00:01:59.160I've been following what's been going on in Afghanistan
00:02:03.000and thought it might be interesting to talk to somebody who was there.
00:02:07.160So I guess before we get started, could you give a brief background about who you are?
00:02:13.200I'm Zakaria Hassani, an Afghanistan-based journalist.
00:02:17.560is I started my work as a journalist, as a local reporter
00:02:22.320for one of the leading TV channels in Kabul, Afghanistan, in 2014.
00:02:28.500I was working with them until May 2017.
00:02:33.880Once in 2015, when I went for the first time,
00:02:36.820Kunduz City in the north of Afghanistan, fell to the Taliban.
00:02:41.520Taliban threatened me and a number of my colleagues
00:02:46.040for, you know, for the special coverage and exclusive coverage of the incident that we had.
00:02:51.880And in 2018, I joined RFI, Radio France International, up to a few, up to two weeks
00:02:59.100ago that I was in Kabul. And I was actually covering Afghanistan for RFI. But right now,
00:03:06.500it's about five days that I moved to Paris. Three days, actually, three days after Kabul
00:03:12.460failed to Taliban. Okay, so what do things look like there? Like when you say Kabul fell to the
00:03:20.580Taliban, what do things look like on the ground there right now? Well, the day that actually
00:03:26.980Taliban entered Kabul and the Afghan government officially collapsed, Afghan president ran away,
00:03:35.500I was there. I was there and I was actually running for my own life. I came to the French
00:03:40.980embassy where uh you know the outlet that i was working for belongs to this country and i
00:03:48.280had an application there so there was a sort of chaos you know in the city everyone was running
00:03:57.060you know was running for their own life no one was no one knew that what to do uh
00:04:03.660it was around 10 ian that you know the people just the rumors started among the people that
00:04:10.560Taliban have entered Kabul city from the west part of from the west part of Kabul city and I don't
00:04:17.260know what happens that everyone was you know somehow escaping the west of the Kabul and they0.98
00:04:22.400were coming toward the center of Kabul and toward the eastern part of the Kabul so it was a total
00:04:26.760totally it was a chaos and so I'm sure that you have seen the footage coming out from the Kabul
00:04:35.360airport so that is a consequences of that day and that it can clearly you know gives you a sort of
00:04:42.740image that what is going on Kabul and what's going on totally in Afghanistan so if we talk
00:04:48.360separately in about every corner of Afghanistan for example in those areas in remote areas of
00:04:54.400Afghanistan that now Taliban are controlling or fully controlling them the group could somehow
00:05:01.540implement their restrict rules as they had the same rules in 1990s but in terms of Kabul that
00:05:09.040more people are here you know the journalists are here the international journalists are here so
00:05:15.100there are medias there are channels and ways to you know to disclose the Taliban's atrocities they
00:05:23.340somehow you know avoid themselves of avoided themselves of you know doing the same thing as
00:05:29.020they are actually, you know, doing in the rural areas of Afghanistan. So I think we have gone
00:05:37.860back to the, you know, to the 1990s. It is a big setback for Afghan people. It's a big setback for
00:05:45.680Afghanistan. Okay, so you talked a bit about the kind of rule that they have and the kind of
00:05:52.580restrictions they put on people. Can you just give me a bit more information about what that looks
00:05:57.300In the past three days, I talked to people on the ground. For example, we talked to girls in Bamiyan, in rural Bamiyan province, which is an ancient province that which is home to the biggest Buddhas of, you know, Buddhas of Afghanistan, destroyed 20 years ago by the Taliban.
00:06:14.640When we talked to the girls in Bamiyan and other provinces like Herosity and Kabul,
00:06:20.640the girls were telling us that they are not allowed to go out without men companions.
00:06:27.780Those who come out of their house without covering themselves by hijab or burqa,
00:06:35.300So those who do not have men companions,
00:06:39.900you know, they will face some, you know, fierce consequences by the group.
00:06:45.440And one of my friends in Bamiyan also told me that there was a young girl on their farm.
00:06:52.680A group of Taliban, you know, Taliban militants approached her and they gang-raped that girl.
00:06:59.600This is something that our witnesses told him.0.73
00:07:02.420And he somehow shared their stories with me, gang-raped her.
00:07:06.560And after that, they shot her for no reason.
00:07:09.900So this is a bit of that, a bit of a corner of that story. You know, there are, I'm sure there are plenty of this sort of story that you can find across Afghanistan. But unfortunately, as access has been limited, since the Taliban took control of those areas. So right now we receive very few of these sort of stories. But I'm sure if you talk, if you talk to the people on the ground, you can find out more about this.
00:07:33.800And the other part is that when you talk to the people, they somehow scare up their own lives.
00:07:38.400So that is why they prevent talking to us.
00:07:40.980They prevent talking to media, to journalists.
00:07:45.220But what we have found is that Taliban do not allow girls to continue to go to school or continue studying more than seven girls.
00:07:53.300So they are not allowed to go to, you know, to go to the universities.
00:08:00.240You cannot listen to music as we used to, you know, listen to music on the streets of Kabul and other big cities of Afghanistan.
00:08:07.800Now it is prohibited. And if you listen to music, you will, you know, you will face consequences.
00:08:15.060So if you if you wear jeans, then they will also lash you out.
00:08:24.540they will also punish you they just you know they are just in favor of wearing traditional clothes0.90
00:08:30.500which we call that pirahan tumban and also their fighters are wearing that that is the only clothing
00:08:36.680wearing you know that they are in favor of that and they like that unfortunately and if you wear
00:08:42.200for example jeans t-shirts or you know suit then i don't know what will what they're going to do
00:08:48.640with you. Okay, so in the Western media, I've seen some articles come out that are hopeful that the
00:08:56.680Taliban will be a reasonable government. I saw something from NATO that was like, well, if you
00:09:01.960have, you know, equal rights for women or something, then maybe we could potentially recognize your
00:09:07.100government. So is there, what do you think they're doing with this? Are they pretend, are they putting
00:09:12.920on a different face for some of the media for the Western world? Or like, where's the discrepancies
00:09:18.620Well, this is something, you know, that the Taliban try to impose on people, impose or somehow impose on the international community.
00:09:29.260Since they captured Afghanistan, most of the provinces and after they enter Kabul, they repeatedly try to tell international community that, yeah, we are not the same Taliban as we were in 1990s.
00:09:42.760we have changed, we have a different approach towards women's rights, towards human rights,
00:09:48.220towards freedom of expression, towards, you know, minorities. But unfortunately, I think this is,0.94
00:09:53.940this is our strategy, you know, to give themselves somehow or to be legitimized by the international
00:10:00.280community. But unfortunately, what we see on the ground, this, it, that proves completed the wrong
00:10:07.780way, you know, it somehow contradicted their words with their action. In Kabul city, we have seen
00:10:14.620people that they have been punished, they had their hands being chopped off, you know, by the
00:10:19.800Taliban for, you know, for robbery. In other provinces, the robbers or maybe other people
00:10:26.580are being, you know, hanged up. The Taliban saying that we have hanged them up, you know,
00:10:33.220because of the robbery but you know there wasn't any court at all uh without the without to be0.87
00:10:39.560prosecuted they have been punished you know by the taliban in some parts of afghanistan
00:10:43.560in herod province taliban just killed the families of a journalist uh the deutsche
00:10:49.620journalist while he was escaped you know but uh in order in but but for revenge uh they went to
00:10:57.420his house, search for him, but when they couldn't find him, so they punished him by killing their
00:11:04.620family members and wounding another one, torturing another one, unfortunately. And yeah, when they
00:11:12.120said that our approach has changed towards women rights, but on the ground is not the same. They
00:11:17.020said that women should wear hijab, should wear burqa. So this is the same Taliban that was the0.97
00:11:23.080same rule that they were preaching in 1990s when they are saying that we are we have our approach
00:11:28.680in terms of minorities no we have heard a few days ago and even yesterday not the day before
00:11:35.380yesterday they killed about six Hazara people in Bamiyan for no reason you know the same news the
00:11:43.160same report we have received that they killed some Hazara people in Ghazni province which are the
00:11:47.740minorities the Shiite minorities in Afghanistan so in terms of the education and that previously
00:11:54.160girls education were totally banned now they only allow them to go to school up to eight up to seven0.67
00:12:02.200grades but this is you know only the start maybe if they take the if they fully take control of0.83
00:12:08.220the government and the country you know we don't know what will happen even maybe they they totally1.00
00:12:13.700ban girls from going to school. So I personally haven't seen that change in Taliban that0.94
00:12:19.540Zalmay Khalilzad, the special representative of United States for Afghanistan peace process,
00:12:26.620were repeatedly trying to, you know, trying to say that Taliban have changed. They are not the
00:12:32.560same as they were in 1990s. Or when the Taliban themselves saying that we have changed and we
00:12:39.780have different approach towards you know towards the past 20 years values and achievements that
00:12:46.520we have achieved so what we see on the ground unfortunately prove it wrong they are not changed
00:12:52.100they are the same okay do you think that this kind of resurgence was inevitable if the united
00:13:00.600states was leaving or is it something that could have been stopped it was evitable you know it is
00:13:06.980something that we have to give it hours to talk about it but if I make it very brief it starts
00:13:13.960from the Doha agreement that the United States signed an agreement with the Taliban
00:13:19.020in Doha this agreement somehow legitimized Taliban on the international level and on the0.62
00:13:29.520on the you know regional level following that you know it is the weakness and the lack of will
00:13:36.260in the Afghan leadership that unfortunately led Afghanistan to the point and to the doorpiece
00:13:42.240that unfortunately nowadays we are going through. United States agreement with the Taliban0.68
00:13:48.320give Taliban, you know, somehow legitimize Taliban and give them legitimation, sorry,
00:13:56.620legitimize them. And the, you know, the lack of will in the Afghan leadership somehow, you know,
00:14:04.140brought them inside Afghanistan. But beside this, I think, I believe that nothing of these things
00:14:10.240could happen. Taliban could not capture Afghanistan, could not, you know, occupy Afghanistan
00:14:17.400because we had a strong army, you know, during the past 20 years. We fortunately could build
00:14:24.000and could form an army. But there was, I think there was a sort of, you know, dirty deal between,
00:14:30.520i don't know between afghan afghanistan's leadership and the taliban and maybe united
00:14:36.780the state that brought taliban back to afghanistan we have heard you know from the generals from the
00:14:43.420you know from the soldiers on the ground that taliban were capturing everyone after another
00:14:49.420provincial capital without any fighting for example i talked to some generals in north of
00:14:55.760Afghanistan, they told me that we left the province four hours before Taliban entered
00:15:01.140the provincial capital without a single bullet to be shot. So this shows clearly that there was0.51
00:15:08.120a sort of deal between the leadership and between the Taliban. On the day that Taliban entered
00:15:13.580Kabul, I myself witnessed this one. When I was going toward my house in west of Kabul,1.00
00:15:19.080and then I came back to the center of Kabul, I saw no police, no army, you know, no soldiers
00:15:25.340on the streets of Kabul so Kabul was handed over without you know without without any fight
00:15:32.400so the same story the same threat you know actually or the same thing happened in other
00:15:37.820provinces so this story was available but unfortunately there wasn't any will
00:15:43.240okay okay let's see how are you safe talking about this stuff you said you had to you left
00:15:54.660to get out of Afghanistan and you're in Paris.
00:20:52.540He just put something on a post on his Facebook page and said that because all the banks are closed, I have no money left in my pocket.
00:21:01.380And in order to feed myself, I'm ready to sell my iPhone 12 Pro Max.
00:21:07.860Anyone who is eager for any cost, I can sell this to him.0.89
00:21:12.060So this clearly shows that how disparate people are and how, you know, how black these days are in Afghanistan.1.00
00:21:21.400So I believe it's very difficult for Afghan people to keep, you know, living like this.1.00
00:21:26.780There should be a government as soon as possible, and things should be, you know, corrected.0.99
00:21:32.300Otherwise, people, you know, all the people will flee.
00:21:35.580As we are noticing right now, thousands of people gathered at the Kabul airport, thousands
00:21:41.180more, you know, are fleeing from the borders towards Iran and Pakistan.
00:21:45.900So thousands more already, they are, you know, already they fled Afghanistan.
00:21:49.820So this means that people of Afghanistan do not want Taliban, do not want Taliban regime.
00:21:56.780They don't want to be disconnected again from the world.
00:22:02.440What's the likelihood of, do you think this is going to get worse?
00:22:05.800Like, do you think that they're, I mean, they're already in power, but is there going to be
00:22:09.880any fight back or is it just they're too strong?
00:22:13.020I believe, I believe Taliban is not a group that could govern Afghanistan.
00:22:18.100And I believe that a Taliban takeover of Afghanistan is the start of another crisis, could be the start of another civil war, as we are, you know, seeing the very first and earliest sign of that.
00:22:33.100in panchir as i said before people started resisting taliban in baglan province again
00:22:39.660people started resisting resisting the taliban some other forces are also joining these
00:22:44.700forces in order to you know to fight the taliban and to take back their lands because
00:22:50.520people cannot live with their ideology with their rules and you know taliban what what taliban knows
00:22:59.960is only about pure, allegedly what they say, pure Islam, what they have their own interpretation of
00:23:05.880Islam. They don't know about governing, they don't know about, you know, financial issues, they don't
00:23:10.680know about how to govern a country, how to, you know, have an administration, how to have a
00:23:16.160relationship with, you know, with the world and with the country. So I believe that this is their
00:23:21.380start, and Afghanistan situations, you know, can become more, you know, and could be deteriorated,0.97
00:23:28.060And, you know, we will see, you know, some bad days ahead.0.95
00:23:33.320What's the difference between their religion and what?
00:23:50.560Muslims are divided into Shiite and Sunni sectarian, you know.
00:23:54.120the majority of Afghan people are Sunni and Taliban are also very you know extremist Sunni
00:24:01.960group militia group they believe that whoever followed the same rule that they follow they are
00:24:10.760in the circle of you know Islam as they are but those who are you know somehow preaching or1.00
00:24:16.720practicing or following some moderate forms of Islam they are no more Muslims and they are infidels0.95
00:24:22.760They will be labeled as infidels, as they labeled them in the 1990s.
00:24:27.360For example, Hazara minorities in Afghanistan, most of them are Shiite.
00:24:33.240So they have been killed in the past because of their religion, because of their belief, because of their ethnicity, because of their beliefs.
00:24:42.400So in the past 20 years, Taliban also carried out suicide attacks, you know, targeted, you know, high profile attacks on organizations, on centers that actually, you know, there were homes or actually they were serving the Hazara people or Shiite people of Afghanistan, specifically in Kabul.
00:25:04.380All those, you know, mosques, wedding halls, sports clubs, and maternity war that were targeted before in Kabul, all of them, you know, belong to somehow Hazara people and Shiite people.
00:25:19.180So this clearly shows that they still believe that non-Sunni people or non-Muslim people, we have some other peoples who believe, for example, in other religions, that there are, the number of them are, you know, quite,
00:26:48.760Well, they were formed in 1995 when there was a civil war in Afghanistan
00:26:55.720between the different parties in Afghanistan.
00:26:59.220So Mullah Amar, officially Mullah Amar was, you know, the first leader and the founder of Taliban group.
00:27:07.300Mullah Amar was from Kandahar city in the west of Afghanistan.
00:27:10.840Kandahar city is actually the birthplace of Taliban group.
00:27:14.840At first, Taliban was supported by the Pakistan, by Pakistan and some other regional countries in order to bring disability in Afghanistan.
00:27:23.380and to, you know, to fight other parties in Afghanistan
00:27:28.140that each of them were supported by different, you know, countries.
00:27:33.040So they could, you know, at first in 1995,
00:27:38.000they could very, you know, capture Afghanistan very rapidly.
00:27:41.940So they could govern Afghanistan until 1991.0.55
00:27:45.640That, you know, we have seen that what happened in United States
00:27:53.380And following that, Taliban attacked Afghanistan, and the Taliban regime were collapsed within two months.
00:28:02.580And there was the Northern Alliance that actually, with the help of other parties, you know, they formed a strong alliance in the north of Afghanistan alongside of the United States.
00:28:13.740they fought the taliban so uh what i can tell you about the taliban is that this is not
00:28:20.840a taliban group is not with a with a long history they was uh if you if you just look at back their
00:28:28.140story goes to 25 years ago uh they were pumped yeah the the taliban group was formed you know
00:28:34.680during this afghan civil war would it aim to bring disability to the country not they didn't achieve
00:28:42.460that one but you know the situation just got worse okay wow is there anything else i should
00:28:51.920know about this or that you want to tell people about the situation in afghanistan maybe
00:28:55.460what news sources could be trusted um i think it's quite difficult you know any journalist that
00:29:06.020step in inside afghanistan they are somehow controlled by the taliban yeah being oppressed
00:29:12.500by the taliban so maybe if there is a journalist inside afghanistan they are reporting live
00:29:18.520reporting to you know western media outlets uh you should not 100 percent believe that them
00:29:25.220because you know when you step inside a inside a city that is surrounded with militia with
00:29:31.940savage militia group you know that they have no fear of killing you of course there should be some
00:29:37.780risk option of course there should be some precautions and then you know that the journalists
00:29:42.160should you know take care of themselves they are reporting somehow but you know what the information
00:29:48.000that coming out uh through media they are not hundred person you know they're not that sort of
00:29:53.700information that we should you know lie on them hundred percent but there are people on the ground
00:30:41.500Okay. Got it. Well, thank you very much for coming on. That was, that's horrible that that's happening. Sorry, you had to leave. That's scary.