00:05:52.560You know, it wasn't just me and Nolan and a couple of my buddies.
00:05:56.300There was 20 or 30 people spread out where we all met at the dock before.
00:06:00.440and then we departed to go to horn island it wasn't just a couple of us i mean we were there
00:06:05.280were so many people we had to split up between three boats and we all left and all got there at
00:06:09.460the same time roughly probably two to three maybe even four thousand people out there there were
00:06:15.000boats lined up off the island everybody's drinking you know i mean it's fourth of july everyone's
00:06:21.740just trying to enjoy themselves and you know it's a big party basically big party i talked to nolan
00:06:26.560And, you know, Nolan was drinking. Everybody was drinking. Most of everybody. And I mean, Nolan seemed completely fine every time I talked to him. We had just regular conversations and, you know, Nolan was making me laugh. I talked to Nolan a couple of times, but it wasn't like I was strictly sitting there talking to Nolan the whole day. I mean, there was hundreds of people I knew out there.
00:06:48.560So. Nolan's friends say they last saw Nolan around 3 p.m. on the island. Warren Hudson's stepmother said that she was told she had a Facebook post, two of them, said she was told that Nolan decided to stay on the island after a boat carrying some of the boys left earlier because that boat was taking on water.
00:07:10.740She said there was a problem with the bilge pump, and there actually is a call by these boys, two of the authorities, saying, we think we're sinking.
00:07:19.260The belief by the friends who were leaving was that since they all came out on three boats that Nolan would get a ride back on one of the remaining boats.
00:07:30.000However, Nolan never made it back to the mainland.
00:07:33.120A massive search was launched that evening.
00:07:35.520The next day, on Sunday, Nolan's mother posted several images of Nolan from July 4th asking anyone for help.
00:07:44.260One of those images we're showing here.
00:07:48.380Later that same day, it shows for listening audience, Nolan sitting with three friends, just because now they've injected race into this story.
00:07:56.740I will tell you the three friends are white.0.65
00:08:01.180He's wearing a blue bathing suit and he doesn't have a shirt on and neither do the other boys.
00:08:08.580So later this same day after Nolan's mom posted this, she posted this message, quote, we were provided with incorrect information regarding what he was wearing.
00:20:06.000He did not know whether he was conscious or unconscious when he entered the water.
00:20:14.920He said that would be significant. He said he did not know whether he was forced into the water or unforced into the water. He said that would be significant.
00:20:29.620So he said the condition of Nolan Wells before he entered the water would be the crux of the matter.
00:20:38.420It would be of utmost importance to being able to determine a cause and manner of death.
00:20:49.400He said definitive circumstances of death are required to determine the manner of death.
00:20:59.620For these reasons, this pathologist cannot rule out if any intervening non-accidental factors contributed to or caused the death of known whales.
00:21:29.620understand. He said, based on the examination of the body, he cannot rule out file plan.
00:21:43.340Couldn't rule it out and didn't rule it in. At the end of the press conference,
00:21:47.520Ben Crump led a chant. Justice for Nolan Wells. Justice for Nolan Wells.
00:22:35.860Nolan Wells may very well have drowned accidentally.
00:22:39.500And a point of clarification, because we heard on Nancy's show that Nancy had asked this,
00:22:49.100somebody from the cajun navy that was searching for nolan wells a great search agency she asked
00:22:55.340quote nolan was face down still fully clothed on the beach is that correct and the cajun navy guy
00:23:01.920said yes that is correct he was face down and that is why we quoted her as saying he was still fully
00:23:10.460clothed on the beach she said it and then asked if it was correct and the cajun navy guy said yes
00:23:15.500that is correct and then added he was face down so we went back to we love nancy we went back and
00:23:20.760asked her if that's what she saw since she's not releasing the picture of nolan that she has which
00:23:25.900i understand out of respect for the family but we asked her is it is it the case that he was fully
00:23:30.940clothed again because that that could potentially change this case i mean if he was wearing street
00:23:36.080clothes and found washed up on the shore then he wasn't swimming it undermines the case that he
00:23:43.580could potentially have drowned. I mean, it doesn't completely rule it out. They'll know that after
00:23:47.800the autopsy, but fully clothed would be different than in a bathing suit. So we went back and her
00:23:54.180executive producer just got back to us saying the United Cajun Navy reported today on Nancy's show
00:23:59.600that Nolan's body was found with just the swim trunks, no shirt or shoes. So now we have a bit
00:24:06.980of a discrepancy because Ben Crump today said he was fully clothed, used that term fully clothed,
00:24:13.320And you've got the United Cajun Navy, which was they weren't the actual ones that found Nolan's remains, but they were in the air when it happened and they were part of the search team.
00:24:22.240So presumably they did have eyes on him after he was found and they reported just the swim trunks, no shirt, no shoes, which would be consistent with what was in the picture that Nolan's mother posted saying she got it, we believe, from one of his friends on how he looked that day, July 4th.
00:24:41.000And that would potentially support the possibility, at least, that he drowned while in his swimsuit and still in the waters.
00:27:56.660I mean, I've covered enough of these kinds of stories to know that it typically takes a while before an autopsy is released to the public or released to the media with the full result.
00:28:05.900Usually that has to wait for the toxicology, which does take weeks.
00:28:10.380At times, though, they do release a preliminary report, which is essentially what we saw from Ben Crump's team for their independent autopsy.
00:28:19.560But in a lot of ways, and I don't know if everyone's kind of seeing it as such, both sides are kind of saying the same thing.
00:28:25.920You had Ben Crump today looking at the autopsy, the private autopsy that they did independently
00:28:32.920And then you have the investigators initially saying they don't suspect foul play.
00:28:36.660Neither one of those things are definitive because, as you've said several times, an
00:28:40.980investigation hasn't been completed yet, but it needed to be done.
00:28:44.620And I think that's what we keep getting stuck on is there has not been a lot of information
00:28:49.540that has come out from investigators, but the family's team are the ones doing the talking.
00:28:54.920So that leads everyone who's doing the watching to speculate and fill in the gaps.
00:29:00.940OK, one of the things that I can't get past in this case is if you go the Ben Crump route, which clearly seems to be attacking Nolan's friends.
00:29:10.860How could they possibly have killed Nolan in this setting, Caitlin, where you've got scores of people, hundreds by some reports of other teenagers and young people and others all parked there on their boats having a great time celebrating Fourth of July?
00:29:29.500Like, the implication is that they did something to Nolan.
00:29:50.500Like, did they take him out right in front of all these people?
00:29:54.480Are they accused of having left the boat, sneaked into some wooded area, and gotten rid of their dear best friend who they've loved since childhood with zero reports?
00:30:05.980Any credible ones, we'll get to the lie that was told, of a fight or an altercation between them.
00:30:13.620The theory about how any of those other friends, those pals that he came out to the island with, could be involved has never really explicitly been suggested.
00:30:23.300it's a lot of speculation. It's a lot of question marks. It's a lot of fill in the blanks where
00:30:27.760we as people following the case or the public as people following the case will their minds can
00:30:33.420kind of go whatever direction they may think. But there's nothing explicitly been said regarding
00:30:38.180those three friends as in they took the phone. Like you said, they took the phone, they took
00:30:42.280him, they brought him out somewhere, they killed him and then they dumped him. That has never been
00:30:46.100said. There's been more questions surrounding that. And in a lot of ways, I'm with you in saying
00:30:52.480it doesn't make sense to me that these friends could have said he stayed on the island to talk
00:30:56.960to a girl we left he said he was going to come back later we had his phone he never came back
00:31:02.760that can be true and something also still could have happened to nolan on that island these things
00:31:08.520are not mutually exclusive i don't think pointing the finger at a group of people is is prudent
00:31:15.440until there's a reason to point a finger at a group of people no matter who they are but i also
00:31:20.140think that the point you made about there being, by all accounts, several hundred people, several
00:31:24.500hundred young people who knew each other from the local area and the local schools on this island,
00:31:30.700no one saw anything nefarious happen. But it doesn't sound like anyone saw Nolan Wells struggling
00:31:37.920and drowning, which also strikes me as odd with hundreds of people, how no one could have said
00:31:45.960anything one way or the other that to me is one of the biggest bits of the mystery how this he by
00:31:53.120every account lovely funny gregarious guy who was not a wallflower could have disappeared on this
00:32:00.240island and either something bad happened to him or something tragic and accidental happened to him
00:32:05.200but nobody saw anything no one has a photo no one has a video that to me is shocking and and
00:32:12.180confusing. And we don't know. We know something happened to Nolan Wells. We just don't know when
00:32:19.020we don't know when, when did he drown or if he drowned or when did he die? We, we, we know he
00:32:24.720was missing as of a Saturday evening, July 4th, and he wasn't found his body until Monday morning,
00:32:30.660early Monday morning. So we, but the coroner should know, I mean, they can find basically
00:32:35.060with an autopsy in general, time of death, date of death, how long a body's been, been dead,
00:32:40.960how long it's been in the water. All of that's knowable. I've done countless interviews with
00:32:45.800Dr. Michael Bodden and other forensic pathologists over the years just to know that.
00:32:50.040The only evidence of an altercation, something that would suggest Nolan had a fight, etc.,
00:32:58.880revolves around this one audio tape in which you can hear somebody saying, like, give me back my
00:33:05.640phone. And the people who want to blame these other boys, the white boys in Mississippi have
00:33:11.960pointed this out saying, this is Nolan. They're taking his phone. It's evidence that these kids
00:33:16.940did something to him, but it turns out this isn't Nolan's voice. This is somebody else's voice.
00:33:23.140And those kids have come forward to say, you've completely misrepresented this tape. I will play
00:33:28.240the tape and then we can talk about it. It's video in which you can hear the voice. Sat 11.
00:33:35.640okay you i can't hear anything there but there is a situation in which they're
00:33:53.920they're arguing over a phone like give me back my effing phone um let me see if if i have the actual
00:33:59.980quote uh okay i'm looking for it it's pretty close to i don't see the actual it was pretty
00:34:08.200close to yeah give me back my effing phone give me back my it was it sounded like an altercation
00:34:12.540between them and it was gone out into the media with the assumption that the person screaming
00:34:17.600giving back my give me back my phone was nolan wells that is what the initial thing was and
00:34:23.380then you have someone saying actually that was me you have traced in shepherd one of the friends
00:34:29.380speaking with Rolling Stone, saying that was me, that he was just out of frame, hanging on the
00:34:36.760water along the shore, that he is the one who was saying that. And he doesn't believe Wells
00:34:41.700was in the footage. He says those were not Nolan's words. They were mine. I get that everybody wants
00:34:46.980justice for Nolan. Everybody wants to know exactly what happened. And yet here's how Ben Crump
00:34:52.140talked about that video satan they have this video of an argument that is going on and and
00:35:03.980you know thank god all young people they have cell phones and anytime you hear people raising
00:35:11.000their voice they start the video and so you hear on the video nolan saying give me my freaking phone0.96
00:35:18.880What are you freaking doing? And that becomes even more relevant when you think about the story that they are presenting that Nolan chose to stay behind. That's what they're saying.
00:35:38.700So, I mean, at every turn, he's been misleading. Am I wrong?
00:35:43.660You know, with this particular instance, it's so interesting in how he worded it, saying it's relevant, because it is relevant until it's proved otherwise. And once someone else came forward and said, that was me, that's when you stop looking into that route. We have no reason not to believe, Tristan Shepard, that it wasn't him on it.
00:36:03.240So when the initial video came out and this other person didn't say it was him, of course it's worth looking into.
00:36:09.220But once someone else says, that's not him and that's not him, I'm guessing, that's not him, that was me, then I think we move on from that.
00:36:18.000I think it's important not to get hung up on that, on things that could distract.
00:36:22.260Megan, you know what gets me about all of this right now, about the photo of the four boys on the boat and that video that I think is getting lost?
00:36:30.580clearly photos and videos were taken that day from anybody's phone from anybody's boat so the
00:36:39.340fact that we haven't seen a ton of those is shocking to me you should be able to find nolan
00:36:45.560in the background of a dozen selfies i mean i know that's what i do when i go out for fourth
00:36:51.760of july is if it was you and me on an lbi because i'm from jersey like if it was you and me there on
00:36:57.3804th of July, we, of course, would snap a couple of photos together. It's shocking that we haven't
00:37:02.420seen more than these two, really. I mean, just a handful.
00:37:06.900No, it's a very good point. And one of the things that remains a mystery here is the boy's story
00:37:13.320is that Nolan stayed behind because he wanted to talk to a girl. And that's the reason he didn't.
00:37:18.700Now, there were three boats, so it wasn't a big risk to stay behind when one was going back to
00:37:22.840the mainland. But they said the reason he didn't get on their boat is that he wanted to talk to a
00:37:26.900girl and we don't know who this girl is or whether the authorities have talked to her what do we know
00:37:33.680about the girl we have a an alleged name we have a half story based on what people have been saying
00:37:41.580online that it was possibly a girl named katie because someone purporting to be katie's mother
00:37:46.620had gone on social media after um after nolan had gone missing and said yeah basically it was my
00:37:51.960daughter and we've talked to nolan's family and from what we know they stopped they chit-chatted
00:37:57.500it was very quick and then he was going back with his friends and she went on her merry way whether
00:38:03.780or not the authorities have spoken to her whether or not that's even the right person i mean how many
00:38:08.480girls nolan was such a handsome guy like how many girls on fourth of july in a pool of 200 could
00:38:17.120this guy have spoken to that day or wanted to speak to? Probably a handful. But again,
00:38:22.180all of these things can be true, and it doesn't change what actually happened. Like you said,
00:38:27.340not a big risk for his three friends to say, we're going back now, and him say, I'm going to talk to
00:38:31.500this girl and catch a ride later, and then talk to the girl, and then he was going back to his
00:38:36.180friends. All of those things could be true, but that doesn't get us to the finish line of how did
00:38:40.140this poor boy end up face down in the water after two days of being missing? There is a large gap
00:38:47.580here that can't be explained. And the autopsy report should be able to answer some of that,
00:38:53.640like you mentioned, whether or not there was water in the lungs. Something that Ben Crump did mention
00:38:57.860during his press conference was that the stomach contents was not something his medical examiner
00:39:02.220could determine. That is important for determining time of death as well. When was the last time this
00:39:06.500person ate. So it was kind of half results. And we really won't get those answers until we get
00:39:12.120the full autopsy. And then from there, there's so many different routes of investigation that
00:39:17.360have to be done. But like you said many times, an investigation still needs to be done and getting
00:39:21.640caught up in the extraneous details or the little routes that people are taking or things that
00:39:28.060don't really involve Nolan directly is losing sight of the point. Yeah, it's worse than a
00:39:34.960waste of time it is a corruption of people's open-mindedness and willingness to help by
00:39:40.780shoving false information and theories down their throats and we we just like each one turns out to
00:39:46.520be completely untrue here's the the other one is uh that this is ben crump again pushing that there
00:39:54.480is this photo all right this is via the the daily mail the the photo was shared online by benjamin
00:40:00.660Crump. And he shared it in an Instagram post suggesting that Nolan Wells may have made it
00:40:06.320back to the mainland and attended a pool party before he died. The post stated social media
00:40:12.840allegations claim a photo exists of Nolan at a land-based pool party in Jackson County before
00:40:19.5801 a.m. on July 5th. So he tweets that out. But again, Trayston Shepard, Nolan's friend, told
00:40:25.860Rolling Stone. He's familiar with this photo. It is not from July 4th at all. It happened a week
00:40:34.080earlier. It was June 27th at 1158 PM. And he actually then shared the metadata, a separate
00:40:42.060person actually provided Rolling Stone with the metadata from the pool party photo to prove that
00:40:47.700it was taken on June 27th at 1158 PM. Not when, not, not the night that Nolan went missing,
00:40:53.960Not your life. This is just, you know, I'm sorry, but if you're an honest broker, Ben Crump, then you update your Facebook post or your Instagram post and you say turned out to be nothing, you know, or you then update your post about the viral boat argument and say this friend, Tracen Shepard, is saying that it was Tracen, not Nolan in that.
00:41:15.420But he does nothing. He does none of that. He has zero interest in getting to what's true.
00:41:20.980He and Al Sharpton only want to get to what will further divide people and and pour more fuel on the fire.
00:41:29.920Listen to Al Sharpton. This is him on Monday at the funeral. This is right on brand for this guy.
00:41:37.360sought nine the story of what we have faced in america is a question that started in the first
00:41:46.520book of the bible with the first siblings am i my brother's keeper
00:43:43.720And so I think it's important to keep coming back to, okay, what happened, what happened, what happened. But then with these things, this is the conversation that does get sparked. I mean, what's interesting, and I'm not necessarily playing devil's advocate, but it's so fascinating to me how we pick our stories because you've been doing this such a long time. I've been doing this such a long time.
00:44:04.880There is such an enormous amount of news that comes at us every single day.
00:44:10.600And these parents of Nolan's reached for whatever bit of help they could get.
00:44:16.460And I don't know if they hadn't gone to Ben Crump if you and I would be talking about this.
00:44:20.820So personal feelings about how Ben Crump deals with things and how Ben Crump operates as an attorney and as an orator and as an activist.
00:44:28.760it did get an enormous amount of social media attention and media attention on it but the
00:44:37.820problem that can come into play with that is losing sight of the real reason which is giving
00:44:45.220these parents some peace and that's all i keep hearing from staying factual being factual and
00:44:50.660giving just staying factual yeah absolutely which which they don't yeah they're not they're not
00:44:55.280committed to. I really think you put yourselves in their hands and you're in the hands of a pariah.
00:45:01.800Your son's memory actually will be bastardized and forgotten and diminished and demeaned. He
00:45:07.740will barely be mentioned, barely be mentioned. It will be all about Al Sharpton's views on Cain
00:45:13.840and Abel. I mean, this is unbelievable where he says, this is all about, am I my brother's keeper
00:45:18.020or will we out of some emotion, some anger, jealousy, envy, maybe some bigotry decide rather
00:45:25.520than deal with building up the beauty that God put in us, that we will harm our brother and
00:45:30.620through some malice, try to hide it. I mean, this is like unbelievable, but that blood is going to
00:45:37.040haunt you. He goes on to talk about Emmett Till happened here. Medgar Evers happened here. Based
00:45:43.240on the history, we got to be able to dig deep. So he's going to hold all the history of the Deep
00:45:48.980South and Mississippi against these boys who loved this black boy, who were great friends with this
00:45:55.800black boy, who were best friends, some of them with him. They will get tarred because of the
00:46:00.680history of the Deep South. That is criminal. It's disgusting. And I'm sorry, but his parents are
00:46:06.700allowing it. We don't know what happened. It's so to to jump to judgment in any direction at this
00:46:12.960stage in the game is socially, politically so dangerous. I mean, it's very much to the point
00:46:18.440that you're trying to make right now to me, that it's, we don't know what happened. We don't know
00:46:24.660if he was harmed by another person. We don't know if he slipped and fell. We don't know if he
00:46:29.580drowned. We don't know if there should be blame placed on anyone at this point. And it is kind
00:46:35.980of dangerous to go down that road. But the only way we can figure out if a charge should be filed
00:46:43.480or a finger should be pointed is getting the investigation completed and the answer. So the
00:46:48.440longer that the investigators take to give any information, the more this type of rhetoric is
00:46:54.980going to continue to grow. Yes. Yeah. We don't know. And we certainly don't know if anybody had
00:47:01.720something to do with his death who who it was i mean it presumably we'll find that out like you
00:47:07.820point out there's going to be tons of photographic evidence and videotaped evidence to be you know
00:47:12.980that is one of the mother's concerns and i understand that she says nolan was constantly
00:47:17.720on his phone snapchat photographing videotaping and that they found none of that on his phone
00:47:24.200suggesting to her that it had been wiped clean all of that will be knowable caitlin right with
00:47:29.220the metadata from the phone, a forensic examination of the phone will show us whether stuff had been
00:47:34.920wiped, stuff that may still be in the cloud and not yet deleted. Absolutely. You know, like if
00:47:40.020that actually happened, that'll be part of the investigation for sure. And part of the grand
00:47:44.580jury, because this will go to a grand jury, which is typical. It is standard procedure when there
00:47:49.540is a suspicious, not natural death that they would take the evidence, take it to a grand jury in the
00:47:54.420area and then decide if there is any sort of crime that possibly could have been committed and it
00:47:57.820could rise to the level of going to filing official charges against someone, anyone. So
00:48:04.020as part of that, I would hope that a forensic analysis of his phone would be looked into,
00:48:09.600because, I mean, moms know. Moms have a gut instinct that, you know, you know what your
00:48:14.420kid does. You know how often your kid is on the phone. You know how often he's on Snapchat and
00:48:17.480you see nothing on there. Sure, you're curious. You're curious as to why your son didn't come
00:48:21.600home, but his phone did. I don't like to go anywhere, really, without my phone. I can't
00:48:25.640imagine a 19 year old saying, I'll stay, go ahead and take it back with me or forgetting,
00:48:29.800but there's also any number of reasons. But I can imagine a mistake. Absolutely. I can imagine a
00:48:33.460mistake and I can imagine. I can imagine that he's out there with his friends on the boat,
00:48:37.560swimming, having fun, whatever they're doing. And you're not on the, one of the rare times where a
00:48:41.680teenager's not on his phone and then his phone's on the boat. He decides to stay and he forgets
00:48:47.500about it because he's, you know, that is the one time when you're frolicking in the ocean or the
00:48:51.200water or what have you, that you're not really on your phone or thinking about your phone.
00:48:53.960So I can see that happening. I do. I do wonder about the clothing, though. Let me play you, Ben Crump, today on the body and how it was found.
00:49:03.540South 13. The fact that they told us we haven't heard from any of their local officials that Nolan was found face down, fully clothed.
00:49:16.140Well, that's significant to us because the last time we saw him on the videos, he was without a shirt.
00:49:22.720So at what point did he put on a shirt?
00:53:12.420What happened to or will we out of some emotion, some anger, some jealousy, some envy, maybe some bigotry decide rather than deal with building up the beauty that God put in us, that we will harm our brother and through some malice try to hide it.
00:53:28.700But the Bible says that the victim's blood cried from the ground.
00:53:32.120I hear this morning Nolan's blood crying from the ground.
00:53:34.680Am I my brother's keeper or am I the keeper of some secret?
00:54:02.920want to get to the legal elements of the Nolan Wells story, plus updates on Sonny Hostin's son's
00:54:07.760arrest and the Carmelo Anthony case. Big updates in that. Three of our favorites for today's
00:54:12.880Kelly's Court. We've got today MK True Crime co-host Dave Ehrenberg, former prosecutor for
00:54:18.380Palm Beach County. Find him on Substack, too. Also, In the Well co-host Matt Murphy, former
00:54:23.580prosecutor. Find both of those shows on all podcast platforms and YouTube. Just go to mktruecrime.com.
00:54:29.600With them today, defense attorney, host of the Arthur Aydala Power Hour. Arthur Aydala, long time, long time friend of the show and of yours truly. Guys, welcome back to you all. Wow, what a docket we have today.
00:54:43.960Let me just tell you, Benjamin Crump and Al Sharpton, that is where you go if you want truth to die in the name of fostering more racist attitudes in America.
00:54:58.380Benjamin Crump is the person who fueled nationwide outrage when he, quoting here from a great article written at GC Wire, E. Brian Rose, who reminded us of some of his worst hits.
00:55:12.460in 2021 fueled nationwide outrage when he told the world 16-year-old Michaela Bryant was unarmed
00:55:19.200in her yard when police arbitrarily shot her. Do you remember Michaela? Michaela Bryant? Remember
00:55:25.220this girl? She was the one. Do we have a soundbite or a picture, you guys? Look, this is the girl
00:55:30.500with the knife. Look at this. Remember this picture from just a few years ago when she is0.93
00:55:35.820charging at an officer with a long knife about to butcher him. That's why the police officer
00:55:42.260opened fire against her. Not if he asked Ben Crump, who told us all she was unarmed when they
00:55:48.440arbitrarily shot her. Did he publicly retract his claims after the body camera footage came out
00:55:53.280showing that that cop was about to die at the hands of her knife? No, he didn't. He's the same
00:55:58.340guy who represented the family of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, who created the hands up
00:56:04.500don't shoot myth. Remember that claimed that Michael Brown was innocently, you know, shot down
00:56:12.140by that officer there. And then when Eric Holder, who was running the DOJ under Barack Obama came
00:56:19.660out with five black witnesses who said that Michael Brown had charged the officer. And that's
00:56:26.880why they didn't think that they should bring charges against that officer for shooting him.
00:56:29.920did did he come out then and retract his claims about it was hands up don't shoot no no he let0.92
00:56:36.540that lie stand we could be here all day if i went through the ben crump race lies not to mention al0.87
00:56:42.000sharptons whose are even worse and more infamous if that's even possible so you tell me i don't0.66
00:56:48.820start with you matt murphy on whether you think this is being handled judiciously by the sharpton
00:56:53.800crump you're gonna get me in trouble megan you're gonna get me in trouble listen um it's what else
00:56:58.560One of the things just listening to that as as a former prosecutor, I know, Dave, Dave was thinking the same thing.
00:57:05.660And I could see Arthur licking his chops when when these people start offering rewards for convictions.
00:57:15.340Al Sharpton threw up fifty thousand dollars for information leading to a conviction.
00:57:19.760There's apparently like a thousand kids on that island during this.
00:57:23.960And, you know, you've just incentivized a witness.
00:57:26.880So let's say this thing goes in a completely different direction than I think it's going.
00:57:30.860Let's say there is a criminal prosecution.
00:57:33.440That kind of stuff is your worst nightmare as a prosecutor, because now you've just incentivized witnesses to be dishonest.
00:57:53.060It's you take one word and you throw so much emphasis into it that it's almost comedy.
00:57:58.240If this wasn't so tragic and so awful, especially for this victim's family, it would be I mean, these guys are cartoon characters as they do this.
00:58:05.920And it's incredibly divisive. It's totally toxic to the to the national discourse.
00:58:10.240And it's it's a it's there. I completely understand your position that they're taking advantage of the bereaved family.
00:58:17.620And it's awful. Megan, if I can, I've a witch hunt.
00:58:21.880i've been in search of a witch and we don't know whether there's any witch involved whatsoever go
00:58:26.360ahead arthur i've uh i've been in ben crump's i've been both you know as you know garpton is a new
00:58:32.580york fixture and um i've got to spend a little time with with ben crump both of them are absolutely
00:58:39.060totally different than what you just saw on the screen especially crump he's like very quiet
00:58:45.500very very like awkwardly quiet awkwardly humble but i will tell you this megan and i'm being
00:58:52.220sincere i have never seen a man hovered in diamonds like and i'm assuming they're real
00:58:59.420diamonds i'm gonna check out if they're cz's i mean he had diamonds his watch had to be a quarter
00:59:04.740of a million dollars uh his lapel he had a lapel pin i don't even remember what it was of but it
00:59:10.640was all diamonds um his cufflinks were all diamonds like big you know i've been married
00:59:18.020a couple of times i know a thing or two about diamonds like i'm like i'm like this is crazy
00:59:23.700so when you know sharpen says we're not making any money here well he can't just so you know and
00:59:29.160you know you remember this uh megan he's can't be making any money here al sharp because he still
00:59:34.960owes the toana brawley guy like millions and millions of dollars because you falsely
00:59:39.460accused that poor cop i don't know two decades maybe three decades ago i mean that's how we
00:59:44.820found out who al sharpton was based on a total lie a total lie but that's how we know who his name
00:59:51.780what his name is and there's a huge judgment uh pending against him so to say uh for al sharpton
00:59:58.720to say you know i'm not in this for the money or ben crump saying i'm not in this for the money
01:00:02.220that just it just defies reality right sure and that that ben crump you know the lies about that
01:00:09.280McKay Bryant case were so awful. She was want to correct what I said. She was charging another
01:00:13.920woman with that knife. And that's why the officer shot her in defense of others. And he goes out
01:00:18.800there and says there was absolutely no reason for him to do it. And you see the video, it's like a
01:00:22.140big butcher knife. It's like, what do you, what do you mean? What cop wouldn't shoot in order to
01:00:26.800protect another? This was a big deal when it happened. And an honest broker would have come
01:00:30.380back out and said, I'm sorry, got that one wrong. Of course that she was unleashing deadly force on1.00
01:00:37.140another, but that's not the business they're in. You know, Dave, what do you think should happen
01:00:42.220in this case? In this case, you were recently the Palm Beach County attorney. How would you
01:00:47.020be handling this if you had, you know, the family, forget the race hustlers who are representing
01:00:51.600them, but the family saying, I have got real questions about what happened to my boy and
01:00:56.420the friends saying, we have no idea. We left him behind at three o'clock or four 30 that day and
01:01:01.300he was fine. Megan, I don't think you can look at this in a vacuum. It's just reality that we're
01:01:07.340dealing in Mississippi where they have a history of racial discord and discrimination. And so when
01:01:13.120we're critiquing Ben Crump, who, by the way, I've worked with in the past, the Corey Jones case that
01:01:18.420came through my office. And actually, I like working with Ben and he and Al Sharpton. We may
01:01:24.240have different views on some things, but they have lived a different life experience. So just to make
01:01:30.520that point lord have just make that point because you know you have different life experience than
01:01:35.400the three of us white guys on this panel don't bust out lived experience lived experience doesn't
01:01:40.460make you lie about mckea bryant or michael brown or anybody else it doesn't make you see a bunch
01:01:46.580of white people and say they're killers when there's zero evidence well in the brian case0.65
01:01:51.000ben crump spoke before the video came out and then after the video came out you're correct
01:01:55.360He didn't retract his comments, but he did shift it towards systemic failures.
01:02:33.100That has nothing to do with his lived experience, Dave.
01:02:35.900David, you have the right to remain silent.
01:02:37.800Anything you say can and will be held against you by Megyn Kelly.
01:02:41.040So I would just tread very lightly, my friend.
01:02:44.100I am treading lightly, but I'm saying this, that when we critique and we critique this
01:02:49.180case in Mississippi. Just keep in mind that we're not just judging it like in a vacuum that Mississippi
01:02:55.020has had a history of racial discord and discrimination. So when so when they come in that
01:02:59.780I reject that entirely. That is using sins of the great great grandfathers who may I use that term
01:03:07.820euphemistically. They may probably have no who the hell knows how long these families have been
01:03:11.600Mississippi against the child. These boys didn't stumble upon some black kid. They are going to0.97
01:03:16.980teach him a lesson they were best friends with him dave this is ridiculous they loved him that
01:03:22.180the evidence is universal right now that they were best friends with him that they had a lifelong
01:03:27.840friendship with this kid that they did everything together this is not they found emmett till like0.98
01:03:33.580this is bullshit what's being done maybe it'll turn out that there are these raging racists who0.96
01:03:37.960turn on their friend right now there's zero evidence of that all the evidence is that they0.99
01:03:42.140care deeply for him megan there is zero evidence of foul play here when you look at the facts of
01:03:46.640this, you see that that Nolan was loved by his friends and the evidence that somehow there was
01:03:54.560violence or that because he was found with his clothing on as opposed to his swim trunks.
01:04:01.180First off, there's a dispute on that, as you correctly showed in the last segment.
01:04:04.180And also, if there was violence, there would be one of the many bystanders who would be a witness.
01:04:09.580There would be some video. Every kid has a camera out. So we would know. But what Ben Crump and
01:04:15.800Al Sharpener saying is that they had a separate independent medical examiner who they said was
01:04:20.760undetermined. They couldn't determine it. Okay, that's not inconsistent with what we know now.
01:04:26.120And also just my last point is that they're calling for more transparency. And in this case,
01:04:31.940I do think because this is my point of the history of Mississippi, they should go out of the way to
01:04:36.860be more transparent than normal. They have not been. Where's the toxicology report, right? Where
01:04:41.760is the medical examiner report yet right where's the medical examiner report and right away when
01:04:46.900the cops came out and said there's no foul play here they did that well without any of these
01:04:50.700reports in their hand i think they should have more transparency before they speak out i say look
01:04:55.820i don't know the sheriff john ledbetter said wells's friends were cooperating that investigators
01:05:00.400don't suspect foul play that's all right and i don't know in new york in new york they don't
01:05:05.900release the medical examiner's report until the toxicology report is out and you know unless
01:05:11.180there's a okay there's a bullet wound to the head okay it's a little different but when they're at a
01:05:15.860point where they don't have an actual they're not certain of a cause of death and they want to get
01:05:20.020the toxicology report out and any other uh any other scientific or laboratory tests needed that
01:05:27.340that's when they uh that's when they release it when it's totally done and don't forget you know
01:05:32.340they made a big deal about oh his throat wasn't there guess what none of his organs were there
01:05:36.580when they perform an autopsy they take all the i mean it's not pretty we i i guess all of us have
01:05:44.020seen it they just take all your organs out they weigh them they cut them they look at them they
01:05:47.760put them in a literally in a hefty bag and if there isn't going to be a second autopsy sometimes
01:05:53.900they just stuff it right back in the belly and then sew it up and then you go to the funeral
01:05:57.700parlor and they deal with it so look what bench crump did in that news conference was he broke
01:06:05.020down a very friendly medical examiner's report and just try to throw any little bit of doubt out
01:06:11.860there almost like he's a criminal defense attorney and a summation well they're not sure about this
01:06:16.760you can't be sure about that you can't determine this we don't have the throat and megan i did
01:06:22.100talk to a former medical examiner and he did say it's not as easy to know someone drowned as you
01:06:28.740may think and you look at like a lot of different aspects of it like if there's um seaweed in their
01:06:35.200stomach and it looks like okay they swallowed all of this water so we don't know and some of that is
01:06:39.740going to come back in the laboratory reports about whether he drowned it's the anniversary right now
01:06:44.680of malcolm jamal warner the famous actor who just who just drowned in or drowned exactly a year ago
01:06:51.060um you know in costa rica just swimming and he got caught in the riptides that you spoke about
01:06:56.160in the beginning of the show which seems like it's the most obvious answer of what really happened
01:07:00.920and you know what he didn't have it does yeah he didn't have a cell phone the one place that's one
01:07:05.700question and with the poor mom why why didn't he have his phone why were there new pictures we don't
01:07:10.760swim with our cell phones we still haven't reached that point where they're actually waterproof so a
01:07:14.960kid who's swimming leaves his phone on the boat it's the easiest answer to to so many of these
01:07:20.180things but but look going back to what Dave said I with this case I really I agree with Dave on that
01:07:25.920I wish that they would be more transparent because it's going to come back as as a drowning.
01:07:32.200I guarantee that's what they're going to come back.
01:07:33.760And what Arthur was talking about, Arthur's right.
01:07:36.420It's called an end block removal, Megan.
01:07:38.620And what they're doing is it's called it's strap muscle dissection.
01:07:41.680And they're looking for signs of strangulation.
01:07:44.020But like Dave has seen a million times and Arthur's seen a million times.
01:07:47.640When you actually observe an autopsy with strangulation, there's a tiny little bone that breaks called the hyoid bone.
01:07:53.680There's a thing called petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes.
01:07:56.340There are all of these external manifestations.
01:07:59.740And it depends on the office, but sometimes they'll do that as a matter of course.
01:08:03.960But that indicates to me that if they did an N-block removal, they didn't find anything obvious.
01:08:09.940And I thought that I was expecting something way worse from this private pathologist today.0.70
01:08:16.360And I almost, you know, kudos to him saying it's inconclusive.
01:08:19.740That sounds exactly right if they're still missing organs.
01:08:22.520I expected, and I bet my fellow panelists here expected the same thing, that we were going to get Ben Crump up there saying they found clear evidence of foul play because a body washing up is going to have scrapes and it's going to have bumps and bruises that are post-mortem.
01:08:38.780But all three of us have seen that a million times where a private pathologist will come in and make claims that turn out later to be untrue.
01:08:47.160So I was pleasantly surprised by that, that they had so little to work with in that press conference.
01:08:52.520today and just to be clear on that on the throat the front of the throat missing because when i
01:08:58.080first saw that i was like oh my god what is that evidence of foul play are they suggesting somebody
01:09:01.960strangled him and then and got rid of that part of the evidence on the body but no because if you
01:09:07.980listen to the full ben crump soundbite he says the medical office the the original medical examiner
01:09:14.520didn't give that to us and he's like we want to see that still suggesting that that is a body part
01:09:20.920that the original coroner still has that wasn't delivered for this second independent autopsy
01:09:27.200to to look at and and they want it. So but but again, the initial initial statement was that
01:09:34.220there are no signs of foul play. So to your point, if they had seen in the front throat,
01:09:37.960the hyoid hyoid bone broken, I don't think they'd be out there saying no signs of foul play.0.99
01:09:45.180That would just make the sheriff look like an idiot, which he doesn't want. So0.99
01:09:48.840So there's more to, you know, be investigated. I agree with what Caitlin said. We need photos. These are young kids. It's 4th of July. There's going to be more photographic and videotape evidence probably pouring into the police right now. And hopefully no one will be in some of those past 430 when that boat left.
01:10:06.940They started having boat trouble around 3. At 4.30, they left. And that's not disputed because they called into, I think, the Coast Guard or somebody asking for help because they thought they were sinking as their boat took on water. And we know when they got back to the dock.
01:10:21.900So right around then to, you know, later that night, the search began around 11.
01:10:27.320We need everybody's cell phone, everybody who was there to turn in and see if there's
01:11:01.380But in a case like this, I would like to think that the sheriff has some two, three, four officers on that island where these kids are partying every day since this happened until now.
01:11:13.200And it's called canvassing just talking to all of them.
01:11:16.020what have you heard what do you know where did you see where were you would you turn over your
01:11:20.700phone and just do that old school like you know hand-to-hand combat because what one the video
01:11:28.460you showed of the kid on the podcast said let me see it was four thousand three thousand kids on
01:11:33.400the island or something along those lines so someone's got to see something at some point
01:11:38.580and those kids go back to that island it's not just like it's a july 4th thing this is a beautiful
01:11:43.300weekend coming up well i'm speaking in new york i don't know what's going on down there but you
01:11:47.160know i'm sure weekend after weekend you're gonna have the repeat people going when you just have
01:11:51.780cops saying hey can i talk to you for a second and doing that hundreds and hundreds of times
01:11:56.040there's there's more information to be had and i'm happy to see them investigate i'm not happy
01:12:02.060to have these race hustlers get ahead of their skis and casting aspersions on his friends or
01:12:06.780anybody else for that matter without knowing anything all right let me keep going there's
01:12:11.300news today in the Carmelo Anthony case. The Collin County DA, his name is Greg Willis,
01:12:16.560is speaking out for the first time since Carmelo Anthony filed this motion for a new trial.
01:12:22.100They filed it right away after the conviction. It was July 7th they filed.
01:12:25.700As a reminder, last month, a jury rejected Carmelo's self-defense arguments. They found
01:12:29.380him guilty of murdering 17-year-old Austin Metcalf after stabbing Austin in the chest
01:12:34.840for no apparent reason at a track and field meet in April of last year down in Frisco, Texas.
01:12:40.700Both both of the boys were 17 at the time of the stabbing. That same jury sentenced Carmelo to 35 years in prison. Then Carmelo got a brand new legal team right after the conviction. And one of the arguments the brand new legal team is making on appeal is that they want a new trial.
01:12:55.680And one of the arguments that they're that they're positing is that the prosecution, they say, breached an undocumented pretrial agreement between the prosecution and the defense in which both sides allegedly pledged not to introduce, quote, character evidence, character, reputation or extraneous conduct evidence concerning either.
01:13:20.680Either. Austin Metcalf, the victim, his brother, Hunter, his twin brother, or the defendant, Carmelo Anthony, we're not going to do character evidence on any of these.
01:13:33.480And the defense really wants us to know when they're filing that they had negative things they could have said about Austin, the dead 17 year old and his brother.
01:13:41.400And they list some of it there like, oh, we held off because of this gentleman's agreement.
01:13:46.540And we were told that the prosecution would hold off with respect to Carmelo.
01:13:50.360The filing describes the agreement as, quote, off the record, which is a weird term because
01:13:54.640we use that in journalism, but it's atypical in a legal proceeding.
01:13:58.300I mean, like a secret off the record agreement between the prosecution and the defense, what
01:14:02.160we're not going to introduce in a case involving a 17 year old potentially going to jail for
01:14:10.260But now Carmelo's lawyers claim that the prosecution violated the agreement in the
01:14:14.780course of the trial when they informed the court on the final day of testimony that the pact would
01:14:20.980not apply to carmelo anthony if he took the stand in his own defense and uh they also said by the
01:14:27.780way carmelo's attorneys they were the first to breach this this deal um if we had it because
01:14:34.160they opened the door to character evidence when in in their opening statement they mentioned that
01:14:39.380carmelo anthony played chess so if we secretly had an agreement not to offer any character
01:14:44.660or extraneous evidence about, you know, who these kids are in their free time. Why'd you mention
01:14:49.600that? Now, according to Carmelo Anthony's lawyers, Carmelo then only had 10 minutes to decide
01:14:55.500whether or not to testify after learning that the prosecution might indeed bring up character or
01:14:59.860reputation in a cross-examination of him. And he ultimately decided not to take the stand.
01:15:04.420They're suggesting as a result of knowing the prosecution was going to introduce character
01:15:08.920evidence. That decision was incredibly controversial since his entire defense was
01:15:14.480self-defense. And you heard here and elsewhere, a lot of lawyers say you can't really effectively
01:15:19.380make a self-defense claim without testifying, without having the defendant testify. So now
01:15:23.600this is his defense team trying to justify their decision. So Carmelo's trial attorney was a guy
01:15:28.760named Mike Howard. He's not part of the appeal. We introduced you to this guy. Remember he had
01:15:33.300that little video like, oh, geez, you know, I'm just a sweet guy. I'm like this nice guy who gets
01:15:38.400along with opposing counsel. In fact, we have that. I'm going to play part of it. Not all of
01:15:41.620it. So 20 watch here. So what kind of lawyer do you want? Do you want an aggressive junkyard dog
01:15:49.500who's going to fight for you hard? Or do you want somebody who has a reputation as easy to get along
01:15:56.200with? The answer might surprise you. While, of course, it's important to have somebody who
01:16:01.580fights for your rights. And he goes on to say, I'm the second kind. So I'm like the nice guy.
01:16:05.780I want to keep going. So that's Mike Howard. Now he's not part of the appeal, but he was the trial
01:16:11.400lawyer. And he wrote in an affidavit that his client's decision not to testify was, quote,
01:16:15.140a 180 degree change in the defense strategy. And it was a direct consequence of the breach
01:16:21.020of this gentleman's agreement. So now the DA is speaking out and disputing what's in that filing,
01:16:28.160as I just outlined to you, speaking to CBS, to CBS Texas's J.D. Miles, who obtained the trial's
01:16:37.600transcripts. Watch here. It's clear that many of these claims don't match what actually happened
01:16:44.660in court. Collin County D.A. Greg Willis says the trial transcripts obtained by CBS News Texas
01:16:49.980refute those claims when the judge and attorneys met behind closed doors during the trial
01:16:55.140to discuss whether Anthony would take the stand.
01:16:58.100During a discussion about the agreement, Howard says,
01:17:00.780I agreed that that deal, for lack of a better term, has held.
01:17:04.540I believe both parties have abided by it.
01:17:06.940The agreement became a problem for defense attorneys
01:17:09.220because it would limit what they could ask Anthony without violating it.
01:17:12.860And because Judge Roach was not bound by it, telling both sides,
01:17:16.680I am not here to enforce agreements between parties in a criminal case.
01:17:20.380If asked to make a ruling, it will be based on the rules of evidence.
01:17:24.280So, by the way, you heard him there saying the agreement became a problem for the defense attorneys because it would limit what they could ask Anthony, what they defense attorneys could ask Anthony if he were to take the stand.
01:17:34.600So the defense could not introduce you're never been in trouble before, have you, son?
01:18:37.660I was disappointed and, frankly, a little confused.
01:18:40.560I mean, I was there for every minute of the trial, and Bill Worski and our prosecution team, they conducted this case so fairly and cleanly and professionally.
01:18:48.180We asked Carmelo's new legal team, as well as his trial attorney, for comment on what the DA said there.
01:18:54.960We have not yet heard back. We'll update if we do.
01:18:58.000The DA expressed confidence that Carmelo's conviction would be upheld.
01:19:01.140CBS Texas reports a hearing on the motion for a new trial could be held as early as next month.
01:19:06.140Still with me, attorneys Arthur Idala, Dave Ehrenberg, and Matt Murphy.
01:19:09.760This is a juicy one. I'm dying to talk to you about this.
01:19:12.980I mean, Matt, what, 25 years as a prosecutor?
01:19:16.220Have you ever heard of an agreement like this?
01:19:17.980And the DA seems to be admitting that there was one.
01:19:41.920And you get, I don't know, 90% of things sort of worked out between you if you're getting
01:19:46.840along with opposing counsel. So having a conversation about what's coming in, what's
01:19:51.320not coming in isn't unusual. The decision to to take the stand and expose yourself to impeachment
01:19:58.280is that's like first day of law school kind of stuff. And I this is a head scratcher to me. I
01:20:04.640I don't see this going anywhere. Maybe maybe Arthur or Dave disagree. But Dave is shaking
01:20:11.540his head as you're talking i don't know why tell us all day i agree with matt a handshake deal
01:20:16.580that that's what this is about like a gentleman's agreement uh and that that doesn't really hold
01:20:22.680water in court the court's not going to accept that that's an appellate court's not not going
01:20:27.060to accept that and plus when they say well that meant we were rushed we only were given 10 minutes
01:20:32.100to decide whether we should take the stand whether carmelo should take the stand that's not true the
01:20:37.920The defense actually had more than 30 minutes.
01:20:40.400They had he had time to consult with his parents.
01:20:43.100The judge gave the defendant a thorough step by step explanation of what not taking the stand or taking the stand would mean about his constitutional rights.
01:20:51.860So the defendant owns the final decision on taking the stand.
01:20:55.380They can't lay this on the prosecutor, especially when there was no agreement in front of the judge.
01:20:59.880Maybe some handshake behind the scenes.
01:24:05.900I've got far worse in my head that I filter out.
01:24:08.240But but look, this is we have all the three of us have done this case over and over and over again that the kid who stabs another kid at a party tragically is a part of American life.
01:24:21.420It happens. There's like all of our blood vessels go out on our left side.
01:24:26.100That's why people used to think the heart was on the left. And it's most people are right handed.
01:24:29.260You see this over and over and over again, especially once we all saw the video.
01:24:32.920So I don't want to speak for anybody else, but this is so run-of-the-mill average.
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01:28:33.940News only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111 and on the Sirius XM app.
01:28:43.860Back with me now, two former prosecutors turned defense attorneys and hosts on our MK True Crime
01:28:49.520channel, Dave Ehrenberg and Matt Murphy had to say goodbye to Arthur, who's got other stuff to do.
01:28:54.560Guys, how does that grab you, Matt, when you hear me describe you as a defense attorney now?
01:28:59.940Odd. Odd. Although I just did have a big win on a police officer case, which has sort of shades of a lot of these other cases. It was a guy who shot a gang member who had turned out later was a BB gun and BLM got involved. And it was three and a half years of horror show for this poor guy. And we just won that. So sometimes being a defense lawyer can be very rewarding. So no regrets.
01:29:26.540How are you, Dave? How are you feeling? The first time I was in court just late last year about after I became a defense lawyer, the court turned to me and said, OK, anything more from the defense?
01:29:37.960And I stared at him because I could we stared at each other for like like five, 10 seconds like, oh, oh, that's me.
01:29:44.460So, yeah, it's still hard to get used to. As you can see, for most of my comments, not the first segment, but most of the time I'm on your show, I still take the prosecutor's point of view.
01:29:54.680Well, you're taking the point of view of truth, Dave. That's the, that's the thing you're calling
01:29:58.560it as you see it. And most of the time they're getting it right. And Megan, I cannot tell you
01:30:01.440how many times I still will say when the court goes to me, I'll say Matt Murphy for the people.
01:30:06.760I just can't get it out of my, out of my brain. The defense people, the people charged. That's
01:30:13.540who I'm here for. Those people. Okay. Yeah. So here's what we know now in the case against,
01:30:19.500I don't know his last name. I don't know if Sonny Hostin's son is named Gabriel Hostin. I just know
01:30:25.720his name is Gabriel, and he's 24 years old, and he's now been charged. He's been given a citation,
01:30:31.720I guess we shouldn't say charged necessarily, for trespassing in this railway where he was
01:30:40.240allegedly jogging or running, but wasn't allowed to be there. And there are no trespassing signs,
01:30:46.580which are pretty visible all over the place reportedly. Now, the Westchester County DA's
01:30:53.080office, they say the next court appearance is confirmed for July 31st in New Rochelle City
01:31:00.520Court. So he does have to show up there and answer to this citation. But it was sort of an interesting
01:31:06.620conversation that we had with, let's see, hold on, I want to make sure that I know who I'm talking
01:31:15.060about with the New Rochelle PD. Okay. The New Rochelle PD tells us the following that jogging
01:31:20.820near the train tracks in that area of New Rochelle is not common because there are,
01:31:26.440there have been questions about like, was he jogging? Why were they so determined to give
01:31:30.480him a citation? What was really going on here? They say jogging in that area is not at all common
01:31:35.520that there, um, that wooded areas and an Amtrak track are nearby, but this is not a typical route
01:31:43.560for pedestrians or joggers. The tracks run close to some areas, but most of that stretch is fenced
01:31:49.140off. He said it's not a place that the average person would end up unless they deliberately
01:31:54.340climbed onto the tracks. He said he does not know why this individual was in this location,
01:31:59.740noting the area is clearly marked and difficult to access as well. Says it's uncommon for people
01:32:06.280to end up on the tracks. When it happens, it's more often homeless individuals. He said the
01:32:11.380entrance ramps in the area are not near residential blocks and that there are not really sidewalks
01:32:18.360along these ramps describing the area as not a typical jogging route though nearby side streets
01:32:22.820are used for jogging okay so we don't we don't really know what what this 24 year old man was
01:32:29.360doing there uh he claimed jogging but the police were very determined first they handcuffed him
01:32:34.940then they removed those then Sonny Hostin arrives and says this is a Harvard grad Harvard grad
01:32:39.520Harvard grad, Harvard grad. By the way, I had a big interview today. Everyone's talking about it.
01:32:44.860Wink, wink. I'm on The View, who had hosted J.D. Vance earlier that day.
01:32:49.840Did I mention Harvard? And also now a Yale researcher. Yale researcher. Yale. Yale.
01:32:55.700Never been in any trouble, okay? And then asked if they could not cite him, but they said we're
01:33:01.100going to have to. And so you guys tell me whether they should go through with this citation exercise,
01:33:06.520which reportedly carries a $500 fine.0.81
01:33:35.340that's not how you operate like there are some people who mention it every turn cambridge when
01:33:40.600i was in cambridge and there are others like you who don't do that well thank you man yes i uh i
01:33:46.620was fortunate i went to public schools and then went to harvard and uh didn't have a mom who could
01:33:50.660get me out of any crimes now in this case the police seem to handle it well i mean they they
01:33:55.760downgraded it to that citation where it wouldn't be a criminal charge but it is a non-criminal
01:34:02.260citation where you can get a fine because he was cooperative. He has had no priors, no prior record.
01:34:08.300So I think that the police handled it normally. I think Sonny Hostin, I think in retrospect,
01:34:14.360wishes she did not act like that because it was caught on those body cams. And no one wants
01:34:19.680someone who is a celebrity to invoke privilege to get their kid out of a situation. It really
01:34:26.000reeked of a Harvard grad, Matt Murphy, would never commit a crime. That's only for uneducated
01:34:34.220losers like the guys who built these tracks. Obviously, my Harvard grad, Yale researcher0.99
01:34:41.100would never commit a trespass. That's what it reeked of. It was disgusting.
01:34:46.180Yeah, look, I think that one of the challenges of a real prosecutor, the goal is to do justice.
01:34:52.240And one of the challenges on this one, I think, is to make sure that nobody goes heavier on him or lighter on him because of who his mother is or who his father is or who anybody is.
01:35:02.840Like, it's very important to treat him like he would treat anybody else that came across your desk.
01:35:08.840And for something like this, I mean, for me, Dave, this one just kind of screams out like a diversion thing.
01:35:15.220Like he takes a class, pays some money for the victim's restitution fund, you know, finishes a, you know, whatever the diversionary class would be and just gets it dismissed.
01:35:24.280And that's that's the way I would see a case like this being handled just on a regular, everyday thing, Megan.
01:35:31.700And and also full disclosure, I knew Sonny before she became famous from after her days as a federal prosecutor.
01:35:38.960And I disagree with a lot of what she says politically.
01:35:41.940she's always been very nice to me. And I think Dave's right. I bet she reps some of that. And
01:35:48.640she's trying to help her kid, you know, and I'm not making any excuses.
01:35:55.180He's not exactly a kid. He's 24 years old. But OK, sure. No, I said before, look, if my son or
01:36:02.400daughter called me and they were in handcuffs, I would show up. I would help them. But I would not
01:36:07.240play the elite education card, nor would I play the I'm on camera or in my case, unlike hers,1.00
01:36:15.640I defend cops all the time and I'm not some knee jerk, you know, all cops are bastards1.00
01:36:21.380like her show is. Um, so, but I've, I would never play that. I don't know. Like you tell me,0.99
01:36:28.300you guys are both former prosecutors. You get pulled over for, for speeding. Do you drop
01:36:32.420Former prosecutor, former federal prosecutor in your case.
01:36:58.200I am not upset that police downgraded it to a non criminal offense.
01:37:01.300first time offender. He was cooperative, but it is a issue that you and a lot of people are
01:37:07.260talking about because of what the mother did. Yep. It's not. That's interesting because like
01:37:12.020you guys actually could play that card and don't. I have other cards that I could play and I never
01:37:16.980have. And I just wouldn't. And most of us wouldn't because we understand it's just not
01:37:20.360appropriate. You just don't manipulate a police officer like that. You can defend yourself in
01:37:24.440court on the merits or not, or just pay the fine, but you don't try to play those cards. And while
01:37:30.440in your day job, you're ripping on everybody else's privilege all day. It's just completely
01:37:34.500hypocritical. Okay, we'll see what happens at the end of the month. Last but not least,
01:37:39.660Timothy Busfield is dealing with these charges against him, these criminal charges against him
01:37:45.240relating to these two twin boys who used to star on the show that he directed called The Cleaning
01:37:52.140Lady. These boys have alleged that he touched them inappropriately, and he's been charged with
01:37:57.000four counts of criminal sexual contact of a minor for allegedly touching their private parts.
01:38:02.140That's what they claim. Now, that sounded bad enough. But then we found out that the two
01:38:08.480parents, both parents of the twins, appear to be a couple of grifters. And it did throw this case
01:38:16.100into a whole new light. And not just like they had some trouble with the law here or there,
01:38:21.440But like crimes of dishonesty, which you guys know, that stuff always comes in like that is the law treats those as special when it comes to cross examining a witness, because they do speak to a certain aspect of your character that's highly relevant in a judicial proceeding.
01:38:38.980Now, the boys, the boys are innocent. The boys did not have any sort of dishonesty in their past. They're only children. But the parents, the father spent three years in prison for fraud, wire fraud conspiracy. The mother has a number of civil judgments against her related to gambling debts and writing bad checks.
01:38:57.680Okay, so I do feel the need to say that for Timothy Busfield.
01:39:00.700But right now, what's happened is the Daily Mail has gotten its hands on Timothy Busfield's appearance before the grand jury as it was deciding whether to charge him.
01:39:09.440And I got to say, guys, very bizarre statement that the grand jury heard.
01:39:15.400Here it is from the February 5th proceeding as obtained by the Daily Mail.
01:41:02.880I spent four years in the sexual assault unit, and I know Dave has seen maybe even more of these than I have.0.98
01:41:07.820You do see false accusations coming through the mouths of kids from crazy parents.
01:41:12.140And you see it all the time, most commonly in custody disputes, where there's an allegation that a little kid will make, you know, from the mom saying, dad, you know, my dad touched me.
01:41:22.020And you look and you look and it's a brutal custody dispute.
01:41:25.820I hate the parent's background on this.
01:41:28.400I think that that that makes me very uncomfortable.
01:41:31.600And this case, those those statements that he just made are terrible.
01:41:36.920But he did he did say the right thing.1.00
01:41:39.200I'm not attracted to p-pubescent little boys.0.99
01:41:41.140as weird as that is it's a very important factor to sit to consider honestly megan um i i think i
01:41:48.120would dump this if i was the prosecutor um i don't i don't think they'll ever get any conviction on
01:41:52.900this case once you get a look at at the parents resumes and on top of that as he pointed out in
01:41:59.940that testimony there was allegedly a promise by the mother to get busfield that's right who she
01:42:05.420reportedly blamed for her sons losing their role. They were replaced by a younger model.
01:42:10.740It can happen even as to a child. It's very sad. I don't know. We'll see. We'll watch it play out.
01:42:16.540But I believe him that his career is ruined. However, it's not just because of this allegation.
01:42:21.820A bunch of others came out with these young women here, there and everywhere claiming he
01:42:27.080had been inappropriate with them. So it's about much more than just these boys at this point in
01:42:31.340terms of his PR problems. Guys, a great discussion. Wonderful to see you both. No more Palau. Back
01:42:38.160to work. Matt Murphy, Dave, great to see you too. Thank you. Back from Cambridge, right where you
01:42:44.420belong. Tomorrow we are back with Emily Jashinsky. Don't forget to check out our crime series tonight
01:42:50.360on our MK Show feed. JonBenet Ramsey, part three. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.