The Megyn Kelly Show - What the Lindsay Clancy Trial EXPOSES About Society, North West's Disturbing Look, and Hayden Panettiere Blame Game, with Dr. Drew ｜ Ep. 1385

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00:01:00.760 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.460 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Happy Tuesday.

00:01:17.060 Well, today we've got updates for you on Hayden Penetier and what's going on with Brad Pitt's

00:01:21.760 daughter. But first, the trial that's been riveting the nation, the murder case against

00:01:26.620 Lindsay Clancy, now winding down. Clancy admitted that she killed her three children,

00:01:32.300 five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Callan in January of 2023,

00:01:38.000 but she has pleaded not guilty thanks to mental disease or defect. Her lawyers arguing that she

00:01:45.000 had postpartum psychosis, which left her unable to understand what she was doing was wrong.

00:01:51.700 There is dispute about whether, in fact, she was suffering from psychosis or not.

00:01:57.520 Prosecutors acknowledge that she was having mental health issues, but psychosis is something

00:02:03.460 that's particular, and their experts over on the prosecution team have said that is

00:02:08.920 not something that typically affects women eight months after birth, and now we're getting

00:02:14.580 into the testimony about whether she did or did not hear alleged voices.

00:02:19.740 Prosecutors yesterday calling forensic psychologist Dr. Kirk Heilbrin to the stand, who who cast doubts on Lindsey Clancy's claims on this front about did she hear voices or did she just hear her own internal thoughts as she decided to kill her own children?

00:02:40.040 Watch.

00:02:41.180 The way she described this as happening is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before,

00:02:47.780 experienced an hallucination.

00:02:50.300 And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes

00:02:57.680 or so that it took to kill the children.

00:03:02.920 and to put it mildly that would be a very very unusual

00:03:10.300 pattern or or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about uh very unusual i've been doing

00:03:19.480 this kind of evaluation for many many years and i'm always very careful when someone tells me

00:03:27.400 that they experienced the symptom only during the course of committing an offense.

00:03:33.840 Of course, because it smells. It seems convenient. It seems made up in order to help get you off.

00:03:40.700 This is the prosecution's witness. It was called as a rebuttal witness as they finished their case.

00:03:46.060 They rested their case. The defense then rested its case. These are rebuttal witnesses meant to

00:03:50.800 rehabilitate the prosecution's main argument. The defense objected to Dr. Heilbrunn's testimony

00:03:59.740 when we covered this in AM update this morning. He brought up, the prosecution did not bring it up,

00:04:05.820 but he brought up a reference to Lindsay Clancy's Catholic faith here.

00:04:12.200 Could describe for us the evidence that you saw for suicide combined with altruistic filicide.

00:04:18.060 Yeah. Altruistic filicide is a term that's used that means killing your kids out of love so that you could basically they wouldn't have to suffer so you could prevent their suffering.

00:04:38.340 And further evidence that you saw for the suicide combined with altruistic filicide?

00:04:43.320 There was. One of the things that she said when asked about what happened is that in the course of strangling each child, she said, go to God, baby, go to God.

00:05:01.060 And that was part of her expectation that she and the children would be together in heaven with God.

00:05:09.020 She was raised as a Catholic, and this, as I understand, Catholic considerations, that's not necessarily what happens.

00:05:21.940 But when I asked her about that, when I said, isn't suicide a moral sin?

00:05:29.700 Yeah, can I see counsel over here?

00:05:34.220 Honestly, this is ridiculous.

00:05:36.140 This is much ado about nothing.

00:05:38.240 You're not allowed to get into the defendant's religion.

00:05:42.620 This is a passing reference on a discussion that they had, and they tried to blow it up into some huge deal with Clancy's attorney, Kevin Reddington, who he just—this came up a week ago.

00:05:55.020 There was a reference to her religion, and the question by some of her supporters was, oh, there should be a mistrial, and Kevin Reddington then said, why would I want a mistrial?

00:06:05.280 I don't want to start this thing all over again. But now he saw an opportunity to at least put a little chit in there for an appeal just in case this thing doesn't go his way.

00:06:16.100 And so like any good defense attorney, he decided to sort of do a masquerade, in my opinion, of being deeply offended by this passing reference to whether Catholicism allows you to kill your kids and then yourself.

00:06:29.400 a newsflash. It doesn't. Anyway, he called for a mistrial. Here it is.

00:06:36.620 I have to move for a mistrial reluctantly. The reason is that this is intentional misconduct

00:06:42.820 on the part of the prosecution. You know that this whole idea of injecting Roman Catholic faith,

00:06:50.900 the concept of mortal sin um into this trial occurred i don't even remember now about a week

00:06:59.700 ago and i objected but before i could get the objection out your honor had us at the sidebar

00:07:05.940 at the same time and very forcefully um in my opinion indicated to the jurors that they should

00:07:13.880 not consider that to any degree uh the fact that this is not the first time that it occurred during

00:07:20.700 the trial and the prosecution has previously brought up the concept of mortal sin. Based on

00:07:26.180 your ruling in the past, in conjunction with the fact that they brought it up again,

00:07:31.520 I believe it was intentional misconduct. And I feel that the court should grant a motion for

00:07:36.700 mistrial. Is anyone confused about Christianity and Catholicism finding suicide a mortal sin?

00:07:47.820 And is that a big news flash to your average juror in Massachusetts, which is heavily Catholic?

00:07:54.240 I think we're good. This is ridiculous.

00:07:56.860 The prosecutor noted that she didn't actually ask a question about religion and that really all the witness was doing was recounting a conversation he had with her about it.

00:08:05.560 She was trying to justify it, saying, oh, you know, I wanted them to go with God.

00:08:08.840 I was going to meet them there.

00:08:09.760 And he was saying, hey, doesn't are you so sure that's where you were going as as Catholicism recognizes suicide as being a mortal sin?

00:08:18.520 Whatever. This is all much ado about nothing.

00:08:22.440 What Catholicism says and her understanding of it.

00:08:26.680 I mean, this is not at the crux of the case.

00:08:29.380 She may have been saying, go with God, go to God, baby, as she killed her children.

00:08:36.060 That's relevant.

00:08:36.960 But even if this is altruistic filicide, you know, killing your children because you think it's what's best for them.

00:08:44.620 It's not a defense. That's not a defense. It's not a defense.

00:08:50.200 Judge William Sullivan rejected the motion for a mistrial, but he wasn't exactly pleased with the prosecution.

00:08:56.600 He testified she was raised as a Catholic.

00:09:00.360 And as I understand Catholic considerations, that's not necessarily what happens.

00:09:05.560 how is any of that proper at this point but oh it was not theatrics

00:09:15.320 i i'm not going to uh declare mistrial at this time what i am going to do is i'm going to bring

00:09:26.800 the jury in i'm going to tell them to disregard it i'm going to tell them that it's an inappropriate

00:09:32.180 area of inquiry, and that this witness's understanding of Catholic dogma or Catholic

00:09:39.220 teaching is irrelevant. Okay. Dr. Kirk Heilbrunn is back on the witness stand this morning as the

00:09:48.100 case moves toward its conclusion. We could have closing arguments as soon as this afternoon.

00:09:54.100 Joining me now to react to this case and more is board-certified internist and addiction

00:09:58.760 specialist, Dr. Drew. He is the host of Ask Dr. Drew. We are still a couple months out,

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00:10:45.000 989898 and get a free info kit and some solid information. The midterms will be here before

00:10:50.980 you know it, don't wait. Text MK to 989898 now. Dr. Drew, great to see you again. I mean,

00:10:59.720 what did you make of that? Well, first of all, it makes me sad you're not practicing law anymore

00:11:03.420 because we need you out there with a common sense approach to the reality. But there's so much to

00:11:09.480 unpack here. And you did a great job of sort of bringing up the relevance and the legal issues.

00:11:15.140 But let me talk a little bit about the medical stuff. And then I want to get at the philosophical

00:11:18.940 crux of what's going on in this case, which is that the altruistic filicide is somewhat

00:11:25.100 relevant from the standpoint that it's a common preoccupation in psychosis of various types,

00:11:34.000 not strictly speaking postpartum psychosis. And the doctor on the stand was absolutely correct.

00:11:39.260 To have a postpartum psychosis eight months after pregnancy is odd, and to have only transient

00:11:44.740 hallucinations is unusual, though we don't know the extent to which she was connected to reality

00:11:52.440 leading up to that, which is really all that counts. And the second issue that keeps getting

00:11:57.380 brought up that really should have been, seems to me, sort of discussed here on the stand,

00:12:02.460 which was, yes, it's unusual, but her medical management was also unusual. And it is certainly

00:12:09.020 a possibility that the medication she was receiving could have made the psychotic symptoms worse

00:12:15.780 because they clearly thought they were treating depression. And sometimes when people aggressively

00:12:20.700 treat depression in somebody with bipolar, and we know she has bipolar because she was on Lamictal,

00:12:25.580 which is a mood-stabilizing medicine that puts her... What's that? Someone concluded that she

00:12:31.240 was bipolar. The husband disputes that. Okay. They put her on meds for it. So someone

00:12:35.120 to diagnose that. And that increases the probability of postpartum psychosis dramatically.

00:12:41.660 The vast majority of postpartum psychosis is in bipolar patients. But could the medical team,

00:12:48.420 which was very fragmented, a lot of it was done by ER doctors, were completely

00:12:53.540 unequipped to do this. And is that a possible reason that this was so odd?

00:12:59.440 Yeah. I mean, I definitely see the medical community as having had a hand in where this wound up, for sure. I mean, it's just, who hasn't had the experience of, you know, one doctor tells you this, another doctor tells you that, they don't coordinate.

00:13:17.940 I mean, honestly, like, and I am somebody, I have means, I can pay out of pocket for these doctors, and it happens to me.

00:13:24.760 If you don't have good insurance and, you know, you're just dealing with the system as it's set up, you are definitely going to get conflicting medical advice.

00:13:34.900 I mean, I've never had it on, like, I don't take any, you know, mental health drugs, but, you know, just regular drugs on, like, whatever, your flu or whatever you're battling.

00:13:44.820 And this poor woman, as you see, like the number of people weighing in, the cacophony of meds that were thrown at her, you can see the cocktail was dangerous and not well managed.

00:13:55.980 But that doesn't mean she didn't plan, knowing what it would do and what it would mean, the murder of her children.

00:14:04.960 And, you know, you said that the extent to which she was connected to reality leading up to the murders is relevant.

00:14:09.740 I mean, yes, it is.

00:14:10.700 And it doesn't bode well for her because she sent the husband out.

00:14:13.880 She made sure he was going to go out to get meds.

00:14:16.700 She made sure he was going to go to a restaurant to pick up food, one that was farther away

00:14:20.300 from the one they normally went to.

00:14:22.440 And that all looks like somebody who was planning.

00:14:26.900 Right, for sure.

00:14:28.060 And I've seen several cases where women have done that in the belief that something horrible

00:14:33.320 was about to happen to their kids and themselves.

00:14:35.500 So they kill everybody to protect them from that.

00:14:38.080 That's the altruistic filicide.

00:14:39.480 That's what he's referring to.

00:14:40.500 It happens.

00:14:41.340 It happens more than we want to admit, both to schizophrenics and to postpartum psychosis.

00:14:46.120 It's an awful thing when it is missed.

00:14:48.840 And I want to make one quick pitch on what you said about the health care system.

00:14:52.740 Underlying the deficiencies is the evisceration of primary care.

00:14:56.960 There needs to be a well-trained primary care doctor supervising all of it, taking in the information, being the ombudsman for the patient and guiding him or her through it.

00:15:08.940 But most of my time these days is spent guiding my family and friends through the health care system.

00:15:15.100 And I think to myself, what would have happened if I hadn't been here?

00:15:18.800 It's just unbelievable how deficient the system is in terms of the care that people get.

00:15:25.300 Well, and I actually think we're seeing some of that play out in another way than the Lindsay Clancy trial.

00:15:33.280 In my experience, so I've been on the air, you know, with this show for about six years.

00:15:37.580 And in my experience, there is a vast delta between traditional medicine and functional medicine.

00:15:46.000 And you can wind up with diametrically opposing points of view from doctors in those respective camps to where you as a civilian have no idea what to do.

00:15:59.300 And it's a matter of life and death.

00:16:00.860 And a lot of the people who are just disgusted with what's happening to Lindsay Clancy, many of them are more functional medicine people who don't really believe in these psychotropic drugs to begin with and can't believe that this medical system just completely drugged her up so severely.

00:16:17.440 And then some are still in the old traditional medicine mindset and just don't understand why there wasn't, as you're pointing out, a primary care physician who was at the helm, who was running herd on these very serious drugs being poured into this woman's body.

00:16:33.420 100%.

00:16:33.940 And, yeah, I am very in favor of medical freedom.

00:16:37.500 COVID taught us that the government, much to my amazement, can get involved, that most doctors are employees now, and the employer can get involved.

00:16:46.360 you need to maintain the freedom for yourself and your family. But primary care needs to be a part

00:16:52.140 of that because no matter whether you choose somebody more functionally or allopathic oriented,

00:16:57.380 educate yourself and act accordingly. But there's something deeper in this case that I wanted to

00:17:02.660 get. It's a perfect day for me to talk to you about this because I've been thinking a lot about

00:17:05.920 this, which is a philosophical question, which is that when somebody engages in violent acts of any

00:17:13.200 type there's always reasons for it that are of a psychological psychiatric nature whether it's where

00:17:20.880 you were brought up or the violence you experience or the trauma you experienced in childhood

00:17:25.360 or something happened you know the but whatever it might be there are many different causational

00:17:31.840 influences on somebody being violent why do we draw the line right here is the question you know

00:17:40.080 why do we say, well, at psychosis, there's a reason she became psychotic. There was a mess

00:17:45.580 here. There was a lot of reasons, but you look at anybody being violent. I'm just proposing this as

00:17:50.860 a, as a sort of a polemic, which is everybody has horrible backgrounds when they are violent.

00:17:57.000 It's always the case. There's a lot of stuff there, psychiatrically, psychologically. Now,

00:18:01.960 why do we differentiate that from say this? That's a very good question. Yes, exactly. If

00:18:08.740 you picked your average gangbanger off of the streets in South Chicago and looked at his

00:18:15.660 childhood experience, you'd be horrified. Yes. Horrified. Exactly. And you would accurately

00:18:20.860 predict that he'd join a gang and participate in gang violence himself. But her, yeah, it's a

00:18:26.640 different story. Now we're like, we're looking for a more specific reason. Did the drugs do it?

00:18:32.280 What did it? That's an interesting question. It is. I mean, I don't. What do you think?

00:18:36.340 Because we expect more, I think, of mothers.

00:18:40.300 Yes, we do.

00:18:41.320 And a person like Lindsay, who doesn't seem to have had a lifetime of trauma leading up to this horrific act.

00:18:46.800 That's right. So there's one caveat, I would say, which is, you know, we in this country talk a lot about evil and we seem very confused about what that means.

00:18:55.200 But there are people who enjoy hurting other people that exist. That's evil. There's no doubt about it.

00:19:00.740 and there are people who end up hurting other people

00:19:03.780 and feel like they're either doing good

00:19:05.140 or they're justified in doing it,

00:19:06.860 but there are people who develop states,

00:19:10.140 brain states, where they're transiently violent.

00:19:13.620 That seems to be Lindsey Clancy's situation, seems to be.

00:19:17.180 You're trying to say she's a bad person, right?

00:19:20.100 She's somebody who would kill her kids.

00:19:21.300 That's a bad person.

00:19:22.540 Or she's somebody who is in a transient brain state,

00:19:25.840 or could she go into that state again?

00:19:28.020 That's really the question here.

00:19:29.260 I mean, to me, it's like from the law, from a legal perspective, we took a deep dive on self-defense cases when Nick Reiner got arrested.

00:19:40.940 Not self-defense, insanity.

00:19:43.400 And the standard is just so impossibly high.

00:19:49.420 I just don't see it here.

00:19:50.960 Like, I mean, you have guys who are basically frothing at the mouth, unable to put two sentences together, who are still psychotic when the cops show up.

00:20:01.460 You know, not like her.

00:20:02.940 I mean, she was injured, but as soon as she woke up from her, you know, her trauma, she was asking about herself, not her kids.

00:20:12.120 Those people are not allowed the not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect.

00:20:18.520 That's right.

00:20:18.920 finding. So like, I look at her, she's a lot closer to sane than they are. And I just legally,

00:20:25.160 the standard's so high, I don't see it. And I don't really care because she's ruined her life.

00:20:31.080 Her earthly time here is effectively over, whether she's alive or dead. You kill your three children,

00:20:37.560 I don't think you're ever going to be happy, ever. And if you are, most of us are going to

00:20:42.560 begrudge it to you. So I don't have a lot of care in my heart for what happens to Lindsay Clancy.

00:20:48.660 I don't care if she goes to the mental institution for the rest of her life, if she goes to a prison for some limited amount of time.

00:20:55.480 My lawyer friends are telling me she might be out on the streets earlier if she stays within the prison system than if she goes into a mental facility where they tend to hold you longer.

00:21:07.660 So that's, I mean, for people who really want to see her punished, query what they should be rooting for.

00:21:12.020 For me, I'm like, this woman's life is effectively over either way.

00:21:15.600 I completely agree with you. But let me I want to go back to the legal standard. It's really important to understand the medical standard, legal standard are completely different. And the legal standard is any evidence of consciousness of doing something wrong, essentially, and very state by state a little bit. But generally, it's almost impossible. That's why lawyers don't even try not guilty by reason of insanity, because you can't you can't prove it. It's impossible to say, because everybody has to plan whatever it is they're doing, even if it's just to get a machete.

00:21:43.000 And there it is.

00:21:43.700 Ah, he knew he was doing something wrong because he went to a criminal to get the machete.

00:21:47.080 Whatever.

00:21:47.760 All you have to do is the slightest evidence of doing you aware that you're doing something wrong or that other people would even understand it as something wrong.

00:21:56.680 And that's no longer insanity.

00:21:58.340 But, boy, you're bringing up some really interesting stuff.

00:22:00.480 And it also brings up the issue of there's a lot of heat around women sympathizing for her.

00:22:08.380 And people want to politicize that.

00:22:10.400 But I don't think it's a political thing, though.

00:22:11.840 I don't think so. Let's talk about that because I think a lot of people are deeply disturbed by

00:22:17.240 the nutcase so-called mothers out there. Okay. There are a lot of women who deal with postpartum

00:22:24.500 and it's a real thing and they get through it and they do what they need to. There's an

00:22:29.840 infinitesimal number of women who actually would murder their child resulting from postpartum

00:22:35.700 depression. But weirdly, there's a large number of women who will post a picture or video of

00:22:43.100 themselves with their beautiful baby online with the soundtrack of Kevin Reddington, the defense

00:22:49.600 lawyer, saying all the terrible things that, you know, Lindsay was feeling. And they're fine with

00:22:55.880 it. They're they're like showing themselves with their own child as though they might hurt their

00:23:02.200 child, just like Lindsay, because this is like somehow, you know, comet. It's horrifying. I think

00:23:08.640 the, I mean, 99.99% of the women out there, the only pictures we've ever taken with our child,

00:23:14.700 nevermind would consider posting, would be ones showing how much we adore and love and treasure

00:23:20.440 and protect them. So it's like completely turning the image of motherhood on its head. Do we have

00:23:28.080 an example that, Deb, you play it. Stand by. I'm completely overwhelmed, trying to take care of the

00:23:33.280 kids. I'm drowning every day. I feel guilty that I'm spending my family's money and not making any.

00:23:38.600 I feel like I spend way too much. She wrote that, right? I'm terrified of Callan getting sick. He's

00:23:43.740 a sick baby. A sick baby is miserable. He's sick now with a double ear infection, clearly has a

00:23:48.480 bellyache. It's miserable. I feel like the other kids are going to get him sick all winter long.

00:23:53.380 she wrote that like it's abusive to let the baby cry and not respond but i made the decision i did

00:23:59.060 it with cal it is way too much crying it's incredibly stressful she wrote that right

00:24:03.620 correct he's okay he will be okay oh people showing their little children their babies

00:24:10.280 and the captions on the screen read same me too lindsey your thoughts on it doc

00:24:15.760 I mean, it's mind boggling that they would think that identifying with that is something

00:24:24.540 that should be expressed publicly. But they're getting at two things, it seems to me. One is

00:24:30.960 the fact that to have thoughts of harming a baby is not uncommon, believe it or not. But you're

00:24:37.320 right. No one does it. But it's always something that women have, it's out of the shadows now with

00:24:42.800 this case. And so women are like, oh, maybe I'm not such a horrible person because I had that

00:24:47.740 thought. That's one thing. But on the other side, they seem to be saying, wanting acknowledgement

00:24:54.420 for how stressful and difficult mothering is, which it is. It's a tough job. And only mothers

00:25:02.620 can do it when there is a mom involved. The child wants mom a lot. And yeah, it's tough. It's

00:25:10.300 probably also tough for your spouse to keep everything together and supported and moving

00:25:14.980 things forward and making sure you're okay. It's hard to raise kids. And maybe we need to

00:25:20.680 help people understand that. And also, there's another feature in here that I wanted to bring up,

00:25:26.120 which is this country does not do well with ordinary misery. Ordinary misery is good.

00:25:34.820 It's how we develop and strengthen and develop grit.

00:25:38.580 When Dr. Freud arrived in this country, I like telling this story,

00:25:41.840 the reporters came to him and said,

00:25:43.000 what do you hope to understand here in this country?

00:25:45.000 He said, well, ultimately, I hope to understand the difference

00:25:47.620 between serious mental illness and ordinary misery.

00:25:51.320 Because it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

00:25:54.040 But in this country, look, we just went through the 90s and early 2000s

00:25:57.280 with the opioid thing.

00:25:58.360 No pain in America.

00:25:59.700 No one should ever feel any pain in America.

00:26:02.140 Here's 60 Vicodin, everybody.

00:26:03.460 and now we're doing the same thing with other sources of discomfort.

00:26:08.780 Ordinary misery is good for us.

00:26:12.160 I have a question for you on this.

00:26:15.060 I don't really believe in, I don't know, what is it?

00:26:21.680 I don't believe in sitting around thinking about how miserable you are.

00:26:26.180 I don't believe it's good for you.

00:26:29.260 So like when I hear you say it's hard, I mean, I recognize that it is hard for a lot of women.

00:26:34.380 For a lot of other women, it's not hard.

00:26:36.500 It's actually really joyful most of the time.

00:26:38.900 And when the hard moments come, they have a very good perspective on them because the vast majority of it is so joyful and wonderful.

00:26:47.060 um now i don't know how helpful it is as a mental health approach to say to the women who have

00:26:57.320 decided that new motherhood is incredibly difficult right they've put it nine out of ten

00:27:03.800 on the scale of difficulty how helpful it is to validate that as opposed to helping them shift

00:27:10.100 their mindset around it which is sure there are tough moments but overall so many blessings

00:27:17.080 associated with this and you should be focused on those like as a mental health tactic don't

00:27:21.900 disagree i don't disagree except we have done so much coddling that we've created a population that

00:27:29.800 avoided ordinary misery and does not have the resiliency and the adaptability and the emotional

00:27:36.860 regulatory system in place plus our families have been a mess for like 30 years now and the family

00:27:42.780 the family unit is where people develop their capacity for emotional regulation and if you

00:27:48.700 don't have emotional regulation you haven't been exposed to other stressors along the way or you've

00:27:54.340 been in safe spaces the whole time is it any wonder that's a challenge like mothering is

00:27:59.980 overwhelming. Now, once we're there, you know, I would argue that we should use more services

00:28:07.180 because yes, it's good. Yes. So what you're saying is good. And for some, that will be enough,

00:28:10.600 but for others, they'll need to develop resiliency and emotional regulation.

00:28:15.400 Yes, I guess you're right. It depends on whether you're a healthy person to start

00:28:18.700 and whether you can control your emotions and your thinking and so on. I mean, it was sort of like,

00:28:23.780 it was a little bit embodied in the now infamous Tom Cruise, Brooke Shields kerfuffle back in the

00:28:31.520 day when she went on the Today Show and said she was suffering from postpartum. And she resorted

00:28:37.220 to some sort of drug to help her with it. And Tom Cruise went on after the fact and just berated

00:28:43.600 her because Scientologists don't believe, and Scientology obviously has got its issues. We've

00:28:48.760 covered them extensively on the show. But there is a strain of Scientology that is actually quite

00:28:53.640 good in my humble opinion. And it's the strain that says, A, you cut out people of your life

00:28:58.760 who are toxic. You know, you completely, I'm not endorsing Scientology. You also have to cut out

00:29:05.000 people who aren't Scientologists who are your family members, which is not good. But I'm just

00:29:08.840 saying, I like the part that says, if somebody's toxic to you, you completely otherize them in

00:29:16.140 your own life. You don't talk about them. You don't think about them. You don't let other people

00:29:19.660 mention them to you. You just completely cut what to you is a cancer out, which can be a very healthy

00:29:25.760 mental health option. And they're not big on drugs, especially when it comes to, you know,

00:29:32.840 mental health. And I gotta be honest, I'm not big on them either. Even these SSRIs, they seem to

00:29:38.320 cause depression. Once you get on them, you seem to get used to them. Then you have to up your dose

00:29:43.200 and then you have to try another one it seems like one cycle after another this is my my lay

00:29:47.120 person's opinion doc so again these are we're into some really interesting territory for which

00:29:51.680 there's no one answer okay but worth thinking about for everybody the way i think about it

00:29:57.220 for scientology is like they got a point you know stuff there there's stuff they bring up okay yeah

00:30:02.700 you got a point there uh and you know they they will often point at the psychosurgeries for which

00:30:07.920 somebody won a nobel prize and i i when i first started working in a psychiatric hospital the

00:30:12.520 first thing that happened is I acquired all the medical catastrophes that were left over from all

00:30:17.380 the psychosurgeries, which were catastrophic. It was ridiculous what we did. Anyway.

00:30:23.300 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Psychosurgeries, that to me is like lobotomy. I thought that was

00:30:27.940 like 1940s, 50s stuff. You're telling me like in your practice as a physician, you still saw

00:30:33.720 hangovers from that kind of thing? I was working at an old psychiatric hospital,

00:30:38.240 been there a hundred years it was like a museum of psychiatry and some of the chronic care patients

00:30:44.980 had had singulotomies or lobotomies in the late 50s and now they were in their 70s and i got them

00:30:53.380 as medical patients and i got to see the disasters that this all created and by the way no there was

00:30:59.820 never any long-term studies on lobotomy they don't know what they what happened i i blame the

00:31:04.840 neurosurgeons they stayed quiet during that whole catastrophe and i could tell by the way they were

00:31:09.600 writing about it they were just mortified that psychiatrists were going to the bedside how the

00:31:14.980 endocrinologist and p and pediatricians are staying silent now as we do this to children as we cut off

00:31:20.740 their body parts and sterilize them same thing complicit these things keep happening the opiate

00:31:25.020 addiction the psychosurgeries pot you know it's climate all these things have the same structure

00:31:30.380 to them. You get an evangelical group of physicians who go around and get control of the regulatory

00:31:35.460 organizations that then get into academia, that then mandate things, and doctors shut up. They're

00:31:40.720 afraid. We are universally afraid. Do you know how the opioid thing happened? It really got going

00:31:46.420 because they prosecuted physicians for inadequate treatment of pain, which is not malpractice.

00:31:53.340 That's a criminal and civil liability. Doctors immediately stopped prescribing opiates and sent

00:31:59.780 everybody to pain management who took the position that pain is what the patient says it is.

00:32:04.900 The fifth vital sign is pain, more important than your pulse, and off this thing went.

00:32:09.540 COVID, same structure. Dr. Birx runs around to every state government and gets control.

00:32:15.940 All of a sudden, masking shut down, school closures. These are things that were pushed.

00:32:21.620 And the government officials are, what's the term that they use in communism? The useful idiots

00:32:28.900 for all for all that but once it gets going it's very hard to stop but let me just talk

00:32:33.380 about pills we have another problem in this country back to dr freud and ordinary misery

00:32:38.020 which is we expect pills to make life better pills are not designed to make life better

00:32:45.140 doctors treat disease possibly syndromes and possibly i'm accepting sort of intolerable

00:32:52.180 symptoms but medications are only used when they are worth the risk and there's always huge risk

00:33:00.820 every time i open my prescription pad and we have lost track of that entirely pills only make things

00:33:07.380 better it's got to always have and you need and trying other things first like you're suggesting

00:33:12.420 i'm all for it i'm all for it as long as it's carefully managed and i don't even though i don't

00:33:18.580 I wouldn't take them myself, and I certainly wouldn't want my children taking them if they

00:33:22.840 ever needed them. I don't judge the people who do, because I do know some people who have taken them

00:33:27.340 and said that they were helped by them, so I don't have any judgment in my heart against them.

00:33:31.520 Megan, I'm going to interrupt you. It's a case-by-case basis.

00:33:33.040 I'm going to interrupt, not just case-by-case, but treatment when properly prescribed,

00:33:39.680 the outcomes are good. Treatment when the prescribing circumstance is a little vague,

00:33:45.520 you're more likely to have adverse outcome.

00:33:48.580 Right, prescribed and then managed.

00:33:51.160 Yes.

00:33:51.580 Like these drugs, like if your doctor's gonna put you on,

00:33:54.660 I don't know, a statin, whatever,

00:33:56.300 people go on those for years,

00:33:57.480 they go to an annual appointment with their physician,

00:34:00.800 it's all fine.

00:34:02.080 These drugs seem to require active management

00:34:06.800 by the psychiatrist who prescribes them

00:34:10.440 because they actually can cause more of the very thing

00:34:15.000 that they were prescribed to fix.

00:34:17.020 Right, so.

00:34:17.440 And the next thing you know, your patient's in a downward spiral.

00:34:20.120 And she was getting like, this one woman who was treating her seemed like an idiot who hadn't been out of medical school more than two minutes, who wasn't on the case.

00:34:29.620 Then she wound up in the care of physician's assistants who weren't even doctors.

00:34:36.140 No offense to physician's assistants, but there should be a psychiatrist managing psychiatric medicine.

00:34:42.840 And so, and she did see, I mean, I will say this for Lindsay Clancy.

00:34:46.560 she and the husband did seem to try to reach out for medical help like with these meds over and

00:34:54.340 over and over again and she wasn't keeping it a secret that she was having these issues she seemed

00:34:59.140 to have been jumping up and down saying for the love of god somebody please help yes and back to

00:35:03.840 my what i was saying about primary care you're not going to see doctors anymore in primary care

00:35:07.560 some look some physicians assistants and nurse practitioners are outstanding some are not but

00:35:12.760 you're not going to see doctors anymore that's what you're that the insurance company has made

00:35:16.280 sure to set it up that way they have eviscerated primary care i'm telling you the other thing is

00:35:22.380 primary care extenders and otherwise are the predominant prescribers of these medicines

00:35:29.160 and they are not trained to do it i was interested in the brain in psychiatry i arrived at the

00:35:36.640 psychiatric hospital was very enthusiastic about learning psychiatry i thought i knew something

00:35:40.920 about it. After a year, I thought, oh my God, I don't know anything. I need psychiatric consults

00:35:46.360 because it gets complicated. After five years there, I went, I'm never prescribing without a

00:35:50.620 psychiatric consult. And they almost are never asked for. And patients resist them. They resist

00:35:56.120 psychiatric consults. I don't want to see that. I'm not crazy. I don't want to see a psychiatrist.

00:36:00.140 Well, I love my therapist. I have said before, he's more like a life coach than he is a shrink,

00:36:05.300 But I can I can sum up his advice for all the listening audience. People are complicated. People are complicated. He's right. We are. We are. But but there but you you mentioned the the growing sort of what's going the mob that's growing around Lindsay Clancy. I am gravely concerned about mobs right now.

00:36:27.620 I predicted it. I wanted to write a chapter about it in a book because I saw the narcissistic turn.

00:36:33.920 I saw all the trauma in childhood, and I couldn't find a period of history where there was as much of that as pre-revolutionary France.

00:36:40.700 So I just deduced that there's going to be guillotines, there's going to be mobs, and we are in it.

00:36:46.160 And it's dangerous now. It's really—I woke up this morning feeling scared.

00:36:50.820 Thank you for saying that, because I've worried about this, Doc, because much in the same way when we see a suicide, you know, a very prominent public suicide, they tend to come in threes.

00:37:00.460 You know, it's almost always the case, just from a news person's perspective, that when you see one, then you see follow-up ones.

00:37:07.760 Remember, there was Anthony Bourdain and there was Kate Spade, and then we just had two others publicly.

00:37:13.120 But in any event, I worry about that dynamic affecting moms.

00:37:19.260 like the idea has been floated and and in a way blessed by these loons who are doing these videos

00:37:27.960 and like making lindsey clancy into some sort of a heroine there should be a fair amount of

00:37:32.820 condemnation and scorn even if you have some empathy for her and the mental health struggle

00:37:37.640 she went through i think we we must have a fair amount of condemnation and scorn well

00:37:42.360 I must tell you what I'm seeing, uh, in response to, and it's not that, uh, which is

00:37:50.440 men fleeing. I'm just seeing a male flight. I would call it, uh, from, from relationships.

00:37:59.960 Uh, you, you go on Instagram and X and you'll see all men. Like I don't, these women should not,

00:38:06.200 they don't, I don't want them to have my kids. I don't want these. I don't know, no, no, no,

00:38:08.760 they're right well and it's it's you know that 90 day fiancee show was prescient they're going

00:38:17.180 elsewhere to find women to be in relationships with and it has accelerated uh a lot of they

00:38:25.060 should what's it they should well they're doing it and it's they should why would you marry one

00:38:29.600 of these lunatics you you there any any man any man out there should marry somebody who is mentally

00:38:36.300 well i mean that has to be the first criterion you know like before you do anything what's her

00:38:43.540 family like what what's her background like how does she handle adversity stress sadness like

00:38:50.600 all of those things need to be like you can't you can compromise on like oh he's not as clever as

00:38:57.460 i'd like you know i'd like somebody with a sharper sense of humor you cannot compromise on basic

00:39:01.820 mental health. I agree with you. And there's a layer above that, which is there is a movement

00:39:10.540 to vilify men. And a lot of women have bought fully into it and then have strange expectations

00:39:16.880 about marriage and childbearing, as we were talking about earlier. And there's, I was, again,

00:39:22.460 maybe the algorithm is feeding me stuff, but I saw a ridiculous number of videos, women saying,

00:39:28.400 oh i'm just not feeling it anymore i just i love the guy you know yeah they're in a beautiful home

00:39:32.960 you know they're obviously he's very supportive of them financially and otherwise and uh i need

00:39:37.200 to end this i'm not kind of kind of not feeling it and then fast forward to a video of somebody's

00:39:41.440 the same woman sobbing like he doesn't want to be my friend anymore and i just and men think to

00:39:45.840 themselves honey you just ruined his life you destroyed this guy and of course he doesn't want

00:39:50.160 to be your friend and there's all this confusion going on in in women and men and their relationships

00:39:57.920 in this country it's not so much elsewhere so men are fleeing it's it's sad to see

00:40:02.500 i i completely agree this is one of the many reasons why dr jordan peterson's work has been

00:40:08.440 so important and his he'll fire right back at you if you play that card what about you how great

00:40:15.440 are you you think you're so great sister like you have no flaws what do you think led him to be so

00:40:20.060 apathetic or to wind up cheating he's not you know it's not about i'm not ready to do that i'm not

00:40:24.480 but it's also not about always blaming the man it's it's it is it's more that zone where

00:40:32.460 you know it's so it's so um disposable humans are disposable relationships are disposable

00:40:39.960 that that's a horrible quality we need to invest in relations this whole notion of building a

00:40:46.000 family people don't even talk about that when they get married they talk about weddings

00:40:50.660 You're going to be the head of a family that gets built, and you're going to build it, God willing, through generations.

00:40:57.360 And that is the function of those two people getting married.

00:41:01.240 That's why we do that.

00:41:02.460 Now, you don't have to have kids.

00:41:03.920 That's fine.

00:41:04.540 That's free country, all for it.

00:41:06.960 As we're seeing, many people shouldn't.

00:41:08.840 Right.

00:41:09.260 Right. And if you get to it, if you do do it, you've got to think about leading this unit that is the foundation of society.

00:41:18.600 And it's under attack. It's been under attack for quite a while.

00:41:21.720 Yeah. Some of that messaging, it has been apparent in these crazy videos that here's a little flavor of what we're hearing around the Clancy trial on this front.

00:41:33.700 It's not 10.

00:41:34.760 Every one of us that have roots that go back to the Salem witch trials,

00:41:38.960 we are freeing our ancestral bloodline by coming together for Lindsay Clancy.

00:41:44.280 That's why that shit is happening in Massachusetts.

00:41:46.500 It's happening right near Salem.

00:41:49.260 We are coming together and not letting our sister go down for a crime.

00:41:56.140 She didn't commit the rise of the matriarchy is here.

00:42:00.500 The patriarchy is fucking dead.

00:42:03.700 We will burn it at the stake.

00:42:07.040 I'm going to Sweden.

00:42:08.580 Spoken like a woman who doesn't have sons.

00:42:10.240 Right.

00:42:10.800 I'm going to Sweden.

00:42:11.660 I'm going to go to somewhere else, go to Thailand, find somebody somewhere else.

00:42:15.420 Fine.

00:42:16.060 That's what that's what a man thinks.

00:42:18.420 Russia, Eastern Europe, Europe, you know, like where you have more hardline women who

00:42:23.300 respect and love their men and understand like a family hierarchy and are fine with it.

00:42:27.380 But like, yeah, I would never want somebody I know and love to wind up with that crazy

00:42:33.100 But I, at the same time, I was such a moderate, Megan, I'm brutal this way in my own brain, which I get what she's saying. I get the point. I get, yes, yes, horrible things have happened to women, for sure, for sure. That doesn't mean that we should use, what, the court system as a means of getting justice for the Salem witch trial for women that were mistreated.

00:43:00.440 Salem witch trial, that was made up shit. There were no witches. They were pointing at normal female behavior and calling it witch-like behavior because of religious zealotry. And in this case, there's no dispute. She killed those three children. Absolutely no dispute.

00:43:15.520 i would say there's something even more sinister that they're not acknowledging is that the salem

00:43:19.360 wichita was a mass formation psychosis it was hysteria and i would argue that's what's happening

00:43:26.800 all over the place in this country for every little medical issue it's happened for cyclospora

00:43:31.440 it's happening for monkeypox is that everything is everything is a mass formation now that is

00:43:36.800 exceedingly dangerous it's it's the mob stuff i was mob behavior i was talking about i mean mob

00:43:41.840 job, crime syndicate. I mean, people are gathering and scapegoating. It's out of control right now.

00:43:49.000 It's very strange. It's a leftist phenomenon. It's not happening on the right. This is not

00:43:53.680 right-wing women, conservative women are not posting these videos. They are not falling for

00:43:58.780 this nonsense. They don't talk about men that way. This is a leftist thing. And I was saying the other

00:44:03.360 day that these women who are posting these videos that we're looking at together, you know, why are

00:44:09.360 they doing it? And I think it's because on the left, it's very popular to have every disorder

00:44:14.760 ever known to man, whatever it is, you've got it. And the more of them you have, the more special

00:44:21.380 you are, the more you get to talk about yourself, which is a very favorite pastime for this sort of

00:44:26.980 brand of women. And nothing, nothing, I've mentioned this to the audience, embodies this more

00:44:31.540 to me than this woman who was stopped on suspicion of DWI a couple of years ago. You got to watch

00:44:37.740 this drew but this cop is so respectful of her she's a nut but she she's one of them and you watch

00:44:47.340 i have like really bad social anxiety and stuff i get you

00:44:50.920 right back here please miss perry am i i'm non-binary so okay what do you go by

00:45:04.200 Kai. How can I refer to you tonight? Kai? Kai. Okay. Hey, I'm smelling alcohol. I know. How much have you consumed tonight? Like, probably three drinks. I need to run you through some tests right now. Stand facing me, please. But I just want you to know that I also have very bad social anxiety. You and me both. Okay. Okay. Any recent head trauma, traumatic brain injuries, anything I need to know about? Uh, mental, yes.

00:45:27.900 focus on my finger please i am you're just like trying to intimidate me i don't know how i'm

00:45:36.200 trying to do that this is the test as you know as an indigenous person and there's a bunch of

00:45:41.100 going around i'm sorry but it's just for me to be on my toes i get you can you remember that i told

00:45:50.080 you that i'm non-binary yeah i'll try my hardest i'll refer to you as kai right yes perfect i

00:45:57.880 I need to know if you have any injuries

00:45:59.380 or anything that would prevent you

00:46:00.380 from doing a standard walk or a turn tonight.

00:46:02.660 Mental health.

00:46:04.580 Any physical injuries?

00:46:07.040 Mentally, yeah, but no, I'm just saying.

00:46:11.220 Okay.

00:46:12.060 PTSD, pressure, anxiety.

00:46:14.280 I get you.

00:46:15.120 What else you want?

00:46:16.460 Can you not call me man, please?

00:46:18.460 I'm trying my hardest.

00:46:19.640 Okay, well.

00:46:20.740 Okay.

00:46:21.580 It means a lot to me.

00:46:22.760 I'm trying my hardest.

00:46:24.000 I don't feel like a man, so.

00:46:25.580 Okay.

00:46:26.420 It's kind of triggering.

00:46:27.340 right foot in front of your left nope go back i'm sorry but the whole man thing just like

00:46:32.000 i apologize let's see if we can move forward from it yeah i just want to tell you that i

00:46:37.560 suffer from really bad anxiety especially with generational trauma and ptsd around

00:46:45.620 white people and cops like

00:46:48.980 it's just

00:46:52.500 you're gonna get

00:46:53.800 I don't

00:46:55.140 don't resist

00:46:56.100 don't

00:46:57.060 listen to me

00:46:57.680 don't resist

00:46:59.200 don't

00:47:00.180 you're being a white man

00:47:01.360 and

00:47:01.700 don't

00:47:02.940 I followed all of your

00:47:04.700 like

00:47:05.480 I'm an indigenous person

00:47:08.200 like

00:47:08.540 you guys

00:47:10.140 you guys are

00:47:11.400 scaring me

00:47:12.400 there's nothing to be afraid of

00:47:14.200 yes there is

00:47:15.640 I just

00:47:18.000 I mean

00:47:18.420 you should be teaching off of this clip yeah i just look at that and i go oh what have we done

00:47:24.560 to this poor woman oh my god and it and it's not the cops yeah it reminds no it was the it was

00:47:30.780 christopher columbus and crew right right right that that is so damaging for people it reminds

00:47:37.300 me of some another point which is that for anxiety these days the treatment and for ocd in particular

00:47:46.040 the only treatment really that works is exposure therapy, exposing people to the stressors that

00:47:53.540 they are having anxiety about or exposing them to their obsessions, whatever they might be

00:47:59.760 in a systematic way that builds the resilience necessary to manage these, what she's describing,

00:48:07.140 you know, complex PTSD and anxiety, whatnot. There's no hope for her. Otherwise she's just

00:48:12.080 going to be completely incapacitated and i would not want that for her she's there she's basically

00:48:18.320 in a fetal position just to go through it one more time uh you're trying to okay first no first

00:48:24.700 she says i'm non-binary call me kai i have very bad social anxiety and mental trauma you're trying

00:48:30.080 to intimidate me i'm an indigenous person remember i'm non-binary i have mental health injuries i

00:48:35.780 have ptsd i have depression i have anxiety don't call me ma'am it's triggering the ma'am thing

00:48:41.360 that's what's forcing her to not perform well on the DWI tests. I have very bad anxiety. I have

00:48:47.580 generational trauma, PTSD around whites and cops. He tells her, don't resist. You're being a white

00:48:54.000 man. I'm indigenous. I'm scared. Yeah. I really hope Ms. Perry got arrested and the help that

00:49:02.940 she needs. But that walking fetal position woman is everywhere on the left, on the left,

00:49:12.500 Drew. And we see them. That's who's posting these videos. Well, two things. Underlying that

00:49:19.060 is a very significant feeling of rage. And that rage gets acted out through mob focusing on

00:49:28.920 scapegoats and projection. I see it in you. You're the horrible person. You're the rageful

00:49:34.920 one. You're doing this to me. That rage never gets addressed. But the other issue that's even

00:49:40.860 more concerning is that you watch what happens on social media because of this conversation.

00:49:49.440 The psychological community, the academic training community has been captured.

00:49:57.240 and i've been hearing from young psychologists there's actually something called what's it open

00:50:03.060 therapy or something to try to restore it save psychology from this phenomenon they take the

00:50:09.220 position that yes the reason people are having psychological distress is colonialism and

00:50:14.100 everything can be sent back to that oh my yes that's oh come on in the medical community they're

00:50:19.080 going with this academic training kids this way training young so it's possible that that all came

00:50:25.460 from a psychologist. You know, it makes sense because one of my doctors was telling me that

00:50:32.100 when he does rounds at the hospital now, they're not allowed to ask somebody if they're a man or

00:50:36.820 a woman. They can't. They can't. Like, they have to, like, check the chart and figure it out on

00:50:43.300 their own. All right, stand by. Much more with Dr. Drew. We're going to take a quick break.

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00:53:03.640 Back with me now is Dr. Drew.

00:53:05.940 He is the host of Ask Dr. Drew.

00:53:07.920 You can find all of his content at drdrew.tv.

00:53:12.840 So, Dr. Drew, there's another case that's different from Lindsay Clancy, but it's got some shades that are similar that I wanted to ask you about.

00:53:22.140 It's a horrific murder of an 18-year-old young woman.

00:53:28.180 Her name was Caroline Heinz, and she was allegedly murdered by her boyfriend, Royce Moser.

00:53:36.020 They'd been dating for quite some time.

00:53:38.540 They had been to at least two proms together.

00:53:40.480 This just happened. She was 18. She was a rising freshman going off to Pennsylvania Western

00:53:47.660 University. She was a standout soccer player, was set to make her collegiate debut for the

00:53:53.620 university. Next week, she had one sister. She was dating Royce Moser, who graduated from Cannon

00:54:01.140 McMillan High School. She went to a different high school, about seven miles away. He, as far

00:54:06.620 as I know, was not off to college, but whatever.

00:54:09.880 They were together for quite some time.

00:54:12.220 Two proms together, including one 12 weeks ago.

00:54:16.360 Royce, who is the, he's the male,

00:54:21.080 Royce wrote on her Instagram,

00:54:24.400 best two nights ever with you, with hearts.

00:54:28.620 It went back and forth with her hearts and his hearts.

00:54:32.400 And then on Wednesday of last week at 9.30 p.m., according to a police affidavit, here's what happened.

00:54:42.740 Heinz, again, Caroline is her first name, left her father's home in Peters Township around 9.30 p.m.

00:54:49.040 She told her dad she might stop at a Target before returning to campus.

00:54:53.340 She met up with Royce Moser, the boyfriend, outside of his father's home after spending the day with her family, just north of Pittsburgh, this is.

00:55:03.720 During the discussion, Royce Moser reportedly became angry.

00:55:08.240 He told her, and we don't know why, what caused the fight, but they were clearly having a fight or a breakup or something.

00:55:13.320 Quote, he told her, wait, I have something for you, and went inside of the residence to get a knife.

00:55:19.800 Oh, my God.

00:55:20.280 He then came back outside and stabbed her to death.

00:55:23.500 Oh, wow.

00:55:23.960 It's just...

00:55:24.460 I mean, it's so horrific.

00:55:26.380 The Pennsylvania State Police report as follows.

00:55:29.640 Royce Moser, the defendant, then retrieved a large kitchen knife, stabbed Heinz in the chest.

00:55:35.260 After she fell from the vehicle, Royce Moser placed her in the rear hatch area of the Jeep

00:55:41.640 and drove to the residence of his mother, Rachel Moser.

00:55:45.740 Once at the residence, Rachel Moser assisted by attempting to clean the Jeep Cherokee with cleaning sprays.

00:55:51.100 She then provided Royce Moser with latex gloves and instructed him to follow her to the university.

00:55:56.320 Mom and son drove 35 miles south to California, Pennsylvania.

00:56:00.080 This is a town, California.

00:56:01.340 They then left the Jeep Cherokee near the California's library and Heinz, with Heinz still inside.

00:56:08.780 The mother, Rachel, then drove the son, Royce, back to her residence where he cleaned his clothes and showered.

00:56:16.820 Meanwhile, Caroline's father had been checking her iPhone location.

00:56:21.440 He later checked her location on his phone, noticed that she had stopped at her boyfriend's house where her devices put her for about 30 minutes.

00:56:29.480 After he was unable to get a hold of her, the California Police Department, California, Pennsylvania Police Department was contacted because an air tag in her vehicle showed she was in a parking lot in the borough.

00:56:41.040 According to court documents, the police department was notified to check the area for a Jeep Cherokee at 1224 a.m.

00:56:47.240 They found the Jeep.

00:56:48.540 They noticed the blood spatter.

00:56:50.100 They found the body.

00:56:51.840 The mother of the son, Royce, Rachel, told investigators her son called her in early morning hours and said he needed her to follow him to the university to drop off a vehicle, later admitting he had stabbed Heinz and needed a ride home.

00:57:05.280 That appears to have been lies.

00:57:06.760 She appears to have been brought in much earlier in the evening.

00:57:10.340 She said he told her that he had demons and did not know whether Caroline was alive or dead when he moved her.

00:57:20.940 He gave an interview himself, Royce did, told investigators that he had a, quote, demon take over during the confrontation before he retrieved the knife and stabbed her.

00:57:31.040 He told police how his mother had helped him to clean the car, told him to take a bath, then shower after.

00:57:37.220 She allegedly put his clothes in the washing machine for him.

00:57:41.040 Royce told the police his mother took the knife that was used to stab the victim and put it in a garbage bag to be put in the trash outside of her house where, indeed, they found it.

00:57:52.280 He's now been charged with homicide, among other charges.

00:57:54.620 The mother is charged with hindering apprehension of a fugitive and tampering with evidence, among other charges.

00:58:01.760 um this is as far as we know out of the blue as far as we know they're not referencing any

00:58:08.280 criminal history or juvenile history for the defendant here the prom the hearts it's horrible

00:58:14.280 in an instant two lives at least completely ruined forever i mean i don't i guess we'll

00:58:20.760 learn more about it as time goes along but it's incomprehensible and when things seem

00:58:27.420 incomprehensible to me i always worry about dark triad and psychopathy and psychopathy is a

00:58:34.040 heritable disorder and mom seems to have manifested some of the same stuff which is not acknowledging

00:58:40.340 that something wrong was going on it think about how different right yeah i mean people will go oh

00:58:44.780 do anything to protect my kids no you shouldn't no you shouldn't when they when they do horrible

00:58:48.540 things you got to let things come to bear look at the the murderer of charlie kirk what did his dad

00:58:54.860 do. Turned him in. We think, I think that's what happened. Right. Yeah. And that's the right thing

00:59:00.660 to do. That's the correct thing to do. You go, Oh, you've done something horrible. Here we go.

00:59:06.500 This is, I would not protect you for this. And let me ask you a question on this because to me,

00:59:11.500 it seems as a parent, you know, the first horrible thing is not usually murder. There's, there's

00:59:17.720 probably a long line in this kid's history of the mother and possibly the father downplaying

00:59:24.780 it making excuses getting him out of it you know sort of teaching him yes the absence of

00:59:30.380 accountability that's my guess that is exactly what tends to happen and the parental denial

00:59:35.340 even when the children can be the child is severely impaired with all kinds of things you

00:59:39.940 know psychiatric problems the the getting the parents to come to terms with or get the individual

00:59:44.560 to care is is what causes the catastrophes they don't get them there soon enough and they're in

00:59:49.860 so much denial about it, or they minimize it, they marginalize it, that kind of stuff.

00:59:55.400 People need to understand the difference between a parenting problem and a brain problem. They are

01:00:00.180 very, very different phenomenon. And you need to get brain issues to a professional quickly,

01:00:06.000 or horrible things can happen. In this case, I agree with you, though, it's probably more of a

01:00:10.920 antisocial quality to what he has been doing. The mom also antisocial, perhaps, and is sort of,

01:00:17.800 you know, manipulating and minimizing and dissembling. And it's tragic. It's just unbelievable.

01:00:23.020 I mean, look at those pictures. Imagine your daughter was dating a kid like that. You wouldn't

01:00:26.900 even be, let's say they were away at college and you had met the kid, but you just see the pictures

01:00:30.600 online. You wouldn't even have a reason to be suspicious, right? That's kind of the way

01:00:34.840 psychopathy and dark triad stuff goes. What's dark triad? Machiavellianism,

01:00:40.960 narcissism, and psychopathy, the three together. And people are thinking in terms of having varying

01:00:47.160 degrees of one or the other, but some people have all three in full blossom. And all this stuff is

01:00:52.720 way more common these days, certainly than the cluster B side, we call that the narcissism side

01:00:58.440 than we've had maybe ever. And once again, acting out is the norm for those people,

01:01:05.240 for those disorders. But how do you like, how do you predict? I mean, if you could, if you could

01:01:11.820 do this, you'd, you'd be a billionaire. Well, not a billionaire, I'd be able to save a bunch of

01:01:15.260 you know because you can't predict well i'm just saying like this would be an extremely marketable

01:01:20.100 skill thing to be able to do um predict violence you know it's like teenage love maybe gone awry

01:01:30.780 she's going off to college he's not but like he took then he took a knife and stabbed her in the

01:01:36.000 heart i mean this is on the heels of 2025 carmelo anthony took a knife and stabbed austin metcalf

01:01:42.880 in the heart a complete stranger i mean at least in the latter situation when it's young love i

01:01:48.640 don't know i mean let's face it you know men in love with women have been killing them for a long

01:01:55.280 long time this is actually not that unusual sadly but like the austin metcalf was such a shocker

01:02:01.720 because it was like out of nowhere like just one teen taking a knife and stabbing another to death

01:02:07.020 in the heart and yet with new information that has come out in court apparently it wasn't just

01:02:11.960 Oh, just two, two random, random high functioning teens who happened to run in the wrong, you

01:02:17.020 know, sort of run into each other.

01:02:18.640 Both of them had long, but that all makes sense when you start reading their long history

01:02:23.480 of violence and antisocial behavior, both of them.

01:02:26.800 I mean, just terrible stuff.

01:02:28.560 Now we, we went into all the details on this one was more violent.

01:02:32.060 One was more antisocial and sort of provocative and racist and stuff, but, but you sort of,

01:02:37.160 you can put those pieces together.

01:02:38.620 This one, I don't know.

01:02:40.320 We'll see.

01:02:40.720 I, you know, that is the dad saying that he's heard, you know, that maybe this kid was had some issues.

01:02:46.940 I mean, do you think that would all pile in now?

01:02:49.220 But then again, the attorneys may have told him to shut up.

01:02:51.240 We'll wait till we get to court.

01:02:53.500 Almost certainly they did.

01:02:56.080 Then speaking of, you know, people who are not not great mothers, there is the mother of Hayden Penetier, Lindsay Vogel.

01:03:05.700 And she's been making the rounds.

01:03:07.800 Have you seen any of this woman's commentary since her daughter died?

01:03:10.380 I have read a little bit and I, you know, I don't want us to displace, you know, blame.

01:03:18.220 I don't like that.

01:03:19.160 I think we have to understand it as a complicated situation.

01:03:23.880 But there's a lot of, let me just frame what I look at with this, which was that Hayden

01:03:29.380 had longstanding addiction, opiate addiction figure prominently.

01:03:32.620 People lose track all the time.

01:03:35.080 Everybody loses track.

01:03:36.260 the fact that opiate addiction is progressive and ends in death, unless it is in daily treatment

01:03:42.420 for remission. It ends in death. I cannot say that strongly enough. That's where opiate addiction

01:03:47.140 goes. You have to work hard. The prognosis for opiate addiction is significantly worse than the

01:03:53.460 vast majority of cancers. And yet we treat it like some sort of weakness that people should

01:03:58.420 be able to overcome. It's a very dangerous. Can I just ask you, can I ask you to elaborate on that?

01:04:02.780 because it's not just, I think you're referring to like death by overdose, but it's not just

01:04:08.600 death by overdose. It's like, it blows up your life so mightily and affects your overall health

01:04:14.840 so terribly. Death, it doesn't have to be from an OD. No, because you typically end up in the

01:04:20.680 street. You end up on the street because you start losing your work, you lose your family,

01:04:25.040 you lose everything. And you go to the street and you start shooting drugs because it's more

01:04:28.960 effective and it's cheaper. And yes, then you get very, very sick and you don't care. See,

01:04:33.600 the disease of addiction is a disease of motivation. The usual motivational priorities

01:04:40.540 get usurped by one overwhelming priority that takes over everything else, which is get drugs.

01:04:47.640 And that is now a chronic state. Now it reduces the longer you've been sober,

01:04:53.580 but it's always there waiting for you. It's always there as a priority. It's always affecting your

01:04:58.000 thinking. It's always affecting your judgment, which is why you have to every day reflect with

01:05:02.760 a sober person. Am I thinking this right? Is this okay? Oh, that's my disease. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

01:05:08.720 Let me not pay so much attention to that and do my sobriety work. And Hayden, in her case,

01:05:15.060 she had been treated a few times. She was first victimized by the thing I see all the time with

01:05:20.220 celebrities, which is they do short-term treatment, they return to work. You can't do that.

01:05:26.620 Returning to work prematurely is the number one reason that celebrities relapse.

01:05:30.940 They make money from people.

01:05:32.100 They want them back.

01:05:33.260 They enjoy their work.

01:05:34.360 They're gratified by the work.

01:05:35.360 They make money from it.

01:05:36.480 They want to go back.

01:05:37.440 And it's always, oh, we'll get a sober coach.

01:05:39.040 We'll do this.

01:05:39.880 There are no shortcuts.

01:05:41.120 Well, she found that out.

01:05:42.260 Then she went to eight months of treatment in an excellent facility and had some sustained

01:05:47.460 sobriety and then went back out.

01:05:50.420 And you have to ask yourself, why do addicts go back out?

01:05:54.480 Well, if they're in the program and doing well, there's a numero uno reason.

01:05:59.540 Well, the numero uno reason is the medical system takes them out.

01:06:02.020 That does it.

01:06:03.040 But number two is relationship.

01:06:04.180 What do you mean out?

01:06:04.980 Takes them back out.

01:06:05.960 A doctor gives them some painkillers, and now they're on.

01:06:09.860 Once they're exposed, they're thinking it gets screwed up again.

01:06:13.700 They start running.

01:06:15.360 They start going into their disease.

01:06:17.340 But the other thing is relationships.

01:06:20.360 Relationships take people out.

01:06:21.980 I'm using that terminology again.

01:06:23.220 all the time. The stress of relationship, they get involved with other addicts, their priority

01:06:28.880 of their recovery diminish. And that's kind of what I hear the mom saying. Now, I don't want to

01:06:33.540 blame anybody. I don't know what their relationship was like, but just playing the odds, that is one

01:06:39.440 of the number one reasons that people in good or longer-term sobriety get taken down.

01:06:45.560 Well, I mean, what we know from Hayden's own memoir is that the relationship with her mother

01:06:50.140 was not good. She claims that she had asked her mother to just be a mother and not be her manager

01:06:56.800 anymore. And the mother said, you owe me. The mother denied that. That may or may not have

01:07:01.760 happened. The mother's statement. Again, in addiction, who knows, you know, it's a dissembling,

01:07:06.880 obfuscating, distorting. That's all part of the game. But there is another. Yes. But just take

01:07:11.560 one look at this mother and you're going to have questions about her, too. Honestly, like this,

01:07:15.300 this is not somebody whose word I would put any any stock in whatsoever here she is um let me just

01:07:22.900 let me see uh yeah that no I don't want to play 18 I want to play 19 because here she's saying

01:07:28.400 something actually which I could I could agree with her is it is it uh yeah in 19 she's talking

01:07:34.960 about the abusive boyfriend and I think she's actually making good points but you can see this

01:07:38.960 woman is something's been a long time she's been thriving in my opinion go ahead 19. One year ago

01:07:47.200 her mom says she went to stay with Hayden to help her she says Hayden wanted out of her relationship

01:07:52.280 with Brian she knew that Brian was toxic she knew she had to get him out of her life but things took

01:07:59.000 a turn after about six weeks she noticed Hayden pulling away so she went back to her home in

01:08:04.760 Florida. What made you leave? What happened between the two of you? When I got the phone call from her

01:08:11.140 saying, I'm going to be with the person I love. And I said, I just lost it. I lost it. I could

01:08:22.940 not believe that she had gone that far back, that he had been successful in reeling her back in with

01:08:28.760 all of the things he had done to her. Vogel says Hayden was seeing Hickerson again. She gave Hayden

01:08:34.260 an ultimatum. She says on the advice of her therapist, she told Hayden she couldn't talk

01:08:38.900 to her if Brian was part of her life. And that was the beginning of their estrangement.

01:08:44.540 I needed it. I needed to have that pocket of time. Of course, I thought it was going to be

01:08:49.900 a pocket of time. I did not, by any stretch of the imagination, think that this was going to

01:08:58.920 happened to Hayden. Okay. So putting her other issues aside again, I actually believe that piece

01:09:05.940 of her testimonial. I believe she was worried about her daughter's presence with this known

01:09:10.200 abuser of Hayden. Um, and that, and I believe she probably was told maybe disassociate as a way of

01:09:18.640 cajoling Hayden into not going back with this, with her abuser. You, you, one of the, this is a

01:09:26.680 very challenging and sometimes controversial sort of thing I'm going to say, which is that you have

01:09:32.160 to leave with love sometimes when people are engaged in destructive behaviors, whether it's

01:09:36.540 addiction or addiction to relationships, whatever. These are all kind of addictive behaviors.

01:09:40.880 And what she did, I'm sure the therapist would say to do that. Unfortunately, it's dangerous.

01:09:48.040 It's dangerous. And so- Because you drive her into the arms.

01:09:50.780 Not even that so much is that maybe the only lifeline she had was her mom and that she was

01:09:55.660 the one watching and could could have you you you worry about withdrawing from it's it's technically

01:10:01.740 the right thing to do because you love people to death that's that's sort of the the codependency

01:10:06.780 saying uh but you have to you have to when you leave it has to be managed very carefully and

01:10:12.800 only when the the risk is worth it when there's no other alternative and um i don't know i feel i

01:10:19.020 feel terrible for the whole situation it was just awful well there's there's there's some more facts

01:10:23.440 emerging about the boyfriend and so on. The New York Times did an in-depth report Sunday

01:10:28.920 reporting that, first of all, Hayden Penetier had private security to keep Brian Hickerson

01:10:34.380 away from her during the book tour, which was in May. May. We're not talking about ancient history.

01:10:41.780 So she was so concerned about him and his behavior just a few months ago that she was telling the

01:10:46.740 bookstores where she was appearing to promote the book, do not let in a man named Brian Hickerson

01:10:53.120 obviously, reports the Times, and we all know now that they eventually resumed their tumultuous

01:10:59.160 on and off relationship. But during that book tour, she had private security who was under

01:11:04.420 strict instructions not to let him anywhere near her. She would wall herself off from family when

01:11:09.380 she was with Hickerson, reports the Times, writing, Mr. Hickerson was a persistent source of conflict

01:11:14.600 in the final year of a life weighed down by grief, addiction, agoraphobia, and physical pain that

01:11:22.960 sometimes made it difficult for Ms. Panettiere to walk. You're familiar with all these dynamics,

01:11:28.420 Dr. Drew. She had an injury on the set where she was thrown bizarrely from a zebra a couple of

01:11:34.960 years ago, and apparently it crushed a couple of her vertebrae and gave her serious ongoing back

01:11:40.780 pain that can easily trigger an opiate addiction in an industry like Hollywood, and then you've

01:11:47.000 got the abusive boyfriend, and that's how we got to where we got.

01:11:51.600 Marono Medical System, take you out.

01:11:54.360 I'm not saying she should not have received pain medication.

01:11:57.020 I'm saying it should have been administered at the hands of somebody who understands pain

01:12:00.320 and addiction, and there's a way to do that.

01:12:03.260 And I'm not saying she shouldn't get the opiates.

01:12:05.480 She should get, even if she needed primary mu, short-acting opiates, again, carefully

01:12:10.980 manage and understanding that her addiction would be triggered and have to be managed

01:12:15.220 as a result.

01:12:16.480 So there it is.

01:12:17.440 You know, we have two, number one and number two, things that really harm people in addiction.

01:12:22.240 It's, you know, it also brings up the topic of behavioral addictions too.

01:12:26.400 You know, love addiction, sex addiction, porn addiction, gambling addiction.

01:12:29.160 These things these days, because of the crack pipe that we hold in our hands all the time, are really taking people down.

01:12:35.040 He's holding up his phone.

01:12:35.900 Wildly, I'm holding my phone up, yeah.

01:12:37.000 um the uh the the listing of what she was going through right grief because her younger brother

01:12:46.920 had died a couple years ago he also what had a substance abuse problem though is said to have

01:12:52.220 died of congenital heart defects at age 28 which i'm sure were not helped by his substance abuse

01:12:58.580 problem um addiction we covered with her physical pain we covered and agoraphobia can you speak to

01:13:05.500 this because in my experience, it is not unusual to find somebody with an addiction problem who's

01:13:12.020 got agoraphobia or is a hoarder or has some other issue on the mental health scale. I don't know if

01:13:22.540 it's caused by addiction, if the mental health stuff causes the addiction and the other stuff,

01:13:26.660 but can you speak to that? The agoraphobia jumped out at me.

01:13:28.880 it it it much like the pain oftentimes the drugs that they're doing make all their psychiatric

01:13:36.220 symptoms pain oh pain gets worse on opiates that's just the way it is it causes it causes

01:13:41.080 an intensification of pain then you get headaches because you're in withdrawal then you get low back

01:13:45.160 pain because you're in withdrawal and you just escalate the pain and then you end up on

01:13:49.200 benzodiazepines at night for sleep because you're taking all these opiates and trying to get off

01:13:53.500 those, that's where the agoraphobia and anxiety and panic kicked in. And maybe she hadn't had

01:13:59.720 enough time off those drugs to really let that subside. Then what we more commonly see or most

01:14:06.100 commonly see, I would say, is the concomitant childhood trauma, right? Childhood trauma is

01:14:11.560 the rocket fuel for addiction. And none of this stuff is causational. The cause is that it's

01:14:16.560 genetic. And you either have the gene or you don't, but there are these influences that activate the

01:14:21.960 gene, and childhood trauma would have to be number one. And in her case, you know, it brings up the

01:14:27.240 whole topic of childhood stars. And there's the interesting things people talk about with that.

01:14:32.680 You know, Danny Bonaduce was the first to sort of educate me that more often than not,

01:14:37.160 something's up with the parents. And if your parents were good, you end up with Ron Howard.

01:14:41.240 If they weren't good, you end up with Danny Bonaduce, however he would say it.

01:14:45.260 But there's another issue I have found on top of that, which is that they get into the children.

01:14:54.200 First of all, they're in an adult world with adults all the time, taking on adult responsibility.

01:14:58.840 That's traumatic for a child, number one.

01:15:00.680 Not massively traumatic, but traumatic.

01:15:03.160 Number two, they may have fractured families that they have come from, and they get into these productions where it's a family unit.

01:15:10.240 It forms a family, sometimes for multiple seasons.

01:15:13.100 And what no one prepares the child for is that, let's say, after six seasons where this is your dad and you feel really good about him and he's not, I understand he's not my dad, but I feel very close to him and this family feels very safe for me.

01:15:26.040 End of the production, everybody scatters to the wind and they never see each other again.

01:15:30.760 That is profoundly abandoning for these children.

01:15:34.020 And a lot of them bring that up specifically.

01:15:37.560 Gosh, that makes perfect sense.

01:15:39.240 you're asking so much of these children to manage these adult settings. And in case after case,

01:15:46.460 we're seeing potential child sexual abuse. You know, we just on this morning on our morning

01:15:51.760 podcast, AM Update, we reported on this young actress who was on a Disney, in a Disney,

01:15:58.220 I think made for TV movie. And she's now come out under this California law that allows you to bring

01:16:05.040 these claims up to age 40, saying she was sexually assaulted by an adult male person

01:16:12.660 on the set. She doesn't say exactly who it was. It appears she and he may have entered

01:16:17.640 into a smaller settlement back in 2015, but now she's going after Disney. But I'm sure

01:16:21.700 that's a lifetime, that's a lifetime sentence she's been given.

01:16:25.680 Chattering.

01:16:26.180 And you say, okay, if you have good parents, you wind up Ron Howard. Just a little digression

01:16:31.860 here, does Northwest have good parents? Kanye, or just Ye now, and Kim Kardashian? Because

01:16:41.580 she is on the cover of this British quarterly magazine right now with false teeth, like a

01:16:49.240 grill situation, blue hair, all these facial piercings. Look at this. Drew, she is almost

01:16:57.380 exactly the same age as my Thatcher, who was born in July of 13. She was born in June of 13. So I

01:17:07.140 know this age very, very well. He is a sweet little boy. This girl, I mean, would you look at

01:17:16.240 this? And she's launching an album, and she's going to be performing concerts, and they are

01:17:22.380 rushing to try to make her a star without, it doesn't appear, any reflection, especially by

01:17:30.320 the Kardashians, on the significant downside of putting your child on camera for her childhood.

01:17:36.900 It makes you worry. And she has bipolar in her genetic heritage, right? And she has parents that

01:17:45.640 have not been available, let's say. I don't know. It doesn't look like they're around all the time.

01:17:50.080 uh and that can set you up for trouble and then we're going to go put her out in the public and

01:17:55.920 you know it's it's another issue that i've been i really was feeling this morning it the being

01:18:01.740 public back when when i started doing radio and television it was to help and there was joy and

01:18:08.440 people appreciated the help and they participated there was a communal feeling now if you're public

01:18:15.080 Like it feels really, really dangerous now.

01:18:19.180 And so putting a child into it, it's just, oh, I don't know if we're going to get through

01:18:24.900 this time or it's going to get worse.

01:18:26.240 It's back to the guillotines we talked about last hour.

01:18:28.780 They are out.

01:18:29.700 And hey, everybody that puts somebody on the guillotine realized history is a clear teacher

01:18:35.740 on this.

01:18:36.740 Everybody ends up on the guillotines eventually if you keep bringing them out.

01:18:40.880 That's always the case in history.

01:18:43.860 She released her debut album at 12.

01:18:47.340 She's already performed on stage with Kanye.

01:18:49.920 These two have manipulated it

01:18:51.900 such that she has gotten other onstage gigs.

01:18:55.560 The name of this magazine is Dazed.

01:18:57.980 And most of the comments, thankfully, are not encouraging.

01:19:01.640 People recognize this is wrong.

01:19:04.180 Many people saying, I'm out, I'm unsubscribing.

01:19:06.880 This is very odd.

01:19:07.660 This is a baby, wrote someone.

01:19:09.400 I've just unfollowed after years.

01:19:10.920 What even is this magazine anymore?

01:19:13.000 I'm uncomfortable seeing this.

01:19:15.080 She writes about how she doesn't want to,

01:19:21.800 she said, everyone's in love with boys vaping

01:19:24.080 and doing all kinds of bad stuff.

01:19:25.700 All I want is blue hair and piercings.

01:19:29.200 But then she talks about how I really want to get my bridge pierced.

01:19:31.800 I hope.

01:19:32.320 My bridge, but I'm not allowed yet.

01:19:34.200 The bridge, she means right here.

01:19:35.800 There's a picture of it my producers gave me.

01:19:37.920 Like right here between the eyes,

01:19:39.960 the part that your nose, that your eyeglasses would rest on. My God. Of course, thank God,

01:19:46.400 at least Kim Kardashian knows this is not a good idea. She told people that, or people reported

01:19:52.620 that she recently debuted a different type of art, piercings on her thighs. She, I mean, this is a,

01:20:01.260 my son is riding his bike, playing tennis and playing something called bucket golf with his

01:20:07.300 buddies in the backyard. This is bizarre. This is a strange choice. And let me just show you one

01:20:12.980 other thing. This is her music video. Okay. I'm going to tell you what the words are here.

01:20:19.020 Ashite is the name. I ain't nobody finna save me. Finna? I don't know how to read this. Finna.

01:20:26.460 Ain't nobody finna save me. I, and it's driving me crazy. Why can't I escape? Cause they chase me.

01:20:31.620 They chase me. Just love me. Everyone betrays me. Yeah. And I'm seeing blood daily. What?

01:20:37.300 And it's driving me crazy.

01:20:38.840 Yeah, can't escape because they chase me.

01:20:40.760 Just love me, everyone.

01:20:42.280 Everyone betrays me.

01:20:43.640 Watch.

01:20:44.600 Oh, boy.

01:20:45.280 Oh, boy.

01:21:07.300 do you want to take that one dr drew i mean if that's how she's feeling this isn't going to go

01:21:13.860 well and one of the things that people do when they're feeling a lot of aggression is they'll

01:21:17.820 turn it on themselves cut peers stuff like that i i want to i'm trying to avoid megan becoming the

01:21:25.980 old guy on the porch oh these kids today i don't know i'm trying not to just take it by appearances

01:21:31.640 and try to understand what's up here.

01:21:34.320 The only exposure I've had to her was a video she posted

01:21:38.220 where she was yelling at her mom

01:21:39.560 because her mom knocked her monthly allowance down,

01:21:42.720 thousands of dollars, which already was odd.

01:21:46.060 Did you see that one?

01:21:47.240 That was disturbing.

01:21:49.280 Really calling her mom names, horrible names.

01:21:53.140 I didn't see that.

01:21:54.340 I saw there was some report that Kanye was going to knock down

01:21:57.120 the 10 grand he gives her a month.

01:21:58.900 I don't know.

01:21:59.560 It was unconfirmed.

01:22:00.380 but he was allegedly going to do that because he didn't like the direction she was going in

01:22:04.420 unconfirmed again. But look, those two are much more interested in being on camera and working

01:22:10.940 on their careers such as they are than I think in actual parenting. I'm sure she'd love for her

01:22:16.320 daughter to be a star. In Kim Kardashian's defense, she came by it honestly. That's what

01:22:21.400 her mom taught her when she got that. That whole sex tape was reportedly orchestrated by the mother.

01:22:26.960 She wanted her daughter's sex act on the Internet, according to the man who's performing in it.

01:22:34.540 They deny that.

01:22:35.720 But, you know, it's speaking of generational trauma that that's actual generational trauma.

01:22:42.000 I would.

01:22:42.860 Thankfully, she was not a child.

01:22:44.480 But, you know, when we were doing Loveline back in the day, every third, every third or every fifth call was about childhood sexual abuse.

01:22:53.080 It was so common back in the day.

01:22:56.140 and realized that we went through a pandemic of this stuff.

01:22:59.740 It's not normal.

01:23:00.880 It does not happen throughout history.

01:23:02.440 We were not just talking about it more.

01:23:04.480 It was about a 20-year period where it was in the heels of the sexual revolution,

01:23:10.280 which anything goes, that this all got unleashed, and then it went underground.

01:23:15.860 And the real problem is the sad part trying to manage philosophically

01:23:19.700 is a certain percentage of these kids then became perpetrators when they became adults.

01:23:24.080 And when perpetrators like that perpetrate, it's not a digital thing.

01:23:30.160 It's not one time.

01:23:31.100 It's exponential to multiple orders of magnitude.

01:23:34.760 And so that's why this thing spread so much.

01:23:36.980 And people forget in the late 90s, early 2000s, we had a pandemic of child-on-child sexual abuse because of some of this stuff.

01:23:44.960 You know, we are constantly making fun of, it's called The Cut.

01:23:50.480 It's an offshoot of New York Magazine.

01:23:52.260 and they do more cultural things and it's a very far left publication, but sometimes amusing. And

01:23:59.180 actually right now they have a very interesting piece in there, um, about a little girl who back

01:24:06.600 in 2015 was only four. She was going to kindergarten in West Virginia and the mandatory reporters

01:24:14.740 there, AKA her teachers saw that this girl was being physically abused. They could tell.

01:24:20.280 And as it turns out, they suspected sexual abuse as well.

01:24:24.700 And indeed, it was the case.

01:24:27.100 She was being.

01:24:28.340 And unfortunately, when these mandatory reporters began reporting to the Division of Child and Family Services, you've got to look into this girl's case.

01:24:38.040 The parents kept denying it and then ultimately pulled her from the school system and were allowed to just say, oh, we're homeschooling her.

01:24:46.420 We're going to homeschool her.

01:24:47.460 notwithstanding the fact that there were abuse investigations underway inside the home that

01:24:52.680 were both physical, like a broken femur, and sexual, explicit and awful, just as awful as

01:25:00.280 you can imagine. And you know what? She died. She died as a child because state after state

01:25:06.840 apparently allows this. It's not just West Virginia. It's not a rip on homeschooling.

01:25:10.980 Homeschooling can be absolutely wonderful, and in many cases, far superior to brick and mortar

01:25:14.600 schools. However, when there's an active reporting situation where the mandatory reporters in the

01:25:21.120 school have said the parents are hurting this child, you should not be allowed to homeschool

01:25:25.100 until there's been a favorable resolution for you. Right. So many dumb laws, so many dumb

01:25:31.940 regulations rate these outcomes and not to mention the deficiencies in social services and their

01:25:37.240 ability to do anything. But you look no further to homelessness. By the way, I went to a I have

01:25:43.200 a documentary out on homelessness, uh, called beyond homelessness. And it's, um, San Francisco

01:25:49.400 is down 25% because guess what they're doing? They're treating the drug addicts on the street

01:25:53.140 and they're putting them in places where they're accountable, have to find work, have to stay there

01:25:56.460 for a long period of time, have to do this, do 12 step work. And guess what? Everyone's getting

01:26:00.800 well and everyone is thriving. Oh, you mean the reversal of the open air drug markets and the

01:26:06.380 providing of the needles that they were doing? If those, by the way, needle exchange was supposed

01:26:10.700 to be a needle exchange, not needle handout, number one. And number two, if I were managing,

01:26:16.440 let's say those open air regions where these sick people are located, which is essentially a

01:26:23.120 psychiatric hospital without walls. If I was managing that and six people were dying a day

01:26:28.700 like they are on the streets of Los Angeles, I would not only be guilty of malpractice,

01:26:32.720 I would go to prison. But unfortunately, doctors and nurses are not allowed to help these people.

01:26:37.880 They only interface with social workers who are not trained to do this.

01:26:44.140 It's like asking a physical therapist to do orthopedic surgery.

01:26:47.540 They're wonderfully trained.

01:26:49.040 They're not trained for people that are this ill psychiatrically.

01:26:52.380 And back to the regulations and the stupid laws, if we don't reestablish something called

01:26:57.140 gravely disabled, which was the reason you could help people throughout the last 250

01:27:01.680 years of this country, if somebody is so disabled that they lie down on the sidewalk and stay

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01:30:06.980 Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan Kelly.

01:30:09.120 I've got some exciting news.

01:30:11.340 I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM.

01:30:14.500 It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth,

01:30:17.580 unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

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01:30:23.860 link lauren maureen callahan emily joshinsky jesse kelly real clear politics and many more

01:30:29.620 it's bold no bs news only on the megan kelly channel sirius xm 111 and on the sirius xm app

01:30:36.640 i did want to get back of my my offshoot into the northwest situation was from the hayden

01:30:46.880 situation and i i did want to talk a bit about the abusive boyfriend because

01:30:51.380 you tell me, you know, what specifically, was it the drugs? Would you guess that made her go back

01:30:59.020 to this guy that she was getting mandated bodily protection from in May? Because here's what now,

01:31:05.440 a couple of things that are breaking about him, Brian Hickerson. He had, according to Hayden's

01:31:12.980 mom, he had pawned Hayden's belongings. She said that she was shocked to find that Brian Hickerson

01:31:21.320 who filed for bankruptcy in 2022 had pawned some of Hayden's belongings, including a vintage

01:31:28.260 guitar. The mother also claimed that Hayden Panettiere was shocked when she found out that

01:31:33.780 her on-again, off-again boyfriend had some of her possessions in his storage unit. So obviously,

01:31:41.200 the implication is that he had stolen them from her. And then on top of that, it was very

01:31:46.780 interesting this is um page six doing the reporting um there hold on a second where is it

01:31:54.380 because the report was also that oh maybe this is the new york times yeah it was the new york times

01:31:58.860 in that lengthy piece on sunday reported that he at some point had been acting as hayden's

01:32:05.540 paid executive assistant of course further entangling the two his linkedin profile describes

01:32:11.920 him as an executive assistant for a high-profile confidential client and so he appears to have

01:32:19.080 gone on her payroll all of this notwithstanding the fact that he beat her repeatedly oh but he

01:32:27.380 took domestic violence classes so you know i guess problem allegedly solved here um one more thing

01:32:34.660 some classes took care of it some real some reassignment uh you know it's like it all to

01:32:40.500 me sounds like you know the communist you know sort of education camps yeah great well done

01:32:45.920 no it's like at fox news they made everybody take sexual harassment training that people went there

01:32:50.780 for ideas it was that these classes are a joke how do these courts think that that's going to

01:32:57.460 change anything i don't know what would you mandate to a domestic abuser if you actually

01:33:01.000 wanted him to break a pattern i remember i was talking to a guy who once pushed a woman through

01:33:06.400 a door and he was a good kid. And he thought, my God, something is wrong. I need help. I'm

01:33:11.940 going in a direction. There's something wrong. And I was talking to him and he said, you know,

01:33:19.300 he's had successful treatment. He had all kinds of trauma stuff and therapy and relational trauma,

01:33:23.960 you know, stuff, multiple, multiple kinds of therapeutics. And I said, well, how long are you

01:33:30.100 working with this? Because, you know, five years and I feel like I'm a little better now. And I

01:33:33.400 thought, oh my God, that's a kid that threw somebody through a door. Imagine these people

01:33:37.360 that are so abusive and repetitive, push people through this cycle of abuse. And I'm going to

01:33:42.680 have to explain what the cycle of abuse is so people know what it is. My treatment is you

01:33:47.360 separate these people and you get mom into an environment or get the woman into an environment

01:33:51.640 where she can start to look at why she's addicted and why she can't get out of this cult of two.

01:33:56.880 I call it a cult of two. The way it works is, oh no, no, I love you so much. I love you so much.

01:34:02.700 then the jealousy and then the irritability and then the woman's walking on eggshells then he's

01:34:08.220 triggered he becomes violent then at the end of the violence it's because i love you so much and

01:34:13.240 they have this idealized reuniting and people fall for that both men and women it's because i love you

01:34:19.460 so much that i'm so emotional i can't control myself because my love for you is so amazing

01:34:24.020 this is bs everybody this is nonsense this is the cycle of abuse but this is how people get into

01:34:31.380 this cult of two this cycle where they have trouble pulling themselves out now if they were

01:34:37.220 also using buddies which i don't know maybe they're both doing drugs together that adds to

01:34:42.300 the addictive certainly looks that way that adds the addictive sticky quality to the relationship

01:34:46.560 and as i said this is how he wasn't using with her why was he asleep at 150 in the afternoon

01:34:53.180 two sundays ago when they found her when the brother came over and found them both passed out

01:34:59.380 He was allegedly next to her in the pullout sofa bed, and she was dead.

01:35:03.960 I mean, I think if you're asleep at 2 in the afternoon next to a dead person, you probably have your own issues.

01:35:09.680 And they had Narcan on them in the apartment, which was an Airbnb.

01:35:15.300 So it wasn't even, I think, the place that he normally lives.

01:35:18.000 So he was clearly traveling with it.

01:35:19.940 And he reportedly, Brian, the boyfriend, tried to administer it to her unsuccessfully.

01:35:26.840 Here, listen to him talking about domestic violence and how he just needed some education, Drew.

01:35:35.580 My biggest thing about domestic violence is I don't think it is taught early enough in life.

01:35:45.560 Never in my life did I ever get taught what domestic violence was, right?

01:35:51.980 maybe if i did at an early age maybe i wouldn't have done what i did we don't know

01:35:59.540 but it's one of those things you think about

01:36:03.800 so all right yeah you got the training to me it's you don't get it's not about getting taught about

01:36:10.640 dv it's about anger management you know emotional regulation communication what say you years

01:36:19.360 years of work and not just oh that's what that is okay we're done here it's like it's like saying

01:36:25.540 it's literally like saying uh you know somebody has a schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and it's

01:36:31.600 like do you come to we're teaching you what this thing is you have oh okay we'll see you later no

01:36:37.080 then you treat it the education is to get people to the point where they can acknowledge that they

01:36:42.180 need treatment that this is not okay that it's pathological it's dangerous and he something is

01:36:49.660 up there i don't know what's going on with him but it would require a lot and i bet i just wonder

01:36:55.540 if alcohol is involved because in and by the way he also had that flavor of oh i was exposed to

01:37:01.280 domestic violence my whole life i just thought it was okay i i which does happen to people i mean

01:37:06.140 they but that is not but i mean thinking that he didn't know his domestic violence when he was

01:37:10.120 punching her in the face? I'm pretty sure he knew. I would agree with you. But if you saw it in

01:37:14.680 childhood, again, giving it a name doesn't mean you're not going to repeat that exactly what you

01:37:19.240 were exposed to in childhood. The reports of him attacking her continue to come out. We continue

01:37:29.500 to learn more. This is a neighbor. This is not 26. And it was on Inside Edition last week. Listen

01:37:38.660 to this. This is a neighbor of Hayden's. Hayden Panettiere's neighbor is making shocking

01:37:43.840 allegations about the troubled star's relationship with her boyfriend. She was always such a bright

01:37:48.740 light when she was by herself. When she was with Brian, she was so subdued and seemed almost like

01:37:54.980 a different person. Mia Terrazas says she called 911 a half a dozen times to report disturbances

01:38:01.800 in Hayden's apartment in West Hollywood. Was there ever any instances where you thought there

01:38:06.320 could be domestic violence going on oh absolutely i saw her leaving on a gurney um brian was right

01:38:13.900 next to her and i asked her if she was okay and it looked to me that she you know had suffered

01:38:20.920 some type of trauma that uh you know looked to be battering and it was clear she was terrified

01:38:29.340 brian hickerson was jailed for 45 days in 2021 for punching hayden with his closed fist in the

01:38:35.940 face and was banned from the apartment complex where Hayden lived. This image of Hickerson was

01:38:41.360 posted on the property. Warning to all residents, if he is seen anywhere on this property,

01:38:46.820 please call 911 immediately. Consistent with what she was doing at the book signings. I'm needing

01:38:53.760 a bath. I feel so bad for all these topics we're getting into. This is like really tough material.

01:38:59.800 But, you know, in addition to the stickiness of the cycle of abuse and the cult of two that people get into, the women particularly, their personal resources and their sense of themselves get severely eroded in relationships like this.

01:39:19.680 They really don't have the capacity to pull themselves out of it.

01:39:25.100 They just keep going, sinking deeper and deeper.

01:39:27.940 And then, again, if you're using substances on top of that, that's how they try to manage it.

01:39:31.660 And, of course, that only makes things worse.

01:39:34.180 So it sounds like, Drew, you would have said, like, if Hayden had come to you and said, how about I write a memoir and then I go on a book tour?

01:39:42.040 You know, I'm clean and sober now.

01:39:44.180 I go on a book tour and I'm going to go on all these podcasts and all these TV shows to promote it and talk about all my trauma.

01:39:50.640 You might have said to her too soon.

01:39:53.420 I might have said too soon.

01:39:54.620 If it had been less than two years of sobriety, I would have definitely said too soon.

01:39:58.940 And then I would have said, what does your therapist say?

01:40:01.720 What does your psychiatrist say?

01:40:02.760 What does your sponsor say?

01:40:03.840 Are we all in agreement that this is a good idea?

01:40:05.980 If anyone dissents, you're going to wait it out until everyone decides this is okay for you.

01:40:11.020 But there I...

01:40:11.920 Because there was a report that while she was out promoting her book,

01:40:16.200 she was still drinking and still doing drugs,

01:40:19.260 that she tried to order a boatload of alcohol and whippets to the hotel room

01:40:23.980 And the security caught it. And notwithstanding the fact, you know, she was out there saying I'm sober back in July of twenty twenty two.

01:40:31.940 She was saying I'm clean and sober. Here she is in twenty twenty two.

01:40:35.120 How are you today? I'm good. It's an everyday battle.

01:40:40.960 It really is. I'm grateful to say that I'm sober today.

01:40:46.100 Sober and connecting on a whole new level with her seven year old daughter, Kaya.

01:40:49.760 I can only imagine one of the things you're most grateful for is your beautiful little girl.

01:40:57.300 That she is.

01:40:59.720 She's my favorite little person.

01:41:03.920 But she would wind up agreeing to give the father custody and so on.

01:41:08.340 The downward spiral continued to the point where now, Drew, she reunites with this abuser.

01:41:13.140 He's next to her in this bed when she dies.

01:41:17.000 Obviously, drugs were involved.

01:41:18.520 I mean, we'll wait for the toxicology, but it seems clear.

01:41:21.460 And now Rob Shooter is reporting that sources are telling him law enforcement has seized the cameras around the Greenville, South Carolina apartment where she was found dead and where that boyfriend was living.

01:41:33.660 So we always say that she may have been sober there.

01:41:37.520 And I think that's after her long, long period of treatment, which was excellent.

01:41:41.740 But back to work too soon.

01:41:44.120 That's exactly what happens to everybody.

01:41:46.000 you know you don't only didn't do that robert downey jr didn't do that his last effort at

01:41:52.480 sobriety he just he contemplated that he'd never work again and did his work for years and then

01:41:58.340 kind of tiptoed back under the supervision of his sober team and there you go that's how you do it

01:42:02.700 you don't run out and do a book tour but the other thing we always say about these relationships and

01:42:07.520 particularly i'm assuming he's drinking or whatever if you're if you're or maybe he was

01:42:12.800 sober at the time too, but two people early in sobriety often get together. And what we say is

01:42:18.640 you think you're reaching for a life preserver, but that's actually, you're grabbing an anvil

01:42:23.560 and you're going to, it's going to take you down. And it always does.

01:42:27.500 You know, speaking of sobriety, Brad Pitt's in the news virtually every day because he has six

01:42:33.540 children. And so far by my count, four out of the six, the latest being his 18 year old daughter,

01:42:41.060 um vivian have petitioned to have his name removed from their last name so they want to go by just

01:42:51.060 joe lee not joe lee pitt anymore and it's not just semantic it's clear they want nothing to do with

01:42:56.800 him there was an infamous domestic abuse incident involving pitt and joe lee on an airplane all the

01:43:02.900 children were reportedly present she tried to get the fbi involved she filed the police report they

01:43:08.280 got divorced right after. He's said to have hit her or hurt her physically, as well as verbally

01:43:13.540 abusing his children and Angelina on board that plane. I believe he's denied the specific charges

01:43:19.260 there, but he did declare that he was an alcoholic shortly thereafter. They got a divorce.

01:43:23.860 And now he sits down for a long interview, I think it was with Esquire two weeks ago,

01:43:29.320 and says he's drinking again. He's drinking again, but he can handle it. It's going to be

01:43:34.540 more than one, but it's not going to be so many that he gets drunk. You tell me whether that's

01:43:39.780 a thing. Watch what happens, everybody. Just watch. The clock is ticking on the progression.

01:43:46.800 It's a progressive illness. It progresses. And if you've been progressed already, you take a

01:43:52.600 period of time off and you try to start again, you essentially very quickly get back where you left

01:43:57.640 off. And for some people, it's instant. But for other people, it takes a few years, but they'll

01:44:01.740 get there i know cannabis was a big thing for him so that'll get involved as well as far as him

01:44:06.960 being estranged from his kids um you know he's talked about the effect the addiction has had on

01:44:11.900 his his family life and then you then he leaves and i i'm gonna guess that angelina jolie has

01:44:19.060 abandonment stuff she doesn't feel good about somebody leaving and she who knows what her role

01:44:24.440 is and the kids not wanting him involved in their life at all we don't know yes i'm sure there has

01:44:31.040 been manipulation on her part, you know, in not forget the abuse. There's no excuse for that,

01:44:37.360 but not owning her part in the breakdown of the marriage, which does take two to keep healthy

01:44:43.020 and to ruin. Yeah. If you were doing it a healthy way, you'd say, listen, this is your father.

01:44:47.180 Let's figure out how to maintain a relationship. Maybe you want to limit the, whatever. But you

01:44:51.340 to say that person needs to be out of your life forever. That's rough for kids. That's very

01:44:55.660 difficult. Yeah. Right. Judge Judy, she always used to say, you're supposed to love your kids

01:45:00.580 more than you hate your ex, and these two definitely are not living that.

01:45:04.480 So it's sad.

01:45:05.220 Yet another child has petitioned successfully to have Pitt removed from her name.

01:45:09.700 That's four out of the six, and we'll see what happens with the other two.

01:45:12.660 Dr. Drew, it's wonderful to see you.

01:45:14.560 Gosh, we had a lot that we needed to go over with you.

01:45:16.560 Thank you for coming and shedding some expertise and light on you.

01:45:18.940 I always love talking to you.

01:45:20.160 You've really expanded my understanding of some of these things,

01:45:23.540 and although I feel horrible, and I still feel like it's a dangerous world out there,

01:45:28.960 Thank you for having this conversation with me.

01:45:31.940 Could be worse.

01:45:32.760 Could be talking politics.

01:45:33.600 Yeah, it'd be worse.

01:45:34.400 Okay.

01:45:35.180 See you soon.

01:45:35.960 You too.

01:45:37.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:45:39.400 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:45:47.680 Today's episode was brought to you by SuperSure.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 25, 2026

What the Lindsay Clancy Trial EXPOSES About Society, North West's Disturbing Look, and Hayden Panettiere Blame Game, with Dr. Drew ｜ Ep. 1385

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