The King's Hall - White Knights and Reviling Wives： An Interview with David Edgington

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brian here with a big announcement from New Christendom Press.

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00:00:30.900 We'll also be signing the first thousand copies, so pick yours up today.

00:00:38.040 This episode of the King's Hall is brought to you by Backwards Planning Financial, Max D Trailers, Keep Wise Partners, Muzzleloaders.com, Truth Family Bible Church, Farmer Bills Provisions, Founders Ministries, Right Response Ministries, and our supporters at Patreon.com.

00:00:56.600 Today, it seems that when it comes to historical revisionism, nothing is sacred.

00:01:12.900 Anything can be reworked to fit a modernist perspective.

00:01:16.380 Take, for example, what feminists have done with Jane Austen's work, which include her masterpieces Pride and Prejudice and Emma.

00:01:23.840 Less than a decade ago, modern authors were asked to participate in The Austin Project,

00:01:29.580 which was an invitation for six individuals to update Austin's most popular novels.

00:01:36.080 One can hardly think of a more banal, soul-destroying exercise, and yet someone thought it was a good idea.

00:01:43.340 One such author was Curtis Sittenfield, who described Hask of rewriting Pride and Prejudice in an article for The Guardian.

00:01:51.100 quote as a novelist i wanted to illustrate that there is no longer just one version of happily

00:01:57.580 ever after a woman can marry a man and have children with him she can also marry a woman

00:02:02.940 or no one and she can eschew or embrace motherhood regardless of her romantic status 1.00

00:02:09.520 sittenfield changed elizabeth bennett's name to a much more butch liz added fornication between 1.00

00:02:16.760 her and Darcy, no longer Mr. Darcy, and has them meeting while out jogging, at which point Liz 0.97

00:02:23.500 suggests they engage in hate sex. We'll spare you any further details, but you get the point.

00:02:29.560 The aim is to rework a traditional masterpiece into an absolutely disgusting slop of feminist 1.00

00:02:36.460 nonsense. While modern feminists have long tried to remake Austen in their own image, 1.00

00:02:41.820 readers of the originals find something altogether different when reading her. 0.99

00:02:47.120 In Emma, for example, we find that the main character, Emma, is put in her place by the

00:02:52.360 very strong masculine character of Mr. Knightley. In fact, Knightley wins Emma not by giving way to

00:02:59.280 her haughty spirit, but by correcting her, and quite often. He is one of her few friends who

00:03:04.620 will speak plainly to her about her vanity. After a picnic outing in which Emma embarrasses an

00:03:10.540 elderly and impoverished Miss Bates, Mr. Knightley takes to firmly chastening her. While he later

00:03:16.140 apologizes for being too harsh, he's nonetheless on the right track, and his advice is pivotal in

00:03:22.240 transforming Emma's character from haughtiness to an appropriate humility and Christian charity.

00:03:28.300 When she tries to downplay the exchange with a heartbroken Miss Bates, Knightley firmly corrects

00:03:34.840 He says, Emma, how could you be so unfeeling to Miss Bates?

00:03:39.300 How can you be so insolent to a woman of her age and station?

00:03:43.120 I had not thought it possible.

00:03:45.500 To this, Emma responds, how could I help saying it?

00:03:48.360 I dare say she did not understand me.

00:03:51.160 Mr. Knightley, I assure you, she felt your full meaning.

00:03:55.160 She cannot stop mentioning it.

00:03:57.160 I wish you could have heard her honoring your forbearance in putting up with her

00:04:01.400 when her society was so irksome.

00:04:04.200 Emma, I know there is no better creature in all the world, but you must allow that blended 0.96

00:04:09.320 alongside the good, there is an equal amount of the ridiculous in her. Mr. Knightley, were 0.93

00:04:15.280 she prosperous or a woman equal to you in station, I would not quarrel with you about

00:04:20.040 any liberties of manner. But she is poor, even more so than when she was born. And should

00:04:26.200 she live to be an old lady, she will sink further still. Her situation being in every 0.98

00:04:31.340 way below you should secure your compassion. Badly done, Emma. Badly done. She has watched

00:04:37.360 you grow from a time when her notice of you was an honor to this, humbling her, laughing at her

00:04:43.280 in front of people who would be guided by your treatment of her. It is not pleasant for me to

00:04:48.480 say these things, but I must tell you the truth while I can, proving myself your friend by the

00:04:53.780 most faithful counsel, trusting that sometime you will do my faith in you greater justice

00:04:58.860 than you do it now. Far from the feminist drivel of a modern retelling, Austin's dialogue captures

00:05:06.320 a very biblical notion of male-female relationships, namely that good men must be willing to correct

00:05:13.640 a haughty spirit in the women they love. If they do not, it will give way to what scripture calls

00:05:19.980 a reviling woman. Sadly, today, many men are trapped in relationships with women who think 0.97

00:05:25.980 themselves beyond correction. Culturally, we have been nourished on a steady diet of 0.97

00:05:31.160 complementarianism and feminism, each of which teaches us that men are always at fault for

00:05:37.120 women's sins, men must be servant leaders, and that in every situation, the woman is a victimized

00:05:44.260 damsel in distress. The role of men, we have been taught, is to perform the part of a white knight 0.74

00:05:50.540 sent to rescue the needy woman. But instead of correcting the woman when she's wrong,

00:05:55.940 the modern view has it that men should swoop in to accommodate the woman in her sin.

00:06:01.100 Our age seems to wonder if women can sin at all, or that if they do sin, it must be the fault of

00:06:07.280 some man somewhere who made her do it. Functionally, the man becomes a doormat, an enabling accomplice

00:06:13.820 to her wayward desires. And to be fair, who among us wouldn't develop such a sinfully arrogant 0.95

00:06:19.460 self-perception if the cultural messaging we received from infancy was that we could do no

00:06:25.120 wrong. Now, contrary to this, the Apostle Paul says in Titus 2 that older women are to train

00:06:32.080 the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working

00:06:37.200 at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

00:06:43.180 That last word is crucial. When a woman does not practice the godly virtues assigned to her by the 0.99

00:06:49.260 Lord, she causes the word of God to be reviled. Thus, she becomes the reviling wife. Rather than 1.00

00:06:57.320 correcting her as Knightley did, the white knight further enables her sin and in turn creates the

00:07:02.740 kind of woman that makes her husband wish he lived on the corner of a rooftop or alone in

00:07:07.860 the wilderness. What can be done to remedy this far-reaching modern error? In this episode of the

00:07:14.180 King's Hall podcast, we'll discuss how feminism has ruined marriages, society, and the church,

00:07:20.480 and what we must do to fix the problem. We'll also talk about Pastor David Edgington's forthcoming

00:07:26.480 book with New Christendom Press, White Nights and Reviling Wives, How Feminism Destroys Families.

00:07:32.860 Finally, we sit down with the author himself to discuss the book and why it's so important in the

00:07:38.540 church today. The King's Hall podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world.

00:07:58.000 Welcome to this episode of the King's Hall podcast, or should I say Brian Svavet?

00:08:03.140 Hello, Governor. Hello, Governor. How you doing, mate?

00:08:05.400 we were talking about we were talking about bbc adaptations of jane austen's book oh yeah and how

00:08:10.600 in every single one if they were made before about the year 2005 the male lead is like the

00:08:15.800 hottest british guy meaning he's a 65 year old guy with really bad teeth and he's like hello

00:08:21.260 elizabeth how you doing today i'll make 10 000 a year it's like american audience watches and

00:08:27.960 they're like dan you make those guys look ugly i mean welcome to the show i mean as bad as their

00:08:34.720 teeth are they have better hair than i do oh you don't see a lot of old british guys don't sell 0.92

00:08:40.600 yourself short did you get that chin wigs though yeah they had powdering in the way man dude you

00:08:47.160 should i should bring it back next powdered wigs yeah bring back a powdered wig this is a great

00:08:51.580 idea you should do it we won't make fun of you no i promise unlike unlike curtis when you're there 0.98

00:08:57.100 we won't make fun of you just be on your back like a good christian curtis sit and pee 0.93

00:09:02.140 first of all just talking about that the absolute atrocity oh my word of the there's so many times 0.87

00:09:09.320 dan where i've seen people say that like jane austen was the first feminist i'm reading the

00:09:14.000 books especially and i'm like unreal are we reading the same book no we are not the answer

00:09:20.900 is no and that the changing of her name to liz lick it's absolutely gross it provokes me that

00:09:29.440 that guy should be stoned yeah oh 100 speaking of absolutely not disgusting we do have a new book 0.93

00:09:38.140 coming out about something disgusting the reviling wife ah um not really a problem in the church 0.98

00:09:44.220 today we have a lot of you know just everything's more of a historical look it's more previous eras

00:09:52.060 it is interesting because we've been we've been promoting this uh kevin griffin and i did a show

00:09:56.660 about reviling wives for the hard men podcast. And it was really interesting because it's one

00:10:03.020 of the things that I've gotten the most feedback about on an episode. And it was, it was sad. It

00:10:08.220 was guys who were saying, yeah, I'm in that marriage. Like it's really horrible and no one

00:10:13.060 will help me, which it has been cool because David has a group where he, he will help these guys

00:10:19.260 and offers biblical, he's a biblical counselor. So he he's willing to help them. But Brian,

00:10:24.960 I guess just speak to the state of the church. Feminism is not just an ideology, but it is 0.99

00:10:31.920 radically reshaped the church in ways that are exceptionally bad. So I guess start with that. 0.89

00:10:38.440 Yeah. I mean, feminism is a corrosive. So it's a cultural corrosive. It recasts every institution 1.00

00:10:44.940 of society in an egalitarian mold. Like at least that's what it is sold as, egalitarianism. But

00:10:52.720 hierarchy is inevitable. You really can't have actual egalitarianism in the world. So what it

00:10:58.740 ends up doing is subverting and inverting, and it just puts everybody in the opposite place they

00:11:05.620 should be. So instead of having marriages where there's no head, which is what they're trying to

00:11:10.340 do, what they make instead are marriages where the wife is the head functionally, but they can't

00:11:17.020 escape nature. The husband really still objectively is the head before God, but he's stripped of 0.52

00:11:22.600 all authority to do anything. And then that stripping of his authority is enforced by all

00:11:28.980 of these cultural, social, and legal mechanisms in the church and in society that strip him of

00:11:37.440 his ability to do anything about it. So if a husband, let's say that he finds himself in a

00:11:43.620 marriage to a woman who, whether she began this way or not, becomes deeply unpleasant, 0.83

00:11:48.760 innocent, caught in all of her sin, caught in pride and arrogance and haughtiness and, you know, 0.73

00:11:54.320 says, I'm going to be the head of this marriage. I'm going to lead and becomes the kind of wife

00:11:58.900 that the Proverbs warn about. This wife will make you want to live on the corner of your roof. 1.00

00:12:04.800 Well, then if he attempts to, even no matter how gently, no matter how kindly Christianly he

00:12:10.900 attempts to correct his wife, it's very easy for that woman to cast him as an abuser, as a harsh

00:12:20.120 man, as a domineering tyrant. And all it really takes is one accusation of him to the right people,

00:12:28.720 and it can sink his reputation forever. She could say to her pastors, unfortunately, in many churches,

00:12:34.980 or to a judge in a court that, you know, he's this, that, and the other.

00:12:39.880 He's very harsh.

00:12:40.700 And even if all he did was say, you know, try to calmly and gently correct her sin,

00:12:47.660 it's very, very difficult for him to actually wield any kind of authority in his home

00:12:53.720 because it's been stripped from him.

00:12:55.740 So even worse than that, in complementarianism, which is fundamentally a feminist compromise 0.97

00:13:02.480 in an attempt to sort of create a halfway house between biblical traditional patriarchy and

00:13:09.340 feminism on the other hand, they do an even subtler thing that ends up, I think, being 0.72

00:13:16.380 still highly corrosive. And they'll do this thing where they'll say, no, the husband really is the 0.76

00:13:22.240 head, but then they will strip him of all authority. So they'll give him all the responsibilities,

00:13:27.420 but they will take from him the corresponding authority that must necessarily come with real

00:13:34.100 responsibility. If God gives you the responsibility to do something, he gives you the authority to do

00:13:40.320 that thing along with it. They try to give the one without the other.

00:13:44.040 Well, this is really where the servant leadership, which I think came about through promise keepers,

00:13:49.060 but it was kind of this idea that like, yeah, the man's the head, but then we want to downplay

00:13:54.620 the effect to which he rules, which is a biblical term, 1 Timothy 3, you know, you think of the

00:14:00.760 elder, one that ruleth his household well is fit for the office of elder. That's one of the

00:14:06.020 qualifications, ruling well. But then go to someone, I saw this on Acts, this is from the

00:14:11.100 Queen of Complementarianism, by which I mean Owen Strand. And he wrote this, he said,

00:14:16.460 though every man sins and every husband grows over time, I am steering my two daughters clear

00:14:22.260 of any young man who would dominate, silence, berate, bully, control, or rule my girls in

00:14:29.020 marriage, loving self-sacrificing headship, amen, domineering rulership over my dead body.

00:14:37.080 So you read something like this, and he's taking a biblical word like rule and attaching

00:14:42.860 as many negative pejoratives to it as he possibly can to make it seem like ruling is necessarily

00:14:49.420 literally bullying, controlling, berating. Yeah, like it's as if it's baked into the biblical

00:14:53.940 concept of rule, that to rule you must be a bullying, domineering, you know, insert,

00:14:59.320 psychological negatives, you know, sort of thing. But biblically, rule is a good thing that can be

00:15:04.620 used in a wrong way. Everyone must rule his own spirit. A pastor rules in the congregation,

00:15:09.740 according to Paul and Timothy. A good man, like all the way up and all the way down the hierarchy,

00:15:15.440 rule is presented as something a godly man does. So of course, any good father would reject the

00:15:22.100 kind of man that Owen describes in that tweet. But the way he promotes it, it's subtle. He's

00:15:29.520 trying to imply, he's trying to poison gas cloud people who use the word rule positively

00:15:34.040 and are attempting to retake, yes, a Christ-like, self-sacrificial, godly, masculine, strong rule

00:15:43.200 in the home and he's trying to imply that all of the people seeking that are this other thing

00:15:49.060 and it's like it's either that or like but nobody else is arguing for the thing that you're

00:15:54.880 arguing it's a classic owen thing he does this constantly he's always um casting like bravely

00:16:00.600 standing against something absolutely nobody argues for and it's fundamentally dishonest

00:16:05.920 it's the tilting at windmills okay king's hollions which is what we're now calling you

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00:21:07.640 Dan, I want to ask you, as we think about pastoral counsel, as we think about actual

00:21:14.700 real marriages where we do see reviling lives and have seen them in the past.

00:21:20.880 What does this do to a marriage?

00:21:22.980 Why do you think it's such a problem?

00:21:25.420 And tied to that was like why we're writing the book or David's writing the book, why

00:21:29.820 we're publishing the book.

00:21:31.360 But why are we saying like, this is a real problem?

00:21:33.900 So speak to just kind of the boots on the ground, the pastoral.

00:21:36.780 Sure, sure. 1.00

00:21:38.140 You know what Brian said about feminism being corrosive is a really good picture because 1.00

00:21:44.680 essentially what happens, if you look at the different spheres of authority that God placed

00:21:54.120 in the world, so within the family, within the church, and within the state, when feminism is 0.93

00:21:59.880 injected in there, what is at the actual heart of feminism? Well, it's the curse of the woman 1.00

00:22:05.740 back in the garden that she will desire to rule over her husband, is essentially to abscond any 0.98

00:22:12.000 real authority, which makes these authority structures impotent. And so you can see this

00:22:18.780 in the church, and I'll get to counseling as well, but you can see this in the church when 1.00

00:22:23.180 feminism comes into the church with that instinct of throwing off any real authority or authority 1.00

00:22:31.940 functionally is the Lord Jesus Christ and the scriptures. You see certain effects with the 1.00

00:22:38.460 scriptures and how they're applied. You get things like antinomianism or like I like to call it

00:22:44.620 gracism to where essentially your emotions begin to rule versus the word of God. It becomes the

00:22:52.140 litmus test no longer becomes what does the word of God actually say, because that's an authority.

00:22:57.720 I'm the ultimate authority. It really matters how I feel. That's how I'm going to adjudicate

00:23:03.500 my own life and measure where sin is in my life and in the church and in my family.

00:23:10.920 And so you get to particular passages like Brian read in the cold open with Titus 2.

00:23:16.160 That makes me feel icky.

00:23:18.320 So it must not mean what it really means.

00:23:20.440 And so let's reinterpret that.

00:23:22.380 So if you get that sort of spirit inside of a family and then in the counseling room,

00:23:28.280 in the counseling office, at the church, and you have a woman that automatically, 0.87

00:23:32.760 her predisposition is that she will not submit. I mean, what can you do? Not to the word of God, 0.84

00:23:39.320 not to the word of God, not to her husband, not to her pastor. What sort of counseling situation

00:23:44.820 do you think you'll have to somebody that is absolutely stubborn and will not listen and is

00:23:49.540 the ultimate authority in her own life? The ramifications are massive because you essentially

00:23:55.260 have a person that is ungovernable and not in, well, I mean, it's one of the aims of feminism, 1.00

00:24:01.580 them, right? Be, be ungovernable. Well, this is, but this is interesting, Dan, because I was 1.00

00:24:06.460 talking to Kevin Griffin in the other episode and I said, Kevin, you know, in terms of ranking,

00:24:12.820 how bad counseling situations are, I said, what are the worst? And he said, reviling wives.

00:24:18.960 It's not even close. Hands down. Yeah. Hands down. They're absolutely the worst to deal with.

00:24:23.760 So Brian, I want to ask you on that front. First, do you agree with that statement?

00:24:27.640 And then what is it about a reviling wife that makes that so bad, so destructive?

00:24:35.380 Yeah, so there are two types of counseling that I think tie for the worst in my experience.

00:24:40.880 And others might have had other experiences that are even worse, and I pity them.

00:24:45.740 But both of them, they're terrible because they fall into the same thing.

00:24:49.920 They're the extreme perversion of a strength or a duty.

00:24:53.380 So we've had men excommunicated from the church who have fallen into the extreme of combative, harsh, rude, uncorrectable, and that's like a leader, a rule gone sour, which it can in passivity, but it's terrible to try to correct when it's gotten into this, like it's a horse that won't take a bridle.

00:25:19.320 They will not be directed. Some of the worst counseling that I know Dan and Dan and I have

00:25:23.480 sat through in particular that the other tie though is definitely the reviling wife. And all 0.92

00:25:28.860 that is, it's a mirror image of the, of the same thing where the woman can, both of them can go 1.00

00:25:34.380 wrong in two directions. A man can go wrong in his duties in domination or abdication where he

00:25:41.660 dominates sinfully or abdicates his authority and passivity. A woman can go wrong in her duties in 0.98

00:25:47.180 domination or abdication, where she can seek to sinfully dominate and throw off all rule, 1.00

00:25:53.020 or she can abdicate her duties and become super passive and useless and slack-handed and all 0.98

00:25:58.920 these things. The dominating pole of both of those sins is really, really difficult to counsel

00:26:05.420 because it's baked into the definition of what's gone wrong that it is uncounselable. The thing you

00:26:11.140 have to break in that situation to correct somebody is uncorrectability. So it makes it like

00:26:17.520 you're, as a counselor, there's a temptation to shrink back and to say, this is too hard. I'm

00:26:27.120 just going to, I'm going to stop hitting my head against this brick wall because the brick wall

00:26:32.540 is not going to change. And I'm going to become passive myself and stop correcting it. When

00:26:36.580 instead, at this point, the church needs to remember its authority, and when you run into

00:26:41.320 the reviling wife who's uncorrectable and say, actually, there's such a thing as church discipline,

00:26:46.180 to where you don't just keep hitting your head against the wall and correcting her and say,

00:26:50.420 you're absolutely disrespectful, reviling, nagging, you're believing all of your emotions about,

00:26:55.580 you know, often your husband, you're projecting onto him all sorts of things he's not actually 0.60

00:26:59.560 doing, you're believing lies about him, you know, you're trampling over him, disrespecting him,

00:27:04.520 failing in all of your core duties. And so you need to repent and seek forgiveness and walk in

00:27:10.540 repentance. If she won't do that, the next step after repeated warning is biblical discipline,

00:27:17.360 where you actually say, Christians repent of their sin. If you will not repent of your serious,

00:27:23.240 thoroughgoing sin, then the church will take the next steps in discipline and wielding the

00:27:28.220 keys of the kingdom and the authority of the church. What was the second part of your question?

00:27:33.620 Yeah, I think it was just—I actually forget, too.

00:27:36.520 I forget.

00:27:37.240 That was really good.

00:27:37.940 I think just, like, the ways that it affects the church.

00:27:40.160 One thing I did want to say, though, is one of the biggest problems here—well, number 1.00

00:27:46.340 one, like David Edgington will say, many, many times these reviling wives end up being 0.98

00:27:51.900 uncorrectable in the end and unregenerate. 1.00

00:27:55.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:27:55.440 One of the other problems I've seen throughout ministry, a lot of times these reviling wives 0.99

00:28:00.140 are married to people that are called pastors. 0.99

00:28:02.780 And it will dominate and destroy a church.

00:28:06.440 And then you get, we've talked to so many people who come here and they say, 0.68

00:28:10.280 hey, I've got this situation, reviling wives.

00:28:12.100 You hear about it and you're like, wow, that's awful.

00:28:14.240 And then as they're telling, and I said like, well, is this a member of your church?

00:28:17.180 And they're like, no, it's the pastor and his wife.

00:28:19.140 Yeah.

00:28:19.920 And you're like, wow, that will, how can you have a healthy church if that's the dynamic?

00:28:24.020 Yes. 0.97

00:28:24.560 Because you'll often find that a woman of this disposition who sins in these general directions, 1.00

00:28:30.280 She will seek out a man who is passive and steerable, but who also can be a vehicle to 0.99

00:28:35.540 get her into positions of greater power and manipulation, because power and manipulation

00:28:40.120 are wrapped up in the sin.

00:28:41.740 And so it could be in the corporate world, it could be in the church, it could be in

00:28:45.300 politics, you see this as well.

00:28:47.660 I think especially before it was common for women to run for offices themselves, you would

00:28:53.780 often find that wives, political wives, would fall into this caste. 0.97

00:28:58.660 They would really be steering their husband.

00:29:00.320 Abraham Lincoln's wife. 1.00

00:29:02.480 Well, she like beat him for one thing. 1.00

00:29:05.160 Wow.

00:29:05.700 But in the church, it's absolutely devastating because it basically puts a completely sinful paradigm into the driver's seat of a church.

00:29:15.680 The doctrine guarding, leading, correcting office of the church.

00:29:19.460 And when you don't discipline sins in the church, what you find is that you get more of those sins.

00:29:25.840 Yeah.

00:29:25.960 So then churches of this nature often end up full of miserable marriages, divorces, domineering wives, because they'll never correct the sin.

00:29:35.540 They've opened the gate to that sin, corporately.

00:29:38.220 Well, you were mentioning this in a recent sermon on 1 Corinthians 5.

00:29:42.040 Yeah.

00:29:42.600 But you made a comment about divorce.

00:29:44.120 I can't remember.

00:29:44.880 Yeah, what happened was maybe five years ago in the course of an elder interview for membership, our membership process requires an interview with an elder.

00:29:53.680 And we go through all of the typical doctrinal stuff, but we also go through, and more and more as the years go on, the big picture church discipline issues, the main reasons in our culture today someone might be under church discipline, we head off before to make sure someone doesn't come into membership, and then we discover, oh, they're a habitual pornography user, and we didn't ask, and they didn't bring it up, or oh, there's an unbiblical divorce.

00:30:20.420 divorce. So I was doing a membership interview with an older lady, probably 50s, and was asking

00:30:28.700 her about marriage. Have you ever been married? Tell me about your current marriage, if there is

00:30:32.620 one like that sort of thing. And she told me just, you know, right off the bat, very casually that,

00:30:38.780 yeah, I was married for 20 years. And but about 10 years ago, eight years ago, I divorced my husband.

00:30:44.840 that's strange tell me about the circumstances of your divorce because we you know we affirm

00:30:50.480 the westminster confession of faith and uh which would not permit divorce in most circumstances

00:30:57.960 very specific circumstances where divorce would be permissible and she said well you know no we

00:31:03.200 just kind of fell out of love more or less i didn't really love him anymore didn't want to

00:31:06.480 be married to him and so i you know we sort of talked and agreed and i told him i'm i'm leaving

00:31:11.900 So she divorces him.

00:31:13.260 He stays at whatever church they were at because they're both professed Christians.

00:31:17.920 She goes to another couple churches over the years, and then some years later ends up in

00:31:21.720 our church seeking membership.

00:31:23.760 And I told her, and it was me and it might have been Dan.

00:31:26.860 I can't remember.

00:31:27.560 It was Dan.

00:31:28.160 Yeah, it was.

00:31:28.920 So Dan and I are there, and we're looking at each other like, oh, okay, well, this is

00:31:32.660 about to take a turn.

00:31:33.840 Like, you can't be a member.

00:31:35.840 Well, why not?

00:31:36.960 Well, because you're living in serious, unrepentant sin.

00:31:39.740 Well, what do I need to do?

00:31:40.560 What do you mean?

00:31:41.040 what would I do? Well, neither her nor her husband had been remarried. We said, you need to go seek

00:31:45.880 reconciliation, repentance, and remarriage to your husband. Or if he won't have you, or if it's

00:31:53.540 not up to you entirely, at the minimum, you need to repent, confess your sin, and seek restitution

00:31:59.820 however you can do it. And only upon those circumstances would we permit you to be a

00:32:11.020 As, you know, unfortunately, we sort of suspected it was, you know, she freaked out and left and didn't come back.

00:32:17.440 Other people left with her because we were being harsh and pharisaical and all of the rest.

00:32:23.240 But the point I made in the sermon recently, which was on sexual immorality in the church and Paul's chastening of the Corinthians for tolerating serious sexual sin in the church,

00:32:33.660 was that had we allowed her, had we just papered over it and said, you know what, divorce, it's no big deal.

00:32:40.740 You can be, do you feel sorry about it at least?

00:32:42.900 Okay, cool.

00:32:43.560 You can be, you know, just sign this paper saying you're real sorry.

00:32:48.080 You can be a member.

00:32:49.980 I mean, guarantee is a strong word, but I almost guarantee you we would have had three or four more divorces of similar circumstance in the subsequent five years since then, that point.

00:33:00.400 Because we would have opened the door and said, this church, we don't care about that sin.

00:33:05.420 We tolerate that sin.

00:33:06.760 It's fine.

00:33:07.740 Yeah.

00:33:07.940 Um, so, so the, and the problem is like, it was so shocking to her and to others who left

00:33:14.600 with her because 99, I, I mean, I hope I'm not, I hope I'm overstating it, but I think

00:33:23.520 99 out of a hundred churches in America wouldn't have batted an eye about permitting her to

00:33:28.660 be a member.

00:33:29.980 No, that probably cause they don't want to deal with everything that it would include

00:33:33.740 to deal with it.

00:33:34.960 It's a huge amount of work.

00:33:36.300 Yeah.

00:33:36.600 Yeah. Speaking of huge amounts of work, Brian, I want to transition here. We'll leave some,

00:33:43.140 we'll leave some thunder for Kevin and David Edgington here because it's really good. This

00:33:48.560 is an important conversation in the church. We do want to encourage people to stay on the lookout

00:33:52.780 for the forthcoming book from David Edgington, hopefully sometime this summer. We'll have

00:33:59.020 pre-orders as well, but that we've finished the manuscripts, going to the printer, all that good

00:34:04.040 stuff uh so really excited about that but also excited about another great project um someone

00:34:10.040 you may know uh that i personally aspire to some people have called him the songbird of our

00:34:17.360 generation wow this is and this person is you i thought you were gonna switch it and say that it

00:34:22.820 was like now someone else it was like fergie or something but you got a new album yes do have a

00:34:27.620 new album out awake to dawn okay it's uh now when this episode comes out it's gonna be streaming

00:34:32.900 everywhere. So Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, all the places you'd normally find music, YouTube,

00:34:39.440 and it's a 10-song album. It's kind of a follow-on to Even Dragon Shall Him Praise.

00:34:44.560 It has eight original psalm settings, a setting of the Lord's Prayer, and a recasting of Dear

00:34:53.840 Christian's One and All Rejoice, which is a Luther hymn. I've been working on it for more than a year,

00:34:59.380 and it's uh i hope i hope a good album very so go check it out also there's a vinyl version a

00:35:05.940 vinyl record version of it that i have up on my site at brian silvey.com i it you know there's

00:35:11.700 like a vinyl tab and you can pick up the vinyl which is one of the best ways to support the

00:35:17.540 musical work um but also people buy them a lot of the time because they're like a work of art

00:35:24.380 whoo let's go that's how excited you are i'm so excited that's like a custom colored vinyl

00:35:31.560 all custom design package whole thing like you can hang it on your wall you play it on your

00:35:36.520 vinyl record player whatever if you're that kind of hipster that's into that sort of thing then

00:35:40.620 you know check it out fantastic that comes with digital downloads as well so if you buy the vinyl

00:35:45.400 you'll get digital downloads awesome so new christian press.com uh want to encourage people

00:35:51.000 Also, we've got a conference upcoming June 12th through 14th in Ogden, Utah.

00:35:56.180 That's going to be very exciting.

00:35:58.100 Recovering the spirit of American greatness.

00:36:00.240 Did I get that right?

00:36:00.820 Yeah.

00:36:01.060 Recovering the American will to greatness.

00:36:02.900 Yeah.

00:36:03.100 Pretty much what exactly what I said.

00:36:05.820 It's our conference.

00:36:06.900 We totally know the name of it.

00:36:08.100 That's right.

00:36:09.300 Very excited about that.

00:36:10.620 Check that out on the website as well.

00:36:12.160 New Christian press dot com slash twenty twenty five.

00:36:14.420 Yep.

00:36:14.580 And now we'll jump into the interview with Dr.

00:36:16.900 David Edgington and Pastor Kevin Griffin.

00:36:21.000 In 2023, Indigo Sundries became one of our sponsors.

00:36:29.940 At the time, their business was little more than a side hobby, generating a couple hundred dollars a month.

00:36:34.800 But because of their partnership with us and because all of you chose to support them,

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00:37:01.180 Well, hello and welcome to the podcast. My name is Kevin Griffin, and I'm very happy to be hosting

00:37:06.780 our episode today. I'm actually joined by a friend of mine, Pastor David Edgington, and this is a man

00:37:14.860 that I've been greatly encouraged by in the biblical counseling space. He's doing phenomenal

00:37:20.240 work, and I'm very thankful to have him on today. If you're unfamiliar with him, let me give you

00:37:25.260 some of his information so you have a good background. He is the current preaching pastor

00:37:30.040 at Christ Community Church in El Mirage, Arizona since 2012, and he's also been an ACBC certified

00:37:38.220 counselor since 1995. Dr. Edgington is the founder and executive director of Compassionate Counselors

00:37:45.680 in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2004. And he is also the author of four soon-to-be-five published books.

00:37:54.660 And that last credential is precisely what we come together to discuss today. So with that,

00:38:00.340 Pastor Edgington, my friend, thank you so much for joining me.

00:38:04.040 God bless you, Kevin. Good to be here with you.

00:38:06.460 Thank you. Now, as I mentioned just a second ago, I wanted to talk to you about the new book that

00:38:11.080 you're writing and publishing through New Christendom Press. This book is actually a

00:38:15.920 follow-up to a book you wrote and published about 10 years ago now called The Abusive Wife,

00:38:21.860 which is actually where I was first introduced to you. The title of your new book is,

00:38:27.360 I really enjoy this title, White Nights and Reviling Wives, How Feminism is Destroying

00:38:34.180 families. For anyone who might be unfamiliar with you or with your previous book or whose ears may

00:38:43.080 have perked up a little bit at the title, I think it'd be a good starting place today if you'd

00:38:49.700 define some of those terms for us in that title, White Knight and Reviling Wives.

00:38:55.280 Right. Good. No, I think that's an important place to start. It's interesting. The Puritans

00:39:01.820 used to write their books, and their title of their books was like an introduction to the whole

00:39:07.140 book. And in some ways, that's what this title is. So first, we'll define the term reviling wives,

00:39:14.500 and then we'll go from there. A reviling wife is a bitter, controlling, demanding, unsubmissive, 1.00

00:39:23.600 hostile, unrepentant wife. And many listeners probably are unfamiliar with women being that 1.00

00:39:33.580 way. Now, I don't think most women are that way, but there are a growing number of women that 1.00

00:39:40.740 would fit in that description, in that category. And I guarantee you, Kevin, that after this

00:39:46.660 podcast is published, you and I will get contacted by a lot of these men that say,

00:39:51.760 Well, finally, somebody that's talking about what a reviling wife is.

00:39:56.020 And, you know, it shouldn't surprise us, really, because we've got a number of passages in the scriptures that talk about this, like Proverbs 25, 24. 0.65

00:40:06.340 It's better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife.

00:40:12.640 So, you know, so this is how this is how painful and deadly this can be in a way that it's almost unbearable.

00:40:21.760 So that's what the reviling wife is, and I take a lot of time to describe that in my book, both books, actually.

00:40:31.520 The other term in the title, white knights.

00:40:34.700 So the white knight is the one that is thinking that he's the good guy in this situation.

00:40:42.840 He could be the pastor of the church.

00:40:44.980 He could be a counselor.

00:40:46.740 He could be a biblical counselor.

00:40:48.400 And he is going to defend this wife that I just described, even though she's clearly in sin.

00:40:58.240 And not only will he defend this wife, but he will actually condemn the man.

00:41:04.040 Basically, holding the man accountable for what the wife is doing in her sinful conduct.

00:41:10.700 And he blames the man, condemns the man, sometimes does church discipline on the man.

00:41:15.100 and not only does not help the man but actually destroys this man and so that gets to the

00:41:23.300 subtitle um how feminism destroys families and this is what feminism has given to us it's given 0.99

00:41:33.520 to us not only the reviling wife who is unaccountable who is not humble but it's also 0.69

00:41:39.660 given us the white knight who thinks he's coming he's rushing to the rescue to defend the damsel

00:41:44.720 in distress. And in reality, what he's doing is he's defending the person that's in sin

00:41:50.820 and in the process, destroying the family. And there's even a sub-issue there, too,

00:41:58.260 that the reason that we chose the term families rather than just marriages is because it doesn't

00:42:04.340 just destroy the marriage, doesn't just ruin the marriage, it destroys the entire family.

00:42:09.160 So a subset of that is parental alienation, which is where the reviling wife turns the children against the husband.

00:42:20.760 And in many of these cases, the man has no relationship with his children after the destruction of his marriage.

00:42:27.800 So it's Proverbs 14.1, with folly, she tears down her own house.

00:42:32.880 but the white knight pastor or counselor is directly contributing to that destruction

00:42:40.080 so it's a it's a devastating situation and kevin i i've said this before that i've counseled about

00:42:49.760 300 of these situations 300 not an exaggeration probably an underestimation because i've lost

00:42:57.820 track, I talk to these men pretty much every day. They contact me because of my first book,

00:43:04.260 The Abusive Wife. And I think it's going to exponentially increase with the new book that

00:43:10.020 will be coming out. So that's kind of the landscape of the situation. And I do not have

00:43:17.620 a vendetta against women. I'm not a misogynist. I talk about this in my own church. And I was even

00:43:26.160 talking about this in a sermon yesterday at my church. And I said, you know, you, you people

00:43:33.280 know me, you know, you know what I'm like, but this is what's going on in the church. And

00:43:39.140 I'm not a misogynist, not a hater of women. I love my wife. I love my mother. You know,

00:43:46.360 I don't have mommy issues. I don't have daddy issues, things like that. It's like, no, this is

00:43:51.080 just being a faithful preacher and counselor of the word of god we hold everyone accountable

00:43:58.080 not just men you have to hold women accountable and sadly that's the one person that is not

00:44:05.960 typically held accountable because i think i think the average man is afraid of doing that

00:44:11.160 and um we can get into reasons of why that is but i think that's the bottom line and that's

00:44:17.100 why the white knight thinks he's being brave and courageous in doing this, but he's actually

00:44:21.880 contributing to the destruction of the entire family. Again, not just the marriage, but the

00:44:28.700 children as well. So parental alienation is probably the most devastating and painful part

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00:48:23.120 and that's a pretty bleak picture um i'm curious so we mentioned earlier 10 years since you wrote

00:48:34.040 the abusive wife and and it's been gaining more and more traction um yes why release this new book

00:48:41.160 what what's changed in the 10 years um is is this just your own own personal drum to beat

00:48:48.260 Is this is as has there been any shift, any change?

00:48:53.340 What's the reason for the new book?

00:48:56.480 Yeah, you know, it's something I never really anticipated would become a big issue or that even it was a big issue.

00:49:03.360 When I wrote my first book and 10 years ago in 2015, I knew of some cases, but I didn't know it was that bad of a problem.

00:49:13.220 But in those intervening 10 years, I've met so many people now that have talked to me and asked for help with this that, frankly, I've learned a lot more in the last 10 years about how deeply ingrained this problem is in the church.

00:49:32.180 I'm not just talking about in society.

00:49:34.220 I'm talking about in our churches, good, solid Bible teaching churches.

00:49:39.080 so as i'm counseling more and more of these families i'm learning more and more about

00:49:47.060 just how deep this problem is and i thought i have to write on this in more depth and really

00:49:54.800 help more people with this more men i really want to help women with this but my heart is to help

00:50:01.840 pastors too because if pastors get this wrong it's going to keep getting worse and worse and it has

00:50:08.720 gotten worse in the last 10 years. I think it's gotten exponentially worse. We've got all the

00:50:14.660 gender confusion going on. We've got people, you know, people don't know which bathroom to use 1.00

00:50:19.580 anymore and, you know, just crazy things. And it's no wonder that we're confused about just simple

00:50:26.920 biblical roles of men and women, male and female roles, husband and wife roles. We're getting that 0.97

00:50:36.440 exactly backwards in many, many cases. Absolutely. And one of the things I thought

00:50:44.220 was particularly helpful in your new book is you actually begin the very first chapter

00:50:49.420 is just a very thorough look at patriarchy as it's defined by the Bible. But then you

00:50:55.780 take that out, expand that out, and you show where that shows up in the family and the church

00:51:02.280 and broaden it. For you, why was this such an important first chapter to start with?

00:51:08.880 I think it's the beginning point, because if men don't get leadership right,

00:51:15.340 everything else is going to be wrong. I used to embrace the complementarian view of male headship.

00:51:23.360 And frankly, what I saw was that it basically became the man was only a tiebreaker in decision

00:51:30.600 making rather than leading, rather than the authority in the home. And when we're talking

00:51:36.300 about authority in the home and leadership, we're not talking about domineering. We're not talking

00:51:40.600 about being a tyrant. We're not talking about being cruel and mean and harsh. We're just simply

00:51:47.820 talking about a man that leads his home. He gives direction in his home. And this is an important

00:51:54.580 starting point, because if a man does not do that, then a wife is forced to be in that position. And

00:52:01.040 now she has to take over the role that God did not design her for. So getting patriarchy right, 1.00

00:52:08.020 biblical patriarchy, not just men being an authority, but biblically, they're loving,

00:52:15.360 they're serving, they're kind, they're compassionate, they're forgiving, but they

00:52:20.600 have to be the authority. They have to lead. And so this has to start in the home. It has to be in

00:52:26.820 our churches, and it must be in our society as well. And these are things that we have failed at

00:52:34.000 largely in the church and in our society. And until we get that right, everything else is

00:52:41.780 going to be wrong. And marriages are being destroyed. It is a tragedy. I hate when someone 0.96

00:52:49.940 tells me that we're getting a divorce no matter who's at fault i hate that it just it just rips

00:52:56.860 my heart apart and then when the parental alienation comes on and i see usually a wife

00:53:03.240 turning the children against the father it's just oh it's like it's like another death for these

00:53:09.100 poor men because you know you think about it kevin that first the man is being rejected by his wife

00:53:15.240 Secondly, he's being rejected by his church, his pastor.

00:53:19.460 And then thirdly, he's rejected by his own children.

00:53:22.900 So men need to understand what biblical patriarchy is and understand this is what God's designed.

00:53:30.840 This is God's structure.

00:53:33.040 This is the way God designed men and women.

00:53:36.980 And until men see that, this is not going to change.

00:53:41.660 Yeah.

00:53:41.760 But that's not the end of the story, though, is it?

00:53:43.960 It's not just biblical patriarchy and then everything's solved.

00:53:47.320 It's like, no, that's the beginning point.

00:53:49.180 That's not the end of it, though.

00:53:51.400 So when you're talking with all of these men who truly do have reviling wives, do they tend to be fairly similar in the kind of man they are?

00:54:03.960 In other words, do they tend to be sort of maybe a little more apathetic in their leadership or the direction of their home?

00:54:17.160 What kind of guys usually do you find having a reviling wife?

00:54:22.600 I wouldn't say that they're necessarily apathetic, but I would say that they are kind men.

00:54:29.860 They're loving men.

00:54:31.400 They love their wives dearly.

00:54:33.600 They loved their children.

00:54:34.700 They would do anything for their children.

00:54:38.180 They might err more on the side of being more passive than aggressive.

00:54:43.320 They're certainly not tyrants in their home.

00:54:46.300 They're certainly not overbearing.

00:54:48.540 And yet, the narrative that the reviling wife sets says that this man is overbearing. 0.95

00:54:55.560 He is a tyrant.

00:54:56.540 He is always angry. 1.00

00:54:57.740 He always lies.

00:54:58.680 And these are all things that the reviling wife will say about the man.

00:55:03.600 But he's a good man. Out of those 300 cases that I've counseled, I think I've had two of them

00:55:10.640 that the man was actually the problem. He was the aggressor. He was a bad man. He was not a

00:55:18.440 solid Christian, if he was a Christian at all. But the other ones, the other 298 or so, 0.80

00:55:27.120 they're good men. They're godly men. They're men that love the Lord. They love the scriptures.

00:55:31.580 they love the church, and they have wives that just, they will not submit, they will not follow,

00:55:39.720 they will fight in every sense of the word. Sometimes they will physically fight against

00:55:46.600 the husband, unprovoked. The husband did not do anything, nothing physical towards his wife,

00:55:54.060 nothing even to poke her, to get her to attack him. But she is so full of that anger and rage

00:56:00.380 that I've had many, many cases where the wife physically assaults domestic violence against 1.00

00:56:07.700 the husband. And now it's like, boy, now we're really, we're really in deep waters now.

00:56:13.900 Yeah. So you wouldn't say that these are men who are, um, they don't want to lead that they

00:56:20.940 want to lead that you just have a woman. These reviling wives demand control. In fact, there's a, 1.00

00:56:30.340 there's a part of this in your book where you, um, you describe the reviling wife's chief desire

00:56:36.820 and you say that it could be summed up in one word, which is control. Uh, could you explain

00:56:43.020 that a little bit? Because I think some people might imagine this woman as being married to a 0.99

00:56:48.540 very lazy man who just won't do anything. So I have to take up this, the helm, you know,

00:56:54.840 to, to write this ship. Um, so yeah, could you speak to that word control? What,

00:57:00.020 what does that look like in the home? Sure. Sure. Yeah. It's, um, you know, it's for,

00:57:06.460 it's first of all, again, it's, these are not, these are not men that are lazy, apathetic.

00:57:11.020 They're not indifference. These are men that want to lead. And, and yet, as you know, if you're

00:57:18.680 going to lead, you have to have a follower. So if you want to lead in a certain direction and

00:57:23.220 people behind you say no we're not doing that it's like okay how do i lead you then how do i 0.93

00:57:28.380 how do i do this but these are the women that would say i don't want you to lead i want to make 0.99

00:57:35.000 the decisions i want to be in control i want you husband to follow me and submit to me or they'll

00:57:43.040 say you know what if you want to lead husband here's how i want you to lead i'll tell you how

00:57:49.580 to lead. And, you know, so in effect, you go, well, wait a minute, the man's not leading anymore.

00:57:55.140 Similar to a church, you know, if you're in a church and you're a pastor and you're leading

00:57:58.460 your congregation and the congregation says, oh, pastor, we want you to do this. We don't want you

00:58:03.980 to do that. He's no longer leading his church or a CEO and a company, right? If all the employees

00:58:10.260 say, you know what, we want you to go this way, CEO, not that way. He's no longer leading

00:58:17.080 eventually so this is a this is a basic building block of humanity of society that men lead and

00:58:24.960 women follow leaders lead and then the employees will follow or even in the military we see it the

00:58:31.260 same way the general gives gives an order and then the people under him follow him they don't rebel

00:58:37.860 against him it's not anarchy so it's puzzling to me how we don't get that how we don't a lot of

00:58:44.180 times we don't see that. It's like, that is just a normal order of everything in life. You don't

00:58:48.620 tell your boss at work, I'm not going to follow your direction. So why would a wife in the home 1.00

00:58:54.620 think that she could do that there? So again, we keep getting back to that same issue. It's like, 0.96

00:59:01.420 okay, so the first issue is biblical patriarchy that men needing to learn how to lead. The second

00:59:07.780 issue is submission that wives need to understand that submission is the one biblical command.

00:59:14.180 that scripture gives to them in regards to their, to their marriage.

00:59:19.500 But saying the S word is a, is a dangerous thing now, isn't it? It's like, oh yeah,

00:59:24.780 those are fighting words now. It's like, no, they shouldn't be fighting words. Look at how

00:59:30.840 much we've let our culture affect us. Look at how much we've let feminism affect us. 0.68

00:59:36.760 Yeah. Why, why is that such a dirty word? Because when I, you know, being a pastor myself, 1.00

00:59:42.220 doing lots of biblical counseling um it just seems so crystal clear in the scriptures

00:59:48.220 the way it doesn't leave much to your imagination i mean it's it gives some pretty explicit commands

00:59:54.360 we see from the very beginning of genesis genesis 3 um that uh that the wife's desire will be for

01:00:02.400 her husband we see throughout the proverbs that this is going to be a temptation to not do this

01:00:08.100 thing, to try and take control. Hebrews 11 even commends Sarah in the way that she obeyed and

01:00:16.380 followed Abraham, even in very difficult circumstances, tremendous circumstances,

01:00:23.000 to which in 1 Peter 3, Peter commends her, right? He commends her for the way that she

01:00:29.700 trusted the Lord, ultimately. And so there's just countless examples of this. And it's baffling to

01:00:37.740 me, how have we gotten here to where this is, to where the S word submission is such a dirty word?

01:00:45.820 Right. And, and it is the infiltration of feminism into our society, but here's what's happened. 1.00

01:00:51.960 There's some, there's some very dangerous philosophies that have also crept into not

01:00:59.500 only society, but even into the church. There's several of them that I, that I articulate in the

01:01:06.000 book. One of them is what's called the Duluth power and control wheel. And this philosophy

01:01:13.120 is used by many counselors, including many professing biblical counselors, that this

01:01:21.360 philosophy basically says that male headship is wrong. Not just some male headship, but all male

01:01:30.120 headship. A man trying to lead is toxic. It's wrong. And it has to be dismantled. It has to be,

01:01:36.860 let's destroy the patriarchy. That is embedded in this Duluth power and control wheel. And some

01:01:45.040 people try to use this and they say, well, we'll just kind of massage it a little bit and make it

01:01:49.680 make it a little more palatable. And yet what happens is it is destructive. And yet pastors

01:01:58.120 and counselors embrace this philosophy and they practice it in their churches and in their

01:02:04.580 counseling. A second one that comes along very closely related to that is called critical gender

01:02:12.140 theory. And we're probably all familiar with critical race theory, which basically says that

01:02:20.180 racism is systemic in society. And you and I being white, straight men, Kevin, are the worst 0.98

01:02:28.200 racists that there are because we're straight white men. And it automatically condemns. And it 0.98

01:02:36.420 says you are in the wrong. If you deny that you're a racist, then you're in the worst possible

01:02:42.980 situation. Well, just take the term race out and put the term gender in there. So now critical

01:02:51.240 gender theory is doing the same thing that critical race theory does. It says that just by you being

01:02:58.800 a man, the nature of you being a man is a systemic problem in society. We have to destroy male 0.96

01:03:04.860 headship, men that are in charge. We have to ruin that. We need more women in charge in homes. We 0.99

01:03:11.460 need more women in charge in the workplace. We need more women in charge in politics and in 1.00

01:03:16.080 government and the police force and the military. And so these things have infiltrated into our 1.00

01:03:24.060 church and they have overturned the clear teachings of the word of God. The word of God

01:03:32.040 has to be our authority, not these philosophies, because they are not only empty, they are

01:03:37.580 destructive. And again, just like the title says, how feminism destroys families, that's what it 1.00

01:03:44.960 does. It gives permission to the women to end the marriage. And there's a lot of so-called 1.00

01:03:53.920 conservative women that are teaching this to other women. And it is absolutely horrific what's

01:04:04.300 happening and i go through the names of some of these people in my book i don't want to talk about

01:04:11.280 them here on the podcast but you'll find out when you read the book yeah it's it's a it's it's a

01:04:19.320 rough chapter to read yeah pretty direct yeah it is very it's very direct but it it's more sad that

01:04:25.640 that's actually taking place in the church absolutely because it seems like something that

01:04:30.220 You wouldn't be surprised to see it outside of the church, but this is things that have the label of biblical counseling.

01:04:37.680 And it's just unbelievable.

01:04:40.300 You know, one of the things we were talking about a little bit behind the scenes was you had sent me some documents from ACBC and the PCA that talk about abuse.

01:04:49.600 And one of the interesting things you were pointing out was that none of them will touch this issue of the reviling wife and some of the abuse that happens there.

01:04:59.140 What is behind that? I mean, you would think ACBC is quite conservative, the PCA.

01:05:08.740 You would think that there would be some mention of this, even just as a possibility, but they don't include any of this information.

01:05:16.840 Why do you think that is?

01:05:18.860 Right. You know, sadly, I think it's the same thing that we just discussed of why it's there.

01:05:23.400 I've tried. I've tried to get attention with this.

01:05:26.380 I've sent my book. I've sent articles. I've tried to get articles published and they don't show any interest in this issue.

01:05:35.680 So those documents on abuse by the ACBC and by the PCA, you know, they're basically like, well, it's all one sided.

01:05:44.880 And then there's kind of a grudging admission. Well, there are some women like this, too.

01:05:48.640 But then that's about all that is said. And it's like, oh, no, we're missing out on the on a big, big issue.

01:05:55.580 This is a massive, massive issue. And what's fascinating to me is that the leaders don't see it, but the men that are going through it, they know it. They don't need statistics to tell them that this is happening.

01:06:11.720 You know, they don't have to see, okay, well, the statistics don't say that women abuse men. I don't really care what statistics say. I care about what's really happening. And these men, they contact every man. I just had one this morning contact me. He said, boy, I listened to a podcast by you. I read your book.

01:06:33.120 and pretty much everything you described happens to a T in my marriage right now.

01:06:41.040 So, man, it's still married.

01:06:43.260 It says, I need help because my pastor, my church won't help me.

01:06:47.280 In fact, they're condemning me.

01:06:48.620 What do I do?

01:06:50.080 How do I get out of this?

01:06:52.740 So, if there's something that's systemic, it's this.

01:06:56.160 It's that we're denying the reality, even the possibility of there being such a thing as a reviling wife.

01:07:04.680 And you go, why would we do that?

01:07:06.700 Scripture is replete with examples of this.

01:07:10.200 You know, there's a bunch of Proverbs that talk about the reviling wife, the quarrelsome wife, the argumentative wife that, you know, 0.96

01:07:18.340 the one that's better on the corner of a housetop or being out living in the desert than to be with her. 1.00

01:07:26.160 she's like a dripping faucet. You know, there's so many different examples that are laid out in

01:07:34.080 Scripture. Proverbs 27, 15, and 16, a continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife

01:07:43.700 are alike. To restrain her is to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right hand. So, 0.99

01:07:51.860 this describes exactly what these men are going through. And not only is that painful for them to

01:07:58.860 go through, but nobody comes to their defense. Nobody even gives them a listen to hear what

01:08:04.740 they're saying. It's automatic. Here's the way sometimes it gets described, Kevin, is that

01:08:12.480 we've got a husband who's angry, and so we hold the husband accountable for his anger,

01:08:20.120 which is exactly what we should do. We should say, okay, why are you so angry? Let's examine

01:08:25.980 the scriptures. Let's probe your heart. What are you so angry about? But now when we turn it over

01:08:32.620 and say, here's a wife who's very angry, now what happens is we say, well, husband, what are you

01:08:39.600 doing to make your wife so angry? So, you know, again, she's never held accountable and he's

01:08:45.700 condemned. It can't be this way. This is not what the scriptures teach. Everyone is responsible.

01:08:52.940 Everyone is accountable for their own sin. You are, I am, these men are, these women are.

01:08:59.540 And it should not be a rare thing for a counselor to say, okay, man, here's where you're sinning.

01:09:05.880 Here's where you need God's grace working stronger in your heart and you have to repent.

01:09:11.040 And then at the same time saying, okay, wife, here's what you're doing.

01:09:15.820 You need to have a softened heart, and you need to turn from your sins in this way.

01:09:20.980 It's not rocket science, right?

01:09:23.460 It's pretty basic.

01:09:25.120 It's pretty straightforward.

01:09:26.360 Yet, we have raised a generation of men that are afraid to do that.

01:09:34.160 Now, I'm a baby boomer.

01:09:35.580 I know you're far away from that, but you know, that's, I think you, I think you told

01:09:43.100 me that you, you, uh, you were born like the year after I started seminary or something

01:09:47.300 like that.

01:09:47.880 I go, it's like, that's okay.

01:09:52.440 That's all right.

01:09:53.640 Um, but, uh, you know, we've raised a generation that way.

01:09:57.260 I think the baby boomer generation basically has been fed that lie that you cannot lead.

01:10:04.460 you should not lead if a woman is upset about anything it's your fault and then likewise we've

01:10:11.100 taught the wife a lie as well we've taught women to say you got to empower yourself you can you

01:10:16.860 can be strong you go girl don't let any man tell you what to do in fact you don't need a man you 0.89

01:10:23.480 just need a cat and your taylor swift albums and you'll be fine so that's a lie from the pits of

01:10:29.500 fell so yeah let's poke the air all over kevin right yeah man you know

01:10:39.840 it sounds like there's some stuff that's gotten into the church that's got to go

01:10:45.540 and interestingly here we are uh in 2025 this new administration change we've got this great

01:10:53.800 takedown of DEI programs, some of the CRT and woke nonsense, all that's happening with Doge.

01:11:01.100 It seems like the church is in desperate need of this same kind of clean out. We need our own

01:11:08.400 Doge program for the church. What do you think you see as the biggest, the corrections that the

01:11:15.600 church needs to make as it relates to counseling and pastoral shepherding? Yeah. I think that

01:11:23.500 I think this is really a major issue, the one that we're talking about right now.

01:11:29.240 There's other things that are important.

01:11:30.700 But if we hold to biblical authority, we hold to the scriptures, have the answers, the solutions to every problem of living.

01:11:40.220 If we are dedicated to ministering the word of God, that's Acts chapter 6, verse 4.

01:11:46.560 We minister the word of God.

01:11:47.960 We're devoted to prayer and the ministry of the word.

01:11:50.340 that means the ministry of the word publicly when we're preaching and that means the ministry of

01:11:56.720 the word privately when we're counseling the word of god is the authority not our culture

01:12:01.700 not our opinions not our experience and so now if we really believe that there should not be

01:12:09.660 anything controversial in what you and i are talking about today we'd say we should say of

01:12:13.940 course, of course, that's right. But because it is controversial, this is touching on a massive

01:12:21.700 problem that we have in the church today. And I'll say this too, Kevin, what has really surprised me

01:12:29.800 over these past 10 years is how many good, solid churches. You could go to these churches and

01:12:40.360 listen to the preaching and say, man, that's a church I want to be a part of. I love this. I

01:12:45.000 love this guy's preaching. I love what he says. He's solid. And then you get to the counseling

01:12:51.060 realm and you go, this is a different guy. What happened? Where did he go? He's bold when he's

01:12:56.660 preaching. But when he's in the counseling office, face to face with someone, now he folds or the

01:13:04.800 pastor abdicates and says, I got to send you out to somebody else to counsel because I don't know

01:13:09.060 what I'm doing. That's telling us a big sickness in the church, a massive problem. I knew this 30

01:13:17.640 something years ago when I got my certification in ACBC. And I thought, boy, this is something

01:13:22.940 I need because I didn't get it in seminary. I need that understanding of how do I shepherd

01:13:29.520 my people? How do I be a pastor to my people? I need to be a teacher, but I also need to be a

01:13:39.160 shepherd, someone that cares for my flock. And that means sometimes they have to be corrected

01:13:44.700 and rebuked. That should not just be in preaching. I'm all for expository preaching. In fact,

01:13:51.080 that's what my master divinity is in, expository preaching. And that's the only practice I've ever

01:13:56.860 had as a pastor now for 30, 33 years, but we've got to do this in the counseling office too.

01:14:05.460 And pastors should be counseling their flock also, not just sending their people out to others,

01:14:12.100 certainly not to the world, certainly not to a psychologist or a secular psychotherapist,

01:14:20.520 But even to a biblical counselor, pastors should be vetting these people and making sure,

01:14:27.660 is this really counsel that uses the Bible?

01:14:31.240 Does it really use the word of God?

01:14:32.920 Or does it just give lip service to it?

01:14:35.860 So, you know, these are big issues. 1.00

01:14:39.040 And feminism seems to be a massively destructive one. 1.00

01:14:45.000 I don't know that there's a bigger issue for the church today.

01:14:49.060 And again, I didn't go out seeking this.

01:14:52.060 It wasn't like I said, oh, I got to talk about this.

01:14:56.120 The main reason I wrote The Abusive Wife, the book 10 years ago, was there was nothing on it.

01:15:01.820 And now 10 years later, guess how much has been written about The Abusive Wife?

01:15:06.600 Zero.

01:15:07.820 There's still nothing on it.

01:15:09.100 So that's why I have to do another one.

01:15:11.980 I have to do another book on this.

01:15:13.320 And New Christendom was kind enough to approach me and say, hey, we'd love to publish your next book. Would you be interested? So that's how that came about. But it's going to go much deeper than The Abusive Wife. It's going to cover a lot of ground, as you know.

01:15:31.260 you've read, you've read the manuscript and, and just so everybody knows, um, Kevin, you made some

01:15:37.540 excellent suggestions to improve, uh, that, that manuscript. And I'm really grateful for your

01:15:44.760 friendship and your supports and the things that you mentioned. So I just want to publicly thank

01:15:50.540 you for that. Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be able to be a part of the process.

01:15:54.760 It's been a huge blessing in my life and it's helped me a lot as a, um, as a counselor, um,

01:16:00.620 And to be able to shepherd the ladies in our church better as well, I can definitely agree as I look out and I'm trying to, I'm always on the look for good, good biblical materials in the counseling space.

01:16:17.880 And there just truly is nothing about this topic.

01:16:21.300 And yet the scriptures make it so clear that it's a problem and it's not going anywhere. 0.99

01:16:28.300 It's just, it's a feminine sin. 0.97

01:16:30.180 And it's something that we have to be ready to speak to as we see it. 0.99

01:16:35.640 And, you know, we have to take the blinders off as the church, as the people of God.

01:16:40.940 We've got these blinders on that say, this is all that I see.

01:16:43.600 I don't see anything else.

01:16:44.880 Well, it's because you're willfully blinding yourself to what's right before you.

01:16:50.540 You know, I don't look at myself as smarter than all these other pastors and counselors.

01:16:55.040 It's not like I've got more training than they do.

01:16:57.900 But for some reason, God has given me eyes to see these things.

01:17:01.040 And I go, how come nobody else is seeing this?

01:17:03.680 Very few people are seeing this.

01:17:06.460 So, as you know, I couldn't get any publishers to publish my first book.

01:17:11.460 I mean, I tried a number of them, and I will not name their names, but they're well-known publishers.

01:17:17.960 And they told me that, oh, this is too controversial.

01:17:21.940 The Abusive Wife, no, that's too controversial.

01:17:24.220 We don't want to talk about this.

01:17:25.760 Others would say, well, I think you're going to offend a lot of women by this book.

01:17:32.360 And the third thing I heard was that, well, it's probably not that big of a problem.

01:17:37.840 Now, all three of those statements are wrong.

01:17:40.680 They're all false.

01:17:42.320 It is a big problem. 0.99

01:17:45.520 Yes, it will offend some women, of course, but there have been many women that have been helped by the abusive wife.

01:17:51.780 I've had many women that have contacted me says, thank you for writing this.

01:17:56.500 I see myself in this and I want to change. And so I go, praise God. Wonderful.

01:18:02.760 Absolutely. I want to help you with that. And, um, and yet is it a big problem? Oh, it's,

01:18:07.920 it's growing. It's way worse now than it was 10 years ago. The other thing too, Kevin, I didn't

01:18:13.420 mention is that what has happened by doing podcasts is that the reach of this message

01:18:23.160 has gone around the world. So I'm not just talking about America. I'm talking about at least a dozen

01:18:30.260 other countries that I've had people contact me and say, I'm seeing this in my own family,

01:18:37.280 in my own church, with my own pastor. Can you help me? So I counsel men around the world on this

01:18:44.260 because of Zoom and FaceTime and things like that. So this is by no means only an American problem.

01:18:52.180 It has gone around the world. And sadly, I think America leads in a lot of these areas. It's a bad

01:18:59.560 way that we lead. We kind of export our bad things to other countries too. This is one of them.

01:19:06.420 So we need to change that.

01:19:07.740 Now we need to export.

01:19:09.200 Oh, Clay.

01:19:09.980 Okay.

01:19:10.340 Hold men accountable. 1.00

01:19:11.860 Hold women accountable. 0.90

01:19:13.580 Again, it's not complicated.

01:19:15.320 It's not hard.

01:19:17.520 So it sounds like one of the things you're saying is that some of this is people truly not seeing the issue, probably from a lot of the indoctrination that's happened.

01:19:29.280 These ideas have taken root in their mind from outside of the church.

01:19:33.320 They've consumed them.

01:19:34.760 They've eaten them up.

01:19:35.580 And now they're kind of regurgitating them and it's causing huge problems.

01:19:40.580 But then another part, it sounds like from what you're saying, is that there is a will, just a willful ignorance, kind of an ostrich with their head in the sand. 0.87

01:19:49.260 Look, I know if I speak to some feminine sin, it's not going to go well. 1.00

01:19:55.220 I'm going to make some ladies mad. 1.00

01:19:56.700 So let's just let's just go easy. 0.99

01:19:59.600 You know, we'll try to make small corrections, but I'm not going to take a stand and say, no, Mrs. So-and-so, you are this reviling wife who is blaspheming the word of God, as we see in Titus 2. 0.97

01:20:13.960 You're slandering your husband and you're blaspheming the word of God. 0.86

01:20:17.540 That takes a great deal of courage to be able to do.

01:20:22.420 And that is the appropriate word.

01:20:24.860 It's kind of ironic that you mentioned that. I was just talking to someone, I think it was yesterday, about that issue. And he said that, well, my pastor said that I can see that your wife is in error, but if I try to hold your wife accountable, a bunch of people are going to leave my church.

01:20:48.820 What are you kidding me? You see it and you still don't want to take a stand?

01:20:57.060 And you mentioned Titus 2.5. It's exactly the passage. It should be a very convicting passage

01:21:06.200 where it talks about older women helping the younger women. And it says to be submissive

01:21:12.560 to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. And the word there for

01:21:18.460 reviled is the word blasphemed. So you think about that when you are not urging and teaching

01:21:25.700 and holding a woman accountable to be submissive to her husband, you're encouraging her to blaspheme 0.99

01:21:31.620 God. Why is that? Why would that be blasphemy? Well, it's basically saying that this individual 0.74

01:21:39.080 knows better than God does. This woman knows better than God does. So she takes authority

01:21:45.760 over what God's Word says.

01:21:47.880 She, in essence, writes her own Bible. 0.96

01:21:49.980 That is blasphemy.

01:21:52.240 So this is a destructive, destructive sin

01:21:57.700 that we just can't ignore it.

01:22:01.520 So I kind of lost my train of thought.

01:22:05.680 I go on all these tensions

01:22:07.440 because we have so many things to talk about.

01:22:09.780 I know.

01:22:11.320 Well, I'll tell you, back to that political...

01:22:14.140 I wrote a book on this. I'm all clear on myself. And it is an excellent book. Back to the point

01:22:22.440 kind of of courage is just like we're seeing politically how quick things can turn around. 0.77

01:22:28.060 And the freedom that men are feeling now to, yeah, this is ridiculous. And I can stand up and

01:22:36.440 my job isn't at risk. This isn't at risk. I can actually be a man and not be afraid to be

01:22:43.420 canceled or whatever else. I think now it truly is an excellent time for men to stand up.

01:22:52.000 We have to, I mean, regardless of the circumstances, we have to be obedient to the word.

01:22:56.580 We must stand up. But now just seems like a, just such a ripe opportunity to take hold of and to do

01:23:04.100 that same thing within the church, within our families and within the church. And it is going

01:23:09.460 to take a lot of work. It is not going to be easy. But now is the time. We can't wait around any

01:23:15.780 longer. Exactly. Yeah, you reminded me of where I was going with that. So thank you for bringing

01:23:21.400 me back. Yeah, it's the call to courage, right? You know, be strong, be courageous, be bold.

01:23:31.180 These are biblical commands. They're not suggestions for us. And this is the way men

01:23:38.280 need to be. We need to learn to be that way. And again, this does not mean be cruel, be nasty, 0.84

01:23:44.460 be arrogant, be prideful, be pushy. You know, we're not talking about that. We're just saying 0.80

01:23:49.780 be bold, be courageous and lead. You know, one of my friends was asking about the difference between

01:23:57.200 confidence and courage recently. And I'm thinking, well, confidence is the belief that you can do

01:24:05.740 something. You can stand and do something. And courage is actually doing it. Courage means,

01:24:12.640 okay, I'm going to do this. Not just say I can, not just believe in my heart I can do this, but

01:24:17.480 the courage is I'm actually going to bring this about. So this is what's missing in a lot of our

01:24:25.480 pastoral ministry and a lot of our counseling ministries as well, in a lot of men leading in

01:24:32.580 their homes to rise up with courage, to be strong in the Lord and the strength of his might.

01:24:39.360 This is sorely lacking. We've got men that want to just take the easy way out. And the easy way

01:24:46.380 out is I'll back down because she's going to get angry. We go, can't do that, men. Can't do that.

01:24:53.620 You've got to be courageous. And again, I just have to keep repeating this because people

01:24:58.600 misunderstand this. We're not talking about being cruel and mean and nasty and aggressive. We're

01:25:06.480 just saying just stand where God stands. And that's when you're in a good place, man. And we

01:25:15.060 need that not only in the pulpit in preaching. We have that a lot of good conservative churches,

01:25:20.600 but we need that in the counseling office when we're counseling and saying, no, I'm going to

01:25:25.340 hold this woman accountable just as I'm holding this man accountable. So husband, you do the same

01:25:31.340 thing in your home. We need that. We need that kind of a teaching and instruction. And that's

01:25:40.960 a hard issue. You know, it's far too easy to be the white knight because you look like the hero,

01:25:46.540 look like, boy, look at this, I saved this poor woman. And all the while, you were a coward. 1.00

01:25:52.300 There's a lot of cowardice in our pastoral ministries today. 0.97

01:25:56.500 A lot of men, they know better, just like the example you gave and the example I gave.

01:26:01.220 They know better, but they will not take a stand.

01:26:05.740 Are we willing to die for what the Word of God says?

01:26:08.960 Well, we should.

01:26:10.900 But are you willing to suffer for what the Word of God says?

01:26:14.400 Well, I don't know about that.

01:26:16.780 You know, this shouldn't be.

01:26:18.300 This cannot be.

01:26:19.660 So there's a real lack of that courageous, strong leadership that we need to instill in especially younger men, but even older men, too.

01:26:31.840 I was counseling an older man today.

01:26:34.600 He's a little bit younger than I am, but he's still an older man.

01:26:37.280 And just urging him on to strength and to courage and to say, you know, this is what needs to happen.

01:26:45.480 because his wife was feeling the mantle of leadership and a good wife, a good woman is

01:26:53.940 going to look at that and say, I don't want to lead. This is not my domain. This is not what

01:27:00.400 God has assigned to me. This is for you, husband. That's the way a wife should see that. But the

01:27:08.240 reviling wife, she doesn't. She looks at that and says, oh yeah, I'm much better at leading than you

01:27:13.580 are. You're nothing. You're no good. You don't know what you're doing. You're lost. Get out of

01:27:20.400 the way and let me lead. Isn't that what we see in movies? Isn't that what we see in TV shows?

01:27:26.640 The woman always comes to rescue the poor, hapless, defenseless man. Well, huh, isn't that

01:27:33.420 funny? Our culture and our movies and our churches, they're very similar, aren't they?

01:27:39.720 maybe some, maybe something should change in that should change in our homes,

01:27:45.180 should change in our churches. We should look different.

01:27:48.960 We should look different than the world. Shouldn't we? Absolutely.

01:27:52.760 We should not be just like the world. Yeah, we must,

01:27:56.640 we must look different. Absolutely.

01:28:00.820 If a listener hears some of what we're talking about today and, um,

01:28:06.180 sort of takes a red pill, if you will, has their eyes opened to this problem. Maybe they even see

01:28:13.360 this in their own lives. It seems like one of the things that could be quick to happen is just to

01:28:20.300 become discouraged or fearful of marriage. Maybe a young man is looking to get married and go,

01:28:26.180 man, this sounds kind of bleak. This is not very encouraging, not very exciting.

01:28:31.640 um i would imagine even some people listening might even think man seeing so many of these

01:28:38.940 cases he's probably become quite jaded on marriage pastor edgington has become quite uh jaded on

01:28:46.640 marriage and the church because because he has to look at this all the time if you were to address

01:28:51.780 this just just head on here what is your position on marriage and and and it's parallel with the

01:28:58.320 church? Are you jaded? Are you black-pilled, if you will? Or do you have a positive view

01:29:04.400 of marriage and the church? Yes. I have a wonderful view of marriage because this is

01:29:11.300 what the Word of God teaches. I know our culture has its problems, but marriage is a beautiful

01:29:18.380 thing. I'm very happily married to my wife, and we, you know, people don't believe me that don't

01:29:25.680 know me, but when I say this, I say, you know, my wife and I don't argue. We don't fight about

01:29:33.140 things. We may not always agree on things, but that's okay. But we don't argue. We don't fight.

01:29:39.080 She's not contentious and I'm not a tyrant. And we have wonderful peace in our home and it gets

01:29:44.840 better every day. Every year our marriage gets sweeter and sweeter. I deliberately ended my

01:29:53.340 book, the book with the white knights and reviling wives, I deliberately ended it the last chapter

01:29:59.440 with a chapter exactly addressing this question, because there's so much bad news that I'm giving

01:30:06.260 there. I have to end it with the good news of what God intends for marriage. And I actually

01:30:13.220 wrote another book on this. It's called Romancing Your Savior and Your Spouse. And that's another

01:30:20.680 book that's available on Amazon that I wrote, and it points out the beauty and the glory and the

01:30:26.820 wonder of what marriage is supposed to be. I go through the Song of Songs, also called the Song

01:30:32.980 of Solomon, verse by verse, to unpack that and to show that, that this is what marriage is supposed

01:30:39.780 to be. And you can have this kind of marriage. If you've got a man of God and you've got a woman of

01:30:46.520 God, and they're both pursuing the Lord, this is what you want. This is the kind of marriage that

01:30:52.120 you can have, and you should aspire to have. So, I am by no means negative about marriage.

01:31:01.860 On the other hand, I am urging men, especially younger men, you have to wake up and understand

01:31:09.180 what's going on out there. You have to understand that there are many of these kinds of women out

01:31:16.300 there. And you're going to have to take your time. Don't just look at a pretty face and a pretty 0.99

01:31:21.380 figure. That's not enough. You want to see the hidden person of the heart, like 1 Peter 3

01:31:26.800 describes. That's the kind of wife. That's the Proverbs 31 wife. Beauty is vain, but a woman who 1.00

01:31:35.760 fears the Lord shall be praised. That's what you want to pursue. So don't just look for the 1.00

01:31:43.140 trappings, the external appearance of things, even a tradcon wife, that's not enough. It has to be, 0.99

01:31:51.180 do you really want to do this? Is this really what marriage is all about?

01:31:57.180 Is there a sense of a submission to this man that you're about to marry? Is this a woman that will

01:32:04.360 follow you, husband? You want to be sure of that as much as is sure. So take your time.

01:32:11.700 Don't rush into things.

01:32:13.240 Don't be quick to get married.

01:32:16.000 But by no means am I cynical about marriage.

01:32:19.320 I'm just, you know, it's the old saying, trust but verify, right?

01:32:24.640 Yeah.

01:32:25.000 Okay.

01:32:25.680 I trust you, but I'm going to verify.

01:32:28.060 I want to make sure that you are who you appear to be.

01:32:31.540 And that's what men need to do.

01:32:33.920 And the same for women, too.

01:32:35.820 I mean, I'm not just looking at this as a female problem.

01:32:38.720 sometimes the man is not the kind of man he needs to be. So women need to be cautious and 1.00

01:32:44.040 in looking for the right men. But I know a lot of good men from their twenties up till their sixties 1.00

01:32:52.540 in age, twenties to sixties. Those are the men that I usually counsel sometimes guys in their

01:32:58.160 seventies, even that some of these men have been married for decades and then their marriage ends.

01:33:06.120 And that is just absolutely devastating.

01:33:08.280 How do I pick up the pieces after that?

01:33:10.780 Well, that's what I help these men to do.

01:33:13.400 And there are some things that they need to do, some things they must not do.

01:33:18.240 But to answer your question, I'm very pro-marriage.

01:33:21.820 I think it's wonderful.

01:33:23.720 There's kind of two groups of people that come to my mind when I think about it within our church that come through the doors,

01:33:33.960 especially where we talk a lot about patriarchy and submission and have a very high view of the

01:33:40.060 family, you'll have families that'll come through. And if they're just newly introduced to some of

01:33:47.500 these concepts, they'll come in and you'll notice that the wife is usually very skittish

01:33:54.640 and she has an expectation quite clearly of what she's going to encounter.

01:33:59.420 um right just even even the word patriarchy just that alone um she has an idea in her mind of what

01:34:06.320 she's going to encounter and one of my favorite things is when those families come in and i cannot

01:34:11.000 tell you how many i've had that i've invited over to the house and we've you know had dinner together

01:34:16.180 and they one of the very first things they say every single time is i had a totally different

01:34:23.140 picture of what this was going to look like i was so worried that right that this would that you

01:34:29.080 would be this kind of man, that you would run your household in this kind of way. And it's a

01:34:34.380 delight to actually be able to calm those fears and be like, no, it's not going to look like this

01:34:41.660 because where I got all of these things from the Bible, submission and patriarchy, I also got the

01:34:48.140 good biblical versions of what a man is supposed to look like. And I'm bound to those. So I can't

01:34:55.360 deal with my wife harshly. I can't be a tyrant in my home. Are you kidding me? The scriptures are

01:35:00.700 clear on those things. So of course it doesn't look like this. Of course it doesn't look like

01:35:05.580 this. But then... That's a great testimony. What's that? I said that's a great testimony. Good. I'm

01:35:11.880 sorry. Go ahead. Oh, no. It really is. I can't tell you how many of those we've had. But the

01:35:17.400 other side is guys who come in and they do think, Oh, I like this. I like this. I get to, I get to

01:35:26.840 have all the say in my house and they come in and it's amazing how quick some of the other guys look

01:35:32.080 at them. Like you need to, you need to settle down. You bet. Are you loving your wife? And our

01:35:37.880 guys will be like, they'll be hot on them. I mean, it's absolutely zero tolerance for that kind of

01:35:43.560 behavior around here because again it's that is not biblical that's not biblical masculinity

01:35:48.820 period you are called to love your wife you're called to deal with her in an understanding way

01:35:54.280 and so i i think the more communities we have that just embrace these things in the full picture not

01:36:01.720 just this little part i like here and this little part i like here but just the full thing and 0.99

01:36:06.400 actually live it out, the more we're able to shut up these stupid lies about patriarchy and 0.98

01:36:14.120 submission when we're actually living it out. It's not just theory. We're actually doing it. 1.00

01:36:19.600 Exactly. Yeah. One of the examples that I use with people often is that, okay, God has called

01:36:27.080 me to lead in my home. So there are times where I lead and I talk to my wife and I say, I believe

01:36:34.400 this is the way God wants us to go. And my wife might say, well, have you thought about this way?

01:36:41.960 I think this might be better. And I consider it and I think about it. And then I say, you know

01:36:48.580 what? I think you're right. Let's go the way you are suggesting that we go. Now that is still me

01:36:55.700 leading in my home, but it's me being humble enough to recognize, you know, I don't always

01:37:00.900 get it right. But now let's change the picture a little bit. Now I say, I think we need to go this

01:37:08.480 way to my wife. And she says, well, have you thought about going this way? And I say, you know

01:37:14.840 what? I have thought about that, but I believe this is the direction that God wants us to go.

01:37:20.940 And now she says, okay, I'll follow you. No fighting, no kicking, no screaming, no arguing,

01:37:26.940 No, you hate men. It's like, nope, she just humbly follows me. You see how mutual humility

01:37:32.900 is so important. There's times where the man is in the wrong. He follows his wife and her

01:37:37.860 suggestion. He's still leading, but he's listening to her. But there's other times where the man says,

01:37:44.220 you know what, this is the direction that we should go. And the wife follows him. And she 0.79

01:37:48.820 doesn't argue with him and fight with him. She doesn't say, you know, you don't know what you're

01:37:52.420 talking about, she follows, she submits. Again, we get back to the S word. So it takes humility

01:37:59.100 for men to recognize when they're wrong, but it takes humility for women to recognize,

01:38:03.740 I've got to follow my head, even if he is wrong. And we don't lead our wives into sin. If I'm

01:38:15.200 urging my wife to sin, then she is obligated before God to say, no, this is against what God

01:38:21.220 says, I can't do this. Now she should resist. But those are very, very rare situations. And yet

01:38:28.820 sometimes that's what happens, Kevin. We only talk about the exceptions. When you present what you

01:38:34.660 and I just talked about, a lot of times it comes out and it says, well, yeah, what about this

01:38:39.100 situation? What about that? Okay. Yes, of course. If a man is sinning terribly against his wife,

01:38:44.660 the wife can still respectfully say, I can't do that. Not angrily, not being nasty, not reviling

01:38:53.480 him, but she can still respectfully decline. That's not hard to do. It should not be hard to

01:39:01.440 do. It should be very natural if you're a believer. And yet a lot of these women that

01:39:10.200 are the reviling wives i'm convinced kevin they're not born again and that's why they can't do it 0.99

01:39:15.900 they just fight and resist they may be religious they may go to church every week

01:39:21.860 but they're not born again and this is why they can't forgive they can't submit they can't let

01:39:29.500 go of control they can't stop being harsh they're not born again even pastors yeah even it makes

01:39:39.340 It makes sense if Titus 2 says that you're blaspheming the Word of God and you just continue to walk in that.

01:39:46.180 How long do you expect to walk in that and have any fruit at all in your life?

01:39:54.480 Right.

01:39:56.080 And the average husband in these kinds of marriages is very patient, very long-suffering.

01:40:01.940 I mean, he tolerates a lot of things.

01:40:05.980 And yet the wife says, you know what?

01:40:08.080 I feel this way.

01:40:09.080 I feel that way.

01:40:10.560 Something we didn't talk about was my feelings are sovereigns.

01:40:13.760 Basically what the woman says, whatever I feel is right and is true.

01:40:17.460 It's like, no, sometimes your feelings are leading you in the wrong direction and you're

01:40:21.620 not, you're not hearing what's really going on.

01:40:24.860 You're not seeing what kind of a man you're really married to.

01:40:28.060 He's not a perfect man, but he is a good man.

01:40:32.080 Because again, we get back to first Peter three, don't we?

01:40:34.580 That even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see a respectful and pure conduct. 0.51

01:40:47.960 This is the wife that is married to a man who doesn't always obey the word of God. 0.99

01:40:54.720 It doesn't say, well, if he's not obeying God's word, then you just rebel against him and tell him he's a fool. 0.96

01:40:59.940 It says, no, no, you still, you win him over even without a word. 0.94

01:41:04.580 You don't argue with him.

01:41:05.680 You don't fight with him.

01:41:07.000 You win him over by your example, by your pure and respectful conduct. 0.99

01:41:13.200 See, respect has to be unconditional for the wife. 0.79

01:41:18.720 Respect, not he has to earn my respect. 0.66

01:41:21.700 Another false thing that we've learned in our society.

01:41:24.640 He has to earn my respect.

01:41:26.560 No, he does not.

01:41:27.280 he should strive to become a respectful man, but you are obligated to follow him and be respectful

01:41:37.180 to him, even when he's not acting according to God. And ladies, the example that Peter chose

01:41:47.220 was Sarah with Abraham. You go, man, if ever there was a difficult situation, it was that one. No

01:41:53.920 feminist in the world would ever support what Sarah did. They would say, what an idiot. How 1.00

01:42:01.780 could Sarah do that with a man that he's leading her to who knows where? How long are we going to

01:42:08.540 take? When is this journey going to end? He's, you know, giving me to these other kings, and

01:42:15.280 I don't have to submit to this man. And yet this is the one woman out of all the women in the Old 0.99

01:42:21.040 Testament that Peter chose to put out as an example. She didn't put her hope in that. She

01:42:26.240 did not put her hope in Abraham. It says clearly she put her hope in God, right? That's what she

01:42:33.220 said. This is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their 1.00

01:42:39.500 own husbands, 1 Peter 3, 5. And as Sarah obeyed Abraham, oh, obeyed? That's not in marriage vows

01:42:48.240 anymore, is it? Obeyed? You know, well, there's where it came from, came from 1 Peter 3, 6.

01:42:53.540 Our Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord. And I look at that, she was verbally respectful to him

01:43:00.880 too. My wife has never called me Lord, and I'm not asking her to, but she respects me with her words,

01:43:08.080 with the way that she speaks to me. And then he says, and you are her children if you do good,

01:43:13.740 and do not fear anything that is frightening. It is frightening for a wife to be in that position.

01:43:22.320 You know, I've got to trust this man, this very imperfect man. I've got to trust him.

01:43:26.960 How do I do this? Well, you go back to hoping in God. God helped my husband to become the leader

01:43:34.460 that you want him to be. Not the leader I want him to be, but the leader that you want him to be.

01:43:39.900 And this, this works itself out. So that man grows as a leader and that wife grows in her submission to him. Again, it's not a dirty word. It's a good, it's a good biblical word. You and I have to submit to somebody, don't we? Of course we do. 0.65

01:43:58.220 Absolutely. 1.00

01:43:59.100 So why would our wives think it's wrong to submit? 1.00

01:44:03.820 Yeah. 1.00

01:44:04.580 And I don't think ladies appreciate just what a superpower it is to be able to have a truly gentle and quiet spirit, even when they disagree with their husband.

01:44:14.860 And maybe he truly is not obeying the word and he's sending them in not the best direction.

01:44:20.700 what an amazing to be able to do that over and over again to quiet their own hearts and to trust

01:44:27.620 in the lord and and and have just wonderful pure conduct what that does in a home that puts so much

01:44:34.320 pressure and responsibility on that man that's the thing that wins him that's the thing that wins him

01:44:41.300 and that's how you get to be heard more and more and how your counsel is sought after because you're

01:44:48.080 You're proving yourself to be a wise woman who understands the scriptures.

01:44:54.380 You want to be heard more?

01:44:56.620 Obey the scriptures.

01:44:58.580 Right, right.

01:45:00.060 You know, you and I have talked about this passage before too, Kevin, Psalm 131.

01:45:04.180 It's only three verses long, right?

01:45:06.740 But very instructive for men and for women.

01:45:11.520 Oh, yeah.

01:45:12.160 Oh, Lord, my heart is not lifted up.

01:45:14.040 My eyes are not raised too high.

01:45:15.580 I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me.

01:45:20.180 See, sometimes in our pride, we think I can fix everything.

01:45:23.220 I can fix this wife.

01:45:24.380 I can fix this husband. 0.95

01:45:25.580 I can make this happen.

01:45:26.720 I can make that happen.

01:45:27.760 It's like, that's kind of arrogance.

01:45:30.280 And when we go down that direction, down that rabbit hole, we get all this turmoil and all

01:45:37.420 this anxiety and all this fear, this ruling in our hearts.

01:45:41.960 So there's where David goes to the next verse, verse two.

01:45:44.620 but I have calmed and quieted my soul. Like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child

01:45:52.820 is my soul within me. We can calm and quiet our souls. We don't have to have everything the way

01:45:58.820 we want it to be, whether it's the man or the woman. And so learn how to calm and quiet your

01:46:06.500 soul. You can do that. David did that. You and I can do that. And then the last verse, verse 3,

01:46:12.900 that exhortation to the rest of the people, O Israel, hope in the Lord from this time forth

01:46:18.500 and forevermore. So David is saying, this is not just for me, David, this is for you, people of

01:46:24.940 God. You can do this, men and women, calm and quiet your soul. There's too much noise in our

01:46:33.500 souls, not just noise in our society, but noise in our souls where we don't have any rest, we don't

01:46:39.540 have any peace. We don't have any contentment. That peace and contentment is only found in Jesus

01:46:45.860 Christ. It's only found in him. It's not found in just getting everything your way. It never will

01:46:52.180 be. Never promised to us. Amen. I think that's actually a great and hopeful note to close the

01:47:00.960 show on. So I want to thank you so much, Pastor Edgington, for your wisdom and your insight. I

01:47:08.480 I really appreciate your courage, too, to speak into an area that many dare not tread.

01:47:15.100 So thank you so much.

01:47:16.300 And it's been a wonderful conversation, and I really appreciate you and your time.

01:47:21.500 Amen.

01:47:22.020 Thank you, brother.

01:47:22.940 It's been great being with you again.

01:47:24.640 It's great being with you.

01:47:25.640 Now, if people, real quick as we close, want to get in contact with you or purchase some of your books, where's the best place to do that?

01:47:33.880 Well, you can go on my website, CompassionateCounselors.com.

01:47:38.480 And I also do this crazy thing, and I give out my phone number and my email address on podcasts, and people go, really?

01:47:44.920 People call me, they say, and I answer the phone, and I say, hello, this is David.

01:47:48.540 And they say, it really is you.

01:47:50.060 You really did give out your phone number.

01:47:51.640 And I say, well, yeah, I want to help you.

01:47:53.300 I'm not trying to hide from you, and I don't want to make it difficult.

01:47:56.500 So here's my phone number, 602-384-4417.

01:48:02.640 That's a cell number, so you can text me at that number if you'd like.

01:48:05.460 And you can email me as well, counseltheword at p-m-dot-m-e, so counsel, c-o-u-n-s-e-l, the word, w-o-r-d, at p-m, paulmichael, dot m-e, Michael Edward.

01:48:22.420 And I'd be glad to help you.

01:48:24.200 I'd be glad to talk with you and just minister God's word to you, give you a hope that is based on the Lord, not based on me.

01:48:34.300 I'm just the vessel.

01:48:36.140 He is the grace.

01:48:38.260 I'm just the one that brings that grace to you.

01:48:42.300 Thank you.

01:48:43.080 That's great.

01:48:43.800 I really appreciate that.

01:48:45.240 I want to remind the listeners to keep their eyes peeled for the announcement of the release date of this new book coming out.

01:48:52.360 So keep your eyes peeled on some of the new Christendom Press websites and social media accounts,

01:48:59.020 and we'll be announcing the date of that book here very soon.

01:49:05.120 But with that, I'd like to move the conversation over to Patreon for a brief conversation, if you still have the time. 0.91

01:49:10.520 I'd like to work through some of the particular situations when it comes to how to think through and counsel men in dealing with these reviling women. 0.98

01:49:19.680 So please sign up for Patreon to hear that conversation. 1.00

01:49:23.840 With that, thank you so much, Pastor Edgington.

01:49:26.780 Thank you, brother. God bless you.

01:49:28.500 stay safe mask up get the vax don't take unnecessary risks be careful we've been coddled

01:49:41.100 smothered in warnings trained to fear and avoid risk we've been taught to play it safe and be on

01:49:47.480 our guard and not just against a scraped knee or a failed endeavor no we've been taught to censor

01:49:53.300 our speech, our words, even our thoughts. Don't think those dangerous thoughts. Don't notice.

01:49:59.400 Don't speak out. If you do, we're coming for you. Who's coming for you? It almost doesn't

01:50:05.440 even matter. Whether it's the HR lady at your company of either sex, weaponized church courts, 1.00

01:50:11.480 the social media censors, or even those you once considered allies. Watch out. Take care. Play it

01:50:17.940 safe. But was it always this way? Have we always lived under this kind of stifling,

01:50:23.580 wet-blanketing panopticon? Is this the spirit of our Christian forefathers, of the men who 1.00

01:50:29.320 founded our nation in blood and in faith, willing to face down all the might of Britannia and her

01:50:34.960 redcoats? There was a time when Americans didn't shrink from risk, when they would rather die than 1.00

01:50:40.720 bend. Our Christian forefathers knew what it was to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard. 0.86

01:50:51.220 They knew what it was to set sail for the unknown. They defied tyrants. They built,

01:50:56.700 explored, and dared great things. Who settled this land? Who built one of the greatest nations ever

01:51:03.280 to be? Who settled the West and covered the continent from sea to sea with the Christian 1.00

01:51:07.680 people. Who searched out glories, crisscrossed the plains with railroads, and fought off usurpers

01:51:13.700 and invaders on all sides. Risk wasn't a bug, it was a feature. Without it, our fathers knew there

01:51:20.140 was no greatness. And now, we're supposed to trade boldness for bureaucracy? We're supposed to tremble

01:51:26.520 at the unknown instead of mastering it? We're supposed to bow and scrape, not even before

01:51:31.740 bullets but before hr ladies we don't think so it's time to remember who we are this year join

01:51:40.040 us here at new christendom press for our annual conference safety third recovering the american

01:51:44.940 will to greatness four days to forge new friendships build coalition and work to

01:51:50.320 recover what was lost it's time to reclaim the spirit that built this nation to break free from

01:51:56.140 fear, to risk, to build, to lead. The future belongs to the bold.

01:52:26.140 The King's Hall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content.

The King's Hall - March 28, 2025

White Knights and Reviling Wives： An Interview with David Edgington

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