The Megyn Kelly Show - Michelle Obama Trashes Motherhood, and Lindsay Clancy Trial Closing Arguments Breakdown, with Jesse Kelly, Phil Holloway and Lauren Conlin ｜ Ep. 1388

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00:01:00.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.320 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:01:16.040 Hope you all had a great weekend. Last weekend of summer, sort of.

00:01:18.800 I mean, not officially, but sort of, right?

00:01:20.780 Because if you haven't already gone back to school with your kids,

00:01:23.600 it's happening a week from tomorrow after Labor Day. And this is it, the last hurrah of summer.

00:01:28.920 Though I said to my kids, if in the middle of the year somebody came to you and said,

00:01:32.960 hey, would you like a week off? You know, they'd be thrilled. So it's just the fact that it's the

00:01:37.320 last one that makes it painful. But a week off is a week off for the kids. So hey, enjoy if you've

00:01:42.200 got it. We here in the news world are on verdict watch as jurors are still deliberating in the

00:01:49.020 Lindsay Clancy case into day three. It is interesting to me that they are still deliberating.

00:01:53.600 I mean, they had part of Thursday, they had all of Friday.

00:01:56.840 Now here we are back at it Monday.

00:01:58.640 I mean, it does make you wonder, what are they deliberating?

00:02:02.020 We'll get to that later with our panel, including somebody who's been in the courtroom following

00:02:06.980 the case very closely, and the legal aspects will be covered with one of our MK True Crime

00:02:13.600 hosts.

00:02:14.440 But we've got also some Meghan and Harry drama.

00:02:17.740 The reporting on that absolutely exploded over the weekend from Dan Wooten, who's got

00:02:22.620 impeccable sources when it comes to the Royals, to this Alison Borshoff at the Daily Mail, who

00:02:28.900 Maureen and many others see as the person to follow when it comes to these two losers.

00:02:37.320 There's been some rather jaw-dropping reports on what's really going on with this move, so

00:02:42.040 we'll cover it. And Michelle Obama, you'll be shocked, has new complaints about her kids,

00:02:47.380 who she doesn't miss at all.

00:02:50.320 According to her,

00:02:51.580 I will not be getting sued for defamation.

00:02:53.860 That's straight out of the horse's mouth.

00:02:56.300 Here with me now is Jesse Kelly.

00:02:58.440 He is the host of I'm Right,

00:03:00.480 as well as the Jesse Kelly Show on SiriusXM's

00:03:03.440 The Megyn Kelly Channel, 111, every weeknight.

00:03:07.640 We are still a couple months out,

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00:04:04.920 Jesse, welcome back.

00:04:06.000 How you doing?

00:04:06.380 Oh, I'm so good, Megan, because summer is almost over.

00:04:11.460 And while this may be a glorious time

00:04:13.220 for people around the country,

00:04:14.940 Those of us who live in Texas despise summer because the weather in Texas, as much as I love my state, sucks year-round.

00:04:22.740 But summer, it sucks to an extra degree.

00:04:25.500 It's just so miserable down here the whole time.

00:04:28.940 And thank God it's almost over.

00:04:30.340 I'm a very happy man.

00:04:31.980 I can feel that.

00:04:33.120 I'm sure that's true.

00:04:33.980 I mean, up here in the Northeast, of course, it's the opposite.

00:04:36.660 It's so glorious.

00:04:37.600 It's the weather you wish you had all year-round.

00:04:40.760 And then you have nine months of winter as soon as the summer passes, which is about to about to happen.

00:04:47.280 What are your kids back at school already or not yet?

00:04:49.400 The kids are back in school.

00:04:50.720 And look, this is coming for you, Megan, at some point in time.

00:04:54.940 But I have to deal with my wife now because I have a senior.

00:04:59.500 And so everything is the last thing, you know, her baby is about my oldest.

00:05:04.840 I should say her baby's about to leave.

00:05:07.300 He's doing senior portraits.

00:05:08.940 It's his last year of cross-country.

00:05:11.580 It's his last year of everything.

00:05:14.000 And so it's a heavy time around the Kelly household.

00:05:18.000 Bob says hi, by the way.

00:05:19.240 Yes, and to her too.

00:05:22.120 I don't think I'll handle this well because one of the things that I do to avoid the pain of goodbyes, which I do hate, like most people, is I avoid them.

00:05:32.800 You know, I'm big on the Irish exit.

00:05:35.780 If I can avoid a goodbye, I will.

00:05:38.420 and then you just move on with your life and it's not that you like the person or love the person

00:05:42.360 any less at all but you just skip the painful part and then the next thing you know you're

00:05:47.300 you've got another appointment to see them at a holiday or what have you but with your children

00:05:51.680 that doesn't work and yet you know there will be an exit at the end of that senior year and it is

00:05:58.360 going to be terribly painful and there's no way around it jesse no there's not and look i'm if

00:06:05.360 I'm being completely honest.

00:06:06.500 It's just you and me talking, and God knows how many of your wonderful listeners.

00:06:10.300 It's a little heavy for me, too.

00:06:12.760 Now, I'm not showing it, right?

00:06:14.220 I'm giving him the old, yeah, you're ready to go.

00:06:17.660 I've never been prouder.

00:06:18.960 Can't wait to have my own house back.

00:06:20.600 I'm kind of giving him a little bit of that kind of thing.

00:06:23.380 I think it's probably just as heavy for me.

00:06:26.420 It's wild.

00:06:27.860 You raise them, and then they're gone.

00:06:30.140 And that's the way it is.

00:06:32.040 You raise them best you can.

00:06:33.540 He's a wonderful young man, both the boys.

00:06:34.920 They're wonderful young men.

00:06:36.160 I'm not stressing anything, but you never know.

00:06:39.100 It's a scary, rough world out there, and off the little birdies going to have to fly from the nest.

00:06:44.180 Yes, and also those mile markers in time bring up everything that came before,

00:06:52.300 and this is how you become unhappy.

00:06:55.060 Thinking about days past is truly a recipe for unhappiness, whether it's good or bad,

00:07:01.560 because the goodness has passed.

00:07:04.100 It's over.

00:07:04.520 They're fond memories, but you're thinking about it because this child is about to leave you.

00:07:09.220 That stint of your life where you're their active parent with them in your home is ending.

00:07:13.860 So it's sad, even though it's happy, you know, in this particular circumstance, it's sad and happy at once.

00:07:19.940 Yeah, it is. It's sad and happy at once.

00:07:22.580 And there's also this part of it, and I'm sure so many people can relate to this now, sadly, in this economy, is, is he going to leave?

00:07:30.120 you know what what career opportunities are going to be available to him don't get me wrong great

00:07:35.840 worker honorable student all these things but in this economy all my friends are going through this

00:07:42.040 who have recent college graduates high school graduates their kids are having a hard time

00:07:47.040 finding established employment you know i can't talk to i can't tell you how many of my friends

00:07:51.880 megan i've talked to where my daughter graduated you know got good grades sent out 200 resumes i

00:07:57.680 and had a callback sent out 400 resumes got one callback these stories you hear and now we're

00:08:03.280 going into that season right and that that would be more heartbreaking for me than anything else

00:08:07.700 not because i'm anxious to boot him out the front door but he wants to have a career you know he's a

00:08:12.400 man he wants to have a career he wants to you know find a lovely young dime and put a ring on her

00:08:16.940 finger and provide for a family you know the things men want and hopefully you never know

00:08:22.000 hopefully that'll come for him but this is this is something all parents are going to every parent

00:08:26.500 listen to me right now. It's not in their head because everyone's going through the same thing

00:08:29.300 right now. Absolutely right. I've seen so many of my friends who have kids a little bit older than

00:08:34.300 mine dealing with the same thing. It doesn't matter even four-year college, two-year college,

00:08:40.120 no college. They're all having trouble finding a job. It doesn't matter what the credentials are.

00:08:45.760 And it's like blue-collar job, white-collar job, they're struggling. And even though if you read

00:08:52.800 the paper. That's how it's very easy to find a job is like a plumber or an electrician. No,

00:08:56.840 it isn't. It is not. That's not true. And so this is actually one of the reasons why Trump

00:09:01.880 is getting punished in these poll numbers, because people blame him the same way they

00:09:05.700 blame Joe Biden when he was president. Now they've blamed this president because he's in the White

00:09:09.680 House. And, you know, whether the president can or cannot directly affect the job market

00:09:15.220 is something that gets debated. But for sure, he's held accountable. You know, for sure,

00:09:19.920 the American public says this guy promised to fix things. He didn't fix things. And my kid

00:09:26.540 can't afford an apartment. Well, look, that's the reason Trump is in office. I mean, those of us

00:09:31.940 who have voted for Trump multiple times, that's certainly me. We have our own things we want,

00:09:36.840 you know, things we like, things we don't like. That's perfectly normal. But us political people

00:09:41.440 are not who decides who the president is going to be. It's the relatively normal people out there.

00:09:47.240 if you get a big enough mass of them who are passionate about one or two issues that is the

00:09:52.460 issue that's going to decide who the next president of the united states of america is

00:09:56.060 and donald trump is the current president of the united states of america because people couldn't

00:10:00.700 afford things and couldn't find good work that's why i know everybody you know maha is very real

00:10:05.380 i'm not dismissing things like that the other parts of the maga coalition but the reason donald

00:10:10.140 trump is in the white house is after four years of joe biden i still can't afford this i can't

00:10:15.080 for that gas is too expensive i'm making a change so he even won the popular vote now you bring up

00:10:20.720 a good point in that the president he's not he's not a god king and he can't on you know he can't

00:10:25.540 unprint seven trillion dollars that we printed during covet there's all kinds of things the

00:10:29.480 president can't do there's some things he can do but all kinds of things he can't do but the people

00:10:34.480 again the non-political people who decide elections they will lay the blame at the feet of the

00:10:40.280 president. And you're right. It's it's it's it's burying him in the approval numbers right now and

00:10:46.200 has the potential to bury Republicans in November. There's no question about that sober reality. I

00:10:51.260 don't like it, but that's it looks bad right now. It's fair game because each side each side does

00:10:57.580 it to the other. You know, when the party that's out of power is looking at bad economy numbers,

00:11:02.660 they blame the party in power, which Trump absolutely did. And Trump rallies said he can

00:11:07.600 fix it. Only he can fix it. And yet it's not fixed. You know, people are feeling the pain. So

00:11:12.520 he's going to have to deal with that fallout. And the Republicans really are the ones who are

00:11:16.040 going to have to deal with the fallout because Trump's no longer on the ballot, but the GOP is.

00:11:20.920 I don't, it's like I've said for a while, like there's no one left to believe in when it comes to

00:11:24.980 a lot of the problems in Washington. I really think it's private industry that's going to

00:11:29.660 have to step up and help rescue us. The Elon Musks of the world I still believe in because

00:11:34.800 they're entrepreneurial and they're big thinkers and they actually understand how the economy

00:11:38.580 works and they're not stymied by a 60 vote majority rule in the Senate.

00:11:44.520 You can't get anything through like it's just everything's built not to work.

00:11:48.760 All right.

00:11:48.900 But wait, I want to go back to our children, because this is the perfect segue into Michelle

00:11:54.020 Obama, who we knew as many things.

00:11:56.500 Sociopath is a new one.

00:11:57.940 I was not aware she's a sociopath who feels nothing for her children other than disdain.

00:12:04.420 Oh, wait, I was kind of aware.

00:12:06.400 Here she is.

00:12:07.020 She had Jon Stewart on her program.

00:12:09.820 We actually went back and watched the whole thing.

00:12:12.080 And we are avid consumers of Michelle Obama content.

00:12:16.060 We're the ones.

00:12:17.060 And even my team was like, that was literally the only interesting moment or exchange.

00:12:22.300 Nothing else in the entire show had anything of interest.

00:12:25.780 So I will show you the one moment.

00:12:27.540 And it is interesting, just given what we've already gleaned about her and her feelings

00:12:31.420 about her husband and her children, but the subject that we just discussed came up.

00:12:36.260 What does one feel when one's children fly the coop and no longer live with you and go

00:12:43.140 off to live their own lives?

00:12:45.320 And it's not to say nobody wants their child to obtain independence.

00:12:49.280 It's just there's a separate lane of feelings that one would normally feel as a mother or

00:12:55.620 father not so in the case of michelle o watch then it's just the two of you again yeah and it's a

00:13:04.580 really kind of lovely like it's a comfort like you've been through all these wars and now you're

00:13:12.900 kind of just together again on the couch and you obviously miss you know the the energy and

00:13:16.860 excitement of the kids being around is so i don't incredible i don't i love them i'm gonna see them

00:13:23.400 tonight for dinner i love them yeah but you know barack cried when they went to college i was like

00:13:29.780 bye little goodbye now i now friday nights aren't wrecked with terror and fear about where are you

00:13:39.160 where are you right you know i was i love their emancipation and growth and the thing i miss

00:13:45.720 though is the job like don't you miss see your kids are still in high school so it's still a job

00:13:50.460 Yes, like the it gave a meaning and like pattern to my life.

00:13:55.680 I'm good.

00:13:56.320 Yeah, she's different.

00:13:59.380 I have a wonderful pattern, you know, I love my kids schedule.

00:14:05.360 I love it.

00:14:05.760 I love this schedule.

00:14:06.720 I love this.

00:14:07.540 I love my schedule.

00:14:08.780 I have a great schedule and it's all mine.

00:14:16.040 Okay.

00:14:17.260 Okay.

00:14:18.340 I have a couple of thoughts on this, Jesse, and I'd love to hear what you think.

00:14:22.560 I don't miss them.

00:14:24.060 That's okay.

00:14:24.920 That's out there.

00:14:26.060 That's pretty extreme.

00:14:27.300 In her defense, she might have said, I don't miss it, you know, having them, whatever.

00:14:31.460 But either way, she's not missing the experience of actively mothering her children, which

00:14:37.100 comes as really not that big a surprise.

00:14:39.840 If you listen to Michelle Obama over the years, she has, I mean, almost uniformly negative

00:14:46.380 comments to make about being a mother and being a wife. She did not enjoy it in any way, shape or

00:14:52.800 form. Now, I will say my own mother, who's very funny, said to me on the air once when I was at

00:14:59.580 NBC, I cried when your sister went off to school. That's her oldest child. But by the time we got

00:15:06.780 to you, I didn't cry at all because I was the third kid. So she was kind of used to it. And it

00:15:11.580 was funny and it was also true i think this is something else i genuinely think michelle obama

00:15:16.940 did not enjoy her time as an active mother and she did not enjoy her time as an active wife

00:15:23.680 and she did not enjoy her time as first lady and the reason she didn't enjoy any of those things

00:15:30.260 is because she's a miserable person jesse you know i'll tell you why she didn't enjoy any of

00:15:36.620 those things well i mean look what makes a great wife or a great mother you know i'll talk about

00:15:41.140 mine my wife selflessness is what makes it great i mean yeah she makes uh she makes a mean uh

00:15:48.260 berry cobbler no question that's not what makes it great you know what why she's why is she a

00:15:53.420 great mother she pours into those kids and sacrifices her own time because her children

00:16:01.400 are you know everything to her she does the same thing for me it's selflessness that makes a great

00:16:06.800 wife and a great mother if you listen to that soundbite it jumped out at me and i'd already

00:16:11.500 seen it but it jumped out at me when i listened to the listen to it again it was me mine i me i

00:16:17.340 me my friday me mine it was not long ago megan you'll remember this actually you and i might

00:16:23.080 have even talked about this on the air she did an interview with barack obama i forget what which

00:16:28.320 liberal hack dork was interviewing them but he's he said to him it was one of those one word answer

00:16:33.400 things you have one word answer this next period of your life what's it about and baraka they go

00:16:37.800 to barack obama and barack obama says fun and you remember what michelle obama's answer was

00:16:42.160 me me that's what she said me here it is mine me wait let's watch it stop three

00:16:47.220 one word to describe your next chapter one word fun uh me

00:16:55.040 that's what you call drop the mic

00:16:59.320 why i mean keep going why is she why is she excited about the kids leaving why was she always

00:17:07.620 complaining about something as first lady to this day she looks back even though she's basically a

00:17:13.120 retired queen at this point in time it sucks this is what i couldn't do this and this because it

00:17:18.780 wasn't all about her anything that wasn't all about her was a burden to her you could give her

00:17:24.000 as many flights on air force one and security details and netflix deals and all these things

00:17:29.260 in the world but if it's not all about her she's miserable and honestly it it selfishness is all

00:17:37.120 i hear anytime i hear michelle obama me mine i this dad my friday is back it's uh that sucks

00:17:45.700 and first of all the the notion of now fridays are not wrecked with where are you that's a lie

00:17:52.740 to those daughters have secret service protection and they have the entire rise to majority and

00:18:00.020 thereafter. Like she, she was never wondering where they were on Friday night. They have paid

00:18:06.040 for America by the American taxpayer, 24, seven guards. Michelle Obama knew very well where they

00:18:12.760 were. That's her trying to sound relatable or maybe a light bulb moment at the end of her

00:18:16.780 comment being like, Oh shit, I sound kind of heartless when I'm talking about my Fridays

00:18:20.480 are no longer wrecked and she tags on oh you know worrying about where they were no you knew

00:18:24.660 perfectly well where they were stop it in a way most average parents never will um here she is

00:18:31.160 this is not new for her in case i'm sure the listening audience has better things to do than

00:18:35.440 listen to michelle obama's musings about her children but we put together just a sampling

00:18:39.400 this is just her over the years about parenthood fun watching them become people right before your

00:18:45.560 very eyes and scary yeah oh my god the most terrifying thing so i tell people it makes sense

00:18:52.500 not to have kids absolute complete emotional sense don't do it i'm so glad i didn't have a boy

00:18:59.420 he would have been a barack obama the baby barack it would have been amazing no i would have felt

00:19:08.120 for him i try to tell couples of course it's hard just listen to what i said right like it's

00:19:15.480 If you're having some issues in your marriage, it's not you.

00:19:20.180 It's the process of marriage.

00:19:22.860 It's just all hard because guess what happens when it all works out right?

00:19:26.500 You know what you end up with?

00:19:29.200 Babies.

00:19:31.660 Little people with their own sense of everything.

00:19:36.020 They mess you up.

00:19:37.500 You love them dearly, but they're a hassle.

00:19:40.420 But I wouldn't go back to any of the stages.

00:19:42.720 I don't long for the time when they were babies.

00:19:46.020 All I can say is no more babies, no more tuition.

00:19:52.320 Jesse, this person hated motherhood from the beginning to now.

00:19:59.620 And did you hear that part about if I had had a boy, he would have ended up as a little Barack and as a as a bad thing, as a bad talking down that way?

00:20:12.220 could you imagine a god god forbid you turn out like my husband how horrible that would be

00:20:18.100 she's just an unbelievably self-centered person i i think that my my what i suspect from what i've

00:20:25.220 gathered from michelle obama over the years with her public comments and the stories you read about

00:20:30.220 her is i think michelle obama thought that she was going to be the one who was going to rise to

00:20:36.500 whatever whatever maybe not president of the united states of america but maybe some business

00:20:41.320 leader or some civil rights leader or something i i think michelle obama i think michelle obama

00:20:46.920 spent a long time in her childhood thinking her name was going to be in the bright lights

00:20:51.160 and she ends up married to a man who's president for you know two-term president and everything

00:20:56.400 else and the things that that you know a good wife would be proud of and happy about you know

00:21:02.560 barack obama this barack obama that i think it was all all of it like kicking dirt in her face i think

00:21:08.560 every time something great happens to Barack or something like that, I think it was all

00:21:12.860 a reminder that he's getting what she should get. And it comes out of her every time she speaks.

00:21:20.340 Yes. And she's like, he's mediocre. He doesn't deserve this. Why is he the subject of universal

00:21:27.380 adulation? And she's right. He doesn't deserve it. He is mediocre. But the people on her side

00:21:33.180 of the aisle don't feel that way. And she's probably sick and tired of it. You know, first

00:21:37.780 first of all, we were right. We did this as one of our parodies here on the MK show and the

00:21:44.640 Huffington post called it bizarre. What a bizarre way of making fun of Michelle Obama. Hello. We

00:21:50.520 called this well over a couple of years ago, a year plus ago. Uh, here's a piece from our

00:21:55.920 Megan. Oh, parody. So five here. Megan. Oh, share the many joys of parenthood.

00:22:02.540 I don't understand these women who have these kids.

00:22:07.740 Oh, I'm going to have these kids.

00:22:08.980 They're going to be so great.

00:22:09.900 Do you know what having children does to your life?

00:22:13.080 It ruins it.

00:22:14.760 They mess you up.

00:22:16.260 Your life is ruined.

00:22:17.760 Say goodbye to your happiness, whatever may have existed.

00:22:20.980 They're a hassle.

00:22:22.260 They're exhausting.

00:22:23.920 And they're demanding.

00:22:25.660 Finally, they're launched.

00:22:27.200 So now mine are somebody else's problem.

00:22:29.560 But my God, the sacrifice.

00:22:31.960 i i could have been happy jesse nailed it you nailed that one it just it comes out of her and

00:22:42.020 look think about what that's like for her kids and to to hear that stuff for her kids that's

00:22:47.140 that's a tough thing i mean it's one thing to have a father who's maybe a little bit hard-nosed

00:22:51.600 that's more traditional type thing but when that's mom when it's mom who treats you like a

00:22:57.640 Like, she's mad she had you, and she's thrilled you're gone.

00:23:02.640 That's things.

00:23:03.820 I'll tell you what, that is one of those things.

00:23:05.340 She's mad she had you.

00:23:06.840 She's mad she had you, and she's thrilled you're gone.

00:23:09.100 That's one of those things you carry through the rest of your life when they're moms.

00:23:12.960 And they'll talk about that with people.

00:23:14.560 That's one of those things you carry with you.

00:23:16.580 And Michelle Obama, even if you feel these things, why don't you shut up?

00:23:21.860 Why do you feel the need to say these things publicly?

00:23:25.100 Because, again, you can't stay out of the limelight.

00:23:28.080 You can't just be the wealthy former first lady in a mansion in Hawaii or getting $500,000 a speech or whatever it is.

00:23:36.320 That's not enough.

00:23:37.160 Because, again, her name was the one supposed to be in the bright light.

00:23:41.060 So I'm going to do a podcast and go on everyone else's podcast and just crap all over everybody.

00:23:47.020 It's my chance to get back at everyone.

00:23:49.200 My children.

00:23:50.640 Crap all over my children.

00:23:51.600 it's like the one thing most people will be defensive of, you know, they'll give you a

00:23:57.040 point. Oh yeah, this does kind of suck politics. Okay. I see your point about my side. Your side

00:24:01.540 sucks, but my side's got problems too, whatever. But when it comes to one's children, most of the

00:24:06.620 mothers I know, they might come to you as a friend and say, Oh, Junior's having this trouble with

00:24:11.560 this. What do you think we can do? But they don't rip on their children in a way that suggests they

00:24:16.860 don't love them, care for them, want to be with them. That's generally, at least the moms I know,

00:24:23.720 a line most won't cross. She's never crossed over to the side where you say something loving about

00:24:28.560 them. She felt there to say something like, I mean, I love them. I love them. But like when you

00:24:33.080 feel like you have to say that, the rest of your conversation is probably not great. It's probably

00:24:39.160 not so great. Here's an example that's got it all. This is her not long ago on moving Malia

00:24:44.580 into college sought for?

00:24:46.820 We're doing all the college stuff.

00:24:49.100 I'm making her bed

00:24:50.280 because whenever they went to camp

00:24:51.420 or somewhere, I said,

00:24:52.180 I'll make your bed once

00:24:53.260 and I'll make it really neat and nice.

00:24:55.700 And then that's it.

00:24:56.240 It's up to you.

00:24:57.240 Got her room all set up

00:24:58.700 and you could tell Barack

00:24:59.960 was totally clueless.

00:25:01.480 He didn't know where to be.

00:25:03.020 We gave him a lamp from Ikea

00:25:05.120 and said, put it together.

00:25:06.900 Here, you take this box.

00:25:08.840 You put it together.

00:25:09.760 There was nothing to put together,

00:25:11.120 but he was over there

00:25:11.960 with his lamp for like two hours.

00:25:13.660 We had to get in this motorcade and leave the baby behind, you know, and to watch her standing at that restaurant, oh, waving goodbye.

00:25:23.720 So I'm crying for our kids in the car.

00:25:26.460 You know, we're driving back to the Air Force One in the motorcade.

00:25:30.500 You know, we're a little quiet and I hear this.

00:25:35.600 That was literally the sign.

00:25:38.080 I had to look over and be like, the agents are like, sir, are you okay?

00:25:43.420 and he's like it's like just man just do it just cry let it go that's unbelievable like honestly

00:25:52.000 she's looking to humiliate him you know just the imitation of him choking up and obviously he's

00:25:59.900 the sentimental one between the two of them i think jesse the reason he was probably trying

00:26:04.420 to hold it in is because he's married to a stone hearted sociopath who clearly felt almost nothing

00:26:14.220 there she claims she cried but boy very different messaging in that sound but i just played with

00:26:18.260 john stewart yeah it's michelle obama and i almost in a way and i need to clarify in a way i almost

00:26:26.560 feel a little bit bad for her i do this sometimes when it comes to wealthy powerful people who are

00:26:31.420 obviously miserable. I mean, you only get one shot at this life, whether you're poor or rich or

00:26:36.500 famous or nobody knows who you are. You're not going to get to do over. You don't get to come

00:26:40.880 back and try it again. So imagine if you get unbelievable blessings on this earth and you're

00:26:47.180 just miserable the entire time. What a waste of a wonderful life that would be, whether you're

00:26:53.200 rich or poor. If you never find anything to smile about, if you never look around and think this is

00:26:58.600 wonderful how have you ever in her years what is it now megan 20 years something like that

00:27:03.380 of them being in the public eye do you ever remember a time of that woman seeming genuinely

00:27:09.280 full of joy and and happiness i never remember she's always mad always miserable always offended

00:27:16.360 always it's a constant state of affairs and you know what speaking of people i don't like who i

00:27:21.880 feel a little bit bad for because i can't stand barack obama i think he really did a lot to destroy

00:27:26.580 the united states of america imagine being stuck tethered to that thing for the rest of your life

00:27:33.020 i'll tell you what i would golf more than anybody's ever i'd be on the pga tour because i'd spend so

00:27:38.680 much time on the golf course i'd be well you know honey i have a business meeting in saudi arabia

00:27:44.020 i'll be back in a couple weeks and i would be gone forever you'd never see me or just get a divorce

00:27:50.740 Like the children are grown. Get a divorce. Barack Obama would have no trouble finding someone to actually love him and root for him and have stars in her eyes for him. No trouble whatsoever. They should get a divorce. Honestly, it's very clear they don't love each other. She's not capable of loving him.

00:28:12.800 And how can he love just the steaming heap of nastiness?

00:28:17.080 Like, no one's in love with a steaming heap of negativity.

00:28:20.200 That's all she is about everything.

00:28:22.400 Like I say, it's not just him.

00:28:23.580 It's not just the children.

00:28:24.840 Time is first lady, my God.

00:28:26.840 She hates everything, as far as I can tell, except for her current schedule.

00:28:31.840 That is the one exception.

00:28:34.040 And the whole thing reminds me of this comment John Stossel made to me, who I love.

00:28:37.940 He's hysterical.

00:28:38.760 And we were friends, but we also worked together at Fox many years.

00:28:42.800 And one time I got into the elevator with him at Fox.

00:28:45.660 It was just the two of us.

00:28:46.660 And I said, Stossel, how's it going?

00:28:48.200 And he said, terribly.

00:28:49.560 I said, what's the matter?

00:28:50.640 He goes, my children, they left.

00:28:54.780 This is how this ends.

00:28:56.540 They leave you in the end.

00:28:58.160 It was like the big reveal.

00:28:59.580 And Stossel is not an overly sentimental guy, but the normal person definitely feels that heart tug when your baby,

00:29:10.320 who is like your sweet toddler

00:29:12.220 and you were just pushing in a stroller

00:29:14.060 and then on the swing and teaching his ABCs

00:29:16.780 and how to ride a bike and to come of age.

00:29:19.720 And the problems change,

00:29:21.120 but they're also still interesting

00:29:22.900 and kind of fun to work out together

00:29:24.520 as they get a little older.

00:29:26.420 Is leaving, is going to move out?

00:29:28.940 Now I'm gonna get myself worked up,

00:29:30.340 but I don't have to think about it yet.

00:29:31.400 I got another two years, but they are gonna leave.

00:29:34.160 They're not gonna live with you anymore.

00:29:35.520 It's tough on you, your spouse, your other kids.

00:29:38.140 I'm sorry, but there's something wrong with somebody who talks about it in those cavalier

00:29:43.040 terms, like it's a joy and she can't wait to kick them in the ass on the way out.

00:29:47.700 You know what Ob had to do today, Megan? My youngest son turns 16 tomorrow. And so right

00:29:56.360 when the place opens, he'll be taking his driver's test tomorrow morning. So assuming

00:30:02.620 that he passes today was the last day ob got to drive him to school and we woke up this morning

00:30:10.940 together at like 7 a.m or something like that or i woke up she was already up getting ready to

00:30:15.580 shuttle him out the door and it was first thing she said to me she's like it's the last time i

00:30:19.820 get to drive my little boy to school so yeah yeah these things are hard they're very hard i was

00:30:27.300 saying that to Doug. So he's, um, our oldest is 16. He'll be 17 in September. And, um, he did get

00:30:33.900 his driver's license or he got his permit, but he hasn't yet taken his driver's test. Um, I don't

00:30:38.900 know why it just kind of took a while. And, and Doug was like, you know, Yates, you got to get in

00:30:43.800 there and get your test. And then I was like, why are we, why encourage him? Like as soon as he gets

00:30:48.060 it, he's probably going to want to drive himself to school. He's not going to want us to drive him

00:30:51.840 anymore. And Doug, since they were little, Jesse, Doug and I split the drives. Like he takes the

00:30:58.000 boys three days a week and I take my daughter, the other two. And then the next week we reverse it,

00:31:02.640 or I take the boys three days a week and he takes my daughter too, what have you. And for one year

00:31:08.780 we were commuting our kids from the city. It's a long story, but we wanted to get the hell out of

00:31:14.140 Manhattan and those woke schools. So for one year we had to commute our kids and it was, it was tough.

00:31:18.660 Just the boys, just the boys, because they got in and the school was like, it's now or never.

00:31:24.320 So for the full year, Doug and the boys used to leave our house at the crack of dawn.

00:31:28.580 It was pitch black outside.

00:31:30.580 And by the time they got out here to Connecticut, everyone was weary, bleary.

00:31:35.840 And Doug started this tradition with the kids of pulling over before they got to the school and doing what we call a fire drill.

00:31:41.640 You know, like sort of the Chinese fire drill that we used to do as kids.

00:31:43.940 and they will get, they'll crank the radio,

00:31:47.360 they'll get out of the car

00:31:48.120 and they'll run around the car.

00:31:49.880 They call it like twice counterclockwise,

00:31:52.620 twice clockwise, whatever it is,

00:31:54.940 with the music blasting.

00:31:57.440 And then we moved up yards

00:31:59.640 and the whole five of us were living here

00:32:02.320 and he started to do it with Yardley.

00:32:04.600 Long story short, they're still doing it.

00:32:06.460 My oldest is going into junior year.

00:32:09.660 And I'm like, Doug, as soon as Yates starts driving,

00:32:12.880 no more fire drills.

00:32:13.940 And boy, that put an end to the encouragement of Yates to get that driver's like, take your time.

00:32:19.360 What's the rush?

00:32:20.440 You're good.

00:32:22.820 It's heavy.

00:32:23.960 You know it's coming.

00:32:24.860 It's one of those things that's wild.

00:32:26.320 You know it's coming.

00:32:27.580 Everyone knows it's coming.

00:32:29.040 But once it actually gets there, especially if you love them, right?

00:32:32.640 So I don't know that I was ever any kind of a decent father, but I love them, and I love them to death.

00:32:38.460 It's heavy.

00:32:39.940 But it's wonderful.

00:32:40.960 It's wonderful, but it's heavy.

00:32:41.940 Like you said, bittersweet is the best way to describe it.

00:32:45.500 Yeah.

00:32:46.040 Well, my one comfort is, like, we have dear friends.

00:32:49.360 You know, we spend the summer at the Jersey Shore, and there in particular, we have friends

00:32:52.860 who have kids who are older, who are in their mid-20s now, and their kids are so close to

00:33:00.060 them still.

00:33:01.240 They come back all the time when they can on the summers or on the weekends, and now

00:33:06.980 they have different friends, and now they have more serious boyfriends or girlfriends,

00:33:11.180 and they're going through a different phase of life,

00:33:12.760 but they're still so tight and so loving.

00:33:15.720 And I think if you do it right,

00:33:16.860 if you raise a loving family

00:33:18.740 where they feel connected to you and vice versa,

00:33:21.460 it's not goodbye.

00:33:22.580 It's a change, but it's definitely not goodbye.

00:33:25.100 And like, it can be a really exciting, fun new phase

00:33:29.620 where they bring all sorts of different energies

00:33:31.860 and stimuli back into your home

00:33:34.720 that are new and exciting.

00:33:37.620 And I don't know, that'll expand your universe

00:33:40.160 and make you feel happier.

00:33:41.380 So fingers crossed for that kind of a future,

00:33:44.440 unlike the one that Sasha and Malia Obama are facing,

00:33:48.780 which is probably a locked door with chains

00:33:50.960 when they get back to the family house.

00:33:54.720 Let's hope not.

00:33:56.280 Okay, I want to keep going.

00:33:58.060 We talked about your time in Texas,

00:34:00.140 the miserable summer weather.

00:34:01.860 What is going on with the Paxton-Talerico race?

00:34:05.860 Because the audience probably knows

00:34:08.260 you definitely didn't want Cornyn.

00:34:09.940 and you're an actual Texan, didn't want Cornyn.

00:34:13.000 He was like, you know, establishment, old hat, et cetera.

00:34:17.460 There were all sorts of reasons.

00:34:18.900 Everybody keeps touting his donor network

00:34:20.980 and what a great fundraiser he is.

00:34:22.900 And whenever I read it, I think of you.

00:34:24.240 I'm like, I think Jesse Kelly would be looking at that

00:34:26.420 as not a great thing.

00:34:28.600 It means he's owned.

00:34:29.660 The reason he has all these donors trying to give him money

00:34:31.920 is because all these special interests who own him.

00:34:35.180 But it made news this weekend because he said

00:34:37.900 he is not going to fundraise for Ken Paxton, who is now the Republican nominee who beat him for the

00:34:43.940 nominee against this lunatic James Tallarico. And I get it. I'd probably be pissed too if I lost to

00:34:51.240 Ken Paxton. I probably wouldn't want to fundraise for him. But the alternative is basically helping

00:34:57.440 Tallarico win, right? Because he's like, I'm going to give my money to other states where they need

00:35:02.420 it, but not to Ken Paxton, who he called lazy and said he's a bad fundraiser. And I don't know,

00:35:08.460 I think it's all hands on deck to stop this Tallarico from winning. And he is a point to

00:35:13.120 two points ahead in the average of polls down there. All right, Megan. So interrupt me whenever

00:35:19.480 you want. Obviously, it's your show, but I'm about to filibuster here and lay kind of all this thing

00:35:24.100 out for everybody and explain exactly what's happening and why is it happening. John Cornyn

00:35:29.620 was in senate leadership now people have to understand something there are five to ten

00:35:36.540 republican there might be more but that's rough five to ten republican senators what they do is

00:35:45.700 they keep their foot in the door so we can never fully slam the door on communism in the united

00:35:52.640 states of america they'll vote with you on this or that or that thing but whenever there's like

00:35:58.160 Save America Act, actually.

00:35:59.860 We've got a great example of it.

00:36:01.260 Whenever there's a huge thing that they could do that would really stick a knife in the ribs of the communist revolution in this country, they will turn around and betray you.

00:36:12.240 And here's what else is wild.

00:36:13.660 These 5 to 10, maybe 15 senators are almost universally from blood-red states.

00:36:22.360 Blood-red states, states that could elect somebody to the right of me.

00:36:26.380 It's Utah.

00:36:27.300 It's the Dakota.

00:36:28.160 us it's texas it's the carolinas it's on and on down the line blood red states send senators who

00:36:37.620 turn out to be traitorous scum to washington dc now why is that well here's why it is because the

00:36:44.880 red state gop primary voter has historically but we're getting better by the way has historically

00:36:50.820 been the laziest and stupidest voter in the united states of america and it's a very simple reason

00:36:56.000 When I drive through my town, Megan, I'm in rural Texas. I have all red representatives. There aren't homeless people on the streets, people getting stabbed. Life is pretty safe and normal here. Therefore, I'm not motivated to crawl across a mile of broken glass and vote in primaries. Now, I do vote in primaries, but I'm speaking for most voters.

00:37:15.360 So who does vote in primaries? Generally in red states, the people who vote in primaries are older people almost universally. They watch Fox News day and night. That's not an insult on Fox News. But when they turn on Fox News every day and night, they see Lindsey Graham doing interviews. They see this rhino doing interviews. They see that rhino doing interviews. And when the primary vote comes up, they say, Herb, we have to vote for John Cornyn again.

00:37:41.540 And so the red state loser GOP primary senator gets reelected and has been getting reelected for decades because of that dynamic, because the red state GOP primary voter does not vote in primary elections.

00:37:54.820 And what that has done is it's created an environment where these red state GOP primary voters have felt untouchable.

00:38:02.580 They raise gobs of money like Cornyn did.

00:38:05.160 They spread that money around the Senate to buy themselves leadership positions.

00:38:09.440 That's why Cornyn was in a leadership position, you know, minority whip stuff.

00:38:13.120 They spread that money around and they have convinced themselves presidents come and go, whatever case may be.

00:38:19.560 I'm a senator from Texas.

00:38:21.440 Also, I'm a cowboy hat and run some TV ads about being tough on the border every six years.

00:38:28.240 These morons will reelect me and then I can go back to protecting the swamp.

00:38:32.580 That has been the state of affairs for decades in this country.

00:38:35.900 it's why we are in such a bad pickle gop red state senators that bring again megan you can

00:38:41.160 interrupt me i'm still going but you can interrupt me no i'm interested that brings me to john

00:38:45.260 cornyn so what happened was john cornyn john cornyn uh flew a little too close to the sun

00:38:52.180 if we have to do a little greek mythology analogy here john cornyn because he had just been re-elected

00:38:58.520 recently in the wake of the uvalde school shooting mitch mcconnell tapped john cornyn

00:39:04.200 to work with Democrats on gun control legislation and Cornyn readily agreed to do it and did it and

00:39:12.200 got gun control passed. Why would he do something so apparently politically suicidal? Because it was

00:39:19.060 too far away from the election. These stupid Texas primary voters would never remember.

00:39:24.200 They'll let it all go, except the GOP red state primary voter is changing. He is waking up. He's

00:39:30.660 getting more involved and immediately after cornyn did this this didn't get widely publicized

00:39:35.900 he went to a state gop convention here where his people were handing out john cornyn lanyards there's

00:39:41.460 a picture you can go find it on the internet the lanyards filled up the trash can and cornyn got

00:39:46.040 booed off the stage the gop red state voter in texas did not forget it john cornyn did not lose

00:39:51.860 because of trump's lack of endorsement or anything else he lost because ken paxton had won multiple

00:39:57.180 statewide races and john cornyn betrayed his voters that's the only reason john cornyn lost

00:40:02.720 it's not more complicated than that now to where we are now why is the gop not spending money and

00:40:08.660 they've publicly announced they're not spending money every time i turn on the television to

00:40:12.500 watch baseball it's 8 000 james talarico ads i have to this day not seen one ken paxton ad not

00:40:17.700 one not a single one on television why is that the case just just to interject they say that um

00:40:23.460 that uh hold on reading here telly tallarico has outpaced paxton in direct advertising dollars by a

00:40:30.680 factor of 200 to 1 that tallarico has raised 30 million dollars in the second quarter of 2026 to

00:40:38.920 paxton's 9 million so there's a very serious funding and add by disparity between the two

00:40:46.080 keep going you'll see it again to the every tv commercial every tv commercial break there will

00:40:52.500 be a James Tallarico ad, not acting like the commie freak that he is, sitting with his

00:40:57.860 pawpaw, talking about Jesus and groceries every single time.

00:41:01.820 All right.

00:41:02.440 So what is happening here?

00:41:04.560 These senators who have been luxuriating in D.C. and feeling untouchable for a long time

00:41:10.220 finally got touched.

00:41:12.120 And if you're anybody, if you're John Thune, Kennedy, Tim Scott, Curtis, McConnell, I

00:41:18.340 know he's retiring, but you get the drift.

00:41:20.020 If you're any one of these guys, you sat up in your chair when John Cornyn lost the primary and said to yourself, oh, no, that could be me.

00:41:31.060 Are we are we are we not allowed to screw over our voters anymore?

00:41:35.440 Are they going to actually possibly vote us out of office?

00:41:39.400 And so what you're seeing is the Senate.

00:41:42.860 This is this is their fight back.

00:41:44.540 It's not that the GOP Senate is OK with Ken Paxton losing.

00:41:48.840 The GOP Senate wants Ken Paxton to lose the election so they can look at the GOP primary

00:41:57.620 voter and say, see, don't ever try that again, or this is what will happen.

00:42:03.420 The Republican senators, if they could politically get away with it, would be running ads for

00:42:09.140 James Tallarico and not Ken Paxton.

00:42:11.700 That's how bad they want Ken Paxton to lose the race.

00:42:13.880 And that's why.

00:42:15.100 Oh, my gosh.

00:42:16.260 I mean, this guy, like Tallarico, of all people, it just seems so not aligned with the state of Texas.

00:42:23.060 It will truly be a stunner if that's what happens.

00:42:26.140 But you're explaining why it might right here.

00:42:27.780 Again, the Real Clear Politics average of all polls shows him up 1.9, 46.4 to 44.5 over Ken Paxton.

00:42:38.240 He's dropping, you know, ad after ad after ad.

00:42:41.160 And John Cornyn tells it's the Texas Tribune's reporting saying he's lazy and he doesn't Paxton is lazy and doesn't like to work hard.

00:42:50.080 So is the writing on the wall?

00:42:51.440 We'll we'll see.

00:42:52.860 All right.

00:42:53.220 I want to keep going because there's plenty more to discuss.

00:42:55.460 Kathy Hochul, who is the Democrat governor of New York, who only became governor because Andrew Cuomo turned out to be a sex pest who got run out of office and she was his number two.

00:43:06.220 So she's an absolute moron, has done absolutely nothing of accomplishment in her entire life.

00:43:12.380 She can't string two sentences together.

00:43:14.240 She's best known in New York for wearing an enormous sort of gangbanger gold necklace that read vaxxed for for most of her time during the pandemic.

00:43:25.280 So that tells you something about her.

00:43:27.160 So she is getting just absolutely excoriated by some online for going to the Islamic Cultural Center School on East 97th Street in Manhattan, wearing a hijab.

00:43:43.300 She is wearing a hijab.

00:43:45.320 Jesse, look at this woman.

00:43:46.940 Here's a soundbite of her standing there.

00:43:49.480 This was posted on Friday by End Wokeness Saten.

00:43:57.160 This is ridiculous.

00:44:06.100 Okay.

00:44:07.360 The defenders of this will say, oh, she's being respectful of their customs.

00:44:11.980 You know, that's their custom, so she's being respectful.

00:44:14.360 Are they respectful of our customs?

00:44:16.400 Do they come into our communities and take off their hijab because they're in America now?

00:44:20.580 And we show our hair.

00:44:22.040 And we don't believe that women have to hide anything whatsoever to go anywhere or be anywhere.

00:44:27.160 They don't. They do their own thing. So why does Kathy Hochul or AOC, there's all this video now

00:44:34.160 emerging of these so-called feminist leaders on the left. Why do they have to hide their hair

00:44:40.020 so as not to offend Muslims in an Islamic center when they don't care about offending our customs

00:44:48.020 and wearing their hijabs, whatever. Most of us don't really give a shit. We don't pay attention

00:44:52.460 to what they're doing with their hair or not doing with their hair, but I'd be caught dead

00:44:57.100 before I'd put a hijab on inside an Islamic center or anywhere else for that matter, Jesse.

00:45:03.800 Well, this is what it looks like to be conquered, Megan. It's not more complicated than that. If

00:45:08.120 you import enough Islam into your country, the women will wear hijabs. You will have halal food

00:45:14.980 everywhere. You will hear the Muslim call to prayer in the parking lot several times a day.

00:45:21.320 this is what it looks like to be conquered and we are being conquered and every time you import

00:45:27.640 more islam into your country you guarantee these things these things are absolutely inevitable i

00:45:33.420 actually laugh when i see people on the right say things like we should ban sharia law we should

00:45:39.220 ban sharia law that's the most pointless thing i've ever heard in my entire life you can pass

00:45:43.520 all the laws you want if you import enough muslims you will have sharia law if you don't have enough

00:45:48.440 Muslims, you will not have Sharia law. The laws you passed mean absolutely nothing.

00:45:53.360 This is what is coming for the West. It's already come for places like the UK and others.

00:45:58.460 If it continues to be really nice and tried to do everything possible to avoid being called

00:46:03.800 bigot and racist, if the goal of the West is to avoid accusations of bigotry, then get used to

00:46:10.800 it. It's not going to be Kathy Hochul. It'll be every woman who resides inside the borders of

00:46:14.780 United States of America. That is what happens. It is a religion of conquest everywhere it goes

00:46:22.100 without a single exception. There's not one exception. The exact same thing happens and

00:46:28.740 the exact same thing will happen here. This is this is what it looks like to slowly be conquered.

00:46:35.360 She is actually out there talking about how, OK, she's such a feminist. And then listen to what

00:46:40.280 she said here about her son. This is from March of 2023. SOT 11. I tell other young moms, I said,

00:46:47.380 your kids will be better. My kids are more engaged. I raised my son as a feminist. He knows

00:46:53.400 that women have every right that a man ever has. And he'll make sure that his daughter has those

00:46:59.500 rights. So she's all for what? Female empowerment, I guess. Whatever her definition of feminism is

00:47:07.040 in today's standards, it really just means you're pro-abortion. And she wants her son to remember

00:47:11.900 that too, but she can't expose her hair because it's considered inappropriate in an Islamic center,

00:47:18.740 even though she is the sitting governor of New York. She's the sitting governor, Jesse. How dare

00:47:25.600 she? Honestly, I just feel like you go in there, you represent the people of New York, a state in

00:47:29.860 which I spent 50 years of my life, and you do it like a strong American woman and you obey

00:47:37.040 American customs, which do not require women to cover, well, virtually anything by today's

00:47:43.700 standards, but certainly not our hair. Well, people get confused about the red-green alliance

00:47:49.560 because it doesn't make sense, right? I'm a feminist, but I'll wear a hijab. What is going

00:47:55.220 on here? Why are the communists aligning with the Islamists? Why is this happening all over?

00:47:59.620 the globe. And all you really have to do is look at the history of alliances wherever, whatever

00:48:04.680 period of time in history, whatever location in history, it could be the Indian tribes. It could

00:48:09.700 be major nations. It doesn't matter what is the main driver of alliances throughout history. It

00:48:15.380 is not common values or anything like that. It is a common enemy. What drives people to work

00:48:21.880 together? They found someone they both hate and they work together in order to take that person

00:48:27.420 down. That is the main driver of alliances throughout history. Don't be confused about

00:48:32.260 the red-green alliance, but it doesn't make sense. Gay people are killed in these countries,

00:48:36.860 but now we are working. It makes perfect sense if you set aside these childish notions and just

00:48:42.180 accept that this is the red-green alliance and their goal is to burn down Christian-based

00:48:47.960 Western civilization. The communists want to do it. The Islamists want to do it. You can argue

00:48:52.880 about which one of those two groups is going to actually achieve power in the end. But neither of

00:48:57.760 those two groups are stressing about that particular thing at the moment, because they

00:49:01.600 understand they have an enemy to take down. And that enemy is you and me. Yeah. Last but not least,

00:49:10.540 Sonny Hostin's son, Gabriel, has now effectively gotten the trespassing case against him dismissed.

00:49:18.920 He completed a diversion program. And now the case is being resolved, reports TMZ.

00:49:25.480 It was a trespassing case. It got downgraded and dismissed because he completed this program, which would have been offered, I think, to most people, the diversion program.

00:49:36.260 So he completed it, but not without his mother to the end, injecting herself in this, Jesse, writing a letter on his behalf as a former federal prosecutor and reminding everybody that her son is a Harvard graduate.

00:49:49.380 it. The same thing she said when she rushed to his defense on site, this person constantly

00:49:55.160 bitching about white privilege and how she doesn't have it. Her son went to Harvard. He's got Harvard

00:50:01.680 privilege and she wanted the courts and everybody else involved in his arrest to know it to the end,

00:50:08.220 even when she was under public scrutiny for trying to rescue her, her, you know,

00:50:12.000 so-called young son. He's mid 20s. She kept doing it and behind the scenes really wanted everybody

00:50:17.940 to know he's from harvard i.e a good person isn't the most damaging part of that whole thing megan

00:50:25.220 that that that moron is a former federal prosecutor is that not the most disheartening thing to think

00:50:31.500 when you look at our whole judicial system of all the prosecutors and judges and all the different

00:50:35.980 parts of it throughout the country and you like to imagine at least imagine that okay maybe they

00:50:41.860 disagree with me politically but these are you know lofty intelligent people who want to do the

00:50:47.240 right thing. And then you realize Sonny Austin at one point in time held that job. And you think

00:50:51.780 to yourself, my word, are we screwed? It's so true. I just feel like I don't want to hear

00:51:00.000 another word from her ever again on privilege. Not one fucking word. OK, because most people's

00:51:05.300 son did not go to Harvard. Most people were not born to a former federal prosecutor and they don't

00:51:11.840 have their mommy rushing in at every turn every minor interaction with the law which you know

00:51:18.060 this guy wants us to believe this was why couldn't he handle it himself why couldn't he get a lawyer

00:51:22.340 why couldn't he have just paid the trespassing fine no because harvard a harvard graduate can't

00:51:27.800 have any marks on his record you see because he's a future leader he's a future king unlike your son

00:51:33.800 or mine that's how sunny hostin sees the world but she'll still bitch about him great to see you

00:51:38.420 Jesse Kelly. You too, Megan. Up next. We're on Verdict Watch. Our sponsor, the Electronic

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00:53:35.960 Jurors are now deliberating the fate of Lindsay Clancy, the 36-year-old Massachusetts woman on trial for killing her three young children.

00:53:44.660 She did kill them. The question is whether she should be held legally responsible.

00:53:48.160 She admits that she took the lives of her own children, but she says she wasn't responsible due to postpartum psychosis.

00:53:54.580 So she's pleaded not guilty by reason of mental defect or disease.

00:53:59.480 I want to bring in two guests to break down the latest as we await any word from this jury.

00:54:04.520 And there was word on Friday, and there's speculation today.

00:54:08.940 It's actually kind of, there's an interesting little twist.

00:54:11.400 We'll get to it.

00:54:12.560 Phil Holloway is here.

00:54:13.460 He is the co-host of the MK True Crime Show, which you can find at mktruecrime.com.

00:54:18.220 Just go to any place you get your podcast and type in MK True Crime, and the show will come up or YouTube.

00:54:23.320 And Lauren Conlon, she's a reporter for Los Angeles Magazine.

00:54:27.400 She's been closely following the case and reporting from the courtroom.

00:54:31.200 Great to have you both.

00:54:32.360 So on Friday, there was a question, Lauren, from the jury.

00:54:38.360 It's the only question we've received so far.

00:54:40.980 Tell us what they wanted to hear.

00:54:42.260 Sure.

00:54:42.720 The jury asked to see the knife that Lindsay Clancy reportedly used on herself for her suicide attempt.

00:54:48.820 And they also asked to see two bags of medication.

00:54:52.740 This medication came from the Clancy's kitchen

00:54:55.340 and also from Patrick and Lindsay's bedroom in the drawer.

00:54:59.640 And reportedly, the medication that came from the drawer

00:55:02.840 was never actually collected by the police.

00:55:05.180 This was given to the police after the fact

00:55:07.560 by the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington,

00:55:09.680 and Patrick Clancy.

00:55:10.920 So there was some miscommunication, I feel like,

00:55:14.120 in the hallway, in the courtroom,

00:55:16.740 because the judge didn't tell us this in open court.

00:55:19.900 We kind of had to get the information after

00:55:21.720 and the judge did allow the jury to see this there were some rumors that he didn't allow it

00:55:27.460 but he absolutely allowed it and uh you know it could mean a number of things megan i'm not a

00:55:32.300 lawyer so i'll let you guys that's what you think and and i'll weigh in but okay thank you how about

00:55:38.320 there's your cue phil what do we make no i look and i think it's great stuff and and lauren's

00:55:42.520 doing a great job out there she's one of my best sources of information to keep up with that case

00:55:47.880 It's like I said on AM Update this morning, we're trying to speculate, Megan, what these

00:55:52.640 notes or this note and any future notes might mean is kind of like reading tea leaves.

00:55:58.700 You know, we just don't know what the jury is thinking.

00:56:02.540 It might just be one juror who misremembers something and says, hey, I want to see that

00:56:07.700 piece of evidence because I want to get my notes correct.

00:56:11.060 Or it could be a group of them arguing over what something means.

00:56:15.440 And so we really just don't know without more context.

00:56:19.300 And I do think that we'll see additional jury notes because, look, this trial took, what, a month or so or more?

00:56:26.080 But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Phil.

00:56:27.640 Before we get to additional jury notes, I mean, we can glean something off of the fact that they wanted to see the knife with which she allegedly tried to commit suicide, right?

00:56:37.200 Because that's been a point of contention.

00:56:39.700 They've been arguing about whether this was a real suicide attempt or not.

00:56:44.520 The prosecution is basically like those alleged wounds on her neck and wrists were superficial.

00:56:51.420 And, you know, she like suggesting that she didn't really try that hard, that this was somebody who tried to make it look like she wanted to commit suicide, but didn't really want to commit suicide.

00:57:03.140 But my point is, we don't know if it was all the jurors or maybe just one juror wanted to see it.

00:57:09.540 What I mean is we don't know the significance of the request to see that knife.

00:57:14.820 It might be exactly what you just described, Megan, but that's sort of a guess.

00:57:19.520 We're speculating, and it could mean something completely different.

00:57:22.840 We just don't know why any particular juror wanted to see that knife.

00:57:27.520 Is it because they wanted to see, was it long enough?

00:57:30.160 Did they have some other question based on the testimony?

00:57:33.660 But look, this thing's going on for a month, and we're going to have more questions.

00:57:36.740 And once we see the other questions, we might be able to sort of put a pattern to it and say, all right, when you take all these questions and you put them together and see a pattern, maybe we can start then piecing together what the jury might be thinking.

00:57:53.120 I just don't think we should put a lot of weight on one note just a few hours into the deliberations.

00:57:59.780 Well, I agree.

00:58:00.740 And you can – it's sort of a fool's errand to try to guess what a jury note or request means.

00:58:05.740 means. And yet that's our job. How many verdicts have we been sitting on waiting over the course

00:58:11.920 of my 25 years where this is what we do? I would say, you know, I might feel kind of good if I were

00:58:18.540 the prosecution, which made a bigger deal out of that evidence that they wanted to see it,

00:58:22.920 that somebody wanted to actually see that knife and see what they could glean from it. That's

00:58:28.860 more evidence for the prosecution side. I mean, the defense was like, she jumped out of a window

00:58:33.540 head first. What did you think she was trying to do? So the fact that they wanted to actually see

00:58:39.300 the knife might be good. Here's the prosecution talking about the suicide attempt during her

00:58:46.380 closing argument, COP25. She wanted to kill herself, but her natural instinct to live was

00:58:52.780 fighting against that. So she took pills, but you heard the toxicologists, they were all at

00:58:58.720 therapeutic levels or below except the

00:59:00.820 circle which was a little elevated

00:59:02.260 she cut herself

00:59:04.080 but you saw the cuts

00:59:06.140 on the meaty part of her arm

00:59:08.820 horizontally, no arteries

00:59:11.000 no major blood vessels

00:59:12.740 didn't need to be stitched the next

00:59:15.000 day, the one on her neck

00:59:17.140 didn't need to be stitched at all

00:59:18.540 she knew as a nurse those weren't

00:59:21.080 going to kill her

00:59:22.060 but she was trying

00:59:23.580 and then going out of the window

00:59:26.160 12, 13 feet

00:59:28.580 She landed the wrong way and ended up paralyzed on the frozen ground.

00:59:33.500 But, you know, the idea that falling out of a 12-foot window is going to definitely kill you, not necessarily.

00:59:42.360 And so she wanted to.

00:59:43.940 She was trying.

00:59:44.700 She was trying in all these different ways.

00:59:46.920 But she just couldn't get over that third prong, the capability of actually killing herself.

00:59:54.060 And that goes against it being a voice.

00:59:56.360 because if she's compelled to do it, if this voice is making her do it, she would just do it.

01:00:03.380 There would be no fight. There would be no struggle. There would be no resistance to dying.

01:00:09.140 But there was. It's an interesting turn, Lauren, because she's really kind of,

01:00:14.240 you know, the speculation online has definitely been these were not real suicide attempts by

01:00:21.280 Lindsay Clancy, but the prosecutor argued it a different way saying she did want to,

01:00:27.900 but the reason she had to try three different ways, swallowing drugs, using a knife against

01:00:33.800 the throat and the wrists on ineffectively, and then throwing herself at the windows because

01:00:39.740 there was, there wasn't actually the psychotic voice telling her to do anything. There was only

01:00:46.460 her own internal thought and an internal thought can be overcome unlike being quote directed by

01:00:52.980 some psychotic voice who's in control rather than you yes and i think what was interesting is that

01:01:00.060 the prosecution completely flipped their story from their opening statements and i would say

01:01:06.660 throughout maybe halfway through their their case they they had contested that this was not a serious

01:01:13.740 suicide attempt. And in my opinion, it wasn't until their own experts were testifying that

01:01:19.940 Lindsay Clancy had major suicidal ideations. She did want to go through with this. And the defense

01:01:26.480 also kind of used those three methods as their defense and saying she wanted to commit suicide

01:01:32.780 so badly that she tried three different types of ways here. So, you know, listening to them

01:01:39.940 describe this in the closing arguments, I truly didn't give it as much weight only because I felt

01:01:46.120 like I was listening to an entirely different prosecutor, if you will. That's so interesting.

01:01:52.620 Yes, because you've been paying a lot closer attention to it than I have, but I was under

01:01:56.900 the impression that the prosecution had argued or telegraphed at least that this was not a serious

01:02:01.420 suicide attempt. Totally. And the closing, yeah, so it's true. And then the closing message changed

01:02:07.620 a little given the trial testimony. I actually think it's a clever place for the prosecutor

01:02:11.460 to go. It is, to me, actually kind of compelling. If you're being pushed by the other voice,

01:02:18.560 the same powerful voice that made you kill your children, how could it lead you to an

01:02:23.520 ineffective attempt to slit your own wrists or take enough pills to kill you? She's given them

01:02:28.720 something to think about. Phil, at the end, the horrificness, the horror of this crime

01:02:36.200 is really what will rule the day for the prosecutor or not, you know, that either the jury is just

01:02:42.960 going to be so angry about what happened to the children, because there are reports that

01:02:46.920 at least one juror was crying during the prosecution's closing when she talked about

01:02:52.200 the actual murder, like the actual killing of the children. So it all comes down to that,

01:02:58.180 in my view. Here is, I'm going to give a viewer a warning because this is very disturbing,

01:03:03.740 But here is part of the prosecution's closing on the order in which she killed the children and the import of that SOT-26.

01:03:13.500 You know, it was deliberate premeditation because of the way she killed them and the way they died.

01:03:22.200 And the order also shows a rationality, the order she killed them in, because Hoare and Dawson are older.

01:03:30.900 if she had tried to strangle one in front of the other

01:03:34.900 they would have known this is bad

01:03:36.940 and they would have tried to intervene or run and hide

01:03:41.280 and she had a very limited time

01:03:43.300 she didn't have time to try to find a child who ran off and hid

01:03:46.620 so taking Dawson first

01:03:48.320 and moving him to a separate room

01:03:51.140 having Cora stay with Callan and having Dawson go in another room

01:03:55.000 that's rational, that makes sense

01:03:57.680 that's ordered thinking

01:03:58.980 and we didn't show you that post that she made about Dawson being a handful and and not being

01:04:06.460 compliant to show she was a bad mom we showed it to you because it proves she knew that he was a

01:04:13.120 handful she knew that he was less likely to be compliant to just go along she knew that he might

01:04:19.600 struggle and so it made sense rationally to remove him and separate him first and kill him first

01:04:26.840 and she brought him into that room

01:04:29.840 into the office

01:04:31.080 and closed the door

01:04:33.060 and she wrapped that band around his little neck

01:04:36.060 and she squeezed until he was unconscious

01:04:39.560 as the blood's pooling in his face

01:04:43.000 and causing those blood vessels to burst

01:04:45.300 causing him pain

01:04:47.620 and panic and confusion

01:04:50.280 and defense calls Dr. La Posada

01:04:54.240 to say no it wasn't 20 or 30 seconds it was only five or 10 seconds that until he went unconscious

01:05:00.560 i'm sorry how many seconds is it okay for them to have been in pain and panic and confusion

01:05:08.060 how about it wasn't okay for one second for any of those children to feel that

01:05:13.820 yeah yeah she finally got around to um what i think is the strongest part of her case and

01:05:23.600 that part of the closing argument, I thought, was particularly effective. It was also effective

01:05:28.200 when she discussed essentially the ordered thinking, okay, the fact that the defendant

01:05:36.800 was able to sort of control herself enough to not use that knife in a way that would cause a fatal

01:05:45.340 wound. And so I think all those things were important, and I think the prosecution gets

01:05:49.740 credit for that. Now, however, I was not impressed with how they began their closing argument,

01:05:55.880 because what you just heard in that shot, that's the most compelling part. It's about the kids,

01:06:02.120 the children, the pain, the suffering, the torture that those children went through.

01:06:07.260 That should have been the first words out of her mouth when she addressed the jury. Ladies and

01:06:13.140 gentlemen of the jury, this case is about these children. This lady, this defendant sitting right

01:06:19.640 over here. She tortured them. She did all these other things that she could have just basically

01:06:25.060 hammered on that. But what did she do? She started out with an acknowledgement that the defendant was

01:06:32.100 seriously mentally ill, which plays right into, of course, the defense case. So if I had to sort

01:06:39.880 of coach this or fly speck it from the back end, I would say, look, lead with this. Lead with the

01:06:46.340 good stuff. Lead with the stuff that's the most compelling and the most powerful, but don't start

01:06:51.220 your closing argument with basically the defense's theme, which is she's got a serious mental

01:06:57.860 illness. On balance, I give the win for the closings to the prosecution, though, for those

01:07:04.220 reasons. We have a little bit of the beginning of the prosecution's closing. Here it is,

01:07:09.080 Sop 23. Dispute that Lindsay Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill

01:07:15.740 herself. There's no

01:07:17.660 dispute about that. All of the evidence

01:07:19.620 that you've heard, even the experts

01:07:21.580 that the Commonwealth put before you, say

01:07:23.740 that she was suffering from mental

01:07:25.740 illness and she tried to kill herself.

01:07:28.720 That's not the issue

01:07:29.920 in this trial.

01:07:31.540 The issue is whether

01:07:33.480 at the time she killed Cora,

01:07:35.920 Dawson, and Callan,

01:07:37.500 she knew the difference between right and wrong,

01:07:40.060 and whether she could conform

01:07:41.700 her behavior to the requirements

01:07:43.560 of the law.

01:07:45.740 This case is not about our mental health system or how it treats women or what's in the DSM-5 and what's not.

01:07:53.700 That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about an important issue, but an issue that's not on trial here.

01:08:02.760 I mean, I'm more prosecution minded in general, but I would say I see your point, Phil, but I also feel like, you know how much mental illness there is in America?

01:08:12.240 You know, I mean, we talk about it all the time.

01:08:13.700 Like, look at these weird so-called trans guys who are running around threatening women in their spaces.

01:08:19.040 If they're not called she and her, they're mentally ill, these people.

01:08:22.420 But that doesn't mean they get a pass if they murder three children.

01:08:26.540 It is the difference, what she's trying to argue, between mental insanity or illness and legal insanity.

01:08:34.920 and the the the issue here is was she legally insane which does require a proof it requires

01:08:42.180 proof that she did not understand the difference between right and wrong yeah she she she absolutely

01:08:48.580 she's got to make that argument and she did a good job with that argument i'm simply saying

01:08:53.180 that i would not have led with that i would have led with yeah you would have reversed the order

01:08:57.220 i would have led with the kids i got it something emotional just thanks to the law of primacy and

01:09:02.760 recency. The jury's going to remember the first thing they heard in the last thing. I see her

01:09:06.320 strategy, though. She the defense is she was insane. She was driven insane by postpartum

01:09:15.300 psychosis and a medical community that sucked, that just kept piling medication on her and not

01:09:21.580 helping her at every step of the way. Lauren, when she the defense did a good job of documenting

01:09:27.540 the number of times she outreached for some sort of help with her growing mental and sleep,

01:09:36.380 et cetera, problems. Absolutely. And Kevin Reddington did a fantastic job of that throughout

01:09:42.060 the course of this five-week trial. I mean, it's been grueling. And me personally,

01:09:48.000 I go back and forth every day. I go home and I talk to my mom about it and we discuss it because

01:09:54.400 we both believe that mental illness can cause one to do some unspeakable things. But then the

01:10:02.440 minute that you hear about what those kids went through, for me, it all just goes out the window

01:10:08.080 and I forget all about it. And I do feel like that is one reason why the jury is kind of taking

01:10:15.300 so long in a case where it's not a whodunit. It's, again, is she criminally responsible?

01:10:20.440 And, you know, one thing I'll say here in terms of Kevin Reddington, where I said he did a fantastic job over the course of these five weeks, I felt like in the closing arguments, you know, it could have been just simpler for me.

01:10:35.380 You know, you hear about Lindsay Clancy as a mother, everything she did, how everyone said she was incredible.

01:10:41.260 All she wanted in life was to be a mother and she wanted, you know, three kids.

01:10:45.520 It's kind of just like I would have said, would she have done this if she wasn't sick?

01:10:50.020 would she have gone through with this if she wasn't suffering from a mental illness? The answer

01:10:55.360 is no. The psychosis part, I can't speak to that. That is going to be a battle of the experts. And

01:11:01.980 I do believe, again, the only person that truly knows if they were experiencing psychosis or a

01:11:08.380 form of psychosis was Lindsay Clancy. But back to the distractions, though, of the postpartum

01:11:13.900 discussions and these men on the stand, the three Commonwealth experts who are men

01:11:19.400 who do refer to the DSM

01:11:21.820 where there's one paragraph about postpartum.

01:11:24.800 Megan, I don't know about you

01:11:25.980 and maybe this was a distraction,

01:11:27.940 but I'm sitting there rolling my eyes thinking,

01:11:30.580 you guys should check with my husband.

01:11:32.320 Postpartum is not four weeks.

01:11:33.820 I suffered for about a year.

01:11:35.420 He suffered for about a year with my first child.

01:11:37.820 I mean, you know, so there was times

01:11:39.720 that you do get a little angry thinking like,

01:11:42.460 who are these guys to say that, you know,

01:11:45.380 she wasn't suffering?

01:11:46.720 Again, it's gray.

01:11:48.720 It's all a gray area. And Lauren, the jury now, we don't know who's who exactly. Right.

01:11:55.720 We don't know which of the entire panel of 18. I think it was 18. Right. Got chosen down into

01:12:01.260 into the last nine. But we do know the makeup. Right. We know male versus female now.

01:12:06.800 Yes. So the deliberating jury is three men and nine women. And in my opinion, women are harder,

01:12:13.060 though on on other women i i think i mean we saw harvey weinstein all the female jurors

01:12:18.880 voted to acquit him so i just think females are tougher on other females yeah women can be very

01:12:25.440 unsparing with their with their own kind and on an issue like this every woman either has their

01:12:31.840 own child or knows somebody who has a child and a girlfriend and has thoughts about it you know

01:12:37.560 has definitely has their own strong thoughts about it so it's going to be really interesting

01:12:42.380 It is kind of taking a while.

01:12:44.240 Phil, they went out.

01:12:46.360 The deliberations began on Thursday at 12.27.

01:12:50.580 They deliberated, so it was three and a half hours.

01:12:53.840 Then on Friday, they restarted at 9.15 a.m.

01:12:56.480 They ended just before 4 p.m., so that was a full day for them.

01:13:00.120 Now they're back at it.

01:13:00.960 It's 1.20 East Coast time, and they're on the East Coast.

01:13:04.880 They probably just had lunch brought in to them, which is typical for jurors.

01:13:09.120 And what we heard reports of today were that at least two jurors, Phil, were seen wearing pink.

01:13:19.820 Now, that could mean absolutely nothing.

01:13:23.160 Pink is a color that is in some people's clothing.

01:13:25.480 And they put it on and they wear it out around the world.

01:13:28.600 And a lot of our listeners are wearing it right now.

01:13:30.900 However, pink has taken on significance in this case because it's the color worn by Lindsay Clancy supporters

01:13:37.420 outside the courthouse and inside the courtroom day after day after day. And it is, I mean,

01:13:43.800 and these jurors haven't been sequestered, Phil. No. So you tell me whether at least two jurors

01:13:48.920 are trying to send a message about where they stand. I suppose anything's possible, but I'm

01:13:52.720 hesitant to put a whole lot of weight to that without knowing, you know, for sure. But because

01:14:00.140 as you point out, that's a common color that's in a lot of people's wardrobes. But I will say this,

01:14:06.180 The fact that there are nine women on that jury tells me that at least one, if not a handful or more of them, can at least relate to the defense position about mental illness and postpartum for all the reasons that you and Lauren were just talking about.

01:14:26.900 But not only that, you know, my wife and all the other women that I encounter in my local community who want to ask me about this trial, every single one of them identifies with the issue of postpartum and the fact that mental health providers are not very good at dealing with it sort of as a general rule.

01:14:47.340 So whether or not they they convict her, I don't know. But I do know that there's going to be at least some of them on that jury that will identify with her, will relate to her for the problems that she had with postpartum.

01:15:02.140 And if it is enough, then she could be looking at at least a hung jury, if not a not guilty by reason of insanity.

01:15:11.360 Let me tell you why.

01:15:12.920 Because in the state of Massachusetts, the burden is on the prosecutor to disprove the defense of not guilty by reason of insanity.

01:15:24.620 Once these issues have come up in the case, they've got to go back and disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:15:30.680 So she actually gets sort of a shove out of the starting gate because of the way that the law is written there in Massachusetts.

01:15:40.440 Yeah, I know that it is wacky how you have to disprove it as opposed to once the defense raises it.

01:15:46.040 That's something for them to prove.

01:15:47.420 But the prosecution has all the burden of proof here entirely.

01:15:51.280 What do you make of this business, Lauren, of the jurors?

01:15:53.440 The report is from someone inside the courthouse that there is a woman wearing pink jean shorts today and a juror, another juror, who is wearing a pink sweater.

01:16:09.600 And on top of that, I mean, you've been watching the jury in general when they come in for the question.

01:16:14.880 When they come in, they have to show up in the courtroom in the morning before they then retire to deliberate.

01:16:20.160 But can anything be gleaned?

01:16:22.000 What have you seen?

01:16:22.620 Well, this morning, I was told by another reporter because I did not notice the pink

01:16:28.800 from where I was sitting. But yes, one female juror in her 50s, I want to guess, was wearing

01:16:34.540 a pink sweater, light pink sweater. And then another juror in maybe mid 40s female was wearing

01:16:40.780 pink capri pants. I think it really could be anything. I thought all the jurors looked

01:16:46.120 very nice today. There was a man that I noticed who doesn't typically get dressed up. He did

01:16:51.860 have a collared shirt on. It was tucked in. Another juror was wearing a tie, but he has

01:16:56.540 worn a tie before. But I mean, again, I thought they looked nice. And that always gives me a

01:17:01.440 little bit of hope that maybe a verdict is coming. And I felt like there was urgency in the hallway

01:17:07.400 after we walked out of the gallery, but that quickly dissipated. I mean, Kevin Reddington

01:17:13.380 kind of walked out with his private investigator. He's pacing. No one seemed to bother him for a

01:17:19.280 while until he just started kind of engaging with the media and the public one by one before taking

01:17:24.680 a walk. But it's been very tough this morning. And my prediction is that they're going to send

01:17:29.860 a note by the afternoon, possibly. I don't know if it's going to be a question. I was kind of

01:17:34.460 thinking that they were going to say that they all couldn't agree just because it's been, again,

01:17:39.560 over 10 hours and it's not a question of if she did it. So I do believe that, again, this jury,

01:17:46.720 although some of the females are showing emotion there was no one that burst into tears by the way

01:17:51.400 um during the closing there was a woman that wiped her eyes she was teary there was another woman who

01:17:55.920 looked down appeared to just be very very sad but um there was no audible crying but they were very

01:18:02.840 emotional very emotional i will say that so you lauren when you were saying he would have preferred

01:18:09.900 that um kevin reddington just got up there and kept it very simple like obviously she would not

01:18:16.100 have harmed her children if she hadn't been mentally ill if she had been well served by

01:18:20.120 the medical community we can all agree to that you know but he he did get criticized online for

01:18:24.720 being too meandering um how would you sum up what the criticisms were of what he did instead of what

01:18:31.320 you're saying i mean he he it wasn't cohesive i guess and i felt like throughout the course

01:18:37.420 of of the defense's line of questioning and obviously the trial it was very very much centered

01:18:43.220 around mental health.

01:18:45.160 And I thought that he brought up

01:18:47.680 the lack of police investigation

01:18:49.660 quite frequently during the closings

01:18:52.620 and where that is very important

01:18:54.400 to Massachusetts residents.

01:18:56.280 I mean, I think they do have a distrust

01:18:58.500 for the police at this point,

01:19:00.300 you know, between some of the last couple

01:19:02.340 of high profile cases,

01:19:03.960 I guess Karen Reed, Sandra Birchmore,

01:19:06.020 and another local reporter

01:19:07.360 pointed this out to me actually,

01:19:08.780 because I was like,

01:19:09.740 why all of a sudden is he spending

01:19:11.060 so much time on police again

01:19:12.440 when it hasn't really been brought up for a while.

01:19:14.800 But I just felt like one of the defense attorneys

01:19:18.300 I really enjoy listening to his closings

01:19:20.420 is Mark Magnifolo.

01:19:22.040 He is a very-

01:19:23.480 Yeah, we know him.

01:19:24.040 Yeah, he's very common sense

01:19:25.600 and he just breaks it down for someone like me

01:19:27.640 who was a lay person.

01:19:28.720 I'm a reporter.

01:19:29.720 You know, for Diddy, he's like,

01:19:31.440 thank God the feds got all that baby oil off the street.

01:19:34.160 Oh my gosh, I'm so happy.

01:19:35.620 Like it made everybody laugh

01:19:36.860 and it pointed out how ridiculous a lot of it was.

01:19:39.600 So, you know, if I was Reddington,

01:19:41.420 And I just would have maybe talked to the jurors, not in all of that, you know, the medical terms and not in the investigative terms, just simply, you know, everything we know about Lindsay, would she have done this if she wasn't sick?

01:19:55.760 And that's it, you know?

01:19:57.080 When I talked to Agnifilo about the NXIVM case, that cult that turned out to be like a sex cult up in my hometown of Albany, New York, he told me, you know, on air, but in a taped piece I did at the time, because the women were being branded with his initials by their subset of the Keith Raniere sex cult, which is part of this NXIVM cult.

01:20:20.540 and um i asked him you know this is your client he's branding women with his initials what what

01:20:25.780 the hell right and he said no no no he said this is new york we don't do cults we don't do brand

01:20:31.960 like if they got the brands they did it because they were empowered like that's what that's what

01:20:35.180 women in in new york do they don't you know it was to your point it didn't work in the end but

01:20:41.940 it was a very clear line that you could take away like okay i get it i understand what the defense

01:20:48.280 Instead, we got examples like this, Bill.

01:20:51.200 I'll play a little bit of him.

01:20:52.820 Sot 18, Kevin Reddington.

01:20:55.800 Whether or not Lindsay is guilty.

01:21:00.920 You're under reasonable doubt, as his honor instructed you and will instruct you, what that means.

01:21:09.240 that standard of proof that we as citizens in this country are so blessed to have proof beyond

01:21:18.920 a reasonable doubt before the government charges any citizen with a crime. I don't care how many

01:21:27.500 cops you have in here, how many DAs are sitting here, how many people are sitting in the front

01:21:31.440 row, and they're all going to sit there and be proud of this prosecution. I told you in the

01:21:36.620 opening statement that this is a prosecution that has ripped the soul out of this girl.

01:21:44.120 This is what they had. This happy family picture is their family.

01:21:58.020 How does now it's going to be a picture of her in her hospital bed.

01:22:01.880 Yes. Turn into this.

01:22:10.600 How? Because of the damn medicine and the lousy medical care that she got.

01:22:19.360 Yeah. OK, I got to say that the prosecution has ripped the soul out of, quote, this girl.

01:22:27.220 It was a lot of things, but it wasn't the prosecution that made her strangle her three children to death.

01:22:35.540 No, and you must have read my ex-posts because I was one of the people that said, look, this was a meandering closing argument.

01:22:46.520 This was sort of a – it's like he was just phoning it in like he was really tired and he just wanted to get it over with, but it didn't seem to have any organization to it.

01:22:55.760 But, you know, I think it was a bad idea to use those photographs that we just showed in that site.

01:23:02.780 And I also think it was a terrible idea to say it's the prosecution that ripped the soul out of Lindsay Clancy.

01:23:08.940 Because what that sends me to thinking about, and I know the jurors are probably the same way, that sent me thinking about the kids who literally had their souls ripped away from them.

01:23:19.080 And so that's what it turned me to.

01:23:21.720 I think it was a little weak.

01:23:23.380 I think there's a lot more that could have been done.

01:23:25.760 He could have basically said, look, the judge has instructed you or will instruct you this

01:23:31.200 and give the exact instruction and say, this is how you apply the testimony that you've

01:23:37.880 heard from the experts to the judge's instruction.

01:23:41.140 And this is why you have no other choice but to find her not guilty by reason of insanity.

01:23:46.060 And by the way, the judge's instructions, ladies and gentlemen, also tell you that when

01:23:51.120 you have a reasonable doubt, it is your duty to acquit.

01:23:54.640 So you are following the law just as much as anybody else.

01:23:59.640 If you follow the judge's instructions and you shall find her not guilty, you're following the law.

01:24:06.400 And he could have basically made that point a little bit stronger and more clearly.

01:24:11.160 I think it lacked direction.

01:24:12.740 I think it lacked organization.

01:24:14.640 I really just didn't know where he was going from one minute to the next.

01:24:17.860 But hearing him say that the prosecution took the soul out of Lindsey Clancy, I thought that was a misstep, a big one.

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01:28:25.580 I do want to play what he said on the actual killings and the exercise bands again for the

01:28:32.280 for the audience. Just know that it's when I think exercise bands, I think about those stretchy,

01:28:38.260 long rectangular bands that, you know, are used after you have physical therapy or something

01:28:45.020 like that. But these were cords that look more like a bungee cord, like a, like almost like a

01:28:50.380 tight cord or rope. To me, it, it matters. It makes a difference. I don't know why, but it just

01:28:56.300 changed the visual for me. So here's Kevin Reddington addressing the exercise bands and

01:29:01.000 sat 22b remember the argument with the bands she took the bands out of the bag put the gloves on

01:29:13.940 talks to dr lapisata on the zoom slams the bands down out of the paper bag does the movement of

01:29:25.000 the bands and yells at Lappets

01:29:26.860 and says

01:29:27.580 wrapped. They were just wrapped.

01:29:31.100 They weren't knotted

01:29:31.860 because you gotta get

01:29:34.800 Lindsay

01:29:36.340 tightening the band, right?

01:29:39.880 You gotta hold it.

01:29:41.500 You gotta hold it for a minute.

01:29:44.160 You gotta hold it for

01:29:45.020 two minutes, three minutes,

01:29:48.040 four minutes.

01:29:49.820 That's why she

01:29:50.900 needed the bands not

01:29:52.840 knotted.

01:29:55.000 What did Patrick Clancy testify to?

01:29:57.660 You heard his testimony.

01:30:00.500 He indicated clearly, unequivocally,

01:30:05.420 that they were knotted around the necks of those children.

01:30:10.760 To the point where he had to struggle.

01:30:13.420 He struggled to get it off of Dawson's, over his head.

01:30:19.860 And a police officer saw through the window.

01:30:23.260 This is horrific stuff.

01:30:25.000 But it's subjective, and it shows the manipulation.

01:30:30.600 This government, this prosecution is a mess.

01:30:36.020 Oh, I mean, what a mess.

01:30:39.520 Can I just say something?

01:30:40.280 Because I know Laura has something to say on this, too.

01:30:43.540 But as the defense lawyer, that's not the visual that I would want to be painting very clearly for the jury

01:30:52.020 when I'm supposed to be making my closing argument,

01:30:54.760 making them focus on my expert

01:30:57.440 who said she could not conform her actions to the law

01:31:01.880 because of her mental illness.

01:31:03.640 I would not have been recreating the crime

01:31:05.720 right there in front of them.

01:31:07.680 Yeah.

01:31:08.440 No, in the most horrific way

01:31:10.140 where even the stronger husband

01:31:12.280 couldn't get the bans undone, Lauren.

01:31:15.480 I just think that he was also, again,

01:31:17.900 trying to allude to the fact

01:31:19.340 that the police did not do

01:31:20.700 a thorough enough investigation and they just quote took patrick clancy's word for everything

01:31:26.220 i think he was trying to get at that although he didn't i know although he didn't say that

01:31:31.160 this is not a whodunit exactly and and again that's why i'm i'm thinking to myself you know

01:31:36.640 the jury is hopefully not seeing these tiktok videos patrick did it patrick clancy did it you

01:31:43.420 know so i'm wondering you think he was he was offering some uh some nuggets in case one of

01:31:49.240 those people's on the jury. I couldn't figure it out except for the fact that he was he was trying

01:31:53.900 to allude that the police didn't do their jobs. And if they did, they you know, they they would

01:31:58.940 have known conclusively if the bans were not. And they would have taken photos. They would have

01:32:03.320 ran inside and told Patrick Clancy to stop because they could allegedly hear him on the 911 call or

01:32:08.660 hear him from outside. So I felt that was a little bit confusing. And I'm sitting there again saying,

01:32:13.980 well, the jury is hopefully not seeing what's going on on social media. So how are they going

01:32:18.280 to put this together oh that is very interesting that's clever and you're probably right there

01:32:24.200 because phil why wouldn't he what all you need is one just one juror who's persuaded by the online

01:32:31.680 theories and it's like it was if that's what he was up to it was a clever way of nodding to all

01:32:38.320 that nonsense without drawing an objection or being too explicit in front of the prosecution

01:32:43.480 or the court. Well, if he was thinking along those terms, and if that's what he was up to,

01:32:50.640 maybe it would be a little creative, but I don't think that's what he was doing because the whole

01:32:55.500 thing seemed to be just off the cuff stream of consciousness. I don't think he planned.

01:33:00.860 We're giving him two ins credit. I don't think he planned this whole thing out because if he did,

01:33:05.460 he would not have been standing there in front of the jury, essentially recreating the deaths of

01:33:10.500 these kids so that they can visualize it. He only had an hour, guys. He had one hour that the judge

01:33:15.940 gave him. So how many minutes do you spend, if you're the defense lawyer, recreating the killings

01:33:22.700 for the jury? You could spend that time talking about your client's mental illness, mental health,

01:33:28.840 explaining to them why your witnesses made the most sense and why the jury has to follow the

01:33:35.520 judge's instructions and why because they have a reasonable doubt they shall find her not guilty

01:33:41.920 that's what he should have been yeah i mean he's definitely he's got a story to tell and he told it

01:33:46.840 in his cross examinations lauren it's like this this was a good mother by all accounts never an

01:33:51.760 abusive mother she was loving she was attentive she was a productive citizen she had her third

01:33:57.540 baby things started to go south her sleep went south and her problems started to mount psychologically

01:34:03.760 she didn't ignore it. She reached out for help. You had the terrible Dr. Tafts who only saw her

01:34:09.660 via Zoom. That's my opinion. This doctor wasn't good and was fresh out of residency, didn't know

01:34:15.380 her ass from her elbow, which is basically what he was arguing and didn't take the time to actually

01:34:20.240 figure out what was happening with Lindsay Clancy. When Lindsay would go back to this doctor or

01:34:24.640 another saying, I have mounting complaints. It's not working for me. I feel dead inside,

01:34:29.060 They didn't help her. She reached out to her mother. She said, I need help. I'm not well.

01:34:34.500 She reached out to her husband. She told them both. I have thoughts of harming myself and I

01:34:39.160 have thoughts of harming the children. She told them she wasn't trying to keep it a secret. She

01:34:42.940 was jumping up and down. This is how I would argue it. Asking for everyone from family,

01:34:48.060 friends to medical professionals, please help me. I'm worried. And no one around her thought

01:34:54.840 she couldn't be alone with the children. They knew this loving person. Even she didn't think

01:35:00.500 she couldn't be alone with the children. She wasn't shy about saying things that were damaging

01:35:03.980 to her, made her look terrible until she recognized she couldn't because that terrible

01:35:10.960 day would come. And he described it as one of her best days ever. There's not evidence on the day

01:35:16.520 she killed them that, this is how I would argue it, that she saw it coming or that anybody could

01:35:22.320 have seen it coming. She was there coloring with the child. She went to a wellness visit for Cora.

01:35:27.040 She was looking to help Cora with, you know, not being able to go to the bathroom. Like this is

01:35:31.360 not somebody who seemed like she's planning the child's death. This is what you could do this in

01:35:36.720 20 minutes up and down. It's the medical system. It's not her. This is not somebody who we should

01:35:42.780 be treating like a serial killer, throwing her in jail and locking her up forever. Now I could

01:35:48.300 argue it even more powerfully on the other side, but that's how I would have done it had I been

01:35:52.180 Kevin Reddington, Lauren. And I think something clear like that would be very easy for jurors to

01:35:56.820 latch on to because we can all see ourselves maybe not doing this, but like having mental

01:36:01.300 health struggles and having a medical system that sucks. Absolutely. I think you just nailed it. And

01:36:07.420 we heard the term malingering a lot. And this is from the prosecution. She was malingering.

01:36:12.760 She was trying to get all these different types of medications on the fly when actually the

01:36:18.780 defense's argument was in fact the opposite, that at times she would minimize her symptoms because

01:36:24.800 she thought people could hear her thoughts and that if they heard her thoughts, CPS would come

01:36:30.180 and take her kids away. And then in turn, you have the prosecution who took that argument,

01:36:35.180 flipped it upside down and said, actually, the fact that she's thinking this means

01:36:38.700 she's thinking rationally and clearly. And something else I would have said if I were

01:36:43.020 Reddington, is the fact that every single Commonwealth witness, or I should say two

01:36:48.240 out of three besides Dr. Avra Mack, they did diagnose Lindsay Clancy with bipolar two.

01:36:54.480 In Lindsay Clancy's civil suit, she alleges that her providers did not acknowledge or did not

01:37:01.320 diagnose her with this or acknowledge that she could possibly be bipolar. Instead, they were

01:37:06.660 just prescribing these SSRIs. And one of the Commonwealth experts even said during his

01:37:11.480 testimony, I would be careful prescribing someone who's bipolar an SSRI because it can cause

01:37:17.700 hallucinations, not in every case, of course, but at times. And I just, I didn't see that

01:37:23.000 stressed enough. I just felt like there were certain arguments you could use that weren't

01:37:28.900 really used, but I also find it, and I think this term is going to come, I don't want to come across

01:37:33.400 insensitive at all because this is a devastating trial, but I found elements of it very interesting

01:37:39.420 because of the way each side was able to flip it,

01:37:42.940 flip each side's argument, I guess,

01:37:44.580 which is obviously their job.

01:37:46.760 But in this case specifically, I was like, wow,

01:37:49.340 I didn't think of it like that.

01:37:50.460 Okay, I didn't think of it like that.

01:37:52.160 This gives me a lot to weigh.

01:37:54.940 And he, well, he didn't have,

01:37:57.660 and the truth is it is not a whodunit.

01:38:00.360 And even Kevin Reddington is admitting

01:38:02.800 that it wasn't Patrick Clancy, it was Lindsey Clancy.

01:38:07.320 But he did have a villain.

01:38:08.900 He could and did try to point to, though not as effectively as possible, which is the medical system, that she was failed at every turn by medical doctors who were there to help her.

01:38:18.660 And I will say, especially when you've got the potential of nine female jurors, look, I'm not a soapbox feminist.

01:38:25.300 I'm not a feminist at all, and my audience knows that.

01:38:28.200 But I don't know a woman who will say, I've had amazing medical care from a system that is built around women's issues.

01:38:36.380 No, it's not true.

01:38:37.620 every woman I know feels like the system is built to take care of men and women are add-ons

01:38:45.040 and children are add-ons too, by the way, they're treated as tiny little adults by too many.

01:38:50.340 And there's been real frustration, especially of, you know, women around childbearing and all of

01:38:56.440 that, if they don't get a female doctor, but around menopause as well, that there's not enough

01:39:01.420 thought by the whole community about what this does to women. And like the test, women are not

01:39:07.620 just men with vaginas. They have a whole different complex system. So anyway, so I think that's

01:39:14.340 something you could have sold, could have sold to a jury that wound up having nine minutes,

01:39:18.460 nine women on it. Phil, I got to ask you about the manslaughter charge, which was allowed.

01:39:25.280 The judge is allowing, did allow and has now charged the jury on not just first degree murder,

01:39:31.420 but second degree murder and manslaughter.

01:39:34.920 So if she, in order to get first degree,

01:39:38.840 you have to prove premeditation and malice.

01:39:42.600 You've got to prove for second degree,

01:39:45.500 deliberate, deliberate murder,

01:39:48.820 but doesn't have to have been planned.

01:39:50.960 And on manslaughter,

01:39:52.540 you have to prove that it's an unlawful killing,

01:39:55.520 but you don't have to prove

01:39:57.080 that she had the intent to cause harm.

01:39:59.720 So getting manslaughter on there seems like a great thing for the defense.

01:40:06.060 And you can argue this both ways, right?

01:40:07.500 Because if you've got a very strong first-degree murder charge as the prosecution, that's the only charge you want, and you don't want manslaughter offered as an alternative.

01:40:17.740 But the prosecution's alternative here is not really necessarily second-degree or manslaughter.

01:40:22.740 It's does she go to the mental facility versus the jail?

01:40:26.320 So what do you make of the addition?

01:40:27.140 she's convicted of manslaughter, then presumably she's going to go to prison for as long as the

01:40:31.520 judge can, can send her there because you've got three, three, three deaths by manslaughter.

01:40:36.880 I don't think, I just don't see how manslaughter really fits the facts of this case. I don't see

01:40:43.340 anything like, you know, sudden provocation. I, to me, it was a bit of a head scratcher why it

01:40:49.580 came in. And honestly, if, if I'm the defense I really don't want it to come in because I want

01:40:56.640 the jury to think about the judge's instruction on not guilty by reason. The judge told them

01:41:03.060 that if they go with NGRI, she's not getting out. She's going to stay in custody essentially of a

01:41:10.360 mental health facility. She's going to be locked up in a essentially an insane asylum, right? And

01:41:16.400 at least until she can be safely released back into the public at some point indefinitely out

01:41:23.400 into the future. She could be locked up in a mental hospital for much longer than she could

01:41:27.960 serve in a prison. So I would have told the jury to focus on that. The judge told you that you're,

01:41:33.940 you know, you're not letting her go free. Okay. If you find her not guilty by reason and sanity,

01:41:38.740 you're sending her to a treatment facility for an indefinite period of time, perhaps the rest

01:41:43.440 of her life. Yeah. But he can't really, like, he doesn't know how long she'd be going to a mental

01:41:47.880 told the jury that she could be there for a year yeah and i i know i'm just saying like she could

01:41:53.480 be right out and you know the um jennifer coffin coffin daffer she's on x she's great uh she's

01:42:00.940 former fbi she did this amazing post and we'll get into it later when the verdict comes down but

01:42:05.360 she said in this post uh don't forget hold on a second i can't read my own writing here um

01:42:11.740 she said do not forget the case of constant fisher have you guys heard about this this is

01:42:17.140 so disturbing. Constant Fisher on March 8th, 1954 was a 24 year old housewife who drowned her first

01:42:25.580 three children ages six, four and 11. So basically the same as these three kids in a bathtub out in

01:42:32.820 Fairfield, Maine. Her husband returned home from work and found this hideous situation. And this

01:42:39.400 woman, Constance Fisher, had actually also then tried to kill herself. She was found not guilty.

01:42:47.420 She argued that she was a paranoid schizophrenic at trial, and she was actually sent to a medical

01:42:55.360 facility. Within a year of her internment, she started to show signs of improvement.

01:42:59.680 Five years after that, she was released. She went back to her husband, Carl. They started a new

01:43:05.420 family in 1960 she gave birth to her fourth baby kathleen followed in 62 by michael 1965 by natalie

01:43:11.940 so she had three more kids with carl after the baby's birth of the youngest she started to

01:43:17.200 unravel immobilized by blue moods and worries began to hear voices and on june 30th 1966

01:43:24.140 she drowned those three children she was deemed unto unable to fit uh unfit to stand trial like

01:43:32.380 This is the worry, Lauren. This is, this is what terrifies people about the mental facility

01:43:37.160 possibility. I don't even know what to say to that. That's one of the worst things I've ever

01:43:42.580 heard. I mean, I, that's, it's unspeakable. And, and again, I, I don't know what the right answer

01:43:49.420 here is, Megan. I, I, I mean, manslaughter, if she's convicted of manslaughter, I think you said

01:43:55.540 she could be out sooner than if she is, you know, is found not guilty by reason of insanity where

01:44:01.540 she's, you know, committed to an institution. So I don't know what what they are thinking at this

01:44:07.460 point. It's it could be anything. But it's the reason that a case like that is the reason this

01:44:13.460 judge can't reassure the jury of too much if they find her not guilty by reason of insanity. We

01:44:19.360 God forbid we wind up with another Constance Fisher. Thank you both so much. We're going to

01:44:25.180 stay on this. I'm sure we'll see you later if we get a verdict. All the best. And tomorrow we'll

01:44:29.060 have a Kelly's court on this and some other interesting legal cases percolating, including

01:44:33.360 Megan and Harry. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - August 31, 2026

Michelle Obama Trashes Motherhood, and Lindsay Clancy Trial Closing Arguments Breakdown, with Jesse Kelly, Phil Holloway and Lauren Conlin ｜ Ep. 1388

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