of things that could potentially have disastrous implications that were set forth by him that no one had any say in.

02:07:53.000 No person in America that was just a regular citizen had any say in these major decisions.

02:07:59.000 Like, you know, Mark Ruffalo just tweeted something about all the different offshore oil rigs that Obama had agreed to while he was in office, and it's disturbing.

02:08:11.000 Really?

02:08:11.000 That's interesting.

02:08:12.000 I have to say, as someone who resides in the UK and who's more used to the British system, the biggest shock when you come over here is during the election cycle, the amount of money that gets spent and the length of the campaigns.

02:08:26.000 And for all its flaws, in Britain, there's a cap on how much they can spend on their campaigns.

02:08:31.000 So they have like one or two TV ads each.

02:08:34.000 And then a couple of posters.

02:08:36.000 But they do not do anything on the scale of what happens here.

02:08:40.000 And the amount of money that gets spent here is just insane.

02:08:43.000 So it does seem it has all the hallmarks of a broken system, I would say.

02:08:47.000 Well, not only that, there's two recognized parties.

02:08:50.000 And anything else, you're throwing your vote away.

02:08:52.000 That's the implication.

02:08:53.000 That's how people think.

02:08:55.000 And, you know, Tom Rhodes, a friend of mine, he lived in Holland for quite a while.

02:09:01.000 And he was talking about the variety of candidates to choose from in Holland.

02:09:06.000 And now they just have so many different people.

02:09:08.000 They have conservative liberals.

02:09:10.000 They have conservative Green Party candidates.

02:09:12.000 They have liberal Green Party candidates.

02:09:14.000 They have...

02:09:14.000 I mean, it just goes across this just wide range of different philosophies on how to govern and people get a better sense of, you know, what they would like or what they agree with most.

02:09:27.000 Because this hard line right and hard line left and this rigid ideology that you have to subscribe to on both sides. 0.99

02:09:34.000 If you're on the right, you don't support gay marriage, you're anti-abortion, you're this, you're that, you want gun rights, you want this, you know, fuck immigration. 0.98

02:09:43.000 You know, there's all this stuff that you have to kind of agree to if you agree to the right. 0.95

02:09:47.000 And then on the left, you have to agree to a lot of things that people, you know, not necessarily agree as well.

02:09:54.000 So it's so complicated to have a two-party system and try to pretend that there is a real democracy.

02:10:01.000 And it's not really a democracy.

02:10:03.000 No, no.

02:10:04.000 Yeah, I mean, that's for sure.

02:10:06.000 Do you think Trump's got a chance of winning?

02:10:08.000 Yes, I do.

02:10:09.000 Especially if people find out what Hillary has really been involved in. 1.00

02:10:14.000 I mean, if they really start hammering that, like, we have a few months to go.

02:10:17.000 It's only August.

02:10:18.000 We have to go through all of September, all of October, and then November.

02:10:23.000 That's a lot of time. 1.00

02:10:24.000 And in that time, crazy shit can come out. 0.99

02:10:26.000 And it seems, I mean, I've read in the LA Times that he's already on a mini-rebound based on this semi-apology he delivered last week, and that if he could tone it down a couple of notches and just sort of appeal to a few more women and just seem a little bit less insane, 0.99

02:10:43.000 he will climb in the poll numbers.

02:10:45.000 He could do it.

02:10:46.000 Well, she's under two criminal investigations, and there's also plenty of video out there where there's a direct contradiction between what the FBI has said they were investigating what she was guilty of, and then what she has said they said.

02:10:58.000 So she's not honest.

02:10:59.000 She's just not.

02:11:01.000 I mean, it's pretty clear when you compare...

02:11:04.000 Many things to what she said versus the actual facts.

02:11:08.000 She's a lawyer. 0.86

02:11:09.000 She's a lawyer who became a politician.

02:11:11.000 She's a career politician. 0.99

02:11:13.000 She knows what to do.

02:11:14.000 She's got Teflon in her DNA, and she keeps plowing forward no matter what. 1.00

02:11:19.000 She doesn't do interviews. 0.93

02:11:19.000 She's not doing any of these rallies. 0.93

02:11:22.000 She's just going forward, and it's very bizarre.

02:11:25.000 There's also a lot of questions.

02:11:26.000 I mean, Dr. Drew did some big thing the other day talking about her health because, you know, she had fallen down in 2012, and apparently, like, Mm-hmm.

02:11:49.000 And so who knows how much of her behavior, because traumatic brain injuries are really significant when it comes to the way your brain works post-injury, the way you behave, impulsive behavior, aggression.

02:12:04.000 I made a program on that subject.

02:12:06.000 Did you?

02:12:06.000 Yeah, last year.

02:12:07.000 What was it about?

02:12:08.000 It was called A Different Brain, and it was set in a brain injury rehabilitation clinic in the UK, and it was basically about serious personality changes in the wake of a traumatic brain injury.

02:12:21.000 As you say, impulsivity, sometimes a lack of empathy, erratic behavior, and it was about people, you know, inevitably it's about the relationships that they're in and the way in which people have to adapt around to the new needs.

02:12:37.000 And, you know, yeah, it's unbelievable stuff.

02:12:41.000 I mean, you know better than anyone from your sports kind of interest that post-boxing, post-NFL, post-hockey, if you're a fighter in hockey, and pro-wrestling too.

02:12:53.000 There's been several terrific documentaries, one by Steve James called Head Games.

02:12:59.000 And a few others that all examine...

02:13:01.000 I mean, the levels of erratic behaviour after an NFL career are unreal.

02:13:07.000 Whether it's divorce, bankruptcy, suicide, or serious depression, it's off the charts.

02:13:14.000 Yeah, I've seen it firsthand.

02:13:16.000 I've seen it firsthand from friends who became erratic and became really unstable after getting beat a few times in mixed martial arts fights.

02:13:25.000 I've seen it from boxers, people that I knew when I was young, and then I met them 10-15 years later, and their life was a mess. 0.94

02:13:31.000 They become alcoholics.

02:13:33.000 Huge issue with their endocrine system and they supplement with alcohol and drugs to try to self-medicate.

02:13:40.000 It becomes a real problem.

02:13:42.000 I mean, the brain is very fragile.

02:13:44.000 It's connected with this very, very soft connective tissue that keeps it in place inside the head.

02:13:50.000 It's just not meant to be hit that much.

02:13:53.000 You know you're meant to like survive a few bumps and bruises and that's what it's kind of designed for and anything else especially prolonged continued abuse like that can have dire consequences or one significant injury can have dire consequences.

02:14:08.000 One significant one can be life-changing, or in the sports context, two concussions, I'm sure you know, back-to-back within a single sort of space of time, like one game.

02:14:17.000 You know, the first one's not good, but the second one is cataclysmic.

02:14:20.000 Yes, and it happens a lot of times where people deny the first concussion, and they go right back to playing football, or they go right back to sparring.

02:14:27.000 It's a huge issue.

02:14:28.000 You think Hillary may have a TBI, a traumatic brain injury?

02:14:34.000 Well, I'm no doctor, obviously, but she definitely had a traumatic brain injury.

02:14:39.000 She fell, and she had a blood clot on her brain.

02:14:41.000 I mean, this is all open public record, the diagnosis.

02:14:44.000 When you have a blood clot on your brain at 60-something years of age, that is incredibly dangerous.

02:14:50.000 It's really bad.

02:14:51.000 And then you have to address, like, what made her pass out in the first place?

02:14:54.000 Like, what made her black out when she fell down and hit her head?

02:14:57.000 That's not good.

02:14:58.000 I think what we really need in this country is, like, some...

02:15:04.000 Altruistic Elon Musk type character.

02:15:07.000 A real genius.

02:15:08.000 Someone who's like a really brilliant person who sees the state the country's in and offers some intelligent, well thought out solutions.

02:15:17.000 That doesn't exist because those people are too busy doing whatever they're doing.

02:15:21.000 So what we're left with is career politicians and then this madman who's a reality TV star, you know, a casino man.

02:15:29.000 I don't think that our system is good.

02:15:32.000 I think it's very archaic.

02:15:34.000 I think it's just not the best we can do.

02:15:37.000 And I think we're just going to continue to use it until it blows up in our face. 0.97

02:15:41.000 It's like instead of redesigning cars, we've got some Model T, and we keep adding turbochargers to it and fucking bigger wheels. 0.88

02:15:49.000 And someone says, hey, man, I think we can make a better car. 1.00

02:15:51.000 Fuck that! 1.00

02:15:52.000 This is our car! 1.00

02:15:53.000 USA! USA! USA! They keep just slapping bolts and fucking rivets and screwing this thing in place and it's not good.

02:16:02.000 It's not a good system and it's not the best we can do. 0.94

02:16:04.000 It's certainly not ideal.

02:16:05.000 And I think human beings in all areas of life other than our political system, we have advanced radically since the 1700s.

02:16:13.000 If you look at the way we approach education, if you look at our ability to communicate with each other, if you look at technology, the innovation, and the constant expanding of our horizons and possibilities as far as what we're capable of with technology, all those things have radically improved since then.

02:16:30.000 But we still have this goofy system that was created back when people rode horses, wrote with feathers, and when you wanted to picture something, you had to draw it. 0.95

02:16:39.000 I mean, that is dumb.

02:16:41.000 But that's great because that's a great metaphor for the human brain in a way and kind of a big thought to carry as we sort of draw to the close of our interview. 0.98

02:16:50.000 But, you know, because the brain, you know, our brains are hinged around the innermost parts of our brain, the amygdala, which is essentially reptilian in origin, you know.

02:17:01.000 And so many of our deepest impulses, the sort of fear response and so forth, are programmed from a kind of evolutionary heritage.

02:17:10.000 You know we've got neuro circuits that go back thousands if not millions of years and you know that metaphor you use to describe our political system of being an old jalopy that's been turbocharged is in essence what our brains are and you know as much as it would be lovely to believe that technology and our ability to control nature and control our environment had been hand in hand with sort of a moral and civilizational You could deduce maybe as many examples that

02:17:40.000 suggest that all it's done is allowed us to do everything, whether for good or ill, more efficiently and more effectively.

02:17:47.000 So we can help more people.

02:17:49.000 We can blow more people up.

02:17:50.000 You can drive faster, but you can drive faster away from a crime.

02:17:54.000 Do you know what I mean?

02:17:54.000 So I don't hold out any huge hope that there will be a positive change.

02:18:03.000 Really?

02:18:04.000 See, I think that...

02:18:04.000 I mean, I might be wrong.

02:18:05.000 Sometimes I read things that persuade me otherwise.

02:18:07.000 I think that we're more advanced and more safe now than ever before.

02:18:11.000 I think if you look back on 2,000 years ago and you look at today, which is a blink in the eye in terms of the age of the Earth, it's infinitely better to live today than it is then.

02:18:19.000 Certainly here in America or in the West, but, you know, in a globe with six, what is it, six billion?

02:18:25.000 I think it's seven.

02:18:26.000 If you were dropped at random on Earth, Where would you where I mean chances are you wouldn't be Joe Rogan you would probably be what I don't what would you probably be?

02:18:36.000 Well, there's certainly horrible places working, you know making Apple phones in a factory you could be or you could be in China living in some skyrise being some multi billionaire Cell phone magnate.

02:18:49.000 Who the hell knows?

02:18:51.000 You know, I mean, there's certainly some wonderful spots in the world outside of America.

02:18:55.000 There's certainly some great places to live.

02:18:57.000 Even if you live in poverty, you could live a wonderful, happy life that's way safer than it would be thousands and thousands of years ago.

02:19:05.000 The Internet is pretty much worldwide.

02:19:07.000 Cell phones are pretty much available everywhere now, and so I think that access to communication is going to change the way people view the world because they're gonna have more data to choose from.

02:19:17.000 They're gonna have more cherry-picking that they can do.

02:19:20.000 They can certainly have more confirmation bias and stick to their own group like we're talking about with Scientologists who don't go on the internet, don't take any suppressive information, don't watch any videos, and I think I think what I'd like about your approach and what I like about what you're saying when it comes to Scientology is that you're not a mean person. 0.97

02:19:40.000 You're not like mocking them and you don't want to shit on them.

02:19:42.000 What you want to do is you want to look at them for what they really are and try to get a really good understanding of it. 0.83

02:19:49.000 One of my favorite parts of the trailer was that guy filming you and you're filming him and you go, are you making a documentary too?

02:19:56.000 Well, and that's it, isn't it?

02:19:58.000 Because you don't want to, you know, if I can quote Nietzsche, which is kind of a sophomoric thing to do, but it's the idea of like, you don't, when you, when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks also into you.

02:20:08.000 Like, when you fight monsters, don't become a monster.

02:20:11.000 And I don't want to, they're bullies in many cases, and I didn't want to bully them back, and I didn't want to be trapped into a paradigm of us against them.

02:20:20.000 And I was really trying to say, look, let's keep, I don't want, I don't, I want to see the human in you.

02:20:25.000 Yes.

02:20:26.000 Not just an agent for an oppressive regime.

02:20:29.000 I think that's beautiful.

02:20:29.000 I really do.

02:20:30.000 And I think that is a very measured and intelligent and wise way to approach this.

02:20:35.000 And I've enjoyed that about your other videos as well.

02:20:38.000 I think in that sense, you're very unique in the way you approach documentary filmmaking.

02:20:43.000 And I think the Scientologists, they're not our enemies.

02:20:47.000 And the gentleman who left, who's the number two guy, what was his name again?

02:20:50.000 Marty Rathbun.

02:20:51.000 Look, he's a perfect example of that.

02:20:52.000 You're talking about a guy who was in it for two-plus decades. 1.00

02:20:55.000 He left, and he's sort of coming clean about all the stupid shit that he did when he was in there. 0.99

02:21:00.000 People become a prisoner of their earliest ideology, the earliest ideology that they adopt. 1.00

02:21:07.000 And that's one of the problems with any sort of a groupthink, whether it's a cult, a religion, whatever the fuck you want to call it.

02:21:14.000 Ideologies become problematic when you can't escape.

02:21:17.000 You can't vary.

02:21:18.000 You have to stick to the dogma.

02:21:20.000 You have to stick to the doctrine.

02:21:23.000 And that's not good for people.

02:21:25.000 It's not healthy.

02:21:26.000 It's not smart.

02:21:27.000 Because I think the ability to communicate and open debate is why we've advanced to the point we're at in the first place.

02:21:34.000 The suppressing of that is almost always someone who has a bad idea that they're trying to shelter.

02:21:39.000 So when you see people that are chasing after someone because they're trying to communicate about something, like you, who's doing it super respectfully, when you see that, what you have is a bunch of people that are trying to defend a bad idea and defend it with aggression.

02:21:55.000 That's exactly right.

02:21:56.000 But if the more you kind of...

02:21:58.000 Welcome to my show!

02:22:16.000 What short-circuits their beliefs, what allows them to see something bigger than what they're in is when you treat them with kindness.

02:22:24.000 And instead of shouting back at them or hurling abuse back, which just reinforces their view of you as an enemy of God or suppressive or however they characterize it, if you actually behave decently in an attempt to Robustly present your position,

02:22:41.000 but in a respectful way.

02:22:42.000 And coming from a place of caring and empathy, as opposed to a censorious or hostile attitude, that actually can be much more effective.

02:22:54.000 Absolutely.

02:22:54.000 As well as being humane.

02:22:56.000 Kudos to you, sir.

02:22:58.000 Oh, thanks.

02:22:59.000 I'm a big fan.

02:22:59.000 I really am.

02:23:00.000 I really appreciate you coming back here.

02:23:02.000 And I'd love to have you back before the documentary comes out, which is in January.

02:23:06.000 And hopefully by then, the Scientologists have wised up and they've let you go.

02:23:11.000 Maybe their film will be out and we can plug their documentary.

02:23:15.000 Yeah, we will.

02:23:16.000 Maybe their film is going to say, Louie's a really great guy.

02:23:18.000 Yeah.

02:23:19.000 We investigated it.

02:23:21.000 We found out he really practices what he preaches, and we're sorry.

02:23:24.000 I don't think it will be, but we'll see.

02:23:26.000 All right, folks.

02:23:27.000 We'll be back in just a little bit with Hannibal Buress.

02:23:30.000 He'll be back at 5 o'clock, which is an hour from now.

02:23:33.000 So until then, enjoy yourself.

The Joe Rogan Experience - August 22, 2016

Joe Rogan Experience #835 - Louis Theroux

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