00:04:25.160And though, listeners, Ray, our sound editor, spared you, you didn't have to hear me make about a thousand mistakes that I had to reread, pronouncing Steve Jobs' name as if it were the book of Job.
00:07:41.680Again, like you said, this is common sense, natural law kind of stuff.
00:07:44.940You don't even need a verse of the Bible to tell you this.
00:07:47.040You can simply just observe the world and how it works, that fathers ultimately ought to be and end up being for good or for bad often the model of what a son is aiming to become.
00:08:01.440So when you have a father who's present and joyful and loving and he's a good godly man, that man becomes the model for the son in a way that's filtered through the son's own particular proclivities or nature.
00:08:15.180Not that he's going to become the exact imprint of his father, but that his father is going to be – his father's nature is going to be stamped on him like a royal seal on the soft wax.
00:08:28.740And even for a daughter then, he doesn't become so much the model for what his daughter should become fully in the same way a son because she's a woman.
00:18:52.240And Adam, as like the father of humanity in a way, as a representative, was given marching orders before the marriage to Eve.
00:19:02.140And so I do think that God is telling us something with that.
00:19:07.480And I would just, again, say what I said earlier, that you can see this theme on repeat throughout the entirety of Scripture as God the Father, he gives himself that name, he's God the Father, is declaring to his people, like, this is what is good, what is evil, this is how you are to worship.
00:19:29.220This is, you know, he's giving fatherly instruction.
00:19:44.260Another, to use my famous word, huge, another huge thing here I think is, Brian, so much like the confessions and the things that we have from our fathers in the faith, they've proven helpful to me.
00:20:22.120There's a simplicity to the truth and law of God,
00:20:25.620and especially the way it expounds nature.
00:20:27.520So I guess if you would just connect those with some, like Westminster, why is that important here?
00:20:33.640Yeah, I think of chapter two of the Westminster when I'm thinking about this father-son relationship.
00:20:38.260Because you can get this backward where you could go a reason in the wrong direction.
00:20:44.560You could say, well, we're supposed to call God Father and the Messiah the Son because God looked through creation and he was looking for something that was kind of a good analogy.
00:20:55.080And he was like, oh, it's kind of like that.
00:20:56.900It's kind of like fatherhood and sonship, and that's not really what happened.
00:21:01.340It's that God is a Father who eternally begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.
00:21:11.320And so when God created human fathers and human sons, he created them to be a picture.
00:21:19.000So we are a living image, in a sense, of fatherhood and sonship.
00:21:23.660The Westminster Confession chapter 2 says that the Son – it literally says the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
00:21:32.840And there's some – as with any doctrine where you're getting into the essence and the nature of God, there's debate about the finer points and what are exactly the right human words to use.
00:21:45.160we're getting to the edges of what human language is able to do when we're describing the eternal
00:21:51.840essence of God with finite human words. But a lot of the Westminster divines and then later
00:21:59.860commentators on the Westminster would call this doctrine of the eternal begetting of the Son by
00:22:05.260the Father, the eternal generation of the Son. A. A. Hodge defines this doctrine, the eternal
00:22:11.920generation of the Son as, quote, an eternal personal act of the Father, wherein by necessity
00:22:17.960of nature, not by choice of will, he generates the persons, not the essence of the Son, by
00:22:22.980communicating to him the whole indivisible substance of the Godhead without division,
00:22:29.440alienation, or change, so that the Son is the express image of his Father's person and eternally
00:22:36.260continues, not from the Father, but in the Father, and the Father in the Son. This is what the earlier
00:22:42.720creeds were talking about when they said that Christ is God of God, light from light, that kind
00:22:48.500of language, is that we have this eternal cause and its eternal effect. So Jesus wasn't created
00:22:54.120in a moment of time where he began to exist, but that the reality of there being one God who
00:23:00.940eternally exists in three persons, there's a relationship there that is real without dividing
00:23:06.320the substance of God. I mean, we're not talking about three gods or God pretending to be three
00:23:10.500different beings. And this is all very technical, but it's important because it tells us something
00:23:16.460about how fatherhood and sonship actually end up relating to each other in a human creational
00:23:22.800echo sort of way, where we don't eternally generate our son, obviously. I'm also not
00:23:28.740talking about the doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son and that whole – I'm
00:23:33.020not talking about the ESS, EFS at all. I'm talking about a different doctrine. But it does tell us
00:23:37.720that there's a human echo where the fatherhood of human fathers and the sonship of human sons
00:23:42.840sort of rhymes with and is a shadow of this relationship where a father really is giving
00:23:51.760to his son and his daughters as well. He's giving to his children his nature. He's giving to his
00:23:58.040children himself in a way. He's being replicated. There's a begetting that happens with our
00:24:04.440children where they become like us, and that continues through life. So they continue to
00:24:10.460become like us. In our absence, it's almost like they lose the copy that they're supposed to be
00:24:19.300imitating. And so it's not that they can live without that master model that they're being
00:24:25.620modeled after, they just make other ones. They will reach everywhere to find another model to
00:24:30.520be begotten in the image of. And so they'll try to become like, oh, Andrew Tate, look, there's a dad
00:24:36.780who will tell me how to do fatherhood and sexuality, and he'll lead you into hell, and he'll lead you0.99
00:24:41.080into death. Or, hey, this book that I read, or hey, this other father figure in my life, for good or0.93
00:24:48.260evil, it's inescapable that children will seek some fatherly model to be begotten in the image
00:24:55.640of. Yeah, I also think it's really important to recognize how many times in the New Testament
00:24:59.840Paul, like, obviously gives teaching and instruction, but how many times does Paul
00:25:04.620reference imitation? Because the reality is, like, we're image bearers and we're imitators.
00:25:10.680Yeah. So even when we're talking about fathers, it's not just that we need to—we definitely do
00:25:15.740need to read about the Trinitarian God, and we need to study these things, but we also need
00:25:22.340real actual flesh and blood men in our lives who are modeling fatherhood. That's also the way
00:25:28.240it seems God has designed it. Yeah, you see Ephesians 5, Paul says,
00:25:32.300be imitators of God as beloved children. And then later, Paul actually says something similar
00:25:38.320in 1 Corinthians 4. He says, I urge you to be imitators of me. So Paul, and he says,
00:25:44.780you have not many fathers to the Corinthians. So there's this reality that people should
00:25:53.020imitate God, but God created us to need or to be benefited by mediating images of God,
00:26:03.120mediating images of God's fatherhood, whether church fathers, like Paul's talking about in
00:26:07.6801 Corinthians 4, or human fathers, like actually biological human fathers, it's an inescapable
00:26:15.500reality that we're going to form some image of a father to imitate and be begotten the image of.
00:26:20.320And the question is only, is it going to be a father who is in the image of the real father?
00:26:28.660Or will it be a false father? Yeah. And I think it ties, you're exactly right. It ties closely
00:26:35.120into this this first point that we were talking about about presence i guess the other question
00:26:39.360i have for us uh and for you guys as men is you know a direct application of this would be that
00:26:45.080our sons and daughters they need us to be present um and so just asking what are some of the ways
00:26:52.380that that you would do that i think of simple things in my life even like you know coming home
00:26:57.500and not just sitting there vegging on my smartphone and responding to emails and text messages with
00:27:02.620everybody will, you know, I've been convicted of this lately where like my teenage son is talking
00:27:07.420to me and trying to tell me about his day and I'm not listening. Um, so what other ways have
00:27:12.000you thought through, like how, how can fathers just practically be present? Yeah. I think there's
00:27:16.440a lot of discipline that you can build into your life as far as like protecting certain times. I
00:27:21.660know, uh, pastor Brian Sove here is very good at that, uh, protecting time. I mean, four 30 on the
00:27:28.720knows. You can expect I'm out. He's, he's out. He's like, for that reason, I'm out. It's four
00:27:33.54031. I am late. Yep. Goldberry is waiting is what he says. And he's out the door. Uh, but I think,
00:27:41.300uh, having discipline, you know, it sounds kind of cold, I guess when I say it out loud,
00:27:45.880to me, it seems obvious, but, but having that sort of discipline is not, it's not a cold thing.
00:27:52.140no it's not a cold thing to say like no this time is um is for my children and for my my home yeah
00:28:00.080face to face i am i am not on my phone that's a discipline you know i am not in front of a tv
00:28:05.280that's a discipline i am going to read the storybook yes i am going to listen to you
00:28:10.820jabber on all day about you know what you did even though if it makes no sense and i'm going
00:28:15.840to smile and laugh and joke with you uh i am going to give attention to my wife so that they can see
00:28:21.780how you treat a woman and how you are mirroring uh things like being thankful thank you for making
00:28:28.740dinner this is great complimenting my boys are so funny when they want something now they go
00:28:34.140mommy you're so pretty you're so pretty and i'm like they learned that from me like wow
00:28:41.360they're imitators of dan as beloved children yeah it's awesome yeah yeah so uh i think i think
00:28:49.220the simplest answer is to build disciplines around your life,
00:28:53.420because what happens to the man who is on his phone all the time or sucked
00:28:57.140into screens or is at work constantly can't disconnect.
00:29:02.220It just fundamentally comes down to a lack of discipline.
00:29:05.740You're not able to say no to certain things and yes to other things.
00:29:58.720I think that's that's exactly the issue.
00:30:00.920We're talking about actual volume of time and then the quality of time when you're there being focused and people in your life.
00:30:07.660Like when you're leading your home, it's important that in order to carve out these spaces, you're teaching your people like you're teaching your wife.
00:30:15.000I might not when I'm at work answer a text message immediately it might take me two hours
00:30:20.460because if I'm in a counseling meeting I'm turning off notifications I'm removing the temptation
00:30:25.460if I'm doing something I want to be present there and doing it but then when I'm home
00:30:29.900that you will lose credibility if when you're home you then don't do the same thing there
00:30:34.720and I think this is convicting for all of us like when you think about the the ease with which
00:30:39.660attention is divided today, because you have this like immediate, ongoing, constant temptation
00:30:46.440to not be present. It's like compulsive, that's how I've heard it described. Yeah, it's like a
00:30:49.820compulsive, and so I think in this age, it's important that we all kind of recognize, yeah,
00:30:56.460this is a huge temptation, and we need to be disciplined. We actually set up barriers to
00:31:01.360ourselves ahead of time, if that makes sense. So, you know, I think as you do those few things
00:31:07.840consistently, then you'll get the presence right. And I know we're going to, we're going to talk
00:31:12.280about what you do with that, with that presence. You know, another thing I think that has been
00:31:17.640really helpful for me, maybe this isn't as helpful for you, is that if you just back out for a
00:31:21.900minute, Andy Wilson was really good about this. As I read fiction, this is kind of a theme that
00:31:26.160you see is like, um, if you just step out of your own skin for a second and, and just ask what story
00:33:44.640So it seems simple, I mean, but realistically,
00:33:48.120be honest and tell the story of your life.
00:33:49.980Dan, I think this is something that you taught me when we were, I think this came out of counseling
00:33:55.500initially and maybe even behind the scenes counseling where we were talking as an elder
00:34:00.500team, how do we deal with different situations? And it's very analogous because church elders
00:34:05.120and pastors are, are to take a fatherly role in the church. And you would say all the time,
00:34:09.480what we need to do is step back and ask what would the best pastor in the world do right now?
00:34:14.200And it's such an, it's such an like obvious question in a sense.0.98
00:34:17.800Yeah, you're like, that's a dumb question.0.52
00:34:19.200When you ask it like that, what you realize is that there are things you know you should do that you don't want to do because you're lazy or because it's hard.0.97
00:34:47.040is what would happen. But what if he had a really long day at work?
00:34:50.740Did I stutter? It's really interesting because in James Clear's book on Atomic Habits,
00:34:55.780how do you build habits and build a life you want? He said one of the central things that
00:35:00.700people have to get a grasp on is you ask yourself that exact same question. He says,
00:35:06.180like, if you want to be, you know, fit, physical fitness, what would a fit person do right now?
00:35:10.660It sounds so obvious. Put down the donut. As you're eating a donut.
00:35:15.100It forces you to focus on what kind of person do I want to become and how my habits are creating that kind of person.
00:35:24.940I want to be a smart, fit, well-read man who's a good father, and I'm going to accomplish that by tweeting all night, not being present, watching Netflix until I fall asleep, and never reading.
00:39:59.220And I think a lot of us might not also realize, just like you've talked about in Breithearth with women, you're also a huge thermostat in the home.
00:40:06.940And if everything is criticism and nagging, and you're like, man, everybody in my house is grumpy.
00:41:35.860and out of the darkness i hear from not where cyril was supposed to be in my mind on the floor
00:41:41.100on his little mattress but from where lexi normally sleeps in my bed and he's like daddy
00:41:46.620i'm laying where mommy normally sleeps and i was like oh are you wide awake i mean he is not tired
00:41:54.140at all he is jacked he is excited cheerful so happy chaos around him and he's the dog with the
00:42:02.420mug of coffee saying this is fine but he really means it and i said oh are you buddy you're laying
00:42:07.740there and he goes yeah mommy said i could sleep here tonight and i was like i'm not going up to
00:42:13.020confirm this i'll ask in the morning if he's lying through his teeth he was actually telling
00:42:16.180the truth he was so cheerful that he was gonna get to sleep next to me that like all of a sudden
00:42:23.220i was just laughing like wow i'm this it's fine like this is life i love these kids look at this
00:42:29.500little guy and that little moment of cheerfulness like just changed flipped a switch on my attitude
00:42:36.900and he's a three-year-old like now can you imagine the power of like the dad just insisting on being
00:42:43.980king loon and not um puddle glum in a bad way you know puddle glum's kind of a baller but he's also
00:42:51.800kind of a dour yeah sort of guy but you know king loon's just jovial first in last out laughing
00:42:57.460loudest you know that i think that that's so powerful in the home and it just takes discipline
00:43:01.640no no no eric was motioning to me because he looked i look like i want to talk because i do
00:43:06.380you bring up narnia and puddle glum and i'm like tangent time yeah you're like it's about
00:43:10.480puddle glum there's no time there's no time so so dan just to close the circle on this one
00:43:16.300when you think about how a father's presence can be felt part of part of the other side of this is
00:43:23.040the father sending the spirit for Jesus is for a purpose, which is empowering his mission.
00:43:28.480So right after the baptism, Jesus is going to go into the wilderness, be tempted and tested.
00:43:34.080So connect it for me that for fathers that you're also, the thing that you're
00:43:38.380passing on with your presence is also a mission. It's also missionally aligned.
00:43:44.960So with your boys now, I know that when you're in that season, right, they're all young. Your
00:43:49.660oldest is how old? Five? Five. Yeah. Everybody's young, but, but, but I think you'll start to see
00:43:54.980it more. Like my oldest is almost 16. Your presence is like directly, like based on how I am to my
00:44:01.480son, he's going to go find a wife, Lord willing. He's going to go start a family. The same things
00:44:06.780I'm doing in my home, he's going to go do. So just connect those dots for me, presence and how that
00:44:12.300ties to mission. Yeah. So how, how, I guess the first question is how are those that are under
00:44:19.680your responsibility supposed to understand what they're for and what they're supposed to accomplish
00:44:26.240if you're not around to show them, you know, that's, that's the presence part. The other thing
00:44:33.220is like, we've been talking about is the quality of the presence, because when you tell the story
00:44:39.000of it to your children, like that a father is to be joyful and to be cheerful. And that when they
00:44:45.160see, um, different obstacles or hardships come and that you endure with joy, uh, then you equip
00:44:54.700them. And the, the, I think the next part we'll get into is the declared pleasure of the father
00:45:00.620to the sons. And, and you're actually doing that by your actions. You do have to declare that
00:45:06.900Like, Hey son, I'm proud of you. You did a good job. That goes a long ways, but it means a lot more from a joyful father that is present and invested and interested in their sons. And so this is kind of a long and rambly answer, but it's really, it's, it's so interconnected with presence. Vision and presence are so interconnected.
00:45:30.900And again, if you look through the scriptures, like the people in the old covenant often go wayward and it's the presence of God, usually in judgment of some sort.
00:45:40.820But that shows up and it's like, hey, no, not this way, you know, that you're going, but this way, you know.
00:45:47.560And so a good father, his discipline of his children, his discipline of his time and his presence will show the vision for his kids.
00:45:56.900I mean, like attending church, that was the study, was just attending church.
00:46:24.460Yeah, I was also thinking about like, you know, presents the way that this one of the first things when we came here, just the way like Dan prayed at Christmas or Thanksgiving, you're always I can't remember exactly how you word it, but praying for the people present that their lines would go for a thousand years.
00:46:42.360I mean, even something that simple to your, your kids hear that prayer repeatedly. So you're framing
00:46:48.980their life in the trajectory of like your great grandchildren, simply in the way you're praying,
00:46:54.620right? You have little kids. So those aren't even long prayers. No, I'm sure that we all have our
00:46:59.580own like prayers that we do kind of regularly at night, bedtime or whatever. And I'll change
00:47:05.240things up every now and again, but I pray that my boys would be virtuous, godly, masculine men
00:47:11.900that would be self-controlled and not repeat the sins of their father. And I prayed blessings over
00:47:19.880them because I genuinely am asking God for that. That's what I desire. And I want my boys to hear
00:47:27.680that I'm declaring that on behalf of the father, as an intermediary, essentially through prayer,
00:47:37.900that I want my boys to become like this.
00:48:26.860In fact, so much of the workaholism and the drivenness of many men is simply to get this approval, like Steve Jobs, that they probably never will.