00:05:00.300I mean, I haven't had any witch fires to put out yet with my bare feet.
00:05:03.180It would be rather, you know, boastful of anybody to say like, yeah, one of the greatest characters demonstrating astonishing virtue in the face of certain death and bewitchment far in the deeps of the earth.
00:07:18.800Yeah, it really – I think one of the issues too – and there was a lot of good people mixed in with a lot of, I think, bad faith actors in the comments.
00:07:26.400But one of the questions that people were asking about this was, is Eric saying things like, if you adopt a child, it's not, quote, unquote, your own?
00:07:33.680Is this somehow like a racist tweet or, you know, et cetera, et cetera?
00:07:38.460And so I think just from the beginning, I think I'm using language that Paul is using, saying he who does not take care of his own household is worse than an unbeliever.
00:07:48.540This would have been a pretty normal way, I think, for the reformers, the Puritans.
00:07:52.420You can think of William Gouge on his instruction in Ephesians 5 on the family.
00:07:56.980This is a pretty normal way to talk about natural affection for, yes, your biological children.
00:08:02.940And we'll continue to unpack some of the responses and questions that arise from this.
00:08:07.960It was interesting at this time of recording, I checked again.
00:08:12.220The post has almost 700,000 views, 300 reposts, 833 likes, and 400 comments.
00:08:19.680Interesting to note, James White, Dr. James White.
00:08:28.540Which, you know, Dr. White being an excellent debater and, of course, debate being very much concerned with the clear and precise use of language.
00:14:15.120counseling type conversations with you
00:14:17.020And you're talking about adoption. These are not things that like I can say publicly, hey, let me tell you about this situation. I also thought it was interesting that I had scores of messages, text messages, Twitter messages, Facebook messages, Instagram messages of people saying you're absolutely right.
00:14:36.420and this is how it destroyed my family or this is how harmful it was because of all the rhetoric of
00:14:41.840the you know 2000s young restless reform their emphasis even today there's a huge emphasis
00:14:48.380on adoption and a lot of the people said i would post this publicly but i don't want to be shamed
00:14:55.240it's already hurt our family enough yeah and so i think it's it's sort of like it turned into a mob
00:15:00.960pretty quickly. And we'll continue to maybe ask some questions about why that was.
00:15:06.360So Eric, before we keep going, I think maybe it'd be a good idea for us just to get
00:15:11.140clear away some of the bad faith or failure of reading comprehension or like the worst possible
00:15:18.980assumptions that people made about your tweet. Let's just start with, are you saying adoption
00:15:23.480itself is sinful, wrong, bad, inherently unwise? What do you say?
00:15:29.120Yeah, definitely not. I would say basically what the issue comes down to is, is it a moral obligation to adopt? In other words, can we say to people, you are sinning if you don't adopt? You must adopt.
00:15:41.720I think the rhetoric lends toward that.
00:15:45.220We've seen people in First Things and even Desiring God, ERLC articles, calling it things like a moral obligation to adopt or a secondary moral obligation to adopt.
00:15:56.960And really my point here is you can adopt.
00:16:00.700But the whole emphasis of saying you can is that it's a wisdom issue.
00:16:05.140Yeah. And what we can't do as pastors is bind the conscience to something that we don't have a scriptural warrant for. Yeah. I think we'll get into this, too. But I think what's really interesting about this discussion is that so much of the same people in the same movement are really uncomfortable telling people that you should have children if you're married.
00:16:29.060So in the past, I had gotten into it with Stephen Outroge, who's written on Twitter, who's written for Desiring God and also the Gospel Coalition.
00:16:37.000And I had said, based on another conversation, that I think it's not a biblical – it's not a picture of biblical obedience for dinks, dual income, no kids, to say, hey, we want to be married and we don't want children.
00:16:51.940We talked about this in the fertility episode.
00:16:53.600I don't think that's a viable, obedient, biblical position.
00:16:57.460And Stephen said to me in that case, he said, you are wrongfully binding the consciences of Christians by telling them that they should have children.
00:17:04.680And I said, well, in this case, I actually have a command, Genesis 128, be fruitful, multiply.
00:17:09.200And this still applies in the new covenant.
00:17:13.100Well, and then you fast forward to the adoption issue.
00:17:15.920Stephen was going back and forth with me about it again.
00:17:18.680And he said, no, Christians absolutely have to adopt.
00:17:22.260And I was like, well, that's really interesting.
00:17:24.140You're willing to take a biblical command and just discard it.
00:17:27.380But now you're importing a biblical command where we don't have a Genesis 128 for adoption.
00:17:32.840You know, we don't have a similar passage.
00:17:35.820It's, again, to your point, one of the core, at least the way that I read it, one of the core principles that you were pointing out, which is this isn't just a fringe thing that you're just lobbing grenades for no reason.
00:17:47.040This is one of the key failures of thinking and ethics in our current evangelical world.
00:17:53.420And it's a failure of ethics when it comes to globalism versus particularism with that Pastor Isker was pointing out in our cold open that we so often we actually illegitly we discard the real commands of God by globalizing and generalizing them where we say, yes, we have a command to widows and orphans.
00:18:15.240And we have a command to – when we turn that into a globalist, well, you have this duty to everybody.
00:18:22.080The whole church has this duty to everybody.
00:18:26.460You have to actually start with who were the people who were morally responsible and sinned when they walked by the man beaten on the side of the road.
00:18:34.260It was the people who walked by him and saw and said, eh, not my problem.
00:18:39.420Rather than all of the other people in the town who had no idea that that guy was laying beaten on the side of the road.
00:18:44.420they weren't in sin. They didn't have a sin of omission by walking by. But what we so often do
00:18:49.760in evangelicalism is we neglect practical teaching on things like how to be a father
00:18:56.720ahead of his house who leads his wife and his family well, who provides well, who takes care
00:19:01.180of his own children first, and then works his way on outward in the outward ring sphere of
00:19:07.420responsibilities. We don't do a good job of talking about that. Instead, we send our kids
00:19:12.760to public school to be educated by pagans we send them off to our daughters off to colleges to be
00:19:19.260educated by pagans to become you know things that eric khan has also tweeted about controversially
00:19:24.300we we we and then we do so while and then we say many of us say oh we don't we want our kids to be
00:19:32.440self-reliant we're not going to help with housing when they're 18 they're out they're on their own
00:19:35.740while we continue to send money to compassion international and we continue to send money for
00:19:41.080foreign missions. And again, like Isker said, those things aren't bad, but you got to get the
00:19:46.160first things first. You have to get the natural affection that even the pagans understand
00:19:51.440right first before you work out like that. Well, and I mean, I absolutely agree with you. And I
00:19:57.360think this is exactly where mainstream evangelicalism has gone wrong. So you think
00:20:00.940about the gospel coalition and they invert these priorities. So you'll see lots of articles about
00:20:06.740how having a family is an idol how being a wife and a mother is an idol how you can make your
00:20:11.600kids an idol you don't see like have you made adoption an idol which i think actually you know
00:20:21.180dan and i were talking about this it seems like dan this is a case where did you touch the idol
00:20:27.620based on people's responses and a lot of times people who are capable of clear thought were not
00:20:32.920thinking clearly. Yeah. There was a lot of emotional responses and outrage. Did you think
00:20:38.900it was like, was there an idol being touched? Yeah. I think that you can often get a good
00:20:45.380measure of this. Christians have done this for centuries. You'll take something that's generally
00:20:50.580a good, like adoption is a good. It can be. It can be a moral good. Yeah. And it becomes elevated
00:20:58.760to a status in which, you know, not to get ahead of us too far, becomes almost like a
00:21:04.160sacrament of the church or as Eric has said in private conversation with me, like an indulgence
00:24:36.600Chapter 20 on the basically liberty of conscience.
00:24:40.580Yeah, liberty of conscience. So I went back, was reading through that. One of the things that stated in there is this, God alone is Lord of the conscience and have left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to his word or beside it in matters of faith or worship.
00:24:57.260So one of the key things here, as we've said, is we want to be really careful forcing a commandment of men on people when Scripture doesn't warrant that.
00:26:17.660stop saying they're not, which is not what you're saying.
00:26:19.620Once you adopt a child, that child is your
00:26:21.640own. Yes. And you have an obligation to provide
00:26:23.760for them. They're a member of your household. Of course, obviously, only an idiot would say
00:26:28.240otherwise, right? And Eric's not an idiot. He just like insulted a whole swath of people.1.00
00:26:33.040I'm just saying like only an idiot would say that someone you've brought into the covenantal0.98
00:26:37.260and legal protection of your household isn't your own and that that's what you were saying.0.98
00:26:41.860So you weren't saying that, but take someone in that situation. They read you in the least
00:26:47.040charitable possible light. And what they end up doing is if that person's standard became the
00:26:51.880pastor anybody through the question of adoption. Lots of families would make radically unwise
00:26:57.020choices. Because think about this, when you're adopting, even people who have done it before
00:27:03.680will give you, like Lexi and I looked into fostering at one point, young children in our
00:27:08.160home. It was closer to this period that many of us went through where adoption was really being
00:27:14.680pushed as like the gospel issue of the time. And we had been looking into fostering. So we began
00:27:20.780to ask some people from who had done it, who had fostered, adopted, done local and foreign
00:27:26.220adoptions, babies and other, you know, ages. And the advice we got over and over from many of these
00:27:32.900families was many of them said, don't do it in your current stage of life. I'm very thankful for
00:27:37.400that. And almost I think universally, every single one of them said, if you do, here are some things
00:27:44.060that you must think through. Don't adopt out of age order. So if you're adopting and you have
00:27:50.720If your youngest kid is four, you should only adopt children under four so that there's a natural birth order.
00:27:58.700Yes. Age birth order. You're not introducing a 12 year old. All of a sudden they gave a lot of, you know, here's some issues that we ran into some discipline issues, some and and I'm thankful that we actually didn't at that time.
00:28:12.560I don't think it would have been wise for our family. And I think it might have caused big
00:28:17.340problems with our own children in hindering us from doing a good job with our own children
00:28:22.220at that stage of life. So if you universalize this command and say, or even get all outraged
00:28:28.540and act like any questioning of it or any urge to caution or any urge to wisdom is inherently
00:30:33.860I've heard a lot of people say like, okay, we brought these kids into our home, and it was like having a boys or girls home.
00:30:39.240And it really wasn't healthy to expose my other children to that.
00:30:43.460Somebody who was in this kind of young restless and reform movement I was talking to recently, pastor, poor, you know, you're kind of in a movement in the SBC where it's like be poor because that's righteous.
00:30:54.380more righteous right poverty theology so you know he told me he was like here we were we're like
00:30:58.540poor but you know russ moore is like you need to adopt you need to adopt you need to adopt we adopt
00:31:02.320a child uh through foster they say yep it's you know he's healthy everything else two three years
00:31:09.720old they start to realize he's got some major mental retardation severe autism type stuff going
00:31:14.680on very costly and expensive to take care of they were not prepared for that it greatly disrupted
00:31:20.720you know with having biological children and having to spend so much time caring
00:31:24.940for this child who is now late teens and I was talking to the dad and he said
00:31:30.440this child will live with me forever and he said I believe in God's providence God's sovereign
00:31:36.040but he said I genuinely believe the rhetoric coming out of the pulpit about adoption is
00:31:41.160extremely harmful and basically because it was like gospel yeah is adoption so therefore
00:31:48.580natural imperative outflow of the gospel is you must adopt.
00:31:52.620And often where this rhetoric goes to, you've mentioned this already obliquely, but
00:31:57.440is that it's aimed at, often it lands very powerfully in young married couples who are
00:32:05.600in their like 19 to 25 years old kind of range. They have no experience in parenting yet. Many of
00:32:11.160them haven't had children of their own, or they're just starting to. And then many of those families
00:32:16.240without anybody or very few people telling them any kind of like, whoa, there, hey, let's think
00:32:22.180this through. Let's make sure that you're prepared for this. Let, you know, it's like, no, it's the
00:32:27.920gospel picture. Like, you got to do it. Like, let's, yeah, let's fundraise. Let's raise the
00:32:31.88020 or 40 or $60,000 and let's make this happen. And it's like this rush of external display
00:32:39.740that then goes through. And again, the only ones you'll hear about are the ones that were
00:32:45.860successful. You won't hear about the ones where it was like, wow, that actually really damaged
00:32:52.180our family, harmed our kids, and harmed our ability to be faithful to the duties we had
00:32:56.580before the Lord. Right. And I mean, two other stories that come to mind to kind of demonstrate
00:33:01.380this. I'll try to be fairly vague with details, but you have teenage girls and you have male
00:33:09.880child brought in and adopted doesn't view sisters as sisters right so uh then you have uh sexual
00:33:17.000problems yeah not knowing how much delinquency it was in the past of the the boy child can become
00:33:23.900so egregious and people you know in those situations are that i've had conversations
00:33:29.940with they said like we were not told right we just said like adopt gospel adopt uh the other
00:33:36.260one that is probably the most egregious one uh russia has since banned adoptions yeah they've
00:33:41.720banned foreign adoptions and this is maybe one reason why uh a church situation that i was you
00:33:47.240know i i knew of uh was a girl who was adopted from russia into a christian family uh she had
00:33:54.140been abused as a child comes over uh father ends up going to jail because daughter is performing
00:34:00.280sexual acts on on father not you know adoptive adoptive father so uh these are examples of
00:34:08.880i think just extremes that like when you go to the erlc website they're not talking about this one
00:34:14.340they're not talking about what could go wrong and then maybe one that's not as severe but uh
00:34:20.320speaking to some friends recently who years of miscarriage infertility finally were able to have
00:34:26.520a child and all the adoption posting was going on and the dad said to me he said thank you so much
00:34:31.580for what you said i was like what why would why would that matter to you and he said well when
00:34:35.940we were infertile people were like you must adopt it's like heavy pressure yeah like heavy pressure
00:34:41.900like you have to do this and he said that really meant a lot that that you would take the shot and
00:34:46.820just just kind of defend us give the warning i didn't even realize it you know yeah uh was doing
00:34:51.760but i i think a lot of this this is why it's an important wisdom issue that you have to think
00:34:56.120through this and not just, I think it's actually irresponsible. Well, and we have, to be totally
00:35:01.100clear, again, like all of the things people are assuming, we have multiple families in the church
00:35:05.680who have wisely and successfully adopted children, and they are doing a great job avoiding the
00:35:12.000ditches, did their homework, did this well. Very thankful for those children. Very thankful for
00:35:18.160those families. And it absolutely is one expression of how we've obeyed James 127 and other passages
00:35:25.100about caring for widows and orphans, absolutely.
00:35:50.660looking after orphans in their affliction.
00:35:52.480Woe to those who speak against what God loves.
00:35:56.280What the implication of that tweet, especially if you read what you actually said and not what people emotionally – not what people felt in their emotions when they read what you said, which is a different thing.
00:36:06.560Anybody who reads that, the implication is pretty clear.
00:36:10.740Anybody who doesn't adopt is – or anybody who disagrees or urges any caution whatsoever in wisdom taking and thinking through this process for a family, woe to them.
00:36:20.880they're speaking against what god loves like what that's actually a pretty serious are you kidding
00:36:27.580me this is another thing you think the the other tweet that owen had i thought was interesting he
00:36:33.160said i am aware of exactly no one who has said it is sinful to love your own like what what that's
00:36:39.200a non sequitur utterly unrelated and then he says what has been said rightly is that loving those
00:36:44.400not like you is reflective of christ's atoning blood that unites jews and gentile as one new
00:36:50.080man, Ephesians 2.15. God help you, Eric. God help you, Eric. Here's what I love about this tweet
00:36:55.040is that, first of all, it is a common issue with this G3 Christian nationalism divide here,
00:37:00.580where the, what I would say is trending in an Anabaptist direction theologically,
00:37:05.880is that they don't understand categorically what you're talking about when you just use
00:37:11.020classic reformed doctrinal categories. Like saying a natural family. Like natural affection
00:37:16.280or the order of loves. And those are all clearly biblical doctrines that theologians have been
00:37:23.020uncontroversially using for hundreds of years. And then they pour into it, like Owen is implying
00:37:32.120there that you're saying that Christ's atoning blood is not enough to unite Jew and Gentile,
00:37:37.240and that you're saying that somehow this duty to love your own, which is a direct biblical
00:37:41.200commandment is you saying and don't you love those other skinned people yeah which is like0.99
00:37:46.960just absolutely stupid thing to say like here i how on earth did this man get a doctorate0.98
00:37:52.540with thinking that unclear i mean he's thinking like an emotional teenage girl he's not reasoning0.99
00:37:59.120like a a christian man who has a doctrine in theology and should be the leading example of
00:38:04.340how to treat other people in their words and i'm like owen like what are you many example i wouldn't
00:38:10.860be speaking so strongly if owen hadn't given example after example after example after example
00:38:15.680after example of this kind of honestly cowardly and sinful treatment of his interlocutors yeah
00:38:24.320like the implication don't miss this people don't just be like oh yeah classic christian
00:38:28.800nationalism tweet debate he's saying that eric is a christ-denying racist yeah that's the
00:38:35.700implication yeah which is slanderous in the extreme yeah well it actually makes sense that
00:38:41.320his rhetoric would be like this emotive in nature we're trying to win because he's
00:38:46.480well yes well they are all the women who screenshotted and blocked me and went on to
00:38:51.480gossip and slander in the comments owen started retweeting them and saying amen sister yeah well
00:38:56.440but what i was going to say is that it makes sense that he would reason this way post tweet
00:39:00.960because this is the way he reasons pre-tweet.
00:39:03.940In order to actually make adoption a moral imperative,
00:39:09.500they treat foreign missions the same way.
00:39:12.240And the reason I would say this is like a sacrament
00:39:14.400or an indulgence is because automatically
00:39:34.120And isn't it – isn't that somewhat Gnostic too though to say that there's like a special class, almost like the secret knowledge, like a special class of ultra-Christian?
00:39:44.180Yeah, you're now embodying the gospel in some ultra-standard way.
00:39:47.760Here's the other thing I think people are missing.
00:39:49.260There's – I can't remember who tweeted this thread.
00:39:50.780It was very helpful on this conversation was the person who said a lot of older people and even a lot of younger people today didn't live through the period that if you're about between the age of 28 and 40, you lived this period of the 2000s where the dominant narrative was being ruled by David Platt, radical, desiring God at its most, I would say, proto-woke, which I'm not saying desiring God is everything they've ever done is woke or worth.
00:40:48.180i had professors berating us constantly about adopting kids they treated them like designer
00:40:53.680accessories and symbols of spiritual piety and it was disgusting i think that's the tweet that
00:41:00.700that was actually one of them there was even another one that talked about several people
00:41:04.660noted this though and it helped connect the dots for me because it was this i was that age at this
00:41:10.360time we were all in this in this era at a formative time when you're not the teacher you're you're
00:41:16.560saying I'm here to be taught like, okay, Christian leaders, thought leaders, public theologians help
00:41:21.500us to become godly pastors and, you know, ministry aspiring men. Yeah. So you have zeal without
00:41:26.580experience, no experience yet. And you're submitting to these men. You're saying, well,
00:41:30.500I'm going to go where they tell me to go, or I'm going to consider it, you know, deeply.
00:41:34.400And the result of that was that many, many families were led to believe that at this time,
00:41:42.140If you wanted to be a truly radical, you know, not go for the American false gospel or the, you know, there were so many packaging put on it and it has implications for so many areas of life that we're all still kind of detoxing from.
00:41:56.460But as controversial as it is, I understand why adoption narratives were a big part of how this pack, this radical plat kind of gospel got out there.
00:42:10.720It was a huge constituent part of that messaging.
00:42:14.160Well, I was talking to somebody else that has moved since, come to our church from Salt Lake.
00:42:19.680They were going to like a gospel-centered church.
00:42:21.860And they said, oh, no, we knew people, like many couples who got married.
00:42:27.100And they said, like one couple in particular they were telling me about was they both got sterilized, permanently sterilized.
00:42:33.840And they said, there's too many orphans in the world.
00:42:47.260Another friend from the South told me, he goes, oh, yeah, you go into like any SBC or Fundy Baptist Church, and like it's pretty normal for like every family to have like one or two black kids.
00:44:02.440We're going to ensure that she's – is she a younger Christian woman who should be urged to marry so that she doesn't become a gossip and she doesn't go from house to house?
00:44:09.720Well, then I'm going to urge her not to be enrolled but to be remarried.
00:44:13.400Okay, what kind of orphans are we talking about here?
00:44:15.960Is it a 14-year-old unruly child who didn't have a father and he's not a Christian in any sense?
00:44:22.300Okay, that's a different kind of duty than the Christians who were going out and they were saying the Romans are leaving these girl babies or these children to be exposed and die.
00:44:31.620And they pick that infant up and they bring it home.
00:44:33.880And Christians were both reviled and renowned in the ancient world for this kind of behavior.
00:44:39.920What it didn't mean, though, is that any orphan, all of a sudden the local church had that immoral obligation to adopt them fully into the family.
00:44:50.280Christians throughout the ages have wisely ordered how they care for, and one of the
00:44:54.720wise things that they've done is that in many cases, where there are older children who
00:44:59.540would genuinely, again, I know this sounds controversial, but older children for whom
00:45:04.380it would be very unwise for your other children, for many families to bring them in as their
00:45:09.300own, be very unwise for the culture and the discipleship of the other children in the
00:45:14.180family that you have a direct duty to, Christians would often start orphanages.
00:45:19.040They would start boys' homes, girls' homes, keeping them separate, the boys from the girls, knowing the egregious sexual abuse and sexual issues that arise in some of these because you have 12, 13 fatherless boys who have not been discipled whatsoever going through puberty.
00:45:36.620And then all of a sudden, some families have adopted children like this, and they've ended up having to run a lockdown in their home where one wing of the house is where the girls go, and it's got a different key.
00:45:46.780And at night, it's like there's a full lockdown system to keep them safe from the adopted sibling.
00:45:54.640So you have to take a command like this, particularize it, let it be governed by the local church in their local area, and be very careful in the way you talk about it that you don't heap burdens on people that might lead them to make an unwise decision for their family.
00:46:09.380give them wise ways of loving the widow and the orphan that are consistent with the biblical
00:46:15.520ordering of loves consistent with biblical wisdom and what people what was so criminal about the
00:46:20.900way people are reacting to this is they were making it act like when you when you were saying
00:46:26.160the order of loves being properly worked out from the middle that you were saying that all of those0.89
00:46:31.660people who have adopted all the white families that have adopted black children are unwise and
00:46:36.160that you're, you know, like they're not really their own. They imported all of that. Yeah. They0.97
00:46:41.340brought that with them to your tweet. You didn't say any of that. Yeah, exactly. Uh, one of the
00:46:47.100things, Brian, that I was just like providentially this morning, I was thinking about all this
00:46:52.220reading in Acts 19, Paul causes a riot at Ephesus. Yeah. Because he's denouncing idol worship. But
00:47:00.000the problem is that the silversmiths are making a lot of money. Yeah. Off of this. And you know,
00:47:05.600we're told I think 50,000 pieces of silver was the amount of the books that
00:47:08.760they burned with, this is like, you, you guys are haunted cosmos.
00:47:13.640That all sorts of witchy stuff, all sorts of witchy stuff, magic books.
00:47:17.360I think this is another piece of the pie that people do not consider because
00:47:20.380it, it doesn't fit in that warm, glowy sermonic format of what people have been
00:47:25.560told in a lot of gospel center churches.
00:47:27.820But you have to realize that adoption is an industry.
00:47:31.340People make their livings off of this.
00:47:32.900So the reason I started looking at this was because one of our listeners and somebody who follows on Twitter said, well, you know, a lot of these conferences are sponsored by adoption agencies, these mega conferences that people are happening or having.
00:47:46.740So I haven't tracked that down yet, but that was worth noting.
00:48:40.120As soon as you start to mix in the politics of donors and the politics of fundraising into issues, you're just going to have bad faith actors who get in and basically take something that is absolutely virtuous at its core.
00:48:54.220Pro-life industry is another example of this.
00:48:56.900And they come in and they make a living on it and they monetize and basically in adoption what happens is that you take something where you're actually monetizing people's virtue and you're doing it in a way that can functionally end up being like human trafficking where they're – foreign countries do this all the time.
00:49:16.720They take care of – they take advantage of a wealthy American philanthropy by – they basically sell children.
00:49:24.720In fact, this is – so in 2013, Russia banned U.S. adoptions, and one of their biggest concerns was that there were a lot of abuses happening and that these children will be sold into human trafficking.
00:49:34.720And even – and also LGBTQ families, but we repeat ourselves.
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00:51:06.760They would say – and here's – and the good ones will say yes.
00:51:09.660And this is exactly where the criminal evil grifting is happening.
00:51:13.880Often it's in government regulation and dealing with foreign governments.
00:51:16.660But you just have to realize that you – people, wicked men will actually take your Christian virtue and they will try to take advantage of it.
00:51:27.760And so I think if we're winding towards kind of a landing place for this episode, the question I think that lasts for us to discuss that would be really important and connecting it to our season.
00:51:39.140Like it's not random that we're doing this here in a season on fatherhood.
00:51:41.640We're not just doing this because, oh, this is a big tweet that's happening to, you know, be controversial now, is that fathers, men, need to think very carefully about how they protect their homes from emotionalist thinking, people who will prey on their wives' emotions.
00:52:01.200because people will prey on your wife's emotions in order to try and convince you to do something
00:52:08.640without thinking it through clearly, without seeking godly counsel. So how should a father
00:52:15.460be thinking? Let's split this into two categories, maybe even three categories. And the one would be
00:52:21.860how should a father, considering they've been thinking about adoption, what should they be
00:52:25.580thinking through? Second would be, okay, you've adopted children and that's your situation as a
00:52:29.640father? What are some things that you should be thinking through to make sure that you do a good
00:52:33.100job to your, these are now your children. And then, um, also I think maybe the third category
00:52:38.220would be what, what should, what would we say that people should be who were offended by your tweet?
00:52:46.140Cause some of our listeners, I even saw some people say, you know, I'm usually with Eric,
00:52:51.260but I think he went too far here. I think any last words on that, this is probably too big
00:52:56.700have a question this is why you're usually the one who's leading it i think in like complex
00:53:01.180three-part questions and you just like say so dan what do you think about this but i'll actually
00:53:05.620start with the last one because it's the one i remember but also yeah because i i i there's kind
00:53:11.360of like two categories on the one hand there's a lot of people who have followed us for a long
00:53:15.500time again it was it was kind of sad to see they blocked and started screenshotting and they were
00:53:20.260very upset um one of the ones that that didn't do that uh the the handle is patriarchy hannah
00:53:25.860and she responded and she said okay i i i you know i've trusted a lot of what you said i'm having a
00:53:32.980hard time digesting uh you know we've adopted walk me through this yeah she said where are people
00:53:39.160saying moral obligation and i shared an article from ross moore and i shared an article i think
00:53:43.920from first things where they literally said moral obligation to adopt and and then um you know we
00:53:50.540talked about it and she said wow i did not know that thank you i'm going to talk with my husband
00:53:54.680about this um and then i think i'll end up actually uh doing some podcasting with them
00:53:59.480but but i think that is the better way for women to say and this is a woman you can i don't know
00:54:05.940who it is but generally it's like okay you can tell that her husband has a firm leadership role
00:54:11.040in the home right respects he's loving her she respects him she respects him in all the right
00:54:15.700ways but this this is a really good and we had people in our church even who saw the tweet and
00:54:19.980they said one guy in fact said to me he said yeah it kind of rubbed me the wrong way i i kind of
00:54:25.040could identify with some of the criticisms but i said this is this is a guy that i trust i've
00:54:30.140gotten counsel from so i'm just going to go ask him what what without importing all the false
00:54:36.620narratives yeah what what did you mean and here's some of my questions and then afterward it usually
00:54:41.360always went well yeah so i would say be that kind of particularly be that kind of lady husbands if
00:54:47.140you're leading your wives through stuff like this you know you always have to guard like you know
00:54:51.800help her think through like especially with social media and things online uh we live in an age that
00:54:57.580is outrage farming yes and so people are easily what i would say is just like brian said before
00:55:03.620about anger it's easy to manipulate your outrage is easy to manipulate yes oh i saw this this story
00:55:10.360about dead babies in israel like let's launch the nukes right and and then maybe a wise father would
00:55:15.760say like well let's wait and see if that's actually true hey yeah we're in the age of ai and video and
00:55:20.960audio manipulation like let's just give it a second let's pause and then if you waited today
00:55:24.560you were like okay false report so there was actually no reason to be outraged so i would
00:55:30.160say that's part of it, just having self-control and discipline as you're reading things online
00:55:35.200and wading through them. Dan, you look like you're about pensive about this subject matter.
00:55:41.940Oh man, I'm so satisfied to just listen to your beautiful voice.
00:55:46.260No, I mean, the thing is, I have a foundational understanding of why people are outraged,
00:55:52.000right? So this isn't necessarily like just straight confusion, but I am slightly confused
00:55:57.000Because if you just boil down your tweet to a single sentence, I think it would be – now I said a single sentence instead of multiple sentences.
00:56:08.100But that you've been told it's a moral obligation to adopt and instead you should apply wisdom.
00:56:16.000I mean that's really all that you said.
00:58:29.020Like any of the tweets that have been controversial for many of us will often have some serious people saying, I don't like the way you said that.
00:58:38.180And to those people, I would say, that's fine. I'm not telling you how you have to communicate every truth. But as somebody who does communicate truth into culture and to real people all day long, every day for years, you have to reckon with the reality that sometimes saying things in a way that's intentionally going to unsettle the reader or listener is actually a rhetorically effective and wise move.
00:59:03.660because in when you when you're dealing with you're countering narratives that are deeply
00:59:08.900ingrained in a culture like the one about it clearly the one about adoption in order to get
00:59:14.700a hearing at all sometimes you have to really unsettle people to get them to question their
00:59:19.260foundational thinking on an issue at all sometimes you really have to shake their foundations and say
00:59:24.320no no but but but think like the modesty tweets a good example the one i said
00:59:28.940don't ladies shouldn't be posting immodest pictures even to show their newborn baby0.98
00:59:34.040and and that was because i had seen a lot of christian women online that i thought were1.00
00:59:38.540otherwise like godly and respectable women all of a sudden posting here's my baby on my breast
00:59:43.340with 80 of my breast exposed but it's okay because i'm in a hospital room or i'm in a
00:59:49.080home birth center i'm in my home and i just had a baby and and and i said that knowing that a lot
00:59:54.980of people would be like, how dare you sexualize this intimate motherly moment? I was like, well,
00:59:59.920no, no, no, no. That was actually not the response though, was it? Well, lots of people did say that.
01:00:03.920Oh, they did. Yeah, they did. They said, how dare you sexualize that moment?
01:00:06.840Most of the replies were off limits because. Yeah. Don't go look at that tweet people. So
01:00:12.100this is another case where I would say people who are like, no, I agree with the core,
01:00:17.800everything you said. It just, I didn't like the way that you said it. I would say, well,
01:00:23.200Well, you know, it actually is a legitimate rhetorical move to unsettle a listener on purpose because you know how deeply ingrained the narrative is that you're combating.
01:00:33.360So you have to, like, get them to actually stop and think about the thing you're talking about.
01:00:38.360And I would just say, especially for the ladies who are upset, who do, who aren't unreasonable beyond, you know, who are like no matter what we say they're going to hate.
01:00:49.040I would just say like, okay, think about why you respect Pastor Khan. And a lot of it's going to
01:00:55.800come back to him saying hard things bluntly about situations other people aren't. And then I would
01:01:01.000say, give him the benefit of the doubt when it strikes you as, you know, wow. And know this,
01:01:08.680that like the regularly in this room or in this church, we're fallible men. We have
01:01:13.540brothers and pastors around there are absolutely times when we've said to one another dude you
01:01:19.880were off on that you're just wrong you shouldn't have said that so there are also checks and
01:01:25.220balances here where if if dan and i had genuinely been like eric was out to lunch on this he is
01:01:30.980wrong take it out we would have said it i mean the thing is i don't think the tweet was brash0.96
01:01:37.000or harsh it would have been harsh if eric had said uh god damn all of the men that put moral0.75
01:01:44.620extra biblical moral obligations on christians to adopt when it might be unwise that would have0.92
01:01:51.220been that would have been very strong that would have been strong yeah that would have been more0.53
01:01:54.580of a damn here's what i think yeah yeah maybe uh if i tweeted ever if one could imagine one could0.78
01:02:00.740think yeah i think this is what's going on though put put on your tinfoil hats for a moment0.98
01:02:04.160so there would not have been the outrage around this tweet if there weren't a certain group of
01:02:10.920men the g3 guys in particular that had drawn attention to it and i think this was definitely
01:02:15.520a strategy because i think is it really g3 macarthur phil johnson got involved etc yeah
01:02:21.640yeah yeah and but they are connected yeah masters uh seminary is connected to g3 so
01:02:27.140in some way and i don't know the inner workings of the anabaptists so
01:02:30.980here's what i think is going on and so you have men like and i hope you haven't heard of most of
01:02:38.660these guys because they're really not worth following but if you have like anthony bradley
01:02:42.980or virgil walker owen strand uh phil johnson uh greg thornburg scott anniel scott anniel
01:02:52.140Josh Buiz, all of these guys responded to Eric's tweet.
01:02:58.820And the reason why I think is actually because they're coordinating efforts in order to gain ground and to see a movement that is possibly growing.
01:03:20.960And the way they did it, though, is really, really concerning because we talk about them like emoting and like, I can't believe they said this.
01:03:28.540But ultimately, if you were to boil down and reduce what they're saying, I could I have verses like Proverbs says a false witness who breathes out lies and one who sows discord among brothers.
01:03:43.460I think ultimately what you see is a sin that's being cultivated, uh, like leaven within a lump
01:03:51.680of dough in this G3 leadership is a sin of false witness in order to sow discord for their own
01:03:59.580purposes. Yeah. Owen Strand bore false witness, obviously. Yes. Well, and that's what they're
01:04:04.320trying to do is by twisting words and making assumptions. Yeah. Even, uh, so this Greg
01:04:09.700thornburg guy i don't know if he's a g3 i honestly directors i think he's just a guy one of the least
01:04:15.660clear thinkers i've ever encountered yes phil johnson though quote tweeted him that's why i
01:04:20.000reference him he just goes off and says i'm going to assume eric's motivations as a kinest and then
01:04:26.720he ascribes a whole lot of racist thoughts to this tweet that essentially says hey people said that
01:04:33.780you were morally obligated to adopt and that it's something that you needed to do and it might not
01:04:39.360be wise. And all of a sudden, you know, he's got this, uh, it was like seven points, uh, in a tweet
01:04:47.040and, uh, again, by Scott annual and then Phil Johnson. Correct. Correct. And so that's why I
01:04:52.620bring it up, but ultimately this is what's happening there. And honestly, for those that
01:04:57.400are bearing false witness, may God have mercy on you. May God have mercy on you because there is
01:05:04.560nothing but judgment that awaits you, especially when you're a teacher.
01:05:09.540Yeah. It's like, how convenient is that if you have a rhetorical opponent that you need to defeat
01:05:13.620and you can just make, it's an easy two-step move, win any argument in these two steps.
01:05:18.460Dan, if you could pretend like you're arguing for some ridiculous position, like let's say that Dan
01:05:23.460is arguing that Christians should desire for their politicians to bend the knee to Christ,0.98
01:05:29.600some ridiculous position like that.0.86
01:05:32.320And then I said, as an opponent of your view,0.95
01:07:47.900And I, I hope the Lord bears good fruit in all these brothers who, who, you know, hate all of us.
01:07:54.500I hope, cause I think it would mean repentance, but I mean, you know, like, let's, let's let the fruit do the talking at the end of the day.
01:08:14.940Well, here – why don't you ask any of the people in our church who are not – they don't look Nordic if we regularly put on white hoods and burn crosses in their driveways?
01:11:42.760I just want to – for people who are listening to The King's Hall and who have not listened to it yet, the second greatest podcast on the face of the planet behind this one.