00:07:44.240Well, yeah, and I think, too, the other connection point here is it is pastors in the church, but pastors in the church are fundamentally qualified fathers.
00:08:32.820it doesn't seem like Paul is as concerned about your seminary degree as how you manage your
00:08:39.500children. Like he seems far more concerned about that. And so, I mean, this should be the foundation
00:08:48.280level of finding an elder is how does he run his house? I mean, if you look at the qualifications
00:08:57.300for elder, as you go through the qualification list, most of them have to do with how does he
00:09:03.840manage his house? How does he manage his house? So I know one of the things that we've done here
00:09:09.120at Refuge Church is that people often look at our elder team and go like, well, what seminaries did
00:09:15.920you go to? All of that. Yeah, all of that. And universally, what you'll find is we're like,
00:09:24.440yeah i i mean that's great and all uh but how do they run their household right what does their
00:09:31.720wife think about their husband you know what are the children how do they act do they respect their
00:09:36.880father that's one of the questions i was going to ask and and brian i i think this is something you
00:09:41.360guys have covered a lot in bright hearth but what would be like the fruit of a well-run household
00:09:45.640what would you know maybe it's what you see in the wife but what do you typically see if you see a
00:09:50.760guy and you say okay his households run well what does that actually look like yeah when you're when
00:09:54.420When you're looking at a household where the father is ruling well, you can tell that everybody, first of all, everybody knows what they're for and what they're supposed to be doing.0.88
00:10:04.760So the wife, who is the oiko despot, she's the manager of the house.0.88
00:10:10.040She knows what she's supposed to be doing.0.93
00:13:34.620And then you take the most leadership-oriented 5% of that 70%, and you put them in charge of all of the bureaucratic machinery of the church, all the committees, etc.
00:13:47.660And you're going to incentivize passivity to the point where I remember I was actually, I think, in junior high, and I was on a search committee for my church for a youth pastor.
00:13:58.480They wanted some representation on the search committee from youth.1.00
00:14:01.120it was I don't know I'm not saying it's a good idea children and women will rule over you yes
00:14:07.320that was our committee and I I just recall going through and interviewing like being involved in
00:14:13.700these interviews I didn't really say much but I was there for most of them and it was really
00:14:19.380interesting to think back now and re and and now note that we'd asked very little about children
00:14:27.760marriage. It was like sample sermons, tell us about youth camps you've run. And like to be
00:14:34.740the whole like dedicated youth pastor putting on a separate youth worship thing, which is what that
00:14:40.980was, is a bad idea in general. But even if it had just been a general pastoral search,
00:14:46.360the things that we were incentivizing or that we were selecting for as a model of a man,
00:14:52.880the pastor's a model of a man, was they were not ideal.
00:15:25.740But because of their partnership with us and because all of you chose to support them,
00:15:29.240they've grown enough to make it their full-time livelihood.
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00:15:50.880Well, it's weird because a lot of pastors, in my experience, especially at a lot of the bigger churches, they end up kind of being like NFL coaches.
00:15:58.720And what I mean by that is not all NFL coaches are this way, but those guys work 100 hours a week.
00:16:05.180Typically, if you last, you're really good at your job, but then you look at their family lives and it's just a minefield.
00:16:11.640Because you can't, honestly, if you're working 100 hours a week over the years, you're not going to be able to pour into your family.
00:16:18.420And so a lot of times it's like, well, we've inverted this process of, okay, Paul said
00:16:24.580if you rule well in your house, you're qualified to be a pastor.
00:16:28.060That's really not what we built the church on.
00:16:30.800So then it's not surprising that, okay, the church is not full of fathers.1.00
00:16:34.520It's full of feminists of both sexes, basically.0.99
00:16:39.620Yeah, which is technically possible.0.99
00:16:41.540Men are supposed to be feminists, too, apparently.
00:16:45.120Yeah, so the other question I want to ask here is about the sort of the historical things that are going on in the church.
00:16:52.900I mean, if you read somebody like Calvin, you look at Geneva, even early U.S. in the 1800s, you still see a lot of patriarchy.
00:17:00.540You still see a lot of father-led families and churches.0.55
00:17:03.820What do you think historically has happened that brought us to this point where we're, you know, female-dominated churches and lack of understanding or appreciation for this qualification of household rule?0.83
00:17:19.520Yeah. I mean, I think we talked about it a lot in season one. So if you haven't listened to all like 100 episodes from that first season, you know, go back and listen to that. But if you just look at the background expectations of the culture since the 1960s onward, the expectation is not that men would go and provide for their homes, take care of their wives and children, that they would stay married.0.69
00:17:46.540You know, that there was no such thing as no fault divorce, you know, things of that nature to since the 1960s, looking forward, you have this expectation that women need to go out and work.
00:18:01.660they need to provide, they need to produce, that the, you know, the media portrays men
00:18:08.440in story, you know, so like on television, in books and things like that, portrays men as
00:18:15.700kind of dopes, you know, and they're not competent. So you think the church was just following the
00:18:22.480culture then? Oh, absolutely. Well, yeah, I just mean like the background culture, not even the
00:18:27.640church itself. It's just like the expectation is that women are competent, men are idiots,1.00
00:18:33.520and that you're free to come and go as you please as far as divorce. I mean, even thinking1.00
00:18:40.880about an experience I had, when my parents, when I was a child, went to a church they had left,
00:18:48.840the pastor, I guess he had been committing adultery, left his wife, divorced her,
00:18:55.280and they still retained him as a pastor.
00:19:52.160So I think one of the things that fathers are supposed to provide is masculinity sexually, that they're portraying what it means to be a man over against our culture, which is, again, egalitarian, feminist.
00:20:07.080One of the things that I was looking at social media this week was I actually didn't understand the photo at first.0.96
00:20:12.380It was a picture of Dwayne Wade with, I thought, his daughter and his Gabrielle Union or something like this, his feminazi crazy wife.0.64
00:20:23.180But anyway, I said, well, what's so weird about this?
00:20:25.840Well, I started reading the backstory, and his daughter is actually called Zaya now
00:20:32.100and is a 15-year-old boy who is pretending to be a woman in the culture-speak, trans.
00:20:41.320And so they were, like, going to prom or something,
00:20:44.680And D. Wade is up here celebrating in the photo on social media about Zaya, who is also apparently an advocate for the LGBTQRSTUV plus everything else movement.
00:20:57.540So, Brian, this was kind of a just kind of a poignant example, I thought, in my mind, of the opposite of setting a masculine tone as a father in your home, in your culture, actually celebrating the exact opposite, which maybe highlights why it's so needed.
00:21:13.720So I guess just if you were to look at that situation, look at our culture, why do we need sexually masculine fathers?
00:21:23.380Well, when you have a doctrine that's under particular attack in the culture, right now we're talking about doctrine of anthropology, human sexuality.
00:21:35.620What is it? What is it for? Is it fluid? Is it culturally defined? Is it something that you can change at will? Are you self-determinative there?
00:21:42.340you're looking at a place where the church needs to particularly stand strong, where they need to
00:21:48.700present a strong front, build high walls. They need to be very clear, emphatically clear. And
00:21:54.340one of the most important ways that you can be emphatically clear on something, one of the ways
00:21:58.820you have to be emphatically clear on something doctrinally is by demonstrating that doctrine
00:22:03.580incarnationally, putting flesh to it, demonstrating it in households and in church leaders. And this
00:22:10.160is one of the reasons that things like the Latin Rite celibacy in the Catholic Church
00:22:13.940that's been going on since the Middle Ages—not all priests in the Catholic Church are celibate,
00:22:19.340but there are some Eastern Rite exemptions and things like that. But in general, what that kind
00:22:25.600of thinking has established is that celibacy in a man is the ideal, and that anybody who falls
00:22:33.580short of that is they're not quite righteous enough. And that kind of thinking has led to
00:22:41.480the fruit in the church where we're not presenting a strong and fleshed picture in our be like this
00:22:46.620man ideal in the church of sexually masculine, being a husband and a father, and that kind of
00:22:53.600thing. So when you have the combination of an apostate culture that has completely lost its0.96
00:23:00.420mind. What you just described is, it would be, I mean, you laugh, it's silly. When you look at1.00
00:23:09.220this kind of stuff, it's so silly that it would just be a joke if it wasn't utterly destroying0.67
00:23:18.180thousands upon thousands of image bearers of God and bringing absolute hell and misery0.93
00:23:24.420into families. So the church, men in particular, have to lead the charge in demonstrating1.00
00:23:32.460sexually masculine ideals, and that means self-controlled, not pornified, not effeminate,
00:23:40.520not falling into the ditch of domination or abdication, but presenting a strong front,
00:23:47.120partly because that's actually, I think, actually going to be one of our strongest apologetics
00:23:52.160over time is that as the culture reaps the whirlwind, they're sowing to the wind, they're
00:23:59.380going to reap the whirlwind. What's going to be there for them to look to and say, is there a
00:24:04.620different way? It should be Christian men, Christian households, Christian communities,
00:24:10.320Christian churches. What do you mean when you say like they should look that way? Do you mean like0.82
00:24:16.200they actually should by appearance look a certain way? Like the godly men? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:22.160Yeah, absolutely. You should. I mean, and not in the every every single man should, you know, fit some exact stamp of cultural ideal of beard and jacked the level of jackedness, you know, you know, but men should look like men.
00:24:41.560men should dress like men women should dress like women fathers should be you should look at a man
00:24:48.260and be able to say wow he's not fluid between the two and right now some of the some of the
00:24:56.140ways that the Overton window gets pushed in towards effeminacy and gender fluidity is actually
00:25:02.100in that realm where we're like oh let's let's normalize fat fat guys who it's hard to tell
00:25:09.960whether they're, you know, fat everybody.
00:25:12.340Hard to tell whether they're even a man or a woman.
00:25:14.340Let's normalize men, like, wearing the most, like, high heels.
00:25:19.900And you guys watched The Great British Baking Show?
00:30:07.400It is interesting, though, Brian, because I was thinking of one of the quotes from Doug Wilson, which is really helpful.
00:30:12.860He says this, men don't carry things because they happen to have broad shoulders.
00:30:16.860They have broad shoulders because God created them to carry things.
00:30:21.100So one of the things we're not advocating is that you should have muscles and be strong and use your strength so that you can take really crazy selfies.
00:30:34.020So what we are saying, though, is that masculinity, God made you a certain way physically so that you can gladly assume responsibility because this is what it means to be a man.
00:30:44.200The other thing I would say is in the category of sexual masculinity, why a father needs to be that, you also need to show your people what it means to be a sexually fruitful, potent guy.
00:30:56.700So this seems, again, so obvious, Dan, but like if you're having children, raising them well, being sexually fruitful, the fruit is obvious.
00:31:06.000Well, that is going to be something that shapes your people as well.
00:31:09.660So, again, why would that aspect of fatherhood, i.e. raising children, showing what sexuality is actually for, and I'm talking about marriage bed sexuality now, why is that important in leading a people?
00:31:22.300Well, I mean, you don't even have to look out into the scriptures.
00:31:25.480you could just look at humanity itself within the scope of even pagan religions and how important
00:31:32.020virility and being able to have children is. I mean, it's massively important throughout all
00:31:39.380of humanity. It's something that's ingrained in our humanity from the first covenant made with
00:31:44.220Adam, with our father Adam, to be fruitful and to multiply because it is one of the greatest
00:31:52.060and most potent things for good or for ill that a man can do
00:31:57.000is to create eternal creatures, creatures that will live forever,
00:32:05.000They're created in the image of God, and you had some part in making them.
00:32:10.480And as the scripture says, they're like arrows in the hands of a warrior.
00:32:14.700And so that means it's a dangerous thing to have children,
00:32:18.440and it's a very potent thing to have children.
00:32:21.400And it's the ultimate picture of virility and of masculine strength.
00:32:26.940Yeah, and one of the reasons I bring it up is because, especially in manosphere spaces, Brian, you're familiar with a lot of this from having gone to the conferences, hanging out with some of those guys.
00:32:36.480But one of the problems becomes they'll talk about things like men on a mission.
00:32:55.200Or they just say we're not having children, whatever.
00:32:58.360So from your take, Pastor Orly, why is the sexually fruitful part so important when you're defining sexual maleness?
00:33:04.340Well, whenever you have sin get into a system in any serious way, and we have an absolute flood of sexual immorality in our cultural system right now,0.78
00:33:13.400as it, again, apostatizes from the Christian faith.0.84
00:33:16.660You're going to have reaction, counterreaction, all flesh.
00:34:08.400If you want to be a father, go impregnate six women in the Philippines.
00:34:12.520I mean, that's literally what Andrew Tate said at one point from a clip I saw on Twitter.
00:34:15.780I don't listen to Andrew Tate, so whatever.
00:34:18.240But you're going to have reaction, counterreaction.
00:34:21.500And so what the church is always aiming to do is to not just believe true things, but again, enflesh them to demonstrate sexual wisdom in an age of sexual folly.
00:34:32.620And that is going to require men to absolutely take the charge and lead in sexual purity, sexual continence, and fruitful sexuality.
00:34:45.820So men who are looking at pornography, and that's a significant number of our listeners for sure, that needs to be first priority in your life for repentance.
00:34:57.920And I'm not going to hit you over the head right now.
00:36:05.560But, like, sexual fruitfulness, this is a get-your-house-in-order issue.0.97
00:36:09.840Yeah, we've been cultivated, we've been discipled culturally by this apostate culture
00:36:15.060to separate sex from covenant on the one side and from fruitfulness on the other.0.99
00:36:21.960So we have covenantless sex in pornography, fornication, premarital sex, promiscuity. We have a flood of everything is sexual. Everybody's bodies are out. There's complete immodesty. Everything is sex all the time, sex 24-7.0.99
00:36:40.260And then you also are able to technologically divorce sexual fruitfulness from the act of sex itself with hormonal birth control and all kinds of other transhumanist technological advances that are actually generally evil.
00:36:57.180And the church has been pretty much unified on this question until, again, 10 minutes ago, historically speaking.
00:37:02.580And so when you do that, when you have these two disconnects, it is an act of radical obedience to God.
00:37:11.620It looks radical against the backdrop of just normal covenant, sexual fruitfulness, having children, being faithful to your wife, raising your children.
00:37:22.360Those normal things all of a sudden become—
00:37:24.640Teaching your daughters how to put clothes on.0.85
00:37:26.240I mean, right now there are guys on Twitter who are not even Christians who are selling courses on Gumroad trying to help men just do what I described.0.99
00:37:34.160Find a good woman, marry her, have children, like live this trad life.0.77
00:37:37.560And they're doing it because a lot of them are just making money off of it.
00:37:40.340But that tells you like those normal things, just being a human being is now you can monetize.
00:37:47.760Like you can actually sell courses on.
00:37:49.500It'd be like if you had a culture where you had to sell a course on how to eat.
00:38:21.000Stuff that you could just – your dad taught you how to do this stuff, and it was, like, not something you ever – Amish kids, for the most part, aren't thinking about how to be a husband and a father, generally.0.99
00:38:35.800I mean, I highly doubt they have – well, I know they're not listening to podcasts.1.00
00:38:40.240I was about to say, I highly doubt they're listening to podcasts about how to be –
00:38:42.840Amish listeners out there, please send us a message if you're confused on what a human is.0.99
00:38:47.520Yeah, they're like – and even for all – I'm sure the Amish have their issues.0.88
00:38:51.000But, you know, when you look at, like, that frozen-in-time snapshot of pre-sexual apostate culture versus stuff that now is a course on Gumroad, where there's a guru who's like, you know what I'm going to teach you how to do?0.99
00:39:08.620I'm going to teach you how to marry a woman and have children with her.0.99
00:39:13.500And the Amish are like, am I a joke to you?1.00
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00:40:08.420Speaking of jokes in our culture, Brian, one of the things we'll move on to point number three is men are supposed to be hard-nosed providers and violent protectors.
00:40:16.120This is from Genesis 2.15, to work and to keep.
00:40:20.060So cultivation is one of man's jobs, both of things like vocation, his people, but also protection.
00:40:27.820Keeping is a defensive warrior-type posture.
00:40:32.600There's many places in Scripture where we could defend violence.
00:40:35.880And I say it's a joke in our culture because we can't even get this right.
00:40:39.980So I have a lot of pushback on my podcast, I know, because people are like,
00:40:43.760wait a minute are you saying that men should be the providers in their household i mean we literally
00:40:49.780in the church we can't agree on that and it seems like one of the most basic things dan i know you've
00:40:56.520thought a lot about through counseling and with men you've had a lot of these conversations where
00:41:01.620it's like get off your couch go get a job bring your wife home why is this so central though to
00:41:08.360Like, think about some of the men that we've counseled.
00:41:11.540If you can get the guy to repent and do that, their family is on a totally different trajectory.
00:41:17.020Yeah, for, I mean, generationally, they're on a different trajectory.
00:41:20.980Yeah, you know, right up there with pornography, as far as shame goes, this is one of those things where a man is not providing for his family.
00:41:32.060Yeah, to the core of what it means to be a man.
00:41:34.780If you're not providing for your family, it is very shameful.
00:41:37.800And you know this. I mean, instinctively, we all know this because when we were getting out of high school and if you didn't know like what college you're going to go to or what you were going to do for a career, maybe this is just me. I said universally. People would ask like, oh, so what are you going to do after high school? And you're like, boy, I better have an answer. I better have a good answer or else it's kind of shameful because to say like, oh, I don't know. Maybe I'll live at home for a while. It's like, oh, shame.
00:42:07.120I'm really hoping to beat the next Call of Duty.
00:43:33.140So, again, getting households in order, Brian, I'm curious in counseling, what do you say to people who are in that situation?
00:43:42.160You know, one of the things I think is important to say first in this conversation, and we do end up saying quite a bit in counseling, is it's hard.
00:43:51.400What we're talking about is hard, and it's hard because you're no longer simply competing against a cursed earth.
00:43:56.860You're competing against a cursed system where the sin is systemic in the system.
00:44:01.720So you're not just working the ground with the sweat of your brow with thorns and thistles.
00:44:07.020You're also battling the thorns and thistles of an idolatrous statist behemoth that has appointed itself competitor, chief competitor with fathers for that role.
00:44:18.720And so when a man goes out now and he says, I'm going to work hard.
00:44:29.080She's going to be there with the children.
00:44:31.180We're going to build a house, give a legacy, give an inheritance.
00:44:34.180At every step, the government or some downstream implication of governmental action is going to make that feel Sisyphean.
00:44:47.280Like the guy who, Sisyphus, who had to roll the boulder up the hill and then they knocked it down and they'd do it again.
00:44:53.540You know, because I'm talking to my dad this last week about inheritance.
00:44:58.200he's worked hard wise you know wise wise guy he saved his money good investments whatever
00:45:04.580and he's he's talking about his grandchildren and wanting to provide you know see my mom through
00:45:12.120to her 90s or however old like she's statistically going to live and he's an engineer so he has a
00:45:18.560like an actuarial projection I'm pretty sure on a spreadsheet somewhere and he's describing
00:45:24.760the competition for inheritance that the government is going to put up. And he's like,
00:45:32.020look, if I do it this way, I'll end up paying a 40 to 50% tax rate on all of this inheritance
00:45:37.180functionally. And it's like, so I think the first thing we have to say is, yeah, it's hard guys.
00:45:43.600Like don't take us as saying, it's just so easy. You idiot, you loser, you worm. If you don't have1.00
00:45:48.98050 K in the bank, if you don't have a house paid off, if you're not, then you're an idiot. It's1.00
00:45:52.980like if you have those things it almost certainly right now means that you had a really good dad
00:45:58.200i mean or some some other great gift of the lord right so that's i mean i think you have to start0.97
00:46:06.780that right start there right now so you don't crush men and make them feel stupid that they
00:46:11.560had maybe they don't even know the reason why it's so hard but i think putting words that's
00:46:17.480really important yeah i think that's a really good point it's tied to another thing on the
00:46:21.100provision front. And this comes from—I was reading this about Jewish culture, so Old Testament
00:46:27.920Jewish culture, which would have been based in the Old Testament scriptures, obviously.
00:46:32.880But what's really interesting is they saw it as a responsibility that fathers also had to pass on
00:46:37.220a vocation or a trade to their sons. So this isn't just when we say that men should be providers.
00:46:43.340There's many different ways in which you have to provide spiritually. But for this episode,
00:46:47.740But I want to highlight that because I think it's tied to generational work.
00:46:51.380We're talking about building new Christendom.
00:46:53.860And, Dan, we have to win our son's hearts and our daughter's hearts so that they are going to, among other works, they're going to carry on this work of building new Christendom.
00:47:03.260So I wonder if you would just speak to that a little bit and why it's important that we give vocations both for new Christendom but also, like, we have to help our sons find jobs and figure out what they're going to do with their lives.
00:47:14.700Yeah, yeah. I think we'll get into some of this as well with the patriarchal vision that we'll talk about next, but it's vital for fathers to pass on a vision to their sons and to aspire to be a sort of man, the sort of man that you are. That's like the goal of a good father is, hey, be like me, son, and passing that on.
00:47:33.480And also like Brian said in the last episode for daughters to look to the father and say, that's the kind of man that I want to marry. And so part of that is vocation. I mean, actually, if you, if you back up a little bit, one of the things that I've talked about in the past is passing on an inheritance.
00:47:51.700We just talked about of wealth, but also of culture, meaning like, what do you actually do?
00:47:59.060Everything from physical strength that we talked about and taking care of your body, the way that you eat, the way that you reason, also the way that you work, which means there are going to be certain competencies.
00:48:12.560If you're an engineer, obviously that's going to be somewhat difficult to pass on to your son.
00:48:17.600you know, or if you're a medical doctor, that's going to be somewhat difficult to pass on to your
00:48:23.160son. But there are all sorts of competencies that you can pass on that are adjacent to that.
00:48:30.680I mean, you don't have to teach them the stress point of, I don't know, like extruded plastics
00:48:38.300in order for them to understand engineering principles. Like engineers have a very unique
00:48:43.740skill set and a very unique way of of of thinking yeah like my dad passed on the proverb it's a
00:48:50.440family saying very deep wisdom shock and vibration are the enemies of mechanical systems so that's
00:48:57.980good i can't tell you how many times it's been applicable in my life but part of vocation is
00:49:01.900like you had said eric it's part of your identity it is saying in a way what are you for what are
00:49:09.020you for it's where you're going to spend like 80 of your time during the week like waking hours
00:49:13.280Yeah. Right. So a big part of it might be, you know, Brian, we talked about this, but finding the grain in your son and then just helping them figure it out.
00:49:21.620I guess just for the sake of this point, it's just that fathers, you have a responsibility that you don't say to your sons, hey, when you're 18, go figure it out.
00:49:30.120I hope you find something to do. Maybe they end up going to college to get a ton of debt and it wasn't a good idea for them.
00:49:36.480Or maybe, you know, at the age of 15, I know Headmaster Love, like with my boys, we're already talking about, like, what are some businesses we could start?
00:49:44.820What are some things we could get them engaged in?
00:49:48.000Let's help them chart a course forward.
00:49:51.440Again, tying this to this is one way fathers provide for their sons.
00:49:55.820And then I would say, too, on the provision for daughters, don't let your daughter be 18 and then say sayonara, good luck, hope you find a husband.
00:50:04.220And the provision a father should make is you should help her figure that out.
00:50:12.400Yeah, absolutely, because otherwise you're going to, like, the woman was hardwired to desire a masculine covering, masculine protection, masculine leadership.0.76
00:50:27.660Yep. Which is why even, you know, like even the feminist systems of the world, you'll often find at the top pulling the strings, there are still some old white men.0.90
00:50:37.920You'll find basically wherever you have unattached females going out in culture with no fatherly covering or husbandly covering, they will often become the victim of a false father figure, of not a benevolent father figure, but a destructive father figure, or of the kinds of male exploiters that father figures are supposed to be protecting their daughter from.0.83
00:51:03.560like young men in college who are really not interested in anything about your daughter
00:51:08.800other than the fact that she is a woman he can sleep with.
00:51:11.480So when you're considering raising your daughters into adulthood,
00:51:16.080you need to make sure that you're protecting them, giving them –
00:51:20.520I think this really links us into the next patriarchal vision section –
00:51:24.460but that you're providing that covering for them,
00:51:27.360that you are helping them think clearly,
00:51:30.260that you're helping them not easily find themselves in situations
00:51:33.500where it's really easy to be taken advantage of.
00:51:37.720Now, your daughters can sin, bad things can happen, understand that.
00:51:42.960But as a father, part of being a violent protector0.96
00:51:46.460is before you ever need to step in and stab a homie or protect someone.0.99
00:51:54.500You know, like before you need to get in there and be like,0.87
00:51:59.020are you thinking about the situations you're putting your daughter into?
00:52:02.540What are the probabilities? What are the likelihoods kind of environment? Don't send her off to some random college and go, yeah, go live in the dorm and I'll call you once a month. Like, no, that's not going to work. Not going to work. I mean, even if it does, it will be a statistical anomaly.
01:07:40.300through abdicating your responsibility1.00
01:07:42.080and letting your wife nag you into leading your family.1.00
01:07:46.820You're not going to get that by becoming0.99
01:07:48.960whatever that word that you said was invented by being the the daddy mommy you know the fahmy
01:07:55.340you're not going to do that and your children and your grandchildren and even if they're
01:08:00.660they don't exist yet your great great great great grandchildren need you and want you to go out
01:08:07.180before them to lead for from the front and to set a glorious patriarchal vision that can be
01:08:14.200inherited for generations. Yeah. And I think the other point, we've kind of been talking about this
01:08:19.160throughout the episode, but on this point, especially with Theoden, it really is tied to
01:08:25.120honor culture, right? That you do not want to dishonor your fathers and what they've done.
01:08:32.100And so I think one of the things that we can do, even if you didn't have those fathers directly,
01:08:37.260the thing is that men need stories like this. They need stories of Alfred the Great. They need
01:08:41.740stories of men that will inspire them and and i think a big part of that is it's not just we we
01:08:48.060aren't like syllogisms you know men aren't syllogisms where you input this theological data
01:08:52.680and you get this result men's again theoden he won his men's hearts and so they fought and they
01:08:59.380fought for you know for glory and they honored themselves so gentlemen we'll move on as we uh
01:09:05.220as we close with a few points number six on here fathers are supposed to lead in the education of
01:09:11.620their children, Ephesians 5 and 6. Brian, why is this so important? It's something that we've
01:09:16.980emphasized at St. Brennan's. It's something that I think as men, we all share this passion in the
01:09:22.840midst of our statist culture that, no, we're going to take a leading role in educating our sons.
01:09:27.560We've talked about it before, but just why is this such an important role for the Father?
01:09:32.240Well, I mean, God gives it directly to the Father, which doesn't mean in Ephesians 5,
01:09:37.300or yeah, Ephesians 6. I'm sorry. Ephesians 6, 4. So God gives this role directly to the father.
01:09:43.640That doesn't mean the father cannot oversee and again, deploy his troops, deploy his wife
01:09:49.600to homeschool, deploy teachers to help in church schools and things like that. But the father has
01:09:54.960the primal responsibility. He's the first moving responsibility. He's where the buck stops with
01:10:00.480the children. So obviously, if God says that you are, if he gives you a duty, it will be good for
01:10:05.800you to do that duty, and it will be bad for you if you neglect or shirk that duty. Even if you
01:10:11.880don't understand why, you have to understand that about the nature of reality. This is why in
01:10:17.500counseling, one of the first questions we often talk through in marriage counseling, for example,
01:10:22.280is, okay, you're having trouble in the marriage. Okay, turn to the wife. What does God say the
01:10:28.060duty of a wife is? Let's just talk about what God says you must do this. Start there. Husband,0.99
01:10:32.760What does it say? So that's the foundation you build on. And then you start to see all the way
01:10:39.480down the line what happens when fathers neglect this duty and give it over, give way to other
01:10:46.520father figures who are often not benevolent. And it's bad. You can't give an intergenerationally
01:10:54.640connected patriarchal vision for your family and give up education because that's where your
01:11:00.000children are going to learn their schema in many ways for the reality of the world, for what the
01:11:05.040world is, for what they're for, for what is true, good, and beautiful, what virtue looks like. I
01:11:11.240mean, they're going to be shaped by their teachers to look like their teachers and their peers to
01:11:15.460look like their peers. So a husband, a father who doesn't oversee the education of his children
01:11:20.900in imparting wisdom to his children and making sure that they understand what the world is like,
01:11:27.900he's obviously neglecting his duty and he's going to reap really, really devastating fruit down the
01:11:34.960line. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Dan, one of the other things is you think about Solomon
01:11:40.020in proverbial wisdom. I think fundamentally, that's where Jordan Peterson, his 12 rules for
01:11:45.920life, beyond order, all that stuff. I think it's resonated because it's more or less a type
01:11:52.200of proverbial wisdom. And what I mean is it's practical advice on finance, sex, business,
01:11:57.120women, et cetera, when we think about education, we're not just talking about, you know, the books
01:12:02.940you need to read or the Latin you need to read or what we're doing at St. Brennan's even, but even
01:12:07.480wrapped into St. Brennan's and fatherhood is like practical advice for everyday life. A lot of the
01:12:13.500stuff that we've talked about that's so useful for young men is like how to get the girl. I mean,
01:12:18.340that maybe that seems like it should be obvious, but in our culture, it's not. So I guess talk
01:12:23.860just a little bit about that side of education, practical wisdom. Yeah, yeah, I like that. That's
01:12:29.380interesting. Yeah, because the primary focus, that's almost like a secondary tier, is like
01:12:35.760philosophy, theology, you know, the higher sciences and things like that. But one of the
01:12:40.740cores as a father in educating your children are just the basics of how to live life every day.
01:12:49.120and you can see that from our episode on daddy youtube where we discussed like here's how you
01:12:54.360just here's how you tie a tie i mean actually it makes me really really sad when i think about that
01:13:00.120all of the things that a father should do uh as far as teaching sons to just this is how you be a
01:13:05.820man step one even this is how you start a fire this is how you uh are supposed to drink and not
01:13:13.540drink a beer. Like this is how all of those basic things are so important for fathers to win the
01:13:22.880hearts of their sons. I think more so you can win the heart of your sons by saying, here's how you
01:13:30.800go fishing. Here's how you tie on a hook. This is how you bait it. This is where you're going to
01:13:36.600find fish. This is the time of year you should fish. This is how you clean a fish. You're going
01:13:42.160to win his heart much easier than if you sit down with just merely some sort of systematic theology
01:13:49.820and just try to pound it into his head. It's much easier to win the hearts of your children
01:13:55.460to see beauty when you show them some of the basics, and then you say, this is going to
01:14:00.820challenge you. Now I'm going to talk to you about some systematics. You must lay the groundwork
01:14:06.580first. And it's so important just to be a functioning human, but also to win the hearts
01:14:11.640of your children. Yeah, I think that's really important. Brian, any thoughts on that wrapping
01:14:16.520up education for children? No, I would just point people back to one of the episodes that we did on
01:14:21.500Covenant Succession as well. We really unpacked this topic at length in that episode in season
01:14:27.280one, and I think there's a lot of meat there that if anybody's looking for resources, they can get
01:14:34.060a good start in where to go deeper, I think, there. Yeah, and also I would recommend the
01:14:38.820captain's log, which I know people can find. We can provide links for that as well. Gentlemen,
01:14:43.460concluding, I think, is a good point. Number seven, a good area to wrap things up today.
01:14:49.640Fathers are God's instrument for creating order in a world of chaos. So especially, again,
01:14:55.040Jordan Peterson, you know, his whole dynamic is this Jungian order in the midst of chaos.
01:15:00.620But really, God gives us a very simple plan for that. In Titus 1.5, Paul says this,
01:15:07.260The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished.
01:15:13.420And so you might ask yourself, okay, he told him, he gave him instructions to create order in the midst of chaos.
01:15:18.680How? How would a guy create order in the midst of chaos?
01:15:21.860And then he says, the way that you do this is you appoint elders in every town.
01:15:26.220And then he lists the qualifications of fatherhood.
01:15:29.380So I found that really interesting that our world is chaos.
01:15:33.720But like the father, we image the father when we start using our words and our actions to bring order to that chaos and light into the darkness.
01:15:43.460So it's a really interesting way to think about kind of concluding the roles of father.
01:15:49.440Dan, I just want to ask you your final thoughts on this.
01:15:52.980You think about the chaos in the world today.