The King's Hall - 2026 New Christendom Press Conference Recap - The War For Normal

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00:00:35.780 This episode of the King's Hall Podcast is brought to you by Mount Athos,

00:00:40.120 the Dodd Law Firm, and Curios Capital.

00:00:56.600 well welcome to this episode of the king's hall podcast i'm eric con joined by two unusually

00:01:08.920 handsome hosts oh co-hosts if you will wow pastor ben garrett hello happy to be here thanks for

00:01:16.460 having me on you're one of the haunted cosmos guys indeed but also the author of a new book

00:01:23.100 that's right i almost said the wrong guy get that smirk on your face

00:01:28.920 just tell us a little bit about this fantastic book that you just wrote this new book is called

00:01:34.360 killing lust fighting for pornography in or that's not the title that's actually not the

00:01:42.820 title stays in the title is killing lust fighting for purity in a pornographic age

00:01:51.060 I feel like see how I got there. I feel like that kind of changes things. It does a little bit. Instead of being a promotion of pornography, it's not that. It's actually the opposite. It's a book about practical and spiritual equipment that men and women actually can use to mortify the sin of lust and also that parents can use. It's got a lot of resources in there for parents. It's got homework.

00:02:13.820 It's basically meant to be a resource that pastors and individuals can use with one another in counseling as they counsel through lust of all forms, but especially sexual lust and the use of pornography.

00:02:26.980 Yeah, very good. And that's open for pre-orders.

00:02:29.720 That's right. It'll be shipping out around July 6th, I believe, but you can order it right now at newchristianpress.com slash killing lust.

00:02:36.740 Very cool. Well, great work. I've read it.

00:02:39.440 Thanks.

00:02:40.580 Another co-host, Kevin Griffin, Pastor Kevin Griffin, you've read the book.

00:02:43.820 i have read the book it's excellent you've read it a couple times i've read it yeah quite a few

00:02:48.880 times it really is excellent though ben you did a great job really proud of you thanks thanks it

00:02:53.120 was a lot of fun kevin uh kevin michael griffin right here actually thank you yeah that's right

00:02:57.780 let's make sure we found out that our two kevin's are also both kevin michaels yeah like i've worked

00:03:03.620 with these men for years yeah and it just recently came up yeah did you know no you didn't know i had

00:03:10.500 no idea. Caleb didn't know either. Yeah. Really? Crazy. That is crazy. I don't know what the

00:03:14.280 chances of that are, but it's low. Yeah. Gotta be. Is your middle name Michael? My middle name

00:03:21.380 is Scott. Scott Stads. That's right. My initials are BS. Oh, that's good. Uh, Kevin, you also read

00:03:32.420 another book that we've got launched. People can purchase this now. Uh, but that's by a pastor,

00:03:37.620 adam madden uh who gave a great talk at the conference it was awesome indeed but i guess

00:03:42.360 for people who are wondering about that book what's it about uh who who would find it useful

00:03:47.300 yeah i think in particular the um young men would find it particularly helpful it's about the

00:03:54.500 productive household and really one of the things i noticed especially after the talk is just the

00:04:01.320 sheer amount of young men who were going up to Adam and just wanting to pick his brain. And I

00:04:08.400 think the book, one of my favorite things about it is, and I told, I told Adam, this is that when

00:04:14.520 you read his book, you get to know, you get to meet the man. Um, it really is like, if you talk

00:04:22.580 to Adam, uh, that is his book. Oh yeah. It is just Adam Madden and, and it's very pastoral.

00:04:29.260 he's a great kind man and the amount of people young men that went up to talk to him after the

00:04:35.040 conference was really cool uh but it's just about the productive household it's about um seizing

00:04:40.560 more opportunities as as much time as you possibly can with your people uh he took what's the phrase

00:04:48.120 uh con yeah he talks about content and context content and context it's sort of like an

00:04:54.120 extrapolation of deuteronomy 6 but you actually have to be with your people yeah in order to be

00:04:58.960 able to fulfill that so we talk about a lot of ways that you can do business in such a way that

00:05:03.240 it's an outflow of the productive household which yeah i think will be really helpful for young men

00:05:09.100 particularly as they're you know getting set out to establish a godly home and yeah think through

00:05:15.940 what he he the problem he talks about is like fragmentation so i think that will be really

00:05:21.480 good ben i want to transition to you because one of the best parts of the conference we'll get into

00:05:27.420 that today but the what like broadcast announcing is that basically what you were doing the live

00:05:34.200 field you know sideline announcing of the new christendom games first of all i don't know who

00:05:38.760 gave you guys like the responsibility and permission to do that i think it was maybe you

00:05:44.380 genius no it wasn't me actually i forget how they came up last year but i think it was just we so

00:05:51.500 we didn't have the space for it last year yeah it was a really cool space just wouldn't support that

00:05:56.580 but this year tate got a new venue and they had like a whole pa system they were like hey it's

00:06:02.240 yours if you want to use it you know like you rented the whole thing yeah and there were like

00:06:05.240 on-field camera guys oh yeah that guy was killing it yeah like steven spielberg give him a call

00:06:11.880 he was crushing but then they gave brown and i microphones and the microphones could be heard by

00:06:18.420 everyone not only in the stadium but like in the neighborhood that was around the stadium yeah

00:06:24.020 and yeah we had a really good time really good time my favorite part was you would use a metaphor

00:06:28.900 and i could clearly tell that you weren't sure where the metaphor was going to go

00:06:34.080 that is somebody how many times do you compare people to like a motorcycle oh well this one

00:06:39.020 guy's name was harley oh so i kept his harley quinn davidson was what i called him and uh yeah

00:06:45.000 i was like this guy you got to work in every steel horse reference i wanted to get more into

00:06:51.440 Jon Bon Jovi, but I thought that may be too deep of a cut. So I avoided that, but Harley had a

00:06:55.860 great attitude about it. Shout out Harley. He was really cool. Yeah. And we had great sponsors. 1.00

00:06:59.580 We did. Uh, Mount Athos, uh, their guys were out. That's right. Actually, uh, we're giving

00:07:04.620 some pre-workout to the guys. Really? So we have them to thank for the incredible performance that

00:07:09.120 we saw. I don't think, uh, their guys weren't competing this year, but, uh, last year they did

00:07:13.940 and some stallions. Oh man. You want to talk about, you want to talk about a pair of tree

00:07:19.780 trunk thighs on giovanni yeah oh my goodness yeah and then desmond he looks like the italian

00:07:28.000 superman i know yeah i always said we passed both of them when we were doing the golf scramble ethan

00:07:33.200 and i passed them and he was like which one's which and i was like oh desmond is the handsome

00:07:38.960 one except i didn't say handsome i said hot if i'm being honest yeah yeah but two specimens

00:07:48.220 they were there yep man athos we also had kiros capital kiros our guy steven doing great work

00:07:54.320 great guys and then we also had the dodd law firm yeah right yeah loved getting to know michael dodd

00:08:00.260 yeah played golf with him played god he was dressed like jason day and the thing is he was

00:08:04.700 good he is good he's a lawyer yeah i mean i feel like that's part of the job yeah you know but also

00:08:09.480 like the i think he's in the carolinas or something but like they have so many beautiful courses they

00:08:15.800 do this is why kevin griffin is so good at golf by the way florida that's where you learned you

00:08:22.280 cut your teeth if only that was true it's kind of like a mecca though right yeah it is yeah oh yeah

00:08:29.280 no but those sponsors really helped uh make the i mean the the games were really really great this

00:08:35.020 year yeah even better than last year and couldn't have done it without those sponsors so just shout

00:08:38.720 out to those guys links are in the description of this episode for how you can support them

00:08:42.820 we would ask that you go follow those links even if you don't think there's anything for you there

00:08:46.680 check out what they're doing pray for their work and see if there's a way that you can

00:08:49.840 become a patron of theirs because you won't regret it if you have a need that they can fulfill these

00:08:53.900 guys will deliver in 2023 indigo sundries became one of our sponsors at the time their business was

00:09:05.720 little more than a side hobby generating a couple hundred dollars a month but because of their

00:09:09.740 partnership with us. And because all of you chose to support them, they've grown enough to make it

00:09:13.600 their full-time livelihood. This is what happens when Christians support Christians. Our communities 0.56

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00:09:26.180 Email us at advertising at newchristendompress.com.

00:09:34.380 Yeah. And all of our sponsors, great job with the conference. Couldn't do the work without them.

00:09:39.740 I want to get into that now. We're sort of doing a recap. We've had the week to kind of think about, you know, what was good? What were the things that we really appreciated most? There's a lot of good stuff to talk about. But Kevin, maybe I'll start with you. Just what are some of the highlights in your mind from the conference, getting to see, shoot, we had, I think it was over 1500 people this year.

00:10:00.900 we started four years ago with like 200 people in the church if that and that was great but like

00:10:08.220 just it's changed so much it has i think one of my favorite things i i have two favorites

00:10:15.820 we're right off the bat speaking about the size of it is just seeing the sheer amount of families

00:10:21.760 that we had which i thought was awesome like all the kids people were really excited to bring their

00:10:27.860 wives out that maybe came last year and just came just, just themselves. So to bring out all the

00:10:34.400 families, that was a blast. Um, everyone, the, the vibes were high, really enjoyed that. And then I

00:10:41.080 would say the other big one for me was just, we had really put out the call for our people,

00:10:45.560 uh, for hospitality, like just to really press into this weekend and, and the church just showed

00:10:52.260 up big time. It was such a blast. They put in so much hard work. Couldn't have done it without

00:10:57.380 them and got so many comments just about the kindness of, uh, of our people, which is always,

00:11:03.360 you know, this makes you excited. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think it's really cool too, because

00:11:08.080 you look at how the whole event went, uh, everybody was talking about it. It's nice to

00:11:14.880 actually, you kind of hear about people online, maybe listen to a podcast, but then you get here

00:11:19.460 and the stuff is real. Like the community is actually a thriving community. Uh, Ben for,

00:11:25.160 for your part we did a pastor's panel you did yeah with us fielded questions it's funny that

00:11:31.960 came about kind of last minute yeah because we had to rearrange some stuff but it may be one of

00:11:38.200 my favorite parts i i heard that from a lot of people the pastor's panel ended up being in terms

00:11:43.680 of the conference talks and sessions that were like in the venue not just hanging out that that

00:11:49.420 was the highlight for him uh getting to hear and i think it was for me too because it allowed us to

00:11:53.860 get out of podcast land in like this niche topical, um, stuff that we do a lot. That's oftentimes

00:12:01.100 motivated by what we're seeing online, like what's in the zeitgeist. Yeah. And it allowed

00:12:05.600 us instead to show really what I, what I think I can say is our true passion, which is pastoral

00:12:10.980 ministry and being able to speak truth into people's lives and situations. The people asked

00:12:16.400 really great questions, like very good pastoral questions about church life and family life and

00:12:23.040 their own personal devotions and holiness. And, um, I think that it was also really important

00:12:29.000 even for our people to see all of the pastors up to all of their pastors up there interacting like

00:12:35.940 that, because it's actually not that frequent that we get all of the session together, fielding

00:12:41.000 questions and then answering at the same time. And I I've heard from multiple of our own members

00:12:45.720 that it was like, no, that was, it just inspired a lot of confidence. Uh, it made me feel more

00:12:49.960 secure in where I'm going to church. Yeah. Kevin, there, there was a lot of questions we answered

00:12:54.740 one-on-one as well. Oh yeah. Uh, I guess if you would just speak to kind of the flavor of those,

00:12:59.740 did it surprise you? I know for my part, I thought, wow, it seems like a lot of the church

00:13:06.560 actually had not a lot of pastoring is going on and it was a neat opportunity to talk to guys.

00:13:12.920 Uh, a lot of young guys asking about life direction. Yeah. Uh, did you see that? What,

00:13:18.840 what was kind of your breakdown of that oh definitely it was it's so crystal clear and

00:13:23.620 this has happened every conference but it seems to even be a growing thing where the young guys you

00:13:29.560 the young guys especially but but there is a there was just such an age range this year i would say

00:13:35.440 but the young guys the amount of conversations aware that were actually tearful conversations

00:13:41.860 Yeah. I mean, I heartfelt like these guys are just so touched that a pastor like like an older man was just willing to tell them just the truth to give them some direction and guidance.

00:13:56.220 And I was so encouraged by those conversations because there's always the feeling that they're going to they're just going to be so obsessed about one particular topic or another.

00:14:07.740 You know, Kings Hall, you guys do a great job of touching all these cultural issues and things.

00:14:14.920 And you think that that's going to be what everyone comes for and wants to ask those questions.

00:14:19.560 But more often than not, all the questions are just like men who just are looking for a father and good pastoral care.

00:14:28.700 And when they receive it, I mean, genuinely, I'm not kidding when I say, like, I know we all had them.

00:14:34.180 yeah guys left in tears yeah um and and encourage and like thank you so much i i needed to hear that

00:14:41.180 i appreciate you being willing to just be honest with me and i feel like i have a good new direction

00:14:46.520 yeah i mean talk about the the zeal that these men are coming to the event with that i mean i mean

00:14:52.940 like real zeal for real things they're very important and weighty for their own lives and

00:14:58.960 it wasn't like, I didn't feel like it was a lot of like, tell me about the post-war consensus

00:15:04.200 or it was all like personal pastoral issues. Oh yeah. And, and they're willing to come to you

00:15:11.280 and ask the question, which is already kind of a daunting thing, right? To just go to someone

00:15:15.440 you've never met before, except seeing them on stage and, and say like, Hey man, I like, here's,

00:15:20.580 here's what I really want. Or here's what I'm dealing with. Can you offer anything for me?

00:15:24.760 but then to, uh, hear the honest pastoral answer that sometimes pushes back. Um, but as always

00:15:32.160 trying to encourage them to virtue and for them to have the humility to take it and say, man,

00:15:36.940 thank you so much. Because it means that they rightly understand that, um, that being told

00:15:43.220 something that maybe they don't even want to hear right then and there doesn't mean that it's not

00:15:48.040 coming from a place of love, but actually it is a display of courtesy that you're willing to tell

00:15:53.620 this person, this is what I honestly think. And, you know, you can take it for what it's worth,

00:15:59.420 but this is it. And they're willing to hear it. They're willing to be young men as young men

00:16:05.520 should be and say, okay, you're probably right. You know? Um, and then we've already heard feedback

00:16:11.140 after the conference about how multiple young men are actually taking practical measurable steps in

00:16:19.260 their lives to act on that council. So it's a weighty thing, but it was really encouraging for

00:16:24.700 us to see that kind of humility and zeal come together in the young men. Yeah. And speaking

00:16:29.260 to zeal, Kevin, we had a couple of guys in nights battle garb and it was cool. Oh, they actually

00:16:36.260 made us a crusader helmet. Uh, I made Dan Burkholder put it on. So I have a photo of that

00:16:42.300 and I sent it to the guy who made it. And it was funny cause he was like, he must be a large man

00:16:47.320 because that's a large helmet and it does not look big on him because dan is he's got to be what

00:16:52.180 like six four i think so yeah yeah to my hobbit size he looks like about eight feet tall but i

00:16:58.640 was like that was really cool yeah um so just seeing sort of like different vibes different

00:17:04.180 people we also had talks which i thought were really good we can talk about some of that

00:17:08.340 it's an interesting conference because it's not really centered on the talks

00:17:12.860 we do I hope we provide good content I think we do but the fellowship aspect that most people are

00:17:20.200 looking for the picnic on Sunday maybe my favorite part yeah that was awesome just having our people

00:17:26.780 out we're hospitality sharing food with people and the vibes were so high that day oh yeah people

00:17:33.600 are like I've never this is crazy it's like living in a world in another world yes you know you get

00:17:39.520 to experience that. So yeah, just, no, it's, it's funny because, you know, you say like the

00:17:44.640 vibes are really high and they were, it was one of the highlights for me for sure. But it's funny

00:17:48.920 because going into it, I was more so thinking like, I can't wait to go home and lay down.

00:17:55.300 And if I really had it my way, I might not be going to this picnic right now, but it's a

00:18:01.180 testament to the means of grace, you know, the communion of the saints, just simple communion

00:18:04.700 with brothers and sisters in christ and how it enlivens you and uh it was awesome like just

00:18:11.320 genuinely a fun time yeah we had folks you know we had the kids doing their battle over on the

00:18:17.040 lawn we had folks playing cornhole and chess and and the knights did tell me by the way they were

00:18:23.240 like the kids were like whacking us good and and they even said they were like they were finding

00:18:27.440 the weak spots in the armor like behind our legs and attacking there nice like they knew what to do

00:18:33.280 yeah good kids smart kids that was really cool uh kevin let's talk about the talks

00:18:39.940 um i'm trying to think well brian went first he kind of set the tone with the war for normal i

00:18:46.640 guess in your kind of your retelling of it what is the war for normal i i know you weren't

00:18:52.620 necessarily part of the planning committee but like the elders knew we're doing the war for

00:18:57.280 normal why that why is that so important there's a lot of as you mentioned there's a lot of political

00:19:03.020 issues going on but we chose to focus there and kind of your take on why yeah um it's the big

00:19:10.740 focus here at the church and the more people you talk to i think the more you realize all all the

00:19:17.660 topics that were that you guys pick up all the time the political stuff the cultural stuff it's

00:19:23.020 so helpful yeah it's absolutely necessary to get right but just being normal people like if we

00:19:29.820 can't do that. To look ahead at Brian's sermon, he preached on love. And if we cannot love well,

00:19:40.400 all the rest of it doesn't matter. And so genuinely just being normal people, that looks like being

00:19:46.600 great husbands, being great wives, raising your children up in the discipline and instruction of

00:19:52.100 the Lord. These just normal, simple, faithful things we have to master. Um, and, and if we

00:19:59.220 don't, none of the rest of it matters and we're not going to get the outcomes that we're looking

00:20:04.180 for. Um, so yeah, Brian kicked it off in an incredible fashion and great and encouraging

00:20:11.260 talk. I was super, it was a classic. So they move just like absolutely nail it and give a lot of,

00:20:17.580 give people a lot to chew on. Yeah. Yeah. I remember Ben, especially like he was talking

00:20:21.660 about magical thinking, you know, it's really easy to have all these concepts floating in the

00:20:27.140 ether. Uh, but yeah, just your thoughts on that. Like, why is it important that we ground things

00:20:31.300 and like, what do we actually have to do and what is actually practical for our people?

00:20:35.980 Yeah. I was thinking about for a lot of the days leading up to it. And then during the conference,

00:20:41.280 if I had to give like the one sentence answer to somebody, I'm like, what do you mean by normal?

00:20:46.240 It would just be, it's the peaceful and quiet life. That's godly and dignified in every way.

00:20:50.400 Like that's the normal thing, you know? And I think that Brian was, was really touching on that

00:20:56.280 kind of idea when he's talking about this magical thinking of you have these theories in your head

00:21:01.020 and you have these goals and you have these dreams and like, fine, I guess, if you do the

00:21:06.420 right thing with them. And how do you take the first step in doing the right thing with them?

00:21:11.120 Well, it's by ordering your own soul to the true North star of Christ, kind of singing your life

00:21:17.600 and the key of Christ. And then also by extension, ordering your home to the ordinary duties that

00:21:24.120 you have. Like Brian has been saying this a lot lately, but you have to learn to love what must

00:21:30.820 be done and not try to think of it as something that you have to manage or even work around if

00:21:37.280 you get an opportunity. Like the ordinary duties of loving your wife and kids, of disciplining your

00:21:42.420 children, of focusing on education in the home, family worship, provision, however you can make

00:21:48.240 it happen. These are actually the great works that God set before us to do. And if we see them

00:21:54.220 that way as great works, then we will actually achieve the most normal life that we could

00:22:00.520 in our day and age and context. And I thought that that was one of the most helpful points

00:22:06.200 in the entire weekend was like, hey, ditch the magical thinking and just learn to love what

00:22:11.080 must be done. Do the thing that's in front of you with faith and ask the Lord to give you the

00:22:15.920 utmost joy in that, not in like playing around on the clouds. Yeah. It's interesting, Kevin,

00:22:21.980 because a lot of, you know, the perceptions outside of Ogden can be one thing, but as you

00:22:27.820 mentioned, we're talking about parenting, households, family worship. Uh, I told you one

00:22:32.600 of the things I enjoyed was seeing your kids and wives just at the conference. They also enjoyed it.

00:22:37.920 you don't have to be 30 years old to benefit from it no yeah absolutely not my this is the

00:22:44.800 second year in a row now i've gotten to bring my my oldest daughter and she comes with me for the

00:22:49.580 entire time and she still talks about steven wolf's talk from uh from last year on home talk

00:22:55.920 oh yeah so good yeah that's a that's a that's a constant talking point um and she just loves the

00:23:01.860 people. She loves being there. Uh, she, she's gotten to know, uh, people's kids. And so she

00:23:08.720 gets to say hi, see friends. Um, they, they had their St. Brendan's school booth. And so they

00:23:15.060 were going around handing out some merch and, uh, they were so sweet. They were cute. Yeah.

00:23:21.060 So yeah, absolutely not. I, it's a family affair. It really is. And it's, it's just so,

00:23:26.300 such an encouraging time. Um, it's cool to even see your boys, like as they're getting

00:23:31.540 older and being more involved in to work the booth and ship some books. And I think one of

00:23:36.740 the things I love is it brings our community together where everybody's legitimately proud

00:23:41.400 to be a part of the work. Yeah. You know what I mean? And as your kids grow older, you know,

00:23:45.320 God willing that they have the same level of excitement. Yeah. It was funny. The, we did like

00:23:50.260 the live on a cosmos thing and my kids have listened to a couple episodes, but I don't think

00:23:55.200 they get that it's dad right um they talk all the time about brian but they never like connect

00:24:02.340 the dots are they listening or watching they're listening yeah so yeah uh yeah so i get that but

00:24:07.640 that was the first live show that especially abner my oldest could really appreciate yeah and uh i

00:24:14.440 went home that night and was able to get home in time to like say good night and actually tuck them

00:24:19.240 man. And Ambrose and Abner both were like, dad, I want to tell you a story tonight. Can I tell

00:24:25.840 you a story? And they were like, and I want to sound like you. Like it was the first time they

00:24:30.820 seen it. And my wife was telling me that was the most locked in that they were all weekend. They

00:24:36.200 were like, so pleased that dad was up there. I love the photo of them sitting on the couch.

00:24:41.680 Oh yeah. That's just a cool experience. Apparently like I just called them up. Cause I, you know,

00:24:46.480 you don't see him for five days. Yeah. And they were there. I was like, Oh, come on. Like just

00:24:50.800 get close to me. And, uh, one of the film guys, old Matt was like, do y'all see what's happening

00:24:56.840 right now? There are children on the stage with Ben, get the cameras rolling. So he did me a

00:25:03.460 solid with that. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Uh, Kevin, I want to ask you, as you think about

00:25:08.520 what you hope people will take home and do from the conference, what, I guess, what comes to mind,

00:25:14.780 in terms of building, you know, key takeaways for, and probably for most of the people who

00:25:21.060 are there, what are they, what are they going to need to think through?

00:25:22.920 Yeah, man, the thing that we just kept talking on over and over and over again, whether it was in

00:25:29.080 the pastor's panel, whether it was in questions afterwards is being faithful with the little

00:25:35.580 things. Yeah. Being faithful with the little things. We have to be masters at it or we're

00:25:41.820 just going to fail. And so I think people were just fired up, getting fired up about that. Like,

00:25:48.580 oh, you mean I can go home and do this like right now? I can do this right now. We had,

00:25:57.160 we had several young men where the, the takeaway for them was, wow, I actually need to go home

00:26:03.260 and apologize to my father who I've been fairly disrespectful to in my cage stageness of all of

00:26:11.060 these issues yeah red pill issues and yeah uh i i think it was just that and that's not fancy

00:26:19.640 that's not flashy and i think that's the glory of it is that everyone knew that leaving that

00:26:25.240 conference i i know exactly what i'm supposed to do yeah one of the things that i liked was

00:26:31.700 there there was that very clear call to action on the little things and again like you can do

00:26:36.900 this today. It's not some massive time investment where you're not going to start seeing fruit for

00:26:42.120 years. You can do this today and your life will get better today. But there was still, especially

00:26:47.200 for parents of young kids like myself, a lot to chew on for ordering your life now so that in the

00:26:52.980 future you see more, actually like more normal in your children and their children. Like your talk,

00:26:59.340 I think was really good for that because it got me thinking a lot. It was on the long house,

00:27:03.600 how to escape the abnormal longhouse and and the thing that i loved about it was the the emphasis

00:27:10.440 of the talk was not look at all these jews that gave us feminism although they did and like we 0.97

00:27:16.300 should hate that right but the emphasis was so how do we build up our daughters especially to be 0.99

00:27:23.920 normal godly women yeah what do we need to cultivate how do we need to be coaching them 0.79

00:27:28.600 How do we encourage them so that we don't let them fall into this poisonous trap, but we instead give them the life of normalcy and godliness and beauty?

00:27:37.240 So it got me thinking a lot about like, what am I going to do for my daughter to try to raise her into a normal woman?

00:27:45.880 And I thought that was great.

00:27:46.780 Yeah, that was something Kevin and I were talking about afterwards was just how different it will be for our girls to hear talks like that versus like proto-feminist whatever. 1.00

00:27:58.600 you know, cause you're, you, you know, 1.00

00:28:00.620 that's a good thing that they're actually thinking through it at a young age.

00:28:03.940 Didn't Nora say like, that was my favorite talk.

00:28:07.520 Oh yeah.

00:28:08.060 She loved, she loved your talk.

00:28:10.980 This is my favorite thing.

00:28:12.420 So like the week prior, like I preached,

00:28:15.200 but it's like the little girls in the church will like bring me dessert the

00:28:18.560 next week. And I'm just like, I am a sucker. 0.99

00:28:22.760 It's true. 0.60

00:28:23.380 Like I just melt and I'm like, they're the best.

00:28:26.460 but yeah that is part of the reason like why are we talking about the long house

00:28:30.440 it's actually thinking forward looking i have a granddaughter now yeah and so we're like what

00:28:36.660 kind of world are we going to leave them and are we going to call them into you know like christian

00:28:43.060 education are we going to call them into their vocation as godly women we're not going to push 0.99

00:28:47.560 the boss babe culture uh we're not trying to push them away from the home we want to encourage

00:28:53.000 motherhood all those good things uh but yeah it's kevin i just want to get your thoughts on that

00:28:57.720 like why is that so important in creating a new normal for our people where like they're going to

00:29:04.400 hear about feminism our girls will they're and they're never going to be like wow that's so weird 1.00

00:29:09.860 they're going to think like boss babes are weird yeah oh yeah i can you imagine like my my daughter's 0.61

00:29:17.360 11 and Nora she's oh my lord she is literally like an angel she is like the sweetest little

00:29:24.820 girl it's insane I know I love her so much and I this is what we were talking about is

00:29:30.520 she listened to your talk on this and she walks away and she goes man isn't like isn't being a

00:29:36.880 woman wonderful isn't that amazing like it's it's incredible it's such a glory it it filled her with

00:29:43.180 zeal to to press into the to being what god has created her to be and it and you see it she goes

00:29:51.800 home she's so good with with uh her siblings you know she wanted to make um some she she like put

00:29:59.740 in all this work to pack us lunches oh like for the conference yeah yeah to get all the you know 1.00

00:30:04.960 get all the snacks and and have all the she you know she she brought uh coloring books in case

00:30:11.160 she saw her friends oh my goodness and it's just that is like the sweet like the most thoughtful 0.93

00:30:17.160 i know and it's weird too because so many people think like oh the women in ogden are so they must

00:30:23.320 be so oppressed i like i've never seen a more joyful group of women oh yeah truly yeah i mean

00:30:30.320 there was even uh we have a chiropractor lady in the church and right before i gave my talk

00:30:34.860 she came backstage and she was like pastor con i've been praying for you can i give you an

00:30:40.600 adjustment right now before you go up. So I got like an adjustment and she's like, the Lord be

00:30:44.900 with you, be strong and courageous. And I was like, our, our women are simply the best. Yeah.

00:30:49.440 They really are. And you think about that when you go up there and you're, you get to a line

00:30:53.660 in the notes or whatever, and you're like, ah, and then you think of old Mrs. Y brew. Yeah. Oh,

00:30:59.940 okay. No, I need to, I need to say it. And I need to say it like I mean it. Yes. Yeah. Like go get

00:31:05.060 them. Be confident. I'm curious other talks that resonated with you guys. Andrew Isker was there.

00:31:10.300 He gave a great talk, really excited.

00:31:13.600 He's got a book upcoming, the seat of Abraham, who are the people of God?

00:31:17.400 That's going to be great.

00:31:18.760 So he talked a little bit about that, but Ben kind of that topic, why is it important?

00:31:22.900 And yeah, like, what'd you take away from it?

00:31:25.560 I definitely thought that it was maybe like Isker in top form.

00:31:30.220 Yes.

00:31:30.620 He was in, in the pocket and was really enjoying himself, but in a way that was not distracting

00:31:36.280 from the content.

00:31:37.300 No.

00:31:37.520 The thing, again, like this was the theme for me.

00:31:40.300 A lot of the titles of the talk, like the long house and Zionism, and I, you know, you could

00:31:45.600 read those titles and think, oh, this is them railing on their enemies and that's it. And it's

00:31:51.720 not. And that includes Isker's talk on Zionism. It was a, we have to make eye contact with what

00:31:58.560 we have let infiltrate our country. And what's infiltrated it is this massive amount of

00:32:04.860 egalitarianism and cultural Marxism. And yeah, we trace back to the source and we can find the

00:32:09.200 source and analyze that. But more importantly, how do we just actually fight against it with

00:32:14.620 our own positive economy of holiness? And that was what I really loved about Andrew was, it was a,

00:32:21.040 it was a call up. I feel like all the talks were this way, but his, his also was a call up to,

00:32:27.940 but shouldn't we want better than that? And then here's the good news. You can have better than

00:32:33.840 that right now notice it see it for what it is make sure you understand where it comes from so

00:32:40.300 that you don't let it infiltrate your own house but then like here's the positive vision go pursue

00:32:45.380 the positive vision i love that the ability to talk about pressing cultural issues but to be

00:32:50.740 positive and pastoral like if i had to describe the conference in any way you know it was very

00:32:56.280 pastoral to me steven wolf is not a pastor actually this is a funny side note he said ben don't call

00:33:03.640 me Dr. Wolf. So Ben introduces him and he says, okay, he asked me not to call him Dr. Wolf.

00:33:09.760 So ladies and gentlemen, Stephen Wolf, PhD. He told me for like two years in a row now,

00:33:16.840 he's like, I really hate it when you call me doctor. And I'm like, all right, I promise I'll

00:33:20.480 stop. So you did, you stopped. Yeah. But, but even his talk was about, you know, reestablishing

00:33:26.500 norms, like again, the new normal, how does this come to pass? Way more philosophical. But again,

00:33:32.980 Ben, I still love that your daughter, who's 11, found even that talk very, very helpful.

00:33:38.100 Oh, yeah.

00:33:38.660 I mean, it's something that it does.

00:33:41.280 Stephen, for me, he challenges me to think more deeply.

00:33:44.120 Yeah.

00:33:44.900 And Ben, maybe you can speak to this, but it is philosophical.

00:33:48.260 But we do that even in the church.

00:33:49.660 Like you're going through Plato's Republic.

00:33:51.200 We want guys to stretch their legs a little bit.

00:33:54.240 Why is that kind of thing important to have a change of pace where you got pastoral, but

00:33:59.420 then maybe, Hey, something more philosophical, it's going to challenge your thinking.

00:34:03.720 Yeah. I mean, I think it, why would you listen to and enjoy a talk like Stevens? And we all did

00:34:11.040 and everybody did. He has a very unique pathos that he doesn't act like someone he's not. Um,

00:34:18.700 he doesn't act like Brian, you know, he's, he's not Brian, but you know, without a shadow of a

00:34:24.100 doubt with every single word he says, like that guy believes this down to the very bottom. He

00:34:28.700 believes what he's saying and he sandwiches it between these positive visions but then he gets

00:34:33.320 into the weeds of what i like to say is uh the the fertile soil of cognitive power so why do you read

00:34:41.680 period but then why would why do you read or listen to philosophy it's to gain cognitive power

00:34:47.600 and classically like in antiquity the reason that you want cognitive power is not so that you can

00:34:53.520 just like impress people. It's actually far from that. It's so that you can understand wisdom in

00:34:59.080 the good life. It's so that you can understand goodness in itself down to its essence. And what

00:35:04.400 I like about Stephen's talk is it's really similar to Aristotle and the Republic in a lot of ways.

00:35:11.440 And that it like, it takes these big abstract ideas and it takes them out of the clouds. And

00:35:17.780 then it says, so what is this in your own soul? Like if you want to create a normal life, first

00:35:23.980 of all, what is normal, you know, and you do all that work, but then he brings it back to like,

00:35:28.480 so if you want to create a normal life, which is the peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified

00:35:32.900 in every way, and you want to see that outside of you, you can't expect to see it outside of you

00:35:38.900 if it is not true inside of you. And so the cognitive power is actually meant to be used

00:35:43.840 as a disciplinary tool on your own heart and soul.

00:35:47.380 And that's one of the things I appreciate most about Stephen

00:35:50.420 is he's able to communicate that to an audience,

00:35:53.240 oftentimes without even saying,

00:35:55.440 because he's not a pastor.

00:35:56.660 So he's not saying like,

00:35:58.300 and here's an illustration to help you understand that.

00:36:00.540 But you nonetheless get like,

00:36:02.180 just because he's a righteous man,

00:36:03.640 you nonetheless get the point

00:36:05.000 where he's telling you implicitly

00:36:07.940 and you have to do this for yourself

00:36:10.700 or else it's going to be fruitless.

00:36:12.420 It's the golden rule.

00:36:13.580 Like you love other people the way that you love yourself.

00:36:17.380 How do you love yourself?

00:36:18.880 How do we understand that?

00:36:20.280 And one of the ways we understand that is this study of philosophy to gain wisdom so that we can discipline ourselves.

00:36:28.120 Yeah, it was interesting too, Kevin, because it gets back to a lot of the things that create a normal Christian culture.

00:36:33.060 Think of our community.

00:36:34.940 They're not necessarily laws, just that.

00:36:39.300 But it's like codes of behavior, the way we treat each other.

00:36:42.380 uh you think about ogden you think about the refuge culture what are some of the things that

00:36:47.760 you think of that are like part of the norming of who our people are and while you're thinking

00:36:53.620 about that i was just you know like ethan pastor sen to me this is so funny ethan shows up and he

00:37:00.260 is like ostrich boots cowboy boots like there's a style to ethan yeah but it's somehow like rubbed

00:37:07.840 off on all of us like nobody ever had a meeting where they were like you will wear cowboy boots

00:37:12.920 yeah but then everybody after a while is like ben tried actually but before i think we caught on

00:37:19.380 goes to show how little gravitas no i had at least at the time it just took some warming up too 0.69

00:37:25.340 ben was like cowboy boots are cool and i was like that's so stupid but then he started to wear them

00:37:29.860 other guys did ethan did and i was like i'm not gonna say anything but there will be signs 0.90

00:37:34.560 i will have ostrich boots by the end of this and now everybody does well except

00:37:41.380 except for kevin kevin michael griffin is the last domino to fall one important thing to know

00:37:45.240 about kevin okay this could go a lot of ways you're from florida uh-huh uh we you have a

00:37:51.780 bizarre thing about you like even right now you are barefooted in the studio that is a fact

00:37:56.360 but that's not weird it's got a hippie vibe to it yeah it's you know and come on you don't have

00:38:03.540 cowboy boots that you wear yeah which is insane well i mean i had gigantic feet for one so so i

00:38:10.240 don't even know if they make them that size oh they make them that size are we sure oh yeah i'm

00:38:13.780 sure yeah i'm sure we'll get you a custom made we'll we'll look into it for the for the guys

00:38:19.080 we'll look in here's the other thing you need to know about kevin michael griffin is in and i mean

00:38:24.360 this in the best way oh boy but he is a man of principle and that means that when he settles

00:38:29.960 his mind on something he's not going to move that is true some might call that stubbornness i'm not

00:38:35.460 calling it that oh it's stubbornness i like to say it's stubbornness though in in you know used

00:38:41.660 for good and not ill you're yeah sometimes this is actually my favorite thing so you people don't

00:38:46.860 know this but you guys share an office and i will pass by or sit in my office and i hear like what

00:38:53.040 sounds like a fierce debate i'm like what is going on and you're having debates about food usually

00:38:59.860 Kevin and I disagree a lot on food

00:39:02.120 I mean you have some atrocious takes

00:39:04.060 On food for sure 1.00

00:39:05.840 Like un-American not to like ice cream

00:39:08.580 Someone say the worst food takes

00:39:10.100 Oh no

00:39:10.520 Come on

00:39:11.640 Let's be honest

00:39:15.680 We've had some of the finest scotch

00:39:17.860 Known to planet earth

00:39:19.280 That was a compliment that I said

00:39:20.860 This tastes like mustard and pickles

00:39:24.000 Who doesn't like mustard and pickles

00:39:25.220 It's not that we don't like them

00:39:26.680 It's that they literally know scotch

00:39:29.100 here's what really bothers me about that all right listen you'll go to like you'll you'll

00:39:33.720 watch sommeliers or whatever on on tv or youtube and they're like this wine it smells like it

00:39:40.460 smells like my grandmother's wedding dress that has been in her closet for 50 years yeah yeah and

00:39:45.480 and everyone's like oh what a profound insight from the sommelier and then i was like wow i'm

00:39:59.100 Tastes like mustard in pickles.

00:40:01.400 Here's what I would like to say.

00:40:02.780 Maybe you have a broken olfactory system.

00:40:04.660 I think that maybe we should go there before we start calling it like a moral issue, which

00:40:09.720 is what's been heavily implied.

00:40:11.680 It could be moral.

00:40:12.500 Well, yeah, I just I smelt it.

00:40:15.500 I was like, man, this is a pickle like this smells like a jar of dill pickles.

00:40:21.220 It was great.

00:40:22.400 Yeah.

00:40:22.680 Normally, I would say you can't be wrong about scotch tasting.

00:40:25.280 I didn't.

00:40:25.680 I haven't seen most people be wrong.

00:40:27.540 I didn't get invited back.

00:40:29.100 we, we will give Ben like Jack Daniels on the side. Yeah. Uh, but even this is part of our

00:40:36.020 culture. Kevin, I want to ask you cowboy boots. That's one of them, but also like the way women

00:40:41.900 carry themselves and the way they dress themselves and the way that they're sweet to their husbands.

00:40:46.880 There's so many things that you can't just codify in law. Yeah. But why is that important? As you

00:40:52.420 think about like our culture that people have thought at least a little bit about those norms

00:40:57.800 and how they shape a people. I think a big thing is like when people show up here, they, they have

00:41:05.280 an idea of what it's going to be like. They, um, they, it's like, they, they think it is sometimes

00:41:12.860 just a look of a vibe. It's, it's just, they have to act a certain way and, and all of those things,

00:41:19.880 and there's some truth to all of those things, but really when they get to, when they get here

00:41:24.880 and they start to get to know people, they just see like, well, these people though imperfect

00:41:31.940 are, are seriously pursuing virtue and, and they are really excited to see other people succeeding

00:41:41.040 as well. Repenting of sin, um, of, of starting to buy the dress where maybe it's been a lot,

00:41:47.340 you know, maybe, maybe they've only ever worn pants and, uh, and t-shirts.

00:41:51.140 But even on that one, like we don't tell people you must wear dresses.

00:41:55.020 No.

00:41:55.480 It's like people see the glory and then they just start doing it.

00:41:58.840 Yeah.

00:41:59.380 You know?

00:42:00.220 And I think some of that, like a lot of that is caught.

00:42:04.380 Yeah.

00:42:05.540 Imitation.

00:42:06.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:42:07.120 Yeah.

00:42:07.260 It's the customary law.

00:42:08.880 Yes.

00:42:09.240 And I think the most attractive thing is not just the look of it.

00:42:13.480 It's the heart of it.

00:42:15.320 Yeah. 1.00

00:42:15.400 They're like, oh, well, these ladies are really sweet and this is the way they dress. 1.00

00:42:21.140 that's really beautiful. There's something particularly beautiful about that. That's not

00:42:26.040 like, it goes much beyond just the outward appearance. It really is like the, all these

00:42:31.420 ladies have really kind hearts. Yes. I want to, I want to, I want kindness, like to come out of my 0.89

00:42:37.980 lips, like, like it does with that woman. That's a huge encouragement. And I think the aesthetic

00:42:43.520 plays into that absolutely uh the guys the guys um will come in and and maybe they they're

00:42:50.280 they're a little disheveled or they come in and they're like used to coming to church

00:42:54.920 uh again maybe in t-shirts or a ball cap yeah right and they come in they go oh man okay cool

00:43:01.920 um that wow these guys look nice like they're looking sharp you can kind of see the way the

00:43:08.500 men carry themselves yeah and there's a gravitas about you know ethan pulls this off really well

00:43:13.400 effortlessly you just like the gravitas of like dressing nice carrying yourself well um sort of

00:43:20.400 like be a man but not to kevin's point also not in the way i think a lot of people like they could

00:43:25.360 listen to hard men podcasts from the old days and they would come to the church and it was like a

00:43:29.720 chest pounding bravado like day one and then we're all like what are you doing yeah like we don't

00:43:34.880 that's not what this is yeah that's not dignified no yeah i i like the and we've actually used this

00:43:42.640 as a pastoral tool in counseling.

00:43:44.540 I know that I'm sure you have too,

00:43:46.800 where like you want the external

00:43:49.780 to reflect the internal, right?

00:43:51.180 So how do you order your household?

00:43:53.660 I've already said it.

00:43:54.340 It's by ordering yourself first.

00:43:56.200 And that's going to manifest

00:43:57.520 in carrying yourself in a certain way

00:44:00.700 that is considerate to others,

00:44:02.260 where you're a pleasure to be around.

00:44:03.960 And that includes aesthetically.

00:44:05.160 You're not tempting someone to sin, 1.00

00:44:07.260 you know, immodesty for women, especially. 1.00

00:44:08.720 You're also not like making everyone uncomfortable 0.98

00:44:11.280 by being radically under or overdressed.

00:44:13.580 You dress as fits the occasion.

00:44:15.340 And that can be a very good indication

00:44:17.320 that you are humble in your heart

00:44:19.560 and you're seeking virtue internally.

00:44:22.520 But it's also that pastoral tool

00:44:24.760 where if that internal humility

00:44:26.820 and pursuit of virtue isn't there in some area,

00:44:30.720 then we'll sometimes say like,

00:44:32.820 oh, you're wearing the head covering,

00:44:35.120 but it means nothing.

00:44:37.480 Like, what is that to you?

00:44:38.720 you're you it's actually heaping up condemnation on yourself yeah that you would have the gall to

00:44:43.840 wear a head covering and then go and speak that way to your husband yeah that is absurd and it's

00:44:48.240 a helpful way to help everyone including myself see with these tangible object lessons that it

00:44:56.260 actually has to be a reflection of sincerity because if it's not it's going to be picked 0.99

00:45:02.020 out right away and it's going to be worse than if you had just dressed like a slob yeah yeah i think 0.99

00:45:07.440 one of the other things kevin we talk a lot about it about hospitality and fellowship yeah i had to 0.99

00:45:12.640 laugh this week because every single event that i was at we'd be like an hour past the time frame

00:45:17.600 where we're supposed to be at a place like all of us and they have to literally close the building

00:45:21.380 down and everybody was like look i know you all love each other and want to keep talking you've

00:45:26.240 seen each other for five days in a row like you have to leave like you don't have to go home but

00:45:31.760 you can't stay here yeah but but i've been in churches where it's like people actually don't

00:45:35.920 like each other. There's not genuine friendships. Uh, but we, I think we work really hard on the

00:45:41.180 one anothering locally. And yeah, just, just hearing that was encouraging from outsiders.

00:45:47.000 Like, wow, like this is not how most of the church in America is functioning. Um, so why

00:45:54.460 so important on that? Again, I know you talk a lot about it, one anothering, hospitality,

00:45:59.580 cultivating genuine friendship. Uh, but why is it so important for a community culture to be that

00:46:04.780 way. Yeah. I, because it is the body of Christ. Like that's just what it does. So do you, do you

00:46:12.540 want to obey the Lord? Well, then it looks like you're going to have to be hospitable to one

00:46:18.680 another. You're going to have to serve one another, pray for one another, love one another,

00:46:22.540 admonish one another. Um, and, and on that point, I think that's one where we've really pressed hard

00:46:28.260 into as a community is, is the admonishment part is, you know, we, it got brought up a lot,

00:46:35.640 especially in our pastoral conversations. And, but even, even conversations, I was talking with

00:46:41.240 some of our people that had, we're kind of giving some counsel to some of the, um, to some of the,

00:46:47.360 uh, participants and, and you can just see that they're just not used to someone just telling

00:46:55.320 them the truth, you know, and being willing to confront a sin that they're seeing. And that's

00:47:00.980 a huge focus here. And I think it's like people are used to doing that. They're used to doing

00:47:05.660 that or actually exercising the muscle that is so atrophied in the church today. But it is

00:47:12.820 absolutely required if you are going to have friendship is you have to be able to have honest

00:47:17.460 conversations with one another so that you know who you are and you know who the other person is

00:47:23.280 and you're seeing each other rightly.

00:47:26.040 Yeah, even I was laughing.

00:47:28.400 I think the other night at church,

00:47:30.640 we were praising our people for the good job that they did.

00:47:34.860 But my security guy, Tony, our guy, Tony, known our guy.

00:47:39.940 Big dog, Tony.

00:47:41.140 This is my favorite part.

00:47:42.420 The tone zone.

00:47:43.140 He's just used to being a part of the body in that way.

00:47:45.660 Yeah.

00:47:46.280 And so he's standing behind me.

00:47:47.660 You got young guys asking like, hey, I'm really young.

00:47:50.620 I want to be a pastor.

00:47:51.600 Should I do this?

00:47:52.440 i give counsel and advice build your career build your family you don't have kids yet

00:47:57.620 focus on your household through most of your 20s like an elder is an older man we go through the

00:48:02.100 whole thing like you need to be patient and wait find godly men to mentor you through that season

00:48:06.520 whatever and you know some of the guys there were multiple of these conversations so it wasn't just

00:48:11.140 one one of the guys was like yeah but i just and he started in and it was so funny because tony goes

00:48:17.900 young man an older godly wiser man is giving you counsel i would really encourage you not to argue

00:48:23.980 with him but to receive it well and to think and pray about it and i was like now what was so funny

00:48:30.640 to me is like it also wasn't shocking because we do this all the time yeah like that's just the

00:48:35.420 culture that we're trying to build even to the point then where if somebody in our church comes

00:48:40.180 to us and they say hey this guy sinned against me or we got in a tiff we will say to them have you

00:48:45.940 talk to them yeah matthew 18 and and they're like well no sometimes well no you're like okay let me

00:48:53.360 coach you through this so actually i'm not going to step in at this point i'm going to coach you

00:48:58.340 on how to go have this conversation and especially if people are doing this for the first time

00:49:03.160 there's like a i'm going to do what but then once you've done it a time or two you realize like

00:49:08.820 oh this is like again establishing a new normal of just have a frank and friendly conversation

00:49:14.480 Yeah. It's so funny when, when someone's never done it before and you're like, okay, you have

00:49:20.820 to go do this and here's what you need to say. You need to make sure you, you get everything out

00:49:25.620 right. And actually address the issue. Don't tiptoe around it. Suddenly people become much

00:49:30.400 more willing to cover offenses. Well, I'm not sure it was rising to that level. I think I can get

00:49:37.400 over it. But then it's like, no, no, no. You've made your bed. Now you told me this bothered you.

00:49:41.460 Yeah, this is good for you to go and do this. I do this to you all the time. Go and do it for somebody else. It's an act of love. Yeah. And you should actually like maybe they need that more than anything else today from their brother who they slighted or offended or whatever. Like maybe they need it from you. Yes. And it's an opportunity to, again, be called up to greater degrees of righteousness. And yeah, genuinely, it's like you do it once. It's like jumping in the pool for the first time. You do it once and you're like, that's not so bad. Yeah. People like to make peace. Yeah.

00:50:09.920 Like if they're, if they're a Christian, they desire peace.

00:50:13.180 Yes.

00:50:13.600 And that will mean that like, you're probably not going to get into the, a knockout drag

00:50:18.140 out fight.

00:50:19.020 They're probably just going to be willing to hear you out at least.

00:50:21.900 Yeah.

00:50:22.280 Maybe there'll be pushback, but you both want the same thing.

00:50:25.660 So that means it's never going to be as bad as you think in your head.

00:50:28.180 Yeah.

00:50:28.620 Yeah.

00:50:28.900 That's a really good point.

00:50:30.340 We talked about pastor Adam.

00:50:31.900 He's got the book.

00:50:32.580 He also did a talk, which I found hilarious.

00:50:35.940 Oh yeah.

00:50:37.000 Really good.

00:50:37.740 Convicting too.

00:50:38.660 Yeah.

00:50:38.840 It was really good.

00:50:39.540 a lot of, a lot of practical things about household to think through. I've never heard a

00:50:43.640 person more like hilariously and helpfully use Southern metaphors. Like we were laughing about

00:50:53.120 the one where he said, you know, that guy has more lost than an Easter egg. And I like, couldn't

00:50:57.360 keep a straight face. I'm just like dying of laughter through the whole thing. Um, I, I would

00:51:02.420 just encourage people. We'll have the talks up. I think probably by the time this is out, we'll have

00:51:07.140 these talks up you have to check out pastor adams like it was just i mean when you're talking about

00:51:14.300 an engine of a home and you're referencing a 1990s square body chevy pickup and a 350 engine

00:51:21.760 like i'm i'm sold everybody's listening i'm in and it's funny because i was thinking about this

00:51:26.140 ineffective preaching he's been a preacher for many years i was like because of all the analogies

00:51:31.760 and the funny metaphors, I remember a bulk of the talk because I actually remember it like,

00:51:37.700 oh, square body Chevy's. Oh yeah. That's like, you know, wife is such an integral part of the

00:51:42.260 household. And I remember what he was talking about. Uh, just your thoughts on, on that,

00:51:46.720 the talk. Um, I know we talked about the book already. There's a pastoral warmth. I think

00:51:52.140 about Adam that I really enjoy and it comes out in his kids and his family, his wife,

00:51:57.140 maybe one more case for just like, I would hope that a family like that would become the new

00:52:01.220 normal for many churches oh 100 yeah my so my favorite part eric about about adam's talk

00:52:07.680 you know what i'm gonna say i think so you know what i'm gonna say he's he's talking about these

00:52:13.600 two new grandbabies and we got a boy we got a girl and benjamin your son as the girl she is

00:52:21.680 gorgeous oh she is so cute genuinely a cute new oh man yeah i mean especially when you get photos

00:52:28.180 like every day of her smiling but it turned into an obituary you did yeah it did and he said you

00:52:38.540 know i hate to break it to you all but the hard man eric khan is no more is no more no more and

00:52:47.700 it's so true he said in there he was like yeah my you know it used to be that my text with eric you

00:52:53.220 know it was we're talking about feminism and willem guge and all this stuff and now it's just baby

00:52:58.600 pictures and heart emojis there's been times where i've looked over at eric and he's just like

00:53:04.800 snickering as he's looking at his phone like and normally it's because like he typed up some tweet

00:53:09.740 that he's really happy with but then you'll go look over his shoulder and he's just looking at

00:53:15.240 his background which is a picture of his granddaughter my son was giving me a hard

00:53:20.020 time because he said dad you have like 27 save backgrounds every time i send you a photo as a

00:53:27.240 new background i was like well yeah you get a new background every day you get to see it you know

00:53:31.380 one's a smile one's a giggle i mean you can't be mad at a guy for getting a little emotion

00:53:35.580 some of that some of that granddaughter emotion oh come on yeah you it is funny actually uh we

00:53:41.740 were talking about this perception versus reality when people come to ogden i get this a lot and

00:53:47.080 actually it happened with ben when i first moved here i don't know if you remember this we had you

00:53:51.020 guys over to uh our house that we were renting at the time i do remember this but i've heard this

00:53:56.460 conversation like repeated many many times over the years and ben like at the end of the night

00:54:01.820 ben was like yeah thanks for having us over and he was like you know i'm kind of shocked you're

00:54:06.880 just like a normal dude yeah like i thought you were gonna be some weird autist because you're

00:54:11.760 you know, you're on Twitter and hard men podcast, hard men podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know,

00:54:17.780 you meet a guy, he's just a guy. He's just a guy. Like in a good way. Yeah. It's just a guy. You

00:54:22.680 can talk to him. Yeah. I think that's sort of one thing I would say about overall the pastoral

00:54:26.940 team. Maybe one of the things that I was proudest about is just seeing all the pastoring that was

00:54:32.800 happening there. They're great men. And I include you guys in that great men, but also like nobody

00:54:39.640 there is like, we're not like celebrities who don't like have a conversation, like a normal

00:54:44.240 person. You know what I mean? Yeah. I remember as a kid, like a kid, I was like 20. That's a kid,

00:54:50.120 right? Yeah. Okay. Seems that way. Going to these mega conferences where there was like,

00:54:55.140 I don't know, 10,000 people and people would stand in line to shake whatever celebrity

00:55:00.180 evangelical preacher's hand, you know? And like in the line, people were like,

00:55:04.240 oh i can't believe i'm dead and then you talk to him and like the interactions were just so awkward

00:55:09.940 you know and i look at that and i was like no like it was cool we were able to have this conference

00:55:15.120 where it's like we're all just people yeah uh but what we're hoping this would be like maybe my main

00:55:21.660 hope from the conference somehow that we're able to help others export they'll do it in their own

00:55:27.460 way right they'll have their own cultures it'll be unique to them and their people in place

00:55:31.240 but just to export some of the refuge culture how we do worship that other places would pick

00:55:38.940 up on that especially with pastoral care one anothering those sorts of things uh i'm sure

00:55:43.480 i'm sure you guys agree oh yeah i mean i think yeah yeah like the refuge camaraderie is really

00:55:50.760 special oh yeah and and it's very unique but i think one of the things we're trying to tell

00:55:56.060 people is that it doesn't have to be. It can be ubiquitous. If you just plant yourself in a place

00:56:02.140 that's a good place, good people, and you just insist on maybe even being the one who takes the

00:56:07.520 first step in cultivating a sense of friendship and camaraderie that is real, that is magnetic,

00:56:15.140 you know, and it attracts the right kind of people. And it attracts like-mindedness, which is,

00:56:19.960 you know, one of the fundamental building blocks of friendship is like-mindedness. And so, yeah,

00:56:24.760 it's like, we have that. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Like I like this better than any,

00:56:29.640 anything else, you know, but it's also, I want people to have their version of it.

00:56:34.360 And I want them to know that they just can, like, you can just make friends. You can just do that.

00:56:40.020 And sure. It may, it may take time and certainly takes effort. Uh, it still takes effort for us

00:56:44.920 to be friends, you know, but it is doable and it's well worth all of the work that goes into it.

00:56:50.380 Yeah, absolutely. Kevin, maybe one of the last things that we'll talk about was really cool to me. We had a pastor's breakfast, 60, 70 pastors from around the country. One of the things that kind of shocks me, whatever the perception of Ogden online, you know, and particularly what people say about us.

00:57:09.600 we had pca guys we had bible church non-denom guys we had guys from sbc we had guys from mark

00:57:20.340 driscoll orbit like we had guys from everywhere yep um which is kind of surprising like you might

00:57:25.420 think like oh we're just reaching like a very specific reform niche but i think there were

00:57:31.220 just a lot of pastors who were like no like we we see a lot of the cool things happening we want to

00:57:36.060 learn what you guys are doing. We learned a lot from them too. There's a lot of great stuff at a

00:57:41.820 lot of great places. Just curious your thoughts on that. Just the perception of like coming out

00:57:49.660 of the conference of like, wow, there's just so many varied people here that are interested in

00:57:53.440 these sorts of things. That seems like a cool thing. Oh yeah, absolutely. One of the things

00:57:58.780 that several pastors, and this has happened, we did it last year as well. And the pastor's

00:58:03.320 breakfast, we get into favorite things. And it's like, I think I have my favorite thing. And then

00:58:08.740 I remember, oh, but the pastor's breakfast, it was a, it was a blast. The guys are incredible.

00:58:13.720 And the thing is you, you just, when you sit down and you're, and you're willing to just say,

00:58:18.620 Hey, I just want to get to know you. And you find that you have so much in common. I mean,

00:58:24.740 almost everything in common. Um, and, and the pastors, especially like to see the hearts of

00:58:29.440 those guys it's so encouraging and so many of the conversations were like how can we do a better job

00:58:36.920 of pastoring how should we think about counseling um yeah people ask a lot about the leadership

00:58:42.400 guild yes they ask about the school they ask about how we manage parish load because we've got

00:58:49.080 you know effectively like six guys who are you know running uh how many if you count just member

00:58:56.500 families it's not just that that's 150 families just member families yeah so then like people

00:59:02.300 are asking like how do you manage that load like you guys are really intensive on pastoral care

00:59:06.580 like how can you afford to be that involved in people's lives like people really want to know

00:59:11.700 those things yeah and we had again just great conversations with those guys um so cool to see

00:59:19.320 i said it before i'll say it again like how much we have in common and there's just so many good

00:59:25.060 good men out there but also you just see um i i'm sure you guys each had these conversations of

00:59:32.400 these pastors who are just so tired like they are really they're really tired and i think they're

00:59:38.060 tired of fighting against uh so many of them their denominations they're fighting their

00:59:43.360 denomination for having even mildly right-wing views and i'm talking like barely center right

00:59:50.620 you know they get in trouble for that um i think they're dealing with feminism writ large

00:59:57.740 in a lot of churches they don't know how to deal with that i don't know what other issues i talked

01:00:02.300 to to a few guys that like they had a good relationship with the session yeah and they're

01:00:10.080 like the senior minister you know and they're really like i want to cultivate a good level

01:00:14.620 of trust and friendship with these guys and i really do respect them um but they're also there's

01:00:21.280 this like poison gas cloud of but if you go here we're gonna have a big problem well this is the

01:00:29.720 wild thing to me is a lot of people are going to be aware of like various forms of like denominational

01:00:36.620 online feuds relating to ogden but then like we have these guys here crac pca like you name it

01:00:44.000 they're all here and we're talking to them and they legitimately are concerned about this um but

01:00:50.280 they're like but we're also like this is one of the few places we're actually getting help on these

01:00:54.340 issues and like how to deal with them and we're sort of like under the gun we had uh people from

01:01:01.260 reform denominations who were like it leaks during the conference that like their pastor is like

01:01:07.180 attacking them sort of on social media yeah in presbytery meetings so like there's a hostility

01:01:14.700 and a contention going on where these people are like what do i do yeah and i think a lot of like

01:01:19.860 some of it too to your point about just the fatigue some of it is not even about cultural

01:01:25.640 issues some of it's like i want to institute psalm singing my church oh it's like i would

01:01:31.160 say that's the majority of it but if yeah like that was more what i was encountering but i just

01:01:36.300 figuring, you know, maybe it's just, I'm not like a big Kings hall guy. So maybe, but a lot of the

01:01:40.780 guys were like, yeah, I really want to get into Psalm singing, but my session is just like fighting

01:01:44.780 me tooth and nail on it. I'm like, really? You know? And so you walk through, like, it's okay

01:01:49.540 to take time. It's okay to try to introduce it steadily in ways that is more palatable to their

01:01:55.040 background and what they came from. But at the end of the day, it was, uh, it, it made me want to

01:02:01.240 make sure that guy left feeling encouraged like hey you feel like you're alone um your your

01:02:09.140 session is not have your back the why the women and the men in the church don't have your back

01:02:14.000 you're trying to just do your job and you feel like everyone's fighting against you and you're

01:02:18.260 kicking against the goads well here's one thing you're not alone we we have your back i will pray

01:02:23.780 for you but here's even more importantly like the lord is with you yeah seek to do the work with

01:02:29.180 faith and zeal, like ask him for the strength and watch what he does. And, and it may be after you

01:02:35.400 die, you finally get to start to, from the great cloud of witnesses, see the fruit of your efforts,

01:02:40.440 but great. Like that means that you're doing work that the Lord is not unhappy with. And he's not

01:02:46.100 going to, he's not going to fail to vindicate you or bear fruit with, uh, with the works done in

01:02:50.920 faith. So you're not alone. Like you have the spirit, you have Christ with you. And it's easy

01:02:55.900 for me to say, cause I'm here and we got a great team, but genuinely that has to be the attitude

01:03:00.760 that a pastor has. If the whole world is against me, like, so be it. It was, it was interesting.

01:03:07.920 One of the, I've heard, and I heard this from a number of guys, but one of the biggest pushbacks

01:03:12.660 they're getting, like not even the cultural or political stuff, it was simply, I'm, I've, I'm

01:03:19.680 coming to this conviction that we have way too many programs at our church and we need to have

01:03:25.320 more time to just be with one another and actually serve and do things together like for one another

01:03:33.260 more time for hospitality uh psalm sing they're interested in in these these kinds of these kinds

01:03:40.020 of things but when we tried to cancel the the you know wednesday night um bible study you would

01:03:48.440 have thought that someone died i mean that you were killing a sacred cow or whatever there was

01:03:55.520 just so many so many programs that were like well what if we just cut here i mean it's not a you

01:03:59.700 know it's not a big deal oh no yeah i actually remember one church i was pastoring at and we

01:04:05.880 got rid of like sunday school it was more like children's church yeah kind of thing but we got

01:04:10.420 rid of it and i figured it wouldn't be a thing because like like two people went to it out of

01:04:15.780 the whole church but people who didn't even send their kids to it like revolted yeah and i was like

01:04:21.500 but why you don't even go to it but but i think that's just how people have come to think about

01:04:26.320 how the church should function right you know what i mean and the same people i was like i remember

01:04:31.900 saying i don't know if it was the wisest thing at the time but i said i will continue doing teaching

01:04:37.100 the sunday school if you will commit to leading your family and family worship at least five days

01:04:42.980 a week. Yeah. And I had elders in the church say, no, I refuse. And I was like, well, that I think

01:04:49.120 is like the crux of the issue. I think it was Brian that talked about this in his talk, but

01:04:53.320 maybe it was Steven in the, in the panel that he did where you can talk about things online or you

01:04:59.040 can see other people doing things and it gives you a sense of action. Yes. Like it, it scratches

01:05:04.100 the itch of you thinking that you accomplished anything at all when you've done literally

01:05:07.700 nothing. Having those church programs gives people the comfort of thinking, ah, yes, I am.

01:05:13.340 I am doing this. The Royal eye. It's kind of like a golf scramble when you contribute nothing to

01:05:19.800 your team and you're like, we did it. We did it as a team. And so you have to stop talking about

01:05:24.700 so you have like the weekly women's afternoon tea and gossip party. And then you, the next week,

01:05:31.980 someone has a baby and it's like, you know, 50 women to go to the tea party. And then the next

01:05:36.600 week someone has a baby hey who can provide meals for that family and it's just crickets yeah they

01:05:41.640 they want the church to do the work of the ministry they don't want the church to do its job

01:05:46.000 which is to equip them for the work of the ministry so that they actually have to pour

01:05:51.040 themselves out in ways that are frequently uncomfortable and inconvenient for the good

01:05:55.340 of the people around them but like that's the christian life yeah yeah and the more the more

01:05:59.500 we talk about this i sort of think like one of the normals we're trying to re-establish is a

01:06:03.460 a normal kind of historic church.

01:06:06.080 So things like family worship being a regular practice,

01:06:09.400 fathers taking the lead in catechism for their own children.

01:06:12.540 Again,

01:06:12.900 Deuteronomy six,

01:06:13.800 that sort of thing.

01:06:14.540 I think Psalm,

01:06:15.960 Psalm singing would certainly be included in that corporate singing in

01:06:19.300 general,

01:06:19.680 that the,

01:06:20.860 the liturgy is the work of the people.

01:06:23.040 Yep.

01:06:23.740 Um,

01:06:24.140 I think the Lord's service and the way that's ordered is probably in

01:06:27.440 there.

01:06:28.060 I would even say like practical expositional.

01:06:31.440 Yes,

01:06:31.680 but practical,

01:06:32.700 helpful sermons that actually deal with real issues in life um we've had a lot of sermons

01:06:38.820 recently you guys have preached some of them where it's like i actually got this from james

01:06:44.400 jordan where he's like you know a lot of sermons really should be like a word with the family

01:06:48.320 and he actually advocated he was like there's a lot of like most of his sermons i think he didn't

01:06:53.480 record them because he's like no it's like a family meeting yeah so you can actually address

01:06:58.120 things like if you start thinking about like i'm preaching to the nation well then you start

01:07:03.660 preaching differently you know so so those are some of them we talked about hospitality i think

01:07:09.020 realistically the school christian education it's really like we're trying to establish that normal

01:07:14.020 and then say like here you can actually learn a lot of these things and start putting them in

01:07:19.200 practice in your own church communities um it is interesting though as we have those conversations

01:07:25.460 it always reminds me I forgot how weird so much of the church is yeah like people are still fighting

01:07:33.280 like family integration and worship yeah and and I'm like oh yeah I forgot people do that

01:07:39.340 we've traveled and we've gone to churches and they're like a children's church over here and

01:07:43.100 my kids are like what the heck is children's church like this is an abomination you know like

01:07:49.260 they don't even really remember an existence like that your kids will probably think the same thing

01:07:54.620 yeah yeah and i'm so glad for it it is strange to think that those are battles that are like

01:07:59.860 still being fought by people yeah it makes you really grateful to be where you're at um and it

01:08:05.260 also i think it inspires sympathy and pity for those who are seeking to do really well but are

01:08:10.760 just in the midst of frankly like a tired and lazy old guard who actually has no interest in

01:08:16.900 glorifying the lord but just wants to make their life as convenient as possible and we we talked

01:08:21.680 and gave a lot of counsel to people on that point actually that are in the position where they are

01:08:26.760 under the kind of this lazy old guard doing things the the way we've always done it right and they're

01:08:32.480 interested in integrated family worship um and and uh and so they're like well what you know what

01:08:39.160 do we do they're you know they're not listening to us and i was like well well here's something

01:08:43.420 like why don't you just joyfully go and do those things just just continue like bring your kids in

01:08:49.080 Show them what it looks like to have well-disciplined children that are worshiping with you and singing and participating.

01:08:57.340 And hey, invite people over to your house.

01:08:59.640 Do hospitality and just include them in family worship.

01:09:03.900 And do it, again, with great joy.

01:09:06.760 Make it appealing.

01:09:08.480 And I'm telling you, the fruit is the thing that is the most alluring.

01:09:15.560 It really is.

01:09:16.720 It's the thing that you look at and you go, man, that's, that's pretty good.

01:09:20.460 Yeah.

01:09:20.860 Right.

01:09:21.160 Rather than the arguments.

01:09:22.700 Well, I think too, one of the big pieces of counsel that we end up giving seemingly

01:09:27.100 every conference, because like a lot of young guys and young families will ask, hey, I'm

01:09:32.300 not in leadership.

01:09:33.880 I'm, you know, 22 or 25 or whatever it is, or maybe they're 35, but they're still not

01:09:38.960 in leadership.

01:09:39.360 Don't want to be.

01:09:40.900 And they will say something like, how do I fundamentally push against the pastors and

01:09:45.800 change their direction and change the vision of the church so that we turned it into a christian

01:09:49.460 like ogden and it's like brian has been really good about hammering this point and the the short

01:09:55.980 answer is you don't actually god in that church hasn't called you to do that yeah um and and i

01:10:02.220 think more like because you could be you end up usurping causing division you become a problem

01:10:08.080 for the pastors there becomes authority and respect issues there but so much what we're

01:10:13.140 telling them is like, you need to find a leadership that actually aligns with what you want, how you

01:10:18.160 want to raise your family in the church. Like that would be a better starting point than trying to

01:10:22.640 cause division. And the guys that I've talked to across the years, I know you have too, as well,

01:10:27.320 both of you that go about saying like, well, I'm going to build this like kind of little faction

01:10:31.920 group in the church. And we're just going to start trying to like get people into the stuff

01:10:36.380 that we're into. I would say almost every single time it ends poorly. Yeah. I mean, it's like,

01:10:42.200 think of a husband and a wife what what do we tell a wife when she's like i'm having a really

01:10:48.100 hard time submitting to my husband you say well submit to your husband yeah but he's not acting

01:10:53.740 perfect he's dropping the ball in some ways like don't you understand yeah first peter three

01:11:01.160 submit like be quiet and and do as he says so long as he's not telling you to sin it's almost

01:11:07.600 like they read that verse like submit to your husband in all things and then there's like a

01:11:11.760 an ellipses and it's like when you feel like, yeah, like the parenthetical when you want to

01:11:15.940 submit to your husband, but it's the same for the, for the pastor. Like, okay, maybe you are

01:11:20.660 in a church where the pastor is genuinely failing in his duties to preach the word, um, sincerely

01:11:27.020 and effectively and, and applicably. Okay. And, and, and we'll say, yeah, okay. That, that could

01:11:32.600 be a real sin problem. What's going to fix that your sin too, and not submitting to your elders

01:11:38.360 and in disrespecting the office that God has put in there

01:11:40.980 and in sowing discord,

01:11:42.460 something that God really hates in his body,

01:11:45.300 no, is the easy answer.

01:11:48.080 It's not going to fix it.

01:11:49.920 And in that case,

01:11:50.680 you're usually fully within rights

01:11:52.820 to discuss your disagreements

01:11:54.140 and then find a church where it aligns better

01:11:56.800 with what you believe.

01:11:58.140 So for example, if you have a Disby pastor,

01:12:00.500 the number of times I heard,

01:12:02.040 hey, my pastor's a Disby, 0.99

01:12:03.300 like how do I convert him to post-millennialism? 1.00

01:12:05.620 And I'm like, ooh.

01:12:06.740 you find a post-millennial pastor it's what you do and a lot of people too you know i keep saying

01:12:13.340 this is like my i would tell my wife this is the old pastor trick just one more thing

01:12:16.740 you were preaching just one more thing uh but this kind of issue of it comes up every year

01:12:23.140 moving relocation yes you need to think through this very carefully you need to weigh these

01:12:27.820 decisions but i talked to so many people where they're like okay i live in an area in the middle

01:12:33.020 of nowhere. There are no good churches and no good spouses. I have, you know, four boys who are 18 to

01:12:39.060 24. What do I do? And they're saying, what do I do without moving? And I'm like, uh, well,

01:12:47.140 I think you move. Yeah. I think, you know, it's one of those, I tell people this often, it's like

01:12:53.240 our fathers sailed across oceans to make a better future for their people. You might actually just

01:13:00.300 have to make a hard decision because i've been in those positions my boys were getting older and i

01:13:04.920 said hey there's nothing here we've got to make some really hard life decisions and abraham sent

01:13:13.840 servant to you know go find a wife like sometimes radical steps have to be taken but it seems like

01:13:19.940 kevin remaining in a bad situation where you can't look at the elders or their wives and say like i

01:13:25.020 want my sons and daughters to be like them or my wife, more than likely, you're not going to fix

01:13:30.800 that. You just need to figure out somewhere else to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and that's

01:13:36.860 a, that's a really tough pill to swallow because some people just, they have a good job. They have

01:13:42.680 a, they, they have some good people around them, but the leadership of the church is just really

01:13:49.540 bad that maybe the church doesn't have a lot of kids. Uh, it's fairly small, um, nice people,

01:13:56.760 but yeah, there's no, there's no options for any of their kids to date. There's no options for any

01:14:02.140 of their kids even, um, to have older men to look up to, or for the, for the girls, like to have

01:14:08.480 good godly women to, to be in their home and learning from. And there was so many times where

01:14:16.800 It's not always the answer, but for a lot of guys, it is like, man, you're going to have to, you're actually going to have to lose something. This is going to cost you. You're not going to be able to, to just pick up the things you have right now and move them over here. You're going to have to move and it's going to come at a great cost.

01:14:36.840 But that cost is worth it because you have to think far beyond just yourself and your own personal discomfort right now.

01:14:44.340 And you have to be thinking about your children.

01:14:47.020 I feel like it's actually a prototypical story in the Old Testament that God's people should learn from.

01:14:52.480 It should be part of how we think about the world.

01:14:55.200 God called his son Israel to leave Egypt and to go into the wilderness and to travel and endure hardship so that they could enter the promised land.

01:15:05.040 the other thing i would say to people is there's sort of this like mentality i think i had it so

01:15:10.840 you know i'll at least speak for myself where it's like if if the lord's leading us that in

01:15:15.580 that direction it'll be easy yeah that's like not how life works yeah no you should expect like

01:15:22.520 there's going to be a series of tests it's going to be really hard your tests or your faith will

01:15:26.440 be tested um there's going to be trials ahead of you but ben something brian always says like but

01:15:33.240 you have to believe the Lord is on your side. He's good. Yeah. It's, it's James one, the Christian

01:15:38.740 in a fallen world where we have to be sanctified. We ought to accept and also invite the trials, 0.58

01:15:44.760 not like impose them on ourselves, but invite them when they come. Yeah. Because what you

01:15:49.140 consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, because the testing of

01:15:53.080 your faith produces steadfastness and let steadfastness have its full effect, making you

01:15:57.160 perfect and complete lacking in nothing. So it's like, you want this bright, shiny thing.

01:16:02.140 well guess what it takes to get there death and your whole life is one big death so yeah it's like

01:16:08.500 as we go through stages in our life where we're seeking something really good that's where we

01:16:14.520 should actually expect to see some of the greatest resistance in terms of the world of flesh and the

01:16:19.900 devil but we have to remember that god is working those things providentially ordered them but also

01:16:25.080 is actively working those things for your good if you don't believe that you will fail yeah i think

01:16:31.780 it was even an old jordan peterson but he was like anything good worth having whether it's virtue

01:16:36.320 or a good family anything good worth having is worth suffering for and you will suffer for it

01:16:42.360 yeah like it's going to be hard work and you're going to have to work you know i mean even maybe

01:16:46.960 way harder than you ever thought to actually reach that destination uh gentlemen it's been

01:16:52.560 great talking about the conference uh still super stoked ben congrats on the book hey thanks thank

01:16:58.160 you i mean i know a lot of hard work went into from both of you guys um man sick cover too yeah

01:17:04.700 really cool cover yeah the title maybe could have been a little bit better the title's not

01:17:08.760 ultimately what i wished yeah but it's all right it's still really good uh no hey pick it up today

01:17:14.160 uh like i said it's a great re i really do believe it's a great resource it's the book that i wish

01:17:18.960 someone had given me yeah when i was in my early teens genuinely i would even say too like so i

01:17:24.240 have boys, but for fathers who are mentoring teenagers of both, both sexes, this would be a

01:17:30.340 great book, particularly in our age to give them as a resource and tool, like, Hey, we need to

01:17:35.340 regularly be thinking about this issue. Um, really good discipleship tool. Yeah. And a lot of it,

01:17:40.600 like, thanks to Kev, I, I try to not spend time in an ideal world that doesn't exist and instead

01:17:48.080 speak to the actual issues that you're actually going to face in 2020. Well, in the 2020s and

01:17:53.560 21st century. So I really do think it's a good resource for people and I would encourage you

01:17:57.700 to check it out. Again, if you or someone that you care about struggles with this sin,

01:18:02.380 I think that it will bless them. Awesome. Well, thank you guys both.

01:18:06.540 I want to thank our Patreon supporters. Really couldn't do this show or any of our shows without

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01:18:16.340 couldn't do it without them. Wonderful people. We thank you guys. We'll catch you in the next

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The King's Hall - June 26, 2026

2026 New Christendom Press Conference Recap - The War For Normal

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