The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - 161 Couples Therapist Advice on Break Ups, Love Languages, and Conflict ｜ Vanessa Bennett & John Kim 161

00:00:00.000 We've seen a big change in that more recently, which has been refreshing, that it's actually

00:00:03.880 more helpful to know that your therapist is a human who struggles.

00:00:06.780 So that was also, I think, part of the kind of motivation to write this the way that we

00:00:11.060 did.

00:00:11.760 Yeah.

00:00:11.940 And Michaela, I don't know if you know this, but you and your whole stories in the book

00:00:16.360 is very personal.

00:00:17.540 It's about your-

00:00:18.980 All the details.

00:00:20.100 All the details.

00:00:20.720 Because we have our client stories in there.

00:00:22.300 So you're the last one.

00:00:23.820 But if you get to the end, let me just tell your audience right now, it's Michaela, it's

00:00:28.240 you.

00:00:30.000 Welcome to episode 161 of my podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. In this episode, I spoke

00:00:41.780 with Vanessa Bennett and John Kim, also known as the angry therapist. I met Vanessa in the

00:00:49.980 spring of 2021 when I was taking care of my dad and he was very ill and I was also navigating

00:00:58.200 a divorce and she helped bring in an outside perspective because normally when things are

00:01:06.320 going wrong in your life I think if that continues to happen in your life you're probably the issue

00:01:11.980 but sometimes it's also extremely bad luck and I think if there's any health issues in a family

00:01:18.520 then that can just upset a lot of relationships as well. Vanessa really helped me through it and

00:01:23.260 she co-wrote a book with her partner, John, called It's Not You, It's Me. And it's meant to

00:01:32.320 help people better negotiate their relationships and identifies a lot of couples problems that

00:01:37.200 many people deal with. So I brought them on to discuss their book and we delved a bit into

00:01:43.260 my past, my current relationship, their current relationship. It was a fun episode. I hope you

00:01:49.560 guys enjoy it and I hope you find it helpful. Before we get started this episode of the podcast

00:01:54.020 is sponsored by Rabbit Air. I just got up and shifted the camera slightly. Rabbit Air is always

00:01:59.520 hanging out over there. There it is. You can see the purple glow. It is an air purifier and given

00:02:07.320 that fall is quickly approaching and almost here now is a good time to buy an air purifier. I've

00:02:13.600 always used them since I was a kid because I'm so allergic to the environment but I think a lot of

00:02:17.820 people could benefit them from them not knowing that they're having allergies to the environment

00:02:23.040 as it is. We breathe in nearly 2,000 gallons of air a day and I think a lot of people have

00:02:27.540 micro allergies to dust or cats or cockroaches if you're in an unfortunate situation that can

00:02:34.520 although I suppose if you're in that type of situation you're probably not able to afford

00:02:37.820 an air purifier. However if for some reason you're living amongst cockroaches probably buying an air

00:02:43.380 purifier would be a good idea. That went in completely the wrong direction. If you're by

00:02:48.120 the beach you could be having dust allergies. If you're in Tennessee you could be allergic to

00:02:51.980 literally everything. Mold is coming around this time of year but my favorite air purifier that

00:02:57.880 I've ever had are these rabbit air purifiers. If you have a cat and you wake up congested or you

00:03:03.660 have kids that wake up with a stuffy nose or you just want to sleep better I would recommend going

00:03:08.740 to rapidair.com today to see their models. They've got very quiet, super quiet, super quiet,

00:03:16.240 very good looking air purifiers. I have them in almost every room in the house. You can also call

00:03:22.060 them 24-7 to speak to a Rapidair consultant. That is R-A-B-B-I-T-A-I-R.com. They're the brand I use

00:03:31.000 and I'm picky about brands and health. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:03:38.740 vanessa and john welcome to my podcast thank you for having us i've actually been following you

00:03:47.340 john on instagram for quite a while the angry therapist i don't know i don't know why but it

00:03:53.680 probably maybe two or maybe three years wow i didn't know that well um you've got a good

00:04:00.880 instagram yeah i hope i'm not disappointing i was waiting for you to say something like i'm sorry

00:04:05.160 there are no refunds no no it's good um before we get started i guess uh can both of you give

00:04:13.680 a brief background about who you guys are and what you do vanessa you could start yeah so my

00:04:18.700 name is vanessa bennett i'm a licensed therapist out of los angeles california um i am an author

00:04:24.580 as of late um was a writer before that but now officially an author um i am a mama to a two and

00:04:31.360 a half year olds and I do all the things. So content creator, I run retreats, you know, work

00:04:37.380 with corporations to help them bring mindfulness and wellness into their spaces. I kind of have

00:04:43.060 my hands in a lot of pots, but, but really working on relationships and specifically on healing from

00:04:48.060 codependent tendencies in relationships. I'm just a crazy Korean dude that meets people

00:04:53.060 at coffee shops on his motorcycle who started that actually after divorce. So like 12 years ago,

00:05:01.360 and uh i started on tumblr and that was uh man that was a long time ago so yeah uh licensed

00:05:08.580 therapist author relationship dating coach i guess a lot of books under your belt yeah a few

00:05:15.900 yeah so do you do you help mostly men or do you help men and women uh i mostly women actually uh

00:05:23.880 just because uh it's um it's changing now but because i started this talking about

00:05:30.220 heartbreaking love and you know relationships uh i think it it drew a lot more women than men

00:05:37.660 yeah yeah it's changing a little bit more now yeah now it's pretty even now it's like 50 50

00:05:42.920 yeah it's been interesting the increase in men wanting to and seeking out this kind of um journey

00:05:49.280 i think once i started um posting about motorcycles and fitness and uh growing my hair out i think i

00:05:58.020 got some more men men that's the way to go yeah motorcycles okay so vanessa um i know you just to

00:06:06.800 give a brief background um i've had like a number of therapists throughout my life and most of them

00:06:11.840 have gone terribly wrong and then you actually helped me out when my dad was extremely ill and

00:06:18.500 i was like navigating a separation which ended up being a divorce and you were extremely helpful

00:06:24.280 because I think from my background of being,

00:06:27.780 I think being chronically ill probably played a role,

00:06:30.400 but I had codependent issues

00:06:33.060 that I didn't know how to navigate.

00:06:34.280 So I had a difficult time knowing when to say no

00:06:37.900 and not feel guilty about it.

00:06:39.620 And I'm much, much better at it now.

00:06:41.820 And I'm also much better since my family's healthier

00:06:44.240 and I'm not around as many people that weren't good for me.

00:06:48.760 That's obviously helped a lot,

00:06:51.060 but that's the background from how you and I know each other.

00:06:53.760 I think I reached out over Instagram when I was like, I need an outside person to tell

00:06:58.800 me if the problems in my life, if I'm causing them, because if I'm causing them, I need

00:07:02.880 to stop causing them.

00:07:04.840 And I think I wasn't causing a lot of them.

00:07:06.860 So which was nice, which was nice as well, I guess, maybe.

00:07:11.080 But that's kind of the background.

00:07:13.320 That's how I know you.

00:07:15.920 But I brought you guys on to talk about your book because you have a new book that's coming

00:07:21.340 out.

00:07:21.560 I think when we release this podcast, it will be out. So it'll be linked below. But it's called

00:07:27.060 It's Not Me, It's You, which I think can be extremely helpful for some people, not everybody,

00:07:33.980 but some people to hear. So what made you guys decide to write this?

00:07:40.240 I've always wanted to write a relationship book. And I thought, what if I wrote it with my partner?

00:07:46.820 And also, you know, her being a therapist, if she wasn't a therapist, that would be different. But

00:07:50.800 I thought it would be interesting for two therapists who are a couple to write a book

00:07:57.340 on relationships. But it was important to me that we came with you and not at you. It was important

00:08:02.620 to me that we didn't stand behind a podium or point fingers. And that's why the title is kind

00:08:08.260 of funny, right? Break the blame cycle. So yeah, I thought it was a great opportunity. But then

00:08:15.240 when we started writing it, I realized, holy shit, this is very activating, because she's

00:08:20.240 going to call me out on all my stuff. And for the book to be good, you got to go there. And so it

00:08:25.840 was actually challenging kind of emotionally. Yeah. And I think for, for me, when we broached

00:08:30.840 the idea of writing it, it was important for me, but also for both of us that we kind of pulled

00:08:35.760 back this you know, there's this misconception that therapists have their shit together and we

00:08:40.800 don't like we're just human and, you know, screwing it up just like everybody else. But also I think

00:08:47.020 a lot of the topics that we talk about in the book, I would say are like the most common issues

00:08:50.960 that we work with couples on when we're working in couples therapy and also happen to be a lot

00:08:56.300 of the most common issues that him and I work on in our relationship. Right. So another way to just

00:09:01.140 say like, here's the basics. I mean, they're not basics. We go in pretty deep, but here's the

00:09:05.560 basics of what we see a lot in ourselves. And then we go, you know, we give a lot of personal

00:09:09.960 anecdotes. I mean, it's, it's part memoir, so we don't really hide anything. We get really kind of

00:09:14.420 open and honest about the stuff that we're dealing with. And I know from experience and I know from

00:09:19.300 working with clients that this whole, like being a blank slate as a therapist and pretending like

00:09:24.640 you don't have a background, a story, your own issues, your own trauma is not actually helpful.

00:09:30.860 You know, it's, we've seen a big change in that more recently, which has been refreshing that

00:09:34.860 it's actually more helpful to know that your therapist is a human who struggles. So that was

00:09:38.500 also, I think part of the, the kind of motivation to write this the way that we did. Yeah. And

00:09:43.380 Mikayla, I don't know if you know this, but you and your whole stories in the book is very personal.

00:09:48.960 It's about your-

00:09:50.320 All the details.

00:09:51.460 All the details.

00:09:52.020 Because we have our client stories in there.

00:09:53.660 So you're the last one.

00:09:55.180 But if you get to the end, let me just tell your audience right now, it's Mikayla.

00:09:59.520 It's you.

00:10:01.060 Not true.

00:10:03.320 That's good.

00:10:04.460 Well, it's already out.

00:10:05.860 That's good.

00:10:06.760 That's good.

00:10:08.440 I actually think I'm going to put my experience in a book.

00:10:11.540 I haven't written it, though.

00:10:12.660 You should.

00:10:13.020 i think i think i'm going to i've written like you've been dabbling yeah yeah yeah and i've got

00:10:19.480 i've got like i don't have the last couple of years which were like which were hard and so

00:10:24.740 i'm just waiting until i'm not like triggered all the time before actually just delving into it

00:10:29.020 again re-traumatizing myself accidentally so wait all your relationship experiences are just the

00:10:34.580 last one that expiration no more like my health issues oh okay like more more chronic health

00:10:42.020 issues that that was like the most traumatizing thing and then the last couple years it was like

00:10:47.800 my dad being chronically ill my mom and I think it's probably going to be mostly about that

00:10:54.000 when I'm feeling good and ready I kind of want to just get it out though do you guys feel any

00:11:00.140 relief getting it out or was it more like this is going to help a lot of people I think I do I mean

00:11:05.280 I actually think there was part of our story that we wrote about especially the beginning we had a

00:11:09.600 pretty rocky beginning. And I remember actually there was part of it that I wrote and we were

00:11:14.560 on a Google doc. So we were just kind of like passing it back and forth and doing it as we

00:11:18.020 could. And I remember him coming in one morning after I had written this part being like, Oh,

00:11:22.480 that's kind of hard to hear. Like, I didn't know those specifics about, you know, I was basically

00:11:27.700 talking about like this, this instance where I was kind of shit talking him with my friends and

00:11:32.000 being like, fuck this, fuck him, fuck the relationship. And he was like, Oh shit. Like

00:11:35.720 i didn't actually know that early on this was happening what was going on but it was a little

00:11:40.700 i think therapeutic for me to get it out but also i i kind of feel for our relationship to be like

00:11:45.480 well let's get the real real out on the table and actually talk about it you know yeah you know

00:11:50.460 also as a writer and you know slash artist uh no art is good unless it's honest right yeah

00:11:57.220 yeah yeah it's like it's the inner conflict between okay i want this to be good and i want

00:12:03.060 it to resonate. And in order to do that, I have to show myself or be honest. That's also going

00:12:08.760 to impact Vanessa. We're going to have opinions about it. So it was a little bit complicated in

00:12:13.180 that way because all my other books I wrote by myself. So it's juicy. And the audio book is both

00:12:19.880 of us, you know, hitting the ball back and forth and talking our parts. So it feels almost like a

00:12:26.020 podcast. Yeah. But for you, I almost, that's cool. It's one or the other. It's like writing it when

00:12:31.780 you're still close to it is either going to be amazing. And that's actually going to be like the

00:12:36.280 fuel to make it amazing, or it's going to be a little too much. And I guess that's just going

00:12:40.220 to have to be something you like navigate, dip in, dip out, dip in. Yeah. Yeah. And also writing

00:12:46.000 is rewriting. So I would write it now while it's fresh, like a bad copy. I have like journal

00:12:52.360 entries. I've got journal. I wrote throughout like the entire experience. So I've got it all

00:12:57.000 written down this is the detailed version now I like writing is rewriting that's a really good

00:13:02.560 way to look at yeah it just depends on stop um it's like you know I think writing a book is like

00:13:07.140 having a baby not that I've had a baby but you you have this idea and then uh as you feed that

00:13:13.320 idea it starts growing like you're journaling you know we start writing sketching and then suddenly

00:13:18.920 you know it's too far to turn back and now you yeah yeah yeah yeah and it does take about nine

00:13:25.480 months you know it's some days are painful some days you know you're just staring at a blank

00:13:29.380 screen other days you're not flow state and then you give birth to it and then you know it comes

00:13:34.640 uh to your door and you hold it in your hand and you're like holy shit this was an idea

00:13:38.580 and now it is in my hand and then there's this kind of like letting go meaning you can't change

00:13:45.360 it once it's there yeah it's dried cement and then it's gonna go go and it's gonna do what it's

00:13:50.760 going to do you know and then of course the uh insecurities you have are people going to like it

00:13:56.040 you know all of that stuff so it's a really uh roller coaster of a ride yeah i like that yeah

00:14:02.120 there's definitely something to that when you start to write then it becomes something

00:14:06.100 that you can't really get rid of until it's done just this like heavy thing like i gotta finish it

00:14:12.380 get it out it's weird huh yeah it's very therapeutic yeah can be that's why we tell

00:14:18.240 everybody to do it yeah yeah so what's it like what's it like being with another therapist

00:14:24.040 horrible i wouldn't recommend terrible idea it's a shitty idea um i think people have this idea

00:14:32.160 that we like sit around and analyze each other all day that is not the case it's like my therapist

00:14:36.600 hat's either on or it's off and when it's off i'm probably not functioning from my higher self all

00:14:41.260 the time so it's not like we're walking around they're therapizing each other yeah you know we

00:14:46.840 have our own uh shortcomings we have our own issues um our relationship isn't easy you know

00:14:52.520 we talk about it in the book uh when we met we already had um we were we were already uh kind

00:15:00.680 of stepping on each other's toes hurting each other and so there's residue there so yeah it's

00:15:05.700 like any other relationship you know i but i do think as a therapist um i feel a more of a

00:15:13.300 responsibility to check myself because I don't want to be the do as I say not as I do guy uh so

00:15:20.520 there is a little bit of that pressure it's like being a fitness trainer and if you let yourself go

00:15:24.520 you're like oh I do this shit for a living so I you know yeah well so there's a little bit of that

00:15:29.040 um that's true but as people that's just as fucked up as anyone out there every day that's just like

00:15:34.320 yeah so um true I'm not gonna contest that okay I think I think something might people might find

00:15:42.780 helpful. Um, so what, what are the common relationship problems people go to you guys

00:15:47.960 with? Yeah. I mean, I think, I don't know the exact number, but let's just say there's like

00:15:53.540 10 chapters in the book. We tried to kind of break it down based on the categories that we

00:15:57.580 saw the most. Right. So, um, just kind of name a few differences in attachment styles, right?

00:16:03.200 It's always a big one. Kind of what happens when you get really activated, where do you go? Do you

00:16:07.320 pull back? Do you cling, right? Do you tend to be more avoidant or anxious? Um, and I'm more anxious

00:16:12.680 attached. Vanessa is more avoidant, right? So I'm holding onto her leg. She's running the other way,

00:16:17.960 that kind of thing. After, you know, a decade, we have both worked on ourselves where we're

00:16:22.740 swimming towards secure. We're not as, I'm not as anxious as I was in my twenties and she's not

00:16:27.340 as avoidant, but it's still there. Right. So that's a, that's a big one. Different love languages.

00:16:32.240 Yep. I write, I'm a writer. So Vanessa as well, but my love language is

00:16:37.680 um to tell me I'm attractive tell me I'm sexy write me poems like that stuff goes far with me

00:16:43.680 I also express myself in that way um that makes me so uncomfortable yeah yeah no yeah I feel that

00:16:50.160 Vanessa's like let me um go go get the car washed if you love me you know do the dishes like the so

00:16:56.460 she's acts of service oh okay okay yeah and and and vice versa I show it that way too and so that's

00:17:03.440 it's really interesting because we actually do kind of like pop psychology type ways of looking

00:17:08.540 at relationships. And we, we did try to bring it down to whether or not you actually subscribe to

00:17:13.640 like love languages as a thing. It's like, there is something to be said for the fact that

00:17:17.860 giving him words makes me really uncomfortable and it's really hard for me. And I need to learn

00:17:23.440 to work with my discomfort around that because it's really important that I show him love in

00:17:27.440 the way that he needs to hear love otherwise it's going to be me missing him constantly so love

00:17:34.240 languages was a was a big one for us Michaela what's your uh how do you give and receive love

00:17:39.300 what comes naturally to you hmm acts of service words of affirmation physical touch quality time

00:17:48.520 or gifts so I think it's changed right because yeah I've had a number of relationships and

00:17:56.680 I think with relationships that I was in that weren't as good I thought that I wanted something

00:18:03.260 different I was like and this were like gifts seemed like a good idea but then being in like

00:18:09.260 I'm very happy where I'm at now and so like touch it's like I'm way more interested in that than I

00:18:16.200 have been like ever before and I was like oh I thought I just wasn't into that but no I was just

00:18:21.120 with the wrong people. Yeah. And so I would say, um, probably, probably words of affirmation.

00:18:32.720 I don't know. Do you know why people, people have different, there is a theory. Um, so more

00:18:39.420 recently, so the guy who wrote the original love languages book, Gary Chapman, um, he, it wasn't

00:18:45.140 like a research study. He really just pulled this base on his experience in his own practice.

00:18:48.600 but they've started to actually do some research around this theory. And one of the things I find

00:18:54.140 really interesting is that they're starting to be able to correlate what you feel like your love

00:18:58.840 language is as in how you receive love. For most people, you can attribute it to what you did not

00:19:04.880 get when you ever. Okay. Okay, cool. I've heard that. And so that to me like blew my mind when

00:19:12.520 I heard that. Cause I was like, not only does that make sense for me, but I can see how that's

00:19:15.740 really helpful for a client to understand that. Right. Um, and also for the partner to hear that.

00:19:21.420 So like, again, if it's uncomfortable for me to give him words, knowing maybe that that comes

00:19:25.520 from this kind of childhood place, right. This childlike need for words and to be seen in that

00:19:30.700 way, it makes it almost easier for me to give it to him because, um, there's something about when

00:19:35.900 you see your partner in that light, right. And that more vulnerable kind of childlike state

00:19:39.900 that drops a lot of defenses. You don't personalize things so much. And you essentially

00:19:44.200 say like I have to get over my discomfort with this because his like inner child needs this

00:19:48.640 my mom made my bed but rarely said I love you yeah you didn't like like I get that I think it

00:19:56.380 was similar in my family like my family and I think there's there were like downsides and

00:20:01.580 benefits from that I know for my dad it was like he held me to a really high yeah like extremely

00:20:07.000 high expectations um and I also am not entirely sure if I would have accomplished as much as I

00:20:13.600 have accomplished without those high, like being pushed like that. So, um, but there wasn't a lot

00:20:19.900 of, um, and I think part of this was from being ill all the time. So there was a lot of focus on

00:20:25.000 me being ill, but there wasn't a lot of like positive positivity. And that also could have

00:20:31.180 been shadowed by like my depression. So I also didn't pick up on positive things. So I don't

00:20:36.440 even know what happened, but my experience was there wasn't a lot of positivity. And so I think

00:20:40.720 that's probably why i react well to the words of affirmation and then i probably give it out with

00:20:45.400 touch why do you think why do you think vanessa you're uncomfortable because i'm definitely in

00:20:52.700 the same kind of boat like i like it but at the beginning i really didn't like receiving it i was

00:20:57.940 like oh i didn't even know how to receive a compliment and i definitely have a difficult

00:21:01.420 time saying like good job to people which is messed up very common for those who struggle

00:21:06.520 with codependency to have a hard time accepting compliments.

00:21:09.780 Michaela, you look very beautiful.

00:21:11.640 Yeah, no, no, don't do it.

00:21:13.820 Just let's stop.

00:21:15.240 Okay, the podcast is over.

00:21:17.520 We're done.

00:21:18.980 So also have a hard time.

00:21:20.700 So some of the research that I've done

00:21:22.680 around that specific topic,

00:21:24.600 people who have a hard time hearing

00:21:27.700 and really believing compliments, right?

00:21:31.320 So we can do that just like saying thank you,

00:21:33.760 but it doesn't necessarily mean that I believe it.

00:21:35.620 a lot of it has to do with if you have a belief deep down inside that you are not whatever that

00:21:43.080 person is telling you, right? So I think you're so amazing. I think you're so intelligent. I think

00:21:48.420 you're not only just beautiful. I mean, it could be physical attributes, but it could be attributes

00:21:51.760 about you as a person. For those of us who have a deep belief that maybe we don't actually check

00:21:57.460 those boxes, it actually feels a little bit like, and this is all kind of happening unconsciously,

00:22:02.320 Right. It's this belief that we're somehow being fraudulent by accepting that compliment, which is very uncomfortable.

00:22:09.840 And so we'd rather deflect and dismiss it because we actually truly don't believe what you're saying deep down inside. Right.

00:22:16.320 So it feels like we're not being honest. It's really interesting.

00:22:19.740 I think also there's there are many layers. And I think also what you're used to in previous relationships, you know, so I've never been OK with it.

00:22:27.300 I've never been comfortable with it, I guess. Do you know what I mean? Like I've had it from other people.

00:22:31.320 and i've no no right comfortable right so for me if i'm used to um words of affirmation yeah and

00:22:37.680 then you're not a words of affirmation person there's different it feels different there's

00:22:41.200 going to be that uh wanting that from you thinking that's the norm thinking you know something's

00:22:46.320 wrong with you because i've gotten in so like the comparing that we do um you know with previous

00:22:52.000 previous relationships right um how do and i'm sure you guys both have had clients that have

00:22:58.040 asked you this and I've definitely asked Vanessa this. How do you identify when you're in a

00:23:02.400 situation when you want to say no and you shouldn't feel guilty about saying no? Because there are

00:23:08.040 situations where I think there are still situations where you kind of want to say no, but like really

00:23:14.000 you should give somebody help. How do you differentiate between when you should actually

00:23:20.500 help somebody and when you should say, no, I can't do that. I need to focus on me, which sounds

00:23:26.480 selfish, but like, it's not selfish if you're taking care of yourself, which is taking care

00:23:30.340 of your family, which is going to make the relationship better in general. Right. But

00:23:35.140 how do you tell the difference? I mean, the way that I usually talk about it, I also think it

00:23:40.420 depends on, this isn't a blanket statement for everyone. Cause I think it depends on your

00:23:44.500 struggle with boundaries and your struggle with saying no and asking for your needs to get met

00:23:49.400 kind of coming into this work. So if you're somebody who struggles to say no, if you're

00:23:53.940 somebody who struggles to get their needs met, most likely once you start working with boundaries,

00:23:59.080 it is, you can expect that it's going to feel a little bit like selfish walls. It's going to be

00:24:03.540 a lot like bam, bam, bam in your face. Right. And that's uncomfortable for everybody. And that's

00:24:08.960 not probably how it's going to stay for a lot of people. We actually need to swing to the other

00:24:14.280 side of the extreme spectrum before we figure out what kind of middle ground feels like. So if I'm

00:24:20.820 somebody who's not used to saying no, I say yes all the time. And then I just sit with all that

00:24:24.400 resentment. If I start saying no, most likely it's not going to come off very nice. I'm probably

00:24:29.780 going to say maybe more no's than I really should. Even I don't like that word. And so I need to sit

00:24:35.520 in the discomfort of what the other extreme feels like in order to go, Oh, well, that actually

00:24:39.820 doesn't feel that great either. So now I know both extremes very well in my body. And so now I can

00:24:45.040 kind of start to feel into what middle ground would, would, would feel like. Right. And on top

00:24:49.420 of that, I would say just, we have to get really familiar with, and I know we've talked about this

00:24:53.520 before you and I, this feeling of resentment, right? Because it's such a good indicator for us

00:24:58.320 that we are doing, giving more than we probably should be doing. Right. And so if we can use

00:25:05.040 resentment as a barometer for what's going on, right? Where am I saying yes, that I shouldn't,

00:25:11.940 is there a conversation that should be had then typically, I don't think it's going to be perfect

00:25:15.480 all the time. I think just by nature, we're going to do things we don't want to do sometimes we're

00:25:19.060 going to, you know, come across selfish sometimes, all that's going to happen. But I think those are

00:25:23.220 some tools to at least maybe work your way towards a more happy medium, you know, that balanced state.

00:25:29.640 That's the way that I, as somebody who has a hard time with boundaries, those are usually what I

00:25:33.780 use, right? I'm very familiar with, oh, I'm in an extreme right now. I can, I can sense it now.

00:25:39.360 And then I'll say, okay, pull it back, pull it back. But I have to be really aware of my resentment

00:25:44.320 because otherwise it's it's it's no good for the relationships do you feel that you're in the

00:25:50.000 stage of your life where um your your your nose are on the pendulum swinging in the way or have

00:25:56.060 you come kind of in the middle uh no i think i'm pretty good right now like i think i'm pretty good

00:26:02.300 and i think that's because i'm like i'm mentally healthy right now um and well it helps when

00:26:08.400 nothing bad is happening too it's pretty it's a lot easier to like be a reasonable person if you're

00:26:13.540 not in some chaotic either relationship or with health issues or you know something like that

00:26:20.540 makes a lot it's a lot easier to be like yeah everything's good right now um no I don't think

00:26:26.100 my nose are I like I'm a pretty disagreeable person so I say no a lot in work um I work

00:26:31.840 I still work with my dad quite closely and so he gets a lot of requests and so a lot of that job is

00:26:37.620 no, sorry, no, sorry. So that helped me get, get good. I think that helped me get good at saying

00:26:42.640 no quite quickly. Um, so no, I think, I think I'm doing pretty well. Or via email, the news to your

00:26:49.860 partner. Yeah. Um, in regards, so my, my partner, my husband, he's unbelievably disagreeable and

00:26:58.640 he's really emotionally stable. So if I say no to him, he just doesn't care at all, which made it

00:27:05.440 so much easier because you know I think part of what happens to people is they don't want to say

00:27:11.040 no because they don't want to hurt the other person's feelings and every time they're like

00:27:14.080 kind of saying no and the other person's freaking out they're like oh okay okay okay never mind like

00:27:18.420 this isn't a big deal for me yeah I'll just say yes for now it's fine obviously it's upsetting

00:27:23.280 you and with um with Jordan he just doesn't care at all I'm like no I don't want to do that he's

00:27:28.960 like fine and that's kind of it when you say he's disagreeable you mean he also is really good with

00:27:35.100 his nose yeah like he won't do anything he doesn't want to do so that makes it super easy yeah it's

00:27:41.140 like just very clear so because he's boundaried he respects your boundaries yeah and he's probably

00:27:48.060 helped me with it too being like oh no you don't want to say yes to that you don't want to do that

00:27:52.720 you're like yeah i don't really want to do it but like i should do it like nah you don't have to do

00:27:57.400 but like, oh, sweet.

00:27:59.660 Okay, great.

00:28:01.180 This episode is sponsored by NordVPN.

00:28:04.000 If you're at all concerned with data privacy,

00:28:06.200 NordVPN is an easy to use security measure

00:28:08.220 that gives you a base level of internet protection.

00:28:10.560 While it may seem silly to protect your data

00:28:12.600 when you aren't doing anything wrong on the internet,

00:28:15.280 even though the most innocent of us

00:28:16.900 do have data secrets online,

00:28:18.360 like sensitive passwords and financial information,

00:28:20.680 a VPN's encryption and identity protection services

00:28:23.400 are like a lock on the door,

00:28:24.800 or in other words, a basic security measure

00:28:27.120 that I use and have used for a very long time, mostly so I didn't get in trouble from downloading

00:28:32.560 movies online. I used to get those emails where they knew that you were the one downloading

00:28:36.920 movies. That freaked me out. Anyway, I've been using a VPN since then. Nord's virtual private

00:28:42.040 network protects you against anyone who wants to exploit your online movement, whether it's a lone

00:28:45.860 hacker or an overreaching government. NordVPN shields you from government agencies, websites

00:28:51.900 that collect and sell your data, and your own internet service providers. Kind of crazy that

00:28:56.440 you have to be kind of like, okay, maybe I don't want the government to have my data, but I guess

00:29:01.480 that's life now. Encrypt your online activity and hide your IP address to guarantee that your

00:29:06.860 personal information doesn't end up where you'd least want it to be. Grab your NordVPN deal today

00:29:12.040 over at nordvpn.com slash tmpp or use promo code tmpp for 61% off. That's a huge discount

00:29:21.760 off their premium plan and their free anti-malware feature. Hopefully that's what I used when I

00:29:26.420 signed up tmpp not sure if i did all with nord vpn's 30-day money-back guarantee enjoy the rest

00:29:32.480 of this episode i think every relationship whether we're talking about um intimate relationships or

00:29:37.340 friendships or with family um every relationship requires compromise and i think for me it's the

00:29:44.420 compromise of self when you can start to say no you know like if you feel that you are because

00:29:50.040 there's going to be times you do things you don't want to do of course you know it's like helping

00:29:52.920 yeah who wants to do that or picking up someone from the airport it's all part of it um don't do

00:29:57.420 that well now i say no yeah i say no before the ubers and so you know in a marriage or in any

00:30:04.000 relationship long term yeah of course you're gonna be doing things like picking up socks or doing

00:30:08.680 whatever um but if it gets to the point where you are now compromising self yeah then it's something

00:30:15.020 to really look at and and i think that for me that would be the the piece you know um not getting

00:30:20.800 your needs met because you're saying yes too much or, um, having to, to, to draw lines because

00:30:26.500 you're saying, um, yeah, yes, things that you don't want to do or whatever. So I think, I think

00:30:31.020 it's not a one-time thing. I think it's over time you sensing, okay, now I feel like I'm compromising

00:30:36.400 myself. Then it's, you know, I think for a lot of people in the beginning of that journey though,

00:30:40.780 they actually don't even know what that feels like or what that means because they've so

00:30:44.820 they've so overcorrected right into the kind of bad area of no boundaries that they have no sense

00:30:51.020 of self and so i actually think if anybody who's listening is somebody who struggles with boundaries

00:30:55.540 starting like very basic and just tapping into like what does this specific no feel like

00:31:00.800 because even picking up socks can feel so much bigger than just picking up socks well yeah if

00:31:06.980 you've been doing it for your entire life that's what i'm saying so so are you also at a place where

00:31:11.360 where your pendulum has swung, where you're very no right now, as opposed to if you're a very yes,

00:31:15.160 a yes person? I think I was, I'm, I think I'm in the state right now where I'm finding my way to

00:31:20.160 middle. I think it depends on the person, the type of no, the, I mean, right. It's all

00:31:24.040 circumstantial, but, um, with me, with intimate relationships, I think I'm edging towards middle.

00:31:30.380 So when you met me five years ago, you were more of a yes person. Yes. And then you swing to the

00:31:34.660 no person and now you're coming back. Now I'm working my way. So do you know when you'll be

00:31:38.660 in the middle with maybe in a week. Um, just so, you know, I know what's happening. It's an

00:31:45.640 injection of hope. I can't promise anything. Cause I take nose, nose crush me. You know?

00:31:51.240 Um, I, I think sometimes I, I take, so rejection for me is hard. Um, I'm not used to it. I

00:31:56.500 personalize it. I internalize it. So if Vanessa says to me, you know, no, I don't want to,

00:32:02.200 you know, whatever, have dinner because I'm busy. That's not that big of a deal,

00:32:05.340 But if it's a personal thing that she says no to, then it's a lot that that fall is harder for me.

00:32:13.060 Well, here's what's interesting about that. So what you were talking about, Michaela, with Jordan, the fact that he's so good at boundaries has helped you get better at boundaries.

00:32:19.660 Now, I would say, John, you're pretty accurate in that. Like when I do say no, I can see him deflate and take it very personally.

00:32:27.720 my usual go-to used to be, I have to fix it, right? He's feeling uncomfortable or hurt or

00:32:36.800 upset by the fact that I said no about something. So now it's my job to fix it and make him feel

00:32:41.880 better, which then just kicks me back into the kind of resentment cycle, caretaker cycle all

00:32:46.320 over again. So the mirror that I get from somebody like that in a relationship is actually just the

00:32:52.260 ability to go, I don't need to fix this. It's okay that he's upset. He's allowed to be upset

00:32:58.200 and I can just let him be upset. That's okay. That's not my job to fix it for him. Right?

00:33:03.120 So there's, there's like two different kinds of lessons. I feel like you're going to get from

00:33:07.260 somebody more like your husband versus somebody who, who does kind of personalize it. And because

00:33:11.920 I am a fixer, it used to be my go-to to try to soothe that for you versus being like, it's okay.

00:33:18.000 he's allowed you're allowed to be upset how do you know um and of course someone shouldn't go

00:33:23.240 fix something because every relationship is 50 50 but how do you know where um it requires

00:33:30.440 attention right so a lot of times the nose um you know it might be a sensitive a sensitive area that

00:33:37.440 requires a conversation right so maybe it's not even about what the person is saying no about but

00:33:42.060 something that's running deeper so yes there if you're if you have a story where you're usually

00:33:47.020 the fixer upper or the fixer you grew up fast or taking care of people at a young age all that

00:33:52.540 sure that's you know that's a that's a pattern that can be unhealthy and damaging um but at the

00:33:57.820 same time when you're in a relationship being aware of is this something that i don't want to

00:34:02.160 do because i'm so used to fixing it or is it something that we need to talk about because

00:34:07.120 it requires fixing on on both parties you know yeah that's interesting right now i would say

00:34:14.820 I would say that it's the, in this specific example. So if we're just using you and I as an

00:34:20.980 example, in this specific instance, if I'm usually the fixer and I'm working on, it's not my

00:34:26.540 responsibility to fix this for you, right. Or self-soothe you or whatever. In this instance,

00:34:31.460 I would say it would be your responsibility to come to me and say, can we talk about this? No.

00:34:37.700 And why it's bothering me? Not my responsibility to say, Hey, I sense that you're upset by my no.

00:34:43.300 sure so not chasing after me yes right yeah um but also not avoiding the conversation right

00:34:49.540 i think i like that yeah yeah i like that relationships are hard it's very abstract

00:34:54.120 yeah yeah no it is super abstract i'd say i think with like my experience with jordan

00:34:59.520 if we get into an argument i would say generally if he's upset because of like who he is he doesn't

00:35:07.180 get upset if he's upset then i'm like okay we need to talk about this so it's i think i've i

00:35:13.840 think at the moment anyway i have it pretty easy because it's like there isn't it's pretty cut and

00:35:18.140 dry and then it's like oh if there's a problem it's probably something that needs to be addressed

00:35:22.740 but i don't know it's new we've known each other for a year are you the one that's bringing it to

00:35:28.660 him and saying like there's a problem we should talk about or does he come to you or both

00:35:32.780 no i uh i think i think probably both i still have a tendency to like if i'm in an argument

00:35:40.680 and i can feel myself getting angry i think because i had like years and years of of arguing

00:35:48.200 that i just like i'm just i'm probably avoidant you mentioned something about being avoidant

00:35:53.580 like uh where this is getting into a fight nah like and then i i like i move into like

00:35:58.940 I'm not even I don't even get upset first. I don't even know if I get angry. Right. I like I just go numb like something like walls go up and I'm like, no, I'm not even doing this at all.

00:36:13.380 But that I seem to get over that quite quickly. So I'm like, oh, I'm not feeling anything. Am I feeling angry? Actually, you taught me this. You're like, yeah, I was like, what are your emotions?

00:36:22.260 you said something that was like I don't know like angry sad you were kind of like yeah like

00:36:26.180 a three-year-old like are there any background to those emotions yeah I was like well I'm not sure

00:36:31.780 so then yeah I'm like an emotion wheel like what are you actually feeling so I probably still use

00:36:36.620 that where I'm like I'm feeling numb I'm feeling angry I'm like angry is covering something though

00:36:41.240 like angry isn't isn't the emotion and I get angry instead of feeling sad all the time like I don't

00:36:47.860 want to feel sad and hurt and like weak i'll feel angry it's like a positive emotion is

00:36:53.360 it's much more pleasant than feeling sad and crushed or so we've been taught that it's a

00:36:58.120 positive emotion yes or so we've been taught society has told us that anger is safe and

00:37:05.220 healthy because sadness is weak right because that's what we've been told or it feels weak

00:37:10.760 though it's it's hurts it hurts and anger doesn't like hurt like that i mean anger is also a very

00:37:18.380 motivating emotion yeah so it can be something that moves you into action and so feeling like

00:37:24.460 you have action can feel much more empowering than feeling like oh i'm just sitting in sadness

00:37:28.940 which doesn't which feels the opposite right it feels like almost disempowering yeah i don't know

00:37:33.200 society um labels anger as um better yeah usually people think anger is a bad thing and sometimes

00:37:41.600 anger can be healthy if you don't allow yourself to be angry you know as long as you're not yeah

00:37:47.940 destructive right healthy rage yeah yeah yeah so anger i think uh it can be a uh and i'm not just

00:37:54.420 saying this because i call myself the angry therapist but it isn't always bad anger can be

00:37:59.680 a good thing. If anger is something that you default to, then yes, that can be bad. And you

00:38:06.320 have a temper and you, you know, you're short to, to, you know, if you're like rageful, but

00:38:10.860 or you hide behind it, like Nkila was saying, right. Like I just go there and I stay there

00:38:14.580 because that feels better, you know, as long as it's not like the hiding behind, but if you don't

00:38:19.020 allow yourself to be angry and you hold things down and that's your pattern, then being, yeah,

00:38:23.560 it'd be the prescription. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Do you think that's more the case with

00:38:29.380 men or do you think that's across the board i can say like men yeah there are a lot of angry men i

00:38:35.680 mean i was one of them i mean in my 20s i was angry and reactive um because i think for men

00:38:41.120 we don't have a lot of you know like you're saying the the the three-year-old uh for men we we have

00:38:47.240 the primary colors of feelings it's like we're angry yeah we're sad we're horny you know we're

00:38:52.360 very kind of like a quote-unquote basic in that way but why though because that's not how you're

00:38:56.040 born no because we don't i shouldn't say we because i don't want to uh generalize this but

00:39:00.780 but um i think men don't drop into their body and allow themselves to feel because we're fixed

00:39:10.520 or up we fix things or we're logical or we don't allow ourselves to feel so uh anger it becomes a

00:39:15.980 common um default but that i would say you are you're raised that way right so the research

00:39:22.820 shows that the brains of males and females are not actually that different at all, especially

00:39:28.520 the emotional areas, right? Like the amygdala and all the places in the brain that we feel emotion,

00:39:32.240 that's a socialized thing. So men are socialized to be able to tap into anger as like, that's the

00:39:38.580 safe emotion. So men aren't labeled bad or wrong for showing anger and aggression and all the good

00:39:44.700 things that come from that, right? Oh, he's so, he's such a go-getter. He's such a, you know,

00:39:48.740 he's successful at work because he channels that kind of anger and rage obviously with women it's

00:39:53.040 the opposite right nobody wants to be the angry the bitch or all the words that we have for women

00:39:57.120 when they're angry we don't have those same kind of words for men when they're angry right so

00:40:01.400 i think i think there's really interesting turn right now where i think men and women both are

00:40:06.480 coming to the table saying how can we feel more than just what we've been told we're allowed to

00:40:11.140 feel right and it's creating a really i think really interesting dialogue especially like in

00:40:15.020 heteronormative couples where we get to say like, let's rewrite our rules, you know, let's get out

00:40:19.960 of these boxes that we've kind of been put in. Yeah. I think, I think me growing up, I definitely

00:40:25.640 probably ended up with more of a male and I've taken personality tests and I am fairly disagreeable,

00:40:32.480 but I think I ended, I ended up with more of a like masculine personality and it's been helpful

00:40:37.780 for me to try and work on the more feminine part that I just didn't like that I viewed in a negative

00:40:43.440 way. Right. And I do think that was mainly from being chronically ill. And I used a lot of anger

00:40:48.800 to channel my way through that. Cause it was like, if I just felt like I was like, like death all the

00:40:53.580 time and there's no fix, then it's like, okay, well you just have to like be strong and get

00:40:58.900 through it. There's no like feeling that if you're just going to be chronically ill forever.

00:41:02.580 But then since I got healthy, I think it's been difficult for me to be like,

00:41:06.440 to feel things more because it is kind of uncomfortable. Like just being angry when

00:41:12.940 things are hard is easier and it was for me anyway but I think it's been almost like a relief

00:41:20.520 to try and be like oh I can be vulnerable without getting hurt like if you're in a situation where

00:41:26.940 you're going to be vulnerable and then someone's just going to jab you there's no point in being

00:41:31.100 vulnerable right like you have to you gotta you gotta this is the thing too that I think a lot

00:41:36.900 of like the disservice on this like pop psychology social media shit that we're on right now is that

00:41:41.840 we're all about, let's learn to feel our feelings, but there has to be a balance of also building the

00:41:46.760 muscle of discerning and discernment. Right. And they have to go hand in hand. Otherwise, to your

00:41:52.240 point, you're going to be getting jabbed left and right. So it's not to just say, Hey, let's rip up

00:41:56.080 the facade and just feel all the feels because that can be crushing if it's not done smart.

00:42:00.720 Right. I wonder if an abundance of masculine energy. Um, so Vanessa has a lot of that, um,

00:42:07.880 stems from your upbringing being in a state of survival and fight or flight right so feminine

00:42:16.580 energy you know the nurturing side soft receptive it's hard to tap into that if you're living life

00:42:24.320 thinking the sky is falling and you have bills to pay and you have responsibility yeah grow up fast

00:42:29.620 so yeah it almost um forces you to produce masculine energy as a as a way of to survive

00:42:36.600 totally you know and so uh then you become an adult you get into relationships and you realize

00:42:42.380 this and you want to now tap in more into your feminine energy um because that's what's needed

00:42:47.440 right and for both men and women right yeah for both men and women right and um and that's that's

00:42:52.120 really hard to do because um because of why we're not used to like how do you do that it's like

00:42:55.780 brushing your teeth with the opposite hand how do you go how do you where you know where i don't

00:43:00.240 know what that means right so i even begin yeah but you know what we're talking about is one of

00:43:06.460 the things that vanessa and i you know um are dancing with and stepping on toes and we talk

00:43:12.680 about this in the book too yeah it's like you know we jokingly will talk about how when we first met

00:43:17.720 our biggest difference was that i'm from new york and he's from la because culturally it's like a

00:43:22.540 major difference yeah even in that right i have more of the masculine energy the northeast of

00:43:28.380 America it just is that that very blue collar right like there's a there's an energy about it

00:43:34.400 it's a lot of kind of rough and tumble pull yourself up by your bootstrap it's cold it's gray

00:43:40.080 you know and the west coast is not like that like smoothies and sunshine exactly and so when we first

00:43:46.020 met I was like oh no this is air in my face I have a funny story when we first met we were kind of

00:43:50.880 like jokingly playing around and I was laughing and I went oh whatever fuck you and he looked at

00:43:55.460 me like what he goes can we not say fuck you to each other and i was like whatever that's a term

00:44:02.000 of endearment in new york you know and it's just so funny to see the different in the difference

00:44:06.360 and even just how upbringing oh that's interesting i had the same experience i was not used to that

00:44:12.840 i'm not being used to uh my partner saying fuck you yeah well no and i i honestly think that's

00:44:19.320 probably more normal i had the same experience with jordan and he was like you can't say that

00:44:24.200 and i was like yeah i guess that's kind of mean but like see i was like everybody does it everybody

00:44:31.080 does it and maybe that's more of a east coast thing i'm from toronto so kind of same kind of

00:44:37.400 area yeah and he's from california the californians yeah i would put you more in like my energetic

00:44:44.900 sphere because toronto is only like an hour and a half from where i grew up in upstate new york so

00:44:48.760 or two hours so it still has that same vibe cold winters gray harsh most people are blue collar I

00:44:55.020 mean you know at one point and it's just different it's a different energy yeah you like elbow people

00:45:00.420 walking down the street no you don't smile and say hi it's like yeah yeah yeah when we first met

00:45:06.680 and I'm saying this because it's in the book and we've also said it in many podcasts um when we

00:45:10.760 first met and we're dating because I'm a little bit kinky I uh we're we're getting intimate I

00:45:15.740 said hey can i can i slap you and she said if you slap me i'm gonna slap you back i was like oh

00:45:19.580 that's not gonna work it's very serious yeah so lots of uh lots of dominance so that in itself

00:45:26.960 shows you the difference in energy i was like i mean yeah but i'm gonna slap you back and i was

00:45:31.740 not trying to be kinky i was that doesn't that doesn't work with the role playing it's not hot

00:45:35.100 like oh that's funny yeah that's interesting i think i think do you think how much of that is

00:45:43.360 how you're brought up though. And how much of it is also how you're born. I don't think I would be

00:45:49.020 as disagree. Like I can, now that I can say, I used to be able to say no, here's the thing. I

00:45:53.600 used to be able to say no. Cause it was part of my job. And I was like, if somebody needed to be

00:45:57.020 fired or let go, I'd be like, I can do it. I can do it. So it wasn't like to everyone. It was just

00:46:01.380 to certain people where it's like, can't say no to them. It was like isolated. Sure. But I was

00:46:07.440 like that at work too. I mean, I was in before I became a therapist, I was in advertising for 10

00:46:11.880 years, climbing the ladder. I was a director of like a 20 person team at some point. And

00:46:18.720 I was always really good at holding firm and holding. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, no,

00:46:23.020 people used to call me bad cop. Like I was bad cop. My partner was good cop because I was the

00:46:27.060 one that was like, Nope, Nope, not doing that. You know? Um, but when it, when it came to intimate

00:46:31.860 or vulnerable relationships, that was where suddenly it, it changed. And I, I didn't have

00:46:36.800 the same kind of, I don't know, backbone, if you will, when it came to saying no.

00:46:41.760 So I think, yeah, is that partly, I mean, I don't know your experience, but I feel like,

00:46:46.820 is that partly from not being in relationships that made you feel safe?

00:46:50.660 Partly.

00:46:51.200 Because it's a lot easier to be like, I'll do what you want.

00:46:54.180 If it's like, I don't know what's going to happen if I say no, exactly.

00:46:57.700 Exactly.

00:46:58.100 It activates that abandonment fear, you know, that wounding that like, if I say no, you're

00:47:03.380 going to abandon me.

00:47:04.180 And maybe not necessarily physically, but maybe emotionally.

00:47:06.800 Like, you're going to be upset with me.

00:47:08.200 You're going to cold shoulder me.

00:47:09.440 A lot of us that grew up in families

00:47:11.440 where either the parents cold-shouldered you

00:47:13.460 when they were mad at you or they yelled at you,

00:47:16.140 but they didn't necessarily explain,

00:47:17.700 like had real emotionally connecting conversations.

00:47:20.660 We as children, we embody that as rejection, right?

00:47:23.460 That's like abandonment of self.

00:47:24.800 And so I'm going to do anything I can to make sure

00:47:27.900 that I don't feel that feeling or that fear of abandonment.

00:47:30.660 And if that means saying yes, when I want to say no,

00:47:32.960 then that's something I learned to do.

00:47:34.560 i think it's also um not practicing it right it definitely is like for sure yeah yeah so how could

00:47:43.000 people so say somebody's listening to the podcast thinking okay i'm resentful like um welcome to

00:47:49.940 yeah yeah resentful so like just well maybe let's actually let's start even a step back

00:47:57.100 how would you guys describe what being resentful feels like so people can identify what resentment

00:48:03.280 it feels like. I have the best, um, for anybody who knows Glennon Doyle, she was able to articulate

00:48:10.200 this in a way that I love. And I now use all the time. She says that for her, when she knows she's,

00:48:15.360 she's feeling resentful is when she has the thought must be nice. I love that. That's exactly

00:48:22.120 what it is. The second you're looking at somebody thinking must be nice. You know, that there's

00:48:26.860 resentment there. Right. And a lot of us know that feeling of must be nice. Um, you know,

00:48:31.860 whether it's in her instance, it was like her partner, Abby kind of relaxing and like hanging

00:48:37.120 out and watching soccer and, and relaxing for a day's work. And she would look at her and think

00:48:41.120 must be nice, but why was she doing that? Right? Like no, nobody was telling her that she wasn't

00:48:45.660 also allowed to sit down and relax. It's just that her upbringing, her wiring, all her codependent

00:48:51.200 bullshit was telling her she had to be constantly moving, constantly productive, constantly cleaning,

00:48:55.820 constantly whatever. And so she started realizing when she would do the must be nice, that there

00:48:59.960 was resentment there which needed a conversation so that's been really helpful for me and also you

00:49:05.840 know if you're resentful uh you have to explore how much of it is warranted yeah and then how

00:49:11.400 much of it is you yours to own yours to own you never even expressed anything you're just harboring

00:49:17.540 you know this kind of anger um so resentful i think is also um worth exploring it's not black

00:49:24.080 and white you know it doesn't automatically mean that someone did something wrong yep usually

00:49:28.900 resentment, resentment is yours to own. I mean, usually resentment is yours first and foremost

00:49:33.520 to explore. And then you have the conversation if you feel like you, well, the ownership piece

00:49:38.320 is you waited too long. It's almost like, you know, if the peaches went bad or the bananas are

00:49:44.760 now, you know, black, you waited too long. And so like resent that that's probably a horrible,

00:49:49.300 no, I kind of like that actually. Good, good. We'll go with that. I'm brilliant.

00:49:52.420 fruit so uh if you're already feeling resentful i think it's a great sign that uh your responsibility

00:50:01.580 was to talk about it express it do something about it before it's almost like it's too late

00:50:08.960 it's gone it's gone bad it's um now sour yeah but some of us don't know until it's gone sour

00:50:15.200 that it's gone sour because that's what we're used to because we don't exercise hey listen

00:50:19.420 what you did hurt me or what you I feel rejected or or you know or here's a need that I have or

00:50:25.540 whatever it is right yeah or I pick up the socks too much or you know whatever

00:50:28.780 so how do people who are walking around in a cloud of resentment how do they start to

00:50:37.940 put up boundaries to try and get rid of that what's like the first step especially if you've

00:50:43.680 been stuck in it for like five years yeah oh no I've now I haven't mentioned that I don't like

00:50:48.100 this for five years. Like, what do I do? Hey, boundaries. I think it's about bridges. I think

00:50:53.740 if you feel that you have anger and resentment, it's a sign that you need to do something about

00:50:58.560 it. And, uh, maybe starting with the therapist or a coach, but ultimately talking to your partner

00:51:04.280 and expressing the anger, you know, I have actually a real life example. Um, my ex-wife

00:51:11.180 who uh we like after 10 years actually sat down at a cream barbecue uh you know just had an amicable

00:51:18.620 chat and we hugged it's the kind of hug where it's like i'll probably never see you again but

00:51:22.780 have a great life right it was that kind of like hug understanding i thought all was forgiven

00:51:27.040 and then months later i got an email and holy about oh my god i mean she some of the stuff she

00:51:34.360 said i didn't it just blew me away which meant she was still carrying resentment and anger and

00:51:40.400 I was thinking to myself how come you didn't tell me even at the Korean barbecue that you were still

00:51:44.280 mad about things you're still mad you know and so um yeah the banana went black I feel like you

00:51:51.440 you have a responsibility to start telling the people that you're resentful toward why and you

00:51:59.300 know and also not just blaming because that's not going to work right you don't just say you know

00:52:02.940 you did this and now you did this and yeah I've been picking up your socks for 10 years and you're

00:52:06.700 I mean, maybe, maybe you do that to your therapist, right. To get that. And then you go to your husband, dad, friend, whatever, say, Hey, listen, I feel, here's what I feel. And, and, uh, if they're able to hold that space for you, which is the big key. Yeah. And then many are not right. Many will blame you back. Uh, but if they are able to hold that space for you, and that's why it's important to come in, not hot or defensive, right. You can come at your therapist like that and then come in more of a, uh, Hey, listen, I care about

00:52:36.640 this relationship and this is why i'm telling you um i still feel some resentment for this or what

00:52:41.480 happened and if you're able to hold that then the resentment starts to dissolve if they're not able

00:52:47.480 to hold it the resentment compounds either compounds or it's like fuck i shouldn't have

00:52:52.520 even said this look they're not you know they're not even listening to me so um you do have to

00:52:56.760 trust your judgment as well so it's complicated yeah this is the discernment piece and also too

00:53:02.560 I mean, so many times in therapy, I'll say to people, but you're not saying it to them

00:53:08.160 for a potential outcome because it's not, you're actually not expressing your resentment.

00:53:13.920 I get the idea that you are, but you're not actually expressing the resentment for any

00:53:18.120 specific outcome other than practicing, communicating what's going on for you.

00:53:22.760 How the other person responds is actually not, that has something to do with you.

00:53:27.040 It doesn't concern, that's on them.

00:53:28.260 That's their thing based on their stuff, based on their history, their lack of communication

00:53:32.500 skills, whatever it is, but how they communicate back to you is just information for you about

00:53:38.480 their capacity and their willingness to meet you.

00:53:41.720 And then you get to do with that information what you will, but you, it's not your responsibility

00:53:46.420 and it's not your, um, yeah, it's not your responsibility.

00:53:49.840 It's like you, your responsibility is to you, right?

00:53:53.260 Not to them in a way.

00:53:54.560 but probably don't start with saying hey here are the 50 things i've written down that i'm

00:54:00.980 resentful about that um you have to fix yeah yeah you're welcome yeah one of the things we

00:54:07.840 talk about in the book is um coming with your partner not at or around and so uh something

00:54:13.560 that i carry yeah will help me so saying here are the 50 things you did wrong is coming at someone

00:54:19.040 right? That's a point of finger. Saying nothing is going around someone, right? So to do life

00:54:25.360 with someone means, Hey, listen, here's how I feel. I'm not blaming you. I'm saying this because

00:54:30.860 I want our relationship to grow. I'm showing myself. Can you hold that for me? And my part

00:54:35.620 to own in this, if we're saying socks, for example, my part to own in this is that I should

00:54:40.160 have told you five years ago that picking up your dirty socks every day makes me feel like you don't

00:54:44.560 value my time. I own that. I should have said that five years ago. And that's my part to own.

00:54:50.000 And most of the time, if you come in with a component that is yours, that's also a really

00:54:54.380 good way to kind of take that finger pointing out of it. Because you're not putting all the

00:54:58.020 blame on them. You do have a responsibility to own something in that. Owning is hard. It's very

00:55:02.720 adulting, you know, and blaming is easy. Our book is all about breaking the blame cycle.

00:55:09.140 and in order to break the blame cycle two people have to own whatever is their part usually one

00:55:16.100 person does and the other person doesn't yeah and then you just argue yeah yeah i think

00:55:22.720 potentially coming in with a solution to saying hey i should have said something five years ago

00:55:29.660 and instead i've just been getting angry and angrier uh but i really don't like cleaning up

00:55:33.700 after you right um so instead like going forward could you either clean up after yourself or maybe

00:55:42.260 we can scrounge around some money and get a housekeeper otherwise i'm going to be resentful

00:55:47.260 forever maybe giving some ways out when you come with resentment problems too being like i understand

00:55:53.000 that i contributed to this it has to stop here's some maybe solutions are you open to any of the

00:55:56.940 solutions and if the other person's like oh you're mad at me and they're not open to any of the

00:56:02.340 solutions then maybe there's more to work on yeah it's also telling of the relationship

00:56:09.200 one's capacity is this relationship fixable you know um one's response is telling it's like a

00:56:18.160 like a dipstick like you're checking oil you know information and if what you're getting

00:56:21.900 always defensiveness not not once because we could always we could all be defensive but

00:56:26.420 if that's always when you come at someone they're always defensive i don't know if it's going to

00:56:30.960 work you know because it's not sustainable at least yeah you know um family members are family

00:56:39.540 so it's like it's different yeah then you just you know don't come home for thanksgiving or

00:56:43.200 whatever but send them the voicemail but um for intimate partners because you know you're living

00:56:47.580 with them or if you are day-to-day they're in your life they're a huge part of your life

00:56:52.060 if people are defensive it's just a matter of time and maybe years but it's a matter of time

00:56:57.160 where the legs fall out you know there's a lot of resentment yeah yeah yeah I think that's good

00:57:03.220 to hear because I know uh the way I was brought up with my dad was really like um I mean what half

00:57:09.620 of half of marriages end in divorce and it was very like relationships are going to be tough but

00:57:15.280 you have to sort out your problems and make it work but I think it's important and I mean I have

00:57:19.940 a bias here because I'm divorced but I think it's important for people to hear sometimes it doesn't

00:57:24.540 work and it's not you and you can't negotiate your way out of it and i think one of those signs

00:57:29.360 the ones that you just mentioned with which was defensiveness if you're saying hey here's a

00:57:34.380 problem here are some solutions the other person's like oh you're mad at me like it's like well if

00:57:39.920 you can't you how do you negotiate your way out of that if it's repeated well i mean i think it's

00:57:45.700 like we were saying what this idea of it being information it's like i think when you yeah yeah

00:57:49.700 It's like people need to understand. And this is, I'm hoping there's a bit of a cultural shift

00:57:54.540 happening in this idea. John, you said this before, like sometimes when people get divorced,

00:57:58.160 rather than saying like, oh, I'm so sorry, or I'm sorry that happened. It's like,

00:58:01.480 sometimes we should be giving that person like a trophy, right? A chest bump. Yeah. Like we need

00:58:06.360 to celebrate sometimes when people wake up and say, we're not in a good relationship and we're

00:58:10.760 miserable and we need to leave this relationship. It doesn't matter who's quote unquote fault it is,

00:58:14.760 right? Sometimes it's nobody's fault. Sometimes it just expires and you're different now than

00:58:18.240 you were then and that's okay right some relationships aren't fixable you know if two

00:58:22.720 people have drifted so far that it's no longer about therapy but feelings have changed and

00:58:28.060 they're seeing their partner as just like i i have love for this person but i'm not and i'm just not

00:58:33.300 attracted to this person anymore um i don't know if that's fixable i don't know if you know maybe

00:58:38.520 some cases it is but some relationships just run out it's a shift to looking at relationships like

00:58:44.680 like time is not the indicator of a successful relationship right but like the depth and the

00:58:51.080 safety and the security and the love is actually the the indicator and I think I'm hoping I think

00:58:56.740 our generation's a little bit different in that I think we do look at things slightly different than

00:59:00.960 like past generations grandparents that are like we've been married for 70 years and I'm like you've

00:59:05.320 been sleeping in separate bedrooms for those years you know I mean no offense separate bedrooms I

00:59:09.700 would actually love that but I'm just saying you know that's that's the way we'll look at it so

00:59:13.980 that hurts my feelings but i really like my sleep no no i get that oh my gosh especially since having

00:59:21.340 a kid i don't know your experience since having a kid it's like don't move the blanket don't you're

00:59:25.260 moving you're moving the blankets i can feel the blankets move and now i'm awake yep now i'm awake

00:59:29.820 and now she's awake and now now i'm awake if vanessa had her way we'd be in two different

00:59:35.180 houses we'd be in two different houses on the same block maybe i'm not gonna lie i would kind

00:59:41.020 kind of love that that's the avoided in me I'm like oh god I would love that yeah yeah I get I

00:59:48.520 get the I get the bed thing I've briefly considered I think it somewhere in Europe maybe it's

00:59:53.420 Switzerland I can't remember they have two twin beds and you push them together and that's just

00:59:58.280 the bed and I was like that would just solve the it's not not wanting to be close it's the like

01:00:03.100 I wake up and then I'm awake and then my like I'm tired yeah and I think that's like exacerbated

01:00:08.760 from like some sort of brain change having a kid it's like just wrecked my destroyed my sleep

01:00:14.360 like you said i mean somebody breathes in the room i know like i think that's like a biological mom

01:00:19.680 thing for sure and that's awful he's like snoring away and i'm like you know i heard something i'm

01:00:26.180 just like laying there awake for hours and i can't get back to sleep so i i use like blast

01:00:31.020 white noise like blast it that helps a little bit she hates so i do the same thing he's like

01:00:37.840 oh, I can't sleep. And I'm like, well, I need that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, lucky Jordan likes the

01:00:43.340 white noise. That's good. I have like white noise and like a mask that goes around my eyes and my,

01:00:47.920 like my ears and just everything. So you need to be in one of those chambers,

01:00:51.120 like where you're floating. Yeah. There's no, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That would be great

01:00:56.800 with white noise. Okay. I want to ask a little bit more about your book. I had a list of questions,

01:01:03.340 but I didn't really get to any of them but I think we covered we covered kind of yeah yeah I

01:01:08.440 think we covered a lot about the I think one thing that I really was missing was when do you say no

01:01:14.080 and when when are and I grew up with people who were pretty I think pretty aware of the need to

01:01:23.020 negotiate like you can't be resentful I've known that since I was like tiny I was like you can't

01:01:29.040 be resentful this is what resentment feels like don't do things that make you resentful but then

01:01:34.360 there was that on one hand and also like but you have to do these things I was like well now I don't

01:01:40.040 know what to do um but you know hopefully people who listen to this podcast will have learned

01:01:45.280 something hopefully hopefully um what was the most I can't imagine writing a book with somebody else

01:01:55.960 after because I've spent I've spent way too long writing the book that I will eventually publish

01:02:01.360 like I've been writing off and on for 12 years and I can't imagine having and it's like my baby

01:02:07.020 like you said like um how did you guys like negotiate what was important to put into the book

01:02:14.720 was that hard yeah I think um you have to

01:02:19.880 you're writing uh through the lens of what you're creating is bigger than you i mean it's like

01:02:27.140 having a child again right so um i have to let go of the fact that i own this book that it's my

01:02:32.380 and vanessa does as well so we're creating something um that is a collaboration right so

01:02:39.120 um you know even if you're in a band right if you guys don't agree the music's not going to be good

01:02:44.800 So, yeah, it's a lot of, OK, there are there are some, you know, pick your battles.

01:02:50.200 And if you feel strongly about something that you definitely express it again, so you don't have resentment.

01:02:54.800 But at the end of the day, this thing that you're creating is bigger than you.

01:02:58.100 So when you are co-authoring with someone, you have to respect the other person as an artist as well.

01:03:03.340 I think the good thing about this kind of book, you know, this nonfiction kind of self-betterment realm, that was it's probably easier than, say, if we co-wrote like a fiction book.

01:03:14.240 that story is that yeah it's pretty easy for us to say here's the again to use kind of the number

01:03:19.040 arbitrary number 10 here's the 10 things that we know for certain are couples that we work with

01:03:24.360 struggle with and we also know for certain we struggle with right and there were some I think

01:03:28.340 they probably got chopped onto the cutting room floor whatever they say you know or um things that

01:03:33.180 maybe he brought that I hadn't thought of but for the most part the bulk of them it was like

01:03:37.380 and I hate to say this to anybody listening but like you're not that unique like we all struggle

01:03:42.500 with this shit. You know what I mean? Um, I find solace than that. Somebody else might not,

01:03:46.860 but it really was that simple. Like here's the shit we all struggle with. And it's really

01:03:50.760 important that we touch on all of these. And then it really just became like, how,

01:03:54.660 then how do we touch on them? You know, whose part is what and who gets to go into it more,

01:03:58.620 but that part felt fluid because it really was like, Oh, you know, we have a whole chapter on

01:04:03.020 codependency. Well, codependency is my jam. So it felt appropriate that that was kind of like

01:04:07.360 the angle that I went through, you know? Um, so that part played itself out, but yeah,

01:04:11.000 it felt very much like this is the every man's guide to couples because it's what we see all

01:04:16.020 the time yeah and your book's very different because it's a memoir it's a very personal

01:04:19.060 so you're not going to be able to write that with someone else like someone's not going to

01:04:22.360 be able to tell your story except you right plus that would feel so like um like somebody's peeking

01:04:27.460 behind a curtain right i almost feel like that would feel invasive if somebody was in your google

01:04:31.160 doc while you were writing your memoir yeah this part this part isn't isn't exactly how it should

01:04:36.380 go. I'm going to just edit that part a little bit. Um, okay. Okay. Well, I'm going to link your

01:04:42.980 book below, but for social media, if people want to follow you guys online or find your book or

01:04:49.520 find out what you guys are doing, uh, where can they go? Uh, mine's just at being your therapist

01:04:54.640 across everything, across everything. He's easy. I'm not, I'm kind of all over the place,

01:04:59.080 but mostly Instagram and Tik TOK. So, uh, Instagram I'm at Vanessa S Bennett and then

01:05:05.400 tiktok i'm at the coda yoda uh and then yeah and then you can get the book wide actually

01:05:10.940 september 6th is when it launches so we're excited wow congratulations

01:05:15.300 well for anyone listening i would recommend reading this book um vanessa was very helpful

01:05:21.200 to me and i think it's good for people even if you've grown up in a stable family i think it's

01:05:25.640 probably a good read to make sure especially if you're in a relationship and you're like this

01:05:29.340 could be better there are things you're missing like i think there are probably ways to either

01:05:33.820 address that or to figure out if you actually shouldn't be in that relationship. Yeah. You

01:05:39.120 shouldn't just be like, hang out, hanging out, being unhappy. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the

01:05:45.320 point of this too, is it's like, we couldn't cram this every detailed thing into one book. So this

01:05:50.940 idea of it being kind of like the every man's guide, it's not to minimize it, but it's to say

01:05:54.420 you'll get a good read. And then if there's something that jumps out at you, then you'll

01:05:57.920 have enough information to say, Oh, I need to dig into that specific topic deeper. Right. Like

01:06:02.260 whether it's the over-functioning, under-functioning dance, whether it's, you know, all these other

01:06:06.700 things, desire types, we talk about different desire types and then you can say, oh, that's

01:06:10.820 cool. Yeah. I said, research that more, you know, and then it kind of gives you that, that like

01:06:14.380 launch pad. Know what your partner's into before you ask if you could slap them. That's a tip at

01:06:21.800 the end. That's great. Okay. Well, thank you both very much for coming on. It was nice to see you

01:06:27.480 again. Yeah, you too. I appreciate you. Thank you for having us. And thank you for creating

01:06:32.420 a dialogue about relationships. I think it's much needed in the world. Agreed.

The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - September 20, 2022

161 Couples Therapist Advice on Break Ups, Love Languages, and Conflict ｜ Vanessa Bennett & John Kim 161

Episode Stats

Transcript