The Megyn Kelly Show - Investigating the Nolan Wells Story, and How Crump and Sharpton Have Racialized It, with Aronberg, Murphy, Aidala, and Caitlyn Becker ｜ Ep. 1365

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.320 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.680 Kelly's Court is back in session on the docket today. Several hot-button topics.

00:00:50.360 We will discuss whether the judge should throw out the trespassing violation against

00:00:54.780 Sonny Hostin's son, Gabriel, will also take a close look at new court documents filed in Carmelo

00:01:01.320 Anthony's murder conviction appeal. His lawyers are blaming the prosecution for the fact that

00:01:09.260 Carmelo never took the stand in his own defense, and the DA in the case is now speaking out. We'll

00:01:15.400 show you that. But we begin with new developments in a story getting a lot of attention right now,

00:01:20.500 And that is the death of 18 year old Nolan Wells, a Mississippi college freshman whose

00:01:26.760 disappearance after a 4th of July boat trip has become a national story immediately after

00:01:34.000 Nolan went missing on July 4th.

00:01:36.660 But before his body was found, his parents had suspicions about the friends he went out

00:01:42.200 partying with that day, most of whom were white, alleging conflicting accounts among

00:01:48.240 friends. Nolan was black and the possibility that messages had been deleted from Nolan's phone

00:01:55.060 possibility, not established fact. Fact. They were also suspicious about how his phone made it back

00:02:03.620 onto his friend's boat. The friends returned to shore without Nolan, but Nolan did not. Why would

00:02:10.980 Nolan separate from his phone? And why would his friends have the phone, but not Nolan?

00:02:17.340 They also say local authorities were too quick to believe that this was an accident.

00:02:21.560 This is the parents expressing their doubts, Nolan's parents, instead of launching a full

00:02:25.460 investigation.

00:02:26.980 The parents believe that they can't trust the local authorities and believing that they

00:02:32.560 reached out for help and of course made the critical error of turning to Benjamin Crump

00:02:38.680 and Al Sharpton, which completely changed this entire case.

00:02:42.720 because if you want to be taken seriously by most of the country you should never reach out

00:02:48.240 to those two race hustlers or no one will take you seriously again no one will not what no one

00:02:55.640 will be able to look at anything those two say through an objective lens so this was a terrible

00:03:01.300 terrible mistake by parents i'm sure are extremely distraught and were probably confused about where 1.00

00:03:07.340 to turn and perhaps did not know about the extremely sordid history of these two race

00:03:13.420 hustlers who have a long established history of even of being proven liars on race, of

00:03:22.560 injecting it where it doesn't belong, of inflating it into something more than it actually is.

00:03:27.720 You name it, they've done it while getting rich off of the goodwill of people in the

00:03:35.840 black community and the white community, for that matter, and beyond, who are convinced by their 0.66

00:03:41.940 lies. Nolan's mysterious death has now turned into insinuations of murder, possibly by the 0.60

00:03:52.260 white boys he was with, who, as far as we can tell, were his best friends on earth, absolutely

00:03:58.960 loved and adored Nolan, and are getting blamed for his death because they're white and they're

00:04:05.420 from Mississippi. I'm sorry, it's beyond effed up. Right now, this looks like a terrible tragedy 0.57

00:04:14.740 that needs to be investigated because it is unclear what happened to Nolan after he stayed

00:04:22.160 behind. But there is zero evidence his friends hurt him. Zero, zero. And the witch hunt for the

00:04:32.680 white boys from Mississippi, is a bit much.

00:04:36.140 The answer to the loss of one young boy's life is not abject, unfounded ruination of 1.00

00:04:44.700 all of his friends' lives because the decedent is black and their survivors are white. 0.99

00:04:51.340 With zero proof, they laid one finger on him. 0.87

00:04:56.480 Again, all the evidence so far seems to be that they loved and adored him and he them.

00:05:03.460 Nolan Wells was last seen alive on Horn Island.

00:05:06.640 It's an island 10 miles from Mississippi.

00:05:08.960 The only way to reach it is by boat.

00:05:11.220 Nolan had gone there with his friends that he knew from high school and childhood.

00:05:15.720 They arrived on this island on July 4th around 11 o'clock a.m.

00:05:21.100 Warren Hudson says that he was Nolan's best friend.

00:05:24.760 He was with Nolan on Horn Island on July 4th in a new interview with conservative host

00:05:30.460 Brandon Tatum.

00:05:32.280 Warren says the group of friends traveled to the island in three separate boats

00:05:37.320 and that Nolan was drinking alcohol that day.

00:05:42.180 We had roughly 20 to 30 people coming on three separate boats with us.

00:05:49.560 And so we were all following each other out.

00:05:51.200 There was one big group.

00:05:52.560 You know, it wasn't just me and Nolan and a couple of my buddies.

00:05:56.300 There was 20 or 30 people spread out where we all met at the dock before.

00:06:00.440 and then we departed to go to horn island it wasn't just a couple of us i mean we were there

00:06:05.280 were so many people we had to split up between three boats and we all left and all got there at

00:06:09.460 the same time roughly probably two to three maybe even four thousand people out there there were

00:06:15.000 boats lined up off the island everybody's drinking you know i mean it's fourth of july everyone's

00:06:21.740 just trying to enjoy themselves and you know it's a big party basically big party i talked to nolan

00:06:26.560 And, you know, Nolan was drinking. Everybody was drinking. Most of everybody. And I mean, Nolan seemed completely fine every time I talked to him. We had just regular conversations and, you know, Nolan was making me laugh. I talked to Nolan a couple of times, but it wasn't like I was strictly sitting there talking to Nolan the whole day. I mean, there was hundreds of people I knew out there.

00:06:48.560 So. Nolan's friends say they last saw Nolan around 3 p.m. on the island. Warren Hudson's stepmother said that she was told she had a Facebook post, two of them, said she was told that Nolan decided to stay on the island after a boat carrying some of the boys left earlier because that boat was taking on water.

00:07:10.740 She said there was a problem with the bilge pump, and there actually is a call by these boys, two of the authorities, saying, we think we're sinking.

00:07:17.580 Can we get some help out here?

00:07:19.260 The belief by the friends who were leaving was that since they all came out on three boats that Nolan would get a ride back on one of the remaining boats.

00:07:27.860 It was not a big deal to them.

00:07:30.000 However, Nolan never made it back to the mainland.

00:07:33.120 A massive search was launched that evening.

00:07:35.520 The next day, on Sunday, Nolan's mother posted several images of Nolan from July 4th asking anyone for help.

00:07:44.260 One of those images we're showing here.

00:07:48.380 Later that same day, it shows for listening audience, Nolan sitting with three friends, just because now they've injected race into this story.

00:07:56.740 I will tell you the three friends are white. 0.65

00:07:58.600 Nolan's right in the middle of them.

00:08:00.380 He's black.

00:08:01.180 He's wearing a blue bathing suit and he doesn't have a shirt on and neither do the other boys.

00:08:08.580 So later this same day after Nolan's mom posted this, she posted this message, quote, we were provided with incorrect information regarding what he was wearing.

00:08:17.040 I was sent this picture.

00:08:18.260 As you can see, he was in blue swim trunks, not black.

00:08:22.240 So clearly earlier she'd been told he was wearing black swim trunks.

00:08:25.280 And in this photo, he was wearing blue.

00:08:27.060 and she seems potentially irritated about that discrepancy.

00:08:33.300 I mean, I'm sure this mom is distraught at this point when she posts this and is still looking

00:08:37.420 for her son on Sunday after July 4th. On Monday, two days after Nolan went missing,

00:08:44.940 his body was found. This is aerial footage of that moment taken by the organization Cajun Navy,

00:08:51.240 which was helping in the search. Nancy Grace reporting that she did see images

00:08:55.940 of nolan wells's body which she chose not to air but she said that nolan was found face down on the

00:09:03.820 beach still fully clothed we don't know what that means fully clothed we don't know if that means

00:09:09.760 a bathing suit and a rash guard you know like street clothes you know like pants and a button

00:09:15.620 down or whether anybody could even tell from the photos that have been released to a few so that's

00:09:23.160 one of the mysteries still unsolved in this case. What does fully clothed mean? Because we heard it

00:09:28.180 again today as Ben Crump held a news conference. We'll get to that in a second. Now, this area is

00:09:34.380 apparently known for its strong rip currents. And I will tell you, just being at the Jersey Shore

00:09:40.280 all summer, unfortunately, for years now, unfortunately, every summer someone dies

00:09:45.900 thanks to strong rip currents. And it tends to be somebody who's not familiar with the area. Now,

00:09:50.720 Nolan was familiar with this area. This was apparently a popular island. There were tons

00:09:55.080 of people, which is a relevant fact. We'll get to that more in a bit. But the authorities say

00:10:01.260 that there were very strong rips. People know it. And a strong rip can take down even a strong

00:10:09.040 swimmer if he panics. You cannot swim your way out of a rip current. What happens is it takes

00:10:16.620 you it pulls you out into the ocean and a panic sets in because you feel like you're going to be

00:10:20.840 pulled way out to the point where you will drown because you can't swim back in or you'll get hit

00:10:26.360 by a boat or you'll get attacked by a shark or whatever runs through your head that makes you

00:10:30.380 panic and you try to swim through the rip current back to shore and the rip if you've ever seen i'm

00:10:36.560 sure you have the animation showing what how a rip works but it basically comes it looks like a

00:10:41.160 current pushing you straight out to sea from the beach that's kind of how it appears so you cannot

00:10:46.580 fight mother nature the ocean stronger than you are if it wants to take you out it's going to

00:10:50.560 take you out the only two things to do in a rip current are either let it take you and when it

00:10:54.440 ends and they don't tend to be that long um you know that that in length when it's done with you

00:11:01.180 when the current stops then you wave your arms and somebody will get you the lifeguards normally

00:11:05.140 can see you or civilians can see you um and you can do it just by letting yourself float so you

00:11:10.260 don't exhaust too much energy or you can swim to the side which is what what most people who are

00:11:14.120 pretty experienced do, and you swim sideways out of the rip. But in any event, we don't know that

00:11:19.940 it was a rip that took Nolan. We don't know what killed Nolan right now. The authorities said that

00:11:26.960 they did not suspect foul play, but they say the complete findings from the autopsy are going to

00:11:32.940 take weeks. Now, on Tuesday, the day after Nolan's body was found, that's when his parents hired

00:11:39.260 Benjamin Crump. By that Friday, the parents, Christine and Elmore Wansley, no idea why their

00:11:46.280 last name is different from Nolan's, they traveled to New York City to do a press conference with

00:11:51.860 Benjamin Crump at Al Sharpton's National Action Network headquarters. Mistake. Again, huge mistake.

00:11:59.380 Sharpton spoke first, followed by Crump, before the parents even spoke about their son.

00:12:04.660 Crump talked about Mississippi's fraught racial history. Watch.

00:12:09.260 The history of Mississippi is something that they don't just read about in books,

00:12:17.100 but it's a lived experience for many black Americans

00:12:22.000 that oftentimes when our children are killed in highly questionable situations

00:12:31.300 that there is this notion that, oh, it was nothing wrong, no foul play,

00:12:39.260 let's just sweep it under the rug well we refuse to sweep it under the rug the glaring

00:12:46.000 contradictions i just jump out at you the fact that he is there with his friends and you look

00:12:57.180 at all the videos it seems to be he's the only black on the island or maybe one other but not

00:13:05.840 many. Okay, that does not prove that his friends are racists. If anything, it proves that they're

00:13:14.800 not. They had plenty of white boys they could have limited their social circle to. They chose 0.67

00:13:20.340 not to do that because they don't see everything through a racial lens, potentially, Ben Crump,

00:13:26.280 like you do. Honestly, the fact that these white kids loved and befriended a black young man is

00:13:34.740 being used against them what the f at the same press conference nolan's mother said one of the

00:13:41.940 reasons she was suspicious was because nolan's phone was found again away from nolan i grant you

00:13:48.600 that would raise questions for me too what teenager separates himself from his phone though it can

00:13:53.400 happen accidentally or otherwise but she looked at nolan's phone when she got it and she found

00:13:59.220 no pictures from that very celebratory July 4th day. So when we made it home, my sister and I

00:14:11.120 actually went through Nolan's cell phone, particularly Snapchat, because that is so popular

00:14:17.420 with the children. And when we opened it up, there was nothing. There were no saved pictures.

00:14:26.300 there were no snaps from that day and we did open it before the 24 hour expiration

00:14:35.000 so we found that very concerning only because anyone who's ever been around Nolan will tell

00:14:44.380 you at social gatherings he's taking videos he's taking pictures but I do want to say this

00:14:51.720 I would hope that any parent who, God forbid, would be in our situation, I would hope that you would do the same thing.

00:15:06.000 I would hope that you would ask for any help, receive any help to get answers, because at the end of the day, that's all we want.

00:15:18.740 we just want to know we just want to know what happened and why our baby didn't come home

00:15:27.560 i understand i don't begrudge her that search one bit it's very unfortunate she fell into the

00:15:37.340 crosshairs of those two just race hustlers that's there's just no other word for them that's what

00:15:43.700 they are they're dishonest race hustlers and they exploit so many families pain in order to 0.96

00:15:48.720 to further their own agenda. They don't care about her, in my opinion. They only care about 0.93

00:15:54.500 their own wallets and reputations, and they don't care about truth. That's a fact provable

00:16:01.540 by their past behavior. The family also discussed several other reasons why they are suspicious

00:16:09.180 about how Nolan died. They did not believe that Nolan would choose to stay on an island without

00:16:15.560 his friends they believe one of the friends delayed finding nolan's car keys when the dad

00:16:21.940 late that night showed up at his house nolan had left his car and his car keys at a friend's house

00:16:26.660 before they got on the boat that morning and by the evening when they're looking for him the dad

00:16:30.380 goes over to that friend's house to say can i have his car keys in his car um and the friend kind of

00:16:35.520 said i don't i don't think they're here and there was a bit of pushback by the dad and finally the

00:16:40.600 kid then said, oh, we found them. And I guess the dad found that somewhat suspicious. And we're

00:16:45.480 going to get into more of these theories in our discussion in one moment. But yesterday,

00:16:51.220 Benjamin Crump announced that he would be releasing the results of his team's independent

00:16:57.060 preliminary autopsy. Now, this preliminary autopsy done by his team, there was already

00:17:03.240 one by the state officials. They said they found no foul play. But now his team wants to conduct

00:17:08.740 an autopsy, which they've done. It was paid for by former NFL player Colin Kaepernick.

00:17:15.420 Crump announcing that it would be produced by his team and announcing it with a full screen

00:17:25.060 promo touting breaking and that the results would be released during a press conference

00:17:31.340 at the NAACP headquarters in Chicago. I mean, because if you've got big breaking news in a case,

00:17:38.280 about an autopsy of a young man, this is what you do.

00:17:43.100 You promo it.

00:17:43.940 You got to tease it.

00:17:45.820 Tease.

00:17:47.000 As opposed to just announcing what the results were,

00:17:50.220 like a dignified professional who's been asked by grieving parents to help them.

00:17:56.360 So he did hold his big presser today, and Nolan's parents attended.

00:18:01.540 Ben Crump saying this morning that the independent autopsy they had conducted

00:18:06.600 by a guy who runs howard university's uh medical program you know the medical school program um

00:18:14.720 says that the the independent autopsy states that nolan wells's cause and manner of death are quote

00:18:22.280 undetermined pending further investigation crump saying one of the reasons and apologies because

00:18:29.120 this is graphic information, is that they can't reach a determination, is because Nolan's throat

00:18:37.440 was not delivered with the rest of his body for the second autopsy. Listen.

00:18:45.600 We presented this report on July 19th. Preliminary report, second autopsy, death of Nolan Xavier

00:18:52.680 Wells. Cause of death, undetermined, pending investigation. But he said the throat was

00:19:01.400 not with the body of Nolan Wells when he received it in Washington, D.C. to perform the second

00:19:08.340 autopsy. He said, nevertheless, a posterior neck dissection performed without review of

00:19:17.720 the anterior neck structures is incomplete. Therefore, this pathologist cannot rule out

00:19:25.960 injury to the neck as a contributor or a cause of death. He said he would need to have the

00:19:36.140 medical examiner in Mississippi allow him to review the throat. That's why he said his

00:19:44.920 The autopsy is undetermined pending investigation.

00:19:49.160 Remember, it's about transparency.

00:19:53.420 Okay.

00:19:54.800 So, Crump also said the pathologist could not rule out whether Nolan Wells was conscious or unconscious when he entered the water.

00:20:02.640 And as a result, foul play could not be ruled out.

00:20:05.340 Watch.

00:20:06.000 He did not know whether he was conscious or unconscious when he entered the water.

00:20:14.920 He said that would be significant. He said he did not know whether he was forced into the water or unforced into the water. He said that would be significant.

00:20:29.620 So he said the condition of Nolan Wells before he entered the water would be the crux of the matter.

00:20:38.420 It would be of utmost importance to being able to determine a cause and manner of death.

00:20:49.400 He said definitive circumstances of death are required to determine the manner of death.

00:20:59.620 For these reasons, this pathologist cannot rule out if any intervening non-accidental factors contributed to or caused the death of known whales.

00:21:29.620 understand. He said, based on the examination of the body, he cannot rule out file plan.

00:21:43.340 Couldn't rule it out and didn't rule it in. At the end of the press conference,

00:21:47.520 Ben Crump led a chant. Justice for Nolan Wells. Justice for Nolan Wells.

00:21:54.220 He has no idea what happened to him.

00:22:18.600 He does not know that anything was done to Nolan Wells.

00:22:23.240 He is whipping up a frenzy in this room at the NAACP for his own purposes, in my opinion.

00:22:33.380 Justice for what?

00:22:35.860 Nolan Wells may very well have drowned accidentally.

00:22:39.500 And a point of clarification, because we heard on Nancy's show that Nancy had asked this,

00:22:49.100 somebody from the cajun navy that was searching for nolan wells a great search agency she asked

00:22:55.340 quote nolan was face down still fully clothed on the beach is that correct and the cajun navy guy

00:23:01.920 said yes that is correct he was face down and that is why we quoted her as saying he was still fully

00:23:10.460 clothed on the beach she said it and then asked if it was correct and the cajun navy guy said yes

00:23:15.500 that is correct and then added he was face down so we went back to we love nancy we went back and

00:23:20.760 asked her if that's what she saw since she's not releasing the picture of nolan that she has which

00:23:25.900 i understand out of respect for the family but we asked her is it is it the case that he was fully

00:23:30.940 clothed again because that that could potentially change this case i mean if he was wearing street

00:23:36.080 clothes and found washed up on the shore then he wasn't swimming it undermines the case that he

00:23:43.580 could potentially have drowned. I mean, it doesn't completely rule it out. They'll know that after

00:23:47.800 the autopsy, but fully clothed would be different than in a bathing suit. So we went back and her

00:23:54.180 executive producer just got back to us saying the United Cajun Navy reported today on Nancy's show

00:23:59.600 that Nolan's body was found with just the swim trunks, no shirt or shoes. So now we have a bit

00:24:06.980 of a discrepancy because Ben Crump today said he was fully clothed, used that term fully clothed,

00:24:13.320 And you've got the United Cajun Navy, which was they weren't the actual ones that found Nolan's remains, but they were in the air when it happened and they were part of the search team.

00:24:22.240 So presumably they did have eyes on him after he was found and they reported just the swim trunks, no shirt, no shoes, which would be consistent with what was in the picture that Nolan's mother posted saying she got it, we believe, from one of his friends on how he looked that day, July 4th.

00:24:41.000 And that would potentially support the possibility, at least, that he drowned while in his swimsuit and still in the waters.

00:24:50.060 We just don't know at this hour.

00:24:51.760 And while the local coroner has said no signs of foul play, they did not announce that he had drowned.

00:25:01.260 So I don't know what that's about because that's knowable from the remains upon autopsy generally.

00:25:09.240 you can see whether there's water in the lungs and whether somebody drowned. So I don't have an

00:25:15.280 answer for you there. It remains a mystery and there should be an investigation. We shouldn't

00:25:19.840 just close the books and say, okay, it's done because it's not done, but an investigation is

00:25:25.180 underway. I mean, we reached out to the local coroner's office before the show and they said

00:25:31.000 that they don't have any information on this autopsy being done by the Ben Crump guy

00:25:36.360 from howard university they said that was an independent private autopsy and they directed

00:25:41.880 us to the da's office for any questions that we have they're not answering questions today

00:25:46.780 he did confirm that the state medical examiner's office did the first autopsy and said that they

00:25:52.680 have not gotten the report back from that first autopsy that the testing around it is still pending

00:25:59.140 so this is basically something they're waiting on i'm sure there's a toxicology screen among

00:26:05.960 other screens that they've sent out for testing that will probably take days or weeks, and

00:26:10.580 they're not going to get ahead of their skis unannouncing anything until that comes back.

00:26:16.020 And so we should wait before we draw any conclusions or make any assumptions, unlike

00:26:20.840 Ben Crump's team.

00:26:22.520 Joining me now is someone who's been following closely this story, Caitlin Becker.

00:26:26.760 Caitlin is host of the New York Post cast, which is the New York Post's podcast, and

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00:27:40.880 Caitlin, welcome to the show.

00:27:42.140 Great to have you.

00:27:42.880 Thanks for having me, Megan.

00:27:43.480 So am I correct then that there's no, the local coroner has done their own autopsy.

00:27:49.320 The local medical examiner's office has done their own autopsy,

00:27:52.040 but has not yet announced a cause of death.

00:27:54.920 Exactly.

00:27:55.340 And that's not unclear, Megan.

00:27:56.660 I mean, I've covered enough of these kinds of stories to know that it typically takes a while before an autopsy is released to the public or released to the media with the full result.

00:28:05.900 Usually that has to wait for the toxicology, which does take weeks.

00:28:10.380 At times, though, they do release a preliminary report, which is essentially what we saw from Ben Crump's team for their independent autopsy.

00:28:19.560 But in a lot of ways, and I don't know if everyone's kind of seeing it as such, both sides are kind of saying the same thing.

00:28:25.920 You had Ben Crump today looking at the autopsy, the private autopsy that they did independently

00:28:30.600 saying they can't rule out foul play.

00:28:32.920 And then you have the investigators initially saying they don't suspect foul play.

00:28:36.660 Neither one of those things are definitive because, as you've said several times, an

00:28:40.980 investigation hasn't been completed yet, but it needed to be done.

00:28:44.620 And I think that's what we keep getting stuck on is there has not been a lot of information

00:28:49.540 that has come out from investigators, but the family's team are the ones doing the talking.

00:28:54.920 So that leads everyone who's doing the watching to speculate and fill in the gaps.

00:29:00.940 OK, one of the things that I can't get past in this case is if you go the Ben Crump route, which clearly seems to be attacking Nolan's friends.

00:29:10.860 How could they possibly have killed Nolan in this setting, Caitlin, where you've got scores of people, hundreds by some reports of other teenagers and young people and others all parked there on their boats having a great time celebrating Fourth of July?

00:29:29.500 Like, the implication is that they did something to Nolan.

00:29:33.860 They then took his phone.

00:29:36.120 They then wiped his phone and went back to the mainland and came up with some cockamamie story that he stayed behind to talk to a girl.

00:29:47.360 Like, what is the theory?

00:29:49.760 Do we know?

00:29:50.500 Like, did they take him out right in front of all these people?

00:29:54.480 Are they accused of having left the boat, sneaked into some wooded area, and gotten rid of their dear best friend who they've loved since childhood with zero reports?

00:30:05.980 Any credible ones, we'll get to the lie that was told, of a fight or an altercation between them.

00:30:10.480 Do we know what the theory is?

00:30:12.300 Not specifically, Megan.

00:30:13.620 The theory about how any of those other friends, those pals that he came out to the island with, could be involved has never really explicitly been suggested.

00:30:23.300 it's a lot of speculation. It's a lot of question marks. It's a lot of fill in the blanks where

00:30:27.760 we as people following the case or the public as people following the case will their minds can

00:30:33.420 kind of go whatever direction they may think. But there's nothing explicitly been said regarding

00:30:38.180 those three friends as in they took the phone. Like you said, they took the phone, they took

00:30:42.280 him, they brought him out somewhere, they killed him and then they dumped him. That has never been

00:30:46.100 said. There's been more questions surrounding that. And in a lot of ways, I'm with you in saying

00:30:52.480 it doesn't make sense to me that these friends could have said he stayed on the island to talk

00:30:56.960 to a girl we left he said he was going to come back later we had his phone he never came back

00:31:02.760 that can be true and something also still could have happened to nolan on that island these things

00:31:08.520 are not mutually exclusive i don't think pointing the finger at a group of people is is prudent

00:31:15.440 until there's a reason to point a finger at a group of people no matter who they are but i also

00:31:20.140 think that the point you made about there being, by all accounts, several hundred people, several

00:31:24.500 hundred young people who knew each other from the local area and the local schools on this island,

00:31:30.700 no one saw anything nefarious happen. But it doesn't sound like anyone saw Nolan Wells struggling

00:31:37.920 and drowning, which also strikes me as odd with hundreds of people, how no one could have said

00:31:45.960 anything one way or the other that to me is one of the biggest bits of the mystery how this he by

00:31:53.120 every account lovely funny gregarious guy who was not a wallflower could have disappeared on this

00:32:00.240 island and either something bad happened to him or something tragic and accidental happened to him

00:32:05.200 but nobody saw anything no one has a photo no one has a video that to me is shocking and and

00:32:12.180 confusing. And we don't know. We know something happened to Nolan Wells. We just don't know when

00:32:19.020 we don't know when, when did he drown or if he drowned or when did he die? We, we, we know he

00:32:24.720 was missing as of a Saturday evening, July 4th, and he wasn't found his body until Monday morning,

00:32:30.660 early Monday morning. So we, but the coroner should know, I mean, they can find basically

00:32:35.060 with an autopsy in general, time of death, date of death, how long a body's been, been dead,

00:32:40.960 how long it's been in the water. All of that's knowable. I've done countless interviews with

00:32:45.800 Dr. Michael Bodden and other forensic pathologists over the years just to know that.

00:32:50.040 The only evidence of an altercation, something that would suggest Nolan had a fight, etc.,

00:32:58.880 revolves around this one audio tape in which you can hear somebody saying, like, give me back my

00:33:05.640 phone. And the people who want to blame these other boys, the white boys in Mississippi have

00:33:11.960 pointed this out saying, this is Nolan. They're taking his phone. It's evidence that these kids

00:33:16.940 did something to him, but it turns out this isn't Nolan's voice. This is somebody else's voice.

00:33:23.140 And those kids have come forward to say, you've completely misrepresented this tape. I will play

00:33:28.240 the tape and then we can talk about it. It's video in which you can hear the voice. Sat 11.

00:33:35.640 okay you i can't hear anything there but there is a situation in which they're

00:33:53.920 they're arguing over a phone like give me back my effing phone um let me see if if i have the actual

00:33:59.980 quote uh okay i'm looking for it it's pretty close to i don't see the actual it was pretty

00:34:08.200 close to yeah give me back my effing phone give me back my it was it sounded like an altercation

00:34:12.540 between them and it was gone out into the media with the assumption that the person screaming

00:34:17.600 giving back my give me back my phone was nolan wells that is what the initial thing was and

00:34:23.380 then you have someone saying actually that was me you have traced in shepherd one of the friends

00:34:29.380 speaking with Rolling Stone, saying that was me, that he was just out of frame, hanging on the

00:34:36.760 water along the shore, that he is the one who was saying that. And he doesn't believe Wells

00:34:41.700 was in the footage. He says those were not Nolan's words. They were mine. I get that everybody wants

00:34:46.980 justice for Nolan. Everybody wants to know exactly what happened. And yet here's how Ben Crump

00:34:52.140 talked about that video satan they have this video of an argument that is going on and and

00:35:03.980 you know thank god all young people they have cell phones and anytime you hear people raising

00:35:11.000 their voice they start the video and so you hear on the video nolan saying give me my freaking phone 0.96

00:35:18.880 What are you freaking doing? And that becomes even more relevant when you think about the story that they are presenting that Nolan chose to stay behind. That's what they're saying.

00:35:38.700 So, I mean, at every turn, he's been misleading. Am I wrong?

00:35:43.660 You know, with this particular instance, it's so interesting in how he worded it, saying it's relevant, because it is relevant until it's proved otherwise. And once someone else came forward and said, that was me, that's when you stop looking into that route. We have no reason not to believe, Tristan Shepard, that it wasn't him on it.

00:36:03.240 So when the initial video came out and this other person didn't say it was him, of course it's worth looking into.

00:36:08.120 Of course it could be relevant.

00:36:09.220 But once someone else says, that's not him and that's not him, I'm guessing, that's not him, that was me, then I think we move on from that.

00:36:18.000 I think it's important not to get hung up on that, on things that could distract.

00:36:22.260 Megan, you know what gets me about all of this right now, about the photo of the four boys on the boat and that video that I think is getting lost?

00:36:30.580 clearly photos and videos were taken that day from anybody's phone from anybody's boat so the

00:36:39.340 fact that we haven't seen a ton of those is shocking to me you should be able to find nolan

00:36:45.560 in the background of a dozen selfies i mean i know that's what i do when i go out for fourth

00:36:51.760 of july is if it was you and me on an lbi because i'm from jersey like if it was you and me there on

00:36:57.380 4th of July, we, of course, would snap a couple of photos together. It's shocking that we haven't

00:37:02.420 seen more than these two, really. I mean, just a handful.

00:37:06.900 No, it's a very good point. And one of the things that remains a mystery here is the boy's story

00:37:13.320 is that Nolan stayed behind because he wanted to talk to a girl. And that's the reason he didn't.

00:37:18.700 Now, there were three boats, so it wasn't a big risk to stay behind when one was going back to

00:37:22.840 the mainland. But they said the reason he didn't get on their boat is that he wanted to talk to a

00:37:26.900 girl and we don't know who this girl is or whether the authorities have talked to her what do we know

00:37:33.680 about the girl we have a an alleged name we have a half story based on what people have been saying

00:37:41.580 online that it was possibly a girl named katie because someone purporting to be katie's mother

00:37:46.620 had gone on social media after um after nolan had gone missing and said yeah basically it was my

00:37:51.960 daughter and we've talked to nolan's family and from what we know they stopped they chit-chatted

00:37:57.500 it was very quick and then he was going back with his friends and she went on her merry way whether

00:38:03.780 or not the authorities have spoken to her whether or not that's even the right person i mean how many

00:38:08.480 girls nolan was such a handsome guy like how many girls on fourth of july in a pool of 200 could

00:38:17.120 this guy have spoken to that day or wanted to speak to? Probably a handful. But again,

00:38:22.180 all of these things can be true, and it doesn't change what actually happened. Like you said,

00:38:27.340 not a big risk for his three friends to say, we're going back now, and him say, I'm going to talk to

00:38:31.500 this girl and catch a ride later, and then talk to the girl, and then he was going back to his

00:38:36.180 friends. All of those things could be true, but that doesn't get us to the finish line of how did

00:38:40.140 this poor boy end up face down in the water after two days of being missing? There is a large gap

00:38:47.580 here that can't be explained. And the autopsy report should be able to answer some of that,

00:38:53.640 like you mentioned, whether or not there was water in the lungs. Something that Ben Crump did mention

00:38:57.860 during his press conference was that the stomach contents was not something his medical examiner

00:39:02.220 could determine. That is important for determining time of death as well. When was the last time this

00:39:06.500 person ate. So it was kind of half results. And we really won't get those answers until we get

00:39:12.120 the full autopsy. And then from there, there's so many different routes of investigation that

00:39:17.360 have to be done. But like you said many times, an investigation still needs to be done and getting

00:39:21.640 caught up in the extraneous details or the little routes that people are taking or things that

00:39:28.060 don't really involve Nolan directly is losing sight of the point. Yeah, it's worse than a

00:39:34.960 waste of time it is a corruption of people's open-mindedness and willingness to help by

00:39:40.780 shoving false information and theories down their throats and we we just like each one turns out to

00:39:46.520 be completely untrue here's the the other one is uh that this is ben crump again pushing that there

00:39:54.480 is this photo all right this is via the the daily mail the the photo was shared online by benjamin

00:40:00.660 Crump. And he shared it in an Instagram post suggesting that Nolan Wells may have made it

00:40:06.320 back to the mainland and attended a pool party before he died. The post stated social media

00:40:12.840 allegations claim a photo exists of Nolan at a land-based pool party in Jackson County before

00:40:19.580 1 a.m. on July 5th. So he tweets that out. But again, Trayston Shepard, Nolan's friend, told

00:40:25.860 Rolling Stone. He's familiar with this photo. It is not from July 4th at all. It happened a week

00:40:34.080 earlier. It was June 27th at 1158 PM. And he actually then shared the metadata, a separate

00:40:42.060 person actually provided Rolling Stone with the metadata from the pool party photo to prove that

00:40:47.700 it was taken on June 27th at 1158 PM. Not when, not, not the night that Nolan went missing,

00:40:53.960 Not your life. This is just, you know, I'm sorry, but if you're an honest broker, Ben Crump, then you update your Facebook post or your Instagram post and you say turned out to be nothing, you know, or you then update your post about the viral boat argument and say this friend, Tracen Shepard, is saying that it was Tracen, not Nolan in that.

00:41:15.420 But he does nothing. He does none of that. He has zero interest in getting to what's true.

00:41:20.980 He and Al Sharpton only want to get to what will further divide people and and pour more fuel on the fire.

00:41:29.920 Listen to Al Sharpton. This is him on Monday at the funeral. This is right on brand for this guy.

00:41:37.360 sought nine the story of what we have faced in america is a question that started in the first

00:41:46.520 book of the bible with the first siblings am i my brother's keeper

00:41:51.400 am i my brother's keeper

00:41:55.660 or will we out of some emotions some anger some jealousy some envy maybe some bigotry

00:42:07.580 decide rather than deal with building up the beauty that god put in us that we will harm our

00:42:15.020 brother and that we will harm our sister and through some malice try to hide it

00:42:22.580 But the Bible says that the victim's blood cried from the ground.

00:42:35.480 Wow.

00:42:37.440 I hear this morning Nolan's blood crying from the ground.

00:42:44.240 Am I my brother's keeper?

00:42:48.700 Or am I the keeper of some secret?

00:42:52.580 some information that you could give and won't stand up, but the blood's going to haunt you.

00:43:02.920 I mean, he wants a race war. Every act that man has taken over the past 70 years

00:43:10.660 supports that theory. He does not care what happens to these friends of Nolan Wells.

00:43:15.860 He's ready to convict them all.

00:43:19.380 What I focused on was when Nolan's name was spoken, and it was kind of toward the end

00:43:25.280 of that speech.

00:43:26.260 So you really could tell that for the speakers, for Al Sharpton, for Ben Crump, a lot of

00:43:31.020 this has become about a larger issue and not really about the issue at hand, which is what

00:43:36.280 happened to Nolan Wells.

00:43:37.400 And for me, as a journalist who investigates these kind of things, that's all my focus

00:43:43.100 is on.

00:43:43.720 And so I think it's important to keep coming back to, okay, what happened, what happened, what happened. But then with these things, this is the conversation that does get sparked. I mean, what's interesting, and I'm not necessarily playing devil's advocate, but it's so fascinating to me how we pick our stories because you've been doing this such a long time. I've been doing this such a long time.

00:44:04.880 There is such an enormous amount of news that comes at us every single day.

00:44:10.600 And these parents of Nolan's reached for whatever bit of help they could get.

00:44:16.460 And I don't know if they hadn't gone to Ben Crump if you and I would be talking about this.

00:44:20.820 So personal feelings about how Ben Crump deals with things and how Ben Crump operates as an attorney and as an orator and as an activist.

00:44:28.760 it did get an enormous amount of social media attention and media attention on it but the

00:44:37.820 problem that can come into play with that is losing sight of the real reason which is giving

00:44:45.220 these parents some peace and that's all i keep hearing from staying factual being factual and

00:44:50.660 giving just staying factual yeah absolutely which which they don't yeah they're not they're not

00:44:55.280 committed to. I really think you put yourselves in their hands and you're in the hands of a pariah.

00:45:01.800 Your son's memory actually will be bastardized and forgotten and diminished and demeaned. He

00:45:07.740 will barely be mentioned, barely be mentioned. It will be all about Al Sharpton's views on Cain

00:45:13.840 and Abel. I mean, this is unbelievable where he says, this is all about, am I my brother's keeper

00:45:18.020 or will we out of some emotion, some anger, jealousy, envy, maybe some bigotry decide rather

00:45:25.520 than deal with building up the beauty that God put in us, that we will harm our brother and

00:45:30.620 through some malice, try to hide it. I mean, this is like unbelievable, but that blood is going to

00:45:37.040 haunt you. He goes on to talk about Emmett Till happened here. Medgar Evers happened here. Based

00:45:43.240 on the history, we got to be able to dig deep. So he's going to hold all the history of the Deep

00:45:48.980 South and Mississippi against these boys who loved this black boy, who were great friends with this

00:45:55.800 black boy, who were best friends, some of them with him. They will get tarred because of the

00:46:00.680 history of the Deep South. That is criminal. It's disgusting. And I'm sorry, but his parents are

00:46:06.700 allowing it. We don't know what happened. It's so to to jump to judgment in any direction at this

00:46:12.960 stage in the game is socially, politically so dangerous. I mean, it's very much to the point

00:46:18.440 that you're trying to make right now to me, that it's, we don't know what happened. We don't know

00:46:24.660 if he was harmed by another person. We don't know if he slipped and fell. We don't know if he

00:46:29.580 drowned. We don't know if there should be blame placed on anyone at this point. And it is kind

00:46:35.980 of dangerous to go down that road. But the only way we can figure out if a charge should be filed

00:46:43.480 or a finger should be pointed is getting the investigation completed and the answer. So the

00:46:48.440 longer that the investigators take to give any information, the more this type of rhetoric is

00:46:54.980 going to continue to grow. Yes. Yeah. We don't know. And we certainly don't know if anybody had

00:47:01.720 something to do with his death who who it was i mean it presumably we'll find that out like you

00:47:07.820 point out there's going to be tons of photographic evidence and videotaped evidence to be you know

00:47:12.980 that is one of the mother's concerns and i understand that she says nolan was constantly

00:47:17.720 on his phone snapchat photographing videotaping and that they found none of that on his phone

00:47:24.200 suggesting to her that it had been wiped clean all of that will be knowable caitlin right with

00:47:29.220 the metadata from the phone, a forensic examination of the phone will show us whether stuff had been

00:47:34.920 wiped, stuff that may still be in the cloud and not yet deleted. Absolutely. You know, like if

00:47:40.020 that actually happened, that'll be part of the investigation for sure. And part of the grand

00:47:44.580 jury, because this will go to a grand jury, which is typical. It is standard procedure when there

00:47:49.540 is a suspicious, not natural death that they would take the evidence, take it to a grand jury in the

00:47:54.420 area and then decide if there is any sort of crime that possibly could have been committed and it

00:47:57.820 could rise to the level of going to filing official charges against someone, anyone. So

00:48:04.020 as part of that, I would hope that a forensic analysis of his phone would be looked into,

00:48:09.600 because, I mean, moms know. Moms have a gut instinct that, you know, you know what your

00:48:14.420 kid does. You know how often your kid is on the phone. You know how often he's on Snapchat and

00:48:17.480 you see nothing on there. Sure, you're curious. You're curious as to why your son didn't come

00:48:21.600 home, but his phone did. I don't like to go anywhere, really, without my phone. I can't

00:48:25.640 imagine a 19 year old saying, I'll stay, go ahead and take it back with me or forgetting,

00:48:29.800 but there's also any number of reasons. But I can imagine a mistake. Absolutely. I can imagine a

00:48:33.460 mistake and I can imagine. I can imagine that he's out there with his friends on the boat,

00:48:37.560 swimming, having fun, whatever they're doing. And you're not on the, one of the rare times where a

00:48:41.680 teenager's not on his phone and then his phone's on the boat. He decides to stay and he forgets

00:48:47.500 about it because he's, you know, that is the one time when you're frolicking in the ocean or the

00:48:51.200 water or what have you, that you're not really on your phone or thinking about your phone.

00:48:53.960 So I can see that happening. I do. I do wonder about the clothing, though. Let me play you, Ben Crump, today on the body and how it was found.

00:49:03.540 South 13. The fact that they told us we haven't heard from any of their local officials that Nolan was found face down, fully clothed.

00:49:16.140 Well, that's significant to us because the last time we saw him on the videos, he was without a shirt.

00:49:22.720 So at what point did he put on a shirt?

00:49:25.820 Somebody saw something.

00:49:27.680 My legal team and I, we stand for truth, no matter who it implicates or who it exonerates.

00:49:39.240 We stand for justice, no matter who it convicts or it acquits.

00:49:47.100 yes yeah and we stand for transparency

00:49:53.740 because we got eyes that can see and we don't need government officials

00:50:01.340 having to narrate it for you and me okay but we do because they're the ones who are conducting

00:50:08.980 the autopsy in chief so the bottom line is he says fully clothed and nancy grace's ep says the

00:50:16.720 united cajun navy reported today on nancy's show this is yesterday that nolan's body was found with

00:50:22.200 just the swim trunks no shirt or shoes it seems to me you tell me caitlin that i was actually in

00:50:27.540 that interview is doing a lot of work i was actually in that interview with nancy and heard

00:50:31.260 the way that was described that it was fully clothed and i asked the question of the executive

00:50:36.060 producer again i believe that they had the person from the cajun navy back on again the day after

00:50:41.080 to clarify that because I think Ben Crump got that information from Nancy Grace because he

00:50:47.020 just said that he hadn't spoken to investigators. So he's taking that point of fact from what he

00:50:51.340 heard from Nancy. Nancy had the same question that you and I just had. What does fully clothed

00:50:56.060 mean? So she asked for the clarification and we got it that fully clothed meant not in a state

00:51:00.940 of undress, that he was wearing the swimsuit. It's so important that we clarify these things.

00:51:06.100 Got it. Got to run because we're up against a hard break. Great job, Caitlin. Thank you so much.

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00:52:45.340 We cannot say it was racist, but we cannot say it was not racist.

00:52:52.440 So let's not judge either way until all the evidence is in.

00:52:58.000 Now, they just want money.

00:52:59.540 First of all, I don't get any money in any of what we do.

00:53:05.400 So I didn't come to make money. I came to give money.

00:53:10.000 OK, and we can't say it was racist.

00:53:12.420 What happened to or will we out of some emotion, some anger, some jealousy, some envy, maybe some bigotry decide rather than deal with building up the beauty that God put in us, that we will harm our brother and through some malice try to hide it.

00:53:28.700 But the Bible says that the victim's blood cried from the ground.

00:53:32.120 I hear this morning Nolan's blood crying from the ground.

00:53:34.680 Am I my brother's keeper or am I the keeper of some secret?

00:53:38.140 The blood's going to haunt you.

00:53:40.200 But we're not prejudging.

00:53:41.740 It may be racism, but it may not be.

00:53:44.560 Sure, you're super fair.

00:53:46.180 It's totally fair and balanced, reverend.

00:53:49.220 He and his buddy Ben Crump, who's like in a mad dash to become as bad as Al Sharpton.

00:53:55.060 It's going to be a race to the finish to see who can be the biggest race hustler.

00:53:59.960 Only time will tell. 1.00

00:54:01.520 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:54:02.920 want to get to the legal elements of the Nolan Wells story, plus updates on Sonny Hostin's son's

00:54:07.760 arrest and the Carmelo Anthony case. Big updates in that. Three of our favorites for today's

00:54:12.880 Kelly's Court. We've got today MK True Crime co-host Dave Ehrenberg, former prosecutor for

00:54:18.380 Palm Beach County. Find him on Substack, too. Also, In the Well co-host Matt Murphy, former

00:54:23.580 prosecutor. Find both of those shows on all podcast platforms and YouTube. Just go to mktruecrime.com.

00:54:29.600 With them today, defense attorney, host of the Arthur Aydala Power Hour. Arthur Aydala, long time, long time friend of the show and of yours truly. Guys, welcome back to you all. Wow, what a docket we have today.

00:54:43.960 Let me just tell you, Benjamin Crump and Al Sharpton, that is where you go if you want truth to die in the name of fostering more racist attitudes in America.

00:54:58.380 Benjamin Crump is the person who fueled nationwide outrage when he, quoting here from a great article written at GC Wire, E. Brian Rose, who reminded us of some of his worst hits.

00:55:12.460 in 2021 fueled nationwide outrage when he told the world 16-year-old Michaela Bryant was unarmed

00:55:19.200 in her yard when police arbitrarily shot her. Do you remember Michaela? Michaela Bryant? Remember

00:55:25.220 this girl? She was the one. Do we have a soundbite or a picture, you guys? Look, this is the girl

00:55:30.500 with the knife. Look at this. Remember this picture from just a few years ago when she is 0.93

00:55:35.820 charging at an officer with a long knife about to butcher him. That's why the police officer

00:55:42.260 opened fire against her. Not if he asked Ben Crump, who told us all she was unarmed when they

00:55:48.440 arbitrarily shot her. Did he publicly retract his claims after the body camera footage came out

00:55:53.280 showing that that cop was about to die at the hands of her knife? No, he didn't. He's the same

00:55:58.340 guy who represented the family of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, who created the hands up

00:56:04.500 don't shoot myth. Remember that claimed that Michael Brown was innocently, you know, shot down

00:56:12.140 by that officer there. And then when Eric Holder, who was running the DOJ under Barack Obama came

00:56:19.660 out with five black witnesses who said that Michael Brown had charged the officer. And that's

00:56:26.880 why they didn't think that they should bring charges against that officer for shooting him.

00:56:29.920 did did he come out then and retract his claims about it was hands up don't shoot no no he let 0.92

00:56:36.540 that lie stand we could be here all day if i went through the ben crump race lies not to mention al 0.87

00:56:42.000 sharptons whose are even worse and more infamous if that's even possible so you tell me i don't 0.66

00:56:48.820 start with you matt murphy on whether you think this is being handled judiciously by the sharpton

00:56:53.800 crump you're gonna get me in trouble megan you're gonna get me in trouble listen um it's what else

00:56:58.560 One of the things just listening to that as as a former prosecutor, I know, Dave, Dave was thinking the same thing.

00:57:05.660 And I could see Arthur licking his chops when when these people start offering rewards for convictions.

00:57:15.340 Al Sharpton threw up fifty thousand dollars for information leading to a conviction.

00:57:19.760 There's apparently like a thousand kids on that island during this.

00:57:23.960 And, you know, you've just incentivized a witness.

00:57:26.880 So let's say this thing goes in a completely different direction than I think it's going.

00:57:30.860 Let's say there is a criminal prosecution.

00:57:33.440 That kind of stuff is your worst nightmare as a prosecutor, because now you've just incentivized witnesses to be dishonest.

00:57:40.760 And it's that those guys involved.

00:57:43.200 It's like the opposite of a Midas touch.

00:57:45.660 And I mean, look, this is I don't want to make light of it.

00:57:48.220 But listening to Ben Crump talk, it reminds me of my cousin Vinny.

00:57:51.380 Remember the scene like identical.

00:57:53.060 It's you take one word and you throw so much emphasis into it that it's almost comedy.

00:57:58.240 If this wasn't so tragic and so awful, especially for this victim's family, it would be I mean, these guys are cartoon characters as they do this.

00:58:05.920 And it's incredibly divisive. It's totally toxic to the to the national discourse.

00:58:10.240 And it's it's a it's there. I completely understand your position that they're taking advantage of the bereaved family.

00:58:17.620 And it's awful. Megan, if I can, I've a witch hunt.

00:58:21.880 i've been in search of a witch and we don't know whether there's any witch involved whatsoever go

00:58:26.360 ahead arthur i've uh i've been in ben crump's i've been both you know as you know garpton is a new

00:58:32.580 york fixture and um i've got to spend a little time with with ben crump both of them are absolutely

00:58:39.060 totally different than what you just saw on the screen especially crump he's like very quiet

00:58:45.500 very very like awkwardly quiet awkwardly humble but i will tell you this megan and i'm being

00:58:52.220 sincere i have never seen a man hovered in diamonds like and i'm assuming they're real

00:58:59.420 diamonds i'm gonna check out if they're cz's i mean he had diamonds his watch had to be a quarter

00:59:04.740 of a million dollars uh his lapel he had a lapel pin i don't even remember what it was of but it

00:59:10.640 was all diamonds um his cufflinks were all diamonds like big you know i've been married

00:59:18.020 a couple of times i know a thing or two about diamonds like i'm like i'm like this is crazy

00:59:23.700 so when you know sharpen says we're not making any money here well he can't just so you know and

00:59:29.160 you know you remember this uh megan he's can't be making any money here al sharp because he still

00:59:34.960 owes the toana brawley guy like millions and millions of dollars because you falsely

00:59:39.460 accused that poor cop i don't know two decades maybe three decades ago i mean that's how we

00:59:44.820 found out who al sharpton was based on a total lie a total lie but that's how we know who his name

00:59:51.780 what his name is and there's a huge judgment uh pending against him so to say uh for al sharpton

00:59:58.720 to say you know i'm not in this for the money or ben crump saying i'm not in this for the money

01:00:02.220 that just it just defies reality right sure and that that ben crump you know the lies about that

01:00:09.280 McKay Bryant case were so awful. She was want to correct what I said. She was charging another

01:00:13.920 woman with that knife. And that's why the officer shot her in defense of others. And he goes out

01:00:18.800 there and says there was absolutely no reason for him to do it. And you see the video, it's like a

01:00:22.140 big butcher knife. It's like, what do you, what do you mean? What cop wouldn't shoot in order to

01:00:26.800 protect another? This was a big deal when it happened. And an honest broker would have come

01:00:30.380 back out and said, I'm sorry, got that one wrong. Of course that she was unleashing deadly force on 1.00

01:00:37.140 another, but that's not the business they're in. You know, Dave, what do you think should happen

01:00:42.220 in this case? In this case, you were recently the Palm Beach County attorney. How would you

01:00:47.020 be handling this if you had, you know, the family, forget the race hustlers who are representing

01:00:51.600 them, but the family saying, I have got real questions about what happened to my boy and

01:00:56.420 the friends saying, we have no idea. We left him behind at three o'clock or four 30 that day and

01:01:01.300 he was fine. Megan, I don't think you can look at this in a vacuum. It's just reality that we're

01:01:07.340 dealing in Mississippi where they have a history of racial discord and discrimination. And so when

01:01:13.120 we're critiquing Ben Crump, who, by the way, I've worked with in the past, the Corey Jones case that

01:01:18.420 came through my office. And actually, I like working with Ben and he and Al Sharpton. We may

01:01:24.240 have different views on some things, but they have lived a different life experience. So just to make

01:01:30.520 that point lord have just make that point because you know you have different life experience than

01:01:35.400 the three of us white guys on this panel don't bust out lived experience lived experience doesn't

01:01:40.460 make you lie about mckea bryant or michael brown or anybody else it doesn't make you see a bunch

01:01:46.580 of white people and say they're killers when there's zero evidence well in the brian case 0.65

01:01:51.000 ben crump spoke before the video came out and then after the video came out you're correct

01:01:55.360 He didn't retract his comments, but he did shift it towards systemic failures.

01:02:00.280 Why?

01:02:01.060 How about the Jacob Blake case in the Jacob Blake case?

01:02:04.860 Crump publicly described Blake as unarmed and peaceful.

01:02:08.440 And did he publicly correct the record when Jacob Blake himself told Michael Strahan on

01:02:15.140 GMA that he was armed with a knife?

01:02:17.740 And that's what found himself.

01:02:19.840 That's why he found himself in the crosshairs of those cops that he had resisted arrest.

01:02:23.260 He'd been tased twice.

01:02:24.360 Did Ben Crump come out and say, oh, you know what?

01:02:26.720 I was wrong.

01:02:27.740 He wasn't unarmed and peaceful.

01:02:29.420 By his own admission, he had a knife.

01:02:31.480 No, he didn't.

01:02:33.100 That has nothing to do with his lived experience, Dave.

01:02:35.900 David, you have the right to remain silent.

01:02:37.800 Anything you say can and will be held against you by Megyn Kelly.

01:02:41.040 So I would just tread very lightly, my friend.

01:02:44.100 I am treading lightly, but I'm saying this, that when we critique and we critique this

01:02:49.180 case in Mississippi. Just keep in mind that we're not just judging it like in a vacuum that Mississippi

01:02:55.020 has had a history of racial discord and discrimination. So when so when they come in that

01:02:59.780 I reject that entirely. That is using sins of the great great grandfathers who may I use that term

01:03:07.820 euphemistically. They may probably have no who the hell knows how long these families have been

01:03:11.600 Mississippi against the child. These boys didn't stumble upon some black kid. They are going to 0.97

01:03:16.980 teach him a lesson they were best friends with him dave this is ridiculous they loved him that

01:03:22.180 the evidence is universal right now that they were best friends with him that they had a lifelong

01:03:27.840 friendship with this kid that they did everything together this is not they found emmett till like 0.98

01:03:33.580 this is bullshit what's being done maybe it'll turn out that there are these raging racists who 0.96

01:03:37.960 turn on their friend right now there's zero evidence of that all the evidence is that they 0.99

01:03:42.140 care deeply for him megan there is zero evidence of foul play here when you look at the facts of

01:03:46.640 this, you see that that Nolan was loved by his friends and the evidence that somehow there was

01:03:54.560 violence or that because he was found with his clothing on as opposed to his swim trunks.

01:04:01.180 First off, there's a dispute on that, as you correctly showed in the last segment.

01:04:04.180 And also, if there was violence, there would be one of the many bystanders who would be a witness.

01:04:09.580 There would be some video. Every kid has a camera out. So we would know. But what Ben Crump and

01:04:15.800 Al Sharpener saying is that they had a separate independent medical examiner who they said was

01:04:20.760 undetermined. They couldn't determine it. Okay, that's not inconsistent with what we know now.

01:04:26.120 And also just my last point is that they're calling for more transparency. And in this case,

01:04:31.940 I do think because this is my point of the history of Mississippi, they should go out of the way to

01:04:36.860 be more transparent than normal. They have not been. Where's the toxicology report, right? Where

01:04:41.760 is the medical examiner report yet right where's the medical examiner report and right away when

01:04:46.900 the cops came out and said there's no foul play here they did that well without any of these

01:04:50.700 reports in their hand i think they should have more transparency before they speak out i say look

01:04:55.820 i don't know the sheriff john ledbetter said wells's friends were cooperating that investigators

01:05:00.400 don't suspect foul play that's all right and i don't know in new york in new york they don't

01:05:05.900 release the medical examiner's report until the toxicology report is out and you know unless

01:05:11.180 there's a okay there's a bullet wound to the head okay it's a little different but when they're at a

01:05:15.860 point where they don't have an actual they're not certain of a cause of death and they want to get

01:05:20.020 the toxicology report out and any other uh any other scientific or laboratory tests needed that

01:05:27.340 that's when they uh that's when they release it when it's totally done and don't forget you know

01:05:32.340 they made a big deal about oh his throat wasn't there guess what none of his organs were there

01:05:36.580 when they perform an autopsy they take all the i mean it's not pretty we i i guess all of us have

01:05:44.020 seen it they just take all your organs out they weigh them they cut them they look at them they

01:05:47.760 put them in a literally in a hefty bag and if there isn't going to be a second autopsy sometimes

01:05:53.900 they just stuff it right back in the belly and then sew it up and then you go to the funeral

01:05:57.700 parlor and they deal with it so look what bench crump did in that news conference was he broke

01:06:05.020 down a very friendly medical examiner's report and just try to throw any little bit of doubt out

01:06:11.860 there almost like he's a criminal defense attorney and a summation well they're not sure about this

01:06:16.760 you can't be sure about that you can't determine this we don't have the throat and megan i did

01:06:22.100 talk to a former medical examiner and he did say it's not as easy to know someone drowned as you

01:06:28.740 may think and you look at like a lot of different aspects of it like if there's um seaweed in their

01:06:35.200 stomach and it looks like okay they swallowed all of this water so we don't know and some of that is

01:06:39.740 going to come back in the laboratory reports about whether he drowned it's the anniversary right now

01:06:44.680 of malcolm jamal warner the famous actor who just who just drowned in or drowned exactly a year ago

01:06:51.060 um you know in costa rica just swimming and he got caught in the riptides that you spoke about

01:06:56.160 in the beginning of the show which seems like it's the most obvious answer of what really happened

01:07:00.920 and you know what he didn't have it does yeah he didn't have a cell phone the one place that's one

01:07:05.700 question and with the poor mom why why didn't he have his phone why were there new pictures we don't

01:07:10.760 swim with our cell phones we still haven't reached that point where they're actually waterproof so a

01:07:14.960 kid who's swimming leaves his phone on the boat it's the easiest answer to to so many of these

01:07:20.180 things but but look going back to what Dave said I with this case I really I agree with Dave on that

01:07:25.920 I wish that they would be more transparent because it's going to come back as as a drowning.

01:07:32.200 I guarantee that's what they're going to come back.

01:07:33.760 And what Arthur was talking about, Arthur's right.

01:07:36.420 It's called an end block removal, Megan.

01:07:38.620 And what they're doing is it's called it's strap muscle dissection.

01:07:41.680 And they're looking for signs of strangulation.

01:07:44.020 But like Dave has seen a million times and Arthur's seen a million times.

01:07:47.640 When you actually observe an autopsy with strangulation, there's a tiny little bone that breaks called the hyoid bone.

01:07:53.680 There's a thing called petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes.

01:07:56.340 There are all of these external manifestations.

01:07:59.740 And it depends on the office, but sometimes they'll do that as a matter of course.

01:08:03.960 But that indicates to me that if they did an N-block removal, they didn't find anything obvious.

01:08:09.940 And I thought that I was expecting something way worse from this private pathologist today. 0.70

01:08:16.360 And I almost, you know, kudos to him saying it's inconclusive.

01:08:19.740 That sounds exactly right if they're still missing organs.

01:08:22.520 I expected, and I bet my fellow panelists here expected the same thing, that we were going to get Ben Crump up there saying they found clear evidence of foul play because a body washing up is going to have scrapes and it's going to have bumps and bruises that are post-mortem.

01:08:38.780 But all three of us have seen that a million times where a private pathologist will come in and make claims that turn out later to be untrue.

01:08:47.160 So I was pleasantly surprised by that, that they had so little to work with in that press conference.

01:08:52.520 today and just to be clear on that on the throat the front of the throat missing because when i

01:08:58.080 first saw that i was like oh my god what is that evidence of foul play are they suggesting somebody

01:09:01.960 strangled him and then and got rid of that part of the evidence on the body but no because if you

01:09:07.980 listen to the full ben crump soundbite he says the medical office the the original medical examiner

01:09:14.520 didn't give that to us and he's like we want to see that still suggesting that that is a body part

01:09:20.920 that the original coroner still has that wasn't delivered for this second independent autopsy

01:09:27.200 to to look at and and they want it. So but but again, the initial initial statement was that

01:09:34.220 there are no signs of foul play. So to your point, if they had seen in the front throat,

01:09:37.960 the hyoid hyoid bone broken, I don't think they'd be out there saying no signs of foul play. 0.99

01:09:45.180 That would just make the sheriff look like an idiot, which he doesn't want. So 0.99

01:09:48.840 So there's more to, you know, be investigated. I agree with what Caitlin said. We need photos. These are young kids. It's 4th of July. There's going to be more photographic and videotape evidence probably pouring into the police right now. And hopefully no one will be in some of those past 430 when that boat left.

01:10:06.940 They started having boat trouble around 3. At 4.30, they left. And that's not disputed because they called into, I think, the Coast Guard or somebody asking for help because they thought they were sinking as their boat took on water. And we know when they got back to the dock.

01:10:21.900 So right around then to, you know, later that night, the search began around 11.

01:10:27.320 We need everybody's cell phone, everybody who was there to turn in and see if there's

01:10:31.980 anything in the background.

01:10:32.600 It's a little bit of old school police work.

01:10:34.680 You know, I went to dinner last night with four former first graders in Texas of New

01:10:38.000 York, and they're saying, listen, the technology is fantastic, okay?

01:10:41.840 And it has definitely lowered crime, especially here in New York City, where there's a camera

01:10:45.780 everywhere.

01:10:46.400 I mean, you I mean, there is literally either an NYPD camera or a ring doorbell almost every part of the city.

01:10:53.000 But they said the old school police work going door to door is just it's still the best.

01:10:59.460 I mean, almost the best.

01:11:01.380 But in a case like this, I would like to think that the sheriff has some two, three, four officers on that island where these kids are partying every day since this happened until now.

01:11:13.200 And it's called canvassing just talking to all of them.

01:11:16.020 what have you heard what do you know where did you see where were you would you turn over your

01:11:20.700 phone and just do that old school like you know hand-to-hand combat because what one the video

01:11:28.460 you showed of the kid on the podcast said let me see it was four thousand three thousand kids on

01:11:33.400 the island or something along those lines so someone's got to see something at some point

01:11:38.580 and those kids go back to that island it's not just like it's a july 4th thing this is a beautiful

01:11:43.300 weekend coming up well i'm speaking in new york i don't know what's going on down there but you

01:11:47.160 know i'm sure weekend after weekend you're gonna have the repeat people going when you just have

01:11:51.780 cops saying hey can i talk to you for a second and doing that hundreds and hundreds of times

01:11:56.040 there's there's more information to be had and i'm happy to see them investigate i'm not happy

01:12:02.060 to have these race hustlers get ahead of their skis and casting aspersions on his friends or

01:12:06.780 anybody else for that matter without knowing anything all right let me keep going there's

01:12:11.300 news today in the Carmelo Anthony case. The Collin County DA, his name is Greg Willis,

01:12:16.560 is speaking out for the first time since Carmelo Anthony filed this motion for a new trial.

01:12:22.100 They filed it right away after the conviction. It was July 7th they filed.

01:12:25.700 As a reminder, last month, a jury rejected Carmelo's self-defense arguments. They found

01:12:29.380 him guilty of murdering 17-year-old Austin Metcalf after stabbing Austin in the chest

01:12:34.840 for no apparent reason at a track and field meet in April of last year down in Frisco, Texas.

01:12:40.700 Both both of the boys were 17 at the time of the stabbing. That same jury sentenced Carmelo to 35 years in prison. Then Carmelo got a brand new legal team right after the conviction. And one of the arguments the brand new legal team is making on appeal is that they want a new trial.

01:12:55.680 And one of the arguments that they're that they're positing is that the prosecution, they say, breached an undocumented pretrial agreement between the prosecution and the defense in which both sides allegedly pledged not to introduce, quote, character evidence, character, reputation or extraneous conduct evidence concerning either.

01:13:20.680 Either. Austin Metcalf, the victim, his brother, Hunter, his twin brother, or the defendant, Carmelo Anthony, we're not going to do character evidence on any of these.

01:13:33.480 And the defense really wants us to know when they're filing that they had negative things they could have said about Austin, the dead 17 year old and his brother.

01:13:41.400 And they list some of it there like, oh, we held off because of this gentleman's agreement.

01:13:46.540 And we were told that the prosecution would hold off with respect to Carmelo.

01:13:50.360 The filing describes the agreement as, quote, off the record, which is a weird term because

01:13:54.640 we use that in journalism, but it's atypical in a legal proceeding.

01:13:58.300 I mean, like a secret off the record agreement between the prosecution and the defense, what

01:14:02.160 we're not going to introduce in a case involving a 17 year old potentially going to jail for

01:14:07.120 the rest of his life.

01:14:08.240 It's weird.

01:14:09.280 All of it's weird.

01:14:10.260 But now Carmelo's lawyers claim that the prosecution violated the agreement in the

01:14:14.780 course of the trial when they informed the court on the final day of testimony that the pact would

01:14:20.980 not apply to carmelo anthony if he took the stand in his own defense and uh they also said by the

01:14:27.780 way carmelo's attorneys they were the first to breach this this deal um if we had it because

01:14:34.160 they opened the door to character evidence when in in their opening statement they mentioned that

01:14:39.380 carmelo anthony played chess so if we secretly had an agreement not to offer any character

01:14:44.660 or extraneous evidence about, you know, who these kids are in their free time. Why'd you mention

01:14:49.600 that? Now, according to Carmelo Anthony's lawyers, Carmelo then only had 10 minutes to decide

01:14:55.500 whether or not to testify after learning that the prosecution might indeed bring up character or

01:14:59.860 reputation in a cross-examination of him. And he ultimately decided not to take the stand.

01:15:04.420 They're suggesting as a result of knowing the prosecution was going to introduce character

01:15:08.920 evidence. That decision was incredibly controversial since his entire defense was

01:15:14.480 self-defense. And you heard here and elsewhere, a lot of lawyers say you can't really effectively

01:15:19.380 make a self-defense claim without testifying, without having the defendant testify. So now

01:15:23.600 this is his defense team trying to justify their decision. So Carmelo's trial attorney was a guy

01:15:28.760 named Mike Howard. He's not part of the appeal. We introduced you to this guy. Remember he had

01:15:33.300 that little video like, oh, geez, you know, I'm just a sweet guy. I'm like this nice guy who gets

01:15:38.400 along with opposing counsel. In fact, we have that. I'm going to play part of it. Not all of

01:15:41.620 it. So 20 watch here. So what kind of lawyer do you want? Do you want an aggressive junkyard dog

01:15:49.500 who's going to fight for you hard? Or do you want somebody who has a reputation as easy to get along

01:15:56.200 with? The answer might surprise you. While, of course, it's important to have somebody who

01:16:01.580 fights for your rights. And he goes on to say, I'm the second kind. So I'm like the nice guy.

01:16:05.780 I want to keep going. So that's Mike Howard. Now he's not part of the appeal, but he was the trial

01:16:11.400 lawyer. And he wrote in an affidavit that his client's decision not to testify was, quote,

01:16:15.140 a 180 degree change in the defense strategy. And it was a direct consequence of the breach

01:16:21.020 of this gentleman's agreement. So now the DA is speaking out and disputing what's in that filing,

01:16:28.160 as I just outlined to you, speaking to CBS, to CBS Texas's J.D. Miles, who obtained the trial's

01:16:37.600 transcripts. Watch here. It's clear that many of these claims don't match what actually happened

01:16:44.660 in court. Collin County D.A. Greg Willis says the trial transcripts obtained by CBS News Texas

01:16:49.980 refute those claims when the judge and attorneys met behind closed doors during the trial

01:16:55.140 to discuss whether Anthony would take the stand.

01:16:58.100 During a discussion about the agreement, Howard says,

01:17:00.780 I agreed that that deal, for lack of a better term, has held.

01:17:04.540 I believe both parties have abided by it.

01:17:06.940 The agreement became a problem for defense attorneys

01:17:09.220 because it would limit what they could ask Anthony without violating it.

01:17:12.860 And because Judge Roach was not bound by it, telling both sides,

01:17:16.680 I am not here to enforce agreements between parties in a criminal case.

01:17:20.380 If asked to make a ruling, it will be based on the rules of evidence.

01:17:24.280 So, by the way, you heard him there saying the agreement became a problem for the defense attorneys because it would limit what they could ask Anthony, what they defense attorneys could ask Anthony if he were to take the stand.

01:17:34.600 So the defense could not introduce you're never been in trouble before, have you, son?

01:17:39.180 They couldn't do that.

01:17:40.020 And they, according to that report, they were the ones who were upset about that deal.

01:17:45.220 CBS Texas also reports that the transcripts refute Carmelo's claim that he only had 10 minutes to decide whether or not to testify.

01:17:54.120 Howard's new affidavit says he was 99% sure before the trial that Anthony would testify.

01:17:59.840 He blames part of the reason he didn't on being rushed during the closed-door hearing

01:18:03.680 and the judge declining to extend our time beyond 10 minutes.

01:18:07.620 But the trial transcript shows that behind closed doors,

01:18:10.560 the judge gave Anthony a lengthy explanation of his rights

01:18:13.360 and that the defense had more than a half hour beyond that to consider their next move,

01:18:18.240 even allowing Anthony to consult with his parents before telling the judge,

01:18:21.620 I don't want to testify.

01:18:23.500 Did you think you had ample time to talk to your lawyers about that and got feedback from them, feedback from your family?

01:18:29.460 You have had enough time to make that decision.

01:18:31.800 Anthony replied, yes, sir, we did.

01:18:34.060 What was your reaction to seeing this affidavit?

01:18:36.240 I was surprised.

01:18:37.660 I was disappointed and, frankly, a little confused.

01:18:40.560 I mean, I was there for every minute of the trial, and Bill Worski and our prosecution team, they conducted this case so fairly and cleanly and professionally.

01:18:48.180 We asked Carmelo's new legal team, as well as his trial attorney, for comment on what the DA said there.

01:18:54.960 We have not yet heard back. We'll update if we do.

01:18:58.000 The DA expressed confidence that Carmelo's conviction would be upheld.

01:19:01.140 CBS Texas reports a hearing on the motion for a new trial could be held as early as next month.

01:19:06.140 Still with me, attorneys Arthur Idala, Dave Ehrenberg, and Matt Murphy.

01:19:09.760 This is a juicy one. I'm dying to talk to you about this.

01:19:12.980 I mean, Matt, what, 25 years as a prosecutor?

01:19:16.220 Have you ever heard of an agreement like this?

01:19:17.980 And the DA seems to be admitting that there was one.

01:19:22.660 He wasn't like there was no deal.

01:19:24.700 He was like, it was implicit that there was a deal, but you know what?

01:19:28.700 All bets are off when the defendant takes the stand.

01:19:30.900 So what do you make of it?

01:19:32.320 Well, when you go into a trial, especially a homicide trial like that, Megan, there's

01:19:35.260 all kinds of behind the scenes discussions between the two parties, between the prosecutor

01:19:40.880 and the defense.

01:19:41.920 And you get, I don't know, 90% of things sort of worked out between you if you're getting

01:19:46.840 along with opposing counsel. So having a conversation about what's coming in, what's

01:19:51.320 not coming in isn't unusual. The decision to to take the stand and expose yourself to impeachment

01:19:58.280 is that's like first day of law school kind of stuff. And I this is a head scratcher to me. I

01:20:04.640 I don't see this going anywhere. Maybe maybe Arthur or Dave disagree. But Dave is shaking

01:20:11.540 his head as you're talking i don't know why tell us all day i agree with matt a handshake deal

01:20:16.580 that that's what this is about like a gentleman's agreement uh and that that doesn't really hold

01:20:22.680 water in court the court's not going to accept that that's an appellate court's not not going

01:20:27.060 to accept that and plus when they say well that meant we were rushed we only were given 10 minutes

01:20:32.100 to decide whether we should take the stand whether carmelo should take the stand that's not true the

01:20:37.920 The defense actually had more than 30 minutes.

01:20:40.400 They had he had time to consult with his parents.

01:20:43.100 The judge gave the defendant a thorough step by step explanation of what not taking the stand or taking the stand would mean about his constitutional rights.

01:20:51.860 So the defendant owns the final decision on taking the stand.

01:20:55.380 They can't lay this on the prosecutor, especially when there was no agreement in front of the judge.

01:20:59.880 Maybe some handshake behind the scenes.

01:21:01.780 Not good enough.

01:21:03.300 Why? Why, Arthur?

01:21:04.540 I can see I'll play devil's advocate here.

01:21:06.580 if I'm representing Carmelo Anthony, yes, I go in, I say, we had an agreement not to introduce

01:21:11.160 character evidence. That's why when I had the decedent's brother on the stand, I didn't ask

01:21:16.680 about their alleging that these one or both of them was guilty of posting racist graffiti at

01:21:22.020 some point. So I lived up to my end of the bargain. And now I'm going to put my client on the stand

01:21:26.880 to make the self-defense case. And the prosecution reveals to me, oh, the agreement only applied

01:21:32.200 basically to your witnesses, not to mine. I mean, right, vice versa. And I'm definitely going to go

01:21:37.860 after your kid on character evidence. So get ready. And so my client's rights were compromised

01:21:45.020 in reliance on the prosecution's agreement, which, by the way, as I point out, the DA doesn't seem to

01:21:49.960 be denying that they had this agreement behind the scenes. But as you well know, when it comes

01:21:55.820 to an appeal, all that matters is what's on the record. I mean, we do use the term off the record

01:22:01.160 because it's not on the record there right there's the pornographer in there and it's on the record

01:22:05.900 it's on paper and it's there so if it's some off the record thing an appellate court you know i

01:22:11.640 mean clients come to us after a conviction um all the time and say well this happened and that

01:22:17.320 happened and i go look if it's not on the paper we can't bring it up at an appeal there are other

01:22:22.580 motions you can bring it up but the reason why this is so foreign to me megan is in the state

01:22:27.820 of new york before the trial starts we do what's called a sandoval ruling which is if the client

01:22:34.300 testifies this is what the process these are the bad things the prosecutor could say and quite

01:22:39.840 frankly one of the two reasons why the harvey weinstein original conviction in new york was

01:22:44.580 reversed the appellate judge said to the prosecutor when i'm arguing the case no human being in their

01:22:51.200 right mind would testify based on this trial judge's Sandoval ruling, which means if the

01:22:58.180 defendant testified, every bad act this guy ever committed in terms of having a fistfight with his

01:23:04.780 brother when they were teenagers was going to be allowed to come in. It was just over the top,

01:23:09.000 but that was all on the record. So we were able to go into the appellate court and argue it.

01:23:13.240 This behind the scenes gentleman's agreement, they just don't exist in New York. So I don't

01:23:18.360 know what goes on in texas but that's not how it works here okay so no one here feels good about

01:23:24.780 carmelo anthony's chances on appeal at least not as he's arguing his case right now correct yes

01:23:32.460 look like i was in palau megan when this whole thing went down i was on a dive trip so i missed

01:23:37.020 all the drama and then and then mark mark on our trip did you hear that dave did you hear that he

01:23:43.040 You know who goes to Plow is Survivor.

01:23:47.620 That's a Survivor show or Money Launders.

01:23:50.240 I can't wait to go back.

01:23:51.220 What do these pensions look like for these prosecutors after 25 years?

01:23:54.600 Not working on a dive trip.

01:23:55.600 There's a whole other side to Matt Murphy.

01:23:58.060 He's the first person ever on this show to use the term bitching in an actual segment.

01:24:03.820 It happened. 1.00

01:24:04.920 It's when I knew I liked it.

01:24:05.900 I've got far worse in my head that I filter out.

01:24:08.240 But but look, this is we have all the three of us have done this case over and over and over again that the kid who stabs another kid at a party tragically is a part of American life.

01:24:21.420 It happens. There's like all of our blood vessels go out on our left side.

01:24:26.100 That's why people used to think the heart was on the left. And it's most people are right handed.

01:24:29.260 You see this over and over and over again, especially once we all saw the video.

01:24:32.920 So I don't want to speak for anybody else, but this is so run-of-the-mill average.

01:24:38.560 Like, this is horrible.

01:24:39.240 You don't get to use a deadly weapon for a shove or even a punch.

01:24:42.860 Like, this is so basic.

01:24:44.480 And I got off the boat, and the world got even crazier.

01:24:47.340 I had no internet, and it was like, how could things get weirder?

01:24:50.400 And they got weirder.

01:24:51.780 So I just—

01:24:52.780 There's something Matt Garagos has no partner on In the Well,

01:24:55.580 because Matt Murphy has decided it was much better in Palau, not knowing anything.

01:25:00.320 I'm going back.

01:25:01.140 Not being connected.

01:25:01.820 If I have to listen to Al Sharpen one more time today, Megan, I'm getting right back on that boat.

01:25:05.900 So take me with you. All right. Stand by. We're going to take a break, but we'll be right back

01:25:10.680 with these guys. And we have an update on the sunny Austin sun case. Stand by.

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01:28:33.940 News only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111 and on the Sirius XM app.

01:28:43.860 Back with me now, two former prosecutors turned defense attorneys and hosts on our MK True Crime

01:28:49.520 channel, Dave Ehrenberg and Matt Murphy had to say goodbye to Arthur, who's got other stuff to do.

01:28:54.560 Guys, how does that grab you, Matt, when you hear me describe you as a defense attorney now?

01:28:59.940 Odd. Odd. Although I just did have a big win on a police officer case, which has sort of shades of a lot of these other cases. It was a guy who shot a gang member who had turned out later was a BB gun and BLM got involved. And it was three and a half years of horror show for this poor guy. And we just won that. So sometimes being a defense lawyer can be very rewarding. So no regrets.

01:29:26.540 How are you, Dave? How are you feeling? The first time I was in court just late last year about after I became a defense lawyer, the court turned to me and said, OK, anything more from the defense?

01:29:37.960 And I stared at him because I could we stared at each other for like like five, 10 seconds like, oh, oh, that's me.

01:29:44.460 So, yeah, it's still hard to get used to. As you can see, for most of my comments, not the first segment, but most of the time I'm on your show, I still take the prosecutor's point of view.

01:29:54.680 Well, you're taking the point of view of truth, Dave. That's the, that's the thing you're calling

01:29:58.560 it as you see it. And most of the time they're getting it right. And Megan, I cannot tell you

01:30:01.440 how many times I still will say when the court goes to me, I'll say Matt Murphy for the people.

01:30:06.760 I just can't get it out of my, out of my brain. The defense people, the people charged. That's

01:30:13.540 who I'm here for. Those people. Okay. Yeah. So here's what we know now in the case against,

01:30:19.500 I don't know his last name. I don't know if Sonny Hostin's son is named Gabriel Hostin. I just know

01:30:25.720 his name is Gabriel, and he's 24 years old, and he's now been charged. He's been given a citation,

01:30:31.720 I guess we shouldn't say charged necessarily, for trespassing in this railway where he was

01:30:40.240 allegedly jogging or running, but wasn't allowed to be there. And there are no trespassing signs,

01:30:46.580 which are pretty visible all over the place reportedly. Now, the Westchester County DA's

01:30:53.080 office, they say the next court appearance is confirmed for July 31st in New Rochelle City

01:31:00.520 Court. So he does have to show up there and answer to this citation. But it was sort of an interesting

01:31:06.620 conversation that we had with, let's see, hold on, I want to make sure that I know who I'm talking

01:31:15.060 about with the New Rochelle PD. Okay. The New Rochelle PD tells us the following that jogging

01:31:20.820 near the train tracks in that area of New Rochelle is not common because there are,

01:31:26.440 there have been questions about like, was he jogging? Why were they so determined to give

01:31:30.480 him a citation? What was really going on here? They say jogging in that area is not at all common

01:31:35.520 that there, um, that wooded areas and an Amtrak track are nearby, but this is not a typical route

01:31:43.560 for pedestrians or joggers. The tracks run close to some areas, but most of that stretch is fenced

01:31:49.140 off. He said it's not a place that the average person would end up unless they deliberately

01:31:54.340 climbed onto the tracks. He said he does not know why this individual was in this location,

01:31:59.740 noting the area is clearly marked and difficult to access as well. Says it's uncommon for people

01:32:06.280 to end up on the tracks. When it happens, it's more often homeless individuals. He said the

01:32:11.380 entrance ramps in the area are not near residential blocks and that there are not really sidewalks

01:32:18.360 along these ramps describing the area as not a typical jogging route though nearby side streets

01:32:22.820 are used for jogging okay so we don't we don't really know what what this 24 year old man was

01:32:29.360 doing there uh he claimed jogging but the police were very determined first they handcuffed him

01:32:34.940 then they removed those then Sonny Hostin arrives and says this is a Harvard grad Harvard grad

01:32:39.520 Harvard grad, Harvard grad. By the way, I had a big interview today. Everyone's talking about it.

01:32:44.860 Wink, wink. I'm on The View, who had hosted J.D. Vance earlier that day.

01:32:49.840 Did I mention Harvard? And also now a Yale researcher. Yale researcher. Yale. Yale.

01:32:55.700 Never been in any trouble, okay? And then asked if they could not cite him, but they said we're

01:33:01.100 going to have to. And so you guys tell me whether they should go through with this citation exercise,

01:33:06.520 which reportedly carries a $500 fine. 0.81

01:33:11.980 And she's a multimillionaire,

01:33:14.240 notwithstanding her aggrieved nature

01:33:16.600 about this terrible country,

01:33:18.400 which has been so bad to her,

01:33:20.040 where she could buy and sell your whole family, Dave Ehrenberg.

01:33:22.280 No, I don't know what your financial situation is.

01:33:24.560 Hey, I'm a Harvard man too.

01:33:26.080 You know, you can always tell a Harvard man,

01:33:27.780 but you can never tell him much.

01:33:29.740 And so-

01:33:30.980 Literally, I didn't know that.

01:33:32.980 You'd never mentioned that.

01:33:34.060 All your appearances on this show.

01:33:35.340 that's not how you operate like there are some people who mention it every turn cambridge when

01:33:40.600 i was in cambridge and there are others like you who don't do that well thank you man yes i uh i

01:33:46.620 was fortunate i went to public schools and then went to harvard and uh didn't have a mom who could

01:33:50.660 get me out of any crimes now in this case the police seem to handle it well i mean they they

01:33:55.760 downgraded it to that citation where it wouldn't be a criminal charge but it is a non-criminal

01:34:02.260 citation where you can get a fine because he was cooperative. He has had no priors, no prior record.

01:34:08.300 So I think that the police handled it normally. I think Sonny Hostin, I think in retrospect,

01:34:14.360 wishes she did not act like that because it was caught on those body cams. And no one wants

01:34:19.680 someone who is a celebrity to invoke privilege to get their kid out of a situation. It really

01:34:26.000 reeked of a Harvard grad, Matt Murphy, would never commit a crime. That's only for uneducated

01:34:34.220 losers like the guys who built these tracks. Obviously, my Harvard grad, Yale researcher 0.99

01:34:41.100 would never commit a trespass. That's what it reeked of. It was disgusting.

01:34:46.180 Yeah, look, I think that one of the challenges of a real prosecutor, the goal is to do justice.

01:34:52.240 And one of the challenges on this one, I think, is to make sure that nobody goes heavier on him or lighter on him because of who his mother is or who his father is or who anybody is.

01:35:02.840 Like, it's very important to treat him like he would treat anybody else that came across your desk.

01:35:08.840 And for something like this, I mean, for me, Dave, this one just kind of screams out like a diversion thing.

01:35:15.220 Like he takes a class, pays some money for the victim's restitution fund, you know, finishes a, you know, whatever the diversionary class would be and just gets it dismissed.

01:35:24.280 And that's that's the way I would see a case like this being handled just on a regular, everyday thing, Megan.

01:35:31.700 And and also full disclosure, I knew Sonny before she became famous from after her days as a federal prosecutor.

01:35:38.960 And I disagree with a lot of what she says politically.

01:35:41.940 she's always been very nice to me. And I think Dave's right. I bet she reps some of that. And

01:35:48.640 she's trying to help her kid, you know, and I'm not making any excuses.

01:35:55.180 He's not exactly a kid. He's 24 years old. But OK, sure. No, I said before, look, if my son or

01:36:02.400 daughter called me and they were in handcuffs, I would show up. I would help them. But I would not

01:36:07.240 play the elite education card, nor would I play the I'm on camera or in my case, unlike hers, 1.00

01:36:15.640 I defend cops all the time and I'm not some knee jerk, you know, all cops are bastards 1.00

01:36:21.380 like her show is. Um, so, but I've, I would never play that. I don't know. Like you tell me, 0.99

01:36:28.300 you guys are both former prosecutors. You get pulled over for, for speeding. Do you drop

01:36:32.420 Former prosecutor, former federal prosecutor in your case.

01:36:35.100 I just I wouldn't do it.

01:36:37.380 You can't do it.

01:36:38.400 Yeah, especially with body cameras everywhere.

01:36:41.260 You risk blowing something up.

01:36:43.620 Like, for example, had it not been for the body cam, no one would know about this, or at least it would not be as big of an issue.

01:36:49.860 But because Sonny went in there and inject herself into this now becomes a bigger issue.

01:36:55.520 I agree with Matt.

01:36:56.320 This would be diverted normally.

01:36:58.200 I am not upset that police downgraded it to a non criminal offense.

01:37:01.300 first time offender. He was cooperative, but it is a issue that you and a lot of people are

01:37:07.260 talking about because of what the mother did. Yep. It's not. That's interesting because like

01:37:12.020 you guys actually could play that card and don't. I have other cards that I could play and I never

01:37:16.980 have. And I just wouldn't. And most of us wouldn't because we understand it's just not

01:37:20.360 appropriate. You just don't manipulate a police officer like that. You can defend yourself in

01:37:24.440 court on the merits or not, or just pay the fine, but you don't try to play those cards. And while

01:37:30.440 in your day job, you're ripping on everybody else's privilege all day. It's just completely

01:37:34.500 hypocritical. Okay, we'll see what happens at the end of the month. Last but not least,

01:37:39.660 Timothy Busfield is dealing with these charges against him, these criminal charges against him

01:37:45.240 relating to these two twin boys who used to star on the show that he directed called The Cleaning

01:37:52.140 Lady. These boys have alleged that he touched them inappropriately, and he's been charged with

01:37:57.000 four counts of criminal sexual contact of a minor for allegedly touching their private parts.

01:38:02.140 That's what they claim. Now, that sounded bad enough. But then we found out that the two

01:38:08.480 parents, both parents of the twins, appear to be a couple of grifters. And it did throw this case

01:38:16.100 into a whole new light. And not just like they had some trouble with the law here or there,

01:38:21.440 But like crimes of dishonesty, which you guys know, that stuff always comes in like that is the law treats those as special when it comes to cross examining a witness, because they do speak to a certain aspect of your character that's highly relevant in a judicial proceeding.

01:38:38.980 Now, the boys, the boys are innocent. The boys did not have any sort of dishonesty in their past. They're only children. But the parents, the father spent three years in prison for fraud, wire fraud conspiracy. The mother has a number of civil judgments against her related to gambling debts and writing bad checks.

01:38:57.680 Okay, so I do feel the need to say that for Timothy Busfield.

01:39:00.700 But right now, what's happened is the Daily Mail has gotten its hands on Timothy Busfield's appearance before the grand jury as it was deciding whether to charge him.

01:39:09.440 And I got to say, guys, very bizarre statement that the grand jury heard.

01:39:15.400 Here it is from the February 5th proceeding as obtained by the Daily Mail.

01:39:19.060 Stop 24. Listen to Timothy Busfield.

01:39:21.760 I didn't do this.

01:39:22.760 I have never, ever been inappropriate in any way, physically, sexually, in any way with a child.

01:39:31.100 A prepubescent little boy, I am not attracted to that.

01:39:35.140 I've never been attracted to that.

01:39:37.660 I'm only and always have ever been attracted to adult women or post-pubescent women throughout my entire life.

01:39:46.440 I've never, ever been inappropriate like that.

01:39:49.860 Yes, I was never, ever once alone with those boys.

01:39:59.780 Did you ever kiss either one of those boys?

01:40:01.920 I don't remember ever kissing either one of those boys.

01:40:04.700 He is also here and has also made a statement that the mother said that she knew it wasn't real but wanted revenge.

01:40:12.440 And she got it.

01:40:15.620 I'm done.

01:40:16.540 I've lost in TV shows, a movie they've digitally replaced me from, an SVU that I shot.

01:40:24.180 My agents have fired me.

01:40:26.520 Thank God I'm an age, but I'm done.

01:40:32.220 Dave, I don't remember ever kissing one of those boys.

01:40:37.320 He was doing well until that.

01:40:39.040 I thought he seemed sincere.

01:40:41.460 And then all of a sudden, I don't remember kissing the two boys.

01:40:43.720 Whoa, whoa.

01:40:44.880 If you did, you'd remember that.

01:40:46.540 And is that something that normally happens?

01:40:47.940 You kiss your co-workers who are like 11-year-olds on the set?

01:40:51.620 Oh, boy, not good for him.

01:40:54.200 Not good, Matt.

01:40:56.060 No, not good.

01:40:57.280 But I'll tell you, Megan, I think you hit the nail on the head.

01:41:00.420 You know, reviewing allegations.

01:41:02.880 I spent four years in the sexual assault unit, and I know Dave has seen maybe even more of these than I have. 0.98

01:41:07.820 You do see false accusations coming through the mouths of kids from crazy parents.

01:41:12.140 And you see it all the time, most commonly in custody disputes, where there's an allegation that a little kid will make, you know, from the mom saying, dad, you know, my dad touched me.

01:41:22.020 And you look and you look and it's a brutal custody dispute.

01:41:25.820 I hate the parent's background on this.

01:41:28.400 I think that that that makes me very uncomfortable.

01:41:31.600 And this case, those those statements that he just made are terrible.

01:41:36.920 But he did he did say the right thing. 1.00

01:41:39.200 I'm not attracted to p-pubescent little boys. 0.99

01:41:41.140 as weird as that is it's a very important factor to sit to consider honestly megan um i i think i

01:41:48.120 would dump this if i was the prosecutor um i don't i don't think they'll ever get any conviction on

01:41:52.900 this case once you get a look at at the parents resumes and on top of that as he pointed out in

01:41:59.940 that testimony there was allegedly a promise by the mother to get busfield that's right who she

01:42:05.420 reportedly blamed for her sons losing their role. They were replaced by a younger model.

01:42:10.740 It can happen even as to a child. It's very sad. I don't know. We'll see. We'll watch it play out.

01:42:16.540 But I believe him that his career is ruined. However, it's not just because of this allegation.

01:42:21.820 A bunch of others came out with these young women here, there and everywhere claiming he

01:42:27.080 had been inappropriate with them. So it's about much more than just these boys at this point in

01:42:31.340 terms of his PR problems. Guys, a great discussion. Wonderful to see you both. No more Palau. Back

01:42:38.160 to work. Matt Murphy, Dave, great to see you too. Thank you. Back from Cambridge, right where you

01:42:44.420 belong. Tomorrow we are back with Emily Jashinsky. Don't forget to check out our crime series tonight

01:42:50.360 on our MK Show feed. JonBenet Ramsey, part three. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:42:58.400 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 22, 2026

Investigating the Nolan Wells Story, and How Crump and Sharpton Have Racialized It, with Aronberg, Murphy, Aidala, and Caitlyn Becker ｜ Ep. 1365

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