The King's Hall - March 03, 2023


Interview with Pastor Toby Sumpter

Mentioned
Why Are There So Many Passive Men In The Church? Generational Startups

Episode Stats


Length

54 minutes

Words per minute

178.68

Word count

9,675

Sentence count

531

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

27

sentences flagged

Hate speech

17

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brian here with a big announcement from New Christendom Press.
00:00:03.860 Possibly our most important book yet is now available for pre-order.
00:00:08.300 It's called The Longhouse, How Feminism Conquered the West and Made Us All Miserable.
00:00:13.400 And in it, Eric and I take you through the dark history of feminism,
00:00:17.240 what it's done to everything from politics to church life to the economy,
00:00:21.220 and what to do about it.
00:00:23.040 Pre-order it today at newchristendompress.com slash longhouse.
00:00:26.600 And as a thank you for pre-ordering, you'll get 10% off automatically.
00:00:30.900 We'll also be signing the first 1,000 copies, so pick yours up today.
00:00:35.700 This episode of the King's Hall is brought to you by Ideal Poultry and our supporters at patreon.com.
00:00:44.400 Well, welcome to this episode of the King's Hall Podcast.
00:00:47.260 I'm your host, Eric Kahn, and joined today by Mr. Pastor Brian Sauvé.
00:00:52.020 Brian?
00:00:52.820 Hey, it's good to be here. Good to be here with you, Eric.
00:00:54.960 It's always good to be here with me.
00:00:56.420 Also here with me is Pastor Toby Sumter.
00:00:59.600 Toby, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the podcast.
00:01:02.820 Absolutely.
00:01:03.460 Thanks for having me.
00:01:04.580 It's also good to be with you, Eric.
00:01:06.740 I love it.
00:01:07.860 I love it.
00:01:09.100 And you, Brian.
00:01:10.880 Thank you.
00:01:11.540 And Brian, secondarily.
00:01:13.240 Yeah.
00:01:14.420 I'm usually just an afterthought on this podcast.
00:01:17.380 When you're in the room with Eric Kahn of the Hard Men podcast.
00:01:21.520 Wow.
00:01:22.160 Yes.
00:01:22.700 What can you say?
00:01:23.640 Yeah, that's true.
00:01:24.680 What can you say?
00:01:25.680 Well, what we can say, Brian, is we're going to be talking about fatherhood.
00:01:29.520 And Toby, so we kind of want to kick things off with sort of a basic theology of fatherhood.
00:01:35.300 In our day and age, it seems like we ought to know what a father is and what a father is for.
00:01:41.040 But a lot of people actually don't know that even within the church.
00:01:44.080 So I want to ask you that.
00:01:45.700 What is fatherhood?
00:01:46.760 Where does it come from?
00:01:47.820 What is it for?
00:01:49.240 Well, massive, massive question.
00:01:51.020 but fundamentally because it's rooted in God, the nature of God himself.
00:01:55.600 I mean, it's not an accident or an afterthought that God himself reveals himself as Father.
00:02:02.880 And the fullness of, I mean, that goes back to the Old Testament.
00:02:05.640 He's Father. He's the everlasting Father.
00:02:07.800 But really comes to the fore in the revelation,
00:02:11.060 the fullness of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Incarnation.
00:02:15.360 I think of places like the baptism of Jesus,
00:02:17.220 where the Father shows up and announces his good pleasure in his Son.
00:02:23.200 We're given that, of course, those names in our baptismal formula
00:02:28.080 that Jesus gives us, the disciple of the nations,
00:02:30.160 to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
00:02:33.360 And then just in our doctrine of salvation,
00:02:36.600 the gift of the Spirit unites us to the Son such that we are sons,
00:02:41.980 and the Spirit teaches us to call God our Father,
00:02:44.940 and we're adopted into that family.
00:02:48.420 So I think it's so crucial and so significant
00:02:51.700 because it goes all the way into the heart of who God is
00:02:56.140 and there's depths of the mystery of the Trinity
00:02:58.580 that we can't possibly plumb,
00:03:00.740 but nevertheless, it's essential to his character, his being.
00:03:06.000 And as creatures made in his image, everything flows from that.
00:03:10.680 Paul says in one place that all fatherhood in creation, it comes from the fatherhood of God.
00:03:17.840 I think we can get, we can begin to unpack, you know, so what does that mean?
00:03:21.340 What does that look like?
00:03:22.280 I mean, he is creator.
00:03:24.100 Our creed begins that.
00:03:25.380 I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.
00:03:30.080 He brings into being all that exists.
00:03:33.140 Fatherhood begets.
00:03:34.680 Fatherhood makes.
00:03:35.860 Fatherhood brings into being.
00:03:37.420 Most particularly brings into being new life, new creatures, that power of procreation, the power of bringing life into the world is certainly a big part of fatherhood.
00:03:49.680 But not only is it that, but it's then the care for that creation.
00:03:53.320 It's the father, you know, makes this world and we, his created children, rebel and defy him.
00:04:02.460 And yet the father comes for his rebellious children right away.
00:04:07.040 in the garden? What have you done? Have you eaten the fruit? And then rather than, you know, I mean,
00:04:12.060 just destroying it all and starting over again or something like that, determines to save,
00:04:17.700 determines to, while there are consequences for that sin and long-term consequences in many
00:04:22.520 respects, the father remains present. While there's more distance because of sin, the father
00:04:27.540 pursues his people, gives them promises, keeps those promises, makes covenant with his people.
00:04:33.900 And you can trace that down through Old Testament history of him being the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of the judges, the God of David.
00:04:45.740 And he is, I think even just like the genealogies in the Old Testament, maybe as tedious as they sometimes seem, where it's, you know, I can't even pronounce these names, is I think a testimony to the fatherhood of God.
00:04:58.620 That God is, this is God's family line.
00:05:02.420 These are his people. We don't know who they were. We've forgotten their names. We can't even pronounce their names. And God knew them all by name. And they were his children, his people that he cared for over thousands of years. Ultimately, a record of keeping his promise that the seed of the woman would come and crush the seed of the serpent.
00:05:21.300 and so he did he was born of a virgin he is the perfect son the eternal son become a one of us
00:05:29.040 to stand for us stand in our place to bring us back to the father and to reconcile us to the
00:05:35.940 father and so i think all the you know life giver maker creator presence love diligently pursuing
00:05:44.260 patience kindness um i tell i tell my people uh you know when i whenever i have opportunity to
00:05:51.460 reference the kings i mean the book of kings if that doesn't show you the patience of god i don't
00:05:56.400 know what will um you know like and i think that's part of the point you read through kings and you're
00:06:01.680 like just nuke them god just just kill them there you know and and and god is still sending prophets
00:06:08.460 to them, still, as the scripture says, holding his hands out to them, even when he finally 0.99
00:06:13.820 does give them the great exilic spanking and, you know, sends them into, into exile, you
00:06:19.780 know, into the great, the great time out or something.
00:06:22.700 I don't know.
00:06:22.940 I don't really believe in time out, but, but they're, you know, they kicked out of the
00:06:26.260 land.
00:06:27.120 Even there, the whole point of it is for them to come to their senses, to recognize that
00:06:31.680 they've been disciplined by God.
00:06:32.840 Like, why did, what happened to you?
00:06:34.360 You got, you know, you, you were brought out of Egypt.
00:06:36.100 Like, your God is the God of all the nations.
00:06:38.660 What happened to you?
00:06:39.540 And they're like, well, we screwed up.
00:06:41.920 We rejected our Father.
00:06:43.420 We didn't worship God faithfully, so he sent us here.
00:06:46.560 So even the discipline is fatherly discipline.
00:06:49.820 And again, that's another aspect then of fatherhood.
00:06:52.680 It's a pursuit, a diligent pursuit, a presence, but it's not just a softy, wet noodle presence.
00:06:58.660 It's a firm love.
00:07:00.280 It's a sturdy love.
00:07:01.940 And it disciplines in love.
00:07:03.560 them so hebrews says that he disciplines those who are his children and that's how you know you're a
00:07:08.240 child of god because you've been disciplined by god and if you're not disciplined you really ought 0.98
00:07:12.480 to double check because you might be illegitimate you might be a bastard uh you might not be a real 0.96
00:07:17.280 son so i mean i think there's an initial sketch um i you know obviously keep going but you know 0.97
00:07:22.860 maker one who loves and cares about his people his his his creation uh his presence his persistent
00:07:31.120 determination to save and to bless, a love that disciplines and corrects, and a love that
00:07:38.480 ultimately reconciles through faithful, sacrificial service. Yeah, that's awesome.
00:07:45.820 That's a really good sketch, Toby. I appreciate that. One of the questions it makes me ask,
00:07:50.440 okay, so then you fast forward to 2023, and you look at our world, right? All the things
00:07:56.600 fathers are supposed to be, and it looks like, at least from my vantage point, it looks like
00:08:01.640 there's a pretty big void, and a void of fathers specifically. So my question to you is, do you see
00:08:07.740 that? What happens when you don't have fathers? Is that what we're seeing in our world?
00:08:12.440 Yeah, absolutely. And what happens, of course, is that because the nature of God and the nature
00:08:19.220 of the world, actually fatherhood is inescapable. The only question is whether you're going to have
00:08:24.840 faithful fathers fathers that actually reflect god the father or you're going to get satanic
00:08:31.580 tyrants um i mean that that's what you have i mean jesus says you know to the to the jews 0.55
00:08:37.340 you're of your father the devil so the the devil is you know has his own fatherhood
00:08:41.920 and they say well we're descended from abraham what are you talking about and he's you know he 0.93
00:08:46.600 says well you know but you don't you don't you don't speak the language of my father you don't
00:08:51.220 understand my words because if you, you know, there's, there's a really cool scientific studies,
00:08:57.080 you know, that I always find to be kind of cool where they, you know, they, they, they study how
00:09:00.800 like infants and like, even like, um, unborn babies and stuff can recognize the voice of
00:09:06.320 their father and the, and the voice of their mother from an early, early age. Like even when
00:09:10.620 they're in the womb and like right afterwards, you know, I don't know how they test that,
00:09:14.400 but I trust them and I believe it just because that sounds right. You know, but it's what Jesus
00:09:19.720 says like you if you if you heard if you heard me and you understood me that would prove that you we
00:09:25.420 have the same father because we grew up in the father's house and you recognize your father's
00:09:31.720 voice your father's voice it it's it hits you in the right way proves that we're not siblings
00:09:40.100 and you got a different dad and your dad's the devil so so i think we yes we are living in the
00:09:45.480 ruins of a culture that has rejected the fatherhood of God fundamentally. And then secondarily,
00:09:51.460 because we've rejected the fatherhood of God, fathers have rejected their calling to be faithful
00:09:56.960 fathers like God, the father. And, and so, but again, but I would say it's not whether, but which
00:10:02.660 it's not, you're, we still have fathers because people are still coming into the world, but 0.97
00:10:07.400 they're, they're demonic, satanic fathers. They're accusers, they're abusers, they're negligent. 0.94
00:10:12.720 They're not present. They're absent. All of the things that we're seeing around us and and it creates this world of abdication, of no responsibility, of and I think maybe maybe ultimately, fundamentally, cultures of despair. 0.60
00:10:28.040 I think it's despair that says that turns into apathy and depression.
00:10:33.620 And so we have mass suicide rates, particularly among young men and middle aged men, no hope.
00:10:41.200 And, you know, fentanyl and all the rest of the statistics, the opiate crisis, you have no hope. 0.99
00:10:47.840 You're a screw up. And then I think also you have the despair of, well, you know, screw it. 0.98
00:10:53.600 I'll do whatever I want, and I won't even care about anyone, because it doesn't matter either.
00:10:59.100 So, I mean, I think despair goes both directions.
00:11:00.900 Despair, you know, hides in a closet and just fades away, and maybe even, you know, takes his own life.
00:11:07.400 And despair just runs roughshod over anybody and everyone, just, I'm just going to get what I can get.
00:11:13.800 And then I think in the middle of that chaos, since that's not, you know, anarchy doesn't last long,
00:11:18.260 Anarchy is completely unstable. The father, you know, the, the, uh, the real, I think the real
00:11:24.580 satanic father that likes to step in is a obese, overreaching state. I just went on a little
00:11:30.820 tirade yesterday on Twitter with Josh Hawley's, uh, recent proposed legislation to, uh, ban
00:11:37.200 social media use for, you know, people under the age of 16. And there, there's a, you know,
00:11:43.520 case in point of, you know, a conservative who's a good guy. I mean, I think Josh Hawley is a,
00:11:48.180 pretty good conservative guy on so many fronts, but there he is playing the role of a dad
00:11:54.300 in the federal government. And the federal government sucks at being dad. That's not 0.98
00:12:02.560 God's assigned duty. Now, they have a fatherly duty, actually, that the Bible will describe
00:12:08.240 the civil magistrates as foster fathers and nursing mothers. But the civil magistrate is
00:12:13.520 a faithful father when it stays in its lane, when it punishes evildoers, when it punishes
00:12:18.320 criminals and praises the righteous, but doesn't try to make, you know, house rules like a
00:12:24.580 real true faithful father is supposed to be who's present.
00:12:27.360 I don't know if that's getting at what you're asking, but.
00:12:29.160 Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:12:30.380 And I think you touched on a number of things that I want to ask you about, too, which is
00:12:34.480 kind of the different ways.
00:12:35.860 The state is one, but maybe what are some other ways you can think of in which you look
00:12:40.260 out in society, maybe the media machine, whatever it is, and you say, look, this is an obvious
00:12:44.580 indicator that the culture is at war with fatherhood. Are there other areas where you
00:12:50.380 see this happening? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a big one would be government schools. The Bible
00:12:54.900 repeatedly calls fathers in particular, mothers included, but fathers are responsible for the
00:13:01.000 nurture and admonition of children, being raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. This
00:13:05.640 is in Ephesians 6. It goes back to Deuteronomy 6. All of the commands to children to honor their
00:13:11.060 father and mother implies the duty of parents to teach their children. You know, we're at the
00:13:17.020 point where, you know, everybody's sort of cheering because you've got parents going to school board
00:13:20.880 meetings, you know, reading out pornographic sex ed material or something like that, as if like,
00:13:25.460 really, that's where we are? Like, you failed by sending your kids to the state to be educated.
00:13:32.060 That was your duty. 0.98
00:13:33.360 It's your job, whether at home, whether in a co-op, whether in a faithful Christian school.
00:13:38.420 But it's your responsibility to see to it that your children grow up loving the Lord from before they can remember until they leave your house.
00:13:47.680 That's what the nurture and admonition literally is the culture and the counsel of Jesus, like the culture of Jesus, the paideia of Jesus.
00:13:56.040 That's your job to raise them in.
00:13:57.760 So I would say that's one big, huge one would be education.
00:14:01.020 We we we are the best that we're doing right now and culturally broadly is just sort of skirmishing around the edges.
00:14:08.340 But the real issue is actually like, no, it's your job to raise your children in the Lord.
00:14:12.880 And if you're sending them to a school where 40 hours a week they are required to ignore the fact that God exists and that he has spoken clearly in his word, you are failing.
00:14:23.700 You have an F. You cannot do that and pretend to be a faithful father.
00:14:28.200 You know, another major issue is, is sexual fidelity. The whole, I mean, why is the porn industry this, you know, billion, hundreds of billions of dollars industry? I don't know, maybe it's a trillion now. Well, because men feed it, because men pay for it, because men are sexually unfaithful, sexually undisciplined, and they have an appetite and a demand for it.
00:14:50.800 The Bible says that when you, particularly when you commit sexual sin, whether it's virtual, electronic, or in person with, you know, hookup apps or prostitutes or whatever, you are giving your strength to women and you, and you are being reduced to a crust of bread. 0.52
00:15:11.100 you you have no energy no wisdom uh to be a faithful father when you just um you know
00:15:18.680 spill your seed everywhere that's a that's a faithless father and an irresponsible father 0.99
00:15:24.600 and then i think that just leads directly to all kinds of sexual promiscuity um where you have you 0.99
00:15:30.600 know multiple children from multiple moms you've got broken families you've got adultery uh you've
00:15:35.980 got divorce, uh, and all these, all these other cultural curses. I mean, the, I mean, the statistics
00:15:41.880 are, you know, off the wall of, you know, intact families and children that grow up with both their
00:15:46.300 biological mom and their biological dad. And I think, you know, that's another indicator though,
00:15:51.400 sexual promiscuity, sexual, uh, faithlessness is fundamentally a failure of fatherhood to
00:15:57.180 recognize the potency of the marriage bed. And, and particularly that's the power of fatherhood
00:16:03.620 is both bringing that life into existence and then cultivating that life, loving that life,
00:16:09.580 nurturing that life, disciplining that life so that it in turn is a potent life-giving force
00:16:16.440 in the world in the next generation. There's a line in, I think it's a Joe Rigney book,
00:16:22.740 The Things of Earth, where he's talking about his own son and how his son was holding his arms up to
00:16:31.600 him one morning, as young, very young, maybe three or four, and I think he said something
00:16:36.220 like, my son has his arms out to me, but he's actually reaching for God, because it's supposed
00:16:43.040 to train him, the affection, the being received, the my father cherishes, protects me, he takes
00:16:50.180 me in his arms, he's for me, he's my father.
00:16:53.560 That's a design feature, that approval and that reception is supposed, like you mentioned
00:16:59.980 in the baptism of Jesus is supposed to train us for the fatherhood of God. And so when you take
00:17:07.180 that away, when you sever that at the root, you get in and you say no fathers or dysfunctional
00:17:13.300 fathers, tyrant fathers, the state as father, any of those abdicating passive fathers, it seems like
00:17:21.320 there is a straight line. And I hadn't thought about it quite in these terms until you were
00:17:25.240 talking about sexual sin, there has to be a straight line between men who will go to a
00:17:32.060 thousand hookers, basically, and the bed of a thousand women to try and find the approval or
00:17:40.040 the satisfaction that maybe there's a straight line there to your father should have given you 0.99
00:17:47.520 that approval and taught you how to be a self-controlled man and handle women. And I'd
00:17:52.280 never connected that to the porn industry before, but I think you're right. Absolutely. You know,
00:17:56.080 I think, uh, uh, Ben Merkel gave a talk a year or two ago, uh, somewhere, um, that where he,
00:18:02.660 he said is made the really striking point. Like if it was necessary, if it was good and right
00:18:10.520 for God, the father to proclaim his pleasure over his perfect son, I mean, perfect son,
00:18:18.100 perfect father, no tension, no strength, you know, like the perfect love and perfect approval.
00:18:24.740 If it was necessary and good for him to proclaim publicly to Jesus, his approval, and that being a
00:18:31.060 really strategic preparation for him then to go right into the wilderness and be tempted by the
00:18:35.040 devil. I mean, you know, remember the temptation is if you are really the son of God. Oh yeah.
00:18:41.500 If God is really your father, do this. It's all hinged on the fatherhood of God.
00:18:47.740 and Jesus' acceptance as the Son.
00:18:50.760 And it was necessary, it was a perfect part of God's perfect plan
00:18:54.340 that God was going to show up, the Father was going to show up at the baptism
00:18:56.960 and proclaim that pleasure over his Son.
00:18:59.380 If it's necessary then in that perfect situation,
00:19:02.240 how much more so is it necessary and needed in all the rest of our families
00:19:06.060 where none of us are perfect, where we need that.
00:19:09.540 The other thing that reminds me of, Brian, is one of the places
00:19:14.080 where that same kind of dynamic that Joe is describing of, you know, the hands up and learning
00:19:20.020 and seeing through the father, the father. I think God really kind of pressed that on me when
00:19:26.340 we had a foster son for a year, a number of years ago, a baby. Got him from the hospital two days
00:19:33.580 old and stayed with us for almost a full year before he was adopted by an aunt and uncle. And
00:19:39.660 And it was this really striking thing to have this baby in your home that you're just pouring yourself out for like this, you know, your own son.
00:19:47.640 And a few months into it, we were relatively certain that he was going to be adopted by his aunt and uncle.
00:19:52.580 So you're sort of kind of mentally preparing for that.
00:19:54.780 But you don't get to, you know, go half-hearted.
00:19:58.220 Like he's your baby.
00:19:58.760 You have to take care of him.
00:20:00.040 And then as he went and my wife took him down to his family where he was adopted in another state, you know, just all the mixed emotions.
00:20:09.660 and feelings and realizing too, that like, he's never going to remember us. Like he won't remember
00:20:15.840 our, you know, those 11 months that we've spent with him. But it, the, the, the, the verse that
00:20:23.000 kind of stuck in my head, um, was from Psalm 22, where David says that to the Lord, you taught me
00:20:29.840 to trust at my mother's breast. Um, and, and I, and I, and I realized, um, in all that, like just
00:20:38.500 the huge gift it was to teach this little boy from, you know, two days old where he was abandoned
00:20:45.100 by his biological mother in a hospital to his adoption by a really loving and Christian family
00:20:50.620 11 months later. There was 11 months there where it was our assignment to show him in every way
00:20:57.240 possible that he has a faithful and loving father. It's powerful. He was learning to trust
00:21:03.160 at his mother's breast.
00:21:05.760 He was learning from infancy
00:21:08.260 that there's a good father overall.
00:21:10.340 And despite the fact that his biological father
00:21:12.260 had abandoned him,
00:21:14.020 God the Father would never abandon him.
00:21:17.760 And you do that just, you know,
00:21:20.060 and he's crying in the night
00:21:21.820 and you pick him up and you comfort him.
00:21:23.400 He's got a dirty diaper and he needs to change.
00:21:25.360 You laugh with him, you talk to him.
00:21:27.060 What you're communicating and all that really tiny,
00:21:30.420 all those millions of little intangibles
00:21:32.060 is that you have a father and even though you may not remember my face uh you will always know his
00:21:39.800 face in 2023 indigo sundries became one of our sponsors at the time their business was little
00:21:52.440 more than a side hobby generating a couple hundred dollars a month but because of their
00:21:56.240 partnership with us and because all of you chose to support them they've grown enough to make it
00:22:00.100 their full-time livelihood. This is what happens when Christians support Christians. Our communities 0.91
00:22:04.200 are strengthened and faithful businesses thrive. So if you're a Christian business owner who wants 1.00
00:22:08.360 to reach thousands of like-minded people and grow your company, we'd love to partner with you.
00:22:12.960 Email us at advertising at newchristendompress.com.
00:22:21.680 Gentlemen, I think we all agree that there are few foods in the world as nutritious and delicious
00:22:26.780 as some good eggs.
00:22:28.220 You know, Brian, that's right.
00:22:29.100 That's why I slunk at least 18 raw eggs a day.
00:22:32.660 But with egg prices so high,
00:22:34.280 one way to get great eggs at a good price
00:22:36.260 is to invest in raising your own chickens.
00:22:38.840 That's very true, Eric.
00:22:39.660 Check out Ideal Poultry at idealpoultry.com
00:22:43.460 if you want to place an order for some backyard chickens,
00:22:46.920 ducks, or any other poultry,
00:22:48.940 like pheasants or chuckers.
00:22:50.460 I mean, come on, turkeys.
00:22:52.080 They breed the best birds in the U.S.
00:22:54.120 and are a lovely Christian, family-owned, and operated business.
00:22:57.880 That's right.
00:22:58.400 Visit Ideal Poultry at IdealPoultry.com for all your backyard poultry needs.
00:23:08.580 Yeah, no, it's really powerful.
00:23:10.460 And one of the questions it brings up for me is, so we minister to a lot of men.
00:23:15.380 We talk to a lot of guys who don't have fathers.
00:23:18.440 And there's talk of father wounds and stuff like this.
00:23:21.100 i'm just curious toby like one of the things that that we try to do is avoid the black pill route
00:23:26.660 right at all costs right you see all these guys who are like the legal systems against me there's
00:23:31.600 no point you know you you name it they're ready to just say you know take the andrew tate route
00:23:36.540 you know impregnate 12 different women and you know get into running actually running pornography
00:23:42.040 just this dark dark routes so how do you how do you counsel a guy maybe he doesn't have a dad
00:23:47.860 maybe he's got a poor father in one part of the spectrum how do you counsel men in that situation
00:23:54.620 it really does it dovetails exactly with that the point i was making with our with our foster son
00:23:59.920 which is that the fact of the matter is is none of us have had perfect fathers number one there
00:24:05.780 are no perfect fathers there are no perfect families and and what any one of us imperfect
00:24:11.500 fathers is trying to do is exactly what joe rigney says that you referenced brian is that
00:24:15.900 is as much as we possibly can at every moment saying, actually the hole in your heart,
00:24:22.840 the hunger you have, um, is not, it's actually not for me. Like I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm called
00:24:30.140 by God to tell you and to show you, but I'm going to be a really faint picture of, of the father
00:24:37.100 you long for. Yeah. And the father you long for is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:24:42.840 That's the answer for every one of us.
00:24:44.840 I mean, it's not like any, Jesus didn't come for the healthy.
00:24:50.060 Jesus didn't come for the together.
00:24:52.100 Jesus didn't come for the people who had perfect dads because then he would have come for nobody.
00:24:57.400 He came for this world, and this world is a wreck.
00:25:01.020 And so, and he came to bring us to his father.
00:25:05.420 He is the way, the truth, and the life.
00:25:08.080 He is the one who brings us to his father.
00:25:09.800 that's that's why i think this the gospel is so potent for this fatherless generation we live in
00:25:16.540 it's so potent because that's the gospel is yes you need a father and you can't find him here on
00:25:23.000 this earth if you if you look for him here in the you know capital f father you will be continually
00:25:30.140 disappointed and you'll either be tempted to commit suicide or you know black pill and become 0.99
00:25:35.700 an abuser and a satanic father. But if you recognize that Adam was the first, he was the 0.99
00:25:41.460 head of our race. He's the patriarch and he ruined it. And we're all ruined in him. And so that's why
00:25:49.960 God sent a new Adam in his son, Jesus, so that we might come to the father. The other thing though, 0.82
00:25:55.960 I also like to point out is that to men who don't have fathers and to men who have had failed
00:26:01.080 fathers and so on and so forth, is this is part of the glory of the church and the covenant
00:26:07.100 family.
00:26:08.760 One place Jesus says that anyone who has given up father, mother, sister, brother, lands,
00:26:15.080 riches for my sake and for the sake of the kingdom will receive fathers, mothers, siblings,
00:26:22.380 lands with persecutions in this life and in the life to come.
00:26:28.160 And I don't think he necessarily, I mean, I think part of it is, I think he does put the solitary in families as, as Psalm 68 says.
00:26:36.440 And sometimes that means, you know, you left, you know, unbelieving pagan parents and you, you became a Christian.
00:26:42.680 And then over time you were married and you'd begin building your own biological family.
00:26:47.860 But I also think part of what it's talking, Jesus is talking about there is the fathers and mothers that you inherit in the covenant people.
00:26:56.200 Sometimes people say, well, you're so blessed and so lucky because, you know, your dad was a Christian and your grandpa was a Christian.
00:27:02.980 And, you know, well, you know, I didn't have that.
00:27:05.060 You know, my dad abandoned my mom when I was five and my mom was on drugs.
00:27:09.880 And, you know, here I am and I'm trying to figure it out.
00:27:12.480 I say, well, first of all, you're not that special.
00:27:16.740 We're all sinners and we all have our wrecks.
00:27:19.060 And then number two, welcome to the family of God, where you now have fathers and grandfathers
00:27:25.800 and great grandfathers, right?
00:27:28.520 You have a legacy.
00:27:30.100 You do.
00:27:31.660 You've been brought into the family.
00:27:33.520 If God is your father, then these older brothers, they're your older brothers.
00:27:37.720 These men, they're your fathers.
00:27:40.080 Don't talk like you're still an orphan.
00:27:42.160 Yeah, you're not.
00:27:43.500 You're not an orphan.
00:27:44.560 The Apostle Paul says you were an orphan when you were outside.
00:27:47.960 but if you've come in, you're no longer aliens and orphans. You're now part of the household
00:27:52.520 and family of God. You now have fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers in the
00:27:57.060 faith. Welcome to the family. Follow their example. Follow your elders' example. Find a good church
00:28:02.780 where you can follow the example and the outcome of life of your pastors and elders. Those are
00:28:07.640 your fathers. That's part of the welcome of the gospel, too. I think as well, it's such a charge
00:28:13.120 to the church, to the local church, because left to our own devices, we tend to hang out with those
00:28:20.240 people who are easy for us. We like them. They like the things we like. But then you get into
00:28:25.180 the local church where we're this family of families, this household of households.
00:28:29.840 And the Lord is in the business of bringing in orphans and these orphaned sons and daughters
00:28:35.500 who had no earthly father. And they're maybe sometimes socially awkward, didn't learn how
00:28:40.940 to do things the right way, don't know their left hand from their right hand. And it's such a,
00:28:46.360 you know, just that first John, love one another, go and love the people in the church that are hard,
00:28:52.300 go bring them in, invite them over for Thanksgiving, bring them into your table,
00:28:56.460 because that is where that is going to be the answer to this problem in that generational
00:29:02.260 disruption, where now that person can come in, they can have many fathers and mothers, and they
00:29:09.360 can have church fathers and they can have brothers and, and, and then their legacy can be different
00:29:14.960 that the, the, the, the sin that was visited for three and four generations can be cut off and they
00:29:22.600 can learn, they can learn fatherhood and they can learn the gospel and they can have a thousand
00:29:28.760 generation difference that might start with some of us opening our tables to people that are hard
00:29:36.300 in the church to people that are, you know, awkward and difficult and don't know how to
00:29:43.340 have a conversation. And, you know, I think we've seen that a lot in the, in the, in just course of
00:29:49.560 normal local church ministry, you know, young men coming in and they just, they don't know their
00:29:55.000 left hand from their right hand. You start talking to them like, I didn't have a dad. I didn't,
00:29:58.780 my dad didn't care about us. You don't even know how to have a conversation. Okay. Come,
00:30:02.900 Come hang out with us.
00:30:04.500 We'll be your friend.
00:30:06.460 And the world just – it's such a shining glory against the backdrop of the world that just doesn't care about that person. 0.85
00:30:15.800 And I think recognizing, too, that – I mean, to our shame, I think part of the evidence of the failure of the local church has been the LGBT community. 0.61
00:30:28.240 We say LGBT community. And I mean, you know, you read Rosaria Butterfield's, you know, biography and testimony of coming out of the lesbian community. Like she is pretty honest. She's like, actually, that was where I found a lot of my community.
00:30:43.880 Yeah. We actually cared for each other compared to just sort of your bland secularism. There was more community there. And but but interestingly, strikingly, it was this reformed pastor that invited her for dinner and they won. Yeah, it was it was a sweeter fellowship. And I think that's that's the answer. But I think that's why a bunch of kids and young people are getting drawn into even the sort of the black pill stuff you're talking about earlier.
00:31:07.840 there's a kind of community angst. I mean, it's just, I mean, there's, there's a reason why 0.90
00:31:11.500 when, when faithful fatherhood is not celebrated and honored, men become thugs.
00:31:19.740 Fatherhood doesn't go away. It just turns satanic and dark. And, uh, and that's why you have gangs
00:31:25.420 and that's, you know, that's why you have Antifa. That's why, you know, that's why you have,
00:31:30.960 you know, black pill communities. It's, it's, it's, it's an attempt at community and brotherhood 1.00
00:31:36.680 and looking for fatherly affirmation and affection.
00:31:41.600 But I think you're absolutely right.
00:31:43.720 The church, I mean, because we have the forgiveness of our sins,
00:31:46.620 because we actually have the Holy Spirit,
00:31:48.660 because we actually know the Father who made us,
00:31:52.120 we have the resources in community.
00:31:54.800 It's messy, it's challenging, it's difficult, it'll be awkward,
00:31:59.480 but we actually have the resources for that real community,
00:32:03.380 what these men are looking for.
00:32:04.920 Yeah, one of the things you talked about, Toby, on your blog, I think, a couple years ago, so this is like 2020, we saw a big thing happening, obviously, in the culture and the church.
00:32:15.960 There was a lot of tyranny, but you connected it to fatherhood.
00:32:20.520 And I think something Doug even said was, like, when John MacArthur stepped up and said, no, we're going to resist this, I think Doug either said he was the father or the grandfather that we're all kind of looking to.
00:32:31.160 So one of the things that seems is tied to this is church fathers and the resistance to tyranny.
00:32:37.240 So I wonder if you might just connect those dots for me.
00:32:39.840 How does fatherhood connect with why we need people in the church who are not just laying down the doormat for Fauci or whoever else?
00:32:46.840 Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:47.420 Well, you know, so I think the mandate of the church, of course, is to preach the entire word of God, to preach the gospel, but to disciple the nations, teaching them everything that Jesus has commanded.
00:33:01.420 And so we have a ministry of the word and sacrament is the center of the church.
00:33:06.800 So the church's job is not to replace fathers, but we have a fatherly calling.
00:33:13.440 Paul talks about him being a father to Timothy.
00:33:16.840 He tells the Corinthians, you have a lot of teachers, but you need some fathers.
00:33:20.800 You don't have any fathers in there.
00:33:22.040 And I think what he's getting at there is not merely the information, but also living it out and discipling men in the trenches.
00:33:30.320 This is what the word means, and it doesn't mean that. 0.92
00:33:32.780 No, you can't go to prostitutes anymore. 0.97
00:33:36.160 No, you can't sleep with your stepmom. 0.98
00:33:40.000 No, you can't get drunk at the Lord's Supper.
00:33:42.240 I mean, Corinth was a very special place, which should give all pastors a lot of hope.
00:33:46.400 It does.
00:33:47.080 It's like, thank you, Lord, for this example.
00:33:49.480 We're not the only ones.
00:33:51.120 That's right.
00:33:52.120 But that teaching ministry is potent.
00:33:54.440 That discipleship ministry, that's a fatherly calling.
00:33:58.620 and um and and again paul is this great example of this apostolic father who uh was both so loving
00:34:06.780 so patient took so much for the people that he loved they you know they would complain about him
00:34:13.200 they would accuse him of false things all kinds of that and and he would just come back with his
00:34:18.280 just a loving fatherly no you're wrong you need to stop that nope don't do that hey don't make
00:34:24.440 me show up in person. Um, and if I do, you know, I'll come back there. I will. Yeah. He, um, you
00:34:33.020 know, but it's, it's a, it's a great example where it's both, it's both very firm, um, and yet so
00:34:39.380 full of affection. Um, uh, and that's a really hard balance for, I mean, you know, everybody to,
00:34:47.480 to, to hit. Um, but, but it's firm. I'm not budging and I, and I'm not budging because I love
00:34:54.040 you. You must stop this because I love you. You need to do this instead because I love you. You're
00:35:00.980 my people. That's, that's just a, it's a glorious, you know, the, I always tell my, my preaching
00:35:05.620 students that second Corinthians, I think of all Paul's letters, I think second Corinthians is the
00:35:10.220 one that most amazes me. Um, because Paul's been basically accused of being really, really harsh,
00:35:17.580 not a real apostle. You know, all he does is show up and rebuke people, um, really, really harshly
00:35:22.780 and then ask them for money. And then, and then second Corinthians is Paul basically saying, no,
00:35:27.660 I am an apostle and I'm not sorry for rebuking you. And where's that check?
00:35:34.520 That's, that's second Corinthians. And, and I don't, I am not mature enough or holy enough
00:35:39.640 or godly enough to write that letter. I can't, I can't preach that sermon. Um, but I hope to one
00:35:46.180 day, uh, you know, if, if need be. Um, but, but the point being is, you know, and he's, and he's
00:35:51.540 so, you know, he knows he's walking this knife's edge where he's, um, I'm, I don't want your money.
00:35:56.280 I want your heart, but I know if you don't, if I don't ask you for the money, then I won't be
00:35:59.880 asking you for your heart. Yeah. I don't seek the gift. I seek your benefit. Exactly. So give the
00:36:06.040 gift for your benefit. Exactly. So, I mean, it's, it's just this masterful, um, pastoral fatherly
00:36:14.160 model that I think all of us could learn from, but I think, you know, to your point, Eric, I think
00:36:19.280 we have not had those kind of fathers. We have not had Pauline fathers in the church. I think
00:36:25.160 at best, we've had a lot of teachers maybe in places where they've been, you know, they can
00:36:30.900 tell us how to parse the Greek and the Hebrew and the history of this doctrine at, you know,
00:36:35.520 sort of at best, I think, but although frequently it's way worse than that, it's really, we've had
00:36:41.040 a lot of really bad teachers as well. But I think, you know, if we look at maybe conservative
00:36:45.900 of reformed them, we can say, okay, in the broadly reformed evangelical churches, we've
00:36:51.980 had some, you know, pretty decent teaching, but we've had very few fathers who, and I
00:36:57.360 think what frequently, the difference there is, and I think I would make this the difference
00:37:01.760 between good seminary professors and pastors is seminary professors, they give you the
00:37:08.120 ammo that you need, and that's good teaching.
00:37:11.980 you get good ammo and good guns, but pastors and fathers are the ones that actually pull out the 0.89
00:37:16.520 guns and shoot and tell you where to shoot. And what happens in crises, like we saw in 2020 is
00:37:23.480 the engineers don't ever really want to fire the guns. Yeah. They there's, it's never quite the
00:37:29.620 right moment for them. And so I think that's what happened with mask mandates and social distancing
00:37:35.420 and lockdowns and so forth was it proved demonstrated that basically at best we have a
00:37:41.340 church of a bunch of engineers who are probably, you know, relatively doctrinally sound, but don't
00:37:48.140 have the backbone to actually fight. Because if you actually bring, you know, if you actually get
00:37:53.440 out the gun and start shooting, you're going to get shot at. And I think that's a, that is a
00:37:58.460 failure of nerve, failure of courage. I'm sympathetic in many respects because I'm like
00:38:03.760 the, like just the next guy, I'd rather have a peaceful evening at home and not a bunch of people
00:38:08.400 throwing rocks at me and, you know, slandering me and calling me names or, you know, threatening my
00:38:12.840 life. But I think that, again, I would go back to Paul's example, willing to risk his life,
00:38:18.700 willing to risk everything, willing to risk his reputation because he was that kind of father.
00:38:23.820 I think that kind of pastoral fatherhood in the first place raises families and fathers and
00:38:32.000 families that have backbones. And that's what we need to begin culturally while calling magistrates
00:38:38.820 to also have backbones. But I think we're not going to probably see really, really significant
00:38:43.300 change in the public square until we've had a generation of families that have been faithful
00:38:50.040 with fathers who practice this kind of loving backbone every day. They have learned this kind
00:38:57.360 of fatherhood, this kind of apostolic fatherhood from their pastors and elders, where they
00:39:01.900 imitate that, as Paul says to do, imitate me as I imitate the Lord Jesus.
00:39:06.580 It's firm and affectionate.
00:39:08.580 It knows the word of God.
00:39:09.660 It knows the standards.
00:39:10.520 And it says, no, we're not budging on that.
00:39:12.620 And I love you.
00:39:14.400 It's a, it's a, it's a gracious firmness.
00:39:17.040 It's a smiling steel backbone.
00:39:20.080 It's not harsh.
00:39:21.140 It's not angsty.
00:39:22.300 It's not bitter.
00:39:23.340 It's not resentful.
00:39:24.180 Um, but we need to have that, um, uh, demonstrated modeled in the church by pastors and elders.
00:39:31.060 And, uh, and it's, and it's in every direction.
00:39:33.560 I mean, you mentioned the status thing and you mentioned, you know, the COVID stuff.
00:39:35.960 And I think that's one place where you, you do it, but I think another, it needs to be
00:39:39.480 practiced just in basic church discipline as well, where, you know, no, you can't look
00:39:43.820 at porn.
00:39:44.360 No, no, you, you can't, um, you can't divorce your wife. 0.85
00:39:47.180 No, um, you can't yell at your wife.
00:39:49.720 Um, no, you can't yell at your kids.
00:39:51.360 You know, it's firm and affectionate.
00:39:55.060 I know you've never seen this modeled, but you must not treat your children this way.
00:39:59.660 So it's got to be firm and gracious in every direction, just like Paul was.
00:40:04.340 I think this is our last real question for you.
00:40:07.680 It's kind of a personal one, but I know we've definitely looked to you here in Utah, behind you in ministry.
00:40:15.360 You're some years ahead of us.
00:40:16.880 more miles on, on, on the soles of your shoes faced more things than we have. And so I feel
00:40:22.440 like there's been a couple of times when we've run into a wall and said, what do we do? We look
00:40:26.500 around and we say, let's, let's ask, uh, pastor Toby, what he thinks we should do. So that's
00:40:31.400 dangerous. Well, it's been helpful. We, we, we are thankful, uh, to, to have your input and
00:40:38.820 willingness to take the call and, uh, give us your thoughts in those, those situations. And it just
00:40:44.720 made me think to ask, what kind of fathers have you had? Have you had good examples? I mean,
00:40:52.520 your own father in the church that you've been able to look at and kind of do the same thing
00:40:57.020 and say, okay, this is how you do that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, my own father is a pastor,
00:41:03.960 and he came to the Lord in college. And so I was blessed to grow up in a Christian home,
00:41:09.360 reformed presbyterian background my dad is it was present my dad was faithful my dad has been
00:41:16.780 faithful to my mom raised i'm the oldest of six and so just absolutely one of the most potent
00:41:24.920 things in my life has been watching my dad and but i would say my dad came to the lord in college
00:41:31.640 And so my, my grandpa, my, uh, my papa, uh, my, my, my dad's dad certainly wasn't.
00:41:38.480 And he, he may, he may be in heaven.
00:41:41.960 He, he, we're not, we're not sure.
00:41:43.980 Um, he, um, he, he professed a kind of faith, um, more and more towards the end of his life,
00:41:49.960 but was never a church going sort.
00:41:52.540 And, uh, um, so we're trusting the Lord, but, you know, but he didn't even know his dad.
00:41:59.580 So my great-grandpa died, I think, or deserted, I think, when my grandpa was a little kid.
00:42:07.640 He was raised by his aunt and then enlisted in the Marines at 14, which is not legal.
00:42:16.260 It's not legal. 0.96
00:42:17.000 That's not a thing you're supposed to do.
00:42:19.260 It's very manly, but...
00:42:20.600 Yeah, right.
00:42:21.580 But got a relative to lie for him that he was 17.
00:42:25.080 and um and so he he went to the um to the pacific front in world war ii like i know 14 year olds
00:42:33.420 yeah this is that's he that's not where they belong he yeah well he used to like to tell me
00:42:39.240 that he was a rather mature 14 year old i don't know how much of this okay embellishment but he
00:42:43.840 said he was already shaving by the time he was enlisted so and i i don't think i was shaving at
00:42:49.120 14 yet but anyways he uh but um but definitely one of these like you know find your own way
00:42:56.120 pull yourself up by your own bootstraps type guy um you know married my my grandma and then you
00:43:01.800 know worked his butt off in the oil industry um for many many years was faithful to my grandma
00:43:07.780 raised four boys but then but but i think there were some pretty sharp edges um that my dad grew
00:43:14.800 up with and hard things. So it was better than what my papa grew up with, but it was still not
00:43:21.100 good. And so my dad coming to the Lord, God was just faithful working in on that. But I think
00:43:28.380 I'm the kind of hard-headed, difficult person that the Lord knew that I needed many fathers.
00:43:36.800 And so in addition to my own biological father, and I looked to my grandpa, even though he wasn't
00:43:42.460 as much of a spiritual father, uh, he certainly had some things really, really right. He was a
00:43:49.700 very, very hard worker. He was faithful, uh, and kind and generous to his wife and to all his
00:43:55.620 grandkids. Um, if, if fatherhood, you know, uh, James says that, um, every good and perfect gift
00:44:01.840 comes down from the father of lights. Um, one of the marks of fatherhood is generosity and gift
00:44:07.620 giving because the father has given us his son and the father has given us the spirit and the
00:44:12.880 father gives us light and life. Um, and my grandpa modeled that kind of faithful fatherhood in his
00:44:18.840 generosity, his kindness, his care, calling his grandkids, you know, every single one of his
00:44:23.840 grandkids for years until he died, um, regularly calling them, how are you doing? What's going on?
00:44:29.040 Wanted to know about us. Um, but in it, but I was, you know, I'm the kind of hardheaded,
00:44:34.340 difficult son that needed more fathers. And so I've said this for years, actually, that when I
00:44:38.780 came out to New St. Andrews College in 1998 as a 17-year-old, I knew the Lord, I loved the Lord,
00:44:44.340 but I was definitely, I had a lot of immaturities, confusions, my own, you know, rebellious
00:44:52.180 streaks. And I think the Lord plopped me down in this community in particular, in Moscow, Idaho,
00:44:57.360 and in his grace gave me about, I don't know, three, four, five more dads. And the kind of
00:45:03.000 thing you're describing earlier, Brian, about a church and a covenant community is exactly what
00:45:07.080 I got. And some of it was primarily in teaching. Some of it was actually pulling me aside at
00:45:14.120 various points and saying, stop it. Yes. And, oh, okay. What a gift. And, and, and, and really,
00:45:23.640 I mean, sometimes it's just like a, I think obviously there are harsh dads that maybe are
00:45:29.220 just badgering but i think there are also lots of times there's really good natured dads who don't
00:45:33.780 want to be the badger don't want to be the jerk and so then they don't correct but if but if you 0.96
00:45:38.120 just sometimes just pull it you know sit somebody down and just say you know i think you should 0.98
00:45:42.320 stop doing that they're like oh okay i mean sometimes it might blow up but i but i think
00:45:50.380 sometimes there's actually far more openness to teaching and correction i uh my poor my poor dad
00:45:56.260 I went to, I graduated high school in spring of 98 and went and worked in construction in Alaska for a month or two in that summer before I came out here and went up there and was hanging out with some old friends.
00:46:11.020 I actually, I'm from Alaska, lived up there for a few years as a kid and stayed with some friends.
00:46:15.760 And, you know, one day, you know, a bunch of teenage high school guys think it's a great idea.
00:46:20.680 Let's all go out and get our ears pierced.
00:46:22.620 and uh and so i you know i show up back in maryland where my family is with my ears pierced
00:46:29.340 and both of them i don't know you know that was a thing i guess i don't know probably wasn't a
00:46:33.600 thing and my dad didn't say anything maybe just like oh okay but like about a week or two in he
00:46:40.180 just sat me down and said son you know i really tried to be okay with it but it really bothers me
00:46:47.460 that you've got your ears pierced.
00:46:50.880 And, uh, I just wanted to ask you to consider taking him out.
00:46:56.680 And, uh, you know, and it was, it was gracious, kind.
00:47:02.880 He didn't even really command me to, although I think he could have, if he wanted to, you
00:47:07.320 know, he just said it, it, it really bothers me.
00:47:10.060 Uh, I feel like it reflects on me as a pastor and, uh, as you're my son and, and I, I just
00:47:16.280 would really prefer it if you didn't have them. And, uh, would you consider that? And it was
00:47:19.980 actually, uh, it wasn't even really that big of a deal to me. I, I mean, I, um, and I, I said,
00:47:26.640 sure. You know, of course now my own kids just laugh and how all it, you know, how idiotic I was 0.99
00:47:33.100 and, you know, make fun of me, but that's, um, but I think that, you know, there was a lot of 0.91
00:47:37.800 that both, you know, that was from my own biological dad, but then I got out here and
00:47:40.680 i would say the first probably uh 14 16 months of my time here um i was growing a lot in certain
00:47:47.560 respects but there was a kind of lag time in wisdom and um yeah and and uh and there was a
00:47:54.120 lot of maturities and some old you know uh habits and things that needed to get addressed and the
00:47:58.940 men here did that for me um you know i like to tell the nsa kids sometimes that um that there
00:48:05.500 some of the rules in the code of conduct are thanks to me they needed that when i got here
00:48:13.140 yeah they they hadn't they hadn't had those rules yet and so there i was but but no it was uh you
00:48:18.160 know but they absolutely the men here and and i think you know that's one of the reasons and you
00:48:22.260 know years later i think it was uh you know 2007 or something like that you know probably almost
00:48:28.240 10 years later when some of the elders here started talking to me about coming back to
00:48:32.840 Moscow to be a pastor. One of the things I, I said to them, I said to my wife is like, you know,
00:48:38.100 this is utterly ridiculous. You know, they know everything. Yeah. Like they know where all my, 0.94
00:48:45.960 all the bones are buried and where all the corpses are. Like they walked me out of it all.
00:48:51.260 And so, you know, if they think this is a good idea, you know, I, um, I, I, I love and honor
00:48:58.520 them far too much not to take this seriously. And so it's, and it's just, it's hilarious. And
00:49:05.420 people that have been here for a long time know it because they remember me and, and, uh, and like
00:49:10.020 to remind me occasionally of, you know, what it was like when I first got out here as a 17 year
00:49:14.120 old. Um, thankfully cell phones were not a thing yet. And so the pictures of, uh, and, you know,
00:49:20.640 records of me and social media wasn't a thing yet. That's all very minimal. I think God was very kind
00:49:25.260 to me and everyone, um, there's not a lot of records of it. So, but yes, God was so faithful.
00:49:31.440 He was a faithful father to me through the men here, um, being patient with me, just a lot of
00:49:36.940 patience, kindness, but also some key correctives and not being pushovers. I mean, I was, you know,
00:49:42.020 I was disciplined, uh, in, in key moments, both at the college and through the pastors. And, um,
00:49:49.560 and it was, it was, God was so faithful to me through them. And, uh, but it was clear that
00:49:54.160 they loved me, even when I was being a fathead, and they loved me enough to tell me, and it has
00:50:03.240 borne so much fruit in my life. Man, that's so encouraging, just the progression
00:50:10.220 generationally, to see the Lord's faithfulness, covenant-keeping grace. I think the temptation
00:50:16.180 a lot of the time for Christians, particularly young guys, we start reading books, we start
00:50:23.520 learning a few doctrines our dad didn't know. And pretty soon we're despising the upstream 0.97
00:50:30.200 generations and failing to see just like, okay, you're standing on a few generations of inheritance
00:50:37.920 and how dare you look back and say, wow, they really should have read this book that I've read.
00:50:44.380 You're like, well, his dad abandoned him. So, I mean, yeah, that's really encouraging to hear.
00:50:51.600 Thanks for being generous with your time coming on today, Pastor Toby.
00:50:56.140 We'd love to just hear any ways that our listeners can catch what you guys are doing at Fight, Laugh, Feast.
00:51:02.320 I know you're putting on what looks like an awesome conference coming up at the Ark Encounter.
00:51:06.980 Here may be where people can catch up with you and find out what you guys are doing.
00:51:11.080 Yeah, thank you very much.
00:51:13.080 So part of a podcast called CrossPolitik.
00:51:16.140 You can find us at CrossPolitik.com or all the podcast feeds.
00:51:20.280 And then we've started a network of podcasts called the Fight, Laugh, Feast Network, fightlaughfeast.com.
00:51:27.020 And as part of that, yeah, we do an annual conference at least.
00:51:30.320 Sometimes we do more.
00:51:31.280 But this year's annual conference is in October 11th to the 14th.
00:51:35.820 And it will be at the Ark Encounter in Kentucky.
00:51:38.580 We have Ken Ham speaking and Dr. Gordon Wilson.
00:51:41.860 And the theme this year is the politics of six-day creation.
00:51:45.080 So we focus on the intersection between what the Bible teaches and public square policy and politics and calling the church back to faithfulness there.
00:51:55.640 Some of the things we talked about today.
00:51:57.580 But I think the ramifications for understanding Genesis 1 to 3 are enormous.
00:52:04.380 It's the seat of everything.
00:52:06.060 So, you know, what is a man? 0.98
00:52:07.040 What is a woman? 0.65
00:52:07.740 What is marriage? 1.00
00:52:08.740 What is life?
00:52:10.380 What is law?
00:52:11.720 What is justice?
00:52:13.160 All those things are massively important principles for the public square and for public policy.
00:52:19.580 And so we're hoping to explore that intersection of the importance of literal Genesis 1 to 3.
00:52:26.020 If you start going poetic or metaphorical or whatever on that and trying to insert billions of years, then why can't you reinvent what a woman is when human life begins?
00:52:37.520 All those kind of things.
00:52:38.800 So that's a big thing coming up.
00:52:41.020 Fightlifefeast.com.
00:52:41.920 You can find me on the socials, TJ Sumter on Twitter, and Toby J. Sumter is my blog,
00:52:49.240 tobyjsumter.com. I blog a couple times a week.
00:52:52.080 Excellent. Well, we'll encourage you guys. We'll drop some links to that in the description
00:52:56.240 for those of you listening on the normal podcast catchers. But thanks again, Pastor Toby,
00:53:01.680 and we hope to talk to you again sometime.
00:53:03.760 Yeah, I appreciate what you guys are doing. Keep up the good work, you guys.
00:53:05.980 Thank you. Appreciate it.
00:53:06.760 Thank you.
00:53:11.920 well in case you didn't know we have another king's hall show called the after hours and
00:53:18.800 it's available only to our patrons we have a great time in the after hours i play hype songs
00:53:23.680 which brian loves sometimes we even talk about brian's cut we talk about recent news on x and
00:53:28.120 answer listener questions overall it's a great time so i'd encourage you to head over to patreon.com
00:53:34.220 slash the king's hall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content
00:53:38.760 Thank you.