The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - September 08, 2024


PREVIEW： Epochs #175 ｜ Pompey and Caesar： Part III

Hosted by
Callum Edmunds Carl Benjamin Connor Tomlinson Harry Robinson John Wheatley Joshua Ferme Edward McLaren Elizabeth Heverin
Mentioned
Sulla Theodore Momsen Rex Warner Alexander Stalin Margaret Thatcher Pontifex Maximus Ken Livingstone King Nicomedes Julius Caesar Caesarean Cornelius Cornelia Damocles Rubicon Epochs Pompey Hitler Marius
The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #993 The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #995

Episode Stats


Length

15 minutes

Words per minute

167.66

Word count

2,652

Sentence count

160

Harmful content

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Epochs, I continue my story of the fall of the Roman Republic with a look at the life of Julius Caesar, starting with his early life in Rome, and the events that led to his overthrow of the Republic.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.240 Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs, where I should be continuing once again my story, my narrative of the decline and fall of the Roman Republic.
00:00:08.100 Now last time I finished talking about Pompey and the pirates, now I'm going to switch over to the story of Caesar.
00:00:15.280 I'm going to talk all about the life of the young Caesar and try and bring that thread of the narrative up to speed.
00:00:21.380 Going to be using almost exclusively or exclusively Plutarch again, because he's the only real or the best source on the early life of Caesar.
00:00:30.800 So let's dive right in. First, before I actually start reading from Plutarch, I want to say a few words in general about Caesar, how you can view Caesar.
00:00:41.560 Like a lot of people in history, particularly ancient history, it's possible, very, very possible, to have two completely different views of the man.
00:00:49.960 In more modern history, it's a bit more difficult. When someone's fully in the light of history, so to speak, somebody like Stalin or Hitler or Margaret Thatcher or Ken Livingstone, there's so much information about them.
00:01:07.560 There's so much in their own words, so much footage, and it's known so well exactly what they did and when and all that kind of thing,
00:01:14.840 that it's more difficult to have completely polarised different views of them.
00:01:21.140 What you see is often what you get. You have to really sort of do mental acrobatics to come to a completely different conclusion about the type of man Stalin was, for example.
00:01:31.380 Yeah, it's still possible. Revisionists do it.
00:01:33.280 But when you go back into the depths of time, when you go back to ancient history, really, where you've only got a small number of sources,
00:01:40.700 the counter-arguments, the revisionist types of history, can be much more convincing.
00:01:47.240 And in fact, there are lots of figures where you can have two completely different views of them, and they're both kind of valid.
00:01:53.260 For example, the idea of Alexander the Great, one that he's just a shining hero, you know, the paragon of Hellenistic heroism.
00:02:04.080 Another view of him is that he's just a butcher. He's just a killer. He's just a complete autocrat that's drunk and he's out of his mind. 0.97
00:02:12.880 So you can either have the poetic version of Alexander, or you could have the down and dirty version of Alexander, and they're sort of both true in a way, you know, they're sort of, the arguments are there, solid arguments are there for both of them.
00:02:27.560 Well, Caesar is one of those people. Most people like Caesar. Most historians, most scholars like him or think that he's a great man, quote-unquote great man of history.
00:02:38.520 But there are many that say he's bad. I'll go into that, that aspect of things a bit more next time, because I just want to talk about his early life this week.
00:02:48.280 But I did want to touch on it. For example, the great classicist Theodore Momsen, who was a ridiculous fanboy of Julius Caesar, and he hated most people.
00:02:58.960 He's extremely rude and dismissive about most people, Momsen. It's very, very hard to get in Momsen's good books.
00:03:05.400 But for some reason, he loved Caesar, and I'll read you a passage probably next week, where he's over the top, lavishing praise on him, not mentioning anything that might be detrimental to the man.
00:03:17.620 And so, yeah, he's a massive, massive fanboy.
00:03:20.220 Then there are other scholars that say, look, Julius Caesar did something approaching genocide in Gaul.
00:03:26.720 Julius Caesar, in political terms, was ultra-cynical, cynical to the point of it being almost sickening, that he was power-hungry, he was a megalomaniac.
00:03:39.220 Lots of people say things like that about Caesar.
00:03:41.880 So Caesar does divide opinion.
00:03:44.500 Just wanted to say that, stress that, just straight off the bat.
00:03:46.980 But with that said, I want to read a quick passage from Rex Warner, talking about Caesar in general terms, or rather talking about Plutarch's account of Caesar.
00:03:58.580 And then we can jump straight in with the original source material.
00:04:02.220 Okay, so Rex Warner said this, quote,
00:04:04.200 In his accounts of Caesar's wars, he is naturally heavily dependent on the bellum gallium,
00:04:33.640 the bellium civale, and the other works of the Caesarean corpus.
00:04:38.700 They're works penned by Caesar himself.
00:04:40.740 But it is to his credit that he also consults other sources, including some, like Tenusius, hostile to Caesar.
00:04:48.820 The most insidious feature of the work as a whole is the assumption, by no means of course particular to Plutarch,
00:04:55.340 that Caesar had planned from the outset of his career to overthrow the Republic and seize absolute power.
00:05:00.380 Well, that's another thing to say, this is me again, there's another thing to say about the view of Caesar,
00:05:06.320 the thing that a lot of scholars touch upon.
00:05:09.200 And it's this idea of, did Caesar always want to be a dictator for life?
00:05:14.100 Did he always want to be a Sulla figure, or even surpass Sulla, in terms of absolute autocracy,
00:05:20.700 even if he's actually less bloodthirsty?
00:05:23.080 That is a theme that I will return to again and again.
00:05:25.300 Spoiler alert, my personal opinion, is that it's somewhere in between, somewhere along the line.
00:05:31.500 I don't think as a 17-year-old or a 25-year-old, Caesar had designs to be a complete autocrat.
00:05:37.900 I think at some point he realised his hand was being forced that way, and it was actually expedient for him to do it.
00:05:44.840 And he felt he didn't really have any other choice.
00:05:47.280 But I think that Rubicon of the mind was crossed by Caesar somewhere along the line,
00:05:53.560 and actually, again, my personal opinion, somewhere fairly late, almost certainly after he became a triumvir.
00:05:59.960 That's just my opinion, but we'll go into it in more detail as we go along over the weeks.
00:06:04.120 This view, i.e. that Caesar did plan it all along, has found favour in some countries at certain times,
00:06:10.060 but there is nothing to be said for it.
00:06:12.400 Caesar was always daring and ambitious.
00:06:15.320 His social and financial circumstances were such that he had to be, if he was going to make a career at all.
00:06:21.540 But until 59, his successes, though striking, especially his election as Pontifex Maximus,
00:06:27.580 in no way strained the normal framework of Roman public life.
00:06:31.140 As for his position after 59, it could hardly have come out whatever his plans,
00:06:36.180 had not Cato and his friends, by their short-sighted opposition from 62 on, driven Pompey into Caesar's arms.
00:06:43.900 The belief that Caesar thought himself born to rule alone leads Plutarch into repeating exaggerations
00:06:49.680 of his early importance and suppressions of his reliance on the help of others.
00:06:55.380 In the 60s, Caesar, like many more, climbed on the Pompeian bandwagon.
00:07:00.320 But Plutarch says nothing of this.
00:07:01.780 Later, his belief in Caesar's monarchical designs makes him oversimplify the conflict between Pompey and Caesar
00:07:08.900 and deters him from any discussion of what Caesar, as dictator, had in mind for the Constitution and himself.
00:07:15.580 End quote.
00:07:16.680 So there you go.
00:07:17.260 Rex Warner pinpoints it at around 59 BC.
00:07:20.880 I actually think it's a bit later than that.
00:07:22.800 But we'll get into all of that, as I said.
00:07:24.520 And as we go on into the Civil Wars, I shall be using other sources, Dio and Appian largely,
00:07:31.920 and some secondary sources, people like Momsen, because Plutarch, as Rex Warner said just there,
00:07:37.520 doesn't really cover all the bases.
00:07:39.080 He misses out big chunks or just skates over certain things, doesn't mention at all certain relatively big things.
00:07:46.240 So we will be moving on from exclusively using Plutarch.
00:07:49.900 But as I said, once again, for today, it's Plutarch only.
00:07:53.580 So let's jump right in.
00:07:55.760 Plutarch says this, quote,
00:07:57.300 After Sulla had seized power, he wanted to make Caesar divorce his wife, Cornelia, the daughter of Sinna,
00:08:02.720 who had previously held the entire government in his hands.
00:08:06.240 So there you go.
00:08:06.740 Caesar was closely aligned with the Sinna government, the Sinna regime, which is Marius.
00:08:12.700 So Sulla's complete enemy.
00:08:14.400 Caesar was lucky not to be prescribed.
00:08:18.000 Well, we'll get into exactly the details of that.
00:08:20.040 He was lucky not to be murdered out of hand by Sulla. 0.82
00:08:22.780 Very, very lucky.
00:08:23.880 I mean, it's remarkable.
00:08:25.660 Plutarch goes on.
00:08:26.780 But he, Sulla, could not persuade Caesar to do this, to divorce his wife,
00:08:31.440 either by promises or by intimidation.
00:08:33.860 And so he confiscated her dowry.
00:08:36.140 The reason for Caesar's hatred of Sulla was his friendship to Marius.
00:08:39.980 Julia, a sister of Caesar's father, was the wife of the elder Marius
00:08:43.560 and the mother of Marius the Younger, who was therefore Caesar's cousin.
00:08:48.120 At the beginning, when so many people were being killed, and there was so much to do,
00:08:52.980 Caesar was overlooked by Sulla.
00:08:54.780 But instead of being content with this, he presented himself to the people as a candidate
00:08:59.120 for a priesthood, though he was still only a mere boy.
00:09:02.780 Sulla, without openly objecting, took measures to see that he was not elected
00:09:07.040 and discussed the question of whether or not to have him put to death.
00:09:10.840 So Caesar's life hanging in the balance there, hanging by a thread.
00:09:14.840 A real sword of Damocles was over him.
00:09:17.140 When some of his advisors said that there was no point in killing a boy like him,
00:09:21.560 Sulla replied that they must be lacking in intelligence
00:09:24.100 if they did not see that in this boy there were many Mariuses. 0.94
00:09:27.680 This remark was reported to Caesar, and for some time he went into hiding,
00:09:32.960 wandering from place to place in the Sabine country.
00:09:36.520 In the end, he became ill, and while he was going from one house to another at night,
00:09:40.920 he fell into the hands of some of Sulla's soldiers who were searching the district
00:09:45.320 and arresting those who were in hiding there.
00:09:48.320 With a bribe of two talents, Caesar persuaded their leader, Cornelius, to let him go,
00:09:53.720 and then went immediately to the sea and sailed to King Nicomedes in Bithynia.
00:09:58.940 He stayed for a short time with the king, and then on his voyage back was captured near the island
00:10:03.440 of Pharmacusa by some of the pirates, who even at that time controlled the seas
00:10:08.380 with their large fleets of ships and innumerable smaller craft.
00:10:12.920 End quote.
00:10:13.520 One thing to say there, Plutarch doesn't tell us, doesn't mention,
00:10:17.240 is that there were persistent rumors that the king of Bithynia bedded Julius Caesar.
00:10:23.720 He made Julius Caesar his catamite, if you like.
00:10:26.740 They slept together, perhaps, and that was a rumor that dog Caesar the rest of his life,
00:10:32.600 all his detractors and enemies would throw that slur at him,
00:10:36.200 because in the Roman mores, it was okay to sleep with men,
00:10:39.500 as long as you were the dominant, as long as you were the top, if you like.
00:10:44.560 You could give it, but you couldn't receive it.
00:10:46.400 If you received, that was the most disgraceful, disgusting thing of all time, 0.98
00:10:52.000 and you may as well sort of kill yourself out of shame, but giving was absolutely fine. 0.99
00:10:58.380 There's nothing wrong with that. 0.98
00:10:59.660 In fact, there was something manly about it.
00:11:01.620 It's weird, completely different how we think about these things.
00:11:03.980 Anyway, she'll move on from that.
00:11:06.040 Plutarch continues.
00:11:06.920 First, when the pirates demanded a ransom of 20 talents, Caesar burst out laughing.
00:11:12.240 They did not know, he said, who it was that they had captured, and he volunteered to pay 50.
00:11:17.660 Then, when he had sent his followers to the various cities in order to raise the money
00:11:21.640 and was left with one friend and two servants among these Sicilians, i.e. pirates, 0.67
00:11:26.760 about the most bloodthirsty people in the world, he treated them so high-handedly
00:11:31.080 that whenever he went to sleep, he would send to them and tell them to stop talking.
00:11:36.040 For 38 days, with the greatest unconcern, he joined in all their games and exercises,
00:11:42.080 just as if he was their leader instead of their prisoner.
00:11:44.980 He also wrote poems and speeches which he read aloud to them, 0.74
00:11:48.600 and if they failed to admire his work, he would call them to their faces illiterate savages 0.94
00:11:53.320 and would often laughingly threaten to have them all hanged. 0.95
00:11:56.440 It's quite funny, actually, isn't it? It sheds light on Caesar's personality, all this stuff.
00:12:02.900 They were much taken with this, and attributed his freedom of speech
00:12:06.320 to a kind of simplicity in his character or boyish playfulness.
00:12:10.960 However, the ransom arrived from Miletus, and, as soon as he had paid it and been set free,
00:12:17.760 he immediately manned some ships and set sail from the harbour of Miletus against the pirates.
00:12:22.360 He found them still there, lying at anchor off the island, and he captured nearly all of them.
00:12:28.360 He took their property as spoils of war and put the men themselves into the prison of Pergamum.
00:12:34.020 He then went in person to Junius, the governor of Asia, thinking it proper that he,
00:12:39.360 as creator in charge of the province, should see to the punishment of the prisoners.
00:12:44.060 Junius, however, cast long eyes at the money, which came to a considerable sum,
00:12:48.720 and kept saying that he needed time to look into the case.
00:12:51.260 Caesar paid no further attention to him.
00:12:54.500 He went to Pergamum, took the pirates out of prison, and crucified the lot of them,
00:12:59.420 just as he had often told them that he would do when he was on the island,
00:13:03.200 and they imagined that he was joking."
00:13:05.300 So that whole segment is a very, very interesting snapshot of Caesar's personality, I think.
00:13:11.980 Because remember there, he's still very young.
00:13:14.740 He's only in his very, very early 20s at that point.
00:13:17.480 You know, you can imagine someone that's perhaps in their 50s and already war-bitten
00:13:23.360 and already world-weary and already developed a powerful will might behave like that.
00:13:31.380 Somebody that's cool, calm, and collected enough to joke and play around with the pirates
00:13:36.100 and tell them to be quiet when he's trying to get sleep and things. 1.00
00:13:38.480 Joke with them that he's going to capture them all and kill them all, 0.99
00:13:43.100 but then actually go ahead and do it, even when it really should be in the purview of the governor 0.99
00:13:48.000 and the creator, you just go ahead and do it on your own initiative.
00:13:52.100 That would make much more sense if you're a middle-aged person, or an older person at least.
00:13:56.060 But to do all that as a young man, well, it does, doesn't it?
00:14:00.560 It just speaks of a powerful character, a powerful sense of your own agency, I think.
00:14:06.700 Okay, Plutarch goes on.
00:14:08.640 Quote,
00:14:08.800 It is said that Caesar's natural ability as a political speaker was of the highest order
00:14:34.380 and that he took the greatest pains to cultivate it, so that in this field, the second place was
00:14:39.720 indisputably his, after Cicero, Plutarch means. He did not aim higher than this, since his main
00:14:45.820 efforts were directed towards becoming the first power in the state and the greatest soldier,
00:14:50.600 and so, because of the campaigns and the political activities by means of which he made himself
00:14:55.280 supreme, he never, as a speaker, reached the full height which nature intended him to reach,
00:15:00.440 and he himself, at a later time, in his reply to Cicero's essay on Cato, begs his readers
00:15:06.160 not to compare the plain style of a soldier with the eloquence of an orator, who was not
00:15:11.360 only naturally gifted, but had had plenty of time to cultivate his gifts.
00:15:15.540 To watch the full video, please become a premium member at lotusedus.com.
00:15:19.180 Thank you.
00:15:21.220 Thank you.
00:15:22.680 Thank you.
00:15:24.580 Thank you.
00:15:28.960 Thank you.
00:15:30.600 Thank you.
00:15:30.940 Thank you.
00:15:31.180 Thank you.
00:15:31.940 Thank you.
00:15:33.160 Thank you.
00:15:34.220 Thank you.
00:15:34.720 Thank you.
00:15:36.300 Thank you.
00:15:40.060 Thank you.
00:15:40.320 Thank you.
00:15:42.880 Thank you.
00:15:43.800 Thank you.
00:15:44.440 Thank you.
00:15:45.060 Thank you.
00:15:46.260 Thank you.
00:15:46.960 Thank you.
00:15:48.020 Thank you.
00:15:48.220 Thank you.
00:15:48.940 Thank you.