The John-Henry Westen Show - November 06, 2026


The true story of Vatican Insider intrigue coming to the Screen

Opposing Communion in the Hand “Extremist”？ Church History Disagrees

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Length

56 minutes

Words per minute

136.94

Word count

7,714

Sentence count

543

Harmful content

Toxicity

12

sentences flagged

Hate speech

7

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Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 When you have someone who should be excommunicated, architecting the new Mass and giving instructions
00:00:06.460 to every Catholic priest and bishop in the world as to how to offer Mass and the sacraments,
00:00:12.600 and he's a Freemason, there's something very, very wrong. 0.90
00:00:17.840 Hello, my friends. Welcome to the John Hunter Weston Show. No, this is not Faith and Reason.
00:00:22.300 We got the sign confused. No, this is the John Hunter Weston Show, and we have our beloved
00:00:26.920 beloved host of Faith and Reason with us, Father Charles Murrah. That is true. And he is here with
00:00:33.640 a friend of his who is actually putting into a video series his work, his great work, Murder in
00:00:42.220 the 33rd Degree. Now, for those of you who have not read it, too bad for you, but you still can,
00:00:47.680 of course, but you will also be able to avail yourself of this series, which will come out
00:00:52.320 at some point in the future. Murder in the 33rd Degree, I like to refer to as the insider's guide
00:01:00.100 to infiltration. This is sort of the real-time account of what happened with Vatican intrigue
00:01:08.020 from an insider, which could really only come from our beloved Father Murr. So Father, without
00:01:15.460 further ado, welcome to my program and also to you, Luis. Father, maybe you could introduce us
00:01:22.020 to your friend Luis?
00:01:23.760 Luis and I met, what, about two years ago, right?
00:01:28.280 Is it now, about two years ago?
00:01:29.540 In Rio de Janeiro, actually in Sao Paulo,
00:01:34.040 through a mutual friend, Father Wander,
00:01:36.480 a great priest, a great priest.
00:01:38.800 And after talking to a convention,
00:01:43.580 to a conference, which was amazing,
00:01:47.700 it was an amazingly well-organized conference,
00:01:51.840 So many young people.
00:01:54.060 I mean, you couldn't believe it.
00:01:55.640 Young families.
00:01:57.260 There were over, I don't know, about 800 people.
00:02:00.960 Just amazing.
00:02:02.780 Beautifully attended and everyone well behaved and everything else.
00:02:05.720 Anyway, after the talks that I gave, Luis approached me at dinner.
00:02:12.520 And we started talking about the possibility of doing a documentary.
00:02:18.840 is what I understood. And I said, you know me, I'm so shy. I said, well, I don't know.
00:02:27.020 I said, certainly, certainly you could do a documentary. And I bet I would help him in
00:02:31.840 any way that I could. So basically, that's it. And Luis is now living in Rome. And I always like
00:02:38.820 to have contacts in Rome. It's a good place to know somebody, right? He's a good man, married man,
00:02:44.020 happily married
00:02:46.600 and faithful
00:02:48.940 Catholic. So he's putting this
00:02:50.800 together through the lens
00:02:52.840 of faith. Lurice, welcome to the
00:02:54.880 program. Thank you, Dr. Harry.
00:02:57.080 Thank you to carry me here
00:02:58.880 with fire and work. It's a pleasure
00:03:00.920 to be here. Let's begin
00:03:03.000 as you always do with the sign of the cross. Father, if you could
00:03:05.040 lead us with that.
00:03:06.040 In nomine fratum satrini and spiritum
00:03:08.340 saithi. Amen. Amen.
00:03:10.720 Okay, so
00:03:11.960 This is a great work and I'm very familiar with it, but for viewers who are sort of getting here for the first time, the book really is about Vatican intrigue because you lived it in a very, very interesting way.
00:03:25.880 One of the centrical characters in the book is a Canadian, a Canadian cardinal, Archbishop Gagnon.
00:03:34.520 Tell us about him, how you got into this relationship, and also what is this investigation he was doing that really forms the sort of center of what's going on in the book?
00:03:48.200 It's a perfect beginning question, John Henry. Perfect, good beginning question.
00:03:52.460 In 1934, someone, we think it was a priest, I have a vague idea of who, but I don't know, so I'm not going to say someone, responsibly went to go see Cardinal Staffa.
00:04:08.580 Cardinal Staffa was head of the Signatura Apostolica, the Supreme Court of the Vatican, of the Catholic Church, of the Vatican, of the entire Catholic Church.
00:04:17.120 He received this man, and the man turned over some documents to him that were very important.
00:04:26.480 And there were documents accusing Annibale Bonini, Bishop Bonini, Bishop of the Congregation for the Divine Worship, Divine Worship and Sacraments.
00:04:39.840 In other words, the architect of the new mass.
00:04:44.080 This is Bonini.
00:04:45.340 and he presented these documents
00:04:50.960 stating that Bonini,
00:04:55.260 they affirmed that Bonini was a free mess.
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00:06:08.920 right now. They were authenticated by a lodge, a very important lodge in Italy, and the priest,
00:06:19.300 I think it was a priest who turned these over to Cardinal Stafford, said he couldn't imagine
00:06:27.780 better hands to turn these documents over to Stafford. So Cardinal Stafford did his own
00:06:34.320 investigation on the authenticity of the documents, because before you're going to move on anything
00:06:41.060 like that, you better know exactly what you're moving on, and had to be sure before you do
00:06:46.480 anything. So he called in Interpol and other agencies of investigation, and they did their
00:06:56.560 investigation, testing on everything. About three months later, they came to him with the conclusion
00:07:05.460 that they were authentic. They weren't forged. They weren't fake documents. They were authentic.
00:07:12.560 Therefore, Cardinal Staffa, who was a very, very, very pious and wise man,
00:07:20.440 contacted Cardinal Silvio Oddi, and the two of them went with these documents to see Pope
00:07:29.840 Paul VI, and they presented this to the Pope. Why is this important? Because this is in 1974.
00:07:39.560 This is the beginning of problems with the liturgy, with the sacraments, with the way
00:07:47.920 Catholics prayed. There were some real problems. I'm not going to get into all of the details.
00:07:53.660 Anybody who wants to know should follow faith and reason. There you'd find out everything we're
00:07:58.460 talking about. When you have someone who should be excommunicated architecting the new mass and
00:08:09.340 the sacraments and giving instructions to every Catholic priest and bishop in the world as to
00:08:15.980 how to offer Mass in the sacraments, and he's a Freemason. There's something wrong. There's
00:08:22.440 something very, very wrong. Pope Paul VI, not a strong man. He was not a strong man. As a matter
00:08:31.660 of fact, he was a rather weak man, timid to act on anything. It's a funny thing, John Henry. I
00:08:40.500 I don't know if you know this about him, but Paul VI, if he was going to chastise somebody on the
00:08:48.500 right, he had to wait till he could find someone on the left to chastise at the same time. He was
00:08:54.260 just afraid. And again, I guess you can understand it because we were in new waters. This is our
00:09:00.580 ship in different waters right after the council. But in 1974, the end of 1974, there was enough
00:09:08.820 evidence to remove
00:09:12.780 Bonini from the congregation
00:09:17.080 for the divine worship. And they made him,
00:09:21.180 they sent him to Iran, which I believe at that time had a population
00:09:25.320 of approximately, I may be wrong, but approximately
00:09:28.780 35,000 Catholics in the entire country.
00:09:32.560 He was in essence a parish priest
00:09:36.880 because there are parishes in New York that have that number.
00:09:40.920 They used to anyway.
00:09:43.080 And that was it.
00:09:45.240 Someone just wrote me the other day and they said,
00:09:46.960 shouldn't he have been excommunicated rather than promoted?
00:09:51.880 Yes, I would agree that he should have.
00:09:55.120 However, Vatican diplomacy works in a strange way.
00:09:59.740 To get rid of someone, you promote that person.
00:10:02.800 You don't come off his head, you know, 0.99
00:10:06.320 Which is unfortunate, because I think some heads should be cut off. 0.99
00:10:10.120 I really do. 0.98
00:10:11.420 It would have saved everybody a lot of time and trouble.
00:10:14.480 However, that was the idea.
00:10:16.860 So the Holy Father, Pope Paul, had a very special advisor, a man who had been his secretary for years, Giovanni Benelli, a bishop, and the Secretary of State.
00:10:32.640 And between him and Giovanni Benelli, they found the right man.
00:10:36.960 Benelli had the right man to do the investigation.
00:10:40.680 What investigation?
00:10:41.580 An investigation on the entire Roman Curia, on the entire Vatican government.
00:10:48.740 This is the central government of the church.
00:10:51.000 This is where everything is happening, and everything that results in Cucamulga begins there.
00:11:01.640 in Cucamonga,
00:11:03.280 Catholic. Anyway, they knew
00:11:05.300 the man. Benelli knew the man. He was a
00:11:07.260 good friend of his, and he had worked on
00:11:09.040 other committees
00:11:11.280 with him. He was the
00:11:13.280 rector of the
00:11:15.040 Pontifical Canadian College in Rome,
00:11:17.780 and his name was
00:11:18.900 Archbishop
00:11:20.600 Edward Gagnon,
00:11:23.240 G-A-G-N-O-N,
00:11:25.660 from Montréal. 1.00
00:11:27.140 From Montréal.
00:11:29.060 And a beautiful,
00:11:31.160 beautiful, beautiful man, very intelligent, spoke five languages, at least some ancient
00:11:38.720 languages also, was a moralist, moral theologian, and a canon lawyer. So he knew what he was doing,
00:11:46.060 he knew how to do what he was commissioned to do. And he spent three years meeting with every
00:11:53.540 single person who worked in the Vatican. And let me just explain this without getting too far
00:12:00.420 upbeat. This investigation, I was there, I was working in the Vatican at the time at the
00:12:08.220 information office, so I knew what it was. As a matter of fact, well, let me just get to this.
00:12:15.880 This investigation was a way for subjects to criticize their superiors
00:12:23.080 and not be quoted, not have to worry about revenge or retaliation. Because when you spoke
00:12:32.160 with Gagnon and you asked him, could you speak confidentially, he absolutely guaranteed that.
00:12:38.900 What he wanted was information. So this freed up a lot of people who all of a sudden,
00:12:45.580 for years, for their entire Vatican career, were ziplicked. They had no opinions. They didn't know.
00:12:53.820 They didn't know. They didn't want to see. They didn't look right or left. All of a sudden,
00:12:58.100 they could speak. So Gagnon gathered a lot of information about what was happening in the
00:13:03.760 Vatican. And his investigation took three solid years. And that's what he did full-time. This
00:13:11.860 wasn't a part-time deal three years to do you are talking about these figures and what they're doing
00:13:19.500 as if you're like right there with them like you're almost inside their head i know how but
00:13:26.680 our viewers are gonna wonder father you're yeah how could you you don't live inside their heads
00:13:35.640 How do you know all this?
00:13:37.340 Friends do live inside the hands of other friends.
00:13:41.420 It's just, it's the way, it's the way friendship works.
00:13:44.760 You know a man's opinion before he says, I have had friends, and I'm sure so, the two
00:13:51.080 of you and our listeners, so you know what they're going to say.
00:13:55.720 You know the answer to a question that you posed from that.
00:13:58.380 I knew Archbishop Gagnon not well in 1974, but in 1977, I knew him well enough to ask him to preach my ordination.
00:14:12.300 And he was there as one of the consecrating bishops, along with Perkins Felice, who was the presider.
00:14:23.400 Also, in 1976, 77, I'm not exactly sure when, but it was during the middle of his investigation, he came to live in our house and lived by invitation, by my invitation and Monsignor Mario Marini's invitation.
00:14:45.760 We invited them for security purposes to come and live with us.
00:14:51.620 Why? I'm not going to get into that whole story because that's its own book.
00:14:54.760 It's called The Syrian, if you want to know.
00:14:57.720 But we invited him because ours was the safest house in all of Rome, perhaps all of Italy, perhaps all of Europe. 0.63
00:15:10.720 For the reasons of being Monsignor Capucci, which is another story.
00:15:15.760 But we had federal guards, police, the Italian police, and Israeli van across the street,
00:15:22.960 and the Syrian embassy 24-7 outside our doors.
00:15:28.440 So Gagnon's life was threatened.
00:15:32.720 Archbishop Gagnon, when he started investigating all of these matters that were very delicate
00:15:37.900 matters, his life was threatened.
00:15:40.440 And his office and his chambers at the Canadian College were ransacked.
00:15:49.360 The only thing that the ransackers stole were documents, nothing else.
00:15:56.740 I mean, there were things that could have been stolen, some of them were, no, just documents.
00:16:02.480 Then he started receiving threats against his life.
00:16:05.640 He was never afraid.
00:16:08.120 And that wasn't the point.
00:16:10.440 He just didn't want to be killed before he finished his work.
00:16:16.020 I'm serious.
00:16:17.500 A man, you would love this guy.
00:16:19.320 You would love him.
00:16:20.060 A man of real dedication, real faith, lovely sense of humor.
00:16:24.920 And the three of us, Gagnon, Marini, and myself, got along royally.
00:16:29.520 And between the three of us, we know an awful lot of people who worked in the Vatican.
00:16:37.320 And Benelli, for one, Zanoni, Zanini, those are two different people.
00:16:43.820 And the Secretary of State, Croce, and on and on and on, different people.
00:16:48.760 So we had all of these connections.
00:16:51.060 And therefore, I was the youngest, very wet behind the ears.
00:16:57.280 I listened a lot.
00:16:59.420 I didn't give an opinion.
00:17:00.960 What would my opinion have been worth to these men?
00:17:03.420 Nothing.
00:17:04.660 But I listened a lot.
00:17:06.660 And because I worked in the information office for five years of the mannequin, I had access to do everything.
00:17:15.140 I mean, I walked into, the only place I couldn't walk into was the Pope's study.
00:17:20.380 I'm serious.
00:17:21.880 You didn't do that.
00:17:23.280 But every place else, I had free access to.
00:17:25.900 And I knew people and spoke to people.
00:17:30.000 And I guess I was friendly enough, friendly kind of American, not a threatening American.
00:17:35.300 Right. And people get along with me. Well, I think they still do to some degree anyway. Some people.
00:17:42.600 Indeed. So, Luis, you first met Father Murr. You heard his testimony.
00:17:49.700 Why did you decide to make a documentary series on this rather than just, you know, you could have just had him for an interview?
00:17:57.240 Why the documentary? What did you feel you needed to accomplish?
00:18:00.380 You know, John Henry, when I first heard Father Merck's story, I thought, wow, this is incredible.
00:18:10.900 And then I thought, how is it possible that nobody has made a documentary about this?
00:18:18.380 You have the Vatican, you have a secret investigation, you have a very powerful people, and you have Father Merck, and he was there.
00:18:29.140 I mean, you almost have everything you need for a Hollywood movie, but the difference is this is a real story, and I thought we had to bring it to the screen, you know, that's why.
00:18:45.620 And you know, Luis, if I may add to your opinion, just briefly, they talked about making a movie of this whole thing, but Brad Pitt was unfortunately booked for another movie.
00:18:59.140 Okay. So Father Cardinal Gagnon, of course, very central to the story. You explained that
00:19:05.740 he was the rector at the Canadian College. How did you get sort of the insights out of him?
00:19:15.840 Because you seem to have a bead on him that sort of nobody has. Like you're a fly on the wall.
00:19:22.920 I don't know if you want to give it all away, but what happened with the preparation of the report?
00:19:28.100 And as it was delivered, how did that play out?
00:19:32.260 I have always in my life, you want to go into a little bit of psychology,
00:19:37.260 I never had an older brother being the oldest in my family, right?
00:19:41.240 And I always wanted an older brother.
00:19:44.300 And probably for a selfish reason, I could blame him for things.
00:19:48.760 I want to blame for everything in the family because I was the oldest
00:19:53.060 and I should know better, right?
00:19:54.600 But I enjoyed the idea of an older brother, and most of my friends, my very close friends, are all eight years older than I am, 13 years older than I am.
00:20:08.040 And I enjoy, this may sound schmaltzy, but I enjoy their opinions, their seasons, and they know what they're talking about.
00:20:18.180 I would talk to my own peers and I don't know what they knew about this much about they knew
00:20:24.780 about life as much as I did so who wanted to I knew what I thought all right but I was looking
00:20:30.240 for a lot of answers for everything else and these older men and older women Mother Pasqualina was a
00:20:37.440 was a very very good friend of mine she was uh she was in her late 70s when we met but I listen I
00:20:47.040 listen, I listen. I like
00:20:49.260 their philosophy of life. These are
00:20:51.140 people who lived through a lot
00:20:53.400 and managed to keep
00:20:55.380 their heads attached to their
00:20:57.120 bodies, which
00:20:58.760 was kind of a trick in
00:21:00.860 the Vatican. And the other part is
00:21:03.580 Gagnon
00:21:05.380 finished his report.
00:21:08.880 He, again,
00:21:09.400 was living with Mario
00:21:11.000 Marini and myself at the
00:21:13.120 Lebanese residence.
00:21:15.060 and Archbishop Capucci, let's not forget him.
00:21:22.160 And he asked me on three different occasions,
00:21:25.660 because we're dealing here with three different popes,
00:21:30.080 without going into all of the details,
00:21:33.080 on three different occasions to drive him to the Vatican
00:21:35.940 to deliver his conclusions.
00:21:40.140 The whole dossiers that he had, the dossiers,
00:21:43.100 the report that he had after three years of investigation, which I did. I drove him to each
00:21:51.260 appointment, one with Pope Paul VI, one with Pope John Paul I, and then a third with Pope John Paul
00:21:59.920 II. I'll tell you what was a revelation. Was Gagnon's reaction after his audience with the
00:22:08.180 Pope, with the Popes, each one, because the reaction was different. Again, without going
00:22:14.220 into detail, his reaction to each audience with each Pope was different. When he came
00:22:20.500 down the elevator and I was waiting for him with his car, with the car to take him home
00:22:25.300 or wherever, you can see his reaction on his face. And it didn't take him long, maybe 30
00:22:33.060 seconds into the drive back home where he released all of the attention that he had
00:22:42.520 being built up and for the audience and told me how things went. I got to share a lot from him
00:22:50.180 that nobody else would know. I just did. The same with Mario Arrini, the same with the many other
00:22:56.160 priests that I met, great men. I met some real characters, some to be very, very, very careful
00:23:06.440 of. But I also met a great number of saints and scholars and wonderful friends.
00:23:13.160 What then happens to this report? You delivered it three times with the cardinal to the various
00:23:18.400 popes. Where is it now? Why have we not heard of it? Because this is a massive report on the fact
00:23:24.400 that the architect of the new mass was a confirmed mason,
00:23:30.500 this report has not ever been released.
00:23:35.160 And it's 50 years old.
00:23:36.680 It's now 50 years old.
00:23:38.920 You would imagine that it could be in the archives opened.
00:23:43.620 Most of the people, most of the people are,
00:23:45.380 I think I'm the only one who's alive from the whole,
00:23:49.100 not really, I'm serious.
00:23:52.000 But Cardinal Gagnon, when he left, he left in disgust after he talked to John Paul II.
00:24:00.920 He turned his report over, his copy of the report over to Cardinal Odi in the Congregation for the Clergy.
00:24:09.760 And this sounds like I'm making this up, but all of this you can read in the Observatory Romano,
00:24:15.900 you can, in Time Magazine, it's all there.
00:24:18.140 someone or someones
00:24:22.920 broke into the congregation of the clergy
00:24:26.640 and stole the documents
00:24:29.740 out of a strong box safe
00:24:32.600 I mean this is a safe like a bank would have
00:24:37.060 this isn't a little tinker toy kind of thing
00:24:40.100 this is the real deal
00:24:41.620 they entered so I mean it had to be somebody who knew
00:24:45.320 who knew because you don't open to just like this, like that. I don't think among a lot of
00:24:52.820 the clergy, there are a lot of scoundrels, but very few, I don't think, I think very few know
00:24:57.980 how to crack safes. But somebody broke in and stole the final copy. It was the last copy.
00:25:07.300 Gagnon did not remain with a copy. When he left, he gave it, he gave his copy to Cardinal Odi,
00:25:13.420 who put it in safekeeping, he thought. I've asked a couple of people that I knew in the Vatican,
00:25:19.920 they've since retired, but several years ago, I asked them while they were still there,
00:25:25.060 if there was any possibility of getting copies that Gagnon gave to Pope John Paul I and John
00:25:32.940 Paul II, because he gave each one. He gave also the first to Pope Paul VI, who rejected it.
00:25:42.620 That's another story for another day. He couldn't deal with it. I told you he was a little bit weak. That was his weakness. He just didn't want to be confronted with these problems. The magnitude was tremendous.
00:25:57.380 So there were at least two copies, two full copies that were given to the pontiffs.
00:26:03.700 No one knows where those are.
00:26:05.720 Well, they should certainly have been filed.
00:26:07.780 They should certainly be protected in the Vatican in the archives somewhere.
00:26:12.900 Nobody knows where they are.
00:26:13.940 I'm asked, could you find out, do they exist?
00:26:17.360 Are they still around?
00:26:18.520 And what I would have to go through to get permission to read them.
00:26:22.060 I knew what some of the things said because I helped Gagnon put them together.
00:26:27.380 When he asked for my help, I certainly did. But I wanted to see the actual result. Nowhere to be found. Nowhere to be found. Nobody knew anything.
00:26:40.100 Luis, you're going to be bringing this documentary out, but to also be in the very places where a lot of this occurred.
00:26:51.380 Why was that important to you?
00:26:53.320 You want to sort of reconstruct, as it were, Father's experiences, what he went through.
00:26:59.040 And how are you going to take it sort of beyond where Father went in the book?
00:27:03.860 Because time is passing, and suddenly many of the people who lived through this event are no longer with us.
00:27:13.460 But Father here is here, and believe me, he has a very good memory.
00:27:20.460 Sometimes I ask him one question, and I get a story that lasts 20 minutes.
00:27:27.500 Luis, just don't ask me what I have for breakfast.
00:27:29.460 but it's wonderful because he remembers the people the places the conversations
00:27:38.480 and i believe we have a duty to have these memories for the next generations and why the
00:27:47.260 places why why are you going to be going to film in rome and etc etc why there because i want people
00:27:54.140 to film, they are
00:27:56.060 inside the story.
00:27:58.340 We went to Rome,
00:27:59.920 the streets,
00:28:01.380 to the churches, and the
00:28:03.880 places connected to
00:28:05.760 this event.
00:28:07.720 And I have to say that filming in Rome
00:28:09.960 is beautiful.
00:28:11.860 But it's not always easy.
00:28:13.920 There are tourists everywhere,
00:28:16.600 cars everywhere,
00:28:18.140 and sometimes
00:28:18.820 when we finally have the
00:28:21.820 perfect shot,
00:28:22.680 someone talks right
00:28:25.380 in front of the camera
00:28:26.660 but I love it
00:28:28.260 because they are the real places
00:28:31.300 I don't want a documentary
00:28:32.820 with only people sitting in front of the camera
00:28:35.720 I want the audience
00:28:37.260 to feel the realm that
00:28:39.280 Father and Mer knew
00:28:41.620 we are using
00:28:43.200 all photos, historical films
00:28:45.440 and scenes that we are going
00:28:47.520 to recreate
00:28:48.320 and I want people to feel the story
00:28:51.860 not just hear it
00:28:54.280 that's the way
00:28:55.860 more or less. Please God you get access
00:28:58.340 to some of the, because I mean
00:29:00.260 a lot of it takes place in some pretty special
00:29:02.260 places, so please God you'll
00:29:04.320 get access that way sometimes
00:29:06.300 that would be really wonderful
00:29:07.920 Father, so when you think
00:29:10.340 back on these times and
00:29:12.060 all the things
00:29:14.220 that you lived through, how much of
00:29:16.220 this came sort of direct
00:29:18.320 from the people involved and
00:29:19.860 And what questions still remain, even for you today, your conversations, because they spanned from Marini, Benelli, and Cardinal Gagnon centrally, but then also involved some of the bad guys, if you will, in the story, whom you also encountered.
00:29:36.360 I remember one of those encounters was with Cardinal Baggio, a combination for the bishops, which we're getting more and more into today because what Cardinal Baggio, who is in charge of the bishops of the world, of naming them and checking out what they were doing and what they were saying, the control of all the world's bishops was under Cardinal Baggio's control.
00:30:06.360 And what he did was he named all of the most liberal, progressive men that he could, not necessarily the holiest, not necessarily the wisest, not necessarily the most Catholics, the most Catholic in their thinking.
00:30:29.300 No, no, no. He politically and morally liberal. That's what he did.
00:30:36.360 And he was rebuilding the Episcopal Sea.
00:30:40.360 Now, this is exactly what happened today.
00:30:43.660 This is exactly what happened today.
00:30:45.860 What stopped Baggio, I was kind of crazy to say this,
00:30:49.560 but was the bullet of a would-be assassin hitting the Pope
00:30:54.800 and the Pope's obligation and the Pope being very close to death.
00:30:59.660 And when he came out of his coma,
00:31:02.440 one of the first things he asked for was to speak with Gagnon,
00:31:05.380 to find Gagnon and bring it back.
00:31:08.000 Because Gagnon had told him that there were plots against his life.
00:31:14.000 And he did.
00:31:15.080 I remember Gagnon said, I said, well, what did the Holy Father say to that?
00:31:18.840 John Paul II, what did he say to that?
00:31:21.440 And he said, he said, the man is either too holy or too naive.
00:31:27.720 He said, who would want to kill the Pope of Rome? 0.87
00:31:32.700 Who would want to kill the Pope of Rome? 0.97
00:31:34.400 I'll list as long as my arm and the leg, too. 0.97
00:31:42.700 There are a number of people who would want to kill the folk for their own reasons, diabolical reasons. 0.94
00:31:49.480 There were some real scoundrels. 0.97
00:31:51.240 They were worse than scoundrels because they were evil people. 0.88
00:31:54.860 A scoundrel is just somebody who's trying to get away with evil. 0.95
00:31:58.340 I met some people who were evil to the core. 0.97
00:32:01.320 They were evil to the core.
00:32:02.440 I consider Cardinal Bajo one of those men 0.98
00:32:06.380 Horrible
00:32:08.040 And wanted to redo the Episcopacy
00:32:10.920 So he could, what?
00:32:13.160 Control the church worldwide
00:32:15.380 He wasn't quite able to
00:32:17.940 Because John Paul II died
00:32:20.840 And then came Ratzinger
00:32:24.060 Pope Ratzinger
00:32:25.160 Who wasn't going in that direction at all
00:32:28.960 And he started
00:32:30.180 He made sure that gooding bishops
00:32:32.340 were named. Bishop, for example, of San Francisco, California, of Tyler, Texas.
00:32:40.020 The other thing, all of these good men were consecrated bishops. And there was
00:32:45.380 a seriousness coming back to the church that unfortunately today was wiped out during the 0.95
00:32:52.900 Punter Francis. There's something, Father, you need to add. And that's what we talked about when
00:32:57.360 I was with you there in Spain about a year ago now, we spoke of how Cardinal Baggio got to replace
00:33:06.100 about half the world's bishops all of a sudden. Because normally in the time that a, you know,
00:33:14.160 head of the congregation of bishops gets to act, it's not that many years. And so there's not going
00:33:20.120 to be a whole bunch. If you're not, you're not going to name half the world's bishops. You'll
00:33:24.100 name a number. But, you know, depending on the length of your term, you're not going to do that
00:33:30.740 many. Yet for Cardinal Bajo, unlike for any of his predecessors or those who came after him,
00:33:37.280 he named more. Why is that? Because Pope Paul VI decided that there should be a retirement age
00:33:45.380 for bishops. And that retirement age was 75. So we had bishops, as I told you before,
00:33:53.460 And even though John Henry, we have bishops who are almost 100 years old.
00:33:58.060 And when a bishop was named a bishop, just like priests as a pastor, when they were named
00:34:04.440 a pastor, it was for life.
00:34:07.360 You didn't quit at 75.
00:34:09.480 You died with your boots on.
00:34:11.440 You know, that's it.
00:34:12.740 Well, all of a sudden, at 75, all of these bishops around the world had to retire.
00:34:18.720 Now, not all of them were accepted, right, going off their retirements.
00:34:23.460 But when Bodger came in, he made sure that they were all retired, especially those who
00:34:29.060 were the most Catholic-thinking.
00:34:31.860 Their retirement wiped down a whole segment of Catholic bishops who were all replaced
00:34:38.860 with free-thinking.
00:34:41.620 Let's just put it that way.
00:34:42.460 I'm not going to say Masonic.
00:34:44.100 I don't believe that.
00:34:45.320 But free-thinking bishops.
00:34:47.600 Luis, you say you're doing this documentary.
00:34:49.820 is not meant to replace the book,
00:34:53.040 but how do you feel it's going to complement the book?
00:34:55.360 And where are you at today with regard to filming and doing it?
00:34:59.880 Where do things stand today?
00:35:01.480 Father Merz's book is our starting point,
00:35:04.960 but we are going further.
00:35:07.160 We are looking at all newspapers,
00:35:10.720 documents, historical records,
00:35:14.360 and other testimonies.
00:35:15.840 Let me tell you something.
00:35:17.580 the more we
00:35:20.060 investigate
00:35:21.740 the more questions we have
00:35:24.100 sometimes I think we find
00:35:26.440 two new questions for
00:35:28.140 every elsewhere
00:35:29.300 but it's a part of the work
00:35:32.500 we want to understand
00:35:34.720 what happened and
00:35:36.020 I want to understand father
00:35:38.200 that is not
00:35:40.560 easy
00:35:40.940 also what was
00:35:43.500 Archbishop Gagnon's role
00:35:46.120 What happened to this report, as you asked, Joe Henry, and what is going on behind closed doors?
00:35:57.020 We don't want to simply repeat the book, you know.
00:36:00.480 We want to investigate and bring new information to the audience.
00:36:04.760 Now we have the full interview of Father, that we have almost six hours interview.
00:36:12.620 so it's a big
00:36:14.700 interview
00:36:15.920 and now we are
00:36:18.480 filming the places
00:36:20.180 and at the same time
00:36:22.480 we are investigating the documents
00:36:24.940 and we are trying to
00:36:26.400 find this
00:36:27.700 this folder
00:36:29.440 this famous folder
00:36:31.220 that
00:36:33.320 does a lot of things
00:36:36.860 to tell us
00:36:38.060 but now
00:36:39.460 also we are making
00:36:42.440 the script finally finishing the script um making to the montage of the first episode
00:36:51.480 because we are going to to make a if if god wants uh documentary mini series of three chapters
00:36:59.840 their needs when you do such a thing to keep this going a lot of people do what they say
00:37:06.060 is a kickstarter or a thing how can people support you in in doing this work yes because
00:37:10.860 we want to tell this story
00:37:12.460 with freedom
00:37:13.780 so we are talking about a very difficult
00:37:17.100 time in the history of the church
00:37:18.860 and we are asking
00:37:20.520 some difficult questions
00:37:22.320 so it's not easy to
00:37:24.720 find the money to
00:37:26.080 do this
00:37:27.880 mini-series
00:37:29.380 so we want to follow the facts
00:37:31.660 we are looking, as I said, in the documents
00:37:34.460 and we must
00:37:36.500 be clear about
00:37:37.500 what we know and what we still need
00:37:40.460 to prove it there's a lot of things to do um there's the part the difficult part no
00:37:47.720 and the funding we're making a documentary like it's not a cheap thing to do especially when you
00:37:55.740 want to make three episodes high quality we have already filmed a lot but we still need
00:38:02.660 They have to finish the project.
00:38:04.940 So if you believe the story needs to be told,
00:38:09.020 I invite you to be part of it.
00:38:12.560 And everyone that's listening to this interview
00:38:17.680 can visit our website.
00:38:19.800 It's murder33.com.
00:38:22.520 So they can know more about the project
00:38:26.040 and have support.
00:38:28.940 We know, we've been talking about it for years,
00:38:30.900 there's not only this investigation,
00:38:32.380 There was other investigations done more recently.
00:38:37.140 There's the Fatima file from Our Lady Fatima, the secret, all of which are being kept secret,
00:38:44.920 not revealed, even though by rights they should be revealed because the faithful deserve to know,
00:38:52.900 for goodness sake, Our Lady's message and warning Fatima should have been made known.
00:38:58.940 I haven't asked for it to be made known.
00:39:02.380 How is it that the characters that are in your book as well, but that are supposed to be the
00:39:12.700 popes, don't see fit to do heaven's bidding, but despite all their talk about, oh, we're
00:39:19.800 transparency, transparency, they're not transparent at all.
00:39:23.980 Not even when heaven demands it.
00:39:26.020 They're not transparent whatsoever.
00:39:28.160 Nothing at all.
00:39:29.560 The crazy thing is, and I just heard this again the other day, in regards to Fatima.
00:39:40.500 I have something interesting to say about Pius XII in Fatima too.
00:39:45.080 However, regarding Fatima, there was a Monsignor, I am ranking Monsignor, who said the following.
00:39:53.740 He said, I have no time for any revelations that talk about violence done to the world.
00:40:09.400 Well, excuse me, Monsignor, who are you?
00:40:13.080 Are you kidding me?
00:40:14.900 So I'm going to ignore a message from heaven because I don't like that.
00:40:20.160 It doesn't go according to my criteria.
00:40:23.740 I mean, this is amazing that they let these people function as priests and administrators.
00:40:32.680 It's incredible.
00:40:34.480 And, excuse me, but the present government that we have in the Vatican today, since Pope Francis, they pick and choose what they want.
00:40:50.760 And if it doesn't go according to their program, which is the remaking of not only Catholicism, but Christianity.
00:41:00.180 Somebody said to me the other day that it's like they're inventing a new religion.
00:41:05.480 I couldn't disagree.
00:41:07.180 I couldn't disagree.
00:41:09.500 If what is conflicts with what they want things to be, they will reject what is.
00:41:20.760 easily, and just go on for their pie-in-the-sky nonsense. So this is a real problem. How it's
00:41:29.000 going to end, I don't know. But, I mean, I do know. Christ wins. One thing that I wanted to
00:41:33.960 say about Pius XII and Fatima, the Holy Father had a vision of the son of Fatima in the Vatican
00:41:43.160 Gardens in the 1950s. I believe it was 1950. And he was shaken by that. He saw the dancing
00:41:54.540 son of Fatima in the Vatican Gardens, after which he was immediately taken back to his
00:42:03.080 residence, the Apostolico. And Mother Pascualina saw that he was shaken and gave him a tea
00:42:12.340 immediately sat him down, and he told her what he had seen. Now, I know this from her. I know this
00:42:19.120 from Mother Pasquale. And she said to him, and Holy Father, was there a message? Was there a
00:42:27.160 message? Or just this, I mean, not, or just, just the dancing son. Oh my gosh, this is a phenomenon.
00:42:36.660 it. I don't mean it that way, but I mean, was there a message? And he said only one word. Now,
00:42:42.400 I don't know if the one word he heard or it came to him. I don't know. But he said one word. Mother
00:42:48.520 Pasqualina told me this herself. And that word, apostasy. Apostasy. I wrote this in 19, and I
00:42:56.660 shouldn't say in 2015, when I wrote The Godmother, before anybody was really talking about apostasy.
00:43:03.800 He hit it right on the head.
00:43:07.100 Apostasy came to him.
00:43:08.500 And Mother Pasqualina, a God lover, very intelligent woman,
00:43:12.380 but she wasn't sure what the word meant.
00:43:16.100 I mean, today we use it so frequently because it's what's happening.
00:43:20.720 It's actual.
00:43:21.920 It's the reality of things.
00:43:23.640 But in the 1950s, apostasy.
00:43:27.380 Who would be talking about apostasy?
00:43:30.400 She went and looked it up in the dictionary.
00:43:33.200 apostasy, to get the definition. That's why it remained branded in her memory quite, quite,
00:43:39.840 quite well. The one thing that Pius XII saw or felt or experienced or heard in that vision of
00:43:48.500 the dancing son of Fatima was the word apostasy. From the top down, as we know in Fatima,
00:43:57.900 the message of that which which goes into it a little bit more in detail from the top
00:44:03.260 of the church down from the pope down it is amazing it's very interesting timing too father
00:44:09.260 because in the light of history and the accounts we get later on while it might not have been heard
00:44:14.680 at the time uh you have all these references to apostasy cardinal odie talking in 1990 in in third
00:44:24.140 secret has nothing to do with Gorbachev. The Blessed Virgin was alerting us against apostasy
00:44:28.920 in the church. Then Cardinal Chiapi, personal friend of the papal theologian and papal theologian
00:44:35.740 to Pope John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, in communication to Professor Baumgartner,
00:44:43.520 says, in the third secret is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the church will
00:44:48.660 begin at the top. Padre Pio, even in that famous interview with Zavala, talks about apostasy in
00:44:56.200 the church being the third secret. It is stunning, Father, that there are actually quite a few
00:45:01.940 references, but nobody's sort of putting this together because we had the third secret told us
00:45:09.460 in 2000, and it had nothing to do with apostasy, only with some vision that was received and
00:45:16.120 nothing more. But John Henry, John Henry, don't tell me you believed that. You didn't believe
00:45:20.780 that. No, because I didn't believe it. I don't know anybody who did. I'm serious. I don't know
00:45:26.080 any human being who believed that. Paula Pasqualea told me this in 1977, I guess, 1978,
00:45:35.900 this vision of Pius XII.
00:45:41.400 She died in 1983, so yes.
00:45:44.600 If we don't believe that, we are forced to stomach
00:45:49.600 a very uncomfortable would-be fact.
00:45:54.760 That is that John Paul II, the beloved John Paul II,
00:45:59.520 intentionally allowed for a piece of misinformation,
00:46:07.820 at least, or disinformation,
00:46:09.820 to be spread to the entire church
00:46:12.220 in that they said they were revealing the third secret.
00:46:18.000 And they didn't.
00:46:19.220 I don't know how you worked that one up. 0.58
00:46:20.960 Because if John Paul II was anything, it was Mary.
00:46:26.380 He had a great devotion to Mary, the mother of God.
00:46:29.520 I can't imagine him not wanting that to be out, that whole secret.
00:46:37.260 And he, remember too, he grew up in the time where every Catholic,
00:46:42.360 every Catholic, almost everyone else in the world too,
00:46:44.940 but every Catholic certainly knew that there was a third secret of Fatima.
00:46:48.900 That was no secret.
00:46:50.620 That there was a secret was no secret.
00:46:54.240 And that he had access to that.
00:46:56.600 I often thought if by some crazy fluke of fate, the sickle finger of fate, I was elected pope, the first thing I would do after saying hello to everybody on the balcony, and I wouldn't be saying, I'm going to say that, right?
00:47:14.620 But I would immediately go to look in that little box, be the secret of that.
00:47:21.360 I want to see that.
00:47:22.440 That's the first thing I want to do.
00:47:23.900 I don't know. A lot of strange things happen. And you know, a lot of strange things happen
00:47:30.440 in the Vatican due to politics. For example, there's no mention of China
00:47:37.260 consecrating bishops illegally because the politics call for a different attitude, right?
00:47:45.600 So, I mean, a lot of those shenanigans go on.
00:47:48.840 Father, you said recently in an interview that's actually gone around the world now that
00:47:52.760 you believe that Benedict was sort of forced out of office, which would be very strange because
00:48:03.040 by canon law, that would negate his resignation. But what are your thoughts there? Why would you
00:48:10.920 say that now? How old was he when he resigned? 85. Yes. 85 is a ripe old age. And when you realize
00:48:21.220 that you can't do, you can't stop, you cannot prevent things.
00:48:27.980 They're out of your power.
00:48:29.980 You're the pontiff, the Roman pontiff.
00:48:32.900 After Jesus Christ, the greatest authority we have on earth, 0.86
00:48:37.100 you're powerless to act.
00:48:40.160 And what you want done isn't done.
00:48:43.820 As a matter of fact, it's undone.
00:48:47.260 Because you have people in the Secretary of State
00:48:49.680 or in other congregations of the Vatican running the show.
00:48:53.040 I remember one of the lines in who knows what movie it was.
00:48:57.960 They said to the Secretary of State,
00:49:00.540 I'm a roly-poly Italian in the movie anyway.
00:49:04.140 He said, and what is your role here?
00:49:07.040 He said, is the Holy Father's role to say what he thinks?
00:49:13.620 And it is my role to tell him no.
00:49:16.660 this is this is i mean i'm putting it quite simply but you have a lot when you're surrounded
00:49:25.960 by these people telling oh no no no holy father holy father please you can't do that
00:49:30.540 you have no idea what the ramifications of that oh holy father don't do that oh holy father don't
00:49:36.560 say that no no no no no oh you'll make so many enemies here excuse me an 85 year old man you
00:49:43.480 don't think he's going to be inhibited by all of that? Certainly would be. Just psychologically,
00:49:49.200 purely out of the situation, the reality of being 85. This is a tough deal. Now, when you've got a
00:49:57.660 plot, you've got people stealing your documents, the butler publishing these. This was insane.
00:50:07.640 Where are the people who are supposed to be protecting the Holy Father? That's my question.
00:50:12.860 They weren't there. Why weren't they? Why weren't they? I think it's an obvious answer.
00:50:21.220 They didn't want it. And they didn't want him. You know that when he was elected, he barely won.
00:50:28.280 He barely won the papal election, Cardinal Ratzinger. The man who was very near being elected
00:50:36.260 was a man by the name of Jorge Bergoglio.
00:50:39.780 And he was the man that the liberals,
00:50:42.440 the progressives, wanted.
00:50:44.140 They resented Ratzinger.
00:50:45.800 And they did their darndest to get rid of him.
00:50:48.980 And they succeeded.
00:50:50.540 They just made life impossible for him.
00:50:53.920 He says, and keep this in mind too,
00:50:56.580 people forget this.
00:50:58.940 I spoke to Ratzinger many times.
00:51:01.120 He was a very shy man, very timid.
00:51:04.760 He really was.
00:51:05.460 I mean, people think he was this—I remember them calling when he was appointed to the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, they called him God's Rottweiler.
00:51:17.240 Oh, he was this German police dog.
00:51:21.840 That wasn't him at all. 0.96
00:51:23.780 That wasn't him at all.
00:51:25.140 So to take a shy man, a timid man, a man who only wanted good for everyone, and to play him, that's what they did.
00:51:34.220 So I don't think that his resignation was really, truly, completely free.
00:51:39.680 Why a documentary? Why now? And why do you think this project is important?
00:51:44.540 Well, actually, I didn't think it was important. Seriously. But again, I didn't think my book was important either.
00:51:52.720 Not that I didn't think it was important. I didn't think it would be given the importance that people are giving it today.
00:51:58.280 I wrote it because I was convinced, erroneously, thank goodness, I guess, that death comes at 72.
00:52:08.720 And I wanted everyone in my family dying at 72.
00:52:11.740 They just did.
00:52:12.560 That was it.
00:52:13.540 And I was approaching that, and I said, I better get this on paper, because it's an historical fact, and people should know it.
00:52:23.000 People must know it, especially in light of what's happening today.
00:52:26.260 That's why I wrote it.
00:52:27.360 I'm astounded by its success
00:52:31.720 I really am
00:52:33.380 I'm very thankful for it, don't get me wrong
00:52:36.160 but I'm surprised by it
00:52:38.340 the same thing when Luis talked about doing a documentary
00:52:41.980 on the book
00:52:44.660 and on that segment of my life
00:52:47.020 I said, well, if that's what you want to do
00:52:49.740 I didn't really see the great importance that I do today
00:52:54.100 not especially after Luis has done so much work
00:52:57.380 and I've seen the progress of it
00:52:59.820 I was very impressed with the workmanship
00:53:02.020 and I think it's very good because it's getting the story out
00:53:07.060 and this is a story that has to be told
00:53:09.280 and Luis, I'm telling you
00:53:11.900 it has to be told today
00:53:13.440 because this is how it began
00:53:17.360 it all began in the 1970s
00:53:21.040 right after the council
00:53:22.020 and it has not really stopped.
00:53:24.680 What we're seeing today is a continuation of all of that.
00:53:28.960 And I thank you both in your own capacities
00:53:32.880 for helping people to see that.
00:53:35.940 It's time we wake up.
00:53:37.920 Thank you, Luis.
00:53:38.860 Thank you, Father, for joining me for this.
00:53:41.160 And let's pray together that this documentary does make it.
00:53:45.980 I pray that you find many more interesting things to put forward.
00:53:50.080 Again, people can go to murder33.com.
00:53:55.600 Is that correct?
00:53:56.440 Yes.
00:53:57.120 For more information and to be able to support this effort.
00:54:00.400 Thank you once again for joining us.
00:54:02.000 And if you would, please, Father, give us your final blessing.
00:54:05.560 Encantado.
00:54:07.260 Benedizio de Omnipotentes, Patrons, et Filius, Spiritus, Santus, et Manet Semper. Amen.
00:54:14.280 Amen.
00:54:15.320 Thank you, Father.
00:54:16.000 Thank you, Luis.
00:54:16.860 God bless you and God bless all of you.
00:54:19.180 And we'll see you next time.
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