00:08:13.080And do you have any changes or corrections you want to make this morning?
00:08:18.200No, other than, as we've heard from so many witnesses, there were so many events occurring, and it was some time ago, but to the best of my recollection, this is accurate.
00:09:21.260And what happened was in the fall of 2021, my wife, who is a retired nurse, we've been married forever and have four kids, and she became very concerned about what she was seeing in terms of government policy, health policy, felt that things were badly going awry.
00:09:46.420and she did something she's never done before,
00:09:50.140where she encouraged me to get involved and take a case.
00:09:52.820She's normally the gatekeeper because I tend to take too many cases.
00:09:57.020And Ms. Chipiak, who I'd practiced law with in the past in other cases,
00:10:03.100approached me and asked me if I'd be willing to take a case at the Justice Center.
00:10:11.380They told me I could pick whichever case I would like,
00:10:14.380And I wanted to, I'd been studying the travel mandates and I thought they were ultra vires, the Aeronautics Act, and I wanted to, and obviously reaching charter.
00:10:24.060And so I agreed to lead that case with former Premier Brian Peckford as our lead applicant.
00:10:40.640We got struck not last Thursday, the Thursday before, while I was here.
00:10:49.860And then that led to on the 1st of February, I had a legal team meeting set up,
00:11:00.640noticed some extra people in the Zoom room and let them in.
00:11:06.040And I was informed by one of the lawyers who I'd met for the first time on that Zoom call that the truckers in Ottawa that morning had reached out to the Justice Centre and asked the Justice Centre if they would provide legal support.
00:11:25.840uh the lawyers on the call told me that they'd assembled the team and they'd asked me if i would
00:11:33.320come to ottawa the next morning and lead that team and i agreed you were able to clear your
00:11:40.320schedule that quickly well i got uh spousal consent very quickly so that helped tremendously
00:17:00.320why you were being flown on a private aircraft?
00:17:03.420because at that time the understanding of the interim orders under the Aeronautics Act
00:17:12.440is that it did not extend to private charter aircraft
00:17:16.540and some of the passengers on that aircraft were unvaccinated.
00:17:21.960So that was a way for us to get to Ottawa quickly under the interim order.
00:17:27.340and uh did you know at the time uh who was uh paying for the aircraft um there was
00:17:37.340uh there was confusion about that in the same way that there was confusion about
00:17:44.320there was two other groups that had allegedly made arrangements for us to have hotel rooms
00:17:49.760when we arrived and so uh the justice center made up made a backup plan to have a third hotel ready
00:17:56.740And that's the one we ended up using. As we were boarding the plane, whoever was supposedly going to be paying for this charter turned out they weren't going to pay for the charter.
00:18:09.380And the Justice Centre made the decision to send us anyway, and if necessary, they would pay for the charter if whoever was going, who had originally said they were going to pay for it, didn't.
00:18:19.620And do you know who ultimately paid for the charter?
00:18:22.080I believe it was all, and I'm not certain about this, but I believe it was paid from funds donated through Chris Guerra's Adopt-a-Trucker.
00:18:37.320Now, you heard yesterday Ms. Belton's evidence about a conversation she had with you regarding disclosure of this flight.
00:18:52.080Disclosure of sorry. Information about this flight.
00:18:56.560OK. I believe she said she was told not to say anything about it.
00:19:02.740No, that's not correct. What what what do you have to say about that?
00:19:06.360I had no discussion with Miss Belton about this flight. I had no concerns about the flight.
00:19:10.880I'm double vaccinated. It wouldn't matter what aircraft I was on.
00:19:14.660OK. Now, I'd like to just pause here for a moment.
00:19:18.520I know that at this point you're acting as a lawyer and to the extent that any of my questions would require you to disclose privilege information where privilege has not been waived, would you tell me and not answer?
00:19:35.860I will. And just so everyone's clear, I do. In July, my clients instructed me to make myself, to consider making myself available as a witness and granted a waiver with respect to these matters, this proceeding.
00:19:53.960And we've subsequently confirmed it in writing to avoid any confusion that I am here today with a waiver from my clients with respect to solicitor client privilege.
00:20:02.600And when you say your clients, who did you include in that?
00:26:21.780There were supplies stacked and piled everywhere.
00:26:26.780And the tension was, I could really feel the tension.
00:26:31.060So can we come to the meeting that you had with your prospective, at that time, prospective clients?
00:26:40.540So you said you, did you finalize your retainer at that point?
00:26:44.920Yes. Andre Muirmer had the paperwork and had them signed.
00:26:52.760And did the nature of your retainer differ from what you told us about what your understanding was about it?
00:27:01.060Well, and I should clarify one thing, that the way the Justice Centre operated at that time, the retainer has their name on it, the Justice Centre, as the legal provider.
00:27:42.920We had just had, you know, landing and taking off several times,
00:27:48.560and a small aircraft is a little bit hard on the body.
00:27:50.560And not to mention, I'm sure all of the people on our team were the same.
00:27:56.460This happened so fast, we had very, very little sleep.
00:28:00.720We could tell the fatigue, and that was when I first was informed that Tamara was aware that some group was calling a press conference for the next day, and they wanted her to speak.
00:28:15.640and I immediately started asking questions about, okay, who's called the press conference,
00:28:25.220what's its purpose, who all speaking, was there a media advisory?
00:28:31.780She didn't know, you know, this is not her world.
00:28:35.620I've dealt with high-profile cases and communication specialists extensively,
00:28:40.800so she didn't even know what a media advisory was.
00:28:43.340okay and um i understand that you uh wrote out her remarks for her but what happened was
00:28:53.720i had no intention of being in the media i was there to not be in the media but to provide
00:29:00.200guidance and even in that first meeting i started hearing these different groups names
00:29:08.060and I was okay well who is this group and why are they here and what this other group it was
00:29:14.540it was the chessboard was starting to the fog was starting to lift and I was sort of oh boy
00:29:20.980this is going to get complicated um the major concern I had was two things Tamara made it
00:29:32.900clear to me that she did not feel comfortable appreciate she's absolutely exhausted uh they
00:29:39.760all were i could see the fatigue um and she didn't feel comfortable being exposed to a long format
00:29:50.120uh press conference where every media person could come at her basically and
00:29:57.580And so I was already giving some thought as to how we could possibly restructure the press conference
00:30:05.660to make it more orderly and make it more effective in conveying some information
00:30:10.720that I thought the public and the world wanted to hear.
00:30:14.760So, and did you prepare her remarks for her?
00:30:18.600So the next morning, my legal team was adamant that I should take a more active role in the press conference.
00:30:35.220When we got from our hotel, which was out of the downtown, to the ARC and went into one of the logistics rooms on the main floor, it's a big boardroom.
00:30:48.600I got more information about the plan for the press conference,
00:30:55.100and that was it was going to include a number of medical doctors.
00:31:00.040My question was just whether you prepared her remarks, Tamara Litch's remarks for her.
00:31:07.140There was Take Back Our Freedoms had an external communication consulting firm
00:31:15.060um a number of us including tamara leach reviewed it did not like the messaging so
00:31:23.900miss chipiak and another individual a medical doctor rewrote it um it still wasn't in miss
00:31:34.060leach's voice so i assisted miss leach in revising that statement and it was finalized in very short
00:31:41.620order because we only had less than an hour and then she proceeded to the press conference to
00:31:46.940deliver it and mr clerk can i ask you to to bring up jcf five zeros one five five it's a
00:31:56.480video and i'd just like to play one minute from that good afternoon
00:32:04.960thank you for coming my name is keith wilson i'm a lawyer with the justice center for
00:32:16.040constitutional freedoms as some of you may know there was an announcement earlier today
00:32:20.300that the justice center and a team of lawyers are here on the ground in ottawa to assist the
00:32:26.540truckers and the freedom convoy 2022 with whatever legal needs they might have
00:32:33.400What we're going to do today in this brief press conference is you're going to hear from Tamara Leach, who we all know is the spark that lit this fire and the leader of this organization.
00:32:48.360You're also going to hear from Joanie Peltier, who is going to summarize in French what Tamara says.
00:32:57.120Can I ask you to stop it there, please?
00:33:00.660You say that Ms. Leach was the spark that lit this fire.
00:33:15.620And how did your brain figure that out?
00:33:18.760Well, I observed what was happening, and I noticed that, this is again prior to me being engaged, that she seemed to be the organic leader.
00:33:31.860She was the one that was doing the Facebook Lives and other videos.
00:33:36.960She was the one who was sending out the message, and she seemed to have the personality of a natural leader that inspired others to get behind her.
00:33:46.920Thank you. Now, can you bring up, Mr. Clerk, HRF 40139? And this is a letter to GoFundMe that I think
00:36:40.860So I don't know exactly whether that arose in the very first draft
00:36:45.260or whether that was something that some of the leaders in Ottawa had added
00:36:51.640or whether that was something that the Finance Committee wanted added.
00:36:56.540Can you just scroll up a little more, please?
00:36:59.160You note in the second bolded paragraphs that the intention is not to reimburse those for those committing unlawful acts or criminal acts.
00:37:12.400And you say the convoy has been clear it only supports peaceful assembly.
00:37:18.420At this point in time, I take it you were aware that there were some officials that were suggesting that some of the conduct going on was unlawful?
00:39:10.400I'm not seeing it right now, but he does say that he the JCCF lawyers and specifically
00:39:28.560you were trying to take over the meeting and assert themselves as the spokespeople on the
00:39:34.280financial side of the convoy do you remember reading that um i don't remember reading that
00:39:41.720right there and where it says mr wilson trying to take over the meeting all i want to know is
00:39:48.840whether you want to respond to that well i mean what does that mean when i i led the meeting um
00:39:56.600someone needs to lead a meeting uh from when you have two parties uh mr ero spoke other lawyers
00:40:03.880spoke. Mr. Eros spoke extensively in explaining to the GoFundMe executives and their legal team
00:40:12.520because we was, I would estimate by memory, there was 10 to 12 people from GoFundMe on the other
00:40:19.200side of the conference call. This was a call, not a Zoom. Yeah. And you mentioned, sorry. And
00:40:26.080And we relied heavily, at least our side, on Mr. Eros explaining the financial controls and who he was and his background in banking and as a CPA and his role as treasurer.
00:43:24.480as various people would demand private meetings or, you know, play games and say we weren't allowed to use the boardroom
00:43:34.820because it was their boardroom, those sorts of things, that she was under pressure from a lot of these different groups for the reasons I've given.
00:43:45.740Okay, and coming back to take back our freedoms, am I correct that Mr. Peckford was the chairman of that organization?
00:43:58.920Yeah, and it's interesting because he's more of a symbolic chairman.
00:44:02.980In all of my discussions with the Honorable Brian Peckford, I would speak with him not every evening,
00:44:14.060but you know maybe every second or third evening my telephone logs confirm that that i've tendered
00:44:20.220in evidence and i was looking for guidance from him he was uh you know he's an elder statesman
00:44:26.220he's been through a lot he's one of our founding fathers of our our charter of rights and freedoms
00:44:31.320very seasoned politician but not a lawyer and so at no time did we ever have any discussion
00:44:38.360around take back our freedoms was did I feel he was speaking on their behalf
00:44:45.960him and I become somewhat close through my work on his federal travel mandate charter challenge
00:44:52.400in federal court and I was using him as a resource and someone to to run ideas past and get guidance
00:45:01.360from. And am I correct that you were aware that at least Mr. Eros had some concern that if there
00:45:08.800were concerns about take back our freedoms and you were acting on behalf of Mr. Peckford in that
00:45:19.040other litigation that you were in a conflict of interest position? That was never raised at any
00:45:24.400time. I don't feel I was in a conflict because at no time did Mr. Peckford ever ask of anything of
00:45:32.600me. I was the only one who asked of things from him. And the concerns that you're referring to
00:45:49.400our concerns that were never aired at any time during Ottawa by Mr. Eros, and only some months
00:45:56.860later after the Ottawa protest had concluded. Okay, thank you. And just to shift a little bit
00:46:04.700here, you were staying at the Art Hotel? No. Where were you staying? At a Best Western,
00:46:14.420I believe it was about a 20-minute drive towards the east.
00:46:22.000So you arrived there, excuse me, on February.
00:50:03.280And what I, you know, the first thing that's obvious about it is a memorandum of understanding in its simplest legal concept requires all parties to it to sign.
00:50:16.900And it was evident that the signature lines on the last page were not going to be signed by the governor general nor someone from the Senate.
00:50:25.980And in any event, I would explain, when I was asked by the board to brief them on it, I explained, and I apologize for my voice, I'm recovering from a cold.
00:50:42.760That I explained that there's only two ways that governments change under our parliamentary system.
00:50:49.840The first is when the Prime Minister contacts the Governor-General and dissolves Parliament and asks that the writ be dropped.
00:50:59.580The second, through parliamentary tradition, is where a bill is identified as a confidence vote and Parliament votes to defeat the bill.
00:51:13.480In that second instance, the Prime Minister would similarly contact the Governor-General.
00:51:18.640This idea that a certain number of people could sign a document and that would somehow compel or incentivize and lead to a change in government, I explained consistently and repeatedly, is legal nonsense.
00:51:35.080And you knew that, did you know at the time that almost somewhere around 300,000 people had signed on to a petition regarding that?
00:51:47.800I didn't know the number. I knew that it pre-existed the convoy. I knew that Canada Unity pre-existed the convoy as a group by at least a year or two, that it was not a creation of the convoy. It was one of these hanger-ons.
00:52:03.980So I take it you were surprised that so many people were taking it seriously. Is that fair to say?
00:52:12.080I am very surprised that this is not the first time I've run into this.
00:52:18.420I've had to litigate opposite the sovereign citizen folks and quoting admiralty law and think that if they present a flag in a certain way in a court, the judge loses jurisdiction.
00:52:31.740I've had to encounter this many, many times in my career.
00:52:35.000So I was just like, here's another one.
00:52:36.820Okay, now, on February 4th, I understand you were served with a statement of claim and an injunction motion by Mr. Champ?
00:53:22.980What we did was we received it at approximately 4 o'clock.
00:53:33.660That was at the same time that we also received notification publicly that GoFundMe had determined that the fundraiser violated their terms of service
00:53:46.580and that they were stopping it and either going to send the money to some other group or refund it.
00:56:25.080And was that consistent with your view?
00:56:28.740Yeah, and we had, to the extent we had the opportunity, because as you can appreciate,
00:56:34.440it was a very, very fast-moving, chaotic environment with so many either interpersonal issues arising
00:56:40.080between the players or logistical issues or whatever.
00:56:45.140But we did have occasion when we were,
00:56:48.160Ms. Chippick and I were leaving our hotel.
00:56:50.180We worked, it must have been the second,
00:56:52.560it must have been the Monday when we were in court
00:56:55.160because we ran those from our hotel outside of downtown.
00:56:59.380And we heard Ms. Deans in an interview on CBC's As It Happens.
00:57:06.560And her language was deeply troubling.
00:57:10.080And that combined with Mr. Mirazzo expressing concerns about the change in tone from chiefs slowly, it heightened the urgency of trying to find a way to open up dialogue.
00:57:27.040And if you look at my phone records, you'll see that my first attempt to bring in Mr. French occurred actually that weekend.
00:57:37.340Okay, and what was your strategy as a result of this?
00:57:55.160Well, in my past, I've been involved in two international scope crises.
00:58:02.780The first was the 2003 Mad Cow disease outbreak in Alberta, where I was representing a government agency.
00:58:13.300And the second was in 2009 H1N1, where I represented the people who were patient zero for the Zutonic transmutation.
00:58:24.400And so I've been in an emergency operation centers of government on two major incidences,
00:58:30.340and I've seen the chaos that occurs in there.
00:58:34.040And, you know, I know the importance of dialogue and communication,
00:58:38.500and I sense the danger of the parties not talking, even if it's back-channel.
00:58:44.420So I had a strong desire to open up back-channel communications
00:58:49.400so we could bring the temperature down, start to see if there's ways to resolve this,
00:58:53.700de-escalate this, wind this thing down.
00:58:55.820So that was a heavy focus of mine at all times.
00:58:59.140Okay, and I take it that you contacted Mr. Peckford and asked him if he had any contacts that might help?
01:08:51.480You indicate in your statement that at some point you left the intersection
01:08:59.520and Ms. Chipiak and Mr. Morazo remained to talk to the protesters.
01:09:06.040Yeah, we decided, and this is the way things worked, particularly with the people that were there involved in the protest, is if something needed to be done, you did it right there and then.
01:09:20.360So the decision, we had a discussion, and it was Eva and Tom were like, well, why don't we try and move this intersection right now?
01:09:29.660So I said, all right, I'll go back to the Sheridan.
01:09:33.180And the reason that we agreed that I would go is because we had so little to negotiate with in terms of tools and tactics with the protesters.
01:09:46.640Because I had been on the stage at the press conference the week previous, I was recognized as the trucker's convoy lawyer.
01:09:57.820So the idea was that if they made significant progress but needed just something more
01:10:03.440to get the truckers to agree to clear this intersection,
01:10:07.120that they would say, well, we're going to have to have Keith come,
01:10:10.340and then I would come and try and use whatever influence I may have.
01:15:11.300And I take it that February 9th, there were some discussions with the OPS PLT officers and that led to February 10th, where you returned to Rideau and Sussex to try again.
01:15:34.660Yeah, on the 9th, PLT's about 4.45, 4.40 p.m. contacted me through Eva Chipiak.
01:15:48.380That was the protocol we had is that if they needed to get me urgently, they would call her because she was always at my side.
01:15:57.400And they came over to a meeting in the main floor of the Sheridan.
01:16:02.180It was an intense meeting, but we briefed the board that evening and Tamara Leach requested that all of the road captains, all legal, the board members all assemble at Sussex, Arito and Sussex the next morning prior to 10 a.m.
01:16:26.940in an effort, an all-out effort, to use their persuasive skills.
01:16:34.360We had an initial success where there was a load-safe truck
01:19:55.220And because we were anticipating moving the trucks up past the war memorial to Wellington, we needed, the police were obviously handling this part of it, more police to create a safety corridor so that no one got run over.
01:20:15.900And as the one vehicle backed up and its alarm was very loud, people started to rush in.
01:20:25.220tamara had been removing from the barricades the signs no one out the police were smart not to go
01:20:31.620and start taking signs down it was tamara she was recognized so she would place the signs over on
01:20:36.260another railing by the senate to get the barricades ready to be removed safely without
01:20:41.940controversy hopefully just as the equipment was going people rushed behind the tow truck because
01:20:48.820they seemed to think that the police were about to do something bad to the truckers i was talking
01:20:54.260to them Tamara was individually talking to groups of people it's okay this is a cooperative move
01:20:59.440we're trying to clear this intersection the truckers want to move up to Wellington and then
01:21:03.860people would sit on a barricade Tamara would go talk to them they'd apologize get off the
01:21:11.000barricade she turned around and they were on another different people were on another barricade
01:21:15.000and then the police were further in Tamara and I were trying to talk to as many people as we could
01:21:21.180to explain that it was okay this is a cooperative move we're just trying to clear an intersection
01:21:27.020and then um the people just swarmed in and that's where the video plays okay can you pull up these
01:21:35.420hrf four zeros one five eight seven and i'm in the orange um
01:21:43.340high visibility coat which they jokingly called my trucker camo
01:21:51.180The truth is strong and free, from far and wide, O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
01:24:42.960But the Canadians they met along the way,
01:24:45.960and the stories and the heartache that they heard,
01:24:49.380And the trust and plea that they heard from those people, many of the truckers I talked to felt this obligation to stay as long as they could, but they also needed a way to leave gracefully and respectfully.
01:25:05.520And one of the things we recognized was that if 75% of the vehicles were going to be given an opportunity to leave
01:25:13.960and go either to Embram or Armprior, that some would actually use it as an opportunity to go home and do so respectfully.
01:25:22.700So that was an important part of the plan.
01:25:24.660And that's what you refer to in your statement as an exit strategy.
01:28:10.400You say in that email from February 12th, 347,
01:28:16.860You indicate that the drafting committee had looked into a way to draft a document that would describe the Freedom Convoys' overall demands of all governments and a way forward strategy.
01:28:37.240And so they were working on the broader document for review by the board tomorrow,
01:28:45.260but you're circulating a draft now as a, and it was intended to be a communication
01:28:55.520for the captains and truckers regarding the deal with the mayor.
01:29:01.500And then you say on the towards the end of that line after Wellington and Elgin, while at the same time taking away the excuse that Trudeau wants to unleash the police goons and seize trucks.
01:29:19.400Remember, we are trying to block Trudeau from having the justification to cause the police to use the new emergency powers against the truckers and allow the truckers to stay here in Ottawa for as long as it takes, etc.
01:29:38.200Now, this is February 12th. At that point in time, did you anticipate use of the emergency sign?
01:30:00.140Commissioner, I'd just like to just make a note of the record or perhaps a small objection.
01:30:04.480Ms. Belton testified yesterday that on the mayor's deal, and it was her understanding that it was all completely fake news, I think is the terminology she used.
01:30:13.480she used and as i understand it mr wilson is now testifying that this deal was sent to ms belton
01:30:21.080as one of the convoy organizers and that they all agreed to it i just note in fairness to
01:30:25.480the witness i don't think that was put to her by the commission nor uh the convoy organizers or
01:30:30.680freedom corp so i mean we're all working very hard herculean and we're missing lots of things at
01:30:37.480times just because of the pace but i think this is a rather important point that it's unfortunate
01:30:41.160We didn't hear from Ms. Belton on that issue.
01:30:46.020I think at this stage, let's hear the evidence,
01:30:50.120and maybe that's a point that can be made later.
01:30:52.640But I'm sorry, you want to also involve yourself in this?
01:31:24.460And this is the Freedom Manifest that was, I think there were, you said there were about 800 copies made up and distributed to the truckers?
01:31:51.980That's correct. About 850 copies were printed.
01:31:55.380We decided to go old school Gutenberg, you know, printed press.
01:32:00.340In fact, I took a little video and had forwarded it to Dean French
01:32:04.140so that he could see that progress was being made on the efforts
01:32:08.820and the plan to get the information out to the truckers.
01:32:13.280Chris Barber, Tamara, and others went out onto the streets
01:32:17.940and met with truckers, and the road captains handed these out.
01:32:23.220And Tamara even went out to Armpriar and Embram to inspect them
01:32:29.460to make sure that they had sufficient capacity to take all the 75% of the vehicles
01:32:34.800and to meet with the owners of those lands to make sure they were comfortable
01:32:38.460with that many vehicles showing up in the coming days.
01:32:42.560Okay, and I'm not going to ask they be pulled up now,
01:32:46.960but just for the record we then had the exchange of letters between the mayor and Ms. Leach which
01:32:54.480we've seen the mayor's letter is HRF 401264 and the and Ms. Leach's letter is HRF 401275
01:33:07.840and can I now ask to bring up HRF four zeros one three two three
01:33:22.720and this is a document dated February 17 2022 open letter to our premiers and who are elected
01:33:43.820and appointed officials it's a long letter but I take it that the idea of this was still part
01:33:51.840of the exit strategy to do something to make contact with government officials so that people
01:33:58.900could be satisfied that you'd done all you could do at that to that point is that fair yeah it is
01:34:05.040and we I think what we were hoping would happen is that the that the success that we felt we could
01:34:11.820achieve with the arrangement and the agreement with the mayor and because if it was successful
01:34:19.580we were going to have had the downtown cleared out by the Wednesday but for Wellington up to the
01:34:25.840Sir John A and you know a defined area which they actually in the logistics meeting shorted up
01:34:32.240because of the issues about the hospital and so on access and the truckers agreed to make it even a
01:34:37.020smaller area was that it would focus the focus the protest now on the federal government and then
01:34:43.600the federal government would be encouraged by the fact that the truckers proved to be honest
01:34:48.960brokers and that would lead to a meeting with some federal ministers there was not a strong
01:34:55.080desire to have a meeting with the prime minister it was more with the ministers
01:34:58.480and that we could agree on a process of of formally presenting briefs and information
01:35:07.320and scientific information to support and comparative information because canada was
01:35:12.400anomaly at this time in terms of our mandates the other g7 countries weren't doing these things
01:35:16.680to try and persuade the government to review its policies.
01:35:23.000And then we don't have to bring it up, but in your statement, page 10 and 11,
01:35:30.500you outline your understanding of what happened in terms of the movement of the trucks outside
01:35:38.840from the residential area, either to leave or up to Wellington, correct?
01:35:44.100Yeah, well, I was directly involved, and on the Monday, and my text messages and my phone logs confirm it, my text messages with Sergeant Lee, with the Mayor's Chief of Staff, and with the City Manager, the reports I was getting from the ground were that the police were not in a position.
01:36:07.720They were getting blocked at different phases by the police.
01:36:31.120We now see all the back communications and infighting that was going on.
01:36:34.400We didn't know that at the time, obviously.
01:36:36.100and then again on the wednesday um and and the other thing is we realized when we discussed it
01:36:43.960and i listened to the road captains and to the chris barbers is they felt that once the big
01:36:50.660trucks moved there would be stragglers but they wouldn't want to be alone and that they would
01:36:56.700either leave or they may go and infill a little bit but so we recognized that um and there was
01:37:04.240also discussion that if and this is controversial but there is also discussion that if we get down
01:37:12.420to a few areas where everybody else has either gone up to wellington or gone out to the base
01:37:18.140camps or gone home and we have a few holdouts that freedom corp would no longer provide any
01:37:26.380supplies fuel or materials to those areas to incentivize them to follow the lead of everyone
01:37:35.700else who was leaving downtown thank you i i see i've gone up for my hour and a half commissioner
01:37:44.960i have two more points to deal with if i could sure thank you um hrf four zeros one two nine
01:37:55.300This is a letter that you sent to Chief Bell stating your view on the powers that the police were given under the emergency act.
01:38:18.320And you took issue with whether there was the power to prevent peaceful protesters from coming into Ottawa to protest.
01:38:32.140Correct. And just to clarify, the letter is signed by Ms. Chipiak, but I did review the letter.
01:38:39.560and we also had at least four or five other lawyers from the Justice Centre
01:38:46.620reviewing the same statutory regulatory instruments
01:38:49.980and we had all reached the same conclusion
01:38:53.300that the description that the government officials and the police were using
01:38:58.440to describe the measures was not even close to what the emergency proclamation actually said
01:39:05.940And that as long as you are not seeking to interfere with international trade, disrupt or interfere with critical infrastructure or engage in serious acts of violence against persons, you continue to have the right of political advocacy, protest and dissent.
01:39:24.140And so the labeling by the police chief and others that any Canadian citizen was no longer allowed to walk in downtown Ottawa or hold a sign in front of their parliament was not legally accurate and was against the Charter.
01:39:45.300And I think we've seen the video that's, and you don't have to bring it up,
01:39:50.400but HRF 50274 that you did with Mr. Barber to essentially giving that opinion
01:40:01.580and telling whoever saw the video that they could and should come to Ottawa
01:40:31.580And in making that TikTok video, was it your understanding that there was about to be an enforcement initiative by the police to remove people from the red zone?
01:40:52.600I didn't know for sure. What I did know is that there was numerous times where information would come into the operations center from various police sources that a raid was imminent, and it happened many times.
01:41:07.220And then the raids either did occur in part, such as Coventry or other evenings where they would go and take firewood and fuel or food from one of the blocks.
01:41:20.500But it did appear from the buildup we were seeing on the ground, it was obvious.
01:41:26.820And the information we had about the number of, I don't know, there's some Lansdowne Park or someplace had been set up as a processing center.
01:41:35.360So it seemed that there was a shift occurring.
01:41:37.220And did you have a concern about the fact that if that was going to happen, you were suggesting to people to come back into the red zone and potentially be in danger when the enforcement action started?
01:41:58.000No, because I'm a Canadian and I never imagined that our government, our federal government, would use that level of force against non-violent, peaceful Canadians.
01:44:30.780And this was a press release February 17, 2022 from the Freedom Convoy indicating that
01:44:51.000they did not support any of the comments being made by Mr. King.
01:44:59.020I may have asked you this, but had you met Mr. King?
01:45:03.840I knew of Mr. King over a year prior to going to Ottawa.
01:45:10.220He had a court matter in Red Deer where he was all over social media saying that he's found this magic recipe for defeating all government laws.
01:45:20.860And I researched it, read the court's decision, and it was clear he was misunderstanding how the law works.
01:45:25.940So I knew of him from then, and I knew that he was a very loud voice.
01:45:32.020When I found out that he was here, I told the clients that I wasn't prepared to be in the same room with him.
01:45:39.200There was one instance where he was brought into a room, and I immediately requested that he leave.
01:45:44.380The reason was that I had heard of his language at times, and maybe it was unfair to him.
01:45:53.680Maybe I was duped by the media. I don't know.
01:45:56.280But there was there was innuendo of violence and it was completely unacceptable to me.
01:46:02.680But more importantly, Miss Leach, because the legacy media was repeating it so many times and it was needing to be explained so many times.
01:46:13.600The board made the decision to issue this press release.
01:46:17.580This is the only press release of this nature that was issued where they identified a person and made it clear that they did not agree with, as it says, he does not speak for us.
01:46:31.220We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others.
01:51:12.040the time for that is is over this controlled opposition thing but
01:51:21.380if you want my opinion on it from everything i have seen especially in the last three or four days
01:51:28.980From government documents, it shows that the government wanted to keep the fringe element within the freedom convoy and the freedom movement.
01:51:39.500So not just on the ground, but in the social media sphere as well.
01:51:46.920So when we hear all kinds of way out ideas about how we can handle the government, please know the government wants that.
02:08:15.620media assessment is what does this change what impact does it have on the rights of the people
02:08:22.280on the ground and we concluded that it was largely benign okay what i'm saying is that those words
02:08:28.520refer to the new emergencies power in the present tense the declaration from the federal government
02:08:35.380came on the 14th it was two days before well i can i can help you by telling you what was in my mind
02:08:45.020And our concern was, I believe that it was early in the previous week, by early I mean the Tuesday, and if not Tuesday, the Wednesday for certain, that we started hearing rumours that the federal government was contemplating invoking the Federal Emergencies Act.
02:09:07.760So all of the references in any of the communications that you have at that time would be, unless there's one that's more specific, about that.
02:09:20.200We weren't concerned about either the civic one nor the provincial one.
02:09:26.500Can you point me to one document which documents what you're just telling us now?
02:09:32.100um well first of all this was not a normal file right but you've managed to pay for this
02:09:41.040sorry okay finish my answer please sir uh this was not a normal file you did not i did not have
02:09:47.200opportunity to document things um and um i'm telling you under oath that at no time was the
02:09:58.600either the Ottawa State of Emergency Declaration nor the Ontario State of
02:10:04.060Declaration a matter of concern for me and the other lawyers with me we were
02:10:12.480very concerned about the potential and the rumors we were hearing for the
02:10:17.300federal government to invoke the Federal Emergencies Act who told you the federal
02:10:21.420government was considering using the Emergencies Act who told you that I can't
02:10:27.880remember the specific individual but i do remember the source that they relayed and they advised that
02:10:35.640they had heard from some mps that there was active discussion over at the parliament about um uh the
02:10:44.200prime minister considering using the emergencies act and it was so mps some mps had shared with
02:10:52.040people involved in the convoy and they reported that to me do you have any document you can refer
02:10:57.160this commission to today i might but i can't recall any offhand and you can't you can't recall
02:11:03.240any offhand you can't recall a description of the document or anything like that right now
02:11:08.120uh no okay that's correct all right i'd like to continue with uh just confirming some statements
02:11:14.760from your witness summary um you'd agree that there was a broad array of groups that were part
02:11:22.600of this convoy correct and you subdivided them into three groups those who came to support the
02:11:31.880movement those who came to take it over and those who came to seek a piece of the 10 million dollars
02:11:40.600that was my assessment uh uh probably i reached that conclusion
02:11:48.520in my mind within i would say three to five days of being here i'd had sufficient interactions
02:11:54.940and repeated interactions with different individuals from different groups that that
02:11:58.160was the pattern that i felt was present and you also have said that the convoy attracted a lot
02:12:05.360of strange people yeah and in that in those people you mentioned the coven of witches
02:12:11.120that's what they called themselves and they were doing weird seance things and burning things in
02:12:16.900lobby and and uh conspiracy groups like digital yeah going on yes yeah you bet yeah so it not
02:12:27.460only consisted of a broad array of groups but it attracted other strange groups that
02:12:33.780at least as you've described them correct like moths to a flame
02:12:41.220so you'd agree that some of these individuals we've heard a little bit already may have tried
02:12:46.100to hijack the message or even try and control perhaps parts of the convoy group is that correct
02:12:55.620yes and it was a constant effort by Miss Leach Mr. Barber and others to fend them off so to speak
02:13:05.220and I do recall reading documents in the record where CSIS and the RCMP had also intercepted
02:13:12.980communications and reached the same conclusion that there was a concerted effort by the mainstream
02:13:19.060group to resist these hangers-ons. Mr. Barber testified yesterday that he could not control
02:13:26.920truckers generally. They are very independently minded and certainly not the groups that were
02:13:33.640coming would you agree with that that's correct yes i would agree
02:13:39.960and there's in a mr eros's interview summary um that you've been taken to a
02:13:48.120little bit a reference to at least a quote that
02:13:52.600you supposedly mentioned concerning um taking back our freedoms
02:13:57.720group yes did you did you refer to them as bad actors um i don't think i would have referred
02:14:06.600to no i don't know that i would have referred to them as bad actors okay he says you did and and
02:14:12.920uh and bad app actors and manipulators he says i would have characterized without a doubt some
02:14:20.120of the individuals involved with that group as being manipulative 100 so are even within your
02:14:26.920group the convoy group and the the leadership that you've mentioned uh there were would you
02:14:33.400say sort of divisions or factions i would say absolutely it was an incredibly diverse uh
02:14:41.320dynamic remember that if you walked into the operations center at any given moment and said
02:14:46.840how many people in this room knew one another before january 15th and the only two people would
02:14:52.600put up their hands would be chris gara and chad heroes these people all came together for the
02:14:56.440first time all right and you mentioned the negotiations with the city of ottawa in the
02:15:02.520days leading up to february 14th yes to move the trucks out of residential neighborhoods to take
02:15:09.400at least a bit of a valve to some of the uh the temperature that had been raised with all the
02:15:15.640complaints uh and issues that arose from that that's correct yeah and the tensions
02:15:22.360with the police and the political tensions it was it was time to to de-escalate and uh reduce the
02:15:30.280footprint and relieve the pressure but that was never intended to rid uh the city core of the
02:15:37.640gridlock of 30 ton trucks or resolve the grievances of all the various protesting groups there was no
02:15:44.840gridlock i've described how i was able to travel freely well let's just say you're not saying that
02:15:49.720it was empty of uh 30 ton trucks sitting in front of wellington no the the idea was to concentrate
02:15:58.360and this was discussed in the negotiations with the mayor the mayor's message that i received
02:16:04.200through mr french was that he recognized that the grievance i think it's even in his letter if i'm
02:16:08.280not mistaken that was with the federal government primarily was the triggering event the federal
02:16:12.840mandates that you've heard about but your your deal i just sorry sir i haven't finished and i'm
02:16:18.200just that was slowing down because i commissioners reminded me that i'm speaking too fast um so
02:16:27.720it was recognized that trucks would remain on wellington and to be clear there was no
02:16:36.760understanding that it would be a grant of immunity it was recognized that at any time
02:16:43.480after those trucks repositioned the police could come and move them out
02:16:48.040uh it was recognized that there would be an interference in the flow of traffic on
02:16:53.160wellington but i note because i was up there the other day it's blocked today this very moment by
02:17:00.040government barricades okay i i'm just getting to the point that the deal was never intended
02:17:06.040to resolve all these grievances and protests
02:17:10.360and to get rid of the trucks from the city core, correct?
02:17:15.080No, it was absolutely to remove the pressure
02:17:19.100on the downtown residents and businesses,
02:17:21.880focus the attention on the grievance with the federal government,
02:17:25.420build from the success of de-escalation and negotiation
02:17:29.780to incentivize and encourage the federal government
02:17:32.400to come to the table, open up a dialogue,
02:17:34.820and set a pretext for the truckers to go home how how does well would you be surprised that the
02:17:41.500mayor uh would say that the the deal was to just release some of the tension from the neighborhoods
02:17:49.900it did nothing to deal with the core issue of getting rid of the trucks in front of a wellington
02:17:56.440i don't know do you want me to repeat my answer a third time no i don't need i don't need that but
02:18:02.440i've got your answer so you don't agree that this was this deal was intended to uh resolve all all
02:18:11.320these uh issues and gridlock on wellington complex problems require complex solutions
02:18:21.160complex solutions require phasing so you had faith i had faith i had confidence in the goodwill of
02:18:29.720of the uh of uh look do we have an agreement a written agreement that said they would move
02:18:37.240i have been able to resolve at least more than 90 of all the litigation files i've been involved in
02:18:45.480by opening up dialogue between the parties and i remained optimistic that through applying those
02:18:52.040skills and those tactics that we could have had a peaceful resolution and a respectful
02:18:59.160canadian dialogue about important policy issues who who are you representing at the negotiations
02:19:05.320were you representing the leadership that you mentioned that the directors of that company
02:19:10.280the non-profit company the freedom 22 2022 and the president tamara leach and uh uh the vice
02:19:18.840president chris barber and the treasurer uh chad eros beyond those people who were who were your
02:19:28.120clients uh you've described them that's accurate so you were not acting on behalf of all of the
02:19:33.240truckers that's correct so you had faith uh i had faith and uh my faith uh uh in the same way i would
02:19:44.440have quit practicing losser a long time ago if i didn't have faith in the ability of of of people
02:19:49.720having civil and respectful discussions to resolve disputes but the objective of that agreement was
02:19:56.920to move 25% more trucks into the Wellington Street area so it doesn't do
02:20:02.860anything to relieve that congestion a fair but we've already established sir
02:20:08.740that the roads blocked today so if I'm not sure if your concern is about the
02:20:12.620presence of trucks and Canadians or whether your concern is about the road
02:20:18.220being blocked it can't be the road being blocked because it's still blocked to
02:20:21.300stay by the government you you have heard or you're aware of the evidence given at this inquiry of
02:20:29.060of the racial slurs the intimidation the threats against ottawa residents and public officials
02:20:37.060and the blaring high decibel horns at all times of day and night during these demonstrations in
02:20:42.900ottawa you're aware of that evidence correct i'm aware of the allegations and i'm also aware of what
02:20:48.020i experienced which was canadians particularly immigrants of all ethnic backgrounds um coming
02:20:55.940together in a very peaceful respectful way with a deep concern about what the federal government
02:21:01.060and governments were doing to their rights and freedoms i'm just talking about those particular
02:21:05.220allegations right now okay yes as a lawyer you would agree that those are not protected
02:21:11.460as a form of free speech or action under the Charter?
02:21:18.200No, I don't know that I'd agree with that.
02:21:20.140You have to be very contextual specific.
02:21:23.360Our free speech rights are very broad.
02:21:26.500And just to say that someone made some vague allegation of racism
02:21:36.300is not enough for me or anyone else to make a reasoned conclusion.
02:21:40.780You agree a hate speech has been codified in the criminal code, right?
02:21:45.720Yes, and I find the Prime Minister's hate speech towards unvaccinated people and saying how do we deal with these people deeply troubling.
02:35:22.680I believe so. I think that's the name of the company.
02:35:25.500and uh apparently that company is now under investigation by transport canada for carrying
02:35:31.980unvaccinated people on that flight are you aware of that uh that was the allegation by ctv and my
02:35:37.820understanding is uh an investigation was commenced but no action was taken okay and who originally
02:35:45.500offered to pay for the flight was that mr borgo um i'm not as i testified earlier entirely clear
02:35:52.300on who was offering i don't remember it to be borgol it might have been take back our freedoms
02:35:58.940i believe there was a couple of people and as i explained we had this pattern where people would
02:36:03.420come forward and say oh we'll look after this we'll look after that and it didn't happen there
02:36:08.220was some uncertainty as to whether or not we were even going to be allowed to get on the plane but
02:36:13.900the justice center said this is too important get on the plane we'll sort this out later okay
02:36:18.940Now, before you got on the plane, I understand from the interview summary of Mr. Eros that there was a virtual meeting or a Zoom meeting on or about January 31st, whether it was yourself, Andre Mamari, Brian Peckford, Tamara Leach, and himself and Joseph Bourgo. Do you recall that?
02:36:39.380Uh, it was on the evening of the 1st. Um, it was the reception they had in the hotel was
02:36:47.620terrible, terrible. They only heard probably a third of what we talked about. Mr. Bogle was not
02:36:54.940on that. Um, there was a doctor with a British accent, a very nice man. I can't remember his
02:37:03.040name. Um, and Mr. Peckford was most definitely not on that call. Was not? Was not. Okay.
02:37:09.380Was there another virtual call with Mr. Borgo and yourself and Mr. E. Ross?
02:37:16.000I have never had a virtual call at any time in my life involving Mr. E. Ross and Mr. Borgo ever.
02:40:53.960I don't, but I have confidence in you.
02:40:57.280If that's your memory, then I'll accept that.
02:40:59.960Okay, I won't go further down the road of the different arguments that were made.
02:41:03.020But then on the continuation of the injunction a week later, as you remember,
02:41:07.100that became a bargaining point with the city.
02:41:09.540You were offering to the city that perhaps your clients wouldn't oppose the continuation of Ms. Leeshorn injunction if they did certain things.
02:51:32.500It wouldn't surprise me, but I wasn't aware of that.
02:51:34.820Were you involved in those movements, Western separatism?
02:51:37.020I was never, I've never formally been involved in those movements.
02:51:41.940I have been very concerned about the merits and the fairness of our confederation.
02:51:48.220But seeing, as you've heard, and I saw it myself, a Quebecer with a Quebec flag running towards an Albertan with a cowboy hat and an Alberta flag and embracing, seeing a Quebecer trucker who could not speak any English with a trucker from elsewhere in Canada and where he was from who couldn't speak any French.
02:52:14.720and they were using Google Translate in a Tim Hortons to communicate
02:52:18.020and they were laughing and getting along.
02:52:20.540It restored my faith in the future of our country.
02:52:24.700So just the last person I wanted to ask you about while you're talking about French,
02:56:21.660Yeah, James Botter. There was a number of times where they were preparing a press release to distance from the MOU, or they were going to add it to a paragraph of a letter.
02:56:32.020But if you've ever drafted by committee, you know that everybody wants their peace and certain things get left out.
02:56:38.200But I think they made it pretty clear that they did not support the MOU, and nor did they support, and they were very concerned about any innuendo of violence from Mr. King.
02:56:48.240Right. So speaking of violence, you indicated that at the time you sort of advertised on TikTok that people should come to the city.
02:56:57.940It was your view that that was because it was a lawful and peaceful protest in Ottawa. Is that fair?
02:57:04.040Yeah. And it was more than that, because one of the things that I I mean, I'm a I'm a lawyer, but I'm also a dad.
02:57:11.100and my wife and I have four kids, and it was remarkable to me meeting many of the families with younger children.
02:57:20.200I mean, five, six, up to 12, 14, and the amazement on their face.
02:57:27.560They're interacting with all these different truckers of every ethnic background and other Canadians,
02:57:32.980and the excitement and the pride was really historic.
02:57:38.280and I commended those parents for having their children learn from this
02:57:46.800and participated in an experience at first time.
03:02:03.400so he was the one we were trying to think of wording that could go out to
03:02:11.040confirm the deal was still going ahead and he decided that he would play the
03:02:16.420tweet as though the reporter had made a mistake and I think he says something
03:02:20.920like nice try so and so we were talking about the federal mandates the deal to
03:02:26.620move trucks tomorrow is going ahead can we just scroll down a little bit please
03:02:30.940sure and if you keep going down I think you just passed it no I want to I think
03:02:40.440if you keep going down sorry right there yeah so this is Dean French saying it
03:02:45.760was posted two hours ago and no correction yet so it does take some time
03:02:50.820right for the for the tweet to get corrected I recognize there may have
03:02:53.720been some inner workings going on but it takes at least a few hours for that to
03:02:57.920get corrected is that fair yes okay I can't dispute that I can't remember I
03:03:02.720know that we were able to correct it around it was either 10 58 p.m. or 11 02
03:03:10.640p.m. Dean had strongly recommended that we correct it get to the bottom of it
03:03:16.860figure out what happened correct it in advance of the 11 o'clock news hour
03:03:21.920shows and I moved as quickly as I could to get to the bottom of it because I was
03:03:27.020completely blindsided by it and there is i won't take you through the whole exchange just to save
03:03:31.740time but there is a an acknowledgement from mr french where he's saying it's it would have been
03:03:36.460nice had it occurred prior to the 11 o'clock news so would you agree that it didn't get corrected
03:03:41.580prior to the 11 o'clock news is that there was many times where mr french and mr peckford said
03:03:47.660oh it would be nice if you could do this and you and i was like i don't think you are appreciating
03:03:52.300the dynamics of this environment it was extremely chaotic would it be fair to say that through this
03:03:59.340text exchange and i i can walk you through it if if need be but to save time um that mr french
03:04:04.780was expressing concerns um about the impact this tweet would have on the legit legitimacy of the
03:04:10.940deal publicly as was i i was shared those concerns yeah i was uh i received feedback from a lot of
03:04:18.700the people i was around that they were they were struck how calm i was most of the time there was
03:04:24.460one notable exception where i was arms flailing yelling likely swearing and a very loud voice
03:04:32.540when i was like who did this and what just happened here i was very because i and others
03:04:38.540had worked very very hard to get us to this point we had the logistics meeting at city hall with
03:04:44.380With IOT and the city manager and Drummond, we had a report heard back that the trucks were ready to roll.
03:04:52.060Some of the guys were packing up some of their gear.
03:04:54.800And I was like, oh, my goodness, we've come this far and we're going to get sabotaged.
03:04:59.580And you would agree that because of that miscommunication, it would have created a lack of clarity to those following that account about whether there was or there was not a deal.
03:15:53.300They were placed on the windshields, and I saw that was the calm before the storm.
03:16:00.260so it was the thursday the thursday there was a ceremony at the war memorial that i attended along
03:16:06.260with my wife and i remember stopping and reading the warning that if you didn't leave um i'm going
03:16:15.620by memory uh that your um you would be ticketed your vehicle would be impounded and i can't recall
03:16:23.060else what else it said okay now you had you told us you had involvement with the plt uh police
03:16:30.340liaison team members were they on ottawa police service and opp that's correct okay any other
03:16:38.340police officials that you dealt with face to face or was it exclusively plt
03:16:43.540um i had interactions with with uh chance meetings with other some opp and other
03:16:53.760police they were extremely friendly uh very cordial very non-threatening uh but in terms
03:17:01.120of any you know official formal interactions it was the plts okay thank you and of course your
03:17:07.360your role evolved as you tried to provide the convoy organizers with the illegal strategy or
03:17:12.880input into their strategy from a legal perspective and advice to achieve their objectives is that
03:17:17.360fair yes your your contact with protesters um i think you told the commissioner just to clarify
03:17:26.560these are these are independent operators yes it reminded me of the ranchers in alberta yes
03:17:33.760indeed and you you told us that they came here and i'm not going to say every single one but
03:17:39.680would it be right for the commissioner to understand that those protesters who you
03:17:44.160encountered came here to ottawa as part of the convoy intending to protest for the weekend
03:17:50.640but were inspired to stay as a consequence of their of the response that they observed from
03:17:57.600canadians as they came here and once they arrived i think they were inspired and they felt charged
03:18:05.760with a new responsibility to ensure the protest was successful a responsibility they didn't realize
03:18:15.520they would be invested in them when they set out however i do know having reviewed the evidence
03:18:24.720that in every instance that i have seen miss leach was clear
03:18:31.760that at no time did she say we're leaving after the weekend i believe she said we're going to
03:18:38.900stay until the mandates are lifted right in the independent operator protesters though
03:18:44.020do you agree with me that because they are that they if they're not on the road they're going
03:18:49.840backwards financially right correct and so would it be right i understood your evidence to mean that
03:18:56.280the protesters the independent operators leaving aside the organizers and their message that the
03:19:02.940protesters were invested in a in a shorter protest than they were inspired to commit to once they
03:19:10.560got here is that fair do you mean the opposite of what you just said independent operators who
03:19:17.960came here weren't intending when they when they
03:19:24.440let me start over again the inspiration that you've spoken about
03:19:30.280that is that that acted on them to stay here and protest longer than they would
03:19:35.640have originally sat yeah i i thank you um and i wasn't
03:19:39.160trying to be unfair to you um i had a number of truckers say to me
03:19:44.440that they originally planned as you've already heard from mr barber you know to be in the convoy
03:19:50.600for a day take join it for a certain distance and then turn around and reverse course home
03:19:56.600and then they found themselves in ottawa and found themselves in ottawa for a long prolonged period
03:20:01.560yeah that's part of that synergy of growth that occurred and you you told us that there were some
03:20:07.880challenging members even in among the the top group of the leadership group you've called mr
03:20:13.240king i think in your statement a rabble rouser who who was at least if not encouraging violence
03:20:19.160tolerant of violence yeah and i mean i i think he he was very angry and frustrated and really
03:20:26.360wanted to fight hard to get the government to change course and not all of us um use the same
03:20:32.920approaches mr dichter was undermining the leadership i i or at least in part yeah i've
03:20:41.000just never been able to understand mr dichter i mean and the other thing is that he wasn't there
03:20:45.880that much because firstly he had left early before i arrived uh in late um january and he had a car
03:20:56.520accident i believe near kingston and then he returned on the friday the 4th of february and
03:21:03.720then early that evening at approximately 6 or 7 p.m as he was leaving the front door of the swiss of
03:21:10.520the ark hotel he fell and badly broke his ankle so then he was away at hospital for a period of time
03:21:18.200then he was restricted to his room because he just had a wheelchair and crutches then he had to go
03:21:22.840back for some surgery so he was he was out of the loop a lot right and then mr bowder you've
03:21:28.760described the mou was was not helpful to to the main strategy you were the organizers were pursuing
03:21:35.160fair a distraction and false hope now that meant all of it in the aggregate in addition to the
03:21:42.360independent minds of the independent operators that controlling this entire group was very
03:21:47.480challenging it was impossible and uh one of the things could i show you please just to see if this
03:21:53.560quote is accurate uh in in hrf please register 1379 just while that's coming up uh mr wilson
03:22:04.280that you i think you gave an interview to mr lawton who has published or was publishing a
03:22:10.360book about the events of the convoy do you recall that that's correct can i just ask you please to
03:22:15.240to look at this and just maybe to the top just to orient the witness um just a little higher there's
03:22:22.360an email i think there we go do you recall seeing this yes could you please um go then to um i think
03:22:33.960it's page five there is a quote attributed to you i just want to make sure that it's right there it
03:22:39.640is um and for context that mr morazzo had also spoken about some of the the events and the last
03:22:49.160line of that part see at the top no one could force the truckers to do anything they didn't
03:22:53.800want to do and you seem to have agreed in that to say we don't control them we don't even know who
03:23:00.280they are no one signed up it's not a curling bonds feel it's not a golf tournament and you
03:23:07.480made the comment that you can't simply tell them have what to do fair comment yeah and that's why
03:23:12.600we had to use other approaches of moral suasion of leadership of recognizing their fatigue
03:23:23.000um recognizing the desire of many to find a graceful and respectful way a proud way to get
03:23:30.920back home and the the ottawa police service in your interaction with them um expected and
03:23:37.880reasonably expected that a peaceful protest a lawful protest would be held in their community
03:23:44.120fair i have to assume that to be true and the unlawful you raise the issue with my friend mr
03:23:49.720Leon, about the when did it become an unlawful protest, and you've answered this question to others, I won't dwell on it, but certainly you would accept that the blocking of municipal roads, the violation of noise bylaws, and other forms of what might loosely be described as harassment as part of that demonstration would be a challenge for police in confining the protest to a lawful protest.
03:24:20.300Well, if you and I, and I mean you and I, happened to be walking down Wellington on February 10th and we were having a chat lawyer to lawyer,
03:24:35.760I don't think we would conclude that you and I were breaking the law by walking down in front of Parliament, you know, on the sidewalk of Wellington Street.
03:24:43.440so this was the challenge is that you had individuals who were who i had told consistently
03:24:50.460when they asked you know of course you can't park your truck there and i always used
03:24:55.180the analogy to the 401 which they got yeah i wouldn't be allowed to do that this is no different
03:25:00.740uh but for this potential i really wouldn't get into it most of them about officially
03:25:05.480induced air because they were told to park there and then they were barricaded in place
03:25:08.780um so it was this weird mix where you had people lawfully in my view walking mingling shopping
03:25:21.320interacting some showing signs some not some just wanting to take it in
03:25:27.780with others who were breaching various parking bylaws and you know municipal ordinances and
03:25:34.620provincial statutes and just a couple of quick things and mr commissioner the the in it on top
03:25:39.900of that you also faced the challenge of some i think in your statement you may describe them as
03:25:45.980strange people who had descended into the pro into the protest often in the evening
03:25:51.820often on the weekends some sovereign citizens um others who were um i think you may have labeled
03:25:59.740them troublemakers that was a challenge for the convoy organizers to deal with of course constantly
03:26:06.460and challenging obviously for police and residents yes and there was a good cooperation there you
03:26:12.460know when that was the rule so everybody had a block captain and if an antifa was going to show
03:26:17.500up the rule was you phone the police you call 911 and the frustration for us was the next day you
03:26:26.300You know, three people from Antifa came in and vandalized trucks.
03:26:29.420The next day, the police chief or whichever one would hold a press conference and say,
03:26:32.920last night we had three charges for property damage in the downtown core.
03:26:37.920You closely watched the signals coming from all levels of government,
03:26:44.140including the police services board here in Ottawa and the chief slowly, correct?
03:26:48.800Yeah, our most acute concern was the level of pressure we saw building on the police slowly
03:26:54.500from the police services board that's what motivated mr morazzo uh to take a series of
03:27:02.280steps to cause the city meeting to facilitate um some action to reduce pressure including through
03:27:11.000your efforts with mr french to avoid what i think in one of your text message to him was
03:27:15.960a bloodbath yes and the first one though was to it was two distinct strategies one was immediate
03:27:22.320acute which was the pressures we saw on slowly before he he was no longer chief and the other
03:27:27.920one was a broader exit plan thank you mr wilson thank you okay thank you uh next is the ontario
03:27:37.040provincial police good afternoon commissioner the opp the opp have no questions today okay thank you
03:27:45.360the ccla please uh good afternoon commissioner eva krajevska for the canadian civil liberties
03:27:55.760association uh mr wilson just briefly um were you still on the ground in ottawa when the financial
03:28:04.800institution freezing orders started to come into effect um yes just to be clear um there was three
03:28:14.080instances related to freezing that i was dealing with before and no random order just off the top
03:28:20.560of my head the earliest one was the threat of an interpleader application by td bank through their
03:28:25.920external counsel the next one was the ex parte order obtained by the attorney general of ontario
03:28:32.800under the criminal code declaring the donations proceeds of crime then the next was a um freeze
03:28:40.560order of sorts and then we had the emergency measures the financial measures and then after
03:28:49.760that we had the mariva injunction okay i just want to ask you about the financial measures under the
03:28:55.360emergencies act yes can you just uh did people come to you from the freedom convoy and ask you
03:29:03.200for um advice with respect to the orders and relate to you how they were affecting them and
03:29:09.920Can you just provide a, if they did, could you just provide a summary of how the orders were affecting them if they came to you to speak to you about that?
03:29:18.360Every one of them did in real time, and they were finding out at different times.
03:29:22.800I still remember one of them coming to me and saying, I just got a phone call from my wife.
03:29:38.900because now the conveyor is full with the next person's groceries.
03:29:43.460And then she tried her Visa card and her second credit card and none of it worked
03:29:48.720and she had to leave the store in great embarrassment
03:29:51.080and phoned her spouse and said, what is going on?
03:29:55.320We had other people that were trying to put gas in their vehicles and couldn't.
03:30:00.040There was more than one instance where people needed to get prescriptions filled, could not.
03:30:05.300um and then subsequent to that um as we work to get the freezes lifted and reach out to the bank
03:30:15.160we developed this template email to write to the bank to ask the bank to respond to us
03:30:21.020as lawyers miss chipiak and i um then we have received reports since and as to very recently
03:30:28.600that a number of these people even though their bank accounts were unfrozen sorry mr commissioner
03:30:34.340I just realized how fast I was speaking.
03:30:37.580After their accounts were frozen, have been denied credit applications,
03:30:43.160and I have explained to my clients and others who contacted me
03:30:48.220that the Canadian Bankers Association representative who testified before the House committee
03:30:55.280said that each of these persons will have their accounts, their names marked, flagged for life.
03:31:04.340thank you mr. Wilson those are all my questions thank you Commissioner thank
03:31:09.020you okay convoy organizers any questions we have no questions sir thank you any
03:31:18.840re-examination yes just two points mr. Wilson in response to my friend mr.
03:31:27.680McKinnon's questions about whether you were referring in that email to the
03:31:34.700Federal Emergencies Act I believe you said that someone had heard from some
03:31:42.560MPs that it was under active discussion yes we'd heard it a number of times over
03:31:49.760the course of the week prior do you recall who was telling you that no it
03:31:55.960have been someone coming into the operation center that had heard from an mp uh i remember hearing
03:32:02.920because i would say well what's the source and it was some mp and i can't remember i don't believe
03:32:08.440it was indicated as to which party whether it was the liberal the democrat or conservative mp but
03:32:13.320it was i guess there was strong rumors over in the parliament that it was active under active
03:32:19.880consideration and in response to my friend mr. champs questioning you about
03:32:26.840the injunction I think you acknowledged that you you did oppose the initial
03:32:33.500application yes can you help me with this I understood from your evidence
03:32:40.100that your clients had been concerned for some time about the the horn going yes
03:32:47.180And I believe you said that they took their own action even before the injunction.
03:32:54.860The truckers had agreed amongst themselves, and this is in the transcript and represented, I believe it was in an affidavit actually, before the Superior Court in the injunction application that they'd put in this informal protocol of being silent between 8 p.m. and 8 a.m.
03:33:14.860Justice McLean, on the Saturday application, had suggested the parties consider agreeing to maybe allowing one hour for horns during the noon hour.
03:33:24.780But when we returned on the following Monday, that was something he wasn't interested in entertaining.
03:33:31.660And so can you tell us, if there was this concern, why was it that you were opposing the injunction?
03:33:46.520Wouldn't it have been consistent with your client's views to have an injunction and stop people blowing their horns?
03:33:55.760The board was split. Other members and some of the truckers felt that it was something that they shouldn't be restricted other than the agreement they had for night quiet from being able to blow their horn.
03:34:13.940and they thought it was part of their right of protest.
03:34:16.240So there wasn't unanimity in the client group on that point,
03:34:22.700and the instructions that I and Ms. Chipiuk received were to oppose it,
03:34:27.620now that Mr. Champ has refreshed my memory.
03:36:59.680The commission is in recess for one hour.
03:37:03.660Okay, so Tom Aratso will be the next witness.
03:37:08.080I think Keith Wilson did a fantastic job of answering all of those questions.
03:37:12.180And it seemed as though the opposition lawyers, you know, the lawyers for, I have no idea how Chief Slowly has standing to actually have a voice in this.