The King's Hall - Answering Listener Questions

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brian here with a big announcement from New Christendom Press.

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00:00:56.600 Well, as we're sitting down to record this episode of the King's Hall, we are coming

00:01:02.660 into conference season here in Ogden. We're about a week away from heading into our conference.

00:01:08.360 By the time this episode comes out, that will be in the past. And so, of course, I am contractually

00:01:13.820 obligated as the president of New Christendom Press to begin inviting you to the 2026 New

00:01:19.680 Christendom Press conference, which we hope you'll join us for here in Ogden, Utah. But that said,

00:01:25.180 we needed to sit down and record this episode of the king's hall and we thought to ourselves

00:01:29.080 what better way to have a great time and a fun conversation than to open up twitter and ask

00:01:36.640 everybody what questions do you have for us so that's exactly what we did i posted on twitter

00:01:41.980 and facebook just so we could get the boomer representatives not missing out on them and we

00:01:48.500 asked what questions you guys have for us in this episode of the king's hall we're going to be

00:01:53.300 taking up as many of those questions as we can. This is not rehearsed. We didn't pick these ahead

00:01:58.440 of time. We're literally going to go through the tweets and through the Facebook responses and pick

00:02:03.560 what we find to be the most interesting questions and see what we make of them. So thanks for

00:02:09.860 listening. Welcome to this episode of the King's Hall and the King's Hall podcast exists to make

00:02:14.200 self-ruled men who rule well and win the world. Well, welcome to this episode of the King's

00:02:23.280 hall podcast uh you saw an excellent intro from our illustrious king brian sauve thank you for

00:02:30.360 joining us today for this q a thank you for asking the question on twitter nobody would have responded

00:02:35.980 my tweets so i appreciate that and we're also joined today with timu eric khan mr ben garrett

00:02:44.880 yay welcome back i was actually saying that we should whenever eric's not here we should call

00:02:51.420 the real eric con the wish app eric and call ben the real eric con ben garrett yeah and just see

00:02:57.700 how deep we can get in terms of layers to this joke i'm i'm trying to like eric is really good

00:03:02.540 at impressions yeah he's and i feel like i should honor him by doing an impression of him yeah why

00:03:07.900 why don't you do that for us but uh maybe like okay so here's the scene yeah right we all walk

00:03:14.760 in very serious like yep we're really setting this up yeah very serious business thing or like

00:03:20.180 church thing that we need to figure out all right so eric walks into that hey uh what time are we

00:03:26.660 going golfing today by the way wait eric's back early from his vacation eric is oh no that was

00:03:32.620 ben that was crazy you're welcome dang that was wild listeners you're welcome that is the best

00:03:38.520 that i can do now i'm happy to be here let's let's jump let's get into this i'm not sure if i'm

00:03:42.320 tracking where this humor is going let's dive in head first i just don't understand don't i'm

00:03:46.160 diving in. I'm going deep. In over my head, I want to be. All right. So we've had a few questions

00:03:50.520 surrounding this issue. Actually, I received an email just a couple of days ago about this as

00:03:54.080 well. This seems to be a pattern within the reformed camp of unreasonable fathers as far

00:04:03.280 as courting daughters or dating their daughters is concerned. It almost seems like a, is it a

00:04:10.060 Laban sort of situation with fathers to where they're putting unreasonable expectations of

00:04:18.340 suitors for their daughters. That wasn't really formatted as a question, even though I spoke like

00:04:23.040 it was a question. So do you guys see this at all in your experience where there could be a

00:04:28.240 temptation or have actually seen it personally in counseling or in giving advice where there seems

00:04:35.120 to be fathers that are putting unrealistic expectations onto suitors for their daughters

00:04:41.160 you guys seen that at all oh yeah yes definitely seen it um we have all we've not just seen it

00:04:47.540 personally and we have seen it personally um i've seen this in the net of new christian press

00:04:54.600 because we do a lot of i mean we've done several episodes on courtship and dating we've done

00:04:59.760 several singles mixers. We've been involved in singles mixers with Joel Webb and in Right

00:05:05.520 Response. And so we get lots of correspondence from people asking about this on the personal

00:05:11.480 level. Like my son was, you know, in the singles mixer and this is what happened. Or I, you know,

00:05:18.400 got involved with a young woman and this is what happened. And a couple of through lines that I

00:05:24.080 have seen are in, I'll give you one and then kick it over to you guys maybe for more of them. One

00:05:29.360 of them is I've noticed that with young suitors, when the woman and the man are both like, let's

00:05:36.380 say 18 to 24, where they're looking for the level of maturity in a man and proven maturity that can

00:05:44.020 only exist in a man who's not only older, but has been married for 10 years. So they're like

00:05:49.020 grilling the man and going through and expecting them to be as ready for marriage as someone who's

00:05:55.840 been married for 10, 15 years. And the reality is it's not possible. It's like the, the trope of

00:06:03.660 people who, you know, they go to apply for an entry level position. And one of the job requirements

00:06:09.540 is five years of experience in the field. So I want to caution fathers when you're evaluating a

00:06:17.460 man, make sure that you're actually being reasonable and think about the golden rule,

00:06:21.420 treat that young man the way you would have wanted to be treated like does he have a is he a christian

00:06:26.940 man does he can he provide uh is there a good connection like do they enjoy each other's

00:06:31.780 company um is he not involved in any disqualifying sins like he's not hooked on pornography or he's

00:06:38.400 not a big fornicator or you know if if he can go through and say no i'm biblically qualified for

00:06:44.560 marriage then don't add on to that layers of like well he's got to make a hundred thousand dollars

00:06:50.860 a year. He's got to have the equivalent of a 15 year old career. And he's got to have all this

00:06:54.980 experience in these things that he just won't until he does them. So that's one thing I've

00:07:00.080 noticed. Have you guys seen anything else? Well, I have seen, I received an email from a listener

00:07:06.440 and he gave a couple of examples of how he's experienced this. Now, when you go to a singles

00:07:10.480 mixer at a conference, you're getting people from all over the country, right? That are attending

00:07:14.420 this. And one of the examples he gave was that a father would only allow this man to court his

00:07:22.080 daughter if he actually moved across the country to live in his hometown, to even court his

00:07:29.420 daughter. Interesting. So that's just an example of something that's completely unrealistic.

00:07:34.220 Now there are other things like theological distinctives. So like there was another example

00:07:39.380 where it was a reformed Baptist gentleman and there was a young Presbyterian man that wanted

00:07:45.920 to date his daughter. And he said, you may not court her unless you change your theology and

00:07:51.260 will not baptize my grandchildren as infants. Now, so there, there has to be some sort of line

00:07:57.560 in there between convictions that are, that are realistic and unrealistic. I don't know. Do you

00:08:03.020 guys, what do you guys think about that as far as like baptism? Man, that's a tough one. It would

00:08:10.040 be, it would be on the list, but when I'm thinking of, okay, my daughters aren't old enough for this 0.91

00:08:16.100 yet. I would be thinking of evaluating a man in the total package. So there would be situations

00:08:22.600 where one data point or a cluster of data points about him, his character, his fruitfulness,

00:08:28.020 whatever, might sway me to weigh that against maybe something that would be in my con list.

00:08:34.680 Like, let's say he was an Anglican instead of a Presbyterian or he was, you know, something

00:08:38.220 else. And I would just need to weigh, they're so individual that it's very difficult to just

00:08:44.120 make one checklist. So I could see it being one where it would be a yes, like my daughter has

00:08:52.160 been trained from her youth in the doctrine and system of the church that i passed her or that

00:08:59.600 they were at and i'm we're fully convinced of it and so she and so i'm not going to tempt her

00:09:04.060 to go violate her conscience or to go start dating outside of our tradition yeah and the reason i

00:09:11.440 ask it in that way is not just it's not a black or white question like a yes or no uh it's just

00:09:16.780 interesting to see how you'd think through something like that now a different example

00:09:20.680 was that there was a gentleman that required this young man

00:09:25.060 to sign the Antioch Declaration in order to actually,

00:09:28.860 why is everybody laughing?

00:09:29.680 Well, that's just a joke.

00:09:31.160 This was actually serious.

00:09:32.400 Like sign the Antioch Declaration in order to actually court my daughter

00:09:36.580 was the example.

00:09:39.100 I would not encourage anybody to make the Antioch Declaration

00:09:42.780 a litmus test for courtship.

00:09:44.900 I'll tell you what.

00:09:45.600 I'll put it that way.

00:09:47.020 If you're a man, if you're a young man,

00:09:49.020 and the, and the father of a woman that you want to court is doing these things, just walk away.

00:09:55.520 Yeah. Like it's actually that simple. He's just alienating good candidates for his daughter.

00:10:00.800 He's not loving her. So literally just show him the consequences of his folly and walk away.

00:10:06.520 That's the same with the baptism thing. Like it's not binary, but if a father is making it binary,

00:10:12.220 pick someone else. Yeah. I mean, save yourself the trouble, honestly.

00:10:15.640 Yeah, I think this is a really interesting test. Asking some of these questions around courtship is really interesting because it's actually similar to something I learned early on in my career when I, before I was a pastor and I was interviewing for different jobs is something that you don't realize is that when you're, say you're a young man and you're looking to court this young lady, it's just like finding a job.

00:10:38.300 you're getting interviewed for a position and you think that you're coming like hat in hand,

00:10:44.000 like a pauper, a beggar, you know, just hoping for the opportunity. That's actually not what's

00:10:49.100 going on. You're interviewing the interviewer as well, because you're going to be marrying

00:10:54.820 into this family as well. So it's really giving you a lot of data as to what sort of woman you're

00:11:00.620 going to be marrying potentially and what sort of family you're going to be marrying into.

00:11:04.620 so all of these things while it's difficult to have like a a checkbox like the fathers seem to

00:11:10.540 have in some of these situations to where it's you know if you're a presbyterian if you you know

00:11:15.760 don't sign the antioch declaration like these checkboxes you don't have to have necessarily

00:11:20.800 those same you know you don't have to have checkboxes that are automatically yes or no's

00:11:25.320 on some of these tertiary issues but it is really helpful to go in and to paint a better picture of

00:11:30.740 what sort of woman and family are going to be marrying into. So it's a test on both, both

00:11:35.280 accounts. So one of the things I would encourage young men to do is they're looking for a wife,

00:11:40.340 uh, is to actually have that mindset that you're interviewing the family as well. You're

00:11:46.360 interviewing the father. Uh, and so, yeah, these are red flags. Yeah. Cause like if the, if it's

00:11:53.760 true that your wife is not your mission in life. And it is true. But then if you're willing to

00:12:02.060 compromise on these, like, for example, if a father is like, you can only court my daughter

00:12:05.940 if you become a Baptist and you're actually willing to succumb to that, you've actually

00:12:13.080 proven yourself to be less than honorable because you're being tossed around by your

00:12:18.980 more base affections and sexual desires. Now you want to pursue those sexual desires in a godly way

00:12:25.400 and that's good, but if you're willing to forego your convictions on covenant theology, then you're

00:12:30.240 not really a man of conviction anyway. Same with the Antioch Declaration. Whether you signed it and

00:12:34.700 they don't want you to or you didn't sign it and they do want you to is beside the point. If you're

00:12:39.400 willing to just sign something that is so divisive and that really does represent two polarizing

00:12:45.860 views of how we should look at history and its interaction with the church, all because you want

00:12:51.240 to court some girl that you have no guarantee of marrying whatsoever, that means that you actually

00:12:55.360 need to have a more rigorous idea of what your mission in life is to begin with. And so that,

00:13:00.740 yeah, then you can come in with having some cards in the conversation and saying like,

00:13:06.040 I actually don't need you. Like, I don't need you potential father-in-law. And so if you're

00:13:11.880 going to be a butthole, then I'm just going to walk away. And I mean, do we have to beep that

00:13:16.640 out? Like where, what is that the technical term? That is the technical term. I think that was a

00:13:20.840 technical term is something else. I think, I think it would be listen. Yeah. To hypothetically say

00:13:27.320 someone could be acting like, like that, like that thing, like that anatomical reference. Yeah.

00:13:33.260 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Excellent.

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00:18:17.220 and rediscover the tradition. New question. Ready? Yeah. I've got one that I think is,

00:18:24.440 is interesting. Says, can you give a hypothetical yet concrete example of how to put no enemies on

00:18:31.720 the right into practice when bad actors demand your compliance? So we're talking about, so that

00:18:37.800 I can define some of these terms for people that aren't familiar with them. We're talking about

00:18:41.320 what's typically called struggle sessions. We're talking about no enemies on the right is the idea

00:18:46.440 that in terms of public discourse and political coalition that we want to avoid insofar as it's

00:18:54.620 practically possible to infight amongst the right and even publicly counter-signal people

00:19:02.040 who would maybe say something that is further right on an issue than you would.

00:19:06.220 basically it's saying we should do what the left does in a sense because the left you know they

00:19:11.460 they will use elements like aoc or nancy pelosi who are a little bit more radical green new deal

00:19:17.100 type stuff that the democrat party doesn't actually have an intention of passing but they

00:19:21.140 will use that radical fringe to push the window of consensus leftward and then they'll actually

00:19:28.820 pass something that is they don't gate keep their own people they don't gate keep their own people

00:19:33.280 yeah um so what would a concrete example look like um when a bad actor demands your compliance

00:19:40.120 in struggle sessioning someone over a right-wing view i have a couple thoughts i don't know if

00:19:45.360 you have some thoughts no go for it so one of the thoughts like to frame the christian ethics

00:19:51.420 of the conversation is that no enemies on the right is a technical tactical and strategic

00:19:57.180 principle which means that it genuinely must be applied with wisdom rather than an absolute rule

00:20:03.680 it doesn't mean that any time somebody says they are on the right or that they say something and

00:20:09.600 they genuinely are on the right that you have a moral obligation rooted in the 10 commandments

00:20:14.160 to not ever disagree with them and if you do disagree to never do it publicly it's a tactical

00:20:20.360 and strategic question in principle not an absolute ethical moral guideline from sinai right

00:20:27.400 so when i'm thinking about this question there are situations where i would quite gladly disagree

00:20:34.680 with somebody on the right and even do so publicly or someone allegedly on the right etc

00:20:38.900 that's that's my first kind of guideline of of to avoid the ham-fisted straw man presentation of

00:20:47.520 what no enemies on the right might look like as a tactic people are going to say well does that mean

00:20:51.880 you know if jesus has enemies on the right then you have to have enemies on the right as well

00:20:55.440 and i would say yeah that's true and that's also not at least if i'm appealing to this principle

00:21:01.200 what i would mean by it um that's the first guideline when when the rule says no enemies

00:21:08.760 on the right the word enemies there is doing a lot of kind of nuanced heavy lifting where

00:21:14.120 they may actually be an enemy on a particular issue, which is to say you disagree. You disagree

00:21:20.800 with them. You think they're counterproductive. But that doesn't mean you have to make them into

00:21:23.460 a perceived enemy to the public. Yeah. And there's a few, that's definitely true. And there's a few

00:21:29.360 practical elements to this as well. For example, when I'm weighing this, some of this won't apply

00:21:34.280 to everybody, but when I'm weighing the question, am I going to take my public platform, which has

00:21:41.680 potentially routinely reaches hundreds of thousands of people tens of thousands of people

00:21:47.180 sometimes millions of people am i going to ben's like wow sometimes billions billion never billions

00:21:53.820 uh everyone's saying it no i am strategically thinking if there's something even on the right

00:22:02.380 that i disagree with am i going to help it more than discourage it by pointing a flashlight on it

00:22:10.680 and and some of the time my calculus is i'm actually not going i'm going to be counterproductive

00:22:15.380 to even my own end of attempting to lead people into truth goodness and beauty on the right

00:22:20.860 by even point making a big deal out of this like if some anon on twitter says something that i

00:22:30.420 disagree with for example i help him by quote tweeting it i don't hurt him i no matter how

00:22:37.520 much i take him down i've actually helped him quite a bit by quote tweeting him so i have tried

00:22:42.140 to discipline myself about that on one level um but also yeah we need to make a distinction between

00:22:47.560 enemies and people with whom we have just disagreements there's also a big important

00:22:52.880 like there's a distinction to make in the nature of the disagreement so if you are and there's also

00:22:58.280 conscience individual conscience that comes into play like if you are scrolling twitter and you

00:23:02.500 have a platform and you see something from someone that would be in your camp that you disagree with,

00:23:10.100 what is the nature of the disagreement? Is it a tactical disagreement? Is it a disagreement on a

00:23:15.200 perspective of something? Is it a tertiary theological disagreement or is it a moral

00:23:20.900 disagreement where you believe that if that person is living out that idea, they're actually

00:23:29.120 committing a moral failure. Okay. Well then you could say like, maybe you have an obligation to

00:23:33.760 approach that brother and say, Hey, I think this is wrong. That would be done privately in

00:23:37.280 accordance with Matthew 18. Let's say it's one of the other disagreements, but you feel very

00:23:41.460 strongly about it. Well, if, if it's a conscience issue, I think that there's a way to address it

00:23:48.920 that doesn't tank the pushing of the plow or the pushing of the Overton window to the right.

00:23:55.300 again privately is a really good way to do that yeah um and then if it's not a conscience issue

00:24:00.820 if you're like i disagree with that but i actually don't care that much for whatever reason you

00:24:06.940 should just move on yeah and let the lying dog lie you go ahead dan you know what's interesting

00:24:15.400 and you guys can correct me if if i'm wrong just thinking through some of the categories uh ben

00:24:20.280 that you laid out with, you know, theological, moral, personal convictions, strategic disagreements.

00:24:30.040 It appears to me that some of the biggest disagreements, particularly around race,

00:24:36.800 the Antioch declaration, some of the stuff with Will Spencer that just cropped up,

00:24:42.280 it'll be old news by the time this podcast comes out.

00:24:45.400 Yeah. But it seems like there is a like a behind the scenes motivation is actually a strategic disagreement, but it's being painted as a moral and theological disagreement to the public. Would you guys say that's true? Because if it is, that means that it's actually quite difficult on social media to understand where the disagreements lie with some of these people on the right. Yeah. Do you think that's accurate?

00:25:12.880 I was actually going to say part of the difficulty with this question is that the hypothetical has to be limited to what you can control.

00:25:20.340 And you run into a lot of difficulties when you have what I think you're saying is true, where strategic and tertiary things are being presented as moral failures by those that disagree.

00:25:34.740 You now have an obligation to defend your name.

00:25:38.080 You have to defend your honor.

00:25:39.820 And so now you've gotten pulled in to a disagreement that takes place on the right that everyone can see, but it's not because you wanted to.

00:25:53.440 So in the hypothetical, you, if you were the one who was like the aggressor, you could go to that person privately.

00:25:59.660 You could work it out privately.

00:26:00.860 You know, you could do all these things.

00:26:01.920 But when you're the one who's being, who's the victim, who's not the aggressor, you might be put in a position where you have to, because you're before God, defend your good name to a group of people with, with a topic and an issue that you had no intention whatsoever of, of, you know, discussing in the public, getting a public, in the public sphere, like position on, because you just, for whatever reason, you're like, that's not, I don't care to give a public opinion on that.

00:26:28.880 that's actually a really good point. Like most of the time when I'm thinking of no enemies on the

00:26:32.500 right, one of the biggest, and I'm realizing it as you said this, one of the most common ways that

00:26:37.040 I exercise this principle is actually simply in choosing which topics I feel equipped. Yeah.

00:26:44.580 I believe myself equipped to speak on. And when someone, let's say there's an issue where

00:26:50.280 someone either presents themselves or they genuinely are an expert or a subject matter

00:26:56.160 expert or that it's like a, they know a lot about a topic and they speak to it. And maybe two or

00:27:01.700 three things that they say out of 15 propositions strike me as wrong. And I'm like, I don't know if

00:27:08.300 I'd agree with that. But then as I evaluate it, I think to myself, do I know a lot about this topic?

00:27:14.360 Am I overextending principles from other topics I do know and assuming that they apply equally here

00:27:19.340 or that my knowledge is adequate to address this issue? So most of the time for me, it's actually

00:27:23.440 not in terms of volume i'm not no no enemies on the right thinking avoiding struggle sessions and

00:27:29.840 i would say that too but i'm more often saying there's someone on the right they said a bunch

00:27:35.440 of stuff they they are presenting themselves maybe as a subject matter expert i was neutral on two of

00:27:42.360 the things they said i don't know if i agree with three of them i agree with eight of them

00:27:46.000 do i need to say something 99 out of 100 times my answer this is my calculus again it's tactical

00:27:53.720 is no yeah what what am i helping the the cause of the christian right by engaging in that probably

00:28:01.280 not do i know everything about everything no i definitely don't maybe that triggers going and

00:28:07.160 looking into it and even asking them privately or talking to them about it um the other give a

00:28:12.580 concrete example and then maybe we move on let's say tanner cartwright you guys know tanner cartwright

00:28:17.100 chops magnificent chops he's like a very right wing sort of dude out in um ref i think he's at

00:28:25.320 reformation church with jerry doris i'm if i get this wrong sorry is that the kentucky guy

00:28:30.760 yeah yeah yeah i met him we lexi and i went out there for their one of their conferences a while

00:28:35.560 ago or like a camp they did and it was great group of people so so tanner when he pops up on my

00:28:41.520 timeline, it's often like engaging in the same sort of stuff. All of us do political, cultural

00:28:47.520 stuff. Let's say that Tanner says something and it's like, he's got the Elijah turned to 11 and

00:28:55.100 he is engaging in public mockery. And it's the type of public mockery of some issue where genuinely

00:29:02.780 it is a question of tactics and wisdom of whether I would say it that way or whatever. And I do this

00:29:10.680 all the time and people disagree with me and say, Brian, I agree with the substance of what you said,

00:29:16.200 but you said it way too abrasively. You said it way too, you were a jerk, whatever. And before

00:29:21.340 God, I didn't think I was being a jerk. I thought I was engaging in licit tactical public mockery

00:29:27.960 of the Elijah sword. Okay. So let's say Tanner says something and a hundred thousand people are

00:29:33.580 mad at him. And 10% of the people who are mad at him are people on our team somewhere. They're

00:29:39.080 like he went too far even for our camp tanner cartwright he went too far um brian denounce him

00:29:44.520 and they start and some movement starts where it's like let's all denounce tanner cartwright

00:29:49.880 for his thing under very few circumstances would i consider doing that i would just not i would

00:29:56.540 ignore it and and even if i looked at it and and i can think of specific examples where this has

00:30:02.340 happened where people have done stuff that i i genuinely looked at and said i wouldn't have done

00:30:07.700 that. I actually think that that was maybe borderline crass. That was maybe borderline

00:30:12.140 too far. It was trying to be too edgy. I don't know. That would hurt. That would bother my

00:30:18.580 conscience to talk that way. And most of the time I don't say anything. Are you, are you talking

00:30:24.520 about wish.com, Eric Kahn or team to eric.com right now? It's hard to tell them apart. Sometimes

00:30:30.400 the most concrete example, ironically, is the NSA ads with the middle finger. Oh yeah. I never

00:30:34.580 would have done that i think and now now see i'm even publicly talking about it hopefully just by

00:30:40.140 way of illustration yeah and we can just drop it there that that was that was a concrete example

00:30:43.980 where i think you could go back i don't think i said anything about it at the time a lot of people

00:30:48.480 were trying to cancel canon over it or nsa over it and i was like i wouldn't have done that i

00:30:53.780 disagree i get their justification i think it was was not the right way of doing it um but this

00:31:00.340 doesn't have to become but i but i'm not going to help yeah by by coming out and just and here's

00:31:07.460 the other thing it is so tempting to make your whole personality the second you set yourself up

00:31:11.660 as like the in the camp discernment minister here's the thing it's such a slippery slope no

00:31:18.520 one likes the hall monitor and when like those people who do that as the in the camp discernment

00:31:24.420 guy. They're just acting like, uh, you know, the guy at civil air patrol, who's a sophomore in high

00:31:31.760 school, but who's an officer at weekend civil air patrol. And he just loves screaming at the

00:31:37.700 middle schoolers or the guy in class who is good for nothing else than to be a hall monitor. So

00:31:42.660 the teachers make him a hall monitor and literally everyone hates him because he thinks that now he's

00:31:47.160 going on a power trip and now he gets to, you know, he gets to lord it over people. That's what

00:31:52.080 you're doing. This is how struggle sessions become wicked, wicked things. Uh, to your point about

00:31:58.680 only, you know, using your level of competency in an issue to kind of help be a guidepost for

00:32:04.940 whether or not you engage. So a struggle session, let's say that the one who is, uh, being the

00:32:11.500 accuser in the struggle session is uninformed on the topic that he wants to have the struggle

00:32:16.520 session about. Okay. Now what quickly will happen is he'll realize how uninformed he is on the topic

00:32:23.060 and he'll shift gears completely and turn it into a gospel issue. Yeah. Oh yeah. And this is the

00:32:28.180 trope of like, well, I'm Kyperian and I'm Vantilian. So therefore I know everything and I'm able to

00:32:33.500 speak competently to everything. And they psychologize and pathologize everything. No,

00:32:36.780 you're not. What you're doing is shifting the goalposts and you're turning tertiary things or

00:32:40.640 even like quaternary things into things that now determine whether or not someone is in the

00:32:45.820 kingdom of heaven. And yeah, go ahead. And then, well, I was just going to say the second thing

00:32:49.040 is let's say the, the accused is the one that's uninformed. So the accuser is very informed on a

00:32:54.500 topic and he's now bringing in this accused person who's adjacently related to the topic

00:32:59.140 to answer for it, but he's actually uninformed. Now you are forcing him via public shame and threat

00:33:05.060 to make a claim that he will be obligated to answer for before God on the final judgment day.

00:33:10.900 Yeah. You're doing something wicked in both situations. You're either anathematizing someone needlessly because you don't understand a topic in question, or you are forcing someone to give their name to something that they haven't accurately informed themselves on. And they're going to have to answer for every idle word that's spoken.

00:33:29.260 Yeah. Yeah. No, good points. I think this, this relates to another question. Maybe we can bridge

00:33:34.120 into it and it might be old news by the time this comes out. It did relate to Will Spencer's article

00:33:38.580 on Christ overall. One of the, one of the, there were two really controversial aspects of the

00:33:43.580 article that I could discern. One of them was Spencer's claim that like the right-wing ideologies

00:33:50.160 that are popularizing or gaining ascendance or in the, in the zeitgeist right now are more

00:33:56.040 dangerous than internet pornography or more pernicious. And the other was this, basically

00:34:02.120 his presentation of a hypothetical where you're going into a church member interview. And as a

00:34:05.920 pastor, you should be asking the question of someone like, do you believe there's a cabal

00:34:09.740 of Jews running the world? And the best answer allegedly, what, you know, that Spencer put

00:34:15.100 forward was like, what do you even mean? I don't even know what you're talking about. Like he had

00:34:18.060 never even thought about it. And then basically the implication was that anybody who said something

00:34:23.480 like, well, hang on a minute. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by cabal? What do you

00:34:27.580 mean by Jew? Do you mean every individual Jew? Do you mean like there are prominent Jews? Do you

00:34:31.180 mean that a besetting sin of Jews historically or currently is X, Y, or Z? If anybody kind of gets

00:34:36.960 more into that granular detail where it shows that they're at least a part of this conversation

00:34:40.720 about subversion and cultural subversion and what it has to do with race and what it has to do with

00:34:46.620 Jewishness and Bolshevism and some of these historic questions and cultural and political

00:34:50.620 questions. And so people asked us, what do you, can you address that? What do you think about

00:34:56.840 a church not admitting a potential member with contrary views on like the post-war consensus

00:35:01.100 or some of these things? And to me, this relates to the struggle session question in a lot of ways

00:35:06.580 because I have found so often that what's happening in a lot of these arguments is that

00:35:14.200 there's a subtle form of question begging that the person is engaging in who is scoffing at the

00:35:20.800 idea at all that someone might conclude some historically non-centrist or non-majority

00:35:29.500 opinion when it in even maybe a minor a very minority position on some historical event or

00:35:34.260 political subversion or something like that and the question begging is that um they must be wrong

00:35:41.200 on those things because so often it's like the assumption of the listener is that's such an

00:35:49.720 absurd question on the face of it yeah that only a com i mean a complete bitter nincompoop who's

00:35:57.460 been just taken in by the worst straw man versions of fatherless race baiting you know critical

00:36:03.880 theorists woke right etc etc um only those sorts of people would hear that question and go like

00:36:11.180 hang on, there's nuance to that, or here's my position or opinion. And I haven't found that

00:36:17.060 to be the case amongst the new Christian, right? I'm thinking of like Steven Wolf, CJ Engel,

00:36:23.140 Andrew Isker, us, a lot of guys who are involved in this conversation that are often smeared as

00:36:28.580 woke right or whatever. Most of us, if you said, what do you think about Nick Fuentes

00:36:33.760 and his the statement of x y and z most of us would be like well a do you think that that's

00:36:41.860 what we were talking about do you think we were like that in that group or agree with him or like

00:36:45.540 that's where i thought about this for the first time well it's like no that that's not the source

00:36:50.780 we're not that guy they they jump to straw men because we straw men never listen we never listen

00:36:56.280 listen to nick one first of all someone used a phrase and i had to google it and it had something

00:37:00.960 to do with nick fuentes and that's how little i know about nick fuentes was that but there's a lot

00:37:06.580 of the time struggle sessioning is it is a tactical play and one of the tactics is the

00:37:12.920 circular argument or the begging the question where they're basically framing a position from

00:37:18.220 the outset as absurd yeah and then concluding that it's sinful and that it also involves all

00:37:24.340 these pathologized emotional kind of undercurrents or motives. And I've just found that most of the

00:37:32.560 time it is so much more complicated than that. When you get into the issues that people are

00:37:37.180 trying to struggle session about. Yeah. An example would be that a guy just recently, you know,

00:37:42.160 said that I was engaged in critical race theory for just quite blandly noting the historic

00:37:48.720 involvement of uh certain elite jews in the pornography and smut industries which is just

00:37:54.960 beyond question yeah like in the 70s and 80s the vast majority of the porn industry was were run by

00:38:00.980 several prominent jewish elites yeah we know this it's just historical fact it doesn't follow that

00:38:08.280 every single individual jew in america was involved etc like there's a bunch of stuff it doesn't

00:38:12.120 entail and the same and it shows like that you're kind of poking something in the eye because if you

00:38:16.600 were to do the same tweet but exchange all of the quotes from prominent jews uh or examples of

00:38:22.900 prominent jews with a prominent feminist at the time totally promoting porn no one would accuse

00:38:27.440 you of misogyny and no one in our camp would accuse you of misogyny or even more so if i had

00:38:32.200 said a besetting sin of whites in the west has been apostasy no one no one would accuse you of

00:38:38.100 almost nobody would run to the contrary statistics and say oh okay yeah i get what you're saying but

00:38:43.660 actually whites have also been a bulwark in preserving christian faithfulness and actually

00:38:48.780 the most conservative practice of of christianity in the west has been the you know these european

00:38:54.340 and anglo-protestant groups i'd be like no one would do that they would just go that's right

00:38:58.740 because you're critiquing your own kind of camp yeah and and that's all and and you're also you

00:39:04.180 you're basically doing the fire extinguisher flood thing where it's like the culture already

00:39:09.900 is totally down with any anti-white sentiment so if you say something that fits even broadly with

00:39:16.180 you know anti-white sentiment you know just see jeremy carl's book the unnecessary or um the

00:39:21.720 the unprotected the unprotected class i mixed it up with every class the unnecessary i was mixing

00:39:26.780 with buchanan's church book um the unnecessary war so basically like in conclusion to my own

00:39:35.540 question that i asked like you guys are welcome is uh that i i thought will spencer was was was

00:39:44.460 fought was pretty off on that yeah and that he was basically asking clergymen to take on authority

00:39:51.320 that christ did not give them and that he was making a number of uncharitable assumptions that

00:39:57.040 even flirted with question begging with respect to some of the historical political social cultural

00:40:02.500 religious racial questions at the heart of his thesis he was kind of assuming from the outset

00:40:07.980 and he hand waved it like you know there's mountains of evidence read this you know this

00:40:12.500 it's all clear the reality is a lot of these things are not so clear yeah and there is huge

00:40:18.260 historical debate and that actually like you both within and without the church both exactly both

00:40:25.700 within and without church good actors and bad actors yeah you know we the other thing too is

00:40:30.040 that like, whether you're pastoring someone who is a member or someone who's suing for membership,

00:40:36.500 you can't be in the business of proactive punishment for potential sins. And you have

00:40:43.400 to be in the business of addressing punitively the sins that you actually see in people or that

00:40:47.900 they confess to. So, you know, in a membership interview, you may ask like, you know, Hey,

00:40:52.660 just pastorally, do you struggle with anything in particular that you need counseling for that you,

00:40:56.980 you know want accountability as you walk in repentance that you want prayer for but what you

00:41:01.200 can't do is like you seem like the type of guy that beats your wife and so therefore i'm going

00:41:05.400 to treat you as one that beats your wife what you can't do is ask the question like hey do you like

00:41:09.360 the nfl yeah i love the nfl oh so you must be a sabbath breaker you serial set you hate god yeah

00:41:16.500 no you can't do that you're not allowed that's that's not something that god has given the church

00:41:20.720 the authority you're actually dipping in you're dipping your toe pretty deep into a roman catholic

00:41:25.580 error of having juridical oversight over everyone's life like everything like down to the minutiae if

00:41:32.220 you were like hypothetically let's say that you were in a community of people the membership is

00:41:37.500 drawing from the broader community where they have this besetting sin and let's say hypothetically

00:41:42.460 that the besetting sin of the white community you're in is that they love lynching minorities

00:41:47.500 in a murderous way they just love it like it's the besetting sin of their surrounding area

00:41:53.080 now someone's suing for membership in that situation you would be perfectly pastorally

00:41:58.100 within your rights to say what do you think about murdering ethnic minorities yeah and they'd be

00:42:03.940 like oh i'm a christian i don't do that that would actually be sinful yeah you know see the

00:42:08.380 10 commandments or i used to i've i used to do that repent etc etc right now you'd be perfectly

00:42:13.580 within your rights what the question is assuming is that right now like there is just a rampant

00:42:20.080 an unchecked wave of um fatherless bitter-hearted um disaffected basement dwelling incel young men

00:42:33.200 who just like their whole heart is consumed with the hatred of an envy all nine on non-whites

00:42:40.740 and they're full of you can smell the envy and a crackling even you could hear it a lot of the

00:42:46.240 time where i'm seeing the like show me your show the work when i actually get down to talking to

00:42:51.240 people like in our church we have lots of book groups and men talking and there's all sorts of

00:42:56.200 contexts where men are talking about all sorts of issues and of course like right now in the

00:42:59.700 zeitgeist there's a lot of conversations about race and nationalism and liberal democracy and

00:43:04.260 world war ii and um like jewish communism and that extent and there's like we're we're a church full

00:43:11.660 of men we're interested in stuff there's lots of these conversations sitting on any of those

00:43:16.080 conversations, you know what you won't find? Like I haven't found yet a case where I had to take

00:43:21.280 someone aside and say, brother, you are clearly consumed with bitterness. You're blaming all of

00:43:28.380 your problems on this ethereal cabal of et cetera and et cetera. And you are consumed with hatred

00:43:34.260 and envy. What I've actually found are lots of sober conversations that are like people trying

00:43:38.920 to get to the historic political social truth and how to live in light of today and around very

00:43:44.840 controversial questions and a lot of disagreement in that 100 like in our church with our within

00:43:49.660 our church we went through and for our men's book group one of the things we did was read

00:43:53.360 steven wolf's case case for christian nationalism and the campus split yeah within the men in our

00:43:58.680 church and guess what we didn't anathematize each other and we're all still really good friends

00:44:02.640 it's possible yeah you don't have to be autistic about everything absolutely and some some guys

00:44:08.360 that are like very strongly like nationalism is the way to go liberal democracy was a globalist

00:44:13.980 communist like play and there's all these issues with it isn't it clear and then other guys were

00:44:18.420 like i'm skeptical of the nationalism thing i i think that actually the american experiment

00:44:23.940 it was infiltrated by subversives but it fundamentally there's a lot of good there

00:44:29.420 and it's a great system that we should continue to rescue today and constitutionalism like

00:44:34.460 these are complicated genuinely difficult debates anybody who tries to simplify them down and this

00:44:40.700 bothers me on both sides to if you disagree with me you're an idiot and not a christian yeah like

00:44:47.420 that's just not the case guys yeah like and that is spirit that is spiritual and intellectual

00:44:52.100 immaturity yeah spiritual deadness it just shows like it's especially intellectual immaturity yeah

00:44:57.780 because you're not you're not reasoning at that point you're actually just blustering

00:45:04.040 so to beat that question to death all right how about a theological question oh it's your turn

00:45:10.600 though. No, no, no, no, no. Go for it. We have a theological question. Theological question.

00:45:13.700 I didn't even have one post-millennialism. Okay. Okay. Oh, I love this question. I think I know

00:45:19.600 what you're going to ask. If the post-millennialist position is wrong, what are the implications to

00:45:24.840 how you live now? Sinful, greedy, sinfully living with wrong purpose, any massive implications at

00:45:33.380 all, or just being wrong on a doctrinal position like so many are on so many topics? I was wrong

00:45:39.240 about the question. I thought it was going to be the AI one, but which is also a good one. Maybe

00:45:42.460 we'll get to it. I think that's perfect bridge for the next one. Great question. Um, so what

00:45:47.900 if the postmanal position is wrong? How would you live differently? Yeah. So, so like what would

00:45:52.340 the implications be briefly? It's, it's wrong to be wrong. It's not good. So you don't just want

00:45:57.680 to be like, Oh, it would change nothing. There's no implications. There's almost always going to

00:46:01.300 be an implication for being wrong for confessing something false. Um, we want to be correct and

00:46:07.600 in accord with truth, recognizing that in our current state, there are issues with, about which

00:46:14.600 you might be able to have degrees of confidence, but not certainty, even with respect to the

00:46:19.380 biblical data, et cetera. So I would say, first of all, there is going to be some thing that is off

00:46:26.420 somewhere when you're wrong about something, even if it's tiny and minute, when it comes to like

00:46:33.080 how I live my life, what does post-millennialism have to do with it? Post-millennialism is not the

00:46:38.260 most driving factor of how I live my life in terms of family, personal piety, evangelism,

00:46:46.160 church practice, church order. People make this mistake. A lot of the time, even politically,

00:46:50.020 they think that post-millennialism is what entails Christian nationalism or some other

00:46:54.760 political system. It doesn't. The biggest thing that post-millennialism does for me practically

00:47:01.600 is it makes me very hopeful.

00:47:04.680 I have a lot of hope when I consider the future

00:47:08.060 in the face of the unbelief of the nations.

00:47:10.920 I look and I pray this way.

00:47:12.700 It affects how I pray.

00:47:13.720 It affects how I preach

00:47:15.080 when I'm talking about these issues.

00:47:17.600 It doesn't affect how I educate my children.

00:47:21.140 It doesn't affect how I view my duties in marriage.

00:47:24.640 These are, those derive from other doctrines.

00:47:27.640 And I think that's an important distinction to make.

00:47:30.200 i'll leave it there because i'm sure ben has some things to add yeah i think in youtube the question

00:47:35.020 doesn't doesn't necessitate that a other known eschatological position is correct so it's not

00:47:43.300 saying if post-millennialism is proven wrong and you are then therefore this thing so i i would not

00:47:50.340 become a dispensationalist i wouldn't become a pre-millennialist um and jury'd be out on

00:47:56.220 amillennialism. And it also doesn't assume, the question doesn't assume that I never knew about

00:48:01.920 postmillennialism. So I think these are important things. Reason being is because it was through

00:48:07.480 learning from other ministers about postmillennialism that I was exposed to other doctrines

00:48:12.720 that are only adjacently related to it. Like the doctrine of vocation, for example, and the

00:48:18.640 doctrine of the nations and things like that. So I actually think that it would change nothing

00:48:22.840 about how I live my everyday life.

00:48:26.220 Yeah, it's just not the doctrine

00:48:28.060 from which the practical Christian living questions arise.

00:48:32.820 The only thing it would change

00:48:33.940 is I wouldn't be nearly as confident as I am today

00:48:38.360 that Utah will someday be a Christian state.

00:48:41.360 That would literally be the only thing that it changes.

00:48:43.380 Because the thing where like post-millennialism

00:48:45.400 fundamentally is a conviction about when Christ will return.

00:48:50.640 Yeah. And the success of the, our obedience to the command, it doesn't change the command.

00:48:58.160 So whether you're pre-millennial, amillennial, post-millennial, historically post-millennial,

00:49:02.420 or like some of the more modern versions, that doesn't change that all of us would agree we

00:49:08.400 should be discipling the nations. Our children. We disagree about what that entails, but those

00:49:13.600 actually even derive from other doctrines. Yeah. We're in the world, but we're not of the world.

00:49:17.720 So we're still building institutions.

00:49:18.900 We're still calling people to repent, calling patients to, like it literally, the post-millennialism means that we believe Christ will return after the millennial reign.

00:49:29.020 That's what it means.

00:49:30.740 Yep.

00:49:31.420 So it's literally a doctrine that defines when you believe the bodily return of Christ in glory will come in reference to the millennial reign.

00:49:39.960 and so because that's actually the doctrine you can talk about implications all day but those

00:49:46.440 implications are related to other doctrines they're not contained in post-millennialism like a hermetic

00:49:51.680 seal and so for that reason yeah it would actually it would literally change nothing about how i live

00:49:56.600 my life the only thing i would add to that definition is that it also entails the successful

00:50:02.620 evangelism of the world but even millennials believe that christ returns after the millennials

00:50:06.400 Right. But, but even then, like, and you can see this with amillennials who some of them are more

00:50:10.780 or less hopeful. It's an, it's an, it's an implication of the doctrine. It's not like

00:50:15.400 a necessary part of it. I think that post-millennialism isn't post-millennialism.

00:50:20.860 If you don't believe like the thing that distinguishes amillennialism from post-millennialism

00:50:25.740 is the successful evangelism of the nations. Well, see, that's where you get into a functional,

00:50:30.420 similarity between modern post-millennialism and amillennialism? Because amillennials believe that

00:50:38.200 Christ is reigning right now from heaven. And there's a spectrum of how visible that spiritual

00:50:44.780 reign is on the earth. But then the typical post-millennial position would be that Christ

00:50:52.520 actually reigns from heaven on the earth for a literal thousand years that we could be in now,

00:50:58.320 or we may not be in now, we actually don't know, we could judge by the fruit and make it and make

00:51:03.000 a judgment. Uh, but it, but it doesn't. And, and so therefore when that millennial reign is going

00:51:08.800 on, yes. Okay. I get to your point. Like, yes, it will mean that it's the golden age of the church

00:51:15.440 on the earth. So it will be successful, but it doesn't have to be successful right now for

00:51:19.200 post-millennial. Not today. No. And in fact, it doesn't have to be successful for the next 30,000

00:51:24.080 years right and it could still be a post-millennial uh post-millennialism could still be true and

00:51:29.300 classical post-millennial the distinction that i want to make is that you have um the two main

00:51:35.340 forms of post-millennialism one shares the timeline with amillennialism yeah in this and this would be

00:51:42.460 the view that i hold that the millennium is not a literal thousand years but it actually begins

00:51:47.580 with the enthronement of Christ and continues.

00:51:50.360 And that in that period,

00:51:52.340 Christ will return after the nations have been converted.

00:51:57.700 Historic, older versions of post-millennialism

00:52:00.700 would affirm that the millennium will be,

00:52:05.920 oftentimes a literal thousand years,

00:52:08.680 and it will begin at a point of a kind of golden age

00:52:11.400 when the nations have been converted

00:52:13.200 and then Christ reigns on earth through his people

00:52:15.140 for a thousand years, then he returns.

00:52:16.540 but the distinct the distinction is really like yeah amillennialism doesn't hold uh but there's

00:52:23.820 no version of post-millennialism that is actually what people mean by post-millennialism that

00:52:28.040 doesn't entail the conversion of the nations yeah whether that's 90 50 whatever there might

00:52:34.140 be disagreeing about scope but all of them that's kind of a it's like an essential component implied

00:52:38.260 in the doctrine but it's a good and necessary implication so it's it's essentially yoked to it

00:52:42.660 yeah yeah yeah you're right it doesn't change how we people often who are not post-millennialist

00:52:48.800 assume that a lot of our practical piety or social like political doctrines derived from

00:52:58.160 post-millennialism yeah when they actually don't they they just don't i would say that a

00:53:05.040 dispensationalist like this isn't hypothetical it commonly happened that dispensationalists made

00:53:10.760 very real practical decisions about their life that were based on the assumption that sometimes

00:53:17.040 Christ is going to return this decade or like by a specific year or that that has happened several

00:53:23.100 times um it's not necessary to dispensationalism to be clear it just has happened frequently and

00:53:30.120 that I think is can can be problematic correlation yeah I'm not I mean look guys

00:53:35.080 we're not we're not saying that you believe that

00:53:38.940 yeah it's really difficult to deal in in this way because you know i understand brian what you said

00:53:46.100 about how post-millennialism hasn't necessarily isn't like the driving factor between behind all

00:53:52.880 of our theological motivations no but i think what post-millennialism did uh from my perspective

00:53:58.260 is that it's actually more like a zeal meter,

00:54:02.380 like it cranked up zeal way high

00:54:05.440 on a lot of these different biblical commands.

00:54:08.840 Now, post-millennialism isn't the driver

00:54:10.960 for the biblical commands,

00:54:12.180 but it actually did drive the zeal

00:54:15.180 for a lot of these biblical commands.

00:54:17.540 Like just the way I think, the way I'm wired,

00:54:20.320 I just think very long-term.

00:54:22.520 So I'm making investments and things like that.

00:54:25.340 I'm not thinking about the stuff that I can get.

00:54:27.800 or my retirement. I'm thinking about like generationally, you know, enabling my sons

00:54:33.960 to be great patriarchs to a thousand generations. Like what can I do for my generations to set them

00:54:40.220 up for success? It's still post-millennialism isn't the command, but it is informing like the

00:54:48.440 obedience to the command through zeal. So it's difficult for me to actually imagine, like you

00:54:54.380 said, Ben, like which theological conviction would I have as far as my eschatology is concerned?

00:55:00.700 And how would that affect my thinking? It's actually really difficult to even put myself

00:55:05.560 in that, in that position because it's just flavored so much of the way that I think.

00:55:12.180 I'm kind of assuming that the, with this question that I would still know all that I know now.

00:55:18.060 Yeah. And I, and I wouldn't be forced into not knowing what I know now and adopt

00:55:24.360 adopting a eschatological position that I don't currently hold, which would mean that basically

00:55:28.720 I'd be in this limbo state of pan millennialism. It pans out in the end. Yeah. I mean, I would,

00:55:33.780 I would basically be in this limbo state of saying like, well, okay, post-millennialism is wrong,

00:55:37.640 but like, I don't know what I am now, but that actually doesn't change my day to day because of

00:55:42.820 what partly because of how post-mill helped informed my zeal for certain things. Yes. I

00:55:49.840 think it was a trainer of zeal yeah is primarily the influence that post-millennialism has had on

00:55:55.900 a day-to-day life because it's not like i sit around and just think post-millennial you know

00:56:01.480 golden age thoughts all day long right it's a sauce it is it is the sauce it's not the meat

00:56:06.760 it's the sauce yeah it's like it is a sauce it's like that uh it's like that cheese whiz sauce on

00:56:12.620 a philly cheesesteak oh man you know like it's really good sure sure speaking of i could do a

00:56:18.300 all right do you guys have any i have more questions you have questions that you pulled

00:56:24.080 up here what do we got oh one of them was good uh how do you leave a church well when there hasn't

00:56:30.320 been some big drama or anything there's just you disagree you you feel as though you disagree with

00:56:35.480 enough of the teaching to say there's a better option for my family where there's more like

00:56:40.980 mindedness how do you go about leaving that church well um or do you even go about leaving

00:56:46.860 that church well? I thought it was a good question. What do you think, Dan? Well, if this is assuming

00:56:50.700 that there is a church that matches your convictions better, that's, you know, an option.

00:56:58.380 First step is that if you're a member in the church that you're currently dissatisfied with,

00:57:03.460 you know, or just have theological differences, it doesn't mean that you actually like despise

00:57:07.960 them or anything like that. The first step is just to talk to them and just say like,

00:57:12.980 is there any way that we can be at peace? This is what I, these are my theological convictions,

00:57:17.380 or these are my convictions, whatever they may be. Um, there's such a whole scope within that,

00:57:22.500 uh, because some people, um, you know, some members of a church are like, I could, I just

00:57:27.300 cannot stand being at a church that, you know, would only sing Psalms or that, or they wouldn't

00:57:36.500 only, only, yeah. It's something like that. It's just like, I'm just, my conscience is pricked.

00:57:41.440 There's no way I can live peaceably at a church like this.

00:57:44.660 And beside, I've got 15 other things that really bother me about you people.

00:57:48.460 And they're just really unreasonable and pedantic.

00:57:51.280 And, and, you know, you have to be aware, like not to be that person that you actually

00:57:56.480 have to show Christian charity.

00:57:58.780 But that being said, the first step is to actually just talk to your elders because

00:58:03.380 they're shepherding your soul.

00:58:04.960 They have to give an account to God for the state of your souls.

00:58:08.480 And so that would be the first step.

00:58:10.320 And then the second would be to talk to the church that you would be considering transferring to.

00:58:16.040 And then working with those two church bodies to actually the elders of both churches to actually facilitate some sort of transfer of membership.

00:58:25.240 Yeah.

00:58:25.480 Showing courtesy to both.

00:58:26.740 Absolutely.

00:58:27.400 Yeah.

00:58:27.600 And being charitable and leaving peacefully and to not make some big scene.

00:58:33.500 Yeah.

00:58:33.600 The other thing is that that's a temptation is that when somebody is dissatisfied, say there's just, I just don't prefer the preaching or there's these theological things that really bother me.

00:58:43.940 It doesn't seem like a good enough reason to leave.

00:58:46.320 So I have to find some disqualifying sin and absolutely blast this church in order to make sure that I, you know, these elders aren't qualified to be elders.

00:58:58.220 I don't recognize them as true shepherds.

00:59:01.100 And so they can't do anything to me because this isn't a true church over something that

00:59:05.840 was actually not that big a deal.

00:59:07.540 And you let bitterness grow and you had to invent something.

00:59:10.320 And so you found something because lo and behold, everybody sins, even ministers of

00:59:15.100 the word, you know, they sin.

00:59:16.900 And so that's another correlating temptation that people have.

00:59:20.200 Don't do that.

00:59:21.300 Like that, that's actually really bad.

00:59:23.100 and so it's it's i will just say it's best to be direct and honest with your elders in the beginning

00:59:31.160 and don't give an opportunity of roots of bitterness to grow do not talk to other people

00:59:37.020 about this this is not an opportunity to gossip as like i have some concerns about the elders of

00:59:42.440 the church or these theological things like just talk to the ministers yeah and and and then you

00:59:48.920 know go through those steps that i described i think that's probably the the most vanilla

00:59:52.740 you know way that you could go through this without knowing any particulars indeed i agree

00:59:58.260 with all that man well clearly my question was the best because i mean yeah we talked about it

01:00:02.880 for the least amount of time well because i answered it of course there you go what about

01:00:07.160 what about this one boys the ai one well that one next oh i forgot about that one do you have that

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01:03:45.900 Exchange Commission. How do you raise your sons and daughters in a future? I got it right here.

01:03:50.700 Yeah, let's do that one, and then I have another one.

01:03:54.300 Okay. 0.95

01:03:54.720 Hey, how do you raise your sons and daughters for the future

01:03:57.460 where AI and robotics have replaced most household duties and professions?

01:04:02.120 What types of things should fathers be thinking about

01:04:05.020 and preparing their kids for in order to lead and be good stewards in the future?

01:04:09.440 He gives an example.

01:04:10.720 Let's say Tesla's Optimus is $300 a month and can do all the household tasks.

01:04:15.340 Do we then become Luddites,

01:04:16.580 or do we integrate robots somehow

01:04:18.840 into our home economy and business economy?

01:04:21.700 One initial thought that has been rolling around my mind

01:04:27.020 is that we can't underestimate

01:04:29.480 how important this shift will likely be.

01:04:34.860 It will probably have profound effects on the economy.

01:04:39.220 Yes.

01:04:39.520 So we really should be thinking about this.

01:04:41.980 We can't just have our, like, we can't.

01:04:43.480 People that were around

01:04:45.260 for the beginning of the automobile

01:04:46.720 or people that were around

01:04:48.360 for the industrial revolution

01:04:49.740 powered by coal,

01:04:51.440 they didn't all see like,

01:04:54.700 oh, this is really going to make

01:04:55.900 this big of a difference.

01:04:57.400 And it did change everything.

01:05:00.060 And in our world,

01:05:01.580 the changes accelerates.

01:05:03.220 It doesn't take a few decades.

01:05:04.640 Some of these things might take a decade.

01:05:07.180 You know, the gap from 2022 to 2032

01:05:10.440 could be fairly significant

01:05:12.760 in a lot of these things.

01:05:14.080 uh so that's the first step practically is like you should be thinking about it i think you have

01:05:19.240 to just ignore it yeah i will say this okay so i asked ai how many jobs will ai replace by the

01:05:27.200 year 2030 goldman it quotes goldman sachs in a 2023 article so this is old it could replace up

01:05:35.800 to 25 percent whoa of jobs in the u.s and this is something that i've actually been paying attention

01:05:41.680 to as I invest in different companies and things like that, including Tesla. And they might even

01:05:50.580 be merging with XAI, which is Grok and stuff like that. Anyway, beside the point, they're talking

01:05:57.920 like tens of millions of jobs across the US that could actually be replaced by AI. And then if you

01:06:05.520 introduce robotics, which the advances in robotics are actually tremendous, yes, to just piggyback

01:06:11.380 on your earlier point, Brian,

01:06:12.940 it is tempting to underestimate

01:06:15.940 how many jobs that AI and robotics

01:06:20.440 can actually replace.

01:06:22.000 This is already happening.

01:06:23.940 There are companies that are laying off

01:06:25.520 major percentages of their workforce

01:06:29.600 because AI tools are so useful.

01:06:33.180 So then, like, how do you prepare

01:06:34.880 your sons and daughters for that?

01:06:35.960 One thing that Pastor Sovey here

01:06:38.280 has mentioned actually

01:06:39.520 in our school board meetings

01:06:41.060 is on the importance of teaching our children how to use tools like AI. And that might make

01:06:49.180 people kind of cringe a little bit because it's the unknown, you know, kind of fearful.

01:06:54.560 Let's just do a, just an example. If you were to go back in time, it's, you know, the year 2000

01:07:04.380 and you were describing to people what the internet would be cell phones would be things like that

01:07:12.300 what do you think the reaction would be for those people there's no i mean i had a i'm pretty sure i

01:07:20.180 had a corded phone or maybe a cordless phone home phone in the year 2000 um i mean i was 16 years

01:07:27.200 old in 2000 like y2k i don't yeah you don't even remember that i was five you were five years old

01:07:34.680 yeah i remember i was in montana yeah i mean waited till midnight you were like nine you don't

01:07:40.040 need you don't need books anymore you can just search anything you want schools will be irrelevant

01:07:45.700 because you can just learn on youtube um you know the whole like uh telephone world telecommunications

01:07:53.140 world will be gone it'll all be on cell phones now you can carry a computer in your pocket that

01:07:57.820 can tell you anything about anything you want to know like how was that actually going to change

01:08:02.260 the world well it ended up changing the world dramatically you now have cars that can drive you

01:08:07.980 yeah like yeah you know that quest doesn't even exist in map quest yeah that's right

01:08:12.800 r.i.p to map quest yeah yeah and it did change the economy dramatically i mean if you just look

01:08:20.860 at the S and P uh I bet the top five companies are all internet-based businesses right like

01:08:27.040 primarily digital footprint businesses you know so it does change everything but so what is your

01:08:33.580 reaction to it do you do you reject it and become a Luddite because that would that was a temptation

01:08:38.660 like also uh giving giving these uh year 2000 people or or earlier you know uh oh by the way

01:08:45.920 internet pornography is a huge problem and it's going to be everywhere. And, um, you know, you

01:08:51.480 carry a brothel in your pocket, you know? And so the temptation is like, well, that we can't have

01:08:56.200 anything to do with that. Absolutely not. It's absolutely wicked and evil. Uh, can't have

01:09:00.540 anything to do with the internet, with cell phones, nothing like that. And so become a Luddite.

01:09:05.180 And I don't, I don't think that's the answer. It's it, it is, uh, something that you have to

01:09:09.860 learn to use and learn to use righteously. And so what are the, the question should be,

01:09:14.540 what are the opportunities that present themselves in the future if robotics and if ai replaces a lot

01:09:20.600 of uh essentially the way that i look at it working in the in the white collar world for a

01:09:25.220 while in a cubicle um there was one one point in which i distinctly remember i was like i'm i'm a

01:09:31.200 white collar factory worker is kind of how i felt yeah going in my cubicle doing data entry and

01:09:37.240 things like that like this is assembly line work with white collar wrappings okay so those jobs

01:09:43.880 will be gone. What are the opportunities that exist? And I think the blue collar world is

01:09:49.460 definitely one of the major opportunities that exist as well as being able to work with robotics,

01:09:55.820 being able to work in AI. Um, but there's limitations to everything. Like the internet

01:10:00.900 can't do everything. We still publish books, right? We still do things like that. People

01:10:06.660 still want people things. They still want people things. Yes. And I think actually with the

01:10:12.460 knowledge that AI is able to reproduce, uh, eventually you have to think that they, it's

01:10:19.660 not original ideas. It's a compilation of ideas that have existed. Knowledge work will become

01:10:26.420 even more important as people rely on old, old work that's been done before. And so you still

01:10:33.260 are going to need great minds that actually are able to think through very difficult issues in

01:10:37.860 the future. So there's still tons of opportunity. I think that exists in the future, but I don't

01:10:43.560 think being a Luddite is, is actually the answer. Yeah. I think one, like it'll be annoying and

01:10:50.660 difficult. It'll be a hard growing pain, but probably good overall is that I do think it'll

01:10:55.820 eventually get people out of this mindset, this boomer mindset of like my, my kid needs to go to

01:11:01.400 college and then they'll be set and they need to get all this student debt, but then they'll be

01:11:05.520 set because they're going to get a good job because they went to college. No, a lot of AI

01:11:09.560 is going to replace any job that you might get from many, many degrees that you could attain in

01:11:16.140 college. So that's good. Maybe it'll kind of cut us out of that funk. One thing on the, on the

01:11:22.360 lady's side that I was just thinking through, you know, his example is like, what if a housemaid

01:11:27.520 robot is able for $300 a month to do all of the household chores like excellently? I mean,

01:11:33.980 the house is immaculately kept. Well, that's not unlawful. I mean, Paul gives credence to the

01:11:40.780 category of having household servants in the New Testament. And people had household servants if

01:11:45.620 they were elites or even like middle elites for a lot of human history. And that's fine. So like,

01:11:54.060 yeah, I mean, if you can afford it and you want a household servant that's a robot, like get the

01:11:58.660 household servant that's a robot, that doesn't mean that your wife is now useless. That doesn't 0.62

01:12:02.860 mean that she doesn't, or that she now gets to like twiddle her thumbs all day and not know how

01:12:07.040 to do anything and have nothing to do. She can just get fat and drink wine and watch Gilmore 0.94

01:12:11.780 girls. Uh, no, she still has to be a woman. She still has to run the home economy. She still has 1.00

01:12:16.600 to manage the children. She has to do all these things. So I wouldn't, I don't think the knee 1.00

01:12:21.820 jerk reaction to fear is good. Um, and I don't think the knee jerk reaction to rejecting is good,

01:12:28.600 but i also don't think the wholesale adopting of it is good either i think that you have to

01:12:33.340 approach it with wisdom and recognize that since ai actually is not intelligent like definitionally

01:12:39.420 it is not intelligence no you can't assume in your response that it is intelligence one way or the

01:12:46.520 other so you have to think through it yeah so a couple things one that's very important we need to

01:12:51.440 become experts in relentlessly telling the truth about what ai is and is not ai cannot know anything

01:12:59.480 ai is not an intelligence ai does not have a soul all of these things that again it has no will the

01:13:06.520 chinese room experiment if you're if you just want to look up why a computer or a neural network

01:13:11.160 isn't the same thing as a as a person just look up the chinese room experiment i think it's i don't

01:13:16.500 think it's been adequately refuted and you could look at parker's um pence's his youtube channel

01:13:23.280 he interviews ai philosophers um i think cr wiley is working on some of this so that's one thing

01:13:30.560 to prepare our children we need to make sure that they don't blur the line like many people will do

01:13:34.820 about what an ai is because many evils will follow from people not understanding that

01:13:40.940 two i i believe in punctuated ludditism when it comes to raising our children and what i mean by

01:13:47.340 that is that we need to not allow them to experience or be introduced to the regular

01:13:55.580 routine part of life practice of a lot of technologies until a certain age so i would not

01:14:00.700 i would say children should not have a social media before they are men and women they just

01:14:06.440 shouldn't have them. It's not going to be helpful. It will be an unnecessary distraction. I would say

01:14:11.680 children should not make it their regular practice to use AI tools in their routine, everyday tasks

01:14:19.420 when they're in their formative years in school, things like that. What Dan said,

01:14:25.560 I believe children need to learn how to use it in the same way that like I had a typing class

01:14:30.200 in school. I learned typing at school and my public school and kids need to learn. They should

01:14:35.880 stay abreast of what's happening culturally. Typing was so hard for me. It's gotta be because

01:14:39.880 of my, my disability, your disability. Um, so they need to learn it as a tool, but they also need to

01:14:46.620 be protected from it for, for a long formative period of time, which is what I mean by punctuated

01:14:52.060 Luddite ism like there, there's a period where they don't. And then, um, to, to some measure

01:14:57.800 degree, we want to give them the tools of self mastery because one of the things that can happen

01:15:01.880 with AI as AI as a tool tools are not neutral tools shape us the tools we pick up and use they

01:15:07.580 actually aren't just neutral implements in our hands they affect us so people who immediately

01:15:13.000 wholesale adopt AI to start replacing as much of their life as possible are being shaped by that

01:15:17.540 into a less human thing because AI purports to write for you think for you plan for you research

01:15:24.420 for you do everything for you that's extremely dangerous when we're at when we are asking

01:15:30.680 something to do for us, fundamental aspects of what it is to be human, think, speak, reason.

01:15:38.780 So a wise man who has self-mastery and maturity can use a tool in a way that makes him more human

01:15:46.440 or more virtuously human. But an unwise person can be taken in by a tool in a way that makes

01:15:54.460 them less human. Social media is a great example. In the hands of a wise man, social media can be a

01:16:00.540 tremendous blessing to him and to others in the hands of a fool social media will shape you to

01:16:06.220 the ends to its ends um it will make you think in unsophisticated short blurby kind of ways

01:16:13.500 it will interrupt your ability for sustained thinking and reasoning so we need to make sure

01:16:18.940 that we are doing something on on a level like the amish do where the amish they make sure that

01:16:25.420 at the scent like the center of their project is maintaining their culture people humanity that's

01:16:30.420 the center of what they're doing to their own principles and ends. And I don't agree with all

01:16:34.620 of those. We need to have a similar mindset. I'm not saying about Ludditism, but I'm saying about

01:16:41.040 the preservation of humanity and culture and creating human beings who can be human beings

01:16:47.180 excellently and think well and reason and do all of these things. So when I'm thinking of

01:16:53.180 preparing my children, that's what it is. I want them to know what it is to read books,

01:16:57.740 not to go have the illusion of reading books

01:16:59.800 by getting AI to summarize them in three paragraphs.

01:17:02.020 Yeah.

01:17:02.620 So to that point, I typed into ChatGPT

01:17:06.420 and ChatGPT knows all of my theological convictions,

01:17:09.760 personal convictions and all that

01:17:10.800 because I put it in there.

01:17:12.660 And I said, keeping my convictions in mind,

01:17:14.960 how can I effectively raise my sons

01:17:16.460 to be productive members of society

01:17:18.020 in an age where AI could potentially take over

01:17:20.080 many opportunities in the job market?

01:17:22.020 And these are the principles that spit out.

01:17:23.480 And it's actually like pretty funny

01:17:24.760 that I'm using AI to do this.

01:17:27.260 But to your point about using it as a tool, you're shaping men before shaping workers.

01:17:33.200 So you're getting into the anthropology.

01:17:35.320 You're teaching your sons and daughters what people are and what they are as little men and little women who will be big someday.

01:17:43.800 So you're teaching responsibility, actual skills, hands-on skills, stewardship of time, discipline with screen usage and technology.

01:17:52.400 You're catechizing them into the faith from a very early age.

01:17:55.500 whether you're farming programming or managing people they should see it as doing it to the

01:18:00.200 glory of god you're instilling anti-fragility exposing them to risk letting them fail letting

01:18:05.240 them skin their knees letting them lead small ventures even if it's one the oldest kid in a

01:18:11.020 group of kids leading the construction of a fort you know okay you're teaching them physical skills

01:18:16.540 you're encouraging mastery over trends classical education it recommends classical education is a

01:18:22.740 great model for this. You are developing entrepreneurial thinking. It says AI will

01:18:28.060 automate jobs, but not value creation. So you're teaching them to create value in the society

01:18:34.380 wherein they exist, forming deep real world relationships, rooting them in a thick church

01:18:38.440 life, teaching them to see AI as a tool that they master, not something that masters them.

01:18:43.600 And then it gives all these, all these like ways to do this, like practical, practical tips. And

01:18:49.400 I thought that was really interesting that, uh, now granted it, it has all of my, uh, kind of

01:18:55.680 presuppositions fed to it. And so once again, AI is not thinking and it's not willing. It's basing

01:19:02.300 this response off of what I believe, but it gives you when it, when it knows your convictions,

01:19:08.780 it can read the Bible very fast and it knows how, you know, the, the, the tradition that you

01:19:13.900 subscribe to. It can actually give you helpful things that you can then take and you can run

01:19:19.960 with in your life to say, well, these are the principles that I'm then going to operate by,

01:19:23.280 or some of them, and you tweak whatever. Such that my child has a punctuated Luddite period,

01:19:31.320 but when they come into the world, and they will be in the world, they actually know how to operate

01:19:37.400 in a way that sets them above the class of people

01:19:41.220 that are willing to give over their humanity

01:19:44.760 to this thing that's not a human.

01:19:46.600 So it's actually an opportunity

01:19:48.160 for sons and daughters to grow up into elites,

01:19:53.340 Christian elites in a world

01:19:55.100 that's not gonna know what a human being even is anymore.

01:19:57.600 It's not gonna know how to add value

01:19:59.220 to the society that you live in.

01:20:01.700 And so that's actually a great opportunity

01:20:03.240 for the gospel to then propagate

01:20:04.640 and change hearts and nations.

01:20:06.800 I want to add something as well to this

01:20:08.360 that just came to mind

01:20:09.400 because I'm thinking about this question of Ludditism.

01:20:11.320 I'm thinking of the Amish.

01:20:12.280 I'm thinking of some of these questions.

01:20:13.740 I'm very sympathetic to the person who says,

01:20:16.320 I'm actually interested in creating a culture,

01:20:19.520 not just me, but my family and the people around us

01:20:21.960 where we intentionally don't use a lot of AI or any at all.

01:20:26.380 And I'm thinking of that.

01:20:27.720 Maybe they would say, I wouldn't get the household robot.

01:20:29.620 Maybe they'd say, I'm not going to do all this stuff.

01:20:31.840 And I'm thinking in terms of the principles

01:20:34.620 and I want to steel man and defend that

01:20:36.840 and say that actually we need Christians

01:20:39.160 to do some work in this area, I think.

01:20:41.280 And we're at an infancy of our thinking

01:20:43.680 about some of these things.

01:20:45.200 Give you an example.

01:20:46.140 If it was possible to replace through a technology

01:20:51.620 all eating, so you could just take a pill

01:20:57.180 and it would meet every nutritional need you had

01:21:02.260 and it would also produce a brief hallucination

01:21:05.200 that gave you the satisfaction of eating food.

01:21:09.620 Should Christians adopt that technology wholesale?

01:21:12.280 Is that a good idea?

01:21:13.620 I'm actually not trying to answer that right now.

01:21:15.540 I'm just saying we can think of situations

01:21:18.060 where we would rightly say that technology is actually bad.

01:21:24.680 Yeah.

01:21:24.900 That's a bad idea.

01:21:26.460 Some innovations should be rejected outright.

01:21:28.460 There's something about that that is militating against what God created a human being to be and to do.

01:21:36.820 So I do want us to think carefully and craftily and cunningly about technological advance in general and not just go, oh, it's all post-millennialism.

01:21:48.140 Yeah.

01:21:48.480 It's all just like, woo, post-millennial hope.

01:21:50.780 Like, look, Palantir, and they've given, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, hang on.

01:21:55.220 There are things that make us human that we could theoretically come up with technological ways to solve that maybe in solving them, we would destroy ourselves or harm ourselves significantly.

01:22:09.480 Could I invent a technology that allowed me to never need to speak because I could just telepathically communicate?

01:22:16.100 Like there's all sorts of technological supposals that we could do where all of us would stop for a second and go, something about that seems really off.

01:22:23.280 Yeah. And I do think we need to just be careful. Yeah. It's worth always keeping in mind that a lot of the people that are really pushing this technology, uh, are really into transhumanism and actually turning humanity into something quote unquote more than it is, which is to say less than it is. And so, yeah, like to show my cards, when it comes to lab grown meat, I'm a Luddite.

01:22:49.240 yeah i'm just not i'm not in that's not a post-millennial innovation that's garbage

01:22:53.920 and it should burn in hell and i hate lab-grown meat uh so yeah yeah there's some things and

01:22:59.240 it's genuinely like it's it's hard to live in a time you think about we look back on the

01:23:05.120 industrial revolution and we can identify and we've done it on the king's hall 5 10 15 aspects

01:23:10.800 of the industrial revolution that led to system and network effects that were deleterious that

01:23:17.740 harmed society and the social fabric in ways that are still unfolding like a slow motion car wreck

01:23:23.220 to the family um to masculinity femininity the duties like the things that made us human

01:23:29.180 and you can't roll back and say that we're now going to return to a prime i'm not saying the

01:23:33.300 prime the the romantics were right and we should return to a state rousseau was right and let's go

01:23:37.880 to a noble savage state not i'm not saying that um but it actually is difficult to think clearly

01:23:44.040 and prophetically about the future

01:23:45.920 when you're in the early stages

01:23:48.080 of a paradigm-changing technological event.

01:23:51.860 Yeah.

01:23:52.160 And we are in that.

01:23:53.600 Yeah.

01:23:54.040 The hope is that man does have the capability

01:23:58.860 with the wisdom of God

01:24:00.680 to know the times as well as he can.

01:24:03.520 And the hope that the preacher is right in Ecclesiastes

01:24:06.980 that there is nothing new under the sun.

01:24:09.460 So like innovation is not creation from nothing.

01:24:13.200 It's not something that is truly, in a classical sense of the word, new.

01:24:18.580 And so, since we're still in the infancy, like, I don't have answers for this,

01:24:23.000 but it does give us hope to say, like, with intentional thought, with practice,

01:24:28.300 we can get to the point where we realize that just like everything else in the world,

01:24:33.460 AI is not something truly new, and we can learn to understand the times

01:24:37.980 in a way that maintains righteousness before God

01:24:41.400 and human thriving on the world that God made.

01:24:44.180 Yeah.

01:24:44.920 I have two more questions I'm interested in

01:24:47.180 working through briefly.

01:24:49.300 Is that good with you guys?

01:24:51.520 Two more?

01:24:52.300 Yeah, sure.

01:24:53.560 Okay, Dan.

01:24:54.400 Here's one of them.

01:24:55.760 Is it possible to over respond to pride month?

01:24:58.700 It's something I've been thinking about lately

01:25:00.460 because it seems like for the past couple of years,

01:25:03.220 the pagans really haven't been pushing it as hard.

01:25:05.260 And the majority of mentions of it

01:25:06.660 that i see come from christians fighting against it obviously it's good to fight these things but

01:25:11.380 it seems like there comes a point where we're drawing more attention to it than the pagans are

01:25:15.780 which would be counterproductive what do you guys think

01:25:18.340 i don't know if this is a follow-up i've had pushback on several posts i've made about pride

01:25:24.960 month that are like the sodomites are really nasty and we should you know my instinct on this

01:25:32.320 is that you think about the mistake

01:25:35.720 that the Anglo-Saxons made commonly

01:25:38.060 in their early warfare with the Vikings,

01:25:39.880 which is that they didn't understand

01:25:43.000 the principle of pursuit in warfare.

01:25:44.960 So the second that the Vikings would turn on a battle

01:25:47.840 and retreat, they would go, oh, we won.

01:25:50.300 And they would stop.

01:25:52.320 And Alfred learned that, no, what you do

01:25:54.760 is you go and you pursue them

01:25:56.060 and you kill every single last one of them,

01:25:57.940 or you imprison them, you capture them.

01:26:01.800 and that's it you utterly destroy the enemy army until there is no army left you do not let them

01:26:08.480 retreat and regroup and fortify and all of that and to me i think this question illustrates i'm

01:26:14.220 not insult i'm not intending to insult the questioner i think it's a decent question that

01:26:18.340 can illustrate a good point but i think our instinct on the right to ask questions like

01:26:23.860 these and have this instinct is an example of one of the reasons that we have been subjected to the

01:26:31.340 ratcheting effect of the left where they ratchet up a new thing and then they never go back they

01:26:37.240 just hold that line and they ratchet you further and further left and they've won on every major

01:26:42.680 social issue marriage sexuality homosexuality they've won on pretty much everything in the

01:26:52.020 gay marriage like they've won on all of it and they've never given back those victories that

01:26:56.340 they've taken so what happens is that the left they've been sprinting for about five years 10

01:27:02.000 five to 10 years towards sexual insanity so we went from obama running in 08 on gay no gay marriage

01:27:09.620 like not i'm not for gay marriage barack obama to we are now going to sell at target

01:27:16.720 pants underwear for transgender children that want to stuff and pretend like they're the opposite 0.74

01:27:23.040 sex and bras and we have um we're going to give a harmful chemical castrating hormone treatments

01:27:32.420 to children like that happened in less than 15 years that transition they sprinted leftward and

01:27:39.280 what we've got now is cultural gay fatigue where even normies are like sick of it like i'm sick of

01:27:45.000 men winning women's sports competitions the low-hanging fruit stuff yeah i'm sick of trannies

01:27:49.620 and bathrooms leering at children men dressed as women who are just perverted sex fiends i'm i'm

01:27:56.800 sick of it we've got gay fatigue culturally so there's this cultural moment where a lot of

01:28:01.860 companies are kind of oh yeah i'm not going to do as much pride month stuff as i did two years ago

01:28:06.660 and in all this and and rightly a lot of on the right we're going we've we're winning let's but

01:28:14.280 my instinct when i see we're winning kind of is let's pursue until it's unthinkable that we

01:28:21.860 wouldn't have laws against sodomy in america like that's where i want to go which is are we close to

01:28:28.380 that no no no no no i do think it's really important to understand strategically you're

01:28:35.800 talking tactics strategy whatever if for example if it was proposed that obergefell to the supreme

01:28:42.540 court should be overturned like do you think that the leftist gay troops would be rallied

01:28:49.640 and you'd see pride parades like year-round oh yeah like absolutely like it's still there

01:28:54.960 they ratcheted there they're gonna hold there's just a false piece right now and so it's like

01:28:59.480 oh i i get the instinct like hey there's some sort of peace let's just leave it alone let's

01:29:04.300 not talk about gay stuff at all it's gross yeah i don't want to talk about it i don't want to

01:29:08.160 think about it i'm sick of it so let's just not talk about it at all i get the instinct yeah

01:29:12.980 because but it's just a false piece conservatives are normal people who like normal human stuff

01:29:18.500 and liberals are civilization destroying evil lizard people who hate all that is good true

01:29:25.500 and beautiful and want to destroy the world so conservatives just a lot of them this is one of

01:29:30.560 our besetting sins is that we want to be left alone and and when we just want to be left alone

01:29:35.360 Do you know what the left does?

01:29:36.480 They go conquer the world.

01:29:38.360 It's like saying, let's ignore the Muslims.

01:29:42.140 Oh, really?

01:29:43.140 Yeah. 0.99

01:29:43.440 You're going to ignore them until your child is a sex slave and you're slaughtered.

01:29:47.840 Yeah.

01:29:48.260 Like historically speaking.

01:29:49.800 So we have this besetting sin in the right and in conservative circles of apathy and thinking that the first victory is the war.

01:30:01.280 Oh, Trump gets elected.

01:30:03.020 It's all done.

01:30:04.220 have we deported 40 million people have we like have we have we won anything yet not really i was

01:30:10.760 gonna say this is like if england said no more muslims can come into england yeah would that be

01:30:18.220 victory no it would be the start could be but it wouldn't be the total victory you'd have to then

01:30:22.980 say and all the ones that did you will either recant confess christ and completely assimilate

01:30:29.840 and even then because there's a question because they did that in spain and even yeah even then

01:30:35.020 there's a big like but really victory would be like and all the ones that did come in you're

01:30:39.240 going back bye go to so like go back to iran silence is not victory the like stopping the

01:30:45.560 the the advance isn't victory you have to push completely back and undo all of this work even

01:30:51.700 from a cultural standpoint anthony eselin talks about this in nostalgia where there's no such

01:30:56.920 thing is a holiday that's not religious. It doesn't exist. It's in the word. Yeah. Even like

01:31:02.400 national holidays, it's not religious in the, in the true sense, but it's mythic. So it's a,

01:31:08.080 it's a adjacently attached to, to religion at the very least. And what pride month is,

01:31:13.260 is a religious holiday. And so if you think about it from that perspective, you're like, well,

01:31:18.100 just because they're quiet about it, have they repented? No. And that's, and so Boniface cut

01:31:23.880 down the tree. They are not allowed to have that high place anymore. Right. And they're going to

01:31:30.600 have it if you just shut up about it. And they also shut up about it. The high place is still

01:31:35.200 there. It's the besetting sin of tolerance. You have to burn it down completely. Absolutely.

01:31:39.900 You can't allow any vestige. It's why Saul is rebuked. And he left, what is this lowing of

01:31:47.560 cattle? It's for incomplete obedience. Yeah. It's incomplete obedience. You cannot do it. You will,

01:31:53.400 it's hatred to your children hatred to your nation so we need to crucify the instinct that

01:31:59.920 leads us to go like are we going over the top here in terms of pursuit of total and utter utter

01:32:07.060 victory i mean we've like managed to black pill elon musk in like three months yeah from his doge

01:32:13.280 stuff where he's like look i'm i'm sick of this you guys are i was gonna go and cut a trillion

01:32:18.620 dollars of spending and you guys just, you won't do it. You're incorrigible. Can't work inside the

01:32:23.620 system that way. Okay. Last question. If, uh, if you guys are up for it here is just how do you

01:32:28.780 effectively engage in political or cultural investigation and critique while also building

01:32:34.120 something meaningful and lasting, especially for someone whose career is not podcasting,

01:32:38.620 YouTube or media creation, any relevant tips or examples? How do you effectively engage in

01:32:45.300 political cultural investigation and critique walls what i'm hearing in the question um maybe

01:32:50.160 you guys don't hear the same thing but what i'm hearing is um that there can often be a gap

01:32:55.240 between the talky talky and buildy buildy where you have a lot of like content creation as a

01:33:04.160 career and that sort of thing can be disconnected from building of actual things and that's bad

01:33:13.680 and and briefly i would agree with that like one of the things that we do in ogden that i think is

01:33:22.320 i wouldn't be interested in doing what we're doing if not for this is that there's no hypothetical

01:33:28.140 like kind of utopic ideal of let's start with just ideas and then hope that eventually something

01:33:36.580 fruits from them. The thing at the center is the people. It's a church and a community. That is

01:33:44.660 the thing. New Christian Impress is a business that exists in a community of people. And the

01:33:50.580 constituent parts of the business are people from that community who talk about things that they do

01:33:55.120 and like we're pastors and we do cultural stuff. And yeah, but it's like, that's the taproot is

01:34:01.600 the community and the people not the other way around i'm actually like wildly skeptical of

01:34:08.820 talking head content creator type people for whom i can't look and be like but what have you done

01:34:17.100 yeah they can't point to an actual body of tangible work what have you done and there's a

01:34:21.220 category for someone who's like really an expert in valuable work that is work of the mind and word

01:34:27.640 that's totally valuable um like tucker carlson he creates he contributes to the creation of

01:34:34.900 reality and culture by talking and it's actually very beneficial and good because the world god

01:34:40.660 didn't make this utilitarian world where unless you can see the thing you're building like a brick

01:34:47.500 wall you're not doing anything words are important um that's why you know god made a world where

01:34:52.540 poetry actually matters music matters art matters media matters culture matters all these things

01:34:56.680 matter but i always want to see the taproot of like real humanity behind it if tucker was like

01:35:04.020 whatever that gay guy recently you remember he's like well known in conservative circles for

01:35:08.900 writing conservative stuff and then scandal breaks out with the release of like a bunch of

01:35:14.740 gay sex tapes this just happened in the media it's been exploding for like two weeks dang i

01:35:19.660 missed that anyway that guy i have no i don't care what he wrote yeah i literally don't care

01:35:24.140 I won't read it. Even if everyone's like, no, this is the best. I'd be like, don't care

01:35:27.180 because he's, his virtue is anti-virtue. I don't care what he says. Yeah. And I think that's the

01:35:35.820 kind of world, like that's the thing that we need to keep in at the center is that, okay, media is

01:35:42.980 illicit and lawful thing, but it, it cannot be contrary to, it has to be the outgrowth of virtue

01:35:50.080 and fruitfulness and manhood and like that actually has to come out of those things yeah yeah so you're

01:35:55.760 saying there's a lot of talking heads out there that imagine if dave ramsey was broke and he has

01:36:00.640 like this podcast on how to be wealthy to live like no other and he's just a financial wreck

01:36:06.220 yeah you know and you're like well why would i trust anything that guy says right but there are

01:36:11.000 lots of people who who propose to be uh cultural builders and you know have very great insights

01:36:18.120 into the world and into business and into community and people and they have no evidence

01:36:23.460 of actually doing that themselves yeah that's that's one thing on the other side i think they

01:36:29.200 were asking too like let's say i'm not in media and whatever how can i that was really engage with

01:36:34.360 the conversation yeah that's kind of how i heard the question what do you think and to them i would

01:36:38.600 provide the comfort of saying like you actually don't have to effectively speak to things that

01:36:43.920 you're not directly involved in. Like you don't have an obligation to be able to, to be well-versed

01:36:50.520 in everything. Right. You, there's like, there's kind of a, if to really simplify it, there's an

01:36:56.420 elite class of thinker that like, uh, or speaker, you know, a Tucker Carlson would be in that class.

01:37:02.460 Um, I think in his area of expertise, Stephen Wolf would be one of those people. He he's like

01:37:07.160 an elite thinker in political philosophy. And then there's the popularizer, which is like all of us,

01:37:13.920 where we popularize things, we actually aren't really experts in anything that we don't put our

01:37:20.620 hands to and tangibly work on. And then there's the people that are like, all they do is tangibly

01:37:28.860 work on things that aren't really that related to the zeitgeist. And to those people, I would say

01:37:36.340 you should actually just focus on doing what the Lord put in front of you to actually do

01:37:41.520 yeah excellently and like read books you know talk to people listen to podcasts and stuff like

01:37:47.320 that but in doing that don't think that you then must be able to speak effectively to every single

01:37:53.520 thing you don't need to start a podcast no to like be a complete completed person yeah to be

01:37:59.380 pushing the plow in in the direction you you don't have to be an expert in every single thing that's

01:38:04.580 just actually not healthy. And it'll end up meaning that you do pretty like shoddy work

01:38:11.380 everywhere else. And so to that, if I'm reading that question right, I would actually tell that

01:38:16.500 guy, like, I would actually not put that much pressure on yourself. Read books that you're

01:38:22.040 interested in. Listen to podcasts that you're interested in. Like, yeah, talk about it with

01:38:25.040 people. Be interested. Totally. But you don't have to be an expert. You don't have an obligation

01:38:30.600 before God to speak effectively to everything. No, it's a dance where it's perfectly fine if

01:38:37.760 you're really interested in a bunch of social and historical and political and theological,

01:38:41.300 if you're really interested in that and you find great joy and satisfaction and like searching out

01:38:46.720 mysteries in that, great, go do that. But don't feel an obligation. Like there's a sense in which

01:38:53.360 everybody feels an obligation on some level to like be a content creator because social media

01:38:58.180 has monetized self content creation. And by that, I mean, Facebook makes money from people being

01:39:04.640 convinced that they have to do that. Yeah. What if you are a content creator and don't want to

01:39:10.180 make content? What about that? For example, the way I think through it is just do your work

01:39:17.420 excellently and you'll stand before Kings. Yeah. It's that simple. Like you can shape the world

01:39:21.260 by being really excellent at what God called you to do. To that, to that guy, I would say you should

01:39:27.080 see these things, like big ideas, zeitgeist ideas, as leisure. Yeah, exactly. Not as work for you.

01:39:35.780 It should be a leisure thing. Your work is your work. God has put you in that lane. That is your

01:39:40.640 vocation. But in your leisure time, yeah, be interested in these things. God has put me in a

01:39:45.820 different lane. He's put, you know, all of us in a different lane. And so we balance it a little

01:39:49.580 bit differently. But just because you listen to people or read people that God has put in that

01:39:55.540 lane of expertise or popularization doesn't mean that you have to then be that. Yeah. Is it Joseph

01:40:00.400 Pieper who has the book on leisure? I think so. That's a good book on the subject of just thinking

01:40:04.700 about the enjoyment of thinking and reading and recreating, like the very human enjoyment of

01:40:14.340 not always working and producing. One of the big pitfalls of our culture today is that we

01:40:20.480 actually have turned everything into a side hustle in a business. And in many ways,

01:40:25.060 we've destroyed people's ability to just enjoy something yeah like within 10 minutes of somebody

01:40:28.940 learning golf they're like maybe i could be a youtube golf content creator like literally i'm

01:40:32.080 like all of us have said that we've all said it and i'm like dan and i'm like guys just play golf

01:40:36.860 and enjoy it oh you woodworking you don't have to sell it i started a woodworking business

01:40:42.820 shouldn't have done that should have just been a leisure activity that i do it like dude but god

01:40:46.480 bless the broken road that led me straight to you so true hey that is a great rascal flats deep cut

01:40:52.660 like if you're into if you're a woman who's into making soap for your family you actually don't

01:40:58.420 have to make that into a business you don't have to you can if you want your husband whatever but

01:41:02.800 like we don't have to side hustle eyes and monetize everything yeah some things can just

01:41:06.940 be i enjoy doing this for me and for my people yeah like literally everything that we do here

01:41:12.460 i was doing already and wanted to do and i like doing it and i would do it even if nobody like

01:41:17.660 even if it didn't happen to also be my job,

01:41:21.100 I would be doing pretty much 90% of the same things.

01:41:25.880 Yeah.

01:41:26.000 You'd still be making music.

01:41:27.220 I like doing it.

01:41:28.180 Even if it's just for your kids.

01:41:29.340 I enjoy it.

01:41:30.280 Ask my wife.

01:41:31.020 I can't stop making music.

01:41:33.260 I can't stop singing butt rock songs to my wife.

01:41:37.760 He can't stop.

01:41:38.700 What rock?

01:41:39.400 Butt rock is like Hinder, Creed.

01:41:41.940 Butt.

01:41:42.240 You know, nickel.

01:41:43.080 Yeah, butt rock. 0.94

01:41:43.400 Like your bottom.

01:41:45.200 Really?

01:41:45.760 Yeah.

01:41:45.920 yeah i've never heard this term really butt rock like well i just heard the news today coming from

01:41:53.960 the lips of an angel you know the side hustle thing is really interesting actually because

01:41:59.020 um you know a few years ago that's how i was thinking through everything is like the potential

01:42:03.740 for a side hustle part of it is because of the desperation for economic opportunity yeah you

01:42:08.960 know to produce extra income and the more i explored some of these opportunities the more

01:42:13.800 I realized that leisure is actually really important. So for example, I like to garden.

01:42:18.180 I like to grow things. I like to have fruit trees, all of that. And you're like, I could,

01:42:22.220 I could actually turn this into a, like a little vegetable stand, fruit stand by the road,

01:42:27.180 sell subscriptions, do something like that. Do some farming. Cause I produce a astronomical

01:42:32.440 amount of food, just the way that God designed plants. You plant a small seed and you get like

01:42:38.320 thousands of tomatoes from it. You know, it's just the way that God made vegetables and fruits

01:42:43.640 and things like that and then i started doing the math after that and i realized this this is not a

01:42:50.520 sustainable side hustle how about i just grow a bunch of food and if i have extra i give people

01:42:56.640 in the church that need it a big box and they go out into my garden and they can pick as much as

01:43:02.560 they want yeah and then they've got lots of vegetables yeah and it helps me yeah you don't

01:43:07.500 have to pick no it's selfish don't don't hear this as being like very charitable everybody wins

01:43:11.460 everybody wins i didn't have to pick it they got it you know it's a it's a win-win yeah that's why

01:43:16.660 i invite people on no but but but having things that are like no i do this because i want to do

01:43:23.200 it yeah and because i enjoy it and i want other people to enjoy it as well you know yeah there

01:43:28.980 you go that's the category now i'm not thinking through that as a side hustle anymore because it

01:43:33.420 just ruins it when you make leisure into work it's no longer leisure it's not i mean because

01:43:38.740 one of my biggest dreams when i was a kid i wanted to be a pro bass fisherman okay okay actually i

01:43:43.720 was gonna make fun of your dream but that's actually attainable didn't we all well so i

01:43:47.500 fished my first tournament when i was a senior in high school i hated it i hated it i was so

01:43:53.400 anxious the whole time because you've got a clock you've got to fish as hard as you can there's no

01:43:58.380 like i'm gonna sit down and eat a sandwich now like i had to catch the next fish and it just

01:44:04.320 completely ruined it for me and i realized that no i do not want to be a pro bass fisherman i

01:44:08.680 would have been a terrible pro bass fisherman anyway you just like fishing i like fishing

01:44:12.860 and it ruined all the good things about fishing yes the things that i didn't realize that i

01:44:17.060 actually enjoyed about it like for example making soap because you just love your family and you

01:44:21.300 want them to have like something that's not full of chemicals and it smells nice and you did it

01:44:26.580 yourself and you made it because you enjoy making it and you could buy it like you could buy it

01:44:31.580 from someone else on Etsy. IndigoSundrySoap.com slash Hanna Cosmos. Yeah. You could do, you could

01:44:37.800 do something like that, but you just decided, you know what? I want to do this because I'm

01:44:41.040 interested in it. Like just be free to be interested in something. That's okay. Love it.

01:44:45.700 Love it. Well, guys, great conversation. Um, wow. You're both so handsome. It was so much fun.

01:44:52.480 Um, I just want to say thanks for being here. Thank y'all for having me. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks

01:44:58.880 eric for leaving and going to california for a few weeks to you know let let ben sit in here that

01:45:04.120 was uh it was a good time and um we hope that you guys all had a great time at the new christian

01:45:09.780 press conference we do have tickets out and available right now for next year so um one of

01:45:17.080 the things that we did this year that we added for the first time is a family pass to just make it a

01:45:22.320 cheaper and be more simple if you want to come as a family so the family pass works that you can

01:45:27.460 literally buy one ticket and you and your children can come yeah that's it that's the whole thing

01:45:32.400 uh you don't have to buy like two adult tickets which age categories of kids are this ticket or

01:45:37.460 that ticket um it lowers the cost for like 98 percent of families that come significantly to

01:45:44.720 just come show up so the big thing with that um as soon as you think you're going to come pick up

01:45:50.200 your tickets it helps us plan and know what venue we need to be in if we have another 500 people

01:45:54.860 next year changes the venue we need to be in um so earlier you sign up the better to help us plan

01:46:01.220 and also we have big price breaks early as well because of that to help us get ahead on things

01:46:08.180 and uh just get all of our logistics in place so but we we loved hanging out with all of you guys

01:46:13.160 i think it hasn't happened yet i'm assuming we did um unless we didn't we loved hanging out with

01:46:19.360 each other that's oh are you talking yeah that's what i we love that i do love that i do it every

01:46:25.360 day for a reason yes i mean it was tolerable i guess all right i guess i don't speak for everyone

01:46:30.780 but thanks for listening guys we'll catch you next time in the king's hall

01:46:36.040 great news here at the new christened press warehouse lexi sove's book my beautiful wife

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01:46:53.240 to you. And what that means is

01:46:55.280 that if you order this book, it's going to be in the

01:46:57.220 mail and to you within, like, a

01:46:59.220 week or so. Pick up a copy today

01:47:01.240 at newchristinimpressed.com

01:47:02.740 slash wisdom.

01:47:11.480 We're killing it right now.

01:47:14.860 We're going to keep on dancing.

01:47:16.820 Well, in case you didn't know, we have another

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01:47:39.220 and get some extra content

The King's Hall - July 18, 2025

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