The King's Hall - Covenant Succession： Children & Worship (Part I)

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00:00:37.280 Where do children fit into the Missio Dei?

00:00:40.120 After all, this project of building Christendom is generational work.

00:00:44.960 The work we do in our lifetimes may only be the act of clearing the rubble off the building site.

00:00:50.200 If this mission is to be passed on, how should we approach our children?

00:00:54.440 We could assume that our children will catch the vision through observation.

00:00:58.460 We could hope that our children would walk in our footsteps because of the nobleness of the task.

00:01:04.020 But we will not approach our children like this.

00:01:07.080 Instead, we will diligently teach them and win their hearts to the mission of God.

00:01:12.220 We will win their hearts like Philip won the heart of his son, Alexander.

00:01:16.740 When Alexander the Great was just a youth,

00:01:19.300 some horse merchants brought a horse to his father Philip, offering to sell him for 13 talents.

00:01:25.580 But when they went into the field to try him, they found him so vicious and unmanageable

00:01:30.400 that he reared up when they attempted to mount him. The horse would not endure the voice of

00:01:35.680 any of Philip's horsemen. It was at this time when they were leading the horse away as a wild

00:01:41.200 and useless beast that Alexander shouted, what an excellent horse do they lose for want of address

00:01:48.400 and boldness to manage him. His father Philip ignored the youth at first, but when Alexander

00:01:54.700 persisted repeating himself loudly, Philip looked at the boy and found that he was angered to see

00:02:00.640 the horse sent away. The father said to his boy, do you reproach those who are older than yourself

00:02:07.080 as if you could manage this horse any better than they? Straight-spined Alexander replied,

00:02:13.560 I could manage this horse better than the others do. What will you forfeit in your rashness if

00:02:20.140 you cannot manage him better, replied his father. He answered, I will pay the whole price of the

00:02:25.600 horse. At this the whole company fell laughing at the youth, and as soon as the wager was settled

00:02:31.940 among them, Alexander immediately ran to the horse, and taking hold of the bridle, turned him

00:02:37.500 directly into the son, having, it seems, observed that he was disturbed at and afraid of the

00:02:43.520 motion of his own shadow. Then letting him go forward a little, still keeping the reins in his

00:02:48.560 hands and stroking him gently, when he found him begin to grow eager and fiery, he let fall his

00:02:54.440 upper garment softly and with one noble leap securely mounted him. And when he was seated

00:02:59.880 on the horse's back, little by little, drew in the bridle and curbed him without either striking or

00:03:05.680 spurring him. Alexander not only found the fine horse free from all rebelliousness, but it was

00:03:11.520 in fact anxious to run. Alexander let the horse run to its full speed, then inciting him further

00:03:17.640 with commanding voice and with his heels. Philip and his friends looked on in fast silence and

00:03:24.140 anxiety for the result, till seeing him turn at the end of his run. Alexander came back triumphant

00:03:30.600 with rejoicing cheers of his father for the mighty deed his son had done. His father, shedding tears

00:03:36.820 of joy kissed his son, and as he came down from his horse said, O my son, look thee out for a

00:03:43.520 kingdom equal to and worthy of thyself, for Macedonia is too little for thee. Philip won

00:03:51.540 the heart of his son, and Alexander took his vision and conquered the world. The King's Hall

00:03:58.040 podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world. In the next few episodes,

00:04:06.680 we will be talking along the lines of this subject, covenant succession.

00:04:11.860 Covenant succession.

00:04:12.700 Woo! Yeah, get excited. Covenant succession.

00:04:15.340 That's right.

00:04:15.800 And everybody is like, what does that mean?

00:04:18.160 What is covenant succession?

00:04:19.600 What in the world is covenant succession? 0.99

00:04:22.020 Go baptize your kids if you have children.

00:04:24.840 By the way, Dan, phenomenal story.

00:04:27.360 yeah that is a good i didn't write it though plutarch did yeah by the way he's lover of

00:04:32.180 horses oh did not know that i didn't know that pretty sure now that you say it you're like

00:04:38.240 so confident and then yeah and then not not confident so i really wanted to uh include

00:04:44.060 part of alexander the great speech uh towards the end of his conquest of the entire world

00:04:49.820 he's trying to send some of the the aged and crippled warriors home and they start to revolt

00:04:55.240 against him and what he does he begins his speech by saying what his father had done for them how 0.99

00:05:02.440 his father had found them and they were wearing they were wearing animal skins and they were in

00:05:07.700 the mountains and he brought them to the plains and he gave them good laws and enough food to eat

00:05:13.060 and anyway it was really really it's a if you you should look it up it's called the greatest speech

00:05:18.520 of all time and it's by alexander the great there's a really cool rendering of it on youtube

00:05:23.980 but it essentially tracks the lineage from Philip to Alexander and what,

00:05:29.100 what they accomplished. Yeah.

00:05:30.900 It's like this idea of like continuing his father's vision and it is a really

00:05:35.740 good speech. Amazing. Yeah. By the way, it does mean horse loving.

00:05:39.340 Horse loving. What did you say? Lover of horses. Yeah. Same, same thing.

00:05:43.840 Horse loving or fond of horses or lover of horses. So there you go.

00:05:48.580 Good old Philip. Good old Philip, the horse lover, the horse lover and Alexander.

00:05:52.960 But I think part of it, right, Dan, is the connection that we see between winning the hearts of our sons and how that inspires mission.

00:06:01.200 Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:02.000 So I know in the opening I had said something about, like, we hope through, like, observation, you know, your kids will pick stuff up.

00:06:09.360 But really, it's not even, like, about just passing down a law or discipline or good morals.

00:06:18.000 Things like that are important.

00:06:19.080 But even in the Proverbs, Solomon says, son, give me your heart.

00:06:24.300 My son, give me your heart. Proverbs 23, 26.

00:06:26.800 Yeah, because if you can win the hearts of your children, and I pray for this almost every night, that God give me the hearts of my sons.

00:06:36.880 And when we're talking about covenant succession, that's what we're talking about.

00:06:40.800 Not just, you know, you think about all the places where you want to see succession with your children.

00:06:46.200 You want them to go on in the next generation and have children of their own.

00:06:50.960 You know, you want them to go on and have a job that they work and they're provided for in a marriage.

00:06:55.620 And you want all those things for them.

00:06:57.100 But the most important thing that we want to see, and it's the thing that God has appointed to happen,

00:07:04.340 One of the mechanisms by which God has actually intended for the covenant to succeed, for it to continue from generation to generation, is through the faithful parenting of fathers and mothers, particularly fathers raising their children in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

00:07:23.400 So when we say covenant succession, that's what we're talking about. 0.94

00:07:27.480 We're talking about our children continuing the Christian legacy in everything they do, being Christians and continuing to take down that legacy of faith into every corner of their life so that we know there's going to be Christians in 500 years.

00:07:45.420 And I intend for that, my family, to be part of those Christians. 0.88

00:07:49.100 Yeah, and I think just recently reading through Genesis, this is kind of the pattern laid out in Scripture, promises made to Abraham.

00:07:56.040 And then by the time that you see the fulfillment in Moses, some 430 years have passed.

00:08:02.000 And so one of the really cool things it's helped me focus on is, okay, if we believe in covenant succession, we will not be able to complete our mission in our lifetime alone.

00:08:11.200 So we want to call our sons to continue that work and that mission, which is Christendom, but it's unique to each one of us.

00:08:19.480 And so we're joining side by side with our sons and saying, as Dan said, give us your heart.

00:08:25.380 join in this work. And we realize it's a tougher task then because

00:08:29.240 we have to compel them, not just by force, but you have to win their heart and say,

00:08:35.600 this is a worthy glory to pursue. Yeah. We want to train them to love what is lovely

00:08:41.480 and to hate what is detestable. We want to train their affections. We want to train them so they're

00:08:46.140 not like 1 Samuel 2 with Eli's sons who were worthless sons and went on to end his line and

00:08:51.520 his legacy. God cut them off. How much success would you have? How much personal success could

00:08:57.520 outweigh your children being worthless men? None. None. We want to see our children continue in the 0.98

00:09:02.440 covenant. Yeah. I know one of the discussions that we may have had on this episode, but I've

00:09:06.580 definitely talked to other places, is when we're talking about the intentionally barren

00:09:11.060 couple. They're like, well, you don't have to have kids. And so they're choosing to never have

00:09:16.980 children their entire life. And in one instance, I was counseling a couple that was talking like

00:09:24.900 this. And I said, if you look at the scriptures, one of the worst curses that God will curse people

00:09:29.480 with is to end their line. Yep. Cut off their line. They're cut off. The earth will swallow

00:09:35.140 up Achan and his family so that that line is done. Haman. Yep. Same thing. Same thing. And so what 1.00

00:09:42.020 we're talking about in these episodes, really, in this covenant succession theme, is how does

00:09:48.060 the church, what means has God appointed, really, to see that covenant succession continue? And we

00:09:53.460 mean on a practical, obviously, God's eternal decree. I know some of you guys who are like

00:09:58.000 theology leaders are like, God's eternal decree is what ensures covenant succession. Well, we know,

00:10:03.360 we know. But guess what, guys? God has also appointed normal, regular means by which he

00:10:09.760 intends to see the covenant succession occur. Things like having children and raising them.

00:10:16.080 So we're going to be talking about what the church, worship, education, vocation,

00:10:21.600 these kinds of means by which God has intended to see this covenant succession take place.

00:10:28.740 For the project of this season to be successful, the project of seeing a new Christendom built,

00:10:33.940 there will need to be thousands and thousands of Christian men and women who are equipped to stand

00:10:38.260 for the truth of scripture against the errors of both the liberal church and the pagan culture.

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00:11:35.340 Well, and I want to ask a question too. When you guys look out of the culture today, particularly even the culture of the church, do we see robust visions of legacy? Like, is that what the Christian church is telling their people to aim at? And if not, what do you see?

00:11:51.520 I think one thing I think just right off the bat with you see is that when when that we do talk

00:11:57.100 about legacy often it's truncated like when we talk about legacy yeah it's just faith doctrine

00:12:03.480 catechism which we're gonna we're gonna talk about like massively important but what about

00:12:08.260 a vision for Christian living that would encompass every part of what it means to be human yeah like

00:12:14.040 what about that what about raising our children the total enculturation of the Lord which is why

00:12:18.760 we included things even like business vocational training on this list when we're talking about

00:12:23.800 covenant succession. So no, I don't think, I think anywhere you do see it, I think it's often

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00:13:09.380 Yeah, I guess one of the things, tell me if you agree or disagree, but when I look out at Boomer 0.95

00:13:15.000 world one of the things that they just drilled into the culture was my wealth my possessions for 0.95

00:13:22.060 me me only you're on your own yeah enough to coast to my last day and i spend my last dollar

00:13:28.300 on my last day can't take it with you can't take it with you spending my kids inheritance

00:13:33.380 i've even heard the older boomer generation say things like i earned this you go get your own

00:13:39.660 I think as we'll unpack

00:13:42.160 it's like a selfish child

00:13:43.300 this is mine

00:13:44.340 it's like a dragon 0.99

00:13:45.880 oh man did you just call the boomers dragons 1.00

00:13:49.600 I think you just did 1.00

00:13:50.540 only foolish boomers 0.99

00:13:53.140 there's a lot of wise boomers too 1.00

00:13:54.900 yeah I mean there's absolutely

00:13:56.300 zero teaching on inheritance

00:14:00.460 scripture teaches that

00:14:02.000 you are to leave an inheritance to your children

00:14:04.140 to your children's children 0.93

00:14:05.500 that's a responsibility

00:14:07.520 My grandkids should be the one most directly benefiting

00:14:11.420 because I've raised my children

00:14:12.780 so that they are actually thinking about their children's children.

00:14:15.980 So it's this, you're seeing three generations at a time

00:14:19.660 interlocking to work together for covenant succession,

00:14:23.060 for the community to continue to be built,

00:14:25.300 for the church to have a witness on earth

00:14:28.020 in a community that has a foothold

00:14:29.940 that's transmitting the culture of Christ

00:14:32.600 across the whole sector of what it means to be a human being.

00:14:36.620 So it's like you can have thin, like, oh, yeah, we're going to, you know,

00:14:41.460 our kids are going to know their Sunday school lessons.

00:14:44.060 Yes, but more.

00:14:46.880 Yeah, so one of the foundational passages that will be undergirding this entire few episodes that we do

00:14:52.920 on how do children relate to the church, to education, and to vocation and covenant succession.

00:15:00.980 One of the foundational scriptures is in Deuteronomy 7, and this is Deuteronomy 7, 9 through 11.

00:15:08.300 It says,

00:15:30.980 And that, again, was in Deuteronomy.

00:15:36.280 And so this is one of the foundational passages that we look at when we're looking at covenant succession is the seriousness and the gravity of the blessings and curses that come with this covenant with God.

00:15:50.500 And so obviously we could get into Presbyterian covenant theology, Baptist covenant theology, all those things, but we're not going to probably get into that much.

00:15:58.840 We're not. No.

00:15:59.560 And so this isn't the podcast for that.

00:16:02.420 No, this isn't like the let's debate intramural covenant theology concepts or that kind of thing.

00:16:06.720 So what we're going to choose to do is read that and go, yes, that is still true.

00:16:10.880 That was true then, and it is true in some ways to now.

00:16:13.440 I like that.

00:16:14.200 I think yes to that.

00:16:15.480 Okay, yes to that.

00:16:16.520 Yeah, and I would say for guys, if you're looking for resources, standing on the promises, Doug Wilson,

00:16:21.000 how should you think in general about how do the promises apply?

00:16:25.660 How should you as a parent believe them for your children, pursue them, and then work according to them?

00:16:30.660 I think you guys would agree that's a good—

00:16:33.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:33.840 And Deuteronomy 7, obviously, is preceded by Deuteronomy 6, which is the Shema Israel, which is to love God with all your heart, and then to teach your children diligently all along the way.

00:16:46.660 And whether you're a Reformed Baptist or a Presbyterian in your covenant theology, obviously we'd want you to have a covenant theology and not like a random megachurch sort of non-denominational just, I don't really know what's happening here.

00:17:00.800 We'd want you to have a covenant theology undergirding your thinking on these things.

00:17:03.980 But whether you're a Reformed Baptist, particular Baptist, or Presbyterian in how you thread the needle on the covenant theology here, we should all agree that what does God say that you are to do with your children?

00:17:15.540 well you are to raise and discipline them as christians christianly and whether as a particular

00:17:22.080 baptist you say like well the category is this or the precipice where they their actual status that

00:17:27.140 god would say we all agree it's like discipline your children pray for your children teach them

00:17:32.560 to obey christ you know yeah raise your children raise them here at admonition of the lord no no

00:17:37.660 particular baptist is is actually like going around saying like um you know what i'm basically

00:17:43.840 going to just act like they're, I have no obligation that's different to these children

00:17:49.160 than the neighbors next door. Like, obviously they would say, we have an obligation in the way we

00:17:55.020 teach them to relate to worship and education and vocation and marriage and all of life

00:17:58.960 to train them and disciple them Christianly. And I've tried to speak really precisely there so

00:18:05.440 that everybody could agree with it. I'm sure someone will be mad and send us an email, but

00:18:08.860 there you go. Sure. And one of the, I mean, I could have drawn from other passages that,

00:18:13.720 you know, like Ephesians 6 says, you know, raise your children in the paideia,

00:18:17.840 new thesia of the Lord. I mean, there's lots of instructions for fathers to sons. The reason I

00:18:21.920 bring up that text is because specifically it calls out blessings to a thousand generations.

00:18:27.300 So you have generational benefits and blessings, and you also have generational curses that are

00:18:34.380 associated with that. And so as we talk about covenant succession, one of the things that

00:18:38.700 we're talking about is blessing our generations, those who come after us, who won't even know our

00:18:45.420 name, that we will be blessing because of the work that we do now. Not that you're saved by

00:18:50.380 your works. I mean, I don't feel like I have to asterisk everything. But it's a good point,

00:18:55.140 Dan, because some people actually today, and I think this is actually astonishing,

00:18:58.520 Someone on Twitter recently actually accused Toby Sumter of being prosperity, the new prosperity theology, basically because he said that obedience is related to God's blessing.

00:19:10.780 and and i saw all sorts of people retweeting like yeah these the the theonomic post mills all these

00:19:16.660 guys they're just the new prosperity theology and the the claim was basically like um actually god

00:19:22.360 says over and over and over and over again in the old and new testament that blessing follows

00:19:28.880 obedience like guess in a real way guess what children obey your parents in the lord for this

00:19:33.500 is the first command that comes with a promise that you live long in the land what paul meant

00:19:38.380 that is like imaginary? Well, it's in the new covenant or in the new earth. Uh, they'll live

00:19:42.980 long in the new earth. It's a spiritualized thing. It just drives me nuts when Jesus says,

00:19:46.880 Hey, with the measure you use, it'll be measured back to you. So give, and it'll be given back to

00:19:50.540 you, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your bosom with me. Yeah. No,

00:19:54.300 all like, well, so nobody has a problem when you're like, yeah, the wages of sin is death.

00:19:58.840 So the curses of the covenant, you know, sinning, you will actually reap consequences in this life

00:20:05.160 and the next. But as soon as you say, well, obedience will actually bring you blessings,

00:20:09.340 they're like, no, it won't. You'll actually suffer for that too.

00:20:12.560 Here's another great example from this topic. When the proverb says, parents, raise your

00:20:17.400 children in the fear of the Lord so that when they're old, they won't depart from it the way

00:20:21.920 they should go. I butchered the passage. You know what I'm talking about. By the time they're done

00:20:25.980 giving asterisks, they're like, well, this is a proverb, not a promise, and blah, blah, blah,

00:20:30.400 blah blah and so by the time they're done with it they they try to make the passage mean raise

00:20:35.800 your child or teach your child the way that he should go and when he's old who knows flip a coin

00:20:40.940 and see here's the deal modern evangelicals don't like the plain promise in that verse 0.95

00:20:45.320 because they lost their kids exactly and they lost their kids because they did retarded things 0.88

00:20:50.560 with their kids like send them to public schools and like not catechize them and not include them 0.92

00:20:55.580 in worship and try to flannel graph them for 30 minutes a week and think that they're doing

00:20:59.180 it's like go baptize your kids if you have children and then blame it on god and then say

00:21:04.020 oh it's just god's election and this is the thing you guys like obviously i get a little fired up

00:21:08.900 about this because i think that this is the area where under the cloak of accusations of legalism

00:21:14.800 the church has self-castrated they've origined themselves so anyway moving on before i start

00:21:23.420 origin castrated origin castrate that was the yeah the origin the heretic he was the origin

00:21:29.000 renewal yeah i mean some people it is a it is a weighty thing though brian that was because we're

00:21:34.840 told in matthew's gospel that you know the angels of the little ones stand before our father yeah

00:21:40.500 and intercede for them yep and then you think about what's said about those who

00:21:45.820 damage especially eternally damaged children yeah let the yeah better to have a millstone

00:21:51.620 just go ahead and millstone tie a tie a fiat to yourself and drive it off a cliff into the water

00:21:57.120 and follow it down to the bottom of the lake and everybody's like yeah we need to type millstones

00:22:00.940 around pedophiles and but okay what about the people who sent their kids to be educated by

00:22:08.060 pagans to love pagan things and to be eternally destroyed yeah what about that yeah what about

00:22:12.980 that we have five theses that we're going to go through that i'll talk about this this is great

00:22:17.900 So, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to present the theses and most likely the first question I'm going to ask is, do you agree with this and why?

00:22:26.180 Yeah.

00:22:26.720 And so, uh, follow along, uh, theses number one, children are one of the most important members of the body of Christ.

00:22:36.200 And I know the guys, they both read it and they're like, did you write children are the most important members of the body of Christ?

00:22:44.020 and i said no no one of the which is to say they're equal with the other members and it's

00:22:50.520 important to say that because they have to get downgraded that's yes that's why it's that's why

00:22:54.980 i worded it in that way to me do you think that's true was obviously true and the reason it's

00:23:00.340 important to say even though it's obviously true is because so often children get downgraded

00:23:05.300 to like sort of an afterthought they get sent to a different church yeah they just sent them out

00:23:10.380 They are actually hindering us from doing what we need to in the corporate worship because they're loud and they're noisy.

00:23:16.680 And so ushers come down the aisle and shush the family and say, hey, didn't you know we had kids ministry?

00:23:23.020 Your kid is rustling around.

00:23:25.600 So often, I mean, think about this.

00:23:28.040 Jesus had to rebuke the disciples.

00:23:31.280 He had to rebuke them. 1.00

00:23:32.520 He had to say, let the little children come. 0.93

00:23:35.820 This is Luke 18, 15, and 16.

00:23:37.560 Now they were bringing even infants to him, to Jesus, that he might touch them.

00:23:41.000 And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

00:23:43.380 But Jesus called them to him saying, let the little children come to me.

00:23:47.340 Do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God, even infants.

00:23:52.580 So here's the thing.

00:23:54.140 We have to say it because this is an old problem that persists today.

00:23:57.860 It's to treat children as if they are a nuisance and an inconvenience, not full members, that

00:24:02.260 they have lesser value, that blah, blah, blah, come back to me when you're 18 and married. 1.00

00:24:06.440 Absolutely stupid. And so, yeah, we have to say, of course, children are one of the most important 1.00

00:24:11.800 members of the body of Christ. Jesus literally said so. Yeah. So we'll get into like, how does

00:24:17.700 the modern church treat children? But one of the ways is that they view people through the lens

00:24:25.080 of a pragmatist as in like, what do they do? You know, what do people do? Here's your spiritual

00:24:31.040 gifts test so that what, what can you do for us? You know, here's your calling, you know,

00:24:36.120 you're going to serve in kids ministry for the rest of your life, you know, and it's drudgery

00:24:40.500 and it's, it is actually horrible. Uh, anyway, but, but even if you were a pragmatist, what do

00:24:45.800 children do? Yeah. Even if you're a pragmatist, I was talking to a buddy about that actually this

00:24:49.800 morning, he's had his first kid and, uh, I was telling him, I said, yeah, right now as a newborn,

00:24:55.660 you're doing all the caretaking right you're doing 99.9 of all the work for this child yeah

00:25:03.540 but i said what people fail to see in the pragmatism department even is okay now my son's 15

00:25:08.860 when when i need heavy things lifted i'm like hey can you go get that benjamin yeah hey can you go

00:25:14.500 get that hey run down there and do this like they're so useful yes and they're going to be

00:25:18.560 the ones that we pass our legacy on to so even even a pragmatist would have to see if you have

00:25:22.840 a long-term view, that they're wealth generators, not just...

00:25:25.840 But that's the problem.

00:25:26.960 People don't have a long-term view.

00:25:29.560 Expediency is the virtue.

00:25:31.540 It's an annoyance.

00:25:32.120 What can you do for me now?

00:25:34.080 Well, we even had on our church Google review.

00:25:37.640 Oh, yeah.

00:25:38.000 There was a recent one, one star.

00:25:39.780 Because the kids are annoying.

00:25:41.400 Noisy.

00:25:42.440 And I'm like, thank you for self-removing.

00:25:46.660 Because if you're not going to repent of that egregious sin, I don't want you in my congregation.

00:25:51.720 Right.

00:25:52.000 I'm serious. Because that is poison. That attitude is absolutely poison. It's the antithesis of the

00:25:58.700 gospel, where we don't actually immediately think of people in terms of what they can do for us,

00:26:03.620 even though it's true on the long horizon. People are resources, not resource suckers. But you go,

00:26:10.280 we should look at children, even when they're really costly, and we should go, how can I pour

00:26:16.220 myself out for your sake? How can I say my life for yours to these children? Because the Lord

00:26:22.240 Jesus Christ says to them belongs the kingdom of God. Yeah. The review, by the way, from Don,

00:26:28.720 it's a two-star review. So he gave us one star. Two stars actually worse? Extra. Well, yeah,

00:26:33.320 because it adds credibility. The algorithm weighs two and three star reviews much more heavily than

00:26:38.380 one and five star reviews. Interesting. So Don said too many distractions with the babies and

00:26:43.400 the little kids in the service not my kind of place and i was like it's not thank you for by

00:26:48.900 the way did you see we got a new review just a couple days ago yeah it wasn't at one star from

00:26:52.540 mary yeah it was one star she's appalled by you and that you're a leader of a church when she says

00:26:58.700 you is there a chinese man named you no no i am absolutely appalled that brian selvey is a leader 0.92

00:27:04.100 of a church question there was no yeah did she spell my last name right yeah this is a troll

00:27:10.480 good for her troll yep it's just someone on twitter who didn't like that i said my children 0.91

00:27:14.040 were holy said you're narrow-minded and misogynistic okay i feel like we're off topic 0.96

00:27:18.920 now but you know what here's the thing i am narrow-minded so she's clearly narrow-minded too

00:27:24.500 and uh if she didn't think i was misogynistic based on the expressed worldview of that review

00:27:30.120 i'd be concerned she did say there is some trauma in your life that has caused this vile behavior

00:27:35.640 they always do psychology they're always like clearly trauma has been hurt there's yeah

00:27:41.880 did your father love you i don't think so okay so we would agree that children are one of the

00:27:48.020 most important members of the body of christ it is not by accident by the way that i put that

00:27:55.560 they're members yeah so theses number two i'm just going to skip over that they're members or

00:28:02.360 do you want to talk about that uh i will talk about it if you want to yeah i want to talk about

00:28:08.320 it i want to talk about it so children i'm i'm positing that children are members of the body

00:28:15.040 of christ full members two-thirds three-fourths oh yeah that's a good question well we're not

00:28:21.580 congregational so they don't get a vote yeah they don't get a vote anyway yeah yeah that's right so

00:28:27.460 it really gets into your view of covenant obviously we're presbyterian go baptize your

00:28:32.680 kids if you have children um it's interesting too though dan because i would say even our

00:28:36.780 myths like uh we have baptists here but they're generally baptizing their kids pretty young

00:28:42.500 yeah so i mean we had a couple baptisms this weekend yeah and i think even our even our

00:28:48.720 baptists at our church would still agree to a you know a like a fatherly covenant headship

00:28:56.400 you know over their family we disagree on time and mode of baptism but they still fundamentally

00:29:01.940 mostly have a covenantal view yeah and they treat their kids like they're christians yeah

00:29:06.340 yep okay expected to obey all that good stuff yeah we'll move on because we could get in trouble

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00:30:18.840 race, church, and society.

00:30:25.560 Okay.

00:30:26.620 Number two, theses number two.

00:30:29.380 Children are and should be valued by Christian culture more than any other

00:30:34.420 culture. 1.00

00:30:36.160 They should be versus.

00:30:37.540 So the way I'm saying this, because I realized I could be confusing.

00:30:40.340 Yeah.

00:30:41.000 Is that a Christian culture should place more value on children that you'll 0.92

00:30:45.160 find that they place more value on children than other cultures.

00:30:47.960 pagan cultures will place value on children interesting yeah i think i think i would say

00:30:54.340 right off the top of my head that's true can you think of any examples yeah so so recently there 0.96

00:30:58.540 was a new mass grave found i believe it was in peru i should look it up i have a computer in

00:31:04.960 front of me it was in south america it was the largest known one time child sacrifice to occur

00:31:13.300 i believe it was 125 children that they found in a mass grave do you have it do you have it pulled

00:31:19.100 up uh stuff i'm finding is from 2019 world's largest child sacrifice burial site in peru

00:31:28.100 and they found 227 boys and girls holy ages 4 to 14 yep there you go so it wasn't just like

00:31:39.220 you know we had the aztec story that we did a little while ago and it wasn't just slaves

00:31:45.160 you know that or enemies that they had captured in battle they were sacrificing their own children

00:31:50.980 their own kids and so you know it's easy to look at peru in i believe it was like the 17th century

00:31:57.740 15th century i can't remember when when they estimated this happen but in the 20th century

00:32:04.480 And in the 21st century, I don't know what the worldwide statistics are on abortion or child sacrifice, but in the U.S. it's somewhere around 70 million children.

00:32:16.020 Since 1960s, yeah.

00:32:18.660 Yeah.

00:32:19.520 And so one of the reasons that that is is because the enemy hates God and they hate image bearers of God.

00:32:30.320 And I mean, I would probably be going out on a limb here to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway, that I think one of the reasons that people hate children, other than that they bear the image of God, because that is true, but is that there's also a form of innocence to them and a righteousness.

00:32:51.420 not that they're righteous in themselves but a child that has not been tainted by their own

00:32:59.580 habitual sins and things like that innately seem to have a stronger moral sense of right and wrong

00:33:06.380 at a young age there's also seems to be some innocence to children that is also despicable

00:33:11.900 because the the the wicked hate the righteous right because the light exposes darkness so you

00:33:17.440 think about like you're not saying that there's no stain of original sin no no none of that

00:33:21.260 But there's something true there that you see.

00:33:24.900 Why is it that the demons will always seek to corrupt the children?

00:33:30.020 And it's because, number one, they hate the image of God.

00:33:32.860 They hate all people. 1.00

00:33:33.840 But why is it that Disney and these companies are like, how can we make as many tranny? 1.00

00:33:40.300 How can we make cuties? 1.00

00:33:41.760 And how can we make all these like getting the little kids to dance naked for the adults?

00:33:46.160 And it is because they want to sear their consciences.

00:33:48.540 They hate relative innocency because there's relative innocency, obviously. 0.96

00:33:55.160 I mean, it's stupid to deny that, that a five-year-old is relatively, has piled up less sin than like a 50-year-old degenerate porn addict who, you know, is obviously that five-year-old is relative. 0.97

00:34:07.840 They've piled up less conscience searing. 0.98

00:34:11.480 You know, sin warps you.

00:34:13.580 Yeah, just the degrees of their ability to sin is limited.

00:34:16.640 Luther, I think, he called mankind in sin homo incurvitus in si, which means the man curved in or the self curved in on the self.

00:34:28.400 And the more you sin, the more you curve in inwardly and the more bent you are.

00:34:33.480 That's why even in the Ransom Trilogy by C.S. Lewis, the evil ones are called the bent ones, the Eldial who are bent. 0.95

00:34:40.920 This is a really nerdy reference, but yeah.

00:34:42.840 I'm actually reading it right now.

00:34:44.100 Demonic, satanic figures are the bent ones because they're curved away from truth.

00:34:50.320 They're crooked.

00:34:51.820 And yeah, so I mean, I think there's something there for sure. 1.00

00:34:54.600 Yeah, so the other reason I think that children should be valued more and are valued more in Christian culture

00:35:00.660 is because of the view that we talked about in the previous theses that they are, in fact, citizens of the kingdom.

00:35:08.460 That there's also an emphasis on life amongst Christians.

00:35:13.480 You see this with Constantine, who ended the, or I'd have to look at my notes again, attempted to end the practice of exposing weak or crippled babies. 0.85

00:35:29.640 Yeah. 0.93

00:35:30.980 Exposing them, essentially leaving them out to the elements until they die. 0.79

00:35:34.760 Horrible.

00:35:35.440 Which was a common practice for many, many hundreds of years in Rome.

00:35:39.860 They didn't have plan B. They couldn't do it when they were small, so they had to wait till they're born.

00:35:44.740 Yeah, so one of the relevant passages to this point is from Psalm 127, 4 and 5, which brings up another question that I'll ask at the end.

00:35:52.760 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth.

00:35:56.940 Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them.

00:35:59.640 He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

00:36:04.180 I mean, there's so much in that, just those two verses that we could talk about that for an hour.

00:36:08.560 but that the the first thing is that they are they are weapons they're they're missiles which

00:36:15.540 i think we'll talk about in a little bit but they're a blessing is is one of the other things

00:36:20.400 that i i want to mention the this is the view of christians to children is that they're actually a

00:36:25.640 blessing and not a resource sucker yeah they're not an inconvenience it's interesting too i was

00:36:30.100 just reading about alfred the great in england and so like they're trying to fight back the danes

00:36:35.100 And one of the problems they had was having enough population to actually be able to fight the Danes.

00:36:42.180 And so for them, they were like, well, you know, they're encouraging their people like, please, for the love of God, literally for the love of God, make babies.

00:36:50.020 So and they're having to, you know, work through provisions and, you know, the best they can health care, scare quotes there.

00:36:56.040 Right. But yeah. So in that context, if you want to conquer, take dominion, the first thing you realize is we need children to do that.

00:37:03.920 And so this goes back to Genesis 1 as well.

00:37:06.900 If you believe God about what he says about children, you will be fruitful because you see that they're necessary for this work of fulfilling your mission, taking dominion.

00:37:14.860 Yeah, you're actually also just noticing something about the natural design of humanity that apparently was God's idea, is that barring the corruption of sin, and I mean that in the way that sin has created infertility and things like that, a fallen world where there's cursed thistles, thorns.

00:37:33.280 disease, infertility. Apart from that, or intentional intervention, where you're trying

00:37:41.100 to do something to prevent this from happening, the normal thing that God designed for a man and

00:37:46.140 a woman to come together sexually in this covenant of marriage will be fruitful. It will

00:37:52.120 result in children, and it will result in children for two decades or for 15 years or so in a

00:37:58.360 marriage. It will result just naturally, if there's no infertility, you get married at a

00:38:02.640 fairly normal age let's say you're early to mid 20s you get married you you have that's not normal

00:38:08.340 for most of the u.s i get married it would be like 19 and 20 early to mid 30s would be more normal

00:38:13.160 so you'd have like 15 years of child yeah you'd have about 15 years even if you have a one over

00:38:18.000 two year like a fairly moderate pace seven the normal family would produce between six and ten

00:38:24.340 children and with you know there's infant mortality there's all kinds of things but just

00:38:28.860 think about that for a second. God is not dumb. God didn't design the menopause time and the 0.61

00:38:36.640 fertility window. He could have made it five years. He could have made it 10 years. He could 0.60

00:38:41.320 have made it eight years. Instead, he made it 15 or 20 years. And you just look at that and you go,

00:38:46.580 huh, it seems like God intended for something to happen and that something to be fruitfulness.

00:38:53.500 And then he goes, and when he talks about it, when God's like, now I'm going to explain this to you,

00:38:57.480 He's like, and that, by the way, is a blessing. I've given you a gift in that. You're welcome.

00:39:03.860 And so often people in their sinfulness, non-Christian cultures do this, increasingly 1.00

00:39:09.280 weak and effeminate Christian culture and sinful Christian culture has agreed with this 0.99

00:39:15.760 and basically treated children as an accessory that you accessorize your marriage with for 1.00

00:39:22.500 your convenience that is so stupid it's actually like a gregory shane shane gregory morris 0.99

00:39:33.200 shane morris from the upstream or the colt i can't remember colton center colson center for 0.99

00:39:38.400 culture whatever i can't remember sorry shane gregory shane morris there you go sorry gregory

00:39:42.320 shane morris which is sounds like an author name he tweeted that tweet about how like hey these 40

00:39:47.760 year old and getting into the 40 plus year old millennial kind of generation, they're being very

00:39:52.860 cavalier about having no children. What are you going to do when, like, is your dog going to visit

00:39:56.680 you in the nursing home? And it got like totally ratioed, kind of. I mean, like 40,000 people liked

00:40:02.200 it too, but you look at that and you go, that is a perfect commentary on the state of our culture

00:40:08.960 because they hate God's natural design and they hate what God has said in his supernatural

00:40:13.960 revelation about children. They hate both of it because they hate God. And what they actually

00:40:18.420 end up doing is they're just harming themselves. They're just hurting themselves.

00:40:24.060 Yeah, it's fascinating. So I started reading, I don't know how you say it, Humanae Vitae.

00:40:29.140 Oh, yeah.

00:40:29.900 From Pope John Paul, I think.

00:40:31.860 Yeah, I know what you're talking about. 0.92

00:40:33.680 But several, several decades ago, and they're talking about the Catholics, they're talking 0.57

00:40:39.000 about why abortion and the birth control, you know, the pill, 0.81

00:40:43.460 all that is so bad and what it's going to lead to.

00:40:46.420 And I remember like 20 years ago reading that and being like, 1.00

00:40:48.500 oh, the Catholics.

00:40:49.520 Being like, that's a little extreme. 1.00

00:40:50.740 Their fertility.

00:40:51.540 And now you read it and it's like,

00:40:52.920 this is the most biting commentary on our time.

00:40:56.900 Because he basically said, look,

00:40:58.720 the pill is going to create a culture of death.

00:41:01.240 So true.

00:41:01.860 And what's crazy, even in reform circles,

00:41:03.460 you have pastors who are like,

00:41:04.540 you know what's a blessing is the pill.

00:41:06.980 But then you think about complementarianism, John Piper, Wayne Grudem.

00:41:11.960 They write that book, and it's about men and women in Christ.

00:41:15.540 The opening chapters of Genesis open with talking about men and women, fruitfulness.

00:41:20.560 Yeah, fruitfulness.

00:41:21.380 They open their book, and they're like, you know what's really glorious is singlehood.

00:41:25.160 Singleness.

00:41:25.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.95

00:41:27.120 You're like, I think this is culturally driven, not biblically driven.

00:41:32.560 Yeah, I don't think you're reading the book of nature or the book of scripture properly.

00:41:38.300 So I think the reality is, and my point in all this, is that Dan's absolutely right.

00:41:42.340 In the church, we should have a high view of children.

00:41:46.360 However, I would say in the majority of the evangelical church, the birthrights would say that we don't value them.

00:41:52.220 Yeah.

00:41:53.560 So have lots of children.

00:41:54.920 but so i know some people hear this and maybe it's a very small majority yeah minority a small

00:42:01.880 majority anyway a small minority but they'll say things like oh so you're part of the quiver full

00:42:08.040 movement right of course so so what do you guys think about that i quite honestly i hadn't heard

00:42:13.040 about it until recently yeah as a as a thing yeah so the we were in churches where you had some

00:42:20.200 people uh in the mid i guess the midwest um we had some people who would proudly say were quiverful

00:42:26.720 um above rubies nancy campbell um they've sort of been in that camp um and then also the duggars

00:42:33.580 would be another um so generally speaking that they're gonna say like you know fertility at all

00:42:40.520 cost militant fecundity is what is often referred to what a what a based militant militant fecundity

00:42:48.240 Oh, my goodness.

00:42:50.180 That's awesome.

00:42:50.960 I've never heard that.

00:42:52.100 I'm making a T-shirt for that.

00:42:53.940 I'm sorry.

00:42:54.680 They would generally reject things, and it depends.

00:42:58.460 I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth,

00:43:00.760 but a lot of them would reject any sort of natural family planning,

00:43:04.860 any sex act where you prohibited procreation as sinful.

00:43:10.200 And to be fair, when you read Calvin and Luther,

00:43:13.820 they're a lot closer to that than people who haven't read them think.

00:43:18.240 Here, here's one of the plays that will get run on you. If you are any kind of conservative

00:43:22.680 Christian, people will come up with a derogatory slander term that's supposed to communicate 1.00

00:43:28.460 basically their disdain for working class Christian normies as dumb idiots. And that 1.00

00:43:33.880 what you need is our very nuanced ivory tower position on fecundity and on fertility and

00:43:40.420 Christians having children. And, and really, but they'll never actually, you can't pin them down. 0.91

00:43:45.000 number one you're like well what what do you mean like are you you hate this quiverful thing

00:43:49.660 are you like is birth control good what do you think about the abortifacent nature of birth

00:43:54.220 of chemical birth control what do you think about all these downstream effects of a society built

00:43:57.860 on it like it and they won't be pinned down because they're all nuanced bros and so on the

00:44:02.240 one hand one instinct i have is to be like okay i'm i'm unwilling to entirely adopt anybody's

00:44:08.580 thing like quiverful whatever i'm sure it has roots in the early 20th century and this guy

00:44:12.940 wrote this and this guy said this. Sure. But let's be honest here. The generally historic

00:44:20.220 Christian position on these things across thousands of years at this point is pretty skeptical

00:44:27.220 of human contraceptive efforts. And whether you hate that or not, that is the historical fact.

00:44:35.380 Yeah. So I actually brought this up on Twitter one time and I was kind of like, yeah, some of

00:44:39.060 these quiverful people kind of rub me the wrong way and there are definitely people so one of the

00:44:43.900 issues where i get into is like the health of the mother yeah um so doctors like good christian wise

00:44:49.220 doctors will actually say like hey you need to like so find a way to hit the pause button here

00:44:53.360 because yeah this could be dangerous a lot of them would be like can't stop won't stop but a lot of

00:44:59.040 the people would just say it would get into like prosperity gospel theology where they're like

00:45:03.140 well you just need more faith yep and i'm like well you know faith says read the bible and the

00:45:07.320 bible says the land even needs rest yes so and land and womb are connected in a typological

00:45:12.800 fashion fertility yeah um so if we let things rest there's there's a case to be made for that

00:45:17.540 how you do it i think is another question but i do think that in the midst of all that discussion

00:45:22.740 i started reading uh calvin yeah and and again luther and then i was actually shocked with

00:45:30.720 like the people we say we're reformers and doug wilson has made a case that's kind of pro birth

00:45:36.560 control. And he even has to admit in making his case, this isn't the historical reform position.

00:45:42.960 Right. You have to start by admitting that. And then when you make your justification,

00:45:46.460 it better be a good one. So when you're going to move an ancient landmark,

00:45:50.000 you make sure that you know your business. You make sure you know why they put that landmark

00:45:53.820 there. So this is a question where Christians, because technology has allowed us to outpace 0.62

00:45:58.500 our maturity, have been altogether too cavalier about moving ancient landmarks. 0.95

00:46:02.720 so instead of just going well obviously it's it's absurd to say that we should not intervene

00:46:09.280 in christian fertility so therefore we should intervene in christian fertility stop and think

00:46:13.840 maybe they actually had knew something about the nature of human sinfulness as it works out

00:46:19.600 culturally that would mean we should actually be pretty pretty slow in this area if anything we

00:46:25.120 should be erring on the side of fruitfulness yes so a hundred percent my caveats are similar to

00:46:30.520 years. Yeah. Yeah. Men don't be like, don't be naming and claiming prosperity. Like if you

00:46:35.460 just had enough faith, your wife wouldn't have medical issues in pregnancy. That's not the way

00:46:39.520 disease works in scripture. Sorry. It's just not. We're not prosperity theologians. We're not

00:46:44.520 health, wealth, and prosperity guys. Yeah. Use wisdom. God absolutely was not, didn't make it

00:46:51.760 so that we would notice things about the fertility cycle of a woman. Yeah. God made it a cycle and

00:46:56.580 to plan. Yeah, it's not just random. He could have made it random. Again, he didn't. So it's

00:47:02.160 perfectly acceptable, in my opinion, to notice that and to plan for your children, to plan and

00:47:10.220 even influence how fertility works in your home. I'm fine with all those things, and the principles

00:47:15.460 I think are good and can be biblically demonstrated. Like you say, with land and rest,

00:47:21.040 providing for your family, all of those things. But what our culture needs to hear far more than

00:47:25.840 that and this is why i'm so strong the other way yeah they don't need that message mostly they

00:47:30.340 they are like our culture needs to hear no children are a blessing and are you're swimming

00:47:37.260 in a culture of death so you need to make sure you understand that those waters are on you

00:47:41.260 and your thinking is shaped by this when you think about like song of solomon like this this

00:47:46.740 intensely in marriage intensely sexual book by metaphor and symbolism and all this but it's in

00:47:53.400 a garden and in the garden everything surrounding their relationship is their intimate relationship

00:47:58.500 is fruit it's blooming and fruitful yeah so obviously the connection there is it's weird

00:48:03.800 like in our culture we we seem to quote unquote love sex meaning we're inundated with everything 0.94

00:48:09.200 sexual but it's like lizzo in a trash bag oh my word please don't bring that back up i just the 0.79

00:48:16.240 image popped in my head and it was literally violence that is literally literally literally 0.95

00:48:20.220 did violence to me but we don't think of like if we properly in a christian way revere respect and

00:48:25.980 and love sex and marriage it's going to be fruitful so that that's another way to look

00:48:30.420 at it and say is it is it doing the thing it's supposed to right and this is this is again you

00:48:35.600 have to properly read the book of nature in the book of scripture yes because both of them come

00:48:39.720 together to preach a message about the nature of human fruitfulness that is obviously positive

00:48:46.680 Now, of course, one of the patterns in God's world as well is that every blessing can become a curse and correspondingly, however great it was as a blessing, however powerful the blessing it was, it can correspondingly become an even more harsh curse.

00:49:05.280 particularly if like with children

00:49:07.760 and this is where I think a lot of the

00:49:09.620 criticism of patriarchal camps in the past

00:49:11.640 have come from and quiverful

00:49:13.680 it's like yeah you had

00:49:15.480 27 kids and like 26 of them

00:49:17.680 are apostate yeah three of them 0.85

00:49:19.540 are lesbians four of them 0.99

00:49:21.700 are democrats but I repeat myself 0.98

00:49:23.420 five of them are

00:49:25.300 I just wanted to make that joke

00:49:27.500 yeah so and Doug is

00:49:29.580 good on this I think in saying like

00:49:30.980 we have to also faithfully raise them in the promises

00:49:33.700 Yeah. Psalm 127 is a perfect example of this. You won't be ashamed when your enemies stand at the

00:49:38.360 gates because you have lots of children. Clearly he's not talking about infants sitting behind you.

00:49:42.040 You have like grown sons who are there and you don't even have to carry a sword or a bow anymore

00:49:48.620 because you just go out and you're like, I hear that there's a problem when the raiding band comes

00:49:53.760 near and all of your sons and your tribe and your brother's sons are there and they've got their

00:49:58.160 swords in their hands and they're like, we hear you wanted to make trouble. And the people go,

00:50:01.780 oh, no, I'm sorry. There's been a mistake. Of course, if your kids went and joined the enemy,

00:50:07.560 they wouldn't be a blessing anymore. They'd be another enemy. And it would hurt all the more

00:50:12.120 because they were your people that betrayed you. Yeah. The gates, it's a really good picture

00:50:16.840 because it is the center in a lot of ways of the city. Economically, that's where merchants would

00:50:23.100 come and do their trading. That's where city business would occur a lot of the times. And

00:50:26.920 then when enemies would come and meet. And so you have a couple of different facets to that,

00:50:32.140 that, that, you know, I pray that my sons would stand with me at the gates because when enemies

00:50:38.140 come against us, that they would stand and be courageous and that they would have captured

00:50:43.880 this vision and that they would also, you know, be covenant members in the, in the new covenant

00:50:49.120 and that they would stand firm also that they wouldn't bring their father's shame so that when

00:50:53.440 business was conducted, that they were the shyster, that they were the ones scheming and

00:50:58.160 they were the ones doing underhanded deals with merchants and things like that, but that they

00:51:02.140 would actually fulfill righteousness even in their dealings like that. So, well, just as I hope that

00:51:08.560 my boys will stand with me at the gates, I also pray that your children will stand at the gates

00:51:13.800 with you. And unfortunately, that's all the time we have for this episode. And we have so much

00:51:18.920 stinking more content left in this outline and some pretty big points that we want to cover and

00:51:26.120 it wouldn't be doing it justice if we continued so we're going to have to stop right here we want

00:51:31.120 to thank our sponsors first reformation heritage books they've released some exciting new books

00:51:37.360 recently that you should definitely go and check out heritagebooks.org that's right okay yes i love

00:51:44.060 the confidence heritagebooks i always forget if it's org or com but it's org it's an org it's org

00:51:48.820 yes and and also thank you to christendom college for for sponsoring us some great programs there

00:51:54.220 some base education they don't take government money they are slaves to no one not the government

00:52:00.820 and so go and check them out as well and always remember festin alente make haste slowly is that

00:52:09.060 what that means it does i don't do this closing very often and god bless and we'll talk to you

00:52:13.600 next week

00:52:18.820 well in case you didn't know we have another king's hall show called the after hours and

00:52:25.960 it's available only to our patrons we have a great time in the after hours i play hype songs which

00:52:31.060 brian loves sometimes we even talk about brian's cut we talk about recent news on x and answer

00:52:35.540 listener questions overall it's a great time so i'd encourage you to head over to patreon.com

00:52:41.380 slash the king's hall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content

00:52:45.920 Thank you.

The King's Hall - September 02, 2022

Covenant Succession： Children & Worship (Part I)

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