The King's Hall - Classical Christian Education’s Egalitarianism Problem

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, Brian here with a big announcement from New Christendom Press.

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00:00:38.040 This episode of the King's Hall is brought to you by Backwards Planning Financial, Max D Trailers, Keep Wise Partners, Muzzleloaders.com, Truth Family Bible Church, Farmer Bills Provisions, Founders Ministries, Right Response Ministries, and our supporters at Patreon.com.

00:00:56.600 We'll be right back.

00:01:26.600 It wasn't long ago that the idea of homeschooling your children was more or less a fringe idea.

00:01:34.640 Just think of the stereotypes of homeschooled children typically bandied about in popular culture.

00:01:40.160 That homeschoolers are the socially awkward offspring of religious fanatics, unable to talk to girls, or navigate the most basic of social settings.

00:01:50.140 They probably only watch productions from Focus on the Family and almost definitely ritually burn Harry Potter books each October, but only in celebration of Reformation Day, of course, not Halloween.

00:02:03.580 But in recent years, our culture has undergone a seismic shift in attitude and perception surrounding public education, homeschooling, and even private schooling.

00:02:15.180 A growing number of families are choosing to opt out of the public school system,

00:02:20.120 seeking alternative educational pathways ranging from homeschooling to cottage schooling

00:02:25.560 to co-ops and classical Christian private schooling and beyond.

00:02:30.500 Take just homeschooling, for example, which has seen a remarkable surge of late.

00:02:36.020 As of the 2024 school year, approximately 3.7 million students in the United States

00:02:42.420 are being homeschooled, accounting for about 6.73% of all school-aged children.

00:02:48.700 This represents a significant increase from just the 2018 to 2019 school year,

00:02:54.460 when just 3.7% of students received academic instruction at home.

00:02:58.980 In the year 2000, only 2.2% of school-aged children were homeschooled.

00:03:02.940 The trend is marked, isn't it?

00:03:04.580 Running parallel to this trend is the growth of classical Christian schools in America.

00:03:08.620 These institutions offer a more traditional liberal arts education grounded in Christian values.

00:03:14.840 The number of such schools has expanded markedly as well, with over 1,500 now operating across the country.

00:03:22.500 Notably, more than 250 of these have opened since 2020, reflecting a robust demand for this new, or should we say old, educational model.

00:03:31.840 Several factors contribute to this educational migration.

00:03:35.480 Noting the continued failure of public school to reliably produce mature and intelligent, let alone literate, adults,

00:03:41.420 parents have increasingly sought out environments that provide rigorous academics, moral and character development,

00:03:48.100 and a curriculum that reflects their religious and ethical views.

00:03:51.620 Even quite average parents have grown wearied by the constant indoctrination of their children with leftist dogmas in the average government school.

00:04:00.740 These parents have gone out in search of alternatives en masse.

00:04:04.680 Whether it is the flexibility and warmth of homeschooling or the structured rigor, order, and camaraderie on offer with classical Christian schools,

00:04:12.620 these alternatives have clearly grown in their appeal.

00:04:15.900 Again, not just to the fringe extremes of society, but to the average American.

00:04:21.160 It's no secret that we here in Ogden have labored along these exact lines,

00:04:26.480 founding St. Brendan's Classical Christian Academy, a full primary and secondary school attached to our local church.

00:04:33.280 We're huge believers in the importance and critical importance of Christian education,

00:04:37.600 even refusing membership to families who refuse to give their children a Christian education in some cases.

00:04:44.460 This is something we see as a command from God, not a mere matter of preference.

00:04:49.340 No, you don't have to send your kids to our school, but you do have to give them a Christian education,

00:04:55.080 lest you disobey God's instruction to fathers in passages like Ephesians 6-4.

00:05:00.720 Much of the momentum behind the rise of homeschooling in general, and classical Christian education

00:05:06.940 in particular, can be traced to a growing dissatisfaction with modern educational theory,

00:05:14.100 pedagogy, practice, curricula, and even guiding presuppositions. Parents are increasingly

00:05:21.400 questioning the alleged improvements to education that came along with the 19th, 20th, and 21st

00:05:28.660 centuries. They are more and more looking back over their shoulders into the much earlier history

00:05:35.040 of education and seeking the wisdom of past epochs and ages. Proponents of classical Christian

00:05:41.820 education can often be found lamenting the misguided goals of the modern education system,

00:05:47.000 rejecting even the outcomes they are aiming to produce. For example, on February 17, 2025,

00:05:53.280 Jeremy Wayne Tate, CEO of Classical Learning Initiatives, wrote the following critique of

00:05:58.180 even conservatives when it comes to the goals of education. Quote, most conservatives still don't

00:06:03.580 get it. If you walk into almost any school and ask the students, what are we doing here? What is

00:06:09.440 the point of school? The students will tell you the point of school is to get a better job. This

00:06:15.860 is an impoverished vision for education. For millennia, the telos or goal of education never

00:06:22.860 changed. The goal was always moral formation or the cultivation of virtue. This isn't just one

00:06:28.580 of many problems, it is the problem behind the civilizational decay we have been witnessing

00:06:33.360 across the West. You can fix every other problem, but if education fundamentally has the wrong goal,

00:06:39.620 the nation will die. C.S. Lewis argues that when education is beaten by training, civilization

00:06:45.120 dies. He was referring to classical education, the only kind of education that existed until

00:06:51.060 radical progressives hijacked education in the 20th century.

00:06:55.300 Conservatives need to wake up, end quote.

00:06:58.420 Tate makes some important and interesting points,

00:07:00.840 the kind of points you will hear from nearly any advocate

00:07:03.400 of a return to classical Christian education.

00:07:06.560 Education cannot be reduced to mere utility, can it?

00:07:11.280 We can't think of education as simply the thing

00:07:14.660 which allows us to do another thing that earns us income.

00:07:18.180 Education must transcend the mere practical.

00:07:21.060 It must aspire to the formation of a whole soul, to the cultivation of a whole person who is able to love God with his whole body, mind, soul, and strength, lest we reduce the human person to a mere economic animal or a piece of industrial machinery.

00:07:38.440 And yet here we run into some challenges.

00:07:41.780 As with many works of resourcement and recovery of things lost from times past,

00:07:46.380 we often run into complexities that don't sit nearly as neatly as we'd like

00:07:51.040 into the real world, our actual time, and even our own presuppositions and instincts.

00:07:57.300 We are, all of us, prone to oversimplification, special pleading, and magical thinking.

00:08:02.620 For example, Dr. Stephen Wolfe brought a fascinating layer to the discussion

00:08:07.000 in a reply to Tate's post on X, writing,

00:08:10.460 quote,

00:08:10.980 There's an egalitarian impulse in classical education advocates

00:08:14.580 who can't see that get a job must be the end of universal education.

00:08:19.580 Education for moral formation is traditionally a privilege for the few,

00:08:24.140 not a right to the many.

00:08:25.600 We can make universal education more moral,

00:08:28.120 but the end for most people is getting a job.

00:08:30.340 That's the real world.

00:08:31.740 Most people are average,

00:08:32.960 and they don't need to read Plato or be able to recite Antigone in Greek, end quote. 0.93

00:08:38.180 See, one of the hidden reefs under the surface of the history of classical and Christian education 0.86

00:08:42.980 is the, at least to us moderns, offensive reality that for most of history, 0.71

00:08:48.940 the vast majority of the populace simply wasn't educated in the way we think about education today.

00:08:54.860 Education, beyond the most basic rudiments, was typically reserved for the clergy and the nobility,

00:09:01.000 for priests, pastors, bishops, statesmen, lords, kings, and courtiers.

00:09:06.260 Most people in most places and in most times

00:09:09.160 were educated in the duties directly needful to their household, trade, and community.

00:09:15.180 Boys grew up and learned the trade or business of their fathers

00:09:18.940 or other men in the community or nearby community.

00:09:22.960 Girls grew up and learned to help in the management of their household, 0.95

00:09:26.560 in child-rearing, and many aspects of the family trade or business as well.

00:09:32.080 Literacy rates in the West were often below 10%,

00:09:35.140 with some estimates sitting at 5% or lower in many regions until the 1500s.

00:09:40.740 Urban centers often boasted higher rates, as much as 20-40%,

00:09:45.200 and the invention of the printing press in the 1400s and its subsequent adoption certainly helped as well.

00:09:50.000 But it nonetheless remains true that prior to the 1600s,

00:09:54.320 education looked very different for the average commoner than it does today.

00:09:59.620 Right around the middle of the 17th century, though,

00:10:02.060 we begin to feel the first waves of oncoming change rumbling in the cultural undercurrent.

00:10:08.220 One influential voice leading the change, a voice tragically few are aware of today,

00:10:14.220 is that of John Amos Comenius.

00:10:16.900 You could argue that as Francis Bacon was to science and René Descartes was to philosophy,

00:10:21.500 so Comenius was to education in terms of influence,

00:10:25.180 though he's far less known than either of those other men today.

00:10:28.400 In fact, Comenius' greatest work, Didacta Magna, the great didactic,

00:10:33.360 is modeled on the systematic approach of both Bacon and Descartes

00:10:36.800 as it pertains to his own field of education.

00:10:39.560 Born in 1592 in Moravia, part of the modern-day Czech Republic,

00:10:44.020 Comenius was the youngest child of Protestant parents

00:10:46.640 who belonged to the unity of the Brethren,

00:10:49.060 a movement which served as direct predecessor to what you may have heard of, the Moravian Church.

00:10:55.660 Orphaned at a young age, he lived with relatives and faced financial hardships

00:11:00.100 that delayed his formal education until his late teens.

00:11:03.920 Despite these struggles, Kamenius showed great intellectual promise.

00:11:08.460 He studied at the Latin School of Pre-Rav and later attended the Herborn Academy and the University of Heidelberg.

00:11:15.360 At Herborn, he was influenced by the emerging Pan-Sophic movement, which sought to organize all human learning into a cohesive whole.

00:11:24.900 This vision would later inform his educational theories.

00:11:29.280 Comenius' life was profoundly shaped by the Thirty Years' War of 1618-1648, a devastating conflict between Roman Catholic and Protestant factions in Europe.

00:11:40.740 As a Protestant minister and educator, he found himself a target of religious persecution.

00:11:45.600 So in 1621, he lost his home, personal library, and many of his early writings when Roman Catholic forces overran his town.

00:11:54.820 Forced into exile, he eventually settled in Leszno, Poland, where he led a Protestant school and began formulating his ideas on education.

00:12:03.800 During his exile, Comenius wrote Didactica Magna, a comprehensive treatise on education

00:12:09.240 that argued for systematic, universal learning.

00:12:13.000 In this work, he made a revolutionary claim.

00:12:15.560 Quote,

00:12:15.740 Not the children of the rich or of the powerful only, but of all alike, boys and girls, both

00:12:21.300 noble and ignoble, rich and poor, in all cities and towns, villages and hamlets, should be

00:12:26.360 sent to school.

00:12:27.440 End quote.

00:12:28.440 This statement was radical for its time.

00:12:30.440 As previously noted in the 17th century, formal education was largely reserved for the nobility and clergy, while commoners received little to no schooling at all.

00:12:40.060 Comenius rejected this status quo, insisting that education should be accessible to all, regardless of social class or even sex.

00:12:48.540 His reputation as an educational reformer spread across Europe.

00:12:52.900 He was invited to advise whole governments in Sweden, England, the Netherlands, and Hungary on school reform.

00:13:01.340 His innovative teaching methods influenced the design of national education systems in these countries and more.

00:13:08.100 He wrote what is possibly still his most well-known work, Orbis Pictus,

00:13:12.280 a children's textbook that served as the first widely used children's textbook with pictures,

00:13:17.060 which quickly spread across the whole continent and endured for centuries in dozens of countries.

00:13:23.940 At one point, he was even offered the presidency of the newly founded Harvard University in the

00:13:30.000 American colonies, though he ended up declining this position. Instead, he continued his work

00:13:36.140 in Europe, writing and publishing extensively on education and theology. His later years were

00:13:42.080 marked by further hardship. In 1656, during a war between Poland and Sweden, Roman Catholic forces

00:13:48.900 burned his home in Lesno, destroying many of his unpublished manuscripts. He eventually relocated

00:13:54.620 to Amsterdam, where he spent his final years compiling and publishing his educational theories.

00:14:00.540 Though he died in 1670, Comenius' influence endured. His ideas laid the groundwork for

00:14:06.600 modern education, and his advocacy for universal schooling foreshadowed the eventual development

00:14:12.480 of public education systems worldwide. For example, the system he outlined in Didactica Magna

00:14:19.300 is the exact analog of our current system of education in the U.S. with our kindergarten,

00:14:25.200 elementary school, secondary school, college, and university. Part of the move towards universal

00:14:31.540 education almost certainly arose from the Protestant focus on the priesthood of all

00:14:36.820 believers, the notion that all believers are priests unto God. You can see how an emphasis

00:14:43.040 on this doctrine would naturally lead to the conclusion that as priests, all saints must be

00:14:49.560 able to read and handle the scriptures, a task requiring at minimum universal or near universal

00:14:56.340 literacy. This is evident, historically speaking, in early American colonial efforts at universal

00:15:03.300 education, which were heavily influenced by religious and moral concerns, particularly in

00:15:09.960 Puritan New England. One of the earliest and most significant educational laws was the Massachusetts

00:15:15.920 Bay Colony's 1647 Old Deluder Satan Act, which aimed to ensure literacy so children could read

00:15:22.460 the Bible and resist the influence of Satan. The law required towns with 50 or more households to

00:15:27.500 hire a teacher to instruct children in reading and writing, while towns with 100 or more households

00:15:32.620 were mandated to establish a grammar school to prepare students for higher education,

00:15:37.380 such as Harvard College. This act laid the foundation for the tradition of publicly

00:15:43.260 funded education in America and demonstrated the colonists' belief that widespread literacy

00:15:48.840 was essential, not just for religious, but also for civic life. But it wasn't just educational

00:15:55.300 theorists and Protestant doctrinal development which drove the transformation of education

00:16:00.800 from the few to the many. Technology also played a massive role. As it did for many other aspects

00:16:07.980 of human life and societal ordering, the second and third order effects of the first and second

00:16:13.540 industrial revolutions transformed the world of education. The first industrial revolution ran

00:16:19.660 from 1760 to 1840, bringing mechanization, steam power, and a proliferation of factories to the

00:16:25.540 West, but especially Britain. The second, from 1870 to 1914, brought advancements in steel,

00:16:32.120 electricity, and mass production across Western Europe and the U.S. With the rise of factory jobs

00:16:37.760 and industrialization, along with a huge boom in printing and publishing of cheaper books,

00:16:42.260 newspapers and pamphlets, literacy rose as well. By 1850, Britain boasted nearly 70%

00:16:48.980 male literacy and 50% female literacy. The U.S. exceeded those numbers, with some regions hitting

00:16:54.700 80% literacy. By 1880, school attendance became mandatory in Britain, with the U.S. following suit

00:17:01.960 in most states throughout the 1800s, leading to near-universal literacy by the turn of the 20th

00:17:08.800 century in the West. Society was being transformed, but the transformation would take even deeper

00:17:15.460 root in the early to mid-20th century. The Great Depression of 1929 to 1939 played a pivotal role

00:17:22.420 in this transformation, a role of which many today are totally ignorant. Most of us today

00:17:27.240 assume that the idea of educating most of our children through age 18, and often longer,

00:17:33.060 extending well into the mid-20s for many, is fairly ordinary.

00:17:37.360 This couldn't be further from the case.

00:17:39.920 Though most states had compulsory education laws by the early 20th century,

00:17:44.520 it was during the 1930s that compulsory education was extended through secondary school,

00:17:50.860 effectively keeping students in school through high school.

00:17:54.240 Think about this.

00:17:55.180 Prior to this occurring, something like 70% of U.S. students

00:17:58.560 didn't continue their formal education into high school,

00:18:01.360 but entered the workforce or took up work in the home.

00:18:05.100 But during the Great Depression,

00:18:06.940 in an attempt to keep young men in particular out of the workforce

00:18:10.240 and thereby prevent them from competing for scarce jobs

00:18:13.940 with older men who were seen as being in greater need of the available work,

00:18:19.040 states began to require schooling all the way through high school.

00:18:23.240 The result?

00:18:24.720 By 1940, more than 75% of teenagers were in high school.

00:18:28.900 Today, nearly 90% of teens will graduate high school,

00:18:31.880 and even higher if you control for certain outlier groups like Native Americans. 1.00

00:18:36.660 What's the point of all this? 0.99

00:18:38.400 Many of these changes are, of course, positives.

00:18:41.240 Universal literacy allows men and women of all stations

00:18:44.320 to drink at the deep wells of scripture, history, philosophy, and beyond.

00:18:49.360 The human soul grows to the size of the beauties it beholds.

00:18:53.220 We were made to grow into greater and greater glory

00:18:56.260 by the contemplation and beholding of our God.

00:18:59.420 We were made to grow in our worship,

00:19:01.340 in our awe,

00:19:02.240 as we contemplate the wonders

00:19:03.980 that our God has woven into his world.

00:19:07.020 As Solomon teaches us in Proverbs 4, 7 to 9,

00:19:10.120 the beginning of wisdom is this,

00:19:11.940 get wisdom and whatever you get, get insight.

00:19:14.940 Pies her highly and she will exalt you.

00:19:17.140 She will honor you if you embrace her. 0.62

00:19:19.120 She will place on your head a graceful garland.

00:19:21.320 She will bestow on you a beautiful crown.

00:19:24.440 Yes and amen.

00:19:26.260 But we must acknowledge something that we moderns are often quite reticent to make eye contact with.

00:19:33.320 In the transformations of the last three centuries, we've moved many ancient landmarks set down by our fathers.

00:19:40.120 And if we're honest, the results haven't always been glowing.

00:19:45.060 As another proverb warns, do not move an ancient landmark that your fathers have set.

00:19:50.100 It is essential for the wise to understand why a landmark was laid down prior to casually casting it away.

00:19:58.160 We should, therefore, embark on the difficult and sometimes painful journey of self-reflection on these very issues.

00:20:06.340 Maybe it would look like working through thoughts and questions like these.

00:20:11.360 Throughout much of history, formal education was primarily reserved for the clergy and the nobility.

00:20:16.520 The reasoning behind this was not arbitrary, but rooted in a deep understanding of social order, vocation, and the hierarchical structure of God's creation.

00:20:26.360 Education was not seen as a universal right, but as a tool for shaping leaders, theologians, and statesmen, those who would guide both the church and society.

00:20:35.480 The modern world, however, has largely abandoned this model in favor of universal education,

00:20:40.740 a system that assumes all people should spend the first 18 plus years of life in formal schooling,

00:20:46.600 often with little regard for their natural aptitudes or future roles in society.

00:20:53.360 Was this unqualifiedly wise?

00:20:56.480 Did we adequately account for the hierarchical nature of God's world when we moved these landmarks?

00:21:01.980 Have we misunderstood the hierarchical nature of God's very gifting in the world?

00:21:06.360 Did we overestimate the usefulness of devoting so many years to academic study

00:21:11.360 for nearly everyone in society?

00:21:14.100 Perhaps instead of assuming that all must be trained in the same intellectual disciplines,

00:21:18.260 we should ask whether the average man truly benefits from learning Latin

00:21:22.320 all the way into early adulthood,

00:21:24.180 or whether he would be better served by learning his father's trade.

00:21:28.600 Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set.

00:21:32.500 The landmarks of society, its roles, structures, and traditions,

00:21:36.480 ought not to be thoughtlessly discarded, but preserved and understood.

00:21:40.460 The shift toward universal education, however, has often ignored this wisdom,

00:21:45.180 assuming that one broad educational system can fit all.

00:21:49.620 One of the driving notions of our current understanding of universal education

00:21:53.800 is that anyone may become anything.

00:21:56.900 You can do anything you set your mind to, we tell ourselves.

00:22:01.120 But in the world God actually made, not all men are called to the same station,

00:22:05.840 same vocation, and the same heights.

00:22:08.500 God distributes his gifts variably and unequally, whether we like it or not.

00:22:13.220 Some are meant to lead, some to teach, and some to labor with their hands.

00:22:17.360 Some are given ten, some five, still others one talent.

00:22:21.540 Now, every man is called to lead, at the very least to lead himself,

00:22:25.340 to rule his own spirit, to order his own thoughts, loves, and desires into the obedience of faith.

00:22:31.700 But not every man is called to be a leader of men, an intellectual, a pastor, a statesman,

00:22:36.920 a judge. To make it seem as if this is the case may seem to us to be kind, but it turns out rather

00:22:43.160 to be an unkindness. Speaking of sacred cows, let's add another wrinkle to the conversation.

00:22:48.760 Sexed piety and vocation. We're Christians, and one thing that means is that we don't believe men

00:22:54.040 and women are infinitely interchangeable humanity units. Though all of the saints share in many

00:22:59.880 vocations, there are critical distinctions between the vocation of the man and the vocation of the

00:23:04.900 woman. In the home, the church, and society, the man is called to lead, rule, and protect. In the

00:23:11.900 same, the woman is called to submit, to help, and to nurture. I just said that without a lot of

00:23:18.200 nuance, but let me put it another way that I think will help you grab onto the truth I'm trying to

00:23:23.700 communicate. Another way of putting this would be to say that we are not preparing our daughters

00:23:29.320 for the same thing as our sons, that we are likewise not preparing our sons for the same

00:23:35.460 thing as our daughters. Now, yes, both are headed for glory in Christ. Both are set to receive the

00:23:42.300 inheritance of Christ. There is certainly a broad foundation of shared and equally applicable

00:23:47.980 subjects of study and knowledge that we must deliver to both a shared inheritance. We ought

00:23:53.460 to diligently bequeath to both our sons and our daughters. But if we would make men and women of 0.90

00:23:59.100 God, we must also distinguish. Even glorified men and glorified women will yet be men and women.

00:24:07.400 How does this show up in our modern systems of education? How does it show up even in our

00:24:13.220 classical Christian schools, in our homeschool co-ops? Are we adequately distinguishing or are

00:24:19.820 we unhelpfully muddling? Have we given each the right measures and tools to succeed in obedience

00:24:26.360 to God's calling? These are challenging questions and certainly not simple ones. How do we balance

00:24:32.500 the goods of universal education with its pitfalls? How do we maintain an instinct to give our hearty

00:24:38.940 amen to the world of unequal gifting, hierarchy, and variation spoken by God into his creation,

00:24:46.000 but yet also love and serve and care for the brethren regardless of capacity, gifting, and calling?

00:24:52.540 How do we train our boys to be men and our girls to be women,

00:24:56.200 not muddling them into a gray, homogenous lump of indistinctness and confusion?

00:25:03.040 In this episode of the King's Hall Podcast, we'll work through some of these questions and more,

00:25:08.280 questions that we ourselves have been asking about the nature of education,

00:25:12.760 the glories and the challenges of classical Christian education,

00:25:17.300 and some of the ways in which we think about learning from the wisdom of the ancient landmarks

00:25:22.840 that even modern classical Christian education has sometimes neglected to examine.

00:25:28.620 We'll interrogate some of the presuppositions guiding the way we moderns think about education,

00:25:34.220 even things that we consider to be obvious and unqualified goods in our day, like universal education.

00:25:41.280 How can we make Christian men and women who are prepared to do their duties, glorify God, and love the good, true, and beautiful?

00:25:49.760 How do we account for God's very distribution of gifts and callings?

00:25:54.780 How do we address some of the pitfalls of modern education, even the modern versions of ancient educational paradigms that are on the rise in our nation today?

00:26:04.740 The King's Hall Podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world.

00:26:10.660 welcome to this episode of the king's hall podcast a couple just brilliant educational

00:26:27.740 minds here first of all dan burkholder yes yes thank you eric i would like to expound

00:26:33.840 the average yeah oh you are right public schooled my whole life yes all however 20 many years that

00:26:43.140 i was in the public school system multiple grades i'm the best did them all yeah but

00:26:48.280 sixth grade experts two times have you reigning champion have you ever repeated a grade though

00:26:54.640 that's the sign of true i really i i would like to say i have just because of that but i i haven't

00:27:01.140 repeated a grade so dan hasn't repeated a grade but brian has repeated greatness

00:27:06.020 i don't even know what that means but i accept i have many requests for you later you owe me

00:27:13.180 uh brian so vey welcome to the show it's uh it is so good to be here eric and and welcome to

00:27:18.480 yourself as well welcome welcome to me i listened to the cold open i thought it was great basically

00:27:23.920 i want to summarize uh what you said which is that everyone should be dumb except for us smart

00:27:30.240 let's not teach people to read that's what i heard martin in post-production can you put the 0.82

00:27:34.800 purple hair now on eric thank you so what you're saying is women shouldn't read so what you're

00:27:40.020 saying actually no that's not what i'm saying i'm saying something other than i'm saying the things

00:27:44.560 i said not all the things i didn't say let me just get ahead of that right now can you just

00:27:48.740 keep that clip on file i'm saying all the things i did say not all the things i didn't say

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00:28:30.240 that's beautiful one of the things i i hope you will say as we jump into this we have a new

00:28:40.200 conference video that's out absolutely we do american greatness absolutely we are great the

00:28:47.820 new christened maga conference if you will let's just let's just like all of those accounts with

00:28:54.200 like 200 followers that make their whole living just writing like questionably truthful and

00:28:59.660 obviously uncharitable threads about us after tagging six of the biggest accounts that don't

00:29:04.600 like us and simping at them let's just give them all the possible ammunition we're gonna give them

00:29:08.800 all the ammunition we can but they could also come to the conference june 12 through 14 so true

00:29:13.880 they should uh you're gonna be speaking yeah not only that though we're gonna have like uh

00:29:18.420 new christian press games where they could prove that they can't back up what they say online

00:29:23.220 there you go i thought that was just a idea i didn't know we were actually doing that it's

00:29:27.860 happening no we've had somebody challenged me to shooting and then it turned into a long-range

00:29:32.100 rifle duel and i was like we're gonna need to back up more than 500 yards if you want to stand a

00:29:37.440 chance let's just do duels in general we settle all disputes at the conference come to our conference

00:29:43.300 haters half of you will die i like how we just we just uh told everybody about our conference and

00:29:48.520 then just a whole bunch of stuff that we're actually not going to do that we're not so we

00:29:51.600 are doing brian is speaking we are doing the games yeah we're doing games yeah brian's already

00:29:56.780 started training yeah i've started training like six months ago for it are we gonna okay you know

00:30:02.000 what it's gonna be like we'll do an episode on taylor is leading leading out yep and organizing

00:30:07.300 it there's gonna be multiple competitions of strength and endurance and we're gonna crown

00:30:12.060 victors that's what we're gonna be doing because i think there's there's even a qualifier there's

00:30:15.940 gonna be an online qualifier to get in i'm hearing about no i'm literally hearing about this for the

00:30:20.720 first time it's all on twitter well i saw it on twitter but i was like that's a good joke that's

00:30:25.820 really funny but you guys are being serious right now are you just like no this is not a joke i feel

00:30:30.700 like i'm too gullible right now this is this is how all like male dominant societies should work

00:30:38.420 yeah i'm not arguing with that i'm not arguing with that what what are we doing like is this

00:30:43.600 a scottish highland games no it's gonna be like i think they got like the whole sandbag flip over

00:30:48.640 your back thing okay multiple weights of that there's a one mile run that's a good way to make

00:30:53.780 me a paraplegic yeah but mile run oh yeah mile run american mile a whole one a whole mile not

00:31:00.740 a kilometer you run the whole mile too no break the whole time pause pause okay so so we're doing

00:31:09.980 games yeah brian is speaking i hear eric con is also air con speaking yeah the the headliner what's

00:31:18.300 what's your talk by the way do you have a title picked out yet i do yeah yeah it's it's my talk

00:31:23.300 is very specific it's on leadership that that's that's it that's how far that's the hook wow you

00:31:30.660 got me actually brian the originality wrote a title for it oh i did i forgot really clever

00:31:35.900 yeah whatever um but i think whatever eric's talking about is oh recovering the american

00:31:41.620 will to lead correct yeah so it kind of ties in actually to a lot of stuff i'm doing for the 0.95

00:31:46.920 right response conference which will be uh you know how do we get rid of the gyneocracy and the 0.99

00:31:52.140 longhouse but functioning like we we have to have a certain kind of leadership in the 21st century 1.00

00:31:59.040 if we're going to recover yeah the american spirit of greatness we can't have women of either sex 0.98

00:32:04.060 no if we're in the leadership roles if we're going to recover the american world of greatness 0.82

00:32:08.600 exactly well and when you think about it like modern corporations for example i think they

00:32:13.040 said that hr positions are like in the 70th percentile staffed by women and so it could 0.99

00:32:19.320 actually well that surprises me oh yeah surprises me so you're telling me that women like to nag 0.96

00:32:24.680 other people who are trying to get who are trying to get done we're also that's why this is the

00:32:30.900 first time i'm hearing this that's why brian is named so much safety third safety third is the

00:32:35.880 name of our conference really a theme for much of what we do here in ogden we're also going to have

00:32:40.160 steven wolf he's gonna be out steven joel webin we're gonna have uh contramundum the contramundum

00:32:45.920 guys cj angle andrew isker andrew isker jay day jay day otherwise to non-insiders he's known as

00:32:52.200 jay chase davis but jay day is going to be there we're going to have some panels live haunted

00:32:56.120 cosmos there's gonna be a concert singles mixer pastor's breakfast vip hangout business mixer

00:33:01.060 there's like more stuff than we've ever done a lot of it geared at hanging out with others and

00:33:05.480 networking more than just sitting and listening to just to clarify i will be uh doing the concert

00:33:10.900 myself i will be it'll be um yeah covering alan jackson songs there will be line dancing but in

00:33:16.300 polka style interesting yeah yeah polka style wisconsin polka i could i mean i could do polka

00:33:21.260 as well yeah teach everybody how to do the polka at the same time at the same time we're gonna get

00:33:26.020 a rash of emails for the concert people trying to like get refunds on their ticket actually i think

00:33:32.160 people would pay to see that i think i'm gonna play some songs that are not released that no

00:33:36.900 one's heard before except for my children so they could be bad actually but come and check that out

00:33:43.360 wow quite the sales pitch right there they could be bad unreleased songs so bad they didn't make

00:33:48.480 the cut for the latest album i'm working on them no that'll be great uh as we jump into this

00:33:54.740 discussion now on christian education um i i kind of want to ask just in general this idea of

00:34:00.800 universal education brian you asked a question in the cold open is it an unqualified good thing

00:34:06.700 And I think one of the things that would cause you to ask a question would just be the fruit in general of the education system.

00:34:15.000 And so if you just stop and you say, look at education across America, simple question, is it working?

00:34:23.820 No, it's not working well right now.

00:34:26.620 What?

00:34:27.220 I know.

00:34:27.760 It's unbelievable.

00:34:28.440 The thing is, we've made like with subjects like this, the instinct is always going to be to oversimplify and try to basically say it's all good or it's all bad.

00:34:39.980 And we have to resist that because I think when we're talking about universal education from a Christian perspective, societal perspective, we're talking about something that on the one hand, if properly defined and with the right safeguards and we're aware of certain pitfalls that are possible.

00:34:56.940 universal education is an ideal. It's a good ideal. Like I do think that the Protestants were

00:35:02.640 right in the 17th century and beyond in developing this concept of universal education from the

00:35:11.300 priesthood of all believers. I think that's true. We should want our girls and our boys to grow up 0.83

00:35:17.440 to be women and men who are able to read, interact with the scriptures directly, reason well, like we

00:35:22.060 say at St. Brennan's a lot, to think well, read well, write well, and speak well within the

00:35:28.940 boundaries and varied giftings that God gave them in particular. So I think that's definitely a good

00:35:36.620 goal. We should want that. But then on the other side, I think of some of the wisdom of past ages

00:35:42.560 that we've erased with some of the things that came along with the rise of universal education.

00:35:47.740 I'm not saying they're necessarily causally related, but we've certainly embraced things

00:35:51.420 like egalitarianism. We've flattened out the world in terms of hierarchy, and we have embraced

00:35:57.620 ideas about mankind that simply aren't true. They're not how God made the world.

00:36:02.140 Like the idea that anybody can become anything, that everybody has the same amount of talent,

00:36:08.060 everybody has the same amount of an aid, you know, whatever. That's just not true. And also,

00:36:13.880 looping in the sex piety discussion, that men and women are interchangeable and that we should

00:36:19.120 educate them identically um i kind of like what john milton talked about in one of his uh you

00:36:25.060 know paradise lost he talked about um one of his educational treatises it was like tractatus

00:36:31.580 educate something about education in the and he he's talked about how he wanted all he had

00:36:38.100 daughters and he wanted them all to be literate and and well read and and that sort of thing but

00:36:42.760 then he actually warned about a ditch he's like but i also don't want them to lose track of

00:36:48.220 essentially their particular vocation as women. And that's the kind of wisdom that I think we're

00:36:55.840 in danger of losing. We've certainly lost it in terms of popular culture, like the background

00:37:01.760 average of universal education in the West. But I think we've also even lost it or degraded it

00:37:07.560 significantly in the world of Christian education, classical Christian education,

00:37:11.980 homeschooling, and many other areas.

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00:41:26.140 Yeah, Dan, thoughts on that?

00:41:28.140 Kind of the nature, I think what Brian's getting at, the nature of universal education,

00:41:33.120 but sort of the idea, you know, I was thinking about this, even with kids who are 17, 18

00:41:38.900 years old, if they want to get married, they want to go start working.

00:41:43.360 The knee-jerk reaction, even among Christians, is what about college?

00:41:47.720 like we take it as that is, you know, to Brian's point, it's like a natural right for everybody

00:41:53.760 somehow that they would do that, or even that that would be good. So do you see this as helpful

00:41:58.840 in the way we've thought through education as a society? There was, there were a lot of questions

00:42:04.760 actually there. The first thing I would say is universal education in itself isn't, it's

00:42:10.140 transitive, I guess, in a way it depends, it depends on what they're being educated to.

00:42:14.180 if if the principle was was essentially we want people to be able to read and write and do basic

00:42:22.660 mathematics like who could say that's that's really a bad thing um but i think the universal

00:42:28.180 education system we have now while it's not working in one sense it is working in another

00:42:34.760 sense and that is to produce what we have like this is it's not accidental uh that we have this

00:42:41.940 the, the people that we have now, the educated people that we have now, and we'll probably get

00:42:46.180 into like voter demographics and, and, uh, into like gender, uh, or sexual, uh, confusion and

00:42:53.280 things like that. It's really been used, uh, to undermine Christian values and Christian

00:42:59.400 principles and things like that. So it is working and it isn't working depends on the measure that

00:43:05.440 you have. But as a, as a standard, like one of the, one of the things that Brian read in the

00:43:11.920 cold open was the Puritan instinct with the desire and actually the government oversight of

00:43:19.860 mandating education for, for people, for young, young people so that they knew how to read so

00:43:26.040 they could read the scriptures, you know, things like that. I think universal, universal education

00:43:31.020 is great. If you were to take our current system, though, I would say it's not great because it's

00:43:36.440 of what it's producing. And so if you were to have the standpoint that, you know, you could

00:43:41.460 define education, it's multifaceted. One of the ways to look at education, though, is to say that

00:43:47.640 it's liberating in a way that like it separates you from the beasts. You know, you're an image

00:43:55.080 bearer of God. And as such, you can do things like think and create and communicate and build

00:44:02.580 and all of these sorts of things. And so what education does is it actually frees you from the

00:44:08.400 confines of like bestial man versus, you know, ascendant man. And I know that's rife with all

00:44:15.540 sorts of problems, you know, evolutionary stuff and things like that. But, but, but the point is

00:44:20.300 education actually does liberate you. It gives you the ability to think and to reason. And it

00:44:26.580 does transcend from basic man into a different sort of man, a man that can read the scriptures,

00:44:33.760 a man that has access to knowledge and everything like that. And so we should desire that to a

00:44:39.100 degree for every person. Now, as far as the continuing education, I also think that Brian

00:44:46.000 read this in the cold open, you know, that the assumption that every person would be in school

00:44:51.200 until their twenties, I think that's pretty crazy. I think that's actually insane. Why?

00:44:58.860 Well, part of the reason is because, uh, because of the industrial revolution,

00:45:03.140 the motives to actually educate people, uh, further in their, in their lifespan into an

00:45:10.440 older age, remove them from the workforce. It, it does things like it extends adolescence so that

00:45:17.640 men and women are no longer maturing at a rate that they did in the past. And you can see this

00:45:22.800 with the, uh, you know, the, the stereotypical basement dweller in millennial world is really

00:45:27.600 where you saw this, uh, where millennials are staying with their parents into their mid twenties

00:45:32.600 and into their thirties. Obviously those millennials are now older, but, uh, I think

00:45:37.220 the trend will definitely continue because you can't even work until you're, what, 16?

00:45:45.860 It really depends on the job. But you can't even get employment at this point. So it extends that

00:45:53.780 adolescence. It removes this idea of responsibility and being a productive member of your family

00:45:59.520 because your job is now school in perpetuity. It does something else too. It creates people that

00:46:04.860 are really good at school and the metrics of school. So you have a very strict task list.

00:46:13.380 You have your syllabus, you have your daily assignments or weekly assignments. You have

00:46:17.120 your readings assigned and everything like that. You're force fed everything that you're given,

00:46:21.600 preparing for tests. And so then you go out into the workforce and it's like, here's your,

00:46:25.920 here's your realm of responsibility. Get these, get this job done. And you're like, well,

00:46:30.520 how, what am I supposed to do? Like you didn't give me the reading. You didn't give me the test.

00:46:35.900 And so it's not actually creating people who have the ability to think, which is one of the things

00:46:41.980 that Brian said about our students is being able to think well. They're not able to actually

00:46:47.500 interact with a world outside of a high school or university, you know, sort of environment.

00:46:54.100 So, I mean, I could ramble on all day about that, but, but essentially summarizing universal

00:46:59.620 education i think is a good thing but it depends on your measure what are you yeah what what it

00:47:05.420 depends on is what it's an inescapable concept it's not what kind like whether you're going to

00:47:10.280 have education or not it's just what do you mean by that and i think this is what steven wolf one

00:47:15.100 of the things he was getting at in his critique of jeremy wayne tate i think is his name um his

00:47:22.000 he said a very boilerplate classical christian education thing which is the criticism that

00:47:27.120 modern education in a way that wasn't normative in history was primarily geared towards getting

00:47:33.040 you a job. So that's the way most moderns think about education. He's right to push back on that

00:47:38.260 because that is an impoverished view of education. You're basically reducing man to an economic

00:47:45.920 machine or an industrial piece of industrial machinery. And you're not actually thinking

00:47:52.000 about his moral formation, the ordering of his loves, all of these things. What Stephen Wolfe

00:47:57.380 is pushing back on, though, is that in our society, when you add in something that while

00:48:02.960 Jeremy Tate is correct about, historically, that's not how they thought about education.

00:48:07.400 But wait a second, if we're going to be doing resourcement about what education was like

00:48:11.500 in times past, let's make sure we recover the whole thing, because also education wasn't

00:48:16.280 universal. It didn't have to be about how to get a job, because all of the people who

00:48:21.540 were doing it already had a job their nobility they were clergy and nobility so the masses the

00:48:27.220 commoners they didn't have the luxury the the time the money and the the lack of a need to work to

00:48:34.460 make a living in the same way um to go about and learn basically multiple languages interact with

00:48:41.520 all the classic works to excel in these are specific skills of those trades rhetoric logic

00:48:50.160 some of these things. So what modern classical education and Christian, classical Christian

00:48:55.880 education, especially of the Protestant variety, has done is to say, okay, but hang on, we're all

00:49:02.040 saints. We're all, we're a kingdom of priests. So we all, to an extent, have a need to have these

00:49:08.900 kingly abilities. The book of Proverbs was also written quite particularly to educate young men 0.97

00:49:15.620 to be kings. Solomon, that's what he was doing. They were his sons. However, God saw fit to give

00:49:21.680 the Proverbs to all of us. So apparently there's wisdom there that we all need. Maybe all of us

00:49:26.300 are supposed to be kings on some level. We're supposed to rule our own spirit. But then when

00:49:30.500 you get... So true king. So true king. It's when you take that... There's a two-step here, though,

00:49:36.440 that egalitarianism has done, particularly theological egalitarianism has done. And it

00:49:41.600 is to misunderstand how that truth works out in its application into the earthly kingdom.

00:49:47.260 Right? We see it with sexed piety. We see it all over the place with people saying there's neither

00:49:52.200 male nor female. Therefore, stop, you guys, stop emphasizing all these distinctions between men

00:49:57.960 and women. They're taking a theological truth that is true of our status as saints. There's

00:50:05.440 no distinction between a man and a woman before God in terms of their inheritance in Christ. That's

00:50:10.900 true and then they're misapplying sphere yeah they're misapplying it how does that relate to

00:50:15.380 the earthly kingdom though and it doesn't mean now that of course it doesn't mean there's no

00:50:19.180 male and female in household code things because paul himself who wrote that other sentence also

00:50:23.940 wrote another sentence wives submit to your husbands children obey your parents um onesimus

00:50:30.000 go back to fight like he slaves obey your masters so what i what i think steven is getting at is a

00:50:36.020 couple important things. And it's really where the idea for this episode came, was like, that's

00:50:41.320 something we've been talking about a lot, is how do we honor both of these truths as they relate

00:50:46.020 to each of the realms they live in, without flattening everything when it's applied to the

00:50:51.420 earthly kingdom. So how do we, yes, educate all of our people, men and women, boys and girls,

00:50:57.020 to be able to perform the duties of saints, which is a high and lofty duty, to contemplate their God,

00:51:04.320 to have whole-souled ability to glory and revel in the God that made them and the world that that

00:51:11.160 God made. Absolutely, we need to do that. But then also, how do we make sure that we don't

00:51:17.340 muddle them all together and eliminate all distinction in the same way the theological

00:51:21.300 egalitarians did with everything else when it comes to like, but in terms of the practical,

00:51:27.100 they actually, most people do have to go get a job. And so universal education by its nature

00:51:33.080 must prepare the average person for the duties God gave them.

00:51:38.060 And most of those people, one of the big duties they're going to have,

00:51:40.680 at least we believe that the men ought to be thinking,

00:51:43.260 I have to go get a job.

00:51:45.500 What classical Christian education in its rhetoric often does

00:51:49.800 is it minimizes the variegation and hierarchy in the world

00:51:54.620 when it comes to that.

00:51:55.620 And they say basically, yeah, but everybody will be benefited

00:51:58.700 from getting 12 years through age 18

00:52:01.800 of classical Christian schooling

00:52:03.160 and then an additional four years

00:52:05.120 of a liberal arts degree

00:52:06.180 because it will make them

00:52:07.340 great leaders and thinkers

00:52:09.040 in whatever they then go do

00:52:10.440 and put their hand to

00:52:11.420 in terms of vocation.

00:52:12.640 And I think that's overblown.

00:52:14.640 I actually think the average person

00:52:16.360 does not need a four-year

00:52:17.640 liberal arts degree

00:52:18.480 at least post-secondary school

00:52:20.780 and that the average person

00:52:23.000 actually should really be shifting

00:52:25.060 into thinking about

00:52:26.120 their vocation and duties

00:52:28.040 whether the vocations of a man or of a woman, somewhere around secondary school.

00:52:32.900 I mean, junior high, high school, somewhere in that, not waiting until they're 22 to 24,

00:52:38.240 but somewhere in secondary school, we should start really branching out and saying,

00:52:44.080 and I think, look at how God made the world.

00:52:45.800 That's also the time when boys and girls begin to enter into their physical distinction,

00:52:51.320 in particular with puberty.

00:52:53.560 Little boys start to become young men.

00:52:55.900 Little girls start to become young women.

00:52:58.040 At that point, we really need to start being careful that we're not actually giving our girls the measures for success that are befitting of boys and not giving our boys measures of success that are really befitting of girls. 0.96

00:53:09.180 Yeah, I think it's a great point.

00:53:10.100 One of the things, too, I've noticed in our society is the secular society will develop a model like universal education, but they also do things like this is even shows up in something like J.D. Vance's book.

00:53:24.280 And it's not all wrong.

00:53:25.320 There's a good point to be made here. 0.97

00:53:26.580 But there's kind of a presupposition in all of it that if you just had the right education, it would bring everybody out of white trash Appalachia, for example. 0.99

00:53:35.240 Right. 1.00

00:53:35.460 The education itself is going to be the savior.

00:53:38.000 And the idea is that anybody could go from a J.D. Vance in Appalachia to the White House.

00:53:44.100 And I think the reality that you're getting at is, A, that's just not true.

00:53:48.380 That's not normative.

00:53:50.080 And so to set a system up where you're aiming at that for everyone, you're failing to recognize reality, which is that a lot of our sons are going to become welders and plumbers, and they're going to do a whole host of different things.

00:54:01.060 There will be a group of them that go on to be politicians and leaders.

00:54:05.280 But when you think even about the world, to your point in the cold open, 98% of people are not meant to be leaders.

00:54:13.440 So should, and when we're thinking about our institutions, a few layers to this.

00:54:18.040 First of all, we need to recognize that universal education is here to stay.

00:54:21.340 And it's actually overall, I think, a positive good in its basic conception that we should

00:54:26.420 be aiming for literacy and some basic body of knowledge that all of our boys, all of

00:54:30.640 our girls, all of our men, all of our women have.

00:54:32.520 A hundred percent agree with that. 0.99

00:54:34.000 Someone's going to hear this and say the Ogden guys think girls shouldn't learn how to read. 0.99

00:54:37.800 And those people are retarded because that's not what we're saying. 0.83

00:54:40.600 And here, let me just make it plain. 1.00

00:54:42.600 That's not what I'm saying.

00:54:43.280 But when we're thinking about shaping our institutions, we need to make sure that we're not shaping our institutions to cater to the whole as if that whole is made up of the top or of a particular 2% to 10% of the population.

00:55:00.400 That's actually a bad idea.

00:55:02.100 You'll end up failing the average person if you shape it in that way.

00:55:06.960 Instead, we need to take a principle that I think is a very good principle from another

00:55:11.500 educational theorist, Charlotte Mason.

00:55:14.300 She talked about how children are persons.

00:55:16.600 And there's a real egalitarian, like individualistic, everybody's a snowflake way of understanding

00:55:21.460 this that I don't think is what she meant.

00:55:23.060 Like everybody's a special snowflake and they're all equally great.

00:55:25.920 That's not true.

00:55:26.960 But people are different.

00:55:28.980 So we need to make sure that in our educational paradigms, we're budgeting for, we're factoring

00:55:33.960 in the average differentiation. And we have pathways basically to say, um, guy who's really

00:55:41.340 not been fitted by God to be a leader of men. Um, here is the thing you need to be focused on

00:55:47.080 learning. You need to become the most godly productive version of you that you actually are

00:55:51.620 guy who is gifted in terms of rhetoric and leadership and state. Here's, here's what you,

00:55:57.460 maybe you, you might be called to statesmanship or to study of law or a whole lot of you. Maybe

00:56:03.240 you're going to start businesses that are going to employ a lot of people. But what we need to

00:56:09.440 say is that God smiles over all those vocations. God doesn't look at the plumber doing his plumbing

00:56:16.960 and think, yeah, but if only he had more liberal arts education, he'd be better.

00:56:23.880 No, God smiles at the plumber doing his duty that he set before him with the gifts God gave him,

00:56:27.740 right? God smiles over the lawyer. God smiles over the king. God smiles over the commoner.

00:56:33.260 And what we tend to do in our egalitarian age is to think like, it's such a perfect example.

00:56:38.760 Everybody's a J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance is brilliantly intelligent. He's like a one in a

00:56:44.060 million. Okay. I mean, yes, he had all these challenges. It's a very inspiring story about

00:56:49.440 overcoming obstacles and working with what the Lord gave you to accomplish the best you can.

00:56:55.120 amazing story that he rose to now be the vice president of the united states but 999 out of

00:57:02.680 a thousand people in his same circumstance could not have done that it's not that just given the

00:57:08.520 right opportunities god literally didn't fit them for that well and some of the getting to some of

00:57:13.980 the foundational issues so this is as of 2022 but as of 2022 almost 60 percent of all undergraduates

00:57:22.920 in the U.S. were females. So then asking a question like, is that actually good that we're

00:57:28.640 taking our young women and we're saying you need to extend higher education until you're, let's say,

00:57:34.760 24, somewhere in that range. That doesn't include postgraduate and all that other stuff.

00:57:41.140 But then as we'll get into, Dan mentioned, you start looking at what 70, 80% of those women are 0.85

00:57:47.560 going to vote for leftist causes and you know really atrocious things like abortion um is it

00:57:54.120 actually a good thing that that's happening but then we have to say in the christian world do we

00:57:59.660 create colleges and we call them christian and then we just do the same thing and we flood them

00:58:04.600 with women right particularly when we're looking at something like titus 2 and and what paul says

00:58:10.780 in first timothy and and you're looking at the standard vocation the normative vocation for a

00:58:16.660 godly woman is household and mother you know that's what she's made to be and then you're 1.00

00:58:21.940 saying okay we're we're going to put her in an environment where she's going to get debt where 1.00

00:58:25.060 she's going to go to college then she's going to feel like she has to work after she gets out

00:58:29.160 is that the ideal i think the problem today if you have that again if you have that fundamental

00:58:34.460 presupposition that education is the savior of mankind then you're just going to say well more

00:58:39.500 of it would surely be better right uh which may not be the case i want to ask brian about um here

00:58:45.840 with St. Brennan's. First of all, just the general, why did we start the school?

00:58:51.800 This may shock some people. There are girls enrolled in the school. 0.99

00:58:55.400 Many of them.

00:58:56.280 Many such cases.

00:58:57.500 Some of them descended from me.

00:59:00.060 I think that's right. I want to get kind of the first concept and philosophy behind what we're

00:59:05.800 doing. And then I think what we'll do is we'll move into kind of some issues we've seen along

00:59:09.580 the way that why are we addressing this sort of question?

00:59:11.800 Sure. Yeah. So, I mean, education is an inescapable concept and universal education is here to stay. And that's actually probably not a bad thing in its base, like I've already said. So given that, I think Christians ought to be thinking in terms of building institutions that create and control those, basically address that need in society Christianly.

00:59:35.780 So rather than leaving it to our government or leaving it to the pagans, Christians, therefore, should be ones who are stepping in and saying, actually, we understand what a person is and what people are for.

00:59:48.560 And when we're talking about education, we're talking about discharging or creating people to be and do what they're for. 0.51

00:59:55.400 Right. So Christians should be creating educational institutions. 0.99

00:59:59.060 I absolutely believe that we should be known for that.

01:00:02.420 So we started a Christian school. Also to address some of the, I think, particular strengths of a school model, we wanted those to exist in our community, camaraderie specialization, and we've addressed some of this before.

01:00:16.520 So we started St. Brennan's Classical Christian Academy. In the after hours for patrons of the show, I think we're going to talk more about some particulars, like how we set it up so that it doesn't, our members, it's only open to members of our church, and we don't charge it too much.

01:00:32.420 basically if you're a member of our church and you tithe then the school is attached to our church

01:00:37.500 we'll talk more about some a lot of people asked on twitter as i opened it up for questions before

01:00:42.760 this episode about those particulars we'll talk about that in the after hours but on a basic level

01:00:49.980 what we're trying to do is especially as we grow and learn going forward we're trying to to address

01:00:58.140 both of those needs well. The need of, yes, we want that heavenly priesthood of all believers,

01:01:06.780 men and women, both having a certain inheritance of learning and shaping the ability for all of

01:01:13.760 our men and our women to think well, to read well, to have the tools of learning, to inherit

01:01:19.700 this great body of knowledge that is an inheritance of the West. We want them to have all of those

01:01:25.520 things, everybody. But then also, and this is something that we've been learning and growing

01:01:31.720 in and having lots of conversations about, also addressing that issue of, and yet how do we make

01:01:36.980 that school so it's not just catered to feminine strengths, like sitting still and being polite

01:01:44.300 and learning a lot, you know, and not moving, like the boys aren't as good at that, as well as

01:01:48.640 the particular skills of a certain subset who are really wired for some of those cultural elite

01:01:54.100 roles like states, pastors, statesmen. How do we address both of those so that we're actually

01:02:01.580 forming men and women who are able to do the duties God actually has called them to

01:02:05.740 while receiving that glorious inheritance in the right way? And those are not their intention

01:02:13.000 to some degree, but there is a way to do it. It's never going to be perfect. You're never

01:02:19.940 hit perfectly with every single student, but I think there's a way to do it. And I think we're

01:02:23.420 a little bit further off in the background average of classical Christian education in

01:02:27.620 particular. I think we're a little too egalitarian, and a little might be an understatement.

01:02:32.680 And I think that we have inadequately considered the ancient landmark that we moved in the 17th

01:02:39.760 century and beyond when education began to expand in the way that it did. I think some of this is

01:02:44.920 just natural. We've had these big societal shifts. It takes a while for things to see the ends of

01:02:50.940 things and then go back and say, let's tinker with our pre-founding presuppositions and move

01:02:56.700 forward and see if we can make the fruit even better. So those are some of the concerns we're

01:03:02.160 thinking. Let's build educational institutions. Amen. I think lots of Christians should be

01:03:06.280 thinking about this right now. And lots of good men and women are thinking about this in lots of

01:03:11.540 communities around the nation and the world. Amen. I want to say, keep going. I want to encourage

01:03:16.400 those people. This shouldn't be a wet blanket on them at all. But I want them to think like we are,

01:03:21.480 and maybe we can all be thinking about this as we grow and say, yeah, let's figure out though,

01:03:29.100 let's be critical of our own presuppositions and try to address where maybe we've been steering off

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01:07:23.740 Yeah, Dan, I want to ask you kind of the same question.

01:07:26.940 St. Brennan, some of the practical things that we've looked at where we've said,

01:07:31.720 hey, maybe we need some adjustments here and why thinking through,

01:07:36.740 you know, we talked boys and girls school, for example,

01:07:39.380 uh, maybe starting earlier with kind of that pushing people down certain tracks,

01:07:45.540 um, which is going to sound radical in our society, but when you're in that like 13,

01:07:51.180 14, 15 range and, and you start identifying giftings in a young man, for example,

01:07:57.380 we say, well, maybe we supplement with some apprenticeship, vocational training,

01:08:02.760 uh, they're really going to go this direction. Um, and then even for the young ladies saying,

01:08:07.780 um, is it, is it important that we have a young lady in the school every day of the week till

01:08:15.780 she's 18? Or are we going to supplement some of those things with say more time in her mom's 0.65

01:08:23.700 presence, learning homemaking skills, that sort of thing. So, so just kind of talk about some of

01:08:28.380 those issues. Yeah. A lot of what you talked about are aspirational because the foundations

01:08:33.400 of the school was like, Hey, we need a school. Yeah. You know, we had convictions just like

01:08:37.100 Brian had talked about, you know, um, in our, in our mind, we had a hierarchy of ideals in the

01:08:43.460 classical Christian school seemed to fit that ideal. And so we opened it up, uh, from first

01:08:49.240 grade to 12th grade. And we're like, okay, we got a school now. This is great. And then along the

01:08:54.520 way we've come to different, not different convictions, but also just reality to where

01:08:59.380 you just start where you are with what you have, which is usually not a lot of money or a lot of

01:09:05.340 resources as far as like people go and teachers and things like that. Praise God, our teachers

01:09:11.060 have been great, like since the very beginning. And part of that is, you know, without derailing

01:09:16.840 too much is, is we look at the teachers as really like guides to the, to original sources and to the

01:09:22.600 great teachers and the great tradition, you know, Western tradition. So that's really what, what

01:09:28.180 they're doing and they're doing an excellent job of it. But then there were certain things along

01:09:31.160 the way where we're like, we have, we had a, um, a male teacher in the older grades. Uh, and we

01:09:39.620 realized that's, that's great. Like, yes, on purpose, we did that and realized how important

01:09:44.780 it was to have that masculine influence in the school, you know, as far as a model for, for boys

01:09:51.340 to look to and for girls to look to for a future husband is like, this is what a godly man looks

01:09:56.540 like, you know? And, and so we actually like our male teachers are really important for the older

01:10:02.400 grades for a model. And, and, and now what we're really thinking through, like, like you mentioned

01:10:08.980 was we, we see just simply because we had to start somewhere and we started with everybody's

01:10:16.300 together. We don't have a lot of resources, you know, boys and girls are learning together and

01:10:20.880 we've had a couple of issues pop up as will happen with teenagers and boys and girls being

01:10:29.620 together. Nothing major, but it's just like distractions in the class. And just by the

01:10:34.940 nature of having women in male spaces or men in women's spaces, there's naturally going to be 0.94

01:10:41.840 some sort of change of the environment when you do that. Like if you're in a guy's locker room 0.92

01:10:48.660 And a lady comes in like a lady reporter is so often happens in sports. It changes the dynamic of the locker room. It's just not the same place. And so we kind of see that in the school. And so that's part of our exploratory desire to actually have a boys and girls school to really help emphasize what you what you also mentioned was the tracks that we've been thinking through. 1.00

01:11:13.040 Because I think one of the mistakes that we have, it's both in universal education, really, you're creating like cubicle workers in university, you know, universal education, the public school system in Christian classical schools.

01:11:26.120 I think you're creating intellectuals, but delaying the potential of each student as to what they can do, because I think that the presupposition is that education will just fix everything like your J.D. Vance sort of idea.

01:11:42.140 Well, simultaneously, those same people will say things like, oh, masculinity is caught, but not taught, right? You can read all of the books on masculinity you want. That doesn't mean you're going to be like a masculine man. You actually need a model in order to follow. And so that's kind of the motivation, part of the motivation behind tracks.

01:12:03.460 As you see, certain students that they've just got like the salesman riz and the entrepreneurial spirit.

01:12:10.680 And so identifying different men in the church that also share that sort of gifting and encouraging more of an apprenticeship model.

01:12:20.300 And there are other guys who are good at farming and just love the idea of farming.

01:12:25.460 And same thing, like identifying men that are really gifted at that and, and having them, you know, catch that sort of farmer or entrepreneurial or whatever, whatever the gifting is really from different models. And the same thing with ladies, having, having girls with different giftings and affinities in the home, this is already happening with like, I really like sewing and I really like stitching.

01:12:48.760 And there are ladies that do that. And there are clubs already that exist and there's cooking and

01:12:52.980 all of these things, as far as the feminine realm to where we can actually have a model that is

01:12:59.040 first it's education of all the things that Brian talked about. And second, like an entrepreneurial 0.95

01:13:05.360 discipleship into the realm that they really will thrive in. And so it creates a lot more

01:13:11.740 customization, but it's, it's important because you have to know, know the people you have

01:13:16.680 and also what they're really good at and then making them, putting them in a position to where

01:13:21.500 they can succeed. And I think a large part of that is with right models of actual people that

01:13:28.700 they can follow and become like and imitate. And it's also important that it's not just merely the

01:13:35.600 mother and father because the mother and father are, I mean, you can't like overstate the importance

01:13:43.340 of a mother and father, but having that another, like for your son, um, your, your eldest son,

01:13:49.340 Eric, you know, the importance of having other men come into his life and show him and challenge

01:13:55.840 him, you know, uh, in different areas that he might not see or might not listen as readily

01:14:00.660 to his own father as he would to other men that he respects and speak to him differently and

01:14:05.720 treat him differently. I'm sure you've seen that as well. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think

01:14:09.960 you need we're talking a lot about like mentorship um but this it can be adjacent with the school

01:14:16.940 right but i think having other guys uh speak into their lives is is super important um brian i want

01:14:24.100 to ask you particularly on the girls yeah uh maybe a potential pitfall um with this higher education

01:14:32.040 for everybody even if it's christian uh that i've seen is you know in one way we want to say well

01:14:39.420 higher education isn't about getting a job but come on i mean it it really is though uh for most

01:14:46.320 americans the you know the reason i got a journalism degree in college wasn't so that i

01:14:51.180 could just bask in the ethereal glory of journalism as a you know a concept a plutonic ideal yeah um

01:14:59.500 so when you think about that for girls though one of the problems just at a very practical level 0.87

01:15:04.540 you're in a household you're under mom and dad you're generally going away you you are taking

01:15:12.800 on kind of the single lady life and then if you let's say a young man says you know i want to get 1.00

01:15:19.200 married i want to start a family one of the things that i've seen is a lot of these young ladies 0.98

01:15:23.720 actually have a hard time going back into the home yes because life was easy you got coffee at 10 a.m 1.00

01:15:30.680 you worked a couple hours, you hung out with your girlfriends, you went and did fun things like see

01:15:35.420 movies, that's actually not preparing you for your vocation. Whereas on the flip side, I've seen a

01:15:42.200 lot of young ladies who spend most of their time with their family, mom and dad, they're getting 1.00

01:15:47.820 an education, but they're also working in a productive home. There's never a period in that 0.97

01:15:53.000 young lady's life where she's not around the household duties. Yeah, that's right. So I guess

01:15:57.820 just talk to that? Do you see that? And maybe why would we be thinking through that educationally?

01:16:03.980 Yeah, I mean, there's some basic principles that are important in this discussion.

01:16:07.660 Jesus talks about them in Luke, that the student, when he's fully trained, will become like his

01:16:12.100 teacher. So we're imagers. We're made to become what we behold. 2 Corinthians 3.18, that we all

01:16:18.920 with unveiled faces, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed from one degree of

01:16:22.920 glory to another into the same image. We're becoming what we're looking like. Hugh of St.

01:16:27.600 Victor, who is a big name in the world of classical Christian education in the Middle Ages, he said

01:16:33.720 that he compared a student to the soft wax put on an envelope and the teacher to the signet ring,

01:16:40.020 the seal stamped into that wax. The teacher actually is not just putting the information

01:16:47.260 he's teaching, the curricula, but he's putting the mark of himself on the student.

01:16:51.440 And there were even debates and movements within the history of classical education that moved more one way or the other, more towards we need a dynamic teacher whose stamp we're going to be putting on a student through we need the right information and it's all about the books.

01:17:07.620 it really is both because the books are just people their ideas writ like put put on paper

01:17:14.040 um leon podals adds a layer to it that brings in the sex to piety because that's all true i think

01:17:19.800 foundationally important to understand leon podals wrote the church impotent and he talked about

01:17:24.340 um this liminality when it comes to becoming a man liminal is from the the latin word for

01:17:32.460 threshold. So a liminal place is a threshold place. It's where you're between two states.

01:17:38.360 When you are a boy, you're in one state. When you're a man, you're in another state. But there's

01:17:43.360 this threshold between it that's really important where things can go wrong. And then he connected

01:17:49.240 some things on this thought that I'd never considered before, that for a young lady,

01:17:54.460 you know, picture she's in the home and dad is working. Even in older pre-industrial times,

01:18:01.060 dad was often out in the blacksmith shop out on the fields he was out somewhere and the woman was

01:18:07.560 more in the home and the business too in pre-industrial world a lot but it was very much

01:18:12.020 homeward oriented she was there a lot more nurturing raising so the young girls are 0.99

01:18:16.960 constantly surrounded by the image that they ought to become which is a woman but the sons

01:18:23.940 they actually have to exercise a departure from that they have to self-consciously almost depart

01:18:30.060 reject the woman as the model for what they need to become, and then go out and find the world of

01:18:37.060 men and find the image that they are to become, become a man, and then be properly reunited with 0.51

01:18:43.320 the feminine in marriage. So there's this liminal stage where they're still in the world of women 0.92

01:18:49.040 more, in youth, but they're departing to become truly a man. The women have a different process, 1.00

01:18:57.580 And right now, our educational process doesn't tend to reflect this. 1.00

01:19:01.480 So what we often do, one of the problems of sending our ladies out into this world, even 0.98

01:19:06.900 in classical Christian colleges, the mass majority of teachers are men. 0.98

01:19:09.920 So we're sending our women out into what is functionally, I don't care what they say,

01:19:14.640 it's the world of men, where they're learning the vocations of statesmen and of pastors

01:19:20.160 and of leaders.

01:19:21.840 And they're falling into the very ditch Milton warned about in that 1644 Tractate on Education. 0.99

01:19:27.580 They are becoming detached from the world of women. 0.97

01:19:33.660 They're doing what the men need to do. 0.97

01:19:36.080 They're departing the model of the woman to go become more like the man. 0.92

01:19:40.400 And now they have to return and reunite to the feminine in a way that's dysfunctional. 0.93

01:19:45.820 There's a break. 0.98

01:19:47.260 Why are we doing that?

01:19:49.020 We're not actually preparing them for their vocation properly.

01:19:52.260 We're telling them mixed things about what their vocation actually is.

01:19:56.200 the men on the other hand they need to depart this is why even from the very beginning with

01:20:01.660 limited resources we said starting at about puberty so about secondary school junior high

01:20:05.560 we're going to have a male teacher at the very beginning we i remember conversations we were

01:20:10.800 like we it would be ideal to have a boys school split especially at junior high but we can't yet

01:20:15.360 achieve that we don't even have enough people like one student in each of the schools so

01:20:19.060 let's let's wait on that one one teacher per student is not quite not actually great i mean

01:20:25.100 it works great ratio, but it doesn't work financially as well. So we're in the real world.

01:20:30.740 And now as our school grows and enrollment, you know, goes up by sometimes 20, 30% each year

01:20:35.780 with the lot of young kids coming in, people moving, that sort of thing. So we're now looking

01:20:41.060 and saying, let's, let's start planning ahead and saying, how can we accomplish what we set out 1.00

01:20:46.040 to do, which is to make sure that in that liminal stage, the young women are still becoming like a

01:20:52.160 woman and the young men are now becoming like a man, uh, like men with the boys and girls school.

01:20:56.940 Let's also consider things like some of these, again, they're aspirational. We're still talking

01:21:00.500 about them on our school board, but like, um, thinking about the school week and saying,

01:21:04.440 we don't actually necessarily have to have a five day school week. That's exactly the same

01:21:07.520 hours as public school. Maybe we have a four day school week and that gives another day in the home.

01:21:12.940 Or when you start to get into that boys school and girls school more time that where the education

01:21:18.620 begins more and more to overlap directly with the future vocation, whether it's trades, business,

01:21:24.200 states, you know, whatever it is, or homemaking, child rearing, becoming a godly woman, those

01:21:30.560 kinds of vocations as well. We're trying to account for those things. So you see kind of

01:21:36.140 where you're always having to figure out how to chart a course through the average while still

01:21:41.900 calling those two to five percent of young you know men who are like come on man you're called

01:21:48.920 to be a lord of men right like you're a business leader you're a church you're a church leader

01:21:54.560 you're a you're a thinker talker reader writer that's what you are come on like you're not

01:21:59.760 fooling anybody that's what you are and then other guys were like praise god you're actually not that

01:22:04.780 you're probably what are you what are you passionate about what are you gift where did

01:22:08.240 the Lord give you great talents. And people think like, you can't figure this out till kids 20.

01:22:12.300 Dude, I'm seeing this in my six-year-olds, like five-year-olds, 10-year-olds. I could,

01:22:16.960 I could talk about all my kids with the exception probably of Alfred, because he's just under two

01:22:22.100 and he just eats and chuckles a lot. But like, I could, I can tell you, maybe I can guess

01:22:29.680 the general direction each of my children will go. And I think with a high degree of accuracy,

01:22:35.720 We were actually talking about this, things that our parents told us. I think Brian was saying

01:22:40.880 something like, you know, when you were young, people were like, you're going to be like a

01:22:43.900 preacher or a lawyer. My sixth grade teacher said, you're going to be the president of the United

01:22:47.020 States. And every single person in my whole life has said, you're, you're going to be a statesman,

01:22:53.040 a lawyer, or a pastor. Those are one of the three things you're going to, nobody said anything

01:22:57.080 different. I wanted to be a fighter pilot until I was 16 because my air force family, I was like,

01:23:02.240 no, I'm going to get an engineering degree. I'm going to be a fighter pilot. They sat me down at

01:23:05.660 pre-engineering school in high school and they said not my brother in christ but it was the same

01:23:10.080 idea you are not good at math you are good at talkie talkie do do not try this what you're

01:23:17.400 saying get out so i left i had to leave the like high school they have these emphases like you

01:23:23.220 could be in pre-engineering like education track like all these different ones they're like you

01:23:26.900 need to go something whatever it is not this yeah and it was not obvious to me but everybody else

01:23:34.460 in my whole life was like my parents were probably like yeah sure you're going to be a fighter

01:23:38.520 problem right no you're going to be a lawyer statesman pastor that's what you're going to be

01:23:44.380 and then it caught up but i was convinced i was going to play in the nba but um what what led you

01:23:51.440 nothing but yeah it was funny even as a kid i don't think it was a compliment but i would have

01:23:57.680 you know extended family members they'd be like i think you're going to be a lawyer or a preacher

01:24:01.900 Usually that means that you argue with people a lot.

01:24:04.240 You talk a lot.

01:24:05.500 I'm like, okay.

01:24:07.020 But yeah, I think identifying some of those things.

01:24:09.320 It's interesting too, you mentioned with the liminal state,

01:24:13.220 liminal range there with Leon Potals,

01:24:15.980 but I was also thinking of Ann Douglas

01:24:17.340 and the feminization of American culture.

01:24:19.980 One of the things that she brings up,

01:24:22.060 what happened with the pastorate in the 1800s in America

01:24:25.560 was that the primary person who got called into ministry

01:24:28.700 were boys who stayed home with mom they were usually sickly and so they became this is not

01:24:36.000 making me feel good about no especially the unitarians they became men who could communicate

01:24:40.500 with their wives and mothers and women female sensibilities so i mean another enough but it's

01:24:46.200 another case in point of you want to make sure that again that you don't have young men who are

01:24:53.640 constantly their teachers are all women which is especially in high school with the mark of women

01:24:59.560 it was odd in high school i think like my high school uh junior senior year you had more of it

01:25:05.640 but in junior year and senior year we had two teachers who were men and that was like we're

01:25:11.020 like wow they found men to do this job but predominantly all your teachers were women

01:25:16.800 And so you want to be able to think through those things. Dan, on the kind of like future trajectories, not only for our school, but thinking through these issues, it is a contentious thing. Maybe even the Stephen Wolf, Jeremy Wayne Tate, you can see that this isn't really something that a lot of people have. They've accepted the way that things are.

01:25:37.880 So it's a little bit, I guess, controversial, or it can be contentious to go back and say, why was the ancient landmark there?

01:25:46.940 I guess what encouragement, especially pastorally, you've had to think through a lot of issues in your life and change positions.

01:25:54.920 What kind of advice would you give people when you're going to examine an issue like this?

01:26:00.500 You know, maybe, maybe, for example, the knee jerk for people is like, oh, you're a misogynist.

01:26:05.380 you know of course women can do everything men can do but just thinking through those issues

01:26:10.800 how would you encourage somebody yeah the first thing i would say and this is actually one of the

01:26:15.700 aims of the school of uh of st brennan's is that uh interested people are interesting people

01:26:23.360 and first be interested the uninterested person just accepts whatever they see whatever they're

01:26:31.120 given. And so first be interested. Second is something that, that, you know, pastors say,

01:26:38.560 we say all the time is to have no problem passages. So when you're reading the scriptures

01:26:42.420 and you look at the household code, you're talking specifically about sex piety and how it relates

01:26:48.340 to education and the future of your children, because even, even still there, it's snuck into

01:26:54.400 the, through the walls of the church because the walls of the church are permeable. Is this idea

01:26:59.380 like yeah my girls you know they could just settle to be a mom and a wife and a homemaker 1.00

01:27:05.880 but you know she could also be like a dragon slayer though on the side right you know sort 1.00

01:27:12.380 of thing you know you then you examine the scriptures and you're like yeah i mean there 0.92

01:27:16.680 was like yael you know some dude sisera came into her tent she was just heating up milk in her tent

01:27:23.080 she was heating up milk and talk about killer hospitality but oh hey i'll be here all week

01:27:30.140 i've been saving that for a long wow unbelievable can't get no respect anyway um so i would just

01:27:39.960 just first and foremost look at the scriptures and just examine what it has to say and when you

01:27:45.920 start running into these presuppositions that are like this is this is actually in conflict

01:27:51.600 with what the scriptures are saying about what I understand about the world and what I, what I

01:27:57.560 think the aims of my children are and what men and women are actually supposed, what they were made

01:28:02.380 for. You actually have to be willing to bend your will towards the scriptures and just say, God

01:28:08.400 ordered the world this way. And there's obviously nuance within that because one of the common

01:28:13.740 objections, Brian is the Proverbs 31 woman is like, Oh yeah, you just want women to stay at home 0.78

01:28:19.200 and to just like, what, just make babies, be barefoot, pregnant in the kitchen. And part of 1.00

01:28:24.460 that is like, well, my wife does that. She was probably doing that right now, by the way. But,

01:28:28.540 but then they're like, well, the Proverbs 31 woman was like a business mogul, real estate mogul. 1.00

01:28:32.980 You know, she had a winery, she would buy, sell and trade. She was in the import export business, 1.00

01:28:39.460 you know, really stretching the pretty much Donald Trump. This is, she's the best. So I mean,

01:28:47.540 she was the mistress of a productive domain over which her husband was lord

01:28:50.920 he was an important this this cracks me up this is such a great point we talk a lot about soviet

01:28:56.580 union at least i feel like we have recently mainly because i read a lot of tom clancy

01:29:00.600 but the soviet union what it tried to do is um it tried on marxism and then marxism leninism

01:29:08.160 basically theorized that all the problems were related to class and class distinction and we

01:29:13.520 have the bourgeois and we have basically the capitalist class that's oppressing and extracting

01:29:19.000 resources sinfully and wickedly from this oppressed class. We need the people to rise up and that will

01:29:24.560 be the communist revolution. They will seize the means of production, eliminate structural inequity

01:29:31.280 and inequality, and then there will be utopia. Do you know what happened when the Soviet Union 0.93

01:29:35.900 actually attempted all of that? Is that all they did is they rebranded everything. So instead of 0.87

01:29:41.440 Tsar Nicholas II and, you know, you have the Tsars in Russia who were many of them comically

01:29:46.180 incompetent. No question. Many monarchs have been incompetent in history. All they did was they

01:29:51.920 elected through the party apparatus, regional, some over tens, some over fifties, some over

01:29:57.700 hundreds, some over thousands. At the top was the Politburo of, you know, a dozen men or, you know,

01:30:03.120 a handful of men. They were the voting members. And then they had a second ring within the Politburo

01:30:07.800 that were the non-voting Politburo members

01:30:10.080 who were coming up and learning

01:30:11.960 from the voting Politburo members.

01:30:14.880 And, oh, you know what we need?

01:30:16.760 We're going to need,

01:30:17.360 because the Politburo members,

01:30:18.540 they have such important work

01:30:19.560 and they're all really high capacity men.

01:30:21.280 Let's clear the center lanes of all the roads

01:30:23.380 and no one's allowed to use them

01:30:24.460 except the Politburo

01:30:25.480 because they need to be able

01:30:26.660 to get back and forth really quickly.

01:30:28.680 And then, you know what?

01:30:29.340 They have a lot of stress.

01:30:30.280 We're going to give them special privileges

01:30:31.640 like houses out in the countryside,

01:30:33.700 dachas out in the hills.

01:30:35.200 They can go and recoup right there 0.87

01:30:37.180 and have important meetings there.

01:30:39.020 And you know what they did?

01:30:39.980 They invented monarchy.

01:30:41.680 They just invent because hierarchy is inescapable.

01:30:45.460 What you will find is that,

01:30:47.060 and this offends our sensibilities

01:30:49.100 because we're so egalitarian.

01:30:51.820 Guys, God made a world where something like 40%

01:30:56.100 or I don't know a percentage,

01:30:57.480 some large percent of the population will do better

01:31:00.880 if they are ruled over by, employed by,

01:31:04.500 whatever you want to call it in its economic function, by somebody else who was gifted with

01:31:10.580 a leadership and ruling capacity. And then this principle will go all the way up until you have

01:31:15.140 a few people leading a great number of people. Jesus led the three within the 12, then there

01:31:22.900 was the 72 and the 144, and you can go out. The second you get into bureaucratic egalitarianism,

01:31:31.920 what you know is that you don't like the world God actually made and you want to impose your own

01:31:36.580 and what you the only thing you'll end up doing is either incompetence or you will reinvent

01:31:41.360 hierarchy and you'll just call it something else oh it's the polyp bureau not the monarchy

01:31:46.180 so we do this constantly in history we rearrange a few basic principles and we're like

01:31:51.820 aha we fit we found all the problems and it was in this hierarchy stuff but God's like

01:31:58.400 Am I a joke to you?

01:31:59.220 I did.

01:31:59.780 That was me.

01:32:00.300 I think part of the problem too, is that, um, for, for people who have pressed into

01:32:05.500 sex piety for a long period of time, one of the things that we try to do with education

01:32:09.960 or can be tempted to try to do is kind of to say to the world who hates us, see, we're

01:32:15.400 not so bad, you know, and, and particularly in how we treat our ladies.

01:32:21.220 So one, one of, it kind of goes like this, right?

01:32:23.560 You're like, see, we educate them to a really high standard.

01:32:27.540 See, we treat them functionally. 0.61

01:32:29.220 We treat them like the men.

01:32:31.120 We put them through these extensive educational rigor, all those things.

01:32:36.300 Instead of, I think, Dan, to your point, and Zach Garris over here to my left, in honor of their fathers, instead of saying, let's just start with the scripture.

01:32:45.420 And then let's also look at the history of Christendom and say, what did people think about this sort of thing? 0.81

01:32:51.460 and the answer that you get will not be hey every girl needs to go slay queen higher education be a

01:32:58.340 slay queen you will find very little slay queen in history except where it can be artificially

01:33:04.560 sustained by a cadre of men who protect it with swords correct right so i think even just the

01:33:11.540 notion it's hard like culturally to get over it to recognize hey if we put forward this kind of

01:33:17.200 philosophy of education, tracks. We put more of an emphasis on the home for women. 0.81

01:33:23.840 Yeah. In our culture, you're just going to be hated for those sorts of things. 1.00

01:33:26.740 No, I think that's a good point. We do this with business books all the time. You see a

01:33:31.940 successful business and the founder of the business writes a book on how to do what he did.

01:33:36.900 How do you emulate the success? But for some reason in the Christian world, we haven't had 0.99

01:33:44.800 the interest, I think there's an emerging interest in different eras of Christian history,

01:33:50.840 of church history, that there have been societal blessings and a lot of success.

01:33:56.880 And then looking back at, well, what did they do during that time? And so much of it is such a

01:34:03.060 jarring difference from what we're doing now. But I think that's really where things start to fall

01:34:08.640 apart is when you just take like, well, the public school model and we'll just sprinkle Jesus on it.

01:34:14.800 and we'll get a different outcome.

01:34:16.480 Or we'll have the same higher education.

01:34:18.880 Yeah. 0.99

01:34:19.280 It'll just be Christianized. 0.98

01:34:20.740 It'll be Christianized. 1.00

01:34:21.600 Instead of actually looking back at previous models, 0.99

01:34:24.380 previous successful and flourishing periods in church history,

01:34:28.440 and saying, like, well, what did they do?

01:34:30.480 How did they apply the scriptures?

01:34:31.600 How did they understand sex piety?

01:34:33.080 How did they understand the role of men in society

01:34:36.140 and of rulers and of government and of the church

01:34:38.440 and things like that?

01:34:39.360 And you can see the mistakes and missteps and how it ended.

01:34:43.300 You know, that's another part of the story.

01:34:44.800 You can see how it began, you can see how it ended, and then figure out how not to do those things that caused it to fall apart.

01:34:51.240 And so that's part of our interest in really the history of the church in its entirety, not just in this snapshot period in the Reformation, which we have interest in, but the entirety of church history.

01:35:05.500 Yeah, the other thing I think it may be a good place to close, but just recovering the idea of the productive household.

01:35:10.920 We've done an episode on this with Pastor Madden, but this is also really important.

01:35:15.380 You can read Alan Carlson and there's lots of people, right?

01:35:19.800 C.R. Wiley's talked about this, Rory Groves, but recovering the productive household becomes

01:35:25.360 important because then you think, okay, I think this is the biblical model.

01:35:29.560 And then what we're actually trying to do is prepare men and women to be a part of that

01:35:34.080 entity as opposed to the raw, you know, individualism of America that we have today 0.69

01:35:41.200 where it's like, no, you know, having, you know, so many single women is a really good thing.

01:35:46.320 That's what most people think today. Whereas you say like, no, actually there's a reason that

01:35:51.280 they're one of the most powerful voting blocks for the left. We actually don't want to, it's not

01:35:57.180 primarily to get a woman a career. It's not primarily to get her through an advanced degree, 1.00

01:36:02.980 but, and for men to say like the thing that even vocationally what you're training for

01:36:07.720 is to lead a productive household. Well, that's a different telos. That's a different aim than

01:36:14.580 simply, you know, go crush it, make a ton of money, spend it on yourself and then go on social

01:36:20.460 security later in life. If that's even there by the time we get there, probably not probably won't

01:36:25.180 even be there stay safe mask up get the vax don't take unnecessary risks be careful we've been

01:36:37.100 coddled smothered in warnings trained to fear and avoid risk we've been taught to play it safe and

01:36:43.720 be on our guard and not just against a scraped knee or a failed endeavor no we've been taught

01:36:49.240 to censor our speech, our words, even our thoughts.

01:36:52.980 Don't think those dangerous thoughts, don't notice, don't speak out.

01:36:57.120 If you do, we're coming for you.

01:36:59.640 Who's coming for you?

01:37:01.220 It almost doesn't even matter.

01:37:03.000 Whether it's the HR lady at your company of either sex,

01:37:06.460 weaponized church courts, the social media censors,

01:37:09.360 or even those you once considered allies.

01:37:12.340 Watch out, take care, play it safe.

01:37:15.460 But was it always this way?

01:37:16.600 Have we always lived under this kind of stifling, wet-blanketing panopticon? 1.00

01:37:22.360 Is this the spirit of our Christian forefathers? 0.99

01:37:25.020 Of the men who founded our nation in blood and in faith, 0.50

01:37:28.500 willing to face down all the might of Britannia and her redcoats? 1.00

01:37:32.620 There was a time when Americans didn't shrink from risk, 1.00

01:37:35.780 when they would rather die than bend.

01:37:37.540 our christian forefathers knew what it was to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard

01:37:47.280 they knew what it was to set sail for the unknown they defied tyrants they built explored and dared

01:37:54.300 great things who settled this land who built one of the greatest nations ever to be who settled

01:38:01.100 the west and covered the continent from sea to sea with the christian people who searched out

01:38:06.000 glories, crisscrossed the plains with railroads, and fought off usurpers and invaders on all sides.

01:38:12.220 Risk wasn't a bug, it was a feature. Without it, our fathers knew, there was no greatness.

01:38:18.080 And now, we're supposed to trade boldness for bureaucracy? We're supposed to tremble at the

01:38:23.320 unknown instead of mastering it? We're supposed to bow and scrape, not even before bullets,

01:38:28.720 but before HR ladies? We don't think so. It's time to remember who we are. 0.93

01:38:34.080 this year join us here at new christendom press for our annual conference safety third

01:38:40.160 recovering the american will to greatness four days to forge new friendships build coalition

01:38:45.800 and work to recover what was lost it's time to reclaim the spirit that built this nation

01:38:51.260 to break free from fear to risk to build to lead the future belongs to the bold

01:38:57.700 um so i think productive household becomes a really important part of the equation yeah the

01:39:07.520 the industry the first and second industrial revolutions i brought up in the cold open for

01:39:13.340 a reason because those really did play a huge part in reshaping how education ended up shaking

01:39:19.480 out because it made it possible all of a sudden to disconnect people the vast majority of people

01:39:24.340 from doing the thing their dad did or a household from replicating itself it created the nuclear

01:39:31.880 family instead of the extended family and tribe right so you know even the ways that we think

01:39:36.620 about women working today like we talk a lot about how women shouldn't you know they need 0.88

01:39:40.300 to be workers at home instead of like going and getting a career even that language is is so 1.00

01:39:45.120 foreign to the way that like women did work in history um they worked in the household

01:39:50.840 often connected with the husband's trade they were directly connected so you might have a store 0.99

01:39:56.680 maybe a mercantilist store that would be you know run a husband is the head of this house and he's

01:40:02.740 engaged in this business and she's helping a ton in that store and in that because it's their 0.97

01:40:06.780 household blacksmith shop and she's helping a lot with managing client like there was lots of ways

01:40:11.540 in which the man and the woman teamed up she was his helper so it wasn't like there was vocation

01:40:16.680 where they made money and then there was this clean hermetic break and then she was over here

01:40:21.100 with the household the household and the economy were a unit that's what people that's what we

01:40:26.000 mean by productive household so we talk about in bright hearth all the time it's like my wife is

01:40:31.360 my helper in accomplishing my vocational things as well as a pastor and as you know a publishing

01:40:38.660 company we're like all these different things that i do and she's deeply connected to them

01:40:42.900 but in ways that are distinctly feminine and free me to be undistractedly able to accomplish the

01:40:49.140 mission. So when there was that level of connection, you could see why the bulk of

01:40:54.440 education was the replication of that household, of replicating the man and the woman to go out

01:41:01.140 and form new little seed households that would grow and still be interconnected with the original.

01:41:05.620 That was great. That was what community was. Industry separated those things with mechanization

01:41:11.260 and the rise of factories. And even like these steel production technology played a part. A lot

01:41:16.420 of different things played a part. Ultimately, globalist trade played a large part. Now we have

01:41:23.080 this kind of artificially, like we are able to sustain these very strange modes of being

01:41:29.380 where you can like have this individual floating person who has like the economic productivity to

01:41:35.420 some degree, but it's not pouring into or building anything bigger than itself. It doesn't know what

01:41:41.380 it's for. That's why a lot of rich single ladies are absolutely miserable. They're not doing what 1.00

01:41:47.180 they were, what they were for, not building anything bigger than, they're not helping

01:41:50.300 anything bigger. They're not doing the things God made them to be and to do. So when we get all the

01:41:56.600 way out on the end of the branch of this educational question, like we have to adequately reckon for

01:42:01.040 with all of that change, if we're to figure out how to balance between the ideal of this morally

01:42:07.680 virtue-imposing education or virtue-imparting education and the real world we live in where 0.64

01:42:13.380 it's like the wreckage of nuclear families and the jobs are what they are. And I think the chart 0.90

01:42:19.280 back is to think about them holistically. Let's make men and women who make households that in

01:42:24.960 so far as it's possible in our day and age, it's very possible. You just have to get creative and

01:42:28.500 work hard, to build households that function more like households are supposed to function

01:42:33.400 in their interconnected, intergenerational, communal aspect across lots of them.

01:42:38.780 And then we will build economies over time and schools and institutions of education

01:42:44.440 that more perfectly fit with the telos of the man, the woman, the family, the community,

01:42:51.080 the church, the business, the economy, and all these things.

01:42:55.120 We're not there yet.

01:42:56.500 so right now we're going to be chart we're going to be building in the wreckage in a lot of ways

01:43:00.940 yeah so we have to be patient with each other and not like eat each other alive when someone says

01:43:05.660 it's about moral formation and someone says it's about jobs you kind of have to go it is yes you're

01:43:10.800 both saying a true thing and each it may be inadequately reckoning the importance of the

01:43:17.600 other but we're going to have to be building in wreckage something better than we're in the midst

01:43:24.000 stuff. Yeah. I think that's really helpful. Uh, we'll wrap up there. Uh, just a reminder,

01:43:28.360 we have the patron exclusive after hours. We'll be talking about some of the specifics with

01:43:32.560 St. Brennan's Christian classical Academy, going through some of the practical questions. Uh,

01:43:37.600 you got a lot of questions on Twitter as well. Yeah. Uh, on X. And, uh, so we'll be talking

01:43:42.560 about that. So stick around if you're not yet, you can sign up for Patreon, follow us. There's

01:43:46.660 a lot of exclusive content, including the Davis vault, uh, which is predominantly a show my son

01:43:51.700 does yeah we had a big hitter recently we had julius caesar dang uh and that was a big big thing

01:43:58.060 for people so a lot of people seem to like that one other thing worth mentioning here yeah a lot

01:44:02.600 of you guys saw us talking about this on twitter is that we've partnered with contra moondom cj

01:44:06.760 angle and andrew isker they do their friday podcast um they're gonna be doing a lot with us

01:44:10.800 and uh we're officially in partnership one of the things to look forward to that we're actually

01:44:16.080 helping produce is a Monday special show that they're going to be working on. It will be a

01:44:22.220 little bit before the first one comes out. But what we're going to do is have a season of this

01:44:26.300 show that's Contramundum repealing the 20th century. They're going to be going through

01:44:31.460 like exhaustively in classic Isker and CJ Angle style. All of the problems of the 20th century,

01:44:38.340 a lot of what we're talking about today has roots in some of the things they're going to be talking

01:44:42.400 about a really well-produced show and it's going to be a subscriber exclusive show for a while

01:44:48.720 and then when they get into the second season of that show which we're already talking about i

01:44:53.220 won't tell you the topic but it's going to be amazing um then we'll start releasing those

01:44:57.920 episodes publicly as well for everybody to check out so so go check out what they're doing at

01:45:02.460 contramundum um and they're and welcome them as an official now a new christendom partner new

01:45:08.640 christened press partner show um and uh please if you have a great podcast that you do yourself

01:45:15.220 don't send us an email about it because we probably don't have time just kidding

01:45:20.540 excited about that would encourage people as well a couple places you can go to

01:45:24.600 contramundumpod.com we can include links for that in the show notes or contramundum.supercast.com

01:45:32.680 this is uh going to be a really cool thing yeah we're excited lots of great content happy to

01:45:37.240 partner with those guys. Brian, I guess if you would just give us a charge and close us down.

01:45:41.040 Yeah, I would encourage listeners. A lot of you guys were building in the rumble and you're

01:45:45.840 feeling sometimes these competing instincts where you have this grand ideal that you want to build,

01:45:51.800 but it's really hard to map onto the real world. And I would just encourage all of you to keep

01:45:57.800 pushing and doing the next thing that's in front of you. You're not going to get it perfect,

01:46:02.200 but don't let like the inability to build the platonic ideal of the thing that you think should

01:46:08.340 exist keep you from starting. St. Brennan's Classical Christian Academy, we'll talk about

01:46:12.460 in the after hours, has been a work of what can we do today to take one more step closer to glory

01:46:19.520 and one step further away from the wreckage of the 20th century and all of the dysfunction that

01:46:25.060 surrounds us. How can we take one more step closer to making the world our sons and daughters

01:46:30.500 inherit better than the world that we stand in today. That's the attitude we need to be thinking

01:46:35.200 about as we build. Not this perfectionist, just waiting for the perfect moment and the perfect

01:46:42.120 opportunity. Just get to work. Get to work building. Get to work pouring yourself out for

01:46:48.100 your people. And may the Lord bless you in whatever you put your hand to.

01:47:00.500 Thank you.

01:47:30.500 Thank you.

01:48:00.500 Thank you.

01:48:30.500 We'll see you next time.

01:49:00.500 listener questions. Overall, it's a great time, so I'd encourage you to head over to

01:49:04.660 patreon.com slash thekingshall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content.

The King's Hall - March 14, 2025

Classical Christian Education’s Egalitarianism Problem

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