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00:01:15.700Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:01:26.380Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Kelly's Court is back in session
00:01:32.260on the docket today with reporting that Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's marriage may be on the
00:01:36.780rocks. This is coming to us from multiple sources. They deny it, but wait until we tell you exactly
00:01:43.120who's reporting it. What would happen if the couple got into a child custody battle? There0.99
00:01:49.300are reports now that she's actually planning on staying in Montecito, and he wants to live over
00:01:55.160in the UK with the kids and have them go to UK school. But we already saw this happen with a
00:02:00.860famous actress who was in LA and got into a big custody battle with her European husband. And
00:02:08.660we'll tell you how that went and how it might be relevant here if these reports are true.
00:02:13.640Plus, a hearing to decide whether Tyler Robinson will stand trial in Charlie Kirk's murder begins
00:02:20.720this hour, but we are going to begin today on this show with Lindsay Clancy. At 10 a.m. this
00:02:27.260morning, the jury going back into the courtroom after an hour of additional deliberation,
00:02:33.700announcing they are deadlocked. The judge not issuing a formal Allen charge, as it's known,
00:02:41.300where you basically have to launch into a bunch of admonitions to the jury about the deliberations
00:02:47.900and how they should keep going and so on, but a more informal urging of them to go back in there
00:02:54.880and continue deliberating. Watch. Well, members of the jury, I've got your question. And the
00:03:01.720question is, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable to come to a unanimous decision.
00:03:08.480I brought you back out because I know that this was a long trial. All right. I know there were
00:03:15.680over 80 witnesses there were over 300 exhibits and but because of that I'm going to ask you
00:03:24.080to go back out keeping in mind all the instructions that I gave you to go out and to continue
00:03:31.260your deliberations at this time all right and so with that I'm going to ask you to go back out
00:03:37.380like I said keep in mind the instructions I gave you reviewing the evidence and I'd ask you to
00:03:43.540uh, resume your deliberations at this time. Okay. Thank you.
00:03:49.220Out they went. That was two hours ago. They're probably having lunch now. And, um, we just,
00:03:55.880we don't know what the split is. You know, there are 12 jurors, there are alternates as well,
00:03:59.840but what's the split? Is it six, six? Is it 10, two? Is it 11, one? No idea. Can the holdouts
00:04:07.320for whichever side, let's say there's a majority for murder one, can those who are in the minority
00:04:16.480and the holdouts be persuaded? Or is it a situation where arms crossed, heels dug in,
00:04:23.360nobody is budging, period? And if so, what does that mean? What does a mistrial, which is what
00:04:29.500the judge would have to declare, mean for Lindsey Clancy? So by my count now, they've been
00:04:36.280deliberating for over 20 hours, do we believe that giving them more time might make a difference?
00:04:44.100Joining me now, Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilboer. They are the hosts of Positively Legal,
00:04:49.040which comes out every Wednesday as part of our MK True Crime channel. Go ahead and subscribe to
00:04:53.840MK True Crime on your podcast app or on YouTube. You just type in MK True Crime on Apple, Spotify,
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00:06:05.220Mark, Jonna, welcome back. Do we, Jonna, think that this, you know, please get back in there
00:06:12.860or a possible Allen charge, which you can explain, could make the difference in making them reach a
00:06:20.000verdict when they haven't been able to thus far? You know, ordinarily, I would say it does make a
00:06:25.460difference. And, you know, I don't have the exact figures, but frequently when a jury does receive
00:06:31.360an Allen charge, which is basically what the judge gave a mini one, this rah, rah, get back in there
00:06:36.100and try a little harder and come out. We don't want to waste the last five weeks of your lives.
00:06:40.400Come to a verdict. Usually it works. But in this case, Megan, the thing that I find a bit unusual
00:06:46.440is there was so much evidence and they really the jury came back with only one question. They
00:06:53.760wanted to see a couple of pieces of evidence the knife in particular and the prescription bottles
00:06:59.440and then that was it it's been radio silence but for that so it's not like they're wrestling over
00:07:06.420something and we can read the tea leaves they've been quiet so i don't know i can't say in this
00:07:12.080case that going back and doing it for a little while longer is going to make a difference i
00:07:17.180predicted a hung jury in this case just because the issues are so weighty we're not dealing with
00:07:22.34012 lawyers. We're dealing with 12 lay people. And this is a tough one. Three dead kids. I'm not
00:07:28.100encouraged that they're going to come back with a verdict. Yeah, I'm not either. I mean, this is
00:07:33.720kind of an ideal case for a hung jury in a way, Mark, because it's the facts are not really in
00:07:40.160dispute. What's in dispute is, are we going to treat her like a criminal or like an insane0.70
00:07:45.940person? That's really it's like an interpretation. Yeah. When all is said and done, it's really an
00:07:50.920opinion. It's not exactly, I mean, it's not, it's supposed to be beyond a reasonable doubt. Did they
00:07:54.800prove that she knew right from wrong when she behaved this way and that she could conduct
00:07:59.620herself within the balance of the law? And was it premeditated and was it heinous and awful?
00:08:05.900So there are legal elements that they have to prove and the prosecution says it did, but
00:08:09.400at bottom isn't really, it's, it's like, what's your call? Did she, was she insane enough that
00:08:17.640we should put her in a mental institution or not insane enough such that we should put her in a1.00
00:08:22.960jail. OK, I have so many thoughts. OK, you just raise so many more issues. So let me try to0.96
00:08:27.220shotgun them out. First and foremost, this is only about what bars she'll be looking out at.0.66
00:08:32.740You know, we talk about prison and we talk about a mental institution. She'll be there for decades,1.00
00:08:37.160if not the rest of her life. Secondly, we hope we hope. Yeah, well, second, then it's not going
00:08:42.400to be not guilty. All right. So so secondly, and I mean, not guilty, purely not guilty. So it'll
00:08:46.880either be not guilty by reason or hung thank you for raising that because we we should point out
00:08:51.320that is an available option to the jurors but you get guilty yeah on first degree second degree or
00:08:56.700manslaughter but not guilty like you didn't do it goodbye have a great life or not criminally
00:09:03.200responsible not guilty we're letting her go is available the same way me winning the lottery
00:09:09.460while i get struck by lightning is available it's not going to happen okay so anything is possible
00:09:14.640All right. So first, we start off with jurors who are reflective of the thoughts of people in society. Right. They're random people. Look at the random people on social media split almost down the middle on this. She is a mother murderer. No, she deserves mercy. It's just so split.
00:09:34.300then you have opening arguments and most people if they don't decide right away they certainly
00:09:41.040lean towards a side and it's hard to get them off of that side so by the time they go back to the
00:09:45.900jury room they're etched in stone they're in their positions and they find it probably deplorable
00:09:52.680that they're being yelled at by their fellow jurors as to why they're not coming off their
00:09:56.800position i consider them to be remaining in that position they're going to stay entrenched
00:10:02.000and I'm going to announce something that I probably shouldn't, but I've actually reached
00:10:07.600out to the defense lawyer and I told him if they're going to retry this case, that I believe
00:10:11.600in the cause enough that I would join the team. Did he take your call, Mark? I sent him an email.
00:10:20.500Okay. Such a bleeding heart. No, I'll tell you this. She deserves at a minimum a closing argument
00:10:26.460that doesn't fizzle, that has organization.0.93
00:10:55.820And how if you go back to the jury room and you're thinking, well, maybe this and you get into all the thoughts that they might have, it all leads back to you must follow your oath, which is holding the state to the burden on.
00:11:10.060Did they prove that she was sane at the time on criminal responsibility and they did not prove it beyond a reasonable doubt?
00:11:16.820They must find her not guilty by, you know.
00:11:19.640No, it's a good it's a good point. The biggest boon the defense had in this case, John, was the fact that Massachusetts law is weird when it comes to the assertion of whether you're insane, whether whether you, you know, it's weird.
00:11:35.200I'll choose my own words. Thank you. Anyhow, it's it's strange because in every other jurisdiction, virtually, when you assert an insanity defense, the burden shifts to you as the defense lawyer.
00:11:49.640That you have to prove, you know, the prosecution has to prove the crime was committed and that
00:11:53.040you met the elements, you know, it was heinous and all the premeditated and all that.
00:11:56.400But then the defense has to prove, yes, but we have a defense and the defense is legal
00:12:08.580What is a win for Lindsey Clancy here?
00:12:12.520Because this lawyer, Kevin Reddington, has been saying, why would I want to mistrial?
00:12:18.000We don't want to go do this all over again. And I think he thought he was doing pretty well and that the prosecution really didn't have its act together for most of this trial.
00:12:26.140And he didn't want a mistrial. But most criminal defense attorneys consider a mistrial next best thing to a not guilty.
00:12:33.080So what do you what how does a mistrial play and what is a win for the defense?
00:12:37.980That's a really great question. I love this question. So in this case, though, I think a mistrial is more of a win for the defense because, as they often do, it would open the door for some additional negotiation, right?
00:12:54.740The prosecution doesn't want to put 85 witnesses on the witness stand again.
00:12:59.200The county doesn't want to pay for another three, four, five, six experts again.
00:13:03.360At the same time, you can't let three dead children just go on, you know, punished.
00:13:11.280So I think in that in that sense, they might try to strike some sort of deal.
00:13:17.020And the other interesting aspect is I ask myself because for some reason I missed this.
00:15:31.000You could have gotten from these witnesses what you want without having to crucify them.
00:15:37.700And that could absolutely backfire. I guarantee you some of these jurors did not dig his chili, that some of the things that he did, they probably found offensive and maybe not intellectually honest. And I think that there's a way that he could have been truer to the facts of the case without being a bully in some respects and or delivering a closing argument.
00:15:58.400Now, it doesn't take away from the passion that I liked from him, and I like that he didn't just, you know, lay down.
00:16:05.300There's a lot of things I like about Reddington.
00:16:08.460His closing arguments went on way too long, and he could have gotten from these witnesses what he wanted.
00:16:13.400But most importantly, the final words that came from his lips, when the judge asked him how much time does he need, he goes, 30 minutes, you know.
00:17:36.620And some interesting analysis I heard earlier today, I think it was on Court TV, was that
00:17:43.140that's a reason for him to want a verdict here because the prosecution wasn't that impressive
00:17:51.980in the course of this trial. They did a good closing, but they weren't that impressive.
00:17:56.900And they will now, I believe they will try her again if this is a hung jury because of the three
00:18:03.280dead children. This is not some small crime you can just kind of move past like, well, whatever.
00:18:09.040No, no, no, no, no, no. And so I think if it's a hung jury, they'll try her again. And this time, the prosecution will have learned from its mistakes. So I actually think the odds of an outright conviction will go up if there's a second trial.
00:18:25.260It'll go up probably because they will swap out the lead prosecutor who really, as they should, very, very sleepy during the course of the trial.
00:18:35.140But the closing argument did what closing arguments are supposed to do on the prosecution side of this.
00:18:40.680It showed everything together perfectly like you would expect from the defense.
00:18:46.360Like it was linear. It made sense. It was delivered with a very feminine energy,
00:18:53.920which I think is going to resonate with the majority women on that on that jury, like the
00:18:58.980closing, I think, was a was a nine out of 10 on the prosecution side. But they'll swap out.0.88
00:19:05.780They'll swap out the prosecutor. The reason why Reddington resonated so much is because when
00:19:10.460you're on the defense side, you get to do the cross-examination of the prosecution's witness.
00:19:15.860That's sexier. That's easier. That lets you be. I mean, Mark, you described it as he was kind of
00:19:21.260a bully and maybe that didn't resonate but that's exactly what sucks people in because you get to do
00:19:25.820the the magnanimous you know figurative punching in the face like he did with that inexperienced
00:19:32.600doctor who really is probably going to change careers at this point because she really got
00:19:37.060beat up badly on the stand by him and and that's the easier and dare i say i don't want to say it's
00:19:43.120fun none of this is fun we're talking about three dead kids but that allows a defense attorney and
00:19:47.900attorney to really show his or her chops. And that's what Reddington did.
00:19:51.460Can I just tell you a quick story on MK Confidential, which is our summer crime series.
00:19:56.920We were taking on big crimes and we're doing five part series on the Monday through Friday.
00:20:00.660You can catch the second installment of Scott Peterson tonight at nine on YouTube or podcast.
00:20:06.500We've been boning up on that case in great detail. And one of the details I saw
00:20:10.920in prepping for that series was our mutual friend, Mark Garagos, who defended Scott Peterson,
00:20:17.980was in court and the star witness, does everyone remember who the star witness of the Scott
00:20:25.580Peterson case? You got it. So Amber Fry got up there and testified against Scott Peterson,
00:20:30.940and it was absolutely freaking devastating. And the judge looked at Garagos and said,
00:20:36.340counsel and he said no questions and the judge said excuse me wow yes you got it immediately
00:20:43.880the judge said excuse me and he said i i'm just kidding i was just trying to lighten the mood
00:20:48.060that's great and that's a tactic right it's like he actually is trying to lighten the mood for all
00:20:56.240sorts of reasons there and while lacy's mother sharon rocha did not appreciate that at her
00:21:01.180daughter's you know the murder trial of her daughter um he he was smart to do it mark you
00:21:06.880know so john has got a point about the role of defense so let me make sure my point is clear
00:21:11.460because i've made witnesses not even metaphorically but literally cry so i i know how to do a blistering
00:21:18.060cross what i'm suggesting is i teach my law students you start off with first and foremost
00:21:23.620do i need to vigorously cross-examine this witness or do they help me or can they help me
00:21:30.180That's the first thing, because you get more flies with honey.
00:21:32.840You get from them what they're willing to give to you without having to badger them.
00:21:38.260Certain people, however, you move up the ladder of disdain and you go, you know, certain people deserve it.
00:38:05.980The husband, well, I don't think he had anything to do with this whatsoever,
00:38:09.760but he does seem like weak sauce to me.
00:38:11.620And I think a more robust partner would have said,
00:38:17.280you're not getting any alone time with the children at all for the foreseeable future,
00:38:23.660like period. And I do think it's kind of a reminder because we've tried to make men
00:38:29.280into these feckless weaklings in so many relationships and the bluer the state,
00:38:35.740the more of them you find, because I think a lot of conservative men are just hard nose on this.
00:38:40.180They're not convertible into that type of man. Not all, but I think most. I think there's a
00:38:46.740segment of the population that's convinced themselves they have to defer to the wife.
00:38:51.480And if you challenge the wife, there's something like non-feminist about it or somehow like you're
00:38:57.420out of your lane. And I think what we needed here was a strong male partner and father to say,
00:39:05.160I will protect these children and you will not be alone with them. Not until you are all better.
00:39:11.940Okay, so here are my thoughts. Yes, you're right. Hindsight's 20-20. That clearly should have happened, period. However, we're not in their shoes. There's a presumption that you want to get her access to the kids because she loves her kids.
00:39:30.820And every time he's seeing, you know, are you doing better?
00:46:11.280And the friend said to me, oh, well, Megan's already plotting out in her diary when she's going to be in the UK and which week she's going to need to be in California.
00:46:19.100and they're all going to spend the holidays in California.
00:46:21.800So they'll still really be Californian in some way.
00:46:24.460And I thought, okay, so what this is, as you say,
00:46:26.960as you correctly said, and you called it,
00:46:30.000is this is Harry and the kids are now basing themselves in the UK.
00:46:34.700And Meghan will be, you know, traveling internationally.
00:47:00.760But sources claim that privately, the relationship has deteriorated dramatically, with Meghan increasingly convinced there is nothing left to save.
00:47:08.660Harry may still be looking for a way back, but Meghan is not.
00:59:03.640And if they can add to that recipe, children from troubled families, broken families, divorce, special needs, brothers or sisters, what have you,
00:59:14.860so much the better because you have distracted parents who might not be paying that close
00:59:19.860attention. That's the pedophile's bet. I'm not saying that's a true fact, but that's the0.81
00:59:23.900pedophile's bet. They tend to target disadvantaged children. It's just disgusting on every level.
00:59:29.620So Jerry Sandusky was doing this with, I don't know what the total number was. At trial,
00:59:36.500there were between 10 and 12 children. He was ultimately convicted in the cases of 10 children
00:59:42.580accusing him of child sexual assault. And he's in prison right now and maintains his innocence.
00:59:50.380Now, this is so wrong. Well, what has happened this week, why are we talking about this all
00:59:55.220these years later, is one of the accusers has gone back on his story. So he's recanted.
01:00:03.700There were 10 victims in all who accused him officially at trial. And this person is preparing
01:00:09.640to recant his testimony, according to court documents obtained by The Athletic, which is
01:00:14.840an offshoot of The New York Times. Sandusky, now 82, is due to appear in court in Belafonte,
01:00:19.740Pennsylvania, September 8th for an evidentiary hearing after a judge granted his request to
01:00:25.540review evidence that the accuser, recognized as RR or victim 10 in court proceedings, has recanted
01:00:32.100or substantially disavowed his trial testimony. An assigned affidavit dated June 30th of last year,
01:00:38.560Victim Ted said he felt pushed to change his story.
01:00:42.100His testimony, quote, evolved, he said, after, quote, leading questions, intense investigative pressure and psychological manipulation.
01:00:49.660I was misled repeatedly during the process, particularly by the prosecutor, Joe McGettigan, who, by the way, is now dead.
01:00:57.960The alleged victim says I now regret my role in facilitating what I've come to view as a deeply flawed prosecution.
01:01:33.620I asked the courts and any fair-minded reader, quoting here, to consider that my testimony may have reflected not willful falsehood, but a tragic convergence of memory uncertainty, professional suggestion, prosecutorial coercion, and my own vulnerability.
01:01:50.120According to the filing from Sandusky's attorneys, Victim 10's estranged wife is also now weighing in, prepared to testify that Victim 10 initially denied being abused by Sandusky.
01:02:05.520The prosecutors, the lead guy, of course, is dead, as I just told you, but the prosecutors with the Pennsylvania AG's office said that woman's opinion 13 years after the defendant's trial, pondering what she thinks may or may not have really happened to victim 10 when he was 10 years old or any other Sandusky child victim, for that matter, is irrelevant and inadmissible.
01:02:24.360but it does look like this former alleged victim now says he wasn't.
01:02:32.140The AG's office released a statement on Friday saying the defense will be requesting a new trial during these proceedings
01:02:37.980based primarily on a highly suspect recantation that was offered by the defense.
01:02:45.300Jerry Sandusky is now weighing in himself, speaking from prison to ABC Philadelphia in an exclusive to them.
01:02:53.620And here's a bit of that conversation.
01:03:02.820I've been convicted by so many people with their own personal agendas, ambitions, and the opportunity to take advantage of a tremendous financial gain.
01:03:21.160I want to be home in the worst way, but I also want my grandkids to know the truth.
01:03:29.180In an exclusive interview by phone from state prison in Somerset County, Jerry Sandusky says money was the driving factor in the allegations against him and his conviction on 35 counts of sexual abuse of 10 victims.
01:03:42.000But it became such a huge motive for everybody, and they incentivized the accusers and led them.
01:03:50.220Without their leading, the accusers, in the beginning, they couldn't make allegations.
01:03:56.800New attorneys for the 82-year-old are expected to argue in Center County Court next month that Sandusky received ineffective counsel.
01:04:04.160But more importantly, prosecutors Joe McGettigan and Frank Fina coached the victims into making false allegations.
01:04:11.360One victim is expected to recant his accusations.
01:04:14.560Court filings by the defense say the victim's accusations were the result of investigative pressure and psychological manipulation.
01:04:23.040Okay, Mark, so where does this lead us?
01:04:26.520Because it's a dream for Sandusky that this one alleged victim is doing this, but the nine others aren't.
01:04:36.080So what he's alleging, you have to assume, OK, there may be some evidence to support it. The judge doesn't know. So I think it's proper and necessary to conduct that evidentiary hearing, same way they're doing in the Koberger case. You know, let's let's see whether there's any truth to this or not. And then the judge will make a factual finding as to whether there's any merit to this at all.
01:04:57.760But the bigger picture, I'm like thinking metaphorically, like, OK, you bring me soup at a restaurant and there's like one fly in it.
01:05:06.380I'll swat it away and then eat the soup. But if there's like 10 flies in it, I ain't going to eat any of that.
01:05:12.760In this case, it's not just one kid. So even if you discount this, you've got nine, at least others behind him who aren't recanting, who are saying this really did happen.
01:05:23.000And the prosecutors didn't manipulate me and nobody committed any type of fraud in inducing me to give statements.
01:05:28.980So I don't think it's going to disturb the underlying case, the underlying conviction.
01:05:34.040John, the problem for Sandusky is for every victim 10 out there, there's a victim one and his name we now know is Aaron Fisher.
01:05:46.000He sat down with Chris Cuomo when Chris Cuomo was at ABC and co-hosting 2020.
01:10:12.980who were involved in the criminal case against him.
01:10:15.260Um, but I've been following this case long enough to know that some people who I consider
01:10:22.340not nuts believe that Jerry Sandusky is innocent and that this was a railroad from the start.
01:10:31.880It got, it got started the snowball against Jerry Sandusky after a, a junior coach at Penn State.
01:10:42.260um, Mike McQueary was his name came forward later. He, it, it didn't like it, but it broke
01:10:50.040publicly after it happened, but it, he saw something in 2001 when he was going into the
01:10:56.420Penn state showers, he saw, forgive me, but it was, it was graphic and it was described and it
01:11:03.800sounded pretty clear testified, um, that there was a boy up against the wall, facing the wall.
01:11:10.880Jerry was directly behind him in a very close position, quote, I did not see any, forgive me, insertion, did not hear any protest, screaming or yelling, but described the sounds of what sounded like molestation, sex, you know, non-consensual, obviously, since this is a minor, a 10 or 12-year-old boy that was on the, you know, that was in front of him.
01:11:34.400So it's disgusting. It's it's horrifying. But McQuarrie came forward with that. And and the reason three officials at Penn State were ultimately criminally convicted on their own in this case is because they were all mandatory reporters and they didn't.0.75
01:11:53.380There are emails between the three of them going back and forth like, I'm not comfortable with the way we initially said we were going to handle the situation, which was to report that they had received this report from Mike McQuarrie to authorities.
01:12:08.660Instead, you know, this guy was part of the legendary Penn State football program under their most legendary coach ever, Joe Paterno.
01:12:16.480And, you know, maybe we need to give him the chance to explain and maybe like rehab for him, which is just completely contrary to law.
01:12:25.940And all three of them would wind up convicted and having to spend a couple of days in some cases or a month or two in prison.0.70
01:12:32.440And but that's what happened when this guy McQueary came forward in 2001 or two to the university, because to his credit, he did go forward to say, holy shit, I just saw this in the in the locker room.
01:12:44.560But later, his story changed a bit, like some of the details changed up or he got a little bit too animated in offering, you know, things he allegedly said he saw, but then would have to admit he didn't actually see.
01:13:00.700And this, Mark, led people to say, like, we've got to actually look a lot more carefully at this whole story.
01:13:08.560And a lot of and I'm not sure if it's all of but a lot of these victims in the criminal case did also file civil lawsuits against Penn State, which was very deep pocketed.
01:13:18.580They wound up paying some huge amount, $100 million out on this.
01:13:24.660And as we've often seen in these cases, the defense of the people who support Jerry Sandusky is it's a money grab.
01:13:33.800You know, like the one guy made the allegation, the alleged victim in the McQuarrie case, you know, the one was in the shower, did not testify against Sandusky and actually later came out and said, oh, nothing happened.
01:14:18.580That's that's what we do as defense lawyers. There are always arguments on the other side. And if there aren't ones that are readily available, we'll create them. So was there towel snapping? Yeah. After he sodomized them in the shower. So they're probably both occurred.
01:14:34.220to jana's point if this guy got uh the first accuser who's now recanting if he got over five
01:14:42.660million dollars okay for every action victim 10 oh victim 10 sorry so for every action there's a
01:14:47.940reaction give it back then you weren't victimized you want to come out right now under oath and
01:14:53.480swear that they manipulated you that you really were not a true victim give the money back what
01:15:00.760you buy with those things? Have a judgment against them. Get that money back. Mark, can I tell you?
01:15:07.160Well, what about the fact? But wait, can I ask you, Jennifer? What about the fact if I'm Sandusky's
01:15:12.300lawyer, I am going to blow up victim 10's allegations that he was, quote, coached during
01:15:20.360the pretrial meetings that he he says there was prosecutorial coercion, that the prosecutors
01:15:28.560wanted certain testimony and made sure that they got it.
01:15:33.620He claims that he was told that the trauma may have fragmented his memory
01:15:40.160and that he could, quote, safely affirm details that he did not fully recall.
01:15:46.040I mean, he and leading questions, intense investigative pressure,
01:15:53.120particularly by this now dead prosecutor.
01:15:55.740And so if you're Sandusky's attorney, you're going to get up there and say, what are the odds that this guy, McGettigan, only did that to victim 10?
01:16:24.160um you know go doing this to child after child about their alleged you know abuse again when
01:16:34.120everybody knows there is potential money on the table this is not you know a crime where
01:16:40.600there's not going to be a civil payout I mean there was a very deep pocket behind Sandusky
01:16:45.740I mean employing him for the majority of time he was doing this and a lot of them were brought
01:16:50.620onto Penn State property, which. OK, so first things first, victims one, two through nine
01:16:57.660are going to be fearful that if let's say let's play devil's advocate, let's say, you know what?
01:17:03.740Yep, it was. I was coerced, but I don't want to give back my chunk of the hundred million dollars.
01:17:09.720So I'm going to zip it and shut up and not say anything and not come forward. Number one. Number
01:17:14.540two, you got to remember when you're prosecuting a case, those victims and the district attorneys
01:17:20.980that are talking to them, there is no attorney-client privilege. Were there tape recordings
01:17:26.000of the conversations? If McGettigan is doing something untoward, there won't be. Usually,
01:17:32.700you're not going to have conversations like that unless they're recorded, unless there's a third
01:17:36.320party in the room. Why? Because if your victim recants, you want to be able to say, no, no, no,
01:17:41.440This is what was said. So you're going to want that protection. And there's no privilege there.
01:17:47.120Now that this guy's dead, he can't even tell you if he if he not that he would tell you where he buried any bodies, but he's not going to be able to stand up for himself.
01:17:56.100So who else was in the room when these kids came forward and had their conversations?
01:18:00.580Where are the private investigators that sat there and took these statements?
01:18:04.160I mean, they're going to be gettable, assuming they're not pushing up daisies themselves.
01:18:08.680So there is some investigation that can go on here by Sandusky's new lawyers.
01:18:14.720And that should probably happen before the hearing happens.
01:18:19.360Yeah, Megan, let me jump in on this because it would be unfair.
01:18:23.340It would be grossly unfair to open up the evidentiary hearing to the other nine victims unless and until first there's the kind of evidence that come out now for victim number 10.
01:18:37.180unless you have that kind of evidence, you don't then re-victimize them and put them through
01:18:42.240cross-examination, bring them to court again. They had the courage to come forward when they
01:18:47.620needed to. Back then, he was convicted. Lest you have them coming forward and saying affirmatively,
01:18:53.420I'm ready to testify about how the prosecutor made me do this and framed Sandusky like the
01:19:00.300Mona Lisa, then you leave them alone. Here is more from Sandusky from the prison interview with
01:19:08.700Philadelphia six ABC. And he's talking about these accusers being connected to his charity.
01:19:17.780This the second mile and what he thinks the motivation was here. Watch Sandusky's victims
01:19:24.860were all connected to his charity for troubled youth. The second mile. Each one of them
01:19:30.080had issues. Each one of them were involved in our program because of some issues.
01:19:41.380But even Sandusky's adopted son testified the former Penn State coach sexually abused him.
01:19:47.720He had financial problems. Less than right, he saw an opportunity.
01:19:53.520Today, the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office released a statement saying
01:19:57.000the defense will be requesting a new trial during these proceedings based primarily on a highly
01:20:02.760suspect recantation that was offered by the defense i've been made out to be a monster
01:20:08.060my whole life was centered around we had an open door for people welcome them into our lives
01:20:18.000tried to help her okay i find that so despicable that oh they were all troubled they were all
01:20:25.740troubled this is what they do that's why they target the troubled child because not only are
01:20:34.060their parents dealing with like the stress and the distraction of a divorce or a broken family
01:20:37.840or a kid who's on the spectrum or some sort of massive challenge um but then they get to turn
01:20:43.360around and say troubled kid i mean who are you gonna believe the troubled kid or me this storied
01:20:49.640football coach at Penn State. The trouble for him is that shit no longer works. The reason Penn0.99
01:20:56.140State had to pay out $100 million, Mark, is because they had some 35 plaintiffs suing them.
01:21:03.460The numbers are way bigger than the 10 who testified at that trial. And I don't know what
01:21:08.620this one victim's doing, alleged victim number 10. I have no idea what this person's doing or
01:21:13.820whether what he's saying was done to him by the prosecutor is true. But there's I just there's no
01:21:19.980universe in which I buy that scores of alleged victims all made it up. Yeah, me too. And so my
01:21:26.940question to this guy, number 10, is are you mistaken now like you were mistaken then? Which
01:21:33.380which one is more? Which one are we going to believe? I don't think it gets to the point
01:21:37.600where the judge credits what he has to say. You have a prosecutor who's passed away and he can't
01:21:42.340defend himself. I don't know that. So convenient, by the way, isn't it? Dead guys don't tell tales.
01:21:47.040He can't explain anything. So you could just shit all over him and say whatever you want.1.00
01:21:50.840So I don't know that this really goes anywhere. And ultimately, there's this concept in the law0.99
01:21:54.980called harmless error. So if there's nine others, and even if they knew this information at the
01:22:00.560time and they could allege that the prosecutor, you know, didn't do everything by the book,
01:22:05.500I think the appellate court would say that wouldn't have changed the outcome of this case.
01:22:10.480Megan, can I give you the Hollywood version of this story? Here's the holiday. This is if I were writing a fiction novel. Here's what it is. Victim 10 wants more money. So he connects with Sandusky's team like, hey, you got five point five million dollars before we got another five point five.
01:22:29.340If you'll come forward and say all that shit that you said 13 years ago wasn't true.0.99
01:22:34.440This is the Hollywood version, folks.0.99
01:31:14.340It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
01:31:15.560He's turning into this whole thing into a circus. It's unfair to anyone who gives a crap about this tragedy. And it's it's cruel. It's just not right.0.96
01:31:28.620It's I said during the hearing and I say again, this judge is giving Lance Ito vibes, John. Yeah. You know, like he's he's going to complain about the media, but he seems to be really enjoying his time on camera.
01:31:40.500You can't make a damn decision. Mark's exactly right. Usually these things are like an hour, if that, two minutes. And especially when you have multiple confessions, the defense is not arguing that their client didn't do it. Hello. They're not arguing that. And you've got DNA and you've got all this stuff.0.98
01:32:01.440Like, again, you can dispute the specifics.
01:32:14.420For purposes of probable cause, 95 percent of this is unnecessary.
01:32:19.920It's unheard of to have a mini trial as a preliminary hearing.
01:32:23.620And I think this judge is giving off the Judge Ito vibes and kind of going overboard, really,
01:32:29.340to the benefit of the defense is because the death penalty is on the table and the same reason that
01:32:35.220the defense is doing all this the same reason they put on this dog and pony show they are simply
01:32:40.400angling to get the death penalty off the table and if they are at any point successful i would
01:32:47.280expect that we would have some sort of plea and we could stop this charade because if there's ever
01:32:52.040been a case where a defendant is dead to effing rights, it's Tyler Robinson. Yes, I agree. And I
01:33:00.700like this judge at first. I liked him because I liked his demeanor. I liked his professionalism.
01:33:05.880I liked the way he treated both sides. He seemed fair. And now I don't like him because, you know,
01:33:12.520the road to hell with pays with good intentions. He wants he wants to do everything so nice, nice
01:33:18.240that he's allowing the defense to present everything and it's going on and on and on
01:33:23.380at great expense emotionally and financially to anyone, to everyone involved.
01:33:28.900Yeah. I mean, the poor citizens of Utah that have to pay for this farce.
01:33:33.220Can we see the judge one more time? I just want to take a look at him for one. I'm looking for
01:33:36.840one thing. Let me just see him. You pop it back up. You know who he looks like? Stephen Moore
01:33:41.880of Fox News, you know, the commentator on business and econ. He looks like Stephen Moore.
01:33:49.600You guys may not know who I mean. I'm going to get a split screen of those two people and put
01:33:53.080it on the board. He looks just like him. And I think he's actually also Stephen Moore,
01:33:57.840a Trump advisor now. OK, we'll continue to check back in there. But speaking of things that,
01:34:03.580you know, should have been a lot simpler than they're going to be. Brian Kohlberger actually
01:34:08.540got someplace with that handwritten request for an evidentiary hearing. And we're going to have
01:34:15.040one now. It's not going to happen until next June. So, but he's not only going to get a status
01:34:20.840conference one day at a jail, but an actual evidentiary hearing on his motion, two days at
01:34:26.300a jail. So yay for him. Two pieces of news around it. He's got a new private attorney from Idaho
01:34:31.820named Gregory Rauch, R-A-U-C-H, who's a private defense attorney assigned to represent him
01:34:37.360since he's now claiming that he was the victim of ineffective assistance of counsel from
01:34:42.600Ann Taylor, who definitely was a lot of things, but I don't think ineffective is on the list.0.89
01:34:48.100But that's just one of his bullshit claims to get a new trial, withdraw his guilty plea,0.95
01:34:53.260which is what he's asking to do. But now, more interestingly, this guy, Jason Goldman,0.97
01:34:57.180a New York-based attorney, is joining his team. And this guy has already gone on the record saying,
01:35:03.940our main priority right now is to scrutinize the constitutional issues surrounding Ryan's plea.
01:35:10.440But he said this, some of the circumstances surrounding that plea and what occurred in
01:35:15.840the critical days leading up to it deserve careful, independent judicial scrutiny.
01:35:20.100Some of those circumstances surrounding his plea are already part of the public record.
01:35:24.960Others are not. We will let the evidence in the filing speak in due course. Stay tuned.
01:35:30.400So they are planning on going in there and expanding on his claim of ineffective assistance of counsel, which is really what this all boils down to, where Brian argued his lawyer didn't tell him the truth about what life on death row was going to be like, the size of the cells.
01:36:10.980Let's blame the prosecutors and let's blame the judge because they allowed this guy who probably is some sort of evil genius to get away with pleading guilty without allocuting.
01:36:50.880You don't think it's going to happen. You don't disagree.
01:36:53.220He did ask him, are you pleading guilty because you are guilty?
01:36:56.320And he said, yes. But now one of Kohlberger's complaints is he was told your guilty plea doesn't have to be truthful.
01:37:04.960That's one of the ways in which he was allegedly. So I think the world of my positively legal co-host, which, you know, again, the show comes out on Wednesday.
01:37:14.120Watch it. John is not always right. And I'm always here to correct her when she gets it wrong.
01:37:20.340OK, so number one, this is going to go nowhere. Number two, let's be very hard for you to stay positively legal.
01:37:26.320Oh, we don't. It's tongue in cheek. Positive one. I'm positively legal.
01:37:32.380She curses a lot. OK, you're positively fed up with Mark. That's where I am. So let me explain.
01:37:39.460I disagree with John. Not every defendant has to admit what they did, maybe in her little small
01:37:44.540town where she practices. My jurisdiction, the judge, New York, the judge, some small town in
01:37:49.880New York. What the judge needs to do is merely have a factual basis to accept the plea, not that
01:37:55.320a person says i'm guilty i did it it doesn't have to be that way so i disagree with her also as you
01:38:00.920pointed out megan he did admit that he did this and um i don't think there's going to be any proof
01:38:07.100that from any of any credible proof other than from his own mouth that they forced him threatened
01:38:12.480him coerced him got him to admit his responsibility when he didn't um you know so jonah i disagree
01:38:19.540all right so hang on all right i want to keep going oh she's going to correct the record quickly
01:38:22.720because i want to get in that last case okay okay you want me all right good so we'll move on no um
01:38:28.680there's always some there's always more on that case uh i want to talk about dejan love who has
01:38:36.340been running around many states many states um i can't i can't keep track of them all alleging that
01:38:43.800he is a san francisco 49er um he set up this whole social media uh profile of himself in 49er gear
01:38:53.920and he's been going woman after woman saying he's a 49er and getting them to give him money you know
01:39:03.840he's going to invest it he's going to help them get an apartment he's going to help them get a
01:39:08.920nice car, but somehow they have to front the first payment by giving it to him. And he's 35 years
01:39:18.920old. He allegedly had an 18-year-old accomplice in this named Taylor Chan, who started doing this
01:39:25.520for him or helping him with this a few years ago when he would have been 13 or 14 when the scheme
01:39:31.320scheme began. Um, he was, here's some of the specifics here. Hold on. He pretended to be a
01:39:38.04049er and then developed romantic relationships with many of the victims actually got in romances
01:39:43.320with them, told him he wanted to settle down. He wanted to build wealth with them by investing
01:39:47.380together. Um, said he was a wide receiver. He publicly posted photos and videos of himself
01:39:52.280dressed in team gear, pretending to train along with posts allegedly stolen from real NFL players
01:39:57.340presented as his own. There were more than $1,100 in purchases from a custom football helmet company,
01:40:05.060plus purchases from businesses selling realistic fake cash and social media followers, likes and
01:40:09.880views. Oh, it's all a fraud, say the prosecutors. He had other identities that he sometimes used,
01:40:15.340including saying he was related to the Green Bay Packers quarterback, Jordan Love.
01:40:20.260And the victims, if they started asking too many questions or had no more money to invest,
01:40:26.360got blocked. He would then block their numbers. It's so crazy. One woman, victim AT, they dated
01:40:33.360for about a month. He told her that the young kid with him could invest her money in an expedited
01:40:39.040account that would double her money. And she'd get a $600 check every week or two. She gave him
01:40:43.56020 grand and then 20 grand in cash too. One was transferred into his account. One went cash
01:40:49.080and sent an associate of his five grand
01:40:52.120for a total of $45,000 toward the expedited account.
01:40:56.760But AT, the woman never received any of the $600 checks he promised.
01:41:02.180He showed her what he purported to be account statements