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00:00:30.000daryl thank you for doing this i we must think of you every two weeks we should call daryl cooper
00:00:39.760so but we try to keep it to once a year because you live so far away and i'm just grateful you
00:00:43.100made this effort and i just have to say not because it simply because it vindicates me but
00:00:48.220because it's such an amazing and wonderful fact that you actually are literally measurably
00:00:52.200america's most popular and important historian that's just a fact which is incredible and gives
00:00:58.100me hope because you do like five hour podcasts on you know things that happened a hundred years ago
00:01:05.500in granular detail and you know there are a million and a half people listening to that it's
00:01:08.820like this country is not lost so anyway thank you so much always a pleasure we were uh speaking at
00:01:15.620breakfast about how the iran war started and you were putting it within the context of how western
00:01:23.460nations, European nations, fight wars historically and why this was different. Can you recap what
00:01:32.200you were just saying? Sure. I mean, I think that when you look back at the period of limited
00:01:37.840warfare in the 18th and first half of the 19th century, that was really one of the pinnacles
00:01:45.560of not just our civilization, but human civilization in general. You know, war is something
00:01:51.080that is sometimes necessary sometimes interests conflict and you have to fight over it but to be
00:01:56.840able to arrive at a place where you can treat your enemy with respect even in defeat um is really an
00:02:04.440amazing accomplishment and you start to see the breakdown of that over the course of the 20th
00:02:09.760century of course the first world war uh but even still there was a sense of you know what's the
00:02:17.220what's the saying that um hypocrisy is the tribute that virtue pays to vice right um we still had to
00:02:24.680pretend you know we still had to come up with stories to tell ourselves so that we could go
00:02:29.040to sleep at night we hadn't given up on those values completely and what are the values fair
00:02:35.200play yes uh the idea that even somebody who uh you have to put bullets down range at is a human
00:02:44.060being and deserves to be treated as a creature of God. These are things that became very deeply
00:02:50.760embedded in our social consciousness and as individuals as well. So that again, even as
00:02:56.920those values started to fade in practice, we still held onto them in our hearts.
00:03:03.960And I think a lot of people today, or well, I should say maybe a few years back, just a few
00:03:11.340years ago, if you talk to your average American soldier in Iraq, for example, was actually
00:03:19.020If you look at Iraq, I have a lot of anti-war libertarian type friends, you know, and they're
00:03:25.320very strident in their views sometimes of American militarism.
00:03:28.760And I always tell them like, look, when you compare, there were incidents in the Iraq
00:03:33.980war, no doubt about it, in the Afghanistan war where soldiers got out of hand.
00:03:38.200But when you compare their behavior, the level of discipline and honor that they displayed in those wars relative to any previous conflict in American history or world history probably, let alone in a really vicious insurgency like they were fighting.
00:03:56.080This was not a conventional war, especially in Iraq. The enemy was vicious on a level that is, you know, hard for most people, I think, in our society to really even believe. And yet our guys continue to treat the people that they were, who were under occupation with dignity and respect by and large.
00:04:16.360And they really did have the idea that they were there to try to help these people and to free them from this, you know, again, whether we agree with that or not, they believe that.
00:04:25.540And if they hadn't believed that, they would not have been as willing to risk themselves and their friends the way that they did.
00:04:33.720I mean, we took a lot of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan because we refused to do certain things that we could have done much easier.
00:04:41.180We could have done in ways that would have killed a lot more of their civilians, but preserved a few of our soldiers' lives.
00:04:49.400And that, you know, it's unfortunate because over the course of the war on terror, and I think largely in more recent years due to our just compulsive need in our political discourse to find ways to rationalize everything that we see the state of Israel do, it's forced us to really compromise on a lot of those values.
00:05:16.500because there's just if you don't compromise on them then you have to condemn what's going on in
00:05:20.240gaza right exactly and and so we've lost a lot of that over the course of the last few decades
00:05:24.980we've been poisoned and polluted by it i had this dark thought um i think i mentioned this to uh
00:05:32.160our friend scott horton a while back how you know back in 2004 when abu grebe happened or when the
00:05:38.840when the photos came out you know again i don't want to downplay i was a very dark chapter of
00:05:46.340obviously um but it wasn't saddam hussein power saws and you know uh screwdrivers in the eyeball
00:05:53.900kind of torture it was sort of more of a more of a psychological its severity was was less than a
00:06:00.560lot of things that happen in the world yes and yet people saw those photos and they were horrified
00:06:06.600by them and they weren't just horrified by look what we're doing to those people they asked
00:06:12.020themselves, what are we doing to our own people here? Like, what are we making our kids do in
00:06:17.200this place? What is happening here? And nowadays, I don't know if people would blink if they saw
00:06:22.840something like that. I mean, they do see something like that on a weekly basis, come out of Gaza,
00:06:26.840often posted by, you know, Israeli soldiers themselves. And people have to find a way,
00:06:32.060it seems, they have to find a way to rationalize and justify that stuff. And so to do that,
00:06:37.180they've compromised their own most deeply held beliefs about what it means to be a civilized
00:06:43.380person. And so when we go into Iran, I'll never forget when Donald Trump was entertaining the
00:06:50.580prime minister of Japan. And he mentioned, you know, the secrecy and the sneak attack that we
00:06:55.300started the Iran war off with. And he kind of made that sly joke about you guys understand that sneak
00:06:59.960attacks, right? And I mean, for the president of the United States to compare the way we just
00:07:06.220correctly in my view compare the way we began this war to the day that shall live in infamy
00:07:13.260and to think back you know to the to the to the to pearl harbor and and how they felt about that
00:07:20.620at the time how we still feel about it now and then if you imagine that the pearl that the
00:07:25.500attackers at pearl harbor had just happened to blow up a school full of little girls i mean it
00:07:30.700would be on page one of every history book that talked about that incident to this day right it
00:07:34.940Because it's something that offends our basic sense of decency and honor.
00:07:39.320You don't launch a sneak attack in the middle of negotiations.
00:07:42.880That's just not the way European civilization has conditioned itself to behave over the years.
00:07:50.280But we've compromised that stuff in very recent years, I think, to the point where the cognitive dissonance became so great that we either had to change our ways or we had to just give up on certain values.
00:08:02.320And I unfortunately think that, you know, we've, at least our political class has gone the wrong direction on that.
00:08:10.560You know, our guys out there, our soldiers and Marines, they're, you know, it's always tough for me.
00:08:18.060Because, like, I don't like a lot of the actions that they're forced to take overseas in service of things that I think are beneath them.
00:08:25.900um and yet i know from personal experience that the guys themselves those are our best people
00:08:34.260and they're often criticized by people who are not fit to tie their bootlaces i agree you know
00:08:39.220and um and those guys if you give them a good reason they will go fight they will they will
00:08:45.640risk their own life unnecessarily to avoid the possibility of harming an enemy civilian
00:08:55.900But when you remove that sense of honor, you know, that it's been on every recruiting ad and recruiting poster going back as far as you can imagine, when you tell them that we're going to launch a sneak attack in the middle of negotiations on a much weaker country, we're going to threaten to end their civilization and destroy their civilian infrastructure over a war we started for reasons that nobody's really bothered to even articulate to the American public, it becomes much more difficult.
00:12:21.180Right. And, you know, that's something that only emerges under conditions of strong organization, leadership, internal discipline, and really just the organizational aspect of it, right?
00:12:37.100You look at World War I, for example, absolutely savage war where we were spraying cans of
00:12:43.100raid at enemy lines just to choke people to death with gases.
00:12:46.520Horrible, horrible exterminationist war, but one that was almost entirely restricted
00:13:01.080And when you see in Eastern and Central Europe, immediately after the war, same people who just fought this relatively organized, relatively disciplined war from 1914 to 1918, when all the empires broke down and the states fell apart and organization went away, you saw a descent into chaos and madness that's straight out of ancient history books.
00:13:28.800where, you know, wars became exterminationist
00:13:53.320just this is something that I've really been trying
00:13:55.360to convey in my World War II series right now
00:13:57.480Because I think very difficult for most Westerners to really picture the trauma that this would cause.
00:14:05.480I mean, when I was talking to my friend Jocko a while back and he was describing how they'd be fighting in Ramadi and it's just an insane gun battle, mortars going off, explosions, gunshots going everywhere.
00:14:18.440And so they would kick down a door, take cover inside of a building and it's somebody's house.
00:14:23.420And like, there's the wife and the kids are hiding under the table and like, that's what's going on.
00:14:27.020you have this flash of like, oh, wow, this is happening outside somebody's front door,
00:14:32.260you know? And so back after the First World War, when the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian
00:14:37.780Empire, and the Russian Empire, so basically everywhere from the Rhine to Vladivostok,
00:14:43.040the government just disappeared. All of them. In the course of about 18 months or so,
00:14:48.280all the governments disappeared. There's no police to call. There's no government to expect
00:14:53.380to come in and enforce order of any kind, you really saw a complete descent into primitive
00:15:01.340sort of human tendencies as people started to really focus on their immediate survival
00:15:06.060as opposed to, you know, things that we would associate with civilization, meaning that,
00:15:11.260you know, the idea that you're living historically and are part of a chain of being that stretches
00:15:19.080out long before you were born and will continue long after you're dead.
00:15:22.320There's certain things that you're expected to uphold as you steward, you know, through these 70 or 80 years of your existence.
00:15:31.380When it's your turn to steward your civilization, there's certain things that you're expected to uphold and make sure that the next generation inherits them just as you inherited them.
00:15:39.660When all that falls apart and your time horizon collapses to this afternoon because you're looking at your kids and there's no food and they're hungry and their, you know, bellies are bulging and their cheeks are sunken in, there's not going to be anything on your mind except for how do I feed my children.
00:15:57.320And when people's horizon shrinks down to that level, it becomes something very close to animals.
00:16:05.880And that's what you saw happen immediately after the First World War in a lot of Eastern and Central Europe.
00:16:11.900And so this is something that, you know, from a basic level, you can think of a lot of things like this where if you're the only person behaving this way, then it really makes no sense.
00:16:27.220and you're just going to end up nailed to a cross.
00:16:29.400Like, that's what's going to happen to you.
00:20:09.080this was maybe it must have been 2019 or early 2020 just before covid because it was everybody's
00:20:17.340talking about the election that was coming up and i remember uh one of the kids on the ship
00:20:22.100was 17 years old you know his parents had to sign on the dotted line to let him uh get in at under
00:20:28.08018 years old and it hit me this kid wasn't alive when 9-11 happened which means for his entire life
00:20:35.460And I mean, the people who are going to go out and protest, these are 17, 25-year-olds traditionally, right?
00:20:40.640All of that entire generation, we've been doing this stuff since as long as I can remember.
00:20:45.900You know, Abu Ghraib, they probably, that was something they learned about in a history class because that was something that was, you know, they were three or four years old.
00:20:54.660And, you know, this is one of the real issues with prolonged, protracted war is the degradation of the spirit of the societies that are engaged in it.
00:21:03.200You know, if you look at any conflict that's been really long running, the Israelis and the Palestinians or the Israelis in the, you know, the surrounding region in general, the Balkan Wars, for example, go to the Balkans today, you meet Serbs.
00:21:21.500It was not that long ago that they were fighting an absolutely savage war.
00:21:27.280I mean, at the bottom level of, you know, of human conflict.
00:21:31.080And you say, well, how is this even possible?
00:21:32.960It's like, well, because when you're engaged in a conflict for that long, you know, you're fighting a conflict your parents were fighting and their parents might have been fighting that the hatred that is necessary to keep a conflict like that going over time.
00:21:48.980It just it comes to define who you are in important ways until you get out of that conflict cycle.
00:21:54.280And, you know, I think that is comes back to what I said about Abu Ghraib a minute ago.
00:21:59.960I just, you know, people would have protested if we had opened the Iraq war in 2003 by killing
00:22:06.700150 little girls. People would have had a problem with that. They wouldn't have overthrown the
00:22:11.840government. They wouldn't have necessarily, you know, forced them to stop the war or anything
00:22:14.920like that. But people would have had a problem with it. And people, public officials would have
00:22:18.220felt the need to explain themselves. But when that's all you've known, and, you know, anybody
00:22:26.200under really like 30 years old at this point this has been their entire lives um it's not as shocking
00:22:33.140it's just how the world works as far as they is that why israel's been able to ethnically cleanse
00:22:39.120the territories gaza most of all without anyone or a political class saying anything about it
00:22:45.760it's definitely one of the reasons and and you know it's why there's i think there's a uh
00:22:51.060there's a a tendency among really strong uh american zionist elements uh who you know and
00:23:00.280by strong i mean the people who this is sort of their first and only issue or at least their
00:23:04.160bottom line there are many of those um there's been a push to sort of to sort of desensitize
00:23:10.880people to that kind of thing and to place uh here's a perfect example when you were on i believe
00:23:18.380it was your interview with Rogan and you said the outrageous, just insane thing that maybe we
00:23:25.380shouldn't have nuked a couple cities full of civilians in Japan. And of all the things that
00:23:29.620you said in that interview, that was the thing that people were just so angry and so outraged
00:23:34.060by, right? Because the minute you start asking those kinds of questions, that attitude carries
00:23:39.640over into the modern day and you start judging decisions that we're making now according to,
00:23:43.580you know these very human standards and um but absolute standards like it's always wrong to
00:23:49.340murder civilians right no matter who does it and you know if if because look the the bottom line
00:23:55.420is for all of the uh influence and power that the zionist lobby has in the united states
00:24:00.560if americans saw what was going on with the palestinians and did not approve of it demanded
00:24:08.180an end to it they would have to stop that's the bottom line and so it's a strategic imperative
00:24:13.780for them you know for people like to corrupt people so completely yes that they don't even
00:24:18.980care that they're paying for genocide yep and just to rot the souls of the host nation so
00:24:23.900thoroughly that it's like no that's fine it's a strategic imperative yeah okay
00:24:27.520boy what a cost to us to them too they might not know it but to them too what do you mean
00:24:36.300And, you know, the corruption, it corrupts the heart of the corrupter, you know, just as much.
00:24:43.740So, you know, they suffer from it as well, even if they don't know it.
00:24:47.660I think that's, I think that's, I try to keep that in mind.
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00:26:43.820and chewy fudge with a chocolatey coating swing by a gas station and get an oh henry today oh
00:26:50.440hungry oh henry wash so where does this war go i should just say for those who aren't familiar
00:26:58.380with your bio you spent 20 years working for the defense department 10 active 10 as a contractor
00:27:03.100i think that's right working a lot of the time on missiles and missile defense so would say you're
00:27:10.300literally an expert on that subject and our munition stock is like a big factor in how
00:27:17.500this goes going forward so where does this war go do you think you know it's hard for it's hard
00:27:23.860for me to imagine we were talking about this beforehand about how i'm always just hopelessly
00:27:29.000naive and optimistic when it comes to all these things i was the guy of you know full admission
00:27:34.880before the russian invasion of ukraine who was being like no i don't think they'll do it that
00:27:39.700would be crazy that's i said that and then unfortunately same thing as we were building
00:27:43.720up all of our munitions for this attack on iran i was the one saying i just doesn't make any sense
00:27:48.740You know, just from a technical standpoint, from a logistical standpoint, this doesn't make any sense because we're not going to invade Iran.
00:27:56.980Iran knows we're not going to invade Iran.
00:28:04.160And so, knowing those things, there are just certain limitations to what we can do in a standoff war.
00:28:10.640meaning a war where we're mostly launching munitions from outside of Iran's borders
00:28:15.720for fear of their own air defense network and flying our, you know, our own manned aircraft
00:28:21.780over them. And also, you know, our strategy has changed over the last, you know, over the course
00:28:28.080of the war on terror, we have this very strong dependence on unmanned drones, you know, the
00:28:33.940Reapers now, the Predators famously in the Iraq and Afghanistan war, where, you know, we've come
00:28:39.860to rely on them to a tremendous degree, but those things are not, those are not stealth platforms.
00:28:45.880You can't get real close with them. What you can do is launch long-range standoff weapons from far
00:28:50.500away, but there's only so much you can do with these things. People have this idea, I think,
00:28:55.160like if a missile hits this building that we're in, that's going to be really bad news for us.
00:28:59.920The people across the street, they'll probably be fine. This is not, you know, these things are
00:29:03.800not nuclear weapons, like a Tomahawk missile. You remember back when, in the first Trump
00:29:08.640administration when he launched those tomahawks at that syrian airfield because they supposedly
00:29:12.960use chemical weapons yeah he wants something like that was a lie i think we know yeah yeah
00:29:17.540um he wants something like 80 tomahawk missiles at this airfield and it was back up and running
00:29:22.620a week and a half later i mean these things are not massive payload because they got to fly 600
00:29:27.400miles or something to get to the target right so a huge portion of it is just the rocket fuel
00:29:31.320to get it there and so the payloads are 500 pounds maybe you know a little more or less than that
00:29:37.280Which is, again, if you're in the building, that's bad news, but you're not going to level a civilization, as Donald Trump keeps threatening, using standoff weapons like that.
00:29:46.680And so, knowing that and having a rough idea, it's been a while since I've been in the game, but having a rough idea of what our stockpiles are, of what's involved with, you know, fighting a long-distance war like that, where our bases that are in theater are under assault and mostly not usable.
00:30:03.600um it makes the logistical element extremely difficult i was describing to you how
00:30:08.780if you have a say a destroyer which is our primary air and ballistic missile defense platform and
00:30:14.040also the platform from which we launch our tomahawk missiles you know and we have
00:30:18.000submarines as well but uh but mostly destroyers and cruisers and more destroyers and cruisers now
00:30:23.800um maybe you know you've got 128 missile cells some of those are going to be intermediate range
00:30:30.180anti-aircraft, anti-cruise missile, SM-2 type missiles.
00:30:34.560Some of those are going to be tomahawks,
00:31:29.960You know, you don't have a supply ship that rolls up and gives you another magazine of missiles to pop in.
00:31:35.360You got to go back to one of the very few bases around the world where we've got large stockpiles of those missiles and the facilities on base to reload them.
00:31:43.400And it's hardhats and cranes, and it takes multiple days just to do that, let alone the time.
00:34:15.880We never had any of our budgets looked at, anything like that.
00:34:18.260And we were very, because we placed a very high priority on it.
00:34:22.440And so from a technical standpoint, we knew it was very difficult to shoot down a ballistic missile.
00:34:26.740And about a week or so into the war with Iran, you know, I'm watching all these videos, just crazy, like the footage we get out of these wars now.
00:34:36.140And you'll see a ballistic missile coming in and you'll see a volley of two, volley of four, or two volleys of two go up.
00:35:35.020It's like, well, yeah, but you're shooting 10 interceptors at every one of them.
00:35:38.200And so, you know, you're shooting it down, but at what cost?
00:35:43.560And, and when that started to happen, then I realized that this thing is way more irrational than I even thought at the beginning. And there's no way that this can be a protracted war because we just, we just don't have that many. And we don't have a defense industrial base that allows us to sort of ramp that up real quick. You know, this is something, these, these systems nowadays are so proprietary and so specialized in high tech. You know, you can't, it's not like World War II where you can tell General Motors and Ford to start making tank parts.
00:36:11.200This is something that even if you had the budget put aside, even if you had all of the resources you needed to build five more factories, we don't have the personnel to man those factories.
00:36:23.840We would have to get people that we have now to train up an entirely new workforce to build these things.
00:36:30.660Just something that would take years under the best of circumstances.
00:36:34.600And so, I mean, honestly, I was surprised that it lasted as long as it did, especially since I know from people that I speak to on a regular basis, good friends of mine who work in the Pentagon, that at the highest levels on the uniform military side, at least, they were perfectly aware of the problems.
00:38:40.360800-685-5696 or visit AmericanFinancing.net slash Tucker.
00:38:46.260And so, I mean, the whole thing has been, you know, it's been a disaster not just for our relationships in the region. It's been a disaster just in a much broader strategic sense because, you know, if you go, you look at Afghanistan, you look at Iraq.
00:39:07.080people say we lost those wars and granted we you know what we found out in those wars was not that
00:39:13.400the u.s military is incapable of achieving military objectives we found out it's not the
00:39:19.680best tool to fight a counter an embedded counterinsurgency yes fine um but i promise you
00:39:25.360that the russians the chinese all of our potential adversaries out there potential peers they still
00:39:31.480looked at the united states and they were like yeah but i don't know in a real war like we just
00:39:36.420don't know what they can do now everybody knows everybody knows the sheen is off um they know what
00:39:43.460our not just our our political limitations are but what our technical and actual capabilities are
00:39:49.920and that's going to reverberate as countries start to start to adapt their own geostrategic
00:39:55.420posture to what they now see are our genuine limitations how long can this go on
00:40:04.080i mean it kind of depends right like the um there seems to have been a shift recently
00:40:11.800where iran realized it's how it looks just for me as an observer that iran kind of realized um
00:40:19.280that they were getting played a little bit by allowing things to die down in a tit for tat
00:40:24.100while we kind of catch our breath and let oil prices go back down and let bond yields fall a
00:40:29.460bit. And then we start again and they launch some in return. But then when we stop, they stop,
00:40:34.940kind of letting us set the pace and set the terms. It was, I had to laugh. I mean, it's
00:40:40.400obviously none of this is funny, but a week or so ago when Iran launched those missiles at Jordan
00:40:45.720and they were like, it was a sneak attack, this dastardly sneak attack. I'm like, is there a
00:40:50.820ceasefire that I'm not aware of right now? We're in a war. And so it seems like they've adjusted
00:40:56.140a little bit to not letting us set the terms and set the pace to the extent that we had been before.
00:41:02.280And so if we had been allowed to just continue to do that, a tit for tat on our own terms at our
00:41:07.020own pace, I mean, we could probably, we could probably, from a pure military standpoint,
00:41:13.200not talking about global oil reserves and stuff, we probably could have continued it for quite
00:41:19.240some time. If the Iranians, as it seems now, are wise to that, and they say, no, you're not going
00:41:24.380to get a break and rebuild your interceptor stockpile while you do it you're gonna continue
00:41:30.060to spend those things and um then then i mean things are gonna come to a head very quickly
00:41:38.640you know and i say that with trepidation because it's so you know our system unfortunately like
00:41:46.720the bravest thing that Donald Trump could do is to admit this was a mistake, pay some restitution
00:41:55.040to those girls' families, and get out of there. Stop doing it. This thing was, that would be an
00:42:01.680incredibly brave thing to do. It would honestly, like, go a long way to making up for a lot of the
00:42:06.360things that he's done that I don't like. I would be amazed by it. But our political system is just
00:42:15.320not structured in a way that that's really even a possibility and so if we are backed into a corner
00:42:21.400where we're running out of stockpiles and the iranians are aware of that and they're not going
00:42:26.440to take their foot off the gas pedal because they're afraid that if they do you know that
00:42:30.900we're never going to stop that we have to be forced to stop um that we could you know take
00:42:36.740this to places that that i think even most hawks uh who are in favor of the war um would probably
00:42:43.800be uncomfortable with it's obvious to it has been obvious to me since day one that this was moving
00:42:48.140toward a nuclear exchange i just thought that from the very beginning the really dark part about that
00:42:53.420though is it's not an exchange well exactly sorry that's just a phrase yeah yeah but that's how dark
00:42:58.960is that even well i don't know we're assuming that there would be no response i mean there are a lot
00:43:03.580of other players in this right beyond just iran there are a lot of countries with nuclear weapons
00:43:07.540including pakistan and you know there's a lot could happen but the use of nuclear weapons for
00:43:13.040the first time in 80 years like i thought that immediately do you think that's a possibility
00:43:19.360man um for well i'll say it's certainly a possibility for the israelis um that's what
00:43:30.780i'm talking yeah it's it's really hard for me to imagine the american government doing it but again
00:43:35.800i'm i'm always caught off guard by everything no matter how many times i've been beaten over
00:43:39.720the head with a lesson so um it really depends i put i put it this way i think if the israelis
00:43:45.940thought they could get away with it if they thought that they could handle the geopolitical
00:43:50.100fallout they would have already done it a long time ago oh of course well they've threatened
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00:45:29.960to do it yourself and they can help but i i just think of the consequences of losing this so for
00:45:36.600the united states it means obviously the end of our empire and i mean all kinds of consequences
00:45:42.340that are hard to foresee but it's a huge deal it's like the end of the post-war era and then
00:45:47.220we have to deal with whatever comes next a world run by china okay so that seems like it's or or
00:45:53.520i mean the lesson of this might be that nobody's gonna run well that's exactly right and in the
00:45:57.620eastern part of the world by china which seems natural to me anyway but um because they've got
00:46:03.840a bigger economy than we do so like why wouldn't they control the south china sea i don't really
00:46:07.520understand why we're fighting what's inevitable and if we didn't want that then probably should
00:46:13.140have done something to prevent china from becoming a bigger economy right but anyway
00:46:18.100the consequences are big for the united states but for israel what are the consequences of losing
00:46:23.680this i'm just trying to be empathetic the consequences of losing this for israel and this is
00:46:28.780um you know this is a reason that a lot of the hawks over there sound as crazy as they often do
00:46:34.900these days um i mean it could be could be the the the thing that sets the ball rolling toward the
00:46:42.080conclusion of that whole project well exactly you know um israel has survived for certainly since
00:46:49.4801967 at least on this aura of military invincibility and there are a lot of people over in Israel
00:46:58.020and even now I mean Israel has trouble holding on to it even before all this started up Israel has
00:47:03.240trouble holding on to its people you've been to Israel we love going to the old city and things
00:47:07.480like that but you go around and you know it's there are nice parts of it for sure I like going
00:47:12.740to the Baha'i gardens and you know in Haifa and but in general the only nice part of Haifa is the
00:47:18.460party that was there before 1948 sorry and so um you know uh it's it's much nicer in um you know
00:47:28.120paris or london or new york or something put it that way well or dubai riyadh or abidabi right
00:47:33.540and so um you know there's a lot of people i think who this was a big concern of the
00:47:38.860israeli leadership after the 2006 hezbollah war which they also lost um it was not necessarily
00:47:46.080that our enemies are going to see this
00:48:14.460The people who think that maybe Israel is going a little bit too far in Gaza, few as they may be left over there these days, but the people who we would consider somewhat moderate, people who aren't prepared to die in their apartment from an Iranian missile because Netanyahu decided to start a war, those are the people who are going to leave, which means that the people who are left behind are going to be more and more concentrated crazy.
00:48:41.140And non-productive, who don't work and don't serve in the military.
00:48:45.160And the people who do make Aliyah and travel there, you know, it's just, I mean, you see this, I guess, in like, it's kind of similar to, you talk to a lot of like Orthodox and Catholic converts, and they're all just deus vault, you know, just holy war, kind of just, you know, really like thinking in these big grand historical, like cosmic terms.
00:49:07.620Whereas you talk to somebody who grew up as an Orthodox or Catholic and they're thinking about the relationship with Jesus Christ and like, you know, that kind of thing.
00:49:14.120And you get this sort of thing like you go out into the West Bank and a lot of these settlements and it's a bunch of guys from Brooklyn and they're crazier than the craziest Israelis.
00:49:24.740They moved from America to go out to live in this hostile territory.
00:49:28.520It's like naturally that's who you're going to get.
00:49:30.420And, you know, as the society becomes a more and more concentrated version of that, then the stakes really do get raised.
00:49:39.100You know, what happens when you remove the last people who were against the first use of nuclear weapons from Israel because they go live in New York or London?
00:49:49.060I mean, then you start to get, you know, a real problem.
00:49:51.900I mean, you see this with, like, so shocking for Americans over there.
00:49:55.200There's so much of what goes on over there that I think for Americans and Europeans, it's so far outside of our understanding of how human beings behave toward each other that people just don't believe it.
00:50:07.900They assume it must be exaggerated or propaganda, but I mean, justā
00:50:11.720Yeah, they're not really raping people with dogs in their prisons, right?
00:50:14.560Right, and having, you know, high cabinet ministers celebrating it and defending the rapists, you know?
00:50:21.420I mean, Ben Gavir, essentially the equivalent to Marco Rubio in our system, he's the leader of the Jewish Power Party, and he cites over the years, and he's defended this position many times, that one of his heroes, Baruch Goldstein, the mass shooter who killed dozens of innocent Arabs back in the early 90s.
00:50:43.760And so it would literally be as if the Secretary of State was a leader of the White Power Party and had repeatedly said that Dylann Roof was one of his heroes.
00:50:53.560And when you get to a place where your society is perfectly fine with something like that, you have to imagine sort of the consequences that spill out in other areas, maybe beneath the surface that you're not seeing.
00:51:08.440Like they blow up the Temple Mount and then launch a nuke against Iran.
00:51:12.120But I guess the reason I've always thought it was a possibility is because Israel can't lose, as you just said.
00:51:22.540They've spent so many years hyping the threat against them falsely, telling stories to themselves and the rest of the world about how they're just one moment away from being eliminated.
00:51:35.100But now it feels like it's getting closer to true.
00:51:37.980yeah and not militarily wiped out necessarily and driven out of there but i think it's something
00:51:44.120that could collapse under its own weight you know if you were to go back to the earliest days of
00:51:49.500zionism and tell most of the people who were embracing the ideology back then that you're
00:51:54.960going to get your state but here's what it's going to require and here's what it's going to
00:51:58.820transform you into it would have lost a ton of support i mean it took a it took a long time and
00:52:03.200And a lot of effort to even get much of the Jewish community around the world to support Zionism in the first place.
00:52:11.500I mean, it was primarily just an Eastern European movement.
00:52:14.240The German Jews, the French Jews, most British and American Jews.
00:52:18.700It took all the way up until the 1930s before they started to come around to it at all.
00:52:23.040If you would have gone back then and told them that this is what it's going to entail, this is what it's going to take from you, a lot of people wouldn't have supported it to begin with.
00:52:31.380And so when you have this edifice that is built on the kind of brutality and requires really the, not just the hard things to be done in war, but really to keep it going over time requires the population to take on a persistent mentality of paranoia and hostility the way we've seen taken root over there.
00:52:53.020Something like that becomes, you know, it goes back to what you were saying about the effect that it has even on the corrupter.
00:52:58.840I mean, that becomes oppressive on people and it becomes something that people are not as interested in defending.
00:53:16.300George Kennan, when talking about the Soviet Union, he said something like, I won't be as eloquent as he was, but it's the privilege of every paranoid man to eventually prove himself correct.
00:53:27.880and it's because when you believe everybody's out to get you you interact with everybody as if
00:53:34.620they're out to get you and then eventually they get tired of it and they're out to get you
00:53:37.740that happens with every cult every honestly every like nascent nationalist movement we saw this
00:53:44.920after the first world war to go back to that you saw a lot of these emergent countries the polish
00:53:50.300for example um the czechs you see with the ukrainians now especially since 2004 when you
00:53:55.860have this newly birthed sense of nationalism you're you feel like you're under threat you know
00:54:01.360you were just under an empire for centuries you might be under an empire again if you're not
00:54:05.200ready for that threat and there's this real real uh sense of of paranoia and hostility toward
00:54:12.920outsiders that kind of holds the national community together and most of those other
00:54:16.780countries stabilized to a point that that you know it didn't become it wasn't necessary any longer
00:54:50.780is that for so many Jews, not just in Israel, but in the diaspora, the definition, here's a perfect
00:54:59.500example of it, actually. There was a Gallup poll or a Pew poll a few years back where they polled
00:55:04.440American Jews and asked them, what is the most important aspect of Jewish identity? And it was,
00:55:10.780you know, belief in the Torah, affinity for the state of Israel, various moral values and things.
00:55:17.760far and away the number one answer like 70 percent was remembering the holocaust which is
00:55:24.060another way of saying you know when you when you when you consider like the jewish understanding
00:55:27.840of the holocaust it's not the way the armenians understand the armenian genocide where this is
00:55:33.000something that the ottoman empire the turks did to us this is the culmination of what mankind has
00:55:38.540been doing to us for thousands of years since you know the pharaoh and all the way on up through and
00:55:43.260then it culminated in this thing so when you say remembering the holocaust what it really means is
00:55:47.700remembering what they have done to us and when that becomes when when 70 something percent of
00:55:53.960you know your entire population are answering that as the primary um the the primary fact
00:56:01.360that that that is constitutive of their identity there are going to be consequences to that and
00:56:07.000how that identity develops and how you relate to the rest of the world and you know it's something
00:56:11.540how do you feel about people who hate and persecute you well i mean i know how i'm supposed to feel
00:56:17.320but how do human beings right right no christianity offers us a way out of this
00:56:22.480which is a true blessing but but human instinct all human not just jews or israelis or
00:56:30.080ottoman turks or armenians like everybody feels i think instinctively if someone hates me
00:56:37.680and threatens me i hate them back i want to hurt them hatred and anger they make i want to shoot
00:56:43.480the home invader they make you strong when you feel weak they make you um feel brave when you
00:56:50.160feel vulnerable you know they're useful emotions but when they become again constitutive of your
00:56:55.140identity and the basic building block of your relationship with other peoples then you things
00:57:01.740become sort of self-reinforcing you know and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time
00:57:06.880and when you have like look i mean when you look at what happened to the jews in world war ii
00:57:11.920it's easy to understand why there's a lot of collective trauma that has been that has been
00:57:17.480passed down and is you wouldn't expect people to be just over it right um just because a couple
00:57:22.720generations i agree with that but that also doesn't mean that it's it's healthy for them or
00:57:29.900anybody else you know you can say like uh they say you're not paranoid if they're really out to
00:57:34.640get you and it's like well the thing is like no you still can be pathologically paranoid even if
00:57:40.240they are out even if there is something worth fearing out there being pathologically paranoid
00:57:45.060is still bad for you still has really negative effects on yourself and your relationship to the
00:57:50.160rest of the world i was talking to uh um say a common friend i won't say i won't say who but
00:57:57.900a common friend and uh we were he's jewish and but but not um zionist and not religiously jewish
00:58:05.720he grew up jewish and um he mentioned that when he was a kid there was a period of time
00:58:11.640where he was afraid to take showers he wouldn't take showers because his parents had drilled into
00:58:17.000him the story of the showers in auschwitz and stuff there was an interview a few years back
00:58:22.440uh with winona ryder when she made um the tv series of that philip roth book um plot against
00:58:30.440america or plot against the united states um where she said that when she was a little girl
00:58:35.720She's a privileged American actress, you know, that when she was a little girl, there was a period of years where she wouldn't sleep in her bedroom.
00:58:43.720She would sleep with the lights on in the hallway right outside her parents' door because she knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that one day her neighbors, the parents of her friends, were going to break down their door and drag their family off to be murdered.
01:04:09.840It became really clear that this was not organic at all, that the Israeli government and the U.S. government obviously knew this was happening and basically both governments were using mass migration as a weapon against a government that they don't like for various reasons, mostly because it's anti-Israel.
01:04:31.000And people were shocked to discover this.
01:08:25.100So it's really hard for, I mean, when you think about Christianity, like the hardest command in Christianity,
01:08:34.280well, the hardest command in any world religion that's ever been made is love your enemy.
01:08:38.620And so to be able to recognize that somebody is your enemy, that their interests are fundamentally contradictory to yours, and that you have to be prepared to defend your interests, but not allow that to escalate to hatred for this creature of God that's across from you.
01:08:54.000I mean, that's something that, again, is built very deeply into our hearts.
01:08:59.860Even people who consider themselves atheists, I think, to a degree, very often still have that built into them.
01:09:06.960But it's a mistake to think that, you know, to extrapolate that and think that everybody in the world, certainly throughout history, but even today, sees things that way because they don't.
01:09:37.520Yeah, and we have no excuse, you know, for, you know, particular, we can't use particular circumstances as an excuse when he gave us the example and prayed for, you know, the people who were in the process of crucifying him.
01:09:52.200And so we have no excuse, you know, to allow that to build up in our hearts and we have to fight it. And very often, I mean, that is, it becomes one of the, you know, like you can, you can survive a war physically. You can even win a war and still have it do so much spiritual damage to you over time that the victory is hollow.
01:10:14.540I'm from a country that did that, so I'm aware. You end the war by nuking a population and then you never apologize for it and pretend it was the right thing when it's prima facie repulsive. And look what happens to your society when you do that.
01:10:29.480Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's, I think that, you know, the post-World War II sort of post-Nuremberg society that we live in is very much a, I mean, if you look at the effects of our policies and the cultural tendencies that have been imposed, you know, it was much easier, obviously, throughout most of the 20th century to impose cultural norms from above.
01:10:57.820because mass media was still in general trusted by most people
01:11:02.820and it was controlled by very few interests.
01:11:05.800And so we were all sort of sharing the same couple of dreams,
01:11:10.800you know, and participating in the same couple of imaginaries.
01:11:23.140is that for a people to live historically meaning to feel themselves as part of a chain of being
01:11:32.240that stretches back before they were born and and will go on after they live that that is actually
01:11:38.120something that is very dangerous and that is something to be broken down and destroyed
01:11:41.680i'm writing a forward for a book you know this is i always tell people that um you got to read
01:11:46.680you got to read everything you got to read stuff even by people who you know uh all your friends
01:11:52.360or maybe even you think of as, you know, on the extreme side, I'm writing the foreword for a book
01:11:57.660on the Nuremberg system right now by an author, Thomas Sear. And it's, you know, he rocks his
01:12:07.000leather jacket with iron cross, you know, patches on it, walking around the streets of Chicago,
01:12:12.620right? So like most people would think, wow, that's an extreme dude. And he kind of is in
01:12:16.740certain ways, but he's a dude who wakes up with a book in his face, goes to sleep with a book in his
01:12:22.300face and uh reads the entire time in between he's a good writer and a good researcher and
01:12:27.080just a very smart guy he's worth reading he's one of those guys who would not have been available
01:12:32.060to any of us to read um until very recently you know that's one good thing that the internet has
01:12:38.660done it's broken apart that when you say the nuremberg system what does that mean it means
01:12:42.640um well there's a lot of elements to it having to do with geopolitics and warfare but from the
01:12:48.000standpoint that we're talking about right now you know it's this idea that um for people to
01:12:55.520live historically in the sense that i just described it is something that is dangerous
01:12:59.700and to be targeted and broken down and you saw this really on domestic social levels i mean you
01:13:07.240see it i mean it's not as if that left-wing government in spain is not part of the problem
01:13:11.800you know they're definitely clearly are um but here in the united states you know you saw the
01:13:16.120effects of it over the course of the second half of the 20th century, where, you know, you had our
01:13:21.160cities back in the day that were sort of these organic communities with separate neighborhoods
01:13:28.120divided by ethnicity and religion that were not in conflict with one another. They had arrived at
01:13:33.560compromises over the years and ran their cities in an organic way. And people were part of, you
01:13:38.320know, they were plugged into communities that watched them be born and that would watch them
01:13:42.840die and that their kids would grow up in and know that their kids were going to grow up in and they
01:13:46.320sensed themselves as these people you know they understood themselves as part of this living
01:13:51.600community that was going to continue on afterwards so it was important for them to make sure that
01:13:57.040the things they inherited were given to the people that uh that that came along after their period of
01:14:02.840stewardship and um in over the course of the second half of the 20th century i mean it was
01:14:10.740official U.S. government policy, essentially, to use mass migration generally of African-Americans
01:14:17.040from the South as bludgeon weapons to go in and break these communities up and drive these people
01:14:22.360out to the suburbs, drive them out to other areas where, you know, that old parish church that used
01:14:28.740to be all, you know, Italian Catholics, you go drive through there now in Newark, and it's maybe
01:14:34.740some old grandmas who are still there, but everybody else lives 45 minutes away now, so nobody goes
01:14:39.740there anymore and all of those communities were broken up by force very often and through violence
01:14:44.900indirectly um on purpose and it was because they were looked at as something that was potentially
01:14:50.620um you know that that when people are living in a way where they sense themselves as part of a
01:14:57.560larger project the idea after world war ii was that that can and in fact will almost inevitably
01:15:03.580get out of hand and out of out of get out of hand in what way well the way that the the germans got
01:15:11.040out of hand i mean that's you know the idea that they start taking themselves too seriously and
01:15:15.200thinking of their historical mission too seriously and they start to act on it in the world in a way
01:15:19.940that is dangerous to other to others that was that that was the idea right and of course the
01:15:24.980there's only one group at least in the western world that we decided that doesn't apply to and
01:15:30.260it's because they were the ones who were the victims of the Germans so the Israelis the Jewish
01:15:33.840people in general very much live historically and their right to do that and ability to do that is
01:15:40.520you know it you could say it's the the central and primary certainly uh foreign policy but even
01:15:50.500even with a lot of domestic policies mission of the U.S. government and the sort of western
01:15:55.160European NATO system in general it's a central focus of that which is very strange when you
01:15:59.540think about it until you realize that we're living in the aftermath of Nuremberg. We're
01:16:06.940living in the aftermath of the Second World War. And we're probably coming up to the end of that
01:16:11.440cycle right now. I think that we're reaching the point where everybody who was around back then
01:16:16.580is gone. People who remember it directly and who have the real enthusiasm for it that was born out
01:16:23.420of direct experience is probably fading away. That seems to be the historical cycle. Every 80 to 100
01:16:29.480years you know um things blow up again and the crisis and and trauma of that explosion
01:16:36.340sort of shapes the four generations that are alive during that period you know you were either
01:16:41.980a young man who had to deal with it you were a kid who watched your father deal with it you were
01:16:47.020an old man who you know and so as people go through the rest of their lives and they mature
01:16:51.080into the um into other stages of life they carry that with them and it really shapes who people are
01:16:56.800for 80 to 100 years or so and um the second world war at least the myth of the second world war um
01:17:03.520and by myth i don't mean you know that it's a lie that's something that didn't happen but you know
01:17:09.460something that has taken shape in the in the cultural consciousness you know in in a in a way
01:17:15.900that that um that explains to people why things are the way they are why power arrangements that
01:17:23.100exist now are are necessary all of the legitimate and legitimate right it underlies the legitimacy
01:17:28.660exactly and you know i think i said this on the episode that we had that that got us in so much
01:17:35.340trouble but um you said nothing wrong controversial it's i've never in 35 years of interviewing people
01:17:42.360i've never had an interview so mischaracterized with that level of hysteria it was like crazy
01:17:46.500i would tell everyone who barked at me like actually daryl cooper is a very moderate kind
01:17:51.120of liberal-minded man who's like means malice toward no one wouldn't hurt anyone ever like
01:17:56.740what are you even talking about that was crazy yeah it was it was an interesting experience for
01:18:03.560sure i've seen it happen to other people but when it happens to you it's um it's but i've never seen
01:18:08.260it happen on the basis of less yeah and with such a level of anything with such a level of ferocity
01:18:13.960too yeah crazy well it just tells you a hurt dog barks like the lies that have attached like
01:18:19.660barnacles to the World War II story, define our lives and do lend legitimacy to projects that are
01:18:28.500inherently illegitimate and anti-human and harmful. The post-war system is a disaster. I don't know
01:18:34.160if it's a worse disaster than the war itself, but it's certainly a disaster. Completely destroyed
01:18:38.400Western civilization. I don't know if it's fixable. And so I guess if you're one of the rare
01:18:44.320beneficiaries of that monstrous system, you know, you've got a lot at stake.
01:18:50.240Absolutely. And, you know, the World War II narrative is, is one that,
01:18:58.020well, just look at the, look at the response that we had in that episode to something that I said
01:19:03.120that I thought was fairly anodyne. I could have put it in less punitive terms, I guess,
01:19:07.780with a nod to all of my English friends out there. But, but the content of what we were
01:19:13.360talking about was not anything particularly extreme that you can't find in in ajp taylor
01:19:18.800or pat buchanan or something like that um but when you have a a topic a historical topic
01:19:26.060that the slightest deviation can provoke that kind of a response that sends a message out to
01:19:33.520everybody of how they have to handle this topic you know there's this set about with taboos and
01:19:40.240you know forbidden areas that you're not supposed to you don't have to live like a slave anymore
01:19:44.620yeah that's dangerous right right and so but when that happens you're naturally i mean this is gonna
01:19:49.660it's naturally going to be a topic that is just incredibly fertile because you have something
01:19:54.760that is relatively recent history that we have a ton of documentation on that most people still
01:19:59.900know very little about what actually happened and what they do know a lot of it is not true or it's
01:20:06.100Or it's, you know, true in a way that doesn't necessarily prove the point that they've been taught to think that it proves, you know.
01:20:14.440And so, it's, I mean, I figure we probably used to have, you know, we probably used to have similar myths around the American Revolution and things like that.
01:20:26.980But as our demographies changed over time, nobody really cares if you slander George Washington.
01:20:30.540No one ever went to jail for having different views on the American Revolution, okay, just to be clear.
01:20:36.100indeed and so um you know to me look every society we need our myths i agree right um but those myths
01:20:45.720you have to it comes back to what purpose they're serving and there was a period of time throughout
01:20:50.520the 20th century that maybe you could have said the world war ii myth um look there's something
01:20:56.860to the idea that uh really over the course of a single generation we had this moral revolution
01:21:02.900that made it so that you know virtually everywhere i mean you go down to birmingham alabama in 2026
01:21:12.440and you drop an n-bomb in a 7-eleven and it's going to be a bunch of white people in there
01:21:18.080are going to look at you like are you crazy we don't say that anymore like what are you talking
01:21:21.180about and so that's a moral revolution that um in part grew out of the second world war and the
01:21:26.680the myth of the second world war and what it was about um that you would look at and say uh
01:21:32.080you know it was a positive development it's often the way people look at outgroups and things great
01:21:37.540but what does that myth what purposes does it serve now well and what's the fruit of it so
01:21:43.320selma alabama is much worse than it was in 1965 like for the people who for the black people who
01:21:48.540live there britain is much worse than it was in 1945 so is the united states so if the system
01:22:24.240I wouldn't, I don't necessarily love FDR, Abraham Lincoln, but FDR actually deserved a lot.
01:22:31.500But I don't, but I don't want to hear, you know, some Frenchman talking smack about him. So I get
01:22:36.280that. I get it. No, but the point is like you go along with certain things that maybe it's not
01:22:40.900fully true or it's mischaracterized or whatever, but like it's working. It, it inspires empathy
01:22:47.480between people and we get along better. And like, I don't think you should call the fat girl fat,
01:22:53.040actually i think you should refrain from saying obvious things in the service of human understanding
01:23:00.540like i'm not for using the n-word actually just i'm just not i never have i'm never going to like
01:23:05.540i get all that but if obeying the lie pretending to agree with the lie gets you modern britain
01:23:14.460or modern germany or modern america for that matter like why are we going along with this
01:23:19.860this is all like this is what you get when you go along with a lie misery so no is that yeah i mean
01:23:27.500i think one of the one of the things that happened is that it it happened so rapidly really over the
01:23:32.880course of a single generation yes it's the 1960s that yes by the time anybody even realized what
01:23:38.060was going on they found themselves in circumstances that the measures the the severity of the measures
01:23:47.340that would be necessary to correct the error are so great that they violate all of these
01:23:55.040all of these landmines that have been planted in our heads since earliest education you know of
01:24:01.860again to go back to what purpose is the myth serving if you want to do something about the
01:24:06.980fact that your people uh and i'll and i'll speak about like european countries because we have a
01:24:11.800little bit different situation here in america but you know if you go to ireland or someplace
01:24:15.360like that that these are real people this is a people who have existed for thousands of years
01:24:20.620as a as a bloodline as a nation um and they're about to lose their homeland permanently that
01:24:27.020if you oppose that and want to take measures to correct it well you're a nazi you're adolf hitler
01:24:34.300and that's the myth that that's the purpose that that myth serves now along with of course like
01:24:39.400uh legitimizing uh the american zionist empire around the around the world things like that
01:24:45.220whether it's geostrategic and other other purposes it serves but an individual psychological level
01:24:50.780and as far as our own domestic policy and societies it's so powerful that it has convinced
01:24:58.100people to do what by any measure is really the the craziest thing that any people could do which
01:25:03.660is to give up its homeland forever without a fight and to allow their daughters to be raped
01:25:08.060so like the lie that european peoples and americans believe is that all this is about love
01:25:14.400and tolerance but your daughter's getting raped that's not love that's the ultimate act of
01:25:20.420violence and yet that's that's the result of it yeah literally the result sure and you and again
01:25:27.040to go back to the internal migrations in the 20th century after the second world war like in the
01:25:33.320united states and the way that the internal migrations were used to break up these traditional
01:25:39.940catholic parish communities in city after city after city around the country and done so i mean
01:25:46.000we know this from from documentation you know that uh that these this was something that they
01:25:50.800knew what they were doing they knew they were breaking up these communities that they saw as
01:25:54.560pools of like insularity these black boxes that the system itself couldn't really see into and
01:26:00.400didn't exactly know it was so robert moses wasn't just a highway designer is that what you're saying
01:26:04.080No, no. But this was a national push. I mean, this didn't just happen in New York City, you know, it happened everywhere. And when you realize that when you start to see that, and then you start to see what's going on in Europe and now in the United States as well, and you recognize that these are weapons that are being wielded against us.
01:26:26.740They're not something that it's not happenstance. It's not something that's being done because, you know, the labor markets demand it. The labor markets demand it. That's my favorite. It's just the market.
01:26:39.640Yeah, or because we've just sort of, you know, there were certain Cold War strategic imperatives that led to the promulgation of certain propaganda that maybe made some sense at the time that it just outlived its usefulness and is sort of going along on its own power at this point.
01:26:57.780That this is a weapon that's being used against these countries on purpose because, I mean, there's a great little book by a French author, Jacques Ellul.
01:27:09.080He wrote a bunch of great books, but he wrote one on propaganda and how it functions.
01:27:13.380And he has this great section in there on how it seems like at first blush that a mass society and individualism are somehow like, you know, that's oil and water.
01:27:29.320That those are two completely different things when in fact they're the same thing.
01:27:32.200Because when you break up, say, those parish communities and you drive everybody out to the suburbs, everybody's living within their own fence line now.
01:27:41.860They're living in their own fence line. They maybe don't even know their neighbor's names. You have all of these people who are completely isolated and easily homogenized over time. And, you know, they lose their distinctiveness and become and melt into a part of a mass that you can now propagandize on a mass level in a way that, you know, you think about it like if you lived in a parish community back in the 1920s in the United States,
01:28:11.180If you lived in an Irish parish community in New York City and the government was, or the culture, whatever outside force it is, is trying to propagandize you in a given way that your grandfather and your priest and the elders in your community that everybody respects are all telling you is not true.
01:28:39.600And when you break all these people up, I mean, every intelligence agency going back to the Korean War has known that if you want to brainwash people, the first thing you have to do is isolate them.
01:28:50.260And so when everybody's isolated, and yet you can propagandize all of them at the same time in their little isolation, it becomes very easy to.
01:28:58.140And in the 20th century, when the media channels were as controlled as they were, I mean, it was incredibly powerful.
01:29:04.400and you know i the the one of the great hopes that i think even though it was a originally a
01:29:09.920military technology and everything is i don't think that they plan for the internet and the
01:29:14.280reason i think that is because even though they created it even though they created it um and the
01:29:18.280reason i think that though is because when you look back at so many at jfk at all of these different
01:29:25.160things that happened in the pre-internet era a lot of times like you probably had this experience
01:29:29.600yourself you look back on this and you're like this can't be true because they would have covered
01:29:32.700this up right it's like no they didn't even bother no because they had control of the three
01:29:36.780channels and the newspapers and they just didn't have to worry about it i just don't think they
01:29:40.600plan for the internet and so that's why there's a huge a huge scramble to try to clamp it down
01:29:45.520and consolidate and get control of it because it is a leak in their system so that's but
01:29:50.840balkanizing your society and then atomizing it is the key to homogenizing it i think that's such a
01:29:59.240smart insight and that's one of the reasons so much energy has gone into feminism because you
01:30:06.400know the marriage is kind of the ultimate stronghold of that's the ultimate community it's
01:30:10.620the basis of all communities well and family also is the basis of any any uh community that is living
01:30:17.260historically in the sense that i meant exactly have you ever met a happily married woman happily
01:30:22.800married woman who's for mass migration into the united states i mean i think that uh who's for any
01:30:30.160of that program i mean yeah look you'll find you'll find people who are not particularly
01:30:36.000political and so they parrot whatever they think the but in terms of people who have given it any
01:30:40.220thought no definitely not because you know they're and you know it's actually really funny because
01:30:45.180i really think that one of the reasons that this this if you look over the decades right in the
01:30:53.2001950s it would have been impossible to predict the 1960s 1960s probably would not have predicted
01:30:57.780the 1970s things things go in cycles you know there's a sine wave of sort of cultural movement
01:31:02.560that exists but this one has really just gone in one direction for quite some time now and i think
01:31:08.100part of the reason for that is that millennials took until their mid-30s late 30s to start having
01:31:12.360kids and so people didn't become mothers they didn't become fathers for a much longer stretch
01:31:17.060of time and so that that group of people at a much those ideas had much more runway you know
01:31:23.100before people got into that period where they start to rethink things like that because i've
01:31:26.400seen this with um a lot of my friends people who people who i hadn't seen i had this experience
01:31:32.200really powerfully recently good friends but um i just hadn't seen them and hadn't really kept in
01:31:36.480touch all that much for 10 years or so these were the two least political people you could possibly
01:31:42.340I mean, the idea that they would even have an opinion on any political issue would have just been, it just didn't fit at all. And when we met them again, not because I brought it up, they couldn't go five minutes without just all this stuff about their kids' schools and the stuff they're teaching.
01:31:58.780changes your mentality right and so even just the act of getting married i have seen this
01:32:03.820up close a number of times you know young unmarried woman living in a city has a certain
01:32:09.580set of politics that woman gets married to a man she loves and respects boy those attitudes change
01:32:15.900like in about 10 minutes it's crazy how fast that works yeah and when you have people who are
01:32:21.600isolated and whose uh whose time horizon has shrunk down to you know their next fix of whatever
01:32:30.960it is that the cultures managed to addict them to netflix or weed or whatever gambling benzodiazepines
01:32:37.100right um when you do that i mean you can do anything you want with that population because
01:32:41.400this goes back to what we were talking about earlier why did nobody protest when we blew up a
01:32:45.100school because at this point who's we like that's really what's been lost is a sense of being a part
01:32:53.400of a we at all is something that has really been broken down disintegrated and so that allows the
01:32:59.100people who are at the levers of power to get away with almost anything because nobody really
01:33:03.960identified like nobody actually thinks about it sounds like a almost like a you know these days
01:33:08.900it sounds like a 1950s kind of you know slogan or something maybe made sense in beaver cleaverville
01:33:14.320when they say, not in my name, you know, that the government is doing these things in my name.
01:33:57.180And so, you know, I think about, and maybe this is something that only a nerd would do, but, you know, I think about every time I read a history book about ancient Rome or the British Empire or just anything like that, I think about, wow, 500 years from now, people are going to be reading about America.
01:34:11.760and what are they going to read we put the first man on the moon you know uh well now like we're
01:34:18.900shaping it so that they're going to read a lot of like they're they're corrupting the way that
01:34:24.260my country my people are going to be remembered by future generations and that offends me it really
01:34:29.820does bother me and you know i think a lot of people would find that sentiment i know you don't
01:34:34.840but a lot of people today would find that sentiment sort of uh antiquated and uh just kind of silly
01:34:40.640And that's unfortunate because what that means is that you have a people who is no longer living historically. You have a people who are no longer, they don't have the mentality that certain things for centuries, my ancestors shepherded so that they could hand them down to me. And it is my job to steward those things to make sure that the next generation can carry it on.
01:35:00.120the family home into an airbnb it's degradation you know random strangers are like wrecking your
01:35:08.720house that your ancestors built that's how i feel that's what's happening the people renting it and
01:35:13.460it's so much like the bullshit revolution it's like none of the people leading the revolution
01:35:17.360or with power like have any connection to the country at all yeah isn't that something that
01:35:22.820uh really i i often think about how i think nelson rockefeller died in 78 79 something
01:35:48.060But, well, that kind of goes to my point, right?
01:35:50.260Is like, I kind of look at that almost as emblematic
01:35:53.860of the disintegration of the old WASP power structure
01:35:58.740that you can tell i keep track of this subject yeah yeah that like look over the years made its
01:36:04.620mistakes had its faults all these kind of things but had a proprietary sense of this is our country
01:36:10.020this was my father's country and it's going to be my son's country yeah i don't have another
01:36:13.820passport right and they have their they had their hands on the steering wheel even as we had a
01:36:18.200an open system that was self-governed to you know a large degree there were there was a ruling class
01:36:24.220that ruled with a very light hand for the most part that had their hand on the steering wheel
01:36:28.060And when that last generation, after the Cultural Revolution and the Vietnam War, sort of made it so that those people's own children, they just didn't want to do it anymore.
01:36:37.980They just, they lost legitimacy in their own eyes.
01:36:40.400Their own college professors told them they had no right to rule.
01:36:44.140They took their hands off the steering wheel.
01:36:46.620And that ever since then, the American system has really been under the control of whatever organized, highly organized, well-funded minority group can manage to get its hands on the controls.
01:36:56.060And it's one of the reasons, by the way, that, you know, it's really, I mean, if you go from 1948 when the state of Israel was founded up until the late 60s, early 70s, you know, people have this idea that America has always had this tremendous Zionist influence.
01:37:12.300And it's been there at certain elite levels and stuff, but it was never this overwhelming force that we started to see in the last several decades.
01:37:19.340And it was because you had guys like George Kennan, these old WASP guys who saw the big picture and were still living historically, who were like, if these neocons would have rolled into their administration and start barking orders at them, they would have told them to get lost.
01:37:35.020But now that just doesn't exist anymore.
01:37:37.440Everybody's time horizon is their own lifetime at most.
01:37:41.060Most people aren't even thinking that far ahead. And their sense of continuity is completely cut off from the past and future. And so people who are still connected to that sense of continuity, who are well organized and thinking in longer terms like that, who have been able to get their hands on, you know, the helm of the state, they're really just able to make it do whatever they want, even though they may not be.
01:38:08.120We, you know, what we found is that you don't have to be this overwhelming dominant force that controls everything.
01:38:14.940You can get what you want done as long as you're organized and focused.
01:38:19.540And, you know, we've really just kind of seen that.
01:38:21.420That's why the American government ever since really like the 1980s at least, but certainly since the 1990s, has just been sort of this tool in the hands of whatever organized minority is controlling it at the time or at least controlling certain aspects of it.
01:38:37.940You saw this, for example, after the fall of the Soviet Union during the Clinton administration, you know, back in the, I think it was the 94 election, 94, 96.
01:38:49.160Whenever we were pushing really hard for an organization called the Partnership for Peace, which was supposed to be like a non-militarized NATO that was going to include Russia and kind of be an institutional platform for European societies to mediate disputes and just learn to get along with each other and learn to live with each other again and communicate on diplomatic levels, all those kind of things.
01:39:19.940And you had a lot of officials in the Clinton administration who were very much in favor of that.
01:39:24.380But you had another contingent in the Clinton administration that was just irrationally hostile to Russia.
01:39:31.200And when you look at who a lot of those people were, these are a lot of recent emigres or children of emigres from Eastern and Central Europe who just hate Russians.
01:39:46.900And in the 96 or 94 election, one of the two, I can't remember which, the Partnership for Peace basically just fell apart that year because Clinton was worried about the Polish.
01:39:57.220He got convinced, I don't know if this actually would have been a thing, but got convinced that the Polish vote in Chicago and this Eastern, the Lithuanian vote over here was going to be critical to this swing state.
01:40:07.240So he said, well, we have to completely change our entire approach and foreign policy with regard to the former Soviet Union because this tiny, well-organized political minority is, I mean, obviously Cuba is probably the best example of this over a long period of time.
01:40:32.420So the internet is aflame with the realization that the President Sanchez, who runs Spain, is obviously aligned with this replacement project and is a source of a lot of Spain's problems, in my opinion.
01:40:47.100however this specific example of invasion was really the result of larger forces acting on
01:40:57.000spain including the u.s and especially israel and israeli figures including the prime minister
01:41:03.860and his son are basically saying this is what you get we're going to punish you with muslims
01:41:08.860because you aren't you don't approve of the gaza genocide so people are just like what in the world
01:41:15.420is going on this is like dawning on people who didn't know this was happening and has been for
01:41:19.160a long time but spain itself it was i was thinking this this morning has been this kind of battle
01:41:25.980ground for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years it's considered a sort of irrelevant place
01:41:31.580now good ham that's it decent soccer but like spain who cares about spain but a lot of people
01:41:37.600do care about spain and have for a long time hundreds and hundreds of years spain has been
01:41:41.660a place where larger battles are fought. Have you noticed this? Absolutely. And I would say that
01:41:47.800even as the Spanish empire declined over the years and it became something of a backwater
01:41:52.640as the rest of Europe developed industrially, the Spanish were one of the people and to this day
01:41:59.360remain, there's several peoples down along on the northern side of the Mediterranean actually who
01:42:05.640are still this way, who are living historically in the sense that we were talking about earlier,
01:42:09.520where they still know themselves as Spaniards
01:42:39.520And it just becomes a, you know, a kind of a atomized Blade Runner society or something. There's no reason to fight with those people anymore. Who are you fighting with? You know, you might have to put down a rebellion of some kind. People will just, you know, get really antsy or upset, but you don't have to actually have conflicts with those people because what people are you really even talking about?
01:42:59.780And Spain has, you know, has not lost that to a great degree. And if you think about it, I mean, all of the countries that, European countries, that are still insisting on holding on to that sense of who they are, whether it's Spain, whether it's Russia, whether it's Hungary, these are all the targets of the Western system.
01:43:27.340I mean, of the sort of American-led, you know, whatever you want to call it, the global American empire sum.
01:43:37.420Because there's a rational explanation, which you offered before, which is the lesson of the Second World War was when European peoples have a sense of themselves, they're a threat to others.
01:44:17.760When I, as part of this World War II series, even though, you know, it only lightly involves the future Axis powers who, you know, they were involved with the conflict, but that's not really what it's about.
01:44:28.020The episode is really going to be about trying to help people understand how absolutely shocking what was happening over there was to.
01:44:37.520Can you just give us a quick, without taking an hour, but like, what's your summary of it?
01:44:41.760For people who aren't, the Spanish Civil War, so it's 35 to 39, something like that?
01:44:47.380Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there was a very, very, very, the thing that it is sort of most notorious for is the anti-Christian, just absolute zealotry of the Republican and later communist side that came into it.
01:45:03.600And it's something that, you know, when the Bolsheviks took over in Russia, one of the first things they did, this is 1920, I think, so very, very early on, they built a statue to Judas Iscariot in Moscow.
01:45:33.140And it's the same reason probably that people don't know about it, a lot of what happened in Spain in the 1930s.
01:45:39.080I mean, you're talking about, you know, something that can only ā it had the character of what you normally see in history from slave revolts, like in Haiti, for example, where there is just, you know, a conflict driven by abject resentment and hatred for the people so that you ā they were not just raping nuns.
01:46:02.100They were not just masquerading priests.
01:46:03.760They were not just using churches as latrines and pornography theaters.
01:46:33.160And so when you do see something like that happening, I mean, I think it's very hard, especially for people of our persuasion, not to see a spiritual element in there.
01:46:41.680Well, what's the, I mean, first of all, anyone who's ever dug a hole in the ground knows it's difficult work.
01:46:47.600So to dig up a grave by hand is not something that you do because you're bored.
01:46:54.340You do because you're driven by some overwhelming, impelling force, right?
01:46:58.840you're doing things that humans are when you see things that humans um can never justify according
01:47:08.660to their own personal or collective interests but can only be uh justified by some by some
01:47:15.620larger ideological or spiritual imperative then you have to believe them when that's happening
01:47:19.820and well put nicely put and so that's that's definitely true in spain you know for all of
01:47:25.740their um like i would put it this way like i think there's a lot of people out there who see
01:47:31.760those comments from israeli government officials and from netanyahu's son and so forth and think
01:47:37.420that their problem is with the spanish government because the spanish government has a problem with
01:47:41.260what's going on in gaza i don't think that's really what it is i think that the problem is
01:47:46.220with spain and with the spanish people themselves because they're seen as sort of a you know look
01:47:52.440as long as there's one group of people left
01:52:34.040What do you mean intergenerationally? I care what happens to my kids. But this idea of being part of a great chain of being, that there's an organic living community of which you are a part that goes through history as a cohesive unit, even as the individuals that comprise it pass in and out of the world.
01:52:56.720um you know this is something that used to be taken for granted by all humans everywhere in
01:53:02.540the world at least once we proceeded out of paganism and uh that's what's been lost and
01:53:10.220the people who are still out there living that way at least in remnant um have a different
01:53:16.560relationship to each other than they have to the rest of the world that's no longer living that way
01:53:20.980if that makes sense not only does it make sense it's one of the most profound things i've heard
01:53:25.960in a long time i assume you said this before what kind of reaction do you get from that
01:53:32.140well um i would say that the um my audience is fairly curated partly thanks to you so
01:53:41.380they're used to um you know they're used to hearing me talk like that um so the reaction
01:53:47.140is is usually fine but uh i have had the experience from time to time where you speak
01:53:51.900out of class on these issues and usually it's not even hostility you run into a lot of times it's
01:53:57.240just people are befuddled they don't exactly even know what i'm what i'm getting at um which is
01:54:03.360unfortunate because again this is something that it was taken for granted by and then taken from
01:54:09.340people without even uh their knowledge and it's one of the essential things to and george w bush
01:54:15.680who didn't put many things well put it this well and he said everybody wants to believe they're
01:54:20.560living for something bigger than themselves and i and you know the missions that have taken the
01:54:26.620place of living historically of being attached to this larger whole are so small you know liberating
01:54:33.660ukraine okay you know or whatever whatever the you know war on poverty war on cancer you know
01:54:40.200these are i mean i'm against invasions i'm against war i'm against poverty i'm gonna get you know i
01:54:45.040get it but fundamentally they're offering up a vision that is so just like silly and it's one
01:54:52.460of the reasons i feel so terrible for the for the people in ukraine you know your average
01:54:57.420nationalist in ukraine who thinks that this is what he's doing i know but he's serving the forces
01:55:02.560that are actually attacking it and it's just very sad well and of course the you know the very first
01:55:07.780thing the zelensky government did was ban the largest christian denomination and put priests
01:55:11.800in jail so it's impossible not to see the zelensky project which is not ukrainian in any sense
01:55:16.920i think he only learned the ukrainian language something like eight or nine years ago the whole
01:55:21.040thing's absurd but he's the trotsky of ukraine okay fine but it's the same as the french revolution
01:55:29.440and the spanish civil war and and the bolshevik revolution it's exactly the same program it's
01:55:34.720the anti-jesus program and like it always winds up in the same place which was in total destruction
01:55:39.600and misery and the ukrainians are an unusually great people i think just based on knowing a lot
01:55:45.800of them like great people excellent people great culture just good-hearted decent christian people
01:55:52.100and the fact that they're being subjected to this is really sad it is yeah it is the uh it's it's a
01:55:59.600it's a going to go down as a mark of great shame on our country that we had anything to do with
01:56:04.980that whole situation i mean that's a that's an understatement of our involvement obviously but
01:56:09.620it's a terrible shame and you know i i guess i'm i'm really grateful that dostoevsky's been
01:56:16.520my favorite author since i was in high school because it made it so that uh you know when
01:56:20.860i started getting bombarded on all sides with anti-russian propaganda it was just i had an
01:56:25.740immune system built up to it because i already love these people you know anyone who wrote the
01:56:30.300brothers karmazov cannot you know that's not a shallow culture you can say whatever you want
01:56:34.080about russia it's not my enemy i don't care i you know just so strongly agree last question as
01:56:40.760the united states for many reasons including its own sins gets pulled into all of this what's
01:56:48.160happening in europe is happening here maybe even more aggressively we just don't know that but it
01:56:55.360is how how do individuals respond to that this is this is usually not a popular answer um but i
01:57:06.700think that i'm not saying don't go vote in the next presidential election or anything like that
01:57:11.240but um i think that the idea of imposing a solution politically from the high level the
01:57:18.440highest levels is probably i think that's probably a lost game i think we have to start to uh
01:57:24.800we have to start to look very close to us and build out from there you need to focus on your
01:57:29.900family you need to know who your neighbors are you need to i mean because think about like a society
01:57:35.420works best or works at all when each of the concentric circles of concern you know your
01:57:43.360family yes your community somewhere out here is your country um maybe further out is your
01:57:49.420civilization that each one of those concentrics that are further out have legitimacy because they
01:57:55.480nourish the ones that are closer in and that it's those that protect and and nourish you know the
01:58:00.800ones that that are closer and so your community matters because that's the world in which your
01:58:05.700family is able to thrive together you know your um larger political community matters because it
01:58:12.560allows your community you know and so it like that's that's how a society maintains legitimacy
01:58:17.960over time and become something that people are willing to march off by the millions to defend
01:58:22.880if that's what it comes down to um and i think that that unfortunately um again over an incredibly
01:58:30.780short period of time has i mean think about how crazy this is like we went from all of human
01:58:37.140history and i'm not talking about back to the sumerians i'm talking about back to you know you
01:58:42.420know homo erectus basically um people lived in a cohesive coherent community among people who
01:58:50.680knew them and who they knew uh who some of them watched them be born they would watch those people
01:58:56.920die i mean they they lived within a community that they were that they were absolutely plugged
01:59:02.900into as a as a significant part of people lived all of human history that way up until like the
01:59:09.2601950s or 60s. And then we just, in a generation that has completely evaporated so that people
01:59:15.500literally don't know the name of their neighbor that they lived next to for years. And they have
01:59:21.800no, I mean, even worse than that. I mean, their kids leave for college and for the rest of your
01:59:27.400life. You see them once every two years on Christmas because, you know, one year they come
01:59:32.360see you and next year they have to go see the in-laws and that's it. And maybe you hear from
01:59:35.860on the phone once or twice a year that is something that you took something that was absolutely so
01:59:41.780fundamental to being human the social environment that we literally evolved to be adapted to and
01:59:48.180you strip that away from people and threw them out on their own resources and they're expected
01:59:52.540to go out there now and find meaning for their lives and orient themselves in the world without
01:59:56.940recourse to a broader community or even a family and that's what needs to be rebuilt and you're
02:00:04.060not going to rebuild that from the Oval Office or from the halls of Congress. It's got to be
02:00:07.960something that starts some, you know, it's very seductive. People on the right like to make fun
02:00:13.280of people on the left or criticize people on the left for being so, so, so concerned and having so
02:00:19.860much love and concern for people who are far, far away from them. But the people who are, you know,
02:00:25.480right here close to them, they really don't like those people that much. And that is a thing for
02:00:28.940sure but we do that on on the right as well where you have a lot of people who interpersonally don't
02:00:34.980really feel a need to love their neighbor treat their neighbors themselves but even their own
02:00:38.680children who are so concerned about whether um you know the the federal government is being used to
02:00:44.620impose some moral law that they you know that that is important but that you know the far more
02:00:51.080important thing is uh are the things that are within reach start there and build out and once
02:00:58.080you start to do that here's the magical thing about it is once you start to do it you won't
02:01:02.520even have to explain it to yourself it'll be so obvious that this is uh that this is um
02:01:08.120the proper way to do it because what you're doing is you're you're building something that you will
02:01:14.260know in the deepest core of your being is worth defending and um once you've done that you know
02:01:21.940then you've got solid ground to stand on to move out from there and hopefully fix the bigger picture