The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - 125. Addictive Psych Meds ｜ Beverley Thomson

00:00:00.000 yeah akathisia um people call it how do i best describe it and i wonder if you how your dad

00:00:06.520 described it but um people call it the epitome of losing their mind basically because they are

00:00:14.060 unable to control the thoughts that they have it's not just that it's also a physical restlessness

00:00:21.180 restlessness so in a kind of inner turmoil and a physical restlessness so people pace they can't

00:00:28.180 control their their jerks their movements um it's probably one of the most horrible conditions that

00:00:37.680 anybody can find themselves in um and people commit suicide or die by suicide um for two reasons 0.97

00:00:49.000 when it comes to akhetesia so the first one is that they have no control over their mind

00:00:55.440 and their mind is literally telling them to kill themselves.

00:01:00.760 The second is that it becomes so painful and so unbearable

00:01:06.700 that they feel that they have no option.

00:01:12.400 Welcome to the Michaela Peterson podcast episode 125.

00:01:16.900 In this episode, Beverly Thompson joined me to discuss prescription medications

00:01:21.040 like antidepressants and their effects on those who depend on them.

00:01:25.280 I debated whether or not to release this episode because I don't want to absolutely terrify people.

00:01:30.260 Antidepressants are a completely misunderstood medication that cause dependence,

00:01:34.560 and people aren't aware of it, so I'm going to release it anyway.

00:01:37.680 This is serious.

00:01:38.420 For me, after being on SSRIs specifically from the ages of 12 to 23,

00:01:44.000 coming off of them caused me severe depression, sensitivity to sound, light, touch, temperature, and visual hallucinations.

00:01:52.740 The worst symptom was a feeling of overwhelming doom and panic.

00:01:57.000 Those symptoms are a huge part of the reason I had to go to a zero-carb diet.

00:02:01.780 I got sensitive to carbs as well, sugars, chemicals, everything.

00:02:05.720 It was to mitigate antidepressant withdrawal.

00:02:08.720 However, I do believe there's hope for people on them.

00:02:11.440 I got off of mine and through the withdrawal, and I'm doing fine now.

00:02:15.300 I don't have withdrawal anymore.

00:02:16.980 I'm putting out this video because people need to know the dangers of these medications.

00:02:21.000 Going low carb and then zero carb was insanely beneficial to me getting off of these.

00:02:24.880 I don't know how I would have done it without that.

00:02:26.920 Don't lose hope if you're on them and don't suddenly stop taking them, which is what I

00:02:31.320 did.

00:02:32.080 Talk to your doctor, do your research.

00:02:33.840 This is just an episode to help bring awareness to the dangers of these medications, particularly

00:02:38.780 upon sudden cessation.

00:02:41.420 My guest, Beverly Thompson, is a writer, researcher, and speaker with a focus on psychiatric medication

00:02:46.260 like antidepressants, benzodiazepines, and ADHD meds.

00:02:50.400 Beverly has intensely studied how these medications work, their history, side effects, potential for dependence, and the effects of withdrawal.

00:02:58.020 Beverly's worked with the British Medical Association, the Scottish Government, and the UK Council for Evidence-Based Psychiatry.

00:03:05.080 She drew a lot from those experiences to write Antidepressed, a breakthrough examination of epidemic antidepressant harm and dependence.

00:03:12.340 Remember to hit subscribe if you learn anything or enjoy this content.

00:03:20.400 Beverly Thompson welcome to the podcast thank you before we get started could you give a brief

00:03:32.780 background about who you are and what it is you do sure thank you so much for inviting me to talk

00:03:40.480 with you um I am a writer and a researcher and for the past 10 years I have been researching

00:03:48.580 psychiatric medication. My particular area of interest is antidepressants, in particular

00:03:56.680 adverse effects, dependence, withdrawal and prescription drug-induced suicide, particularly

00:04:07.120 amongst the young. I have worked with organisations such as the BMA, the Council for Evidence-Based

00:04:13.040 psychiatry, and the Scottish government.

00:04:18.260 And I've contributed to articles in the BMJ and in mainstream media.

00:04:26.020 Okay, how did you get started doing this work?

00:04:29.300 My interest really started about 15 years ago when I was working in a counselling role in schools.

00:04:35.660 and I started to notice that the language around the children was starting to change

00:04:43.380 and I started to notice people were starting to say things like there's something wrong with him

00:04:49.340 or I think he's got ADHD or and I started to question why we were suddenly blaming

00:04:56.500 children or their brain chemistry a lot of the time for how their ability to cope with what

00:05:04.540 were often very, very, very, very, you know, serious life situations or family situations or

00:05:11.920 things that they were dealing with at school. And that's really where my interest began.

00:05:18.160 Okay. So you started with kids?

00:05:20.300 Yeah, I started with kids.

00:05:22.700 Okay. So do you know how this idea, do you know how our mental health started going into the

00:05:29.580 pharmaceutical industry rather than being attributed to life problems? Do you know the

00:05:33.660 background about how that happened? Sure. I mean, it all started with Prozac in 1988

00:05:40.860 and the mental health monster was born. I mean, it was in 1988 by 2000. I think it was

00:05:50.600 a third of its three billion pound profit came from the drug Prozac. So the medical profession

00:06:00.340 were taught at that time through various campaigns like defeat depression and depression hurts that

00:06:08.340 all of a sudden we had a chemical imbalance and this chemical imbalance was what needed to be

00:06:15.640 treated so it was a chemical imbalance in our brain so suddenly everything that was going wrong

00:06:21.080 and our inability to cope with life was our fault so once SSR drugs were introduced into society

00:06:29.300 we basically bought into the idea that we had a chemical imbalance and we needed a drug

00:06:35.440 we needed a drug to fix it to fix us okay so that was 1988 so this is rather recent

00:06:43.400 yeah that's that yeah 1988 was um the first ssri misdepressant

00:06:50.780 so this idea of a chemical imbalance do you know where that came from like how that theory even

00:06:58.460 evolved? Yeah, well, it came from psychiatry. So psychiatry have been very good at manipulating

00:07:08.260 how we treat our mental health. So they have a book called The Diagnostic and Statistic Manual

00:07:14.520 of Mental Disorders. And I call it probably the most influential book that somebody's never heard

00:07:20.480 of it has at the moment I think over 300 diagnoses in it that we can be given in order to be

00:07:28.540 prescribed drugs or medication to help us cope with things so those terms like OCD and GAD and

00:07:36.300 bipolar were created by psychiatry passed on to our primary care so that they could diagnose us

00:07:45.500 and treat us with drugs. It's pretty simple, really. Okay. Okay. So I want to talk a bit

00:07:53.940 about, I've talked about this on my podcast a couple of times because I had horrifying withdrawal

00:07:59.280 and really terrible side effects that I wasn't aware of because I was prescribed SSRIs at a

00:08:04.340 young age. So let's start off with, do you know percentage wise, is most of your research based

00:08:12.400 out of scotland or do you know percentages for america because i think america might be hit

00:08:17.020 almost the hardest with the pharmaceutical whatever's going on in psychiatry yeah i do

00:08:23.760 quote some statistics in my book and yes north america i think they're at the moment about 45

00:08:31.760 million people who are taking antidepressants and 2.1 million children which is a huge number

00:08:37.980 and of course because of the pandemic the rates have increased sometimes something between

00:08:47.000 at one point it was reported 20% increases and for other drugs up to 40.

00:08:54.480 Oh man okay so do you know do you have any idea what happens to the brain when people are on

00:09:00.360 these medications for extended periods of time? Well that's a problem we really don't and

00:09:07.560 I think I heard your father say once in a podcast that we're randomly guessing and that's pretty

00:09:16.080 accurate you know everything to do with these drugs always comes with a caveat and if you see

00:09:21.120 things in you know a medical journal or in research it always says it is thought that

00:09:27.640 because we don't really know I mean the chemical imbalance theory has been tested for 40 years

00:09:36.800 and it is still unproven but saying that the medical profession are still repeating it

00:09:45.280 non-stop i'll give you is it okay if i give you an example yeah yeah for sure one um this week

00:09:52.280 on mainstream um tv with an um something called this morning which is a program that's in the

00:09:59.720 morning on tv in the uk and it has around 2 million viewers every morning and a gp who is

00:10:06.860 the gp for the program came on and just this week quoted was talking about antidepressants

00:10:14.840 she quoted the chemical imbalance theory she quoted that the drugs are just like taking a

00:10:21.240 drug for diabetes yeah she quoted that they can be taken a long term and it's better if people do it

00:10:29.060 so what we're fighting against even though a lot of research has been done to prove that a lot of

00:10:35.840 things are myths the medical profession backed by psychiatry and pharmaceutical industry

00:10:43.500 really don't want to buy it yeah yeah okay so let's talk about so um my audience is pretty

00:10:54.340 familiar, but like I said, I was on antidepressants. I was on Ciprolex from the age of 12 till 23.

00:11:00.580 And I stopped taking it over a period of two weeks and it was absolutely horrific. And I had

00:11:05.620 no idea what was going on. And I managed to ameliorate some of the, some of the withdrawal

00:11:10.460 by going low carb and like not being around loud noises and bright lights. And it, but it was

00:11:16.860 horrifying. And it took me two and a half years to figure out that, Oh, that was from abruptly

00:11:21.360 stopping antidepressants. So could you talk a bit? And so part of the reason I'm talking about

00:11:27.760 it is because I've seen this happen to a lot of people and they're told it's their underlying

00:11:32.440 condition that's popping back up. And they're not aware that, Oh no, this can be actual withdrawal

00:11:38.260 from a dependence. You didn't know you had on a medication you were told you needed that was safe.

00:11:43.780 So that's why I talk about this, but can you give me some examples of what you've seen as common

00:11:50.300 side effects of say weaning or suddenly stopping these antidepressants well first of all i have to

00:11:58.320 say that nobody should ever stop taking antidepressants called turkey um and they should

00:12:03.800 always take it with the advice of a medical professional or a support service and that's

00:12:09.340 another issue that i hope you can talk about because yeah um you know they don't exist

00:12:14.440 as you know when you were looking for one with your father yeah yeah so the problem is that when

00:12:24.560 when this imbalance is we're told that these drugs cure a chemical imbalance but what they

00:12:30.480 actually do is they create an imbalance so you have basically become you are in a new balanced

00:12:39.160 state. So this drug puts you in a new balanced state, which affects you psychologically,

00:12:46.300 physiologically, and it affects every single part of your being. It's not just about the brain.

00:12:52.960 So when you suddenly, and it can happen just missing one dose, and this is probably the

00:12:59.020 first time that people realize that they're dependent on the drugs. And then of these 45

00:13:05.540 million people most people will be dependent and actually not realize it if they've taken the drugs

00:13:12.860 for anything over sometimes just six months people can become dependent um so what happens is once

00:13:21.220 you start to decrease your body goes hey something not right here and what happens is basically

00:13:30.240 you're starting to become unbalanced again so that new state that you've become your body and

00:13:36.240 your mind have become used to suddenly goes oh don't know where I am right now don't know what

00:13:43.800 I'm dealing with and that's where the withdrawal effects come from so basically a lot of the

00:13:50.720 withdrawal effects and neurological effects so it can start with things like brain zaps

00:13:55.760 feeling sick you can have tremors you can have increased anxiety if you look you can actually

00:14:06.400 have all the things that are listed in the adverse effects so if you look at a patient

00:14:11.960 information leaflet for an SSRI drugs drug you won't be surprised I'm sure you won't be surprised

00:14:19.080 to know that there are about 50 that are listed as common 50 adverse effects and there are about

00:14:27.100 140 that are listed as uncommon or rare now these uncommon or rare ones are not uncommon or rare

00:14:37.180 and you'll be surprised to hear that drug dependence is actually listed as uncommon

00:14:43.740 oh yeah okay so you know they want us to keep taking these drugs and the problem is that

00:14:54.380 because we are in this new balance state every time we try to reduce we think that we're ill again

00:15:03.580 now it would be very very very very very hard for you to suddenly become go back to that state that

00:15:11.880 you were in when you first started taking the drug if you think about the position that you

00:15:17.340 were in then you know you might have lost your job you might have been in a relationship breakup

00:15:23.180 you might have had lots of you know financial problems but how can you be suddenly going back

00:15:31.740 to the same state that you were in so withdrawal is a huge problem and for many people if they

00:15:41.780 read my book they will realize that many people are not ever going to be able to stop taking these

00:15:49.160 drugs and return to their normal state and that's seriously worrying and that's why we need education

00:15:57.540 and we need people especially young people to start to realize if you choose to take these

00:16:04.700 drugs and and you know you have every right to take a drug if you want to take one you need to

00:16:10.880 be informed you need to take it for no longer than six months if you want to if you if you want

00:16:20.840 to to reduce the harm that these drugs can do um everybody has a right to take them if that's what

00:16:27.240 they do but they also have a right they need to be an informed patient and i was sorry i'm probably

00:16:35.540 one thing that i was watching your dad's um podcast that you did with him and i think

00:16:43.520 everybody should watch it it's really really interesting but you know he said a few things

00:16:48.460 that i'm actually he said i should have known these things you know he said uh why the hell

00:16:54.380 didn't i see this coming and he said i didn't understand until i started to decrease

00:17:00.220 is just the same as everyone else they think these drugs are saving their life they think

00:17:07.820 that they can't survive without them but but the ironic thing is actually they are

00:17:13.840 getting to a point probably where they can't survive without them yeah it sounds like such

00:17:20.180 a conspiracy theory like if you're if you're not aware if you're not aware it sounds like

00:17:25.180 such a conspiracy theory. So I'd never heard of antidepressant withdrawal at all. I like,

00:17:31.340 I didn't know that they were dependence forming at all. And I had been actively told that they

00:17:35.640 weren't. And so if I ever, I hardly ever missed a dose, but if I ever missed a dose, I was like,

00:17:40.100 oh, it's the bipolar coming back. So that horrible feeling, I was like, that's my underlying insanity.

00:17:47.480 Right. And that's just, that's what I thought it wasn't until it would do. And it really did take

00:17:53.740 like two and a half years after I stopped taking them to realize that it was drug withdrawal.

00:17:59.080 But I would say people should be very aware. And I talked in another episode that there aren't

00:18:05.040 studies done, I believe over eight weeks of people on any psychiatric medication, which is crazy

00:18:09.780 for health professionals to say, you can take it long-term safely because there aren't any studies.

00:18:15.660 And then I have, I've known a lot of people who've used ways to taper down

00:18:21.360 gradually and get off of them. But unfortunately, like the hard reality is, I think, especially

00:18:28.080 you can talk about this actually about the age difference for when you're young or when you're

00:18:32.020 old. But I know that the percentage of elderly people who are on these medications, especially

00:18:36.740 in nursing homes is super high. And those people probably aren't getting off of these.

00:18:42.860 So it's definitely education is definitely needed. Have you seen, like, say this is something you

00:18:47.860 start because like i got off of everything and i'm okay now but it was the worst experience i've

00:18:53.300 ever had for years every day uh so do you have ways let's talk about first ways that you've

00:19:01.560 learned of in order to at least reduce the dose you're on or potentially reduce the dose let's

00:19:07.840 start with that okay well the problem is that there have as you said right you say there are

00:19:14.500 no studies that have been done in terms of how to reduce. What we have are a few guidelines,

00:19:23.200 very inadequate guidelines, actually. The American Psychiatric Association has a guideline that

00:19:28.380 hasn't been updated since 2010. And we urgently need that to change. So what we're finding is

00:19:37.140 that the best advice is actually anecdotal evidence. And the best way we can learn is

00:19:43.800 from anecdotal evidence so we have at the moment what must be hundreds of thousands of people

00:19:51.020 people who are in you know sites online trying to support each other through this actual process

00:19:58.320 because there are no guidelines from professionals what I talk about in my book is something called

00:20:04.300 harm reduction I compare it to suddenly getting up one day and trying to run a 26 mile marathon

00:20:11.300 and you can't do it it's impossible but what you have to do is prepare yourself for it um

00:20:19.940 the only what the only thing we know is time is your best friend so by harm reduction what i mean

00:20:28.520 is what what what this means is that you you can't view it as an all or nothing

00:20:34.700 um thing because some people as i said will never be able to get off these drugs

00:20:40.980 never some people will be will be able to reduce and manage their dosage over time

00:20:49.840 but nobody should go into it believing that they are actually going to be able to come off these

00:20:57.300 drugs 100 so time dose reduction there are some fantastic sites um sites there are some fantastic

00:21:06.700 there's some fantastic literature and I have a really really detailed resource section in my book

00:21:12.320 because one thing that I wanted to do was inform people and I think that was another thing that

00:21:18.860 your dad said he wanted to inform people so they don't go through this you know that was my book

00:21:25.500 is not a medical book it's not an academic book it's written in a very plain language that means

00:21:32.980 that people can pick it up they can dip in and out they can take the information they need and

00:21:39.280 they can become informed about this subject which is really what we need everybody to do

00:21:46.700 yeah i would also say to reduce some of the fear because like you said some people can't get off

00:21:56.100 of this, which I believe is true, especially with age and length of time and dosage. But

00:22:04.300 there are definitely ways, at least that I've found to help with side effects and to keep things

00:22:10.600 stable, but freaking out being like, okay, I'm dependent on a drug and I didn't mean to get

00:22:16.300 dependent and I need to get rid of it. And then getting rid of it too quickly can be completely

00:22:20.240 disastrous and can end up killing people. Like it makes, it can be make life so miserable that

00:22:25.460 it kills people. So don't do that. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley's 100% grass-fed

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00:24:23.280 off your first order can we talk a bit about say alternatives to medication if there are people

00:24:30.540 who aren't on medication yeah and i think you know the one thing that we have to try and do now

00:24:37.620 is realise that we are being treated for conditions

00:24:41.540 that are not actually medical conditions.

00:24:44.620 So we need to start looking at ways, and I quote Danius Porras,

00:24:48.800 who is an ex-UN special rapporteur who has done a lot

00:24:53.760 about the ways that we should start to think

00:24:56.780 about mental health nowadays.

00:24:59.040 And it's about social prescribing, it's about support,

00:25:04.460 it's about going back to looking at it.

00:25:07.620 in terms of addressing the issues that are making it difficult to cope with our lives

00:25:14.980 and not about taking drugs to cure a chemical imbalance.

00:25:23.940 I think he talks about we need to address personal and societal factors

00:25:29.680 and not address chemical imbalances.

00:25:32.440 And I think that's the way that we have to go.

00:25:34.480 So, you know, things like people need to start looking at alternatives.

00:25:39.240 They have to look at their diet.

00:25:40.960 They have to look at less social time on social media.

00:25:44.960 They have to look at their exercise.

00:25:46.660 They have to take up a hobby.

00:25:50.640 I mean, not everybody can do these things, but if we can, it certainly is a great alternative to becoming anti-depressed.

00:26:00.220 Yeah, it's also effective, right?

00:26:02.480 So for me and for my dad, there weren't, one of the things that was confusing about being

00:26:07.800 diagnosed with depression is there weren't aspects of our lives.

00:26:12.100 Exactly.

00:26:13.040 There were some, but there weren't major aspects that were completely out of place.

00:26:17.000 So relationship was solid, job was solid.

00:26:20.960 Those are two areas that can cause depression.

00:26:24.160 I was quite ill as a child with an autoimmune disorder, and that was really stressful for

00:26:28.540 my family.

00:26:29.380 But dad's depression started before I was born.

00:26:31.480 so that ended up now we know that ended up being

00:26:35.300 entirely i would say caused by diet and his just his response to diet and so it could have been

00:26:43.660 ameliorated by diet um so if people have looked into different areas of their life so like

00:26:49.900 relationships you know job money and if there are problems there you can fix go there and if nothing

00:26:58.860 seems out of place and you're still miserable, then you have to start looking at your health

00:27:02.900 because inflammation can be cause a cause of depression and antidepressants aren't going

00:27:08.160 to fix the underlying problem. They're just going to bandaid it. And even then it, they don't like

00:27:15.220 me being on them. I remember it felt like they helped initially, but then I was numb and depressed

00:27:21.000 and it was better than just being depressed and feeling that raw emotion, but it did not pay off

00:27:26.180 in the end the end was terrible so there are ways you can get around yet yeah yeah and most people

00:27:31.800 you know if you if you think about it most of us if we if we think about it realistically

00:27:39.360 we can probably work out the things in our lives that are making it difficult for us to cope with

00:27:45.940 to cope with life and it doesn't mean that we all have the ability to to to um to deal with them

00:27:53.720 You know, but things like, I mean, I know in the States, for example, there's a huge lack of access to psychological therapy.

00:28:01.700 There's a huge lack of counsellors. There's a lack of psychiatrists and psychologists.

00:28:07.140 And these issues really seriously need to address. But you don't have to talk to a professional.

00:28:14.120 And actually, it doesn't have to be a conversation about your mental health.

00:28:18.820 It can just be a conversation about your life and how you're feeling.

00:28:23.720 And that's a huge start.

00:28:26.560 Yeah, that's a very good point.

00:28:28.740 And if you're not comfortable talking to someone, you can also write.

00:28:32.260 Like some people who are super introverted, you can just try and write out what's making

00:28:36.500 you not feel good in your head.

00:28:38.920 Like here are the problems.

00:28:39.880 Even just identifying the problems can help you work on them.

00:28:44.080 Yeah, I mean, I think so.

00:28:46.840 And, you know, not everybody can access things.

00:28:51.520 And, you know, we have major problems.

00:28:53.280 And one of the problems in the States, I think, that is a huge problem, especially for elderly people, is loneliness.

00:29:00.080 You know, and how do we deal with this?

00:29:02.000 But most people, elderly people who are lonely, are being prescribed antidepressants.

00:29:08.380 And we have to stop this.

00:29:10.400 This is not doing, this is not good for people who need our care and our love to be prescribing them mind-altering drugs at a time when they're most vulnerable.

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00:30:47.680 is raising the bar exclusively for my listeners. If you learn how to spell my name. So good luck.

00:30:54.240 What are the alternatives then for say, say the elderly and for this loneliness,

00:30:59.240 because saying, and I'm, I'm full on, I'm pretty anti antidepressants after what happened to me, 0.77

00:31:06.880 but for the sake of the argument like say you're dealing with people older people and their family 0.79

00:31:13.000 isn't caring for them and they're in old folks homes and they're unhappy like that would mean 0.78

00:31:18.240 an entire system overhaul which we just how are we supposed to do that well that's a very good 1.00

00:31:24.600 question how are we supposed to do that um you know and it is a society issue but the more of

00:31:32.040 mental health monster these the mental health messages aren't keeping us healthy at all you 0.98

00:31:38.400 know disability rates are shooting through the roof and this is because we have bought into this

00:31:44.440 fact that whatever age we are if we have problems coping we're mentally ill um it's a difficult one

00:31:51.520 because it is societal changes that are needed it's not individual changes we can support more

00:31:57.920 we can but some people just don't have somebody there and they depend on society to help them

00:32:03.580 okay children especially as well you know i think we have to start asking the question

00:32:14.820 is it morally is it morally the right thing to do to medicate children with mind-altering drugs

00:32:22.480 does any do we have the right to do that

00:32:24.960 so when i was yeah i agree i agree especially with things like adhd and like maybe like especially

00:32:34.560 with things like adhd but for this is the position my parents were in because i've had a lot of

00:32:39.620 people and they're like well why were you put on something at the age of 12 and so which ended up

00:32:45.560 really not doing me well you know in the end when i stopped taking it abruptly but at the time they

00:32:53.600 were dealing with somebody with an autoimmune disorder and I was having OCD tendencies to try

00:33:00.100 like organizing things like late into the night, uh, extreme anxiety, night terrors. And I wouldn't

00:33:07.460 say suicidal ideation, but I was getting to the point where I was like, maybe it'd be better if

00:33:10.840 I was dead. And that could have been, and I've tried to figure it out. Right. And it could have

00:33:15.400 been partly a response to being sick and it could have been the inflammatory response. My body was

00:33:20.940 provoking but in that period of time when we were unaware that diet played such a major factor

00:33:26.800 it was like what do we do she can't survive like this here's a medication and so i i guess

00:33:33.440 education is what's needed that there are alternatives so yeah and i think the problem

00:33:39.180 is that most parents have already bought into the fact that just like them their children

00:33:47.260 probably have a chemical imbalance that needs correction so they've already bought into this

00:33:53.080 narrative and they see no reason why their children shouldn't be medicated too but you know

00:34:01.320 I do you know I do feel sorry for children for parents because they're kind of in a lot of cases

00:34:07.500 damned if they do and damned if they don't um but the one thing that we do need to start looking at

00:34:14.920 is the suicide rate for children 0.99

00:34:17.720 who are prescribed antidepressants

00:34:19.960 is skyrocketing and twice,

00:34:24.020 I think that twice as likely,

00:34:25.820 2.5 times as likely to have a suicidal event

00:34:29.640 as unmedicated children. 1.00

00:34:32.680 Okay, that's definitely something

00:34:34.380 we should touch on then.

00:34:35.880 Yeah.

00:34:37.000 Okay, so I guess the other side of the argument

00:34:39.460 would be, well, aren't those children

00:34:41.060 already more inclined towards suicide attempts

00:34:44.380 without the medication and so how do we know that it's the medication that's increasing this

00:34:48.480 suicidal ideation yeah there are a number of of robust studies that have been done that i include

00:34:55.300 in my book um and um yeah and they've recently been looked at again very recently and and they

00:35:04.300 are very robust studies so um it's worth people having a look at those but whether you choose to

00:35:13.740 medicate a child I think what you have to do is like I've said before it's even more important

00:35:20.560 that you become a responsible informed person in terms of what these drugs do you know we live in

00:35:28.440 the age of the consumer you know we have access to so much information online you know we have

00:35:35.980 access I think we do something like 3.5 billion google searches a day you know we google how to

00:35:44.840 open a can we google ridiculous things why don't we why don't we take some responsibility and find

00:35:53.960 out more about these these drugs um we need to we really need to start doing it um and I think

00:36:01.480 I think times are changing and I think people are starting to ask more and more questions

00:36:06.760 which can only be a good thing yeah well I hope so and I hope talking about these kind of things

00:36:12.540 make it it more acceptable I certainly had no idea uh some of the effects these drugs have

00:36:19.780 I think for the let's talk about this suicidality that can occur with antidepressant use

00:36:24.760 And like you said, studies show that it is increased and people, I think what happened

00:36:31.660 in my head when I learned about that was what I just said was, well, aren't these people

00:36:36.280 more, more and more inclined towards suicidal ideation to begin with?

00:36:41.140 And how do you know it's the medication causing it, not just the person, but I think we should

00:36:46.660 touch on akathisia a bit, which is a fairly common it's, it's listed in the rare side

00:36:52.740 effects, but it's not particularly rare.

00:36:54.760 so could we touch on that what that is and what that looks like okay apathesia is i call it the

00:37:03.660 a word of antidepressants because i think it's the word that everybody needs to understand if

00:37:10.320 they start to take antidepressants it's a neurological condition that can happen mostly

00:37:15.780 when people start taking the drug when they change dose and when they or when they stop taking

00:37:21.680 um the antidepressants it can also happen with change of generics so if you're suddenly given

00:37:29.700 a drug if you're suddenly given a drug that's a different make of drug the bioequivalence can be

00:37:37.380 anything between 80 and 120 percent so what yeah you suddenly might go into involuntary withdrawal

00:37:45.120 just by just by being given a i think it's only something like 10 percent of drugs that are

00:37:50.620 prescribed in states now that are branded drugs. I had no idea the dosages could be changed. That's

00:37:57.820 so dangerous. Yeah. It's not just the quality of the drugs. It's, you know, and I see now so many

00:38:04.640 times that people who are given a different generic are almost going into what could be

00:38:12.420 termed withdrawal wow it's happening so much um so yeah akathisia um people call it how do i best

00:38:21.920 describe it and i wonder if you how your dad described it but um people call it the epitome

00:38:28.360 of losing their mind basically because they are unable to control the thoughts that they have

00:38:35.900 it's not just that it's also a physical restlessness so in a kind of inner turmoil

00:38:42.460 and a physical restlessness so people pace they can't control their their jerks their movements

00:38:49.440 um it's probably one of the most horrible conditions that anybody can find themselves in

00:38:57.860 and people commit suicide or die by suicide for two reasons when it comes to akatesia

00:39:09.040 so the first one is that they have no control over their mind

00:39:13.720 and their mind is literally telling them to kill themselves

00:39:16.900 the second is that it becomes so painful and so unbearable that they feel that they have no option

00:39:27.320 and this is the saddest saddest part of antidepressants if somebody is in that state

00:39:34.620 you've seen it yourself it is basically like losing your mind and it's horrible and we really

00:39:42.400 really need more information more education there are some fantastic sites so there there's um

00:39:50.960 akathisia 101 which is a continuing education program which is free and it's online

00:39:57.200 and anybody can can can go and do that um and there's an amazing organization called akathisia

00:40:04.420 education i think it's uh akathisia akathisia alliance for education and research which are

00:40:11.920 which is doing some fantastic work to try and make people more aware of this condition

00:40:16.980 the problem is that again people will if they become akathisia people will say it's a relapse 0.87

00:40:26.000 she's mentally ill again she's mentally ill again it's her mania it's her the problem is

00:40:35.240 that a lot of people think that they have become psychotic so a lot of first episode psychosis 0.96

00:40:43.880 as people call it the first time they become psychotic is actually akshesia it's actually

00:40:50.000 drug-induced. And I think this is, I mean, I would love, I mean, it's fantastic that you are

00:40:58.200 someone like yourself is actually trying to create awareness. And I think if Akesesia is one area

00:41:05.340 that really, really needs to be explored and people really need to understand the condition. 1.00

00:41:12.840 yeah and i would say i um yeah that was the worst thing i've ever seen yeah yeah and i've seen some

00:41:23.000 pretty bad things like i've had sick family members i've seen alzheimer's i've seen cancer

00:41:27.380 i've seen i've been through surgeries that was the worst thing i've ever seen by far

00:41:31.820 yeah and i think it's the worst thing because there isn't there is nothing that anybody can do

00:41:39.500 i have seen people easier for 10 years 12 who i i seriously their life has become

00:41:50.840 basically unlivable and this is a lot of it is is chronic brain impairment and a lot of it is

00:41:58.480 that their central nervous system has just become so damaged that without the drugs they can't

00:42:05.100 survive. Yeah. So my dad's out of it. Right. And his was bad. His was like some of the worst

00:42:12.660 akathisia that specialists had ever seen. And it took us years to figure out how to get rid of it. 1.00

00:42:17.600 And I'm not saying that this is, I'm going to tell people what we did, but I'm not saying that

00:42:22.140 this is what's going to work because there's no information out there, but low dose mirtazapine

00:42:28.040 helped with. And so that didn't, which was just a miracle. And then there are case studies on

00:42:39.380 opiates and people are scared of taking those because of the withdrawal, but there are case

00:42:44.020 studies of that helping akathisia. And if you're dealing with somebody with akathisia, which can

00:42:48.300 like manifest, like you said, like bipolar or schizophrenia manifest as so it's misdiagnosed

00:42:54.120 is that getting those people more comfortable

00:42:57.500 is highest priority, no matter what.

00:43:00.500 This isn't something people can tolerate and live with.

00:43:04.060 This is something that's so uncomfortable

00:43:06.020 that they commit suicide.

00:43:08.040 So it doesn't matter what you have to do,

00:43:10.180 but if you can find something that helps,

00:43:11.840 you just use it

00:43:12.520 because those people are in a lot of pain.

00:43:14.560 So there are case studies on opiates helping

00:43:17.000 and they help dad tremendously.

00:43:21.600 And then the other thing we did,

00:43:23.200 which is super controversial, but it's what helped me is I'm on this extremely strict diet.

00:43:29.680 So we got rid of all carbs. And if dad isn't on this, his akathisia comes back,

00:43:35.400 which is completely absurd. And it isn't recognized by the medical community, but

00:43:39.500 that's what happens to me too. So we're not sure if it's permanent nervous system damage,

00:43:46.380 that's just provoked really easily or what's going on but that's what helped us but provoking

00:43:55.000 one of the reasons you don't want to suddenly stop taking your medication is you don't want

00:43:58.140 to provoke akathisia yeah absolutely and um the testimonials in my book are so many of them are

00:44:09.360 tell of people suffering from akathisia and how they coped a bit and the actual pain and turmoil

00:44:18.680 that they went through in their lives and it it's absolutely heartbreaking but we need to we need to

00:44:24.520 learn about this we really do well hopefully people are learning i know with benzodiazepine

00:44:31.060 use they put a black box warning on it in the last year or so but it needs to be something that

00:44:35.920 all medical professionals know so that they're not just saying, Oh, this kid, like even with,

00:44:41.100 even with a kid who's really misbehaving and really depressed and really angry,

00:44:46.780 which is a huge problem because you don't want to be around a kid like that. The kid's unhappy.

00:44:52.740 Like I can understand having a difficult child who's unhappy, but trying to go the more natural

00:44:59.140 route and fixing diet first, and then, and trying other things. Otherwise you can provoke some of

00:45:05.240 these side effects that are fairly common. Do you know how common experiencing akathisia is

00:45:10.880 for antidepressant use? No, I don't have any statistics, but I know it's much more common

00:45:17.100 than we realize. And as you say, it's very often misdiagnosed as something else. So it would at

00:45:25.180 the moment, I think be very difficult to get actual statistics. One of the things that really

00:45:29.880 concerns me about akesthesia is I talk a lot about in my book about vulnerability and how

00:45:36.160 antidepressants make you very vulnerable and in lots and lots of situations but one of the things

00:45:41.540 that we're seeing is if a child is put on a drug say at 12 years old eventually that child becomes

00:45:51.240 an adult so they might go off to university they might make decisions for themselves they might say

00:45:58.680 to themselves i don't really want to take this drug anymore i don't and if they are not informed

00:46:03.140 we are seeing so many young people who suddenly decide to stop taking their medication or change

00:46:09.940 their medication become have akathisia and commit and and and end up dying by suicide

00:46:18.580 and and this is so common and this is another of the areas we need key education is to to to young

00:46:27.900 people to adolescents to tell them that they really really need to take responsibility for

00:46:34.740 their own medication they really really need to understand that they cannot stop taking this

00:46:40.920 suddenly and so that that transition between being a child and an adult when somebody made

00:46:48.780 that decision for you that you will go on that medication suddenly you're responsible for it

00:46:54.020 yourself yourself and unless you have the information there unless you have been educated

00:47:00.640 by your parents you're suddenly in a very vulnerable place

00:47:04.580 yeah it would be nice if and this is something i think should be mandatory in america if this

00:47:12.140 is possible but it people should be educated about this in high school like the percentage of

00:47:17.660 kids on medication is so high that this should be a mandatory course in high school and it should

00:47:23.920 say, Hey, you know, it should teach you about these mental disorders, what different medications

00:47:30.820 are and what the side effects can be. And often are, I don't know if that's ever going to happen

00:47:36.700 or how that would start, but the percentage of people on psychiatric medications, do you know

00:47:42.060 what it is? Is it one in five? Is it more than that in America? One in four. Oh yeah. Okay. So

00:47:51.480 one in four and that's just like you said increased because of the pandemic i think it's

00:47:57.060 about one in four but i think we're still waiting for statistics uh recent statistics to come out

00:48:02.220 canada is actually i've tried to get statistics for canada before i i was speaking to you but

00:48:07.800 it is quite difficult to actually get up-to-date statistics for canada yeah there are many things

00:48:13.700 difficult about canada right now but um you um you have always been in i think in the top five

00:48:21.000 countries in terms of antidepressant consumption yeah do you have any idea why they're

00:48:27.560 so much higher in the states versus other countries um i i think it's it it's just that

00:48:36.980 um they have oh direct consumer advertising has got a huge huge role or obviously if if

00:48:43.960 we're seeing adverts on tv then you know we're going to walk into a a doctor surgery and ask

00:48:52.120 for a drug um and there's been a lot of talk recently about you know should direct consumer

00:48:58.240 advertising be banned and the answer is of course it should because it's a very bad way of educating

00:49:04.520 people about medication because all they're basically doing is selling it um

00:49:09.800 it it needs to stop i think i think there's only america and new zealand that allow

00:49:16.460 direct consumer advertising yeah that's insane they don't allow that in canada for sure

00:49:23.360 yeah yeah i think it's just yeah it's just the two um and and it it plays a huge part in

00:49:31.520 in i mean the number of i think i've got a section in my book actually the number of

00:49:37.660 antidepressant adverts that are on tv it's it's crazy they spend billions uh and and and people

00:49:46.300 are seeing these from a very young age and they think it's just a natural thing to do you know

00:49:51.180 it's just an actual part of life you if you're if you're not coping you go and get a drug you take

00:49:57.020 the drug and hey but the problem is the problem is that as you and your dad discovered once you

00:50:05.640 get that point of um of struggling and you need help there's no way to find it

00:50:13.560 yeah other than like you said anecdotal reports from people online who are all desperate trying

00:50:22.260 to help each other trying whatever might work yeah it's a it's a complete catastrophe and we

00:50:30.620 went, the crazy thing was we went everywhere. Like we talked to everybody and everybody made

00:50:36.640 it worse basically because it was just like, Oh, add this on, add this on. Oh, it's this,

00:50:43.100 you know, Oh, it's schizophrenia or it's bipolar, you know? And, and even though we were aware,

00:50:50.300 no, this is akathisia and this is the cause. What can we do? Nothing also worked like all 0.85

00:50:55.820 the medications for akathisia that people are given are generally benzodiazepines,

00:51:00.020 but if benzodiazepines are causing akathisia in the first place then like what are you supposed

00:51:07.300 to do yeah but it but again it's all about people thinking that they have to rebalance which is

00:51:13.480 basically what they do have to do but that's not the help that people want you know people want

00:51:18.860 help with the actual medication that they're taking it's quite crazy in the states if you look

00:51:25.180 And if you Google antidepressant withdrawal, you'll find some very luxurious places that are willing to relieve you of tens of thousands of dollars to get rid of your antidepressant problem in weeks.

00:51:45.380 Yeah.

00:51:46.840 They can't do it.

00:51:48.580 They just cannot do it.

00:51:50.260 It's not a problem that can be solved in weeks.

00:51:53.320 it's a problem that most of the time takes people years to do it successfully and without any harm

00:52:00.860 but people are buying into the fact that they think these most of them are illicit drug or

00:52:07.680 alcohol rehabilitation places or and but most people are buying to the fact that if they have

00:52:14.080 the money let's give it a try it needs to stop yep i agree okay

00:52:23.200 do I have more I think we covered most of the things I wanted to talk about is there anything

00:52:27.140 you want to talk about specifically other than what we've already covered um I think I I would

00:52:34.420 love to talk more about the generic concept because I think that is is a really interesting

00:52:41.340 thing that people need to know about so if we take Prozac is this okay if I talk about this yeah yeah

00:52:48.040 yeah let's do that if we take prozac as an example so i think prozac was in the states

00:52:54.200 was launched in 1988 and it lost its patent in 2001 so then fluoxetine the generic name the drug

00:53:03.540 could be made by any pharmaceutical company that wants to make it so they they basically apply for

00:53:11.340 what is called an andus so it's an abbreviated new drug application so they send that off to

00:53:17.540 The FDA, and the FDA looks at it, and they don't actually,

00:53:23.460 the easiest way for me to describe it is they don't get the recipe for Prozac.

00:53:29.140 So they don't see how Elalili actually made Prozac. 0.77

00:53:33.260 So all they have to do, I can see your face, 0.81

00:53:37.980 all they have to do is prove similarity.

00:53:45.660 Wow.

00:53:47.540 Okay. So that's all they have to do. They have to prove the drug, its effects are similar. So we are now having drugs from India, for China, from very little regulation over where these drugs are made. There's very little control over the quality of these drugs. There are some excellent books. Actually, if you're going to put some resources on this, I'd love to send you some things that I can.

00:54:14.120 yeah i'll do that i'll do that yeah that'd be fantastic um and especially the akathisia

00:54:20.480 site um so they have to prove that the drugs are similar that's all they have to do so every time

00:54:28.320 you fill a prescription nowadays you might be getting a different make of drug every time you

00:54:36.980 get a new prescription a new script so wow we can go from 80 by equivalence to 120 back to 80 back

00:54:47.980 to 120 the quality of the ingredients might be different they and this is one of the things that

00:54:58.880 is making patients really really vulnerable because if they especially if they're trying

00:55:05.360 to withdraw so you imagine you're trying to withdraw so and you you're not being given the

00:55:13.440 same drug every time it makes it really difficult really really difficult so generics in terms of

00:55:23.300 antidepressants are presenting a huge problem oh that's really interesting so i didn't know that

00:55:29.680 because then I don't think anybody knows that yeah yeah I think it's one of the things that

00:55:35.840 we really start need to start doing more research when we really start looking at

00:55:41.100 it's really important that if people are withdrawing they try and take the same drug

00:55:46.600 all the time but it's impossible because the because of the availability of drugs I mean

00:55:52.500 especially at the moment every time somebody I don't know whether it's I would imagine it's

00:55:58.400 even worse in Canada and North America, but, you know, every time in the UK, somebody goes

00:56:04.100 and, and, and feels this bit, then they're basically getting a different job.

00:56:11.520 Wow. Okay. It's interesting. Very interesting. So, um, yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. You'd

00:56:23.180 think that that, I mean, people automatically assume that everything in the world is just set

00:56:27.680 that more properly than it is so it's like oh yeah you know the pharmacist asks you do you want

00:56:33.120 do you want this brand or do you want the generic brand it's cheaper and so your assumption is well

00:56:38.440 they're the same but one's cheaper and i don't need something fancy it's like brand name clothing

00:56:43.000 right who cares it's like oh no they don't even make it the same way necessarily but it's back

00:56:48.320 to that issue that you know we have to appreciate that we are consumers we are consumers of these

00:56:54.620 drugs and we are paying for them whether it be through insurance with a tax we are paying for

00:57:03.020 them and we deserve to get the quality drugs that we should get i agree okay beverly thank you very

00:57:14.800 much for coming on i'll link your book below but for everybody listening can you just reiterate

00:57:19.720 what your book is and where to find you online. Yeah, sure. My book is called Antidepressed.

00:57:27.560 It's a break to examination of antidepressant harm and dependence. And what I've done is I've

00:57:34.840 written a book that is, as I called it in plain language, it's not a medical book. It's not like

00:57:41.280 a clinic book. It's a book so that people can become informed users of antidepressants. I haven't

00:57:49.380 said in the book that people should not take these drugs. What I've said in the book is if they take

00:57:54.260 them, they need to know about the harms and the benefits of the drug. So where they can find me,

00:58:03.360 I am at TAP support, T-A-P support on Twitter. I am at Med Consulting and I will give you a couple 0.98

00:58:15.000 of sites that you can put in the links. That would be great. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very

00:58:20.280 much for coming on. No, thank you so much for inviting me to talk with you. It's been really

00:58:27.660 interesting and it's lovely to meet you.

00:58:45.000 Thank you.

The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - November 17, 2021

125. Addictive Psych Meds ｜ Beverley Thomson

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