00:00:00.000They're going to look into getting the authorities to try to force the Catholic Church to change its ordination processes, who can be ordained and not.
00:00:07.440And they are explicitly citing, as reason for this, his recognition of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Mullaly.
00:00:16.460And we're joined again by Anthony Stein from Return to Tradition.
00:00:20.420Thank you for joining us again, Anthony. God bless you.
00:00:22.600Bless you, and thank you for having me on again.
00:00:24.120Let's begin as we always do with the sign of the cross.
00:00:25.780In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:00:31.720So you recently took up this meeting that Leo had with Sarah Mullally, the head of the Anglican Church.
00:00:40.440Not so much because of the scandal of it in and of itself, which of course you addressed as well,
00:00:45.460but also because of the legal challenge that might stem from us. Tell us about that.
00:00:50.280Some of us had warned that by meeting with Sarah Mullaly, the Archbishop of Canterbury, that he was giving a signal of being permissive towards the entire women's ordination movement, that it would be allowing this issue to continue festering and adding fuel to the fire for it.
00:01:08.420Because when he met with her, he seemed to confirm her consecration by treating her as if she was an archbishop.
00:01:16.300He accepted her public blessings and addressed her in the way that one addresses a bishop.
00:01:25.900And in doing so, it's a confirmation of her office.
00:01:30.860What none of us really thought was that the secular authorities were going to be watching all of this.
00:01:36.780Because now there are activist groups in the European Union, and especially France, who are calling the Catholic Church's ordinations of men only, this practice of only ordaining men that goes all the way back to our blessed Lord, calling it gender discrimination.
00:01:56.580And they're going to look into getting the authorities to try to force the Catholic Church to change its ordination processes, who can be ordained and not.
00:02:06.940And they are explicitly citing, as reason for this, his recognition of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Mullally.
00:02:16.080I guess the logic is he recognizes her as a bishop, yet he won't ordain women in the Catholic Church.
00:04:43.320But explicitly, the EU says that their gender equality laws apply to religious institutions.
00:04:50.520And this goes back to the fact that while most European countries talk about freedom
00:04:55.580of religion, they don't understand it in the same way that Americans do.
00:04:59.580And I'm not, as a traditional Catholic, endorsing the American view of freedom of religion.
00:05:03.640I fully affirm the church's traditional teaching on that.
00:05:06.320However, the legal framework in the United States is that the courts do not want to get involved in internal church disputes, almost to the point of it being painful.
00:05:15.420One of the reasons that you had the clerical sex abuse crisis, as bad as it was, was because the authorities at first kind of just gave the church the benefit of the doubt of enforcing the issue on its own, which is insane to think about in hindsight.
00:05:27.300because they clearly were making it worse.
00:05:30.700But you wouldn't have this kind of court case
00:05:33.140in the United States that you just wouldn't
00:05:56.640that that law went into effect was the church property now of the church or the French state
00:06:01.960governed by, managed by the Catholic church. This is why Notre Dame was such a kind of a fiasco,
00:06:10.260the reconstruction, the restoration of the building, because the church had rights there,
00:06:14.980but the secular authorities were the ones who governed it. That gives you an idea of the
00:06:19.520difference in the relations there. And so you now have in France, they're looking to crack the door
00:06:26.400open to women's ordination. And these are kind of quasi-secular activist organizations who are
00:06:32.580going to try to use the French state and the EU's laws to force this on the church. It's amazing.
00:06:38.200It's interesting because we've already had, we've had two different instances of similar things.
00:06:43.660Already there've been court cases on the seal of confession, which has gone on and on and on and on
00:06:49.660and on. It's also related to, you know, they always relate it to the abuse issues, of course,
00:06:53.680but making the hard cases to try and force the church to allow for confessions not to be
00:06:59.400sacrosanct. But also, COVID was a funny thing. Now, mind you, you had massive complicity from
00:07:06.180Francis on down. But nonetheless, it was a seeming world movement, a legal requirement
00:07:14.380that was accepted hook, line and sinker by the church. So even though it did actually fly in
00:07:20.980the face of what Catholics should do. Now, mind you, there was total agreement and acceptance by
00:07:27.420the Pope there, so it was a different thing. But nonetheless, just two examples that struck me that
00:07:32.100somehow relate to this possibility. The thing that struck me about all this was
00:07:36.820that it was, it's kind of surprising that the Vatican could be blindsided by this
00:07:41.940because they seem to have a very good grasp on secular institutions and they have
00:07:50.220relations with the secular state that are, generally speaking, probably going too far,
00:07:57.720especially since we're not talking about governments run by Catholics who have a Catholic
00:08:03.060worldview. These are godless, atheistic countries who go out of their way to violate the church's
00:08:10.280teaching on every manner of thing under the sun. They should have known better, but they didn't,
00:08:16.080because ecumenical dialogue is the rule of the day.
00:08:20.380This is one of those things that one of the missives from the Holy See to the SSPX explicitly stated as being a problem
00:08:30.000was that they ignore some of the teachings of the church from Vatican II, and that's ecumenical dialogue.
00:08:36.320If you read the things, the Society of St. Pius X has consistently said for 40 years, 50 years, our problems,
00:08:43.440It's one of them is ecumenical dialogues near the top of the list.
00:08:47.200It is core to the post-conciliar, I guess, ontology, if you want to call it that, that their view, their ecclesiology, their view of the mission of the church is ecumenical dialogue, not for the purpose of conversion of souls, bringing souls into the Catholic church, but for some unspecified good feelings or something.
00:09:08.540They never really tell you what the point of ecumenical dialogue is other than to journey together, whatever that means.
00:09:14.280And now because of that, they may have run afoul of the law.
00:09:38.340We're not even going to say Pius X. Pius XI, the Pope from the last century nobody ever talks about, or Benedict XV, his predecessor. Could you imagine anything like that? It'd be ridiculous.
00:09:48.040this is really stunning because you have uh you have the holy father as it were uh doing these
00:09:56.820things i don't know am i i might be a little bit too cynical it would be a handy excuse if you
00:10:04.160really wanted women priests or to open up the church to the possibility to say hey we're being
00:10:13.080forced by the state you know we have to comply a little bit whatever whatever i don't know is that
00:10:17.820Is that going too far or what do you think of that?
00:10:21.040I would love to think that that's going too far.
00:10:23.460And we'll say for the sake of the argument, sure, it's going too far.
00:10:27.100I never thought the day I would see the day where a pope would stand by while people got on their knees and worshipped a tree, like we saw the Pacamama Garden debacle or the pictures of his successor participating in a Pacamama ritual as the Catholic published book by the Augustinians described the event.
00:10:47.820So I don't know what too far is anymore. I mean, we witnessed Pope Leo walk a pregnant migrant and her two children through a actual gate that had been constructed for the occasion at Lampedusa, which is the most blatant open border symbol possible in the European context.
00:11:05.300So I don't know what too far is anymore with what to expect from Rome.
00:11:09.200I don't think they'll go for it because at the very, but there's always that qualifying
00:11:13.940statement that Pope Leo made that I can't get out of my head now, which is attitudes
00:12:01.700with like new generations of Catholics coming up.
00:12:04.120But we shall see. But in terms of would it surprise me? Not much surprises me anymore coming out of the Vatican. Not much. Not after the excommunications, not after Pacamama, not after calling, not after the building of the Abu Dhabi Prayer Center, which has, for those who don't know what that is, the Abu Dhabi Declaration.
00:12:26.240Bishop Schneider explicitly condemned the thing.
00:12:28.600I mean, I think in his condemnations, because he had multiple of them, I think he used the word heretical or heresy.
00:12:34.100I might be wrong, but it's a place in Abu Dhabi where there is a synagogue, a Christian church is how it's described, because of course it has to be ecumenical, and a mosque, all on the same site.
00:12:47.080They all stand right next to each other with a peace garden in between.
00:12:50.860Because getting along to go along is the rule of the day.
00:20:33.740In other words, that becomes necessary for all Catholics to believe
00:20:37.280because of its repetition over many years by various popes.
00:20:42.680So have you heard that or what do you make of it?
00:20:44.840I think that's generally what I've heard,
00:20:46.860that if a teaching is repeated often enough,
00:20:48.880it becomes, and if it's in place long enough,
00:20:50.940If it becomes part of the capital T tradition, the priesthood, I don't think, has ever been de fide, defined as being celibate in nature, where you can't have married priests.
00:29:13.300It does seem like a memo went out or something
00:29:15.660that they were going to take a different approach with things.
00:29:18.860But you've also seen a few of them who had been more silent
00:29:22.240in the last few years of Francis' papacy being less silent now.
00:29:27.040Bishop Schneider comes to mind immediately.
00:29:29.120He has been more active than he had been in the last few years under Francis
00:29:33.380because it looks like somebody gave him a warning of some kind.
00:29:37.040You have to ask the bishop yourself on that one, but it does look like some kind of memo went out to a lot of bishops or, and it could also just be that they like the demeanor more.
00:29:52.820And I've had this theory that much of the resistance to Francis was because of his personality.
00:29:58.340He would just say nasty things, which made it easier to see the nasty actions for what they were.
00:30:03.360But when you have a better demeanor, you can get away with saying pretty bad things or doing bad things if you tend to be much more charitable or peaceful in your presentation than otherwise.
00:30:18.720And I suspect that's what some of it is with this.
00:30:22.680There are bishops, I think, who should know better when they see Fernandez issuing documents or these homosexual rallies basically happening.
00:30:31.060And was it St. Peter's Basilica where the last September that infamous mass happened, where the cardinal who gave the mass, he explicitly said that he was told by the Pope to welcome the homosexuals there to the mass, where they were all dressed in like normal street clothing, some of them with some profanity on their shirts and things?
00:30:50.300That was two things. One, it was a pilgrimage into St. Peter's. That was through the Holy Door. And that was an official thousand men or so pilgrimage of LGBT activists. The other thing, the mass they had with Father James Martin and his crew, that was in one of the other Roman churches.
00:31:06.480Yeah. But it was scandalous nonetheless. And it was, and they were welcomed officially by the Pope. And I think there has been, I think, an attitude among some of the bishops and some of the cardinals that used to publish letters that I would read regularly on my channel. Now, none of them do. And that is, if we play nice, we'll get the TLM back.
00:31:24.620and that is not seeing the forest for the trees this is why and i think it's the same reason you
00:31:31.920see so many of these otherwise as you said best of the best cardinals refusing to engage with the
00:31:39.420society of saint pius x core argument if you actually read any of the things that they have
00:31:43.820said leading up to and since the consecration of bishops the liturgy while it does factor into
00:31:49.020their decisions is never mentioned first. It's mentioned long down the list of things. It's
00:31:55.340always theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, all the core elements of the faith that feed into
00:32:02.140the liturgical question. It's not the liturgy for the liturgy's sake. And this is why it's so
00:32:06.740interesting to see all of these bishops, some of them very well-meaning, say the time is now to
00:32:13.160unleash the TLM and to allow traditionus custodius to be abandoned and restore some
00:32:19.860more pontificum. Leo isn't even no, no sign that he's going to do that. And even if he did do that,
00:32:25.840I would caution people against celebrating too much because what can be given can be taken away.
00:32:33.180And the question is not the liturgy by itself. It is ecclesiology.
00:32:40.660No, in fact, the SSPX itself made that point very succinctly.
00:32:45.860One of their new releases, I think it was like a week or two ago,
00:32:50.960they said, the precise reason why the consecrations of July 1st were carried out
00:32:56.180is to continue to publicly denounce the errors present in the current magisterium
00:33:02.980and therefore to preserve the Catholic faith in all its integrity.
00:33:06.480and i thought that was beautiful because really this is as father merle always says
00:33:13.400this is not about the latin mass this is about faith um and particularly for those uh like you
00:33:21.040in into tradition both with the capital t and then the traditional latin mass as well
00:33:26.380I have more in common with the wide gamut of people who, um, are at the Novus Ordo far end
00:33:38.360of the, uh, charismatic, I guess you'd call them Medjugorje, whatever, whatever, all the way to
00:33:44.700the hardcore set of a cantist. Their mass, their mass is very, very, very, very different, but at
00:33:54.220same time, they still know the faith and he's defending the faith and they recognize what's
00:34:01.080going on in Rome and has been going on in Rome for at least 13, 14 years now is off the page.
00:34:07.940Right. And in fact, if you, if you want to get beyond just the kind of implied liturgical
00:34:12.060question there, I have more in common with the, with the repentant homosexual, former homosexual,
00:34:18.200you know who goes to confession is a member of courage international lives the faith quietly
00:34:24.700or the the reformed uh you know woman who had a an account for that website that starts with
00:34:32.200word only and the second word is fans you can't say the name of that on youtube they will make
00:34:35.920sure no one ever sees this video if we ever say the website you know the reformed woman like that
00:34:40.060or the the man who spent a lot of money consuming that woman's content who repented of it and
00:34:44.780struggles with all the hangups that come with that, who go to confession, learn the faith,
00:34:48.780regardless of the liturgy they go to. I have more in common with them than the people who tell us
00:34:54.400to maybe be quiet about all of this stuff. Or on the flip side of it, the people who think that
00:35:00.540Francis and Leo haven't gone far enough in changing the faith. I have more in common with anybody who
00:35:06.660stands up against that stuff than I do the people who promote that stuff or who have surrendered to
00:35:11.600it who want to just be pushed off into a quiet zone to have their tlm while the rest of the
00:35:17.520church just continues down the road it's on yeah and it can't be that was bishop uh or archbishop
00:35:25.700vegano some six months ago basically said to paraphrase we got to put away our differences
00:35:32.360even though some of them are real legitimate just for a little while because the faith is actually
00:35:37.320under attack. And, uh, I, I really think that call, uh, needs to go out, uh, for, for a real
00:35:45.340kind of unite the clans. That's not even so much about the TLM, although it's an important thing.
00:35:50.980It's actually about the faith and what's happening in Rome has to be dealt with because for right
00:35:57.480now, Archbishop Sheen's prophecy is coming true. He said, you know, don't expect who's going to
00:36:05.980save the church it's not going to be the bishops or the priests or the religious but it's going to
00:36:10.120be the laity and interestingly it was supposed to be the laity who keep the bishops acting like
00:36:14.080bishops priests acting like priests and the religious you know who else said that though
00:36:18.420vegano said ironically enough it was i believe that was said at vatican too wasn't it that the
00:36:23.400age of the laity had become had come i know i know that i know archbishop sheen said that that
00:36:28.540it was the laity yeah who around the time towards the very end of his life where archbishop sheen
00:36:33.780was starting to clearly have some buyer's remorse about the whole conciliar project where he said
00:36:38.080it was the laity who would save the church i don't pretend to be saving the church that's well above
00:36:43.780any of our pay grades it's really going to be our lord saving the church but you have the choice
00:36:48.520before you every day to cooperate with that by praying and fasting and doing acts of penance
00:36:54.320and just working on sanctity yourself and also all that stuff is fairly easy compared to the
00:36:59.620one thing that virtually every Catholic in the West is bad at today,
00:37:02.340which is talking to non-Catholics about the truth of the faith.
00:37:29.620And if, and that sounds like it's true and not literally true, but it takes numerous encounters and you might just be number 17 out of 47 that it takes for that person to, to really have something happen where then they hopefully start darkening the doors of a Catholic church somewhere.
00:37:47.440Beautiful. Anthony, I think we'll stop it there because actually that's a good note. So that a lot of us who are trying to bang the drum don't feel like we're doing something completely useless. But it is true. It's tough going when it seems nobody's listening. And I don't mean the listeners, but I mean the bishops and the priests and the religious who are supposed to be listening. But 40 times, that's a lot.