00:01:50.100Let's begin as we always do with the sign of the cross. In the name of the Father,
00:01:54.020and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:01:57.260I'm going to start with a good friend of mine who recently came out with her position on the SSPX.
00:02:07.420This is Mother Miriam. She's super famous because she was Jewish, then converted to become an
00:02:14.560evangelical, and then tried to convert Catholics for about 10 years, and then became a Catholic.
00:02:19.540And under Cardinal Burke, founded her own order, and now works to promote the truth and is unafraid
00:02:27.040to call out the errors, even the errors of Francis and Leo. But here was her take on
00:02:35.040the current situation with the SSPX. Let's have a listen.
00:02:39.360Neither pope has given us, the faithful, a matter of doctrine that is of faith and morals that is wrong and error and bounded on the faithful.
00:02:53.600How do we know that Pope Leo is the pope and that Pope Francis was the pope?
00:02:58.360Because they have been universally accepted as pope.
00:03:02.260Now, if they're false, it'll take a future pope to declare that.
00:03:08.720We cannot know that. They're accepted as Pope by the church, even if they teach heresy.
00:03:14.520From there also, though, we have Bishop Schneider, another man I know and love and honestly think he's going to be a saint.
00:03:22.100And he too has recognized the errors of Francis and even Leo.
00:03:27.660But he has a thesis that is very controversial.
00:03:31.500I want to read you a line from his thesis, and it's a very interesting one, and I think one that shocks in a particular way.
00:03:44.340I talked to him at length in various interviews about this very topic years ago already, but I want to just read you from his essay over at 1 Peter 5, which I think is very succinct.
00:03:54.840he says the pope cannot commit heresy when he speaks ex cathedra this is a dogma of faith
00:04:03.380in his teaching outside of ex cathedra statements however he can commit doctrinal ambiguities
00:04:10.100errors and even heresies and since the pope is not identical with the entire church the church
00:04:16.680is stronger than a singular erring or heretical pope.
00:04:22.020Just so that we're all clear on heresies, I want to let you know that we are talking
00:04:31.020about heresies, and this is where the third character whom I know and love is also in
00:04:36.540this debate, Cardinal Raymond Burke, who I also think will one day be a saint, but he
00:04:43.560has said uh and avowed that what we're dealing with when it comes to certain teachings the death
00:04:51.200penalty is a reversal of church teaching now the death penalty teaching the new one by uh francis
00:04:57.560is in the catechism and it's been not only reiterated but emphasized and more than a
00:05:05.480highlighted, doubled down on by Leo XIV. Let's listen. This is Cardinal Burke saying in 2019,
00:05:14.200after Francis had come out with the new teaching on the death penalty, which opposed the old
00:05:19.420teaching. Here's what Cardinal Burke had to say. And by the way, Cardinal Burke did this
00:05:23.760in union with Cardinal Pujac, as well as Archbishop Tomasz Peta and Archbishop Jan
00:05:31.920Pavolenga and Bishop Schneider. This was their assessment of just the one heresy. They say,
00:05:38.860in accordance with the Holy Scripture and the constant tradition of the ordinary and universal
00:05:44.740magisterium, the church did not err in teaching that the civil power may lawfully exercise
00:05:51.800capital punishment, i.e. the death penalty, on malefactors where this is truly necessary to
00:05:57.860preserve the existence or just order of societies. In case you're wondering about it, here's Pope
00:06:04.260Leo reiterating Francis's heretical teaching on the death penalty and then his doubling down.
00:06:11.780Watch this. It's important to look at many issues that are related to what is the teaching of the
00:06:17.120church. Someone who says I'm against abortion but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not
00:06:22.620really pro-life. So someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with
00:06:29.660the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in the United States, I don't know if that's pro-life.0.99
00:06:35.500So they're very complex issues. Ed, I'm really hoping that you can make some sense of this for
00:06:40.340us because what we have now is this teaching, I guess it was best expounded by Bishop Schneider.
00:06:46.620popes can indeed teach heresy as long as it's not in ex cathedra statements and mother miriam
00:06:52.880seems to follow that logic when condemning the sspx because she says that we are to follow
00:07:00.600but she adds not when he's commanding sin comparing that to a husband who's to be listened
00:07:06.240to by his wife unless there's sin and then cardinal burke as well uh saying we must obey
00:07:11.320you know the sspx must obey uh the holy father all of them accepting this premise that was
00:07:19.420basically best enunciated by bishop schneider that a pope can indeed in his official teaching
00:07:28.140on faith and morals give us heresy let me start off with this question the last
00:07:36.240ex cathedra statement in the church when was that 1950 pious the 12th solemnly defined the
00:07:45.280assumption of our lady i guess since then we could have had anything goes any heretical teaching on
00:07:52.600faith and morals um it could have been possible and we're just i guess really lucky that it's
00:07:57.400only been francis and leo and everybody else didn't and the faith could look completely
00:08:01.780different. I'm trying to make sense of this. I don't mean to be flippant, but it's really
00:08:05.800a central question. And you had a line in your book that really struck me because it really,
00:08:13.300it pinpointed this. And it was this line, and I'm hoping you can expand on that for us.
00:08:20.140You said, we're forced to choose between the conclusion that the Bergoglian pontificate,
00:08:27.520that means francis pontificate was invalid or that the ordinary papal magisterium can teach
00:08:34.660dangerous errors something that no ecumenical council or canonized saint has ever taught
00:08:40.900tell us if you would john henry the question is not whether or not the the sspx bishops have
00:08:48.120excommunicated themselves the question is is the pope the pope and this is a question that few
00:08:57.020people have been willing to grapple with publicly for over 13 years now. Okay. Francis was not
00:09:05.500Francis. And to all appearances, Leo is not Leo. These are manifest public heretics parading
00:09:17.360as legitimate popes. They're anti-popes. And heretics don't have the power to excommunicate
00:09:26.660anybody, as we can get into. But I want to make that clear. There's an elephant in the room.
00:09:33.700And with all due respect to Mother Miriam, Cardinal Burke, Bishop Athanasius Schneider,
00:09:39.700and everybody else in the Catholic world, that's what we have to understand. The first question is,
00:09:46.320do we have an anti-pope squatting on the chair of Peter? Our Lady of Fatima, in the Third Secret,0.81
00:09:52.600as as we have been told by different prelates in the church said that the devil would infiltrate
00:09:59.500the church there would be apostasy starting from the top all right so that's the first thing we
00:10:04.400got to get on the table here that being said the next thing we have to address is bishop schneider's
00:10:11.680statement i can't think of a statement in 2000 years of catholic history that is more uncatholic
00:10:18.060than to say that the Pope can teach grievous error and even be a flaming heretic.
00:10:27.380And not only that, but there's nothing we can do. We just have to live with it. So where to begin?0.60
00:10:32.180Well, let's begin with Catholic teaching on the role of the Pope within the Catholic Church.
00:10:39.480You're very kind to point out all of this is in my book, Saints vs. Anti-Popes. There are
00:10:45.140over 135 theologians who have grappled with the issue of, can a pope be a heretic? And if a pope
00:10:56.340was a heretic, what would happen? St. Robert Bellarmine, doctor of the church, said that
00:11:03.420if the pope were a heretic, he would automatically lose his office. Suarez is another famous1.00
00:11:11.140theologian who agreed with him. On the other side of the question, there's John of St. Thomas,
00:11:17.080for example, who says that, well, an imperfect council would have to be held in order to
00:11:23.400actually depose the heretical pope. Now, out of these 130 plus theologians who have
00:11:33.120come to grips with this issue. Only one, Marie-Dominique Bois, taught that the heretic0.71
00:11:44.320pope would still be pope. Those people who claim that Leo is a heretic or Francis was a heretic,
00:11:52.540but he's still pope and we still owe him obedience and he still has the jurisdiction
00:11:56.980to to excommunicate people they're following one person out of 135 and they're not even doing that
00:12:06.220because every theologian well I'll just read you the quote this is from Marie-Dominique Bois
00:12:13.940but on the hypothesis that the pope could turn privately heretic I would deny in an absolute way
00:12:22.780that he would be deposed ipso facto or that he could be deposed by any counsel. Now, St. Robert
00:12:30.180Bellarmine classified this opinion as exceedingly improbable. And again, this is the only opinion
00:12:36.260out of 135. The bottom line is this. All these hundreds of theologians that have talked about
00:12:45.380the possibility of a pope becoming a heretic and then what to do with him. Does he lose his office
00:12:50.060automatically, or do we need an imperfect counsel? Or in the case of Marie-Dominique Bois,
00:12:56.620there's nothing you can do. In all of these cases, they are postulating the Pope fell into heresy
00:13:03.940as a private teacher, as a private doctor. As far as I'm aware, there is no one in Catholic
00:13:12.900history in 2000 years of Catholic history, no saint, no counsel that has ever taught
00:13:18.860that a vicar of Christ, a successor of St. Peter, a pope, qua pope, acting as pope in his ordinary
00:13:28.380or his extraordinary magisterium could teach heresy. There is no such teaching in the Catholic
00:13:35.000church. In fact, quite the opposite. I can prove. Can you just clarify that point for a second?
00:13:40.120because you said in his ordinary or extraordinary magisterium, define that. What does that mean?
00:13:46.280When the Pope makes a pronouncement like Pius XII made the solemn declaration that Mary was
00:13:53.480assumed into heaven in 1950, or in 1854, Pope Pius IX solemnly defined that Mary was immaculately
00:14:05.940conceived or on certain other occasions the pope acting ex cathedra right teaching something that
00:14:14.840all catholics must hold to is protected by the holy spirit it's a negative protection he's
00:14:20.400protected by the holy spirit from teaching heresy okay you you it's infallible it's infallible
00:14:27.100teaching uh unfailing you know unfailing as it were there is the ordinary magisterium
00:14:32.940which is, you know, as the name would imply, it's the teaching authority which the Pope ordinarily
00:14:40.260employs. And as you point out, Bishop Schneider and others, philosopher Ed Fazer, a number of,
00:14:49.460you know, otherwise good individuals who teach that, well, the Pope can make serious, grievous
00:14:56.620errors in this other mode, this ordinary mode of teaching. It's just that Francis and
00:15:02.520Leo are the most extraordinary and prolific examples of this in 2,000 years of church
00:15:09.440teaching. There is no backing to this. There is no foundation to assuming that. Again, it's already
00:15:15.380been established that when a pope speaks ex cathedra, that is to say, in his extraordinary
00:15:20.060magisterium, he is infallible. He can't teach error of any kind, actually, let alone heresy.
00:15:28.360But what about the ordinary magisterium? Well, the pope can be infallible even in his ordinary
00:15:37.180magisterium when not just one pope, but a series of popes teach over a long period of time the
00:15:45.960same thing again and again and again and again and again and again to the whole church. That's
00:15:52.340infallible. Now you read this in every dogmatic manual, especially written before Vatican II.
00:16:00.800That's what you'll find. So the fact that the popes 17 times have said that Mary is mediatrics
00:16:11.580of all graces and co-redemptrics means that those teachings are actually infallible, which actually0.56
00:16:17.340shows that Prevost is most likely an antipope because he is, through Tucho, is saying that
00:16:26.420we can't call Mary co-redemptrix or mediatrix, even though the ordinary magisterium of the
00:16:33.260Catholic Church, 17 different statements from popes have established that it's infallible
00:16:39.260teaching. That doesn't mean that it's an ex-catheter teaching because it's not the
00:16:43.300extraordinary magisterium. My old colleague, Dr. Mark Miravale, has been petitioning the Holy See
00:16:49.300to come out and make an extraordinary magisterial statement on the subject. But quite frankly,
00:16:56.060in the words of Father William Most, one of the best teachers of the 20th century,
00:17:00.920we don't need it. It's already infallible. But I got news for you. That's not the only teaching
00:17:06.680that's been repeated 17 or more times over the course of centuries, actually. There is a teaching
00:17:14.100that the Pope is indefectible. The successor of St. Peter cannot defect from the faith. In other
00:17:21.700words, he cannot teach grievous error that's poisonous to the rest of the church. This was
00:17:27.560confirmed at the First Vatican Council, as a matter of fact, and it's also been confirmed
00:17:32.580dogmatically by other popes, but with your indulgence, I will read a few quotes just to
00:17:38.260give an example. There's probably two dozen or more throughout the history of the church,
00:17:42.860and this is predicated upon St. Luke chapter 22 verses 32 through 33, where our Lord says to St.
00:17:53.240Peter, he says to him that Satan hath desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for thee
00:18:02.680that thy faith not fail. When you have come to yourself, confirm your brothers, confirm the
00:18:09.340brethren. Now, again, there's scores of commentaries by popes and saints down through the centuries on
00:18:17.180this point. And the point is, is that the Roman pontiff cannot teach error, period. I mean,
00:18:24.180serious error that would land souls in hell if they followed it. So in the back of my book,
00:18:29.780again, Saints versus Antipopes, I've got an appendix. And in that appendix, I list
00:18:34.440these statements by the most famous statements by popes and by other saints. So for example,
00:18:42.420St. Lucius I, Pope Martyr, who ruled from 253 to 254.
00:18:49.840This is under the Diccian persecution.
00:28:00.380who, in the ordinary exercise of his magisterium, is already acting not as a private person,
00:28:12.040but as the supreme teacher of the universal church. When the Pope is teaching as the supreme
00:28:20.000teacher of the universal church, he cannot teach heresy. Plain and simple.
00:28:25.480That's so troublesome because, you know, with the official teaching documents of amor statitia, of gaudete exultate, of fiducius supplicans, we have that problem in spades where every Catholic who's a Catholic knows that's not on.
00:28:45.300And yet it's a teaching on faith and morals that, as Catholics, we're supposed to submit to in mind and in will.
00:28:53.400Pope Innocent III, you know, some people say, well, you know, theologians debate whether or not the pope can lose his office.
00:28:59.340But as I just pointed out, we've got dozens and dozens of popes that taught magisterially and infallibly that the Holy See is indefectible.
00:29:07.020But if you want to go back to the argument about does the pope lose his office, Pope Innocent III in his magisterium teaches.
00:29:13.540so he the pope can be judged by men or rather shown to be judged if he clearly loses his savor
00:29:22.640to heresy since he who does not believe is already judged more examples of saints and what they did
00:29:30.380practically speaking at the turn of the second at the beginning of the second millennium
00:29:38.500there was a situation in medieval europe where kings emperors lay lords were appointing bishops
00:29:47.220not only were they appointing bishops they were investing them with the symbols of their
00:29:51.940spiritual authority now the reason why this had gone on is because for 200 years there was the
00:29:57.800sort of the salutary neglect that had happened because of the vikings and the magyars and
00:30:03.480different invasions that happened, and Europe broke up into feudal Europe, and the papacy was
00:30:09.040in a bad state. But when the reformed popes came along, they said, no, you can't keep doing this.
00:30:15.040This was known as the investiture controversy. And the emperors, one emperor, decided to
00:30:24.840imprison pope pascal ii and then when pascal ii was released the rest of the bishops of the church
00:30:35.180were expecting pascal to condemn the emperor for lay investiture but he didn't even when he got
00:30:42.580his liberty back so three canonized saints saintly bishops saint hugo saint eve and saint godfrey
00:30:52.820attended a council in France. And at this council, they condemned in a document,
00:31:03.440lay investiture. And what they did was they wrote to the Pope and they said,
00:31:11.540as we absolutely do not expect, you choose another way and you refuse to confirm the
00:31:19.960decisions of our authority, may God help us, for you will be separating us from obedience to you.
00:31:30.200He's an antipope, and therefore, they don't have to be in communion with an antipope. Again,
00:31:35.580fortunately for history, he confirmed their teaching, and a crisis was averted.
00:31:43.080But the point is, John Henry, these saintly bishops, these canonized saints, they didn't sit idle. They didn't say, okay, let's have a novena campaign. They came out and they said, Jesus's way or the highway.
00:32:00.020So, Ed, at this point, I'm sure a lot of listeners are like me, going, ah, where are our cardinals? Where are our bishops? Like, they're literally nowhere. I mean, we've had Leo now. We've gone past his first anniversary as Pope. He's affirmed every horror from Francis.
00:32:20.340he's if if the clearest easiest example of heresy is the death penalty one he's not only affirmed
00:32:27.720that he's doubled down on with the uh if you're not if you're not against death penalty you're
00:32:32.160not pro-life but then with the new teaching demoting our lady which as you explain was
00:32:39.140you can't contradict it because the church has said it over and over and over again
00:32:42.740contradicting an infallible teaching of the church but you know it's incredible because
00:32:46.180there's been veritable silence on Leo yeah sure there was some noise with with regard to Francis
00:32:52.340but I guess Francis showed enough of the cardinals I'm going to demote you uh or the archbishops
00:32:58.480laicize you uh if you if you dare to speak out such that we've had zero criticism of Leo from
00:33:07.580the cardinals and even from bishops almost nary word every every once in a while a little blip
00:33:13.580and that's it and you're talking a handful of bishops literally on the planet so we're left
00:33:20.580like the laity are left doing it but the what are you supposed to do as lady if you're saying here
00:33:27.820the the bishops are the one to are the ones to confront this they're the ones to take it up
00:33:32.480they're the ones the cardinals principally i guess are the ones but there's like zero literally zero
00:33:37.880right now, taking up Leo. What are we supposed to do? Well, we're told we're supposed to follow
00:33:44.540the example of the saints and holy people, correct? I mean, everything I've been telling
00:33:49.500you so far is what the church has taught for centuries. Are we supposed to now no longer
00:33:55.540go along with that, to please Leo, to please Tucho? So let's give some examples from history
00:34:01.340of what holy lay people did under the suspicious circumstances of suspicious characters.
00:34:07.880Uh, if we go back to around the year 429, the imperial capital of Rome was Constantinople.
00:34:34.680She's more like God's valet because she dressed him in human clothes, but she's not the mother of the word made flesh, as it were, right?
00:34:46.920And in the cathedral of Hagia Sophia, a lay lawyer stood up and said, that's heresy.
00:34:54.440And not only did he say that's heresy, but then he went around and posted a document in public and in the church, copies and copies and copies of documents of the same document in which he says, his name was Eusebius.
00:35:15.040He was later made a bishop and he later not only fought against Nestorianism, he later fought against the opposite heresy, monophysitism.
00:35:22.120I have sworn this statement by the Holy Trinity so that it may be made known to the bishops,
00:35:29.920priests, deacons, readers, and the faithful living in Constantinople that the heresy of
00:35:35.860Nestorius is of the same kind as that of Paul of Samosata, who was condemned 160 years ago
00:35:43.700by the Orthodox fathers. He goes through and he takes quotes from this heretic, Paul of Samosata,
00:35:50.300and he lines up the statements of Nestorius, and he proves that Nestorius is a heretic.
00:35:58.480Now, Eusebius was never sanctioned by the Pope for having the audacity as a layman
00:36:03.200to resist his archbishop in this very proactive way that he did.
00:36:10.600As I told you, he later became a bishop and was instrumental in fighting monophysitism.
00:36:16.440Now, Pope Celestine, when he eventually wrote to Nestorius, he says to him that this dreadful news has reached our ears about your novelties.
00:36:32.500We hear that Christ's church is torn apart. With what conscience are you living, meaning Nestorius, being deserted by nearly everyone in the city, meaning the imperial capital?
00:36:46.440Now, they've deserted communion from a heretical bishop.
00:36:51.420And the Pope said, you've been deserted, bro.0.88
00:36:54.980John Henry, you at LifeSite News have reproduced an article by the good folks at WM Review.
00:37:03.600They have reproduced in the article, Can Heretics Excommunicate?
00:37:10.480They say, they quote Pope Celestine writing to the Eastern bishops.
00:37:15.680Actually, it's Pope Nicholas writing to the Emperor Michael, quoting Pope Celestine at the time of Nestorius writing to the Eastern bishops.
00:37:27.300And he says, if anyone has been excommunicated or stripped of the dignity of bishop or cleric by Bishop Nestorius from the time he began to preach such things,
00:37:39.740It is manifest that this person has persisted and does persist in our communion, and we do not consider him removed, because the sentence of one who had already shown himself deserving of removal could not remove anyone.
00:37:58.900A, newsflash to the world. Leo doesn't have the power to excommunicate anybody. Tucho doesn't
00:38:07.400have the power to excommunicate anybody according to what? The magisterial teaching of Pope Celestine.
00:38:14.560Elephant in the room has to be dealt with. Now, that's not the only example of lay people.
00:38:21.100Let's take a woman, an unlettered lay nothing, as my friend Anne Barnhart likes to call her, with all due respect.
00:38:31.040Catherine of Siena, in September of 1378, wrote to the Italian cardinals.
00:38:37.040Why? Well, because in September, they, along with the, well, the other cardinals had elected Robert of Geneva, whom Catherine considered an antipope.
00:39:15.860uh the second appendix is selections from catherine's letter to the italian cardinals
00:39:22.120and she says what made you do this the poison of self-love which has infected the world
00:39:29.780this is what has made you pillars lighter than straw flowers you who shed no perfume
00:39:38.160but stench that makes the whole world reek um tell me what you really think kathy0.96
00:39:44.760um she goes on to say that basically this guy is is the devil and you have inflicted this devil on0.72
00:39:53.580us you should know better i mean so this is how a lay woman addressed the college of cardinals well
00:40:00.520we're supposed to emulate the saints aren't we john henry so something you said there really
00:40:04.640struck me because it is part of the conversation i had with bishop schneider so i asked bishop
00:40:10.480Schneider about the possibility, because if you remember during the, if you remember, you're the
00:40:16.920guy who wrote the book, but it was during the Francis pontificate that we were having all
00:40:24.520these troubles. One of which was because of what you presented, it was about the Benedict's
00:40:31.640resignation and how it doesn't work, how it's wrong. And I know there's different people who
00:40:38.940made the same claim but that was that was one of them and i asked bishop schneider about this
00:40:44.200because not only is it the uh resignation but then it was the rules uh set up by john paul
00:40:52.940ii for the election which were also uh not followed and then the the the pronouncement
00:41:01.080in the document that that uh john paul ii made university dominici grages uh especially i think
00:41:06.600it was paragraph 76 that talked about how if elected improperly it doesn't count it confers
00:41:12.460no power on the one elected and there's no need for any announcement on the matter and of course
00:41:16.920we had the revelations of the sun gallant mafia and that collusion which violated the laws in
00:41:23.600university dominici graders the constitution on the election of pontiff and here's what bishop
00:41:29.400Schneider told me. He said, if the whole college of cardinals agrees that this is the Pope,
00:41:38.960that supplies for the problem and he is the Pope for sure. And what you just said a second ago
00:41:46.820was that Catherine is fighting the whole college of cardinals. That's crazy because that just
00:41:54.380undoes what the very sort of thesis or whatever that it seems Bishop Schneider was working from.
00:42:03.220I tell you that you cardinals did wrong with the antipope. He was chosen a member of the devil.0.57
00:42:10.420You have committed all these faults in regard to this devil to confess him as pope, which he surely
00:42:17.380is not Catherine of Siena. Now, I will debate anybody, John Henry, anytime, any place in the
00:42:25.200Catholic world on this point, that lay people can observe objective reality and tell the truth like
00:42:31.520it is. I want to come back to the beginning only because what we're experiencing right now in the
00:42:36.960church is a rather unbelievable time of division, and I would say even diabolic disorientation.
00:42:47.380You have the best of the best of the best people fighting one another, sometimes less charitably. I have heard from now many people in this space calling for charity because these condemnations, like this morning with Bishop Paprocki saying they're just Protestants.
00:43:10.700There is a understanding among all Orthodox Catholics that something is very, very wrong.
00:43:19.720To put it very simply, if Leo was your pastor at your parish, he last week met with Father