00:04:09.760And as a result, my dad proposed me for membership in that life.
00:04:14.280I became a maid member of that life, took the oath in 1975, and spent about 20 years in that life,
00:04:21.860first as a soldier, which is the initial rank when you come into the life, and then as a captain,
00:04:27.020capital regime. I was a major target of law enforcement myself, mainly because of my dad's
00:04:34.620name. It started that way, but I was arrested 18 times. I was indicted seven times. I had two
00:04:40.060federal racketeering cases, one brought on by Rudy Giuliani. Went to trial five times, was acquitted
00:04:46.760in five cases, but then took a 10-year plea for a 10-year prison sentence and a $15 million
00:04:54.760restitution. And just before that, I met a young woman who's now my wife of 37 years.
00:05:02.620And basically, it was because of meeting her and her faith that caused me to try to walk away from
00:05:08.680that life. And that's what I did back in 1995 after serving my prison sentence. And since then,
00:05:16.140I've been a speaker, an author, been involved in the film industry to some degree. And here I am
00:05:24.260some 20 odd years being alive and free and, you know, living a fairly normal life. So that's that's
00:05:31.380the basic thumbnail sketch. Okay, this is great. You you've had such an interesting life. Is it
00:05:38.400Have you had the experience going through these experiences in your life that it's surreal?
00:05:44.640Or because you grew up in this, did it kind of feel normal?
00:05:48.100Yeah, early on it was normal for me because I don't remember anything but my dad in that way
00:05:56.220from the time I was, you know, able to start to realize what life was all about.
00:06:02.060So, you know, growing up like that was normal.
00:06:04.500growing up for me, hating, hating the police, hating law enforcement, hating the government
00:06:09.220was normal because I viewed them as enemies to my family. You know, I always heard chatter in
00:06:16.520the house and how bad, you know, law enforcement could be. I loved and idolized my dad. So anybody
00:06:22.820that was, you know, trying to hurt him became my enemy. So it was normal, you know, growing up. I
00:06:29.100mean I looked at it that way okay okay that makes sense um what about stress wise I mean being
00:06:36.240indicted all the time and having cops there or after you constantly were you guys in a kind of
00:06:41.540hyper stressed position you know Mikhail it's funny you ask that I went to uh about a year ago
00:06:48.920I went to the doctor and uh I had a little bit of a condition that on your face where you start to
00:06:54.320lose your beard just a little bit in spots. And they say, normally it's caused by stress. So the
00:06:59.860doctor said to me, do you have a lot of stress? I don't know. I mean, I don't know what stress is.
00:07:06.200I just lived this way my whole life, you know, with watching out and being careful and, you know,
00:07:12.520trying not to make any mistakes. So it was just such a normal part of my life. I don't think that
00:07:18.260I viewed it any differently, even till now. I mean, things that are major to some other people
00:07:23.560are are nothing to me uh because of my you know my history in that regard so but you know in that
00:07:30.200life it's it's very difficult to navigate the life on its own but when you have that additional
00:07:37.720um you know problem of law enforcement constantly on you like they were with me
00:07:44.440it becomes that much more difficult so i was always kind of walking a tightrope
00:07:49.160you know, my whole 20 years in that life. Yeah. Wow. Um, and I, I looked up how old you were
00:07:55.760before the podcast. Are you 71? I am. Okay. Cause it doesn't look, you don't look like you've been
00:08:02.600stressed out for your whole life. I was, um, just in the other room with my husband and I was like,
00:08:07.800he was like, he's 71. I was like, no, no, you look good. Well, I can tell you, I can tell you
00:08:13.820this my dad passed away at 103 my dad was one of six uh was one of 19 yeah he was one of 90
00:08:21.540into their late 80s 90s he outlived them all but um so we have some good genes in the family but
00:08:28.260you know I mean I don't feel any different than I felt 30 40 years ago so I don't know maybe I'm
00:08:33.800just fortunate in that regard and you know I try to keep myself in good shape and it's a it's a
00:08:39.740number maybe it's the the the high stress life was doing something for you living that long wow
00:08:46.740that worked in reverse yeah that's funny um okay i do want to get into your wife's faith and your
00:08:54.440faith uh at some point in this episode because i think last time we spoke i talked a little bit
00:08:59.000about my experience um because i grew up you know with my dad teaching me the biblical stories and
00:09:05.180the psychological significance, but I didn't believe in God. That's for sure. I wanted to,
00:09:09.820but I didn't. Um, so you said you met your wife and it was kind of her faith that
00:09:15.980changed your life. Can you get into that a little bit? Yeah. My wife was a devout Christian when I
00:09:23.000met her, but she was 20 years old. And, um, it, it had an impact on me in that, not that I was
00:09:30.720buying into it. I grew up Catholic, but for me, Catholic school, you know, Catholicism was like
00:09:36.360a subject in school. I went to Catholic school. And so I wasn't really engaged in my faith. I
00:09:43.640understood that I had to practice the religion, but I wasn't engaged in my faith. I did believe
00:09:48.440in God, but that was about it. So when I met my wife and I saw how devout she was, and then take
00:09:55.440that a step further, meeting her mother, my mother-in-law, all about Jesus. I mean, she was
00:10:00.940the most godly woman I ever met in my life. Very simple woman and had a beautiful way of expressing
00:10:07.460her faith. She was very, you know, outgoing about it. But I respected their belief. It wasn't that
00:10:16.620I was buying into it. I respected their belief. And it was really at that point that I realized,
00:10:22.160you know they didn't really know who I was they grew up out here in California where I am now
00:10:27.740in Anaheim and I'm from New York so they didn't really know much about me or the mafia or anything
00:10:33.960like that but it was saying to myself these two women they're a direct contradiction to everything
00:10:40.420I'm about and when they really know who I am how is this going to work out you know it's not going
00:10:47.420to work out. So wanting to have her in my life was what made me interested in learning about my
00:10:56.360faith. So that's how she influenced me. But really what happened when I went to prison the second
00:11:05.100time, I was out, I did five years, I was out on parole for 13 months, and then they violated my
00:11:10.880parole. And it's a whole story behind that. The government was upset with me because I wasn't
00:11:15.700cooperating and they put me in solitary and I was in solitary for 29 months and seven days
00:11:22.800yeah it was a long stretch Michaela and I heard that experience that we were not meant to be
00:11:28.560solo creatures we were meant to be social oh and a lot of guys at night yeah when those lights went
00:11:34.720out man you heard a lot of moaning and groaning a lot of people do not do well and I understand
00:11:40.220But it was really during that experience that I grew my faith because I dove into my Bible.
00:11:47.780If you see my prison Bible, there's more of my notes on there than there is scripture.
00:11:51.560And I had my wife send me several hundred books on all different faiths because I really was in a search for the truth because I thought I would never come out of prison.
00:12:00.560The government had told me that I'm going to die in jail, that I'll never see the light of day again.
00:15:26.580wow okay that's slightly different than any initiation ceremonies i've heard that a normal
00:15:35.120normal person goes through wow that's quite movie like it's quite abnormal
00:15:40.420well it is you know and it's uh you know they wanted you to understand the seriousness of what
00:15:46.860you're getting involved in so it's uh it's very solemn and it's taken very seriously you know
00:15:52.760the mob life of Cosa Nostra it's not people think it's a business not a business it's a way of life
00:15:58.900it's a whole mind subculture from everything else that exists so you got to be in it you know body
00:16:04.420mind and soul or you don't you don't survive in that life and um you know so the fact that I was
00:16:10.400able to walk away um is is really it doesn't often happen you know unless unless people become
00:16:19.620informants and cooperate with the government and go into a witness protection program it's very hard
00:16:24.940to get away from that life yeah so how did you manage to do that well you know for me there's
00:16:32.720two two reasons for that you know the um the overall reason is i believe god had a different
00:16:38.520plan and a purpose for my life and that's certainly played out over the past 20 some odd years
00:16:43.280Um, but the practical reason for that is, you know, God never throws us into the fire without
00:16:50.480preparation. And I, I knew that life extremely well. So when I walked away, I knew what I would
00:16:58.680face, you know, one of the horrors of that life, Michaela, and I, you know, again, hate to be
00:17:03.480offensive, but I'm just being honest is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into
00:17:09.140a room and you don't walk out again. And, you know, unfortunately through my 20 years, I know
00:17:15.180people that have experienced that. And so when I walked away, I said, okay, they're not walking me
00:17:21.220into a room. They're going to have to come and get me. So I moved out to California. You know,
00:17:26.620it's, it's one thing to walk somebody in the ripple out, you know, cross country to try to
00:17:30.640hurt you and then get away with it. I was extremely disciplined in that I changed my
00:17:37.640whole lifestyle. I didn't go into any nightclubs where people know who I am. And, you know, I walk
00:17:43.640out in the parking lot and, you know, I'm in trouble. I didn't walk my dog every morning at
00:17:49.2007 a.m. I didn't go to the same restaurant every Tuesday. I didn't create patterns in my life. So
00:17:54.920if people were looking for me, they'd know where to find me. I was very discreet in that regard
00:18:00.440early on. And, you know, long story short, and they did put a contract on my life and I did have
00:18:06.720trouble in that regard. And I had one or two close calls, but bottom line is I just outlasted
00:18:12.880everybody. I mean, everybody I know is either dead or in prison for the rest of their life.
00:18:17.820And, you know, at the end of the day, I didn't put people in prison. I didn't turn against them
00:18:22.760in that way. I just left. So, you know, over a period of years, people said, ah, you know,
00:18:28.440we'll leave him alone. He didn't hurt anybody. And that was the end of that. So I think God
00:18:33.200protected me in all of this i have to believe that yeah well sounds like it's what it sounds
00:18:39.060like to me wow um okay let me see i have i have a lot of things i wanted to cover oh one thing i
00:18:47.700was interested in um for decisions made so let's say business decisions made in the mafia um does
00:18:54.780that decision come from the top down or is there a negotiation people take part of well it depends
00:19:00.660on what you know what we're talking about in business you know the way fortunate in that I
00:19:07.020knew how to use that life to benefit me in business and had a lot of success as a result both
00:19:11.800legally and illegally the biggest thing I did you know I had a devised a scheme to defraud the
00:19:19.520government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline it would be nice if I was in that business right
00:19:24.560now I'd be making more money than I made back then but because the taxes are a lot more
00:19:30.080But it was my scheme, so to speak. So but anytime you do something in that life, you have to put it on record with your boss. So he has to know what you're doing. And so, you know, when I came across this deal, I brought it into my boss at the time and I told him what I was doing. And, you know, I paid up to the family. Also, I gave them, you know, part of the proceeds of what I was earning. And you have to do that. That's how the family survives.
00:20:00.080But when I had a legal business, which I had many, I had two car agencies, I had a film production company, some restaurants, that was mine. I didn't have to give anything to anybody with that. So, but, you know, the boss in the hierarchy of the family, they do get involved in a lot of the business dealings because they need to know what's going on.
00:20:21.520and how risky it is, I suppose. Yeah, you know, and sometimes they'll say, no, we don't want you
00:20:26.300involved in that. Like, you know, in our life, during my era in that life, we were not allowed
00:20:31.620to deal with drugs. Couldn't deal with drugs. Drugs was off limits. I know guys that got in
00:20:37.740serious trouble for dealing with drugs, you know, if they violated the rules. And that comes from
00:20:43.800the top, you know, and you can't violate. No discussion. Yeah, that makes sense. How much
00:20:50.180money were you making from this this I guess gas scam you could call it well yes I ran that
00:20:58.980operation for about eight years I had the Russian mobsters from Brighton Beach in Brooklyn that
00:21:04.400were working with me they had a little gas operation and yeah we were very close and over
00:21:10.940a period of eight years we were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month and we were taking
00:21:16.440down 30 40 cents a gallon we we're bringing in between eight and ten million dollars a week
00:21:21.720at that time and when was that so you know that's what that's what the operation that's what the
00:21:27.620operation was grossing back then wow what went what year was that this was from about 79 through 85
00:21:36.140okay wow that is a lot of money and so how much and let me know if i'm asking anything i shouldn't
00:21:43.520be asking but how much of that did you keep well you know I mean there was a million and a half
00:21:51.000two million dollars a week that was coming into my pocket I had to I had to pay up yeah our my
00:21:57.900boss the family was getting about two million dollars a week also because we didn't have a lot
00:22:04.700of expenses quite honestly you know we just the way the the way we ran the operation I mean
00:22:09.900you know, I had my own jet plane at that time. I had a helicopter. I had, you know, three houses
00:22:15.600in three different states in the country. So, I mean, we had all the little bells and whistles
00:22:21.600that that a little bit more comfortable. But I was putting a lot of money away. No question.
00:22:27.720Wow. I didn't realize that you could have kind of different mafia groups work together. I'm not
00:22:34.500that I know anything about this topic, but you said you worked with the Russian mafia. Is that
00:22:38.660is that common for different I guess groups to work together I mean you can I mean we you know
00:22:46.120we oftentimes worked with a group of Irish mob guys called the Westies they were in Manhattan
00:22:52.560they were based in Manhattan we worked with them at times the Russian mob you know not many people
00:22:59.860work with them but I happen to get along with them and we had a very good relationship for a number
00:23:05.520of years. But it's not really common, but it does happen. It depends upon the situation.
00:23:12.420Do you know anything about how it's structured now? Like, is the mafia still, I guess, as powerful
00:23:19.480as it was back then now and just not talked about as much? It's, you know, you know, a lot of people
00:23:26.560say that, you know, it was John Gotti that destroyed the mob because he was so flashy and,
00:23:33.660and, uh, you know, outspoken and people like to point fingers in different ways, but
00:23:39.640what destroyed the mob was the RICO act, the racketeering laws. Um, we didn't, we didn't
00:23:46.380understand it. We didn't keep up with it. And it gave the government such, um, and it devastated
00:23:52.780my former life, you know, throughout the mid eighties. And you got to give Giuliani credit
00:23:57.060for that because he was the first one that used the racketeering laws effectively. And he set the
00:24:02.920pace. And so he put so many guys away. He took away so much power that we had through the unions.
00:24:11.140He stripped us of all of that. And he made so many people turn informant. And as a result,
00:24:18.360it's not as powerful today, not nearly as powerful as it was during my era, but it's still there.
00:24:25.340It's not going away. It still exists. The same structure is in place. I think guys have gotten
00:24:32.260smart and they're a lot more low-key you don't see the John Gotti's anymore out there and flashy
00:24:37.560because you can't last in that life when you when you're like that but it's not going away in my
00:24:44.600lifetime I can tell you that if you're listening to this you are probably some of the most well
00:24:49.400informed and least paranoid people on the planet but are you too nonchalant about your safety what
00:24:54.640about your data do you have the same mindset when it comes to keeping your internet connection
00:24:58.620secure, it's not paranoia if everyone's really out to get you. The main thing about using a VPN
00:25:03.500is if you're downloading content and you don't want to be caught, you don't have to be paranoid
00:25:07.260that you'll go to jail because of some archaic law when doing so. Just use NordVPN. Your internet
00:25:12.540service provider also can apparently sell your data to advertisers for a profit, all while
00:25:17.120forfeiting the idea that people like you have a right to own their online information. You can
00:25:21.840defend your online privacy by grabbing your NordVPN deal today over at nordvpn.com slash tmpp or use
00:25:29.220promo code tmpp for 61% off their premium plan and their free anti-malware feature all with NordVPN's
00:25:36.68030-day money-back guarantee. Yeah yeah and I suppose I mean I don't know what the effects of
00:25:45.300the last couple of years have done but I know just the general public has less trust in the government
00:25:50.380So I would assume, you know, the more restrictive of a society, the more likely people are to do things illegally, especially if you get forced into doing things that you think are reasonable and then they turn illegal.
00:27:09.040When I first met my husband, he's kind of what turned me to the Christian faith as well.
00:27:15.320and he's very christian and um he i i was being skeptical and he he's a pretty like disagreeable
00:27:25.800skeptical person but i was like oh yeah i don't really trust you know people are just people
00:27:31.060right so you put people in positions of power like doctors say or people in the government but
00:27:35.440they're still just people it was like i don't i don't trust i would say if someone's in a position
00:27:39.900of authority i'm less likely to trust them for whatever reason and so when we first met we kind
00:27:45.980of had discussions about who was trustworthy and who isn't trustworthy and i was like i don't trust
00:27:50.460the government right now like i don't really trust the medical system i don't really trust the
00:27:54.480government and anyway he's come around but i think that is a change in the recent years like you said
00:28:00.76030 years ago things would probably have been different significantly different it's gotten
00:28:05.120bad in the last five years really yes absolutely it's uh you know i i don't you don't want to get
00:28:12.260me started on that i mean i just wrote a book called a mafia democracy um and you know michelle
00:28:19.520it's it's amazing how mob like our government is acting in so many different ways and you know
00:28:27.140since i still have that mentality and i've had that experience i see how machiavellian our
00:28:32.520government is being. And it's, it's frightful. It really is. It's scary. And the government
00:28:37.840overreach and the things that are happening now, I'm, I'm really concerned about the future of
00:28:42.920our country. I really am. This is not the America that I grew up in or that my, my family believed
00:28:48.840in. Um, when I said not my dad, but everybody else, but you know, it's frightening. It really
00:28:54.340is what I see going on here on a daily basis. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I agree. I just did an episode
00:29:01.760with my dad and this guy named Vivek Ramaswamy, who wrote a book called Woke Inc. And we talked
00:29:10.460about ESGs. I don't know if you know about ESGs, you might, but it stands for Environment Social
00:29:18.640Governance Scores. And so CEOs of major corporations, some of the really big ones like BlackRock,
00:29:26.260have got together and they decided that the companies under them should have ESG scores.
00:29:31.120So they're rating these, like, capitalist companies on how well they do supporting the environment or how well they do supporting social causes, right?
00:29:41.400And it kind of undermines the entire system that America was built in, just capitalism, because you can trust a CEO to increase the wealth of their company, right, and increase the amount of money their shareholders have and be greedy in that way.
00:29:58.180but when they start implementing policies that affect the environment or affect the environment,
00:30:03.440things like that, the country starts getting a little bit strange. We're releasing that episode
00:30:08.320today, but it's something worth looking into, ESGs, because I think a lot of the political
00:30:14.320unrest that's caused by a number of reasons right now is also caused by this kind of top-down
00:30:20.880implementation of esgs in these giant corporations um esgs i'll send you i'll send you a link on
00:30:28.320i think you should know yeah i'd love to see that i'd love to see it really yeah um
00:30:33.760okay one one question so if you've kind of i mean you you grew up in this um but if you've
00:30:42.080kind of crossed the line and decided okay uh the government's the government taking tax money
00:30:47.660isn't isn't good and if the government's after your family and police are after your family
00:30:54.380how do you define what's morally acceptable and what's not morally acceptable if it's not by what
00:31:02.560the law says well you know that's uh you know that's an age-old question and somebody had said
00:31:10.700to me one time you know michael you have no moral issue with paying taxes but jesus said
00:31:16.460you know render therefore to Caesar what are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's
00:31:22.200and I said yes he did say that I said but understand the environment in which Jesus said
00:31:29.720that he didn't believe that the Romans should be overtaxing the people he wasn't saying that's a
00:31:36.380good thing and that's what the government should be doing but you know they tried to put Jesus on
00:31:41.960the spot when he was in a crowd of people. And if he would have said, no, don't pay the government
00:31:47.320or the Romans, he would have put people in jeopardy. So what he said is, listen, you got
00:31:53.140to obey the law. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's not sinful what the Romans are
00:31:58.280doing, taking advantage of you. But he was, he outsmarted the people that asked him that question.
00:32:04.380So do I think it's morally wrong to, you know, want to hide money from the government?
00:32:11.800that I think they're misusing and that they're using against us, you know, I don't think it's
00:32:17.540sinful. I don't. And I'm not trying to justify it because I'm not doing that now. And I'm not
00:32:24.200justifying what I did back then, because when I did it back then, I was a criminal. I did it with
00:32:28.800criminal intent. I wasn't being, you know, Robin Hood, or I wasn't trying to share it with others,
00:32:34.540you know, and your intent means everything. So back then it was criminal intent. I was enriching
00:32:38.980myself and the people around us. But so at that point, it was sinful. But if I were to do that
00:32:46.800now and say, you know, the government is overreaching, I know for a fact that this is
00:32:52.720wasteful money. I know that for a fact that they're taking advantage of people that are
00:32:57.140trying to put food on their table and pay their mortgage and so on and so forth. So I don't
00:33:03.320believe it would be sinful if I had the right intent in what I was going to do with that
00:33:08.040with that money yeah so judge the heart if i explain explain that like yeah um okay i mean
00:33:15.800i wrote this chapter in my book that if you see why why is it that government workers
00:33:22.140i mean government uh elected officials go in with blue collar income and lives and come out
00:33:30.020as multi-millionaires because they use the system to enrich themselves and that's not what this
00:33:36.560system was built upon. They're supposed to be public servants doing the work for the people
00:33:40.480that put them in office. But you get people like Nancy Pelosi, I'm sorry, that she's enriched
00:33:47.840herself to the tune of several hundred million dollars using her position to enrich herself.
00:33:53.220To me, that's sinful. That's not what this system is set up for. So I look at it as I'm exposing
00:34:01.100this. I'm letting people know this is what's happening. Now, I don't want an insurrection.
00:34:05.980I don't want a revolution. What I'm saying is the way you make people pay for this, you hold
00:34:10.460them accountable at the voting booths. And I'll tell you this in your own life. If your husband
00:34:17.100will use that or my wife lies to me once, well, okay. They lie to me a second time. You start to
00:34:24.240get a little bit more irritated. A third time, a fourth time, it becomes a pattern. You're not
00:34:28.980going to accept it. You're not going to accept it. It's not a healthy relationship. Well, we put
00:34:34.020our people in office they lie to us constantly constantly make promises they don't keep reverse
00:34:40.860themselves you know and we look no it's not politics that's lying and we shouldn't allow
00:34:47.040them to do that so what do you do you vote them out we still do have power in numbers here in
00:34:52.480this country and that's that's the whole reason i wrote the book the whole reason i'm so irritated
00:34:57.600with this. And, you know, people say, well, Michael, why are you so why are you so in tune
00:35:02.880with this now? It's not me. I'm 71 years old. There's not much more they can do to me or about
00:35:07.480me. You know, that's I'm here now. But I have seven children. I have grandchildren. And I
00:35:14.020concerned about the future of this country for their benefit. And so I'm trying to sound the
00:35:19.360alarm, so to speak, to let people understand what's really going on. And some of the things
00:35:24.880that I'm seeing now, it's just, they're so scary. I mean, the way the government is using the FBI
00:35:30.660as a tool for them. Yeah, that's scary. It's supposed to be an independent agency. That's
00:35:37.120very, very, very scary. Now, I will tell you this. I know from past experience that the FBI
00:35:43.340overreaches, that they break the law to go after criminals. But maybe, maybe, McKellie,
00:35:49.420you can justify it because mobsters are criminals. So, hey, you overreach a little bit against the
00:35:54.540mobster nobody's going to get upset but when you start doing that against legitimate people
00:36:00.420because remember you give the government they'll take a yard they'll take as much as they possibly
00:36:06.080can and if they overreach against the criminal they'll overreach against the legitimate person
00:36:11.540too so you have to keep them in check that's what democracy that's what a republic is all about we
00:36:17.260have to keep them in check and unfortunately i don't see that happening now and it's very scary
00:36:23.540to me it's also hard to see who's in charge right now like who's making the decisions behind what's
00:36:32.360going on that scares me it's like you don't even know what's happening well it should it should
00:36:40.160scare you um you know and most people and you don't blame them they're oblivious to this they
00:36:45.860don't understand you know they're being fed information and they take it for what it's worth
00:36:50.360But, you know, middle America, most people in this country, what are they concerned about?
00:36:56.760Paying their mortgage, putting food on the table.
00:36:59.120They're not they're not paying attention to the things that are going on and they don't see it.
00:37:04.400They don't understand it. They can't blame them.
00:37:08.440You know, every once in a while, I'll watch one of these shows where they go out into the street and they ask people about things that are going on in government today.
00:37:17.220And some of the responses, Michaela, I don't know if you have a, people are so going on in our country, our world, it's, it's, and they're voting, they're voting.
00:37:27.080I know. Yeah. Well, it's, it's a lot easier to, I think it's a lot easier to operate in your life if you just take some things for granted, right? Now, it's not easier if the things that you trust start failing around you.
00:37:42.400But if you walk around, like before I kind of started questioning everything, you know, I had trust in the government doing what a government is supposed to do and the medical system doing what a medical system is supposed to do.
00:37:55.600And then you don't have to think about those things.
00:37:58.180You can just say, OK, those work how they're supposed to work.
00:38:00.780And you can focus on other issues in your life.
00:38:03.300but if you suddenly start thinking about all those things it's like oh what exactly is the
00:38:08.540government and what is it doing right now and who's in charge and what are its goals and how
00:38:13.220is that changing the shape of the country and then how are different policies being implemented
00:38:17.880how are those affecting me like that complicates things to a level that makes it a lot harder to
00:38:22.500think well I need to go to work today and just make enough money so I can eat it's like that's
00:38:28.320on a different level exactly no you nailed it you're absolutely right it's just it's so much
00:38:35.380information to process it's uh it's very difficult it's very difficult for people to focus on what
00:38:41.720search and say what's really happening here they don't want to deal with it and i get it they they
00:38:47.240put people in an office they expect them to do the right thing and that's it unfortunately it
00:38:52.320doesn't happen that way. Not to necessarily get into a biblical discussion, but that
00:39:00.120verse you talked about that's repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. I also wonder
00:39:09.100what he was talking about when he said repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, right? Because
00:39:15.960you could say repay to the government what belongs to the government. That's not necessarily
00:39:20.820what the government is telling you belongs to them?
00:39:23.840Well, you know, people don't understand.
00:41:04.480And, and again, it's really for the future of my children and grandchildren that this country is, I think we're on a very bad course. And I don't know if it's reversible at this point. I really don't. I don't, you know, biblically, are we getting near the end times? There's a lot of, you know, people always say that.
00:41:26.040And it could be another thousand years. Who knows? I mean, we don't know. But it certainly looks like things are falling apart here in America. I mean, the whole mentality is changing. You know, people are now, our young people are talking about socialism in a good way. Socialism hasn't really, I mean, real socialism hasn't worked, you know, credibly anywhere in the world.
00:41:50.600But we're talking about that here in the United States and they're advocating it.
00:41:57.140I mean, you know, we have politicians now that are that are avowed socialists and people are supporting them.
00:42:04.740So, I mean, it's it's scary stuff for me.
00:42:07.800And I just figured, hey, you know what?
00:42:18.800I've talked to my dad about this too and I was like things look pretty bad from my point of view
00:42:23.260at the moment and I don't know if it's going to get worse or if if people are going to get sick
00:42:29.660of it and in maybe a decade things will turn around because it's gotten worse so quickly that
00:42:34.480maybe society needs time to catch up to kind of realize what's going on to fight back against it
00:42:39.580but I asked him if it was actually worse than what he's experienced because he's been alive during
00:42:46.120He was very concerned about the Cold War. Right. And that was definitely, you know, America entered danger zone during that period of time.
00:42:55.040But do you think from your experience throughout life, politically, this is the most unstable you've seen in America?
00:43:03.000Oh, absolutely. We said, you know, there was a time when the Democratic and Republican parties were not too far apart.
00:43:10.700They really weren't. They had some different things, you know, different ideologies in a little way. But you can have peaceful conversation. You can have intelligent dialogue. You know, Democrats and Republicans got along.
00:43:25.160I've never seen these countries so divided I've never seen such vitriol such hatred such venom
00:43:34.900coming out from one side against the other and it's starting at the top listen you know I I was
00:43:42.040a supporter of Donald Trump because I supported his policies and I took some heat from that people
00:43:48.320say well you're a Trump lover I said no I'm just not a Trump hater I don't have the syndrome I
00:43:53.940supported his policies because I thought they were good for America I said listen I don't invite him
00:43:59.360to my house for dinner he's not going to date one of my daughters you know personally we don't have
00:44:04.380to get along but his his policies for America I thought were good if he was a democrat I would
00:44:11.820I would support him also because of his policies but you you can't even talk like that anymore
00:44:18.540Because people are so blinded by hatred. And, you know, what I disagreed with Trump is I thought he was very divisive. Now, you know, a lot of people say, well, he had to fight back. Well, he could have fought back a little bit more diplomatically because it starts from the top.
00:44:34.840You know, when people see this division on the top, it bleeds down into have these two forces that are just at odds with each other all the time.
00:44:44.500And I'm seeing that now worse than ever, worse than ever.
00:44:49.180There's so much division in this country. Families are fighting with one another over their political beliefs.
00:44:54.720It's just terrible. And I think we're on a course.
00:44:57.560It would take somebody with a very, very strong personality and real leadership quality, somebody that has to be charismatic, has to be endearing, has to be just that special kind of person to try to and really believe in bringing this country together again.
00:45:17.400And I just don't know if that person exists.
00:45:20.360Yeah, that's going to be a difficult person to find.
00:45:23.240um even just somebody who wants to bring the country together and doesn't think that one part
00:45:29.580of the country are full of demons even just finding that person yeah yeah yeah that's going
00:45:37.440to be tricky um okay going going back to your kind of experience in the in the mob did you learn
00:45:45.640did you learn anything that you've passed on to your kids that was that you found helpful
00:45:50.520from living that life? Oh yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of things, listen, in that life,
00:45:58.460you, you have to have discipline. Very, very important. You got to learn how to respect and
00:46:04.860obey authority. It's kind of a, it's almost like militaristic in that way, you know? And I think
00:46:13.200I was president. I would have every 18 year old join the military for two years. I think it's,
00:46:19.340it's great learning. I think it's good for our young men, especially, you know, to learn
00:46:24.500discipline and authority and structure in their lives. So, you know, I've also learned in that
00:46:30.800life that you become a good listener. You don't shoot your mouth off. You're very slow to speak,
00:46:36.940very quick to listen. And I learned in that life that you should be the last one to condemn
00:46:44.140somebody because you know that life mikhail is like a wheel and things turn around the person
00:46:51.160that you condemn one day that's on the bottom might be your boss on the top and they don't
00:46:56.140they don't forget that so you're always the last one to condemn people um you know to try to try
00:47:02.480to reason things out first so that when your turn comes you're not the first one that's condemned
00:47:07.640so you know and these are qualities that i think are important in life they're life skills that i
00:47:13.320think are very important. You know, I used to tell people, especially in business, you know,
00:47:17.920there's times when you could be the smartest person in the room and you don't want anybody
00:47:21.600to know that. So what do you do? You keep your mouth shut and you listen, you let people talk
00:47:25.680and so on and so forth. And then, and you learn a lot by that. You learn a lot about the person
00:47:30.520you're sitting with and the deal and the negotiation. There's other times when you're
00:47:35.460not the smartest person in the room and people don't know that because you're not, you're not
00:47:41.300speaking out of turn. They're wondering what you're thinking. And meanwhile, they're talking
00:47:45.840and you're getting all the, you can become educated during that meeting. So, you know,
00:47:50.500I've taught my kids that and, and for the most part, they've listened. I mean, I have five
00:47:54.880daughters. So, so my daughters are, uh, they're all very dependent and they're, uh, you know,
00:48:00.780they're like their mom. They certainly think for themselves and, and they're, uh, um, they're
00:48:06.880tough. I got to tell you, they're not pushovers. They're very tough. Hopefully they instilled a
00:48:12.960little bit of that. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. That's very cool. Did you have kind of an
00:48:20.940us and them mentality? You said that you were in pre-med and that you stopped doing pre-med,
00:48:27.880right? So did you have a group of friends that were kind of completely outside of this
00:48:32.640um and then you ended up getting more involved is that kind of what happened getting more involved
00:48:38.860back in the mob no I mean not yeah not really I mean you know I was an athlete in school I mean
00:48:46.020I played sports I uh even though I knew about the life and I was part of the life and I always had
00:48:52.820my dad's friends around you know at the house and all of that um I was just fairly normal in my
00:48:59.560relationships going to school you know I had friends that way and of course they knew who I
00:49:04.920was because my dad had so much publicity so at times you know I got into scuffles with kids when
00:49:10.480they'd make remarks about my dad oh you got a mafia dad you know I would fight but um and then a lot
00:49:16.520of kids they don't want to be a dad you know how kids are you never know they're gonna what side
00:49:20.840they're gonna pick with you but um so I was fairly normal things really started when when my dad went
00:49:27.060to prison and then I was really immersed in the life when Joe Colombo who was the boss of the
00:49:33.220Colombo family kind of took me under his wing and then I was around the guys all the time and then
00:49:38.800it meant something to me because I had a goal I wanted to help my dad so I started to pay more
00:49:45.360attention to listen and to get more involved yeah that makes sense that makes sense I think I've
00:49:53.040I think I've done a lot, not to compare us at all, but a lot of the way that I've structured my life was to help my dad for whatever reason.
00:50:04.820And I guess, I mean, lots of people know who he is now, so I guess he's an incredible person, but I always had a deep respect for my dad.
00:50:13.300So a lot of what I've done, honestly, probably since I got healthy, because when I was sick, that was basically what I did, was just being sick.
00:50:22.660But when I got healthy, I think I've spent a lot of my time helping my dad for probably really seven years, like seven years basically full time.
00:50:35.340It's just been how do I make this person's life easier because he went through like health struggles and like fame and controversy and it was like, how do I make his life easier?
00:50:47.260um luckily things seem to be set up I've like structured things now enough that it takes up
00:50:54.640less time but it's been an interesting experience there's an it's an interesting experience do you
00:51:00.820have siblings yeah I was one of seven also um unfortunately two of my younger sisters passed
00:51:07.160away so there's uh there's five of us left now wow um and yeah so and we're fairly close I mean
00:51:16.380they they all live back east uh but we you know we stay in touch is is there you know it's funny
00:51:22.700because it was my it was my wife it was my wife that really um turned me on to dad she was always
00:51:30.620fascinated by she she listened to your dad quite a bit and she was very fascinated by his views on
00:51:38.220a lot of things and he she said mike you got to listen to you know jordan and it was it was
00:51:43.920fascinating really because and she still listens to your dad a lot now we've got to get you guys
00:51:49.440to have a conversation i told him we were on the phone before i started the podcast and i was like
00:51:53.440oh i'm talking to this guy he was in the mob he turned his life around should be a really
00:51:57.100interesting conversation it's like you guys should you guys should talk that'd be good i think people
00:52:01.780would really enjoy that that'd be a good conversation yeah it would be nice for one day
00:52:05.520one thing i wanted to know are there women that are in the more like business area of the mob or
00:52:13.260is it really focused around men in the families in america in cousin austria which means this
00:52:19.060thing of ours in cousin austria in america women don't play a role in that life at all
00:52:23.720you know unless unless for some reason you know one of the guys was bringing their girlfriend or
00:52:32.580their wife involvement in some way but they have no authority they have no place in that life at
00:52:39.060all uh it's different in italy in the mafia in italy as a matter of fact i did a i just did a
00:52:44.980um a video on my youtube channel uh last week about a woman who actually um was kind of the
00:52:53.920boss of of one of the mafia families in naples which is my hometown my parents hometown um so
00:53:00.660in italy yes in the mafia here in america no not till this point not through for the last hundred
00:53:07.460years now whether that changes or not i don't know but i i doubt it will and is that kind of
00:53:12.400the same you said you worked with um irish and russians did they kind of have a similar setup
00:53:17.960not that it was a hundred percent men um from the best of my knowledge it's it's a hundred percent
00:53:25.300men yeah i mean they didn't you know these other groups didn't have the structure that we had
00:53:30.900they didn't have the formality that we had you know with the russian mob i don't believe they
00:53:36.200take an oath i don't believe they have ranks they're more clannish it's more family actual
00:53:41.820family blood relatives that are involved and it seems that the person that's making the most money
00:53:47.060calls the shots um so they didn't have the structure that we had the irish people the same
00:53:52.840way they were just you know gangsters you know without a lot of structure interesting and no
00:53:59.540women i i didn't notice any women at all yeah okay um i don't i'm not that surprised by that
00:54:05.840um was it stressful then for I mean it must have been like I just I can't imagine having to deal
00:54:11.880with life and then also having to deal with the fact that you're you're doing you're operating
00:54:16.640illegally so you have to worry about the government on top of everything um would that
00:54:21.860must like is it stressful for families associated or was it stressful for families associated women
00:54:28.400associated with the mafia? Yeah, you know, Michaela, you know, one thing I don't do,
00:54:34.620I never glorify the life because it doesn't deserve to be glorified. But what I've always
00:54:40.420said is that the mob life, the gang life, they're evil lifestyles. And the reason I say that I'm not
00:54:47.680calling the guys evil because I was one of them and everybody's not evil. Now, there was some
00:54:52.980bad people but that's true in every walk of life but the lifestyle is evil because I don't know
00:54:59.500any family of any made member of that life that hasn't been totally destroyed and including my
00:55:06.340own now not not my wife and kids fortunately but my mother spent 33 years without her husband
00:55:12.860while my dad was incarcerated and in the last years of her life she died in 2012
00:55:19.760I can only describe her relationship with my dad as very ugly because she blamed him for everything that went wrong in her.
00:55:28.280And what went wrong? Well, I had a sister that died of an overdose of drugs at the age of 27, my baby sister.
00:55:34.820My brother was a drug addict for 25 years. He got himself in trouble.
00:55:39.380He was a street kid, ended up cooperating with the government and actually cooperated against my father and put my father back in prison when he was out on parole.
00:55:48.940a son against a father. Another younger sister, she was mentally unstable. She died at the age
00:55:57.160of 42 of cancer. And so the whole family was devastated. And any lifestyle that causes that
00:56:06.480for a family is an evil lifestyle. And that's how it is across the board. So it's what I try to
00:56:12.720explain to these young kids today. I said, you're not only doing this to yourself, you're destroying
00:56:17.060your family. This is very destructive. It's a bad lifestyle. And, and so, yes, it was very,
00:56:22.960very stressful. My mother was constantly under stress. You know, my sisters that didn't accept
00:56:27.840it the way I was able to accept it, you know, a little different sometimes with a, with a,
00:56:32.320with a girl and a boy. And so it's, it's very hard. It's a very hard life to navigate. And
00:56:39.520I guess people get it, you know, they look at it, they're from the outside looking in.
00:56:45.140But, you know, the unfortunate thing, Mikael, with a lot of young men, they're very, very, very impressioned by the life.
00:56:55.060Meaning I go into, you know, to these gangbangers and they'll look at me and I say, Mike, come on.
00:57:00.920You had the cars, you had the women, you had the power, the prestige, you had a jet plane.
01:02:05.300The attitude and the actions of the apostles afterwards proved to me that there was a risen Jesus.
01:02:13.120And it was all of these things that combined.
01:02:17.120And, you know, I always tell people, I don't suggest that you go and live in solitary for several years and do the research like I did to prove, you know, scripture.
01:02:27.440But for me, life changing and life saving because it became indelible.
01:02:33.260And, you know, here's another thing, you know, Mikhail, I try to look at things very practically.
01:02:39.320So from the time I was five years old, my father drummed it into my head.
01:02:43.860Michael, you've got to be a man's man.
01:02:45.740That's the standard in life you have to live up to.
01:02:56.000So when I started to study Jesus, I did things a little bit differently.
01:03:01.580I separated his manhood from his deity, and I really wanted to see what kind of man he was because I was so in tune with the qualities and characteristics of what a man's man should be.
01:03:12.980So when I studied Jesus of Nazareth, I was blown away by his character, his strength, his emotion.
01:03:24.340Everything about him to me was perfect.
01:03:28.160And I said, this is somebody you should emulate.
01:03:30.940So trying to be very practical about it, I said, okay, let's say I try to emulate Jesus of Nazareth throughout my life.
01:03:39.200Well, I'm going to be a better person.
01:03:41.260I'm going to be a better husband to my wife, a better father to my children.
01:03:45.040If I'm a boss, I'm going to treat my employees right.
01:03:47.880If I'm an employee, I'm going to give my boss an honest day's work.
01:03:51.340Everybody in the community, I'm going to be outgiving.
01:03:54.040I'm going to be wanting to help people.
01:03:55.540They're all going to benefit from me trying to emulate what I perceive to be the great man that ever walked the earth.
01:04:21.640You can't lose because if I'm being the Savior of the world and are accepting Christ and asking for forgiveness, if we're wrong about that, well, then we're dead anyway.
01:04:32.540We didn't lose anything throughout our life, but everybody benefited from us being a better person.
01:04:38.920And but I do believe that he is the savior of the world. I believe it with all my heart. I'm not trying to justify it or convince myself otherwise. I'm not a perfect person in any way, but my faith is perfect because I believe this and nothing can stand in the way of that at this point in time.
01:04:58.740I've come to the understanding of why bad things happen to good people. I get it all. You know,
01:05:04.460my kids complain to me sometime, Michele, you know, daddy, that's not fair. I said, really,
01:05:09.540you know, what's not fair. What's not fair is this little kid that was born in Africa that has
01:05:16.160nothing to eat, no shoes on his feet. And that child did nothing but be born. That's all he did.
01:05:22.520So don't tell me what's not fair because you've got it pretty good in your life.
01:05:25.940and I understand this, you know, and it's helped me just, it just helped me throughout my life,
01:05:34.460you know, having this point of view and it's all because of my faith and all because of the
01:05:39.260research and the study I did and the impact that God has had on my life. That was great.
01:05:43.260I think, I think that's similar to, uh, what my dad believes and I'm not entirely sure exactly
01:05:50.500where he is in his journey i'm not like it's hard to kind of get a read on that but what i know he
01:05:58.960firmly believes is that if you if you um act as if jesus would have acted then your life is better
01:06:06.540and people's lives around you is better and so that's what he tells people too is that's the
01:06:11.900best way to live for sure and and and everyone really who's familiar with christianity kind of
01:06:19.560knows that. So that's very, that's very cool. Um, Michael, if people are interested in learning
01:06:27.640more about you or finding you online, where should they go? Well, my website is michaelfrancis.com.
01:06:34.080Um, YouTube, just plug in Michael Francis. I'm on all the social media platforms, you know,
01:06:39.360under my own name. Uh, and usually it'll say official next to us. They know it's me. Uh,
01:06:44.880My book, if they go off you at democracy.com, they'll get a free chapter.
01:06:50.340We give them a free chapter to see if they're interested, and then they can purchase it anywhere.
01:06:54.560On my website, we give them a signed copy of it.
01:06:58.960I'm all over the place, you know, easy to find.
01:07:02.020But, yeah, and, you know, hopefully people tune in and, you know, they hear a little bit more.