The Matt Walsh Show - Ep. 1856 - DEEP DIVE： How ＂Civil Asset Forfeiture＂ Is Robbing Americans Blind

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00:00:52.900 We've covered our fair share of extraordinary injustices on this show, but aside from the

00:00:58.560 scenarios where people died horrible deaths, nothing comes close to the sheer unbelievable

00:01:03.120 insanity of the absolute mockery of justice that we're about to talk about.

00:01:07.540 So this is a story that has obvious ramifications for your rights to own private property, which

00:01:12.640 is among the most important rights that you have. And because it's about to go to the Supreme Court,

00:01:17.820 you need to know about him. So we'll talk about today. In April of 2012, an Air Force veteran

00:01:24.020 named Kenneth Juppie, who was in his late 60s at the time, was running an air taxi company in

00:01:30.320 Alaska called Ken Air LLC. He made his living by transporting food and supplies to remote areas of

00:01:36.600 the state, as well as by ferrying tourists and other visitors around. And on this particular

00:01:41.700 occasion, a woman chartered his services to fly from Fairbanks to Beaver, where she planned to

00:01:47.780 celebrate her husband's birthday. It's a journey of a little over 100 miles. It typically takes

00:01:52.620 around 45 minutes to complete. Because there's no road linking Fairbanks and Beaver, the only

00:01:58.100 alternatives to flying are taking a boat via the Yukon River if it's summertime or dog sledding

00:02:04.640 in the winter. So the woman hired Juppie to fly her to Beaver in a 1969 Cessna 206 airplane,

00:02:11.180 which he owned. So it was a routine job, but everything changed for Kenneth when the Alaska

00:02:18.280 state troopers decided to search his plane before takeoff. During the inspection, the authorities

00:02:25.020 discovered to their horror that there were three cases of beer, 72 beers in total, in the plane's

00:02:31.640 cargo. That was a problem because Beaver is a so-called dry village, meaning it's illegal to

00:02:37.720 purchase or even possess alcohol there. And under Alaska law, if you attempt to transport alcohol

00:02:43.900 into a dry village like Beaver, you're committing a crime, even if the alcohol never gets there.

00:02:50.960 And there was some dispute about whether he was even aware of the fact that there was alcohol in

00:02:56.020 his plane. According to the government's version of events, one six-pack of beer was packed in a

00:03:00.120 grocery bag and would have been visible in plain view as Juppie was loading the plane. But according

00:03:06.240 to him, the beers were packed in closed boxes, and he never opened the boxes at any point.

00:03:11.800 Unfortunately, though, for him, a state trooper testified that he saw Juppie opening and closing

00:03:16.620 the boxes while loading the plane, and therefore the jury convicted him of the heinous crime of

00:03:21.560 attempting to knowingly send transport or bring less than 12 gallons of malt beverage

00:03:27.020 into the village of Beaver. Even though the beer never actually made it to Beaver, he was charged

00:03:33.360 with attempting to facilitate the transportation of the alcohol into this sacred town, and that's

00:03:40.160 all it took. As punishment, he was sentenced to 180 days in jail with 177 days suspended,

00:03:46.240 as well as a $3,000 fine with $1,500 suspended. He was also put on probation for three years.

00:03:53.580 Meanwhile, though, his company was hit with a $10,000 fine with $8,500 suspended, and you would

00:03:59.340 think that that would be enough, but it's actually more than enough for the minor violation that was

00:04:05.560 committed. But the court didn't stop there. And this is where the story takes a very sharp turn

00:04:09.580 into the absurd. Juppie and his company were also ordered to forfeit the airplane that was

00:04:14.960 supposedly used in the commission of this offense. That's because in Alaska, there's a law that

00:04:19.740 requires the forfeiture of any plane that's used in the commission of this particular crime. Now,

00:04:25.860 for some reason, boats get more protections than planes under this law, but not sure why that is,

00:04:30.020 but that's the way it is. So his airplane, which was valued at over $95,000 and which he depended

00:04:35.520 on for his livelihood, of course, was seized by the state. The police department wanted a new

00:04:42.060 aircraft, I guess. And so they just took his plane. And meanwhile, Juppie would have to find

00:04:46.180 another airplane. His company only had one other plane. So this was like stealing a man's horse in

00:04:50.800 the desert. You know, it's exactly the kind of cruel and unusual punishment the constitution

00:04:54.020 prohibits. Unfortunately, in this case, the plane was returned to him while the proceedings were

00:04:58.620 playing out, but that's not always what happens in these kinds of cases. So here's Juppie, now

00:05:04.660 83 years old, explaining what happened in his own words. This is from the Alaska news source.

00:05:10.400 But the whole case hinged around a six-pack of beer.

00:05:15.840 They found me guilty and fined me $1,500 and three days in jail.

00:05:28.960 And they took my airplane.

00:05:32.360 So a low misdemeanor, which created a maximum $10,000 fine, it cost me an airplane worth

00:05:46.580 almost, at that time, almost $100,000, but the whole thing hinges around that six-pack

00:05:53.440 of beer.

00:05:54.440 It was my intention to fight this thing to the very end until there was no fight left,

00:05:59.480 And I was aware of the Institute for Justice, and I contacted them, and they decided to take me and represent me in the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:06:09.820 And so they're very good attorneys, very good people.

00:06:15.480 And so that's where we are now.

00:06:18.400 It's important to me.

00:06:19.840 You know, I just don't want to give up, and I don't want to be falsely accused of something.

00:06:25.620 And there are a lot of inconsistencies in this thing.

00:06:28.600 I'm not going to go into that, but at this point, it's not only me, but it's the whole country.

00:06:38.160 There have been a lot of abuses of this, excessive fines and forfeitures over the years,

00:06:44.600 and it's time to kind of put a stop to it.

00:06:48.200 And so I'm not doing this for me personally now.

00:06:54.020 I'm doing it for the country, actually, is the way I feel.

00:06:58.600 because this will affect every law enforcement agency in the country.

00:07:08.060 They've abused that power for a lot of years now, and it's just getting worse and worse.

00:07:14.320 So if I can do that, I'll have done my job.

00:07:18.480 So as you heard, he appealed all the way to the Supreme Court of Alaska

00:07:22.440 because we still have something called the Constitution in this country, last I checked.

00:07:26.340 And according to the Constitution, quote, excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

00:07:34.920 This prohibition is also applied to the states under the 14th Amendment.

00:07:38.900 And by any rational definition, the seizure of $95,000 worth of personal property, especially for a fake crime like this, is clearly an excessive fine.

00:07:49.660 It's a punitive measure to seize property because of a criminal act.

00:07:54.620 And as Juppie just said, the maximum fine under Alaska law for transporting alcohol into a dry town like Beaver is only $10,000. But in this case, the government was getting nearly 10 times what that fine was supposed to be.

00:08:08.460 Nevertheless, in the single worst court decision that we've read recently, even worse than

00:08:14.480 many of the things Kentonji Brown-Jackson has produced, the Alaska Supreme Court upheld the

00:08:21.000 seizure of the airplane. The court found that it was not an excessive fine to steal this guy's

00:08:25.080 $95,000 airplane because he transported a few beers that didn't even belong to him.

00:08:30.780 This is one of those rulings where even if you don't have a law degree and even if you can't

00:08:34.280 read the English language. You know it's absurd on its face, but we'll go through it anyway because

00:08:38.120 it's truly a monument to human stupidity. And it marks an evolution in the government's ability 0.99

00:08:43.620 to steal your property, at least for the moment. The Alaska Supreme Court began by talking about

00:08:49.100 a 1998 Supreme Court case where a guy tried to fly out of LAX bound for Cyprus with $350,000

00:08:56.520 in cash. And he didn't declare any of it, even though he was supposed to fill out a form

00:09:01.200 indicating that he had more than $10,000. And as a result, the government seized all of his money,

00:09:07.120 even though they had no proof that any of it was involved in criminal activity.

00:09:11.140 In fact, they acknowledged that it wasn't. In a five to four ruling with the majority

00:09:15.180 opinion written by Clarence Thomas, the Supreme Court gave the guy his money back.

00:09:18.580 They determined that under the Constitution, it was a violation of the Eighth Amendment

00:09:22.360 to effectively fine someone $350,000 for such a minor offense. It was a pretty straightforward

00:09:29.460 ruling. And that logic naturally should apply to the case involving this Alaska pilot

00:09:34.460 and his beer. It wasn't even his beer, but and the plane. And the Alaska Supreme Court,

00:09:41.400 though, disagreed. They said that he had done something far more serious than the guy who

00:09:45.840 boarded the plane from LAX. This is a direct quote from the decision of the Alaska Supreme Court,

00:09:50.900 quote, while Juppie was convicted of only one instance of alcohol importation unconnected to

00:09:58.620 other criminal activity, the nature and extent of the crime is more serious. He knowingly transported

00:10:04.140 a six-pack of alcohol in plain view while acting in his professional capacity as the operator of an

00:10:09.740 air taxi company and the pilot of the airplane. This factor suggests the forfeiture of his airplane

00:10:15.620 is not grossly disproportional. So in the view of the Alaska Supreme Court, if you're a Bush pilot

00:10:21.940 who's transporting some woman's groceries, and those groceries include some beer, then you're

00:10:26.880 engaging in downright dastardly behavior. You're basically a hardened criminal, and they have every

00:10:32.180 right to throw the book at you. Now, in their opinion, it's much more serious to have beer in

00:10:36.840 your plane's cargo than it is to leave LAX with $350,000 in undeclared cash. Now, of course,

00:10:42.320 this is totally backwards. The guy who's flying to Cyprus with $350,000 in cash,

00:10:48.160 if we're being honest, is a much more likely candidate to be some kind of drug dealer or

00:10:53.480 some terrorist or criminal or something, as compared to the Bush pilot with some beer on

00:10:58.200 board. That's not to say the government has any right to take the $350,000, but just as a matter

00:11:03.640 of common sense, someone transporting that kind of money could theoretically be engaged in some

00:11:07.960 kind of hardcore criminal activity, at least hypothetically. The beer, on the other hand,

00:11:12.960 well, that's about as mundane as it gets. There are people in Alaska who drink 18 beers a day

00:11:18.500 and don't think anything of it, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.

00:11:22.040 What else is there to do? To be clear, there's no allegation that the pilot was drinking or

00:11:26.600 anything like that. He's just carrying the cargo. But to the Alaska Supreme Court, that's somehow

00:11:30.840 a very big deal. And in their opinion, the judges on this court make it clear that they're deferring

00:11:37.600 to the elected officials in Alaska who have apparently determined that alcohol consumption

00:11:40.960 is a plague on the state. Again, this is from the court's ruling. Quote, the nature and extent of

00:11:47.640 harm caused by Juppie's illegal alcohol smuggling is far greater. Alcohol abuse in rural Alaska

00:11:53.080 leads to increased crime disorders such as alcoholism, conditions such as fetal alcohol

00:11:57.620 spectrum disorder, and death, imposing substantial costs on public health and the administration of

00:12:02.780 justice. Within this context, it is clear that the illegal importation of even a six-pack of beer

00:12:07.560 causes grave societal harm. This factor strongly suggests that the forfeiture is not grossly

00:12:14.660 disproportional. Taking into consideration all the factors discussed above, we conclude that the

00:12:19.600 forfeiture of Juppie's airplane is not grossly disproportional to the gravity of his offense.

00:12:26.080 It's a six-pack. A six-pack arriving in a town is going to cause grave societal harm.

00:12:33.320 Social order will break down because of a six-pack of, you know, Heineken or something. I don't know

00:12:39.100 what kind of beer it was. So notice what's happening here. They're identifying all kinds

00:12:43.440 of problems that are caused by alcohol consumption in aggregate across the entire state. And they're

00:12:48.420 acting like this one guy is responsible for all of it. If that were the case, then maybe I could

00:12:54.400 see an argument for taking his plane. If he was single-handedly responsible for all the alcoholism

00:12:59.620 and fetal alcohol syndrome and DUIs and domestic abuse in the entire state, then sure, take his

00:13:05.600 plane. But in reality, he's not actually responsible for any of that. This is no different from taking

00:13:11.720 someone's car when they go five miles over the speed limit on the grounds that 40,000 people

00:13:16.640 die in car accidents every year. It's completely ridiculous. It's like reverse collective 0.97

00:13:22.380 punishment. They're going after one guy as if he somehow caused the actions of millions of other

00:13:27.880 people. That's not to downplay the idea that alcohol can cause problems, big problems sometimes,

00:13:33.980 but in general, there's a genuine hysteria about alcohol that's taken hold in parts of this

00:13:38.020 country, which we've talked about before on the show. In the span of about five years, the experts

00:13:42.600 went from telling us that red wine will save our lives or at least make us healthier to telling us

00:13:49.280 that a single drop of alcohol will increase our risk of cancer. There's no safe amount.

00:13:55.900 It's incoherent. We also talked about the book, The Alcoholic Republic and the central role that

00:14:00.740 alcohol played in the colonization of America and the founding United States. Simply a historical

00:14:05.220 fact that when our country was doing well, people were not deathly afraid of alcohol. So that's

00:14:10.080 something for the town of Beaver to consider, I suppose. In any event, whatever you think about

00:14:15.920 the modern day prohibition that towns like Beaver have enacted, there's no reason to destroy this

00:14:21.560 pilot's livelihood over it. The logic on display here contradicts many different cases from around

00:14:26.940 the country, including Timms versus Indiana, which was decided just a few years ago. In that case,

00:14:32.820 the state of Indiana tried to seize someone's $42,000 Land Rover SUV, saying it was used to

00:14:39.040 transport heroin, the guy purchased the car legally with funds that he acquired legitimately.

00:14:44.680 But ultimately, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that it would be grossly excessive to seize the

00:14:48.200 car, even though it was used to transport heroin, since the car cost $42,000 and the maximum fine

00:14:53.440 under the law was just $10,000. But in Alaska, they're doing things very differently. And now

00:14:58.460 group called the Institute for Justice is representing the pilot. Supreme Court has just

00:15:03.140 agreed to hear the case. The Institute for Justice, by the way, also says that it's in the process of

00:15:07.720 appealing a $437,000 fine the IRS imposed on a retired professor for failing to file a one-page

00:15:14.200 form informing the agency of his legal foreign bank account. So they're doing the Lord's work

00:15:20.800 as far as I'm concerned. And with this case, they have a real opportunity to change the law

00:15:25.080 on these asset seizures.

00:15:28.200 You know, the government simply cannot be allowed

00:15:29.960 to take your property

00:15:31.100 without any justification whatsoever.

00:15:34.180 That's what the government has been doing

00:15:35.220 all over the country for a very long time.

00:15:37.560 As the pilot put it, quote,

00:15:39.520 I'm thrilled that the U.S. Supreme Court

00:15:40.720 has agreed to hear this case

00:15:41.860 because this case isn't just about me

00:15:43.380 or my airplane anymore.

00:15:44.520 I'm in my 80s now.

00:15:46.300 I've been fighting this for over a decade

00:15:47.760 because I see it as my duty to ensure

00:15:49.240 that the Bill of Rights actually means something

00:15:51.240 in protecting against government overreach.

00:15:55.080 So to be clear about this, the case in Alaska is about criminal asset forfeiture, which is to say

00:16:00.040 the government taking your property after you've been convicted of a crime. But the Supreme Court's

00:16:05.400 ruling in this case also has implications for civil asset forfeiture, which is a concept that

00:16:10.760 maybe you've heard about. John Oliver did a viral show about it a little over a decade ago.

00:16:15.180 In civil asset forfeiture, the government doesn't even need to secure a criminal conviction. In fact,

00:16:19.420 it doesn't even matter if you've done anything wrong at all. Instead, the government can sue

00:16:24.960 your property directly if there's reason to believe that it was involved in criminal activity.

00:16:29.920 This is called an in-rem action. The burden of proof in these civil cases in federal courts is

00:16:35.500 called the preponderance of evidence. Sometimes the states have established their own standards,

00:16:39.640 but that's generally how it goes. And this means that the government must demonstrate a 50% or

00:16:44.460 greater likelihood, so let's call it 51%, that your property is substantially connected with

00:16:51.480 some criminal activity, meaning it was used to facilitate that activity. So the normal standard

00:16:57.400 of beyond a reasonable doubt, which applies during criminal trials, is not relevant here.

00:17:01.760 It's a very relaxed standard, and the government takes advantage of it all the time. I tell my

00:17:06.480 kids to finish what they start all the time. It's basically my entire parenting philosophy,

00:17:11.780 if I had to boil it down, and I repeat it until they're sick of hearing it. So I should probably

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00:18:17.300 The midterm elections are here, and if the DSA Democrats win, they'll push a radical socialist agenda and drown President Trump in endless investigations.

00:18:25.820 We've seen their playbook before. They tried impeaching him. They tried putting him in prison.

00:18:30.020 We tried everything.

00:18:30.940 Don't let them win.

00:18:32.220 Because if we lose, they'll undo everything our movement has fought for.

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00:18:40.000 Go to GOPVotes.org right now.

00:18:41.980 Find out when you can vote.

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00:18:48.020 early voting is already underway this week.

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00:18:57.580 Paid for by SLF PAC.

00:18:58.880 not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. There was a case out of Michigan where

00:19:03.840 a woman lost her car because her husband hired a prostitute while he was driving it, even though

00:19:08.680 the woman had no idea he was doing that. There was another case out of Massachusetts where the

00:19:12.720 government tried to confiscate an entire hotel because some of the guests were selling drugs,

00:19:17.740 although that particular attempt failed because the hotel didn't really facilitate the crimes.

00:19:22.700 There was a famous case along these lines in 2008 called United States v. Approximately 64,695 pounds of shark fins.

00:19:34.660 Yes, those were the two parties in the case.

00:19:37.580 So one party was the United States and the other party was approximately 64,695 pounds of shark fins.

00:19:47.580 The case was based on a situation developed off the coast of Guatemala in 2002.

00:19:52.700 when the Coast Guard stopped a U.S.-flagged vessel,

00:19:55.780 the Coast Guard found the shark fins on the ship,

00:19:58.220 even though there were no shark carcasses

00:20:00.420 to go along with the fins.

00:20:02.200 And it soon became clear the vessel was buying shark fins

00:20:05.860 from various fishing vessels,

00:20:07.040 presumably so that they could use the fins

00:20:09.020 to make shark fin soup,

00:20:10.740 which is apparently a delicacy in some parts of the world.

00:20:13.740 The problem is that under a very specific law

00:20:16.660 called the Shark Finning Prohibition Act,

00:20:19.520 it's illegal for fishing vessels

00:20:21.680 to buy shark fins in that way.

00:20:25.260 So the Coast Guard simply took the shark fins.

00:20:27.960 In case you're curious, the seizure was eventually overturned

00:20:30.060 because the vessel was determined not to be a fishing vessel

00:20:32.960 within the meaning of the law.

00:20:34.000 But even when you eventually get your property back,

00:20:36.360 it could take a very long time.

00:20:39.200 Here's another one from a few years ago.

00:20:41.900 The US Supreme Court will now consider a case

00:20:44.640 that involves civil asset forfeiture in Alabama.

00:20:48.100 The state seized a woman's car

00:20:49.800 after her son was arrested for marijuana possession during a traffic stop in Mobile County and it took

00:20:55.640 almost two years for the woman to get her car back. The question before the Supreme Court,

00:21:01.080 should there be a probable cause hearing prior to the state seizing your property?

00:21:06.280 On February 17, 2019, Satsuma Police pulled Tejon Cully over on I-65 and arrested him for

00:21:13.780 possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia. Ten days later, the state filed this complaint

00:21:19.860 seeking to seize the 9mm gun he had on him during the stop and the Nissan Altima he was driving.

00:21:26.200 Even though, according to the state's own complaint, the car belonged to his mother, Halima Cully, who was not charged with a crime.

00:21:33.260 Twenty months later, Judge Young-Peter ordered the state return the car to her.

00:21:38.500 That's crazy.

00:21:39.100 Dom Soto is a defense attorney who did not represent Cully,

00:21:42.420 but says the state overuses its ability to seize property connected to crimes before anyone is found guilty.

00:21:48.200 Well, the problem with that is pretrial taking. It gets all involved in excessive fines. There's a $15,000 car. Sometimes they take people's homes.

00:22:02.960 So the reason this woman was eventually able to get her car back, even though it was technically involved in the commission of a crime, is the innocent owner defense, which many states have.

00:22:11.460 And the idea is that she owned the car and she had no idea that it was being used to commit a crime.

00:22:17.140 But it took her nearly two years to get her car back.

00:22:20.660 And the Supreme Court eventually ruled that there was no problem with this delay.

00:22:24.400 So you didn't commit any crime, but the police can take your car for nearly two years anyway.

00:22:32.060 The court ruled that you're entitled to a timely final forfeiture hearing when the police take

00:22:37.620 your stuff, but you're not entitled to separate preliminary retention hearing to determine

00:22:41.660 whether the police can hold on to your car in the meantime while the process plays out.

00:22:47.040 This is the power of civil asset forfeiture.

00:22:50.140 It's prone to all kinds of abuse.

00:22:52.540 It has indeed been abused many, many times.

00:22:56.360 Now, that's not to say that civil asset forfeiture is the worst thing in the world.

00:22:59.260 It's used to seize assets from gangs and terrorists.

00:23:02.060 even where a criminal case would be difficult or impossible to build.

00:23:06.420 I mean, if the police discover, you know, an abandoned vehicle with drugs in it near the

00:23:10.420 Mexican border, obviously they should be able to seize it. So there's some nuance here that

00:23:16.040 gets lost, but the guardrails have been non-existent in recent years, which is why this

00:23:19.780 pilot in Alaska lost his plane. Again, yes, that was criminal asset forfeiture, not civil,

00:23:25.340 but both criminal and civil asset forfeiture are subject to the Eighth Amendment

00:23:28.680 when the forfeiture is punitive, which is to say when it's intended for the purpose of punishing

00:23:34.660 someone. Under our constitution, the government can't use any kind of forfeiture to exact an

00:23:40.940 excessive fine. And with this case out of Alaska, the Supreme Court has the opportunity to establish

00:23:46.020 some clear, bright line rules on where the boundaries are when it comes to determining

00:23:51.160 what fines are considered excessive. According to the decision by the Alaska Supreme Court,

00:23:55.800 it's not excessive to take someone's plane away for transporting a few beers because, in aggregate,

00:24:02.420 alcohol causes mass casualties and despair and whatever. And if that's the standard, then it

00:24:09.040 applies to civil asset forfeitures as well. But the Supreme Court can and should shut down this

00:24:15.520 standard, which is totally ridiculous. When you're determining what kind of punishment to give 0.54

00:24:20.160 someone, you should only look at what the person actually did without holding them responsible for

00:24:24.640 every other crime that's tangentially related, and that was committed by millions of other people

00:24:30.040 who have nothing to do with you. If the Supreme Court sets this standard, then it will apply to

00:24:34.340 both civil and criminal asset forfeiture and will end some of the worst abuses of civil asset

00:24:39.040 forfeiture, which have attracted a lot of attention over the past decade, and for good reason.

00:24:44.260 Already, we've seen a lot of progress in this regard. This is from Reuters back in 2024.

00:24:48.740 Quote, the U.S. Deputy Attorney General has suspended a controversial civil asset forfeiture

00:24:52.940 program by the DEA that targeted unsuspecting airline passengers and subjected them to

00:24:58.080 potentially unlawful seizures of cash from their bags. In one such example, a DEA office

00:25:03.500 tapped an airline employee as a confidential source who tipped off agents anytime a passenger

00:25:08.640 purchased a plane ticket within 48 hours of departure. Agents would use that last-minute

00:25:13.680 purchase as a justification to then approach those passengers and try to get the passengers

00:25:18.400 to agree to let them search their bags. In cases where the agents searched and seized cash,

00:25:22.220 the confidential source received a cut of the proceeds from the seizure.

00:25:28.220 This program, which is ridiculously corrupt, was terminated completely.

00:25:33.980 On one hand, you can argue that it's reasonable for the government to subject passengers to

00:25:38.460 texture screening if they buy a ticket within 48 hours of departure, or pay in cash or something

00:25:42.800 like that, maybe. But this program was very different. What's happening here is that after

00:25:49.800 passengers go through security, the DEA is dragging them off of their flights, potentially

00:25:54.580 making them miss the flight, unless they agree to waive their rights and have their property

00:25:58.480 searched. And they're not even looking for drugs or bombs for the most part. They're looking for

00:26:02.920 cash to confiscate. In practice, here's what this looks like. This was obtained by the same

00:26:09.060 Institute for Justice I mentioned earlier. The DEA was tipped off by an informant, and they're

00:26:15.040 looking for cash to confiscate, and here's how that goes. Watch.

00:26:19.120 Set your bag down, and then you can walk on the plane. You can do that.

00:26:21.960 No, no, no. You're not with the, what do you call it? I've seen these, like, videos.

00:26:26.380 You're not with the...

00:26:28.040 I'm the DEA. I'm the government.

00:26:30.560 That's great. Do you have, like, legal ability to search?

00:26:34.420 Yes, yes, yes.

00:26:35.060 I was in Cincinnati on a business trip, and I had gone sick the prior night,

00:26:38.540 so I had to rebook my flight to a last-minute flight back to New York.

00:26:42.380 He had basically just asked me for ID and to search, if he could search my bags.

00:26:47.260 And when I started to decline, he pulled out his badge and said that he was with the DEA.

00:26:51.580 I'd almost imagined that this had to be some kind of mix-up.

00:26:54.540 Oh, that's my, hey.

00:26:56.180 That's yours. Where's your bag at?

00:26:58.280 I don't consent to search, sir.

00:27:00.080 You don't have to consent. Where's your backpack at?

00:27:02.320 And so I thought the plane was going to take off because we were well past the kind of gate closing time at the time he boarded.

00:27:11.820 You want to watch the dog?

00:27:15.460 Yes, please.

00:27:15.800 You want to sit in your seat?

00:27:16.600 I would like to watch the dog.

00:27:17.540 Then come out.

00:27:18.900 Up to you, man.

00:27:24.240 Well, I followed him off the plane because he had my backpack, and I wasn't going to leave

00:27:28.940 an airport with my work laptop, my passport, a lot of my documentation from work, and so

00:27:34.320 I didn't have a choice.

00:27:36.060 The agent again insists that he does not need David's consent to take his bag.

00:27:41.600 But without probable cause of a crime, DEA agents cannot seize your belongings against your will. Period.

00:27:48.880 Okay, so when you buy a last minute ticket, we get alerts.

00:27:52.160 We come out to any and all flights, doesn't matter who you are, race, sex, nothing, right?

00:27:57.220 We come out and we talk to those people, which I tried to do to you, but you wouldn't allow me to do it.

00:28:00.900 Am I under suspicion of a crime right now? Do you have probable cause?

00:28:04.800 So, we have a lot of money and drugs going out of every airport to New York.

00:28:09.660 Okay.

00:28:10.160 It's an influx of it.

00:28:11.160 Okay.

00:28:11.660 Okay?

00:28:13.160 So that's my story.

00:28:14.160 Am I being suspected of a crime?

00:28:15.160 I just wanted to speak for it.

00:28:16.160 I don't know.

00:28:16.660 Do you have probable cause for a search?

00:28:18.160 I have probable cause for a dog to walk up and smell your bag.

00:28:20.160 Yes.

00:28:21.160 My lawyers are going to be taking this off with you.

00:28:24.160 You didn't take your bag off like I asked you to?

00:28:26.160 I don't have to.

00:28:27.160 I asked you if I was being detained and I can walk away if not.

00:28:30.160 You can, yes, but not your bag.

00:28:31.160 I have followed the constitution very vigorously.

00:28:33.160 I asked you to put your bag down.

00:28:34.160 You don't have rights to my bag.

00:28:35.660 I don't know who you are.

00:28:37.340 So the DEA agent, without any probable cause, has now seized this guy's property without his consent.

00:28:42.560 He tries to claim that he has probable cause because the passenger didn't immediately surrender his bag

00:28:48.260 and because airports are used for drug activity and because the guy bought the ticket within 48 hours of departure.

00:28:53.300 But that's not remotely sufficient for probable cause, and the passenger knows it.

00:28:59.340 So to end this standoff and to generate probable cause, the DEA brings in a dog.

00:29:04.840 And based on the footage, it looks like they signaled the dog to alert on the bag.

00:29:11.060 Now, we've all heard the radio ads about owing the IRS money.

00:29:14.760 They try to scare you and frighten you in the calling.

00:29:18.260 Well, tax relief advocates is different.

00:29:20.960 If you owe the IRS $5,000, $50,000, or $500,000, TRA has a solution to resolve your tax problem.

00:29:29.100 Don't lose hope.

00:29:30.060 TRA could reduce or even eliminate what you owe.

00:29:32.380 Their passion is taxes and helping regular people and businesses fix their IRS mess.

00:29:38.420 They have over 1,000 five-star Google reviews and an A-plus with the Better Business Bureau.

00:29:43.680 You don't have to be afraid of the IRS anymore.

00:29:45.360 Real tax relief programs are available that can give you a fresh start, so don't wait.

00:29:49.740 Go to TRA.com.

00:29:51.160 It's TRA.com or call 800-575-1753.

00:29:56.240 Again, that's 800-575-1753.

00:29:59.580 tax relief advocates, real solutions for real people. Watch this closely here.

00:30:06.280 So I was waiting by the jeopardy for about five minutes. And I remember seeing the dog handler

00:30:10.180 pop up through one of the kind of airport gates. And at first, you know, he pointed the dog towards

00:30:15.700 my bag and the dog took a spell and just ran straight past it. A few seconds later, he started

00:30:21.500 clicking his fingers and the dog started coming back. And I saw him basically gesture at my bag.

00:30:29.580 You see that? You got it recorded. Don't edit that part out of the video either.

00:30:53.580 You alerted on your bag. Now this is your legal right. You can allow us to look at it or you can tell me no and

00:30:59.580 We can write a search warrant.

00:31:01.140 We can apply for one.

00:31:02.040 I don't know if we get one or not, but we'll apply for one.

00:31:03.980 I don't consent to be searched.

00:31:05.500 So you don't want us to search your bag either?

00:31:06.760 I don't consent to be searched.

00:31:08.100 Okay.

00:31:08.680 All right.

00:31:09.000 Well, then we've got to take your bag back.

00:31:10.200 So do you want to sit with us at the PD while we try to get a warrant on your bag today?

00:31:14.380 What do you want to do?

00:31:16.540 I don't consent to be searched, sir.

00:31:18.000 I'm sorry.

00:31:18.320 With the questionable dog alert, the agent now claims that he can easily get a warrant

00:31:23.460 to search the bag.

00:31:25.380 David continues to refuse to consent to a search.

00:31:29.020 We know our law.

00:31:29.760 We know what we're doing out here and what we can and cannot do.

00:31:32.540 It's a piece of paper that will literally stay with us.

00:31:34.920 It just says that you're allowing us to search it.

00:31:36.660 If you want to sign your name that says that we can search it, which I don't know why it's so difficult,

00:31:40.760 we'll search it if not forget it.

00:31:42.540 It's the same thing I just told you to my group.

00:31:44.820 Think about it for a minute.

00:31:46.500 I know you're irritated.

00:31:47.980 I have a feeling.

00:31:49.000 I know you're annoyed. 0.94

00:31:50.840 And I'm annoyed, too, that you caused such a scene for something so silly.

00:31:54.080 The law actually doesn't distinguish between bodily, property.

00:31:56.640 You know, I'm being detained now because my bag isn't taking off my property.

00:32:00.220 You're not out in the public.

00:32:01.220 You're in an airport.

00:32:02.600 This is a public area for what it's worth.

00:32:05.240 Your bags are not.

00:32:07.420 They're different than your person.

00:32:09.040 Okay.

00:32:09.960 There's a difference.

00:32:12.140 Now, I'm sure there are some canine handlers and police officers who are watching the show right now,

00:32:16.260 and they'll have feedback on whether this looked like an appropriate way to handle the situation or not.

00:32:19.980 But from what I understand, the appropriate procedure is for the handler to walk the dog around the general area of the object.

00:32:29.080 In this case, that's what happened initially.

00:32:31.920 And the dog walked past the object without alerting.

00:32:34.880 Then the handler pointed directly at the bag while making some kind of noise with his mouth, a kissy noise, as they described it.

00:32:41.760 And at that point, the dog alerted on the bag.

00:32:43.800 It looks like a very unscientific, fraudulent process, and it's confusing as well because, as you heard, the DEA agents tell the guy to record the dog with their phone.

00:32:54.860 They don't see any problem with what they did.

00:32:57.060 They seem convinced that, based on this dog's behavior, which seems designed to appease his handler more than anything else, that they can easily get a judge to sign a search warrant for the bag.

00:33:05.640 And in the meantime, this guy will miss his flight.

00:33:08.840 It's enough to make you think, you know, all these drug-sniffing dog tests should be banned

00:33:12.820 completely since it's easy to abuse, at least the ones that are in the airport, I mean,

00:33:17.920 especially if someone isn't recording with the video. They're like lie detector tests. They're

00:33:22.100 simply no way to tell if the handler is sending some kind of coded message to the dog.

00:33:27.220 It reminds me of the story of Clever Hands, a German horse who made the rounds in the early

00:33:33.740 20th century, impressing everybody with his ability to do arithmetic. So they might ask the

00:33:39.220 horse, what's three times two? And the horse would tap its hooves six times and the crowd would go

00:33:44.260 wild. So a little bit of like a Charlotte's Web thing, but with a horse. A government commission

00:33:49.920 apparently investigated this and couldn't discover any fraud. And even when the horse was separated

00:33:54.800 from his handler and someone else was asking the question, the horse got the question right.

00:33:58.760 But it turns out, of course, that the horse was simply reading body language. If the handler

00:34:02.440 didn't know the right answer, if the horse couldn't see the handler, the horse would get

00:34:06.900 almost every question wrong. Its accuracy rate would drop from 89% to around 6%. So the horse

00:34:13.680 was paying very close attention to the handler's body language and the reaction of the crowd,

00:34:18.360 which would relax when he got the right number of hoof stumps. So that's all it was.

00:34:24.960 Still a really smart horse, though. We'll give him that. Drug-detecting dogs can work the same

00:34:29.960 way. I'm not denying that these dogs can be accurate, but if the handlers want to use the

00:34:33.980 dog as a pretext to conduct a search, if they want the dog to alert, that's very easy to engineer,

00:34:42.220 to get the dog to comply, and that's what we're seeing here. How often does that happen? How often

00:34:48.300 does it happen in airports? One of the problems with asset forfeiture in practice is that it

00:34:53.140 leads to these kinds of abuses. When the government invokes this doctrine, some very absurd scenarios

00:34:58.700 can result. People lose their airplane over some beer. And in other cases, people get pulled off

00:35:05.200 airplanes because they bought their ticket at the last minute and the ticket agents want a cut of

00:35:10.640 any cash they might be carrying. The incentive structure is perverse at a fundamental level.

00:35:16.840 It's stacked in favor of the government's right to take your property when the balance of power

00:35:22.040 under our constitution should be on your side. And the fact that we're seeing this abuse of power

00:35:27.980 in Alaska to punish a guy for transporting some beer is insane. This is a news report from the

00:35:34.980 1980s where people reacted to laws against drinking while driving. Watch. Any attempt to

00:35:41.960 restrict drinking and driving here is viewed by some as downright undemocratic. It's kind of

00:35:47.020 getting common when a fellow can't put in a hard day's work, put in 11, 12 hours a day,

00:35:51.520 and then get in your truck and at least run one or two beers. They're making it laws where you

00:35:56.340 can't drink when you want to. You have to wear a seatbelt when you're driving. And pretty soon

00:36:03.260 we're going to become this country. People used to think that DUI laws were anti-American.

00:36:09.480 And they reacted the same way, by the way, to seatbelt laws. And now they'll take away

00:36:14.440 everything you own in Alaska if you're caught anywhere near a sealed case of beer. That's

00:36:18.560 40 years of progress for you in one video. People used to have a much more expansive view of their

00:36:24.380 own freedom, much more expansive. And in turn, at least nominally, the government used to respect

00:36:32.060 your property rights, to some degree, because they had to. But they just don't anymore.

00:36:39.360 This is a problem that's persisted for a very long time. And now, after many years of increasingly

00:36:43.580 bizarre and unconstitutional scenarios, it could finally be ending. In December, the Supreme Court

00:36:47.960 is going to hear arguments in the Alaska case. Decision will likely be made by the middle of

00:36:52.220 next year, we'll finally learn straight from the high court whether or not the government can steal

00:36:56.760 $95,000 from you because you put a few cans of beer in your airplane. Under our Constitution,

00:37:02.860 we all know the government can't do that, but as to the much narrower question of whether five

00:37:07.020 justices on the Supreme Court still believe the Constitution applies to your property,

00:37:12.200 as to the question of whether you can rely on the judicial system to protect the property you've

00:37:16.260 spent your whole life working for, well, that's something that we'll find out in just a few months.

00:37:22.220 these are rights and privileges that many of us took for granted, but we simply can't do that

00:37:27.420 anymore. This is one of the main reasons we're releasing our latest documentary, The Real History

00:37:31.260 of Communism, for free on YouTube on Friday. It's a deeply researched narrative of the Russian

00:37:36.380 revolution and how quickly the Bolsheviks took power. It can happen much faster than you think,

00:37:42.440 like we talked about yesterday. And that's why you should watch that on Friday. And then when

00:37:47.520 you're done watching that, The Daily Wire has a new movie also related to this coming out on

00:37:52.220 November 11th, set in Stalinist Russia called Confession. Now, I saw this movie a couple of

00:37:57.760 months ago, and I can tell you genuinely, it's a very well-made, serious piece of art with easily

00:38:03.340 far and away the most impressive cast ever assembled for a quote-unquote conservative film.

00:38:10.420 In fact, I really wouldn't call it a conservative film at all. It does have an important message,

00:38:13.820 a conservative message. But this is a movie that is trying to be a good film, not just a good

00:38:18.880 conservative film, which is what we need to be doing, in my opinion. And I think it succeeds.

00:38:24.320 The cast includes Rob Lowe, who does tremendous work, James Franco, who will surprise you in the

00:38:30.640 villain role. Also, Nick Nolte's in it, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Emile Hirsch, who I think does a

00:38:37.520 fantastic job, many others. Even the small roles have recognizable and talented actors like Dean

00:38:43.220 norris uh appears in kind of a cameo role probably my favorite cameo performance in the film

00:38:48.040 and we'll end the show today uh with the trailer and take a look and we'll see you tomorrow godspeed

00:39:13.220 Professor.

00:39:28.660 Let me help!

00:39:36.780 You will remember your duty.

00:39:38.840 This isn't heroism! 1.00

00:39:40.780 You useless sod. 1.00

00:39:42.020 You sit there and shake because you're dependent on drink. 1.00

00:39:44.660 You're sick as all over you. 0.64

00:39:47.620 Have you ever seen a child starve to death, Professor? 1.00

00:39:52.980 No.

00:39:53.960 I have.

00:40:00.340 Now, we've all heard the radio ads about owing the IRS money.

00:40:04.480 They try to scare you and frighten you in the calling.

00:40:07.940 Well, tax relief advocates is different.

00:40:10.400 If you owe the IRS $5,000, $50,000, or $500,000,

00:40:15.560 TRA has a solution to resolve your tax problem.

00:40:18.820 Don't lose hope.

00:40:19.780 TRA could reduce or even eliminate what you owe.

00:40:22.420 Their passion is taxes and helping regular people and businesses fix their IRS mess.

00:40:28.140 They have over 1,000 five-star Google reviews and an A-plus with the Better Business Bureau.

00:40:33.420 You don't have to be afraid of the IRS anymore.

00:40:35.080 Real tax relief programs are available that can give you a fresh start, so don't wait.

00:40:39.340 Go to TRA.com, it's TRA.com, or call 800-575-1753.

00:40:45.960 Again, that's 800-575-1753.

00:40:49.460 Tax relief advocates, real solutions for real people.

00:40:54.400 My rec league goalie says he plays for the love of the game.

00:40:58.260 You gave up six goals last week, Steve.

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00:41:06.200 and can cash out at any time before the game ends.

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The Matt Walsh Show - October 14, 2026

Ep. 1856 - DEEP DIVE： How ＂Civil Asset Forfeiture＂ Is Robbing Americans Blind

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