The Megyn Kelly Show - New Details About Hayden Panettiere's Final Hours, and Jon Ossoff's Disgusting Attack, with Rob Finnerty ｜ Ep. 1381

00:00:00.000 order up thank you no no no oh come on this is not happening turn off the water where's the

00:00:11.840 shutoff the pipe there there gosh it's everywhere are we covered for this don't know don't worry

00:00:22.240 a licensed dd insurance advisor can help you get the right insurance coverage to protect your

00:00:26.820 business. It's how we're making insurance more human. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:00:32.520 live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Happy Tuesday. We have a lot

00:00:46.880 to get to, including the latest with Hayden Panettiere's death that still has the entertainment

00:00:52.000 world rattled, could the people that enabled her addiction be held accountable? We saw that

00:00:59.580 with Matthew Perry, where he was given ketamine by his assistant. His assistant was shooting him up

00:01:07.000 with ketamine, which is a lawful drug that was being used unlawfully. And that is very possible

00:01:14.160 as anybody who's dealt with drug addiction probably knows. It's not all heroin that people

00:01:20.520 take. It's often a legal drug that you can actually get prescribed and the person gets

00:01:25.200 addicted in some way, shape or form, and then abuses it in a way that's obviously illegal.

00:01:30.820 And then if you're a Hollywood star in particular, it takes a whole team of people around you to feed

00:01:35.260 that addiction. In Matthew Perry's case, it took an assistant. It took a former drug counselor.

00:01:43.520 This is so awful. I actually didn't realize this, but I knew that a bunch of people had been

00:01:47.380 prosecuted for their role in enabling his addiction and ultimately his death. And one of

00:01:53.640 them was this guy, I mean, this is dark crap. I mean, his, the, the first person was Kenneth

00:01:59.580 Iwamasa, I-W-A-M-A-S-A, Iwamasa, 61 years old. That was his longtime live-in personal assistant.

00:02:10.200 And the guy was shooting him up. He'd been shown by a doctor how to do it, including the last day of his life when he testified that Perry said to him, shoot me up with a big one. And he did it. He made nearly all of the illegal drug buys, too, on Perry's behalf, which would make some sense, right? It's like these Hollywood stars are not going out into the alleys by themselves in the middle of night, especially somebody as famous as Matthew Perry.

00:02:36.480 and you know hayden penitier wasn't as famous as perry was but she's she was famous so it does

00:02:43.120 make you wonder who got her whatever drug she was on because we heard in the 9-1-1 call overdose

00:02:48.200 all of this has yet to be confirmed by the toxicology report which they say will take

00:02:54.400 months after the autopsy the autopsy is complete i should start i guess with the headline there

00:03:01.000 They said, once again, no foul play suspected, and that they said in the autopsy report, no signs of trauma in the autopsy report, which was obtained by the Hollywood Reporter and released by the Greenville County Coroner's Office, at least gave a statement to the Hollywood Reporter.

00:03:23.300 They say the full autopsy report is typically released months after and that it will be eight weeks before her full report is released to the public.

00:03:32.440 So if that's true, then we're looking at two months to find out what was in her system.

00:03:37.120 But in the Matthew Perry case, we knew it was ketamine and his assistant was the one buying it for him and then shooting him up with it and was the first one to reach a plea deal.

00:03:48.740 and he wound up singing like a bird against everybody else,

00:03:52.860 including this woman, Jasveen Singha, 42.

00:03:57.500 She was known as the ketamine queen,

00:03:59.400 according to the prosecution.

00:04:00.880 She admitted to running a serious drug operation,

00:04:03.640 selling Perry the dose of ketamine

00:04:04.940 that he took on the day he died.

00:04:06.720 She's in jail for 15 years now.

00:04:09.200 She's been sentenced to 15 years in prison.

00:04:12.040 That assistant, 41 months in prison.

00:04:13.860 That's three years, four months.

00:04:15.880 A guy named Eric Fleming,

00:04:17.300 that's the one who I was mentioning,

00:04:18.240 56, he, listen to this, he had been, he was a former television and film producer.

00:04:26.140 He was himself an addict.

00:04:28.360 He, he got sober and became a counselor.

00:04:32.180 He became a counselor for other people trying to get sober.

00:04:35.120 And then he badly relapsed when approached about Perry and agreed to connect the actor

00:04:42.600 with the ketamine queen to buy her product, which he did.

00:04:49.420 Prosecutors allege that this guy, Eric Fleming,

00:04:51.640 delivered 50 vials of the ketamine from Senga,

00:04:54.760 that ketamine queen, for Perry's use,

00:04:58.720 marking up the price to make a profit.

00:05:01.200 He pleaded guilty two years in prison for that guy.

00:05:03.520 And then there was the actual doctor, Salvatore Plasentia, 44,

00:05:07.680 who had written a text message to a fellow doctor

00:05:12.900 when he learned that Matthew Perry was looking for off-the-books ketamine.

00:05:17.200 Instead of saying, God, that's awful.

00:05:19.580 This is like someone pretty beloved by millions of people out there

00:05:22.940 in the American populace.

00:05:24.420 Why would I help hurt him?

00:05:26.840 Instead, he texted, quote,

00:05:28.000 I wonder how much this moron will pay.

00:05:30.860 Fucking asshole.

00:05:32.660 Well, he's in jail for two and a half years in prison now.

00:05:35.500 as a result of his role. There was yet another doctor involved in this. He ran a ketamine clinic

00:05:41.420 who was the source of doses that were sold to Perry, and he pleaded guilty to a lesser charge,

00:05:47.620 got eight months of home confinement. But that's multiple people who went to jail for their role

00:05:53.520 in what happened to Matthew Perry, caused his death. And I do seriously wonder whether there

00:06:00.380 could be similar charges if it's found that Hayden Panettiere OD'd on some sort of a drug

00:06:08.440 that she'd been given by doctors who were too willing to look the other way.

00:06:13.280 How many times have we seen this with these celebrities or huge singers? You know, I mean,

00:06:19.480 it's just like these doctors, they don't deserve that moniker. The first edict of medicine is do

00:06:24.640 no harm. So I don't think this case is over, even if the boyfriend had nothing to do with it. And I

00:06:33.500 have absolutely no satisfaction that he didn't. They were together for 24 hours, at least prior

00:06:41.300 to her death. And she had been going back and back and back to this admitted domestic abuser,

00:06:49.660 which is very common very common i've done a lot of work in this field and hayden penitier

00:06:58.380 in her cyclical relationship with a man who was punching her in the face

00:07:04.040 is actually not that extraordinary and by the way if you think it only happens to women of

00:07:10.860 low socioeconomic means or who are uneducated etc you are dead wrong dead wrong very sophisticated

00:07:19.240 well-off, well-educated women get abused all the time. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

00:07:28.680 And as I read up on Hayden's abuse by this guy, I have a lot of questions. I have more questions

00:07:37.420 today than I did yesterday about this Brian Hickerson and what role, if any, he may have

00:07:42.360 played here. I realize they're saying no signs of trauma. It doesn't look like he beat her. I'm not

00:07:46.860 suggesting otherwise, but what, what does abuse look like? Is it abuse for you to funnel drugs

00:07:56.320 to a known addict who's struggling with her addiction? Is it abuse for you to do them right

00:08:02.920 alongside her potentially? I don't know whether he did. I just know that there was some question

00:08:07.300 by TMZ yesterday about whether two people needed an ambulance and this was his apartment in which

00:08:13.360 she died. There was reportedly at least a third person. It might have been his brother or his

00:08:18.920 friend. No one's saying exactly who the third person was. They're referring to this person

00:08:24.640 generically as an acquaintance, but we'll find out. We'll know. But who gave her the drugs?

00:08:33.020 Who watched her ingest the drugs? Who, if anyone, helped her ingest the drugs?

00:08:36.800 who was responsible for the Narcan that was found next to her when the paramedics arrived.

00:08:44.320 That's a new detail we just learned. It was unclear whether it had actually been

00:08:48.780 administered in an attempt to revive her. It's a nasal spray that is used to bring

00:08:54.500 addicts who have OD'd back to consciousness. And reportedly this vial was found next to her,

00:09:02.580 but obviously did not work. And you can bet the paramedics tried to do that same thing to her

00:09:07.520 unsuccessfully. They knew it was an OD. How did they know that? That's one of the questions we

00:09:12.440 have. Was it just from pill bottles found nearby or did someone tell them? Where was Brian?

00:09:19.040 Isn't that one of your questions? Where was Brian when the EMTs showed up? What was his condition?

00:09:25.620 Was he taken to the hospital? Where is he now? What does he have to say? Because as far as I can

00:09:31.540 tell he spent the last five years beating the shit out of this woman. Absolutely no care whatsoever

00:09:38.360 for her well-being. So what role, if any, did he play? It's a fair question.

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00:10:48.940 subscription order. A-R-M-R-A dot com slash Megan. Hayden Penetier had spent the past

00:10:58.860 10 years of her life abusing herself. So it is very possible the answer is no role other than

00:11:06.360 sidekick. But there's more to be investigated around this boyfriend because now we're

00:11:17.960 we're just we're learning more about the abuse and and part of this is me looking into what she

00:11:23.680 actually wrote because she wrote that memoir and you don't have to take my word for what he's been

00:11:30.500 doing to her take her word for it this is from her memoir it's um the memoir is called this is me

00:11:38.560 came out just a couple of months ago and she writes of a valentine's day 2020 incident in

00:11:45.520 Jackson, Wyoming. Talking about how they'd been at a nearby steakhouse, they'd had dinner and drinks.

00:11:51.600 Midway through our first course, we were talking and laughing about everything from our hopes and

00:11:55.440 dreams to what movie we wanted to watch that night. After dinner, we spilled out to a bar and I told

00:11:59.920 Brian, I hope to hell there was dancing. This is my vacation, I yelled, and on vacation I dance.

00:12:05.960 God only knows how much we drank at the bar, but when we got back to the house around 2 a.m.,

00:12:10.020 we were both piss drunk. I don't remember what either of us said. All I know was that at some

00:12:15.600 point our playful banter turned hateful and our happy couple routine went to hell. There was

00:12:22.360 teasing, harsh words, resentments, defensiveness, and all those things that make a drunken fight

00:12:27.220 the most dangerous kind of fight to have. I know I let Brian have it. That's what I do after I

00:12:32.120 bottle up everything inside. And when I peeled back all those layers of denial and let my drunken

00:12:36.840 self, think about, and feel everything Brian had done in the time we'd been together. There was

00:12:42.120 only rage underneath. They had met, I think, the year earlier. It was a dangerous, uncomfortable,

00:12:49.120 uncontrollable kind of rage. Come at me. Give me all you got. You can't win, I said, taunting Brian

00:12:56.840 while we were in the midst of arguing. I always refused to play the victim, and my toughness

00:13:01.080 revealed the fact that my fight-or-flight reaction fell firmly in the fight category.

00:13:08.200 I wanted to attack because I was sure Brian was about to attack me.

00:13:12.880 What did you fucking say?

00:13:14.400 Brian snarled as he pushed me up against a wall.

00:13:17.400 What did you say to me?

00:13:19.140 I felt my head snap back and smash into the wall, and a sharp pain shot down into my back.

00:13:24.760 I braced my body to absorb the shock, and I closed my eyes.

00:13:28.880 Clap.

00:13:29.880 Brian slapped me hard, and a familiar sting radiated out from my cheek and across my entire

00:13:35.000 body. Okay, motherfucker, I am out of here, I said, as I broke free and ran upstairs,

00:13:41.180 my head throbbing, my cheek burning. I quickly considered running into a room and locking the

00:13:46.120 door, and then I heard the front door slam. Apparently, Brian had decided to walk outside

00:13:50.300 into the dark and cold. That's it, it's over, I thought, as I sat down on the top step of the

00:13:55.220 stairs. I can't do this again. I can't. Tears started falling, and I sat frozen with my butt

00:14:01.420 on the stairs, trying to decide if I should lock Brian out. I didn't want to hurt him,

00:14:06.340 but I was terrified. A good 10 minutes later, I was still unsure of what I wanted to do,

00:14:11.200 so I walked down the steps toward the front door. Then I heard a knack. Brian, I asked.

00:14:16.780 No, ma'am. A voice on the other side said, this is the Teton County Police Department.

00:14:22.000 Can you open the door?

00:14:23.460 I took a deep breath and reached for the door handle, then turned it.

00:14:26.640 Good evening.

00:14:27.240 We've had a report of a disturbance here, one of the officers said when I'd fully opened

00:14:31.200 the door.

00:14:31.520 Our colleague is speaking to this gentleman outside right now, but we'd like to talk to

00:14:36.000 you.

00:14:36.800 May we come in?

00:14:38.100 I ushered the officers inside.

00:14:39.840 As my hands started shaking and my chest tightened, I sat down on the nearest chair and opened

00:14:44.600 my mouth.

00:14:45.520 I didn't freeze and my tongue didn't thicken up.

00:14:47.920 I stopped worrying who would judge me, and I didn't think I was disappointing anyone, least of all

00:14:54.000 myself. I reassured myself that I'd been here before and I could do it again. Then I fessed up

00:15:00.480 telling the police department everything that had happened since dinner. A few minutes later,

00:15:05.200 I looked out the window toward the driveway and saw officers cuffing Brian and taking him away.

00:15:10.400 He was booked in the local jail early that morning, and at his arraignment, the judge charged him with

00:15:14.940 domestic battery and interfering with a police officer, which was tacked on because he had

00:15:19.340 refused to identify himself when the cops arrived. The next day, he was released on $5,000 bond.

00:15:25.320 We both went back to LA, but we didn't return together. As I sat on the stairs in Wyoming,

00:15:31.500 I decided once and for all that I was done with Brian and the toxic waste dump we'd found

00:15:36.400 ourselves swimming in for the past year and a half. For the first time, I really meant it.

00:15:40.740 I couldn't take him. I couldn't stand the pain, and I couldn't face the knowledge that had become

00:15:45.420 so abundantly clear since Brian had been arrested in LA, another incident. It was March 2000,

00:15:52.200 just before the COVID-19 pandemic shut the country down, and she goes on from there.

00:16:00.400 So this was Valentine's Day 2020, and she did get a restraining order against him and did

00:16:08.580 pressed charges and ultimately she would get a restraining order that was in place for five

00:16:15.000 years five years it was in place we believe up to or close to up to the day she died clearly

00:16:23.200 she wasn't requiring that it be enforced because they've been off again on again throughout that

00:16:30.520 time period period it's been you know there were there were multiple sightings of the two of them

00:16:36.540 over the course of those five years so she went back to him more than once and he was only too

00:16:45.900 glad to receive her there was one um story that was circulating out there about how he was

00:16:56.620 humiliated because in her memoir, she outed the fact that he threw a phone at her. He told her,

00:17:08.800 I'm going to give you 10 seconds to run, and then I'm throwing the phone at you.

00:17:15.880 This is exactly how it's been reported. He admitted to this incident that he didn't want

00:17:23.020 in her book, but she included it anyway.

00:17:25.240 Quote, this is him.

00:17:26.100 There's a story where I was drunk, right?

00:17:28.260 Hayden was standing across the room

00:17:29.700 and I had a phone in my hand and I said,

00:17:31.760 Hayden, I'll give you 10 seconds to run as fast as you can

00:17:34.160 before I throw it at you, he recalled.

00:17:36.780 And then he did and he hit her in the face.

00:17:41.660 He later said, who wants to read something

00:17:43.680 about themselves, right?

00:17:45.420 But you gotta be vulnerable and I did it, I did it.

00:17:48.740 Oh, that's him being vulnerable.

00:17:51.300 He told her not to do it.

00:17:53.020 How is that him being vulnerable?

00:17:54.660 She overruled him and included it in the book.

00:17:57.240 If anybody's vulnerable in that situation, you fucker, it's Hayden Penetier, not you.

00:18:03.920 She wrote in This Is Me, A Reckoning,

00:18:07.380 getting an abusive person out of your life is like trying to rip a weed out that is so entangled into your life.

00:18:12.420 And every time you pull it out, another weed pops back up and you're like, I thought I killed this.

00:18:17.760 Correction, she told that to Us Weekly about the book in May.

00:18:21.180 She added, they always managed to find a way to slither back in, even if you're an incredibly

00:18:26.040 strong-willed person. What happened in Wyoming, what I just read to you, helped push me in the

00:18:31.060 right direction, but it still took me a long time. I still struggled to fully put a kibosh to it for

00:18:37.460 a while. And that struggle would continue, obviously, until the day she died. The struggle

00:18:48.600 that she writes about that she experienced is extremely real. And as I said a moment ago,

00:18:55.900 it is all too familiar to me and any other person who spent a fair amount of time with

00:19:02.160 abuse victims. Um, when I was at NBC, I interviewed many women who were survivors of domestic

00:19:10.500 violence. And we, we actually made a point of reaching out to women who are sophisticated,

00:19:16.620 who were accomplished, who were wealthy to see if they had stories to tell. In particular, we

00:19:22.660 were hitting on the tech industry. And I mean, the women in tech are very badass. I'm sorry.

00:19:30.480 I've met a lot of them. These are, they, they, it's like women on wall street that that's what

00:19:36.080 they remind me of. They're tough. They are in a very male dominated industry, just like the women

00:19:41.580 on Wall Street, and they have got to learn to have thick skin and to get along with the bros.

00:19:46.880 Otherwise, you're not going to make it. That's just the reality. That is the reality. And they

00:19:51.360 do. They do learn how to have a thick skin and how to brush things off and how to not make everything

00:19:56.680 a federal case. Trust me, these are not thin-skinned women. And they work in tech. They're

00:20:03.840 brilliant. Many of them are multiple advanced degrees from MIT and so on. They're brilliant

00:20:08.760 and very well accomplished in their own right.

00:20:11.200 And these are the women I was talking to

00:20:13.380 who allow themselves to get punched in the face.

00:20:16.080 Now, why did they do that?

00:20:18.260 It's a very complicated list of reasons.

00:20:22.340 If you are a strong woman listening to this

00:20:26.260 and you think there is zero chance

00:20:28.680 after the first hit that I would stick around,

00:20:31.580 I urge you to reconsider.

00:20:33.180 I should be upfront.

00:20:35.040 This has never happened to me.

00:20:36.080 I feel like I'm talking like somebody

00:20:37.480 to whom it's happened

00:20:38.460 and thank god that that has not happened to me but i know people to whom it's happened

00:20:42.480 and it's not true that you would necessarily walk out after the first hit there's a reason

00:20:49.800 like hayden penitiera was very damaged but she was very feisty and there's a reason she stayed

00:20:56.560 and there's a reason um my my one guest on nbc that i'm thinking of today neha rostogi stayed

00:21:04.300 and Neha worked at Apple and she helped invent Siri and FaceTime so this woman is very very bright

00:21:13.940 and she married an Indian man she's Indian she married an Indian American she married an Indian

00:21:20.740 man via an arranged marriage chosen by her parents when she was age 24 and it's one of those things

00:21:28.600 where things are great until they're not great.

00:21:32.300 Everything's wonderful.

00:21:33.220 In fact, usually an abuser is a love bomber

00:21:35.320 who sweeps you off your feet

00:21:36.760 until that first punch across the face.

00:21:39.740 And then your whole worldview has been completely rattled.

00:21:44.620 And then the bargaining begins for a lot of these women.

00:21:46.940 Like, it's not real.

00:21:47.660 It's not really happening to me.

00:21:48.520 He's sorry he was drunk.

00:21:49.500 He didn't mean it.

00:21:50.280 Or a lot of self-blame.

00:21:51.880 I heard this from all of them.

00:21:53.400 It was me.

00:21:54.040 I provoked him.

00:21:54.700 Like you heard Hayden in that write-up.

00:21:56.940 You know, I told him to do it.

00:21:58.600 I said, give it your best shot. Okay. I guess she's just telling a story, but the truth is

00:22:03.620 none of that is relevant. I could say to Doug in our most fierce argument ever, give it your best

00:22:09.660 shot, do it, punch me in the face. And he would never, never, never. Some men are built differently

00:22:16.600 and unfortunately, unfortunately for Hayden and for Neha, they found themselves in that situation.

00:22:22.420 Let me just play something of Neha in my interview with her describing the abuse.

00:22:31.300 He has hit me in my head, pulled my hair, pushed me, slapped me, punched me.

00:22:40.900 Just months after her dream wedding, Neha says the nightmare began.

00:22:45.860 She says Abhishek was angry because a movie they'd gone to see was sold out.

00:22:49.480 And then he kept getting angrier and angrier in the car.

00:22:53.120 And then, she says, when they got home.

00:22:56.160 He slapped me and he pushed me. I fell down.

00:22:59.400 He even kicked me in the belly and I was in such utter complete shock.

00:23:05.620 Neha says she spent the night on the floor where her husband had beaten her.

00:23:09.840 There were no apologies the next day.

00:23:11.840 You know that there are millions of women out there who are saying,

00:23:15.420 that would have been it the first hit i would have been out of there no it doesn't work that

00:23:22.040 way thoughts that came to me were fear what this man is capable of a lot of regret like what did

00:23:30.320 i walk into is this how it's going to be and then my family i have never known divorce when the baby

00:23:36.460 was just three months old a mail carrier witnessed abhishek hitting neha outside their home the

00:23:42.440 mailman called the police abhishek was arrested and charged with spousal battery but then he

00:23:48.120 called me from jail he sounded so broken you had empathy for him yes she had empathy for him

00:23:58.220 in this next sound bite you're going to hear that how he behaved when he got out of jail

00:24:05.280 and also the audio that Neha took of her husband and you will hear this is very rare for an abuse

00:24:16.020 victim to actually get any of it on camera this is audio she used the iphone parts of which she

00:24:22.460 helped create to tape the abuse because she understood full well that it was going to be a

00:24:27.820 he said she said listen here watch Neha not only bailed him out of jail she hired an attorney to

00:24:34.320 defend him. I can't leave him in this state. I will get him out of this mess and maybe then we

00:24:41.440 can talk about it. Abhishek pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor charge of disturbing the peace.

00:24:46.840 He was sentenced to two years of probation and domestic violence class. How much longer after

00:24:52.080 that 2013 huge incident did he lay hands on you in anger again? I would say pretty quickly after

00:25:01.100 the 52 week class was done by 2016 neha got bolder she took out the tool she had once worked on so

00:25:09.180 hard and used it to record abhishek's behavior what is the bug come on what's the bug in this

00:25:18.220 recording neha says abhishek was grilling her on her computer know-how and it became physical

00:25:24.060 Neha, I'm using Recipes app.

00:25:27.300 Listen carefully.

00:25:28.820 Those thudding sounds?

00:25:29.820 What will you do?

00:25:30.820 I will fix it.

00:25:32.820 Neha says that's the sound of her husband slapping her.

00:25:36.020 Tell me.

00:25:37.020 Keep that link or remove it.

00:25:40.020 On another day, she captured this threat.

00:25:41.940 Yeah, I would like to see you murdered.

00:25:44.880 I actually imagine I can now relate to doing that to you.

00:25:49.720 Got so bad, Neha said, she started planning for her own death.

00:25:55.660 Incredibly dark.

00:25:57.460 So she bails them out of jail, very common.

00:26:00.740 So many times these domestic violence victims will not testify against their abuser because

00:26:06.520 they're afraid.

00:26:07.760 And also they're just almost brainwashed into being part of it, you know, to not complicit,

00:26:15.520 but just part of it.

00:26:16.320 Like, I don't press charges.

00:26:18.660 he's going to change. And, you know, they, they, it's not all coercion. Like I'm afraid he's going

00:26:24.660 to beat me. If I testify against him, that is a piece of it, but it's also that they believe in

00:26:29.820 these guys, like they're, they've been abused so much that they fall into a pattern of,

00:26:38.340 you know, I brought it on myself. I'm to blame for this. I've got to help get him out of this.

00:26:44.520 It's not fair to him. He's misunderstood. All of the excuses. So when I read the Hayden

00:26:50.920 Panettiere story with respect to this guy, it does make some sense to me. And now there is

00:26:58.600 new information about Brian. NBC is citing a report saying that he was there when she was

00:27:07.820 found, that he did not become visibly emotional until she was declared dead at the scene.

00:27:14.520 His brother, Zach, was reportedly very emotional while emergency medical service professionals were working on Hayden.

00:27:22.520 So there you have it.

00:27:26.140 Brian was there, unemotional, until she was dead.

00:27:29.680 Boy, that's on brand.

00:27:31.480 And the brother was emotional, understanding what had happened.

00:27:34.660 They met, per the Daily Mail, the summer of 2018.

00:27:39.840 She was newly single, recently out of rehab, and hoping to make a fresh start.

00:27:44.520 Her ex-fiance, Ukrainian boxer Vladimir Kichko, had obtained in 2018 full custody of their

00:27:52.040 three-year-old daughter, Kaya, thanks to Panettiere's postpartum depression and alcoholism.

00:27:59.360 So her brother, Panettiere's brother Jason, who also died a few years ago of a congenital

00:28:04.940 heart defect, but also was said to have been struggling with substance abuse, he's five

00:28:10.080 years younger than her, he suggested they go out in West Hollywood and have a good time.

00:28:13.320 There she met at some wildly popular gay bar called The Abbey, Brian Hickerson.

00:28:20.320 Hickerson, an aspiring actor, reports the Daily Mail, and a real estate agent from South Carolina,

00:28:25.320 she died in Greenville, swept Panettiere off her feet at lightning speed, she writes in her memoir.

00:28:31.320 Within several weeks, weeks, they were living together at her Los Angeles home, dancing in her

00:28:36.920 living room, redecorating, playing board games, and watching practically every Netflix series ever made.

00:28:41.760 I finally began to feel beautiful again, she wrote, praising his smile and his sense of humor.

00:28:48.060 I also started to feel safe, loved, and cherished. It was like Brian and I were

00:28:53.280 two best friends living together under one roof.

00:28:58.960 This is so, you know, didn't we just talk about this with Maureen on Thursday? We just talked

00:29:05.280 about Shanann Watts, the widow of, sorry, the decedent, the victim of Chris Watts and how she

00:29:18.160 had just gotten out of a bad relationship when she met Chris and was like, he's great. This is a much

00:29:24.720 better choice. This is going to be life-changing so much so that she married him. And here's Hayden

00:29:29.320 Panettiere, not out of a bad relationship, though. I mean, they didn't get, she didn't

00:29:34.880 stay together with the Ukrainian boxer who was the father of her child. So I'm going to guess it

00:29:39.380 wasn't, you know, all rainbows and unicorns because they got engaged and then it fell apart.

00:29:44.880 But I'm not impugning him. I'm just saying she had just gotten out of a relationship. But more

00:29:49.600 importantly to me, she had just gotten out of rehab. So this is a woman unsteady who's made

00:29:54.240 some very poor choices. It's not great to lose your daughter thanks to your alcoholism and your

00:30:03.760 substance abuse. And now your engagement to the daughter's father has fallen apart. And then you

00:30:09.620 go to a gay bar, which is not a great place to meet your future husband either. And here is

00:30:15.140 Brian Hickerson, an aspiring actor, a great, and a real estate agent. So it's not going well.

00:30:23.440 And then it sounds like he love-bombed her.

00:30:25.700 And again, a terrible decision.

00:30:28.000 She moved in with him.

00:30:29.520 She moved in with him, she writes in the memoir, within weeks at her home.

00:30:34.320 He moved in with her.

00:30:35.740 He appears to have been the freeloader.

00:30:37.600 That's how it looks to me.

00:30:39.400 And you don't have somebody move in with you within weeks.

00:30:43.040 Don't live with somebody before marriage.

00:30:44.700 I've done it.

00:30:45.560 I speak from experience here.

00:30:48.580 I lived with my first husband before we got married.

00:30:50.560 I did not live with Doug before we got married. And I have to say, it does change things. It's

00:30:55.380 not the only thing that changed things, obviously, but it does change things. The marriage is

00:31:00.880 elevated in its feeling of specialness, its feeling of uniqueness, of importance, when you

00:31:08.260 haven't been practicing, faking it for months and months and months, playing husband and wife when

00:31:14.740 you're not. And you certainly don't move in with somebody after a few weeks. When you're just out

00:31:22.360 of rehab, you're struggling with your alcoholism, your drug addiction, the trauma of losing your

00:31:28.120 child to the daughter's father. You participated in this whole thing. It's not that she died. It's

00:31:34.980 that she willingly let the father have custody given her own issues. This is no time. Ladies,

00:31:40.660 we call these things home to us we call these bad experiences or bad actors home to us and the

00:31:48.120 answer in every case is to examine ourselves it we can cast the blame on these bad actors all we

00:31:56.020 want and there's no question they deserve plenty of it but why are we bringing these patterns to

00:32:02.240 ourselves only you can answer that and honestly it requires work you need to find i i know there's

00:32:09.260 big pushback on therapy in today's day and age. I don't agree with it. If you find yourself the

00:32:14.260 right therapist, they can be a game changer. I have therapists who I had since Yardley was born.

00:32:18.820 Yardley's 15 now. And he's more like a life coach than anything else. I adore, I live for this guy.

00:32:25.440 He's wonderful. He's so wonderful. I would never tell somebody that they shouldn't get their own

00:32:32.560 version of this person in their life. I just think if you find the right therapist, God,

00:32:37.760 It can be life-changing for you, and anybody who's got a pattern of bad relationship calls

00:32:45.640 or self-care decisions, etc., absolutely has to do something game-changing to stop old

00:32:51.760 bad patterns, and I wish Hayden Penetier had done that before she decided to date Brian

00:33:01.660 Hickerson and let him be the one to make her feel beautiful again because truly like that

00:33:08.420 that too has got to come from you whether you feel beautiful or you don't has got to come from you

00:33:15.300 and if you are relying on a third person to make you feel beautiful again that's that's a sign

00:33:24.480 that's a gift actually it's just a tap on the shoulder that you got work to do you

00:33:30.720 something about you is causing you to feel some sort of self-loathing so work on it maybe you

00:33:38.380 need to get more interesting join a book club maybe you need to fill your life with more

00:33:43.060 new and challenging things take a music lesson go back to school go to community college go online

00:33:50.780 um you know go do something online at liberty university or something like there's so many

00:33:58.020 potential options where you can learn and stimulate your brain and make yourself a more compelling

00:34:04.840 person. Guys, take an etiquette lesson. It actually will make you more attractive. You know, learn how

00:34:13.320 to take care of a woman. Shepherd her, you know, with your hand on her back when you're crossing

00:34:19.480 the traffic. You be the one on the side where the cars are coming from. Stand up when a woman

00:34:24.300 enters the room, you know, you put your best foot forward, start to feel better about yourself

00:34:30.480 because no woman is going to make you feel that way. And no man is going to make you feel that

00:34:33.960 way. You have to do it for yourself with your own good choices, good behaviors, and deposits into

00:34:39.480 your own psyche and wellbeing and wellness and physicality. You know, if you don't feel like you

00:34:46.400 look good, you generally will not think you're beautiful. And that's very solvable for, you know,

00:34:52.480 modern medicine for among other things can help people who thought they could never lose a few

00:34:56.460 pounds, et cetera. Um, all this business of, I started to feel safe, loved, and cherished.

00:35:01.480 That's our mother's fault. That's our parents' fault. If your child gets to the age of majority

00:35:06.160 and doesn't feel safe, loved, and cherished, you blew it. You failed at your job as a mother or

00:35:14.520 father. You did, you failed. That's the ultimate F. You got an F as a parent. You made a bunch of

00:35:19.960 money off of your daughter. You probably have a super nice car and a big house. You failed.

00:35:25.840 You've raised someone to the age of majority who doesn't feel safe, loved, or cherished.

00:35:32.160 You're a loser. Both parents here. I don't give him a pass just because he was a fireman.

00:35:37.340 What do you do to protect your child? Why? Why by the time she reached adulthood,

00:35:43.540 and by the way, both children wound up hooked on some sort of substances.

00:35:47.840 did she not feel loved or cherished by anybody what the hell can you imagine moms and dads out

00:35:56.200 there right now if your child said that publicly how disgusted you would be with yourself where

00:36:02.340 were you what were you doing did you feel cool at your job j-lo as your child was turning trans

00:36:08.680 it's like i you have you don't have to bring children into this world you really don't don't

00:36:15.560 do it if you don't like i'm actually not that judgmental of these liberals who are like i just

00:36:19.140 want to be on my own and go to europe great if that's how you are do that it's much better than

00:36:25.320 having children just because you think it's expected of you but if and when you bring them

00:36:29.020 into the world you must raise them and you must raise them well and lovingly you must it's it's

00:36:34.880 part of the societal cultural content contract not to mention a religious one it's it's required

00:36:40.200 of you. As a Christian, you must. They must honor and respect you and you must take care of them

00:36:47.180 with a loving, firm hand. Anyway, it's just, it's infuriating to think that she spent her

00:36:57.060 last 24 hours with him. They split. The Daily Mail goes on. Well, first day after the I felt

00:37:05.180 beautiful again and so on. He was arrested and charged with domestic violence in 2019, so it

00:37:10.320 didn't even take him a year, and 2020. The final incident saw him sentenced to 45 days in California.

00:37:16.580 The troubles did not end there. In May 2022, the pair had a wild fight inside the bar of

00:37:22.340 the Sunset Marquee Hotel in LA, and Hickerson was photographed being restrained by a bystander,

00:37:28.920 seemingly missing a shoe. It's a real stand-up guy. Panettiere was reportedly overheard yelling,

00:37:34.280 Brian jail, a reminder that he was still on probation and also, from what I read, still

00:37:39.720 under a restraining order that had been issued in 21. They split seemingly for good in July

00:37:45.400 2022. She recalled in excruciating detail the beatings in her memoir, and he on publication

00:37:53.240 owned his past behavior, calling the book an essential read. Then they appeared to reconcile.

00:37:59.440 on Saturday

00:38:01.380 Panettiere and Hickerson

00:38:03.980 flew from LA to South Carolina

00:38:05.520 on Sunday she was found dead

00:38:06.880 24 hours

00:38:09.620 again we don't know

00:38:12.220 what role if any he had

00:38:13.660 supplying her the drugs

00:38:14.980 or watching her do the drugs

00:38:16.680 possibly encouraging the drugs

00:38:18.620 but I'll ask you this

00:38:21.280 do you think she felt good

00:38:23.120 being back with him

00:38:24.620 do you think it was

00:38:27.660 you know

00:38:29.440 something that made her feel good about herself or her career prospects to be back with this man

00:38:35.320 who had serially abused her, who she knew was a loser. She knew it. Do you think it's an accident

00:38:43.060 that when with him, she resumed her substance abuse and OD'd? You know, do you think if she

00:38:51.300 had gone to anyone in her life, anyone who had loved her objectively, she might've avoided that

00:38:57.780 fate. Can we roll that soundbite from yesterday, Deb, of Brian Hickerson? This is, we played it

00:39:06.060 yesterday. But I just want you to hear it again, because you can hear his final answer that even

00:39:16.760 he knows her life will be better if she just gets away from him. And yet his selfishness

00:39:23.920 couldn't be tamped down. It would rule the day. Because when she came back to him,

00:39:32.280 he took her, obviously with open arms. Do we have it, Deb? All right, we're going to get it.

00:39:39.120 I know, I know. We'll bring it over. It's in yesterday's rundown. That's how our soundbites

00:39:44.340 work. It takes a second to move them. But in the meantime, there's a little of him talking about,

00:39:50.600 you know his allegedly reformed self and this is from may when he sat down with tmz oh we have it

00:39:58.200 okay so first first this one i think it's all from the same interview if i'm not mistaken but

00:40:03.060 listen to him acknowledge that he knows she'll be better off without him you ever think about

00:40:10.600 one day marrying her yeah of course is it something that you think could still happen

00:40:16.860 I hope so. I'm sorry. She probably don't think the same way, but, you know, it's a, you know.

00:40:29.160 Do you think it's better for her to not be with you?

00:40:32.660 I think that Hayden is one of the most talented people I've ever met in my life.

00:40:39.500 And I would be an idiot not to walk away from her and let her bulwish in her career.

00:40:49.040 So we probably wouldn't be good together.

00:40:55.740 Well, you are an idiot.

00:40:57.620 You're an idiot.

00:40:59.000 It's obvious what adult you are.

00:41:01.980 But he knew.

00:41:03.040 So here he is talking about that 2020 incident that I just read the excerpt of from her memoir, Satu.

00:41:10.860 So one of the things she talked about, she did an interview with Us Magazine talking about the 2020 incident that happened between you two.

00:41:18.960 And she said, what happened in Wyoming helped push me in the right direction, but it still took me a long time and I still struggled to fully put a kibosh to it for a while.

00:41:28.620 she seems to be talking about the incident that happened with you guys in 2020 on valentine's day

00:41:33.880 where you were arrested for domestic abuse for allegedly punching her what happened what happened

00:41:40.760 that night brian yeah i had a lot to drink and uh i got physical with her um and uh i got arrested

00:41:50.620 that spent night in jail and um you know that's just what happens when he lay hands on women

00:41:59.220 i mean could he sound any dumber good gracious he sounds like an absolute fool i mean honestly i

00:42:11.060 like i know we're not supposed to use this word but he sounds retarded it's it's egregious how

00:42:18.560 dumb this man sounds that she was spending any portion of her life with him because

00:42:22.140 she was, she was smart. You could tell she may have, may not have accomplished that much in the

00:42:28.160 way of a university degrees, but who cares about that when you could hear her, when she spoke about

00:42:32.560 herself, her life, et cetera, this girl was bright, very bright. Um, there's a little bit

00:42:40.700 more from this interview, which I want to play you with Brian Hickerson. And, um, here he goes

00:42:47.940 on to talk about how he's been working on himself. Saw three. So, you know, Hayden did say that you

00:42:54.380 are abusive, but you have been working on yourself. Uh, do you mind sharing what you've

00:42:59.400 been doing lately? Uh, yes, I have been working on myself. Uh, Shilabov, uh, leads our AA group,

00:43:11.120 the isolators. The man saved my life. He introduced me to my sponsor, JJ, and we have a very good

00:43:27.660 group. Good Lord. I don't think it's working out so well, Brian. Pretty sure that when you go

00:43:36.000 through the program. They don't encourage you to, at a minimum, let someone you purport to love

00:43:42.540 OD in front of you. Kind of think it's a fail for you in addition to the parents and the agents and

00:43:51.240 whomever else was surrounding Hayden Penetier charged with her care, charged with looking out

00:43:57.640 for her. I realized she was a grown adult. She was 36 years old. She wasn't 16 like she was when she

00:44:03.960 started in this business that they're about. But she still had people around her who were

00:44:09.820 supposed to be looking out for her, who were supposed to care about her. I do at 55. Don't

00:44:13.600 you? We all do. We have certain people in our lives whom we care about and who are supposed

00:44:18.840 to care about us and to whom our welfare actually is very top of the list. Where was hers? Where

00:44:27.520 were her people? It was supposed to be this loser. My God, what a terrible fucking choice.

00:44:33.960 it's just such a waste and by the way you know she was failed at every turn hollywood

00:44:41.100 you know the sexual abuse that she allegedly suffered the compromised positions she was

00:44:48.300 placed in by another woman who she did the courtesy of not outing there's a lot of speculation online

00:44:53.660 if you want to go google it on who it was that person has denied it she's not a household name

00:44:59.100 but she's some D-list loser. But that too never should have been allowed in this industry that

00:45:10.120 she signed up for. She was supposed to be acting. That's it. Just like news. You do the news.

00:45:16.600 You shouldn't have to be sexually harassed in order to have a job doing the news.

00:45:20.300 In Hollywood, you shouldn't have to sleep with somebody, get in bed with somebody naked who you

00:45:24.860 don't want to sleep with because you want a job and someone was recirculating this clip of

00:45:30.760 charlize theron this is from 2019 on the howard stern show describing her experience when she was

00:45:39.700 18 and new to hollywood watch it was my first audition ever oh my god i had never i was i had

00:45:49.160 just turned 19 i might have still been 18 i had never been on out for an audition i asked this

00:45:55.000 modeling agent if she heard of anything like i was going to give this acting thing a try she said

00:45:59.580 yep go to this guy's house it's on saturday at nine seth all of your auditions are done at my

00:46:05.280 house on saturdays at nine in the morning when you're a little foggy you're a little your guard

00:46:09.720 is down no it was 9 p.m oh my god oh we didn't call the date yeah 9 p.m there should be a law

00:46:15.760 against that right i mean but but you would think your agent or somebody well i didn't have an agent

00:46:20.640 but you think somebody would have thought i don't think she had a clue either she was just like i

00:46:25.220 guess this is what they do and the guy's a big deal and he's famous he was a very big deal and

00:46:29.720 is still a big deal so on a saturday night at nine o'clock you go over to audition for a film

00:46:37.380 yeah and and how does that play out what happened he i knocked on the door and he opened up uh the

00:46:43.880 door and he was in his pajamas and then we sat down and we started talking he said very close to

00:46:49.200 me that was strange the drinking bothered me I was like this is doesn't feel right I kept kind

00:46:54.980 of saying as he was asking me questions about me I said I've never done this so just tell me like

00:46:59.920 I have these pages do you want me to read these pages and he was like no no no no this is I'm

00:47:05.020 just gonna we're just gonna talk and then at one point he put his hand on my knee and that's when

00:47:10.580 I just went, ooh. And it's crazy. And girls talk about this where you just go blank. Like you don't

00:47:18.100 know what to do. But I left. Good for you. But you should tell us who that man is.

00:47:25.980 Because I guarantee you there are 16, 17, 18 year old girls right now who are getting the same

00:47:31.060 treatment who might not get up and walk out because they're too scared or intimidated.

00:47:35.340 and you have lots of power in Hollywood and could easily name this person.

00:47:40.000 Could easily name this person.

00:47:41.300 Why wouldn't you name this person now that you're an A-list Charlize Theron actress?

00:47:44.900 I don't get it.

00:47:46.660 You know, it's, and by the way, you know, she played me in a movie and she, when she

00:47:51.440 did a press tour for the movie, actually had the nerve to say that when it came to telling

00:47:56.800 the story of Roger Ailes, I was quote, late to the party.

00:48:00.220 Absolutely.

00:48:00.780 She was late to the party, she said.

00:48:03.480 And I remember laughing, saying, bitch, you were never at the fucking party.

00:48:06.620 You're in Hollywood.

00:48:07.520 You've never told a single story about what allegedly happened to you.

00:48:11.500 And it's obvious that you have.

00:48:13.060 Well, so she finally tells one.

00:48:15.340 And in telling it, she doesn't name names.

00:48:17.460 So she allows the guy to stay out there even now that she's got all this power.

00:48:22.200 And, you know, like lambs to the slaughter.

00:48:25.700 Let him go in there.

00:48:26.540 I don't care.

00:48:29.440 So much for your judgments on other people.

00:48:32.580 I think they will get to the bottom of what killed Hayden Penetier.

00:48:37.800 I think that toxicology report will tell us everything we need to know.

00:48:42.320 And I actually think there could be arrests made because she's so high profile,

00:48:48.380 because the guy with her is, in my opinion, such a villain.

00:48:52.580 And there's another shoe to drop here because this has been going on for a long time.

00:48:58.840 You know, I will say the one wrinkle in it is she apparently had a very bad back injury not too long ago and had pinched nerves in her back after being thrown from a zebra while on set on some movie.

00:49:12.620 And that had caused major back problems, which would justify a pain prescription, pain pill prescription.

00:49:19.700 But whatever happened inside that house was not justified.

00:49:24.220 And I want to know exactly the condition that he was into.

00:49:28.060 Why was there a report that two ambulances were needed?

00:49:32.760 Okay, all of this we deserve to know.

00:49:36.140 In our next hour, we're going to move on to other news, including the despicable attack

00:49:41.240 that John Ossoff just launched, forget against President Trump, that's bad enough, but against

00:49:48.540 a young female cancer survivor working for the president, whom he was so determined to

00:49:56.560 smear, the president, that he didn't give two shits about labeling this staffer in a way that

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00:51:49.120 I want to tell you that every evening here on the Megyn Kelly Show feed, we are airing

00:51:55.480 crime specials just for the summer, and we are calling it MK Confidential.

00:52:01.280 This week, we are featuring the case of the Beltway Snipers, a deep dive on the sniper

00:52:06.300 duo who terrorized the East Coast back in 2002 and actually the entire country.

00:52:12.720 This is one year after 9-11 and the anthrax attacks, and if you did not live through it,

00:52:20.560 and if you did as well, you're going to want to hear this series. It's just stunning when

00:52:25.300 you go back through what actually happened. It's god-awful. Here's a clip from episode one.

00:52:32.200 And for a major American city, the seat of the federal government, this changes how that city

00:52:38.300 does life day to day gas stations hang tarps and bed sheets between the gas pumps and the road

00:52:45.580 so a driver can fill the tank behind a curtain people pump gas crouched down ducking below the

00:52:51.660 roof line of their cars schools pull the shades and cancel recess the high school football games

00:52:58.380 and the track meets are called off and the local soccer league cancels its practices shoppers cross

00:53:04.780 the lot to their cars at a fast weaving walk because someone has decided that a zigzagging

00:53:09.760 target is harder to hit and no one can prove them wrong. Children are walked from the school bus to

00:53:16.060 the door in clusters while the teachers surround them and scan the tree lines. Ministers rewrite

00:53:22.360 their Sunday sermons. The malls empty out and along the roads where people were shot, the shops

00:53:28.440 watch their customers disappear. You got to tune in to episode two tonight. It airs at nine and

00:53:37.160 then of course is available thereafter and new episodes all week on the Megyn Kelly YouTube

00:53:41.360 channel and podcast feeds. Joining me now picking up where we left off last hour is Rob Finnerty.

00:53:47.440 He is the host of Finnerty, which airs at 8 p.m. Eastern on Newsmax. Rob, welcome back. Your

00:53:53.900 thoughts on the death of Hayden Panettiere and this loser boyfriend having been there when she

00:54:01.260 died? Yeah, Megan, it's great to be back. Thank you for having me. You called him a dole. And

00:54:05.700 I think you're absolutely right. What a complete loser. Why would anybody be with somebody like

00:54:11.660 that? But tragically, there are so many women who are in relationships with people just like this

00:54:16.340 guys that go to gay bars to try to pick up women. I didn't know a lot about Hayden Penetier before

00:54:24.720 this happened a day ago. I did not know Nashville or Heroes. When I heard that she was in Remember

00:54:32.000 the Titans, that's where I was like, okay, I remember who this is. But in her book, when she

00:54:38.480 wrote safe loved and cherished this all goes back to parents i have little children and that is your

00:54:47.040 entire job the second you decide to have children that is your job to make them feel loved and

00:54:53.840 cherished but most importantly probably safe and you think about hayden penitier who was she with

00:55:00.940 who does she have her 11 year old daughter with the world heavyweight champion boxer vladimir

00:55:05.880 Klitschko. The guy literally is one of the, he was like the Mike Tyson of the early and mid 2000s.

00:55:11.360 He and his brother, they're both Ukrainians, so they spend a lot of time in Ukraine now. But

00:55:15.900 talking about wanting to feel safe. And then you think about, I think about Lindsay Lohan. Of

00:55:20.760 course, she's still with us and I'm glad she is, but she dates older men or has dated older men.

00:55:25.640 Think about Marilyn Monroe, Norma Jean. All she ever wanted was somebody to take care of,

00:55:31.480 to feel safe. That's why she dated John F. Kennedy and RFK and Joe DiMaggio, like the most famous

00:55:37.200 baseball player of his time. And Arthur Miller, the most famous playwright of his time. All these

00:55:42.520 women want- He was such a prick to her. A complete prick. Same age, by the way. I think they were

00:55:46.340 both 36 years old when they passed, Marilyn Monroe and Hayden Penetier, I think. But all

00:55:53.060 they want to do- Yeah, they were. Yeah. All they want to do is find somebody that can

00:55:57.420 fill the void that their parents should have been filling their entire lives.

00:56:01.760 And this girl, Hayden Panettiere, she was in a commercial.

00:56:04.780 She started her career at 11 months old, which is a mistake, by the way.

00:56:09.300 If you're like a stage mom, stop doing this to your children.

00:56:13.540 Stop.

00:56:14.020 And you can look.

00:56:14.680 There is a line, Megan.

00:56:15.960 There is a line.

00:56:16.660 You think about the Brat Pack and a lot of those actors.

00:56:19.980 Sure, they got into drugs, but many of them went on to have amazing careers.

00:56:24.100 Demi Moore, Rob Lowe, Matt Dillon. But these McCarthy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Maybe not Molly

00:56:32.000 Ringwald as much now that I think about it. I don't know what happened to her. She's annoying.

00:56:35.540 Yes. Yes. She's out there lecturing us on on woke films and bashing John Hughes,

00:56:40.400 who made her a household name for being too bro-tastic. Yeah, she's I would agree. She's

00:56:46.240 utterly useless at this point. But they started more in their their teenage years. But this is

00:56:51.600 just, it's a sad story. And I think, like you said, there is a lot more to come once we start

00:56:57.340 getting the autopsy results. And we learn about more about, about Brian Hickerson. Why would you,

00:57:02.940 what's wrong with this guy? By the way, that 10 step program or 12 step program that you're in

00:57:07.500 with Shia LaBeouf, it doesn't appear to me like it's working. Just my opinion, but it doesn't

00:57:12.480 seem like it's been very effective. Yes. Yeah. Agreed. I know. And you know, it's like,

00:57:18.020 I saw some commentary online earlier today saying, look, I think Justine Bateman, who I really like, was one of the people who said this.

00:57:27.040 Hollywood is a place like any other place.

00:57:29.000 It's got good actors.

00:57:29.840 It's got bad actors.

00:57:31.220 But you are still you.

00:57:34.760 Like she was I may be bastardizing it, so I don't want to base it on Justine.

00:57:39.380 But there was a fair amount of commentary that basically said if you raise a solid child with a strong id and send them to Hollywood, they'll be able to handle it.

00:57:48.020 It's not, it's, it's really, you can't just blame Hollywood. In other words, for Hayden

00:57:51.380 Penitre's downfall or any other actresses downfall, like blame her parents. Okay. So yes,

00:57:56.680 the parents, for sure, we are blaming them, but that doesn't absolve Hollywood because we're

00:58:02.680 talking about child actors. And she was very young when she first started acting. I mean,

00:58:07.940 she was, yes, in 50 commercials before age five was, we played a soundbite of her yesterday on

00:58:13.340 the Rosie O'Donnell show. She couldn't have been more than nine years old. We can, we can air it

00:58:17.960 again, or we can, let's run the B-roll so people can see it, but nine or 10 at the most, I would

00:58:22.960 think. Remember the Titans when she was young, exactly as you point out, she voiced, did voice

00:58:28.200 overs in A Bug's Life, which was very, she was very young. So she, like, those rules don't apply

00:58:34.920 when we're talking about child actors and actresses. There were, all of that stuff is still

00:58:41.700 forming inside of them. They know they don't have some solid base of character and values and

00:58:47.760 perspective and wisdom when they're seven, you know, like it's going to come. But stop it. We're

00:58:53.840 talking about why it's not a good idea to send a child to this industry and how those who do are

00:59:01.340 really subjecting them to the very high likelihood of a lifetime full of pain. There are many success

00:59:07.960 stories um think about macaulay culkin i mean you know every christmas we watch macaulay culkin again

00:59:13.880 in home alone one and two um but i don't know what he's doing now uh a lot of these people that

00:59:20.060 are that are successful child actors that that's their peak when they're 10 11 years old that's

00:59:24.800 got to be really challenging i you think about the i think this comes down to the parents but

00:59:30.560 you're right we cannot absolve hollywood and hollywood's role i think hollywood needs to look

00:59:34.980 at this. Maybe if a child actor does a movie like A Home Alone, there is no sequel with that same

00:59:40.780 actor. Think about the family vacation, right? Maybe you have to wait five years because it's

00:59:46.120 all about money, which is so sad. It's all about money and profit. But maybe there needs to be

00:59:50.280 something like that where, hey, you can be a smashing success in a movie or something like

00:59:54.540 that, but then you can't do another movie for three years or five years, especially if you're

00:59:58.580 under 10 years old. Because these children grow up and they are a complete disaster and they are

01:00:03.700 looking to fill the void that mom and dad, this gaping chasm. And it gets filled with people like

01:00:09.240 Brian Hickerson, who I don't know, he's doing that kind of Matthew McConaughey thing with his

01:00:16.200 like backwards hat. And it's like, imagine if your daughter brought that guy home. Give me a break.

01:00:22.500 Yeah, no, it would be a nightmare. I mean, I think I might actually close the door on him

01:00:26.940 even without knowing what he was going to turn into. Well, further updates on that story when

01:00:32.040 we get them. All right. Speaking of young women being attacked, Natalie Harp works for President

01:00:39.060 Trump as a personal assistant, and she assists with his, you know, she's reportedly the one who

01:00:44.620 actually types out the tweets and the true socials and so on. And what do they call her? The human

01:00:51.120 computer, I think it is. But in any event, the human printer, they call her because of how quickly

01:00:56.560 she'll get his remarks out to the world. And she's, I think, 35, 35 years old. So she's

01:01:04.900 relatively young. She is a cancer survivor. And I'm going to get into why we're talking about

01:01:11.040 Natalie Harp in a second. The newsflash, if you haven't heard it, Senator John Ossoff of Georgia,

01:01:16.420 a Democrat who's on the shortlist for possible Democratic candidate for president, though he

01:01:21.660 denies he's going to do it, but he's totally going to do it, has decided to attack her,

01:01:25.780 basically suggest she's a slut a cheating slut um get to that in a second but first let's talk

01:01:32.260 about who natalie harp is she um was featured during uh art of the surge and there's a scene

01:01:39.960 with trump and natalie where she's typing the tweets on fire during harris's democratic national

01:01:46.320 on committee speech. Watch.

01:01:47.320 Sade.

01:01:48.320 Thank you.

01:01:49.320 Thank you.

01:01:50.320 Thank you.

01:01:51.320 Thank you.

01:01:52.320 Thank you.

01:01:53.320 Thank you.

01:01:54.320 Thank you.

01:01:55.320 Thank you.

01:01:56.320 Thank you.

01:01:57.320 Oh my God.

01:01:58.320 Is she crazy?

01:01:59.320 Thank you.

01:02:00.320 Thank you.

01:02:01.320 Thank you all.

01:02:02.320 Thank you so very much.

01:02:04.320 Thank you, everyone.

01:02:05.320 Thank you, everyone.

01:02:06.320 Thank you.

01:02:07.320 Oh, too many.

01:02:08.320 Thank you.

01:02:09.320 It's about 20.

01:02:10.320 It must be 35.

01:02:12.320 He's traveling from India.

01:02:14.320 Ready?

01:02:15.320 These prosecutions were all started by her and Biden against their political opponents.

01:02:21.960 We get that out right away.

01:02:24.940 She paid and raised bail.

01:02:27.560 She paid bail to get the violent writers in Minnesota out of jail.

01:02:35.060 So there she is.

01:02:36.300 That's Natalie doing her thing.

01:02:37.480 Super fast typist, obviously there.

01:02:39.920 And then she spoke at the 2020 Republican National Convention and gave a bit of her

01:02:45.520 personal backstory, which was relevant to why she felt President Trump should be reelected.

01:02:50.580 Sot 9.

01:02:51.840 Because I wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for you.

01:02:55.500 About five years ago, I was the victim of a notoriously deadly medical error.

01:03:00.560 I survived, but only to be diagnosed with a rare and terminal bone cancer.

01:03:05.040 And when I failed the chemotherapies that were on the market, no one wanted me in their clinical trials.

01:03:10.500 I'd make them look bad.

01:03:12.340 They didn't give me the right to try experimental treatments, Mr. President.

01:03:16.120 You did.

01:03:17.060 And without you, I'd have died waiting for them to be approved.

01:03:23.040 OK, so God bless her.

01:03:25.480 She's apparently in remission and doing well and remains a loyal staffer to President Trump.

01:03:32.740 Well, enter John Ossoff, who 100 percent is thinking he's going to be on the short list for the Democrat nomination.

01:03:40.580 Things are already getting underway. They get underway in earnest after the midterms.

01:03:43.780 But hell, we're almost done with August. We're practically there.

01:03:46.640 So I think that's what this is about. He wanted to generate some buzz as a tough guy.

01:03:50.920 Remember how Tim Walz got the vice presidential nomination for with Kamala Harris by saying weird over and over about J.D. Vance?

01:03:56.540 I think this is Ossoff being like, I'm a fighter. I can fight Trump. I fight below the belt just like he does or his team of, you know, merry misogynists. That's how he sees it. So he goes on. He goes to a rally on Sunday in Georgia and says the following.

01:04:14.660 And while the sailors on the Lincoln fight his war, while he fruitlessly drains our munitions

01:04:24.120 and oil reserves, the president sleeps through his meetings.

01:04:30.260 He gulps and trade stocks.

01:04:33.960 So he doesn't want to do the job.

01:04:37.480 He wants to build his ballroom and travel with Natalie on their apparently defenseless

01:04:42.500 flying palace gifted by the emir of qatar

01:04:45.200 oh okay so now just the the latest chapter in it he goes on with jen saki last night uh on ms now

01:04:59.800 and she asks him about the comments and here's what he said you caused caused quite a stir

01:05:09.580 this weekend, I will say. So I just want to start by asking you about Donald Trump's comments in a

01:05:15.700 moment, of course. But obviously that speech you gave over the weekend, lots of people have

01:05:20.540 questions about it. Why did you decide to invoke Natalie Harp specifically in that speech?

01:05:25.060 Here's the point. We're in wartime. The commander in chief has mired us in this

01:05:34.060 geopolitical disaster people have lost their lives our naval logistics are frayed the global

01:05:42.160 energy system is in crisis and he retreats into this bubble of west wing aides who are his security

01:05:51.900 blanket to make him feel good about himself he is surrounded by sycophants no question i just

01:05:58.360 talked about that. But you specifically mentioned her and I just wonder why. Well, I've heard this

01:06:04.680 particular aide referred to as his security blanket. And I think we could say that about

01:06:09.780 any number of the senior aides in the White House. Okay. So you tell me, Rob, because that appears to

01:06:18.320 be just a dodge and a lie. It was about Natalie. There's a reason he mentioned her. She was on

01:06:25.500 the beverage cart with Trump that was used to exit him off of Air Force One when he did his

01:06:32.100 escape, when Air Force One was in Turkey and we allegedly got a threat that his life was in danger.

01:06:37.600 Then it came out that it was the Israelis who were saying that and our intelligence services

01:06:41.180 were saying, actually, you're fine. You can stay there. Don't worry. But he listened to the

01:06:45.560 Israelis. He got off the plane. He went on to a different plane and he left Marco Rubio and all

01:06:51.640 the press and many members of his staff back on Air Force One. Some of the press were pissed

01:06:56.320 because they felt like they were sitting ducks. They weren't aware that they were being used as

01:07:00.520 decoys. And then it became sort of a running joke. Like, who did he take off the plane with him?

01:07:06.420 Because those are the only people Trump cares about. He actually thought he might get blown

01:07:10.000 up on Air Force One. Doesn't care about Rubio. Doesn't care about the press. Does care about

01:07:14.980 natalie but and this guy decides to go with it obviously the intimation he doesn't say it

01:07:21.780 explicitly is clearly that they're having an affair that's just very clearly the intimation

01:07:25.840 right and um now he won't own it now he just says oh no they're all his security blanket and i just

01:07:30.900 like he could have mentioned anybody yes and i think rob this is despicable because he's why

01:07:36.920 would you attack a 35 year old cancer survivor as a possible affair partner to the president of the

01:07:44.220 United States when you have absolutely nothing to back that up. Retreats into a bubble. That's

01:07:51.140 what he told Jen Psaki. Megan retreats into a bubble. Joe Biden. Hello. Retreats into a bubble.

01:07:58.660 And he's saying that about Donald Trump. It's like the entire Democrat Party wants to pretend

01:08:05.100 that the four years of Joe Biden didn't exist. The other point is John Ossoff, people like

01:08:11.920 Abdul El Saeed and I think Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania. Have you noticed they

01:08:16.180 sound just like Barack Obama? They sound just like Barack Obama when they respond to questions

01:08:24.540 and when they make speeches. It's like the same Barack Obama. Get your own persona. Yeah, be your

01:08:30.640 own. And if you're going to make that accusation like, ooh, John Ossoff is a big fighter, isn't he?

01:08:36.100 He's going to be our Democrat tough guy in 2028. Okay, Jonathan, well, if you are going to be a

01:08:41.700 Democrat tough guy, then you need to go all the way with your accusation. You can't just mention

01:08:45.820 Natalie Harp's name in a speech over the weekend and leave it there. You have to say the implication,

01:08:51.020 all right, I think the implication to your point is that she is apparently having an affair with

01:08:56.980 Donald Trump. Also, to your point, there's no proof of that. There's no evidence of that. There's

01:09:00.520 really nothing to suggest that other than the fact that she is an aide to the president, has been

01:09:06.100 with him for several years out of the White House and now inside the White House. And she is deadly

01:09:11.400 loyal to him because she credits him with saving her life he passed the right to try act in 2018

01:09:16.900 that gave her access to immunotherapies that were at that time experimental uh just like covid by

01:09:23.000 the way ivermectin was you were pulled off facebook if you talked about ivermectin in 2021

01:09:27.360 now it's what you get if you are elderly and you have a serious case of case of covid um but that's

01:09:32.480 why she's still alive that's why she's deadly loyal to the president but if john office ossoff

01:09:36.940 was really such a a tough guy he's such a fighter why not just come out and say that with Jen Psaki

01:09:42.580 be like I've heard stand by the president is having an affair with Natalie Harp but he didn't

01:09:47.440 do that which makes him even more of a coward in a weakling yes I totally agree like whatever

01:09:55.140 double down if you're gonna be this tough guy in the mold of Trump this fighter why don't you just

01:10:01.960 own what you said, sir. Go ahead. Lean in. Let me hear you be the fighter. No, he just decided

01:10:07.840 to sling mud against the president and Natalie, not to mention this is hurtful to Melania,

01:10:15.180 potentially, and then try to wipe his hands of it and pretend he didn't do it. We all know he did

01:10:19.860 it. I actually think this is this is not a good mark for him. And I think it could come back to

01:10:24.320 haunt him when he declares for president, as I think he will. Mark Halpern's been mentioning

01:10:29.260 mentioning him more and more so i think there's a decent chance he'll do it now i have a i have

01:10:33.480 a curveball for you though because not only does he at times sound just like barack obama

01:10:38.000 here he is and i i'm gonna play it and then i'm gonna tell you who i think he sounds like okay

01:10:44.180 watch sat 14

01:10:45.860 he's he's this person watch okay he's not 15

01:10:58.520 please welcome kamala

01:11:08.680 Oprah is a strong black woman.

01:11:16.360 Barack is a strong black man, although his mother is white.

01:11:18.980 And he that's exactly who he sounds like.

01:11:20.880 It's a combination of Barack and Oprah.

01:11:22.980 And these people are so weak and so insecure and just so unsure of themselves that they

01:11:26.520 can't just be themselves like John Ossoff.

01:11:29.120 Just he's he's Oprahama.

01:11:30.860 Yes.

01:11:31.220 Oprahama.

01:11:31.640 You got an iPad.

01:11:32.540 You get an iPad that I hadn't thought about that.

01:11:35.460 But that's exactly what he sounds like is Oprah.

01:11:37.140 was that the same speech by the way these people come up with their own

01:11:41.060 sticks it's like be like be you whatever you is but okay what we're he's gonna have to do that

01:11:48.440 if he decides to run for president because eventually you kind of got to show the people

01:11:52.020 who you are megan i grew up in massachusetts and i sorry i grew up in massachusetts and all these

01:11:56.460 these politicians in massachusetts still to this day jfk died what 60 years ago and they all want

01:12:02.080 to be like, you know, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die. And they grow the hair

01:12:07.340 out and they're like Jackie and Bobby and Teddy. And it's like, I'm sorry, there was only one and

01:12:12.260 he's been dead for 65 years. Okay. Get your own act. Yes. Yes. Honestly, I couldn't agree with

01:12:19.460 you more. So the other big story in the news that we've been following, and that's, that's

01:12:23.440 dominating the news last night and today, especially in the UK is the fallout after

01:12:28.220 Jason Arday's death by suicide. He was this professor at Cambridge, youngest black professor

01:12:33.900 ever at Cambridge, who it turns out his entire life story was a lie, as he told it to us,

01:12:38.320 at least. And he plagiarized too many times to count hundreds and hundreds of times.

01:12:44.500 After his death, the New York Times published a piece they'd clearly been working on for a while

01:12:48.060 showing they found kids who had grown up with him who said the core origin story was also a lie.

01:12:53.780 He was not mute until age 12. He was talking just fine long before any of that. He was a normal kid

01:12:59.320 cracking jokes and sounding like just you or like you or I would, or at least our UK versions. So

01:13:05.400 now instead of accepting that they were fooled, that Cambridge was fooled or just was willfully

01:13:14.100 blind, that's really the better way of phrasing what Cambridge did, to this guy's ruse and saying

01:13:20.220 I'm sad that he was so distraught by it that he killed himself. This same group that propped him

01:13:25.200 up is now turning against the media saying it's the media's fault that he died. It's the fault

01:13:32.600 of the people who sniffed, you know, smelled a rat or at least published the accounts of those

01:13:39.260 who smelled rats and checked it out and found out he was lying. That's that's who's to blame.

01:13:44.460 So last night, they went so far as to hold a big rally in London with thousands of people there.

01:13:52.380 And they were making some of these same allegations in the most egregious terms.

01:13:57.720 Here is Lord Simon Woolley at the event SOT24.

01:14:03.760 This is tough for me, as it's tough for all of you and the hundreds and thousands of people in the UK and around the world.

01:14:14.460 who are appalled by the public assassination of Jason Arden.

01:14:25.720 The lynching.

01:14:29.260 The lynching.

01:14:33.960 Lynching.

01:14:34.740 One more, then I'll give it to you.

01:14:35.920 Here's UK politician Diane Abbott in Sot 25.

01:14:40.880 I want in particular to talk about the role that I believe the vicious media campaign drove him to his death.

01:14:56.600 He was first appointed as a professor in Cambridge three years ago and for those three years he has had a vicious campaign, a bitter campaign by anonymous people, by other professors who just didn't believe that a black man should be a Cambridge professor.

01:15:24.520 this was a vicious campaign but it wasn't just a campaign against the professor

01:15:34.500 it was a campaign against all of us

01:15:37.120 okay rob your take it was a campaign against all of us uh this had nothing to do with racism and

01:15:49.420 i think it's uh it's worth pointing out that look there there are members of parliament there that

01:15:54.140 want to have a public inquiry. That's what they call it there. I don't know what that's going to

01:15:57.880 accomplish. But this professor, this professor Arday has been fabricating everything. The majority

01:16:04.540 of what's on his resume is a fabrication or just a complete lie. And the problem here, I don't know

01:16:10.400 what's happening in the United Kingdom, by the way. I don't know who would attend a vigil like this.

01:16:14.640 Is it very sad and tragic that this is, that he apparently took his own life? Yes, that's certainly.

01:16:22.520 um but this habit that we have of propping up people that shouldn't be propped up and and

01:16:29.640 turning these people into heroes who really have no right to be turned into a hero uh this guy it

01:16:35.500 seems like is just a liar a liar that was exposed and the other part of this is by and there were

01:16:43.560 thousands of people at that at that rally that they had to honor his memory uh they are intimidating

01:16:50.460 the media and the message is clear don't do it again if you find this sort of thing again whether

01:16:55.940 it's a black professor or a minority professor do not do it again we will come after you so now

01:17:00.660 they are trying to they're chastising the media into silence and i hope it doesn't work there i

01:17:05.820 can tell you it would not work here if they did the same thing um him committing suicide and what

01:17:10.720 he apparently was lying about are two separate issues uh and the media did what was right in

01:17:15.520 exposing this man who was a total fraud. No, you're absolutely right. In fact,

01:17:21.360 it's been kind of shocking to see the, um, the, the, the people going after the press

01:17:27.740 so explicitly, like, my God, how are you explicitly blaming the press like this?

01:17:33.540 There was, um, a post on X. It was by, uh, let's see, this group that exposes threats to academic

01:17:40.660 freedom in UK universities. And, um, they also push these institutions to engage in more free

01:17:49.160 speech. And this is what they, they posted. I want to make sure I, this it's the committee for

01:17:55.080 academic freedom. They issued a statement saying, look, we were troubled to see academics smeared

01:17:59.940 from the stage at last night's vigil for Jason Arday in Trafalgar Square. Uh, Diane Abbott,

01:18:05.280 that woman we just played claimed that other professors had waged a three year vicious

01:18:09.940 campaign against Arde because they, quote, just didn't believe that a black man should be a

01:18:13.880 Cambridge professor. That's a serious categorical imputation of racist motive. And those familiar

01:18:19.820 with the controversy could reasonably have understood Abbott's remarks as referring to a

01:18:24.380 small, identifiable group of academics known to have raised concerns about this guy's work.

01:18:29.340 Then they go through and say one of them is David Harris. He's a professor emeritus at Plymouth

01:18:34.360 Marjon University, first raised concerns about Arde's doctoral thesis and subsequent peer-reviewed

01:18:39.640 publications in May of 2023. They read that Harris previously, that he raised those concerns

01:18:44.560 privately, privately with Arday about what he called puzzling similarities in reported data,

01:18:50.380 repeated passages, and possible failures of attribution. In other words, plagiarism.

01:18:55.140 His covering email concluded simply, I would welcome any response. That was not, in other words,

01:19:01.940 a vicious campaign, but an emeritus professor engaging closely with another scholar's published

01:19:07.120 work, identifying apparent problems and asking that they be examined. When it emerged last month

01:19:11.940 that Arday had reported Harris to the police for harassment, this group warned of the chilling

01:19:18.780 effect invoking law enforcement would have against the scholarly criticism. And they point out that

01:19:25.800 within the academic field, they write the scholarly community has traditionally governed its own

01:19:31.360 standards and policed its own. Like normally plagiarism sewing does get called out by a fellow

01:19:36.780 academic who wants to make sure the system stays as pure as possible. And so this guy Harris wasn't

01:19:42.920 doing anything wrong. This is how they police a fraud within their ranks. But Arday got a police

01:19:50.240 investigation going against him, and they did it because he was a black professor at Cambridge

01:19:55.580 playing the race card. And they go on to say that this same chilling effect arises when Harris's

01:20:05.440 scholarly scrutiny is now retrospectively recast by a senior parliamentarian as racial animus

01:20:12.640 before a large public gathering and then amplified. And by the way, there is this petition online over

01:20:20.480 there in the UK in particular. It doesn't get into American journalists, but it gets into UK

01:20:26.160 saying, if anyone has information on these people, personal or professional, let me know.

01:20:32.200 just doing some journalism. These are a few of the journalists that have contributed to the

01:20:36.560 insanely revolting and unnecessary scrutiny of Dr. Jason Arde. From overt racism to expansions

01:20:42.600 on a topic not relevant to public interest, you are all responsible for collectively making that

01:20:49.040 man feel like there is no place for him on earth. And this poster goes through and names

01:20:54.380 at least two dozen journalists by name and publication who allegedly contributed. And by

01:21:01.480 the way, multiple of the journalists are, the Guardian, the Atlantic, because people are still

01:21:08.280 claiming that this is a right-wing thing, Rob, that somehow the Guardian and the Atlantic are

01:21:12.020 now right-wing publications. So what do you make of all this campaign against the people

01:21:16.500 who called him out for the lying? The Guardian's so right-wing, by the way. I think the Guardian,

01:21:22.840 I think, like, you know, it's like it's to the right of, you know, Newsmax or the New York Post

01:21:27.020 or whatever. No, it was Rush Limbaugh's paper of choice. It was, of course, of course.

01:21:31.480 Um, it's, isn't it interesting that this is, this is what, if it's, if it's about race,

01:21:36.280 remember the questions about Claudine Gay's thesis, um, and she was at Harvard and the

01:21:40.640 questions about, remember the questions about Jill Biden's thesis. She got an EDD from the

01:21:44.540 university of Delaware online in 2006 and made everybody call her doctor. Uh, it just so happened

01:21:49.800 that her husband was running for president during a pandemic. So it was very confusing because

01:21:54.040 people thought, oh, well, she's a, she must be a medical doctor. No, she's not a medical doctor.

01:21:59.560 she didn't correct the record abdul al-said does not have a medical license never did a residency

01:22:04.520 um but people still refer to him as doctor because he went to med school there's a big

01:22:08.860 difference between seeing patients and going to med school um joe biden in 1988 ran for president

01:22:14.880 coincidentally he plagiarized off a a british member of parliament i think his name was neil

01:22:19.440 kinnick that's right um in a speech he had to drop out of the race he dropped out of the race

01:22:22.440 within a month because the speech that joe biden delivered was almost word for word a speech that

01:22:26.780 this MP from London had delivered. And he took the whole thing and changed words to swap out

01:22:33.600 what made sense there and what made sense here in the United States. Was it racism when the media

01:22:38.240 pointed that out in 1988? Was it racism when the media started asking questions about Jill

01:22:43.420 Biden's thesis or Claudine Gay's thesis? Look, you're right. We did rely upon academia to do

01:22:50.000 this, to be the check and balance. But when you start looking into a black professor at one of

01:22:54.820 the most elite universities on the planet, Cambridge, then all of a sudden it's all about

01:22:59.700 race. And I remember when this story first started becoming a story about maybe a month ago,

01:23:05.680 it was one or two items. Last week, it was, I mean, everything in this guy's record was a

01:23:11.660 fabrication, but you weren't really allowed to talk about it. Again, we're talking about a country

01:23:16.300 that is now arresting people for Facebook posts, Megan. Thousands of people annually get arrested

01:23:21.420 for things they say on social media. They've got severe problems. And whenever you see something

01:23:25.440 like this, let it be a warning, a warning, because that is a coming attraction to a theater near you

01:23:30.140 here in the U.S. And I'll tell you what the end result will likely be. You're just going to make

01:23:36.400 these universities less likely to want to hire the next black applicant because now they're being

01:23:43.300 told, any testing of that person's resume that winds up not panning out is somehow racist

01:23:52.200 harassment that could drive the person to suicide.

01:23:55.040 This is called the course of business for universities.

01:24:00.460 Cambridge failed in not subjecting Arde to this test when it first hired him, when concerns

01:24:06.300 were raised over and over, and ultimately in standing by him at the end when it was

01:24:11.060 very clear there was nothing left that they could defend. Yes. And Cambridge standing by him.

01:24:16.680 Set him up to fail. Yeah. Why stand by this guy toward the end? Why not have an inquiry into his

01:24:21.740 record? And when they have this big public outpouring in London, Megan, is this, is this

01:24:26.680 because he committed suicide or whatever they call it now? Some other term. Totally. I don't

01:24:32.400 think they'd be there if he hadn't. Or was this an attack on the media? Is this, we're going to

01:24:35.960 show up to because they're using the suicide they're using the suicide as a way of flipping

01:24:41.340 the whole narrative like aha we're not the villains we weren't duped you got the ones we

01:24:45.900 said were evil really are evil right and now it's not you're all racist because you pointed out

01:24:50.440 flaws in his resume or you know errors or lies now you're racist because you drove a man to death

01:24:55.960 as with no acknowledgement at all that he was a habitual liar that this guy was beyond a liar

01:25:03.240 he was a fraudster. The guy committed massive fraud on Cambridge and his other universities

01:25:09.400 and everyone because he told these lies over and over in public, including in a memoir that he's

01:25:13.960 got out on the shelves right now. So I have no tolerance for this nonsense. All right, stand by.

01:25:18.820 I'm going to take a quick break. Then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about

01:25:21.800 an update in a story we've been on here on the MK show involving Miss Universe. Stand by.

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01:26:25.580 Patrick did it. Patrick's the one who did it. Not Lindsay. Patrick did it. Because, you know,

01:26:38.700 I also heard that women typically don't strangle. So awful to even say. But that isn't what a woman

01:26:52.380 would do. They don't strangle. I was actually in therapy today and my therapist and I were

01:27:00.020 talking about it. And she said, I said, well, what do they do? She said, well, they poison

01:27:04.080 or I said, or, or drown them. Like we literally had that conversation today. Um, and she looks

01:27:14.520 at me and she goes he did it i was like wow yeah and now yeah yeah that was a moron known as lisa

01:27:25.180 renna who stars in the real housewives of beverly hills who has now appointed herself um murder

01:27:32.880 expert or maybe it's her therapist who's the murder expert on why lindsey clancy is definitely

01:27:39.060 not guilty of killing her three children because women don't strangle. The therapist said it,

01:27:46.860 Rob Finnerty. He's back with me. He's the host of Finnerty on Newsmax. The therapist told her

01:27:52.200 that women do not strangle. And the therapist said Patrick did it. Okay. So this, this nitwick

01:28:00.140 gets on social media and just tells us all this is the way it is, uh, in this case against Lindsay

01:28:06.900 Clancy, a woman accused of killing her three children, she says to postpartum psychosis.

01:28:14.100 The prosecution is arguing there was no psychosis. You were depressed and you did something

01:28:18.720 absolutely despicable and you should be held to account within the eyes of the criminal law and

01:28:23.860 not go to a mental facility, but to a jail. And there is a collection of people online thinking

01:28:30.120 that the husband did it, but what you need to know is that not even Lindsey Clancy's defense

01:28:37.160 is arguing that. They do not dispute that she did it. The whole contest in court is over what her

01:28:45.000 mental state was, but Lisa Renna has it figured out, Rob Finnerty. Yes, the Real Housewives of

01:28:50.440 what? Where was she the housewife of? New Jersey? She's a Beverly Hills girl. Beverly Hills. Okay.

01:28:56.980 I used to like the Real Housewives.

01:28:59.260 Now there are, it's like the Real Housewives of like Arkansas.

01:29:02.320 Now there's the Real Housewives of like Western Massachusetts.

01:29:05.300 They're like everywhere.

01:29:06.260 Why can't women strangle, by the way?

01:29:08.420 Why can't anyone who supports this woman's innocence?

01:29:12.280 I don't understand that.

01:29:13.560 It's not like these children were grown.

01:29:15.060 These were small babies.

01:29:16.180 These were small children.

01:29:17.800 Why couldn't a woman strangle?

01:29:19.520 I do not understand that.

01:29:21.040 and I don't understand why these people fawn all over really bad people online. Have you noticed

01:29:28.540 this? This is what now happens. There are Facebook groups, support groups where they have chat set up,

01:29:33.920 where they all can commiserate and talk about how this woman's getting a terrible shake from the

01:29:39.040 criminal justice system. I don't understand it. I don't understand why we've gotten to this point

01:29:43.960 in society. Just like with Jason R. Day, the professor, why are people out there?

01:29:50.380 Why would you take time out of your day to go out and support somebody like this? I do not

01:29:56.080 understand it. Yeah, no, I mean, either. Other than we've just gotten so conspiratorial in the

01:30:02.780 past couple of years since covid, it's just out of control. And now even when you have a defense

01:30:08.060 whose defense is not he did it, it's she did it, but she did it because of mental defect.

01:30:13.460 because of postpartum psychosis,

01:30:16.200 they're the really smart ones

01:30:17.680 that are going to dig in and say,

01:30:18.860 uh-uh, no, no, no.

01:30:20.080 We know it was Patrick.

01:30:21.180 It was him.

01:30:22.020 It's just the defense lawyer's in on it

01:30:23.540 or the defense lawyer's too dumb to know, whatever.

01:30:25.680 I mean, I really don't have time

01:30:26.920 for conspiracy theories.

01:30:28.440 I never engage in them really one way or the other,

01:30:30.740 debunking, not debunking.

01:30:31.660 But I did think it was interesting

01:30:33.840 that a real housewife of Beverly Hills

01:30:35.760 thought we'd be interested in her opinion.

01:30:37.500 We are only to mock you,

01:30:39.300 not to actually consider it substantively.

01:30:42.000 We've already spent too much time on her.

01:30:42.880 And she knows her stuff.

01:30:43.940 She's a lawyer.

01:30:44.440 She's a lawyer like you, Megan, right?

01:30:45.640 She's an attorney and she's.

01:30:46.900 Yeah, right.

01:30:47.420 She's married to Harry Hamlin, which is the same as sleeping in a holiday and last night.

01:30:51.580 Yes.

01:30:52.300 There's a big controversy in our evil top hat up north, Canada, where at the Miss Universe

01:30:58.440 pageant, Rob, you may or may not be aware.

01:31:00.980 I'm sure you stay up late at night watching foreign beauty contests.

01:31:06.060 And although our gay friend Dan does it and he is amazing.

01:31:10.640 He really does.

01:31:11.160 he can, he can handicap these beauty pageants the way like a sports book. He can handicap a horse

01:31:16.980 race. Like he will go through the list. Like Miss Venezuela this year, she's fat for real. Not going

01:31:22.260 to happen. He'll go down the list of each of the gals. I haven't been able to ask him his opinion

01:31:27.300 of what happened at the Miss Universe Canada pageant, but I will. So there's a gal by the

01:31:32.800 last name of calling bull. And she was very, very pissed off. She's a former Miss Universe Canada

01:31:39.220 herself to see two gals who are engaged in this year's competition do the costume contest. They

01:31:45.280 initiated a costume contest as part of the competition, not like evening gown, not bathing

01:31:50.760 suit, wear a costume and do something that reflects some Canadian throwback tradition or our heritage.

01:31:56.640 So two of these girls made the mistake of looking a little indigenous. They looked a little

01:32:02.120 indigenous. One had a headdress and one had, you know, like Indian feathers, whatever. And old

01:32:08.100 calling bull who herself is an indigenous Canadian went ballistic on their asses. And they've been in

01:32:16.700 the fetal position ever since apologizing. These two girls apologized. One of them apologized to

01:32:21.080 her. Both had apologized to the indigenous peoples. The pageant apologized. The host of

01:32:26.700 the pageant apologized. They are all bent over whacking their own backsides in an apologetic

01:32:34.040 state, and now Miss Universe Canada, the old girl calling bull, has come out to let us know

01:32:41.700 she is the real victim here. She did step in saying, I could be a cultural liaison for

01:32:49.540 indigenous First Nations Cree people, but I can't speak for all people. I can't speak for all

01:32:54.980 cultures. There need to be multiple people, especially if you're doing a costume competition.

01:33:00.280 So we have to have every possible identity represented so no one steps on another rake.

01:33:04.880 And then she wants us to know she's received intense back, intense backlash for her boldness.

01:33:11.560 She writes or says, I think this is why we need to speak up.

01:33:16.520 After I spoke up, I experienced so much racism and hate.

01:33:20.300 I've actually received death threats, she says.

01:33:22.920 People telling her to kill herself and others calling her slurs specific to the indigenous community.

01:33:28.800 She also says that it has been exhausting doing the work of educating in the wake of the incident and goes from there.

01:33:38.360 So you tell me whether it is wrong to subject Ashley or what's her first name?

01:33:45.300 Calling Bull. I don't know her first name to a little blowback, not death threats.

01:33:49.440 That's not nice. But I think this woman, yeah, Ashley, kind of asked to receive some negative comments on the Internet by injecting herself.

01:33:57.800 And by the way, here's just a little little flavor, because I bet you haven't seen it, of her stopping the pageant after the controversy erupted.

01:34:04.460 They had her come on, stand next to the actual host, and she stopped the pageant without permission to talk about this shit.

01:34:11.840 Stop 28.

01:34:12.920 I have the envelope and we're going to call our top 20.

01:34:16.000 Before we do that, Sunny, I wanted to acknowledge something.

01:34:19.080 If we can turn the music down just a little bit.

01:34:22.200 So with Miss Universe Canada, me being the first Indigenous First Nations Miss Universe Canada, that was such a huge honour.

01:34:31.060 I wanted to acknowledge this. During the national competition, the costume competition, there was cultural appropriation that was done towards Indigenous peoples.

01:34:40.360 And with Sonny, he took action by listening to me. I feel that it's my responsibility to also give you an opportunity to say something to the Indigenous community.

01:34:50.020 because yes, there was a statement, but, and I'm sorry, it goes so far. Yes. On behalf of,

01:34:56.580 whatever. Then she makes him apologize. Then he gives her the mic back and she's not done

01:35:00.960 flagellating him. This is so out of control, Rob, your thoughts, Megan, you host a show. Do not,

01:35:06.240 don't you dare do that to me if I'm hosting a show and somebody that she put that guy on blast.

01:35:11.200 He's like, uh, right. Um, we look, we're very sorry to all the indigenous peoples and their

01:35:18.240 peoples and other peoples. Is her name, what did you say her name was? Sitting Bull? Calling Bull?

01:35:22.920 Calling Bull. Ashley Calling Bull. Okay. I don't, by the way, you talk about the WNBA that I never

01:35:27.660 thought I would spend so much time talking about the WNBA, Dejanay Carrington. Okay. The woman who

01:35:32.120 like tried to end Sophie Cunningham's career. Is she a natural blonde or is that cultural appropriation?

01:35:39.060 Are we allowed to mention that by the way? I don't think so. I'm thinking that's from a bottle.

01:35:42.660 Okay, this whole thing with the indigenous peoples and the Indian peoples and whatever all of this crap is and these land acknowledgements, and I'm part of the Ojibwe and the Adamwe, and everyone's sitting there.

01:35:56.640 It's like, what better way to make people feel bad about themselves than start an event, a wedding, a political event, by letting everybody know that they're now sitting on stolen land or that they're holding said event on stolen land.

01:36:07.560 look the white man the evil white man i don't know if your team can put that bikini shot back

01:36:13.260 up of this um this miss universe right we're not far away from thanksgiving i don't remember

01:36:18.740 reading about the pilgrims having the first thanksgiving with a woman like that okay i think

01:36:23.880 the first thanksgiving would have looked a lot different by the way if that's what the uh the

01:36:27.300 native peoples looked like um in the in the 1620s but look men mankind womankind humankind conquering

01:36:35.680 other peoples, okay, is not unique to the evil white man. This did not start when we landed in

01:36:41.540 the new world, Megan, the new world. It didn't start with us. People have been conquering people

01:36:46.200 as long as there have been people, which means we can stop doing land acknowledgements.

01:36:50.660 And do you think that cultural appropriation like this is inappropriate? Like it was wrong

01:36:57.220 of the two girls to wear the headdress and the feathers? No. One woman was dressed as an owl.

01:37:02.440 All right.

01:37:02.720 Are we going to contact the owl community in the great white north and see if they're

01:37:06.700 offended that one of the girls was seriously dressed like an owl?

01:37:09.400 She came out, she had the feathers and it looked like an owl to me.

01:37:12.060 The girl on the left, that's a maple leaf.

01:37:14.360 Hello, Toronto Maple Leafs.

01:37:15.960 All right.

01:37:16.220 Great hockey team.

01:37:17.260 I like what she's doing there.

01:37:18.520 The girl on the right, she's got the headdress.

01:37:20.160 And you know what?

01:37:20.920 They look great.

01:37:21.700 The girl on the right should win.

01:37:24.220 Yeah, honestly, I feel like is it cultural appropriation or is it culturally honoring

01:37:29.640 somebody's backstory somebody's culture some something other than your own i just feel like

01:37:35.320 just stop i i mean this they're trying to make this into blackface and it's not and even black

01:37:41.760 face wasn't blackface before the left made it black unless you're justin trudeau right take

01:37:46.300 that yeah exactly right a true like minstrel show back blackface was always bad but i you know this

01:37:52.120 is of course i've talked about this 10 000 times but in any event i'm sick of people being shamed

01:37:55.780 for their fucking costumes.

01:37:57.180 It's a celebratory costume.

01:37:58.640 It's a costume.

01:37:59.820 It's meant to be pretend.

01:38:01.460 They're not trying to be actual native people.

01:38:04.440 When you don a costume,

01:38:05.900 the whole idea is to do something

01:38:07.700 other than what you actually are.

01:38:10.060 These people I have no humor calling bull.

01:38:12.560 And think about Halloweens.

01:38:14.120 How many Halloweens do you see cowboys and Indians?

01:38:16.660 I don't think they call them cowboy

01:38:17.580 and native peoples now on Halloween,

01:38:19.220 but it's just, it's so stupid

01:38:21.180 and it's gotten so out of hand.

01:38:22.880 And I don't even think if I was in the stands,

01:38:25.780 when that woman was like,

01:38:27.200 and Thomas, would you like to acknowledge

01:38:28.580 how terrible you are now that you, that woman?

01:38:31.020 I wouldn't, I don't even think I would notice.

01:38:33.260 If they came on stage, I wouldn't be like,

01:38:34.940 oh, wow, look at them.

01:38:35.660 They're dressed as Native Americans,

01:38:37.600 but they're Native Canadians, I suppose.

01:38:39.620 Do we call them Native Canadians?

01:38:40.920 I don't know what we call them.

01:38:41.500 What do you think you would have done?

01:38:42.120 What would you have done, Rob Finnerty,

01:38:43.520 if that woman had hijacked to this pageant

01:38:46.100 you were hosting to give you the chance

01:38:47.460 to apologize for that?

01:38:48.560 No, I would not have done it.

01:38:50.160 Megan, I would not have done it.

01:38:51.580 And you know, we've all been there

01:38:52.920 where someone's like, they put you in the spot

01:38:55.180 And you're like, oh, don't even don't pull that crap with me, young lady.

01:38:58.780 OK, we're going to continue on with it.

01:39:00.280 I'm going to continue reading this teleprompter and I'm not going to acknowledge anybody.

01:39:03.640 But if you look, if I see St. Patrick's Day, people are dressed as leprechauns.

01:39:07.440 They're all over.

01:39:08.180 They're all over the place.

01:39:09.260 I'm not like, how dare you?

01:39:11.640 How dare you do that?

01:39:13.340 Notre Dame.

01:39:14.400 How dare you, Rudy Rudiger?

01:39:19.400 Ye, right?

01:39:20.420 Yes.

01:39:21.000 Same, because we Irish have never been offended by anything in our loving lives.

01:39:24.700 Is it just, you get, the offense gene goes away

01:39:28.000 when you're Irish.

01:39:29.080 I don't know, it's like the drinking gene is there.

01:39:31.840 The fighting gene is there.

01:39:34.980 The clever wit is often there,

01:39:37.560 but the offense gene is not there.

01:39:40.060 No, because Megan, our people were doomed

01:39:41.740 by a potato in the 1840s, okay?

01:39:44.220 So we can't be easily offended

01:39:46.240 when you're doomed by a spud.

01:39:50.560 We're still recovering from that, Rob Pinnerty.

01:39:53.360 thank you great to see you again great to see you thanks megan okay um coming up a new book

01:40:01.500 on an important topic about technology and our kids so we're going to keep the show rolling

01:40:06.580 and we're going to bring on this guy who's actually very interesting named jared cooney

01:40:11.200 horvath and he is going to tell us why our kids aren't learning anything and how we can turn that

01:40:18.140 around. But before we go to break, I do want to remind you, tune in tonight to MK Confidential.

01:40:23.880 If you haven't yet gotten in on the DC Snipers story, it's only half an hour. Our first episode

01:40:30.100 aired last night. You can still do it. And then you can watch tonight or listen with us. Doug and

01:40:36.140 I are listening to it right along with you. And we'll go through it this week. And we may try to

01:40:40.280 do like a book club thing at the end of this week or early next week on it. So check it out. We'll

01:40:45.920 be right back. When it comes to supplements, there are two things that matter, that it works

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01:42:08.040 politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news, only on the Megyn Kelly channel, SiriusXM 111,

01:42:15.460 and on the SiriusXM app. If your child's school handed them a laptop and called it progress,

01:42:26.400 my next guest has some data that says otherwise. His name is Jared Cooney Horvath. He holds a

01:42:32.100 master's from Harvard and a PhD in cognitive neuroscience from the University of Melbourne.

01:42:37.740 And he's out today with a new book. It's called The Digital Delusion, How Classroom Technology

01:42:43.340 Harms Our Kids' Learning and How to Help Them Thrive Again. In it, he argues that Gen Z is

01:42:48.700 the first generation in modern history to score lower on basic cognitive measures than the

01:42:54.940 generation before it. And it is the fault of tech. Jared joins me. Now, Jared, hi. Welcome.

01:43:01.320 Thank you so much for having me on.

01:43:03.920 Oh, it's great to have you.

01:43:04.840 All right, so this is really scary.

01:43:06.840 So what do you mean that their cognitive abilities are lower than the generations that preceded them?

01:43:12.000 Yeah, since the late 1800s, we've been measuring people on different cognitive abilities, say literacy, numeracy, the big ones, but as low as memory function, attention function, executive functioning.

01:43:23.840 And every generation throughout history has outperformed their parents.

01:43:28.140 And the reason for this has largely been school, right?

01:43:30.940 Kids spend more time in school than their parents on average, and school is where we kind of cut these cognitive teeth, ergo more school, better cognition.

01:43:40.580 Until today, it looks like Gen Z is the first generation since we've been doing this to drop on basically every measure we have, from those higher things like literacy and numeracy all the way to just basic memory functioning.

01:43:51.720 Now, why, I guess, is the fun question.

01:43:53.860 It can't really be school.

01:43:54.840 Everyone loves to say that school looks exactly the same today as it did 20 years ago, so it can't be that.

01:43:59.400 can't really be evolutionary biology. It appears to be the tool we've introduced within school

01:44:04.960 to drive learning. In any country we look at, as soon as technology enters the learning equation

01:44:09.900 en masse, learning goes down, development goes down, and we don't see anything kind of taking

01:44:14.660 its place, unfortunately. What specifically are the tools that you're referring to?

01:44:19.820 So these would be, when we talk about educational technology, it's any student-facing

01:44:24.520 internet-connected device. So by all means, if you're a teacher running tech that no kid touches,

01:44:29.400 go to town. If you're using a haptic simulator to practice surgery as a surgeon, do your thing.

01:44:36.420 But as soon as screens with internet connections face the kids, that's when all learning is going

01:44:41.420 to start to go haywire. So it's not the whiteboard that you're objecting to. It's laptops.

01:44:48.480 No. So yeah, when we talk about tech, a lot of people say a pencil is tech. It's this digital

01:44:53.280 technology stuff when we look at scores around the world and so it's not just the u.s a lot of

01:44:57.860 people think i'm just talking here in any country when tech goes from peripheral to central within

01:45:03.640 the classroom that's when you'll see scores on basically every measure start to drop significantly

01:45:08.640 to the point where now in the u.s we're just talking about problems i know you write in the

01:45:12.520 book about how it's not a good way to learn to just hear something and then type it down

01:45:18.100 in your laptop. No one's remembering anything. Well, you got to think, what is learning if not

01:45:25.000 transformation of knowledge of information within your head? So if you're taking notes,

01:45:29.920 say, on a keyboard, all you're doing is hearing a word, writing a word, hearing a word, writing a

01:45:35.220 word. Think about like a courtroom stenographer. In that instance, the only thing of importance

01:45:39.080 is the sound and the order of the words. The meaning is irrelevant. So that's why if you

01:45:42.980 ever see a kid, like I'm a teacher, typing up copious amounts of notes, I'll flat out ask him,

01:45:47.800 hey, what did we learn today? They'll say, I don't know. I have to go read my notes.

01:45:52.120 Meanwhile, anyone taking a note with a pen and paper, because you can't write near as fast as

01:45:56.960 I can speak, by definition, you're already parsing meaning. You have to make sense of what's important,

01:46:02.200 what's not. And that's why handwritten notes are so gross, right? You have lines and arrows and

01:46:06.280 crosses. That's a sign you're processing deeper meaning. Learning will get deeper just by the

01:46:10.620 tool you're using. So this is funny because I remember back when I was in middle school or

01:46:17.880 somewhere around there, eighth or ninth grade, and my best friend and I used to sit and study

01:46:23.800 for tests together. And the stuff that we were getting wrong, we had a practice of shouting it

01:46:29.780 at each other. Like it was a way of remembering. I will live, you know, for the rest of my life,

01:46:36.140 remembering the moment when she yelled, who pays the dowry? And I yelled back the bride's parents.

01:46:44.800 Like to this day, I remember that vividly among all the other stuff that I crammed into my brain

01:46:50.200 through, you know, K through 12 and then college and law school, because we learned it in a way

01:46:54.660 that was very memorable. But the typing of information down on your laptop, as somebody

01:46:59.260 says it to you is I think literally the opposite of that. Yeah. And you did a great, that's a great

01:47:04.480 thing is all memory is going to be what we call constructive, which basically means when it comes

01:47:09.760 to making deep memories, the more you recall it, the more you access a memory, the deeper it becomes.

01:47:15.760 So when you do something fun, like you just did, where you scream it out with your friend,

01:47:19.620 that's a story you're going to recall. You're going to the next day laugh about it. You're

01:47:23.220 going to tell your parents what you just did. And every time that memory is getting deeper.

01:47:26.380 But when you type some words using the exact same keyboard in the exact same screen,

01:47:30.900 the exact same folders when nothing really changes all of these kind of cues just start

01:47:36.120 to disappear and recall basically goes away to the point where when it comes to tech most of us

01:47:40.500 never recall anything on tech like my favorite example i always say what was your best friend's

01:47:46.340 phone number growing up 740-7857 haven't dialed that thing in 40 years there it is what's your

01:47:52.580 best friend's phone number today i know where it is but i've never had to actually know my kids

01:47:58.560 numbers that is how and this is what tech does one of the ways it works is by offloading your

01:48:03.820 memory so you stop remembering things but if you don't remember things best of luck being creative

01:48:09.540 or critical think errors or anything with that information yeah so why did we agree to this

01:48:18.140 how did this happen to us by the way uh if you're just tuning in we're talking to jared cooney

01:48:22.220 horvath about his book the digital delusion out today so how did this happen to us i don't know

01:48:28.040 that anyone writ large agreed with this. So now here's where you get to say, how cynical do we

01:48:32.280 want to get? Um, I think it's always more fun to be cynical. I think from like the teacher's

01:48:39.960 perspective, we were sold a bill of goods. We were told largely from Ted talk stages that this was

01:48:46.440 going to change education and kids are going to be creative. It's going to blow everything up.

01:48:50.740 And so we kind of bought into it. We now have the data 15 years later to say, no, it's doing

01:48:55.820 the complete opposite. But I think from our point of view, I don't really blame

01:48:59.880 students or teachers or parents. If we want to assign any weird blame, it's got to just go to

01:49:04.260 tech developers. Because think about the very first computer ever given to students was like

01:49:08.780 the first Chromebook from Microsoft. And that was never built for students. It was a very small

01:49:14.600 laptop built for business people because they assumed anyone who travels would like a small

01:49:18.660 laptop. Turns out it didn't sell at all. No one bought it. So in order to recoup costs,

01:49:23.800 They said, let's repackage it and just sell it to schools for kids.

01:49:27.220 At no point was learning actually part of it.

01:49:29.680 At no point was cognitive development a part of it.

01:49:31.560 It was just there to make money.

01:49:33.320 And so I think if you want to get cynical, you can say this has been pushed by tech developers as a way to get more customers make more money.

01:49:40.340 But there's no evidence or data that it was ever there for learning purposes.

01:49:44.260 And that's where we got to start pushing back now.

01:49:47.140 Well, to me, it's interesting because the message has gotten out a lot about, you know, you shouldn't have your kid doing a ton of screen time for gaming or TV or YouTube, you know, watching the iPad all day long.

01:49:59.480 We know that's bad for kids, but this is something else.

01:50:02.080 This is happening in school with teachers where they have to pay attention and they have to do it.

01:50:07.140 So you're talking about pushing your child's educators to stop doing what exactly?

01:50:13.340 What's the ask?

01:50:14.020 The ask is pull tech way back when it comes to learning, because digital technology, if we ever get to the data is one thing, plenty of data showing that it doesn't work.

01:50:23.600 I think the more interesting story is why once we understand how biological learning works, what are the principles here?

01:50:29.540 You start to see that this tool simply doesn't align with human learning.

01:50:33.340 It cuts against the grain.

01:50:34.780 So any time we bring this tool out in a classroom, almost invariably, learning will go down.

01:50:40.240 So the call is really to start to pull it back.

01:50:42.580 if you're going to use tech in schools, you better have a big intention for it. Like there

01:50:46.680 better be a clear reason why you're using it. And the easiest way to do that is basically to

01:50:51.320 return to what we were doing, say, in the late 90s or early nots, reinstitute the computer lab

01:50:56.620 or the computer cart. Right now, 88% of public school districts in the US give kids a laptop.

01:51:02.760 So that means a laptop is the default. Time to take notes, take out your laptop. Time to read

01:51:07.300 of passage, get your laptop. If we take that option away and we say, okay, you want to use

01:51:12.600 the laptop. It's there. It's just on the other side of school. Now teachers have to be very

01:51:16.880 deliberate. Is it worth standing my kids up, walking them across school, sitting them down,

01:51:20.940 logging them in? That's like 10 minutes of class time. Is it worth that to use the tool? If so,

01:51:25.900 there it is. But nine times out of 10, you'll see, no, it's not worth it. We were just using

01:51:29.640 it because it was there. It was easy. Add more friction to the tech. Make sure kids don't have

01:51:34.420 free access to it, now teachers will be more reasonable, meaningful with it. Learning should

01:51:39.980 start to go back up again. The Scandinavian model is something you point out in your book,

01:51:46.960 The Digital Delusion, as something we might consider following. What'd they do?

01:51:51.640 Same thing as a lot of states are now starting to do, thank goodness, is when it came to the

01:51:55.740 youngest kids, scrap all screens. There's no argument to be made that a young kid needs a

01:52:00.360 screen for learning, especially. Because you've got to remember, digital tools, by and large,

01:52:04.360 they're production tools. They're built for experts to make their jobs easier. But the tools

01:52:10.180 we use as experts to make our lives easier are never the tool a novice should use to learn how

01:52:15.420 to become an expert. When they use the tool, they basically just, it becomes dependence. They

01:52:21.020 offload everything. They outsource. They don't really learn anything in the process. So tech

01:52:25.620 should come in once you have the skill. You know how to do math? Here's a calculator. You already

01:52:30.260 you know how to structure an essay, here's a word processor. So they were really tight on just

01:52:34.360 saying young kids don't need it. Around middle and high school, that's when we're going to bring

01:52:38.820 it in. We're going to have hard limits, say maybe 60 to 90 minutes a day max you can use,

01:52:43.760 and it's going to be locked down. No kid is going to be given a laptop. It's just going to be

01:52:47.480 controlled. And in so doing, what you're going to see is in these Scandinavian countries,

01:52:51.720 well-being measures will start to go back up. Emotional measures will start to go back up,

01:52:56.020 and learning, thank goodness, will start to go back up too.

01:52:58.040 i know one of the things you think parents should do and i i we've done this a bit and i know some

01:53:03.660 other parents who are religious about it is assuming you're not going to challenge your

01:53:08.240 school or your school doesn't listen to you yeah print everything out print it all out all the

01:53:13.580 stuff that they're having your kid do online so your child can study from an actual nine and a

01:53:18.300 half by 11 sheet of paper and read a piece of paper and mark up a piece of paper isn't that

01:53:24.480 interesting just if you do the exact same thing on paper versus a screen learning will go up

01:53:30.720 comprehension goes up learning becomes deeper so you're absolutely right when when students or

01:53:35.480 parents ask me what's the number one thing i can do when it comes to learning in your home now by

01:53:40.120 all means when it comes to entertainment video gaming every family gets to make their own

01:53:44.940 decisions there but when it comes to learning my kids got homework my kids got to read a passage

01:53:48.700 do a worksheet. Print it out. Go plant a tree and print everything out because if you did nothing

01:53:55.200 different with your life but that, your learning will go up. And I think that's another fun

01:53:59.760 mechanism to kind of explore, right? Think about reading. A huge aspect of human memory is space,

01:54:07.280 spatial location. Where in space do things occur? That becomes a big part of our memory,

01:54:11.740 determines how we can access those memories later. Books, just by how they're created,

01:54:16.420 have clear, unchanging three-dimensional locations.

01:54:19.200 Till this book burns into dust,

01:54:20.560 the word health will be 20% of the way through,

01:54:22.740 left page, top left-hand side, it ain't going nowhere.

01:54:25.160 That becomes part of what you learn

01:54:26.860 and determines how you can access it later.

01:54:29.340 So that's why if you're an avid book reader,

01:54:30.900 you know you won't be able to verbatim

01:54:33.420 say everything you've read,

01:54:34.960 but you will know in the book where everything occurred.

01:54:37.940 Like if there's a passage you're looking for,

01:54:39.400 you can almost flip right to it.

01:54:41.160 But if you read that same thing on a screen,

01:54:43.000 now the word health starts on the bottom,

01:54:44.740 goes to the middle, passes out the top. There is no spatial location. So an entire aspect of

01:54:49.340 human memory just gets dumped. So this is why when we start reading from a screen at about the four

01:54:54.560 or five minute mark, your brain will send you a signal saying, I'm not getting this. I don't know

01:54:58.680 where any of this is supposed to go. And so we just start skimming. We go from reading to just

01:55:02.880 looking for keywords and we don't really learn much of anything. So that's just a perfect example

01:55:06.920 of the medium. If you did nothing different with your life, the medium itself will change how you

01:55:11.360 learn how you think. Learn more about all of this in the digital delusion out today. What about

01:55:18.180 handwritten notes? Yeah, that is exactly going back handwritten notes on one hand forces you

01:55:27.100 to focus on meaning. So we've got a lot of research that says if you just take notes with a pen and

01:55:31.100 paper, you will learn more comprehend better than if you type those notes. But another reason for

01:55:36.040 that is a lot of people mistake humans as being brains inside of bodies. Like we are just gray

01:55:44.060 matter hitching a ride in this kind of meat machine. You are not living in your body. You

01:55:49.680 are your body. You are as much your heart as your lungs and your spleen as you are your brain. You

01:55:55.700 are all of this, which means how we work all of this will change our cognition, will change how

01:56:01.180 we think. Now, when we are typing, that is the most mechanical, steady process in the world.

01:56:07.300 Nothing ever here will change. It doesn't matter how hard or soft you hit the letter L. The output

01:56:11.700 is exactly the same. So this means when we type, most people basically just focus on output. I had

01:56:17.000 a thought. I got it out. But when we write by hand, the speed by which we have to write, the shape of

01:56:23.760 our body, the fact that every letter comes out slightly differently, that if I'm using a pen

01:56:28.240 versus a pencil, paper versus cardboard. Everything is so different that it forces your cognition

01:56:33.520 into different realms to the point where you start to think better while handwriting. You

01:56:39.640 start to understand deeper while handwriting because the whole system is now engaged with

01:56:44.320 that process. So in a very real sense, we tend to say typing is transcription of thought.

01:56:50.080 Writing, handwriting is thinking. It's not just organizing thought. It's actually generating

01:56:55.440 different kinds of thoughts, which in turn will lead to deeper learning. So I always say,

01:57:00.420 another easy thing, print it out, use a pen and paper, everything's going to start to go up.

01:57:05.560 It's another thing that we've abandoned. You know, those kids, you look at any college

01:57:09.460 seminar now, every single kid there has got their laptop out. They're typing down everything the

01:57:13.680 professor says. And I guess they think they're going to like read it later, as opposed to just

01:57:18.580 listening, letting it come in through the ears and the eyes and taking down a note that will

01:57:25.240 trigger the memory that you're creating. That is it. You've got to think about this stuff.

01:57:30.060 And that's the one thing we're eliminating from classrooms. So if you take a class with me at

01:57:35.560 university, so I still teach at unis all the time. There is no note taking in my room. You're not

01:57:41.080 allowed a pen. You're not allowed paper. You're not allowed a notebook, a laptop. Certainly not.

01:57:45.000 Everything's basically in the hall. And the kids are all freaked out. And I always say, look,

01:57:49.540 when was the last time you had to take notes when watching a movie? No one's sitting there going,

01:57:54.000 iron man okay who was that that character no you're engaging with the movie and you remember

01:58:00.120 a ton from the movie because you allowed yourself to simply be there that's what learning is as

01:58:05.380 well if you just hang out with me for an hour watch how much more you get and understand than

01:58:10.760 if you worry about how you're going to learn this later through some pdf or printout be with me you

01:58:15.800 will learn good but that i agree with that fully but it depends on the teacher and the storyteller

01:58:22.700 right like the the movies are stories that are told generally very well by you know famous

01:58:28.600 directors and producers and so on but you know for example it's always such an offense if i think if

01:58:36.040 our kids don't enjoy their history classes because what is history other than just a collection of

01:58:40.960 stories and they can be really great and the reason you're being taught this particular story

01:58:45.280 on any given day is because a collective group of people thought it was actually a really really

01:58:49.400 compelling story, something important for you to know. So if you're not interested in history

01:58:54.040 class, it's your teacher. I just, I really feel like they're not teaching history through stories,

01:58:59.020 which is the easiest subject on earth to teach through stories. But most of subjects could be

01:59:04.400 taught through stories. And yet so few teachers do it, which I think is why the students often

01:59:11.320 surrender to the monotony of the exchange that's about to happen. You don't actually care whether

01:59:18.920 I memorize it or get it on a cellular level. You just want me to regurgitate what you're spewing

01:59:25.360 so that I can get a good grade on your test and you can tell everybody you're an amazing teacher.

01:59:30.240 Now, bring in digital tech into that. The only time, what's less narrative driven than tech?

01:59:35.380 So tech, basically, all it's going to do is just ask you questions, pound you with dates,

01:59:39.460 and you've got to memorize it. At least with humans, you're right. Some of us are better

01:59:42.880 than others at telling stories. But this is where deep pedagogy really starts to come in,

01:59:47.900 where we can recognize, look, I'm not a storyteller, but I do know there are certain

01:59:52.200 patterns of human learning that will work for everyone, that if we follow that learning pattern,

01:59:57.400 even without narrative, without story, I can make sure you're getting this deeper better than simply

02:00:01.900 by looking at it or accessing it on a screen. So you're right. By all means, some teachers are

02:00:07.460 going to be better than others at the narrative portion. And that's always going to be a big

02:00:11.580 boon to learning. But other teachers who aren't that style, we can at least use human pedagogies.

02:00:16.820 And I think one of the biggest things to remember is we have evolved for 150,000 years biological mechanisms to learn from other human beings.

02:00:26.100 That's basically our superpower.

02:00:27.900 No animal learns through observation and mimicry anywhere near the same way we do.

02:00:32.760 Now, that happens through what we call biological synchrony.

02:00:36.280 So in a very real sense, if you're learning with another human being, what's going to start to happen is your biologies are going to sync up.

02:00:41.900 Your hearts are going to start to beat simultaneously.

02:00:44.420 You're going to start to breathe at the same pace.

02:00:45.960 if I could image your brains, your brains start to look almost identical. In that moment, you are

02:00:51.460 no longer learning from a teacher. You are thinking like the teacher. You're making the

02:00:56.620 same cognitive moves they are. Ergo, learning understanding get much deeper. But this is where

02:01:01.900 even the exact same pedagogy, if you have a boring teacher versus a boring screen,

02:01:06.620 because the screen doesn't allow any biological resonance, learning will go down on the screen

02:01:11.840 compared to the person so even the worst teacher because they are biological and biology is a part

02:01:17.800 of the learning process they should be able to see deeper better results than a non-biological

02:01:23.080 entity teaching using the same basic pedagogies so if you're giving a speech you never use visual

02:01:30.140 aids i will i'm very keen on using one image at a time powerpoints so i have powerpoints but

02:01:36.840 there's never any words on there so everyone's like oh can i have a copy of your slides okay

02:01:41.380 If you want to see a picture of a cat, go for it.

02:01:43.620 But where I kind of think of it like a movie is we can listen to somebody speak.

02:01:48.580 So here's an interesting aside.

02:01:49.920 This is something most people don't know.

02:01:52.020 We cannot read while listening to somebody speak at the same time.

02:01:55.820 It doesn't work.

02:01:56.920 So that is so true.

02:01:59.360 Isn't that?

02:01:59.880 And now go to any lecture at a university.

02:02:02.400 What are you going to see?

02:02:02.960 Someone talking with a slide with a thousand words behind them.

02:02:06.940 Basically, now kids have to choose.

02:02:08.660 Am I going to read or am I going to listen?

02:02:09.900 because we literally cannot do both.

02:02:12.540 So when I'm teaching, there'll be no words,

02:02:14.920 but one thing we can do is listen to somebody speak

02:02:17.120 while looking at images.

02:02:18.240 This is why films work so well.

02:02:20.280 So in a half hour talk, I might have 500 slides,

02:02:24.180 but each slide is just one image

02:02:25.860 and I'm using it kind of like a movie

02:02:27.240 just to highlight what I happen to be talking about right now.

02:02:30.100 Now, this picture is gonna highlight

02:02:31.180 what I'm talking about now.

02:02:32.240 At no point is it gonna kill your attention.

02:02:34.100 Is it gonna shift or cause you to multitask?

02:02:36.620 It just deepens what I'm saying.

02:02:38.200 but by all means if the powerpoints break or the technology goes down i'm fine i'll still

02:02:43.540 we'll do just fine just talking okay and last but not least to no one's surprise you are not in

02:02:51.740 favor of the cell phones in the class or in the school or even during the recess or the hall

02:02:58.080 passings like you are a proponent of no cell phone in the school you turn it in the morning

02:03:05.440 You pick it up at the end of the day

02:03:07.000 if it must be there at all,

02:03:08.620 but there should be absolutely no reliance on it.

02:03:11.140 Why?

02:03:12.160 Very rarely do I use the B word, ban.

02:03:15.380 Although to be fair, school is one giant ban.

02:03:17.460 We ban what you can wear, what you can say.

02:03:19.040 We're banning all the time.

02:03:19.840 But the only two academic times I'll use it

02:03:22.680 are smartphones and AI.

02:03:25.080 Smartphones, the data is very clear.

02:03:26.900 If you have a soft policy

02:03:28.760 where kids can't use the phone during class,

02:03:31.460 but they can use it between classes

02:03:32.960 or at recess or lunch, you see no benefits to wellbeing, to learning, to anything. It's only

02:03:39.080 when you do a hard bell to bell ban. Now, the reason for it is, and I won't go too deeply into

02:03:44.820 the mechanisms here, but a lot of our learning happens when we stop paying attention. Our

02:03:51.660 biology needs time to itself in order to consolidate our memories, connect it with other

02:03:57.120 memories, deepen our learning. Now, historically, that time has come between classes. Between

02:04:02.480 classes, we go out, we kick a ball with our friends, we talk, push each other into the lockers.

02:04:06.660 All of that is downtime where your brain can focus on what you just learned and actually make that

02:04:11.640 learning start to stick. But anytime you engage with a deep cognitive activity, your brain doesn't

02:04:17.380 have time to enter into learning mode. It's basically going to just start bleeding things

02:04:21.520 together. So this is why if you leave class and you immediately pick up a phone, there's nothing

02:04:26.440 more cognitive than the blast of a phone. You've never given your brain a chance to actually

02:04:30.840 consolidate, learn that material. So believe it or not, the benefits we want from smartphone bans

02:04:36.440 isn't just in class. We have mechanisms that say it has to be gone between classes. It has to be

02:04:42.300 gone during lunch and recess if you want some of these social aspects to come off. At no point

02:04:47.520 does the phone sound good. So let me ask you a related question. So people who are listening

02:04:51.080 to us right now who are like, okay, I'm going to buy the digital delusion and I'm going to become

02:04:55.040 a smarter person. But I learned a lot in that 20 minute interview and now I'm going to go for a

02:04:59.820 walk should they not now unplug now don't continue listening to a podcast or a book or like now do

02:05:09.260 20 minutes just you and nature to let it all sink in it sounds crazy but absolutely it's it's funny

02:05:15.840 you can see this with what we call higher order thinking skills so these are things like creativity

02:05:20.700 and critical thinking the vast majority of those skills occur when you stop paying attention this

02:05:27.700 is why you rarely solve a problem while you're trying to solve it. But if you leave a problem,

02:05:32.480 you'll come back with a solution. You go to bed with a problem, you'll wake up with an answer.

02:05:36.600 You come up with your best ideas in the shower. The ability to step away isn't cute. It's not a

02:05:41.340 luxury. It is as much a part of the thinking and learning process as anything else. And we got to

02:05:45.500 re-embed that time back into school as well. That makes so much sense. This is such a good

02:05:51.560 idea. Thank you so much for looking so into this and giving us the benefit of your expertise.

02:05:56.620 Jared Cooney Horvath.

02:05:58.020 Again, the book is The Digital Delusion.

02:06:00.580 It is available today.

02:06:02.640 Do yourself and your kids a favor and give it a look.

02:06:05.340 Thank you, Jared.

02:06:06.120 See you soon.

02:06:06.640 All the best with the book.

02:06:07.300 And we are back tomorrow with our friends

02:06:09.480 from Real Clear Politics.

02:06:11.220 Today's election day in at least three states.

02:06:13.880 And we'll have an update on that, among other news.

02:06:16.740 Tomorrow with the guys from RCP.

02:06:18.680 And then for our SiriusXM listeners,

02:06:21.600 we have Doug Brunt swinging by.

02:06:24.400 and we are going to discuss what's the, what's the website. If they want to submit a message,

02:06:29.760 it's Sirius, Sirius.com, SiriusXM.com slash message Megan. And there you can submit an

02:06:38.340 audio message, or if you are so bold, a video one, we may play it on the air and we're going

02:06:44.260 to take callers live in our second hour as well. This is a special thing we do just for our Sirius

02:06:49.120 XM audience. We do it in the month of August. And this is our next up with Mr. Doug Broth.

02:06:56.360 That'll be fun. See you guys then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:07:00.800 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 18, 2026

New Details About Hayden Panettiere's Final Hours, and Jon Ossoff's Disgusting Attack, with Rob Finnerty ｜ Ep. 1381

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