The Megyn Kelly Show - Every Key Moment From the Lindsay Clancy Trial, Blake Lively's Final Humiliation, and Brian Entin's Dispatch From Clancy Courtroom ｜ Ep. 1386

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00:00:38.320 ConnexOntario.ca. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius

00:00:44.200 XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn

00:00:55.660 Kelly show and happy Wednesday coming up later. Got some thoughts on Melissa Gilbert trying to

00:01:02.340 rush into the Hayden Panettiere story with her torch talking about how we really need to protect

00:01:10.060 young women in Hollywood. Tell it to your pervert husband. This is unbelievable. This is like a

00:01:16.860 self. This is an attempt to like rehabilitate herself and her reputation because she was on

00:01:23.400 the phone with the police when they were laying out what the allegations were against her husband.

00:01:28.620 This is in a separate case, accusing him of being a possible pedophile. She knew all about it,

00:01:35.520 and yet she ran out to the public airwaves and tried to cloak herself in glory as somebody who

00:01:39.760 stands up for children under threat in Hollywood. Now she's doing it again. Since that moment,

00:01:45.180 we've had multiple women come forward and accuse her husband of Me Too-ing them when they were

00:01:51.960 very young and in his trailer or at his theater over and over and over. And now she wants to be

00:01:59.720 the one to step in and say, I will lead it. I will lead the turnaround in Hollywood as we now

00:02:04.420 protect young women in Hollywood. Please sit this one out. No one needs you, Melissa Gilbert. Why

00:02:11.220 don't you worry about your own family's problems? All right, we'll get to her in the next hour.

00:02:16.820 Plus, we will also be joined by Brian Enten of News Nation, who will be giving us the latest

00:02:21.740 on what's happening in court today

00:02:23.500 when it comes to this Lindsey Clancy trial.

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00:03:20.440 I wanted to take the first hour today to look at what has happened during this case, because I think there are a lot of people who have very strong feelings about it and who are wondering why it's dominating the national conversation and who don't quite know what to make of it.

00:03:36.260 Because you've got two sides that are diametrically opposed on what level of culpability should be handed down to this woman, criminally speaking, legally speaking, who killed all three of her children.

00:03:49.200 And it is complicated. It is complicated. I mean, let me start with this. Jeffrey Dahmer

00:03:56.820 murdered many people, young boys and men, and viewer warning, cannibalized them. Was it an

00:04:07.300 extremely sick, psychotic person who was torturing people before he killed them? I'm not going to get

00:04:15.460 into the details because it's too dark. But suffice it to say, he tried to zombify them

00:04:21.860 while they were still alive so they could stay with him forever and then would cannibalize them

00:04:27.680 after killing them. This is a seriously, seriously effed up person. If anybody would ever meet the

00:04:35.160 definition of legally insane, it should be somebody like a Jeffrey Dahmer. Did that happen?

00:04:39.940 No, that was rejected. The insanity defense in his case there, like here, the debate was not,

00:04:47.280 will this person go free? It was, will he go to the mental facility or will he go

00:04:52.700 to the lockup facility, the jail facility? And in that case, the jury said, we reject

00:05:00.060 the insanity defense. We find him guilty and he went to jail and didn't end well for him there.

00:05:06.080 A jury rejected the insanity defense of Jeffrey Dahmer.

00:05:13.900 I'm sorry, but Lindsay Clancy is far closer to sane than Jeffrey Dahmer was, but she's trying the same defense.

00:05:23.800 She's saying that she was so out of her mind she wasn't in control or able to tell right from wrong

00:05:31.020 when she committed this heinous crime, which was the strangulation death of her three young

00:05:36.980 children, five, three, and eight months. And the whole trial has been about whether she suffered

00:05:48.760 from postpartum depression and issues brought on by her attempt to use medication like SSRIs,

00:05:57.720 or whether this was something much more serious, which is psychosis.

00:06:04.540 Psychosis brought on by the fact that she had had a baby eight months earlier

00:06:08.380 and or brought on by the serious medications that were prescribed to her

00:06:15.040 as she dealt with her depression post the birth of her third child.

00:06:19.520 And there are real problems in accepting this psychosis claim that she's making.

00:06:26.360 But even if you accept it, that doesn't necessarily mean we are in a place where she is unable to tell right from wrong or have logical reasoned thinking or plan with malice of forethought the death of her children.

00:06:43.920 I personally am not convinced that she suffered from postpartum psychosis or any psychosis at all.

00:06:50.480 But even if she did, I don't think that this case is one for a not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect.

00:07:00.180 I don't. There's too much ordered behavior and thinking around these crimes.

00:07:06.920 This is not somebody who's clearly out of her mind.

00:07:09.200 I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer, again, zombifying his victims.

00:07:13.340 Nope, not available to you.

00:07:15.340 But Lindsey Clancy is going to be found not guilty by reason of disease or mental defect?

00:07:21.260 I don't think so.

00:07:22.760 And I'll tell you one of the reasons why people are having such a hard time finding that mental

00:07:29.120 clarity.

00:07:30.460 I mean, it makes sense to me.

00:07:31.320 I get it, and I completely give them this point, that she was jumping up and down looking for help.

00:07:42.020 You know, what happened to Lindsay Clancy wasn't actually her fault, in the same way mental illness is really not the fault of anybody to whom it happens.

00:07:50.680 You know, it can be a chemical thing, it can be a disease thing, it can be inherited or hereditary, genetic in some way.

00:07:59.020 So it's not, quote, her fault in that way.

00:08:02.500 And so people have empathy for her because she was, by all accounts, a loving mother prior to a few months after her third child was born.

00:08:14.680 And then things started to go downhill.

00:08:18.100 Her husband, Patrick, now ex-husband, testified in this trial about the fact that she had her first child, Cora, and that delivery went okay.

00:08:28.360 She was a, she too was a labor and delivery nurse, just like her mother-in-law.

00:08:35.320 And she stayed for a maternity leave and then she went back to work.

00:08:39.720 And he said it was very tough on her to go back to work on the first two children.

00:08:44.540 She did not go back on the third child, but that the first two were very tough on her.

00:08:48.460 She had like an intense concern, worry, fear even of leaving the children.

00:08:56.200 And, you know, look, I think every working mom can relate to a feeling of, you know,

00:09:02.380 dread or panic or concern, at least, in going back to work.

00:09:07.200 I mean, I'm as professional a woman as they come, and I definitely had serious feelings

00:09:13.440 of sadness in going back to work and leaving my children.

00:09:16.260 You know, they need you.

00:09:17.960 And ultimately, it's why I left Fox.

00:09:20.220 That's the main reason, so that I could be with them more.

00:09:22.980 but it's literally like a God-given maternal instinct

00:09:27.020 to wanna see more of your children

00:09:28.680 and that's understandable

00:09:29.600 and if you are one of those people

00:09:30.740 who's very lucky enough like I am

00:09:32.760 to be able to see your children

00:09:34.540 and help pay the bills

00:09:36.500 and have a thriving career

00:09:37.740 where you as a professional

00:09:39.500 wanna feel interested

00:09:42.000 and just sort of lit up,

00:09:45.820 lit up by your job,

00:09:47.020 by the excitement of it.

00:09:48.460 This job makes me feel that all the time

00:09:50.600 and my family loves that it does that for me

00:09:52.680 then god bless you you then you have you know you've you have it all you do have it all and

00:09:58.120 that's how i feel um just being able to work in news is a privilege it's exciting it's interesting

00:10:04.620 you meet so many fascinating characters you help drive the the narrative around this the country's

00:10:10.440 biggest stories i love it all and i've loved my colleagues in the news as well so for me it was

00:10:15.260 a no-brainer that i really did want to come back to work but there's nothing you love as much as

00:10:20.080 your children. So for me, the perfect balance was to find a way to do both. And thank God I've been

00:10:26.260 able to do that. Now, for a lot of mothers, it's not possible. And I think for this mother, she was

00:10:32.360 so, so torn up about going back to the office, like maybe some of that mental struggle was already

00:10:39.100 kicking in, that it became like an obsessive thing for her. So she did go back after Cora,

00:10:45.660 her oldest. Then she had her middle child and he was difficult. She had a tough time with Dawson

00:10:54.740 and the birth was very difficult. I was thinking about something. In today's day and age,

00:11:02.880 they shame mothers no matter what choice they make. Whatever. You have IVF, they'll shame you

00:11:10.680 for that. Now you have C-section, they'll shame you for that. Now you, whatever, you, you don't,

00:11:15.620 you have a, an epidural, they'll shame you for that. Like the crazies will make, will judge

00:11:20.120 your mothering from the time of conception forward. Unfortunately, this is just how life is.

00:11:28.340 But she had a difficult birth with Dawson because according to the husband, he was in the breach

00:11:35.320 position and it was a very difficult labor and she had significant tearing and so on.

00:11:40.500 Now, if she had just made the decision with her OB to have a C-section prior to delivering this

00:11:45.040 child, there's a community of people that'd be shaming her for that. No, that's not the

00:11:49.340 healthiest thing for the baby. How dare you? Why didn't like, there's a weird collection of women

00:11:53.180 that don't think your baby counts if you don't have him or her vaginally. It's very strange.

00:11:58.340 What do you, I still have a child. I carried a child. I made a child. I carried a child and I

00:12:04.080 delivered child, stay the fuck out of it. Okay. So anyway, she gives birth to the second child,

00:12:10.560 Dawson, and he's a difficult one. According to her account was a difficult birth and he remained

00:12:17.080 a difficult child. Um, he's the one she posted on Facebook about writing about just how tough he was.

00:12:24.120 Uh, and that's, that's tough on a young mother. He's got two kids. She's mostly the primary

00:12:30.680 caregiver, although it does seem the husband was a loving father. And then they had a third child,

00:12:35.780 which I have to say was not a good idea for this family because she doesn't seem like she was ever

00:12:41.960 really together. I mean, she just seems like she was starting to teeter in some ways, even before

00:12:50.020 the birth of Callum, her third baby. And then she had him. This crime happened in January of 2023.

00:12:56.180 Callum was born the previous summer. And what the experts have said in this trial is that

00:13:02.640 postpartum depression and its evil cousin, postpartum psychosis, is really not something

00:13:10.840 that generally happens for eight months after. Postpartum psychosis is generally, they've

00:13:17.780 testified, around a three-month thing at most. You have it in the intense hormonal experience

00:13:25.920 that women have post birth. And so that's one of the reasons people have been skeptical of her

00:13:31.780 claim that she was psychotic at the time she killed the children. That plus in all of her

00:13:37.540 interactions with the doctors and the medical profession, she never said she was hearing voices

00:13:42.240 ever, ever prior to killing her kids. She did say that she was having thoughts of harming the

00:13:51.280 children, to her husband and to her mother, at least one time that those other two have testified

00:13:57.420 to. Lindsay hasn't testified, but the husband and her mother have both testified. She said that.

00:14:02.620 And then when she was asked, are you, do you have a plan to harm them or yourself? She said, no.

00:14:09.460 And she was asked by the husband, do you, do you feel that you can't be alone with them? And she

00:14:15.200 said no, no. She was just voicing that she'd had a thought of hurting them. Now, look,

00:14:21.160 if my spouse said I'm having thoughts of hurting the children, he would never be alone with them

00:14:27.460 again until I was 100% convinced he was past all that thinking. For this family, I mean,

00:14:34.460 it's tough to really point the finger at the father because, boy, he paid the ultimate price

00:14:38.000 for that mistake. But she never told anybody she was hearing voices in the way a schizophrenic does

00:14:45.660 or somebody who's psychotic may. That was not told to anybody until she woke up in the hospital.

00:14:53.820 And for the first time, this was a new narrative. She's chained to the bed and understands very well

00:15:01.160 she's lived through her suicide attempt and she may never see the light of day again

00:15:05.700 because her three children were not so lucky in living through her attempted destruction.

00:15:13.220 So the best thing going for Lindsay Clancy is that she has a great lawyer. His name is Kevin

00:15:20.660 Reddington. They're calling him Red. Her weird fans, her sycophant fans who somehow are mistaking

00:15:27.280 this trial as like a referendum on whether postpartum depression is real. Hello, it is.

00:15:32.900 everybody knows that you and your problems are not on trial ladies though you have significant

00:15:38.240 ones and you really ought to look into them um this is about whether she had the capacity to

00:15:45.640 understand right from wrong in the moment she killed those children and i i think the prosecution

00:15:50.500 though they are absolutely losing the likability contest the the ada trying this case is odd and

00:16:00.020 not relatable and nowhere near as likable as Kevin Reddington, which is a factor. It's a factor for

00:16:07.200 sure. The jury's bonding much more with defense counsel in my estimation than they are with the

00:16:11.800 ADA. That's bad for the prosecution, but she is putting on, in my view, the case she needs to put

00:16:18.660 on. And her last two rebuttal witnesses, though the one alienated the judge and got scolded for

00:16:25.660 not answering the questions, which is not great. You don't want your witness to show to the jury

00:16:31.320 that he's on the other side of the judge, that the judge, who's like their daddy, the jurors

00:16:36.940 see the judge as like their daddy, their boss, their godfather, their protector. We get to the

00:16:42.460 point where that judge is telegraphing. He doesn't like this witness, this Dr. Avram Mack. That's not

00:16:46.880 great. You don't love that as the prosecutor, but she called these two witnesses in rebuttal

00:16:51.580 as the last thing. She's got the burden of proof. And so she gets the first word and the last word.

00:16:59.080 And so she got the rebuttal case and she put on her case in chief. She rested. The defense put

00:17:03.860 on its case. They rested. And then she put on her rebuttal witnesses, including these two

00:17:09.260 psychological experts. And I think one was a psychologist, one was a psychiatrist.

00:17:13.660 And they had examined Lindsay, though not until three years after the crime.

00:17:18.800 But they both examined her and they both said, this is not somebody who suffered from psychosis.

00:17:24.380 And this is somebody who had ordered thinking and understood what she was doing was wrong.

00:17:32.560 One addressed the defense's argument that this was altruistic filicide.

00:17:41.740 Meaning she killed the children because she did it out of, in her head, out of love.

00:17:48.800 She wasn't some homicidal maniac killing because killing's fun

00:17:51.980 or she grew to hate the children.

00:17:54.540 It was, I'm going to kill myself and they can't live without me

00:17:58.960 and shouldn't live without me.

00:18:00.940 So I'm going to take care of them in heaven.

00:18:04.200 This is something put out there by the defense.

00:18:06.420 And the testimony and rebuttal was, you know, okay,

00:18:13.500 But that's that's not somebody who that's not disordered thinking. It's it's a belief. That's that's a thought in your own head that your kids will be better off dead if you're dead.

00:18:28.260 That is not mental insanity. That's a that's a deranged thought. I mean, it's not it's not something that, you know, your average person would think, but it doesn't excuse you from responsibility for the crime.

00:18:43.660 And we had a members only Q&A with the people who have joined our YouTube, youtube.com slash

00:18:52.280 Megan Kelly members only on Monday night. It was actually very fun. We did it at nine o'clock and

00:18:56.680 so many of you joined and we had great exchanges about the MK Confidential series we've been doing

00:19:00.840 on crimes. And we talked about this, but this, we just featured two weeks ago, the case of John

00:19:06.660 List, who was a family annihilator in New Jersey. And John List in 1971 killed his wife. He shot her

00:19:15.740 in the head. He went upstairs to the third floor, killed his mother, who was living with them,

00:19:20.400 shot her in the face, then waited until the school day was over. And as his children started

00:19:26.780 coming home, killed each of them one by one. And one of the main things that was driving him when

00:19:33.160 he was killing the children was, well, now I've killed their mother, so they have to go. Like,

00:19:37.840 I can't let them come in and find their dead mother and their dead grandmother and let them

00:19:42.220 live. That's too cruel. So I have to kill them, and I have to kill them right away with one shot

00:19:45.700 to the head so that they don't know that they're being killed. And he worried about the family's

00:19:52.320 finances. He had lost his job, and he hadn't told anybody, and he couldn't keep a job because he was

00:19:56.800 a deranged psychopath. But he couldn't keep a job, and he kept losing jobs, so he was going to lose

00:20:01.220 potentially the house they were living in, which was sort of lavish. They were going to lose

00:20:06.600 status. His daughter had become an actress, an aspiring actress. She's only 16, but she was

00:20:14.500 trying her hand at acting, not quite 16. And he thought that was some sort of debauchery

00:20:21.620 or alleged devil worship. He was worried about her soul. So he killed his children out of

00:20:28.860 altruistic filicide. And though he got away with his crime for some 18 years, he created a new

00:20:35.980 identity. You got to go back and listen to the whole series. It's actually really compelling.

00:20:39.860 It's available on our YouTube feed and on our podcast feed now. But he got away with it for

00:20:45.180 18 years until he was featured on America's Most Wanted with John Walsh. And then he got caught

00:20:49.060 under a new name in a new town with a new family. And he tried this. He tried this at his defense.

00:20:57.280 And really, though I don't think he used those words,

00:21:00.520 argued altruistic filicide.

00:21:02.680 He did not kill his family out of hate.

00:21:04.600 He did not hate his family.

00:21:05.460 He loved them.

00:21:06.600 He killed his family out of some weird sense of obligation and love

00:21:10.460 and to, quote, spare them.

00:21:12.740 Spare them the shame of less money, less prestige,

00:21:17.440 the daughter who was on a bad path, and so on,

00:21:20.540 and thought they would go to be with God.

00:21:23.240 He wanted them to be with God.

00:21:25.180 Same thing.

00:21:26.300 you know, different dressing, but same thing. And it was soundly rejected by a jury. And he

00:21:33.860 was sent off to prison for the remainder of his life, which I think is what should happen to

00:21:37.460 Lindsay Clancy. There's a lot of testimony about her clear thinking. And don't mistake,

00:21:46.340 Like, mental insanity can be present without legal insanity being found by a jury.

00:21:57.200 I mean, to some extent, anybody who murders another person, unless it's like, you know, you murdered their child, you did something like that, you wouldn't look at that father or mother and say, that's an insane person.

00:22:07.300 But murder, murder for, you know, petty reasons always feels at a minimum irrational and in many cases, if not most, insane, like an insane choice.

00:22:21.320 You know what this is going to do.

00:22:22.620 You're going to end somebody else's life.

00:22:23.980 You're going to play God and you're probably going to sentence yourself to a death sentence of some sort, whether it's the death of your life of freedom or your actual death in states that have the death penalty.

00:22:36.980 So, you know, there's a lot of mentally deranged people out there who do not get a legal insanity finding by a jury because while it's nuts to kill somebody, they weren't found incapable of understanding the wrongness of their actions in the moment.

00:22:57.100 And I think too many people are conflating those things in this case when they talk about Lindsay Clancy.

00:23:02.200 You can have empathy for her as somebody who was a good mom and was leading a good life, which wasn't out there committing crime serially or even once before.

00:23:13.480 But something happened to Lindsay Clancy.

00:23:15.740 I, in listening to the testimony, saw a gentle deterioration after the first child.

00:23:20.600 But after Callum was born, it was precipitous.

00:23:24.460 And you could see as we got into the fall of 2022 that she really started to go downhill.

00:23:31.420 No, she couldn't sleep.

00:23:32.700 She was obsessed with his sleep schedule.

00:23:34.920 She was trying to put him on a sleep schedule

00:23:38.220 where you let the baby cry through the night

00:23:41.620 to get him to sleep.

00:23:43.520 Now everybody's like, oh, that's a cruel thing to do.

00:23:45.800 Oh, you know what?

00:23:46.420 I did it with my kids literally one night.

00:23:49.400 They cried.

00:23:50.120 I didn't go get them.

00:23:50.940 It wasn't an hour-long cry.

00:23:51.960 It was like 20 minutes.

00:23:53.880 They went back to sleep.

00:23:55.080 They were sleep-trained after that.

00:23:56.460 I was giving them the gift of sleep.

00:23:58.180 All three of them to this day are great sleepers.

00:24:01.420 I think because we did that, because we gave them one night wait until they were a little older.

00:24:06.460 You know, it wasn't right away, but then they slept through the night on night two thereafter, every night after.

00:24:13.540 They didn't need anybody else to get them back to sleep.

00:24:16.920 They learned to self-soothe their three delightful, well-adjusted children.

00:24:21.340 So just stop with the armchair.

00:24:23.040 Everything has to be re-examined because Lindsay Clancy tried something that didn't work for her.

00:24:28.540 I mean, this mother's fraught.

00:24:29.900 She's full of nerves.

00:24:30.860 She's like, I just think, you ever see super anxious kids, and then you meet the mom, and

00:24:36.300 you're like, mm-hmm, okay.

00:24:38.040 I think there's a fair amount of that happening here, where it's like, if you're some bundle

00:24:43.960 of nerves, really, you should really give it some serious thought before you reproduce.

00:24:49.180 Because not only are you passing on those genetics to a child, but then you are the

00:24:53.620 primary caregiver, and if you are a bundle of nerves, your kid is probably going to be

00:24:58.880 a bundle of nerves, too.

00:25:00.700 Whereas if you have a general relaxed countenance,

00:25:05.620 I don't know, an ability to deal with adversity

00:25:09.060 in a way that is mature,

00:25:11.620 then you're going to pass that on to your child.

00:25:15.140 Not everybody should be a parent.

00:25:17.600 Like, conservatives go too far.

00:25:19.340 When we start shaming people out,

00:25:20.960 it's like, well, I don't want to have children.

00:25:22.200 I just want to be footloose and fancy free.

00:25:23.940 Why are we shaming them for that?

00:25:25.440 I mean, I've participated in this to some extent.

00:25:28.580 Not really, but a little bit.

00:25:29.920 And that's wrong.

00:25:32.600 Not everybody should be a mother.

00:25:35.080 Not everybody should be a parent.

00:25:36.360 Not everybody's cut out for it.

00:25:38.640 So she had the third child.

00:25:41.080 The fall of 2022 came around, and she started to go downhill.

00:25:45.600 She couldn't get the baby on a sleep schedule, and she couldn't get Dawson to sleep or behave, the middle child, and her sleep started to suffer.

00:25:57.140 And this is devastating.

00:25:59.140 I mean, ask any woman in menopause what it's like to operate on no sleep.

00:26:04.760 And I was like, it's rough.

00:26:07.900 So you can do with a lot of things, but sleep is not one of them.

00:26:11.880 And she started to go to medical providers and ask for help.

00:26:15.980 And of course, the woman she wound up in the care of

00:26:19.700 had been done with her residency for about two minutes.

00:26:24.940 I mean, like literally.

00:26:26.260 and never saw her in person, only examined her via Zoom.

00:26:33.700 It's just like, that's so fucked up.

00:26:35.680 I'm all for telemedicine.

00:26:37.000 I really am.

00:26:37.600 It's like, it can be great.

00:26:40.140 When used to supplement actual in-office appointments

00:26:43.800 where there are hands placed on you

00:26:45.620 and actual exchanges where you look in the eye

00:26:47.800 and you get somebody's aura and you get their vibes,

00:26:52.220 you get their body language, you see if they're shaking,

00:26:55.180 all these things. When somebody has an alcohol problem, one of the things that starts to happen

00:27:00.400 when they're not drinking is they shake. How would you know that on telehealth? If they've

00:27:05.840 got their hands down here, you can't see them. It's not like their shoulders are shaking. It's

00:27:10.400 their hands. That's the first tell. If you've ever known anybody who's an alcoholic, you know what

00:27:15.000 I'm talking about, or a drug addict. The telehealth is a supplement. It's not a replacement for in

00:27:22.920 office visits. So I'm not impressed with this Dr. Taft at all, who was the primary

00:27:28.420 Tufts, I should say, who is the primary psychiatrist who she went to see. And of course,

00:27:36.140 the psychiatry field being what it is, the knee jerk reaction, just as soon as your leg kicks when

00:27:41.200 they hit it in the knee at the doctor's office, was to put her on an SSRI. So she tried a couple

00:27:47.960 of combinations, you know, to try the one, the Zoloft, oh, that doesn't work. Okay, try the

00:27:51.960 other one, the Prozac. Okay, that doesn't work. Try this other one. And Lindsay Clancy started

00:27:57.460 seeking different doctors and different meds. And that's not a great plan either because they're

00:28:03.580 not coordinating. And things just went into a downward spiral. And there's no question this

00:28:09.140 woman wanted help. I will say that for Lindsay Clancy. And I think this is one of the reasons

00:28:12.640 why so many people have such empathy for her. She wanted help and she was jumping up and down

00:28:18.000 begging for it. She told the husband, she told her mom, she told her mother-in-law, she told

00:28:23.780 these doctors who she was consulting with. She called a suicide hotline twice and spoke about

00:28:32.300 wanting to hurt herself, but because she didn't, quote, have a plan, they said, we can't help you.

00:28:36.740 That is so beyond effed up. There was testimony just yesterday with one of the prosecution's

00:28:43.420 rebuttal witnesses where Kevin Reddington asked, what would that do to somebody who's suicidal?

00:28:48.640 It's called the suicide hotline and be given the back of the hand, the stiff arm. No. Oh,

00:28:54.640 you don't have a plan. Okay. Bye. I get it. He's making good points. That's insane.

00:29:01.620 The suicide hotline needs to have a come to Jesus moment about helping the people who have gone to

00:29:09.240 the trouble to tell you they want to kill themselves, but haven't yet come up with a

00:29:13.060 plan. Were they called too soon? Like call me back when you've got the noose? What the f-

00:29:17.880 That's crazy. So I think all of us have empathy for her because this isn't somebody who just

00:29:25.460 started to go downhill and then kept it a secret and didn't tell anybody and denied that she was

00:29:32.080 having thoughts of harming herself or the children only to then do it. And also with a boyfriend on

00:29:38.840 the side who didn't like children, right? Like we've seen in some of these other infamous cases

00:29:43.940 involving women who killed their children. This isn't that. She was begging for help and the

00:29:48.620 medical system around her did a piss poor job of helping her. They did. So that's why a lot of

00:29:56.120 people say, how can we blame her? These things came over her. You know, she was dealing with

00:30:01.760 depression, insomnia, and so on. She did the right thing. She went to doctors. She asked for help.

00:30:06.120 They gave her, quote, help, air quotes.

00:30:09.120 The medications made the problem worse, or so it appeared.

00:30:12.760 And there's always an adjustment period when you go on these SSRIs.

00:30:15.780 You know, they got to figure out how to titrate it and how to ease you into it.

00:30:18.820 And if it's not the right drug, reportedly they only help like 30% of the people.

00:30:23.080 Like if you get Zoloft, 70% of the people are not going to be helped by it.

00:30:27.080 And so it's like this trial and error period while the person's suffering.

00:30:31.780 and if they just pull up stakes

00:30:35.080 and they don't have one person running hurt on their care,

00:30:38.060 things can go south, you know,

00:30:40.100 because then they go find another doctor and start anew

00:30:41.840 and then that person doesn't,

00:30:42.880 the right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing

00:30:44.220 and before you know it, you're really playing with fire.

00:30:49.520 But the bottom line is, we don't in this society say,

00:30:53.460 oh, I'm sad, she was dealing with a lot.

00:30:56.320 I guess she's not responsible for taking three lives.

00:30:59.100 that it's not a question of whether you can feel for her because she was troubled.

00:31:08.800 She was troubled.

00:31:10.460 She was troubled.

00:31:12.280 It's a question about whether legally, when she committed this act,

00:31:16.880 she could understand what she was doing was wrong.

00:31:19.580 And she did understand that.

00:31:22.060 She absolutely understood that.

00:31:24.260 That's why I believe the jury has a very real chance of accepting the prosecution's argument

00:31:30.680 that she sent her husband out of the home.

00:31:35.720 She Googled the route to the restaurant she sent him to pick up food at, which was not

00:31:43.780 their normal place, and it was farther, farther away from their house than the normal places

00:31:49.120 that they would go.

00:31:49.780 and she had Googled the route earlier.

00:31:53.100 So she knew it would take longer.

00:31:55.600 That is planning.

00:31:58.720 That looks like somebody who had murder on her mind

00:32:01.620 and was planning how to get rid of the husband

00:32:03.900 because the husband had been working from home.

00:32:05.960 The husband knew she was a powder keg,

00:32:09.040 though he had said that this was her best day,

00:32:11.300 one of her best days.

00:32:13.080 So he didn't see a warning sign that day,

00:32:15.200 but he did not leave Lindsay alone with the children

00:32:17.320 for a ton of time, though he had.

00:32:18.600 He had let her alone with them.

00:32:20.520 The defense brought that out in testimony that there had been other times when she'd

00:32:25.380 spent hours and hours alone with the children.

00:32:27.340 But in any event, he was keeping a close eye from the sound of it.

00:32:32.280 So she, I think, recognized she needed to send him out.

00:32:35.320 She sent him to CVS for a children's stool softener and then to go pick up the food.

00:32:41.200 And she knew the route because she had Googled it and chose a restaurant farther away.

00:32:44.680 Then he left and he called her. He left right after five and he called her at around 5.33.

00:33:00.080 He was gone like from 5.09 to 6, just after 6. And it was in that hour she killed the children

00:33:07.620 and tried to take her own life. And he called her up and she missed the call, but within seconds,

00:33:13.840 she returned the call. They spoke for 14 seconds. He said she sounded distracted,

00:33:20.180 like she was busy, like he thought she was maybe giving the children a bath,

00:33:24.340 and had a brief exchange about the medicine, hung up, and by the time he got home,

00:33:31.900 his children were dead. So it appears by all intents and purposes that she was either in

00:33:39.540 the midst of killing those children at 533 or had just killed the children. I mean, she understood

00:33:46.020 to keep it a secret. She understood not to tell that he might get home to stop her. And she didn't

00:33:53.440 want that. It wasn't consistent with her plan of sending him out so she could get it done.

00:34:01.280 And then she went upstairs and threw herself out the window. Now, frankly, I don't understand the

00:34:06.360 people who say this is a fake suicide attempt because she, she dove out the second story window,

00:34:13.280 like head first toward the ground, 20 feet below. Seems like a real suicide attempt to me. Some

00:34:19.940 people are pointing to the superficial wounds. She tried to cut herself horizontally across the neck

00:34:25.520 and horizontally across the wrists. And many people have said that's obviously a fake attempt

00:34:30.240 because among other things, she had Googled, how do you cut your own carotid? I don't know what one

00:34:36.880 finds when one Googles that, but presumably somebody would have made clear to her, it's an

00:34:42.200 artery that runs up and down on the sides of the neck, not in the center, you know, where a man's

00:34:48.260 Adam's apple would be. And some people are saying she's a nurse and she would have known that. I

00:34:53.240 don't think nurses have quite the bio and, you know, the human biology exposure that a doctor

00:34:59.900 gets with their own cadaver and all that. So it's possible she didn't know that or had forgotten

00:35:05.920 or got the wrong information from Google. Who the hell knows? But the point is, if that's all she

00:35:11.820 had done, okay, I could see it. This was a fake suicide attempt. She dove headfirst at the second

00:35:16.860 story window. I accept she tried to kill herself. Not to mention the calls to the suicide hotlines

00:35:25.020 and the multiple writings she had done,

00:35:28.600 it emerged at this trial as she had Googled,

00:35:30.960 sorry, she had written in her notes,

00:35:33.480 I'm going to pull up my own notes on it,

00:35:35.320 so I'm giving you the accurate quotes.

00:35:41.580 Stand by.

00:35:43.320 Sergeant Timothy Ciappini testified on August 14th

00:35:47.260 that they extracted highlights from her phone

00:35:50.580 at the police department,

00:35:51.400 And she had Googled, where is the carotid artery?

00:35:57.520 Can you turn off airbags on a Kia Sorento?

00:36:02.620 How to slit throat and die, she searched.

00:36:07.060 And she also searched, can you treat a sociopath?

00:36:11.060 Now that's really interesting.

00:36:14.420 Can you treat a sociopath?

00:36:17.020 Someone who has no empathy for others.

00:36:19.060 no empathy whatsoever, does not process human emotion the way the rest of us do.

00:36:26.520 I mean, this is where her worst detractors go, that she was one. She was a sociopath,

00:36:35.620 and that's why she killed the children, that it wasn't even altruistic, fell aside. She's a

00:36:41.400 sociopath who was done being a mother. The kids were kind of difficult. Her life was tough. She

00:36:46.720 wasn't getting enough sleep. She didn't want to be a mother anymore. So she got rid of them.

00:36:51.720 I'm not quite that cynical, but that is what some people believe about her.

00:36:57.960 So she clearly did want to die. I mean, I don't think you Google how to slit throat and die.

00:37:04.860 Can you turn off airbags of a Kia Sorento? And where is the carotid artery if you're

00:37:10.640 not thinking about dying? I mean, I suppose you could make the argument she originally

00:37:15.300 considered doing those things to kill her children. But there's plenty of evidence that

00:37:21.860 she was calling suicide hotlines and telling providers that she was having thoughts of

00:37:27.020 harming herself, that I accept she wanted to kill herself. As it turns out, she would live.

00:37:34.720 She would become a paraplegic. Some people are suggesting she's a quadriplegic. She's not. She's

00:37:39.180 moving her arms and her shoulders and her upper body. She's leaning over. She's a paraplegic.

00:37:45.300 and she's in a wheelchair in court right now. And I think she very much intended not to wake up

00:37:50.460 when she jumped out that window. I think she did want to die. But none of that changes whether

00:37:57.340 she knew right from wrong. And the doctors have testified about the methodical crushing of,

00:38:05.020 because she also took pills before she jumped out the window, the methodical crushing of the pills,

00:38:10.080 the lining up of the drink, like that would have taken time. It would have taken planning

00:38:15.620 and so on. And, um, all of that is evidence that she was of sound mind. She was making

00:38:24.400 logical decisions and she had ordered thinking. All right. I want to go back over a couple of

00:38:31.980 these points with actual trial testimony. And, uh, I'm going to start with Patrick Clancy.

00:38:37.100 All right, here he is. And he was helpful both to the prosecution and the defense. He was called by the prosecution, but he had a lot to say that was helpful to Lindsay's defense as well. And here he is describing a bit of the background to Kevin Reddington on Cross on, um, this is, uh, via CBS Boston, Sot 3.

00:38:59.640 What kind of a mother was she?

00:39:02.720 Um, she was very dedicated. She did everything.

00:39:07.100 Um, she started reading them books at three months and, um, she made up songs for them.

00:39:19.000 Um, I remember she used to make green eggs and ham for Cora because she liked that book.

00:39:25.020 Did she, to your observation, did she love Dawson?

00:39:28.020 She loved Dawson very much.

00:39:29.660 Did she resent him?

00:39:31.420 No.

00:39:33.560 Okay.

00:39:34.080 So she did not resent the children.

00:39:37.100 Then he is asked by the prosecution in the early months when she started having troubles

00:39:45.240 and he was still going out and about, what did you see in your wife, Sot4B?

00:39:52.900 During those months when you're going to the beach and out on the boat and visiting with

00:39:58.780 friends, were there any signs of anxiety in the defendant during those months?

00:40:03.220 um i would say starting in september yes but in the previous months uh not so much

00:40:11.020 when had she been scheduled to go back to work i don't remember the exact date but i think it

00:40:17.240 was october so again it was that pattern of as it became closer in time to go back to work

00:40:23.000 yeah she started to struggle yeah

00:40:24.800 during the times when um she would get anxious when it was time to go back to work

00:40:39.120 and she would start being anxious did you ever have any difficulty understanding her when she

00:40:43.720 spoke no and um did did she ever exhibit any behavior um that made you concerned enough

00:40:54.720 to call a doctor or want to commit her commit her no here's the defense talking about that same

00:41:02.100 time frame stop five what happened in uh september october of 2022 um lindsey's mental health started

00:41:12.860 to deteriorate and when you say that sir what is it that you as your husband observed just

00:41:19.500 increased stress and anxiety do you recall whether or not to your opinion that she had

00:41:25.320 any reactions to the zoloft that she had been placed on by dr um tufts i don't know any

00:41:32.220 observations that were made right so it's not guesswork it's observations anything you saw

00:41:38.880 and observed yeah it seemed to align with her uh insomnia symptoms now the insomnia inability to

00:41:47.860 sleep. Was that a significant problem from your observations with her? Yeah, it was a huge problem.

00:41:53.500 And when you say huge problem, was there one point when she was on medication from

00:41:57.580 Tufts that in fact she had gone 48 hours, I think, without sleep? Yeah. And that was disturbing to her?

00:42:04.980 Yeah, and it was just hard to function. And how about you? Was it disturbing to you?

00:42:08.900 I just wanted her to get sleep and feel better.

00:42:11.500 um now here is her mother lindsey clancy's mother testifying about a text she got same

00:42:20.240 time frame october 20th i remember some of the children had three months to live

00:42:25.360 from lindsey listen here sat 19 mom will you please come up and stay with me for a bit

00:42:34.840 I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night, and I just don't

00:42:41.500 know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed

00:42:46.860 for anxiety, and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary, and I don't want to be

00:42:53.800 alone. So she's reaching out. She's reaching out for help. Come stay with me. I'm really sick.

00:43:00.640 something's wrong. I think the medication has made things worse. And it was, it was making

00:43:06.560 things worse for her. She was going downhill on these meds and she knew it. Um, back at home

00:43:14.800 by the time they got to January, um, she had already done a stint at the beginning of the

00:43:23.720 month at January in McLean hospital. So she was hospitalized for a very short period. I think it

00:43:30.020 was three or four days at the beginning of January, but was released. Here is a question

00:43:36.820 back to the husband on what she was thinking, what she was like when she went to the hospital

00:43:43.020 at the beginning of the month, SOT9. Can you tell the jury what her state of mind was as she went

00:43:47.820 to McLean Hospital with her husband on New Year's 23 at that point? She was scared. She didn't want

00:43:55.420 to go. But I think it was the second time we went to the ER and I said, you have to go.

00:44:02.340 Do you know whether or not she saw a doctor or a psychiatrist ultimately from McLean Hospital?

00:44:10.280 I was not aware of that. The only one I was aware of was the doctor on the

00:44:14.500 second to last or final day. And what was that, Dr. Goodhart?

00:44:20.080 Yeah. And did you speak to Dr. Goodhart?

00:44:23.100 I ended up calling her.

00:44:25.960 I wanted to see what her evaluation was.

00:44:31.940 And so I gave her a call, and we spoke, and she said, you know, she's clearly depressed.

00:44:41.280 Sustained.

00:44:42.480 There was an occasion where she told you in the presence of her mother that she was having horrible thoughts, right?

00:44:51.420 Right.

00:44:52.520 And you told us about that yesterday.

00:44:56.360 And that took, it was quite an emotional thing for her to do that, right?

00:45:00.340 Right.

00:45:01.880 So he's testifying she was admitted into this McLean Hospital.

00:45:05.640 This is post, she'd been seeing Dr. Jennifer Tufts via Zoom only,

00:45:09.580 the one who had just finished her medical residency,

00:45:12.320 for those initial fall months in the September, October, November timeframe.

00:45:17.740 By the time they get to New Year's Day, she needs to go in hospital.

00:45:20.820 and that is where Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart took care of her. She took the stand in this case,

00:45:25.960 and here's how that went. Prosecution and then a bit of defense, not 25 and 26.

00:45:31.800 Major depressive disorder, severe without psychotic features.

00:45:37.960 During this interaction with her on the January 3rd, did you observe any signs of psychosis?

00:45:45.320 No, there's several things.

00:45:47.360 She was future-oriented.

00:45:49.400 She was clearly invested in her children.

00:45:54.680 She was a caring mother, just like a caring mother.

00:45:59.460 She had her parents around to help her.

00:46:04.560 She had family and supports.

00:46:06.540 But in order for a person to receive intervention,

00:46:10.200 they have to identify that they have an intent or a plan.

00:46:13.640 Yes. And to your knowledge, based on your experience and your conversations with this particular patient, did she ever indicate that she ever said she had a plan? No. No, no plan. And these are apparently the magic words in psychiatry. So she was released. And within three weeks, she will have killed her children and tried to kill herself.

00:46:40.240 Here's back to Patrick on first, her suggesting he go to this 3V restaurant, which was farther away than the normal ones.

00:46:51.880 It's not 11.

00:46:53.060 I want to direct your attention to 4.53 p.m. that day.

00:46:57.640 Did you receive a text from Lindsay about dinner?

00:47:01.720 Yeah.

00:47:02.420 And do you recall what it said?

00:47:04.660 Something along the lines of, do you want to get takeout?

00:47:06.880 I haven't planned anything.

00:47:07.720 Do you recall it saying, any chance you want to do takeout from 3V?

00:47:12.220 I didn't cook anything. It's been a long day.

00:47:16.840 Had you been to 3V restaurant previously, alone or with the family?

00:47:23.480 With the family.

00:47:24.720 And approximately how many times had you been there to eat?

00:47:27.940 Probably three times.

00:47:30.060 And so you had all gotten in the car and driven from your home.

00:47:35.200 Had you ever done takeout from there before?

00:47:37.720 No. Where would you typically do takeout when you were going to do takeout at home?

00:47:43.500 The Chestnut Grill. I think another one was West End Grill.

00:47:49.360 Were those closer than 3V to your home? Yeah.

00:47:52.340 So Lindsay suggested 3V and you agreed. Is that correct?

00:47:56.600 Yeah. Did she send you another text at 4.56 p.m. asking you to take a look at the menu?

00:48:03.200 yeah and did you send a text at 5 0 6 p.m um about callum yeah i asked if he had taken a nap

00:48:14.160 and did she respond yeah it's chilling to just know what's leading up to what all of this is

00:48:23.160 leading up to he went on um this is when he was leaving the house sought 13 who called in the

00:48:31.960 order to 3V. Lindsay. Once the order was placed, what did you do? I came upstairs. I took Callen

00:48:43.200 for a minute, and then I rocked him by my knees, kissed Cora on the head, and I settled right back.

00:48:50.380 Do you remember what the defendant's... Well, first of all, where was the defendant seated

00:48:56.860 when you left the house, or was she seated?

00:49:00.620 She was standing.

00:49:01.840 Where was she?

00:49:03.300 In the doorway of the living room.

00:49:06.300 And was that the doorway by the front door,

00:49:10.500 or the doorway by the basement door?

00:49:12.620 It was the doorway by the basement door.

00:49:13.840 Okay.

00:49:14.900 And did she have Callan, or where was Callan?

00:49:17.920 She had Callan.

00:49:18.660 Okay.

00:49:19.220 And what was her demeanor?

00:49:22.420 Normal.

00:49:22.900 one more before we take a quick break stop 14 his and did you receive a call back from her

00:49:31.800 about a minute later at 5 34 p.m yeah that's correct okay and um can you describe that phone

00:49:38.900 call for us it was very brief i just said um i think there was a generic brand and i said is

00:49:44.420 this one okay and she said yeah that's fine and um what was her demeanor during the call

00:49:49.980 um she's pretty quiet it sounded like she was busy i remember hanging up thinking she's probably in

00:49:58.500 the middle of giving baths or something like that so it sounded to you like she was in the

00:50:02.660 middle of something yeah were you able to understand her when she spoke to you yeah

00:50:08.540 and did she seem to understand what you were saying yes she stopped she took a call

00:50:16.800 She was lucid.

00:50:18.380 She did not sound out of her mind.

00:50:20.420 They dealt with the business of the CVS.

00:50:24.300 And then she went back to whatever it was she was doing in that particular moment,

00:50:28.120 which was either killing the children or having killed them,

00:50:31.820 about to go upstairs and throw herself out the window.

00:50:34.880 That is tough, tough, tough to argue.

00:50:38.100 That's a psychotic woman in that moment.

00:50:40.780 We'll pick it up there when we come back with Brian Enten.

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00:52:35.320 When we left off, we had Patrick Clancy talking about his call with his wife when he was out

00:52:41.740 running the errands she sent him on. And we know now that in the midst of that call, somewhere

00:52:46.740 around it, she was murdering their children. And he has testified about what he saw when he came

00:52:55.260 home, which was his wife on the front lawn, injured, but alive, saying she tried to kill

00:53:01.820 herself. And it appears that at that point, it didn't dawn on him that his children might have

00:53:06.640 been hurt. He asks where they are. And she says in the basement, and it's not until EMS gets there

00:53:12.840 to take care of Lindsay's injuries that he then goes to check on his children. Um, and unfortunately

00:53:20.280 finds them in the most gruesome state possible. She's strangled them, not with an exercise band

00:53:27.720 as people are loosely saying, but with a cord, you know, it looks like a bungee cord,

00:53:33.500 a different color for each child. They played in court the 911 call that he made upon that discovery.

00:53:44.340 They did not release it to the public because presumably it's just so difficult and gruesome

00:53:49.780 and awful, but at some point it will become part of the public record. However, the Daily Mail had

00:53:56.340 a reporter inside the courtroom who was there as it was played. And she spoke with our next guest,

00:54:02.160 who I'll bring in after we play this, Brian Enten. He's with News Nation. And she described

00:54:09.820 the call. Here's that. It was one of the worst, the worst thing I've ever heard. It was the

00:54:19.280 screams coming out of Patrick were just unearthly and guttural and unlike anything I've ever heard

00:54:28.320 really and you know it's I think it's important to note that you know the beginning as you say

00:54:34.000 that he he went he found Lindsay and he was panicked you could hear the panic in his voice

00:54:39.340 but he was still very coherent and he was able to talk to the dispatcher about getting emergency

00:54:45.020 responders there, he was able to reassure Lindsay. And then when emergency responders arrived, he was

00:54:51.000 heard saying, I'm just going to go check on the kids. You could hear him running down the stairs

00:54:56.400 and then just these unearthly screams. And yeah, and then he was unable to speak. His words were

00:55:05.000 indiscernible until he screamed out, she killed the kids. And I mean, the whole courtroom was just

00:55:12.220 torn apart by it you know it was jury jury members were crying lindsey's parents were crying

00:55:19.500 members of the media the public lindsey herself hunched over the defense table quietly sobbing

00:55:26.320 but then when the judge immediately called the recess the second that stopped playing he cleared

00:55:31.420 the courtroom and she broke down in loud and controllable sobs i mean it was very distressing

00:55:37.400 to everyone in that room.

00:55:40.860 It's amazing to think of Lindsay Clancy sitting there,

00:55:44.500 hearing that description,

00:55:46.840 hearing her husband find the scene

00:55:48.460 and having an independent memory in her head

00:55:51.560 of having done it, having caused it.

00:55:54.780 Having an independent memory in her head

00:55:56.700 of strangling her three children

00:55:59.180 who depended on her for everything.

00:56:01.920 It's just unfathomable.

00:56:05.440 Joining me now is Brian Enten.

00:56:06.560 He's senior national correspondent for NewsNation. He's been on the ground covering the Lindsay Clancy trial, and he's hosting a special on the CW next Wednesday, September 2nd, about the case. Brian, welcome back. That was Rachel Sharp of the Daily Mail recounting a very, probably the most difficult moment in court for all in attendance.

00:56:26.120 um you've been in there for the past few days watching what are you seeing from this jury which

00:56:32.940 we know is 12 women six men that's 18 of course but we just we just don't know which 12 will wind

00:56:40.220 up becoming the actual 12 they keep the alternates um watching the trial as though nobody knows what

00:56:46.180 the final 12 will be so in any event what are you seeing from them yeah well first of all i'm outside

00:56:50.520 the courthouse now and the the bite you just played about the 911 call it's interesting because

00:56:55.120 the 911 call just came up again within the last couple of minutes. Dr. Sofoff is on the stand,

00:57:01.700 who's a psychiatrist testifying for the prosecution. And he testified, as you said,

00:57:07.620 that Patrick Clancy spoke about how he talked to Lindsay and she talked about trying to commit

00:57:13.160 suicide and sort of what happened and said that the kids were in the basement. But Reddington,

00:57:17.500 the defense attorney, was really pushing him on that saying, but on the 911 call,

00:57:21.100 all you can hear are moans and sort of screams from lindsey clancy almost insinuating that lindsey

00:57:27.280 clancy never said anything um outside the house when she was on the ground and uh it was just

00:57:32.880 kind of an interesting back and forth and i was trying to figure out what reddington was trying

00:57:36.280 to get out like was he trying to point out that patrick clancy wasn't totally telling the truth

00:57:39.740 it was kind of hard to understand where he was going with it but he was really pushing

00:57:43.460 um the psychiatrist on that in terms of the jury um i've just been staring at them when i've been

00:57:49.260 inside the courtroom trying to figure out what they're thinking. It's mostly women. You mentioned

00:57:53.980 it. The women are almost all over 40, over 45 years old, well-dressed. They seem very,

00:58:01.500 very tuned in to everything. No one ever looks tired. You cover some trials and you can tell

00:58:06.900 people are nodding off or they're exhausted by this point because it's been weeks. They don't

00:58:10.620 seem like that at all. They're locked in all the time. Many of them are taking notes. And it's hard

00:58:16.080 to say what they're thinking. Yesterday, they seemed a little frustrated towards the end of

00:58:21.460 the day because they've just been going back and forth during this rebuttal. And two of the women

00:58:25.580 kind of looked at each other and almost rolled their eyes like, here we go again, because they

00:58:28.560 keep going over the same thing. So they seemed a little frustrated yesterday, but definitely

00:58:31.980 paying close attention. Frustrated at how the witnesses were performing or just the line of

00:58:39.820 questions? I think it was the line of questioning yesterday because with this rebuttal, again,

00:58:43.680 And they just go back and forth so many times and it gets kind of repetitive.

00:58:47.420 And I think that they were just kind of like, let's get the show on the road kind of kind of frustration.

00:58:54.060 You know, I started the hour, the show today by talking about the difference between Jennifer Sprague, who's the assistant district attorney trying the case and Kevin Reddington and how much more likable he generally is in that courtroom and very effective to.

00:59:08.500 Jennifer Sprague is getting a very different, you know, she's having very different feedback, Brian.

00:59:14.600 People don't seem to much like her or the way she's performing in there.

00:59:18.760 Are you seeing any of that?

00:59:20.760 Describe the differences in counsel.

00:59:23.100 Yeah, and they had a little bit of a spat maybe 20 minutes ago in there that was actually kind of funny.

00:59:28.400 He kept calling her Sprague, and she didn't like that, and she kind of butted in.

00:59:32.460 She said, Attorney Sprague.

00:59:33.760 And then he again purposely called her Jen Sprague, and she just kind of rolled her eyes.

00:59:37.520 but then he later called her attorney's break so he's very very confident i mean it almost feels

00:59:42.380 like he is in full control of the courtroom even in a way that the judge isn't in control and you

00:59:48.200 can tell that him and the judge go way back he seems to know the courtroom staff i mean he's 75

00:59:52.720 years old he still does 10 trials a year he says so he kind of knows everybody and it's it's full

00:59:58.480 confidence um and it's sort of just a different vibe with her uh and she just kind of seems grumpy

01:00:05.240 most of the time. And just that kind of personality hasn't really come through with her. And even

01:00:10.900 after court every day, Reddington comes out and he talks to the media and he doesn't, you know,

01:00:16.320 when you cover some trials, you know, they'll like rush out and they'll run to their car. I

01:00:19.460 mean, he stops, he talks every day, he answers everybody's questions, whereas she just kind of

01:00:23.720 goes out a back door and you never really hear from her. Yeah, you never do with the prosecution.

01:00:29.440 But what about, talk about Lindsey Clancy's presence inside that courtroom. What you've

01:00:34.920 been covering it watching it through the screen as we all have and then you get you get out there

01:00:40.780 last week and and now you see now you're in the courtroom that we've all been watching on screen

01:00:45.180 and you get to lay eyes on lindsey clancy sitting there in the wheelchair tell us what you saw and

01:00:50.780 your reactions yeah it's an interesting vibe in the courtroom especially on monday because there

01:00:54.940 were so many i mean it's you got the media in the corner but then the rest of the room is filled with

01:00:59.420 99 percent women who are there to watch the trial some of them are in the pink shirts supporting

01:01:05.340 lindsey clancy and then you've got the women in the white shirts who are they say supporting the

01:01:10.000 kids and they want lindsey clancy to be found guilty and they're all throughout the courtroom

01:01:13.680 so it's it's interesting that they're in there and they're in their different color shirts and

01:01:16.600 she clearly sees them during the the testimony she just kind of looks dead on without really

01:01:23.580 kind of much emotion while i know she had some emotional outbreaks early on but since i've been

01:01:28.200 here this week i haven't seen much emotion the most interesting moment for me was there was one

01:01:32.920 day when court ended they were going into a break and they kind of wheeled her away from the table

01:01:39.180 so she was almost facing the door and i was as i was walking out we kind of locked eyes for a second

01:01:43.740 and it was just strange looking at her knowing what what she did i mean she's admitted to doing

01:01:48.820 it and also i mean she's really put together that was the other thing i kind of thought of

01:01:53.040 her hair is done nicely. She's clearly curled it every day. I mean, I don't know what women do,

01:01:59.080 but it's like a flat iron or whatever. And she's got nice clothes on. She doesn't look

01:02:05.340 disheveled at all. She doesn't look mentally ill. She looks totally with it, but she's just there

01:02:10.240 in the wheelchair. And I've actually heard from sources outside the courtroom connected to the

01:02:15.100 case that her mental health right now, they say, is actually very good, that she is fully with it

01:02:21.720 now and it feels like that in court do we have any idea on the medical cocktail what they did

01:02:28.900 to get her to this point because one of the main points that the prosecution is making is okay she

01:02:33.580 allegedly heard the male voice telling her to commit these murders um so convenient that she

01:02:38.520 had never heard it before never before she she said to the father and to her own mother i'm

01:02:44.720 having thoughts i'm having thoughts those are her words of killing not killing but of hurting the

01:02:49.980 children. Do you have a plan? No. And Patrick said, I felt comfortable leaving her with the

01:02:55.020 children and had before with nothing happening, but never had mentioned voices, a male voice or

01:03:01.860 someone instructing her in her mind on what to do until, this is what the prosecution's experts are

01:03:07.600 saying, the 18 minutes in which the crime happened, which is, you know, which they found very

01:03:14.480 suspicious. I think we have that. Hold on a second. Yeah, here it is. This is Dr. Kirk

01:03:19.080 Halbern, making this point, saw 35. The way she described this as happening

01:03:26.820 is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination.

01:03:33.300 And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes

01:03:40.720 or so that it took to kill the children and to put it mildly that would be a very very unusual

01:03:53.380 pattern or or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about why is that doctor why

01:04:03.080 why are you careful when someone tells you that they only experience this voice during a criminal

01:04:11.540 offense? Well, because it provides a convenient way of, of lessening your own culpability.

01:04:21.800 Okay. So that's him casting doubt on whether she really heard the voice, but we do know that if

01:04:27.700 If she did hear the voice, it was only that time.

01:04:30.500 It was only the day the murders, no record of her hearing it before and no record.

01:04:36.120 It seems to be undisputed.

01:04:37.240 She never heard it from the time she was found on the lawn thereafter.

01:04:41.080 Her defenders will say that's because she's on a different set of meds now.

01:04:44.000 She's been hospitalized.

01:04:45.460 Do we know what happened on the medications before versus after?

01:04:50.720 We don't exactly.

01:04:51.960 It's been very confusing following the medications because they were changed so many times.

01:04:56.180 And then there were times that she chose not to take the medicine.

01:04:58.660 So it's been kind of unclear exactly what medicines she was on at what time, including when the murders happened.

01:05:05.620 But again, today, the psychiatrist on the stand is saying something similar to what Dr. Halburn said, that he's not convinced that it was actually a voice.

01:05:15.880 He thinks that it was more of a thought, that she was having these thoughts and that she's confusing it with hearing a voice.

01:05:21.600 just because this psychiatrist today, who, by the way, is like the top scientist for the FBI

01:05:27.240 Behavioral Analysis Unit, says that it would be unusual to just have, as you said, the voice in

01:05:33.500 that one period. Granted, Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, has been calling him out and

01:05:39.220 calling the psychologist you played out from yesterday because they didn't really spend much

01:05:43.320 time with Lindsay Clancy. I mean, today's psychiatrist literally did a one-hour Zoom

01:05:48.120 with her. And this was only a couple of months ago and has even admitted that examining someone

01:05:53.800 years after something like this happened is not the best way to do it. So he's been trying to

01:05:59.260 kind of poke holes and well, do they really even know what she was experiencing?

01:06:04.020 Here is that FBI doc that you referenced, Dr. Gregory Sadoff, talking about the same issue

01:06:11.300 about if you're really psychotic, the voice doesn't come and go. Here is Sot 03. This is

01:06:17.060 court on Tuesday. Doctor, based on your training and experience in dealing with diagnosing and

01:06:24.900 treating people who have psychosis and what you've learned in all your training and schooling,

01:06:31.080 is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice only one time, never before, never after?

01:06:39.920 no and again based on your training experience is it typical for someone in psychosis to

01:06:48.780 hear a voice that's constant rather than intermittent no that is not typical and is

01:06:58.520 it typical based on your training experience for someone to hear command hallucinations and then

01:07:04.240 for them to stop abruptly? No. Committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not

01:07:16.080 ever seen that. And yet the defense put up experts of its own, Dr. Paul Zeisel and Philip Resnick,

01:07:27.880 who did say that she had documented with them hearing the voice that this was psychosis

01:07:36.080 and that she was being controlled, she thought, by an outside force.

01:07:40.780 Here's just a bit of that, Brian.

01:07:42.000 This is SOT30, Dr. Philip Resnick, who testified for the defense.

01:07:44.960 He also testified at the Andrea Yates trial and has consulted on a lot of trials,

01:07:49.240 including the Jeffrey Dahmer trial, which I opened the hour talking about, SOT30.

01:07:52.460 And at the time of the crime itself, on January 24, 2023, Ms. Clancy was frankly psychotic.

01:08:04.960 Those are dangerous command hallucinations.

01:08:10.120 Now, in Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children.

01:08:22.340 she had what is known as a delusion of influence.

01:08:27.860 That is, not only did she hear a command,

01:08:31.400 but she felt that her body was taken over by an external force

01:08:37.520 where she was in a dream state and did not have control of her own body.

01:08:44.960 It was almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings.

01:08:49.800 hmm so this jury has had quite a few medical experts saying diametrically opposed things to

01:08:57.380 them brian and many people believe it's going to come down to just how sorry do they feel for

01:09:04.120 lindsey clancy if at all yeah and and i keep hearing this term like the battle of the experts

01:09:09.780 and it really is because there's been even since i've been here so many experts who have all said

01:09:14.960 like literally the opposite things and even the prosecution doctors evaluated her together they

01:09:22.560 went into the hospital together and evaluated her at the same time and had different theories

01:09:27.640 about what actually was going on in her brain so you you have to it just makes you think about

01:09:33.520 like psychiatry i never really thought about it this much until i was sitting there like just

01:09:37.660 what a non-exact science it is that you've got all of these different doctors who can't even agree on

01:09:43.920 exactly what happened here. And yeah, that's what it's going to come down to. I mean, they're going

01:09:47.500 to have to decide who they believe, or as you say, just whether they feel sorry for her. And just

01:09:53.900 the fact that there really doesn't seem to be another motive here for why she would have done

01:09:59.180 this. I mean, everyone for the most part has agreed that she was an amazing mom. They tried

01:10:03.820 to talk a little bit about a financial motive today, but that doesn't really seem to add up.

01:10:09.040 So there's not another motive secretly out there. They spoke again today. They went through all the

01:10:13.860 cell phones they went through all the emails they went through all the journals that's when you see

01:10:17.540 all these like crazy theories on tiktok it's like they would have found this stuff the prosecution

01:10:21.620 went through everything um but it doesn't seem like there was some other motive out there for

01:10:26.620 her to do this well there are some people out there suggesting that the father did it um and

01:10:32.580 i saw you were in the scrum yesterday around kevin reddington as he left where he was asked this is

01:10:38.280 her defense lawyer you know did patrick do it not that in those exact words but you know asked about

01:10:43.680 these theories. And he was like, oh, come on. You know, I get enough trouble trying to defend

01:10:48.420 Lindsay. Like that's, but he was rolling his eyes. Lindsay doesn't dispute that she killed

01:10:54.040 the children. She doesn't dispute that. The whole thing comes down to whether she should go to a

01:11:00.720 mental health facility or whether she should go to jail. I mean, that's really what we're arguing

01:11:04.740 over. And the legal standard, Brian, is that the prosecution has to prove that either she

01:11:13.640 didn't have a qualifying mental disease or defect or that any such condition did not deprive her

01:11:20.400 of the substantial capacity to either appreciate that her conduct was criminal or wrong or conform

01:11:28.980 her conduct to the requirements of the law. To me, this all comes down to the prosecution trying

01:11:33.560 to argue that she did not lose her ability to appreciate that her conduct was wrong. She knew

01:11:40.220 her conduct was wrong. That's why she sent the husband out to the farther restaurant and waited

01:11:46.560 until he left and did all the things she did because she didn't want to witness. She didn't

01:11:52.200 want to be stopped. And she wanted to make sure that those children were dead. I mean, that's

01:11:56.220 really what it comes down to. When you talk to the lay people around the courthouse, because I know

01:11:59.960 you're great about talking to everybody on scene like this. Do you get any feel for what the mood

01:12:05.800 is yeah i mean look it's pretty divided it started out with mostly the pink ladies i'm sure you saw

01:12:11.460 them all of the women um in pink who have been outside supporting lindsey clancy and there was

01:12:15.960 that one day where they lined the street and actually cheered when her van arrived which i

01:12:21.280 talked to the organizer of the pink ladies yesterday and she said that that was not the

01:12:25.280 plan by the way she's like i told everybody to just be silent and hold their signs and they just

01:12:30.120 crazy impromptu cheered and she was actually not happy about it she's like this kind of like caused

01:12:34.180 a controversy and we don't think of her as a hero and it turned a lot of people off there are even

01:12:38.200 people i knew who were supporting her that that moment kind of like turned it for them um so you've

01:12:43.340 got those ladies uh and then in the beginning the white shirt ladies were not there uh but they've

01:12:49.700 now also come and they all kind of are in a field outside the courthouse and they are there to

01:12:56.180 support lindsey clancy's children they have uh usually t-shirts and signs with the pictures of

01:13:00.960 the three kids and they believe she is guilty. But what's interesting is I went around and talked

01:13:06.040 to all of them the other day and all of them pretty much agree that she was mentally ill

01:13:10.340 and don't think there was some other secret motive for the most part and think that she

01:13:14.140 probably did have postpartum psychosis. But to them, it just doesn't excuse the fact that a mother

01:13:20.960 murdered her children. I think they're right. I mean, honestly, I know you don't opine on these

01:13:26.960 things on the conclusion of your report. But I will say, I agree with that. I don't know about

01:13:32.500 psychosis, but she definitely was severely depressed and having massive issues. I mean,

01:13:37.620 generally taking Zoloft or Prozac does not cause psychosis and make you kill your children,

01:13:43.420 or those drugs wouldn't be the huge juggernauts that they are. And then there's been testimony

01:13:49.780 that postpartum psychosis does not, if you get it, it does not go eight months post-birth.

01:13:55.500 And so that's being rejected.

01:13:57.740 And it is important whether this was an internal thought,

01:14:00.880 you know, I want my children to die

01:14:02.480 and I'm going to be the one to do it

01:14:04.100 versus a voice that you're hearing,

01:14:07.120 which would be more consistent with psychosis,

01:14:09.900 with like a true insane event taking over

01:14:12.940 as opposed to you got really depressed,

01:14:15.300 you had enough, you felt you had no other choice,

01:14:18.540 you were gonna kill yourself

01:14:19.560 and you didn't think the children could

01:14:21.440 or should live without you,

01:14:22.680 which is really the prosecution's theory which doesn't that doesn't make you insane you're

01:14:27.900 depressed and this is sad what happened to you but we can't start getting giving mothers a pass

01:14:33.960 just because they're super depressed when it comes to killing their kids i mean that's basically how

01:14:38.400 this how this shakes out yeah um and i think it's interesting to point out too that if she's not

01:14:44.120 guilty by reason of insanity uh she could get out i mean if what i'm hearing is true i mean

01:14:50.560 she's overcome the postpartum psychosis she's been in treatment um and that she's doing relatively

01:14:57.460 okay now if she's not guilty yes she'll go to the institution immediately but i would i believe that

01:15:05.800 in a few years she'll come back before the judge periodically she very well may get out and walk

01:15:10.680 free granted what life kind of life will she have i mean she's obviously miserable because she killed

01:15:14.160 her kids and she's in the wheelchair and all the rest but um i don't think it's going to be like

01:15:18.620 a Susan Smith where she stays, you know, in, in a lockdown facility for decades. I really don't.

01:15:25.160 Yep. Well, that's, that's important to think about. I mean, because we've been thinking about

01:15:31.260 it, that she'd be locked up, you know, perhaps even longer in a mental health facility than in

01:15:35.440 a jail, but you're raising a good point. If she's already on the path back to wellness,

01:15:41.140 how long would they keep her? If she gets in a mental facility, they let you go and they think

01:15:45.180 you're not safe. Sorry, I didn't mean to say Susan Smith. Yeah, yeah. There was a moment with

01:15:51.680 this Gregory Sadoff, the FBI doc yesterday, where it was chilling, Brian, you must run in the court

01:15:59.280 for this, or he, they were talking about what the children must have gone through. Would they be

01:16:07.040 like little puppets she could easily manipulate? Or would they have fought? It was just so dark,

01:16:13.960 but it's relevant because this jury, they're humans like you and I, and they will absolutely

01:16:20.540 have reactions to any time spent over that target of what the kids actually went through in the

01:16:26.700 moment. Here is part of that in SOT 05. Doctor, is there any significance to the fact that this

01:16:33.760 voice is telling her to kill the children, but not telling her how to kill the children?

01:16:40.540 Yes. And what is that?

01:16:43.960 You know, just like adults, children have a will to survive, strong, strong will to survive.

01:16:55.400 I think it's just part of being human.

01:16:59.180 And so I know that Dr. Resnick described Ms. Clancy acting as if she were a puppet.

01:17:13.960 Um, but the children are not puppets.

01:17:21.860 Hmm.

01:17:23.700 They, the jury has seen the autopsy photos, Brian.

01:17:28.300 I mean, the jury has gone through a lot in this trial and I'm sure they are at their emotional wits end.

01:17:34.820 They've not been sequestered, however, right?

01:17:37.140 They've been going back home at night.

01:17:39.640 Yeah, they haven't been sequestered.

01:17:41.200 And back to what he was saying there, I mean, we've heard that it, you know, may have taken three minutes for each child to die. And she had to go one by one. And remember, Cora is five years old.

01:17:55.820 awesome yeah and there's even been talk of um the little boy found you know in the office like may

01:18:02.200 have tried to run away so it's hard to look past that and just for anybody even me sitting there

01:18:08.620 okay psychosis or whatever this was but like that doesn't snap you out of it i mean after the first

01:18:15.100 one you don't know as a mother you don't snap out of it it is hard to wrap your brain around that

01:18:20.180 uh and back to your question about the sequestration they're not going to be sequestered

01:18:23.900 We actually asked Kevin Reddington when he came out of court yesterday, would you want the jury to be sequestered during just deliberations?

01:18:31.180 And he kind of just like like laughed and said, no, no, we don't do that here.

01:18:34.520 He's he's such an interesting guy.

01:18:36.240 Like he's he's obviously very skilled, but he's he just kind of keeps things simple.

01:18:40.560 I've noticed like to him, I think the idea of sequestration is just too much.

01:18:44.360 And he also feels like the jury's been through so much.

01:18:47.940 The best lawyers do the best, best lawyers.

01:18:50.720 I tried this case one time for a very large Fortune 100 corporation in federal court in Iowa.

01:18:57.460 And we were brought into the case.

01:18:58.820 It was really two other parties that were suing each other.

01:19:00.920 And the defendant brought us into the case saying, if I get on the hook for this, I want this client to also be on the hook.

01:19:09.480 So the plaintiff's lawyer got up there and made this big, long opening like, this defendant did wrong and this is how much money I should get.

01:19:18.340 The defense lawyer got up there and said, it's not true. We did nothing wrong. The plaintiff has it all incorrect. And our lead lawyer got up and said, this one's doing this one. This one's doing. We just want to go home. We just want to go home. And sure enough, the jury let us out of the case.

01:19:34.060 Like, sometimes just the simplest messaging of like, what am I doing here?

01:19:39.300 Like, it can resonate.

01:19:41.140 And that's why it's like, to me, the experts probably do it to cancel each other out.

01:19:46.140 The women on the jury in particular, most of them will probably have had a baby or know somebody who had a baby, maybe have a daughter who had a baby, and will have their own strong thoughts about maternal instincts for good and for bad for this defendant.

01:20:02.200 And I just think it's probably going to come down to what you said, like, we're not letting this woman possibly go free.

01:20:09.940 She killed her three kids or we're going to send a message to the medical establishment that women's postpartum depression matters and we hold you responsible, not not Lindsay Clancy.

01:20:21.800 I don't know which way they're going to go.

01:20:23.360 Your thoughts.

01:20:24.920 Yeah, I don't know either.

01:20:26.060 I mean, it's it's it's like it feels like less of a crime story and in some ways, like more of a moral dilemma.

01:20:32.400 And I don't I think I think it's going to be a long deliberation.

01:20:35.760 And just back to Kevin Reddington and you kind of saying how good lawyers keep it simple.

01:20:39.100 Even yesterday, we also asked him when he came out, how long do you think closings will be?

01:20:43.200 You think a couple hours? And he like laughed and said, no way.

01:20:46.180 He's like, I'm just going to go 30 minutes. So he definitely has this attitude that he's going to keep it simple.

01:20:52.840 And I think he's like respectful of what the jury has already been through the time that, you know, that they've already given.

01:20:59.960 But, yeah, we'll see.

01:21:00.880 I mean, closings are going to be tomorrow.

01:21:02.480 So they'll do jury instructions in the morning and then closings after that.

01:21:06.740 And then we'll just have to see what happens.

01:21:08.800 Maybe we'll get a verdict on Friday.

01:21:10.260 Maybe it may take quite some time.

01:21:13.080 Could be could be hung potentially.

01:21:15.020 I doubt it, but it could be since it's not guilt or innocence exactly.

01:21:18.440 So I feel like they'll probably get to a verdict.

01:21:19.960 But famous last words, Brian Enten.

01:21:22.000 always a pleasure, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks for your great coverage. And we'll check

01:21:25.020 out your special on the second. Thanks, Megan. I appreciate you. Okay. We'll be right back. Don't

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01:22:37.480 big news just hitting the wires uh another defeat for blake lively the final defeat i believe in her

01:22:49.540 ill-fated lawsuit against justin baldoni she wanted him to pay as her final i am woman hear

01:22:57.020 me roar a moment eight million dollars in legal fees for that claim that she got dismissed of him

01:23:05.220 his defamation. He tried to counter-sue against her for defaming him. It got thrown out and under

01:23:11.120 California law, she's entitled to fees as a result of that sequence of events. The judge

01:23:16.720 has just ruled on what she will get. It's $400,000. She wanted $8 million so she could run

01:23:26.500 around telling everyone, I got him in the end. He's so dumb. He agreed to my settlement. He was

01:23:32.300 telling everybody he didn't have to pay, but I got him in the end for 8 million bucks on my fee.

01:23:35.960 No, not even half a million, $400,000. And you know what? I'll tell you something. If she had

01:23:44.080 gone to Justin Baldoni before this whole thing got started and said, you know, I had some problems

01:23:47.820 with the way things went down on the set, didn't appreciate this, that, and the other thing.

01:23:51.040 If you pay me $400,000, I'll go away. He probably would have done it in a heartbeat,

01:23:54.660 he and his production company, just to avoid this whole nightmare. It would have been a great deal

01:23:59.260 for Blake, who would have still had a career and people who liked her, unlike now, or she doesn't

01:24:05.240 have either. The judge finding that the hourly rate charged by the attorneys for Lively and

01:24:13.720 Baldoni, let's see, yeah, was not unreasonable as the case presented substantial financial and

01:24:21.980 reputational risks to both sides, but Judge Lyman also rejected her demand to be reimbursed

01:24:28.060 for the cost to her PR team, saying media relations were not integral to defending the

01:24:33.620 defamation claim brought against Blake Lively. He also ruled the clerk of court is respectfully

01:24:39.540 directed to enter judgment for Lively in the amount of $363,000 in change in attorney's fees

01:24:45.860 and $44,000 in change in costs. He said, while the attorney's fees, like the rate per hour was

01:24:54.540 not unreasonable. The number of hours that Lively had billed for her lawyers was unreasonable.

01:25:01.200 And he criticized the discrepancies in the expenses that she was trying to claim. So

01:25:06.280 Brian Friedman's team came forward and said, there's some funny business afoot on this math

01:25:10.680 judge. And he seemed to agree. This is great. I mean, because, you know, she was getting ready

01:25:15.920 to do her little PR tour. We spoke with a woman who is behind the creation of that law that said,

01:25:21.340 If you're a sexual harassment or abuse victim and you file a lawsuit against your alleged harasser and he countersues you for defamation and then you manage to get the defamation claim thrown out, you can get your fees.

01:25:35.780 She's behind that law.

01:25:37.620 And she came on this program and made a lot of news saying we never had the likes of Blake Lively in mind when we passed this law.

01:25:44.700 It was meant to start to stop a disempowered female with no clout, connections, financial resources or power from getting harassed by a much more powerful industry boss who could ruin her career.

01:25:58.960 The roles were reversed.

01:26:00.460 Blake Lively was the bully.

01:26:01.900 She and her husband with her dragons, Taylor Swift and Ryan Reynolds, they had all the power.

01:26:06.880 Justin Baldoni had none.

01:26:08.380 Very few people even knew who he was prior to the commencement of this whole case.

01:26:12.840 So everything, and so she wanted to then bring that law into existence in all 50 states,

01:26:19.800 and she wanted to spearhead it.

01:26:21.540 And this woman, who actually did get it passed in California and a couple of other key states,

01:26:26.380 told us that she said to Blake's team,

01:26:28.260 please no, please have Blake Lively stay out of this.

01:26:31.000 I don't want her help, and I don't think it will be helpful to have her pick this up.

01:26:36.560 But she wanted her Khaleesi moment.

01:26:39.160 She never got it.

01:26:40.740 Guess what?

01:26:41.160 she didn't get it today either. $400,000 will probably be handled by insurance and he won't

01:26:47.660 pay a penny, but even if he had to, that's something I believe he could handle. Unbelievable.

01:26:52.880 What a great, great result for Justin Baldoni. Congratulations to him because he fought hard

01:26:58.500 and he won. He won. Good for him. Thank God, frankly, because I think she made up the whole

01:27:03.240 thing. She was absolutely beastly to him and should be held to account. She should not be

01:27:07.460 cast. We should not be supporting her at the box office. She'll be fine. She's got Ryan Reynolds,

01:27:11.700 probably has a billion dollars in the bank, so they'll be fine. Okay. Melissa Gilbert,

01:27:17.740 speaking of Hollywood actresses, I've had it with this gal. I mean, she was a good Laura Ingalls

01:27:24.040 in Little House on the Prairie, and that is how I will try to remember Melissa Gilbert,

01:27:27.560 not the outrageous adult she's turned into. Now, her husband, Timothy Busfield, is currently on

01:27:34.940 trial for allegedly sexually abusing two young boys, starting at the age of seven for those

01:27:42.160 children while they are on his set of a television show that he used to executive produce and direct.

01:27:47.880 We have talked about this case at length. I will be the first to tell you just as soon as it came

01:27:52.600 out, we reported at that moment, the parents of the two boys are grifters, in my opinion.

01:27:59.320 They are, the dad has served time.

01:28:01.700 The mother has passed bad checks.

01:28:04.140 The crimes that they've been accused, he was disbarred, the dad was as well.

01:28:07.340 The crimes and misdeeds they've been accused of go right to whether they are truthful people.

01:28:12.700 And court after court has said they're not.

01:28:15.760 Very relevant.

01:28:17.280 I'm going to let this case play out in New Mexico and we'll report how it turns out when it's over.

01:28:22.280 I don't want to disparage the young boys.

01:28:23.760 Just because you're born to grifters doesn't mean you make up claims like this.

01:28:26.680 We must keep that in mind, but it certainly requires a massive asterisk when reporting

01:28:32.120 these allegations.

01:28:33.700 Okay, but that's not what this is about.

01:28:35.820 This is about the litany of young women who came forward against Timothy Busfield after

01:28:40.380 this case was brought in the same way the Me Too movement created streams of women who

01:28:48.380 would come forward saying, Me Too, Me Too, Me Too.

01:28:50.460 It did that in this case too, even though the original complainants, victims alleged,

01:28:54.680 are two little boys.

01:28:56.120 Now they're older. And it was shocking, the things that were alleged against Timothy Busfield.

01:29:03.440 And I'm going to go through it. But Melissa Gilbert has the nerve to come out in the wake

01:29:10.360 of the death of Hayden Panettiere, saying we, women of the industry, must bond together to stop

01:29:20.240 the abuse of young child actors and women in our industry. And she talks about not just Hayden,

01:29:30.440 but two other actresses who have died over the past year. Not like one from AIDS, one from

01:29:37.120 something else, like not from substance abuse or whatever. Like, I don't know exactly why she's

01:29:41.380 lumping in these other two, but she's saying, you know, it's high time for our industry to take care

01:29:47.640 of women prevent them from having to suffer being used, abused, and exploited. Okay. How is it

01:30:00.420 that that's happened from the time she was on Little House on the Prairie to now? I've got a

01:30:06.120 clue for you, Melissa. It appears to be thanks to people like your husband, who you are defending.

01:30:12.620 She's defending, she's standing by him even on the host of women who have come forward.

01:30:16.180 She was asked by by George Stephanopoulos and Good Morning America whether she was aware of the litany of women who have come forward against him.

01:30:25.160 OK, it's not just one or two. By my count, it is. Let's see.

01:30:30.500 One, two, three, four, five, six, at least seven who have come forward saying when they were young.

01:30:40.960 in some instances, 16, 17, he, her husband, who she's standing by, shoved his hands down

01:30:48.920 their pants, physically or sexually assaulted them in his trailer, at his theater, on set

01:30:55.780 someplace. I mean, this woman, the gall, like, however, did we get to this point where women

01:31:01.640 are being serially abused? Why don't you ask Timothy, Melissa? He could really help us out.

01:31:07.380 Oh, wait, you don't give a shit about anything involving him.

01:31:11.540 It's just something that you don't have any connection to that you would like to condemn.

01:31:15.920 That's not how it works.

01:31:17.540 You're going to have to sit this one out, Mel.

01:31:20.460 Listen to what she told Stephanopoulos after the litany of women came forward.

01:31:24.260 This was, um, I don't have the date in front of me.

01:31:26.580 Let's say, yeah, I do.

01:31:27.280 April 6th.

01:31:27.960 Watch.

01:31:29.060 The criminal complaint also includes references to two women who had accused Timothy of sexual assault back in 1994 and 2012.

01:31:36.200 he settled one of the cases. Were you aware

01:31:38.820 of these cases before? No.

01:31:40.280 The criminal complaint? I got

01:31:42.780 this one. I need to

01:31:44.780 make something really abundantly clear.

01:31:47.300 These allegations have been

01:31:48.740 out in the ether for a very long time.

01:31:50.640 That means you knew about them. When Tim and I got together

01:31:52.880 the internet existed. I didn't

01:31:54.860 go into my relationship with him blind.

01:31:56.880 I am neither naive nor am I complicit.

01:31:59.040 I talked to him about it. I asked

01:32:00.720 him questions about it. I heard his side of the story

01:32:02.700 which no one has ever heard, which is the truth.

01:32:04.540 And when the time is right, and that is not now, Tim will tell the truth of all of these past allegations when he needs to.

01:32:12.900 Okay, let's just go through them.

01:32:16.020 All right, a little reminder on exactly what we're talking about.

01:32:18.920 All right, 1991, then 26-year-old Claudia Christian, this is reported by The Mirror, who is now 60, but at the time was, I don't know, 1991.

01:32:30.900 when she was mid twenties, I think, um, claim Busfield attacked her while they were rehearsing

01:32:36.360 a scene in his trailer for the 1991 TV movie strays. Uh, they found her police interview.

01:32:43.680 The mirror did. She said Busfield seized her, tossed her against a wall and began kissing her

01:32:48.240 quote. He had an erection and he shoved his tongue in my mouth and I pushed him off and I ran out of

01:32:54.000 the trailer. She told the U S she told the mirror, they, they reached out to her that she felt angry

01:32:59.780 with herself when she heard news of Busfield's search warrant for not coming forward sooner.

01:33:04.360 However, she came to the conclusion little would have been done if she had spoken up,

01:33:07.920 probably because of people like Melissa Gilbert, who decide to effectively call you a liar and

01:33:12.420 dismiss your account. The believe all women crowd is falling down on the job. That's one. Okay,

01:33:19.220 she was 26, Claudia Christian, when it happened, allegedly. 1994, I should say up front, he denies

01:33:24.980 all of these. 1994, an unnamed 17 year old. This is a person who was an extra on the set of Little

01:33:31.880 Big League in which he starred. She sued in Los Angeles Superior Court claiming Busfield had

01:33:37.640 assaulted her, served her alcohol, groped her, attempted sex with her in his trailer. He denied

01:33:44.120 it and then countersued for extortion. They settled the case privately. He then tried to

01:33:49.120 bring a defamation bid against her lawyers that got thrown out, leaving him to foot nearly

01:33:54.520 $150,000 in costs. No charges were filed. Okay, so there we have, so far we have a 26-year-old

01:34:03.020 who claims that he assaulted her, and now a 17-year-old on the set of Little Big League

01:34:07.880 who said he assaulted her. In 1994, Eliza Roberts, who is the sister-in-law to Julia Roberts,

01:34:16.160 She's married to her brother, her brother, Eric Roberts.

01:34:22.860 She claimed that Busfield allegedly sexually harassed and humiliated her.

01:34:28.060 She said she submitted this testimony in support of a 17-year-old girl from Minnesota,

01:34:34.440 this is the one I just reported on, who accused him of sexually harassing her on the set of Little Big League.

01:34:39.780 So she heard this and she said, I got to come forward and tell the truth about him

01:34:43.100 because, yes, I too can attest that he's a sexual pervert

01:34:46.220 and I'm not going to let this 17-year-old twist in the wind.

01:34:49.320 In her deposition obtained by the Daily Mail,

01:34:52.500 Roberts testified that Busfield, 68, was a creep

01:34:56.180 who, quote, compulsively chased after women.

01:34:59.460 Again, she's the wife of Julia's brother, Eric, Julia Roberts.

01:35:02.720 She offered her sworn statement along with five other unidentified women

01:35:06.600 in support of the 17-year-old's lawsuit.

01:35:09.480 So I don't even know whether those five overlap

01:35:11.280 with the seven or so I've just listed

01:35:13.860 or I told you I have in front of me.

01:35:15.380 God only knows how many there are,

01:35:17.160 but there were at least five who came forward

01:35:19.880 when the 17-year-old sued to say,

01:35:21.980 me too, Timothy.

01:35:23.760 In that case, it was settled out of court,

01:35:25.480 as I told you.

01:35:27.180 She claimed, Eliza did,

01:35:28.940 Busfield tried to cajole her into having sex with him,

01:35:32.160 pompously insisting that he would, quote,

01:35:33.800 be so great in bed for her,

01:35:35.340 while complaining that his then wife,

01:35:37.040 this is before Melissa,

01:35:38.420 was a lousy fuck, excuse me.

01:35:41.180 Three of the other women who submitted statements, also obtained by the mail, were involved in the production of Little Big League 2.

01:35:47.840 Two of them testified that Busfield hit on them in bars in a persistent, unsettling, and aggressively sexual manner.

01:35:55.300 So that is one, two, three, at least, on the set of Little Big League, who claimed he was harassing them, sexually harassing them, at least one of whom was a teenager.

01:36:06.020 And then others coming forward to say Me Too, including Eliza Roberts, and that's to say nothing of the 26-year-old who kicked this whole thing off saying in his trailer on the TV movie Strays while they were rehearsing a scene, which leads me to the next allegation from 1999.

01:36:23.560 There was a 16-year-old. Court documents allege he sexually abused a 16-year-old girl while she was auditioning, here we go again, on the sets of his movies, his TV movies, his big screen movies, in his trailer, in the midst of a different kind of movie.

01:36:43.800 And now alleging here, in his theater, it was called the B Street Theater, while she was auditioning a 16-year-old.

01:36:53.760 It was his theater.

01:36:55.720 He was 43.

01:36:56.980 She was 16.

01:36:58.600 She reported he kissed her, put his hands down her pants, and touched her privates.

01:37:03.100 The defendant begged the family, meaning Busfield, not to report it to law enforcement if he received therapy.

01:37:08.580 The father was a therapist himself of the 16-year-old and thought, okay, that's a reasonable thing to do.

01:37:14.520 I will.

01:37:15.100 I'll have mercy on him.

01:37:16.780 That father gave an interview, which we have here on camera in part, I think it's Inside Edition, Deb, right?

01:37:23.720 Take a listen to the father.

01:37:25.440 This is earlier this year.

01:37:27.600 He's a serial pedophile predator.

01:37:29.920 My daughter was accepted into the B Street Theater internship program, and that was a big deal in those days.

01:37:38.200 You got to perform in front of, you know, an Emmy Award winning actor, Tim Busfield.

01:37:45.060 He says about four months into her internship, Busfield asked his daughter to clean his office.

01:37:50.880 She climbed a little ladder and Tim was below her looking up.

01:37:54.480 She told me she was pulled down.

01:37:56.620 He spun her around.

01:37:58.820 It was reported that he kissed her.

01:38:00.360 It wasn't a kiss.

01:38:01.740 It was a violation.

01:38:03.140 He says Busfield aggressively touched his daughter all over.

01:38:06.440 The dad tells me that his daughter pushed Busfield away and screamed and that Busfield told her to be quiet or people would hear her.

01:38:15.560 When you confronted Timothy Busfield, what happened?

01:38:18.900 Tim began to cry. He started talking to me about how he was remorseful.

01:38:24.440 Tim begged me not to go to the police.

01:38:27.060 He says Busfield promised to seek therapy.

01:38:29.820 The dad, who's a therapist himself, says he agreed, a decision he now regrets.

01:38:35.800 You didn't go to the police.

01:38:37.180 No, I did not.

01:38:38.160 This is why I feel so guilty.

01:38:39.960 This man needs to go down.

01:38:42.060 He is a bad, a bad apple.

01:38:45.640 Okay, back to Melissa Gilbert.

01:38:47.120 I don't know how abuse continues in Hollywood.

01:38:49.900 How?

01:38:50.360 How does this keep happening?

01:38:51.780 Melissa, why don't you chat about it over dinner tonight?

01:38:56.660 You don't have to get your union.

01:38:57.940 She's like, let's get the union involved.

01:38:59.420 Let's create a support group with all former child actors like Drew Barrymore and Sarah Jessica Parker.

01:39:05.220 just sit down at dinner. You can do it over cocktails tonight. Start at home. It's not

01:39:09.980 going to be hard. Trust me. You can get a whole host of reasons why this keeps happening from

01:39:15.320 the man across the plate from you. Let's keep going. An unnamed 28-year-old via police affidavit

01:39:22.800 reported that he allegedly battered her in an L.A. movie theater, slipping his hands under her

01:39:28.460 clothes, touching her genitals for four minutes. Prosecutors chose not to bring criminal charges

01:39:33.000 in this case. He called it consensual. There was no arrest and no lawsuit, but she was upset

01:39:38.180 enough she went to the cops. Date unknown via KOAT, the ABC local in Albuquerque. A woman said

01:39:46.200 she encountered Busfield while getting books for her kids. She claimed he followed her to her car

01:39:50.440 and began graphically talking to her. It was very bizarre. It was very disturbing, extremely

01:39:55.500 aggressive, totally uninvited on my part. I didn't understand why he just suddenly went there and I

01:40:00.180 tried to say, okay, I'll talk to you later. I have to go. It was relentless. I rolled up my

01:40:04.280 window. She claims Busfield then followed her to another business trying to finish the conversation.

01:40:10.280 I've got one more and I've got to talk about what Melissa Gilbert is saying about Hayden

01:40:16.540 Penetier now. So I'm going to do what I can in the next minute and then we'll steal a couple

01:40:20.400 minutes of the next hour and continue this. 2017, his former assistant comes forward, 22 years old.

01:40:28.780 Now he's in his 60s, and he's apparently allegedly still doing this.

01:40:33.380 She said, or he was at least in his late 50s,

01:40:36.620 he kind of touched me on my thigh in the car.

01:40:39.080 I was 22.

01:40:40.020 He was my boss.

01:40:40.840 I felt very uncomfortable.

01:40:42.260 The comments he made toward me were pretty uncomfortable.

01:40:44.960 I remember feeling very early on.

01:40:46.960 I didn't necessarily feel safe alone with him.

01:40:49.100 He would push my shoulders, give me kind of unwanted touch.

01:40:52.760 She said during a trip to Traverse City for a film festival,

01:40:56.600 he hit on her.

01:40:57.340 This is his assistant.

01:40:58.780 and wanted her to stay late and drink with him, she declined his advances.

01:41:06.120 How, however, does this keep happening, Melissa?

01:41:10.020 How, these poor, aspiring and actual actresses in Hollywood who get used and abused by the men in your industry

01:41:18.960 and then disposed of as though they're nothing.

01:41:21.840 One final word on it when we come right back.

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01:43:30.400 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

01:43:32.460 I've got some exciting news.

01:43:34.660 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

01:43:37.820 It's called the Megan Kelly Channel,

01:43:39.080 and it is where you will hear the truth,

01:43:40.940 unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

01:43:43.980 Along with the Megan Kelly Show,

01:43:45.080 You're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics and many more.

01:43:53.400 It's bold, no BS news only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111 and on the Sirius XM app.

01:44:04.600 OK, so enter Melissa Gilbert, which she she shouldn't have entered at all.

01:44:08.640 She should have just kept her mouth shut and stayed over there dealing with their considerable problems that they already have in his existing criminal case.

01:44:16.620 But no, she's got to weigh in.

01:44:18.420 She's got to offer her two cents because it's very important to Melissa Gilbert to be seen as a champion of women, even though she's not.

01:44:26.720 Here's what she writes.

01:44:28.140 I mean, she's not going to believe this on her sub stack.

01:44:31.460 Enough is enough.

01:44:33.980 How is it possible that no one in the mainstream media has picked up on this?

01:44:37.000 Within one year, Michelle Trachtenberg, Davey Chase, and Hayden Panettiere have died.

01:44:44.180 Three former female actors, female child actors of the same generation are gone,

01:44:48.540 tragically, heartbreakingly, agonizingly too soon.

01:44:52.460 Okay, she adds, I call them female actors because the term actress to me

01:44:57.820 is as misogynistic as calling a female doctor a doctress.

01:45:05.680 You're an idiot.

01:45:07.000 they are gone. And the question I have been turning over and over in my head is why,

01:45:12.460 why are these sweet, wildly talented, vibrant, vital young women gone? And why does this all

01:45:18.780 feel so personal to me? Okay. Now, first of all, why, why are they gone? They're gone

01:45:25.200 because Michelle Trachtenberg died at the age of 39 in February of 25 from complications

01:45:30.980 from diabetes. That's why she's gone. Like, it's very sad, but I don't think there's anything

01:45:38.160 Hollywood can do about it. Then there's DeVay Chase, who died on June 16th at the age of 36.

01:45:44.040 She was, she voiced Lilo in Lilo and Stitch. She died of AIDS, which is awful and should be

01:45:52.940 preventable. But I have no idea how we're pinning that on Hollywood either. There's nothing in her

01:45:58.200 background about her being sexually abused in any way. So I'm, again, I'm open-minded,

01:46:04.320 but you're not getting me there. Hayden Penetier, yes, absolutely. Put into acting at too young an

01:46:11.080 age by Hollywood moguls? No. Her mother, by her mother, Melissa. Like, it's not great. Hollywood

01:46:20.000 sucks. It's disgusting, toxic industry, much like news. But like, it's her parents who put her into

01:46:26.600 it. The reason I wasn't on Little House on the Prairie is because my mom loved me and kept me

01:46:32.380 at home and sent me to school like a normal child. Like the reason Hayden wound up as she did is

01:46:38.180 because her mother made a very different choice and they wound up loathing each other per Hayden's

01:46:43.500 book. So here she goes on. Okay. Why, why, why are these, you know, sweet young women gone? And why

01:46:51.260 does it all feel so personal to me? It feels personal because I was them. She writes, we are

01:46:56.840 all members of the same tribe, female, former child performers. And when one of us dies, it runs

01:47:03.860 through all of us like an electrical current. It ran through you like an electrical current when a

01:47:09.700 former child actress died of diabetes. Like what did they serve her too many sugary drinks on the

01:47:16.280 set? Where are you going with this? It's tragic that a young person, a woman in her 30s, ever

01:47:22.880 dies. That has nothing to do with Hollywood, lest you know something you're not revealing in your

01:47:28.260 substack, and I'm open-minded to hearing that. Okay, then this, here we go. She posits the

01:47:34.620 reason. Okay, she says, listen to this, we all know the stories of how the entertainment industry

01:47:39.900 uses abuses exploits and then throws away its youngest but for some reason this trend is

01:47:49.540 getting worse yes whatever could the reason be could it be possibly like one of the things

01:47:55.920 serial perverts in hollywood who actually use and abuse them on the set in their trailer on

01:48:02.260 the audition stage and then call them liars publicly when they're they actually in some of

01:48:07.620 these cases, you know, have gone to the police, have eyewitnesses, have five other women who want

01:48:11.780 to come forward to say the same thing happened to me. Could that be it? No. What does Melissa

01:48:15.660 think? My thinking is that it's tied to the invention of mobile phones. It's the mobile

01:48:23.700 phone that's to blame. I don't, I don't think that causes AIDS or diabetes. I, I, you know,

01:48:31.680 I, I'm not a techie. I don't read wired. I find them very woke and annoying, but, um, maybe again,

01:48:37.600 maybe she knows something I don't know about the mobile phone causing the use of abuse and

01:48:44.740 exploitation in Hollywood. She goes on about how we used to have privacy, but now we go to

01:48:52.340 restaurants, clubs, and paparazzis everywhere. Everyone is a paparazzo. There's no privacy.

01:48:58.800 The media uses it for clickbait and they profit. The voracious tabloid happy public eats it up

01:49:03.880 with a spoon so they can feel better about their own lives. Now it's your fault. You're in a greedy,

01:49:09.040 needy public looking at pictures. You shouldn't. You put down that National Enquirer. Put down

01:49:14.480 that Star Magazine. Shame on you. You're to blame. That girl got diabetes and you, you are the

01:49:19.420 problem. I'm like, this is crazy stuff. She's mad because her husband's on trial for being an

01:49:25.720 alleged pedophile. That's what she's mad about. I get it. That's probably extremely upsetting.

01:49:30.200 The problem is not the cell phones. It's not. They're not good. The cell phone's been a terrible influence on mental health for everyone. I concede that point. But when we're trying to get granular and diagnose what happened to the young Hollywood actresses, I'm going to guess that's about number 17 on the list, if it's there at all.

01:49:50.760 she says the real haunting question, the question haunting me is how do we fix our end? How do we

01:49:58.260 fix or end this before someone else dies? Then she asks, where is our union in all of this?

01:50:05.020 What is the SAG union going to do about diabetes? And frankly, what could it have done about

01:50:12.720 Hayden Panettiere, whose problems were drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic violence,

01:50:21.840 a mother who didn't love her. But, you know, other than a couple of incidents, like offset

01:50:28.660 that she alleged, like that unknown D-list actress allegedly saying, get into bed with that guy on

01:50:35.720 some ship. But that's not like, we're not talking about the Hollywood director and the casting

01:50:40.220 couch and Harvey here, all of which is a huge problem, a conceited. I'm not trying to say

01:50:45.260 otherwise, but in the cases that she's raising that have really gotten her so outraged,

01:50:49.640 this stuff actually wasn't to blame. So I'm really not following her, except I am,

01:50:54.340 because I know this is all just a cover for her to try to look like she's an avenger of victims,

01:50:58.760 when in fact, she's married to somebody who appears to be a serial victimizer.

01:51:03.240 Again, he's denied the claims. Not talking about the trial right now, even that criminal trial,

01:51:08.320 Again, talking about these women, the litany of women who she completely dismisses to George

01:51:13.640 Stephanopoulos, completely.

01:51:15.860 Then she goes on to say the following.

01:51:17.480 Oh, she wants to get everybody together.

01:51:19.200 Drew Barrymore, Ellen Dakota Fanning, Jodie Foster, Brooke Shields, Sarah Jessica Parker,

01:51:22.900 Reese Witherspoon.

01:51:23.980 I don't know.

01:51:24.520 A bunch of others I've never heard of.

01:51:26.080 And she wants it.

01:51:27.280 No one's going to do this for us.

01:51:28.480 Maybe one solution is for us.

01:51:30.780 And I love how she wants to include herself like in the company of Drew Barrymore, Sarah

01:51:35.560 Jessica Parker, Jodie Foster.

01:51:37.560 She can't lick their boots.

01:51:39.100 Those other women have gone on to have thriving, great adult careers as well.

01:51:44.500 You're not on that list, sweetheart.

01:51:45.960 They're not going to take your call.

01:51:47.460 I have news for you.

01:51:49.240 Then she says we should all get together and we should share ideas and ways we might be

01:51:54.960 able to lobby to support these young women.

01:51:57.100 Okay, I'm going to help you.

01:51:58.540 If they actually do talk to you, I got a suggestion for the kickoff meeting.

01:52:02.000 How about when they come forward and say that they have been physically abused on an audition in somebody's trailer or on a stage, we listen to them and at least engage in a good faith attempt to believe them.

01:52:19.240 OK, that's your your side's rules.

01:52:21.160 Believe all women.

01:52:22.180 I don't say that.

01:52:22.960 I say, yes, good faith attempt to listen and probe.

01:52:26.560 That's that's what they're entitled to.

01:52:28.340 and I would give. You're saying none of them is true because my husband said they're not true.

01:52:34.640 OK, he lost his defamation case against the lawyers who brought that one girl's claim.

01:52:40.180 He had to pay their attorney's fees because his claim was deemed so frivolous.

01:52:45.100 Your own assistant, who knows you too well, alleges he's continuing the pattern

01:52:49.580 up until recent years. This is like in Tim's late 50s. He was allegedly doing that to the

01:52:56.000 assistant. And I'm thinking like, I haven't seen Eliza Roberts, sister-in-law of Julia running all

01:53:01.980 over America, just randomly accusing men. But she did seem pretty animated about your husband as

01:53:07.460 she and five witnesses came forward to support the 17 year old claiming he'd, she'd been abused

01:53:12.320 on the set of little big league and multiple others did too. So I just, I'm thinking this

01:53:17.520 would be square one for stopping the abuse and the patterns, Melissa, as you're going to share

01:53:23.380 ideas and ways we might be able to support these young women. Maybe we sit down, she goes on,

01:53:29.740 with the heads of the studios and the networks and have real conversations about mitigating

01:53:34.660 exploitation. However, could we, again, again, this is so, all right. So why do I even care

01:53:44.160 about what Melissa Gilbert is saying? Because you have to see the glowing coverage that this

01:53:48.120 generated for her. Like people, completely lazy ass reporters not doing their homework.

01:53:56.160 USA Today. Melissa Gilbert calls for real change after Hayden Panettiere death. People Magazine.

01:54:01.320 Melissa Gilbert advocates for better protection of child stars in the wake of Hayden Panettiere's

01:54:04.780 death. Deadline. Melissa Gilbert calls on unions to protect child actors after Hayden Panettiere's

01:54:08.660 death. Something's got to be done. Hollywood Reporter. Same. TMZ. They didn't even mention

01:54:14.800 the allegations against Busfield. At least those other publications at least mentioned that he's on

01:54:18.980 trial right now for alleged child molestation. The TMZ didn't even mention that. It seems like

01:54:25.180 you should mention. The only one who got it right, the only one, was the Daily Mail.

01:54:31.020 This is their headline. Little House on the Prairie's Melissa Gilbert calls on Hollywood

01:54:35.260 to protect child stars after Hayden Penetier's death while her own husband is accused of

01:54:39.880 onset molestation. They put it right in the headline, and that is the correct thing to do.

01:54:46.500 So I do think there's a massive problem in Hollywood with the exploitation of children,

01:54:53.120 with the serial sexual abuse of young women, and more mature women as well in many cases.

01:55:00.380 I don't think Melissa Gilbert is the answer to that problem. I think her hands are too unclean.

01:55:06.680 She's been too knee-jerk defensive

01:55:08.140 of what I think is her pervert husband.

01:55:10.980 And I think most of us just want to see

01:55:12.620 Melissa Gilbert skulk away

01:55:14.540 and stop pretending that she hasn't been

01:55:17.080 hashtag part of the problem because she has.

01:55:19.680 We saw it in that Stephanopoulos exchange.

01:55:23.040 That will conclude my thoughts on half pint.

01:55:26.140 That's how I'll remember her.

01:55:27.600 I enjoyed those years.

01:55:28.780 And we'll see you again tomorrow

01:55:30.240 when we are joined by the one, the only Dr. Leonard Sachs.

01:55:34.520 He's back on with his new book,

01:55:36.240 Love this guy.

01:55:37.220 This is the child expert and parenting expert.

01:55:42.140 And every time we have him on,

01:55:43.220 my email explodes with gratitude from moms and dads

01:55:47.060 who just find his wisdom plentiful and spot on.

01:55:50.460 Okay, look forward to that.

01:55:51.700 And I will see and talk to you all tomorrow.

01:55:55.020 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:55:56.960 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:55:59.740 today's episode was brought to you by super sure

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 26, 2026

Every Key Moment From the Lindsay Clancy Trial, Blake Lively's Final Humiliation, and Brian Entin's Dispatch From Clancy Courtroom ｜ Ep. 1386

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