The King's Hall - August 05, 2022


Wealth, Money, Space

Mentioned
Of Whiteness & Proxy Wars On Christian Nationalism: Interview with Dr. Stephen Wolfe

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 42 minutes

Words per minute

178.06

Word count

18,309

Sentence count

1,112

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Toxicity

40

sentences flagged

Hate speech

112

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brian here with a big announcement from New Christendom Press.
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00:00:36.380 Mayor Rothschild was born in 1744 in Frankfurt, Germany, in a ghetto known as Jew Alley.
00:00:44.620 The living conditions were difficult, but it was there that the young Rothschild began to learn about business.
00:00:51.660 His father was a silk merchant and would exchange foreign currency.
00:00:56.460 Later, he learned about rare coins from the Roman and Byzantine empires.
00:01:01.460 The persons most interested in these rare coins were princes and other nobles.
00:01:06.780 Because of Rothschild's large collection of rare coins,
00:01:11.000 Mayer attracted the attention of the crowned prince Wilhelm of Hesse.
00:01:16.200 The prince grew to trust Mayer in all matters of investing and finance.
00:01:21.340 When Prince Wilhelm Hess came into power, he inherited one of the largest fortunes in Europe.
00:01:28.840 Wilhelm trusted the Rothschild to be his Hofjude, German for court Jew, which meant Mayor Rothschild
00:01:37.240 was in a position to manage and protect Wilhelm's properties, wealth, and tax collection.
00:01:44.920 This position was put to the test when Napoleon invaded Germany.
00:01:49.840 Mayor Rothschild had seen this coming.
00:01:52.560 Some years earlier, he had sent his son to London to begin a finance business similar to his business in Germany.
00:01:59.620 He then moved the royal funds to London.
00:02:02.620 He lent those funds to the British for the war effort against Napoleon, making a fortune in the effort.
00:02:11.780 Before Mayor Rothschild's death, he sent his sons to live in strategic cities throughout Europe,
00:02:17.200 linking five Rothschild banking branches.
00:02:21.560 In the 19th century, the Rothschilds made their massive fortune
00:02:25.340 by playing both sides of wars and lending to governments.
00:02:30.800 Mystery surrounds the Rothschild family,
00:02:33.560 their wealth, their business practices, and their current holdings.
00:02:38.120 Mayer is famous for his quote,
00:02:40.480 Let me issue and control a nation's money,
00:02:44.420 and I care not who writes the laws. 0.94
00:02:47.200 What we do know is that the Rothschilds excelled where Christians have not. 0.92
00:02:54.060 Why is it that Christians, in the last 150 years, have excelled at being conquered? 0.94
00:03:00.500 Why is it that once-proud Christian institutions like denominations, hospitals, universities, and countries are now in the hands of pagans? 0.80
00:03:10.660 Why did the Christians hand these institutions over without a fight?
00:03:17.200 Jesus said in a parable, 0.96
00:03:19.200 The sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
00:03:26.260 Never has Jesus' parable been more true than in our time. 0.94
00:03:30.920 Not only have Christians failed to preserve and pass on cities and states that were founded by Christians, 0.98
00:03:38.140 but Christians of our time fail to pass on their personal wealth, money, and space to their generations. 0.98
00:03:44.600 They steal the inheritance of their generations and leave their grandchildren nothing. 0.98
00:03:50.200 We must correct this mistake.
00:03:52.920 The building of New Christendom depends on men loving their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren 0.59
00:03:59.400 by thinking like a Christian about wealth, money, and space, and not thinking like a modern consumer. 0.55
00:04:07.820 We, by the grace of God, will build, fight, and win.
00:04:12.240 The King's Hall Podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world.
00:04:20.740 Welcome back to the King's Hall Podcast.
00:04:23.480 My name's Brian Sauve, joined here with my good friends, Daniel, what is it, Berkowitz?
00:04:29.960 What did you say on the after hours last week?
00:04:32.020 Berkowitz.
00:04:32.640 Berkowitz.
00:04:32.960 That's right.
00:04:33.500 Berkowitz, bunkholder, and Eric Kahn.
00:04:37.000 That's right.
00:04:37.460 How you doing, gentlemen?
00:04:38.160 Why did you mispronounce his name?
00:04:39.780 Because I'm the fraud king of Kentucky.
00:04:42.240 speaking of money yeah if you ever if you ever want to have a good time just google eric con
00:04:46.900 i'm not going to explain anymore well welcome back everybody to this episode here uh we're
00:04:52.120 we're taking up one of the most important subjects in my opinion at least on uh this season
00:04:58.780 of the king's hall this is an area where you cannot accomplish you cannot accomplish the aim
00:05:06.360 of this season which is what the new christendom you can't accomplish that aim if you get this
00:05:11.400 wrong. I think you can say it that plainly. And it's the issue of wealth, money, and space.
00:05:17.220 Wealth, money, and space. If you don't understand this, if you fall into the ditch on either side
00:05:22.020 of the road when it comes to wealth, money, and space, then you will not create the kind of 0.99
00:05:29.260 Christians, the kind of families, the kind of churches, the kind of nations that will be able 0.94
00:05:34.500 to maintain robustly Christian society, robustly Christian culture over the long haul. And so we're
00:05:40.900 going to be talking about this issue in really three fairly simple parts in the episode today. 0.93
00:05:46.360 The first is simply establishing that Christians have struggled to think rightly about wealth, 0.92
00:05:52.620 money, and space. We're going to talk about what it looks like when you don't get this right, 0.99
00:05:58.420 why people aren't getting this right, what kind of theological errors are leading to wrong thinking
00:06:04.240 and wrong praxis, even surrounding this issue of wealth, money, and space. That's part one.
00:06:10.180 Part two, and when I say part one, I know I'm talking, and so you might assume this is going
00:06:14.320 to be like a 12-part series, but this is one episode. The second part of this episode, we're
00:06:19.420 going to talk about why this failure of theology has made Christians who are very good at getting 0.94
00:06:23.440 conquered. It's the result if you get this wrong, at least in one of the directions you can get it 0.96
00:06:28.060 wrong. And then number three, we're going to talk about how you can think and act rightly on this
00:06:33.460 subject and really try to get pretty practical. And we'll talk about principles, we'll talk high
00:06:39.220 level, but really we want this to be helpful in thinking through, no, like right now, you as a man
00:06:45.600 listening to this show, how can you take away some principles and some actionable items to do better
00:06:52.940 in this area and set up your generations, your church, your community for success, for fruitfulness
00:06:59.860 when it comes to wealth, money, and space? Just practically, what should you do? How can you
00:07:05.120 How can you change things? Maybe your family left you nothing. Maybe they left you debt and
00:07:10.660 bad examples. Maybe your parents had their government job, but they're planning on leaving
00:07:19.360 you exactly $0 as they coast through their retirement until the last month of their life
00:07:25.420 when the nursing home pulls the last dollar out of their 401k and then leaves you with no inheritance.
00:07:32.940 How can you be thinking better about this than maybe you received?
00:07:37.780 Sound good?
00:07:38.780 Sounds great.
00:07:39.580 Yep.
00:07:40.220 So, Dan, maybe we should start with just understanding what do we even mean?
00:07:44.880 I've used this phrase several times, wealth, money, and space.
00:07:47.280 What does that even mean?
00:07:48.380 What are we talking about?
00:07:49.020 Yeah, because there's a lot of crossovers, right?
00:07:50.660 A wealthy person has money and space, typically.
00:07:54.220 They also have assets.
00:07:55.760 Generally speaking, I think of a wealthy person as being able to cover their expenses on non-salaried income.
00:08:02.940 So not from your job, just from all of the other sources of income that you have.
00:08:07.020 The average wealthy person has seven sources of income, I believe.
00:08:11.340 Wow.
00:08:11.520 And so some people call that passive income, which is kind of silly because it makes it
00:08:16.220 sound like it's really easy to get, but it all takes work.
00:08:19.400 It's just passive.
00:08:20.360 Yeah, it's just passive.
00:08:21.400 So it's just basically weight.
00:08:22.800 It's passive income.
00:08:23.160 See, because I always think of a wealthy person as someone who fills up their gas tank and
00:08:26.660 doesn't care all the way, all the way to the top.
00:08:30.000 Yeah.
00:08:30.260 Yeah.
00:08:30.460 What are the signs of being rich?
00:08:31.740 It's really funny because growing up, the people that you think of being rich, like I thought people that had Nickelodeon were loaded because we had antennas on our TV.
00:08:41.380 And come to find out, like, actually people that had cable back then were not wealthy.
00:08:45.480 They were actually poor because they put their money into cable. 0.98
00:08:48.660 And dumber over time. 1.00
00:08:51.100 And dumber. 1.00
00:08:51.760 And dumber. 0.99
00:08:52.520 No, so wealth, that's just one way I think of it is being able to cover your expenses through non-salaried income. 0.99
00:08:58.200 So with all of your other sources of income that you have.
00:09:00.800 The other thing is that I think of assets. Assets are one of the things that wealthy people have that poor people do not have. They have a lot of assets. And that becomes really important when you know that we're in an inflationary economy because assets go up in value with inflation. And so it is a hedge. It's the best savings account you can have in an inflationary economy.
00:09:24.540 What would be an example, Dan, of assets? I mean, besides my gold grill in my mouth,
00:09:29.120 besides that. Yeah. So one of the most obvious assets are like rental properties,
00:09:34.600 commercial and residential. But like a single family rental home is an asset that you are
00:09:42.120 renting, you are getting rental income from. It's also appreciating in value with inflation.
00:09:47.380 Yeah. So that's one. The other thing is like businesses. So owning businesses,
00:09:51.720 owning stocks bonds especially like dividend bearing stocks which i'm i'm just gonna let
00:09:58.460 you know those are way too boring for me at this point but that would be if you had a ton of money
00:10:03.180 and you had a bunch of dividends that were paid out seven percent by the way dividends are not
00:10:08.880 taxed up to eighty thousand dollars a year so tax free money get to an accountant though that
00:10:16.160 or a tax accountant to make sure that that's actually true i don't have that much income in
00:10:20.700 dividends. And the other thing I would put in that bucket would be skills. I think a very skilled
00:10:27.080 man is a wealthy man. He might not have tapped it in the traditional sense to say like, oh,
00:10:34.540 that dude's rich. But those people that have honed skills, I think are wealthy in a different
00:10:41.680 way. When we talk about money, just simply, I would just say buying power, the ability to buy.
00:10:47.480 Yeah. And people – this is counterintuitive, I think, in an inflationary world. People think, why would you want money? And that sounds dumb because you're like, well, aren't we talking about wealth and space? Some people say like you should hold $0 at all times because of inflation. It's actually a mistake because money is optionality. Liquid cash.
00:11:06.320 What does that mean? What does optionality mean?
00:11:08.580 Optionality means that I can react to different conditions in the market.
00:11:13.940 If I have cash and there's a 40% downturn, I can go buy things for 40% off.
00:11:18.140 You have the option to buy things.
00:11:19.440 Yeah, I have an option.
00:11:20.540 If all of my money is tied up in illiquid assets, which are worth money,
00:11:25.480 but they're hard to convert into money or they're slow to convert into money,
00:11:29.240 or they're even prone to moving with the market.
00:11:31.980 So if the market turns way down, my illiquid assets turn down too.
00:11:36.560 And it's difficult for me to sell them quickly enough in many cases.
00:11:39.940 So money helps you react quickly to changing market conditions, among other things.
00:11:43.620 Yeah, having cash flow and also having money in hand.
00:11:47.380 For example, a church is a good example of an organization that really, we're going to talk about this,
00:11:53.780 but benefits from having cash on hand so they can respond to difficulties, hardship, that sort of
00:12:01.960 thing. So yeah, people might think, oh, money, but inflation, fiat's bad. Look, we get it. But
00:12:06.660 optionality is one of the most powerful things that you have to understand if you want to do
00:12:12.100 well in this area. Yeah. So I would say money is buying power. So it can be cash. It can be fiat.
00:12:17.640 it could be other things too uh space would be just physical lands and buildings even intellectual
00:12:25.080 property you could probably put in there to some degree or another but i would definitely stick
00:12:30.100 with more uh the way that we're going to treat this as physical land and buildings being space
00:12:36.180 you are buying space essentially so our owning space so those are those those are the categories
00:12:41.680 that we're going to be talking about wealth money and space yeah and those are kind of what they
00:12:44.980 mean what we're going to be talking about today as we define them. Yeah. So the first point that
00:12:51.420 we wanted to take up was just talking through why and how Christians have struggled to think 0.99
00:12:56.660 rightly about wealth, money, and space. Because this has been a common, you know, a difficult
00:13:02.560 thing to get right on a theological level to where people have been taught to think wrongly
00:13:09.400 about wealth, money, and space. And that's led to, if you believe the wrong thing about something,
00:13:14.980 you will not treat the thing rightly. Obviously, if you thought that the goal for something like
00:13:21.480 sex was promiscuity, like the Christless manosphere, if you were like, oh yeah, 0.98
00:13:28.180 sex is about how many women can I bed, right? So I'm going to take pickup artistry classes and 0.99
00:13:33.220 really succeed in the world of sex. Well, you've actually failed because you've set the wrong
00:13:38.420 target. You're aiming for the wrong thing. You're actually aiming for failure. You are trying as
00:13:44.660 hard as you can to fail. And unfortunately, there have been many theological emphasis or different
00:13:52.020 and creative ways that Christians have gotten this issue of wealth, money, and space wrong.
00:13:56.500 And I mean both now and in the historic church. Yeah, that's right. And I would say in the last, 0.88
00:14:02.840 say like 150 years, part of the biggest problem is that you just have to be aware of when you're
00:14:07.640 talking about, you know, again, money, space, wealth, it has been colored heavily by Marxism.
00:14:14.100 So I was even posting the other day.
00:14:16.440 I said, listen, you know, I grew up in the young, restless, and reformed.
00:14:19.440 And it was don't waste your life, which translated to, like, don't own property, get rid of it, do missions overseas, be poor, love the fact that, like, Jesus, you don't have a house.
00:14:28.700 And really what happened was the Marxists took that, and they were like, yeah, so when Bill Gates says you'll own nothing and be happy, you're like Jesus.
00:14:38.720 And so you fall into this ditch of, like, all property.
00:14:41.620 I've had people on Twitter tell me property ownership is unchristian, which is interesting because if you look at things like Westminster Confession and what they wrote about theft, you know, the flip side of theft is you're protecting property rights.
00:14:56.280 Yes.
00:14:56.560 So God obviously believes in ownership of things.
00:14:59.260 It's a presupposition under that law.
00:15:01.180 For that commandment.
00:15:01.940 Is it it's lawful to own things?
00:15:03.800 And then there's, I think, actually a much smaller ditch, but it does happen in Christian camps, which is health, wealth, and prosperity.
00:15:10.220 So there definitely are crazy Kenneth Copeland people who are saying, you know, pray to God and he'll give you the Cadillac.
00:15:17.400 God wants you to be wealthy, Joel Austin, people like this.
00:15:19.980 And they are very influential in America.
00:15:22.020 So I think when you stack those two things up, a lot of people in between will say, well, at best, I should sort of detest wealth, not really want it, and not really think too much about, like, you know, building wealth, multigenerational homes. 0.57
00:15:37.980 And Dan, I think especially that's turned most American Christians into consumers. 0.62
00:15:43.180 And consumers are not people, correct me if I'm wrong, they're not people that think about assets in particular. 0.88
00:15:50.880 For the project of this season to be successful, the project of seeing a new Christendom built,
00:15:55.860 there will need to be thousands and thousands of Christian men and women who are equipped to stand for the truth of Scripture
00:16:01.440 against the errors of both the liberal church and the pagan culture.
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00:17:36.660 Yeah, they're not going to think about assets. The thing is, it's really interesting that you
00:17:40.600 mentioned Christians turning into consumers because it's just falling from one ditch into 0.99
00:17:45.660 another. And to show a little bit of grace, you do have passages like in 1 Timothy, Paul says
00:17:55.960 that money is the root of all evil. The love of money. The love of money is the root of all evil.
00:18:01.300 Excuse me. Yeah, you're right. But my translation is what people hear,
00:18:05.840 is that money is the root of all evil. Yeah, good point. Yes, he says those who want to be rich
00:18:11.160 fall into a snare, essentially. This is 1 Timothy 6. And he says, it plunges them into ruin and
00:18:18.260 destruction, for the love of money is the root of all. And literally in Greek, like in a lot of
00:18:23.480 English translations, it will say, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. It just
00:18:27.660 literally says, the love of money is the root of all evil. By craving it, some have wandered away
00:18:33.400 from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs and sorrows. So, you know, there's something
00:18:40.480 there's something in this idolatry of money that is a shared root with all sin. It has this common
00:18:47.820 root. There's some thing that the human heart is doing, the fallen human heart is doing in
00:18:54.420 sinfully loving money that is the same impulse leading him to sin in every other way that he
00:18:59.260 sins. And I think that that's actually, understanding what that is and how that works
00:19:04.180 is one of the most interesting. It's very interesting because when you think about what
00:19:08.020 money is. Money is basically, you can turn it into anything. So money, in a sense, represents
00:19:15.220 all human pleasure, security, money's your shield and your reward, money's your strong tower,
00:19:21.580 money's your banner, money can, you know, you can turn it into Teslas or vacations or sex.
00:19:26.220 Money answers everything.
00:19:27.300 Money seems to do what only God can do. So money, the love of money is like a concentrated form of
00:19:33.760 idolatry, I think is, is the point of that verse. Yeah. When you preached a sermon on that in
00:19:39.340 Proverbs, that was one of the most helpful sermons that I had ever heard because that,
00:19:43.960 that verse I had been taught just along with, I'm sure everybody else, this pietistic notion that 0.99
00:19:50.660 money is evil, just is absolutely evil. You should despise it. And the best thing to do
00:19:59.340 would be to give it all away.
00:20:00.580 Yeah, just get rid of it.
00:20:01.320 Yeah, to get rid of it all,
00:20:02.460 to Francis Chan it
00:20:03.520 and just sell everything
00:20:04.480 and go to Asia.
00:20:05.500 Yeah.
00:20:06.080 I mean, emissions.
00:20:06.900 No, seriously, that's what he did.
00:20:08.320 We name and names.
00:20:09.060 No, he literally did that.
00:20:10.080 Yeah, he literally did that.
00:20:11.720 So that's how I had always
00:20:13.760 had this idea of money.
00:20:15.200 Like, I have money in my bank account
00:20:16.780 and I give some of it to the church,
00:20:18.160 but I feel dirty
00:20:18.920 because I still have some
00:20:21.040 and I work for it.
00:20:22.400 And it's almost like
00:20:23.100 everything that I did
00:20:24.160 in gaining income
00:20:26.360 and providing for my family
00:20:28.580 was tainted.
00:20:29.340 with evil mammon that was coming into my bank account.
00:20:33.260 And I think this is one of the rubs
00:20:34.580 that I've talked about in the Hard Man podcast,
00:20:36.540 but why men are flocking away
00:20:38.500 from the American church in droves
00:20:39.860 is because it's basically like,
00:20:41.900 hey, come give us your money for missions
00:20:44.000 and for my salary, 0.87
00:20:46.360 but also everything you do is dirty and unholy.
00:20:50.260 Yeah.
00:20:50.700 And so we need your money on the one hand,
00:20:53.080 and it's bad unless you're giving it to us
00:20:56.280 for missions or your tithe or whatever.
00:20:58.340 And so I think a lot of American men have said, well, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense.
00:21:01.640 Hang on.
00:21:02.380 And I think what we need to be getting played.
00:21:04.340 Yeah, exactly.
00:21:04.940 And I think what we need to recover is, you know, pastors ought to be telling their men, hey, yeah, go righteously make a lot of money and find different ways to invest it in the kingdom.
00:21:14.660 And here's what I think a lot of people will miss.
00:21:17.640 A tithe is part of the investment in the kingdom, but so might be starting a media company.
00:21:21.980 So might be starting a business that can be run and can profit people by, say, like truth telling.
00:21:27.580 right it doesn't all have to be missions and tithe yeah so maybe i actually like that it's
00:21:34.320 almost like you know how some people um the the way that they taught about something like sex
00:21:39.480 again sex is a good one to help us understand money because i think it helps us to see how
00:21:44.500 the idolatry of money is working in a way that is more intuitive to us people have wrongly taught
00:21:49.920 things like you know sex is dirty and gross so save it for the one you love they've done the
00:21:55.560 same thing with money. They're like, money is evil and bad, so give it all to us, says the church. 0.94
00:22:00.460 They're like, there's some kind of error. And I think to focus this in on this first question
00:22:06.940 here, that the errors really run in two directions. There is a ditch on one side of the road that is
00:22:12.540 like an ascetical ditch, and there's a ditch on the other side of the road that you mentioned
00:22:16.740 that's like the prosperity theology ditch. So let's talk through those two, starting with the
00:22:22.840 ascetic ditch. We've circled around it. Where do we see this? What does it look like and how does
00:22:29.200 it get wealth, money, and space wrong, this ascetical ditch? Yeah, it's actually interesting
00:22:35.160 that Eric brought up Marxism because you can see how that fits so well with the ascetic
00:22:40.980 teachings of the church because we automatically have suspicions of wealthy people, don't we?
00:22:46.640 I mean, you just expect that if somebody has wealth, that they've received that wealth through unjust gains.
00:22:55.080 Yeah, they must have stolen it from someone.
00:22:56.580 They've stolen it from someone or they've used people in order to get that or taken advantage of people to get those things.
00:23:03.200 And so you can see how that then the idea that, well, I don't have a lot of that, so then therefore I am more righteous would be some sort of pietistic, you know, warm, fuzzy feeling that you'd get by being able to justify why you actually suck at making money.
00:23:21.300 You know, but the ascetics that essentially when we say that, we're saying people that historically through different movements have denied pleasure in some form or another.
00:23:32.620 So you see this a lot. You know, you mentioned sex, like they would abstain from sex, even as far as like foods that tasted good.
00:23:39.660 They would eat dried foods or paste, you know, essentially.
00:23:42.360 And they would take vows of poverty, things like that.
00:23:45.640 And so you can see how some teachings in the pietistic movement
00:23:51.000 would definitely emphasize not having things
00:23:53.780 and not taking pleasure in the things of the world
00:23:56.800 and denying the things of the world in this specific way would be righteous.
00:24:04.380 Well, I was even thinking as you were talking about that, C.S. Lewis,
00:24:07.780 so he made a lot of money off the Narnia books,
00:24:10.600 but in his biography we're told that he gave away like 100% of the profits.
00:24:15.060 And so when he died, what he left to his kid was like a jacket, a pair of slacks and like $32.
00:24:22.220 Wow. 0.68
00:24:22.800 But that was in the book, at least it was kind of portrayed as like, that's the really Christian thing to do is die with nothing and pass on nothing.
00:24:30.080 Well, then you, then you, the problem is then you read the Proverbs and it's like, well, actually the godly thing to do is leave an inheritance to your children.
00:24:36.220 We're explicitly told that.
00:24:37.800 Yeah.
00:24:38.160 Um, so again, it plays into that ascetic, you know, sort of the, you know, like a monk, you know, we should all die with nothing having never tasted pleasure and we should buy into the Puritan notion that, uh, you know, somewhere someone is enjoying themselves, the nagging suspicion that someone is doing that.
00:24:53.820 Yeah. So, I mean, in the same way that the ascetic is making an error where it's like just like God did not give the good gift of sex for the sake of these ruinous pursuits of pornography, fornication, adultery, but to bless his people with fruitfulness, pleasure, joy, children, you know, those gifts.
00:25:16.120 He doesn't give people money for the sake or, and money, like when you say money, like, well, 0.87
00:25:21.120 God didn't give money directly. God made a world that was full of wealth. I mean,
00:25:25.240 the garden was full of gold. God intended for it to be used as money, like from the beginning.
00:25:30.180 He didn't give his people money for the sake of the ruinous pursuits of self-sufficiency,
00:25:36.340 idolatry, greed, materialism, but he gave those good gifts so that people could enjoy his creation,
00:25:44.760 love their neighbors, build communities that would preach about this radically generous father
00:25:52.060 who made all things, who blesses his people, and at whose right hand are pleasures forevermore.
00:25:59.000 So the ascetic gets it wrong by actually ending up maligning God's character as a good father
00:26:05.600 in saying all of these good things you've made that wealth basically represents, 0.78
00:26:10.760 those are actually bad things. When you said very good over the whole creation,
00:26:17.620 Father, you were wrong. These are dangerous things. And it's like, they're dangerous to
00:26:23.640 the sinner, but they are actually powerful to the righteous, which is why, I mean, asceticism
00:26:28.900 cannot stand up to the whole scripture. You have verses like Proverbs 10.22, the blessing of Yahweh
00:26:35.060 makes rich and he adds no sorrow with it. Meaning that if you find sorrow along with wealth,
00:26:42.520 human beings are the ones who brought all of that sorrow to the equation. God added no sorrow to it.
00:26:48.900 In fact, when God blesses in a normative way, generally speaking, and you again read the
00:26:55.300 covenant blessings in the book of Deuteronomy, read the Proverbs, you'll see that one of the
00:27:02.180 One of the side effects of God blessing his people as they live at peace with the world he made and the laws that he made by grace and through faith is that they actually tend to gain wealth, money, and space.
00:27:15.820 These are just actually good, natural, not even natural, but side effects that God built in to the thing.
00:27:23.600 You can even see that through the patriarchs.
00:27:25.460 Yes, absolutely.
00:27:26.220 Part of God's blessing was wealth.
00:27:28.320 Yeah.
00:27:28.520 I mean, just reading through Genesis to my boys, and it's just astounding how much wealth that these guys had.
00:27:34.520 You know, when it was Jacob and he was trying to appease Esau, and as a gift, he was giving just amazing amounts of livestock to this guy.
00:27:43.860 And I'm like, wait a minute.
00:27:44.660 I'm close enough to the farming world and the farming community that I know that each of these animals is a rather substantial dollar amount.
00:27:54.620 And in total, it's unbelievable.
00:27:56.940 and that was just a gift out of his excess essentially and so this even comes along with
00:28:01.920 god's blessings yeah you see a guy it's it's funny that we record this episode today because it's
00:28:06.760 august 2nd 2022 year of our lord as we record this and and a guy by the name of ron ronald
00:28:13.880 cider died just like four or five days ago he died on july 27th and ronald cider was essentially
00:28:21.100 what you might call a Christian Marxist or a Christian socialist. He wrote some very popular
00:28:28.300 books in the late 20th century on Christianity and wealth and things like this that were very
00:28:36.080 much socialistic, very much aiming for that kind of thing. Evangelicals for Social Action was a
00:28:40.680 think tank that he founded. And I'm very thankful to Mr. Sider because he actually led, his work
00:28:48.820 led to the writing of one of my favorite books, a book that you should read on this subject 0.85
00:28:53.440 by David Chilton entitled Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators. 0.79
00:29:00.040 This is a book that would take the topic of this episode and expand it to glorious proportions. 0.82
00:29:06.520 You should all read it if you haven't already. And Chilton wrote that book in response
00:29:10.060 to Sider. I think you read that and Joe Rigney's The Things of Earth, and you'll get two great
00:29:16.680 correctives to both of these ditches, to the ditch of the ascetic who essentially maligns 0.89
00:29:23.840 God's goodness and saying that the gift itself is bad. It's bad and we should avoid it. That the
00:29:29.460 answer to wealth is the avoidance of the thing, just like some of the early church fathers got
00:29:34.880 sex wrong by saying or implying that the answer to sexual sin was to avoid sex or put enormous
00:29:42.360 shackles beyond what god had put in his goodness on his law around sex they said we need 50 other
00:29:48.500 laws we need to restrict sex now to you know only for procreation and it's only on this time you
00:29:54.260 can't do it on this feast day you can't have sex on the sabbath you can't do you know all these
00:29:58.140 different sorts of things uh the ascetic wants to do the same with money he says the answer is to
00:30:03.500 avoid it yeah you see this actually to even push a hot button a little bit more you see this
00:30:09.060 pietistic ascetic sort of instinct also in alcohol today absolutely because the psalms say that god
00:30:17.380 gave wine to gladden the hearts of men that's in the bible it says that yes and so in a fear of
00:30:25.720 committing the sin of drunkenness we've put up barriers around in teetotaling pure purity
00:30:31.620 movements that that would prevent you from you know consuming alcohol at all saying no actually
00:30:36.040 god your your gift of wine is not a gift is a curse when i drink it it makes me happy and so
00:30:40.900 it's like i i feel i that's i should probably not do this thing i'm like well i'm sorry that's what
00:30:47.020 he made it to do it's supposed to make you feel kind of cheerful it's a design feature so you know
00:30:50.760 have a glass of wine with dinner and be cheerful you see this in we've talked a lot about in this
00:30:56.180 season about pietism and we've talked a lot about dispensationalism which again if you think that
00:31:02.200 the Great Tribulation and the secret rapture of the church and the calamitous end of the world
00:31:07.340 is going to end, like if you really thought the world was going to end in 1988, 1.00
00:31:11.720 then why would you spend all this time building something like a Christian school that requires 0.93
00:31:17.540 wealth, money, and space? Why would you build a Christian business? Like, there'd be no point.
00:31:22.860 So you see how some of these errors work together to create the ascetic impulse.
00:31:28.680 Yeah, and I think, so that's really the ascetic impulse, which is one ditch.
00:31:33.880 And Eric, you had mentioned the other ditch, which would be the prosperity gospel, right?
00:31:39.300 And so that's like, the name it, claim it, give me the stuff, right?
00:31:43.820 And so that's the other ditch.
00:31:44.800 Could you walk us through that a little bit?
00:31:45.940 Yeah, I would even connect that, Dan, you're absolutely right, to something like Job's friends.
00:31:50.100 Well, if you've been righteous, then you wouldn't have lost everything,
00:31:53.260 which included his wealth, his health, any form of human prosperity.
00:31:58.020 In that case, obviously, we know hindsight being 20-20,
00:32:01.520 thanks to the book of Job, he was righteous.
00:32:04.180 God said that he was.
00:32:05.700 So one of the things that we look to is how covenant promises work
00:32:09.920 and how they are generally true,
00:32:12.620 but that does not mean that righteous people won't suffer.
00:32:16.900 Obviously, those things happen.
00:32:19.060 What prosperity teaching will generally say,
00:32:21.760 and it comes from a few different camps,
00:32:23.260 is that if you trust God, you'll be rich.
00:32:26.560 And it simplifies everything pretty much to that.
00:32:28.880 You'll be rich and healthy, and if you die, it's because, you know,
00:32:31.840 you die poor, it's because you didn't have enough faith.
00:32:33.980 So it's an oversimplification of really proverbial wisdom
00:32:37.860 and a misapplication, which, Brian, you, like,
00:32:41.380 R2K people have actually kind of picked this up
00:32:43.560 and gone a totally different way with it, 0.99
00:32:46.000 but there is a truth here that we have to say that's, you know,
00:32:48.980 prosperity preaching is wrong.
00:32:51.140 Absolutely.
00:32:51.880 Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:52.780 prosperity preaching is wrong because what it does is it misunderstands instead of having a
00:32:59.420 good father who gives good gifts and that there being a normative pattern to those good gifts,
00:33:04.380 like that you see in the Proverbs things like whoever is diligent, whoever works diligently
00:33:11.340 will receive, you know, will be received wealth. Basically, I'm trying to make like trying to find
00:33:17.020 this. Oh yeah, here we go. Proverbs 10.4, a slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent
00:33:23.120 makes rich. So there's the principle. All right. So you understand that principle. God made a world
00:33:28.380 where a slack hand causes poverty, but if you work diligently, it tends to result in wealth where God
00:33:34.300 is a good father. He loves to bless his people. And as his people follow him and obey his laws
00:33:39.780 and his rules and live at peace with reality, that it tends to result in blessing that even
00:33:46.620 has a monetary side to it. Literally, like if you obey God's law, he delights to actually give
00:33:55.060 money to you. That's there. Even things like generosity in scripture, Jesus says,
00:34:01.860 give and it will be given back to you. Press down, shake and together, running over will be put into
00:34:05.080 your bosom. With the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. There are those principles
00:34:10.200 there. The prosperity gospel, gospelist, what they do is instead of a good father who gives
00:34:18.720 good gifts so that even when we obey him and, you know, are at peace with him and then we get
00:34:24.860 suffering, faith looks at that suffering and says, this is better. This is the best gift that God
00:34:31.480 could have given me right now. Okay. The prosperity gospelist can't say that because he's made faith
00:34:36.080 into an instrumental sort of, you know, to use Mark Driscoll's phrase, a stick, and he's made
00:34:41.960 God into a piñata. And if you whack the piñata of God with the stick of faith, then good things
00:34:47.340 fall out. So it's a manipulative. It's like the pagans who said, if I sacrifice enough blood,
00:34:53.300 the sun will come up, kind of view. Whereas a Christian understands the general pattern 0.99
00:34:58.280 and is preserved from those errors, the prosperity gospel ends up making the gifts into the God, 0.91
00:35:06.080 and God just the means to get their real God, right, with the stick of faith. And so everything's
00:35:11.840 just flattened out. You would then all of a sudden look at people who are ill and say, well,
00:35:15.880 you didn't have enough faith. People were poor, didn't have enough faith. But of course, the
00:35:19.980 scriptures have righteous poor people, righteous rich people, unrighteous rich people, and unrighteous
00:35:26.460 poor people. There's all four categories represented. And so wealth itself is not this
00:35:32.320 univariate equation by which you can measure the righteousness of a person. It doesn't work like
00:35:38.640 that. The world is more complex than that because God's providential plan is more complex than that.
00:35:44.840 What God is doing is much more intricate than that one-to-one sort of math. God is doing calculus
00:35:52.040 and prosperity gospelists make him do simple addition poorly.
00:35:56.980 And I think it's a really good point, Brian, because when we're talking about we have to deal
00:36:00.740 with wisdom, you know, with wealth in wisdom. Okay. That means that you're going to have to
00:36:06.060 do some calculus. Yeah. Right. We can't just have simplistic platitudes that we fall back on.
00:36:12.040 Right. We're actually going to have to think through these issues pretty carefully. Yes.
00:36:16.540 Jesus was poor and righteous. Jesus is not poor now. Some people make this mistake where they're
00:36:24.260 like, yeah, we got to be poor like Jesus. I'm like, right now? Somebody actually said that to
00:36:28.860 me they're like he's not poor right now Jesus owns nothing and I just responded I said Jesus
00:36:32.460 owns a cattle on a thousand hills literally he owns he owns everything all of it you included
00:36:37.380 by the way all kingdoms he's he's received Daniel 7 13 and 14 has happened he's been presented before
00:36:44.180 the ancient of days and he has received a kingdom which is everlasting and whose dominion will have
00:36:48.560 no limitation I mean so it's obviously too simple to try and veer into either of these ditches and
00:36:56.240 you will end up with errors. I think that, you know, Dan, you had talked about before we recorded
00:37:04.140 this episode and had even kind of written some notes here on some points that I think have also,
00:37:11.040 you know, illustrated one of the ways that we get this wrong. And it really starts to bring us into
00:37:17.120 our second point here that this failure of theology has made Christians who are very good 0.98
00:37:21.900 at getting conquered. You know, one of the ways, for example, that we've seen this, and maybe you 0.99
00:37:26.480 could speak to it more, is just, you know, we've learned and we've just kind of in a docile way 0.58
00:37:32.520 gone along with sending our women to work, to go and have two-income households. All of our women
00:37:39.080 are working. In one way, that's actually chasing wealth in a sinful way. It's fundamentally part 1.00
00:37:49.380 of it is getting this issue wrong. So, you know, maybe we could talk about that a little bit as
00:37:54.140 we move into this. Christians are very good at getting conquered section. Yeah. I think that's 1.00
00:37:57.620 a really, let me back up for a moment. Yeah, go ahead. So what I really think we should frame
00:38:03.980 that part of the conversation with, you know, women going back to work is the, due to the 0.76
00:38:09.960 teaching of the church, especially towards men that show up, you know, that are, there's not as
00:38:15.760 many men in churches yeah is is that uh ambition is actually also dirty oh yeah yeah ambition is
00:38:23.460 something that men should not have you know you should be uh meek you know and you should be lowly
00:38:31.000 yeah like you said like jesus but the way that they've pictured jesus is is more like the the
00:38:36.920 really you know pastel painting holding a lamb sort of jesus instead of the world conquering
00:38:43.240 king that like we said owns cattle on a thousand hills well and that's the reality too just to
00:38:48.880 interject that if you're going to be a successful business owner i think this is where the rub is
00:38:52.680 with the church too you got to kind of be a brave man you got to be a risk taker you got it you're
00:38:58.260 going to be the kind of man if you're really good at like say owning property running businesses
00:39:02.280 being successful in the economy it won't sit well with a lot of the priest type people because
00:39:09.320 they'll look at you and they say well you're like david out on the field shedding blood and i'm in
00:39:13.440 here in holy places offering sweet fragrant prayers and and there's a couple reasons for
00:39:19.220 that number one we've lost actually manly pastorates because pastors are also conquering
00:39:24.460 spiritually they're leading their people into spiritual warfare every week all those things
00:39:28.680 church militant but but i think what a lot of this to me comes down to is the guys who are
00:39:33.440 fall into the pietism trap.
00:39:35.860 You know, wealth is bad. 0.54
00:39:36.900 I don't go after it.
00:39:38.600 I mean, correct me if I'm wrong,
00:39:39.480 but let's get down to brass tacks. 0.75
00:39:41.120 These are lazy guys
00:39:42.020 who don't want to spill blood on the field. 0.79
00:39:44.720 Like, building a business,
00:39:46.340 I've done startups.
00:39:47.720 It's one of the hardest things
00:39:48.800 I've ever done in my life.
00:39:50.460 Yeah, they don't want to take risk.
00:39:51.900 It is so weighty,
00:39:53.160 and you're like,
00:39:54.180 I could pour a couple years of my life
00:39:55.740 into this thing,
00:39:56.220 and it might fail.
00:39:57.060 Yep.
00:39:58.300 And so a lot of guys are like,
00:40:00.140 Jesus wants me to watch Netflix
00:40:02.300 and spend every spare moment doing so while being calm and nice.
00:40:08.820 Meanwhile, like, yeah, if you're doing a startup,
00:40:11.300 if you're running all these businesses,
00:40:13.100 chances are you might lose your temper a time or two.
00:40:15.340 Yeah, and I think part of it,
00:40:16.260 you have to look at the state of the church,
00:40:18.740 the shepherds of the church, the pastors.
00:40:21.580 Ambition in a pastor can be a good thing
00:40:24.540 or it can be a bad thing, right?
00:40:25.860 Ambition is transient.
00:40:26.880 It just depends.
00:40:27.400 What are you ambitious for?
00:40:28.680 What's it aimed at?
00:40:29.180 Yeah, what's it aimed at?
00:40:30.280 But because we don't have the theological grounding to have good ambition, ambition ends up looking like the seeker-sensitive megachurches, multi-churches, franchise model churches, essentially just taking the corporate world, bringing it into the church because that's the only way that they know how to be ambitious.
00:40:47.760 And then they just multiply and make themselves like some Warren Buffett-esque CEO-type figure.
00:40:53.440 that's really what Willow Creek was
00:40:55.360 Bill Hybels would always talk about how he
00:40:57.160 I could cut it as a CEO anywhere
00:40:59.300 like that was really important to him
00:41:00.840 but I also think of books like Dave Harvey
00:41:03.080 I think he was still
00:41:05.580 Sovereign Grace at this point
00:41:06.820 but he wrote a book called Ambition
00:41:08.760 I think the book was overall pretty good
00:41:11.540 but one of the things that made me think of
00:41:13.380 is like we have to really wring our hands
00:41:15.840 to say like is it okay to be ambitious
00:41:17.720 like you have to do
00:41:19.680 all this like you know
00:41:20.820 cheese grater on your soul to get an answer
00:41:23.420 And the bottom line is, I feel comfortable saying to my kids, go get them.
00:41:27.640 Yeah.
00:41:27.860 One of my pastoral goals, I've actually said this from the pulpit.
00:41:31.120 It's been a minute.
00:41:31.780 I need to say it again.
00:41:33.100 One of my pastoral goals is to inflame in the men a desire and a passion for glory.
00:41:39.340 Yes.
00:41:39.780 Where they would understand rightly what glory is and what it's for.
00:41:43.460 It's not just their self-glorification.
00:41:45.520 The glory of a thing is that thing when it is at peace with what God has made it to be and do.
00:41:50.760 So a man is glorious when he is for Christ's crown and kingdom, loving his wife, raising children, loving his neighbor economically, which looks like expanding the economic pie.
00:42:05.820 Doing excellent work.
00:42:06.720 Doing excellent work that will cause him to stand before kings, being a courageous risk taker for the right things, being wise as serpent, innocent as a dove.
00:42:16.080 when a man has range like that, and then he applies those gifts which God has given him
00:42:23.300 in a way where he's not just saying, but anyone could look at his life and say,
00:42:28.540 that guy is trying to take two talents that God gave him and return 10 to his king. That's what
00:42:33.160 he's trying to do. And that man will win glory. He won't win the false glory that comes from men.
00:42:39.140 That's not what he's aiming for. But he might win proper honor from other men. He might win
00:42:43.900 respect of other men, but he's ultimately not aiming to build his own kingdom. He's aiming to
00:42:48.920 build God's kingdom. But sometimes people think they mistake hard masculine risk-taking courageous
00:42:57.120 vocational work, and they mistake it for babble building categorically, like where all of that
00:43:02.600 is necessarily babble building. It's like, no, it's not. We should want to raise our sons not to
00:43:09.260 be lazy, worthless blobs of, of, you know, grown men who were like, well, at least I never 0.72
00:43:16.080 accomplished something and risked being proud. Well, you know, that's the interesting thing. 0.98
00:43:20.800 Cause I remember like my teenage years being in church, we would always hear things about like,
00:43:25.600 Hey, you know, don't be a workaholic. Stop thinking your career's everything. Almost never
00:43:30.740 were you like, dude, get off your mom's basement couch, stop watching Marvel movies and go do
00:43:36.400 something. Your family's really struggling because you're making $26,000 a year and you want to have
00:43:41.100 five kids and have your wife stay at home. And you're telling your wife, her grocery budget is
00:43:45.300 $217 a month to feed five kids. Dude, you're, you're denying the faith. You need to go make
00:43:52.040 more money. Like, and I know there are situations people always throw the asterisk. They'll be like,
00:43:57.340 what about the guy who lost both feet in an accident at the mill? And one of his eyes got
00:44:02.920 poked out you know when he was getting the mail for his wife when she was pregnant and and then 1.00
00:44:08.880 after that he got a traumatic brain injury and he was uh you know an idiot and so uh you're being 1.00
00:44:15.400 a legalist like no paul says a man who doesn't provide for his family has denied the faith and 1.00
00:44:19.980 is worse than an unbeliever so therefore provide for your family he's talking about money guys
00:44:24.860 like he's actually talking about feeding people yeah so i will say just as a preface to that sure 1.00
00:44:30.000 I will give an asterisk because in the world we live in, you have to be aware of the world we live in.
00:44:35.840 And your salaried income, you take home 50% of what you actually earn.
00:44:41.840 And when you actually factor in property taxes, gas taxes, food taxes, all the taxes, just the breathing tax, you take home very little.
00:44:51.080 So the government is making it very, very difficult for you to exist and to support your family, especially on one income.
00:44:58.620 But that's not an excuse.
00:45:00.940 No, it's an explanation.
00:45:02.000 That's an explanation.
00:45:03.400 It's just knowing that information actually should make you able to succeed.
00:45:08.740 So that's thorns and thistles.
00:45:11.040 You live in a cursed world.
00:45:12.640 A cursed world isn't just that the ground will bring forth weeds.
00:45:15.940 It's also that people will be weeds.
00:45:18.740 So you'll have to deal with cursed, sinful people.
00:45:22.260 So Paul wouldn't look at like, for example, a family being carried off into captivity in Babylon by the invading empire when they were, you know, a faithful covenant member and say, why aren't you providing for your family? You're worse than an unbeliever. I'm not saying that. And that is a good, again. 1.00
00:45:40.060 No, I know that's not what you're saying. It doesn't mean, though, it doesn't absolve you of a responsibility. That's just an excuse. But it's reality. And so you need to have that information in mind and use ambition to say, OK, now that I know this, there are tax codes. Why do the wealthy people not pay taxes? Why, when Mitt Romney was running for president, did he only pay 13 percent in taxes? Why didn't Trump want to disclose his tax statements? It's because they don't pay taxes because they know how to work the system.
00:46:07.640 Yeah. And so knowing that you should be able to figure that out, which is one of our applications later, but you should be able to game the system and be like, as you know, crafty.
00:46:17.540 It's like, you know, someone says, Hey, you know, to get into the, this unit in the military, this combat unit you want to join, you got to be able to run a six minute mile. And you're like, okay, great train. I can do my six minute mile. And then they say, Oh, you show up to run the mile for the test. Like, Oh, with a 40 pound weight vest on.
00:46:32.360 Oh, okay. That's another factor. You're running the six minute mile with a 50% weight belt on
00:46:39.220 to mix my metaphors here. You just are because you're being robbed in a way that is five times
00:46:44.980 worse. Literally. I mean, then the, the tyrannical situation that God warned them about when he said
00:46:51.080 your Kings will demand a tithe of your money, a 10% tax. If you have the Kings, like the nation
00:46:57.200 surrounding you and now we're like 5x that with 50 in taxes is this where we get to talk about
00:47:03.280 the people and the usury and should i i'll leave that one out so that'll be after hours no i what
00:47:09.300 we were talking about was women and and work yeah you know i'm glad you guys brought this up because
00:47:13.160 this is a theological error that has led a feminacy in men is a theological error um as
00:47:19.080 well as just teaching training men to not have ambition it's a trained thing it's a virtue well
00:47:24.100 Well, and that's what I was going to say, you know, bringing this all around.
00:47:27.240 I think what we really have to get at is that pastors and churches need to,
00:47:32.740 number one, understand what men are facing.
00:47:34.340 So like understanding inflation, understanding what you're saying to men
00:47:38.760 when you're saying, hey, you got to be a sole breadwinner so mom can come home.
00:47:44.300 What are some actual ways you can make that happen?
00:47:46.800 Because, you know, maybe working entry-level retail is not going to get that done.
00:47:50.780 Right.
00:47:50.880 But when we say to our men, and you have to pastorally, when you say to your men, you need to make more money, I think it would be another thing to be able to point them in the right direction with small business owners and resources and say, look, if you're faithful in a small thing, we can train you, we can teach you, we can help you, we can assist you so that you can get to a place where you're making more money.
00:48:12.720 And I think this is where a lot of men get discouraged is because a lot of pastors, A, they don't understand what men are facing.
00:48:18.860 Right.
00:48:19.560 And then they just say, well, you know,
00:48:21.080 as long as you have a really good devotional time in the morning, though.
00:48:23.340 Oh, yeah.
00:48:24.060 But we do have to actually deal with inflation.
00:48:27.260 You're going to have to.
00:48:28.420 And here's what I've realized, too.
00:48:30.040 And as my life has progressed and I've spent more time around millionaire,
00:48:33.660 billionaire types, I've realized they're in that position
00:48:38.240 and they think differently about life and they're able to build wealth.
00:48:41.160 So, like, right now, there are millionaires who are not even concerned
00:48:45.540 about the inflation so much as they're like, you know,
00:48:48.200 I've had several of them tell me like, look, God is doing a great work. Like we need to see where
00:48:51.900 he's moving and invest our resources and build. Yeah. Which to me was crazy because it's like,
00:48:56.820 wait, you're not crying about gas. Wait, you're not. You're right. So I think a lot of this too
00:49:01.140 is about training men with the right mindset. This is not the time to retreat. This is the time to
00:49:05.980 say, what can we be building to create and generate wealth? Yeah. In times of fear, it's
00:49:10.900 especially important to be courageous and bold. Yes. And so the wealthy see these things that
00:49:16.400 would scare us, like gas prices going
00:49:18.500 up or inflation happening.
00:49:20.800 Opportunities. Opportunity.
00:49:22.360 Exactly. That's information. People got
00:49:24.460 wealthy during the Depression. Absolutely.
00:49:26.660 They built their wealth through the Depression. Well, the rich
00:49:28.300 get rich during recessions. Yes.
00:49:30.840 Is the old trope. So
00:49:32.340 one of the things with
00:49:34.140 this effeminate
00:49:35.840 teaching that we've had in the church.
00:49:38.460 Are you talking about the Fed?
00:49:41.700 Effedimate?
00:49:42.520 The effedimate. And when we say
00:49:44.480 federal, we don't mean like federal theology, like covenant theology. We mean, um, people
00:49:50.100 have appointed themselves the federal head of humanity and rob all of us by debasing
00:49:54.540 the currency. That's a word. Yeah. So, so getting back to my, my, my main point, thank
00:49:59.520 you for that. You're welcome. You're welcome. What is that? What, what is the idealized job
00:50:02.880 then for these pastors, you know, that are, that are training your men? What is the ideal
00:50:06.860 job? And we live around Hill Air Force Base. And so, and the military industrial complex
00:50:12.700 that supports it. That's correct. And so the ideal job is to work for the government or for
00:50:16.820 a government contractor because you have almost no risk there. Cast iron benefits. Very difficult
00:50:22.300 to get fired. You don't even actually have to work. Yeah. You have a benefits package that's
00:50:27.120 worth conservatively in today's day, $40,000 or $60,000 a lot of the time. By the time you actually
00:50:32.300 add it up, if you were to go and get it yourself. Pensions are in the millions. Yeah. By the time
00:50:36.580 you're done, you work your 20 years. Very hard to get fired. My dad did 20 years in the Air Force,
00:50:42.420 20 years in the government after that. And he's a hard worker. He's a, he's a guy who's rises to
00:50:46.960 the top and ends up leading people wherever he goes. And it's like, you know, he's talked so
00:50:52.620 many times about how like Eric, you've, you've led organizations now where one of the ways that
00:51:00.100 you've improved organizations is by firing people. Big time. You may not do that in the government.
00:51:05.840 No, not. So it's the perfect ideal, platonic ideal of a job for this kind of risk averse safetyism mindset. And we're saying safety third.
00:51:18.780 Yeah. And the other thing that I would say is when you think about the church, part of this is when all your people are trained as men and leaders by the bureaucracy, corporate or government.
00:51:28.420 one of the problems you tend to find is that then your elders become these risk averse bureaucrats
00:51:33.280 right you're actually safer if you just kick things up the chain or you pass the buck to
00:51:37.860 somebody else and so i think that one of the things when we're talking about wealth we're
00:51:42.540 also talking about the kind of men that we're going to raise in a community because i can tell
00:51:45.880 you as a small business owner when you have 15 people 20 people 30 people whose lives and families
00:51:52.500 depend on you getting things together and things have to work and your products have to be delivered
00:51:57.140 around time and your services do as well. There's a weight of responsibility. You become a different
00:52:02.260 kind of man. Yeah. And always think about that. There's a line in the Aeneid where he says down
00:52:06.840 deep, they harden fast. Meaning when you're deep in the fires of hell, going through trials, men
00:52:13.100 harden. Yeah. And so in all of this, we're really talking about wealth is about the men who build
00:52:18.620 it, right? And what they build it for. Yep. And if I think you do it right and you train your men
00:52:23.260 right to be wealth builders that's one of the ways you're going to get hard men that's right
00:52:27.620 i think we need to make a t-shirt that's just an eric khan profile picture like a portrait and
00:52:33.680 profile that just says it's like in the aeneid yes as the caption yeah i think so we'll get our
00:52:38.640 designers so so just finishing up this this thing that i keep getting interrupted in you know sorry
00:52:43.920 gloriously thank you for that is that like your life but yeah the thing is it's happening right
00:52:47.920 now would you stop interrupting me while i am interrupting you the the idea of just like keeping
00:52:53.500 your head down taking the safe job yeah taking the corporate job or the government job or whatever
00:52:59.580 is that functionally what you're doing if you do work is that you are building the house of pagans
00:53:05.980 by playing it safe you're building somebody else's house you're building somebody else's house
00:53:09.980 you end up being a slave to a pagan lord who is building wealth and you're back but it's a lot
00:53:16.920 easier it is a heck of a lot easier to do that there's no risk right brian we were talking about
00:53:22.940 this the other day with one of our friends trent um but we were talking about how the when you when
00:53:28.600 you start a business for example like the energy units right we're yes it's astronomical how much
00:53:36.000 energy it takes so really that's the other thing that like we're calling men to is yeah we have to
00:53:42.300 do that. If we're going to build parallel economy outside of this, working for the pagan masters.
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00:54:58.480 i think it's it is important though because and we'll talk about this later
00:55:06.420 is the what what are you using wealth for or what are you working for is a really important thing so
00:55:12.820 andrew isker in our interview he said something that i thought was really good
00:55:16.480 if you work for a corporate job you work for a pagan you you're you're making you know really
00:55:22.020 good money at a government contractor yeah it doesn't mean you're sinning necessarily i mean 0.91
00:55:27.380 you just have to be honest like okay what i'm doing here is i am plundering egypt yes like
00:55:33.060 i'm taking money they're giving me a salary and i'm going to turn it into building the kingdom
00:55:37.880 yeah and and that's the point when when jesus tells the parable i think it's i'm speaking off
00:55:43.140 the cuff here so i might be off in my details but i think when jesus tells the parable of the
00:55:48.180 dishonest manager he talks about how you can use basically like filthy lucre like mammon like money
00:55:54.740 This kind of like wealth that has been, you know, it's dirty. 0.51
00:55:59.920 It's gone through like, and actually that's all wealth, by the way.
00:56:02.720 It's all touched by sin somewhere.
00:56:04.600 Corruption somewhere.
00:56:05.160 And they use it for the kingdom of God, like, right? 1.00
00:56:09.140 Egyptians. 1.00
00:56:10.440 Jesus is kind of lamenting in this parable that the sons of this age, 0.89
00:56:14.520 he's talking about like these pagans, these absolute sinners are so cunning.
00:56:19.580 Like they can turn a profit on literally anything. 0.74
00:56:22.660 this dishonest manager he's getting fired and so he starts writing off debts for all the
00:56:27.580 millionaires that owe his master money so that he'll be like somebody will take a big chungus 0.87
00:56:32.320 in the court wherever he goes he doesn't want to dig ditches he doesn't want to dig they're like 0.90
00:56:36.360 he's like i'm too old i'm too i i'm i'm a weakling i can't dig ditches like what am i gonna do 0.95
00:56:41.140 i'm gonna ingratiate myself with every millionaire in town and yeah he becomes the big chungus of 0.90
00:56:47.200 the court. I'm surprised you got the big chunk. That was for Ben. Well, so Proverbs 12, you had 1.00
00:56:58.560 read Proverbs 10. I'm trying to class this up. You make it so hard. The hand of the diligent
00:57:04.040 will rule while the slothful will be put to forced labor. Yeah. That's in the Bible guys. 0.61
00:57:10.140 Like God said that. I just, I just wanted to tie it into your dishonest manager thing. Cause he's
00:57:16.140 like, wait a minute. I don't want to dig ditches. Yeah. I don't want my hand to be put to forced
00:57:21.480 labor. So he was diligent and granted like, and that was the point though, is that Jesus was
00:57:26.900 saying like, how much more should the sons of light, should Christians be cunning and righteous?
00:57:33.940 Like not to be, I'm not saying go start a confidence game in like a mafia in your local 0.94
00:57:40.040 area and be like, they told the King's hall, they told us that we should just go get rich by whatever
00:57:44.660 means necessary. So I started selling insurance to people and threatening to burn their businesses
00:57:50.940 down if they didn't pay me. So I mean, it worked. I'm very wealthy now. No, you need to understand
00:57:55.700 what wealth is for. Another proverb that I think is very important. You've already mentioned this,
00:58:00.160 this principle, Proverbs 21, 17, whoever loves pleasure will be a poor man. He who loves wine
00:58:04.880 and oil will not be rich. Like these dudes that Eric's talking about that are like a lot of them,
00:58:09.760 some of them inherit their money from family, you know, whatever. But a lot of these guys who start
00:58:13.520 businesses and you know they end up with a hundred million dollars in their 40s because of their wise
00:58:18.160 management and cunning stewardship it's like they're driving trucks that look like pastor
00:58:22.680 dan's truck and that's not a compliment it's not a nice vehicle no it's it's not it's not if i've
00:58:28.800 had to take the engine apart multiple times right like if or may they don't they don't stoop as low
00:58:34.340 as to drive the toyota sienna that i had my wife driving for a while to be fair it looked better
00:58:40.520 when I, when, when we started using it, it was, it was us. So, so I want to, I want to transition
00:58:45.440 a little bit. So, so we've kind of tangentially discussed this idea of like, well, Christians
00:58:50.960 should be going out and taking dominion and starting businesses and taking risks. And we're 0.74
00:58:57.620 going to talk more about that practically, how to, how to start, how to take the first step
00:59:01.820 in a little bit, but I've heard this criticism. So I said, you know, if you're, if you're playing
00:59:07.920 And it's safe. You're working in the corporate world and you're just trying to keep your head down just so that you can get home, watch Netflix, you know, buy a nice car, go on a nice vacation just so that you can retire and live, you know, just die, you know, in Florida on the beaches. Don't waste your life, John Piper.
00:59:25.620 Anyway, so I've heard some people say that there is no such thing as a Christian business.
00:59:32.160 Because I've said there's pagan businesses.
00:59:34.060 Yeah.
00:59:34.400 I'm also saying there are Christian businesses.
00:59:36.460 Right.
00:59:36.880 And there are some people that just like, no, that's actually not a thing.
00:59:39.840 There is no such thing as a Christian business.
00:59:41.920 Have you ever heard this? 1.00
00:59:43.400 Oh, man.
00:59:44.040 People say this about...
00:59:44.880 This is R2K stuff?
00:59:45.580 Yeah. 1.00
00:59:45.980 It's like, there's no such thing as a Christian nation. 0.99
00:59:47.740 There's no such thing as a Christian business.
00:59:49.160 And they're like, because a Christian is a regenerate human being.
00:59:52.700 I'm like, listen, guys, you, you can use the word Christian as an adjective.
00:59:59.300 Like it's, you can do that.
01:00:01.100 Like we do that.
01:00:01.780 There's such thing as Christian ethics and non-Christian ethics.
01:00:04.680 There is such thing as a Christian business. 0.77
01:00:06.440 And we're not saying that the business is a regenerate human being.
01:00:11.620 We're using the word like a normal word.
01:00:14.040 I get so annoyed by this criticism.
01:00:15.900 So the business is regenerate?
01:00:17.400 It's such a, it's such a midwit take where they're just like, I'm so smart. 0.97
01:00:21.200 I have 110 IQ.
01:00:22.700 there's no technically a christian is a regenerate human being and i'm technically correct which is 1.00
01:00:29.120 the best kind of correct so therefore you're an idiot checkmate theo bro and i'm like you know 1.00
01:00:34.820 what you're such an idiot christian can be used as an adjective like it makes me it nobody says 1.00
01:00:41.760 that like oh that that sacrifice was demonic oh no it's not demonic it was just a sacrifice 1.00
01:00:47.320 Demons are ancient, maleficent, undying
01:00:50.700 Spiritual beings, fallen angels
01:00:52.220 They're not sacrifices, therefore it can't be a demonic
01:00:54.540 Sacrifice
01:00:54.980 Nobody does that
01:00:57.700 It's like toast versus French toast
01:01:00.620 No, they're not 0.68
01:01:01.820 There's no such thing as French
01:01:02.780 Toast is bread that's been baked
01:01:06.040 Again
01:01:07.240 Actually when my toast is burned
01:01:09.140 I just call it French-Canadian toast 0.99
01:01:11.580 Is this guy French-Canadian or Chippewa? 1.00
01:01:13.640 Oh yes 1.00
01:01:14.680 Because you guys are always burning
01:01:16.520 more jokes okay what we're talking about here is one of the reasons i'm going to tie this in so
01:01:23.660 beautifully if you guys are ready for this segue it's going to be like a perfectly cut dovetail
01:01:26.920 joint by brandon dyer dovetail king of carpenter king of maine whatever his name is literally gave
01:01:31.420 him that name so i should know this is my segue this is one of the reasons why christians are so
01:01:35.300 good at getting conquered is because they're like business that's that's not a part of the kingdom
01:01:40.540 that's out there in the common kingdom like just go do whatever that's like natural law don't
01:01:46.440 bring the Bible into this stuff. Like it doesn't really matter to the, you know, the advance of
01:01:51.960 the Christian mission. The Great Commission has nothing to do with wealth, money, and space.
01:01:56.000 That's just no way I could covenant stuff. Go do your thing. And this is one of the, this is quite
01:02:01.920 frankly, one of the reasons that Christianity, that Christians of late have been so adept,
01:02:07.340 like our spiritual gift. If we took the spiritual gift test, it would say you have the spiritual
01:02:12.180 gift of being conquered by pagans.
01:02:15.600 That's your
01:02:16.120 spiritual gift. Yeah, I think it only
01:02:18.060 works when you're living
01:02:19.600 in the lap of luxury.
01:02:21.960 Exactly. And ease and pleasure.
01:02:23.640 So at some point, and we're starting to see this
01:02:25.800 through the last couple years,
01:02:27.860 people were pushed
01:02:30.060 up against the wall, and it's like you had to make choices.
01:02:32.760 And I think the best way out of this
01:02:34.060 is honestly just to read the Bible 0.75
01:02:35.900 like a blue-collar Christian. 0.82
01:02:37.760 And what I mean by that is
01:02:39.060 I feel like intellectuals all the time are outsmarting
01:02:41.880 themselves. Yeah. Like, of course you can be a Christian business. You can run it on Christian
01:02:46.720 principles and be faithful to God in your business. Well, I'm a Christian and I only
01:02:50.540 hire Christians and we operate Christianly. Yeah, exactly. And we use our money to do 0.99
01:02:55.440 Christian stuff. Yeah, exactly. You're a Christian business. I think just in a blue
01:02:58.900 collar way, you can be like, look, at face value, we can obviously do that. Yeah. And
01:03:03.120 like Brian said, sometimes the best thing we can do is just sneer at people and say, 1.00
01:03:06.460 you're an idiot. I mean, of course you can do that. And then we ignore them and then we build 1.00
01:03:12.520 our business. And then we just, we just say, oh, that's anyway. And then we just keep, we keep
01:03:17.300 building our Christian business. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Christians are wildly good at getting
01:03:22.100 conquered. Let's, let's talk a little bit more about this. Like when we're, when we're thinking 1.00
01:03:26.440 about like, what is the kind of economic thinking that gets you conquered? Well, yeah. If you don't
01:03:31.760 explicitly have the missio day in mind when you're doing a business, let's say you are a business
01:03:35.860 owner. And you're like, yeah, there is no such thing as a Christian business. And so I'm just
01:03:39.780 going to kind of operate based on my, you know, my MBA and, and, and, uh, whatever podcast you
01:03:46.160 listen to that's on business. And so you recruit like you would, uh, in, in some pagan industry.
01:03:52.280 And you, you, you have a certain, uh, mission statement that is fairly pagan. I mean, you are
01:04:01.040 being conquered the walls are down the pagans are in the building yeah and they're running the ship
01:04:07.160 you have just had mutiny orchestrated by yourself yes and so what ends up happening is that you will
01:04:16.300 lose the business you have no control then over the virtue of the business and what it's trying
01:04:22.240 to accomplish two two examples yeah two examples of this one of them again from a recent conversation
01:04:29.060 with Kings Hall Listener, who is a very successful businessman and from a family of success. So this
01:04:36.720 is kind of in his blood. And he was talking about a multi, I think it was a telecommunications
01:04:42.780 company that was very, I mean, medium-sized company in this world, but to us, huge, you know,
01:04:47.680 like quarter of a billion dollar company, right? That was Christian. Basically, they were Christians.
01:04:52.240 They had Bible verses on the wall. You walk in and you knew that you were in a space where
01:04:56.780 Christians were in charge. And the owners sold the company to Samsung. And the question that 0.99
01:05:04.160 was asked of these Christians who made a ton of money was, what are they going to do with the 0.62
01:05:08.980 walls? You made a bunch of money, great. And I'm sure you can do great things with that money, 0.89
01:05:15.380 not disparaging that, but the thing you built that was producing and could continue to produce
01:05:22.020 income and employ people and make a difference in the lives of many other Christians. 0.97
01:05:27.680 You just sold the pagans. Another example, and I'm not going to name names on any of these, but 1.00
01:05:32.280 a guy that built a business and like a very successful business. This is, these are real
01:05:38.140 examples, by the way, we're not making these up and hired a bunch of people in the community
01:05:42.900 to work at the business. You know, Christian men who were like, yes, finally we get to work for
01:05:48.660 this company that's a Christian company doing good work. And they weren't a Christian company 0.96
01:05:53.400 because they were selling Jesus junk because they were selling like Sunday school testament 0.59
01:05:58.020 rewards, you know, and like in a little mints with verses on them. And so they were just, 0.52
01:06:04.180 they were just providing. And this is what the economy is made out of people. It's made out of
01:06:09.300 human needs. It's the love of neighbor applied to providing your neighbor with things they need
01:06:14.760 and want that will improve their lives in an exchange that's mutually beneficial. That's the
01:06:19.100 economy. It's just the first, you know, the greatest commandments applied vocationally.
01:06:24.460 So built this business, tons of men working there in the community, whole community kind of,
01:06:29.660 you know, bullied up by it. Obviously the church is being benefited because here's these godly men
01:06:34.640 with good jobs that are providing for families and giving to the church and schools and all this
01:06:38.860 stuff's happening. And then, you know, the, the leadership of that company decided to sell it
01:06:44.080 again, decided to sell the company to pagans. It made a ton of money. And then everything seems
01:06:51.320 okay. Like, hey, this is a good sale. They're not going to fire all the Christians or anything.
01:06:55.740 Yeah, but then COVID happens. And guess what the big company that bought them did?
01:07:00.980 If you don't get the vax, you're in trouble. So all of a sudden, in an event that could not
01:07:08.220 easily have been just foreseen. You've got to believe that I think the people who sold this
01:07:14.460 business, I have in mind, regret that they did this. Because that's an example of Christians 1.00
01:07:19.220 getting conquered. Where you had this great thing that you had built with your blood, sweat, and 1.00
01:07:23.940 tears. Could have passed it on. And could have passed it on, could have continued to expand.
01:07:28.880 And look, I haven't built a business worth tens of millions of dollars. So I'm not claiming to
01:07:35.000 know all the temptations or even all of the ins and outs of all these decisions. But when Christians 1.00
01:07:40.940 think this time, these short-term five years instead of 500-year kind of things, as Dan wrote 0.98
01:07:45.520 in our notes, that's one way that I think Christians, that the type of men who will hear 0.98
01:07:51.220 this episode, and maybe some of you will build businesses like that, fully expect that to be the 0.70
01:07:55.060 case, but you got to be careful that you don't fumble the ball on the one-yard line, right? Don't
01:08:00.300 fumble the ball on the one yard line. Convert. And that means through the generations. 0.99
01:08:05.660 Yeah, that's really good. So I mean, we can move on from Christian businesses 1.00
01:08:09.260 to Christian families. So Christian families are really good at getting conquered as well. 0.82
01:08:14.400 We've talked about public schooling before. You want to get conquered, just send your 1.00
01:08:18.740 generations to the pagans to be discipled as a pagan. And surprise, they're pagans now,
01:08:23.920 and you've lost your generations. But another thing that people do is that they
01:08:30.160 They spend their inheritance, that is for the generations, not for them, not supposed to be for themselves, but they spend the inheritance of their grandchildren on themselves in some sort of retirement.
01:08:43.520 Or a nursing home.
01:08:44.620 Or in a nursing home.
01:08:45.680 Yeah, those are the two areas.
01:08:46.800 So you retire and you do your dream.
01:08:49.900 You do the RV across the country thing.
01:08:52.080 And, I mean, people are free to do these things.
01:08:53.820 Really, again, it's a principle.
01:08:55.680 It's a principle that needs to be applied.
01:08:57.020 It's the way you do it.
01:08:58.200 Yeah.
01:08:58.340 It's the way you do it.
01:08:58.860 Yeah, what are you doing this for?
01:08:59.860 So this inheritance for your generations are completely squandered on your RV trip across the U.S. or your riverboat tours in Europe or whatever the heck it is, get crazy.
01:09:13.560 It ends up being spent there.
01:09:15.060 And then when you get too old to do that, then you get put into a home because you don't want to inconvenience your kids or maybe your kids are unwilling to take you in.
01:09:22.000 And then the nursing home will bleed you absolutely dry.
01:09:25.320 20 grand a month until you have no money.
01:09:27.640 Can I play boomer's advocate here?
01:09:29.040 Yeah, I want to hear a boomer's advocate. 1.00
01:09:31.040 I earned that money, and I worked harder than you, you stupid millennial. 1.00
01:09:34.660 Because I've actually heard this. 1.00
01:09:36.300 Then I would say, I don't want your damn money. 0.99
01:09:38.560 I'll build my own kingdom. 0.99
01:09:40.560 The generations start with me, you will be forgotten.
01:09:43.860 But it is interesting.
01:09:44.960 I mean, it really gets into this issue of, well, part of it is, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's just selfishness.
01:09:52.060 I exist for me and my pleasure.
01:09:54.280 Well, yeah, it is selfishness.
01:09:56.040 It's also no instruction.
01:09:58.420 Yeah.
01:09:58.880 Like, how should you think?
01:10:01.060 Yeah, it's weird because I actually, so the first time, I had never heard about inheritance in the church in, I don't know, like 15 years, like seminary, we didn't talk about that.
01:10:09.880 The first time I had ever read about it was in a Joel Salatin book.
01:10:13.640 And I remember asking a friend about that.
01:10:15.740 I was like, do you think inheritance, like, do parents owe their kids inheritance?
01:10:20.540 Like, is that important?
01:10:21.700 Is that a good thing?
01:10:22.980 And he had me start reading, I think I was reading some stuff from, he just died actually.
01:10:27.500 but like Marshall Foster on generational thinking.
01:10:31.460 And Foster was talking about like, you know, 500 year plans.
01:10:37.080 He was talking about things like,
01:10:39.200 and I think he's influenced Doug Wilson, if I'm not mistaken.
01:10:42.180 How can you start thinking in terms of, okay,
01:10:44.820 when Abraham was given the promise to Moses,
01:10:48.480 400 years, somewhere in that ballpark? 0.67
01:10:50.940 Yeah, before his descendants were going to set foot in the land
01:10:54.480 and start conquering it, 400 years.
01:10:56.460 So you're talking about, like, well, you know, how many generations is that?
01:11:01.860 Ten.
01:11:02.300 Ten generations total.
01:11:04.060 Yeah, I mean, that's not something you're going to see in your own lifetime.
01:11:07.300 Yeah.
01:11:07.660 So I think it's that, too, getting people to think like this.
01:11:11.000 Yeah, it's as far away as my family immigrating to North America from France.
01:11:15.220 But me buying a $300,000 RV and going around the country is like—
01:11:19.260 Well, North America, okay, that's fair.
01:11:20.660 Canada to be— 0.97
01:11:21.540 The French ladies of the king that— 0.92
01:11:24.460 What? 0.65
01:11:24.580 Did you go to public school?
01:11:25.540 Of course I went to public school.
01:11:26.520 Okay, Canada is in North America.
01:11:27.340 Everybody knows Dan went to public school.
01:11:28.840 Canada, I don't want to mansplain this to you.
01:11:30.500 Canada is in North America.
01:11:31.700 Yeah, I know it's in, yeah, yeah.
01:11:33.240 I just wanted to, yeah. 0.99
01:11:34.000 You just wanted to call my ancestors prostitutes. 1.00
01:11:37.040 Prostitutes, yeah. 1.00
01:11:37.880 Yeah. 1.00
01:11:38.500 Anyway, moving on.
01:11:39.140 I like the fact that I got interrupted by Dan.
01:11:40.760 Now, we interrupted you, Aaron.
01:11:42.500 I got interrupted by Dan, who's always the interruptor.
01:11:45.840 They interrupted me.
01:11:46.420 Now he's the interruptee.
01:11:47.720 Now he's interrupting.
01:11:48.520 That's fair.
01:11:48.940 I will take that criticism.
01:11:49.660 No, no, you're the interruptee.
01:11:51.160 He's the interrupter.
01:11:52.160 Okay, keep going.
01:11:53.720 Let's settle this in the parking lot.
01:11:55.540 i don't want to fight i said i would accept that responsibility and that accusation dang it dan
01:12:01.320 just took responsibility i own it dang it so really cuts the feet out we were talking about
01:12:05.100 rvs new cars um really crappy patio homes you know what in defense of boomers yeah when you've been
01:12:12.480 taught wrong wrong theology it will lead to wrong to wrongo praxis like you will not practice rightly 0.75
01:12:19.460 and then when you're taught wrongly it's highly likely that your children will be disciples since
01:12:24.020 they were discipled by you, they will also be thinking wrongly. And so they will not be the
01:12:27.940 type of people that are also thinking rightly about wealth, money, space. So you're like,
01:12:31.680 why would I give them an inheritance of productive assets? They don't know what to do. It'd be like
01:12:36.360 the dog that caught the fire truck. He's like, what do I do with it? So it gets amplified through
01:12:42.760 the generations if you don't think rightly about this. I want to ask a pastoral question. You know,
01:12:47.220 you guys are my pastors. Did you know that? I am aware. You are a member of the church and I am
01:12:52.760 your pastor every day i get up i say in the mirror you are eric khan's pastor today is the day to be
01:12:58.140 a hard man you got to be a hard man that's actually that's actually terrifying or he will
01:13:04.480 not respect you so then i i say i'm gonna record myself doing that in the morning i say you will
01:13:09.760 eat the meats you will lift the weights you will parent your children you will you will take
01:13:15.440 dominion today you won't eat the bugs i won't live in the pod it's how i hype myself up you
01:13:20.160 will live in a spacious Rambler style
01:13:22.260 house with 4,000 square feet
01:13:24.260 and a garden
01:13:26.140 growing in your backyard. You will have a wife 0.87
01:13:28.140 that wears a dress. You will impregnate her. 1.00
01:13:30.100 You will get the ducks 0.78
01:13:32.060 from the park. I have
01:13:34.040 400 ducks.
01:13:35.800 They don't want you to know the ducks are pretty.
01:13:38.080 If I let my ducks go, I will have
01:13:40.000 400 ducks. Did I tell you guys? I sold
01:13:41.960 almost 40 ducks last year
01:13:43.900 just for babies. Dan is the meme.
01:13:46.560 He's been stealing ducks from
01:13:48.040 the park for years.
01:13:50.160 Okay, I didn't know that was a thing, by the way.
01:13:52.880 So in 2012, I emailed Weber County Park System because I was walking through the parks and
01:14:00.820 I'm like, there's so many dang domestic ducks in here.
01:14:03.760 Can I take the ducks?
01:14:05.480 You asked forgiveness, not permission.
01:14:08.500 I have the email.
01:14:09.680 Yeah, I should have just taken it.
01:14:10.640 Did they say, sir, of course you may not catch the ducks.
01:14:13.100 They never replied.
01:14:14.620 Which means yes.
01:14:15.420 I thought you were trolling them.
01:14:16.540 As far as I'm concerned, that's permission.
01:14:19.140 I mean, that was 10 years ago.
01:14:20.540 What were we talking about?
01:14:21.620 I have no idea.
01:14:22.360 Yeah, so I was going to ask a pastoral question.
01:14:25.460 Can you go ahead and ask?
01:14:27.820 Hey, Eric.
01:14:28.240 That was rich, though.
01:14:28.900 Eric, as your pastor, go ahead.
01:14:31.720 Oh, yeah.
01:14:32.420 I'd like to hear this.
01:14:33.320 Thank you.
01:14:33.700 Very soothed by your therapist voice.
01:14:35.200 Let me get my pastor voice out.
01:14:37.340 Eric, I want you to ask me the question.
01:14:42.020 Yes, 911, I'd like to report a murder. 0.58
01:14:45.540 I'm about to murder a guy.
01:14:47.000 Please come quickly.
01:14:48.040 No, but in all seriousness, one of the questions that I've had guys ask me a lot, because I see this a lot happening, not so much boomers who are like, hey, how do I get my kids to buy into this multi-generational view? 0.90
01:15:01.260 But what I've heard a lot of is guys in younger generations saying, hey, I really want this, but then I go talk to my boomer parents, and they're like, screw you guys.
01:15:14.680 I'm just going to go to the golf course.
01:15:16.280 right how do you counsel that guy because part of it is like well we can't kidnap our parents and
01:15:21.680 no if you're in that situation we we've we've had this conversation with so many families in church
01:15:27.220 young men young families like what do i do to my parents who just they they're christians but and
01:15:32.660 and they really they are christians they're members in churches they're you know but they just they
01:15:37.220 are classically discipled in the the boomerism you know so what do i do and and what what i tell
01:15:45.420 them like relentlessly is you need to remember what your duties are to your parents. They're
01:15:52.100 responsible for their duties to you. If they fail in those duties, you don't respond as they're
01:15:57.520 inferior because you are. We're Presbyterians. Like we believe in superior, inferior relationships
01:16:04.080 where in a genuine sense, in a hierarchical sense, my parents, my in-laws are in a position
01:16:11.840 of superiority to me where honor is due in one direction in a way it's not due in the other
01:16:17.420 direction. They have their own commands, but I have this command to honor them. And so I don't
01:16:22.800 honor my parents by becoming really rude to them and theologically know it all to them. And like,
01:16:29.420 well, you guys are just boomer. Okay. Boomer, like just being absolutely sinful and disrespectful
01:16:34.500 to them, even when they're wrong in, and I'm not talking about like, if they're like, there are
01:16:41.160 really terrible parents that you should not trust. And there's valid times to cut off parents even,
01:16:46.000 and that can, to protect your own children and things like that. But I'm just talking about
01:16:49.640 these run-of-the-mill disagreements where they don't see it. You honor them and you do what Dan
01:16:54.320 said. You said, okay. And you say this in your heart and your soul and your family, you get this
01:16:57.920 right. We're going to take ground on this issue that my parents never did. Because they weren't
01:17:05.360 discipled to think rightly about this. They're not thinking rightly about this. But as for me and my
01:17:09.800 children, I'm going to tell them, son, daughter, mom and dad are working for your children's
01:17:17.120 inheritance, right? Not for you to depend on, for your children to receive, right? And so you need
01:17:24.260 to get to work on their children's inheritance. Like, I just think you take the ball and you
01:17:31.220 take the handoff in the generation and you keep going and you honor them. You don't publicly
01:17:36.860 disparage them. You don't try to wear them down or like belittle them. I think you don't. A lot
01:17:42.600 of the time, this looks like not forcing every conversation to just kind of like be about how
01:17:47.960 you think they're wrong about everything. That's just a really good way of dishonoring your parents
01:17:51.960 and ending up with a really terrible relationship that is your fault. Yeah, you're sinning. You're
01:17:57.360 actually just sinning. And God says, do you want to live long in the land? Honor your father and
01:18:01.940 mother. He doesn't say, do you want to live long in the land? If your parents get everything right,
01:18:05.740 honor them well like what parents would end up getting honor you you certainly wouldn't yeah
01:18:11.220 like we want our children to honor us even though hopefully standing on our shoulders
01:18:15.360 they'll see farther than we did like i fully expect my children and dan's children and your
01:18:20.320 children to take ground that we never even thought about and they're like well this is the obvious
01:18:25.040 next thing to do and that wasn't even possible that's genius i would i would have never done
01:18:30.380 that and probably couldn't have, you know, but they will, Lord willing. So I think it's pretty
01:18:35.900 simple. You honor your father and mother. That's good. Yeah. I think that really ties into the
01:18:41.020 conclusion where like, what do you do? Because honoring your father and mother is actually a
01:18:45.520 really good place to start. I know we've talked about it in the past, but one of the best ways
01:18:50.000 is to recognize, even with the faults of your father and mother and the sins that they had
01:18:55.920 committed and their shortcomings is that you are who you are because of them. And so any blessings
01:19:01.960 that you have are usually because of your parents and your upbringing. And so it's best to dwell on
01:19:08.640 those things rather than their shortcomings. And why hasn't my father given me a million dollars
01:19:15.720 worth of rental properties in order to manage? And you can start lamenting that. And it ends up
01:19:20.860 actually being really effeminate and gay because you're not taking responsibility. You just wish 1.00
01:19:25.700 that something had happened. And so what are the things that you need to do? Honor your father
01:19:32.080 and mother. Well, in order to do that, you need to be a self-controlled man. You need to have
01:19:37.140 self-control. A self-controlled man is not a man that makes excuses. A self-controlled man is not
01:19:42.500 one that blames other men or other people for their problems. So what is a self-controlled man?
01:19:48.140 i think it helps to just by the way identify like what is a man maybe that would be helpful
01:19:55.680 what is a man what is a man yeah oh yeah this is a tough one what is it what is a man yeah i don't
01:20:00.960 know don't ask your your t your uh i'm not a biologist yeah i think i'm not 100 sure
01:20:07.680 let's edit that out let's edit that question out i don't know if we have an answer
01:20:11.400 oh boy what is a man no you're right you do need to start with it we're thinking about this in
01:20:17.040 terms of, as is often helpful, these expanding spheres where you're an individual man or woman,
01:20:27.040 okay, you have duties before God in that vocation. As a man or a woman, then you're maybe a father,
01:20:33.020 a mother, a husband, a wife, okay, that's another, you're this person nestled in this bigger sphere
01:20:38.200 being a father, mother, husband, wife. Then you're nestled in this other sphere being a churchman,
01:20:42.600 church woman where you are one of God's covenant people participating in a local church and good
01:20:48.380 membership. And then you go out and you have duties as a citizen. You kind of go out in these
01:20:54.760 spheres and you can begin to understand, I think, and get your assignment. Discover your job
01:21:01.140 description that God gives you rather than inventing it yourself in each of those spheres
01:21:05.980 can honestly just be really helpful. I think there's two levels or stratums to this thing
01:21:12.420 where on the one hand, we have all the general principles.
01:21:15.060 Men are supposed to provide and protect.
01:21:17.200 Genesis 2.15, we're made in the image of God.
01:21:19.660 Man comes from the root word for fear, courage.
01:21:22.440 Men are supposed to be courageous.
01:21:24.060 So you start with these general principles,
01:21:26.420 and then I think, Brian, a lot of what you're saying,
01:21:28.120 then you go out in the real world, and you figure out,
01:21:30.580 okay, I've got to be those things, but if you're Eric,
01:21:33.960 it might be that you're a writer.
01:21:35.900 If you're Dan, it might be that you're really good at marketing.
01:21:38.880 Whatever it is, or business.
01:21:40.760 or you'll find those areas where you have your niche.
01:21:44.080 But I think fundamental to everything
01:21:45.260 and why self-control and discipline is so important here
01:21:47.700 is because if you can't take care of your body,
01:21:52.980 if you can't get to bed on time,
01:21:54.280 if you can't sleep well and keep a schedule,
01:21:57.800 if you can't discipline what you put in your body,
01:22:00.900 none of this even matters.
01:22:02.940 So I would just say, as I've always said on my podcast,
01:22:05.760 just go to the basic bedrock things.
01:22:08.360 Discipline equals freedom.
01:22:10.180 Start with things like a daily exercise.
01:22:14.060 Start with things like caloric intake.
01:22:16.300 Start with your bank account and your budgeting.
01:22:18.800 Because trust me, if you can't budget your own finances,
01:22:22.300 you cannot run a business unless you work for the U.S. government.
01:22:25.700 And then you probably are doing pretty solid because you just get more and more debt.
01:22:28.240 You'll be in charge of other people then.
01:22:29.660 Yeah, exactly.
01:22:30.420 Teaching them how not to run a business.
01:22:31.740 If you spend money poorly, you'll be in charge.
01:22:34.660 But I would say, yeah, you have to self-control yourself in those personal economic ways.
01:22:39.360 Yes.
01:22:39.980 Yeah.
01:22:40.100 The way I had written that was you need to have the basics in the basics category.
01:22:43.520 Yes.
01:22:44.160 You know, so, so those are some of the basic things of like what, what forms a man.
01:22:47.980 Another thing I would put into that category is that, so men are made to take dominion.
01:22:52.780 Yeah.
01:22:53.180 Those are the marching orders.
01:22:54.420 Yep.
01:22:54.800 Be fruitful, multiply, take dominion.
01:22:57.380 Okay.
01:22:57.660 And so in order to take dominion, yeah, what that involves like, so if you were to walk
01:23:04.840 into the barren land and the order was take dominion over this you have to have an idea of
01:23:10.280 what that's supposed to look like yeah like what does that mean do i walk around in circles until
01:23:14.800 i've covered the whole like you know obviously it means more than that it means success look like
01:23:19.060 yeah what would success look like so i think it's really helpful to have certain principles
01:23:23.540 uh i've talked about it as like having a mission vision values those are like very corporate-y
01:23:28.460 sort of business terms, but I think applied to the man, having principles that you would die for
01:23:35.380 before capitulating are really vital to have. Certain things that I exist to do this thing,
01:23:43.540 this thing, and this thing, and I would die before I capitulate on any of those things.
01:23:48.220 And then you would use your time, money, wealth, and place to serve those principles.
01:23:52.220 Yes. And they are, again, the principles start with the basics in the basics category.
01:23:56.680 Like, God forbid you become a successful business person, it goes to your head, you cheat on your wife with the secretary, and then you're a wealthy loser.
01:24:07.300 Like, God forbid that you do something like that. 0.76
01:24:09.440 And you pass on generational curses instead of generational wealth.
01:24:12.320 You know, God forbid you succeed in building this durable, anti-fragile, productive property business, whatever it is, and then you sell it out to the pagans so you can go and have some fun vacations and just shoot your legacy in the foot. 0.98
01:24:26.680 Like, God forbid you don't disciple your children and you put all your time and all of your best strength into just building this wealth-producing thing, and then you fail to catechize and disciple your children and you lose them to an Absalom somewhere who's going to steal their hearts.
01:24:42.320 You know, God forbid you do those things, but once you have those kind of basics in here, getting really practical, I think, on this subject can be helpful because a lot of guys are probably looking at this. 0.87
01:24:54.000 they're like, I want to do this. I want to increase my income. I want to build productive
01:25:00.360 assets. I want to do this stuff. I don't know where to start. And I do think one of the most
01:25:05.680 practical places where a young man can start in thinking about this is just disciplining yourself
01:25:14.560 to think in two directions kind of all the time. One of them is, what did God give me? What did
01:25:21.900 he put in my hands? Your assets are going to be your skills too. What am I good at? Am I good at
01:25:29.200 talking? Am I good at words and communicating? Am I good at building? Am I good at doing that
01:25:34.720 assessment? Maybe you're a one-talent guy, five-talent guy, 10-talent guy, whatever it is.
01:25:39.160 Where is that? And then also, in an outward-facing way, saying, what are the needs of my neighbors?
01:25:48.560 what are the needs and wants of my neighbors that wouldn't be sinful, right? You know,
01:25:53.000 cause your neighbors have some wants that would be sinful to go out and provide for them. Your
01:25:57.700 neighbors want to look at porn. Don't, you know, don't be like, Oh, an economic opportunity. No,
01:26:02.140 what are the non-sinful, what are the righteous needs, the normal human needs that your neighbors
01:26:07.220 have or wants and needs that are, would be righteous to fulfill. And then you can start
01:26:11.160 to get out of this kind of like, um, trying to discover your Enneagram number and your like
01:26:16.400 spiritual gift survey will somehow magically tell you exactly what job to do. It's like, no.
01:26:22.160 Because then you're going to get the result. Your spiritual gift is being conquered.
01:26:25.580 Your spiritual gift is being conquered. It's like, no, if you instead go, well, okay, I am
01:26:30.760 really good at managing people. I'm really good at it. So I might not be really good at doing
01:26:37.320 some trade or something like that, but maybe I'm really good. Well, that's a great skill.
01:26:40.700 So maybe I'll build a business and say, I'm going to use like the least glamorous business idea I've
01:26:45.060 ever had, which is port-a-potty rentals. Maybe you're like, our area has a lot of construction
01:26:50.540 going on all the time, a lot of development. You know what development sites need? Port-a-potties.
01:26:55.920 So I'm going to say, what capital would I need to start a port-a-potty company? I'm going to train
01:27:00.400 some people, manage them well, get some systems in place so that I can rent out a port-a-potty
01:27:05.180 with less overhead than the competitor, provide better service because I'm a Christian, honor my
01:27:10.940 word, just go about it Christianly. And then pretty soon, maybe you, you end up operating
01:27:15.840 the largest port-a-potty rental in your, in your, in your city. And it sounds silly, but it's like,
01:27:20.520 literally, that's something that people are going to need forever. Anywhere they're building stuff,
01:27:25.780 like there are, when you start to think this way, looking in and saying, what is, what are the
01:27:31.020 talents God's put in my hands? And then looking out and saying, what do my neighbors need or want?
01:27:35.620 and can I connect the two in a way that's economically productive, loves my neighbor
01:27:41.600 by benefiting them, benefits my family and hires people, builds business. And pretty soon you look
01:27:49.500 out and instead of having a scarcity mindset, which is so much of the killer of productivity
01:27:55.420 and building productive wealth, this scarcity mindset of, well, there are few jobs and a lot
01:28:00.840 of people competing for them. How will I ever make a living? And instead you look and you're like,
01:28:04.400 there's a lot of people around here that people have a lot of needs and wants. I bet I could find
01:28:09.200 a need or a want or maybe two or three or four or five different things, you know, multiple streams
01:28:14.220 of income. Dang, I bet if I just read the Proverbs, worked hard as unto the Lord, generous with my
01:28:20.380 money, honest with my customers, love the people I encounter, take a genuine interest in other
01:28:25.960 humans. Like if I just do these Christian things, wow, maybe there's not a scarcity out there.
01:28:31.300 maybe there's enormous opportunity. Like the world is made out of opportunity right now is
01:28:37.180 one of the things Christians need to get in their bones. Yeah, big time. There's one story I heard 0.99
01:28:41.100 where a gold miner was asked the question, how do you find gold? And he said, gold's everywhere.
01:28:48.480 You just need the eyes to see it. And so that's kind of what you're talking about. You have to
01:28:54.080 have a different frame of reference in order to see that there's actually opportunities everywhere.
01:28:58.560 yes and and so another thing that i would like to talk about so you you said uh that you need to
01:29:04.340 uh what was your first point you said you had two points so you look in and you say where am i good
01:29:09.780 at because people are different and then you look out you say what do my neighbors need okay that's
01:29:13.260 great the other thing i would say is find a respectable man because this so much crosses
01:29:18.680 over with masculinity in wealth creation and and uh taking dominion in uh wealth money space
01:29:26.600 is that you find somebody that has been successful
01:29:29.300 and then put yourself in their way.
01:29:32.340 Yeah.
01:29:33.020 And just enculturate yourself with this person
01:29:36.500 and think like they think and do like they do.
01:29:40.040 Yeah.
01:29:40.260 Because people who are wealthy,
01:29:42.380 just like men who are especially masculine,
01:29:45.540 they think differently.
01:29:46.980 Yeah.
01:29:47.240 They just do.
01:29:48.040 That's something that I've discovered
01:29:49.200 over the last few years,
01:29:50.580 just surrounding myself with men
01:29:52.660 who have been more successful in business.
01:29:54.380 Like, wow, you think about these issues
01:29:56.240 way differently and these opportunities way differently than I do. And it's very, very
01:30:02.300 helpful because also read, you should definitely read, uh, which is very, very helpful, but having
01:30:09.020 on the ground help from other men that have been successful and are doing this successfully
01:30:14.300 is unbelievably helpful. Yeah. I think as well, you know, when we're talking about the power of
01:30:20.960 community, in pooling resources, providing, you know, having in-group preference. Christians
01:30:29.920 should be operating on in-group preference in a lot of ways. Parallel economy type stuff. Yeah, 1.00
01:30:34.800 we're saying I'm building my business and I want to hire Christians. I want the money that is 1.00
01:30:40.620 being brought in to stay in this little, in this place, in the local church. I want to hire that
01:30:48.020 person, bring them up, business partners. I know churches and groups of Christians who are
01:30:53.740 pooling together and saying, instead of DCAing into the stock market and putting my $500 dollar
01:30:59.960 cost averaging, putting my $500 a month investment into a mutual fund, ETF, S&P, individual stocks,
01:31:08.440 cryptocurrency, whatever it is. Well, what if we formed REITs and real estate investment groups?
01:31:13.680 We formed, you know, other business investment groups. And what if 50 men in your church were
01:31:19.520 all putting their $500 a month or whatever it is, or a hundred dollars a month into a mutual
01:31:25.480 pooled investment group. And you started elevating two or three guys that were particularly skilled
01:31:30.300 and proven and gifted in managing those resources. What could you do? What might you be able to build
01:31:35.820 together in terms of productive? And I'm talking about like foothold in your community and real
01:31:39.840 estate, helping your church, but also just producing productive wealth-creating businesses,
01:31:46.920 assets. And what happens is that, you know, we're 10 isolated men who own homes in a city are going
01:31:54.860 to have very little influence on a city council and things like that when they're doubling your
01:31:58.040 property taxes every two years, like they're doing here in Utah. But 10 businesses, that's
01:32:05.160 powerful 10 10 businesses or guys that own influential business interests in the community
01:32:11.080 those men because they have an owned interest a proven owned interest in the community in ways
01:32:18.060 that it's sinful that they ignore homeowners and that sort of thing but that actually does make a
01:32:22.680 difference when you go to then try to flex the own space muscles all of a sudden it's like
01:32:27.660 it's actually it's a lot more difficult like think about a place like moscow idaho
01:32:31.360 where a lot of the biggest businesses,
01:32:34.600 a lot of the biggest restaurants and things like that,
01:32:36.680 some of the best businesses in the town
01:32:38.360 are all from members of Christchurch.
01:32:41.200 So they're just like, you know,
01:32:42.900 they're much harder to push around.
01:32:45.260 It gets harder and harder to push you around.
01:32:47.320 It gets easier and easier for you
01:32:49.380 to exercise benevolent influence
01:32:51.880 and positive influence in your place
01:32:54.400 to the degree that you're successful
01:32:56.040 in acquiring wealth, money, and space in that place
01:32:58.200 and using it Christianly.
01:32:59.360 Yeah. And I think, I think banding together and, and, and investment groups and things like that
01:33:04.220 is great. It, it might be high, you know, as far as the bar goes, but you know, what's not a high
01:33:09.800 bar is if you've got a church of people that are godly and that you trust and you say like, Hey,
01:33:15.800 I, I, I want to be a plumber. I want to own my own plumbing business. If I'm a plumber,
01:33:21.920 will you guys be my customers? Yeah. Like I need customers. Will you guys be my customers? Will
01:33:28.200 you give me like you said in group preference all of a sudden that that barrier that risk that we
01:33:33.540 were talking about yeah taking the risk becomes a lot more realistic it does in in some ways i'm
01:33:38.980 going to be the hvac guy or whatever trade it is the car mechanic whatever we need a midwife we
01:33:44.360 need a really competent midwife in our church we have great midwife you know that we all use she's
01:33:48.160 getting older it's not you know not a part of the church i don't think she's a christian but it's
01:33:51.580 like you know you start looking at a community that's really productive do you know how many
01:33:55.780 babies will have had 2022 and into 2023 right now. Oh, it's unbelievable. 18. 18. So you look
01:34:03.560 at that and you say, we pay on average, let's say our midwife costs on average $4,000 per birth. I
01:34:08.360 think that's pretty standard in our area for an experienced midwife. Yeah, four, five, six. So 0.99
01:34:12.740 you go, okay, well, we've just provided 18 of those. Let's say even 12 of those end up being
01:34:18.340 midwife customers for you. Well, that just gave you a base of $60,000 in income. There you go.
01:34:25.780 so go find a few other people you know like we might not be able to keep your plumbing business
01:34:30.580 open single-handedly no but we might give you this huge base to help with but especially you
01:34:35.780 know one of the fears is external factors on a business that's that's one of the unknowns it's
01:34:39.940 like well what what sort of economic conditions are we going to have another business closure
01:34:44.080 or whatever but if you're in a church and you have people that you trust and you're like no
01:34:49.220 i won't get the vaccine no i won't wear the mask no i won't do this thing that they're asking me to
01:34:53.720 do um will you hire me they should say yes yes you you will have business here yep you will have
01:35:01.760 business here and so i think that's you know going along with that the the power of community we think
01:35:07.000 so individualistically and there's so much more power and the pagans do this yeah they do they're
01:35:12.680 really good at it yeah so so using and leveraging the people that you have look at joe biden's son
01:35:19.040 well i was gonna say you know that's in group preference right there even in the uh the ghetto
01:35:23.620 culture, but like the Jews are very well
01:35:25.660 known for this, like taking care of
01:35:27.640 each other. Well, yeah, the Rothschilds.
01:35:29.500 You can look at middlemen minority groups through 0.73
01:35:31.620 history. But even like, you know, like the 1.00
01:35:33.640 Jewish culture in New York City, for example, like
01:35:35.500 they take care of each other. Yep. That's what you do.
01:35:38.000 Yeah. Well, guys,
01:35:39.820 we've come to the end of this show
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01:37:41.740 and thanks again for listening.
01:37:43.660 As always, Winkit, Quisa Winkit, he conquers who conquers himself.
01:37:48.980 Go out and be self-ruled Chad Kings.
01:37:50.900 See you next time in the Kings Hall.
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