The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - August 20, 2021


106. Fix Your Health Before You're Forced To | Max Lugavere


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 9 minutes

Words per minute

171.73

Word count

11,975

Sentence count

534

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

6

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 We have data now from the NIH.
00:00:02.600 There was that 2018 Kevin Hall study that found that people on ultra-processed diets,
00:00:09.980 when invited to consume ultra-processed foods ad libitum, meaning to satiety,
00:00:15.260 all the food that they wanted, they ended up eating a 500-calorie-per-day surplus.
00:00:20.940 And if you stretch that out over the course of the week, 500 calories a day,
00:00:24.400 that's a pound of fat gain every week.
00:00:26.960 when they took those same people and they gave them minimally processed foods to consume,
00:00:31.920 they ended up coming in at a calorie deficit by about 300 calories. So that's an 800 calorie
00:00:38.100 swing right there determined purely by what you're eating, not by how much you're eating.
00:00:44.180 So what seems to be the case is that what you eat determines,
00:00:47.320 at least to some degree, to a significant degree, how much you're eating.
00:00:51.260 Hello and welcome to episode 106 of the Michaela Peterson podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by
00:01:01.840 Max Lugavere. I was very happy to have him for the second time on my podcast. He was my guest
00:01:08.960 on the second episode of this podcast when I screwed up the video and it was only audio,
00:01:14.940 the good old days. Max is a health and science journalist and a New York Times bestselling
00:01:19.860 author. He returned to discuss more lifestyle options to promote and prevent degrading brain
00:01:25.460 health. You guys do not want that. This episode will be interesting for anyone who wants to learn
00:01:30.420 about brain health. Everybody should. Eating healthy food, caffeine, and more. And want someone
00:01:37.240 who's more middle-of-the-road healthy diet. He makes sense to the gluten eaters. Even they can
00:01:42.580 understand this guy. If you're not into going so restrictive on your diet that you only survive
00:01:47.920 off of cows. I get it. I feel that. And that's where Max comes in handy. Everyone who eats the
00:01:54.360 standard American diet should read his books and listen to this guy. Don't forget to subscribe if
00:01:59.300 you like this episode. This episode is brought to you by Super Speciosa. Super Speciosa is a
00:02:04.620 kratom company. Kratom is a herb related to the coffee plant. The leaves or extracts from the
00:02:10.900 leaves, like in this bag, have been used as a stimulant and a sedative. It works on opiate
00:02:16.060 receptors in the brain. So it's been used to treat chronic pain, digestive ailments, and aid in
00:02:20.100 withdrawal from opiate dependency. I always advocate for dietary changes to enhance mood
00:02:25.920 before anything else, diet, exercise, saunas, avoiding inflammatory foods and poison. But if
00:02:31.120 you're still having trouble and you've already tried superspeciosis CBD tincture, they've got
00:02:36.400 high quality CBD products as well. And you felt like it isn't quite what you're looking for,
00:02:40.200 or even if you like their CBD, but you want to try something else just for fun, maybe,
00:02:44.160 or for health whatever kratom might be for you kratom is great for energy support some people
00:02:49.600 will use it as a substitute for coffee or as a pre-workout to get amped up some people use it
00:02:54.960 to manage stress to help them relax super speciosa has different strains some help you relax some
00:03:01.140 give you energy the most important part of this company is super speciosa's kratom is reliable
00:03:08.160 third-party lab tested and approved under the american kratom's association's quality standards
00:03:13.240 program only natural kratom no other ingredients remember this works on opiate receptors so it can
00:03:19.120 cause dependence if you overdo it so do your research google everything you take be super 0.98
00:03:23.420 paranoid know your shit i do i've been someone who's come off of opiates multiple times from 0.99
00:03:27.960 surgeries and i wish i'd known about something like kratom during those lovely periods of time 0.99
00:03:32.820 if you want to try some you can get 20 off if you go to get super leaf.com slash mp and enter
00:03:39.260 code MP for 20% off. That's getsuperleaf.com slash MP promo code MP for 20% off. Enjoy the rest of
00:03:48.000 this episode. Welcome to my podcast again. It's so good to be back for a second time.
00:04:01.400 What an incredible honor. It's good to see you. Thank you. It's good to see you too. In case
00:04:08.320 anyone hasn't seen the first episode, the first episode did not have video because I didn't know
00:04:13.200 how to do a podcast. And so it was only audio because the video didn't work. So this time it
00:04:18.920 has video, but if they haven't seen the first one, can you give a brief background about who you are
00:04:23.020 and what it is you do? Yeah, absolutely. And also thank you for having me on as one of the first
00:04:28.160 episodes. I was one of the premier episodes of your podcast. So what an incredible privilege
00:04:33.760 that was. So my name is Max Lugavere. I'm a health and science journalist. I started as a
00:04:39.760 generalist. My career began as a producer and journalist for a TV network in the United States
00:04:45.180 that I did for six years. But I've always had a penchant for health and nutrition and health
00:04:49.020 science. In college, I spent the first three years on a pre-med track, but I pivoted when I realized
00:04:55.520 that I loved storytelling and creativity and that I had more of an entrepreneurial brain.
00:05:02.720 I think I've always had subclinical ADD in the sense that it was always very hard for me to focus on things that I wasn't very passionate about.
00:05:11.940 And so for that reason, my grades academically, I was just never, you know, an amazing student, the kind of student that would be competitive had I gone the med school route.
00:05:21.320 And ultimately, I think I made the best decision for me and my own personal happiness.
00:05:26.140 So I went into this field as a journalist and I did that for six years.
00:05:32.740 And then when I left that job where I got to work with some of the best of the best in the field, it was then in my personal life that my mother got sick.
00:05:42.360 And she developed what would ultimately be diagnosed as a rare form of dementia, a form of dementia called Lewy body dementia, which is akin to having Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease at the same time.
00:05:53.820 And as I mentioned, I'd always been passionate about health and nutrition.
00:05:57.620 So when this happened in my personal life, I decided to step in and go with my mom to all the doctor's appointments.
00:06:03.760 And ultimately, we ended up in Cleveland, Ohio, where she was prescribed drugs for both Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease for the first time.
00:06:11.320 And what I experienced in every doctor's office from the local clinic just across the street from my mom's house in New York to the Cleveland Clinic, which is one of the most storied academic medical institutions that the United States has, I experienced what I've come to call diagnose and adios.
00:06:32.840 You know, very little in the way of diet and lifestyle is talked about.
00:06:36.640 A physician basically runs a battery of esoteric tests where they write down a few prescriptions on a pad, none of which being any kind of dietary or lifestyle intervention, and they send you on your way.
00:06:47.040 And that stoked a curiosity in me to use the tools that I had acquired, the skills that I had acquired as an investigator to try to look into the medical literature to see if there was anything that could be done from a more holistic standpoint to help my mom.
00:07:01.980 and in tandem with that, what could be done to prevent cognitive decline from being something
00:07:08.220 that I ever have to contend with because I'm somebody who values my brain, my creative output,
00:07:14.420 my intellectual output. And so I just began to dive in and I came at it from a place of, again,
00:07:20.260 curiosity. I knew nothing at the time, although I had a foundational passion for nutrition. And
00:07:25.560 as a journalist, you're trained not as rigorously as a scientist, but you know how to identify
00:07:31.760 what is a credible source versus what is not a credible source. And, um, I'd been sort of
00:07:36.320 plugged into fitness circles and that and the like for many, many years at that point. So
00:07:40.900 I just began to look and look further. And, um, I read as much as I could find on PubMed. I started,
00:07:50.000 you know, I read every book that I could find. I started watching Ted talks, like I left no stone
00:07:54.640 unturned. And then ultimately I decided that I was able, I realized that I was able to use my
00:08:00.140 media credentials, my status as a quasi public figure to reach out to scientists and researchers.
00:08:07.280 And this is before podcasting really was a thing. So I didn't have a podcast at this point. I was
00:08:12.080 just somebody who had a blue checkmark on Twitter. And I began reaching out to people who were really
00:08:17.360 sort of ushering in that I would see as the first and last authors in the primary literature that
00:08:23.720 I was reading that were really ushering in this notion of dementia as a potentially preventable
00:08:28.860 condition. And I wanted to interview them. So I began to interview them for a few projects that
00:08:36.440 I was developing, one of which being a documentary on dementia prevention, which I'm still actually
00:08:41.860 working on. And that ultimately led to a number of really incredible opportunities where I've
00:08:46.840 become collaborators with some of these researchers. I've been able to publish
00:08:50.320 literature, peer-reviewed academic literature. So I'm an author. I've written books for the
00:08:56.520 public, Genius Foods and the Genius Life, but I've also been able to co-author a chapter in a
00:09:01.800 textbook that clinicians use to, yeah, it's been, it's been really quite incredible. I've been able
00:09:06.600 to lecture at the New York Academy of Sciences. And so I may, I'm not, I don't, I never misrepresent
00:09:11.440 myself. I'm not a medical doctor. I'm just incredibly passionate about something that's
00:09:14.820 become very personal to me. Um, and I think I have, uh, you know, a bit of an aptitude for this,
00:09:21.620 for understanding and for communicating science. And I always remain sort of open to challenging
00:09:28.680 my own assumptions and beliefs about health and nutrition and the like. So it's, again,
00:09:35.160 led to a number of incredible opportunities. But really, my passion is helping people of all ages,
00:09:39.540 but particularly younger people, live and eat in a way that optimizes their brain health and
00:09:43.680 helps them minimize risk for the kinds of chronic, non-communicable diseases that we know are just
00:09:50.080 ravaging um society these days and and making people sick and shortening people's lifespans
00:09:57.340 and uh part of that has to do with myth busting and um helping people separate fact from fiction
00:10:03.420 but i uh i host a podcast called the genius life and yeah my two books are out genius foods and
00:10:09.760 the genius life and that's actually how we connected i remember hearing about your story
00:10:13.160 and i sent you my first book genius genius yes yeah and it was um i was like this could have
00:10:19.380 helped me years ago. But by that time I was already on the carnivore train or it might've
00:10:25.160 been. Yeah, I was, I was like, just, just newly on the carnivore train. You are the guy that I
00:10:30.500 direct people to if they're like, you know, I'm pretty healthy, but I don't want to get chronically
00:10:37.640 ill later. Are there things I could do now? And I'm like, you should read genius foods because
00:10:44.120 that would convince anybody that simple changes that really aren't that hard to implement can
00:10:51.700 really reduce pain and suffering later. And I think young people,
00:10:57.020 young people who are healthy or who haven't experienced a family member's ill health or
00:11:02.200 their own ill health, totally disregard their diet. They're like, ah, whatever. I can eat 0.98
00:11:08.240 anything. Doesn't matter. I'll deal with me being sick later. And it was like, you don't know what
00:11:13.140 being chronically ill is like. You don't want to deal with that. You want to spend a good portion 1.00
00:11:17.660 of your time making sure you do not have to deal with that because it's horrible.
00:11:23.100 Yeah. Trying to change chronic illness feels like trying to move a cruise ship with your hands,
00:11:33.840 trying to change the direction of a cruise ship by pushing it with your hands. That's what it,
00:11:38.680 that's what it feels like. Because by the time you've already shown symptoms, the disease has
00:11:44.720 set in, like its claws are already well embedded. And I saw this with my mother. I mean, my mom has
00:11:52.580 had a form of dementia that is tragically understudied, but that's because it's rare,
00:11:58.880 of course. But if you take Alzheimer's disease, which is the most common form of dementia,
00:12:02.600 that begins in the brain 30 to 40 years before the first symptom. This is fact. And Parkinson's
00:12:09.740 disease, which had overlapping features with my mom's condition, that's another one of these
00:12:15.420 conditions where by the time you show up to the neurologist with your first symptom, half of the
00:12:19.880 dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra portion of the brain where neurons involved in
00:12:24.060 movement die in Parkinson's disease, half of them are already dead by the time you show up with your
00:12:29.280 first symptom. And that shouldn't be that hard to, that shouldn't be that shocking to consider
00:12:36.200 because the same, it's the same story for cardio, for, you know, chronic cardiovascular disease,
00:12:42.260 for cancer, for type two diabetes. I mean, these conditions take years to manifest. Um, and so
00:12:49.000 to me, rather than live in fear, I think that's an incredibly empowering side of the story that
00:12:54.940 We have agency. We have say when it comes to our health destiny.
00:13:00.140 And unfortunately, you know, like when I started going to those neurologist's office with my mom,
00:13:08.440 thankfully, I had the insight that now for the first time, because I had no prior family history
00:13:13.860 of any kind of neurodegenerative disease. Like I thought Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's
00:13:18.420 disease were something that only really old people got. My mom was not old at the time.
00:13:21.680 so thankfully I had the insight to realize that now for the first time I had a I actually had a
00:13:28.060 risk factor for both of these I could develop exactly what it is that my mom developed because
00:13:33.480 my mom has that condition um and so it became clear to me that this is something that younger
00:13:40.380 people needed to be talking about and so I kind of took it upon myself to get the message out there
00:13:44.380 knowing that I wasn't a medical doctor but that um that I had the ability and the and the desire
00:13:50.720 to communicate science in a way that was balanced and responsible and could ultimately make a
00:13:57.280 difference for people. I don't know why some people, my audience already knows that I'm
00:14:05.340 extremely biased. And if somebody is a medical doctor, I assume that they've been taught something
00:14:10.700 wrong for a really long time. So they're going to be even harder to convince about whatever you're
00:14:16.340 trying to talk to them about, but for nutrition and actually being able to read literature,
00:14:22.400 that's not even necessarily something you'd go to a doctor for because they don't do
00:14:28.180 nutrition specifically. No. So yeah, they get, I mean, they get an afternoon of nutrition training.
00:14:35.180 They get very little training when it comes to exercise, um, and the power that exercise,
00:14:41.440 exercise is medicine right but they're they're not taught that um and at the end of the day i
00:14:48.340 think it's important for people to realize that um there there are some incredible doctors out
00:14:52.800 there so i can't i can't deny that but there also are some really bad doctors there are a lot of
00:14:57.380 really bad doctors doctors are human for one and also medical doctors at least in this country are
00:15:03.000 they're not scientists they're technicians you know they're like trained to operate according
00:15:10.280 to script. And if they veer from that script, then they run the risk of a malpractice suit.
00:15:15.860 So what doctor is going to, um, you know, veer too far from the orthodox path
00:15:24.220 with, with their patient, it's just not, it's not really going to happen. So you kind of have to
00:15:29.580 take matters into your home, into your own hands to some degree. And that's not to say that me and
00:15:36.200 my mother didn't go to doctors looking for answers. We did. I mean, I, I'm, I, we, we wished,
00:15:44.540 you know, often that there would be, I wished that there would be a viable, that there would
00:15:48.160 actually be a viable pharmaceutical, um, agent that could, that could provide relief for my mom
00:15:54.420 and there, and there wasn't. My mother actually, she passed, uh, a little over two years ago and
00:16:00.960 And so, she had struggled from dementia for seven, eight years, but she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, Labor Day 2018.
00:16:10.380 And so, it was just, I mean, it was awful.
00:16:13.980 But what I experienced with her, with oncologists, was the same thing that I had experienced with her with a neurologist.
00:16:21.100 It was like complete deja vu.
00:16:22.580 They were just, they weren't able to offer her anything.
00:16:25.720 I'm not faulting mainstream medicine for that.
00:16:29.260 you know, we certainly went there as opposed to some of these more alternative, um, you know,
00:16:36.300 options, which, you know, there's no evidence for, you know, for these alternatives, you know,
00:16:43.300 treatments, but, um, uh, but yeah, it's just like, to me, I think prevention is so crucially
00:16:49.940 important and we don't know everything at this point, but I think we know enough where we don't
00:16:54.020 have to sit idly on our hands. I agree. So before we delve into some of the things people can easily
00:17:01.280 implement that could potentially save them from years of suffering down the road, how did you,
00:17:10.200 I wanted to ask you because I've had my own share of family health troubles. How did you manage to
00:17:19.340 stay sane during the stress of dealing with somebody chronically ill?
00:17:26.100 Oh man, such a good question. I love, I love that you asked this question because,
00:17:29.640 you know, especially when you have somebody who is on a loved one, who's on hospice,
00:17:35.580 um, you want to spend every moment with that person. But for me, I knew that if I didn't
00:17:42.060 carve out time in my day, every day for self-care that I wouldn't have made it to the other side.
00:17:47.840 And so that's where to me exercise was my savior. Um, during, especially during those,
00:17:55.540 those final three months of my mom's life, I made an effort to get to the gym every single day.
00:18:01.640 And my life at that point had been incredibly stressful. I mean, there was like, obviously
00:18:06.120 what my mother was going through, but there was infighting in my family, you know, about her
00:18:10.600 treatment. And it was just like, it was so stressful, but I, every day I went to the gym
00:18:16.100 And then I took time out and I was sauna-ing, you know, I was like hitting the sauna almost every day, cold plunge almost every day.
00:18:24.520 I mean, there's such a bounty of evidence now showing us that exercise is a tonic for mental health.
00:18:30.620 And so, and I experienced that firsthand, you know, whether it was anxiety or depression, which is something that we all experience, right?
00:18:38.260 there's such a robust but there's meta analyses now coming out that are showing us that whether
00:18:42.580 it's cardio that whether it's more aerobic style training or resistance training both are super
00:18:47.780 effective in treating even clinical cases of of severe depression um and anxiety so that i mean
00:18:57.100 that was a major outlet for me just getting to the gym i mean it feels so good you know you get
00:19:02.220 that endorphin rush. It helps balance neurotransmitters, hormones. You're boosting
00:19:07.940 BDNF in the brain. So you're keeping your brain plastic and agile all the while. There's so many
00:19:15.240 mechanisms by which exercise fortifies your mental health. So that was a big one for me.
00:19:23.140 Eating healthy, I think, is a huge part of it as well. We know now, thanks to this growing field
00:19:27.500 that's being called nutritional psychiatry that food has a powerful say in terms of mood my diet
00:19:32.540 was already quite good um you know pretty privileged in the sense that you know i had this
00:19:38.480 foundation of nutritional knowledge so unlike most americans whose diets are 60 ultra processed foods
00:19:43.880 mine tend to be more whole foods and so um we know that when people with severe depression make the
00:19:51.800 switch from an ultra processed foods diet to a diet that's more whole foods more mediterranean
00:19:55.860 style that, uh, that seems to help, um, with mood, you know? So for me, that was just like
00:20:02.380 a foundational thing. I don't know if changing my, if, if my diet, my diet was certainly supporting,
00:20:06.680 um, everything that I was doing in the gym and the like, but it's self-care. It's really self-care.
00:20:12.740 It's, you've got to make time for it. Um, for any caregivers listening, anybody who's doing
00:20:16.880 anything stressful. I mean, don't start to judge yourself or your situation until you've had a
00:20:22.280 workout and then reassess. The other day I woke up and, you know, I still have bouts where I wake
00:20:28.420 up sad about what transpired. And I was, I felt gloomy. I had no motivation to even get to the
00:20:34.280 gym, but I forced myself to go to the gym and everything cleared up and it felt amazing. So,
00:20:41.340 um, so yeah, exercise really when it comes to mental health and, and weathering the storm,
00:20:45.960 so to speak exercises it's profound this episode is sponsored by carnivore crisps
00:20:52.820 because it's about health and i love them and carnivore crisps rock if you're on instagram
00:20:59.840 you've definitely seen me post about them i can't get enough of their beef ribeye brisket so good
00:21:05.900 carnivore crisps give you an all-natural and delicious alternative to snacking this isn't
00:21:11.360 even snacking, you could survive off of these. I do. Dad basically does. Most so-called health
00:21:17.700 snacks come loaded with preservatives and artificial ingredients. That's not a problem
00:21:21.940 with carnivore crisps. They're only made with beef and salt, or chicken and salt, or pork and salt.
00:21:29.420 They're like Tostitos in levels of tastiness. You can snack the way nature intended with the only
00:21:35.180 snack that truly helps you reach your peak performance, meat. Add some crisps to your
00:21:40.240 regiment and experience the difference made with real meat and real salt real salt if you guys
00:21:45.560 know real salt they're cool too carnivore diet approved lion diet approved michaela approved
00:21:49.940 do yourself a favor give yourself a better and healthier snack this is what they look like
00:21:55.920 they're like really thin like tostitos and crunchy like tostitos so crunchy
00:22:03.460 carnivore crisps.com code mp for 10 off carnivore crisps.com code mp i should also mention real
00:22:12.320 quick they make little dog treats that are also just meat and salt and water because dogs shouldn't
00:22:19.120 eat other things that are also really good look how cute they are beef burgers okay back to the
00:22:23.120 episode i need to be more disciplined with that i've got like there's some stressful seriously
00:22:29.440 stressful things going on and it's like when you first get hit with that load of stress
00:22:34.780 i'm just like first i'm full of adrenaline right for like an extended period of time but when that
00:22:41.300 wears off i'm just tired and i'm like and then i know that exercise would help but i'm so tired
00:22:48.340 but the cold plunge is pretty easily implementable so you can be pretty lazy and still manage to do
00:22:55.560 a cold plunge. Yeah, it's painful. I think anytime you get out of your comfort zone,
00:23:01.520 good things happen. And getting into a cold plunge, it's rarely easy to do. I mean, it's
00:23:08.480 difficult to do, but the benefits are profound. I mean, there's a researcher, Charles Rezon,
00:23:13.940 I believe he's studying cold exposure and mood. There have been a number of case reports published
00:23:19.520 on PubMed where winter swimming, you know, seems to offer reprieve from even the most severe
00:23:26.800 depression. So I'm not saying to circumvent pharmaceuticals, if that's what you need,
00:23:31.200 you know, I would never place a stigma on, on pharmaceutical intervention, but like, 0.97
00:23:35.340 but I think you should always, they fucked me up guys. I placed the stigma there. 0.84
00:23:40.360 Well, I wouldn't be up for years. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not endorsing them,
00:23:47.260 But I'm saying, but, but, you know, meta-analyses tend to show that, well, we know that antidepressant drugs are very much over-prescribed and that for people with mild to moderate depression, they're no more effective than placebo and exercise is just as effective, if not more so.
00:24:08.020 But they are, they are effective for people with severe depression, seems to, seems to be the case.
00:24:13.760 And so.
00:24:14.180 Until they try and get off of them.
00:24:15.920 Oh, yeah. 0.99
00:24:16.560 Well, my mom was on luck there. My, my mom had been on sertraline for many, many years
00:24:22.220 and we tried to get, which is Zoloft. And we tried to get her off of that. And we realized
00:24:28.420 what a nightmare that is to come off of. Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't think I would have made it off
00:24:34.140 mine. So I was on Ciprolex, uh, and so that's an SSRI and I was at a pretty high dose through
00:24:40.360 like developmental years. And when my depression went away, when I went low carb, like it went
00:24:45.300 away while I was on them. And I was like, ah, well, don't need this anymore. And kind of stopped
00:24:51.220 taking them over a period of two weeks because I literally didn't know that you could have
00:24:55.540 antidepressant withdrawal. And the reason I ended up on the zero carb diet, now looking back, I know
00:25:02.940 this. I didn't at the time. The reason I ended up on it was because my brain was in such a state of
00:25:08.000 constant panic from stopping those antidepressants that I was getting SSRI withdrawal from tiny
00:25:15.760 little amounts of carbs. So like light, heat, sound, and then carbs. It's gone now. I don't
00:25:22.840 have antidepressants, any withdrawal anymore. And so I don't get those mood dips when I have carbs
00:25:28.340 anymore. Thank God. But I'm not very happy with that experience, especially considering I didn't
00:25:35.480 know what was going on for like two and a half years. Yeah. I just think that diet and lifestyle
00:25:41.460 should always be the first line of defense. So like, yeah, work with that and see where you are
00:25:48.260 then see, yeah, see where you are. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So for things people could change,
00:25:53.760 if you're your average Joe, you're on a standard American diet, you're getting a slump in the
00:25:59.240 afternoon, maybe you're a little, have some COVID weight. Like what are some easy things people
00:26:05.480 could change to improve their lives? Well, I think, I mean, one of the things that I've done
00:26:11.240 recently or that I do regularly that I think really helps me as I take, uh, hiatuses from
00:26:16.840 caffeine. Um, are you a coffee drinker? No, I couldn't drink coffee either. I can drink tea now.
00:26:23.900 so i'm pretty proud of that i just discovered milk long have you had milk long tea oh i heard
00:26:30.240 you post i saw you post about that and i googled it it's amazing it doesn't have any milk it's like
00:26:36.060 fermented long tea and it tastes like milk and i haven't had milk since 2015 and it is so good
00:26:42.480 i can't picture like a tea that tastes like milk i'm gonna have to it's so good i think if you
00:26:47.360 have had milk maybe it doesn't taste as much like milk as i think it tastes like milk but
00:26:53.240 Anyway, milk oolong. It's great. People should try it anyway. Caffeine.
00:26:57.660 Well, I know that this is going to be a polar. Yeah. The, the, the caffeine abstention is going
00:27:01.740 to be, you know, is going to make some people hate me, but, um, but I love coffee and I love
00:27:07.400 caffeine, but I, I find that it definitely messes me up and it's, you know, I was in denial for a
00:27:11.960 long time about it, but, um, you know, I drink it, I drink it typically first thing in the morning.
00:27:16.760 And I always, you know, I either, if I, if I've, if I consume too much, I experienced that wired
00:27:21.960 and tired sort of burnout feeling, or I just, I feel like I've been hit by a train later in the
00:27:27.380 afternoon. Um, and so I've, you know, at this point now I've taken, I've done this a number
00:27:33.660 of times where I'll take a one to two to three or a month long hiatus from, uh, from caffeine.
00:27:40.880 And I feel like I feel incredible. Like when I, when I do it, it's, it makes me almost not want
00:27:46.080 to go back to drinking caffeine, but I do happen to love the taste of coffee. Um, but whenever I
00:27:51.800 take these breaks from from caffeine i think it's you know because here's what happens when you
00:27:55.740 become dependent on caffeine caffeine is an ergogenic compound so it's a performance booster
00:28:01.340 it boosts mental acuity it boosts physical performance in the gym we know that when you
00:28:05.840 have an acute dose of caffeine however i think when people are dependent on it the boost that
00:28:11.040 they're getting isn't a boost from their baseline performance it's merely treating their withdrawal
00:28:16.140 from caffeine. And so you need to continue to dose yourself with caffeine to have even your
00:28:22.340 baseline level of, of, of performance. Whereas, well, you know, when I, I find that when I take
00:28:28.620 time off of it, um, I go back to having baseline, my baseline level of performance as my actual
00:28:35.540 baseline. And then whenever I bring caffeine back in at the minimal effective dose, I'm actually
00:28:40.740 able to, um, have superior performance to, to my, to my baseline. So I think the key is to just not
00:28:47.380 become dependent on it and to, and to cycle it, to cycle caffeine, which, you know, people do with
00:28:52.180 other supplements in the fitness space. But, um, so I think, I think that's a big, that's a big
00:28:56.560 thing for me, at least currently. So currently I'm, I'm off caffeine. I'm sipping some lion's
00:29:01.300 mane, uh, in a cup. Um, but yeah. And then, I mean, we could talk about diet. We could talk
00:29:08.640 about lifestyle i'm really you know i think you and i share an affinity for animal sourced animal
00:29:15.420 based products um you know i'm a i'm big on on on quality meat um fish eggs things like that
00:29:23.580 really supportive uh in my view of brain health i mean the the strongest body of evidence supports
00:29:29.720 fish you know i mean you can't you can't deny that fish is medicine when it comes to the brain
00:29:34.920 But I think that red meat is as well and eggs, you know, eggs, wonderful source of choline, which is the precursor to acylcholine, which is an important neurotransmitter for learning and memory.
00:29:48.740 About 10% of the population consumes the adequate intake for choline, which is shocking.
00:29:56.660 And there also happens to be a risk reduction for people for the highest tier of choline consumers.
00:30:03.060 I believe it's about a 30% risk reduction for dementia. So observational correlation,
00:30:08.380 but, um, but I think choline is a pretty, pretty important nutrient among many that you find in,
00:30:13.780 in animal foods. Okay. Yeah. So we, we talked, I think last time we talked a little bit
00:30:22.480 about diet and I do want to touch on that, but for genius life, can you tell me some of the things
00:30:31.620 that are important in that book yeah and i want to cover makeup too oh i saw some post about well
00:30:39.140 i wear makeup i'm like fuck it i don't get autoimmune symptoms from makeup and anything
00:30:43.660 that doesn't give me autoimmune symptoms from my god i'll do it but i've heard you talk about a 0.98
00:30:49.500 whole bunch of poisonous chemicals and makeup yeah um i don't know if i'll be able to list
00:30:56.100 them at this point uh but they're but but basically the point that i was trying to drive
00:31:00.820 home in the genius life and with cosmetics and bathroom products and the like is that we're
00:31:06.200 exposed to any number of industrial chemicals on a daily basis and we don't yet have the kind of
00:31:11.660 long-term data to know whether or not these come these compounds are safe every once in a while
00:31:16.380 there will be a big lawsuit like what happened recently with johnson and johnson and their talc
00:31:21.680 powder which was contaminated which had been contaminated with asbestos oh my god i didn't
00:31:27.680 know about this. Was it asbestos or arsenic? It was like, it was, it was one of these, you know,
00:31:31.900 don't, don't, don't quote me on that. Asbestos would be terrible. Arsenic's pretty bad too.
00:31:35.900 Yeah. It was, it was, it was basically one of those. It's very easily Googleable, but women,
00:31:41.220 you know, and, and men, people, boys, uh, put this stuff on their genitals and women were
00:31:47.440 developing rare vaginal cancers, um, you know, at, at, at dramatically increased risk when they
00:31:55.960 had been using this product chronically. Asbestos and ovarian cancer. Did you Google it? Yeah.
00:32:02.820 It's asbestos. Holy shit. Wasn't that, isn't that for babies? Oh my God. I didn't know this. 0.99
00:32:07.760 It's, it's, it's terrifying. So, you know, I like to abide by the precautionary principle,
00:32:13.460 um, which stipulates that the less time a product or a supplement or a medicine or an industrial
00:32:19.340 compound has been you know in the sort of human um like in our sort of ecosystem the greater burden
00:32:28.540 of proof it should bear before we deem it as safe and oftentimes that burden is placed on consumers
00:32:34.500 really it's not placed on on manufacturers and so a lot of these compounds um well for one they
00:32:42.180 exhibit endocrine disrupting potential and there's this big debate so your endocrine system is your
00:32:48.760 they're your hormones. You have leptin, ghrelin, insulin, growth hormone, your sex hormones like
00:32:54.640 estrogen, testosterone. Primarily, these endocrine disrupting compounds are thought to disrupt
00:33:01.040 sex hormones and thyroid hormone. And the problem is that toxins typically, when we think about
00:33:10.900 toxins follow a linear um the the greater the dose the greater the risk of toxicity the greater the
00:33:20.720 danger posed by any any chemical really um the dose makes the poison um that what we call that
00:33:28.160 is a monotonic dose response it's like a linear dose response increasing dose increasing dose
00:33:32.880 increasing toxicity the problem with endocrine disrupting chemicals is that they follow what's
00:33:38.560 called a non-monotonic dose response. It's more like a U-shaped curve. They can have one effect
00:33:42.960 at a high dose, but they can have a completely different effect at a very low dose. We don't
00:33:50.420 know how to study all of the different chemicals that are suspected to have this ability to
00:33:57.780 disrupt our hormones. What that means is that they might test one of these compounds at a certain
00:34:03.920 dose and find the dose at which point it becomes toxic. And then below that, they say, oh, well,
00:34:10.500 it's safe. But the point is that at a low dose, they can have a completely different and still
00:34:15.540 harmful effect. The Endocrine Disruption Exchange, which was a nonprofit doing great work,
00:34:21.720 and I think they've shuttered, but they've identified about 1,400 compounds that humans
00:34:28.600 are exposed to routinely that have the potential for endocrine disruption. And endocrine disruption
00:34:33.520 is like, I mean, the potential consequences of disrupting your hormones can be anything from,
00:34:39.780 you know, unwarranted fat gain to low libido to improper cognitive development, improper brain
00:34:48.460 development. Thyroid hormone, for example, is important for the development of our brains as
00:34:52.880 were growing up. Um, and so that's where I think it's important to be really weary of, uh, you 1.00
00:35:03.320 know, industrial compounds. And that's not to say that natural products are necessarily safer, but
00:35:08.520 I think that, um, but you know, I just, I don't, I don't necessarily trust, uh, compounds as readily
00:35:16.940 when they're synthetic and we're told to just slather them on. Also many of these products
00:35:21.160 like cosmetics, um, which you brought up, you know, they're not, we don't like, we don't ingest
00:35:27.420 them. So they're not tested for that, but they still are able to enter circulation, whether it's
00:35:33.500 through hand to mouth behavior, you know, we touch our face and then we touch our mouths.
00:35:37.860 Um, they, they're able to get into our skin. Uh, we know that BPA, for example, is able to,
00:35:43.260 to get in through our skin and enter circulation. Um, even certain types of dental floss,
00:35:48.400 like dental tape for example dental tape is made of substance that substances that are
00:35:54.560 used to make teflon or non-stick pans and yeah and we know ideal yeah definitely not ideal these
00:36:02.500 are powerful endocrine endocrine disruptors there's a whole movie with mark ruffalo called
00:36:06.360 dark waters all about this how you know these compounds are carcinogenic um
00:36:11.540 yeah they're called perfluorinated alkylated substances or pfas for short and dental tape
00:36:18.740 is made using those kinds of substances and so you want to avoid those and use dental floss
00:36:24.840 instead but yeah there's there's so many and i think it's it's not worth you know going crazy
00:36:31.540 over because you're not going to be able to completely eliminate your exposure to these
00:36:34.600 kinds of things. But, you know, in, in my view, I think it's just important to become aware of,
00:36:42.100 um, these kinds of things. And, uh, yeah. And then from that point, you know, with that
00:36:49.740 information, I think what it tends to do is it tends to lead to either not necessarily using
00:36:55.880 these products, you know, for example, like fragrance products, we're told, okay. Yeah.
00:37:01.240 Thanks to marketing, right? That like humans like should smell a certain way, you know, and that all bad odors are like, you know, something that we want to like put a put a chemical bandaid over.
00:37:14.140 um but fragrances are among the most notorious they're made using phthalates the term fragrance
00:37:21.980 on a you know on a on a cosmetic label could be an umbrella which you know which hides hundreds
00:37:29.280 of chemicals under its under that under that singular term so um so yeah i think i think
00:37:37.480 the the best course of action is just to sort of minimize our exposure to these and to
00:37:42.740 and to opt for natural food-based sources that you know i mean something that you might that you
00:37:48.240 might consume would be something that i would uh you know use on my like face or to brush my teeth
00:37:55.720 with or um to to wash myself with lanolin is really good if you need a lip gloss it also works
00:38:03.780 as a moisturizer lanolin is great uh i use beef tallow i have like a beef from belcampo i have
00:38:09.700 like a beef teller. Oh, do they have a bum? Yeah. Okay. I've, I've tried one of those.
00:38:13.880 I prefer lanolin just because I just find it just, it's extremely effective. Like I used to use
00:38:19.360 before I got all health conscious, I used to use Vaseline when I switched over to lanolin,
00:38:24.660 but, um, I was traveling, speaking of fragrances, I was traveling the summer and I went, I was in
00:38:29.520 Croatia and I got into this house and I've gotten, I guess I've had things set up so well in my own
00:38:38.120 home that I forget how many things can go wrong when you travel. But I got in there and there was
00:38:42.640 this whole something scented and it was so strong that I was like, this is nauseating. Like, I don't
00:38:48.840 know how someone can be in here. So I had to search around. They had this weird container
00:38:53.420 full of this oil with these sticks coming out of it and they were just everywhere. So I put them
00:38:57.660 on the laundry and close the laundry. But then it was like the sheets were covered in whatever soap
00:39:04.240 they were using was scented. So the sheets had this like film of scented soap on them. And I was
00:39:12.180 like, does anyone, does anyone like this? Like there's so many things like now I'm not going to
00:39:16.760 be able to sleep. I have to sleep with a towel on my pillow. Cause my head is going to smell like
00:39:20.480 this stupid pillow. I was like, how do people survive? Well, like using scented laundry 1.00
00:39:27.360 detergent. How do you live like that? Yeah. I mean, I buy everything that I buy in my house
00:39:33.900 is like, it's, you know, scented with like essential oils and things like that. And I
00:39:37.540 know it sounds really woo woo. And I know that there are going to be people in the audience who
00:39:40.680 are like, Oh, nature fallacy, you know, like natural doesn't necessarily mean, mean that it's
00:39:45.260 safe, but, um, but there, there are just too many examples throughout history where industry has
00:39:52.480 foisted a compound onto the public, you know, only later to have seen the unintended consequences
00:40:02.220 unfurl. So, you know, as we talked about asbestos and talc, asbestos in our building, you know,
00:40:09.020 materials, lead in paint, for example. You know, lead in paint, they thought, oh, it helps speed
00:40:14.760 up the drying of paint. What they didn't account for was the fact that paint over time sloughs off,
00:40:20.920 It becomes dust particles in our homes.
00:40:23.360 We breathe it in.
00:40:24.360 We touch it.
00:40:25.360 It ends up in our circulating systemically.
00:40:29.600 The same thing with BPA.
00:40:32.120 Bisphenol A is a well-known endocrine disruptor.
00:40:35.260 It's been known for 100 years at this point that it's a xenoestrogen.
00:40:38.600 It's like a synthetic form of estrogen.
00:40:40.980 Many of our plastic products are made of it, but it's not inert.
00:40:44.960 It's able to migrate out in the form of dust, leach out into our food.
00:40:50.000 When we use BPA containers that are made using BPA and we store fatty, acidic, salty foods in it, it comes off on our cash register receipts and that ends up in our mouths due to hand-to-mouth behavior and also through the skin.
00:41:10.740 And so there are all these just there are too many examples throughout history.
00:41:14.780 And when I look at like my mom's life, she wasn't she wasn't skeptical at all.
00:41:21.900 I mean, she just kind of she was very health conscious, but she listened to the messages that were that were sent to her via marketing, the traditional marketing channels.
00:41:32.280 um and so her home she used all the cosmetics and her home was cleaned using just the standard
00:41:40.420 cleaning products that were fragranced um up the wazoo and so i just think it's important to be
00:41:47.020 you know a little bit more a little bit more skeptical and to have your own sort of you know
00:41:51.080 to have your own back when it comes to minimizing exposure to these kinds of compounds because
00:41:55.920 because corporations don't, we know that. Yeah. I would say be extremely skeptical. I'm so
00:42:03.380 skeptical. It's unbelievable, but I don't seem to be, I haven't been wrong about a lot of the
00:42:08.960 things I'm skeptical about and people, a lot of people who tell you they know what they're talking
00:42:14.240 about too, or like, Oh, this is fine. They don't know what they're talking about. And you, you
00:42:19.340 touched on this earlier. You're like the newer, the chemical or the newer, the drug, it doesn't
00:42:24.700 mean better. I had, um, a couple of people on to talk about pharmaceuticals, specifically
00:42:29.660 psychiatric medications. And it was like, they'll come out with a new one and they'll say, this is
00:42:33.720 the best one. That one has the least amount of data, right? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Well, a wonderful
00:42:41.620 and topical example is the recent, um, Alzheimer's drug aducanumab released by Biogen and fast
00:42:49.780 tracked for approval from the fda right that drug it was there hasn't been a new alzheimer's drug
00:42:56.420 to hit the market in 15 years um and alzheimer's drug trials have a notoriously abysmal success
00:43:03.520 rate um their failure rate is 99.6 so 99.6 of alzheimer's drug trials fail but this aducanumab
00:43:11.760 drug was fast tracked and obviously a lot of people are very hopeful because there are very
00:43:18.880 few effective pharmaceutical treatment modalities for alzheimer's disease but it's been controversial
00:43:24.640 because the drug has been shown to reduce levels of amyloid beta in the brain which is the plaque
00:43:30.380 most closely associated with alzheimer's disease you know alzheimer's disease is characterized in
00:43:33.960 part by this aggregation of amyloid the the amyloid beta plaque as well as misfolded tau
00:43:41.800 protein in the brain um and the drug has been shown to be successful in reducing plaque burden
00:43:48.400 in the brain but it hasn't been shown to move the needle on the most obvious and clinically
00:43:52.960 relevant endpoint which is cognitive function so it the drug hasn't been shown to actually help
00:43:57.320 the cognition or extend life in people with alzheimer's disease it just reduces this you
00:44:03.960 know this plaque in the brain um which who's to say that that is even causal when it comes to
00:44:10.160 alzheimer's disease i mean the amyloid hypothesis is still a hypothesis and so yeah i'm uh
00:44:17.500 uh, I think you just have to be a skeptic, you know, don't be, don't, it's important not to be
00:44:22.940 cynical about these kinds of things, but I think, um, skepticism is something that we don't have
00:44:28.200 enough of. And I think that falls in line with our just overall lack of scientific literacy in
00:44:33.660 this country. Um, you know, we all need to learn, I think more about how to think like a scientist,
00:44:42.400 You know, I'm not formally trained, but my experience with my mom, my passion to help others, my curiosity and my desire for knowledge has led me down a path where, you know, I mean, being skeptical is crucially important.
00:45:00.600 I'm constantly even questioning my own beliefs about and assertions that I've made about diet and lifestyle and the like.
00:45:12.400 Agreed. Yeah. So important. It is important. Okay. How important is it to eat organic food?
00:45:19.940 Does it really matter? Oh man. Um, I eat organic when I'm eating the skin or the rind or the whole
00:45:28.380 fruit or vegetable. Um, I don't think it's important to buy organic, uh, when it comes
00:45:34.540 to something that, you know, has a, has a rind or appeal. Like I would never buy an organic banana
00:45:38.840 or avocado um i think it's important that people know that there's very little nutritional difference
00:45:45.240 when it comes to when comparing organic versus conventional and um you know ultimately uh
00:45:54.820 if you know if you want to eat fruits and vegetables and conventional is the is the
00:46:01.200 only form that is available to you whether you know because of access or because of you know
00:46:06.460 finances, um, I think conventional is fine. There's very little, when it comes to like,
00:46:11.140 there's very little difference when it comes to like essential nutrients, but, um, organic
00:46:17.080 does have, uh, very low, um, you, the very low risk of ingesting synthetic pesticides when
00:46:26.380 consuming organic. Um, they do use herbicides and pesticides in organic, but they're organic
00:46:31.180 approved. And some of them include, you know, copper, for example, which is an essential
00:46:35.300 mineral. Vitamin D is an example of another organic approved pesticide. So, you know,
00:46:42.280 anti sort of organic zealots will say, well, you know, organic still contain pesticides,
00:46:47.640 but you're not getting the synthetic pesticides is I think the point. Also, there's lower risk of
00:46:53.340 exposure to certain heavy metals like cadmium in organic produce. And you're also getting
00:47:00.240 higher levels of plant defense compounds like polyphenols, which are going to be higher in
00:47:06.100 organic produce. Um, because these are compounds that plants naturally will generate to ward off,
00:47:13.200 uh, predation. Um, and so you're getting more in organic, you're getting less in,
00:47:18.600 in conventionally raised produce. It's, you know, it's kind of splitting hairs. I think,
00:47:23.420 um, for somebody on a, on a limited budget, you know, I think that there's a lot of
00:47:28.040 people in the wellness world, um, project this image of perfection that if you can't eat organic
00:47:33.380 all the time, then somehow you're not, you know, you've, you're a moral failure. Um, I don't think
00:47:38.640 that that's necessarily the case. Um, but I, you know, I definitely try to eat organic when, uh,
00:47:44.500 when it comes to dark leafy greens, when it comes to berries, um, things like that. Another
00:47:49.300 completely anecdotal data point. Um, you know, my mother is somebody who never believed in organic.
00:47:54.300 She just didn't believe in it. You know, whether it was her trying to save money or whatever, you know, she ate conventionally grown produce her whole life. So, again, not saying to draw any conclusions from that, but, you know, I'm sort of in a place where I want to examine every aspect of her life and kind of go in the opposite direction because her health was so tragic.
00:48:19.560 So, uh, so yeah, I, you know, those are my, those are my feelings on, on organic.
00:48:27.340 How important is it to eat unprocessed foods?
00:48:32.140 I think that's crucially important.
00:48:34.360 I mean, I, you know, we love to argue in this space about animal based versus plant based,
00:48:40.860 low carb versus low fat.
00:48:42.740 But I think the key determinant of successful aging is really going to be the degree of processing that the bulk of the foods that you consume undergo.
00:48:55.120 If you're your standard sort of your average American consuming 60% ultra processed foods.
00:49:01.900 What does that mean, ultra processed?
00:49:04.380 What does that look like?
00:49:05.920 Yeah.
00:49:06.300 So, I mean, there's like a spectrum of processing that a food can undergo.
00:49:09.780 So, if you look at like a piece of steak, that's meat that has been processed, right?
00:49:14.160 You've cooked it.
00:49:14.960 You've basically outsourced some degree of digestion to make the steak more palatable, easier to break down.
00:49:22.600 Same goes for vegetables.
00:49:24.220 When we cook vegetables, we're processing.
00:49:25.640 When we're cutting things, you know, with a knife and fork, we're processing them to some degree.
00:49:29.740 Ultra processing is when, you know, for example, you take grain flour and you just, you know, put it through these myriad processes that make it so easily digestible.
00:49:39.780 that it, even though it's not overt sugar, it's not a sugar necessarily. It basically is no
00:49:47.460 different to your body. It becomes so rapidly broken down and absorbed at the top of your
00:49:52.060 small intestine. Um, same, you know, uh, ultra processing also occurs to fats. So like grain
00:49:59.080 and seed oils, like canola oil, corn oil, soybean oil. I'm very skeptical of those. I don't, I try
00:50:05.160 to avoid consuming any of those oils because the processing damages those fats that are very
00:50:10.460 delicate because of their high, their preponderance of polyunsaturated fatty acids. And we know that
00:50:16.080 one step in the production process, deodorization actually creates a small but significant amount
00:50:20.200 of trans fats in those oils. And we know that there's no safe level of trans fat consumption
00:50:27.780 at this point um so it's like it's all those packaged processed foods that you see you know
00:50:35.260 lining your supermarket shelves like in the in through the aisles which is where the ultra
00:50:40.600 processed foods tend to tend to be they're the chips they're the commercial cereals commercial
00:50:45.440 breads pizzas pastas they're um you know they're just they're made with machinery and so it's it
00:50:54.260 basically outsources a degree of, uh, you know, it takes very little effort for your body to
00:51:00.620 assimilate. Um, there's probably a relationship between the degree of processing and the
00:51:05.020 speed at which we were able to consume these foods. So I think that that speed in and of itself
00:51:09.520 is, um, potentially one of the problems with the food. Like they're very easy to chew ultra
00:51:16.380 processed foods. You know, they don't require any sort of jaw vigor to, uh, to, to chew and break
00:51:23.360 down you know our bodies begin to assimilate them almost immediately that flood of sugar you know
00:51:29.400 if we're talking about refined grain products hit the bloodstream super rapidly leads to a huge flood
00:51:34.680 of of insulin and um yeah there's a i did an interview with um former fda commissioner david
00:51:42.380 kessler who thinks that you know he basically echoed this that ultra processing is like one of
00:51:47.480 the, you know, biggest problems with the modern food supply. Also, you know, you absorb 100%
00:51:54.820 of the calories of an ultra processed food. Whereas a minimally processed food, like,
00:52:00.140 you know, say you're consuming a handful of nuts, or, you know, some like, you know,
00:52:07.060 barely ripe vegetable or, or, or fruit, or, you know, even meat products, like, you know,
00:52:13.700 you're losing a percentage of these calories nuts for example about 30 percent of the calories of
00:52:19.940 whole nuts just pass through you you know because you're chewing them yourself but you're you're
00:52:24.660 you're not necessarily able to break them down as fully as you know if you were to be consuming
00:52:29.600 nuts in the form of nut butter which is like you know a very processed form of nuts
00:52:34.560 so i think that there are all these sort of issues when it comes to ultra processing also
00:52:40.700 nutrient depletion i mean that's another whole other thing when you look at the packaged processed
00:52:45.640 foods in our in our supermarkets so often they're fortified with synthetic vitamins and minerals
00:52:50.420 because the processing of these foods depletes them of nutrition that's one of the reasons why
00:52:54.540 90 of americans are deficient in at least one essential nutrient so i would say that yeah i
00:53:00.940 mean when looking at the world's blue zones they're you know people like valter longo david
00:53:07.540 Sinclair. They love to cherry pick the fact that they eat lower protein diets, but there are all
00:53:18.340 these variables that are different. But when it comes to diet, I would say the biggest difference
00:53:23.700 is that they're eating foods that are minimally processed, save for the processing that they do
00:53:27.840 themselves when they cook their food. One of my questions was, what about this
00:53:35.000 link between red meat consumption and not living very long yeah so i i'm a huge fan of red meat i
00:53:43.840 do definitely um you know i i try to sort of i situate i'm i think i'm situated sort of in the
00:53:51.600 middle where i see the value of red of red meat and i eat it all the time but i also think that
00:53:58.240 there is merit to the notion that excessively fatty meat should be moderated. And my reasoning
00:54:05.660 for that is that, you know, if you look at wild game, wild game is all there, it's incredibly
00:54:11.580 lean. If you take a cow and you compare, especially a grain finished cow, and you compare, you know,
00:54:17.700 its constituent fat to the fat of wild game, it's way, way fattier. I think grass finished
00:54:24.140 beef is is way healthier in part because we know that it's actually leaner i mean a grass a cow
00:54:30.580 that's eating its biologically appropriate diet is going to be is going to be leaner and some
00:54:35.300 people have genes that cause them to have an over response when it comes to their you know their
00:54:40.060 lipid profile to diets that are excessively high in saturated fat so while i'm a huge fan of red
00:54:47.280 meat i personally you know and i and i do eat fat you know fatty meat all the time i love a good
00:54:51.360 ribeye i love you know barbecue ribs and stuff like that but i do try um for the most part to
00:54:57.040 reach for leaner um cuts of red meat now do i think that there's like when when when all that
00:55:06.200 is said and done there's anything inherently unhealthy about red meat no i think it's actually
00:55:09.600 quite healthy i think it's a superfood in fact i call it a genius food um it's packed with
00:55:14.340 nutrients that we know are important for the brain and body nutrients of concern so i mean like we
00:55:20.320 talked about choline earlier and how 10% of the population consume the adequate intake for choline.
00:55:26.100 Beef is, you know, an amazing source. It's a great source of vitamin B12. It's a great source
00:55:30.160 of iron. It's a great source of zinc. You get tiny amounts of omega-3s, but I think that that's
00:55:36.400 worth something. You also get creatine, which, you know, I would call creatine a conditionally
00:55:42.360 essential nutrient because we know that people who are on diets that lack exogenous creatine
00:55:48.420 and when supplemented, they see an improvement in their cognitive function.
00:55:53.280 So yeah, beef I think is a superfood when it comes to the brain. But we also have to be
00:55:58.720 cognizant of the fact that the brain is fed blood and which contain nutrients and oxygen
00:56:06.680 by a network of micro vessels that are incredibly delicate and tiny. And that if you were to take
00:56:12.360 out of your head and stack end to end would stretch 400 miles long. And that that vasculature
00:56:17.860 needs to be protected and so that's where sort of cardiovascular health and the science on
00:56:23.320 you know lipids and stuff is very fascinating to me and I think also quite important and
00:56:31.680 and so yeah so for example like there's some some thinking and evidence that people that
00:56:38.240 are genetically at risk for Alzheimer's disease carriers of the APOE4 allele for example
00:56:42.100 have a sort of an exaggerated response when it comes to their LDL cholesterol when they consume
00:56:49.160 excess saturated fat. What saturated fat does is it reduces the amount of LDL receptors
00:56:54.540 on the surface of the liver. So, what that can do is it can cause LDL, basically,
00:57:00.440 you know, these lipoproteins that circulate cholesterol and triglycerides through your
00:57:03.500 blood to build up in the blood. And I don't think that that's a positive scenario. And so,
00:57:09.960 So yeah, I think it's ultimately about balance.
00:57:12.860 Do I think that there's anything potentially harmful about high-protein diets?
00:57:18.500 No, I think that protein is crucially important, especially as you get older.
00:57:22.000 There's evidence that people over 65 live longer and have lower risk of cancer when
00:57:26.580 they consume more protein.
00:57:28.180 We know that people in their elder years experience anabolic resistance, protein resistance.
00:57:33.880 So I think protein is incredibly important and meat, animal products are pristine sources
00:57:39.300 of protein.
00:57:39.960 you know, among the highest quality that we have access to. So, uh, so yeah, so I'm a huge,
00:57:45.740 huge fan, um, of, of red meat. How do you feel about people who say it doesn't matter what you
00:57:55.000 eat? It just matters how much, and you should just be looking at calories. Yeah. I love this
00:58:00.760 question? Well, I disagree 100% because I think, you know, we all know that you can eat a diet of
00:58:14.840 Twinkies and as long as you're in a calorie deficit, you'll lose weight, right? But what
00:58:18.080 kind of weight are you going to be losing? You know, so right off the bat, we know that we want
00:58:23.400 to optimize for protein so as not to, so as to minimize muscle protein breakdown, right? So that's
00:58:29.260 So that's one stipulation.
00:58:31.200 We also know that the body has a requirement for certain micronutrients.
00:58:34.580 And we know that many of these nutrients, especially nutrients that are supportive of optimal brain and mental health, are nutrients of concern.
00:58:43.000 And so you can't just eat anything and expect to – you can perhaps eat anything and lose weight.
00:58:48.440 But are you losing the right weight and are you going to feel good and be healthy in the process?
00:58:51.480 And so I'm not one of these like obsessive fitness guys who thinks that it's all about, you know, what the scale says or how you look in the mirror.
00:59:00.160 To me, it's about living a long time healthily, you know, optimizing for lifespan, optimizing for health span and looking good and being strong in the process, which are completely related to living long and healthily, right?
00:59:13.920 Like feeling good, feeling strong, vigorous, robust.
00:59:17.220 um and so and so yeah so i disagree with that statement i do agree though that um that for
00:59:26.180 somebody who is very overweight you know ultimately finding the diet that's going to be most sustainable
00:59:30.560 for them is really the key determining factor and you can lose weight and shift and and you know
00:59:37.080 recompose your body with a number of different diets low-fat diet low-carb diet full-on ketogenic
00:59:44.060 diet. Um, you can do it with a vegan diet. Uh, ultimately I think the key determinant of success
00:59:52.260 is what is, what you're going to actually be able to sustain. And so that's where I think I'm a
00:59:57.520 little bit less dogmatic, but I think where I am a stickler is I'm big on food quality. And I think
01:00:03.960 that, um, it's going to make it a lot easier for you to embrace a diet that is minimally processed.
01:00:10.660 we have data now from the nih there was that 2018 kevin hall study that found that people
01:00:17.020 on ultra processed diets when when invited to consume ultra processed foods ad libitum meaning
01:00:25.220 to satiety all the food that they wanted they ended up eating a 500 calorie per day
01:00:30.160 surplus and if you stretch that out over the course of the week 500 calories a day
01:00:35.140 um that's a pound of fat gain every week when they took those same people and they gave them
01:00:40.740 minimally processed foods to consume they ended up coming in at a calorie deficit by about 300
01:00:47.300 calories so that's an 800 calorie swing right there determined purely by what you're eating
01:00:53.260 not by how much you're eating so what it seems what seems to be the case is that what you eat
01:00:57.960 determines at least to some degree to a significant degree how much you're eating and so if we focus
01:01:04.080 on food quality, which obviously implies that we're going to be getting, you know, more nutrients
01:01:09.340 from those foods as well, higher quality nutrients as well. Um, that basically will do the work for
01:01:15.980 you. And I think because diet, you know, sustaining, uh, a weight loss diet is so difficult for so
01:01:23.760 many people. I think that's really the, that's the elephant in the room that a lot of these like
01:01:28.680 toxico calories in calories out zealots aren't talking about calories in calories out isn't a
01:01:35.040 weight loss strategy it's a mathematical truth but people promote it almost as if it's a you know
01:01:39.900 like as if it should be a weight loss strategy and it's not i think it's a major disservice to
01:01:45.300 the public to to put the focus on calories and not the behavioral effects of the foods that
01:01:52.380 they're eating. So basically if you're eating unprocessed foods or less processed foods,
01:02:00.140 you're less likely to overeat. Absolutely. Yeah. That's what that, that Kevin Hall study.
01:02:06.520 So it's just easier. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't have to count the calories. You can just eat
01:02:11.060 until you're full and you're full faster with less processed foods.
01:02:14.740 I don't, I mean, look, calorie counting works for some people, right? I mean,
01:02:18.040 there are obsessive people in the fitness space. There are people who have never in their life
01:02:21.660 audited what it is that they're eating. And so I think, you know, there is a, there is utility to,
01:02:26.840 to calorie count, but I think when it comes to, again, sustainability, um, do you want to be
01:02:30.700 tethered to your food scale? I don't think so. And, you know, me, many of my followers at this
01:02:36.100 point, you know, like the, the, the sort of anecdotal data that I've seen from just from
01:02:41.900 my following and having my work been out for now a number of years, you know, people are able to
01:02:46.700 achieve and maintain great, you know, body composition almost effortlessly when just
01:02:52.000 thinking about the quality of their food. And then they get all those other benefits. We talked
01:02:56.140 about nutritional psychiatry. We talked about the, some of the nutrients that the brain needs to
01:02:59.760 thrive. You're also like, you're, you're checking off all those boxes at the same time. So that's
01:03:06.320 why, yeah, food quality is, is crucially important. And, you know, going, just going back to that
01:03:11.940 study your average american is in an ad libitum ultra processed feeding environment like your
01:03:19.120 your your average american is eating 60 of their calories from ultra processed foods because they're
01:03:26.220 just they're always around that's what the that's just like the you know that's the double-edged
01:03:32.920 sword of the industrialization of our industrialization of our food supply um and that's
01:03:39.380 why we see these the obesity statistics that we're now seeing you know two-thirds of adults
01:03:44.360 are either overweight or obese by the year 2050 one in two adults like half of the population is
01:03:50.120 going to be obese not just overweight but obese so it's it's shocking but i think um again that's
01:03:57.640 really bad that's like that's gonna get really bad if things don't change i feel like some of
01:04:03.220 the people who are doing this calories in calories out thing are like 30 or 25. And they've only ever
01:04:11.100 been overweight by like six pounds. And they're like, yeah, well, I calorie count and, you know,
01:04:16.140 and I can fit, but it's like, have you ever been 250 pounds? And then you calorie counted your way
01:04:21.640 to a hundred pound weight loss, or are you just telling other people to do that? Because you think
01:04:26.680 sustaining your six pound weight loss was difficult. Yeah. Also many of them probably
01:04:32.480 bordering borderline orthorexic, you know, and, and even if, even if they're not that
01:04:38.840 they come from the fitness world where, you know, many of them are, or have been bodybuilders.
01:04:45.220 And I'm not saying again, that calorie counting and tracking vigorously has no, uh, has no,
01:04:52.340 has no place. Like, you know, right now I'm in, I'm in, you know, I'm in, uh, I have a body
01:04:59.800 composition that I'm happy with. I'm about 13, 14% body fat. And I know that if I wanted to get,
01:05:04.800 if I wanted to start to see veins in my abs, I would have to start tracking, you know,
01:05:08.940 if I want to get down to that, um, if I wanted to dial in my diet that rigorously and, and have,
01:05:16.940 and if my body composition goals were were that extreme um which which are extreme um
01:05:23.700 then yeah of course i would have to track but i don't think that one should have to track
01:05:31.000 to attain a body composition that is healthy for them and healthy is a you know it's a spectrum
01:05:39.360 like, you know, you don't have to have eight or 9% or 10% body fat to be healthy. You can,
01:05:46.720 you know, uh, yeah, you have some leeway there. And I don't think that calorie counting
01:05:53.340 is the answer, but it may be for you, you know, the listener. So, uh, and if it works for you,
01:05:59.500 keep doing it. Yes, that is true. If you found something that works, keep doing it.
01:06:04.620 But if you're hitting yourself over the head with a bat, trying the same thing,
01:06:08.400 and it hasn't worked for you, then maybe start doing some research and looking around at other
01:06:11.880 options. Yeah. If you're trying to moderate your consumption of ultra processed foods,
01:06:16.580 you should know that those foods are not designed to be consumed in moderation.
01:06:20.580 They're not consumed. They're not designed to be consumed in moderation. And we know
01:06:23.740 from, you know, actual peer reviewed scientific research that it's very hard to moderate our
01:06:30.780 consumption of those foods. So, you know, for somebody who's just hearing the age old dogma
01:06:37.280 to eat less and move more, if they take what it is that they're, what they are currently eating
01:06:41.660 again, 60% ultra processed foods. And then they just like cut their portions in half. That to me
01:06:45.940 is a recipe for hunger and failure. I agree. Yeah. Okay. Max, is there anything else we should
01:06:55.080 talk about? I, I, it's been an hour. I asked you a whole bunch of questions. People are hopefully
01:07:00.240 I, yeah, well, it's always great to see you and, um, you know, and I'm, you know, you look radiant
01:07:08.680 and, uh, yeah, always great. Always great to jam. I know we, you know, we, we, we definitely agree
01:07:15.120 more on what we, you know, than what we disagree on. Um, I agree. I do tell people to go over to
01:07:21.780 your Instagram. You have a great Instagram. Everybody listening. Max has a great Instagram
01:07:26.280 for like getting, you do a little bit of calling people out for not people out, but ideas out for
01:07:35.080 not being true. We've got the same general idea about processed foods and what it takes to be
01:07:40.920 healthy. So it's an Instagram I would recommend checking out. Yeah. I try not to call people out.
01:07:46.760 I don't think that it's productive. I think it's, it creates a, it's a, it's a negative energy. And
01:07:51.360 there are a lot of people in the fitness space that love, it's almost as if their whole careers
01:07:55.560 are like calling people out. Yeah. It's a, it gets very clicky. There's a lot of tribalism,
01:08:02.300 but for me, I try not to pay attention too much to what anybody else is doing. Um, I just stay
01:08:08.040 focused on what I believe to be true based on the data that I've seen. Um, and, uh, and yeah,
01:08:16.720 and, and, and, and really helping people. That's what it's about for me. Cause you know, I didn't
01:08:20.700 get started in this to sell books, even though I'm very grateful that my books sell. I didn't,
01:08:27.100 you know, get started in it to be, to have a successful podcast, even though I'm very grateful
01:08:31.380 that people will actually listen to, to my show. Um, it really started for me, um, with, uh, with
01:08:38.880 a very sick loved one and my desire to, to not see what happened to her happened to others that
01:08:45.300 I care about. So, um, I think people get that, that it comes from an authentic place and, uh,
01:08:52.640 and I always, I'm always listening to people when people have feedback. I love getting feedback from
01:08:56.860 others and, um, and yeah, I like to keep the conversation constructive. Cool. Where can people
01:09:04.260 find you if they don't follow you already? Uh, Instagram at max Lugavere. Um, they could pick
01:09:11.860 at my book, Genius Foods, uh, or the genius life, and they can come over and subscribe to my
01:09:17.820 podcast, which is called the genius life and, uh, hope to get you on it soon. So we got to schedule
01:09:22.820 that. We should schedule that. Yes. Thank you very much for coming on. That was fun.
01:09:27.760 Likewise. Thanks for having me.
01:09:41.860 You