The Megyn Kelly Show - Lindsay Clancy ＂Postpartum Psychosis＂ Defense, Perez Hilton Legal Questions, and NEW Nolan Wells Timeline, with MK True Crime Hosts ｜ Ep. 1377

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00:00:30.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.260 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.700 Kelly Skort is back in session with several cases making headlines right now.

00:00:49.840 A major revelation in the mysterious death of 18-year-old Nolan Wells in Mississippi.

00:00:54.980 An attorney representing three of Nolan's friends says that two credible people he called, quote, reliable and credible reported seeing Nolan on the island at 6 p.m.

00:01:09.340 Now, keep in mind that the the people who are just hurling accusations around at poor

00:01:16.460 Nolan's friends who appear to have loved and cared about him and went out to this island

00:01:21.840 with him on a boat on July 4th in Mississippi are claiming that they may have killed Nolan

00:01:29.980 at some point around three thirty to four thirty.

00:01:34.020 They were supposed to take him back on their boat and they allegedly killed him on the

00:01:38.080 boat because there's some voicemail in which it sounds like somebody says something about the

00:01:43.140 word dead. It's completely unsupported. It is literally made up by some activist who claimed

00:01:49.840 she heard a distress call from the boat and heard those admissions. We all heard the distress call

00:01:56.180 and did not hear those admissions. And the person who claims to have verbated that distress call

00:02:01.720 was calling these kids murderers before she ever went through her process so these kids are on the

00:02:09.000 wrong end of an angry online mob and now we're getting more and more actual evidence in like

00:02:17.260 two adult reportedly reliable incredible witnesses who say nolan was still on horn island for hours

00:02:26.240 after the boys who have been villainized left, that they saw him at 6 p.m.

00:02:33.860 And I can tell you from my own independent reporting, I have been told the same.

00:02:39.320 So this is going to be in the hands of investigators.

00:02:43.900 And we'll see what the crazed online lunatics do with this.

00:02:47.160 I mean, who really cares?

00:02:48.100 As you know, it's really not my business to get into conspiracy theories online.

00:02:52.640 my business is to tell you what the facts show and let you know what's true without having to

00:02:59.360 or trying to debunk every you know tinfoil hat theory that comes up on any case on this show

00:03:07.280 it's just not what we're going to do we're going to stick with actual lawyers professionals

00:03:10.800 and evidence and the evidence right now is looking very much like nolan stayed behind

00:03:16.620 just as his friends said and that he was alive and walking around horn island as late as 6 p.m

00:03:24.320 july 4th uh ben crump's team is the one that has been ginning up a lot of the hate for nolan's

00:03:31.440 friends without any support uh now there's a report that they have not handed over nolan wells's

00:03:37.400 cell phone to investigators that nolan's mother has it um perhaps crump's team is in possession

00:03:44.260 of it. I don't know. They're working together. She hired the wrong person. And they're dodging

00:03:49.060 our calls for him to weigh in on whether the reporting is true or not. Do you have the phone

00:03:52.860 or don't you? Very simple question. Let us know. So there is a lot going on in the news today

00:04:01.380 on this case and many others. There's stuff about Dr. Anthony Fauci in the news. I mean,

00:04:06.820 this is like a disturbing report about him. And some people want him now tried. We'll get to that

00:04:11.980 if we have time today. But there's a lot to go over with our Kelly's Court panel, beginning

00:04:17.740 with the trial of Lindsay Clancy. And this is the case on which we are likely to spend the most

00:04:22.080 time today. Have you heard about this case? This has sparked some insane conspiracy theories

00:04:28.120 online. But again, it's not about those. It's about this mother who killed her three children.

00:04:35.940 She admits it. It's so disturbing. I've been trying to avoid the case, to be honest with you,

00:04:40.660 Because it's just like, oh my God, you know, I have three children and I'm sure a lot of

00:04:44.220 you moms out there don't really want to spend a ton of time with a woman who we know did

00:04:49.580 this, but the testimony has been very compelling and now we're getting down to it.

00:04:55.160 So we decided to take it on responsibly here today.

00:04:57.820 Her lawyers are not arguing that she's innocent.

00:05:00.680 They're arguing that she should not be held criminally responsible because they say she

00:05:04.820 was suffering from postpartum psychosis.

00:05:07.280 the prosecution says no that's a dodge and that there's they argue that there's not evidence for

00:05:14.560 actual psycho psychosis depression sure but they dispute that there was evidence of this

00:05:21.400 postpartum psychosis and they call the murders deliberate and calculated and we are going to get

00:05:26.960 into what the testimony has been as this trial proceeds joining me now matt murphy and mark

00:05:32.880 Garagos. They are the hosts of In the Well and Dave Ehrenberg too. He's host of the MK True Crime

00:05:37.240 show. All of these shows can be found on the MK True Crime YouTube channel and all podcast

00:05:41.500 platforms. Just search in MK True Crime wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe and you will

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00:06:49.420 Guys, welcome. Great to see you all. So this case is just dark. It's dark, but it's

00:06:56.020 fascinating. Let's be honest. I mean, the TikTok of the husband going home and finding out what

00:07:05.940 happened to his family is just chilling. And what you have now, after this husband, Patrick, goes

00:07:13.140 home, he's spent the day with his wife, Lindsay. He's been talking to her. They've been texting.

00:07:19.040 He's seen his children who are all in the young single digits. And he knows that she's been

00:07:24.900 depressed. He knows that she's been inpatient for five days in the not too distant past,

00:07:28.780 but she seems, he says, to be having a good day. In fact, he describes this as one of her best days

00:07:33.680 in recent weeks. It does not seem to have any indication that his wife is thinking about

00:07:39.080 killing their three children this evening. She sends him out to the store to go get

00:07:44.720 some sort of like a colonic or diarrhea, whatever, some sort of a laxative for their

00:07:53.100 six-year-old. He goes to the CVS. He can't find it. He calls in. She redirects him. Then he goes

00:08:00.120 by a restaurant at the wife's instruction, too. They had called in a meal for the two adults,

00:08:07.260 picks it up, and comes home. He finds his wife, what he thinks is dying, and probably she would

00:08:13.360 have been dead had he not found her, on the front lawn having jumped and with some sort of red marks

00:08:20.860 on her neck and her wrists though later they were described as superficial and she tells him I try

00:08:26.640 to kill myself he stays with her he thinks this is the emergency stays with her four or five minutes

00:08:32.400 he calls 9-1-1 and then he says where are the children she says in the basement so he knew that

00:08:38.140 while he was waiting with her for the four minutes and when the paramedics arrive he goes to the

00:08:42.680 basement to check on his children still not realizing that they've been killed and then

00:08:47.960 in a 911 call that they played in the courtroom, but they did not release for obvious reasons too

00:08:54.580 dark, too distressing. You can hear his exchange with the 911 operator where he calls out that his

00:09:05.300 children have been killed too, and that she's apparently taken some sort of exercise bans

00:09:10.960 and use them to strangle his children.

00:09:15.260 I'm just looking for it. 0.99

00:09:16.500 Here it is.

00:09:17.340 This is via a reporter for the Patriot Ledger newspaper

00:09:21.480 in Massachusetts who is there.

00:09:24.300 His name is Peter Blandino.

00:09:25.740 He reports that the call goes as follows.

00:09:28.700 My wife tried to commit suicide.

00:09:30.740 Stay awake, he says to Lindsay on the tape.

00:09:33.420 She jumped out of the window, he tells the operator.

00:09:35.480 She's breathing.

00:09:36.480 Where are the kids?

00:09:37.820 He can be heard saying on the recording.

00:09:39.960 It's not really bleeding, it's just an open wound, Patrick says about his wife,

00:09:43.680 describing the cuts on Lindsay's wrist and neck.

00:09:46.000 Is there something on your neck, Lindsay, he asks.

00:09:49.260 Lindsay can be heard in the background, but not distinctly.

00:09:51.980 Say my name, Patrick instructs her, as the dispatcher tells him not to move her.

00:09:56.360 Sirens are then heard approaching.

00:09:58.160 I need you to stay with her, I have to go check on my kids, he says, as the paramedics arrive.

00:10:02.660 His footsteps through the house can be heard.

00:10:05.820 Oh no, he screams, followed by desperate shrieks.

00:10:08.380 what are you screaming about now the dispatcher asks oh my god Patrick shouts now crying the

00:10:14.920 basement I need help Patrick screams her heart rending reports Peter Blondino of the Patriot

00:10:20.520 Ledger she killed the kids oh my god primal cries and screams follow and heavy breathing 0.99

00:10:27.560 oh shit says the dispatcher it's so dark and just replete with despair 0.99

00:10:38.140 But the question in this case, Matt Murphy, is what is the level of culpability for this 0.99

00:10:44.180 clearly disturbed, quote unquote, mother?

00:10:49.400 You know, there's no question that she's not going to be turned out onto the street to 1.00

00:10:52.940 walk free and reproduce again. 0.99

00:10:55.280 The question is basically what kind of facility she's going to get locked up in, a jail or 1.00

00:10:59.920 a mental health one.

00:11:01.140 If it's the latter, she has at least the chance of getting out.

00:11:03.720 And it all seems to come down to whether the jury will buy that she was suffering from psychosis, this mental illness that can affect a very small percentage of moms after they give birth or not.

00:11:19.900 Right. Well, I know Dave and Mark and I have all sort of been nerding out on this one, Megan, because in the mental health world of homicide, this is a very interesting case.

00:11:30.200 Postpartum depression is relatively common, and it's a real thing, and so is postpartum psychosis, but it's a lot more rare.

00:11:39.660 And you'll notice, I think a lot of people probably heard the term psychosis attached to postpartum for the first time.

00:11:46.560 That is because, fortunately, it's rare.

00:11:48.520 But essentially, you need a break from reality and depression, even severe depression.

00:11:54.920 A person can still suffer from that. 0.86

00:11:57.180 They can be mentally ill.

00:11:58.280 This is the prosecution's point. 0.64

00:12:00.200 You can still suffer from all of those things.

00:12:03.020 You can be depressed and still be legally responsible for your actions.

00:12:07.700 Psychosis means she has a break from reality and essentially doesn't know what she's doing.

00:12:12.840 Massachusetts uses what's known as a modified McNaughton rule where the person must substantially

00:12:19.700 appreciate, Mark and I were talking about this the other day, whatever that means, the

00:12:24.440 wrongfulness of their actions.

00:12:27.020 It's a it's a lower standard, I think, for the defense, although the the prosecution bears the burden throughout.

00:12:34.780 I think also another thing, Megan, is you've got her in a wheelchair, which is going to be there.

00:12:41.220 There's going to be from her jump. Yeah, from the jump.

00:12:44.480 And apparently that's real. She is she's going to be paralyzed for the rest of her life.

00:12:48.780 I think also, interestingly on this, Megan, she is very well defended by this defense lawyer.

00:12:54.280 I've been impressed by his presentation.

00:12:58.980 And then the biggest question is-

00:13:00.880 Kevin Reddington.

00:13:02.060 Yeah, she might go to jail 1.00

00:13:03.380 or she might go to a mental health facility. 0.95

00:13:05.460 But the question is how long she would be

00:13:07.020 in a mental health facility. 0.85

00:13:08.160 It looks like she's gonna be in a wheelchair forever.

00:13:10.160 So there's just a real confluence of very interesting issues,

00:13:14.880 how much medication she was on, Prozac,

00:13:17.900 what that, you know, the impact that had,

00:13:20.540 whether there's negligence here,

00:13:21.940 The online conspiracies are, again, loony.

00:13:27.020 They don't make any sense, but it's like wildfire right now.

00:13:30.900 So this is a very, very interesting case.

00:13:33.780 I want to play for the audience a little from the prosecution and the defense so they get a feel for the players here.

00:13:38.700 This is the prosecution's opening, SOT1.

00:13:41.120 This was not a woman in the throes of psychosis on January 24th, 2023.

00:13:45.240 three, this was a woman who acted intentionally, rationally, and swiftly to accomplish a very

00:13:52.980 specific goal, to kill. You'll see and hear evidence about all the things that she did that day, 0.82

00:14:00.320 what she did in the days leading up to this incident, leading to the murders. You'll hear

00:14:06.560 her spending time with her family and friends. You'll hear her appearing to be in good spirits

00:14:11.580 and doing better for all intents and purposes.

00:14:15.060 On that very day, you'll hear she interacted with people at the doctor's office.

00:14:20.200 She came home and took care of the kids.

00:14:22.660 She talked to people on the phone and via text message.

00:14:29.120 The evidence will show you she was not psychotic that day.

00:14:32.880 And Kevin Reddington, the defense lawyer.

00:14:36.080 She had no motive.

00:14:38.680 She loves her children. 1.00

00:14:39.840 she intended to kill herself 1.00

00:14:42.600 she didn't fake that 0.99

00:14:44.720 threw herself out the window

00:14:46.840 most of the hospital 0.98

00:14:48.560 you're going to see that when she's in the hospital

00:14:50.340 they said to her

00:14:51.180 what do they call it a DNR

00:14:53.800 do not resuscitate

00:14:54.860 absolutely did not want any DNR

00:14:58.020 didn't want to be resuscitated

00:14:59.720 wanted to die

00:15:00.520 to this day wants to die

00:15:02.480 that's what we're dealing with

00:15:05.520 on this

00:15:06.000 prosecution

00:15:08.260 so you're going to hear from witnesses

00:15:13.640 it's going to be emotional

00:15:17.180 and

00:15:19.800 thank you for your service

00:15:23.880 I mean man Mark Garagos this is a tough one

00:15:28.400 because the jury's going to hate her

00:15:31.900 and yet I think we all have a natural assumption

00:15:35.640 that a mother does love her children and that for a mother to do this, she would have to be out of

00:15:42.400 her mind. Let me push back a little bit. I don't think this jury is going to hate her. And I will

00:15:49.240 tell you why. For the very reason that there are all of these crazy conspiracy theories running

00:15:57.360 around the internet, blaming the father, he got on the stand. He is the only, I mean,

00:16:06.660 he is the ground zero, if you will, of a victim in this case. And he's lost his wife for all

00:16:15.300 intents and purposes. I know he's been remarried. That's a separate discussion. He's lost his kids.

00:16:21.660 They didn't play the 911 tape. So all of these Looney Tunes on the Internet who only have access to what you just read. And I was they played it in court. They just didn't release it publicly.

00:16:36.460 And there's nobody in court who's going to be blaming him.

00:16:40.780 It's only people who didn't listen to what you read.

00:16:44.580 Because even when you read it, it was compelling.

00:16:47.380 It made me nauseous just listening to that, to imagine what he must have gone through,

00:16:53.220 having to discover his wife, who he was married to love and who was his baby mama and who is there in the throes of mental illness.

00:17:03.380 The people who don't understand this, the people who are out there who are in only a prosecutor. 0.97

00:17:10.840 And I say this with great love for Matt and as my in the well partner, only a prosecutor, a government prosecutor could get up there and make that idiotic opening statement argument that it was intentional. 0.96

00:17:27.140 It was rational. And look at what she did earlier in the day. 0.97

00:17:30.780 I mean, if I were Kevin Reddington, I would lose my mind. This jury is not going to hate her. They're going to just say she's paralyzed. She's never moving again. She's never getting out.

00:17:43.960 They know enough on that jury to know that if they find that she was accurately, that she was mentally out of it under the, as Matt and I discussed, Dave, I haven't talked to you about it, but I'm sure you have the same reaction.

00:18:00.120 The standard is absolutely like a Rubik's Cube of the psychological standard there, but that jury is going to use it in a way that they are going to absolve her of a criminal, in my opinion, of criminal action here.

00:18:17.740 and they're going to fine this for what it is, which is a mother who had, to Reddington's point,

00:18:23.760 no motive. There was nothing here. It wasn't like the prosecution's arguing she was having

00:18:31.440 a torrid affair and wanting to get rid of the kids or anything else. This is a woman who was 1.00

00:18:38.120 on medication, potentially, and I think you'll find that, was failed, and it has been proven so

00:18:45.940 far, we're not even through the defense case, the mental health system failed her, which is a story

00:18:51.060 often that I agree, a story often told. And Kevin Reddington is doing what defense lawyers do best.

00:18:58.380 And it's refreshing for once to have defense lawyers not be demonized and watching a trial

00:19:04.500 like this. Ironically, the same within days of two defense lawyers. Now, one is the attorney

00:19:10.940 general of the united states and the other was the eighth circuit court of appeals justice who

00:19:16.940 swore him in in the oval office yesterday this is a defense lawyer bonanza this week 0.97

00:19:22.280 you're not wrong about the um the medical care it's just now come out that the the woman who 0.90

00:19:31.880 dr tufts who was principally responsible for treating the uh defendant here lindsey clancy 0.99

00:19:39.820 um that dr jennifer tufts has you know an absence of expertise or at least experience behind her 0.66

00:19:48.780 and she had only completed her four-year residency at boston medical school in 2022 0.96

00:19:54.880 these crimes occurred in january of 2023 she started working as a practicing psychiatrist 0.89

00:20:02.040 and got her individual DEA license to prescribe medications in August of 2022.

00:20:09.500 Again, these children would be killed in January of 2023.

00:20:13.180 It was only one month later in September on the 15th, to be exact, that she had her first appointment with Lindsay Clancy.

00:20:20.540 She admitted that she never worked with a patient suffering from postpartum psychosis.

00:20:26.080 The defense attorney Reddington noted that she advertised herself as a specialist in postpartum mental health.

00:20:32.040 He suggested that she had misrepresented her experience when she only had a month under her belt.

00:20:37.940 Dr. Tufts conceded that the different medical providers did not communicate with each other.

00:20:44.140 And at no point did she ask Lindsay Clancy to sign a release form so that she could access Lindsay's medical records and speak to her other doctors to get the full picture of just how sick this woman was. 0.50

00:20:56.740 If you look at the list of, you know, medicines that they had this Lindsay Clancy on, I mean, we'll be here all day.

00:21:03.700 It's just, it's incredible the number of things she was on.

00:21:07.020 Just a couple of, to name just a couple, and I won't list the names because they're too complicated and foreign sounding,

00:21:13.820 but antidepressant, one for anxiety, one to treat seizures and panic disorder.

00:21:18.180 Valium, which is to treat anxiety and seizures and muscle spasms or other things.

00:21:23.640 Prozac, another one to treat allergic reactions and anxiety, another one anti-epileptic and mood stabilizer, one to treat bipolar disorder, one to treat anxiety, one to treat depression, one to treat bipolar disorder.

00:21:36.760 And Zoloft, which is an SSRI, another one, which is an SSRI, a sedative to address.

00:21:44.240 I mean, it's incredible the number of medicines that had been prescribed for her.

00:21:48.620 Here is the husband, Patrick Clancy, on the stand with a little bit of something for both sides here, SOT5.

00:21:59.900 Did she also tell you at that time, at the beginning of December, that she was having some other intrusive thoughts?

00:22:06.500 Yeah.

00:22:07.060 She described thoughts of hurting the kids or them having some sort of ailment.

00:22:17.640 And did she tell you whether or not she had specific thoughts of how she would harm the kids?

00:22:24.560 No.

00:22:25.600 And she didn't describe that as hearing this external voice telling her to harm the kids, correct?

00:22:31.420 Correct.

00:22:32.080 She told you she was having intrusive thoughts herself of harming the children, correct?

00:22:39.480 Correct.

00:22:40.040 and she described it as really the way she was describing it as um something that might happen

00:22:47.180 to the kids so it's more something might happen then she might do something is that correct

00:22:52.600 yeah how many times did she tell you this that she had thoughts of harming the kids

00:22:57.720 a couple times i think i asked her at some point you know do you feel like you need to be

00:23:03.820 kept away from them and she said no and then you know it was very confusing because a minute later

00:23:09.480 she was making them lunch or playing with them or you know getting ready for bed or whatever it was

00:23:15.900 so Dave Ehrenberg how do you see it well it's important for the defense Megan to show that

00:23:23.740 it's not well it is typical in cases of postpartum psychosis that people will act normally sometimes

00:23:29.860 they'll go out make lunch they'll be normal they can hide that and so when you send someone out

00:23:34.860 to do errands is not necessarily premeditation it's just that you can be normal and that's what

00:23:40.520 the defense is saying and also although i do think that dr tufts i thought her testimony you know she

00:23:45.380 came across pretty well but she looks really young and she has inexperience and i do think that helps

00:23:51.500 the defense overall because she was heavily medicated she clearly had mental illness and i

00:23:57.160 find myself agreeing with mark garagos which is rare because normally you know i'm a former

00:24:01.020 prosecutor. I take the prosecution's side. And I know the district attorney, Megan, in this case,

00:24:06.220 his name is Tim Cruz. Great guy. He was involved in the National District Attorney Association.

00:24:11.060 But I think that his office overcharged here. I don't think you can get a first degree murder

00:24:16.000 conviction. I think you lose credibility with the jury to try to get that. I think if anything,

00:24:20.400 it's a lesser charge, maybe a manslaughter, if you're lucky to get it. One thing I did notice

00:24:24.900 is that you notice how the defense lawyer has this thick Massachusetts accent, but the prosecutor

00:24:30.660 doesn't, which is interesting because Tim

00:24:32.760 Cruz, the head prosecutor, has that

00:24:34.760 thick accent, but he chose a

00:24:36.720 prosecutor who has no accent. And so

00:24:38.820 there's a little bit maybe of hometowning here

00:24:40.860 where the jury may feel more sympathy

00:24:42.960 not only for the woman in front of them in the

00:24:44.900 wheelchair, and I do think Mark is right

00:24:46.740 that she will be sympathized with rather

00:24:48.940 than hated, but also with

00:24:50.940 the defense lawyer who sounds more

00:24:52.780 like them. Who are these

00:24:55.040 soft people, Matt Murphy?

00:24:57.080 I don't look

00:24:58.940 at her and feel sorry for her. I realized she had a mental health crisis going on. 0.58

00:25:03.040 Three kids are dead. She took an exercise band around the throats of a one year old, 0.75

00:25:09.620 a four year old and a six year old and strangled them to death. And at least the four and six year 1.00

00:25:14.740 old would have known their mother was killing them, really having a tough time ginning up

00:25:19.100 sympathy. Is it just me? Well, no, it's not. It's not just you. That's one of the that's one of the

00:25:23.660 things about the case, Megan, is that it's so overwrought with emotion. And remember,

00:25:29.200 strangulation, it's not like TV where it takes 20 seconds and somebody dies. For kids, it's going

00:25:34.780 to take three or four minutes of constant pressure, maybe even longer. An average adult,

00:25:41.080 most pathologists will say it takes five to seven minutes. So it's an incredibly long period of time

00:25:45.900 to do it. But look, going back to what Dave was just saying, you know, if we look at that,

00:25:53.580 and this is me getting a little wonky here, my old, as a teacher for trial ad, you notice the

00:26:01.340 defense lawyer was making eye contact with the jury. He was speaking in very low tones. And then

00:26:06.280 the prosecutor really was at that lectern, hands on it. And then I don't know why she would say

00:26:12.940 this was a rational decision. That's not an element in the law. And I don't know why you'd

00:26:17.420 overpromise that because clearly this is irrational. And I don't know. I'm with you,

00:26:23.600 Megan. This is an absolutely horrific thing. It seems like it was a train that looked like it was

00:26:31.800 inaccurately going down the track with the previous mental health commitment and everything

00:26:37.220 else. And it just seems like somebody should have stepped in and stopped it, especially when she's

00:26:41.320 talking about the intrusive thoughts i think that's why so much of the blame has been thrown

00:26:45.060 at the husband here um but uh this is not looking good for the prosecution in my view um this defense

00:26:51.540 lawyer's done everything he needs to do i think that wheelchair does come into play and and megan

00:26:55.660 i think people really will they will have sympathy for her in that wheelchair he's moved on he's

00:27:01.280 married and um you know the jury isn't supposed to get in the wheelchair because she jumped out

00:27:06.400 of a window after she murdered her children i mean right it's not like somebody shot her or 1.00

00:27:11.200 okay great it's a wheelchair i mean i bet any one of those kids would give anything to be in

00:27:16.240 a wheelchair now alive and able to have a future i i realize this is this is not a well person i'm

00:27:22.320 not trying to argue that this was a person of sound mind when she murdered her children but

00:27:27.560 the legal standard seems to be was she suffering from postpartum psychosis where somebody in her

00:27:34.040 head was telling her to do this? Or was she just extremely depressed and decided to end it all and

00:27:39.620 bring the children with her? Right. I mean, that seems to be what they're arguing over inside this

00:27:44.340 courtroom, Matt. Yep. No. And look, I think the prosecution should be leaning into the mental

00:27:50.480 health problems. I think that they should be saying, yep, she's absolutely crazy. She's loony. 0.98

00:27:54.500 She's not playing the full deck. All of that is true. But she still understood the nature and 0.92

00:27:58.260 quality of her acts. And that's reflected in her journal. And the fact that, look, I think a huge

00:28:03.160 fact that nobody's really talking about is the fact that he's, he's talking to her for four

00:28:06.920 minutes. He's conscious. Um, and she doesn't tell him that the kids have bands wrapped around their

00:28:11.980 necks downstairs like that. You could almost from that as a good prosecutor would be leaning into

00:28:18.020 that. I haven't seen them do that yet. And, um, look, I, I don't want to be too harsh here. Um,

00:28:23.800 I don't want to, I, I hated being criticized, but I have not been over impressed with what

00:28:29.800 i've seen from the prosecution on this i'm i'm with dave and mark on on that um and look it it

00:28:35.180 is it's always bad to hide behind the lectern to like separate yourself from the jury not expose

00:28:39.820 yourself fully your body your body motions like try to connect with them drives me nuts and you're

00:28:44.720 right about the accent it drives those kinds of things can matter you know that where they don't

00:28:49.380 feel connected to you right um let's go back to inside the courtroom and hear the husband

00:28:54.040 describing uh the moment when he found the children sought for and when you went left what

00:29:00.660 did you see i saw cora and how did she look she had a band around her neck and was that an exercise

00:29:10.000 band yeah and um do you recall whether she was um what position she was in whether face up or

00:29:19.460 face down she's face down and um when you saw her in that condition what did you do

00:29:26.100 i immediately ran over and tried to take the band off what did you see or do next

00:29:31.920 i saw calen and where was he he was next to her and um how did he appear calen's he had a band

00:29:40.660 around his neck sorry he had a band around his neck and did you remove that as well yeah and

00:29:46.900 And do you recall what position he was in?

00:29:49.520 Same as Cora.

00:29:50.460 After you removed the band from Callan's neck, what did you do next?

00:29:56.600 I tried to find Dawson.

00:29:58.240 I went to the other side of the basement, and he was in my office.

00:30:02.120 And when you saw Dawson, what condition was he in?

00:30:07.900 I knew he was gone.

00:30:10.560 And did he also have a band around his neck?

00:30:12.960 Yeah.

00:30:14.660 Okay.

00:30:15.100 I mean, it's just very hard to hear.

00:30:18.580 And, you know, the jury's going to recoil at the facts of this case.

00:30:22.920 But the defense is chipping away at this woman was suffering.

00:30:29.420 And they have, among other things, her journal.

00:30:32.500 And here is a bit of the defense reading selective parts of that, SOT 7.

00:30:37.720 I now have horrible insomnia and anxiety, which is causing depression.

00:30:42.260 I have no appetite.

00:30:43.300 I don't know what's wrong with me.

00:30:44.520 i want help i want to be well separate occasion he's still a very happy baby despite his sleep

00:30:51.920 training why i feel guilty is not really hitting his milestones not rolling over although he almost

00:30:57.120 is exclamation point and he's babbling which is a new milestone she wrote i have crazy brain fog

00:31:03.180 i feel like i can't make a plan i can't carry it out like i just live moment to moment waiting for

00:31:09.820 The next nap time, I'm terrified of Cal getting overtired now because I feel I can't help him.

00:31:15.140 She then wrote, I'm really worried about going back to work and not being able to function with the brain fog.

00:31:20.820 I feel like I should start with a four-hour shift and see how I do.

00:31:24.660 I can't tell if I am withdrawing from Ativan and Benadryl or is this my new baseline.

00:31:30.280 I feel completely disconnected with my baby.

00:31:33.220 I feel like I'm going through the motions every day.

00:31:35.860 A big thing is I feel disconnected with myself.

00:31:38.340 of time, reality.

00:31:41.960 Just going to show you one more and then go back to you, Garagos.

00:31:44.880 This is Sot 11, where Kevin Reddington, the defense lawyer who you like,

00:31:48.560 is cross-examining this very young Dr. Tufts.

00:31:51.820 You understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertise as an expert

00:31:57.700 in post-part and in post-part psychiatry,

00:32:03.280 and you have a month experience plus a residence,

00:32:06.900 would you consider that to be negligent

00:32:09.580 or misrepresentation

00:32:10.740 I do not believe

00:32:13.540 that I'm negligent

00:32:15.020 do you understand what misrepresentation means

00:32:17.480 yes

00:32:18.640 with a month ending adult course your residency

00:32:21.380 you really want to share

00:32:22.680 that we were at that spread

00:32:24.760 can we advertise that

00:32:26.320 I don't think that's exactly the wording that I used

00:32:29.140 I said that it was in interest of mine

00:32:31.200 is it the answer

00:32:32.640 oh

00:32:33.240 good

00:32:34.700 Um, I just think, um, the wording was that it's an interest of mine. I don't believe I call myself

00:32:42.260 an expert. I mean, I, maybe it's, I don't know. I think it depends on what you define an expert as.

00:32:53.060 Okay. So Mark, what I see is a smart strategy of instead of serving them up, Lindsay Clancy,

00:33:01.080 serving them up a negligent medical professional or two who actually did or should have had the

00:33:10.500 expertise to diagnose this woman and sound the alarm and fail to. And to your point, it doesn't

00:33:16.960 hurt that this particular doctor looks about 12 years old. I mean, she looks like we could all be

00:33:23.080 babysitting her. Not only does she look like she's 12 years old, you haven't played at least so far

00:33:30.280 my favorite part of his cross-examination, which was her trying to get around the fact

00:33:36.600 that there was an invisible N.O.T. on her notes. And he has so much fun with her on that.

00:33:45.280 And you have hit on, as usual, the effective strategy here. And the strategy is when you

00:33:51.840 have a prosecution, to Dave's point, that is so grossly over the top. And I know I don't want to

00:33:58.120 insult matt's good friend here friend of matt's is a friend of mine but the da in this case

00:34:03.460 you know there i had a judge once ask a da that i was trying to case against did they put you on

00:34:09.300 this case because they wanted to lose it and i almost had this feeling here i think the bad sign

00:34:15.320 yeah i think the da put the woman on this case so they could lose it because he didn't want to

00:34:20.740 he didn't want to just dismiss it my dad when he was a prosecutor used to say sometimes it's easier

00:34:25.480 to just try and lose the case than to to plead it out. And I think that's what's going on here,

00:34:30.660 because this is the most ridiculous prosecution of a woman. I look, I agree with you, Megan. 0.98

00:34:37.480 And I was trying to say, if you were on this jury or in the panel, I would have said the defense

00:34:42.340 thanks and excuses, Megan Kelly. What you have to understand, this case resonates. I'm surrounded

00:34:48.740 by mothers everywhere. My daughter, my in my office, anywhere I go, I've got nothing but

00:34:54.660 mothers of two or three kids. They are obsessed with this case, as are non-mothers. And part of 0.56

00:35:03.920 it is that they are torn by what the prosecution is doing here. When the prosecutor starts talking

00:35:11.420 about five years ago, didn't you say, I can't handle this, or I could kill this kid, or something

00:35:16.720 like that, what mother hasn't at one time been at wit's end about their kids, or father for that

00:35:24.580 matter, but mothers especially. And now you're going to not like that retrospect. Well, I agree

00:35:29.900 not like this, but this woman is mentally ill. This woman was in the throes of psychosis. There 1.00

00:35:37.500 is no rational. The idea of characterizing this to Matt's point as rational or saying that it's

00:35:44.020 rational is so absurd that you lose all credibility. Then you put on this so-called

00:35:50.440 expert, and you've got the greatest, circle back, the greatest theme as the defense,

00:35:56.540 the mental health system failed her. You want to prosecute somebody, prosecute the

00:36:01.300 mental health system, because it certainly did not, they had every opportunity in the world to

00:36:06.620 save these babies, and they didn't. Can I tell you something? One time,

00:36:10.560 Abby and I were on a plane, and we're heading out west together, and it was one of those small

00:36:15.320 little jets and it was just she and i as the passengers and they it was a terrible landing

00:36:21.300 it was an aborted landing and then they had to come around again we were already concerned because

00:36:25.500 we had seen our pilot and she looked just like this doctor i mean truly she looked about like

00:36:29.700 17 years old and she had a ponytail on the very top of her head which did not help okay i'm just

00:36:36.840 gonna say it did not help and we had a terrible landing even when she did land the plane and she's

00:36:42.340 she's coming off the plane and she's not going to say anything to us about the fact that we clearly

00:36:46.620 almost crashed. And I almost never directly confront a pilot, but I actually felt the need

00:36:52.700 to say to her, do you think that was a good landing? And the woman said, well, we hit some 0.96

00:36:59.140 sort of dust bunnies or something. We had to come around again. And I'm like, okay, but did you

00:37:03.520 think that was good? And she just kind of looked at me scared. And I said, how many hours do you

00:37:08.560 have in the air and she ran off the plane she ran she she she exited because she knew she was being

00:37:15.600 questioned by you by megan kelly that's why dave don't you just hate it when the pilot of your

00:37:20.640 private plane your private jet is looks too young this is a problem that mark and megan have i don't

00:37:25.880 think you and i have ever experienced that before i want to have that i was not paying for it someone

00:37:29.980 someone wanted me to give a speech and they offered to get us you know transportation and

00:37:34.900 by the way it happened to be to this very hard to get to location which is why they got us this

00:37:38.300 plane. But then I found out after the fact they had done it on the cheap because Maddie, which is

00:37:44.320 that I there's nothing wrong with the name Maddie. But I think when you get older, you graduate to

00:37:48.640 Madeline. Maddie with the ponytail on the top should not have run. She ran. And this doctor 1.00

00:37:56.320 on the stand is giving Maddie the pilot vibes where you're like, I don't think anybody's life 0.99

00:38:02.080 should have been placed in this woman's hands. And that's a that's an advantage for the defense. 1.00

00:38:06.980 Now, I will say if you if you just in getting ready for today, I read the tick tock, you know, 817, 8, 8, 8, 18 a.m., 4 p.m., 4.53. 0.92

00:38:16.960 And what this tick tock shows, Dave, is she's she's acting kind of normally like you're not reading this like, oh, my God, this is a woman who's going to kill her children later today. 0.81

00:38:29.100 And it does, I think, help more the prosecution because it's she's not frothing at the mouth.

00:38:34.780 she's not like bumping into walls she's not saying to the husband when she talks to him like

00:38:39.340 i'm having the i'm hearing the voices you know to the contrary she seems kind of normal she's

00:38:45.860 sending him out to cvs to get the miralax for the one child like i think more than anything what

00:38:52.740 helps the prosecution is just how normal she seemed in every moment the day of the actual

00:38:58.720 murders yeah that's why it's important for the defense to show that when you have postpartum

00:39:04.540 psychosis, you can mask your symptoms. I mentioned this earlier, but they can put on experts to show

00:39:10.800 that people in deep psychiatric crises can perform everyday routines, things that look normal on the

00:39:17.080 surface, engage in like autopilot behaviors. So that's what they're going to lean on. And one

00:39:21.740 thing was mentioned earlier is that this is Massachusetts. So not only do you have home

00:39:26.660 field advantage to the defense lawyer with this accent, but also you have a standard that doesn't

00:39:31.000 exist in most other states. Normally, the standard is that you have to have an established medical

00:39:36.060 condition and not know the difference between right and wrong. So if you jump out of a window

00:39:40.720 afterwards, hey, why'd you do that? Because you knew what you did was wrong. But that's not the

00:39:44.460 standard of Massachusetts. Much easier to put forward an insanity defense there. And as was

00:39:50.160 mentioned earlier, it's very convoluted. It says as a result of a mental defect that you lack 0.89

00:39:55.720 substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of your conduct and then the burden of proof

00:40:01.080 shifts once you make a showing to the prosecution not the defense so it's it's very difficult i think

00:40:08.660 to actually win this case for the prosecution side and one last thing uh mark said that the

00:40:13.980 da's at fault here that that's my friend matt knows all the da's except but this is my buddy

00:40:18.680 in uh in massachusetts tim cruise and i don't believe we would actually put someone of dave

00:40:24.180 not friend of that's right i get it straight i don't think that he would put anyone up to fail

00:40:28.580 because in the end it's his name on the line uh i don't know go ahead i'll call him a friend of

00:40:34.280 deva fod as opposed to a farm a friend of matt but the this guy knows what he's doing he wouldn't

00:40:42.120 have put this woman in her giant bows or success what should have happened garagos in your opinion

00:40:47.740 how should this have been really you could look the one thing that and i think my two i'm in the

00:40:53.360 middle of this prosecutorial sandwich here. You're the bologna. I am the bologna, exactly. I like to

00:41:02.500 think of smoked ham. But the one thing that prosecutors will tell you, if they've got an

00:41:10.440 able defense lawyer, the defense lawyers understand the risk of going to trial. And if you've got a

00:41:19.600 good prosecutor who's not trying to make a name for themselves or anything else, you're going to

00:41:24.620 work out a resolution. I mean, that's always the case. One of the great things about being

00:41:30.180 an accomplished trial lawyer like Kevin Reddington is, is nobody's going to try to make their bones

00:41:35.800 against it. Maybe some would, but generally. And he would have, I'm sure, come up with a resolution

00:41:42.540 that would have put her in a psychiatric hospital where she's going to be anyway. And it would have

00:41:47.940 been a lockdown facility. And you wouldn't have had to put, mind you, putting that father through

00:41:54.300 this, putting the families through this. Remember, she's got parents. They were the grandparents.

00:42:00.320 Can you even imagine the repercussions amongst the family? I always say sometimes prosecutors

00:42:07.060 get this, they become so entrenched in the prosecution that they forget about whose

00:42:15.020 interests are they vindicating? The whole idea of a trial, of a criminal trial, is you're supposed

00:42:21.260 to be vindicating somebody's interest and accountability. And I guarantee you, there

00:42:26.520 aren't any family members who are screaming, I need you to go prosecute this case. I haven't

00:42:31.840 seen one who said this. This should have been resolved. It should have been resolved in a

00:42:37.500 fashion that dealt with it psychiatrically. She's not getting out. I mean, that's what makes this

00:42:44.580 almost kabuki theater like it's where are you going to house her it reminds me of another case

00:42:50.040 i've got where the guy if he pleads guilty criminally he's going to be on one side of the

00:42:55.060 jail if he gets acquitted he's going to be he's got a detainer an immigration detainer hold and

00:43:00.540 they're going to move him to another wing of the jail and you can't get the prosecutor to figure

00:43:04.460 out that it doesn't matter where we house them so but you can't you can get out of the mental

00:43:09.400 health facility we just did an interview you know two and a half months ago with john hinkley jr

00:43:13.640 who is out and free and wrote a very interesting book.

00:43:18.160 So, you know, it does matter.

00:43:19.580 She could get out.

00:43:20.640 Let's certainly hope if that's the way this goes, 0.99

00:43:22.480 it's past childbearing age, you know, 0.99

00:43:26.700 but she could get out again.

00:43:29.320 One final question on this case before we move on.

00:43:31.640 How do you like the civil case that the husband has now brought

00:43:36.120 or is bringing against Patrick Clancy versus Dr. Jennifer Tufts

00:43:40.040 and the other psychiatrist who treated his now ex-wife to anyone like the chances to to say

00:43:47.540 they missed it they missed it all maddie it's not really her name missed it all well you know

00:43:53.680 i often tell clients if the lawyer says i'll charge you by the hour means he doesn't think

00:43:59.140 much of your case the lawyer tells you i'll take it on contingency he likes your case this is a

00:44:04.360 case i would take on contingency i know i agree this is a tough one for these doctors because

00:44:11.020 of course hindsight's 2020 but not asking for the full medical records matt that's bad um she

00:44:18.380 my information is she held herself out as a specialist in postpartum mental health so it 1.00

00:44:24.620 you know you can split hairs about expert specialist but you know this woman was right 0.99

00:44:30.620 in front of her and was being treated by her and within days killed her three children and 0.99

00:44:36.560 tried to kill herself. So it's not a great record. No, I think that the look, if Dave

00:44:42.000 Ehrenberg was prosecuting this case, this this would be a conviction. OK. And if Mark

00:44:47.120 Garagosa was defending it against his prosecutor, she's going to a mental health facility. And I

00:44:51.600 think I think this is one of those that really a lot of this comes down to to the lawyers that

00:44:57.500 were involved and to the strategies that are employed and um this case just the whole thing

00:45:02.680 just it breaks my heart megan it just does um this is a tough one to watch as interesting as it is

00:45:09.220 but um yeah my my prediction is uh this this goes this goes for the defense at the end right i mean

00:45:17.040 there are some practical takeaways on it you know it's like we shouldn't lose sight of those just

00:45:20.920 because we're all lawyers it's like if your wife or for that matter husband but it's this tends to

00:45:26.520 be a postpartum thing, is saying anything about having thoughts of hurting herself with the 0.81

00:45:31.240 children. As much as you love her and believe she will, she loves the children and will eventually

00:45:36.040 be sound and safe to be around them. You have to get those children away from her. You have got to

00:45:40.400 get her away from the children until you are absolutely certain the mental health crisis

00:45:46.200 has passed. You have to. It's like walking around the house with a loaded gun, except you've placed

00:45:53.040 the loaded gun in the hand of a two-year-old toddler who's running and has access to all

00:45:56.800 the rest of the children. It's extremely dangerous. You've got to take this very,

00:46:01.460 very seriously. If there's no other takeaway for families at home, we should have that one.

00:46:05.620 Go ahead, Dave. Yeah. Now, if I was a prosecutor, I mean, maybe I can get a conviction on one of

00:46:10.580 the lesser charges, but I don't think any prosecutor really could get a conviction on

00:46:14.560 first-degree murder here. That's such a hill to climb. Maybe I'll be wrong. We'll see what

00:46:18.080 the jury says one one last thing this civil litigation filed by the husband that helps the

00:46:23.060 defense that is in line with the defense's theory here so just another reason why this case is

00:46:28.080 headed towards a not guilty verdict if you want someone to blame blame those women in the white

00:46:33.900 coats who had an obligation to help her and and to some extent to protect those children and failed

00:46:39.860 that's that's going to be the argument okay let's keep going um nolan wells in that case in the news

00:46:45.560 very much still. And just for the listening audience, this is a young man who traveled out

00:46:51.460 to Horn Island off the coast of Mississippi with his buddies on July 4th. He was black. All of his

00:46:56.400 friends were white. This would become relevant to the Ben Crumps of the world, but not to the rest 0.99

00:47:01.160 of us. They were lifelong friends. They took three boats out there in total. Nolan chose not to go

00:47:08.620 back with the one boat that had transported him to the island when that boat went back around 3.30

00:47:13.340 in the afternoon because he was talking to a girl reportedly and wanted to stay talking to that girl

00:47:17.900 known as Katie. When that boat went back to port and the other two boats went back, Nolan wasn't on

00:47:26.840 either one and it was chaotic and there were some 30 kids and it wasn't until later that they

00:47:31.460 realized no one had Nolan and then started calling around and ultimately called his mom

00:47:37.160 and called authorities and returned his phone to Nolan's mother who asked for it and they were

00:47:43.980 happy to give it over. She now reportedly still has the phone and is not giving it over to the

00:47:48.780 police, which is weird. But all the speculation is zeroing in on his white friends as allegedly

00:47:57.360 the last ones to be with him. But now there are two adults coming forward saying that they were

00:48:03.820 there, that they were on this island, and that they saw Nolan as late as 6 p.m. that

00:48:08.900 day, which is after all of his friends had left, and certainly well after the boat in

00:48:16.020 question that's gotten most of the accusations, the one that left around 3.30 because it was

00:48:20.820 taking on water, the one that made a distress call that is recorded but very garbled that

00:48:27.200 this internet sleuth tells us has a full confession to murdering Nolan on it, but

00:48:32.540 But now you've got at least two witnesses, reportedly speaking with authorities, adults, who will say, no, no, no, no, no, Nolan was on Horn Island as late as 6 p.m. long after the boys left, which should be ballgame.

00:48:46.300 But the question is, will it be ballgame in this wacky world in which we're Internet sleuthing and no explanation is a good one and real facts don't make any difference at all?

00:48:57.820 Matt Murphy.

00:48:58.860 No, it's not going to make any difference.

00:49:02.080 In the real world, what they're going to do, they're running this through a grand jury.

00:49:06.640 So a lot of information we still don't have because it's a grand jury process.

00:49:11.140 And they're going to, it's my understanding, it's an investigative role for the grand jury, which is one of the options.

00:49:17.500 And they're going to find, my prediction is they're going to find that this was a tragic accident at the end.

00:49:23.520 And it'll never be enough for some people, Megan. 0.96

00:49:26.160 And that, for lack of a better term, it really sucks. 0.92

00:49:30.100 I've watched the interviews with these kids. 0.93

00:49:32.200 At least two of them have gone public.

00:49:34.520 And I'd encourage people to watch that.

00:49:37.140 One of them was with a guy named Officer Tatum, who is a police officer.

00:49:41.180 Brandon Tatum.

00:49:41.800 Yeah, and the guy's great.

00:49:42.800 And he asks all the right questions.

00:49:44.160 And just you watch this kid answering the questions.

00:49:47.380 And he comes off as a brokenhearted guy who lost one of his best buddies.

00:49:52.840 And I think that everybody should watch that because it doesn't fit the Ben

00:49:59.060 Crump, Al Sharpton narrative, though. But wait, can I just ask you a question, Dave? As a former

00:50:03.480 prosecutor, what do you mean they can't get the cell phone from the victim's mother, from the

00:50:08.460 decedent's mother? Doesn't she have to turn it over if the cops say we want it or if a grand

00:50:13.140 jury subpoena comes their way? Yes, that's why I'm surprised. These are reports, so we don't know

00:50:16.900 for sure. I saw reports that they had given the information over, but they still have the phone,

00:50:21.760 so I don't know. But yes, they need to give it over. It's really important, especially with all

00:50:25.840 misinformation out there. And this case is now starting to give me some of the Duke La Crosse

00:50:31.040 vibes here, where you have these kids who are being wrongfully accused in the court of public

00:50:35.280 opinion at the beginning, and the evidence just keeps supporting them every bit that comes out. 1.00

00:50:40.120 It's so true. And they've been open books about, you know, look at everything. They've been talking

00:50:44.400 to other authorities from the beginning. They've been totally cooperative. Every day brings a new

00:50:48.300 accusation against a new kid who was there with their friend, Nolan, or trying to help the guys

00:50:53.380 who had water coming on their boats.

00:50:54.760 It's really despicable.

00:50:56.240 Okay, that's it for this panel, you guys.

00:50:58.640 Thank you.

00:50:59.320 A pleasure as always.

00:51:00.880 Up next, our second Kelly's Court panel.

00:51:03.380 And I don't know if you could say better,

00:51:05.140 but equally compelling set of cases for hour two.

00:51:08.900 Don't go away.

00:51:09.980 You don't wait until your house is on fire

00:51:11.780 to install a smoke detector.

00:51:13.660 You don't wait until the wind and rain hammer your windows

00:51:16.040 and the power goes out to prepare for a hurricane.

00:51:18.260 You don't reach for your seatbelt after you've had a crash

00:51:21.200 because after the crash,

00:51:22.760 the hurricane or the house fire, it's all too late. Similarly, you do not wait until the dollar

00:51:27.800 goes to zero before you buy gold. It's too late then too. So consider diversifying with precious

00:51:34.340 metals right now because you never know what will threaten your savings next. Persistent inflation,

00:51:40.660 we've all been feeling that, a weakening dollar, unexpected financial disruptions. You don't know

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00:52:16.420 while we're on the subject of legal matters before we get to our next kelly's court cases i want to

00:52:24.940 bring you a clip of our latest mk confidential series which debuted last night i am so into

00:52:31.300 this story i through all my listening to dateline in 48 hours and all the true crime space i had

00:52:38.100 never heard of the story of john list our series this week is called the annihilator

00:52:44.320 He is what is known as a family annihilator from a suburban town in New Jersey in the 1970s.

00:52:53.860 All right, look at this. Here's a clip.

00:52:56.520 The manhunt for John List starts big and goes nowhere.

00:53:01.200 The murder of an entire family in a New Jersey mansion is national news.

00:53:06.180 And for a while, the whole nation does pay attention.

00:53:09.440 His face goes out on FBI-wanted posters into police stations and pharmacies across the country

00:53:14.940 describing him, among other things, as reportedly a neat dresser.

00:53:19.820 The Bureau takes the case because a killer who has crossed a state line is federal business.

00:53:25.520 Detectives in Westfield build a theory around the kind of man they believe he is.

00:53:30.340 Someone so bound to his church and his routines that sooner or later he will have to surface

00:53:36.920 at some Lutheran church in some quiet town. 0.72

00:53:40.660 They settle in to wait for it.

00:53:43.960 Okay, so let me tell you something.

00:53:45.640 Doug and I have been listening to this.

00:53:47.480 Now we are now at the point where it's like,

00:53:49.040 we're like, hey, be quiet.

00:53:50.220 We need to hear this.

00:53:51.800 I've tracked the series.

00:53:53.400 I've edited all the scripts.

00:53:54.980 I have a great team actually doing the producing,

00:53:57.060 but I am into this one.

00:53:59.380 So check it out.

00:54:01.100 Put me to the test, okay?

00:54:02.600 To see if you agree with me.

00:54:04.380 Episode two hits tonight.

00:54:05.720 Episode one's only.

00:54:06.400 each one is a half an hour. We've been airing them in evenings at 9 p.m. They get released

00:54:11.500 as a podcast and on our YouTube feed as well. And so by the end of the week, you'll have,

00:54:17.160 you know, what, I guess two and a half hours of content, but you'll hear episode two tonight.

00:54:21.520 If you haven't reached episode one, you can just watch that instead and watch the series along with

00:54:27.000 me. It's right here on our Megan Kelly podcast feed and YouTube channel as well. I also wanted

00:54:32.460 tell you that we are waiting at this hour to hear the resolution to the story that we brought you

00:54:37.240 last week about the surrogate, McKenna West. Here's a clip of when she was on on Thursday.

00:54:44.880 It was a reassuring conversation that really they wanted a baby. They weren't exactly sure

00:54:51.420 what decision they would make if something came up, but they ultimately just wanted to be parents.

00:54:56.940 And so I felt confident moving forward with them that termination would not be their first choice.

00:55:04.860 Well, McKenna is almost due with this couple's baby.

00:55:09.420 It's their biological child, but she's carrying it.

00:55:13.080 And they objected.

00:55:15.440 The parents objected to her seeing the pregnancy through to full term because they wanted her to have an abortion at around the 20-week mark.

00:55:23.660 We don't know their names.

00:55:24.960 they're just going under their initials in the lawsuit, but it's because the baby was diagnosed

00:55:30.780 with congenital heart defects, which they view as catastrophic, but we have seen you can live

00:55:39.000 through and actually go on to thrive despite having. And we profiled a story when we interviewed

00:55:46.000 McKenna of a little boy who went through exactly this. He wasn't the only one. And I understand,

00:55:51.780 look it's their biological child but they've involved a third party in the in the birth of

00:55:56.320 that child in the in the having of that child without McKenna they couldn't have this baby

00:55:59.880 and she does not want to abort this child over birth defects that are survivable say they're

00:56:09.140 medical experts and say the independent research that we've done so she's now she's from Alaska

00:56:16.580 and they're in California and the law is much better for them in California she's now in Texas

00:56:21.740 yes, McKenna is with this baby about to come. I mean, he's due in September. She's calling him

00:56:27.680 Gabriel. And she has said to the parents, just let me take him. If you want to abort him,

00:56:33.840 I'm not aborting him. But if you don't want this child, I'll take him. Her brother volunteered to

00:56:37.700 adopt him. There are many, many families who would be happy to adopt him. Lila Rose of live

00:56:44.340 action has been very instrumental in this whole case. Very, very, very pro-life in a wonderful way.

00:56:48.560 and the parents are fighting

00:56:51.680 because they want to have custody of their child,

00:56:54.340 their biological child, as soon as he's born

00:56:56.140 and McKenna's worried that they want the custody

00:56:59.320 so that they can give him only comfort care

00:57:01.240 and allow him to die.

00:57:03.300 Now, we don't know whether that's their plan.

00:57:04.940 We haven't been able to speak with them.

00:57:06.060 We don't know their identities,

00:57:07.340 but that's her fear and they are litigating.

00:57:11.360 She wants to be able to call the shots

00:57:13.180 and make sure the child gets,

00:57:14.440 he's going to need an operation right away

00:57:16.160 and then two more over the course of his first two years.

00:57:18.820 In any event, it's a very fraught, compelling, emotional, legal fight.

00:57:24.220 And we've been told by the legal teams that we're dealing with over on McKenna's side

00:57:29.360 that they expect a ruling out of a Texas court on what's going to have to happen

00:57:33.520 when this baby's born, possibly within the hour.

00:57:36.340 So we are monitoring our contacts with them

00:57:38.640 and we'll bring you an update just as soon as we have it.

00:57:41.520 If not before the end of the show today, then if we have it, we'll bring it to you tomorrow.

00:57:44.800 So praying for a good, I don't know, is that too bold, result in this courtroom.

00:57:53.020 I really, really hope and pray, and I've been praying for these parents too.

00:57:57.260 I really have.

00:57:57.820 I realize in a very difficult situation, but if they don't want to raise a boy who has these problems or deal with these problems or has medical expenses, fear, you know, I pray they come to the right decision on allowing somebody else to take it on.

00:58:14.800 i'm sure it is too much for for just for everybody but there are willing loving volunteers who will

00:58:22.100 help so hopefully they've received that message and will make a good choice all right um moving

00:58:27.720 on this is a story out of oklahoma that is making national headlines it's kind of stunning okay

00:58:35.600 walk through this with me march of 2025 a then 17 year old young man named jesse butler

00:58:44.720 is arrested after two, not one, but two ex-girlfriends accuse him of rape and of strangling

00:58:53.840 them to the point of unconsciousness. One after the other in, it's about a six or seven month

00:58:59.080 period. Claim this happened to them. Butler was at first charged as an adult with 10 felonies,

00:59:06.120 including first degree rape and battery by strangulation. Very, very serious charges.

00:59:11.620 Here is the body cam video of his arrest. Watch.

00:59:41.620 I'll get you out for me.

00:59:57.220 All right.

00:59:57.680 Stay silent.

00:59:59.140 Rick knows about this.

01:00:00.720 Candy's on this.

01:00:01.740 Dad's on his way.

01:00:02.940 We're coming to get you, okay?

01:00:04.860 Stay strong, okay?

01:00:06.140 Say your prayers.

01:00:06.920 There's nothing in your silence.

01:00:08.720 so this young man jesse butler was facing up to 78 years in prison but that's before he got the

01:00:22.760 plea deal of all plea deals thanks to the oklahoma youthful offenders act which was passed in 1994

01:00:29.360 which allows those under 18 who are charged with serious crimes the only exception is first degree

01:00:34.740 murder to be prosecuted as juveniles. Now, according to multiple reports, Judge Susan

01:00:40.920 Worthington granted Jesse Butler's request to be certified as a youthful offender. And according to

01:00:46.760 the Payne County Clerk's Office, Judge Worthington then promptly retired. She's gone on to retire. 0.72

01:00:54.080 Butler then switched his plea once he was afforded this juvenile offender status from not guilty to

01:01:01.180 no contest and was permitted to complete a rehabilitation plan at home, along with 150

01:01:08.500 hours of community service. His case officially ended last Monday, August 3rd, after a different

01:01:13.780 judge ruled that Butler had complied with the plan and that the court lost jurisdiction when

01:01:17.820 he turned 19 on August 4th. Here is a report from KOCO TV explaining what happened.

01:01:25.220 This was the moment Jesse Butler walked out of the Payne County courthouse for the final time,

01:01:30.620 Closing the chapter on a high-profile sexual assault case that drew public outcry across Oklahoma and the nation.

01:01:37.780 On Monday, a Payne County judge dismissed Butler's youthful offender case one day before his 19th birthday.

01:01:44.760 Butler was granted youthful offender status after initially being charged as an adult,

01:01:49.620 later entering no contest pleas in a case involving the sexual assault of two teenage girls.

01:01:55.020 Monday's hearing was the final review of Butler's rehabilitation plan.

01:01:58.760 The Office of Juvenile Affairs said he completed every requirement.

01:02:03.000 The judge said that left the court with no choice.

01:02:05.860 Under Oklahoma law, his supervision ends when he turns 19 and the court has no authority to extend it.

01:02:11.800 Butler's attorney called it a big day for his client,

01:02:14.840 encouraging him to not look back in a speech that left the victim and the victim's family in tears,

01:02:20.560 prompting an impassioned response from the newly sworn in Payne County District Attorney, 0.99

01:02:25.340 who called the attorney's speech a, quote, disingenuous sack of garbage. 0.85

01:02:31.020 Oh, OK, we're going to get into the specifics of what's being alleged here and why the two 0.93

01:02:37.120 alleged victims are so angry about what's just happened. Let's get into it. We've got Mark

01:02:43.580 Iglarsh and Jonna Spilbore, hosts of Positively Legal, as well as Phil Holloway, co-host of the

01:02:48.560 MK True Crime Show, along with Dave Ehrenberg, who you saw there, and Ashley Merchant. You can

01:02:52.720 find both shows at MK true crime. Just go to wherever you get your podcast, type in MK true

01:02:57.400 crime and hit subscribe and on YouTube as well. Same thing. Um, all podcast platforms and on

01:03:04.080 YouTube. All right, guys, great to see you all. So just for the listening audience. So this is

01:03:07.920 what happened here. The two girls are remaining anonymous. They go by LS and KS. They said the

01:03:13.620 abuse took place over several months in 2024. They reported it to a school resource officer

01:03:18.320 in september of 2024 who alerted police according to an arrest warrant affidavit ls um who i think 0.61

01:03:25.880 was yeah she was the first girl who he dated and allegedly assaulted he dated her from january to 0.55

01:03:33.840 march of 2024 and then it appears he picked up with ks in april uh or late march of 2024 to

01:03:42.620 september of 2024 so all told we're talking about um from january 2024 to september 20 about a nine

01:03:50.280 month period and the ls was first then kim chaos as his girlfriend uh okay here's what ls alleges

01:03:56.680 she told the detective that they dated that he frequently physically and sexually assaulted her

01:04:02.040 she said he attempted on february 2nd again they just started dating the month earlier

01:04:07.220 attempted to rape her in a vehicle but was interrupted when a woman approached the car

01:04:12.600 L.S. said she believed the woman, 0.66

01:04:14.120 it's quoting here from the affidavit,

01:04:15.840 had heard her yelling, crying, and saying no.

01:04:19.240 Butler then allegedly drove to his home

01:04:20.780 where L.S.'s car was parked

01:04:22.020 and attempted to rape her again 0.99

01:04:23.660 before she managed to escape. 0.99

01:04:25.820 L.S. said Butler warned her if she went to the cops,

01:04:28.360 quote, they would both be in trouble.

01:04:30.880 Okay, now it's, I've just got to say,

01:04:34.100 it's February 2nd.

01:04:35.080 I would certainly hope that, God forbid,

01:04:36.440 this kind of thing ever happened to my daughter

01:04:38.820 or any young girl,

01:04:39.680 that there would not be another encounter after february 2nd if that happened there would be no

01:04:45.860 secondary attempt at anything because this person would be out of your life and under some sort of

01:04:51.920 restraining order and possibly in handcuffs but she alleges that 27 days after that first alleged

01:04:58.340 assault on february 29th after she refused to engage in sexual acts with him uh that he strangled

01:05:06.520 her to the point of unconsciousness and that when she woke up he was laughing at her just just before 1.00

01:05:14.500 we get too down too far down the lane of well she must be full of shit because why would she go back 0.99

01:05:19.200 to him and allow him this opportunity to potentially put hands on her um the new york post is reporting 1.00

01:05:24.460 that this victim had to have surgery because of the strangulation so this is as serious as a heart

01:05:32.380 attack. Apparently what happened to this girl? An attorney for LS did not immediately respond to a

01:05:37.360 request for comment. Um, okay. Then KS comes into Butler's life from March to September,

01:05:46.720 according to the arrest affidavit. KS told detectives that in April, again, she started

01:05:51.560 dating him the month before at a drive-in restaurant. Butler tried to touch her without

01:05:55.380 consent. When she refused, he threw her to the ground, scratching her arm and laughed about it

01:05:59.520 afterward chaos said she engaged in sexual activities with butler throughout their relationship

01:06:03.760 quote to prevent physical aggression from him according to the affidavit uh telling the

01:06:09.620 detective she had learned quote what to do and what not to do to keep from being hurt she also

01:06:14.240 described two strangulation incidents she said took place in the summer in the first while she

01:06:19.200 was house sitting for a friend butler strangled her she said until she lost consciousness leaving

01:06:23.300 red marks on her neck days later she said he strangled her again this time again you're like

01:06:30.440 could this possibly be true why would she have another encounter with him after an alleged

01:06:34.140 strangulation well stay tuned because she says days later he strangled her again this time

01:06:40.360 filming it on his phone investigators later obtained the search warrant for butler's phone

01:06:45.200 and recovered a video dated august 1st 2024 that appeared to show him strangling her ks

01:06:51.340 until she passed out according to court filings in a separate incident described in the affidavit

01:06:58.160 butler allegedly dragged ks by the neck and hair from her home to a vehicle in her driveway so

01:07:04.120 johnna you tell me how any prosecutor with this level of evidence accepted this juvenile status

01:07:12.260 thing and a no contest plea and a little home confinement with a few hours of community service

01:07:20.500 Yeah, as the punishment. I don't know what exactly we're missing, because certainly the prosecution had an opportunity to try this person as an adult, not just for the sexual assault.

01:07:30.760 But if you have what what you just described, Megan, as an attempted murder, if you ask me on his cell phone, why they would then agree to prosecute him.

01:07:42.140 I put that in air quotes under the youthful offender statue.

01:07:45.980 I don't know if his family is well connected.

01:07:49.100 I don't know if there is maybe behind the scenes.

01:07:52.740 Is there some question about the balance of the evidence that has been put forth, whether

01:07:58.220 they would not have been successful in adult court?

01:08:01.140 These are all the things that the prosecution has to think about when they're making these

01:08:05.240 kinds of charging decisions.

01:08:06.600 But how do you get around?

01:08:08.620 How do you get around a video?

01:08:10.080 So that's the part that that is mind boggling to me.

01:08:13.900 And I would like to know from them why they decided to do what they did despite that kind of of evidence.

01:08:21.060 Yes, because our understanding, Mark, is that this wasn't required to afford him the juvenile status.

01:08:28.200 It had to be filed as a motion and that what's what the victims are so angry about, among other things, is that the prosecutor's office, while it's now being run by a new D.A.

01:08:38.120 who's outraged, at the time was with a different person. And that person had to agree. So this was

01:08:43.600 by agreement between the prosecutor and the defense attorney that he would be treated as a

01:08:49.840 youthful offender. And the judge as well could have said, I'm not signing off on this, but did

01:08:55.260 to both that status and then this subsequent legal slap on the wrist. Yeah, we're likely

01:09:00.200 missing something. This guy is a dangerous predator. And I don't think picking up some 0.99

01:09:05.380 trash on the side of the road, even for 150 hours, is going to rid him of his violent sexual deviant 0.93

01:09:12.500 urges. So we're missing something because it doesn't add up. Generally, I find that prosecutors 0.97

01:09:19.540 aren't soft on crime. Every time immediately people start pointing their finger and saying,

01:09:24.260 oh, they're soft or whatever, that's usually not it. There's usually some type of proof issue.

01:09:29.260 There's usually something going on with the case where they say, well, it's kind of weak.

01:09:33.140 at least we'll get him to admit and we'll have him under our eye for a couple of years.

01:09:38.900 The judge, all you had to do was say retirement and then everything made sense to me because

01:09:43.460 no judge, especially one that has to run for reelection, would ever consider this type

01:09:48.540 of deviation.

01:09:49.400 I think it's a miscarriage of justice.

01:09:51.940 OK, and I just I just want to say I'm not 100 percent sure that the D.A.'s office agreed

01:09:58.080 to the youthful offender status.

01:10:00.280 It's true that in May of 2025, Butler's attorney filed a motion seeking useful offender certification and that that that was granted.

01:10:09.160 It was granted. That makes sense. And then the D.A.'s and then the D.A.'s office seems to have been telling the victims that he would be subjected to more severe punishment.

01:10:20.700 This is what the allegations fail are that the. Hold on, I want to get it correctly, that the victims and their families were told by the DA's office that Jesse Butler would plead guilty and would serve time at a juvie facility in exchange for youthful offender status.

01:10:41.820 However, just before an August 2025 hearing, the families learned that Butler would not agree to plead guilty and would not agree to incarceration at a juvenile facility at all.

01:10:57.140 We don't know who the district attorney was according to the filing, but we did find out after the fact that it was Laura Austin Thomas who also retired in April.

01:11:07.260 So the D.A. who handled this, Laura Austin Thomas, has retired and we believe the judge is retired. And when the victims found out that this was going to be no time served and not a pleading of guilty, but no contest and at home confinement with a little community service, they both urged the court to reject the plea saying this is an outrage.

01:11:33.440 cannot happen. And the newly elected district attorney says he's pissed, too. He also objects.

01:11:39.740 So I don't you tell you tell me what your take is on how this went down, how this could have

01:11:44.180 possibly gone down. Well, at the risk of sounding too much like a parrot, I have to parrot what my

01:11:51.000 colleagues have said. And there's there's things that we don't know. Something's missing or maybe

01:11:55.820 several things are missing from what we know. Now, obviously, the recitation of the alleged facts

01:12:01.700 that you went through is horrifying.

01:12:03.820 And if someone's guilty of that,

01:12:05.420 you know, Mark is entirely correct.

01:12:07.000 That's a person who probably should never

01:12:08.880 breathe free air again.

01:12:10.560 And this would be an extreme miscarriage of justice.

01:12:13.940 But what we don't know is whether the prosecutors

01:12:17.560 were asleep at the switch.

01:12:19.160 We don't know if prosecutors were just lazy.

01:12:21.320 We don't know if they were just soft on crime,

01:12:24.480 or we don't know if they are aware of problems

01:12:28.660 with the strength of their case

01:12:30.580 that we're unaware of.

01:12:32.120 Sometimes evidence is not admissible.

01:12:34.140 You have a strangulation on video

01:12:36.440 with one alleged victim

01:12:38.200 and the other alleged victim needed a surgery

01:12:40.300 to address the strangulation.

01:12:42.460 You're in pretty good territory as a DA.

01:12:44.140 Maybe not, because I've had cases 0.98

01:12:45.940 involving rape fantasy sex

01:12:48.160 where people were charged with crimes 0.61

01:12:50.720 as it turns out to be not a crime.

01:12:53.660 And our colleague Ashley Merchant

01:12:55.520 and I recently finished a case

01:12:57.140 where the factual allegations,

01:12:59.520 not including the surgery for strangulation, but some of the rest of these facts,

01:13:05.480 not including the ages of the parties involved, are strikingly similar.

01:13:10.360 And after a four-year ordeal, a prosecutor who finally took a critical look at the case said,

01:13:17.320 you know what? These witnesses are not credible.

01:13:20.120 We can't prove what we thought we could prove, and the entire thing was dismissed.

01:13:25.460 So I'm not taking sides on this.

01:13:28.280 I'm simply saying we don't know what the prosecutor did and did not know.

01:13:34.320 It could be that they were just sloppy.

01:13:36.280 It could be they were just disengaged and checked out, ready to retire.

01:13:39.400 Or it could be that there was a problem with credibility of some of the witness statements.

01:13:44.060 It could be a problem with maybe the way the police obtained evidence.

01:13:47.500 Maybe some of it was subject to being suppressed.

01:13:49.940 So the prosecutors had to get the best they could do.

01:13:52.820 I'm saying that what we ought to do is try to get some of these people on this program

01:13:56.820 and ask them why.

01:13:58.280 Because I don't really like guessing about it, but I can tell you that there is definitely

01:14:02.280 something missing from this calculation that none of us are aware of.

01:14:06.760 I mean, John, if you're a DA, just to play devil's advocate here, and you're looking

01:14:13.080 at a situation in which the victims, the alleged victims, repeatedly went back to the guy

01:14:19.960 after they say he attempted to rape me and he attempted to strangle me, and then there's

01:14:25.300 another date and another date and another date and the relationship goes on for more months. 0.55

01:14:29.020 Right. It's not great. That is definitely a bad fact for team prosecution. And to Phil's point,

01:14:35.760 unfortunately, this is a weird little like sex fetish trend. Not saying these girls agree to it, 0.56

01:14:43.280 but it is a thing that we're hearing more and more about this strangulation thing that

01:14:48.640 unfortunately, guys who have watched too much pornography decide to try on their young girls

01:14:55.000 the girlfriends and these girlfriends too often i'm not saying it was the case with these girls

01:15:00.020 but too often they feel like they have to go along with it because they're not sexy they're

01:15:04.960 not fun they're not cool if they're not you know willing to partake in the latest risky behavior

01:15:10.440 it's very sad but it is something we're reading a lot about in the news these days

01:15:14.080 i mean if we are playing devil's advocate sure at that age let's assume that these

01:15:19.180 kids right 17 years old are exploring their sexuality this is not a situation where you have

01:15:26.320 somebody who's been married to someone for 10 years who has been repeatedly beaten who can't

01:15:31.240 leave because they don't have a job and three kids and that kind of battered woman syndrome these are

01:15:35.860 teenagers who come and get you know i i changed boyfriends like i changed my underwear when i was

01:15:40.520 that age like you're not you're not stuck so why they would have a second date or a third date or

01:15:47.440 not tell could you imagine coming home and saying oh hey mom hey dad yeah my new boyfriend tried to

01:15:52.940 choke me that's what the marks are for they'd be he'd be dead he'd be dead right and my father

01:15:58.400 would be in i have two points um first um i don't need the image of jonna changing her underwear

01:16:05.020 and number two sorry yeah please none of that um and number two what bothers me again is it's like

01:16:13.160 Kohlberger all over again, where the parents were saying, this is outrageous. Nobody sat us down

01:16:19.420 and explained this to us. We were blindsided by the plea. That can't happen. Good point. That

01:16:24.300 cannot happen. What do we need to body cam prosecutors going into a room saying, okay,

01:16:30.020 let me explain everything to you here. This cannot happen. And victims are getting victimized all

01:16:37.000 over again. It shouldn't be coming from the prosecutor. I tell you what a smart prosecutor.

01:16:40.960 And we know it's true. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the current D.A. so pissed off.

01:16:45.340 This is exactly what he said. His name is Jeremiah Gregory.

01:16:48.240 And he said, I cannot undo what has already been done, but I can and will continue to stand as a strong voice for all victims of violent crime.

01:16:55.820 And is now saying he's going to refer this to federal prosecutors for review because he thinks there might still be federal charges available.

01:17:07.000 Just as an FYI, some commentators have pointed out that Jesse Butler's family is prominent in the community.

01:17:14.640 He was a popular baseball player at his high school.

01:17:17.000 His father is the former director of operations for the Oklahoma State University football team.

01:17:22.140 The special judge who granted Butler youthful offender status, Susan Worthington, who is now retired, has longstanding ties to OSU.

01:17:30.900 She received two bachelor's degrees there.

01:17:33.640 Again, we don't know whether any of that played any role whatsoever in this, but now that

01:17:37.500 you have new blood on the case, Jeremiah Gregory, the newly elected DA, he sees it differently.

01:17:41.180 I don't know whether he's going to be able to get the feds interested in a case that's

01:17:43.560 all wrapped up in a bow already, Phil.

01:17:45.180 Can I share with you what a smart prosecutor will do when they are looking to either agree

01:17:51.580 to some type of a sweetheart plea deal on an otherwise very egregious set of facts or

01:17:56.560 even a dismissal, like in the case that I was telling you about that Ashley Merchant

01:18:00.640 and I just finished?

01:18:01.720 A smart prosecutor is going to go on the record in open court and there will be a court reporter taking all of this down and he or she will say, judge, these are the factual allegations.

01:18:14.060 However, we've made the following decisions and here's why.

01:18:17.620 We talked to this victim, and this victim was not able to provide a consistent explanation for prior inconsistent statements.

01:18:26.500 Or we looked at this piece of evidence, and we decided that it weighed against guilt.

01:18:33.040 Judge, by the way, we've talked to the victims and their families who are opposed to this.

01:18:38.240 However, we are obligated to follow the law, and we are obligated to do justice.

01:18:43.200 We're not obligated to do what families of victims want us to do.

01:18:48.060 And here, judge, is why we are unable to acquiesce to their wishes and put it all out on the record.

01:18:55.820 And that way, shows like this don't really have much to talk about because we know the part that is missing.

01:19:03.240 The thing that we identified at the beginning of the segment, there's something missing.

01:19:06.240 And if the prosecutor were smart and had gone on the record and laid all of this out, then we wouldn't be even probably having this conversation.

01:19:14.640 But that's how a smart prosecutor would handle it.

01:19:17.220 That doesn't fix the problem, Phil.

01:19:18.840 Number one, they'd be blindsided.

01:19:20.420 Those conversations need to be had before they get to court and tell them what the problem is.

01:19:25.360 They need to be having those conversations privately.

01:19:28.260 And then the second thing is, when I was a prosecutor, oftentimes you can't really lay out in detail things like, I found the victim not to be credible.

01:19:37.260 I found that, you know, now you're trashing people in open credit.

01:19:40.060 It's very dicey.

01:19:41.760 No, what you say is you say, well, judge, we can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:19:45.140 There's code words, but it means the same thing.

01:19:46.920 We're going to talk about such a memo, such a non-prosecution memo in our next case when we come back from break with this wrestler who alleges that she was sexually assaulted by a trans opponent.

01:19:57.620 who she says put his fingers in her coochie. 0.82

01:20:01.440 That's what she allowed. 0.99

01:20:02.880 That's a quote.

01:20:05.120 That's her quote, Mark Eiglarsch.

01:20:06.860 I don't know what that means.

01:20:07.640 Stop it.

01:20:08.080 Help me, Jonna.

01:20:08.800 Jonna, help me.

01:20:09.480 What does Megan say?

01:20:10.220 And there was a non-prosecution agreement,

01:20:12.020 or not agreement, but finding there.

01:20:14.960 However, their problems are not yet over,

01:20:17.000 which is why it's on Kelly's court today.

01:20:18.760 Okay, we're going to pause.

01:20:19.980 We will get to that case and more

01:20:21.780 right after this break.

01:20:22.540 Don't go away.

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01:21:36.140 We are back now with Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbore of Positively Legal on the MK

01:21:41.700 Crime Network, True Crime Network, and Phil Holloway as well, who co-hosts the MK True

01:21:46.760 crime show, same place. Okay. So here is what's happened. There's this case where a girl wrestler

01:21:57.800 in Washington state claims that she was sexually assaulted by a trans wrestler, a boy posing as a

01:22:05.880 girl in a wrestling match. I'm going to show the video. And while this may just look like a

01:22:11.320 wrestling match to us the girl who you can see has got the long hair in here is claiming that 0.85

01:22:17.740 there was a sexual assault that happened she's on the bottom here she is claiming that the boy 1.00

01:22:22.620 posing as a girl shoved his fingers up her vagina in the midst of this and she actually called out 1.00

01:22:30.280 at the moment to her mother on the sidelines he's got his fingers up my coochie and um she says 0.99

01:22:37.420 she let him pin her to stop it and her lawyers say what we're witnessing here is not a wrestling

01:22:44.180 match but a sexual assault she was very distressed reportedly when this ended to the point that she

01:22:51.080 went and complained her mother did to the school authorities saying what in god's name you didn't

01:22:55.800 even tell her that she was wrestling a boy she thought she was wrestling a girl there are so

01:23:00.160 many issues with that separate and apart from this the alleged sexual assault but i mean in wrestling

01:23:05.720 Obviously, the that's the size and natural testosterone of a boy would be something to contend with and put something potentially dangerous for a girl.

01:23:14.360 So the parents are not happy. So what's happened now is because the principal principal and the athletic coordinator did not report it.

01:23:23.860 They didn't report it. And they're mandatory reporters.

01:23:26.920 If you have a minor who comes to you and says, I was sexually assaulted on school grounds.

01:23:30.200 That's the boy who did it. It's all on tape. He put his fingers inside of me against my will.

01:23:35.080 this was not consented to, you have an obligation to report it. They didn't. And now Pierce County

01:23:41.840 prosecutors out there in Washington have charged the principal and the athletic coordinator

01:23:46.000 of Rogers High School in Puyallup, I don't know how to pronounce P-U-Y-A-L-L-U-P, my apologies to

01:23:53.500 our listeners out there, Washington, with a gross misdemeanor for allegedly failing to notify

01:23:58.620 authorities after Callie Keeler, she's the alleged victim, reported that she had been sexually

01:24:03.080 assaulted by her trans opponent. The principal, this guy Smith, and the coordinator at Collins

01:24:09.280 charged July 21st with failure to comply with the mandatory reporting law. They've both pleaded not

01:24:14.400 guilty. And the law at issue says when any professional school personnel has reasonable

01:24:21.140 cause to believe a child has suffered abuse or neglect, he shall report an incident to the proper

01:24:26.420 law enforcement agency. The report must be made at the first opportunity, but no case longer than

01:24:30.820 48 hours after there was reasonable cause to believe that the child has suffered abuse or

01:24:35.880 neglect. Um, they say that they waited 55 days before doing it after they'd been informed that

01:24:43.540 Smith, uh, hold on a second. Let's see. Yeah, that's Smith. This is one of the defendants,

01:24:50.160 the principal Smith informed a school resource officer about the incident on January 30th,

01:24:54.920 what was told on December 6th, following Keillor filing a school incident report that day,

01:24:59.480 Keillor filed a report two days after her mother asked the wrestling coach for an update on the

01:25:03.220 investigation. And the coach responded that they've shut me out of the situation. So are they doing

01:25:10.740 the right thing in going after these administrators for ignoring this, even though the Pierce County

01:25:18.320 prosecutors have declined to prosecute the transgender wrestler? Shana? Yeah. Do your job.

01:25:27.160 You're a resource officer.

01:25:28.500 You're a mandated reporter by statute.

01:25:31.380 It is not your job to determine whether the facts are true or not.

01:25:34.900 If you have reasonable cause, you must do it.

01:25:37.200 What is reasonable cause, okay? 0.99

01:25:39.240 Female wrestler comes to you and says, this happened. 0.99

01:25:42.640 You can see for yourself.

01:25:44.200 You can roll the videotape and see that this is likely to have occurred.

01:25:48.100 Your job is to report it.

01:25:50.320 That's the end of your job.

01:25:51.460 That's the end of your responsibility.

01:25:53.340 Do it.

01:25:54.300 These people didn't.

01:25:55.440 And it is a crime to not report when you are a mandated reporter.

01:26:00.400 I support this prosecution. Frankly, it's not enough.

01:26:04.380 I'm disappointed with the prosecutor that they're not going to prosecute this person.

01:26:09.040 We Phil and I did have a conversation off air about the physics of this, which is interesting.

01:26:15.180 But I believe this female wrestler when she says this happened.

01:26:20.340 Yeah, here's here's what they say, Phil, in that.

01:26:24.800 This is the the non-prosecution memo by the D.A. who is writes a letter to Detective Thompson, who investigated it because they were evaluating two things.

01:26:35.460 Did they have a mandatory duty report and can they be prosecuted for this misdemeanor offense and not reporting it?

01:26:40.220 The administrators. And secondly, were they correct not to charge the transgender wrestler with with assault or sexual assault?

01:26:47.540 And this speaks to that second issue, I guess.

01:26:50.360 Well, just just the second issue.

01:26:51.820 the prosecution writes to the detective thanks for thoroughly interviewing the many witnesses

01:26:55.600 to the incident particularly those involved in the sport itself as that's the correct inquiry

01:27:00.720 as someone who has no history with wrestling i was unaware that touching in the area of genitals

01:27:04.780 and buttocks is somewhat common including the sensation that an opponent may be penetrating 0.98

01:27:09.640 genitals okay i'm i detect a woke ass washington da i'm just gonna say it the sensation that one 0.99

01:27:19.600 is penetrating genitals i'm sorry but women know if their genitals are getting penetrated or not 1.00

01:27:25.380 what the fuck is this thank you gonna keep going um apparently according to the athletic director 0.99

01:27:31.020 for rogers high school peter collins this is one of the guys charged this practice or sensation 0.99

01:27:36.240 is common enough to have a nickname in the wrestling community which she claims it or he

01:27:41.000 claims i don't know if this is a male or female da is oil checking in wrestling circles the referee

01:27:47.100 who presided over the match appears to have said that while nothing stood out to him during the

01:27:50.760 match, after watching the video of the match, he could not say that the suspect's hand placement

01:27:54.820 was, quote, anything out of the ordinary, that it seemed as though the suspect was attempting to put

01:27:59.300 the victim in a half Nelson and appeared to be attempting to lift the victim's leg to try to

01:28:03.860 turn her to her back. And that sometimes in the course of a match, it just you grab what you can

01:28:09.320 grab. That's something that happens in almost every match. You get fingers up your vagina in

01:28:14.960 almost every fucking bullshit this is bullshit i smell fucking woke administrators who are trying 1.00

01:28:21.000 to cover for a trans athlete that's my own personal opinion phil holloway well look i think that the 1.00

01:28:26.220 school should have uh reported it i think that the statute was triggered um there are some wiggle

01:28:32.260 words in there like reasonable belief and all this but if but if you look if you listen to

01:28:37.300 the the female athlete she makes the claim she's very specific she makes an outcry apparently in 1.00

01:28:44.520 the moment to her mom and she surrenders the match. You can look at the video and while you

01:28:49.320 can't see specifically, thank God, what the fingers are doing, you can see that the fingers

01:28:54.480 are in the area anatomically of where they would be to basically corroborate her claim. So I think

01:29:03.880 they should have immediately made the report. And look, if you have that type of corroboration,

01:29:12.220 the police had to do more than give this the old whitewash it is true and my son is a high school

01:29:19.220 wrestler and it is true that that it's it can be a very intimate sport there's a lot of grabbing

01:29:24.240 there's a lot of touching and by definition you know there's lots of physical contact that if it

01:29:28.660 had occurred out on the street somewhere it would be a crime but in the wrestling arena it's not

01:29:33.840 but you don't consent to a sexual assault simply because you you enter into the wrestling ring or

01:29:41.280 you step on a basketball court or anything else. And so this deserved a proper investigation.

01:29:47.220 It deserves prosecutors who are willing to look for a viable prosecution, not just say, look,

01:29:54.740 this is why we can't prosecute. It's like they were going out of their way to justify why they

01:30:01.080 just couldn't possibly prosecute this male for sexually assaulting this female. I think she

01:30:07.560 He deserves her day in court and she didn't get it.

01:30:11.360 I gosh, let me say, let me, let me set it up for you like this, that this non-prosecution memo that the DA wrote talks about how, well, there are other cases.

01:30:20.660 There's another case in which they found that a basketball player consented to, you know, basically getting punched in the face by their opponent by playing basketball because it's very contact sport.

01:30:30.840 You know, these things can happen.

01:30:32.240 You can't really sue for assault after the fact or ask for a criminal prosecution.

01:30:36.060 That is after the fact.

01:30:37.560 OK, so that's what she's kind of basing this off of. Again, I'm saying she, but I don't know if it's a woman. However, it is a woman. OK, this does not apply. This logic doesn't apply because there is another distinct possibility here. And I'm sorry to be the one to break it to this D.A., but men posing as women, the vast majority of them are autogynophiles, autogynophiles.

01:31:01.320 And what that means is it's a sexual fetish. It's not actually a gender confusion issue. It's a sexual fetish. They get turned on by dressing as women and being around women and posing as women in front of women and making women watch and participate in their fantasy. 0.90

01:31:17.520 And we should not confuse sexuality with gender. You can be an autogynophile male who likes doing this and perfectly hetero. OK, it doesn't mean you're not necessarily gay. So you can get turned on by women and want to have sex with women and still want to dress like a woman and claim you're a woman. All right.

01:31:40.240 So there is a very real possibility that this so-called trans wrestler is an autogynophile, was turned on by wearing the women's singlets, wrestling against a woman, pretending to be a woman, and that sticking his fingers up the coochie was actually very much part of his whole sexual fetish slash fantasy that this prosecutor made absolutely no allowance for. 0.95

01:32:06.280 because, of course, the knee jerk instinct would be trans people don't do anything wrong ever. 1.00

01:32:12.500 Only bitchy young women make shit up about their coochies. 0.99

01:32:17.800 OK, so you put a lot out there, Megan, and I have some thoughts and some I'm going to take 1.00

01:32:22.560 a lot of crap from you and Jonna from in just a moment. All right. So first, let's start off

01:32:27.700 with I don't agree with the statement that the prosecutors put out there and I find it a little

01:32:32.540 offensive. And their words were, any harmful and offensive touching slash penetration was a direct

01:32:39.160 byproduct of the game. And this type of behavior is sufficiently common as to be foreseeable.

01:32:44.940 Now, if they're lumping in sexual assaults where someone actually digitally penetrates someone,

01:32:49.440 I find that to be offensive. And I think it's different than a foul at the rim in basketball.

01:32:54.640 okay so we start there the second thing is i want to put my son in that wrestling onesie and i don't

01:33:03.200 know that much about wrestling but let's say it's him um wrestling someone else and someone claims

01:33:09.860 that he digitally penetrated them some way right we start the analysis with there's a difference

01:33:16.700 between believability and accuracy you jumped on the a girl would know for sure megan we don't know

01:33:23.320 this particular girl. We don't know what actually happened. A girl knows. Hold on. Hold on. I don't 0.78

01:33:29.580 disagree. A girl knows if someone's fingers are in her vagina. I don't disagree. What I'm saying 1.00

01:33:37.520 is proving that to a jury under these circumstances, OK, is a very strong, strong challenge. 0.99

01:33:45.680 the you know it isn't administrator one second my vagina had nothing in it the next second 0.98

01:33:53.120 there were fingers in there right face closed that's all you need well listen it's possible 0.99

01:33:58.820 that she be either believes it or said it because she was losing the match and she wanted to save

01:34:05.460 face and say this man that is possible this man thank you i'm just looking at motives again

01:34:10.480 pretend it's your own offspring and all of a sudden you have a different thought process on

01:34:14.620 it. Okay. Yeah. No, I don't know this girl. I don't know whether she's a hundred percent telling

01:34:18.180 the truth or not. Okay. There we go. So I do believe in the mandatory reporting that it's

01:34:23.140 not for them to evaluate who's telling the truth. Who's not report it right away. They screwed up.

01:34:28.080 And the good news is now there'll be a ripple effect and administrators won't be slow to do

01:34:32.760 that. They know they can wind up a guest of the pokey. Okay. But I'm not a hundred percent sure

01:34:39.040 that this is a case that could be proven beyond into the exclusion of every reasonable doubt

01:34:43.380 under those circumstances. 0.80

01:34:45.840 Against the trans player. 1.00

01:34:48.120 Take out trans. 0.99

01:34:49.280 You're so blinded by the whole trans thing, Megan. 1.00

01:34:51.920 I just take, let's say it's a female. 1.00

01:34:54.420 Let's say it's a female. 1.00

01:34:55.680 It's relevant. 1.00

01:34:56.300 Female on female. 1.00

01:34:57.360 It's not a female. 0.97

01:34:58.380 What are you saying? 0.99

01:34:58.960 It's not a female. 0.93

01:34:59.920 It's one female and one fake female. 0.99

01:35:01.940 I'm saying whatever applies here 1.00

01:35:03.920 would apply to a female on a female 0.80

01:35:06.080 and a male on a male.

01:35:07.420 You still have to have beyond a reasonable doubt. 0.94

01:35:09.740 You're adding this stuff about trans. 0.63

01:35:11.240 It's relevant that it's a dude.

01:35:13.380 It is relevant that it's a dude and poor and this poor girl did not even know she was wrestling against a dude, which changes.

01:35:21.420 I mean, imagine her confusion.

01:35:23.460 This is kind of what the ADF has been suggesting.

01:35:25.120 She thought another girl was sexually assaulting her, Phil.

01:35:28.700 And only after the fact did she find out they subjected her to a male with all that implies without her consent.

01:35:35.760 You know, to Mark's point, a jury can convict someone simply on the testimony of one witness if that witness is believable, if they believe one witness.

01:35:48.240 So you don't need mountains and mountains of evidence.

01:35:50.860 What you need is you need a prosecutor who's willing to give her her day in court.

01:35:55.900 You've got the statement on its face.

01:35:58.100 It makes out a crime.

01:35:59.600 It's corroborated by what you see in the video.

01:36:02.180 true. You can't see exactly where the fingers are, but you can see that they are in generally

01:36:06.360 the right place to corroborate the young woman's claims. To do a half Nelson, Phil. Come on.

01:36:12.020 Well, and look, you don't consent, Mark. It doesn't corroborate it. You don't consent

01:36:15.940 to sexual assault simply because you go into the wrestling ring. But hold on, Phil. I want to

01:36:21.740 challenge you. You don't consent to that. How does that video support the prosecution's theory any

01:36:26.080 more than it supports the defense that they're in the middle of a match and the hands are going

01:36:30.400 down there for a different amount of girls claim because it shows the other wrestlers hand uh in 1.00

01:36:37.120 the crotch area which is which is how you achieve the sexual assault that was being also how you do

01:36:43.000 a half nelson does anybody have a problem with the that's what the defense can say at trial but

01:36:47.600 the jury can convict based on this no they coined anything they called it checking the oil that's a 0.70

01:36:53.600 term of art in this fucking sport are you kidding me right now like what would have happened if this 0.99

01:36:59.020 female wrestler grabbed this boy's penis and bent it in half what is that called breaking the penis 1.00

01:37:04.820 i mean what is it called like how do you have a term of art called checking the oil and and then 0.99

01:37:10.340 not believe this girl when she claims that there i hope you're not asking me that question because

01:37:14.820 i didn't come up with that term of art i've never heard of such i think it's a crime hey hey john

01:37:19.660 would you invest your entire 401k your entire retirement that this actually was penetration

01:37:27.920 versus the hand being there and him trying to achieve a wrestling move and she believes or

01:37:34.000 made up that the hand went into her versus was just there trying to achieve a wrestling move

01:37:39.620 i know the answer to that none of you would well nobody is going to bet their 401k on anybody else

01:37:44.740 oh why would oh nice to talk on air but not put your money on it doesn't it prove anything she

01:37:50.340 wasn't getting better retirement you too megan you go john put up your money come on this is 0.87

01:37:55.460 you trying to climb out of the hole of maybe she didn't know whether the fingers were in the coochie

01:38:00.740 ladies who are out there have you ever not known whether the fingers were in the coochie i think 0.61

01:38:06.460 we've all known as you you have no right to opine on this eyeglarsh there's no coochie at whatsoever 0.89

01:38:11.940 in the eyeglarsh suit in that you don't know this may be the strangest four box i've ever found

01:38:17.480 myself in on any program ever bending the dipstick that's what i'm gonna call it bending the dipstick

01:38:24.360 fender bender yes bending the whatever any any one of those works well i think we're in agreement

01:38:31.640 that the da is doing the right thing in going after these mandatory reporters who did not do

01:38:37.260 the mandatory reporting and we are in disagreement on this ridiculous prosecution memo about why

01:38:43.240 he didn't go forward but i do agree with you iaglars that having said all that i don't know

01:38:48.700 what the credibility of Callie is.

01:38:51.860 That is something that needs to be evaluated. 0.83

01:38:54.940 It is possible she was just losing the match

01:38:56.940 and made something up.

01:38:57.720 I don't mean to impugn her.

01:38:58.860 I'm just saying I'm open-minded to that.

01:39:00.400 I'd like to hear the actual substantive defense

01:39:02.760 as opposed to,

01:39:04.620 yeah, this happens all the time in wrestling. 0.61

01:39:06.860 Oil change, oil change.

01:39:08.360 No, I don't believe it.

01:39:10.540 I don't believe it.

01:39:11.180 It sounds like woke prosecutors to me.

01:39:12.960 All right, now, Phil, I think has to go.

01:39:14.600 If not, Phil, stick around

01:39:15.580 because I do want to get to Perez Hilton

01:39:17.800 and one other case on the backside of this.

01:39:20.900 So we're going to hold over into the next hour

01:39:22.620 for just a bit.

01:39:23.860 Phil, if you do have to go, thanks for being here.

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01:40:16.460 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

01:40:19.880 I've got some exciting news.

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01:40:34.740 Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more.

01:40:40.700 It's bold, no BS news.

01:40:42.680 Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

01:40:51.840 We're back now with a host of Positively Legal, Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spillbore.

01:40:56.800 You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the MK True Crime podcast feed and YouTube channel.

01:41:02.140 You can see why I love them so much.

01:41:04.540 Mark Eiglarsh always likes to mix it up and keeps things interesting. 0.92

01:41:08.400 And Jonna takes no shit from anyone. 1.00

01:41:10.540 I'm not here to kiss your ass. 1.00

01:41:11.680 come on let's go mark i was telling steve krakauer during the break on one of our early kelly's 0.99

01:41:17.560 courts back in the day and there was some case involving someone having relieved himself in the

01:41:25.280 most vile of ways publicly and we were going back and forth and your opponent said there was no duty

01:41:32.160 to warn and you said oh there was a duty i i i would agree that it sounds like something i would

01:41:39.940 say yeah still to this day nine out of the nine out of ten ones we did were about strippers right

01:41:44.960 who inadvertently something injured someone money grabs yeah but now we're on to much more serious

01:41:51.720 matters um okay and that brings me to Perez Hilton I don't this the video was so disturbing I don't

01:41:59.380 know if you guys saw it I wasn't on TikTok when I saw it I was on X and it like clips of it were

01:42:04.800 being recirculated it was this time last week where Perez Hilton appears to have engaged in

01:42:09.600 some sort of attempt at self-harm. Can't say it more definitively than that because what I saw was

01:42:16.520 somebody who appeared to be covered in blood. I didn't see actual cuts, but I'm sure, I mean,

01:42:21.280 I believe that he had harmed himself in some way and he was looked bloody and was threatening

01:42:28.260 suicide. And then the professionals arrived. They said that they were not barging in because they

01:42:35.980 didn't want to provoke him, but eventually like negotiated him to a place where they were able to

01:42:41.680 take him to the hospital. And he's been in the hospital. His family came out with a statement

01:42:44.840 saying he needs surgery, though they didn't say what that's for. And now we get word that his

01:42:50.500 mother, he's a single dad. He had these three kids who are all very young via surrogate. There's no

01:42:56.300 mother in the picture. He's a gay man. His mother now wants custody of the three kids. But the reason 1.00

01:43:04.980 I'm bringing it to you guys is there is a real question now circulating in legal circles and by

01:43:10.480 some online who witnessed the video about whether there might be a lawsuit against TikTok because

01:43:16.820 what happened was it's sort of bizarre. The TikTok automated system flagged Perez Hilton's stream

01:43:26.860 within minutes and even removed subsequent streams, reports The Guardian. But then a TikTok

01:43:33.840 spokesperson told deadline that a quote moderator error caused a delay in shutting down the live

01:43:40.700 stream after the automated moderation systems flagged it for removal and therefore it was on

01:43:46.200 the air live for some 15 minutes which is a long time i mean i i was watching just the clips over

01:43:54.860 on x which had grabbed virtually all of it thinking how did this air like i like on youtube

01:44:01.680 we can't air like a public shooting or you know violence without it getting stricken like

01:44:09.260 immediately how how could it air on tiktok and this is apparently how some for some reason a

01:44:15.020 human being seems to have overruled the moderated the automated moderation and that's how it went

01:44:20.740 out so you know mark there's got to be some host of lawyers out there rubbing the hands together

01:44:27.120 because TikTok is very, very successful.

01:44:29.820 A lot, a lot of money.

01:44:31.280 Deep Pockets saying,

01:44:32.600 you might be immunized against random things.

01:44:36.380 Like if somebody says something on TikTok,

01:44:38.720 that's not true.

01:44:39.480 You can't get sued for defamation.

01:44:41.140 But you did something yourself here

01:44:44.400 that could potentially make you my target.

01:44:46.880 Yeah, the argument is

01:44:47.800 you've got a defective product, right?

01:44:50.280 And first, it's amazing that this aired.

01:44:52.760 People are so worried

01:44:54.820 when they're speaking on these platforms

01:44:56.720 to not even like say the S word,

01:44:59.360 they say unalive himself.

01:45:01.580 And at first I was like, why are they using that?

01:45:03.620 Oh, I get it.

01:45:05.160 So it's one thing to police content.

01:45:08.320 You know, people do live streams all the time

01:45:10.580 and it would be impossible to impose that burden

01:45:13.060 on any of these companies

01:45:14.640 to immediately stop what they're saying.

01:45:17.900 But if they have a defective product

01:45:20.520 that allows this not only to go out, 0.58

01:45:22.580 but then to hit all these people

01:45:25.360 whose algorithm attracts this type of stuff.

01:45:29.260 But the problem is,

01:45:30.920 even if for some reason you can successfully sue,

01:45:34.820 what are the damages?

01:45:36.480 The people who are attracting this type of stuff

01:45:39.600 because of their algorithm,

01:45:41.080 I'm getting fishing shows.

01:45:43.520 I'm getting cute puppies, right?

01:45:45.640 So I'm not getting this stuff.

01:45:46.860 I'm getting hair tricks.

01:45:48.100 All that.

01:45:48.800 Jonna's getting shoes and purses.

01:45:51.260 And maha stuff.

01:45:52.100 Right, and wine.

01:45:53.460 So that's Jonna, right?

01:45:54.620 So the people who are attracting this stuff, my guess is they've seen some things.

01:45:59.320 Their skin's a little thicker.

01:46:00.520 It's going to be tougher to prove damages.

01:46:03.040 I want to make one complaint.

01:46:05.500 The hair videos that I am getting are so cute, and I've never tried a single one of them.

01:46:11.440 I just look at other—they make the cutest ponytails look so easy, but I've actually never tried a single one of them, if I'm honest.

01:46:17.340 But I enjoy watching them and thinking someday, someday.

01:46:19.760 so jonna i guess the the cause of action you could potentially filed what like a class action for

01:46:28.020 intentional infliction i mean if you want to do negligent infliction of emotional distress

01:46:32.840 typically courts require some bit of physical injury that goes with it you can't just have

01:46:37.460 pure emotional damages there's not gonna be any physical injury um so you've got to go you got to

01:46:42.780 go intentional infliction and if there was an actual human making an actual decision to override

01:46:49.180 the automation. And that's a big if, you know, the Guardian's reporting possibly.

01:46:53.960 Maybe you're getting there or you're at least getting to the point where a company like TikTok

01:46:57.420 might settle. Yeah, I'm with Mark when I can't really figure out what the damages would be

01:47:03.300 if there is a bridge to some sort of legal liability. But I do think this is something that

01:47:08.320 perhaps there are going to be class action lawyers who want TikTok to be punished. And we've seen

01:47:13.700 that before with social media companies where they have to pay millions and millions of dollars.

01:47:17.540 We won't see it, but it's a way to make sure that they don't create the same situation in the future.

01:47:24.140 And I got to say, I would be exploring if I were the government, whether that human error was, in fact, intentional, because 15 minutes is a lifetime.

01:47:34.840 And how, you know, these algorithms and all the extra stuff they have going on behind the scenes, which is just so amazing.

01:47:39.980 How did one human override that for such a long period of time if there wasn't some sort of disgusting, gross intent there?

01:47:49.080 So there's there's some legal stuff that is going to fly.

01:47:52.520 I just don't know if we're going to get the benefit of it.

01:47:55.740 But something seriously went wrong.

01:47:57.700 I'm not sure what Jonna just said.

01:47:59.400 Is she alleging that someone from TikTok?

01:48:02.740 Because that's that's the only way you get a lawsuit here.

01:48:04.880 someone from tiktok had some nefarious objective and overrode their system to allow people to be

01:48:12.640 exposed for yeah i mean if you can prove that you're really in business that's a little fantasy

01:48:16.600 i don't know that's all right but that's fantasy that's where i would be looking yeah someone from

01:48:20.940 tiktok so a representative of the company which is what you'd need i think yeah somehow said this

01:48:27.540 is going to be my um prize to the public 15 minutes of his i don't see i don't see that

01:48:33.720 coming and i don't see tiktok actually paying are you gonna bet your 401k that that's not gonna

01:48:39.140 come why do you bring money into it john what's the matter with you not there's no case yeah

01:48:43.540 okay i want to keep going because the the aspect of the mother and his sister too

01:48:47.860 um reportedly getting ready to seek custody of the children and i will tell you up front i've

01:48:54.700 only seen this in in touch magazine which i've seen many many things about myself that are untrue

01:48:59.480 in that magazine. So just take it with a grain of salt. They're reporting that his mother and

01:49:04.620 sister will seek custody of his three children amid his mental health crisis. His kids are 13,

01:49:10.140 11, and 8. And I wonder whether you think this will be granted. If this is true, does this have

01:49:18.140 any chance of getting granted? Because I'm going to show you the video of Perez. We've blurred it,

01:49:23.300 but let's just put it on the board. Viewer warning, you will see what looks like a red man 0.97

01:49:28.480 because he's covered in blood but we've blurred it um and he's sort of making noises that are

01:49:34.400 almost akin to like sexual pleasure like you know like groans positive groans as he appears to cut

01:49:41.600 himself with a long blade yeah it's dark and the reports are that his children left the house

01:49:48.620 shortly before this happened i don't know that he sent them away that he told his mother to take

01:49:54.600 them or what happened but they weren't in the home would be much easier i think to get those

01:49:58.560 kids if he if they were in the home but obviously the guys had serious depression for a long time

01:50:03.560 he's on record as saying that and i just wonder what you think the chances are that a court

01:50:10.940 because of this or he says on on the tape that he's thinking about killing himself

01:50:16.160 um would say you're you're not in any condition to raise these children and um your kids are going

01:50:21.940 into the custody of your mother and sister?

01:50:23.980 Well, I think 100%.

01:50:25.340 Right now, he shouldn't be near any children,

01:50:28.260 especially his own. 1.00

01:50:29.940 And I feel for him, he's clearly got mental illness.

01:50:33.080 And I think it's in the best interest of the kids,

01:50:35.260 which is the standard,

01:50:36.340 to be with family members who love them

01:50:39.060 and would look after them.

01:50:41.000 And I think that his mother

01:50:42.760 is probably the strongest choice.

01:50:45.780 Temporarily, though, right?

01:50:46.720 Not permanently, Jonna?

01:50:48.120 Temporarily, for sure, until he gets help,

01:50:50.740 until he gets better,

01:50:51.580 until he proves to a family court

01:50:53.360 that he is no longer a threat to himself or others

01:50:56.060 and that they can reunite the family.

01:50:58.120 But that temporary order can be quite a long time

01:51:02.040 in a case like this.

01:51:03.120 It should be, it should be a long time.

01:51:05.460 Yeah, because that's clearly not well.

01:51:07.300 I saw something online last night

01:51:10.520 and I've said before,

01:51:11.740 I said when this broke last week

01:51:12.920 that I have nothing but empathy

01:51:15.520 for what Perez may be going through here

01:51:16.960 with the mental health crisis.

01:51:18.240 But I do think this is the natural culmination

01:51:20.260 of a life on the internet in which your business is cruelty. His business has been cruelty. I mean,

01:51:28.940 he's just been slinging really serious barbs and arrows at celebrities from the beginning of his

01:51:35.040 career. I don't think there's anything redeeming about what he does. I also think you can do it.

01:51:42.820 It's America. We do have shit stirrers who are out there and always have. But I do think there 1.00

01:51:48.280 are real psychic prices to pay if that's how you spend your time. And it caught up with Perez

01:51:54.900 Hilton. That's my own view. But I thought this was interesting. There's somebody who's in the

01:51:58.440 business of photography who says he knew Perez or at least photographed him once and hung out

01:52:02.880 with him another time. He's a photographer named Scott Michael Nathan. And I'm going to show you

01:52:07.640 a little bit of what he said and tell you about some more. Watch this. Perez Hilton. People have

01:52:12.600 been asking me to weigh in on this guy. And I was on the fence. I worked with the guy. I photographed

01:52:17.800 Perez for the cover of a magazine. I think it was TV guy, but I'm not positive. And I can tell you

01:52:23.200 from personal experience, he was a first class a-hole. He wasn't misunderstood. He was not edgy. 0.99

01:52:29.580 He was not a brave independent journalist speaking truth to power. He was a nasty, fat, mean, gay guy 1.00

01:52:36.340 named Mario Lavendera. And I know exactly what his brand was because I watched it from the front 1.00

01:52:41.920 row. His entire business model was built on other people's humiliations, celebrity addictions,

01:52:47.380 their divorces their breakdowns their bad photographs their relationships their bodies 0.97

01:52:53.280 their mistakes their worst effing moments he drew dicks on the faces of minors he turned other

01:53:00.940 people's pain into content and content into millions of dollars wow i don't want it i don't 0.95

01:53:08.280 want him eulogizing me well there's no eulogy necessary but there's but he posits that he's

01:53:17.940 not even sure this is real that this there's a possibility at least that this is some sort of a

01:53:23.560 stunt um possibly to attract attention now the family's saying he needed surgery they're they're

01:53:29.860 saying they're relieved he can speak somewhat so the family would have to be going along with the

01:53:34.740 whole thing and i just don't think that that's what's happening i think it's real but i can't

01:53:38.760 rule out given the way perez has spent the past 15 years that there might be some element of a

01:53:44.260 stunt he's been in the business of pitching reality shows donna to you know network after

01:53:49.140 network they haven't been getting picked up rob shooter was reporting this that like he couldn't

01:53:55.180 get anything you know um in writing he couldn't cut any deals with any of these reality tv show

01:54:01.280 producers you know they kind of string him along and then let him down whereas he has been on

01:54:06.400 reality shows in the past and um i it did occur to me that if any of that is true it could be a

01:54:15.260 defense to him in a custody battle right like if if this were a stunt that would be a great defense

01:54:23.160 to the custody battle it would be a very embarrassing chapter for him publicly and again

01:54:27.320 And for the record, I don't think it was a stunt.

01:54:28.720 But what do you make of it?

01:54:30.160 Could have been a stunt.

01:54:31.480 But I also think we can't rely on what his parents are saying.

01:54:34.360 And here's why.

01:54:35.280 His parents are only going to know what he provides.

01:54:38.020 Why?

01:54:38.360 Because HIPAA isn't going to let the parents have a straight line between what's going

01:54:41.620 on with him medically, physically, and what's actually going on.

01:54:45.280 So that could be part of the stunt.

01:54:47.120 He's telling this stunt.

01:54:48.300 He's telling the parents, oh, yeah, I've got to get surgery. 0.99

01:54:49.880 I tried to cut my balls off or whatever the hell he did off camera that we couldn't see. 0.98

01:54:53.780 But we don't know that that's true. 0.98

01:54:55.140 And if it was a stunt, I can also see a family court judge saying that is such a messed up stunt that we still think you should be divested of your children for a period of time until we make sure that you are wrapped as tight as you need to be to be a good parent.

01:55:10.700 I could see that.

01:55:13.100 That's a good point.

01:55:14.000 You agree, Mark?

01:55:15.120 Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up.

01:55:16.360 It was one of the things I was thinking, like, could this be a stump?

01:55:19.400 But I wasn't going to articulate it, particularly because it would be extremely painful if this truly is what it looks like it is.

01:55:26.680 But I'm glad you brought it up.

01:55:27.860 I think it's based upon what he's done in the past, what he's about, what he wants for the future.

01:55:33.940 I think it's relevant to throw it into the discussion.

01:55:38.700 Well, I'm sure we're going to get more updates from this family.

01:55:42.220 And I just like I don't I don't know.

01:55:45.340 Can I would I state my retirement on the definitely not being a stunt?

01:55:54.020 No, I wouldn't.

01:55:55.480 There's very few things in the news I would state my retirement on.

01:55:58.200 I really thought that James Tallarico was going to go down in flames in that Senate race down in Texas, and he still might.

01:56:03.220 But that thing's tighter than I ever predicted it would be.

01:56:05.640 And by the way, he's pulling ahead of Ken Paxton.

01:56:08.080 I realize he's got his own problems.

01:56:09.540 I'm just saying, like, not all of my predictions come true, which is sad for me, but life in the in the fast lane.

01:56:14.940 so so so it goes all right before i let you go i want to ask you one question about nolan wells

01:56:18.940 in that case um you guys have been covering this yes on positively legal you know like the latest

01:56:24.440 and how the ben crumps and the al sharptons are really trying to tar these white kids who are

01:56:29.520 friends with nolan with murder based on nothing based on nothing well now uh brandon tatum has

01:56:35.700 interviewed a couple of adults including this lawyer edward pate sick who says the following

01:56:44.560 Because let's not forget the boat that they're really zeroing in on that the Internet sleuths say included a distress call saying Nolan was dead at 430 that afternoon.

01:56:55.080 So they say there was a murder allegedly and it went down by 430 and you can hear the boys allegedly.

01:57:00.560 If you really garble the language or play the tape backward, you can hear the confession that by 430 Nolan's dead and they're not really recognizing that the CTO company they're calling has already got them on tape and you can hear their exclamations in the background.

01:57:13.300 None of this is verified. I don't believe one word of it. But here is lawyer Edward Pacek to Officer Brandon Tatum changing the timeline considerably on when Nolan was last seen alive, SOT-16.

01:57:27.840 Morgan, Warren and Jax left the island at about 4.30 p.m.

01:57:34.860 That's it. They were gone. That is not open for debate.

01:57:39.460 So that's a fact. They were gone. And at that time, Nolan Wells was still alive. Now I'm not

01:57:47.160 going to name them out of respect for their privacy, but just as one example, there are two

01:57:53.120 very fine upstanding members of the Ocean Springs community who saw Nolan Wells at about 10 minutes

01:58:01.760 to 6 p.m. So about an hour and a half after these fine young men had left the island, they were gone,

01:58:10.120 departed. Nolan Wells was alive. And these two witnesses, two very reliable, very credible,

01:58:19.820 and very upstanding members of the community, they saw Nolan. And they've known Nolan for years.

01:58:27.260 there's no chance that they made a mistake and by the way this can be corroborated through other

01:58:33.760 evidence other eyewitness accounts and that's the end of it right there and i reported the first

01:58:41.720 hour i have reason to believe the same i've i've come by similar information about two independent

01:58:47.680 adult witnesses who knew nolan who can place him on the island as as late as 10 of 6 that night

01:58:54.280 long after these boys had left the island

01:58:57.860 and long after they're allegedly on tape

01:59:00.920 confessing that he was dead, 0.97

01:59:02.360 which is just an internet bullshit 0.98

01:59:04.640 interpretation of some tape 0.98

01:59:07.040 that is garbled and indecipherable

01:59:08.760 where they called the CTO for a toe.

01:59:12.220 Jonna, what do you make of it?

01:59:13.900 Well, I mean, it adds to the intrigue of this case

01:59:17.220 along with some other things

01:59:18.460 that I still can't wrap my mind around either,

01:59:20.380 which is why we don't have Nolan's phone

01:59:22.680 because the mother apparently won't turn that over,

01:59:26.160 which isn't that going to be a huge piece of evidence here?

01:59:30.120 I mean, this is a mystery.

01:59:31.360 This is truly a mystery.

01:59:32.300 It's going to have to.

01:59:33.580 They're going to get it one way or another.

01:59:35.240 And then you have to make sure.

01:59:36.200 Now, I know that you can't fully destroy things.

01:59:39.040 You know, they're stored in the cloud, thankfully.

01:59:41.140 But what if your son is dead and you don't really know what happened?

01:59:46.480 Wouldn't you want to hand over everything you possibly could

01:59:49.820 to get to the bottom of it?

01:59:51.160 Like there's so much mystery surrounding this and everybody's quick to point the fingers

01:59:54.760 at the other two boys, but there are a lot of unanswered questions and they don't seem

01:59:58.960 to be getting answered anytime soon.

02:00:01.140 It does concern me if she has that phone and is not releasing it.

02:00:05.120 And that's what Sarah Fields is reporting.

02:00:07.840 It's not confirmed by the family, as far as I know.

02:00:11.760 Why wouldn't she want the authorities to have Nolan's phone so that a full forensic

02:00:17.980 analysis of it and what has happened on it, both prior to Nolan's death and after, could be

02:00:25.200 conducted. That's one question, Mark. And the other question is how critical these two witnesses

02:00:31.980 who can place Nolan on the island at almost 6 p.m. will be to the investigators trying to figure out

02:00:37.860 what happened. I shall start with question number one. I do believe that, well, first of all, I want

02:00:45.940 to start with you know they said that he drowned after staying behind on the island with some girl

02:00:50.920 that he found attractive there was a strong current i've yet to hear why that's not the case

02:00:55.740 i i missed that whole thing you know did anybody you megan jonna hear of anything that says that

02:01:01.600 it's inconsistent with that i nothing stood up on my back of the neck when i heard that story i'm

02:01:07.840 like okay no he wouldn't leave his friends behind he wouldn't go he's a teenager there's a girl

02:01:13.280 giving him some attention. He hangs with her. He jumps in the water, strong current, he dies.

02:01:18.120 That absolutely could happen. I don't know how we make it about race. All right, back to your

02:01:21.840 questions. The first one was, I think number two, I remember, was the time. Yeah, that's

02:01:27.420 extraordinary. Stop blaming these damn kids. They weren't even there. They left them behind because 1.00

02:01:32.040 the kid wanted to stay behind. And then that's it. And the first one was the phone, right? Yeah.

02:01:38.020 look yeah let me say this i understand either there's something that they don't want law

02:01:45.000 enforcement to see as it relates to this or what's extremely likely is i wouldn't want anyone to have

02:01:51.200 my kid's phone there's stuff on there even unrelated to this that may make him look a little

02:01:55.820 less angelic and right now that kid to a certain you know group of people in this community you

02:02:01.740 know is angelic you don't want his his name to be sullied by text and things that might be unrelated

02:02:07.920 like people have on their phone you know between friends so but as a former prosecutor i want it

02:02:13.800 you the prosecutions but they're gonna get it aren't they like how can the mother say i'm not

02:02:17.900 giving like i want you to investigate this i want you to tell me everything happened to my son but

02:02:21.560 no you can't have his phone they're gonna get a subpoena there's gonna be a grand jury proceeding

02:02:25.160 happening very soon we think in september and they should they're gonna get a subpoena and

02:02:28.920 they're going to get that phone and check everything that allegedly was deleted because

02:02:32.840 nothing's ever deleted and and see what what she didn't want you to see and they might get other

02:02:38.700 people and see whether she deleted anything right after after he turned up dead go ahead when they

02:02:43.140 get his phone that's probably going to lead them to get other people's phones so when they figure

02:02:47.860 out who he was last communicating with and what what was being said so you know it's going to come

02:02:52.960 out it's going to come out and i would want to know if i were his parent how my kid died and

02:02:57.780 why didn't he just drown why didn't he just drown somebody answer me please why didn't he just

02:03:02.980 drown maybe he did that's probably what happened that's probably that's what i think maybe there

02:03:09.020 was alcohol or some other substance that the toxicology will show us what was in his system

02:03:14.120 right and even a strong swimmer when there's a current this place is known for having strong

02:03:19.300 rips um especially if there's intoxication can drown and it can happen quickly sadly it can

02:03:25.580 happen really quickly. But one of my frustrations is, God forbid somebody actually did do something

02:03:31.200 to Nolan Wells. If somebody, and in my mind, and I have no idea whether this is right, it's not a

02:03:36.100 nefarious thing if somebody else is involved. It's like an accidental thing. You know, like somebody

02:03:40.520 was negligent and not seeing that he was going down, or maybe somebody gave him the alcohol or

02:03:45.920 the drugs and then didn't keep a good eye on him. Again, we don't have any confirmation that he was

02:03:50.920 drunk or on drugs. This is speculation. If that's what happened, then we're focused on the wrong

02:03:58.960 people because his friends were long gone. The obsessive need to tar these boys who loved Nolan

02:04:07.420 with his murder is really, I think, keeping us focused on the entirely wrong things and potentially

02:04:13.820 entirely wrong people. There is an investigation to be had here. It's just what we've learned so

02:04:19.460 far is that it does not revolve around the boys who were his friends. It's fine to look into them,

02:04:25.580 but now we have, and they have a very good, compelling, verifiable story. And the internet

02:04:33.040 sleuth community should move forward and keep, keep going if they must not, you know, if they

02:04:38.280 insist on not leaving this in the hands of law enforcement. You know, you know what I'd like to

02:04:41.820 hear, you know, I'd like to hear, and I don't think I'll ever get it is if Crump and those with him

02:04:46.820 investigate this and then they learn the following and they say the following if this

02:04:52.320 is the truth you know what we thought it might have been a race issue it wasn't he really did

02:04:57.580 drown oh i know i know i but but that would give a little bit of credibility you know just i'll bet

02:05:06.100 my 401k on that'll never happen i say same same actually oh all right guys great to see you both

02:05:13.920 Mark and Jonna, you're wonderful.

02:05:16.880 Everybody check them out on Positively Legal.

02:05:19.840 If you just Google Positively Legal or MK True Crime in your podcast search bar, you

02:05:26.280 will find it.

02:05:26.940 YouTube, same.

02:05:28.180 We are back tomorrow with Emily Jashinsky.

02:05:30.900 Looking forward to that.

02:05:32.160 See you then.

02:05:33.320 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - August 11, 2026

Lindsay Clancy ＂Postpartum Psychosis＂ Defense, Perez Hilton Legal Questions, and NEW Nolan Wells Timeline, with MK True Crime Hosts ｜ Ep. 1377

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